#42: Tips for Less Stress & More Peace this Holiday

Are you curious about polyamory? If you want to see if it's right for you, or if you simply want to understand why others would want to explore a different relationship structure, this episode is for you. 

Dr. Leanna Wolfe’s sex research was spirited by coming of age in the thick of the 1970s sexual revolution and feminist movement in the San Francisco Bay Area. Her curiosities and academic appetites led her engage in field research in Mexico, Africa, India and Papua New Guinea, earning an MA in Anthropology from the New School for Social Research and a PhD in Sexology from the Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. From 1980 to 2018 she worked as a university professor teaching and researching topics ranging from orgasm, multiple partner sexualities and sexual assault. In 2016 she launched Wise Woman Sex and Relationship Consulting, providing counseling through her unique lens of Sexual Anthropology.

Learn more about Leanna:

Book: 177 Lovers and Counting: My Life as a Sex Researcher

25% Discount Code: RLFANDF25

Website: http://wisewomansexandrelationshipconsulting.com/

 

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com

Instagram: @theloveandconnectioncoach

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

Episode:

Karin: Hello, everybody. I am really excited about this episode. Today we are going to be talking about polyamory, and I've been wanting to find a guest to come on and talk about this subject for many reasons, but mostly because I've had quite a few clients bring this up to me or approach me as wanting to some coaching around this topic, and I've learned quite a bit about it over the years, starting when I was a therapist in private practice and a man saw me for a few sessions and he had an open relationship. And at the time I didn't know a lot about it, but I was fortunate that I had a supervisor during that time who did, and so I started learning about it, and yet I still wouldn't necessarily call myself an expert, and I wanted to have someone on to talk about this subject who really had some deep knowledge, and I was glad I waited for the right person. So my guest today is Dr. Leanna Wolf, and she is a sex and relationship specialist. And she started out as an anthropologist studying different kinds of relationship structures. And so she has a really good understanding of social, cultural, and family structures, and she understands sexuality, gender, marriage, partnering patterns, all of that kind of stuff. And she comes to it from a really non judgmental place. So she's got a lot to offer us on this episode. She also has a book, if you want to check it out, called the 177 Lovers and counting my life as a sex researcher, and I'm super excited to check it out. She also is offering listeners of this podcast a 25% discount. So if you want to get that discount code, you can go to the show notes and get that. Also, I just want to say that this episode is really great for people who are curious and might want to explore polyamory. It's also great for people who just want to understand it a little bit better and maybe think that it sounds a little scary or weird or whatever it is, we really cover a lot of terrain in this episode, so I hope you like it, I hope you'll share it, and thanks for being here.

 

Karin: Welcome, Leanna.

[03:10] Leanna: Thank you.

[03:11] Karin: It's great to have you here. So tell us where you are in the world.

[03:14] Leanna: I'm in Van Nuys, which is part of Los Angeles, and I'm in a private home that I've had for a number of years, and underfoot are a couple of dogs and a number of cats. Nice. I love it. Great.

[03:34] Karin: Well, what brought you to that area?

[03:36] Leanna: Well, I been teaching anthropology at one of the local community colleges, and I needed to find my own home, and this house was for sale, and it was close to the school, and I thought, hey, that'll work. And I continued to teach and have students come by here for events for quite a few years, and then eventually I'd had enough of teaching, and I kept the house because it was a great place to have my animals. And I've been involved with studying and looking at and experiencing polyamory for a long time. But I must say, somebody once pointed this out to me, and it's quite true, is that I'm probably more poly with animals than with people.

[04:35] Karin: I love it.

[04:37] Leanna: I have my dog, and then I have a tenant who brought in a dog, and so we have senior dog care here, daycare for senior dogs. And then I adopted two cats a couple of years ago, and I tried to keep them outside, but they would have nothing of it. And after about a year, I just opened up all the doors, and then two of the semi feral cats who had been living in my yard started coming inside regularly, so now they sleep inside, along with my slightly more domesticated cats. And I have two additional tenants. So it's three humans and four cats and two dogs.

[05:27] Karin: So there's never a dull moment, it sounds.

[05:30] Leanna: Oh, no, there's always animals to analyze and people's projects to discuss. Everybody here is involved in some kind of arts and creativity, and so it's been a good place.

[05:46] Karin: Nice. Well, tell us what you do for work.

[05:50] Leanna: At present, I'm super busy promoting my new book, which came out quite recently. It's called 177 Lovers and Counting. My life as a sex researcher. And this came out of teaching anthropology, where I was teaching a course called gender, sex, and culture. And one of the class assignments was to do one sex history. And I realized in teaching it and in looking over my students histories, that I really should do my history too. And as I started doing it, I faced that so much of my life had been that of a sex researcher, where I wanted to find out everything. Whether I was going to incorporate it into my own personal life or practices was irrelevant to finding out about it. So that's what I ended up with in my history, was a huge amount of observation, a huge amount of research, and some of the observation was participant observation, where I personally had to experience it in my body or interact with folks that were part of a particular lifestyle that interested me. Yeah, the book has taken up a lot of time, both in thinking through it, writing it, designing it, getting it published by Roman and Littlefield, and now promoting it. And one of my methods of promotion, which has been so fun, has been doing a solo show. So I took some of the funniest and most poignant parts of the book and made it into an hour long show. And I've been performing it at theater festivals and at professional conferences and anywhere where they'll have me perform. So that's been just great. As for making money, we hear that the book is selling pretty well, and I certainly sell a bit of copies of the book after performances. And then I have a practice. It's basically a sex and relationship consulting and counseling practice where I work with individuals who are trying to make sense of such things as identity, sexuality, and partnering patterns, especially things like polyamory. And so, as it is, I did a doctoral dissertation on polyamory and jealousy back in 2003, and I have taken all that research and made a living off of it in helping other people make sense of the very invented and intriguing and ethically honest culture of polyamory.

[09:19] Karin: So many people don't know a lot about polyamory, but I think there's also a fascination with it. How did you decide to learn about polyamory? I mean, was that the goal, or did you start out in anthropology and then you ended up getting more interested in learning?

[09:36] Leanna: It's a complicated story, and I'd love to tell you all about it. Back in my early mid twenty s, I was living in New York, and I ran into a woman in my neighborhood who told me that she was living with two guys, and this must have been like the late seventy s. And I just thought that was so weird that I had to find out more, out more about it. And at some point after that, I was in a relationship that was open because we just did not want to control each other. And moreover, I'd had a previous lover who I wanted to keep seeing, though I was never going to be living with him. And so I was part of an ad hoc polyamory lifestyle before it really had that name. And then as for how I got involved in what's called polyamory today is, I guess, in the early ninety s, was when polyamory got a name. And I got involved with some of the folks who were part of the early movement to educate and generate theory and practice around polyamory, including Deborah Annapole and Ryan Nearing. And I published some articles in their magazines and spoke at their conferences. They had a conference called loving more, and I would offer research there and then. It was in the late ninety s. My partner, unbeknownst to me, got involved with someone else, and he believed that I was involved with somebody, even though I wasn't. But he really wanted to have this woman in his life, and thus in my life, because he didn't want to end our partnership and at a loss for how to share him with another woman, I went to Africa, where there was a long standing tradition of polygamy, or largely their polygony, one husband and multiple wives. And so everybody I met in Africa, whether they were taking me on a safari drive or letting me stay in their house or whatever it was, I asked them, how am I supposed to share my partner with this other woman? And so I came with such a need for help that they felt that kind of like we were on equal grounds. I was needing their help, and they tried to offer it to me. But they would also say, you know, you have divorce in your country. You don't have to put up with this. You have an education. You could earn a living. You don't need your husband's money. You're not in the same situation that we're in.

[13:08] Karin: So their reasons for it are different.

[13:11] Leanna: Yeah. And then around that same time, President Clinton's affair with Monica Lewinsky was getting major attention worldwide. And these folks were giving me their opinions and they were saying things. Know, the president only has one daughter, and maybe his wife Hillary doesn't have the capacity to get pregnant. Know, this girl Monica looks young and fertile. She should be able to have a son for the president. This man has no sons. All he has is one daughter who's going to carry on his legacy. So these were very practical and fascinating observations that they shared with me. That to me, really exposed the weirdness of my culture, because for them, if a man added another wife, he continued to be with his wives that he already had. He wasn't leaving behind those women. He continued to support them. The children that he had with them continued to live with him. And it made divorce here in the western world seem so horribly messy and dark for children as well as for wives that continued to need assistance. And so that layer too was just utterly useful and of course, fascinating for me as product of western culture. So I took all that research and wrote an essay called adding a co wife, and I compared what was going on in Africa to what was going on in my life. And that essay got published in many anthropology and polyamory journals. And I presented the findings at quite a few conferences. And some of that set of thinking and writing and such is part of one of my chapters in my book, because that was certainly part of my sex research.

[15:32] Karin: And then, of course, polyamory in north american culture and european culture is different than.

[15:40] Leanna: What did you say? Polygamy? Is that what you call one husband and many wives, or polyandry with one wife and multiple husbands? Yeah. So here in the western world, it's very different because it's not resource based the way it is in Africa and New guinea, where also did some research and contexts like that, where the wealthier men are considered more desirable husbands because they can fund the education of their children and give them more opportunities. So women are happy to marry into a substantial man's household rather than to partner with a young man who doesn't own anything and have anything financially to offer. In the western world, it's very emotion based, and people get involved with somebody because they experience usually something that's referred to as NRE or new relationship energy, or what relationship psychologists might think of as the attraction phase of romantic love, where someone is so compelled about a new person that they must spend time with them. And so what polyamorouss often struggle with is how to sustain their home or ongoing relationships that are not so full of passion as they once were while enjoying the intense passion of someone new.

[17:27] Karin: So how would you define polyamory?

[17:30] Leanna: Well, this is really a fun question, because when I did research on polyamory, and I did quite a bit, as I may have mentioned, my doctoral dissertation was on polyamory and jealousy. And when we did surveys, everyone had a different definition because these were very self styled people who were each doing it in their unique way, and these ways were certainly co creations based on who their partners were. But generally, polyamory is consensual, non monogamy, meaning that folks are not trying to be emotionally or erotically monogamous with one person. They're open to having that be with more than one. And it can involve in terms of, let's say, one couple where they could be monopoly, where one person does not want to have outside lovers, but accepts that their partner does. More often, it's a situation where both partners, let's say, if they're couple based, are being poly and entertaining additional lovers. And so this is one style which involves a couple being the kind of what is often referred to as hierarchical polyamory. Because they're living together, they may be married, and they think of polyamory as an add on to what they have with each other. Now, there are other folks who are much more drawn to a more communal form of polyamory, often referred to as a polycule or practicing something called kitchen table polyamory, where a group of folks are all committed to each other and don't necessarily think of one person as being more important to them than any other person. And so their commitment is to the whole group or the whole polycule. There's also folks who are aligned with something that's called solo polyamory, where they don't have the goal of sharing a home or a home life with another person. So at that level, their primary relationship is with each other, with themselves, rather. And nonetheless, they're different than being single and dating, in that people who are single and dating typically have the goal of finding one other person to be their partner and then become monogamous with them. But if you're solo, Polly, you have no such goal like that. You simply are in integrity with all the folks you're dating or partnered with.

