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    • New podcast seasons and exciting showsKatie Couric's Next Question returns with notable guests, MTV's Challenge podcast is back, Hello Sunshine introduces The Bright Side, and Breaking Points continues to cover important stories.

      The new podcast season is here with a variety of fascinating conversations and exciting shows. Katie Couric welcomes listeners to the ninth season of her podcast, Next Question, featuring guests like Kris Jenner, Jay Shetty, Hillary Clinton, and more. MTV's official Challenge podcast, All Stars 4, is also back, with legends, power players, and ex-lovers competing for a $300,000 prize. Danielle Robae and Simone Boyce host The Bright Side, a new daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, bringing conversations about culture, trends, and inspiration. Sagar and Jetty's Breaking Points continue to cover important stories that the mainstream media won't touch. Additionally, the State of the Union address is a significant event where the president lays out his plans for reelection, with Kevin McCarthy as the new speaker of the house.

    • Economic Disconnect Between Data and Public PerceptionDespite strong jobs report and low unemployment, Americans feel worse off economically under Biden's administration due to concerns about inflation, rising costs, and perceived lack of progress towards a pre-pandemic economy.

      President Biden's State of the Union address focused heavily on the economy, emphasizing the strong jobs report and low unemployment rate. However, there's a disconnect between these positive metrics and how Americans perceive their economic situation. Many feel worse off under Biden's administration, with concerns about inflation, rising costs, and a perceived lack of progress towards a pre-pandemic economy. The argument from the White House is that things have been improving since last summer, but the midterm election results and public opinion data suggest that this message may not be resonating with voters. The jobs growth, largely in the service sector, does not compare to the stable, well-paying jobs of the past. While there may be temporary boosts to approval ratings after such speeches, the long-term challenge for the administration is addressing the disconnect between the economic data and the public's perception.

    • Balancing economic concerns and political messaging in 2022President Biden must address economic inequality and stability while navigating political messaging in 2022 to secure re-election.

      The current economic situation and political climate require President Biden to deliver a balanced and honest speech that addresses the concerns of the American people, particularly those in the lower income brackets who are still feeling the effects of wage stagnation and inflation. Biden's central political skill lies in his ability to read the political mood of the country, and in 2022, that mood is moving away from the "democracy is under threat" message towards a focus on economic stability and addressing the root causes of economic inequality. The Republican Party, represented by figures like Sarah Huckabee Sanders, is expected to contrast Biden's policies with their own, and Biden's success in the 2024 election will depend on his ability to effectively address the concerns of the electorate and present a clear vision for the future.

    • Republicans and Democrats struggle to read US political climateBoth parties misread electorate, Dems connect with voters, GOP focus on 'woke' issues may not win, ongoing tax debate undermines GOP argument

      Both the Democratic and Republican parties have struggled to accurately read the political climate in the United States since 2008. The Republican Party, with the exception of Trump in 2016, has consistently misread the electorate, leading to losses and failed strategies. For instance, the Tea Party movement led to arrogance in 2012, causing Republicans to overlook key issues that resonated with voters. Similarly, in 2022, the GOP believed inflation and gas prices would be enough to secure a victory, only to be met with a disappointing result. Meanwhile, Democrats, led by President Biden, have managed to connect with voters and address their concerns effectively. However, the GOP's recent focus on "woke" issues and education may not be a winning strategy, as voters continue to prefer Democrats on education matters. The ongoing debate over taxes, with Republicans pushing for regressive sales taxes, further undermines their argument as the party of tax cuts. Ultimately, the ability of both parties to accurately gauge the political climate and respond accordingly will be crucial in the upcoming elections.

    • State-level victories may not directly translate to national successSuccess in state-level issues like education and local economics might not sway national voters, and disagreements within the Republican Party on economic policy could limit their focus on this issue.

      The Republican Party's success in state-level issues, particularly education and local economics, may not directly translate to national success. While these issues may resonate with voters in specific states, it remains to be seen if they will have the same impact on a broader, national scale. For instance, Ron DeSantis' aggressive stance on education and Disney in Florida might not significantly shift the votes of purple voters. Instead, the failure of the Democratic Party in certain states, like Florida, might be a more significant factor. Additionally, the Republican Party's lack of agreement on economic policy might limit their ability to focus on this issue in their speeches. Ultimately, while state-level victories are crucial, the party must be mindful of the mood of the electorate and tailor their messages accordingly for the general election.

