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214: People Are Like Houses

A listener once suggested that for a podcast episode I should read from the book I wrote in 2016, THEM- The Richer Life Found in Caring for Others. It’s about relationships, which of course, is what this podcast is about. But I don’t know if reading from it would interest many of you. Maybe the first chapter might, I don’t know. It’s about how people are like houses when it comes to deepening our relationships with others.

But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.

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THEM - The Richer Life Found in Caring for Others

My book THEM has never sold well. Many of them sit on a shelf in our basement to prove it. Two of my relatives I know bought the book, and I offered it to the rest of the extended family as Christmas gifts after it came out. But no one wanted a free and signed copy. I was going to pay the postage, too. Yeah, that was my Charley Brown Christmas alright.

But I did get an award and a cash prize for the book. Writers Digest named it the “Best Inspirational Book of 2016.” However, there wasn’t much competition for inspiration in 2016. It was a lean year in the inspiration department, as you may recall.

Nevertheless, I’m going to take a chance and read from selected portions of chapter one of the book that I think you’ll enjoy hearing, and maybe even find inspiring. It’s about a useful principle that could help you in deepening the relationships in your life. It’s called, “People Are Like Houses.”

People are like houses

I’ll begin with this. Every house has multiple openings. All kinds of openings— windows, doors, chimneys, even clothes-dryer vents. Openings to bring the outside in, or openings to let the inside out.

When you walk past some houses, the resident of the house will see you from inside through a window, open the door and come bounding out to greet you.

“Why don’t you come in and I’ll get you something to drink. Please stay a while so we can chat and get caught up with each other’s lives. I’ve been thinking about you. I have so much to tell you since we last met. It is so good to see you.”

This is how some people respond when we walk past their houses. Such people are wide-open houses with openings that invite you in. They are easy people to engage with—the low-hanging fruit of relationships. It doesn’t take a lot of work to relate with people like this. Me, I get along great with children and older ladies because they are houses with relational openings I can easily pick out. Younger than eight and older than eighty is my sweet spot. With everyone in between, not so much.

Other people are houses with fewer openings. Walk past someone’s house like this and when she sees you from her front window, she closes the drapes, pulls the blinds, and turns off the lights. If you go to her front door and ring the doorbell, she’ll pretend she’s not home and leave you standing there like a rebuffed Jehovah’s Witness.

Closed openings to this house

A number of years ago, the elders from a church in our area called me into a meeting to ask me how they could better care for their pastor, who was going through a rough time. Their question showed me they didn’t know him very well. The better we know someone, the easier it is to care for them.

I responded to their question with, “I think you need to get to know him better.”

“We’ve tried, but it’s hard because he plays it close to the vest. He doesn’t let anyone in,” replied one of the elders.”

His house is full of closed doors and covered windows. The opening to his house is hard to find, but if you work at it long and hard enough, you’ll find it.

“Maybe he plays it close to the vest because he’s been hurt in the past with being more open, and he doesn’t want to be hurt again. Maybe he plays it close to the vest because he doesn’t trust you.”

A few heads nodded, but that’s as far as it went. Some people have closed houses like this. I’m like this myself at times. I play it close to the vest when I don’t trust people either. I close the openings to my house to protect myself, which Christian psychologist Larry Crabb calls the most common sin of us all—self-protection.

Delayed openings

Other people have houses whose openings will close up at first, but who wait to see if you come back, and then if the stars are properly aligned, and they’ve finished watching Dancing with the Stars, will crack open the door and whisper to you, “Now is not a good time, maybe next week. I’m not feeling well right now.” So you leave with a small opening for the future, a little hope.

Still other people, when they see you come by, will call out from the window, “I’d really like to talk, but the baby is napping, and my husband thinks I spend too much time with my girlfriends, so could you please come back tomorrow? Come at night, though, and come to the back door. I really need to talk to you.”

Different houses, different openings

Get the picture? People are like houses with many different openings. Some are wide open, and others closed shut like a lake cottage in the dead of winter. The frustrating thing for me is that I often want to enter a person’s relational house through the opening I want, through an easy opening like the front door. I don’t want to have to come back again and again, or wait until spring. And I don’t want to go to the back door at night. Nor do I want to talk through the screen of the kitchen window, or get on the ground and whisper through the basement window.

But the fact is, if I want to relate well with someone, I have to go with the opening that person gives me, not the one I want. This principle is especially true in caring for others. We can’t care well for people if we don’t know them very well. To care well means at times we have to pursue people and look for openings to get to know a person at a heart level. It’s not always easy, for some people have closed up many of the openings to their house. We can’t give up, though. It’s important that we work at it. For in the end, it’s always worth it.

The openings children give us

These grandsons of ours have also taught me much about how people, even children, are like houses. They open themselves up to us when they want in ways they want—not at the time or manner I prefer.

On the occasions Janet and I have picked them up from school because their parents were away, I’ve wanted to understand how their day went. What did

they learn in kindergarten today? What is going on in their little hearts. I want to know because I love them deeply and want to enter into their world. When I try to get into their “house,” they are often very closed. They pull the blinds and turn off the lights with their favorite response, “It’s classified.”

It’s classified? Please, don’t they know who I am? I’ve changed their diapers, which should entitle me to more than, “It’s classified, Grandpa.” They closed one of the openings to their house I was trying to enter.

I wondered if there is another opening they would give me. There was.

I discovered the opening one night when Janet and I were babysitting and it came time to put them to bed. They got their pajamas on, brushed their teeth, and crawled into bed. I then read them a book.

“Can you read another one? Please? Oh please!”

“I need a glass of water.”

“Where’s my Star Wars guy? I have to look for it. I can’t go to sleep without it! Really, I won’t fall asleep without it!”

Typical bed-time stall routines. I’ve been through all of this many times, but then one night, Grant, firmly tucked in bed with the covers up to his chin, pulled out from his arsenal of sleep-delaying tactics, this question

“Grandpa, are you going to die?”

I didn’t see this one coming

Has someone been talking to this boy? Does he know something I don’t know?

Ironically, his question came eerily close to the question too frightening for all of our family just six years earlier, “Is Grant going to die?” More about that later.

As I sat down on Grant’s bed and looked into his eyes, I could tell he had moved from stalling at bedtime, to a deep metaphysical issue people have pondered for centuries. I was not prepared for his question, nor for such an opportunity to see into his heart. Grant was giving me an opening to his house, and I wanted to take advantage of it. I can’t afford to miss this one, I thought, even though it came at night when I am least alert. But there he was, opening his house to me in a way that worked for him.

As I sat on the bed, I told him, “Yes, I will die someday, but it most likely wouldn’t happen for a very long time.” I went on to tell him that when I did die, I would go to heaven to be with Jesus, where I would wait for him—to join me many years later. I told Grant we have nothing to worry about when it comes to dying if we know Jesus. For if we know Jesus, we will spend forever with Him and with all the other people who know Him.

Grateful for this opening I was invited into

A smile broke out on his small lips that told me he was okay with my answer. He could now call it a day because his question about the destiny of humanity was settled and he could move on. He was comforted, as was I.

“Good night, Grant. I love you.”
“I love you, too, Grandpa.”

I turned out his light, thankful for the opening he had given me to his house, to his heart. We connected at an unwelcome, unexpected time for me. I found with our grandkids some of the most significant conversations I’ve had with them happened at night sitting on their bed, because it is when it is most comfortable for them. It’s when they were the most reflective. I have to be on guard, to be aware, so I can take advantage of the openings they give me.

* * * * * * *

Well there you have it, the “People Are Like Houses” principle from chapter one of my book, THEM. In addition to the two examples of this principle I’ve shared here, there are three more stories like it in chapter one of the book. But we’ve run out of time for today, as you’ve probably finished with folding laundry or picking up the kids from school.

I’ll leave you with two thoughts. I wonder if people you want to understand better are giving you “openings to their house” that you might be missing.

And secondly, are you making it harder on people to relate to you because many of the openings to your house are closed? Are your drapes closed and your porch light turned off? It might be worth the risk to switch the lights on and open a window are two.

Closing

As we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to look a little more closely at the openings people may be giving you into their house.

Because when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

Well, that’s it for today. Don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

213: Five Things to Watch for in Your Next Conversation

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enMarch 06, 2024

213: Five Things to Watch for in Your Next Conversation

One thing on my mind lately is a question about the meaningful conversations we sometimes have with friends, and what makes them different from other conversations. I started thinking about this while reading news articles about the Super Bowl played earlier this month.

Meaningful conversations and the Super Bowl don’t quite seem to fit together, but they do in my mind. Keep listening and I’ll explain the connection in today’s episode, number 213.

Welcome to today’s episode

Maybe they’ve always done this, I don’t know, but it seems that sports journalists lately are using a new format to write about upcoming sporting events. It’s a pattern where the headline states a specific number of things to look for when one team plays another.