[20:43] Karin: And so that seems like a really important word that you just used. There is integrity, and I see that is such an important part of this kind of relationship structure. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[20:57] Leanna: Yeah. Well, basically, what goes on with folks who are committed to integrity is being truthful as much as each other wants to be truthful. They may have a don't ask, don't tell an understanding, but nonetheless, they are not keeping secrets from each other about their dreams, activities, et cetera. They are living in honesty and transparency as best as each of them or all of them want to do.

[21:37] Karin: Yeah. And so that brings up for me something that you also mentioned that you looked at for your dissertation, and that is jealousy. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who are listening now going, oh, my gosh, I could never do that. I would just feel so jealous. So what can you tell us about that?

[21:54] Leanna: Right. Well, basically, what I came to see is that polyamory is an invented culture. All cultures, to some extent, of course, are invented, but polyamory is very specifically invented at the level of engaging a concept called conversion, where one has the goal of feeling positive about their partner getting love, attention, and sexual ecstasy from others. And that it's like akin to like, you're really happy if your kids graduate from high school and become valedictorians or get into exciting colleges, or you're happy if your friend gets cast as a leading role in a play or whatever it may be. So here you're happy that your partner has other partners that are bringing them pleasure. And so it sounds like this is a really hard thing for most people to swallow. When I've done research with people who are not signed on to polyamory, this thing is just untenable. It's nothing that they would ever want to do or hear about. But for people who embrace the integrity notion of polyamory, they get themselves to embrace conversion and to find value in this. Now, there's certainly folks who just love the thought of their partner being sexually exciting to other people. And this can take the form of swinging, where they could go to play parties together and watch their partner be engaged by others, or engage their partner along with someone else or several someone else's. And this could elevate their partner's desirability, since other people want them.

[23:59] Karin: So what it really sounds like is that polyamory isn't necessarily for everybody, and that that's okay.

[24:05] Leanna: Oh, absolutely. And at different times in people's lives, it may be more valuable than at other times. And it's really interesting how this value of it can change. Some of it is simply situational, where at sometimes one has more than one person that they want to be in partnership with, and sometimes it may have to do with whatever else they're focusing on. Let's say they're focusing on building a family. Maybe they just want to do that in a monogamous context and don't really want to have other people involved in raising their kids. Or maybe they do, and they think that a village would be useful in helping to raise their children. It could be also a time of life situation where many older folks are finding that there aren't very many men left who behave in ways that they find appropriate. So they're happy to share the remaining men with all the women who would like access to some amount of male companionship. One thing that's really unique about poly is the issue of disclosure, because what's a much more common practice amongst humans is cheating. And cheating has been around forever, and humans are not a monogamous species but with cheating, one doesn't hear about it, one doesn't see it, or not supposed to. And it's not supposed to disrupt the primary relationship or the family life of the couple. And it's just seen as something, typically for women, where they're getting some level of attention that they're often not getting from their home partners anymore. Or for men, more often than not, it's to engage in erotic activities that their home partner may not be interested in.

[26:20] Karin: And how would you differentiate polyamory from swinging?

[26:25] Leanna: Swinging is largely about recreational staff, and so folks retain a primary social economic partnership with their spouse, and that is never seen as up for grabs. They're not like hoping to find a third or fourth person to share their emotional, social, or financial lives. They simply engage in swinging for the pleasure of recreational sex. And the thing that can happen is swingers can become really good friends with each other and see each other on a regular basis, and ultimately become kind of, from the outside, appear polyamorous because they're with the same group for so many years, but nonetheless, their goal isn't to share finances or to live altogether.

[27:33] Karin: And so for those who are practicing polyamory, there's also a bit of a structural difference in how they, there could.

[27:40] Leanna: Be just depending on, because a number, at different times, polyamory has had different popular goals. One popular goal had been finding a unicorn, which was basically a bisexual woman who would join a couple and become a member of their family and live with them and do everything socially and sexually together.

[28:10] Karin: That's interesting. I'd never heard that term.

[28:12] Leanna: Oh, that's so funny.

[28:13] Karin: Okay. I mean, I'd heard unicorn in other contexts, but never in this one.

[28:17] Leanna: So that's interesting.

[28:19] Karin: So who typically initiates this? So let's say there's a heterosexual couple, and they decide to pursue polyamory. Is it often the woman or the man who says, brings this up?

[28:36] Leanna: This is an interesting thing, because a lot of what happens with people who are drawn to polyamory is they do a whole lot of processing, a whole lot of reading, whole lot of thinking about it, which is extremely different than people who cheat, who basically meet someone who is attractive to them, who maybe they meet them when they're at a professional conference, or on a vacation, or at a bar or wherever one meets someone who they want to kick it up with. And polyamory is not so playful or intention or spontaneous. In the research I did on people practicing polyamory, they did not have very many partners in a given year. Like when I asked how many partners did you have this year? And it was like two. Their home partner and someone else that they were trying to have a poly relationship with, where someone who's single and dating and meeting different people and trying them out might have quite a few more partners in a given year, and someone who is up for cheating might have quite a few more partners. And certainly swingers who enjoy play parties and whatever orgy ish activities happen, there may have quite a few more partners. So the poly folks are really much more into processing and trying to make it right and to be ethical and all the rest of it. So where do they meet each other? There's some poly dating sites. There's poly meetups. There's poly conferences, though. So often these places, like the conferences and the meetups, they're often told, this is a safe place and don't try to take hit on people here, because they're just here to learn and share. So the thing is that that's kind of traditionally how polyamory in the last 2030 years has been practiced. But one thing that's happening right now is polyamory has actually hit the mainstream media in a big know. We've seen cover stories in New York magazine. We've had the Atlantic write big feature articles on it. The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times have discussed it extensively to the point where many folks just think it's a relationship option and they could just go out and start doing it. And that's why I have such a big counseling practice, because quite a few people will just think they can just go out and do it, and they don't really have the community that folks have had with their meetups and their conferences and all the rest of it. So this is something that's been a pretty unique thing.

[32:21] Karin: Yeah, I remember hearing people say, oh, well, polyamory is something that guys usually want to do because they want to have more sex, but that's not it at all.

[32:33] Leanna: No, that would be cheating.

[32:38] Karin: But it's not even necessarily guy the man who initiates it. Oftentimes it's the woman who initiates it.

[32:46] Leanna: Right? Well, sure, that could be true, or it could be a conversation. And oftentimes what initiates it is someone through business or pleasure, meeting an attractive other person and wanting to get to know that person and wanting to do it in an ethical way, because that option exists through polyamory. Traditionally, polyamory was not a known or practiced activity. So people who wanted to engage someone that they met would basically cheat or perhaps engage in swinging if their partner was up for recreational sex as well. So suddenly we have all these folks who are trying to be ethical about what other times would have simply been managed through cheating. And it's taken forms like calling their relationship a don't ask, don't tell agreement, or claiming that they're monogamish, where they're basically committed to, I guess what we would call hierarchical polyamory, where they're maintaining their primary relationship, but allowing incidental, erotic and friendship, and potentially emotionally valuable relationships as well.

[34:22] Karin: Okay, so if someone decides that they really want to look into this, they've done some research, and they want to have a conversation with their partner about initiating polyamory or inviting that into their relationship, what are some recommendations that you would have for them?

[34:40] Leanna: Well, basically to realize that whatever they think they want in terms of rules, is likely to change along the way. And people will come up with all kinds of rules that I at some point, started calling poly armory because basically their desire was to keep things safe and to make sure that they maintained health and the integrity of their home relationship, and they didn't just sacrifice things that they had spent all this time building up. So the kinds of things that people might negotiate around or agree to in terms of rules and boundaries and such, are certainly to let each other know where they are. So if they're not going to be coming home, to let them know that they're not coming home. And some people have all kinds of additional things where they would let the person know exactly where they are in terms of gps apps and such. There could be an agreement around that they must use condoms with people that are not their primary partner or not part of their primary partnership, if it's several people, in that it could involve no sleepovers, it could involve not going out in public in their shared community. There could be all kinds of things having to do with safety, security, reputation. And then eventually 1 may decide that some of these rules are not necessary because they feel that there's enough trust and the relationship isn't endured, and they may loosen up about these things.

[36:55] Karin: So it sounds like, at least in the beginning, it's good to have a bunch of rules and some structure to it to make sure that there are no misunderstandings or like that they're approaching.

[37:09] Leanna: It from being a committed couple who's opening up to polyamory.

[37:14] Karin: Yes.

[37:15] Leanna: And I someone who presents as solo Polly, then that's completely different, because they don't have anybody to report to. It's just up to them how they present themselves to others, they still may certainly want to have agreements around or practices regarding safe sex, clear emotional communication, everything else to assure that everybody is comfortable and as much as possible on the same page about it.

[38:00] Karin: And are there situations or reasons that some people have for wanting to pursue polyamory where you would say, nah, might not be a good idea, or it's not likely to really work very well?

[38:16] Leanna: It really depends on the folks and the level of communication that they think is the right amount. So some people just don't like to process very much. They want to be impulsive. And so their style of polyamory would be quite different from folks who really need to clear things with everyone. There's just a huge amount of variance. And as for when it's a good idea and when it's not a good idea, that, again, is very situational. Like, let's say a couple is trying to get pregnant. They should not be having sex with other people if they want to make sure that they're the ones who are creating the new baby, because that would be like opening it up to the possibility that the new baby might not be from the guy unless they're okay with that. But certainly that's one thing. It also just depends on how busy they are. Like, if people who are really busy with maybe multiple employment and running a household and raising kids may not have a lot of time to pursue extracurricular interests, where people who are much less busy in this regard, this may be a good activity for them to fill up their time and gift and have various people to enjoy in as deep a way as they might. Another factor is money, because depending on what people agree to, dating isn't necessarily cheap. So, like, if a guy is wanting to date multiple women, and he has a home relationship and a family.