    • Americans prioritize economy over other issues in SOTU addressPresident Biden should focus on economic issues like reducing healthcare costs and expanding child tax credits to align with public priorities for SOTU, but feasibility of these proposals may be limited with Republicans controlling House.

      According to a recent Pew Research poll, strengthening the economy is the top priority for Americans as they approach the State of the Union address. This is significant because it shows that President Biden does not need to focus on convincing the public that everything is perfect, but rather on maintaining the status quo. Energy, an issue that was a major concern during the summer, is now in the middle of the list of priorities. Additionally, the low ranking of COVID-19 concerns in the poll suggests that the electorate may be moving on from the pandemic issue. For Republican candidates like Ron DeSantis, whose case against Trump hinges on the handling of the pandemic, this could make their arguments less compelling. President Biden's focus on economic issues, such as reducing health care costs and expanding child tax credits, aligns with the poll results and sets the stage for his re-election pitch. However, it's important to note that many of these proposals will not be feasible with the Republicans in control of the House.

    • IRA's impact on prescription drug prices for seniorsThe Inflation Reduction Act is estimated to save seniors $288 billion on prescription drugs, with a cap at $2,000 out-of-pocket costs.

      During the recent discussion, it was highlighted that the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) includes provisions for lower prescription drug prices for seniors, with a cap at $2,000 out-of-pocket and significant savings estimated at $288 billion. This is an example of how the IRA addresses a major concern for seniors, while Congressional Republicans are criticized for doing nothing. Additionally, there was a light-hearted moment about George Santos attempting to shake President Biden's hand during the State of the Union address, aiming for a photo opportunity. The overall sentiment was that while the State of the Union event may seem pompous and full of political stunts, it is an essential tradition for transparency and accountability. The speakers were in favor of more honesty and direct communication about the state of the union, even if it's not always positive.

    • Connecting with people's feelings and perceptions mattersSuccessful political candidates acknowledge people's struggles and frustrations, rather than trying to persuade them with an overly optimistic outlook.

      The success of a political candidate, especially one who runs on a message of pessimism, hinges on their ability to connect with the public's feelings and perceptions, rather than trying to persuade them with an overly optimistic outlook. Trump's win in 2015-2016 demonstrated this, as he spoke to the reality of people's lives and expressed their frustrations, even if it came across as pessimistic. This contrasted with the more optimistic approach of traditional Republican politics. Peter Thiel's contrarian bet in 2015, which supported Trump, was based on the idea that people were looking for a negative message, and Trump's success showed that Thiel was onto something. Ultimately, meeting people where they are and acknowledging their struggles can be more powerful than trying to persuade them with a rosy outlook.

    • Biden's Strategy: Capitalizing on GOP's Focus on Election DenialBiden's strategy to win reelection focuses on Republicans' focus on election denial, but its success depends on GOP nominations and voter response.

      Donald Trump's ability to mobilize energy and focus on issues that resonated with voters during his presidency was a significant factor in his success. However, his inconsistency and the difference between being an incumbent and an opposition can pose challenges. Biden, on the other hand, has been able to capitalize on Republican nominations of candidates who focus on divisive issues like election denial, allowing him to continue addressing this topic. The success of Biden's strategy depends on the Republican Party's nominations and their ability to move on from election-related issues. In his State of the Union address, Biden is expected to take credit for stable gas prices and address key issues like abortion and reelection. The longevity of his focus on the January 6th Capitol attack will depend on the Republican Party's nominations and the voters' response.

    • Biden's Presidential Address: Age, Policies, and Harris' Role Under ScrutinyBiden's age, mental and physical capabilities, policies, Harris' role, and intangible factors like communication style will be closely assessed during his presidential address.

