307 Texas Pilatus PC-12 N188PC Crash and Vectors to Final

In this episode, Max discusses two Challenger jet crashes involving dual engine failures: one in Naples, FL, in February 2024 and another in Nebraska in 1994. The incidents share some similarities.

In the Naples crash, both engines experienced oil pressure warnings within seconds of each other before failing simultaneously. The preliminary report indicates the left landing gear touched down first, followed by the right, before the plane skidded into a concrete barrier. The cabin attendant facilitated passengers' safe evacuation through the tail compartment. The pilots, highly experienced, had a combined flight time of over 35,000 hours. The aircraft, with GE CF34 Series turbofan engines, underwent recent airworthiness inspections and was fuel-soaked post-crash, ruling out fuel exhaustion.

Further examination revealed thermal damage to engine components but no clear cause for the simultaneous engine failures. Discussion with an Challenger jet pilot who listens to the show recalled a similar incident involving a Challenger aircraft that also had a dual engine flameout in 1994.

That crash occurred during a positioning flight after passenger drop-off, after experiencing a dual engine flameout between FL370 and FL410. The aircraft sustained substantial damage during a forced landing at night in an alfalfa field.

Analysis revealed water contamination in the fuel, leading to the engines' failure. Both engines were sent for examination, showing consistent findings with fuel samples. The NTSB attributed the crash to inadequate planning, decision-making, and preflight inspections following fuel contamination.

Comparing the two crashes, both had simultaneous dual engine failures occurring around two hours into flight, and both had a yellow liquid in the fuel. At this point, the cause of the Naples crash is still unknown, though Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder analysis should provide new clues.

The episode underscores the importance of fuel contamination awareness, and the necessity for thorough preflight inspections and proper response to warning signs.

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Mentioned on the Show
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Host Max Trescott recounts his recent trip in the Vision Jet, a G1 version, with a Patreon supporter who is working towards his type rating. He also talks about the VNAV Direct vertical navigation feature that he rarely uses, but found helpful during the trip.

The journey involved flying from Oakland, California to Ann Arbor, Michigan and back, with several considerations such as runway lengths, weather patterns, and fuel efficiency. The decision to fly into Ypsilanti Airport instead of Ann Arbor Municipal Airport is made due to runway length and width concerns, as well as the desire for safer and more comfortable landing conditions.

The route planning involves optimizing for tailwinds and minimizing refueling stops. By analyzing weather patterns and selecting appropriate altitudes, they manage to reduce the trip to just two refueling stops instead of three, despite the longer route. They depart Oakland and encounter some weather challenges, including icing, which they manage safely. Utilizing various tools such as SiriusXM weather and Garmin G3000, they navigate through different altitudes and terrain, making adjustments to their flight plan as needed.

During the trip, they make stops at various airports, encountering different experiences such as efficient refueling processes at Mitchell, South Dakota, and challenges in verifying fuel availability at other airports. They also navigate through unforeseen weather changes, ensuring safety and efficiency throughout the trip.

The return trip involves rerouting due to weather forecasts, aiming to avoid strong headwinds. Max reflects on minor errors made during the journey, emphasizing the importance of staying alert and making quick adjustments when needed. Overall, the episode highlights the intricacies and considerations involved in planning and executing a long-distance flight in a Vision Jet, emphasizing safety, efficiency, and adaptability throughout the journey. Anyone interested in buying a Vision Jet or getting trained in one should contact Max directly.

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FAA Rotorcraft Collective YouTube Video Series

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Host Max Trescott delves into arrival procedures for instrument pilots, focusing on common issues and best practices. The host begins by emphasizing the importance of understanding and properly executing arrival procedures, which are often overlooked, especially for pilots not regularly flying into larger airports.

Arrival procedures, also known as Standard Terminal Arrival Routes (STARs), facilitate the transition from enroute structure to the terminal area, streamlining air traffic flow and reducing congestion. These procedures guide pilots to specific fixes or navigational aids, ensuring a seamless lateral and vertical transition. While some STARs are requested via flight plans, controllers may assign them as needed.