[40:25] Karin: How.

[40:26] Leanna: Much can he afford to spend on additional women? And is it okay with his wife, let's say that he spends some of her money on these additional women. Yeah.

[40:41] Karin: I'm also thinking about the situation where one member of a couple says they want to try this out, and the other one is reluctant, but agrees because they're afraid of losing that of their partner.

[40:55] Leanna: Yeah, that's definitely a thing. There's so many uncertainties in this because the person who's agreeing to it isn't necessarily interested in it. They just don't want to lose the primary relationship. And I've had clients come in with these kinds of dilemmas, and to some extent, sometimes they just believe in the idea or the concept of freedom, and they don't even have anyone to act it out with, but they just don't like the idea that they would be limited. And I've seen folks break up over different ideologies, not even actually having sex with anybody new, but just that they have the idea that they might want to, because it's really different if you decide that you want to be sexually and emotionally and financially exclusive, and you value that as part of a lifestyle, and that's very different than someone who doesn't, even if that person never acts on it, nonetheless, that's what they believe.

[42:23] Karin: Yeah. And I can imagine that the person who doesn't believe might be imagining them getting really jealous.

[42:31] Leanna: Yeah. They would just get jealous at the possibility that their partner is open to meeting someone else. And I think the bottom line is we don't own anybody. And the idea that if someone says, I am a free spirited being and I don't want anyone shackling me emotionally or sexually, so don't think that you can.

[43:03] Karin: Yeah. And yet there are those. I think this is just really scary.

[43:09] Leanna: Oh, it is. It's hugely scary. Because what can happen is that one's partner could get involved with somebody who feels very compelling because they're new, they're different. Maybe they have a chemistry with them that's quite potent, and they feel left out in the cold. And no matter how much their partner may profess that they still love them, they don't feel it. They don't feel that they're really at the same status as they used to be.

[43:47] Karin: Yeah. And we could go down that road. But I want to make sure to ask, what are some pitfalls to avoid for those who are considering this? I'm specifically thinking about couples who are already in a long term relationship who decide to give this a try.

[44:04] Leanna: Well, one of the things to really think about is to make sure if you have kids at home, that someone is always home with the kids and that you both don't have date nights on the same night.

[44:16] Karin: Take some coordination.

[44:17] Leanna: Yeah. And the same time is, ideally for people without kids. They might want to have their date nights on the same night so that nobody has felt abandoned because each of them has someone to be with. There's certainly safety issues in terms of who else everybody else is sleeping with. And both if someone's new partner has a jealous husband or wife, that could be very unsafe. And then certainly STD issues and Covid issues are all important to consider. So obviously, if you want to do polyamory, you have to really want to do it because there's a lot on the line in terms of just health, communication, physical safety, in integrity of the home life, all of that. The same time, there's a big dream of not living so isolated. Because traditionally humans lived in bands and tribes where we lived in company with many others. And the idea of this isolated nuclear family, where each person has this whole professional life or work life outside of the house, and it's a very lonely living context. And the idea of living with others whom one is emotionally and sexually invested in could be very pleasurable.

[46:14] Karin: And it seems like those who do this well are really good communicators. Really need to be very clear and open the whole way through.

[46:25] Leanna: Yeah, and humans aren't necessarily trained to be really good at this or necessarily trained to be very good at sex. It's really interesting because there's these traditional cultures that we anthropologists study, where slightly older folks initiate the adolescence into showing them how their bodies work erotically, at least in terms of the discoveries of that culture. And there's cultures where a young man is chastised for not being able to bring his girlfriend to orgasm because he's been trained how to do this. And the girlfriend will report to the community that he didn't do it right. Pressure so private about all of this. And we don't have any particular mode, at least in mainstream culture, of training people about what their erotic potential might be. And as for processing difficult feelings, again, we may go to psychotherapists to try to do this, but many folks aren't necessarily skilled in talking through difficult things. It may be easier for them to talk behind someone's back than to their face.

[47:52] Karin: Well, if there is one thing you'd really like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be?

[47:59] Leanna: That life's an adventure and one shouldn't limit themselves to one lifestyle or sexuality. And that our lives have the potential of being very rich in terms of who we're open to meeting, that adventures, we're open to engaging. And just because something looks scary or sounds uncertain, or you've heard from other people that it's a bunch of trouble, it doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a try.

[48:43] Karin: And what role does love play in the work that you do?

[48:47] Leanna: Love is hugely important, both to me and to humans. When you're in the thick of at least the attraction phase of romantic love, when your brain is producing high levels of dopamine and noraepinephrine, you are just ecstatic. And it becomes like what life is for is to access these states and I know sometimes we access these states through religion or through other intense physical activity. But ecstatic states are hugely important to punctuating our lives with pleasure. And certainly that releases the feeling of love, and that's one kind of love. But truly, there's so many kinds of love. There's love of friends, there's deep love of a partner, there's love for one's children, there's love for parents. We are a bonding species, and in our bonding, we generate love.

[50:03] Karin: Wonderful. And how can people learn more about you and your book?

[50:10] Leanna: Oh, well, you could go to my website. I have a website called wisewomansexandrelationshipconsulting.com, because at some point along the way, I was no longer a young woman, so I had to be a wise woman. So that has all kinds of information about things I've written and about how to get in touch with me if one wants to book sessions. And there's a link to my book on the front of the website as well. And if you just want to chase down the book, the book is all over the Internet. It's called, again, 177 lovers and counting. My life as a sex researcher, and I'm sure you want to know how I got to 177. And actually, it was kind of a funny situation, because I had stopped teaching, and I had joined a daytime writing group, and the folks in the group were a bit older than I was and had not grown up the way I'd grown up. I grew up or came of age in the thick of the sexual revolution in Berkeley. And my first relationship was immediately in an open relationship. And so it went. And the folks in the group had lived very different lives. They maybe had married their high school sweetheart, or they were in an arranged marriage. And so I could tell they really wanted a number. And so I just made up that number for them because I like the sound of it. And it was probably fairly accurate, because the truth is, if you've been single and trying out different folks, if you've done a bit of swinging, if you've had open relationships eventually and you've been around for a while, you're going to rack up some numbers if you're playful and fun and reasonably engaging. And so that's what happened to me. And unfortunately, the group leader thought I was being provocative and basically not being a good member of the group. And she, soon after that, asked me to leave. So I had to find other community. But I loved that title, and so I stuck with it, and my publisher loved it, too. Yeah. So you just probably could google 177 lovers and my first name and track down the book. It's on Amazon. My publisher is Roman and Littlefield, but there's many, many vendors for the book.

[53:04] Karin: Well, leanna, thank you so much for.

[53:06] Leanna: Taking the time to talk with us today.

[53:08] Karin: This was a really fun conversation.

[53:10] Leanna: It was. Thank you so much.

OUTRO

[53:13] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

 

Learn what it takes to change a relationship dynamic and improve a marriage in this conversation with Amrit Singh. Amrit has been studying Kundalini Yoga for over 30 years which gives him the ability to deeply understand and connect with his clients. In 1999 Amrit Singh decided to move to India to deepen his exploration of yoga and meditation. After 20 years in India, he recently moved to Valle de Bravo in Mexico. During all these years his true passion has always been in helping people through individual and group coaching, with a special focus men and their relationships. 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

Karin: Welcome, Amrit.

[01:43] Amrit: Thanks for having me.

[01:44] Karin: Yeah, I'm glad we could make this happen. I know we had to reschedule once, but glad we could finally get it done. So tell us where you are in the world.

[01:53] Amrit: I'm in Mexico, near Mexico City, up in the mountains. 6000ft with beautiful spring weather all year round. So it's like beautiful 75 degrees all year. It's perfect place to live. Highly recommend it to move to Mexico.

[02:12] Karin: I tell you, that is so tempting. As someone who's just been through a horrible winter in Portland, Oregon and the US, that sounds awfully tempting. Yes. So tell me what brought you there because I know that you are quite the international traveler.

[02:31] Amrit: Yeah, my wife is mexican and she left Mexico when she was 17 and never really been back to live here. And that was always one of her dreams for her kids to experience that and to just be in the culture here in Mexico. And it's so different. Right? So we lived in India for 20 years and that was certainly different. And then after we left India, we went to Germany because we're like, okay, we got the whole world open. What are we going to do? For some reason we thought Germany would be nice. We went there in the summer, which is one of the things. It was beautiful and everything so lush. And she very quickly realized that she was missing this close connection of friends and community and the open hearts. And then Covid hit and just made everything worse. And so the first moment we had a chance, we packed up and ran.

[03:26] Karin: And you've got two. So that really was an adjustment. It was very. Right?

[03:32] Amrit: Yeah. Oh, was huge. I mean, the shift between India and Germany was already massive. And then to come to Mexico was just another level to, you know, fun and bet.

[03:46] Karin: I bet. So tell us what you do for work.

[03:50] Amrit: I'm a life coach, and I focus on working with men who are struggling in their marriages because I found that so many of my individual clients who were men were saying, like, oh, I'm doing great with this and that I'm doing good in my health, I'm doing good in my business. But the one thing which I just can't figure out is how to get along with my wife. And I love her. We've been together for 20 years, but I'm seeing this drift apart. And so I did a lot of work one on one with my male clients on that, and it changed their lives because it was just so profound to have some simple tools on how to communicate, do some things you would never do if you were married to another guy, but if you're married to a woman, so you do some other things. And we just had huge success. And so I came up with this program to work with men in a group setting where we're all supporting each other. And it's been amazing. I mean, really rewarding work.

[04:56] Karin: And, of course, I'm a big proponent of men's groups. So I love that we get to talk more about this, but perhaps you can tell us first a little bit about what brought you to say coaching.

[05:11] Amrit: Well, it's interesting because when I look back on my life now, I've been coaching people since I'm 15. I just didn't know I was coaching people. And I always had little meetings here and there with the people I was working with. When I was in India, worked at an international boarding school. I worked with a lot of the kids there in that way. And I always realized that I like the difference between being a teacher towards being a coach. And I like being a coach much better because a coach asks questions and lets you find your answers. A teacher tells you what you should think and what the answers are, and it doesn't really matter what you're thinking. So when I really went into it full time now, a couple of years ago, I had so much fun with it. And that was the best part for me. That was, for me, the reminder of, you're going in the right direction, and this just has to build up, and it takes time, but it's just what I enjoy doing.

[06:13] Karin: And the men that come to you, you said that they feel like they're drifting apart from their partners and they need some communication tools. What else are they seeking?