      During Joe Biden's presidential address, not only will his policies and actions be under scrutiny, but also his physical and mental capabilities. With age being a major concern for many Democrats and the optics of his performance being crucial, Biden's speech will be a test of his ability to effectively communicate and navigate the event. Additionally, the public perception of Vice President Kamala Harris, who would be next in line, plays a role in this assessment. The New York Times article highlighting her struggles to define her role and the concerns from her own allies adds to the scrutiny. Despite Biden's history of overcoming a stutter, his age and potential successor's popularity create a unique challenge for his campaign. The intangible factors, such as vibes and communication style, will also be closely watched.

    • Republican Primary: Base Turnout vs. Biden's Speech IssuesTrump's divisive nature and potential vulnerabilities make him a beatable Republican candidate, but underestimating him could be risky.

      Despite concerns over President Joe Biden's speech issues and electability, the Republican primary race remains a base turnout issue. Trump's numbers may currently be strong, but they are not guaranteed to hold. Trump's history of disasters and controversial actions make him a divisive figure, and while he may be the most beatable Republican candidate, underestimating him could be a mistake. The conventional wisdom of Trump as an unbeatable candidate still exists, but the current political climate and Trump's own actions may be changing that perception. Ultimately, the outcome of the Republican primary and the general election will depend on various factors, including the candidates' performance, the economy, and voter sentiment.

    • Trump's Political Power PersistsDespite poor performance during COVID-19 crisis, Trump maintains significant influence within GOP, and Democrats may limit their ability to innovate by punishing losing politicians.

      Despite Donald Trump's poor performance during the COVID-19 crisis, resulting in thousands of lives lost and a close election loss in 2022, it's premature to write him off as a political force. He still holds significant power within the Republican Party, and potential contenders like Ron DeSantis, Nikki Haley, Mike Pompeo, and Larry Hogan have not officially declared their candidacy for the 2024 presidential race. The debate over Trump's electability remains a significant factor in the GOP, and the party's base may prioritize electability more in future elections, as Democrats have done. However, there's little evidence to suggest that a majority of Republican voters share this perspective, and Trump's past election losses don't seem to have deterred him from considering another run for the presidency. The Democratic Party, on the other hand, has a history of punishing politicians who can't win elections, but this approach may limit the party's ability to innovate and push the political agenda further to the left.

    • Republican civil war: Elite media and organizational fightThe Republican Party's internal strife is driven by elite media and organizational dynamics, while electability in the Democratic Party hinges on capturing these structures.

      The Republican Party's internal dynamics and the role of elite structures in shaping electability and normalcy differ significantly from those of the Democratic Party. The discussion highlighted that the Republican civil war is more of an elite media and organizational fight, while electability in the Democratic Party is often signified by capturing these structures. The speakers also touched upon the ongoing Republican infighting, with examples given of various figures and their supporters. Additionally, there were mentions of recent news items, such as Marty Walsh leaving the Biden administration to join the NHL Players Association and an altercation between Mitt Romney and George Santos on the floor of Congress. Regarding the used car market, it was suggested to keep watching the show for updates.

    • Ukraine war as a significant issue in 2024 electionsTrump's stance on Ukraine could help him appeal to voters and potentially sway the election, but it's unclear what he would do if elected due to inconsistent statements.

      The Ukraine war is expected to be a significant issue in both the Republican primary and the potential general election in 2024. While Trump and Biden have opposing views on the matter, Trump is also trying to distinguish himself from other Republicans, particularly Ron DeSantis, who may be more hawkish on foreign policy. Trump's stance on Ukraine could help him appeal to traditional Republican voters and potentially sway the election. Despite the political importance of the issue, it's unclear what Trump would actually do if elected, as his statements on the matter have been inconsistent. The Ukraine war may not determine the outcome of the election at this moment, but it could become a defining issue as the race heats up.

    • Significant interruptions and controversy during State of the Union addressPresident Biden's economic message focusing on 'Made in America' and bipartisanship is the lasting impact, despite disruptions.

      The State of the Union address was marked by a significant amount of interruptions and controversy, particularly regarding Social Security and Medicare, but the underlying economic message of the speech, focusing on "Made in America" and bipartisanship, is likely to be the lasting impact. Despite the disruptions, President Biden led with a message of unity and cooperation, aiming to work with Republican leaders. The economic message, which was the focus of the early part of the speech, is a notable shift that Trump's presidency brought about, as no president before him had given a speech with such emphasis on American manufacturing. The interruptions, while gaining attention in the moment, may not be the main story in the long run, as the economic message and the potential for bipartisan collaboration are likely to be the key takeaways.