The episode provides a detailed analysis of the Fernando 7 arrival at Van Nuys Airport, highlighting its unique characteristics and naming conventions. It explains how STARs typically consist of multiple parts, including branches, common waypoints, and splits leading to different runways. Understanding these components is crucial for pilots to navigate the arrival effectively.

Max also offers practical tips for pilots, such as properly loading arrival procedures into flight management systems (FMS), checking for discontinuities in flight plans, and adhering to published speed and altitude restrictions. It addresses common challenges, such as handling last-minute runway changes, interpreting ATC clearances, and ensuring accurate navigation between transitions and approaches.

He also emphasizes the importance of thorough pre-flight preparation, including studying STAR charts and anticipating potential deviations from assigned procedures. Pilots are reminded to communicate effectively with ATC regarding their capabilities and intentions, especially when unable to meet published restrictions.

Overall, the episode provides valuable insights and guidance for instrument pilots, helping them navigate arrival procedures with confidence and precision while minimizing errors and deviations.

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Mentioned on the Show
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Host Max Trescott discusses the fatal crash of a Falcon jet in Georgia with aviation expert Rob Mark. The NTSB final report revealed a series of factors contributing to the accident. These included misreading a NOTAM regarding the ILS glideslope, difficulty entering the initial approach fix into the navigation system, high and fast arrival at the final approach fix, unauthorized use of airbrakes. It’s also possible that they didn’t realize the ILS approach required flying a procedure turn. They were also flying a black hole approach in dark night conditions with minimal ground lights, but apparently weren’t referencing the PAPI visual indicator.

The captain, aged 73, had extensive flight experience but had undergone retraining due to unsatisfactory performance in certain areas. The first officer, aged 63, had a significant number of flight hours, but received only a Second in Command (SIC) type rating, because of performance issues.

The podcast delves into the transcript of communications between the flight crew and Atlanta Center, highlighting confusion regarding NOTAMs and the approach procedure. The crew, flying a cargo route from El Paso to Thomson, Georgia, requested information on the ILS approach, but there was a misunderstanding regarding the status of the glideslope and localizer. The approach required a procedure turn, which the crew seemingly missed, leading to an unstable approach.

There were delays in programming the initial approach fix (IAF) into the navigation system, possibly due to confusion over the fix's identification. The crew ultimately crossed the IAF at an altitude significantly higher than prescribed, leading to a steep descent to intercept the glideslope.

Max created a software simulation of the final minutes of the flight that revealed a rapid descent rate and an unstable approach. Despite warnings from the captain about being high, attempts to correct the descent were ineffective, ultimately resulting in impact with trees just short of the runway. This was a classic black hole approach, in which there are few lights on the ground before the runway. A Boeing simulator study of a black hole approach showed that pilots consistently crash short of the runway, and so they must have either an electronic or visual glide slope. During this accident, the glide slope was out of service.

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Mentioned on the Show
#299 Flying Tips from a Military CFI for General Aviation
Google Podcasts is going away after March
Rob Mark’s JetWhine.com blog

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Max talks with Seth Lake about Vmc (Minimum Control Speed with the Critical Engine Inoperative) maneuvers, particularly focusing on their importance in multi-engine training. Seth also talks about the challenges and risks associated with VMC demonstrations and offers constructive suggestions for improving training practices in multi-engine aircraft.

Seth explains that Vmc is the minimum controllable airspeed of a multi-engine aircraft when the critical engine is inoperative, and the operative engine is at full power. The FAA mandates specific criteria for this maneuver, emphasizing the need for multi-engine pilots to understand how to control an aircraft during asymmetrical power events. VMC demonstrations are a crucial aspect of multi-engine training, requiring pilots to recover from a VMC condition during their practical tests.

The critical engine, which has the most adverse effect on the aircraft when inoperative, is typically determined by factors like P-factor, accelerated slipstream, spiraling slipstream, and torque. The interview delves into the intricacies of Vmc, including how manufacturers are allowed up to 150 pounds of rudder force for certification purposes, and highlights the challenges pilots face in maintaining control during a Vmc scenario.