Take the recent Super Bowl from a few weeks ago, for example. “Five things to Watch for When the 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs” would be a common headline in news stories. Articles like this help the reader focus on specifics of the game coming up.

This makes me think what if we took the same news approach to analyze the conversations we have with the people close to us. I wonder what that would do to enhance our relationships. Would it make for more meaningful conversations with the people close to us?

I’m going to try this out in today’s episode I’m calling Five Things to Watch for in Your Next Conversation with a Friend

Here goes. First off,

Notice if the topic of conversation with your friend is new or is it one that’s been repeated many times before?

Assuming neither of you are suffering from Alzheimer’s, do you or your friend frequently cover the same ground you’ve gone over many times before? For example, does the topic of conversation drift once again to discussing your body’s aches and pains? My friend Robert calls these “organ recitals.” Or does it go to concern about wayward children? The state of our country or culture? Should I buy brown carpeting or grey carpeting? Things you’ve talked about many, many times before.

Why are some conversations with our friends like this? Is there nothing else on our minds? Are we that shallow?

I don’t think so.

My guess is that people who bring up the same topics over and over again are bound up by the unspoken emotions about those topics. No. 1 on the list would be fear, or one of its cousins, like anxiety. Sadness or regret would not be far behind. They are all close relatives.

We sometimes ruminate over things because we haven’t put words to what we’re feeling about those concerns. Instead, what if we talked about the emotions riding on the backs of the topics we repeatedly bring up and see where the conversation goes? It will be a lot better than going in a never-ending circle we often go around in.

A second thing to look for that’s important to having meaningful conversations is to notice who does most of the talking.

Notice who does most of the talking

There are certainly times where a conversation with a friend needs to be all about them. One person should have the floor for the entire time when they are dealing with a recent loss or some unexpected circumstance. But it shouldn’t be a pattern every time you talk.

I have an extended family relative who is quite a charming extrovert that I only see at extended family gatherings like weddings and funerals. Everyone likes the guy. He holds court with all the relatives and goes on for what seems like hours talking about what’s going on in his life. We know all about him. He knows virtually nothing about the rest of us.

There’s no air time for a meaningful conversation with him. It’s always an interesting monologue from his lips, but there’s no back and forth dialog.

You see the same thing in restaurants sometimes with small groups of people. One person dominates the conversation. And it’s usually someone who talks loudly so you can’t help but overhear what he or she is talking about.

Many times If you look at the faces of those not talking in the group you’ll see blank stares.

In most meaningful conversations people take turns talking and listening. Some may talk more than others, but do they also listen at some point in the conversation? Is there give and take, or is one person giving a speech to an audience?

Here’s another thing to watch for in a conversation with friends.

Is the conversation more about the head or is it more about the heart?

Conversations about facts or events, or little things running around inside our brain, can be very meaningful. I’ve had quite a number of them in my lifetime that center on what I think as opposed to what feel. I think of the conversation I had in my twenties with Vern who was twice my age, and the time I asked him what he thought about a career change I was considering. His simple, “I think you’d be good at that” changed my life.

Then there are the conversations about the heart. For example, there are two topics on the hearts of most Baby Boomers like me that don’t get talked about much. The first is Who’s going to take care of me in my old age when I can no longer care for myself? Who’s going to be there for me? Single people think it’s more of an issue for them. But it isn’t. It’s on the mind of married couples just as much. Will my spouse be up to the task? And my kids, will I be able to count on them?

Another important heart topic

Related to this issue is the second heart topic, Will I run out of money at the end of my life, and if so, what do I do then?

As helpful as conversations can be that come from our heads, those that come from our hearts do a better job of bringing us closer together with each other.

Inasmuch as we have control of a conversation, we do ourselves a favor when we look for and discuss the emotional aspects surrounding the issues of life. Like baby boomers talking about their worries of who’s going to care for me. Who can I trust at the end of my life? Regrets for not saving as much as I could have, or not being able to save anything earlier for my later years.

Here’s another thing to watch for in our conversation with friends.

Be mindful of how many times the topic of conversation changes

The more topics brought up in a conversation, the less listening is going on. Talking a little about many things is not nearly as life-giving as talking at length about one subject.

The “Let’s talk about everything” approach hijacks a conversation by using what someone is talking about as a springboard to share one’s own related experience. For example, if Monica talks about the great vacation she had visiting the Grand Canyon, and Alyssa jumps in with “I was there too, about seven years ago with my family. The best part for me on that trip was….” Yeah, that’s not good. We’ve gone from Monica having the floor to Alyssa taking it away from her.

To keep the topics of conversation to a minimum, notice if people are asking questions, especially follow-up questions. This tends to keep interactions focused. It’s all part of good listening and people refraining from sharing every thought that pops into their heads.

Finally, watch for how the conversation ends.

Notice how the conversation ends

As a conversation begins to wind down, do you end up wanting more, or are you glad to can move on to other things? Janet and I were at a Bible study recently and during a break in the study, we were in conversation with a friend who brought up a podcast she was listening to from John Eldridge. She was talking about how men and women look at Valentine’s Day differently and how Eldridge had a panel of men sharing their views. She was quite interested in the male perspective and how it compared to her own. But then our break ended and we had to return to the Bible study.

But I wanted to know more. I think every meaningful conversation ends with some form of “I want to know more.”

Boring conversations, however, often end with, “Thank goodness that’s over.”

What to do next

So there you have it , five things to watch for in your next conversation with friends. When we get good at noticing the things I’ve mentioned, there are steps we can take to make for more meaningful conversations.

Quickly, here they are:

Don’t bring up something you’ve talked about many times before because you haven’t dealt with the emotions about the issue. Don’t be an airplane circling the airport for hours on end. Land the plane.

Let the other person speak. Don’t be the one who does all the talking. Drop the monologue. Get others engaged. Ask questions. Follow-up questions.

Comment on the feelings connected with the head issues in your interaction. Talk about the emotion. It will make for a more meaningful conversation. What’s on our heart is really important. Don’t ignore it.

Stick to one issue in a conversation as long as possible. Don’t change the subject. Keep the spotlight on the other person. Let them have the floor. They may need to talk more to process what’s on their heart. Stick to one topic. Your turn will come later.

Leave people wanting more. Be intriguing to others. Bring up topics or make statements that engage others. Do what you can to make for a meaningful conversation that others don’t want to see end.

Closing

Well that’s about it for today. I have links at the bottom of the show notes to past episodes related to today’s topic. I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to watch for the things you can do to create more meaningful conversations with the people close to you.

Because when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

As we wrap things up now, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

067: Self-Monitoring How We Listen

094: Self-Awareness Deepens Our Relationships

115: Become More Self-Aware in 2021

Latest prior episode

212: Little Things We Do Matter the Most to People

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135: Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy

enFebruary 21, 2024

212: Little Things We Do Matter the Most to People

The older I get the more I’ve come to appreciate how it’s the little things we do for people that matter most to them. Little things that come naturally for us because of how God uniquely made us,

I’ve got a few stories for you today to illustrate this point. Stories that I hope will inspire you to bless others in ways that are easy and natural for you. But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.

The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.

Today’s episode

If you’re a regular around here you may recall that our most recent podcast episode, no. 211, was my “Men With Waffles” story. Click here if you missed

A Men’s Breakfast Like No Other. It’s the story of how 5 men who each received a waffle maker for Christmas got together one Saturday morning to make waffles for the guys in our adult Sunday School class.

As part of the breakfast they each wrote down on a large sheet of newsprint one thing they appreciated about their wife. I took photos of the whole event, including individual shots of each guy holding the paper describing what they wrote about their wife. Then I made a slide presentation of the photos and showed it to our Sunday school class the next morning. The ladies loved it.

The photo that evoked the most oohs and ahs was of Allen. It’s the one you see at the top of the show notes for today’s episode.

Little things we say can mean a lot

Allen simply wrote, “I appreciate Carol.” As I described in the episode, he was the quietest man in our church. While he was a man of few of words, each one of them counted. I don’t know about you, but I’m drawn to people like this.

While our men with waffles breakfast is so vivid in my mind that it seems like a recent event, it actually took place in March of 2011. So much has happened in the lives of the men at that breakfast since then.

Scott and his wife adopted a child. Randy took a new job that moved him to Pittsburgh. Bill completed his Ph.D. and moved first to California, then to Washington State. Brad finished his Ph.D. and took a job in Kansas, and then later moved to South Dakota for a different job. Gregg retired. Mike also retired and is now caring for his wife who recently suffered a debilitating stroke.

But the biggest change of all happened to Allen. Ten years later.

The day that changed everything

On Sunday, March 7th, 2021 Allen went downstairs to the basement of the home where he and his wife Carol lived, together with their 16-year-old quadriplegic granddaughter Haily who is confined to a wheelchair.