[06:24] Amrit: They're seeking this connection. They are seeking intimacy again, because that's one of the first things that goes out the window. And they just want to be happy and enjoy and really show up as a more authentic version of themselves. They don't know that quite yet. When they come to me, they come to me as, oh, I want to save my marriage. But really what we're working on is, how can you be happier with yourself? How can you show up more authentically as a true version of yourself, where you're radiant, where you're happy, where you're fulfilled, and guess what? Your partner will be excited in wanting to be in a relationship with you because you are in this state of radiance and happiness, and that's a person someone else wants to be with. And it's not so much about what can I do to change my partner, but what can I do to change myself so I'm happier, I'm more fulfilled. And then that just ripples through the relationship. And then after six to eight weeks, they come to me and they're like, oh, my God, my wife changed. She's doing things differently. And it's like, yeah, this was the miracle.

[07:40] Karin: And, yeah, you know, the truth of it, it's really that they, that not their wives, that have changed to a.

[07:47] Amrit: Certain degree, the wife does start changing, and it is so powerful to watch because now suddenly she's around this really upbeat, positive, high spirit guy who is, like, asking her for her needs and what she wants and what's important to her and takes her out for dates and does the right things, and she gets inspired by it, and she wants to just also raise her vibration. And so then it becomes this Tita Todd a game, right, where both just start expanding, and then they suddenly look at it and say, like, oh, my God, my relationship hasn't been this good since the kids were born.

[08:25] Karin: Yeah. And yes, when you changed part of a system, the whole system changes, but you're really starting with the man who's coming to see you. And I think that's where a lot of people don't understand the value of working on a relationship when it's just one person initially doing the work. And yet when that one person starts working on themselves, it really does have a big effect on everything else in their life, too, right?

[08:56] Amrit: Yeah, huge ripple effect. And it goes into everything, and then from there, it expands in their work, into their business, into their health journey, into their spiritual discovery. I mean, it just ripples everywhere because it all starts with you yourself. And sometimes people have this misconception where they think, oh, a marriage should be 50 50, right? I did my 50%, and now she has to do her 50%. And if she only does 49, then I'm going to be upset. But it's a little bit like if you're on a football team and you're playing with your other players, you're not just going to play at 50% because someone is not going all out, right? You're going to give it your 100%, and that's how you're going to win the game. So it's really not that difficult to understand. But the other interesting thing, too, is, like, the moment you give 100%, you're taking 100% responsibility and you're really showing up for yourself, for your marriage. Not because she had a good day or she had a bad day or she said something nice or she didn't or whatever, but you're showing up because you want that, and that's when it gets real.

[10:08] Karin: Yeah. Rather than scorekeeping, right. We're saying, okay, I've done my part, now you do yours. Does that ever work?

[10:16] Amrit: Yeah, we talk about that. We talk about scorekeeping because it's a tendency, and it's something we all carry from our childhood where we're like, oh, I carried the trash out three times, now it's my siblings turn. Right. But that's not how it works in a relationship, and that's not how it works when you want to expand your love and really live in a fulfilled relationship.

[10:40] Karin: And you talked about being authentic. How do you define being more authentic?

[10:47] Amrit: To get to know yourself better and really what makes you tick and really what's going on inside of you. So we talk a lot around emotions, and where do those emotions of anger and frustration come from? What's behind that? We talk about needs and wants. And so many men never ask themselves what they truly need, what they truly want. We live in a society where women for thousands of years had woman circles, right? Where they come together and they would meet with each other and they would support each other, and they would spend time together, and they would process together, and man would just all walk by themselves through the forest and go try to hunt a deer. Right. When man came together, historically, was always like, okay, let's drink a lot of alcohol and not talk about anything which could set one of us off. But to really like this new generation of us men now, and it's cool to see because this is already now happening much more with a younger generation, is they really want to connect to what's going on inside of them. They want to talk about it, they want to come together, they want to share. And I think it's a beautiful time for the world of us men to really grow into that and learn how to do it well and learn all the benefits that come with it.

[12:14] Karin: And you talked about exploring emotions, and I'm guessing that there are some men that really struggle with that in the beginning when they start to work with you.

[12:23] Amrit: It's super hard for us men because the problem is we are all generationally connected, right? We're connected to our lineage. And so for us men, our fathers, probably in my age especially, did not do a lot of with emotions, right? Maybe a little bit like 5% emotional involvement. But then our grandfathers were even further disconnected from it, and then the great grandfathers even further. And it keeps going back generations and generations before us. So it's really, really challenging for us men to become vulnerable and to open up and to just admit to, oh, yeah, it's not just that. I know only frustration and anger. There can be emotions below that. And I have feelings and I can get hurt, and I can be vulnerable. And just this understanding of it is so powerful and really helps a lot of men to open up and realize that there's a whole other life there.

[13:26] Karin: And what does that emotional work have to do with sex?

[13:33] Amrit: It has so much to do with it. And this is actually something we cover in the course because I take them through the whole process. Right. We start with taking responsibility first, then we start with building trust. Then we learn about communication, and then it goes into emotional connection, because unless you can establish an emotional connection with another human being, sex will just be superficial, will be basically two people masturbating with each other, because it's just this superficial thing. Right. But the moment you have that emotional connection, that's when you can create that physical connection. And then sex becomes something most men haven't even heard about. How expansive and how uplifting it can be.

[14:21] Karin: Yeah. And how as you get older and deepen your connection with your partner that just gets better and better.

[14:31] Amrit: Exactly. Yeah. And that's another concept which blows some of my clients minds where I'm like, I've been married for 20 years. I don't think we'll ever have good sex again. I'm like, no, it's opposite. Now is the beginning. Now it's going to get so much better because you have that depth. But you do need to establish trust first. You do need to establish the emotional connection first because you need to understand this just doesn't happen by itself.

[14:57] Karin: Yeah. And you need to be a team. You're in this together.

[15:01] Amrit: Yeah.

[15:03] Karin: So what else do men get wrong about sex?

[15:06] Amrit: Men get so much wrong about sex. I think it has to do with the fact that women almost have that advantage of being able to warm up much slower. Right. It's a process for a woman. For a woman to really become sexually engaged, it takes time, it might take hours, it might take days to really get to the point where you can really open your heart for men. We are trained since childhood that you can get excited with porn in three minutes, and then it's over two minutes after that. And so this programming kind of gets carried over into sex. And we think we have a fulfilling sex life because we had an ejaculation, but it's like 2% of what it can really be. And so it's like such a deep misunderstanding. And so I would really encourage all the listeners who are men to study tantric practices. The Kamasutra people have been talking about this for 5000 years. This is not something new. There is so much out there to learn. There's so much out there to learn about how our body works, what we can do differently, and how we can get in tune with another person's body and find that balancing point where things just start flowing and expanding.

[16:33] Karin: Yeah. And it's perfect because just last week I talked with someone about Tantra. So this flows very well. How do you define spirituality in the context of the work that you do with men?

[16:47] Amrit: For me, what it always comes back down to when I talk about spirituality is this quote I heard from my teacher 30 years ago, and I loved it. And it's very simple. He said, we're not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience. And that just did it for me. That was the whole explanation I needed for spirituality, for how to integrate that as being a human being where I was now, not searching for it in the outside world anymore. But I really started finding my spirituality inside myself. And another big thing, to be reminded that every other living thing has a spirit. And so every other living thing on this planet is just as spiritual. But for us as humans, we have this ability with this human body, with this chakra system, with our aura, with all these extras we have going for us to really go to an amazing high level of connection in our spirit and with the universe while still being in this physical form as a human being. Very grounded, very connected with the earth. And that's why religions have been so successful over the last 3000 years, because they took this concept of connecting with spirit, which is everything, and just said, oh, here's a couple of rules. And if you follow these rules, and if you grow a beard or put a turban on or don't put a turbine and shave your beard or whatever, the thing is, that's when you're doing the right thing. So, for me, I lived as a Sikh for many years, and I really connected deeply to the sikh religion until I got to the point where I was like, I want spirituality. I don't want religion in my life. I don't need these limitations. I don't need this. Oh, my religion is bigger than your religion, and my God is stronger than your God. Right? We did that when we were five, talking about our death. Right. For us guys. And so this is something where I kept my beard on my turban just because I love it so much, and I connected with it on such a deep level. But I wouldn't really call myself a Sikh anymore because I feel it's so limiting. I'm a spiritual being. I'm a spiritual seeker. I love connecting with other people from other religious traditions who also have an open mind and who can see beyond their horizon because they use their religious practice, their religious connection, to connect with their essence and connect with spirit, rather than get stuck in it and get kept small by it.

[19:43] Karin: So it sounds like you're really open to working with people from all kinds of backgrounds and that you're not trying to bring them into one kind of religious practice, but rather connect them with their own and what's really real for them.

[20:01] Amrit: Yeah. And honestly, it doesn't even matter. You can be religious. Be not be religious. You can believe in God. You cannot be believing in God. All that doesn't matter, because ultimately, again, you're this spiritual being, having this human experience. If you want to connect to that spiritual essence inside of you, there's thousand different ways. And we live in 2024. I mean, you can learn new ways to connect spiritually on TikTok, and there's great stuff on that. And so we're living at a time, and I love talking to teenagers about this, because for them, when you talk to them about spirituality, they're all like, oh, yeah, sure, of course they understand this. When I was a teenager, less than 5% of the other kids had, like, a relation with spirit. The only people who had a little bit something were the people who were religious, but they were kind of stuck in their thing, right. But time has changed so much in the last 40, 50 years, and I think it's this deep connection with spirit within, and I think that's where we're going as a human race. So all the religion is just going to fall to the wayside, in my opinion.

[21:18] Karin: So why do you think that kids nowadays are more connected that way?

[21:23] Amrit: I think it's a whole nother generation. I think it's much bigger picture. It's a whole nother breed of souls that have incarnated in the last 1520 years. And I love talking to kids because it is so fun connecting with kids. They have so much capacity. They're not influenced by what should be or what should not be. And they have such a deep understanding of themselves already, especially this new generation, that I have big hopes for the future because they're going to take over from all of us at some point, and that's going to be good.

[22:04] Karin: I love hearing that. So how do you help people connect spiritually?

[22:09] Amrit: There's so many techniques. The one I like to use is meditation, because I find that when you go inwards and you get quiet, everything up, everything is there. And there is a couple of different meditation modalities you can use. You can use a guided meditation, you can use some mantra or some sound, but these are all just tools to come to yourself. When I started practicing, I started practicing with kundalini yoga because I was not able to meditate. If you would have sat me down, say, meditate for five minutes, my mind would have been all over the place. I couldn't do it. But then when I did a yoga set first and spent 45 minutes connecting with my body, now I was able to sit for 510 minutes and meditate. So for me, yoga was a necessity to get me to meditation.