Seth Lake describes an unscientific test he conducted using a force measurement tool in one of his aircraft, revealing the significant rudder forces required to hold coordinated flight in Vmc conditions. He also talks about altitude considerations during Vmc demonstrations.

The discussion then turns to the FAA's guidelines for the Vmc demonstration during commercial check rides, examining the specific setup and recovery procedures outlined in the ACS. He also mentions a potential contradiction in other FAA publications, such as the Practical Test Standards for multi-engine instructors, and the importance of understanding these nuances.

Seth also raises concerns about the inherent risks associated with Vmc demonstrations and suggests potential improvements to the current practices. He proposes an alternative method that involves holding the ailerons neutral, using full rudder deflection, and avoiding the five degrees of bank specified in the certification criteria. This alternative method aims to increase safety by reducing the likelihood of spins and providing a more realistic experience of loss of directional control.

The interview concludes with a discussion on the impact of passenger weight on the aircraft's center of gravity during Vmc demonstrations and highlights the need for careful considerations to enhance safety in these maneuvers.

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Mentioned on the Show
Incorrect Altitude Readback Leads To Near CFIT Incident
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Max's Interview on Dr. Scott Dennstaedt YouTube channel

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On the afternoon of Wednesday, 7 Dec, 2022. The Cincinnati, Ohio area had been IMC all day and a single engine aircraft, based at Hogan Field (KHAO) near Cincinnati was flying instrument approaches in IMC conditions with the help of Cincinnati Approach.   

The aircraft departed Hogan field, located under the northern portion of the Cincinnati Class Bravo, and its first two instrument approaches went relatively well. It flew to the southeast at 4000 feet, and was given vectors to the RNAV (GPS) 3 Right approach @ KLUK, which is Lunken Field. After flying a low approach to minimums, it flew north to fly the RNAV (GPS) runway 01 @ I68, which is the Warren country airport.

The aircraft again flew a low approach to minimums and departed to the south, with a plan to fly the RNAV (GPS) 29 back into Hogan Field. To do that, Cincinnati Approach issued a series of vectors, and ultimately told the aircraft to fly a heading of 260 and join the runway 29 approach course.

Later the controller said “You appear to be kind of all over the place.” Subsequently, the controller declared an emergency for the pilot. The pilot was unable to fly the next instrument approach, so the controller ended up talking him down through the clouds.

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Mentioned on the Show
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Max talks with Mark Kolber about Flying IFR in and out of Airports with no Instrument Approaches. Mark Kolber traces his expertise in aviation law to his background as a trial lawyer and a CFI. He emphasizes the importance of understanding rules, regulations, and procedures in IFR, highlighting that a significant portion of IFR involves adherence to regulations due to the potential impact on others.

The conversation delves into a specific scenario where a listener reports a Homeowners Association (HOA) planning to ban IFR departures from Sea Ranch, which is a private airport in Northern California. Mark clarifies that there is no regulatory prohibition for Part 91 pilots from taking off IFR from an airport without instrument approaches. He emphasizes that such departures are legal, citing examples of airports where IFR takeoffs occur regularly.

The discussion expands to explore the safety considerations associated with IFR departures in IMC from airports without instrument approaches. Mark references regulations like 91.175, which provides guidelines for IFR takeoff and landing, specifying stricter rules for landings compared to departures.

The conversation touches on the distinction between Part 91 and Part 135 operations. Mark explains that Part 135 imposes a direct prohibition on IFR operations from airports without approved standard instrument approach procedures. He highlights the role of Operational Specifications (OPSPEC) in allowing deviations from certain regulations for Part 135 operators.

Mark delves into the FAA's assessment of airports, particularly the evaluation of obstacle departure procedures (ODP) and how they contribute to safe departures. He explains the purpose of ODPs and the FAA's meticulous assessment process, emphasizing that private airports without instrument approaches lack such evaluations.

The podcast explores the concept of creating one's own ODP for airports lacking official assessments. Mark suggests relying on Electronic Flight Bags (EFB) with FAA databases, incorporating local knowledge, and assessing terrain and obstacles using available tools.

Mark clarifies that Part 91 pilots have the discretion to fly or not fly ODPs unless specifically assigned by ATC. For Part 135 pilots, adherence to ODPs is mandatory unless certain exceptions apply. The conversation briefly touches on filing IFR to private airports not in the FAA's database. Mark recommends using identifiers if available and provides insights into filing to and from using lat-long coordinates. In summary, the interview provides a comprehensive overview of IFR regulations, safety considerations, and the nuances surrounding departures and arrivals at airports without instrument approaches. The discussion is enriched by Mark Kolber's legal and aviation expertise, offering valuable insights for both pilots and aviation enthusiasts.

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Mentioned on the Show
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This episode explores the advancements in the Cirrus SR22 G7 aircraft, emphasizing avionics and general enhancements over its predecessor, the G6. To learn the features of the new Cirrus G7, you’ll want to purchase a copy of my Max Trescott’s G3000 and G5000 Glass Cockpit Handbook, which covers virtually all of the features you’ll find in the Perspective Touch+,used in the G7 and the SF50 Vision Jet.

Key features include automatic fuel tank alternation, borrowed from the Vision Jet, enhancing fuel management. The addition of a stick shaker provides tactile stall warnings, potentially improving safety. Avionics modifications, include a redesigned flap switch with safety features like flaps under speed and over speed protection.

The G7 includes a lighter lithium-ion starter battery and a push-button starter switch, inspired by the Vision Jet, streamlining the startup process. A new storage cubby below the autopilot and relocated user-friendly environmental controls enhance the overall experience. Improved accent lighting, color options, and exterior designs aim to elevate aesthetics and comfort. In avionics, the G7 features two large 14-inch displays with increased resolution and two touchscreen controllers with icons similar to those in Garmin GTN navigators. The Perspective Touch+ software aligns with Cirrus's strategy for a seamless transition from the SR22 to a Vision Jet. Other upgrades include 3D safe taxi, taxiway routing, and a Checklist Scroll Wheel for efficient checklist navigation. The redesign of the CAPS parachute handle placard and streamlined cockpit elements contribute to accessibility and user-friendliness. Overall, the Cirrus SR20 and SR22 G7 introduces a comprehensive set of enhancements for improved safety, user experience, and aesthetics.

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News Stories

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Mentioned on the Show
AOPA ASI's new Icing Video
Cirrus Icing Awareness Course
Pat Mullane's Learning to Fly Book

Max’s Books – Order online or call 800-247-6553 to order.
Max Trescott’s G3000 and G5000 Glass Cockpit Handbook
Max Trescott’s G1000 & Perspective Glass Cockpit Handbook

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Check out Max’s Online Courses: G1000 VFR, G1000 IFR, and Flying WAAS & GPS Approaches. Find them all at: https://www.pilotlearning.com/

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"Go Around" song used by permission of Ken Dravis; you can buy his music at kendravis.com

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Max talks about some recent VFR into IMC accidents and other weather-related loss of control accidents. VFR into IMC accidents continue to be a problem for us as GA pilots. Not only are there too many of them, but they also have the highest lethality rate of any accident type, as 90% of these accidents are fatal. They are unique to general aviation, as they are almost non-existent in airline flying. He also talks about how to calculate the bank angle required to get a standard rate turn.

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News Stories

• Japan Airlines plane collision at Tokyo's Haneda airport
• Drone hits helicopter near Daytona Beach
• Report says changes needed at FAA's air traffic controller training center
• Delta Cuts Training Goals In Half
• Oregon plane crash: pilot ignored instructor's advice
• Dual Engine Failure Leads To Off-Airport Landing
• Plane stolen from North Las Vegas airport

Mentioned on the Show
Palm Springs Air Museum

Max’s Books – Order online or call 800-247-6553 to order.
Max Trescott’s G3000 and G5000 Glass Cockpit Handbook
Max Trescott’s G1000 & Perspective Glass Cockpit Handbook

If you love the show and want more, visit my Patreon page to see fun videos, breaking news, and other posts in the Posts section. And if you decide to make a small donation each month,  you can get some goodies!

Free Index to the first 282 episodes of Aviation New Talk

So You Want To Learn to Fly or Buy a Cirrus seminars
Online Version of the Seminar Coming Soon – Register for Notification

Check out our recommended ADS-B receivers, and order one for yourself. Yes, we’ll make a couple of dollars if you do.

Get the Free Aviation News Talk app for iOS or Android.

Check out Max’s Online Courses: G1000 VFR, G1000 IFR, and Flying WAAS & GPS Approaches. Find them all at: https://www.pilotlearning.com/

Social Media
Like Aviation News Talk podcast on Facebook
Follow Max on Instagram
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Listen to all Aviation News Talk podcasts on YouTube or YouTube Premium

"Go Around" song used by permission of Ken Dravis; you can buy his music at kendravis.com

If you purchase a product through a link on our site, we may receive compensation.

Max talks about why controllers in the U.S. use vectors for approaches far more often than in other countries. He also shares listener feedback on why flying own navigation may be less work than getting vectors to final. He addresses misconceptions about the Activate Approach command and exactly what it does. He also talks about the importance of keeping your GPS navigator synch with your present position. He also talks about how to Activate a Leg of a flight plan and the four common errors he sees pilots make when activating a leg. He also reads listener email, including about how ATC issues headings to establish a track, not a heading, that’s less than 30 degrees from final approach course.

If you're getting value from this show, please support the show via PayPal, Venmo, the Cash app, Zelle or Patreon.

Support the Show by buying a Lightspeed ANR Headsets
Max has been using only Lightspeed headsets for nearly 25 years! I love their tradeup program that let's you trade in an older Lightspeed headset for a newer model. Start with one of the links below, and Lightspeed will pay a referral fee to support Aviation News Talk.
Lightspeed Delta Zulu Headset $1199
Lightspeed Zulu 3 Headset $899
Lightspeed Sierra Headset $699
My Review on the Lightspeed Delta Zulu

Send us your feedback or comments via email

If you have a question you’d like answered on the show, let listeners hear you ask the question, by recording your listener question using your phone.

News Stories

• SR22 Crashes at night in Texas
• Most Van’s Customers Agree To Price Increases
• The FAA wants your input on weather products
• Panel to review US air traffic controller fatigue
• Congress passes short-term FAA extension
• Pilot’s first time flying from the right seat goes awry
• Early Ice Fishing Bid Dunks 172
• Phone lines in the Grand Canyon being removed to improve aviation safety
• KY pilot pleads guilty to flying air ambulance while under influence of alcohol

Mentioned on the Show
FAA Weather Products survey
Channel 6 Action News Helicopter Crash
Christopher Cole's video about his Sunriver, OR crash
Rare Historical Photos Show The Inside Of The Hindenburg Zeppelin
Classic Learjet Foundation in Wichita, Kansas

Max’s Books – Order online or call 800-247-6553 to order.
Max Trescott’s G3000 and G5000 Glass Cockpit Handbook
Max Trescott’s G1000 & Perspective Glass Cockpit Handbook

If you love the show and want more, visit my Patreon page to see fun videos, breaking news, and other posts in the Posts section. And if you decide to make a small donation each month,  you can get some goodies!

Free Index to the first 282 episodes of Aviation New Talk

So You Want To Learn to Fly or Buy a Cirrus seminars
Online Version of the Seminar Coming Soon – Register for Notification

Check out our recommended ADS-B receivers, and order one for yourself. Yes, we’ll make a couple of dollars if you do.

Get the Free Aviation News Talk app for iOS or Android.

Check out Max’s Online Courses: G1000 VFR, G1000 IFR, and Flying WAAS & GPS Approaches. Find them all at: https://www.pilotlearning.com/

Social Media
Like Aviation News Talk podcast on Facebook
Follow Max on Instagram
Follow Max on Twitter
Listen to all Aviation News Talk podcasts on YouTube or YouTube Premium

"Go Around" song used by permission of Ken Dravis; you can buy his music at kendravis.com

If you purchase a product through a link on our site, we may receive compensation.