It seemed to Carol that Allen had been in the basement doing some little thing for an unusually long time, so she called to him, “Allen?” There was no answer. She called again. Still no answer. So she went downstairs, and there discovered Allen lying on the floor, having suffered a massive fatal heart attack.

The funeral was held at our church, and I remember going up to Carol in the lobby. But before I could say anything, she began recounting to the people standing around here what happened to Allen on that fateful day a week or so before.

Carol was clearly in a state of shock. What is this going to mean to her and Haily, I thought. Will she be able to care for Haily by herself, given all that Allen did so lovingly to care for and raise their granddaughter? It’s what the whole church who knew Allen and Carol were thinking about. We were all in a state of shock.

Little things we do tell you a lot about a person’s character

In the months that followed I periodically thought of Allen. I would remember watching him each Sunday morning pulling into a handicap stall in our church parking lot and sliding Haily out the rear ramp of their handicapped-equipped van.

He would push her in her wheelchair into church so quietly and with such ease. It was a little thing he did that mattered so much to Hailey and Carol.

So often when I saw Allen doing this I thought, That is a man who loves well.

I never heard him complain about the toll on him and Carol in caring for Haily.I should be more like him. I complain way too much.

Now I have not heard the story of why Haily’s parents were not raising her, but it didn’t matter. Allen and Carol, as her grandparents, have filled in the gap for what is missing in Haily’s life. And at a great sacrifice.

Fast forward to the breakfast I had with my friend Randy at the end of last year and the waffle he ordered. It reminded me again of Allen and our men with waffles breakfast that I talked about in the last episode.

Seeing Randy’s waffle prompted me to go back and look at the photos of that little event, especially the one of Allen declaring on a large piece of newsprint that he appreciated his wife, Carol. I had thought for a long time after Allen died that I should make a copy of that photo and give it to Carol. I had the file for it sitting on the desktop of my computer for at least a year with good intentions to act on my thought. But with pitiful procrastination for actually doing something about it.

Until just the other day.

A little thing in the mail prompted action

I got an email from Walgreens that they were having a sale on photo enlargements. I saw how easy it was to get a print enlargement of a digital photo. So I ordered an 8 x 10 canvas print of Allen wrapped around a 1-inch frame. It’s the photo you see at the top of the show notes. It didn’t cost much at all and it was done in 45 minutes. All I had to do was pick it up at the Walgreen's only a few miles away.

A few days later I put it in a small gift bag and took it over to Carol and Haily’s house. I was a little apprehensive because I thought what if they moved and someone else is living in at the address I had for them? I didn’t want to call or email, so I took a chance and drove it over there.

Once I got to the house I recognized the van Allen used to take Haily places, which made my concern evaporate.

Nobody's home

I rang the front doorbell, but there was no answer, so I went to the side of the house along the driveway looking for another door. At the back of the house I found a door that had a ramp attached to it, which I assumed was where they got Haily into and out of the house. I couldn’t get to the door because the ramp was up about 3 feet off the ground, so I placed the gift bag with the photo on the ramp. It seemed safe to leave it there, as there was no rain or snow in the forecast and surely Carol would find it. So I left.

But then on the way home, I wondered if she would find it. What if she and Haily were out of town? Maybe I should call or email Carol. I tried both, but there was no answer to my call, and I had the wrong email address. This is nuts, I thought. Just let it go. She’ll find it. Move on to the other things you’ve got going.

You never know how the little things we do will bless others

The next day I received a message at 1:35 pm through our podcast website

from Carol. She gave me permission to share it with you. The subject line read “A Thankful Heart,” and the body of her message reads as follows:

Just want to tell you how much you blessed me by such a wonderful act of kindness that the Lord knew I much needed. It has been hard lately, getting older alone and taking care of Hailey alone and trying so hard to be what God would want me to be for such a time as this.

I opened it and sat and cried, but they were good tears. Dale called (that’s one of her kids) and soon we were both crying - thank you so much for remembering myself and Allen. I miss him more than words could convey, he was such a good man. He is missed each and every day.

That wonderful picture will be on my fireplace forever. I was going to call you, but it is hard to talk with the tears that keep coming. It will be 3 years on March 7th, but feels like so long and yet just yesterday. I can't wait to see him again. l pray the Lord bless you both as you have blessed me.~ God bless you, love Carol and Hailey

Then a few hours later on my way out the door for an appointment, Carol called to thank me verbally for the print of Allen. She was a little choked up and through her tears told me again how much she appreciated what I did.

How neighbors remember Allen

Her grief was palpable as she told me several stories from neighbors about the impact Allen had on them. One was from a woman who couldn’t get her snowblower started, and when Allen noticed it he offered to fix it. He went and got the needed parts to get it up and running. After he fixed it she offered to pay him, but Allen wouldn’t accept any money.

Another time Allen noticed a neighbor was having a hard time straightening up a small wall that had fallen in his backyard. “I don’t know what I’m doing,” the neighbor said. But Allen did. So he spent the better part of a day helping the man with his problem, and again he wouldn’t accept any payment for his troubles.

“I like helping people,” Allen told the neighbor.

These two stories are just samples of how Allen blessed others. What were little things to him, these acts of service that came naturally for him, were things that greatly impacted people. Things they were willing to pay for.

I mentioned to Carol that the thing that struck me the most in her message to me was when she said he was such a good man. He is missed each and every day.

Allen and Joseph, father of Jesus

I said that her phrase “he was such a good man” is the way Matthew, the Gospel writer, describes Joseph, the early father of Jesus. He was a good man too. And Joseph was quiet, also. Just like Allen. He was a behind-the-scenes kind of guy, just like Allen. They were both cut from the same cloth.

One of my all-time favorite episodes of this podcast is one I did a few years ago at Christmas, number 135 entitled Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy. It’s about Joseph, and now that I know more about Allen, it’s about men like him, too. I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of the show notes.

What I learned

This episode about Allen has taught me a few things. Here are some of them:

It doesn’t take much to bless others. We underestimate the power of little things to make an impact in people’s lives.
Good intentions don’t mean anything unless they result in good actions.
There are good men out there like Allen. We just have to be observant to notice and appreciate them
We can all be like Allen. Probably not in repairing snowblowers or fixing a fallen wall, but we can use the abilities God has wired into each of us to make the world a better place.
Doing good for others, like Allen did, reflects the image and character of God. It doesn’t get much better than that. It’s a great way to live

I’ll close with an updated version of the main point of episode 135, it’s the one I mentioned about Joseph, the father of Jesus:

A good man is hard to find. But they’re out there, men like Allen often in the background, not saying much. Their character and behavior tell us more than their words. Look for them. Be like them.

Closing

As we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to do something small for someone. Something that comes easily and naturally for you.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. Like Allen did. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

211: A Men’s Breakfast Like No Other

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172: How to Develop Deeper Relationships

enFebruary 07, 2024

211: A Men’s Breakfast Like No Other

A men’s breakfast can be fun and still have a greater purpose than eating and conversation. When organized with a larger objective in mind it can be a great way to bless people and a means to live out the Gospel.

Today’s episode is about my Men with Waffles breakfast and the impact it had on others not even in the room. Especially women.

Breakfast with a friend

A few weeks ago my friend Randy was in town for the Christmas holiday. We used to go to the same church, but his job change meant a move to Pittsburgh. He and his wife are still closely connected with friends they have back in Wisconsin where I live, and they try to get back here at least once a year to see everyone.

Before Randy got to town he texted me and asked if we could meet during his Christmas visit to Wisconsin. It’s always an invitation I cannot turn down. So we got together for breakfast one morning. We caught up on each other’s lives in ways that seemed like he had never moved away, even though it’s been almost 9 years. That’s the way it is with good friends you haven’t seen in a while.

When it came time to order, I chose eggs. Randy ordered a waffle.

This unimportant event reminded me of waffles in a more significant context that Randy and I were part of several years ago. I’ll you about it. It’s my Men with Waffles story.

This calls for a men's breakfast

It happened during the time I was teaching an adult Sunday school class at our church. Randy and his wife Kathy were part of that class. My story picks up after the class took a break for Christmas one year. We resumed shortly after the new year, and at the beginning of that first class of the year, we chatted about how everyone’s Christmas went. It was then we all discovered something unusual.

Five men in our class of about 30-35 received a waffle maker for a Christmas gift. All of the waffle maker recipients were husbands, which to me seemed a high parentage of the class to have received this uncommon Christmas gift. I don’t think any of the wives collaborated on these gifts for their husbands.

Although I did hear a rumor of an unmarked white box car parked near the church one day, selling shrimp, pictures of Elvis on black velvet, and … waffle makers. It’s just a rumor, so don’t quote me on it.

Anyway, here we have 5 guys with brand-new waffle makers. It just seemed fitting that we needed to do something to note this out-of-the-ordinary event. So I talked it over with my wife, Janet, and got her okay to host a men’s breakfast at our house where the 5 men with their new waffle makers would bring them and make waffles for all the guys in our class.