    • Highlighting contrasts and appealing to votersBiden's State of the Union address effectively showcased his leadership, contrasted his efforts with Republican stance, and appealed to suburban moderate voters.

      The State of the Union address delivered by President Biden served multiple purposes, including appealing to suburban moderate voters, showcasing his accomplishments, and making politically savvy moves like tying the Paul Pelosi attack to the "big lie." The address also highlighted the contrast between Biden's efforts to get things done and the Republican Party's stance on issues like the economy, Social Security, and Medicare. While some Republicans, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, used the event for their own fundraising and viral moments, Biden's address effectively hit all the necessary notes and clocked in at around an hour and a half, which is average for a State of the Union address. One of the most memorable lines was Biden's casual mention of corporations paying a minimum tax rate, which drew a laugh from the audience. Overall, the address was an effective job, showcasing Biden's leadership and commitment to addressing the issues important to American voters.

    • Republican stance on Social Security and Medicare evolvingThe Republican party's stance on Social Security and Medicare is uncertain, with some advocating for cuts but facing opposition from the public and growing acceptance among younger generations. Big money institutions continue to push for cuts.

      The Republican party's stance on Social Security and Medicare has evolved significantly, with many members now reluctant to publicly advocate for cuts despite privately holding such views. This shift is reminiscent of the defund the police debate, where extreme positions can be used as attack points. The failure of past attempts to reform or privatize these programs, along with the growing acceptance of Social Security among younger generations, has left the party uncertain about its position. While some Republicans may advocate for raising the retirement age as an alternative, the overall consensus is unclear. The party's big money institutions, however, continue to push for cuts. Joe Biden's emphasis on attacking the Republican party's stance on Social Security is a politically effective strategy, given the unpopularity of cutting these programs among the public.

    • Biden's Economic Focus in SOTU, GOP ResponseThe GOP is shifting focus from economics to culture wars and border control, despite Biden's emphasis on economic issues in SOTU, while the fentanyl crisis remains a contentious point with China blame and need for a multi-faceted approach.

      The Republican Party is strategically focusing on economic issues for political gain, despite a lack of impact felt by the American people regarding the Biden administration's agenda. During Biden's recent State of the Union address, he emphasized economic themes, but received minimal mention of hot-button issues like abortion and the January 6th Capitol attack. The GOP is expected to respond with a focus on culture wars and border control, rather than engaging in economic debates. Additionally, the ongoing fentanyl crisis was a point of contention during the speech, with blame being placed on China for the majority of the supply. However, the complexities of the issue and the need for a multi-faceted approach were acknowledged. The polling data suggests that cracking down on illegal drugs is a popular stance, but it's important to consider what is politically feasible in addressing the issue.

    • Political Discussion: Biden's Approval Ratings and Unusual Senate AttireDespite low approval ratings on certain issues, Biden's proposals to support labor, address climate change, and implement a billionaire tax could resonate with working people and generate support for his campaign.

      During a recent political discussion, it was noted that President Biden's approval ratings are low when it comes to certain issues like drug legalization and border control. However, it was also pointed out that he has continued some of the previous administration's policies, leading to confusion among critics. Another topic of discussion was the unusual attire of two politicians, Kyrsten Sinema and Marjorie Taylor Greene, during a Senate session. Despite the various criticisms and distractions, it was emphasized that the focus should be on finding real solutions to pressing issues like Fentanyl and immigration. The most significant point made during the speech was Biden's proposal to address healthcare and economic issues, specifically his plans to support organized labor, address climate change, and implement a billionaire tax. These policies could potentially resonate with working people and generate support for his presidential campaign.