[23:03] Karin: And that is the purpose of yoga, isn't it?

[23:06] Amrit: Yeah, that's the whole idea behind it.

[23:07] Karin: That's why it was developed, right? To get you to that place.

[23:12] Amrit: And you also look really good in cute yoga pants.

[23:17] Karin: Of course. Okay, so you recommend clients start a meditation practice and perhaps they pair that with not even.

[23:28] Amrit: Because just looking like this, people already put me in a box. Right? I mean, that's just what happened. But usually the people who choose to work with me come to that at some point where they are like, I want to know more about meditation. Don't you meditate? Can you tell me something? And that's my way in. That's when I can share what I have. But I'm very sensitive to that, to not force someone down the road they don't want to go on.

[23:57] Karin: Yeah. And how does that help their relationships connecting spiritually?

[24:04] Amrit: Again, it helps with connecting with self. It helps with becoming more authentic, and it helps with just arriving with you and accepting you at a deeper level. And so what I do with the people who get a sense that meditation is a little earlier, I'll say to them, go for a beautiful walk in the forest and then sit on the bench and don't look at your phone, just close your eyes or look at the trees, listen to the sound. Or even when you're driving your car and you drive somewhere before you rush out, just take five minutes and sit in the car and just breathe. Right. And just be with yourself. Because every time we practice becoming present with ourselves. And that's why the human body is such a great tool, right? Because you can use it to feel this present moment, and you can use it to experience the weight of your body, the connection you're having within yourself and how that feels. You can use your breath, you can use your heartbeat. I mean, there's so many beautiful things you can do. Which then, in turn, to answer your question, make you more aware, more conscious, and not so distracted by what was in the past or what could possibly be in the future. But you're arriving more on the present moment. And if you bring that into your relationship, this presence, this awareness, that's when things start changing. Because now suddenly you can see the other person, you can see what they are going through, you can see what they're experiencing emotionally. And you can slow down and say, what's going on with you? Tell me more about that. And you can allow your partner to speak about it and create emotional connection, which ultimately then leads to physical connection and an improved sex life. Right. So that closes the whole cycle.

[26:04] Karin: Yeah, they're all connected. But I love how you also say that helps you slow down. Yeah, because I think that's where so many of us get caught up and caught up in reacting instead of being able to slow down and really notice what's going on. And then we can make another choice, right?

[26:27] Amrit: Yeah. And we all want it. This is an interesting thing. One of the reason people like alcohol or weed is because they want to slow down. That's why they drink that drink in the evening, which ends up becoming four or five, because they need so much from the outside to slow down so they can become present. There's this urge to want to slow down. That's why people like those kinds of things. But there is other ways. There's other healthier ways which don't destroy your body in the process.

[27:04] Karin: And yet then those things become a habit and they feel like they can't do it otherwise.

[27:10] Amrit: No. Yeah. Because if you've been doing it for 20 years now, suddenly someone tells you, stop drinking alcohol. You're like, but that's what's keeping me sane, right? How could I stop doing this? And this is a big discussion which I have with my clients, where they almost come in with this thing, like, oh, I have to stop drinking alcohol now? I said, no, you don't have to stop drinking alcohol has nothing to do with that. You have to just understand why you're drinking alcohol in the first place, what it does for you, and then look at the quantities and then make a decision if that's how you want to live for the next 30, 40 years. And if you don't want to live like that, you can make adjustments, but you can only make adjustments if you replace what the alcohol was giving you with something else, because otherwise you will feel lack. And when you feel lack, you'll compensate in some other way.

[28:03] Karin: Yeah. That can be a really hard thing for someone to consider is like, wait, what? And you want me to do what instead? But doing that gradually and sitting with that, because meditation is also sitting with discomfort and learning to be okay with that, making space for that, which can be a bit of a hard sell. Right?

[28:28] Amrit: It is, yeah. Alcohol is definitely the easier sell. And so that's why it's so popular.

[28:34] Karin: Yeah. But it also ends up, and I don't want to say that you should never do these things, because I think that they really do help people cope when life can be really hard and it can be really damaging.

[28:53] Amrit: No, but what I work on with my clients is it's not if they drink or they don't drink. I always steered away from that conversation. The question is, if you drink, and if you drink more than you know you should be drinking, why do you need that? And that's where you need that connection with yourself. Because most people who drink too much. Whatever is too much, do it because they're compensating for some lack in their life. And if they can identify that and they can heal that first, then it's a no brainer to drink less and just say, oh, I drink a glass of wine once or twice a week with dinner and I enjoy it, but I don't need to drink two bottles every night just to be okay, so I can make it out bed again the next morning.

[29:45] Karin: Yeah. And then that affects their relationship with their part time, right?

[29:52] Amrit: Yeah.

[29:55] Karin: And when they stop drinking alcohol, do you also sometimes see some conflict with partners?

[30:03] Amrit: To a degree. I mean, it really depends on how they stop drinking alcohol. When it's this, okay, I'm going to stop this now because it's bad for me, but I kind of want to keep drinking, but I just stop. Just the sheer willpower. That's when the conflicts come, because there's this disconnect within yourself, there's this unhappiness in yourself. So I never recommend this to anyone. I say, you've been drinking for 30 years. If you drink another two months now or not, doesn't make a difference. So take this time and explore what's behind it. Right. And this is the same with all the addictions. It can be addiction to your phone, addiction to drugs, addictions to alcohol, whatever the addiction is, there is always something behind. Why? That is important for you to stay in equilibrium. And so when you take that away, people are not doing well. And it's the same like with people who are addicted to overeating. You can't just take the food away from them. They're going to be miserable. They're doing it as a way to self medicate. And there's always something behind. And unless you get to the root cause of the problem and really address that, I think it's almost irresponsible to tell someone to eat less just because they're 100 pounds overweight and their heart is suffering. But ultimately the body is processing something which the mind could not integrate. Unless you go there, it's not going to change.

[31:45] Karin: Yeah. It's a coping mechanism. So if you take away their coping mechanism, then you leave them really in a bad place.

[31:53] Amrit: Yeah. And it's super unhealthy.

[31:55] Karin: Yeah. So what are some of the things that you see underneath that? What are some of the realizations that these men come to like, oh, this is why I'm drinking.

[32:07] Amrit: It usually goes back to childhood stories. Right. It's usually something. And most of the time it has to do with a father sometimes. It's also something in relationship to the mother, but it's something of, oh, you need to be tough. You need to be strong. Why are you crying? You're a boy, right? That's the kind of stuff we heard 50 years ago. And so that's these kind of things when they suddenly start processing these kinds of emotions and they burst into tears over something which happened 40 years ago. And now finally, they can start a healing process around it. And that's when you can realize, okay, now, how much of this coping mechanism do you still need? Do you still need half? Do you need a quarter? What can you do with it? And that's more of a long term process, of course. But that's it in a nutshell, I would say, yeah.

[33:05] Karin: And so once someone realizes, oh, this is what's going on, this is why I'm doing it, then what do they do with that?

[33:14] Amrit: Usually when they're at that point where they can really connect the dots and they can really have that awareness, they want to do something about it, they're motivated, say, like, now I finally understand this. Now I understand why I would want to sit down and meditate, why I would want to drink less, why I would want to go outside and go for a walk and take care of my health, why I would want to skip the cheeseburger and eat some vegetables. Because now it makes sense. Now, again, they're connecting more authentically to self and to their body and to their identity. And now they don't want to be overweight anymore. Now they don't want to be addicted to their phone or to alcohol or to whatever anymore. Now they really want to make a change. And then that's a whole separate process. Right. Then depending on what the situation is like, you might need some additional expert help in the process. But if you really know why you want to make the change and you truly connect to that, that's when making the change is honestly the easier part.

[34:25] Karin: Yeah. Understanding that self awareness really is a big piece of it. But also with self acceptance, it's connected.

[34:34] Amrit: Because you cannot fully be self aware unless you're willing to accept all the darkness and the shadows that are behind something which looks more obvious. And now suddenly you have to accept yourself with these so labeled negative qualities, and you have to accept that that's part of your identity. And that's challenging, not just for men.

[35:01] Karin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that seems like the real work, getting into that shadow work.

[35:10] Amrit: You will not get into it unless you know your why. Because the why is what keeps you going. And so just to recommend to people to do shadow work or to process or get more aware about themselves is almost irresponsible because they'll get to a point where it gets hard and then they stop and then they say, oh yeah, this meditation stuff is all bs because it doesn't do anything and it's just hard and useless, right, but it was because they never got clear on why they needed or wanted to do it.

[35:48] Karin: So what would a why look like for somebody?

[35:52] Amrit: Funny enough, with my clients, it starts with they want to save their marriage, right? That they realize when they see their wife moving away and their kids are already 1617 and they know they're going to move out and they know this is not going to go well. They've seen it with all their friends and they say, I care so much for this woman and for this relationship because they're still thinking it's about the outside world, right? I want to do something about it. And now we start diving in, we start talking about themselves. And it gets so interesting because now they're suddenly realizing they're doing this for themselves and they're not doing it for the relationship and they're not doing it for their wife, they're not doing it for the kids or the family, they're doing it for themselves. But by doing it for themselves, their wife, their kids, everybody wants to be around them because they're like, wow, you're so much more fun to hang out with. You're like actually processing stuff. And so it's funny, they do get their result that they're not getting it the way they thought they would get it.

[36:58] Karin: Right, but it all comes together at connecting with their authentic selves and what they really want.

[37:05] Amrit: Yeah. And that's a lifetime journey. That's something that goes on and on and on. There's always another layer of exploration. But it's so exciting when you can really connect with that depth of spirit and with all these aspects of your identity and you're not just this walking mask that goes to work and comes home and drinks three beers and watches some netflix and goes to sleep. Right, so that's where it gets exciting.

[37:36] Karin: Yeah. And I'm guessing these men also just start to enjoy life a lot more.

[37:43] Amrit: So much more. Yeah. And they start enjoying their wives and they enjoy their kids and they enjoy their work more and it ripples into everything. And then after an extended period of time, now suddenly they get picked for promotions and they really start expanding and shining rather than being this depressed small version of themselves where they're just like, how I'm going to make it through tomorrow and pay the bills.

[38:12] Karin: Yeah. And then I'm curious also what you've seen between their relationships with their kids and what the kids notice and how that shifts things with the kids.

[38:25] Amrit: It's the easiest because the Kids are so sensitive. They're also not holding as much resentment. They probably also haven't received as much as many of the poor wives of my clients I'm going through. But it's like the kids turn around in a week or two or three. I mean, it's so quick because I just had this example from one of my recent clients where the wife was checked out. The two semi adult kids were on the wife's side. No one wanted to talk to him anymore. They're all like, okay, this has been going on for too many years. And just after two weeks in the program and after learning a couple simple concepts around communication and taking responsibility, he was able to reconnect with his kids again. And actually what he heard back from his daughter, which was so cool, was that she said, dan, we never talked like this before. I really enjoyed it. And he's like, yeah. And she kept talking, and she kept telling me things about herself, and I loved it, and I was so happy, and I was so fulfilling. And he couldn't believe he had missed this for 17 years. Right. And so mind boggling results with such small adjustments.

[39:48] Karin: Yeah. And if you could name one thing about communication and how you help men shift that, what would it be?

[39:59] Amrit: Learn how to listen.

[40:02] Karin: I was anticipating you're going to say that, and I wanted everyone to hear it from you, not just from me. Yeah.

[40:12] Amrit: No, because to truly listen and not already pre formulating a response or thinking, like, how can I say something really smart back? Or, how will that affect me if I say this? But to truly be present. And again, it comes back to being present. Right. Not being stuck in the past, not thinking about the future, but to really be present. Looking the other person in the face, looking in their eyes and just saying, I'm truly present, and I want to hear what you have to say. I mean, the most powerful communication technique out there.

[40:52] Karin: What do you say for the man who says, yeah, but I'm always so triggered when she says something, and I just go to the moon. And so it's really hard for me to do this.

[41:03] Amrit: For those men, it's either exercise, which helps, or long, deep breathing, or if they're at that place, meditation. Because unless you find that calm spot in yourself where no one and nothing can trigger you. You're not going to do well in those conversations with your wife where she says something and you get triggered and then you blame it on her that she triggered you and blah, blah, blah. And then it starts spinning in a circle. Right. So it's really, again, it's coming back to taking responsibility. Like, take responsibility for your own triggers. It's a little bit like, we're all really good with that. When we have a three year old and they throw a temper tantrum, we're not just going to go in there and saying, you triggered me, and now I'm upset because you were crying. That'silly. We stay calm and we're there and we hold them and we let them go through their process, and we allow them the space to express what they need to express. And then we give them a hug and we tell them we love them. We don't try to explain to the three year old, like, yeah, you need to do this different, and let me fix this for you. And it's like, come on. This is a general courtesy to give to another human being. You know how to do it with a three year old. Start doing this with your wife, just being generally courteous and do not allow anything what she is processing and going through to change your state of mind. If you want to become, become, it's your responsibility, not hers.

[42:38] Karin: Yeah. And I think that's a really important connection to make between learning how to be calm and doing something like meditation or spending time in nature where you really do learn how to slow down so that all of a sudden, when it's in the heat of the moment, you're not expected to do something new. You've already established this practice of knowing how to be aware of what's going on and to be able to slow down and witness yourself.

[43:09] Amrit: Yeah. And that's why you need to practice and you need to have some sort of routine and whatever that is. And my recommendation would be, if you can get there. And this still happens to me. I've been meditating for 30 years. I come to the point where I just realize, oh, my God, I'm going off the deep end just to say, like, I need to go outside now. I need to go take care of myself. Anything I will say will just be stupid, and I don't want to say this, so I'm going to remove myself and I will come back. This is the most important thing to say. I will come back. Not to use it as an excuse and then not talk about it for three months.

[43:48] Karin: Right, right.

[43:50] Amrit: It's not an escape. It's a way to calm yourself down and then come back the next day and say, hey, I'm more calm now. And I think it was really important what you brought up yesterday. Can we talk more about it? But it's a practice.

[44:05] Karin: Right. So if there's one thing you'd like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be?

[44:14] Amrit: Take responsibility, and take 100% responsibility for your own life. Everything that you have or don't have, everything that you have created and that is around you is a reflection of your mental state and of where you are at. Every good relationship you have because you have shown up for that. Every challenging relationship is challenging because you have not yet taken 100% responsibility for your piece in it.

[44:51] Karin: Great. And what role does love play in the work that you do?

[44:55] Amrit: Love is just such a powerful emotion because the moment we deeply connect with our own love and our self love, it's so much easier to love others. It's so much easier to extend that love to clients, to people you meet on the street. And just the way you show up is always just a reflection of how deep that connection of love is within yourself. And so for me, it's always, you need to start learning to love yourself as a whole, not just the good parts, also the parts which are not so good and as a whole, truly accept you, because only then you can accept others.

[45:42] Karin: Yeah. Comes back to that self connection. It's got to start there.

[45:47] Amrit: Yeah, it all comes back to it. That's the wonderful thing about the work I do. It always comes back to self. So sometimes people will say to me in my one on one sessions where they're like, oh, I feel we're wasting time talking about this thing. And I'm like, no, this is perfect because we're really talking about you. And this just reflects in every aspect of your life. So it doesn't even matter what area of your life we're talking about, because this one thing is relevant everywhere.

[46:20] Karin: Yeah. And how can people learn more about you?

[46:26] Amrit: Most fun way is probably follow me on TikTok. There's a lot of fun videos on there. I always post stuff. You can find me on Facebook and on Instagram, too. And it's so easy in today's world to reach out. I also do work one on one with know in selected know. I have a couple women I work with, and I really enjoy the work with men and women alike, just for the men. I have this very specific program. The rest of my work is one on one.

[46:56] Karin: Okay. And so the program for men is a group program.

[47:00] Amrit: It's a group program. And we do one on one sessions. But it's also with a video course. I mean, it's really complete. Right. It's really with this very specific focus of what can you do to take divorce off the table and save your marriage? And your wife doesn't even need to be involved. Just that simple.

[47:21] Karin: And what's your name on TikTok?

[47:24] Amrit: It's Amrit Singh. And just super easy to find me. If you put in Amrit Singh, you'll find me there.

[47:32] Karin: Wonderful. And I'll put it in the show notes as well.

[47:34] Amrit: Yes, thank you for that.

[47:36] Karin: Well, thank you for joining me today, Amrit. I really appreciate the conversation.

[47:40] Amrit: And hearing that was so much fun. I had such a great time. Thank you so much.

[47:44] Karin: Oh, good. Well, enjoy the rest of your year long spring.

[47:50] Amrit: I enjoy it. I go walking barefoot in my garden every day, and it's just beautiful.

[47:56] Karin: Oh, sounds wonderful. All right, thank you.

 

Outro

[01:04:46] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm “theloveandconnectioncoach”. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

Join me in a conversation wtih Hannah Spanke to learn about Tantra and how it can make you feel more connected to everyone and everything. 

Hannah Spanke is a relationship coach, clinical sexologist, and passionate advocate for authentic happiness and sustainable, healthy relationships, starting with the one we have with ourselves. She has numerous credentials and styles of training under her belt, from years of study after nearly a decade in the adult entertainment industry. She is a Licensed Authentic Tantra Practitioner, Board Certified Clinical Sexologist, and Relationship & Life Coach specializing in helping individuals become their happiest selves through inner & outer work, while learning to understand and relate to their partners & family in the best ways possible.

 

Learn more about Hannah

Website: https://www.hannahspanke.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hannahspanke/

 

Learn more about Karin

Website: https://www.drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@loveandconnectioncoach

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

Episode:

Karin: Hello, everybody. Today I'm going to be talking with my guest about kind of a different topic, something that we haven't really talked much about but is absolutely applicable to both self development and our relationships. So there are lots of different frameworks that we can use when you talk about these subjects. And one way we can do that is think about the different things that impact them, including our emotions, our mental capabilities and our mental status, social impacts, the environment, our physical health, sexuality, but also spirituality. And we have touched on spirituality in different ways. But I would just want to make clear, I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about that sense of having meaning in your life, purpose in your life, of feeling connected to something beyond you, to feeling connected with everything and everyone on this earth. And I find that when people have a well developed sense of spirituality, a lot of other things also fall into place. So today I'm going to be talking about one model of spirituality, and that is Tantra. And so Hannah Spanky is my guest, and she was my guest back on episode number 34 when we talk about sexuality. And if you haven't listened to that one, I do recommend. It was a really fun conversation, but I really learned a lot during this conversation because I knew very little about tantra before today. So I hope you dive in. I hope you get something out of it. I think the best part, or for me, maybe the most interesting part, was at the end when she talks about the five different elements. Anyway, I hope you like it. And here we go.

 

Karin: Welcome back, Hannah.

[02:41] Hannah: Thank you for having me, Karen. I'm so excited to be here.

[02:44] Karin: Yeah, it's great to have you back again. I'm so glad that we got to connect last summer and also stay in contact. When it was time for me to bring up this subject, I automatically thought of you and was so glad that you wanted to come back. So welcome back and perhaps you can remind people where you are in the world.

[03:07] Hannah: Yes. So thank you for the reminder that it was last summer when we last talked on the show, because so much has changed drastically multiple times over since then. I've moved, I think, probably three times since last time I saw you. And currently I'm in Carson City, Nevada. So, like, Reno Tahoe area. So that's where I'm at as of Christmas ish time. And I'll probably be here for the next, maybe the rest of the year. We'll see how antsy I get.

[03:37] Karin: Yeah. I do remember you were in transition. You were, I think, staying with your sister, and there were a lot of dogs.

[03:42] Hannah: Yes. Yes. I was with my sister in central Coast, California, for two months, and then I was in Joshua Tree for six months, and then I came here, where I also have family in the area. So it's been good. It's been nice. I met a boyfriend, so that's been lovely. I think that's why I was brought here, but we'll see how long I stay.

[04:01] Karin: Okay. All right, well, we'll have to talk about that later, but tell us what you do for work.

[04:09] Hannah: Yes. So I'm a somatic healer. I'm a relationship expert, relationship coach, intimacy expert, and a clinical sexologist, as well as a tantra teacher. So I like to kind of lump those things together, the clinical sexology and the tantra, because they absolutely support each other. However, they are different. And I think that this will be the first note I make on that difference and probably 100 more times throughout this conversation that tantra does not mean sex necessarily. You can have tantric sex just as easily as you could have a tantric dinner. It doesn't necessarily mean sex. It's a certain approach to the way that you're doing that thing. And so I incorporate tantra as far as the spiritual, emotional, mental support to help people in their intimate lives, as well as that more clinical side of things with the sexology approach.