Event planning

We set a date for a Saturday morning that most all of the men could attend. Those with the waffle makers were to bring them and all the necessary ingredients to serve everyone. In addition to waffle batter, guys brought fresh strawberries, whipped cream, sausages, and orange juice. I supplied coffee, plates, and utensils.

It was a feast!

In planning for this men's breakfast, I wanted to add a little structure to it that went beyond just men with waffles sitting around and talking for a few hours about what men usually talk about when women aren’t around. You know, their children, their mother, and what they were making for supper that night. Things like that.

So here’s what I did. I set up an easel with a flip chart with pages of blank butcher paper about 2½ by 3’ in size. And before we started the waffle extravaganza, I said to the guys something along the lines of

Sometime this morning, in between eating your waffles, I’d like each of you to come over to this easel, take a marker and write down on the butcher paper one thing you appreciate about your wife. One sheet of paper per guy, then rip off the paper when you’re done. When we finish eating we’ll go around and each person gets to share what they wrote.

With that, the waffle-making commenced. I thought the men who were not making waffles would come over right away to write something on the paper. They didn’t. not one.

Was this men's breakfast a mistake?

“Oh great, I thought. This is surely going to bomb. They just want their waffles and nothing more. What was I thinking? How embarrassing. What a dumb idea.”

Well, at least the waffle makers will get a proper inauguration, and everyone will be fed, I thought. I must say, the waffles with all the trimmings were magnificent! My friend Randy was there and he will testify to it. They were far more impressive than the waffle he ordered at our recent breakfast.

I made sure to take photos of the whole event. I’d be happy to show them to you after dinner at your house sometime. Wednesdays work best for me, though I’m flexible. The last time I mentioned this one of our listeners actually had Janet and me for a delicious soup supper. It was on a Saturday evening, so you see I am flexible.

Anyway, as we were eating and talking I tried not to think about how no one was going over to the easel to write anything. But then to my relief, the guys did start to trickle over to the easel to do what I asked, like slow drops of water dripping off an icicle on your roof when its 34 degrees outside.

What husbands wrote

Slowly, one by one they came. Each one writing down one thing they appreciated about their wife, then ripping off the paper and rolling it up to take with them.

As we finished eating our waffles (did I mention it was a gastronomic delight?) and then cleaning up the kitchen, we found our way into our living room. With everyone seated, I then asked each guy to show what they wrote.

Mike wrote, “I appreciate how Vicki plans fun things and makes everything more fun!”

Bill wrote, “I love Rachel’s tender lovingkindness”

Scott’s butcher paper read in big bold letters, “I appreciate how Marci makes me laugh after a stressful day t work.”

Dick wrote this about his wife, “I appreciate Kathy for her loving and caring nature.”

Gregg’s sheet of paper read, “I appreciate Marian’s sense of adventure and insights into relationships.”

Another Mike in our group wrote, “I appreciate Gail’s sense of humor and her ability to make me laugh.”

Brad wrote, “I appreciate Elizabeth’s steadiness and her reality check.”

Randy, our friend who later moved to Pittsburgh, wrote, “I appreciate Kathy’s genuine faith and her love for our daughter Molly.”

And then I wrote, “I appreciate Janet’s sky blue eyes, her wisdom, and her love for our kids and grandchildren.

There was one more from Allen, which I will tell you about in a minute.

After everyone shared what they appreciated about their wives, guys hung around for a while and then left.

The men’s breakfast aftermath

With everyone gone, I then went through all the photos I took and arranged them in a slide presentation to show the next morning in our Sunday School class so the wives could see what their husbands wrote. There were photos of making the waffles, candid shots of men sitting around talking, and most importantly, an individual photo of each husband holding up a large piece of paper on which he wrote something he appreciated about his wife.

To the photos in the slideshow, I added a soundtrack. A recording of the late Nat King Cole singing “Unforgettable,” with his daughter Natalie Cole dubbed in to accompany him to create a romantic ballad duet.

So imagine you’re a woman in this class and you see this slide presentation of what these men wrote, accompanied by Natalie Cole and her late father singing “Unforgettable.”

So many “oohs” and “ah’s.” The loudest of which came at the end when the photo of Allen appeared and what he appreciated about his wife. Allen was a man of few words. I think it’s fair to say he was the quietest man in our church. On his butcher paper he wrote in large bold letters simply, “I appreciate Carol.”

He couldn’t bring himself to name just one thing he appreciated about his wife, it was Carol in her totality that he appreciated. The ladies loved it.

A men’s breakfast with a purpose

Now you might be thinking why would I do such a thing? I mean what does our men with waffles breakfast have to do with church and studying the bible? My answer is everything. Everything in the 12th chapter of the Book of Romans, especially verse 10 where the apostle Paul writes, “Love each other with genuine affection and take delight in honoring each other.”

Our class had been studying Romans 12 and what we did at our men with waffles breakfast was one way we could honor the wives in our class - to express what we appreciate about them.

So how about you?

There are so many ways we can honor people. It benefits the other person, certainly. But it also can bring a measure of delight into the person doing the honoring.

It’s another way to spread a little relational sunshine around the people we meet. It sparks joy in both them and you. Above all, it reflects the character of God. It’s part of God’s character to bless us, to affirm us, and we can do the same thing with others.

And you don’t have to organize a men's breakfast like I did. You can honor someone like Randy did with me by saying, “Hey, you want to get together? I’d like to spend some time with you.” It’s that simple. And it’s that profound.

Closing

As we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think of a way you can bless and honor someone by telling them what you appreciate about them.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

And of course, especially this week, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

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210: Word of the Year for 2024: Curious

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062: Vaccine Now Available for this Relational Virus

enJanuary 17, 2024

210: Word of the Year for 2024 - Curious

CURIOUS. It’s my pick for the 2024 Word of the Year. Curious. It’s an important relational skill we need to help us deepen our relationships with others.

Today’s episode is about what happens when we’re not curious about people, and what we can do about it to strengthen our relational curiosity muscles that will enrich our relationships.

But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

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Missed opportunities when we’re not curious about people

I’m just about finished reading David Brooks’ latest book, How to Know a Person - The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He’s a columnist for The New York Times and The Atlantic, and also a commentator you see every now on then on the PBS NewsHour.

I’m really enjoying his book and gave several copies of it to family members this past Christmas. At some point down the road I’ll do a review of the whole book, but for now, I’ll mention one paragraph that jumped out at me. The author tells the story of what happened to him at a dinner party when he was engaged in conversation with some interesting people.

Brooks mentioned conversations like this come naturally to him because his job as a journalist involves interviewing people, asking them questions, and otherwise drawing them out. After the party on the way home, he was reflecting on the conversations he had. And while they were certainly fascinating, they left him feeling empty.

He commented that here he was asking all kinds of questions of these interesting people, but no one was curious about anything in his life. No one asked him any questions at all. Not one. Nada. Zilch.

He didn’t mention it in this context, but Brooks as a columnist for two world-class publications, the author of several best-selling books, and a TV commentator - has lived a fascinating life himself. He’s traveled the world in connection with his job and has interviewed several US presidents and rulers of other countries. Yet no one was curious to ask him any questions.

How sad for Brooks, and even sadder for the people he engaged with at the party. They missed out.

“I’m curious about them, but they’re not with me”

Shortly after I read this section in Brooks’ book, one of my grandsons shared a similar story. A few months ago he started his first job out of college in a position he really loves. Plus, he is enjoying getting to know the people he works with. He is much younger than any of his colleagues, but they have taken him under their wings. Two women in particular go walking together on their lunch hour and they invited my grandson to join them. He describes his relationship with these ladies like this:

“I don’t think they realize how much younger I am than them [he’s 21]. They’re probably in their late 30s or early 40s and have been doing the same job I’m doing for a dozen years or so. They’re both moms with young kids in school. And they tell me about all the drama that goes on in their families with their kids. They’re fun people and I enjoy the time we walk together.

“But they don’t know one thing about me. They never ask me anything about my life.”

My grandson is a genuinely curious person. He’s always asking me questions about what’s going on in my life, and I can easily picture him asking his colleagues about theirs. He’s quite an engaging person so I can see why they invited him on their walks. These are good people he works with, but they’re missing out on learning how a person so different from themselves experiences the world.

“I’ve even killed people”

Then there’s my friend Dick at our church.

We’re a small group, about 25 of us. As part of our Sunday morning service, after the sermon we discuss what the preacher talked about. The discussions are often lively and quite interesting as people share their experiences as they relate to the sermon.

One Sunday not too long ago, the post-sermon discussion centered on the grace of God. Our little congregation has varying levels of understanding about this topic, based on what people experienced in other churches they’ve attended in the past.

Near the end of this particular discussion, my friend Dick chimed in. He’s in frail health, walks with a cane, and has breathing and balance difficulties. He comes to church with a caregiver who looks after him. When he arrives a couple of the women in our group always give him a big hug. His smile lights up the room when they do. Anyway, in a moment of vulnerability here’s what Dick said in our discussion:

“I’m 94 years old and all the things people have just shared are things I’ve been through myself, and more. But no one ever asks me about them. I mean, I’ve even killed people.”

It was a sad moment. A sad moment for our church because Dick has wisdom and experience to share if only people were curious enough to ask. Just saying this reminds me I need to act on my curiosity and engage with Dick more. I’m certainly interested in his perspective on the spiritual issues we talk about on Sunday morning, but I’m also curious about his personal life. He grew up during the Depression of the 1930s and I wonder what that was like for him. Oh, and then there’s that small matter of his comment, “I’ve even killed people.”

A different kind of law professor

I’ll leave you with one last story about being curious. It’s a positive one about

another grandson of mine. Our family was together on Christmas Day and we were catching up on each other’s lives. My grandson George had just completed his first semester of law school and we were asking him how it went. He talked about each of his courses and the professors who taught them. One of his professors in particular impressed me. George explained him like this:

“He memorized every one of our names, and there were 75 of us in the class. He taught two other classes and he did the same thing for those, too.

“Then he had each of us come to his office individually over the course of the semester for a short meeting. He said he just wanted to get to know us better. He asked us about our personal lives, our interests, things like that.

“And we got to ask him questions, too. I asked him how he got interested in law in the first place. Then I found out he had a couple of young children, and he told me about his wife, her love of plants, and that he was a big Green Bay Packers fan. No other professor does this. He’s ranked #2 of all the law school professors on that student-rated website.”

I’m really happy George has someone like this in his life, and I hope he gets this same professor again for another class. Not just because he was curious enough to find out more about George as a person, but also because he modeled for him what a relationally intelligent person does. They are curious about the lives of people they interact with.

But if I’m curious and ask people questions won’t they think I’m being nosy?

I’ll let David Brooks answer this question from his book I mentioned earlier, How to Know a Person. In his chapter entitled “The Right Questions” he writes,

“While doing research for this book, I interviewed many people - seminar leaders, conversation facilitators, psychologists and focus group moderators, biographers and journalists - whose job is to ask people about their lives. I asked these experts how often somebody looks back at them and says,

‘None of your d- - - business.’ Every expert I consulted had basically the same answer: ‘Almost never.’”

The author goes on to say, “A 2012 study by Harvard neuroscientists found that people often took more pleasure from sharing information about themselves than from receiving money.” Let that thought sink in for a moment. People often took more pleasure from sharing information about themselves than from receiving money.

Brooks concludes with “Over the course of my career as a journalist I, too, have found that if you respectfully ask people about themselves, they will answer with candor that takes your breath away.

“Studs Terkel was a journalist who collected oral histories over his long career in Chicago. He’d ask people big questions and then sit back and let their answers unfold. ‘Listen, listen, listen, listen, and if you do, people will talk,’ he once observed. ‘They always talk. Why? Because no one has ever listened to them before in all their lives. Perhaps they’ve not ever listened to themselves.’

“Each person is a mystery. And when you are surrounded by mysteries, as the saying goes, it’s best to live life in the form of a question.”

What a beautiful way of describing such a profound observation about the human condition. It takes my breath away.

So what about you?

How curious are you about the people in your life, and do you act on that curiosity? For me, I know now that I need to act on my curiosity about Dick, my 94-year-old-friend from church. I’ve got to find out where his “I’ve killed people” comment comes from. Not just for my benefit, but for his. There’s a story locked up within him somewhere that needs to get out to see the light of day.

Imagine what the world would be like if we were all a little more curious about each other. I’m convinced we’d all live deeper and richer lives.

So there you have it for the word of the year for 2024. Curious.

I’ll be coming back to this word and relational skill in future episodes this year. For now, though, at the bottom of the show notes I’ve listed links to past episodes that touch up the topic of curiosity that you might want to check out.

Closing

In closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to become more curious about the people around you, and then to act on that curiosity.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People

073: Could Curiosity About Others Minimize Racism?

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209: The Christmas Story in 2023

208: Christmas - A Time to Reflect

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208: Christmas - A Time to Reflect

enJanuary 03, 2024

209: The Christmas Story In 2023

When you get right down to it, the only thing that really matters in the Christmas story in 2023 is Jesus. No Santa, gifts, or Bing Crosby. Just Jesus.

Here's the original story as recorded in Luke's Gospel, just as it happened. I am reading from The Message, by Eugene Peterson. Luke 2: 1-20

The Birth of Jesus

About that time Caesar Augustus ordered a census to be taken throughout the Empire. This was the first census when Quirinius was governor of Syria. Everyone had to travel to his own ancestral hometown to be accounted for. So Joseph went from the Galilean town of Nazareth up to Bethlehem in Judah, David’s town, for the census. As a descendant of David, he had to go there. He went with Mary, his fiancée, who was pregnant.

While they were there, the time came for her to give birth. She gave birth to a son, her firstborn. She wrapped him in a blanket and laid him in a manger, because there was no room in the hostel.

An Event for Everyone

There were shepherds camping in the neighborhood. They had set night watches over their sheep. Suddenly, God’s angel stood among them and God’s glory blazed around them. They were terrified. The angel said, “Don’t be afraid. I’m here to announce a great and joyful event that is meant for everybody, worldwide: A Savior has just been born in David’s town, a Savior who is Messiah and Master. This is what you’re to look for: a baby wrapped in a blanket and lying in a manger.”

At once the angel was joined by a huge angelic choir singing God’s praises:

Glory to God in the heavenly heights,
Peace to all men and women on earth who please him.

As the angel choir withdrew into heaven, the shepherds talked it over. “Let’s get over to Bethlehem as fast as we can and see for ourselves what God has revealed to us.” They left, running, and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger. Seeing was believing. They told everyone they met what the angels had said about this child. All who heard the shepherds were impressed.

Mary kept all these things to herself, holding them dear, deep within herself. The shepherds returned and let loose, glorifying and praising God for everything they had heard and seen. It turned out exactly the way they’d been told!

____________

Merry Christmas 2023, everyone.

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207: How to Help the People We Love at Christmas

Blog post: The Joy of Christmas Past

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207: How to Help the People We Love At Christmas

enDecember 25, 2023

208: Christmas - A Time to Reflect

There are many cultural dimensions to all that is Christmas. Pick your favorite. I have a few that I look forward to every year. But as I get older, I’m seeing Christmas more as a great time to reflect on my relationship with Jesus.

In Luke’s gospel, for example, I’m especially drawn to the mother of Jesus, Mary, and how she reflects upon the birth of her son and all that it means to her, both in the present and the future. There are things we can learn from Mary as she takes time to reflect on this most important event in all of history.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

To set the scene for when Mary took time to reflect on all that happened at the first Christmas, I’ll read a few verses from Luke’s gospel that tell the story.

They’re the ones that occur right after Mary gave birth to Jesus. An angel of the Lord had just appeared to a group of shepherds who were on the job out in the fields tending to their sheep. God’s glory surrounded all of them, having appeared out of nowhere. Quite naturally the shepherds were terrified for they had never seen anything like this.

But the angel, a messenger from God, reassured them and told them there’s nothing to be afraid of because he was there to simply announce that Jesus. the savior, the Messiah the Lord. had been born in Bethlehem. Other angels then appear filling the sky and praising God. What a majestic sight that must have been.

After the angels leave

We’ll pick up the story in chapter 2 of Luke’s Gospel, verse 15. Luke writes:

When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”

So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

It’s this last line that has captained me lately, But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

Two important actions going on

There are two important verbs in the sentence I just read, “treasured” and “pondered.” at least that’s how the New International translation renders them. Other translations use the phrase “Mary kept all these things in her heart” rather than “treasure.”

For the verb “Pondered,” other translations use “thought about them often.”

But the translation I like best is the New International Bible Reader’s Version which translates Luke 2:19 like this,

But Mary kept all these things like a secret treasure in her heart. She thought about them over and over.

What are the “these things” of Christmas

Regardless of how you translate the two verbs in this verse, the noun phrase that is the object of the first sentence in the verse is always translated the same, “these things.”

But what are the things Mary was keeping, or treasuring, and pondering or thinking about over and over? It’s one of the beautiful mysteries of the Christmas story that’s worth taking the time to reflect upon.

I imagine Mary obviously reflecting upon what the shepherds told her about the angel of the Lord appearing to them and how terrifying it was. But how their fear turned to joy when the angel told them not to be afraid because

Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

What a comforting independent confirmation that what the angel Gabriel told Mary when he visited her 9 months earlier was actually true! This truth alone is like a treasure worth appreciating over and over again. What Gabriel told her wasn’t something she just imagined. The sky was full of angels confirming this was all true.