    • Biden shifts political narrative with economic focusBiden's economic-focused State of the Union address left Republicans without a clear game plan for the debt ceiling crisis, strengthening Biden's position and potentially limiting GOP spending options

      During the recent State of the Union address, Joe Biden effectively shifted the political narrative by tackling economic issues head-on and standing firm against Republican attacks on Social Security and Medicare. This speech, which was heavily focused on economics and infrastructure, left Republicans without a clear game plan for the upcoming debt ceiling crisis. The bipartisan sentiment for unity and getting things done was overshadowed by the Republicans' vehement opposition to Biden's proposals, particularly regarding Social Security and Medicare. This opposition, in turn, strengthened Biden's position and narrowed the Republicans' options, potentially limiting their ability to cut spending on areas like the EPA and BLM while maintaining their base's support. This new dynamic could significantly impact the upcoming political landscape and negotiations.

    • Budget debates in DC: Numbers don't add up to save social programs without impacting themDespite the focus on saving social programs, the economic realities make significant budget cuts impossible without affecting them. Republicans acknowledge this, but use culture war rhetoric as a distraction.

      The ongoing debate in Washington D.C. surrounding the budget and debt ceiling revolves around the desire to save and strengthen social programs like Social Security and Medicare, but the numbers simply don't add up to achieve significant budget cuts without impacting these entitlements. Republicans, including prominent figures like Senator Rick Scott and JD Vance, have acknowledged this reality, and the culture war rhetoric is being used as a distraction from the economic challenges. Sarah Huckabee Sanders' response to Biden's State of the Union address, which focused on the culture war, missed the mark as Biden's speech primarily addressed economic issues. The disconnect between the perceived Biden and the actual Biden on issues like antitrust reform and economic growth is a challenge for Republicans, as Biden comes off as a centrist figure who is not easily labeled as radical or woke.

    • Biden's Re-Election Hinges on Public Perception of OppositionDespite accomplishments, Biden's low approval rating may lead to re-election through opposition dislike. Republicans must create a clear contrast without appearing extreme.

      Despite President Joe Biden's efforts and accomplishments during his presidency, as perced in the latest ABC poll, a majority of Americans feel he has not accomplished much. With a low approval rating and a lack of excitement from both Democrats and Republicans, Biden's re-election hinges on how much the American public dislikes the opposition and the extent to which they want to avoid their policies. The political landscape is shifting towards candidates with low approval ratings being able to win elections by cobbling together the right coalition. Republicans need to be mindful of this and focus on creating a clear dichotomy between themselves and Biden, without appearing too extreme or "crazy." Ultimately, the success of Biden's re-election campaign will depend on the nominee and the public's perception of them in comparison to the opposition.

    • Internal struggles within Democratic and Republican partiesBoth parties face internal divisions, with Democrats grappling with establishment vs progressive wings and Republicans experiencing a civil war between economic and cultural stances. These tensions will shape the political landscape moving forward.

      The ongoing tensions within the Democratic and Republican parties are centered around their approaches to economic and cultural issues. The Democrats are grappling with their electoral losses and the influence of Trump's wing, while also recognizing the need to address their own internal divisions. Biden's presidency has been seen as a compromise between the establishment and progressive wings, leading to frustration on the outside. Meanwhile, the Republicans are experiencing their own civil war, with figures like Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley positioning themselves based on their stances on economic and cultural issues. The midterm elections showed that both parties still hold significant power institutionally, despite their electoral challenges. Ultimately, the outcome of these internal struggles will shape the political landscape for years to come.

    • New political leaders emerge with unclear differences on key issuesThe political landscape is shifting with new leaders like Ron DeSantis and Sarah Huckabee Sanders, but it's uncertain how their stances on entitlements and economic policy differ from predecessors. Midterms will help sort out differences, while signs of realignment on antitrust are emerging.

      The political landscape is undergoing significant shifts, particularly within the Republican Party, as new leaders like Ron DeSantis and Sarah Huckabee Sanders emerge. However, it remains unclear how substantially different they will be on key issues like entitlements and economic policy compared to their predecessors. The midterms are expected to be a battleground for sorting out these differences. Additionally, there are signs of realignment on certain issues, such as antitrust, but it's not yet clear how the new leaders will govern on this front. On the Democratic side, President Biden's campaign kickoff was largely successful, and he's making smart moves by focusing on key battleground states. However, the laundry list of demands from both parties may not materialize, and the current political climate is largely oppositional. Overall, the political landscape is in a state of flux, and it will be interesting to see how the new leaders navigate these challenges.