[05:05] Karin: Okay. And we're going to get into that. But first, I want to ask, we talked a little bit about this last time, but how did you come to.

[05:13] Hannah: Do this work so shortest? What I feel currently, the truest answer is soul contract esque. I came here to do this, and so I found my way one way or another. But summary version just in this lifetime. Snapshot is I experienced my fair share of childhood trauma, a lot of separation in the home, a lot of issues that led me to being available, to stepping into the sex industry as a teenager. I was 16, freshly 16, and I was in that world for about seven and a half, almost eight years. And then stepping out of that industry was really a huge bomb to my life. Like, earth shattering kind of transition phase had started. My spiritual awakening had begun. Officially, that was what I consider my first dark night of the soul, probably about five years ago and maybe a little bit more now. And I started on my healing journey very quickly and eagerly. And like a fire hose approach, I did everything at once as fast as I could. All kinds of different cognitive therapies, different somatic work, different shamanic, spiritual type healing retreats, in person stuff, virtual stuff, and just, like, hit it from every single angle. And then as I shed layers and layers of the things that I needed to let go of, I kind of awoken or got more in touch with the wisdom that I uniquely carry, as well as the things I learned through my own process. And then that turned into me having more and more clarity on how I wanted to help people, others on their own journeys, and naturally, just with the way that things unfolded. And like I said, very soul contract. The theme has been undeniable my whole life. I knew it would be something to do with relationships, relating, intimacy, sex, taboo things in that realm. And that's exactly where I'm at. Through the last five, six years, I have, like I said, done the fire hose approach for my own healing, as well as really taken my time and gone deep into a few different modalities and tools, less techniques, different lineage things like the tantra that I'm trained in to just continue to evolve my own journey, as well as add to my repertoire of tools.

[07:39] Karin: Wonderful. Why don't we go ahead and get into it? So maybe you could start with telling us what tantra is.

[07:47] Hannah: Yes. And I am so happy to answer that question because it feels like, I don't know, it's like the opportunity to debunk so many myths every time somebody asks. Because I know for myself even, and I say this in hindsight, I say it shamelessly now, but I was a little embarrassed about it for a while. When I first started my journey with tantra, it was personal only. It was for my own healing. And then it all aligned quickly, that this is something that I was going to teach, and this was going to be part of my practice or my offering to the world. And even a year, maybe eight months into that journey, I was like, what is tantra? What the fuck does tantra mean? It feels like this very elusive term. It's like there's no concrete definition that is mainstream, at least. And so I think we all make whatever we think it means up kind of based on social media or media contexts and stuff. So a lot of tantra in the western mind is thought of as sex, sexual things, kamasutra type stuff. At least that's what I hear from people mostly. However, tantra is an ancient science, an ancient tradition. I think of it really as like a family of spiritual science where its roots are traceable all the way back to one origin. But there are many, many different branches of it at this point, over many thousands of years. It can be traced all the way back to people migrating, like, 13,000 bc esque time, like, long, long time ago. 15, 17,000 years ago. It can be traced back to when, like, prehistoric, when an enlightened master, who, I cannot remember his name at this time. You can google it. He traveled from India. India. Africa is really, like, the origin place of Tantra. In the very beginning. Indian is obviously the hindu tradition. And then it was brought north to the himalayan region to, like, Tibet, Nepal, baton, those areas where it was differentiated once again, and it became more of, like, the hindu version. And then the off branch there is the, like, more asian expressions of the tradition. And so up until that point in that region, the himalayan region, the people there practiced something called bonpo. And Bonpo was just the most ancient tradition religion of that area. That was one step more organized than what basically everybody on the planet practiced up until that point, thousands and thousands of years ago, which was animism, which is basically the recognition that all things have spirit and being in union with all things in life. And so it went from that, like, ice age people animism up to the Bon pro tradition, up to the very first expression of tantra in that buddhist region. And then the buddhist influence and all of that was kind of developed and interwoven. And so the lineage that I'm trained in specifically is a lineage of tibetan buddhist tantra that can be traced back about 1200 years. And it's called the Shankpakagi lineage, and it was originated by two women. And so it is a feminine lineage as well in Tantra. I know, there's so many questions. I'm probably.

[11:12] Karin: This is so interesting.

[11:13] Hannah: Yeah.

[11:14] Karin: I didn't know it had the relationship with Buddhism, which I love. That's so interesting. Okay, I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

[11:22] Hannah: Go ahead. No, it's totally good. Your excitement face is exciting me. So this is great. But, yeah. So depending on, really, the origin or which lineage you are called to or practicing or whatever it has different roots, slightly. So, like, what I practice is tibetan buddhist tantra. So its roots are associated with Buddhism versus if it was an indian tradition, it would be associated with, like, Hinduism. So tantra has a lot of different expressions in the world. But I, to make it super simple, kind of put it into two categories. There's classical tantra, which to me means it's tied to a lineage that can be traced. And lineage just simply means passed down from enlightened master of some sort to student master to student, master to student in an unbroken chain that can be traced. And so if you are studying something that has a lineage, it has some sort of roots that is classical. And if you were studying something that doesn't necessarily have roots in the same way I put that in, like, the neo tantra category, I am biased, and I say that openly about this because I've studied and trained the last three and a half years in a specific lineage based tantra. So not to discredit the value of neotantra, because I think there's value in everything. Truly, that's part of the tantric worldview I have, is that there is value in everything. However, I wish there was a different name for it. It's like people who get upset that almond milk is called milk because it's not milk. I wish that neo tantra wasn't called tantra. I wish it was called something else, because it just paints a very different picture of what tantra is compared to classical lineage based approaches. It all has value, but without the tradition aspect to it, it, in my opinion, kind of takes away a bit of the reverence and the sacredness that I find is very important. To really honor those traditions and embody the teachings, it has to be done with a certain level of reverence for it. And if there's no roots for it, and it's just because I want to decide, I want to write a book today about how to eat pussy or something and call it a tantra book. That can happen. And so I'm like, God, no, it's not the same. So that's my two cent on those differences.

[13:51] Karin: It's interesting. Would you say that the neotantra is kind of white appropriation? Is that true?

[14:00] Hannah: I think it definitely just speaks to sort of like the cultureless plague of the western world, that we don't have roots. It's like the melting pot for a reason, because there's just a whole bunch of everything. And so, so many of us, we all have tradition. We all have roots somewhere. And even if we're all in America. We all have roots from somewhere. And with just living in this culture, I think we get very much disconnected from that in a collective way. And so the importance of tradition and those roots is just a lot less in our culture. And so I think it kind of permits different behavior that wouldn't be the same somewhere else.

[14:39] Karin: Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And how did you learn and learn tantra? Where did you learn it?

[14:44] Hannah: Yeah, occult. So that's a different story. Yeah. So, long story short, I found my way to this institution. This school. They're based in Canada, and it was a two and a half year unfolding. Essentially, the school itself is rooted in the traditions that I am speaking about, the specific lineage of tibetan buddhist tantra. However, the school teaches their own version of tantra. There's a specific name. I'm not even going to give energy to it. But they teach that version of tantra that is rooted in what I'm talking about, just completely distorted the sacredness of these teachings. And they were leveraging the teachings for their own self service, manipulation, control, power, those types of things.

[15:45] Karin: Okay, so even though this institution was questionable, they still had a lot to offer that you were able to take in and learn from and then figure out how to make it better.

[16:00] Hannah: Yes. Lots to unlearn as well. But, yeah, it was both, because in this world, we learned through that contrast. So it was what it needed to be, but it was the gateway for me to step back into connection with that lineage that I've personally been tied to for a long time.

[16:22] Karin: Yeah. Okay. All right. So perhaps you can get a little bit more into the nitty gritty of the different aspects of tantra.

[16:33] Hannah: Yes. I want to be just, like, extra clear that what I am talking about is the lineage that I'm trained in, tibetan buddhist tantra. So I'm definitely not, like, a self proclaimed expert on tantra as a complete whole or, like, hindu tantra or other things that I haven't studied to the same degree. So to start that, what I can really name is a couple of things, three things specifically that make tibetan tantra different from other lineages. So number one is the motivation for practice compared to a hindu tradition, the motivation for practice in most hindu traditions, as far as I know, and this could be butchered a little bit, but as far as I know, is more self oriented and not in any negative way, but it's like, for that individual to achieve enlightenment. It's for that individual to ascend, to heal, to grow, transform, whatever with the tibetan lineage, it has that budhist influence. And so it says, instead of just for me to reach enlightenment, it's for the enlightenment of all beings. And so at the end of every single one of the formal practices I do, you dedicate the merit of the practice. And it's kind of prayerful. You can do it to whoever you want. But traditionally, it's like, I dedicate the root merit and virtue of this practice to all living beings. May they reach enlightenment. So it is, and so the purpose behind it is a little bit more global. It feels like it's more obvious with its interconnectedness. And so I really appreciated that aspect of it. And then the second difference is the central channel placement. So if you've ever seen any sort of chakra system picture, you see the Chakras all the way up the center of the body in a hindu tradition like Kundalini yoga and different traditions that recognize the central channel as being in the spine. Like, if you do Kundalini yoga or something, that's that hindu tantric tradition, it's all about awakening that Kundalini energy at the base of the spine and allowing it to rise up the spine. In the Tibetan traditions, that is a no. That's like a hard no. It's like, specifically taught not to see, visualize, acknowledge the central channel in the spine because of some energetic conflict between your nervous system and your energy body. And so the way that the Tibetan Buddhist lineages practice is placing the central channel literally in the center of the body, like in front of the spine, behind the sternum. So that placement is different. Well, this goes hand in hand. That third piece that's different is the chakra system. So in a Hindu tradition, which is what we're mostly familiar and comfortable with in the western world, is like root, sacral, solar plexus, heart, throat, the standard ones that we all are used to. It feels so standard because we're so used to it. Yeah.

[19:33] Karin: And I just want to say, for those who aren't familiar with the chakras, that's what we're talking about is these chakras that we try to open up and access that they go all throughout the center of the body there.