But there are a few other less obvious “these things”

The “all these things” phrase Luke uses in describing Mary’s response to what is happening, implies different layers to what Mary is experiencing. One layer I imagine is Mary taking time to reflect upon her relationship with her elderly relative Elizabeth.

Imagine these two improbable pregnancies. One to someone too old to bear a child, and the other to a virgin. This was certainly something to treasure and think about often. It would naturally draw Mary to God and his amazing ways in accomplishing his purposes.

Author Anne Lamont would describe this layer to the Christmas story, in the most reverent of tones, as “God showing off.” It’s one of her favorite expressions.

It makes me wonder about the improbable things God has done in your life. What things has he done for you that’s worthy of treasuring?

Joseph

And then there’s Mary’s husband Joseph. Another layer to the Christmas story. I imagine Mary sitting there in the cave with the baby Jesus looking at Joseph and treasuring her relationship with him. I picture her taking time to reflect on where they’ve come from in their time together. We don’t know how old Joseph was, but we’re pretty sure Mary was probably 14 or 15 years old. Maybe they went to high school together.

They were both from the small backwater town of Nazareth, which had a lot going against it in terms of its reputation. Remember one of Jesus’ disciples remarking, “can anything good come out of Nazareth?”

While I imagine Mary was the subject of a lot of gossip surrounding her pre-marital pregnancy, she had to know Joseph dealt with the same thing. There was a cost to his reputation and standing in the community, too. Yet he stood by her and believed what Mary and the angel Gabriel told him - as implausible as it was. What woman wouldn’t want a husband like this?

Scripture doesn’t have a lot to say about Joseph, except that he was described as a “good man.” I did an earlier episode about him, episode no 135, “Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy.” I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of the show notes in case you're interested. It’s one of my favorite Christmas episodes.

"All these men around my baby"

Another layer to what Mary treasured and took time to reflect upon could very well have been the place of the shepherds in the birth of Jesus. If I were Mary, I’d wonder why all these men were here to see my baby. Birthing is typically a female kind of thing, but here are all these guys - Joseph and the shepherds. There’s not another lady to be found in the whole story. What gives with that?

Why are the shepherds even part of the Christmas story? Why couldn’t the angels appear to Mary and Joseph directly?

The answer to this question is another example of God showing off, in the best sense of the word. You see these shepherds were not the ordinary run-of-the-mill shepherd. They were actually temple priests who cared for a special flock of sheep used for the Passover celebration and other temple festivals where ceremonial sheep were sacrificed.

Each of these sheep were without any blemish or defect. They were as perfect as any sheep could be. Their one and only purpose was to one day be a perfect sacrifice. These perfect sheep were what the priestly shepherds were watching over the night the angels appeared to them.

The shepherds knew that one day they would be out of a job when the Messiah, the savior , the son of God would come to earth. They knew he would be the once and for all perfect sacrifice for all mankind. No more sheep. A one and done sacrifice. So no wonder they were excited when the angel appears to them out in their fields around Bethlehem to announce the birth of Jesus.

“For there is born to you today, in David’s city, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11

Time to reflect on the future

Mary knew all this, too. The role of these temple shepherds was well-known, So I’m sure Mary would be reflecting upon the similarity between what they cared for, and what she would be caring for. Jesus is described in several places as the “lamb of God.” His once and for all sacrifice would replace the system these shepherds were part of.

Imagine what it must have been like for Mary, as a teenager knowing that in 33 years the baby you just gave birth to would be offered up by God as a sacrifice to redeem all of mankind.

So what does all this mean for YOU?

There was certainly no shortage of things for Mary to think about there besides her newborn baby. Lot’s of things to treasure and many things to reflect on, mull over, and ponder over and over again.

But what about you?

What about the role of Jesus in your life do you treasure? What are the layers of your relationships with him, that you think about from time to time? I encourage you to take time to reflect upon this.

You know this, I’m sure, but considering questions like these is so much more fulfilling than the other questions we usually ask at Christmas.

Closing

In closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to do what Mary did, to take time to reflect on your relationship with Jesus.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

The next time you hear my voice will be on Christmas Day when I read the entire Christmas story from Luke’s Gospel. It’s only 20 verses.

In the meantime don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

135: Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy

Last week’s blog post: The Joy of Christmas Past

All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com

Our Sponsor

You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.

Donate

You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.

045: Seven Relationship Lessons from the Greatest Christmas Movie Ever Made

enDecember 20, 2023

207: How to Help the People We Love At Christmas

In the 1947 classic Christmas film It’s a Wonderful Life!, George Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, goes through a tough time during Christmas in dealing with two serious financial problems caused by someone else. This most beloved and joyful man in all of Bedford Falls is overcome with depression, anger, hopelessness, and despair. In the midst of all this, George’s wife, Mary, steps in and shows us how to help the people we love when they are in a dark place, especially at Christmas It’s what today’s episode is all about.

But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

Christmas is all about relationships

Of all the times of the year to find joy in our relationships, can there be a better time than Christmas? Christmas only exists because Jesus wants a relationship with us, and he came to earth to make that really clear to us.

There’s certainly joy in this relationship, and also in our relationships with friends and family. But sometimes things get in the way of experiencing the kind of relationship God designed for us with the people we love.

We see this so vividly in what I think is the greatest Christmas movie ever made, It’s a Wonderful Life! The film is overflowing with many different kinds of relationship struggles. But in the end, it leaves you feeling good about being alive in community with other people.

I like this movie so much that I did an entire podcast on seven relationship lessons we learn from It’s a Wonderful Life! It’s episode 045 and I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of today’s show notes.

It’s a Wonderful Life! in a nutshell

If it’s been a while since you saw the film, or if you’ve never seen It’s a Wonderful Life!, here’s a brief summary of the plot:

The main character, George Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, grew up in a small town by the name of Bedford Falls prior to WWII. From the time he was young, George was a very popular, engaging person, well-liked by everyone.

Small-town life was not for him, however. He talked often about his dream of traveling to far-away places where he would work as an engineer to build big things, like skyscrapers and bridges.

George grew up in a loving family where his father and uncle ran the Bailey Brothers Building & Loan, a business in competition with the bank in town owned by the antagonist in the movie, Henry Potter. “Old man Potter” as he was called. At one point George’s father, Peter Bailey, died suddenly and George took over the Building & Loan.

The plan was that once George’s brother Harry graduated from college, he would take over the Building & Loan, so George could leave Bedford Falls to pursue an education and his dreams.

But things didn’t turn out as planned. Harry returns from college, not just with a diploma, but also with a wife and a job out of town with his father-in-law. All this leaves George with the responsibility of running the Building & Loan, causing him to feel all the more trapped, which is a major theme of the movie.

Money set aside for a honeymoon

George ends up getting married to a woman named Mary. On their wedding day and on their way out of town for their honeymoon, there’s a run on the bank. This was not unusual during the Depression of the 1930s, which is when the movie takes place. Everyone wanted to withdraw their savings in cash, but there’s not enough money to pay out the withdrawals. Mary sees what’s going on and turns over to George all the wedding money and savings she and George have saved for their honeymoon. George then uses it to pay out the cash withdrawals.

This is the first example we see from Mary of how to help the people we love when they are going through a rough time. How many women do you know would sacrifice their once-in-a-lifetime romantic vacation to help her husband solve a problem at work? Not many.

Most women would say something along the lines of, “This is our wedding day and we’re leaving for our honeymoon. Let your co-workers deal with the problem. They’ll understand. Aren’t I more important than your job, your business?

But that’s not Mary. She sacrifices her desires and her resources to help the person she loves. Sometimes to help the people we love we have to set aside our dreams. And sometimes to help the people we love will cost us financially.

Investing in relationships

This run on the bank that George and Mary are dealing with is an interesting metaphor for relationships. Just as deposits we make with our money into financial institutions, we also make “deposits” in our relationships. George Bailey had certainly done that with the relationships he developed and fostered in Bedford Falls. The movie shows how he invested in people, and the things he did to help people who needed help. Watch for it the next time you see the movie. I’ll comment more on this in a few minutes.

But I wonder about you and me. To what extent are we investing in relationships, where we pour ourselves into being there for other people? Will we have enough in our relationship account that there will be something to withdraw when we need help?

Another problem at work

After the problem with the run on the bank is solved. Another work-related problem arises like the whack-a-mole game you play at the fair. On Christmas Eve Uncle Billy misplaces $8,000 worth of deposits right as a bank examiner shows up for an audit. In today’s dollars adjusted for inflation, this would amount to about $110,000.

If the money isn’t found, it will mean bankruptcy, scandal, and jail time for George. He’s beside himself with fear, and it brings out the worst in him. The rest of the film shows how George goes about dealing with this problem, and how others deal with George. If ever there was a movie about relationships, this would be it.