    • Biden's Shift in Political Approach Towards RepublicansPresident Biden displayed a change in approach towards Republicans, moving from negotiation to assertive stance on Social Security, Medicare, and industrial policy.

      During his recent State of the Union address, President Joe Biden displayed a shift in his political approach, particularly towards Republican lawmakers. He went from attempting to negotiate and compromise, to assertively stating his stance on key issues like Social Security and Medicare, and vowing to stop any attempts to cut them. This change in approach marks a departure from Biden's past attempts to work with Republicans, and could signal a more confrontational approach moving forward. Additionally, Biden's emphasis on industrial policy and antitrust, as well as his past engagement with China, may put him at odds with former President Trump on certain issues. Overall, Biden's speech and subsequent actions indicate a more assertive and less compromising approach to politics.

    • Biden's successful State of the Union speechDespite errors, Biden delivered a normal presidential speech, engaging audience and addressing policies, raising expectations and easing concerns about his capabilities

      Joe Biden's State of the Union speech was seen as a successful performance given the low expectations set by his past performances and the preceding presidency of Donald Trump. Despite some errors and stumbles, Biden was able to deliver a normal presidential speech for an hour, engage with the audience, and address Republican friends and Made in America policies. The bar for Biden's public performances has been set low, and every time he clears it, it is considered a win. However, concerns about Biden's age and capabilities remain, and the media and public continue to grade him on a curve relative to Trump. Overall, Biden's speech was seen as a step towards restoring a sense of normalcy in the political theater.

    • The Journey of a California Avocado: From Ideal Conditions to Your TableCalifornia avocados have a rich taste and texture due to ideal growing conditions and the dedication of local farmers. Try one while it's in season to connect with its origin story.

      The California avocado's rich and delicious flavor is a result of its ideal growing conditions and the dedication of local farmers. Listen to the MTV challenge podcast to learn more about this intriguing fruit. The California avocado's journey begins in idyllic conditions, where it is nurtured by rich soil, gentle rain, and friendly California sunshine. This unique environment allows the avocado to develop its distinct taste and texture. The farmers who grow these avocados are committed to responsible and sustainable practices. They understand that the best avocados come from California and take great care in ensuring their crops thrive. By opening up a California avocado, you're not just enjoying a tasty fruit, but also connecting with the story of its origin. So, make sure to try a California avocado while it's in season. Visit californiaavocado.com to learn more about the story behind this delicious fruit and where to find it.

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    The Inflation Story Has Changed Dramatically. Paul Krugman Breaks It Down.

    The Inflation Story Has Changed Dramatically. Paul Krugman Breaks It Down.

    In recent months, the story of the U.S. economy has changed significantly. The January Consumer Price Index showed that annual inflation slowed for the seventh straight month. That month, the economy also added over half a million jobs, and unemployment reached 3.4 percent, its lowest level since 1969. In light of these trends, comparisons to the 1970s stagflation crisis have weakened, and the possibility of a “soft landing” looks increasingly likely.

    But that doesn’t mean we’ve achieved victory. While the headline inflation numbers have looked promising, the devil is in the details. Answers to questions like how fast inflation has actually slowed, whether that slowdown will continue, how likely a future recession is, and how the Fed should act all next come down to which statistics and indicators you are looking at.

    So I decided to bring on the Times Opinion columnist and Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman to break down the data and what it says about inflation moving forward. We also discuss the debt ceiling crisis, why the Republican Party has failed to embrace a coherent economic agenda, whether the Biden administration’s industrial policy efforts could undermine its climate objectives, the 20th-century economics book that best explains why the United States has gotten so bad at building things, why Krugman — a longtime advocate of free trade — has come around to embrace greater protectionism, why he believes China’s economic ascendence is no longer inevitable, whether A.I. will replace huge numbers of white collar workers and more.

    Mentioned:

    Recession, Inflation or Soft Landing in 2023?”by Free Expression

    We’re Going to Miss Greed and Cynicism” by Paul Krugman

    The Rise and Decline of Nations by Mancur Olson

    Book Recommendations:

    Slouching Towards Utopia by J. Bradford DeLong

    How the War Was Won by Phillips Payson O’Brien

    Ninth House by Leigh Bardugo

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Sonia Herrero. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski.