Podcast Summary
Exploring the concept of honor and its relevance in contemporary society: The conversation between Sam Harris and Tamler Summers delves into the origins and implications of honor cultures, shedding light on their impact on the justice system and personal relationships.
Key takeaway from this conversation between Sam Harris and Tamler Summers is the exploration of the concept of honor and its relevance in contemporary society. Tamler, an associate professor of philosophy and host of the Very Bad Wizards podcast, recently published a book, "Why Honor Matters." He came to this topic as part of his research on moral responsibility and free will, specifically looking into the origins of our retributive intuitions. He was introduced to the idea of honor cultures through the book "Culture of Honor" by Richard Nisbett and Dove Cohen. The authors argued that people in the American South, with their Scottish-Irish heritage, tend to subscribe more to an honor culture than those in the north. The conversation delves into the implications of honor cultures on the justice system and personal relationships. Despite their differing views on the value of honor, both Tamler and Sam agree that the topic is fascinating and consequential.
Exploring the complexities of honor cultures: Honor cultures challenge Western notions of individual responsibility, emphasizing group and family responsibility, and prioritize social relationships, reputation, and loyalty.
The concept of honor, as explored in certain cultures, challenges traditional Western notions of individual responsibility and control. In these cultures, responsibility can extend beyond individual actions and encompass the actions of one's group or family. Honor cultures also place less emphasis on control as a necessary condition for being responsible or blameworthy. This discovery led the speaker to explore the cultural diversity of attitudes towards responsibility and freedom, culminating in the writing of an academic book called "Relative Justice." While acknowledging the potential dangers of honor, such as the potential for violence and a focus on retribution, the speaker also recognizes the appeal and deep-rootedness of the concept. The challenge lies in finding a way to harness the virtues of honor while containing its dangers. The concept of honor is complex and difficult to define, and there is a lack of philosophical work on the subject. However, honor-oriented communities can be characterized by a strong emphasis on social relationships, a focus on reputation and status, and a sense of duty and loyalty to one's group.
Emphasis on personal and group reputation in honor cultures: Honor cultures prioritize reputation and contain conflicts internally through unwritten rules and codes, emphasizing virtues like courage, hospitality, loyalty, integrity, and solidarity with specific groups.
Honor cultures place a significant emphasis on personal and group reputation, leading to a heightened sensitivity to insults and a strong conviction to handle conflicts internally. These cultures have unwritten rules and codes that govern behavior, and conflicts are contained to prevent them from escalating. Successful examples of honor cultures include baseball and hockey, where unwritten rules govern when to seek revenge and when to accept conflict. Honor cultures also value virtues such as courage, hospitality, loyalty, integrity, and solidarity with a particular group, leading to a strong sense of collective identification and tribalism. This tribalism, however, differs from modern usage of the term, as it refers to identifying with actual people rather than political, racial, or ethnic ideologies.
Understanding the attraction of honor communities: Honor communities offer a sense of justice and morality, but can also lead to chaos and dysfunction, requiring the use of force by the state to maintain order.
Honor communities can be understood as tribal groups, where people interact and form strong bonds. The attraction of honor lies in the sense of justice and morality that is often encapsulated in situations where the wrongdoer is punished, such as in "Justice Porn" videos where bullies are confronted and defeated. However, the downside of honor is the potential for chaos and dysfunction, as seen in extreme cases like honor killings, where the perceived threat to a family's honor can lead to violent and tragic outcomes. It's important to acknowledge the potential benefits and drawbacks of honor as a social force, and to recognize that in a civilized society, the use of force must be outsourced to the state to maintain order.
Watching people stand up for themselves against bullies: Valuing self-respect and community respect, recognizing the importance of individual action, and acknowledging the complexities of honor cultures
The satisfaction we derive from watching videos of people standing up for themselves against bullies goes beyond just seeing justice being served. It's about respect, both self-respect and respect from the community. This dynamic is lost when conflicts are handled by impartial third parties. However, it's important to acknowledge that not all situations allow for individuals to stand up for themselves, and in such cases, containment by third parties is necessary. In the case of honor cultures, there's a problem with the lack of restriction on the content of honor norms, which can lead to harmful and unfair allocations of honor and dishonor. For instance, the suspicion or reality of extramarital sex leading to dishonor is a fucked up norm. It's crucial to recognize these issues while also valuing the importance of standing up for oneself and not immediately relying on third parties to handle conflicts.
The Complexity of Honor: Motivation and Human Misery: Honor can inspire good deeds and moral heroism, but its negative effects, such as honor killings, require a consequentialist understanding to contain its perversions and uphold a higher moral norm.
While honor can have motivational benefits for individuals and society, it can also lead to perversions and human misery, such as honor killings. To morally and psychologically value honor appropriately and contain its perversions, a consequentialist understanding of its effects on individuals and society is necessary. This means recognizing that notions of honor that extend to the sexual behavior or misfortune of women, like honor killings, create immense human misery and provide no benefits outweighing that misery. However, honor can also inspire moral heroism and good deeds, and its place should be argued for based on its positive effects. Even in the best possible cases, there is a higher norm to which people with strong honor values would adhere. Ultimately, the goal is to find a balance between the motivational benefits of honor and the need to prevent its perversions.
Experts and veterans avoid physical confrontations: Those with expertise or military backgrounds may choose not to engage in physical fights due to potential consequences, even if they have the means to defend themselves.
People who have a deep understanding of human violence, such as those with martial arts expertise or military backgrounds, often choose not to engage in physical confrontations due to the potential consequences. They have already proven their abilities and have much to lose, including injury, legal issues, and damage to reputation. Even if they have the means to defend themselves, such as weapons, they may still choose to avoid escalating situations and instead dial 911. This behavior goes against the traditional honor codes that promote handling one's own business, but these individuals have already established their reputation and have nothing left to prove. In unfamiliar situations, where there is no community to save face, they may choose to walk away and let the bully have the satisfaction.
Honor and self-esteem in conflicts with strangers: Individuals' responses to conflicts with strangers depend on their honor culture and self-esteem. High self-regard and confidence enable letting go of insults, while a strong desire to preserve face may lead to manipulation.
Honor and self-esteem play crucial roles in determining how individuals respond to conflicts with strangers. Honor cultures, like the Navy SEALs, instill a high ethical standard that values avoiding avoidable conflicts. However, when exported to a more cosmopolitan society, this principle becomes flexible, and individuals may choose to back down from a challenge if they feel secure enough in their self-image and abilities. Conversely, those who easily engage in fights due to a strong desire to preserve face may be manipulated by insults or threats. Ultimately, the ability to let go of insults depends on an individual's level of self-regard and confidence. This principle applies not only to violent conflicts but also to various aspects of life.
Surviving with a Tough Exterior: In certain situations, projecting a tough exterior can help individuals protect themselves, but it's important to avoid a dangerous cycle of norm enforcement and identity swallowing.
In certain situations, upholding a reputation or self-respect can lead individuals to adopt a tough exterior as a means of survival or to avoid being taken advantage of. This behavior, often referred to as a "code of the street," is prevalent in environments where norms are skewed and individuals feel the need to establish a reputation for toughness to protect themselves. However, this mindset can create a dangerous cycle of norm enforcement and potential identity swallowing. It's important to recognize that projecting a tough exterior doesn't always require engaging in violent acts, but rather the ability to handle challenges and insults with restraint. Ultimately, the goal is to establish an equilibrium where one's toughness is acknowledged and respected, allowing them to avoid becoming a victim. This phenomenon is not limited to prison culture but can also be observed in other environments where individuals feel the need to adopt a tough exterior to survive.
The Importance of Honor Cultures in Modern Society: Honor cultures, such as the Navy SEALs, retain values of accountability, collective responsibility, and respect for community. While some use collective punishment instrumentally, true honor cultures believe it's inherent to their values.
While society's progress has led us to leave behind environments that breed survival values such as honor, accountability, and collective responsibility, these values should not be discarded entirely. The military, specifically Navy SEALs, is an example of individuals retaining these values long after they have left the dangerous environments where they were instilled. Honor cultures view collective punishment as a means of upholding family and community respect, but it's essential to differentiate between instrumental and true honor cultures. Instrumental honor cultures use collective punishment to achieve specific goals, while true honor cultures believe it's a just and inherent part of their value system. It's crucial to recognize the importance of these values and find a way to incorporate them into modern, liberal, consequentialist value systems without resorting to instrumental violence or collective punishment.
Collective responsibility shapes moral attitudes and behaviors in intergroup conflicts: Collective responsibility encourages self-policing, fosters group cohesion, and restores balance, but also challenges individual responsibility and free will
Collective responsibility plays a significant role in shaping moral attitudes and behaviors, especially in the context of intergroup conflicts. This notion can be seen in various social structures, such as baseball's unwritten rules or honor cultures. It's not just about punishing individuals or seeking revenge, but also making up for wrongdoings and restoring balance. This sense of collective responsibility encourages self-policing within groups and fosters a sense of justice, ensuring that everyone is accountable for the actions of their members. Despite the potential for negative consequences, such as blood feuds, this norm also has moral advantages and can lead to a healthy sense of group cohesion and responsibility. However, this concept challenges the traditional notion of individual responsibility and free will, adding complexity to our understanding of morality and responsibility.