For example, at one point in the film George tries to help Uncle Billy remember where he left the money. But he gets impatient, roughs up Uncle Billy, and calls him “a silly old fool.”

George then comes home in his irritated, fearful state and yells at his kids. He makes one of them cry, in fact. At which point Mary steps in to protect her children. She positions herself in front of the kids and confronts George very sternly with “George, why must you torture the children? Why don’t you…”

A change in behavior

Before this scene, Mary observed this marked change in behavior in her husband and asked him “What’s wrong?” George doesn’t answer, in part because I think he’s trying to protect his wife from work problems, and in part because he’s confused by his own anger and rage.

Mary is puzzled by George because it’s not like him to be so angry. But she doesn’t give up on George when he doesn’t answer her “what’s wrong?” question. She reflects in her mind what might be the problem. George didn’t go to work that morning angry at the world, so it’s logical to consider that maybe something happened at work to set him off. George isn’t any help in figuring out the problem, so Mary logically and wisely calls someone who works with George to see if he might know. It’s one thing you can do to help someone you love.

She picks up the phone and asks the operator to call Bedford 247. And guess who answers? Uncle Billy.

Now we don’t hear what Mary says to Uncle Billy. But by the end of the movie we find out.

George gets help for dealing with his problem

After George walks out the door after yelling at his kids we see him encounter Clarence Oddbody AS2 (Angel 2nd class). He’s sent by God to help George put his problem in perspective and to realize the impact he’s had on people. It’s interesting that God doesn’t send Clarence the angel to solve George’s problem, but rather that despite his problems it truly is a wonderful life that George has been living.

God still works like that today. Often not solving our problems, but always putting them in perspective in light of eternity and God’s purposes for our life.

Bold action to help the people we love

Getting back to Mary and her phone call to Uncle Billy. After George’s encounter with Clarence Oddbody, Angel second class, he returns home a new man. Oh so grateful to be alive and even at peace with the potential consequences of the misplaced $8,000 of deposits.

It’s here we see what Mary and Uncle Billy talked about in their phone call. She now tells George, “It’s a miracle, George! It’s a miracle!” Then Uncle Billy walks through their front door with a large wicker laundry basket, sets it on a folding table, and tells George one of the key lines in the movie in an excited tone.

“Mary did it, George! Mary did it! She scoured all over town telling people you were in trouble…” With that, crowds of people come pouring through the front door with cash to put in the basket.

What a bold action on Mary’s part. Sometimes to help the people we love we have to step out of our comfort zone and ask other people to help us care for the one we love. Sometimes we have to make withdrawals from our relational bank account. It’s just how it works.

What we’ve learned from Mary in It’s a Wonderful Life!

Mary shows us that we can help the people we love who are going through difficult times by first observing any change in behavior. What’s different about them now, and when did the change happen? Often knowing when will give us further clues to help those we love.

We also learn from Mary how it’s important to reflect upon what might be causing the distress in the people we love. Be direct and ask them. They may not know themselves, but don’t give up. Probe further.

Take action as Mary did. Ask other people who may be in a position to know what the root of the problem is in the angst our loved one is experiencing. Call someone. Don’t text.

And then when you finally understand the heart of the problem. Take more action. Evaluate what you can do to help, and what you need from other people.

Finally, we learn from Mary that helping the people we love going through a really bad season is done behind the scenes. I love behind-the-scenes-people. They have no hidden agenda and they want to bring out the best in people. It’s never about them

So what does all this mean for YOU?

How can you use what you’ve heard today to help you find more joy in the relationships in your life? Make it a goal to be a better observer of the important people in your life. Notice any changes in behavior. Then reflect upon what might possibly be causing those changes. Finally, take action. Do something that tries to help.

And like Mary in the movie, do all this behind the scenes. Be a behind-the-scenes person. It’s pretty fulfilling helping the people we love this way.

Closing

In closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to consider how you can help the people you love this Christmas - behind the scenes.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

Well, that’s it for today. As we close up shop, please don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them, kind of like Mary did and all the people of Bedford Falls. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

206: Thankful for the Stories of Others

A prior and most recent episode

All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com

Our Sponsor

You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.

Donate

Please consider making a donation to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.

You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.

enDecember 06, 2023

206: Thankful for the Stories of Others

The Thanksgiving holiday will soon be upon us here in the US, so I’ve been reflecting on what I’m thankful for. And this year I’m thinking about things that goes beyond my family and good health. In considering this, I’ve come to realize that I’m especially thankful for the stories of others.

That’s because I’ve found that the stories of what other people have experienced often lift me out of myself. Listening to what others have been through, both good and bad, and how those experiences shaped them into the person they are today, have a way of neutralizing the difficulties and concerns I’m experiencing.

I’ve got a story for you today that illustrates this principle. A story that happened to me. I hope as you listen to it you too will be encouraged to listen to the stories of others and experience the benefits in doing so.

But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

Thankful for this story that didn’t start well

My story starts on a late Friday afternoon at the end of the work week. I was still active full-time in my business, but this particular weekend Janet and I were headed to a missionary care conference in Gull Lake, Michigan.

When I got home from the office that day I hurriedly loaded up the car with our luggage, anxious to get on the road for the 4½ hour drive to the conference. Getting there required driving through Chicago during rush hour. Lots of bumper-to-bumper and stop-and-go traffic through the city’s congested highways. It was nerve-wracking.

We finally reached the conference grounds late at night, registered, and got our room key. As I began unloading the car with the clothes we packed I realized I had left half of them at home.

Oh great, I thought. We’re going to have to wear the same clothes for the entire weekend. Couple that with the late hour, and the nerve-wracking drive through Chicago, my irritability score was off the charts.

It didn’t get any better the next morning as I didn’t get much sleep that night. Lack of sleep. The long drive through Chicago traffic. No change of clothes all contributed to my over-the-moon crabbiness.

A not-so-thankful-start to the day

The first scheduled event for Saturday morning was breakfast in the dining hall of the conference center. Janet and I grabbed a tray and made it through the line with our breakfast selections and then looked for a place to sit.

I was still feeling so irritable that I didn’t was to sit with anyone else attending the conference. It wouldn’t be fair to them to sit with someone as crabby as I was that morning. So we spotted a few empty tables in the far reaches of the room and headed there to spend a quiet breakfast away from anyone.

It wasn’t long though, before I spotted an older man slowly heading toward us with his tray of food. “Oh no. Please no,” I thought. He’s going to sit with us and we’re going to have to eat breakfast together. And we’re going to have to talk with him. Yikes!

There was no getting around it. There was no place to hide. We were stuck.

Thankful for an unusual breakfast companion

The elderly man sat down with his tray across the table from me. We exchanged pleasantries, commented on the weather, and then he asked us where we were from. I told him and then following his lead I asked,

“How about you? Where are you from?”

“I came here from Detroit,” but I was a pastor in Canada for many years. I’m retired now,” he replied.

Hmm, I thought. His answer surprised me a bit because in our brief conversation so far I detected an accent in his speech. He sounded European and not like any Canadian I had ever known. We made more small talk and then I asked him,

“You seem to have an accent, European I’m guessing. Were you born there?”

“Oh, yes,” he said. I was born in Holland and lived there until I was 19 before I moved to Canada,” he replied.

Hmm, I thought again. I’m guessing our new breakfast companion was probably in his early 80s, which turned on my mental calculator and prompted me to ask another question based on his age and my knowledge of history.

Thankful that one question often leads to another

“Were you by any chance living in Holland during World War II? I asked.

His eyes lit up, and with a smile, he responded with a simple but spirited, “Yes!”

I continued with, “And were you still living there when Germany invaded and took over your country?”

“I was,” he said.

By this time in our conversation I suddenly realized I’m talking with someone who was an eyewitness to one of the most significant and awful events of the 20th century. I didn’t see it in myself at the time, but my mood took a drastic turn for the better. My irritability escaped from my being like a mouse who flees when he sees a cat in the room. It happened that quickly.

“What was that like for you, to be living during the occupation?”

“The Nazi soldiers were everywhere, patrolling the streets with their rifles slung over their shoulders. It was a very scary and difficult time for all of us.”

“Why did you leave Holland when you were 19?” I asked after he finished talking about his wartime experience.”

Thankful for the humor found in the stories of others

“Oh that’s a funny story,” he said, again with a smile on his face.

“The Dutch government was concerned about over-population and that the country couldn’t handle the increase in population growth they anticipated. So they offered anyone who would move away a sum of money that was equivalent to about $5,000. After the war in 1945-46, that was a large amount of money. So being 19-years-old and looking for adventure, I grabbed the money and moved to Canada.

“As it turned out, the population of Holland grew much larger anyway and there hasn’t been any problem with the country keeping up with that growth.”

“Why did you move to Canada,” I asked. “Why not the U.S.?”

“Oh, that was an easy decision,” our elderly Dutchman replied. “When the Allied forces liberated us after the war in 1945, the Canadian soldiers were much friendlier than the Americans. So that’s why I moved to Canada.”

We all got a good laugh over this part of his story.

With that, we finished breakfast and moved to the first session of the conference. I was now completely rejuvenated and thankful for the story of this Dutchman. I don’t recall seeing him again the rest of the weekend, but this relational moment we had together over breakfast has stayed with me for many years since. It makes me smile whenever I think of him.

Thankful for what we learn from the stories of others

My interaction with this World War II-era Dutchman taught me a number of things:

All problems are temporary. Even leaving half your clothes at home for a weekend trip
Our moods are temporary, too. A good conversation can be a mood-altering experience
Asking a simple question to start a conversation is quite powerful
Asking a follow-up question is even more powerful. It’s the engine that keeps the conversation train rolling down the tracks
Being curious about other people has been a source of joy in my life. It’s the basis for being a good listener, and a means to deepen relationships.
I’m so thankful I majored in history in college and that I still enjoy it. Having a background in history has enriched my life.

So what does all this mean for YOU?

The next time you’re in a bad mood, use your curiosity muscles to listen to someone share one of their life experiences. By drawing them out with follow-up questions it will help lift you out of yourself. It’s amazing how that works. Give it a try.

Closing

In closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to be curious about other people and to be thankful for their stories.

For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.

Well, that’s it for today.

Now don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll connect with you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

185: Thankful for Curious People

063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People

165: Nosey People Weaken Relationships; Curious People Strengthen Them

The prior and most recent episode

205: How to Have a Meaningful Conversation

All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com

Our Sponsor

You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.

Donate

You can also make a contribution by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.

enNovember 15, 2023

205: How to Have a Meaningful Conversation

To deepen our current relationships, or to develop new ones, it’s helpful to ask ourselves an important question. Namely, “How do I have a meaningful conversation with someone?” Today’s episode will give you a few ideas to help you answer this question.

But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.

Welcome to You Were Made for This

I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.

A meaningful conversation with my barber

One way to find this joy God designed for us is to consider how we can have meaningful conversations with people. “Meaningful” doesn’t necessarily have to mean “deep.” If you listened to the episode prior to this one, #204, you may recall the woman on the NextDoor app who posted that she wanted to have 40 “deep conversations” before she turned 40.

As it turns out she was really looking for 40 people to sign up for her life coaching business. I heard from some of you that you were angry with the woman for misleading people like this.

Now I’m going to save deep conversations for another time, and I have no life coaching advice for anyone. Well, except for one thing. Grown men over 60 should tuck their shirts in when out in public. It will keep your mom happy, if she’s still alive. It will honor her legacy if she’s no longer with us. That’s the extent of my life coaching advice for today.

As for meaningful conversations, they don’t have to be deep in order to derive a measure of joy from them. And you don’t always have to create them, because sometimes they just come to you like a stray dog or cat who appears on your doorstep and welcomes themself in.

For example, several years ago I was sitting in the chair in a barber shop when my barber, Paul, asked me what I was going to do the rest of the day when I was done with my haircut.

“Stain my deck this afternoon,” I said.

“I’ve been putting it off because I don’t like being on my knees putting the stain on with a paintbrush. But the job needs to be done.”

The most meaningful conversation I had that day

Paul then said, “You know they make special brushes for putting down stain on decks. They’re about 6 inches wide and an inch and a half thick. You screw any standard-size pole, like you use for a broom, into a hole in the brush. This allows you to dip the brush into the pail of stain and put it down on the wood without ever bending down or kneeling. Most hardware stores carry this kind of brush.”

After my haircut I went straight to a nearby hardware store, bought the kind of brush Paul described, and started staining my deck just as Paul described. What was once a burdensome task now became something quite easy. All because of this meaningful conversation while sitting in a barber’s chair.

The meaning in my conversation with Paul is that he shared something that made my life better. He shared the knowledge and experience he had to ease a difficulty in my life. It wasn’t a deep conversation by any means, but it brought me joy in knowing how to complete a task in a new and less painful way. It really lifted my spirits.

To have this meaningful conversation with Paul all I did was engage in small talk and share what was on my mind. When you do the same thing with a good listener, there’s the possibility are you’ll get into a meaningful conversation, too.

Dinner party

Another meaningful conversation happened just recently when Janet and I were invited to dinner at the home of one of our couple friends. Another husband and wife who moved away many years ago were in town and they were invited, too. The six of us have been friends for decades.

As the six of us were eating, the subject came up of the first house each of us lived in and the memories we had of those homes. It was interesting to hear each person recall what was memorable for them. One memory shared in this conversation that stood out for me was one shared by the hostess, who I will call “Sarah.” It’s not her real name, but she’d be embarrassed to no end if I told you who she really was, so I’ll just call her Sarah.

A visit from Dad

Anyway, Sarah shared a memory of her and her husband’s first house, that in all the many years I have known them I had never heard before. She said a favorite memory was how her dad on occasion would come and visit her on his day off. He was a mail carrier is a town about 75 miles away.

“He would drive all that way and then sit in our living room and read the newspaper. It’s a favorite memory of mine, being in the same small living room with him while he read the paper.”

Sarah was a young mom at the time with two small children when her father would come and spend the day with her.

The smile and look on her face told me this was something special. I had heard stories about her father before, of the kind man he was. Sarah’s husband spoke fondly of him, too. On the days he would visit he came alone. Sarah’s mother stayed home. To me, it seemed fitting that way, as her relationship with her mother was, well, very different from her relationship with her dad.

A meaningful conversation without words

Even though no one else said much as she shared her story, I found it to be a meaningful conversation among the six of us. Sarah, as long as I’ve known her, has been one of the kindest, most loving and gentle people I’ve known. I learned this night when she shared her story where she got these qualities. She got them from her dad.

Her dad’s legacy lives on through Sarah. She places a high value on relationships as he did, and she is kind and gentle, too.

I mean, who would spend their day off from work to drive 150 miles and 2½ hours round trip to just be with his daughter? Not to do anything special, just to sit in her living room reading the newspaper.

I found both sadness and joy in this meaningful conversation. Sadness that Sarah’s mother related to her so differently. Sadness in knowing that her dad died quite young. I think he was only 54. I found joy in knowing this memory of Sarah’s father and how the way he spent his day off still has a special place in her heart.

There was also the Joy in seeing her dad in Sarah. Their shared qualities of kindness and gentleness. And Joy in knowing an example of how a father can love his adult daughter. I want to be remembered by my daughter and son like this after I’m gone.

What makes a conversation meaningful?

I like to think a meaningful conversation is one where there is an exchange of meaning. And it doesn’t necessarily have to involve words. The conversation with my barber about the deck stain brush certainly involved words. He shared his knowledge and experience that was meaningful to me. It was a solution to a problem I had, which I appreciated.

Now, you and I have been in conversations filled with lots of words, many words, but without any meaning being exchanged. You know what I’m talking about. When people fill the air with their own voice, where they talk just to talk, devoid of anything meaningful to you. They give you information or opinions you didn’t ask for that mean nothing to you. You are not asked any questions in a conversation like this. It’s more a monologue than a conversation.

This wasn’t the case at all with Sarah sharing a favorite memory from the first house. There were few words, but lots of meaning was exchanged because we listened. Listening based on what we all remembered about Sarah’s background. Listening by observing her facial expression. And then listening by entering into Sarah’s story as we imagined what it must have been like for her, and for her dad, and his occasional visits to her home.

Sarah shared her memory with only a few words, yet it was filled to the brim with meaning.

Words not needed

If Sarah had used words to convey the meaning of her conversation it would have gone something like, “My dad thought I was important enough to use his day off from work to come and spend time time with me. Even if it was to just sit in our living room reading the newspaper. That was enough for both of us. It was all we needed, to be together like that. This was a favorite memory of mine from the first house owned.”

Yeah, something like these words would have described it. But we didn’t need the words. We saw it and more in her face. The meaning I came away with from this meaningful conversation was joy for Sarah. Joy that she had such a loving relationship with her dad. It reminded me of that Walt Whitman quote I love,

“We were together, I forgot the rest.”

So what about YOU?

I wonder what meaningful conversations you’ve had lately. What have you done to make them meaningful? What exchange of meaning has taken place between you and another person?

And I especially wonder what meaningful conversations presented themselves to you, like the sun peeking around the edge of grey clouds after a sprinkle of rain? I’d love to hear about any conversations like this.

Closing

And speaking of the sun peeking out from clouds, as we close up shop for today, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.

Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows

Prior and most recent episode 204: Deep Conversations

All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com

Our Sponsor

You Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.

Donate

You can also make a contribution by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page. Thank you.