[19:45] Hannah: Yeah. Just for a little bit of clarity on that, the word chakra, in its root, the sanskrit word, it means wheel. And so basically, it's acknowledging a wheel of energy in the center of your body, where it's like a hub for that specific type of energy, like you have one in your heart. And so that's your heart chakra. You have one in your throat. That's your throat chakra, and it's a wheel of energy, and then the central channel that those wheels are all aligned with. I think of it as like an invisible nervous system, sort of where it's like, in the nervous system 3D body, you have a spinal cord and a network of nerves that goes all the way out in all directions to the surface of the skin. In your energy body, you have that central channel that holds the chakras, just like your spinal column holds your spinal cord. Your central channel holds the chakras. And then those wheels spin, the energy that flows through your body all the way out through the surface of your skin, just like nerves. And so this is why when you feel like you have to cry or something and your throat's clogged up your throat, like you're holding something back, because that wheel has an input of energy or influx and energy that it can't do anything with until you allow it to move. And so it's always just trying to move through the system. I digress. No, that was good.

[21:01] Karin: That was great. That was great. It's helpful.

[21:03] Hannah: So the chakra system that I practice with, and because I'm raised in this culture, I'm very familiar with the seven chakra system that I just mentioned. So that is still very much in my awareness. But as far as true to the tibetan buddhist tradition, it's a five chakra system, not seven. And they are all associated with a different element. And so starting from the bottom all the way up to the head, it's the fire, earth, space, air, and water chakras, elements. And so this speaks to how the oldest traceable roots of these specific lineages of these regions, the whole Himalayan area, come from that animism worldview, where they see the spirit and everything, and the elements are very much a part of everything. And so the elements are a big part of this tradition that I practice as well. Now, Tantra, the actual word tantra in Sanskrit means to weave. And so the way that I think about tantra, and I've never heard it described like this, but it makes so much sense to me, is that tantra is a pathway to healing, enlightenment, ascension, however you want to think about it, because it is the integration of everything. And so tantra in this tradition specifically means to weave light and sound with form. And the way that that actually gets done is the practices are done with the eyes open, so you're allowing light in as you're doing your practices, meditation or whatever it is that you're doing. Your eyes are open, letting light in, so that there's truly no separation between you. Your internal world, your external world, your practice, your regular life, it's all being integrated at once, which is the ENd GoAl ANyWays. So that's the light. And then as well as visualizing the elements that you're working with. So, like, if I was doing a fire element practice, I might be visualizing red light. So that is the light PiEce. Sound is the chanting, using the voice to activate some of these energies. SO, Like, FiRe element in this tradition is connected to the seed syllable ram. So you could. Ram, ram, ram, ram, ram. And you're activating that energy. And then form is the actual body. And so again with that buddhist perspective, it acknowledges the body as God, as the BuDDHA. It is the vessel that holds everything we need to achieve whatever it is that we came here to do. And so healing within the body, a closed chakra system, versus, like, shooting it out to the cosmos or sending your energy down into the earth like Hindu practices, that's the last difference between the two. It's all about healing from the inside of the body, cultivating these energies for your own benefit. And so that healing with light and sound, or healing using light and sound with form, is essentially the recipe for an evolution of consciousness on a cellular level. Like, our cells are driven by light, literally, we need sunlight. We need light for the energy system in our body to even work, like on the MosT 3d level. And so one step beyond that is simply just light. And so using these tools that tantra offers to upgrade your light body, it's basically yoga for your energy body. You can stretch and go to a yin class or a flow class or whatever. AnD thAt's LIKE YOga for YOUr physical body. TANTra is YoGA for YOUr energy body. And so it's like the practice of strengthening, toning, connecting with that energy body that ultimately evolves your consciousness. And AS everybody on the planet was EVolving in consciousness, the planet would be evolving in consciousness. And so that's the point, is like collective healing, one person at a time. To me, Tantra is the epitome of integration, because it's all about weaving all things together. And integration, to me, is the epitome of life itself, the epitome of the healthy, happy life we all want on a soul level. We're all connected. We live in this 3d world. We forget that. And I think it creates a lot of pain. And we feel separate, alone. Like, our problems are unique, too unique to be understood, to be shared. All that stuff that we're all plagued with from time to time. The antidote to that is remembering our interconnectedness is remembering that anytime we believe the separation, it's not really the truth, it's an illusion. And tantra is such what I consider, like, trustworthy path to embodying that, knowing that nothing is separate.

[26:01] Karin: So I love that idea of us all being interconnected, and it does really remind me of Buddhism. But what's the difference, then, between Buddhism and tibetan buddhist tantra?

[26:16] Hannah: Yeah, so the difference, I suppose, is that there is absolutely no buddhist structure to it. There are no specific buddhist practices or teachings that you would find associated with the actual religion. And so I think about it in terms of kind of, like, jewish people. It's like you can be jewish by blood or, like, jewish, like, you really are a practicing jew. And so I think that this is more like the buddhist bloodline. The influence is there, but it's not the practice of Buddhism. So one example of a practice in this lineage would be doing all the different meditations that go with each element. So the fire element meditation, earth element meditation. So those things, like, if you walked into a buddhist temple and we're like, hey, let's do the fire element meditation, they would look at you like you were crazy. Because the actual practices that I'm talking about are not buddhist practices alone. But the influence in the way that they're done or why they're done a certain way is very buddhist.

[27:27] Karin: Okay, I'm getting you now. And I know that YOgA is an aspect of Tantra. Is that just with the HIndu practice, or is it with this lineage that you practice?

[27:45] Hannah: Yes, absolutely. I would say it's the same for AnY lineage, maybe even some NeotANTRA, if they're really teaching it well, whatever it is. Yeah. So just, like, I don't know if you have ever gotten into yoga very much personally or know, I haven't spent a very long time in yoga, in the yoga world, but maybe the last six months or so, eight months, I've gone to a number of classes here and there, and something that always stood out to me is how simple it seems, but how that is not true for everyone in the room. It's like I could walk into a class, and I'm thinking, okay, I've never been here before. I don't know what I'm doing. Somebody just tell me how to move my body, and I'll be good after the hour. Whereas the instructor is ExPERiencing it on a completely different depth, a completely different level. They're experiencing the meditative quality of it. Or the healing aspect of that self connection time, or connecting with their breath and regulating their nervous system on purpose. So there's like this whole deeper realm to yoga that you don't get right away. You have to kind of walk into it and settle into it. And I would say same thing for tantra. It's like you could read a sex tip in a tantra magazine or something and do it, or you could do something at a completely different level. And it's all tantra. But I think the actual devotional practice, however you choose to do it, is the yoga aspect. It's like the devotion, the acknowledgement that. I think it's an Aurelius quote. He says, straight, never straightened or something like that, where it's like, the point is like you have to keep coming back, coming back to your mat, coming back to your tantra practice, coming back to your meditation practice, because it will go as deep as you want, but you have to treat it like a practice or else you don't get the benefits. Just Like a yoga class. Yeah, that was a very roundabout answer, but short answer. Yes. Tantra is Yoga. Tantra is just simply yoga focused on the energy body and not the 3D body.

[30:05] Karin: Yeah, primarily. What does tantra have to do with relationships? Alluded to that a bit, but maybe you can talk about that more specifically.

[30:14] Hannah: This is such a good question. Tantra has everything to do with relationships, because the essence of tantra is relationship. Even the breakdown of the word in this tradition, meaning weaving light and sound with form, it's the relationship of the light with the sound. It's the relationship of the sound with the form. It's a relationship of the sound with the light. Like all things, the essence of it is relationship. And so when we are in relationship, like girlfriend, boyfriend, husband, wife relationships, we all run into issues. We all get triggered. We all have things that bother us, things that we need, things that we don't like, and some of that is never going to stop. But I think a lot of the conflict we experience in relationships can really be just dissolved, completely gotten rid of with a more tantric approach, grounded in the knowing that we are connected, we are choosing to be in this connection together. Staying, like, your finger on the pulse to that interconnectedness, really, I think, saves so much pain, because when you're in conflict, it's only painful when you see yourselves as separate. It's me versus you. And so if that me versus you thing that shows up for everyone in relationships at some point, if that can be kind of mitigated. With a tantric perspective, it doesn't even have to be a practice, just the mindset, even that we're all in this together kind of thing. The only way through is through. There is no alternative other than coming back into union. That is the end goal, always. That alleviates a lot of the issues I think we have in relationship, because we believe in the moment that it's us against them.

[32:00] Karin: So there's a real mindset piece to this depth of belief that can really serve people well when they're in relationships.

[32:09] Hannah: With others, for sure. And you just said that so well. I think that's what I was talking in circles about, about the yoga piece, where it's like I've walked into a yoga class and the teacher is talking about all this profound blah, blah, blah about yoga, and I'm thinking, this is an hour of stretching. This is not that profound. But their experience of it is completely different. Because of their devotion to their practice, they reach a certain level of embodiment where now that's just the way they think. That's just their natural mindset towards it all. And so same thing. Like, I'm talking about it as a mindset, but not at all, because tantra is taught as a mindset. It's because of my embodiment of it that now that's just how I see things.

[32:55] Karin: Yeah. And of course, it does go beyond the mind. It's a way of seeing the world. But, yeah, like you said, it's embodied, but it's a spiritual practice as well.

[33:07] Hannah: Yes.

[33:08] Karin: So, speaking of relationships, so how does tantra come into sex and physical relationships.

[33:18] Hannah: If we just make it super simple and say that tantra is focused on union? Always. It's union with yourself, that divine, masculine, divine feminine that we all have inside of ourselves. Healing and merging those two in partnership, being in union with the person that you're with in harmony with them. That theme brought into the bedroom because, and I hate to say this so, like, crudely, but I will, for the sake of the point. I think most people unconsciously are using sex as a sort of selfish outlet to kind of masturbate with another person, where you're both maybe experiencing pleasure at the same time, but without that intention to connect throughout it, then what are you doing besides kind of renting each other's bodies? And so the tantra aspect could be as simple as sitting face to face or, like, in each other's lap or hand on the heart, something, and taking a couple of deep breaths together while you look into each other's eyes until you feel like you're connected and then have sex. It could be as simple as that. It doesn't have to be some twelve hour long, technique driven thing. It could just simply be a little bit more mindful about how connected you feel in the moment when you feel like you're thinking about the dishes, bringing yourself back, pausing your partner, putting that hand out, whatever it is that you need to do to kind of stop, ask for a moment of reconnection, take a couple of breaths together and get back into it. Or slow down when you need to slow down. Or speed up when you feel your energy is speeding up and you need to match that. It's just about staying connected to what's true, to what's going on in your own body, and to what you need with the other person and to what's going on in their body. As long as those three things are like here and there, focused on it will be a completely different experience than what most people are having.

[35:25] Karin: I imagine this can really be a healing experience for many couples.

[35:33] Hannah: Absolutely. 100%. What I notice with couples is that once they're individually dropped into a more connected state, a more tantric state, where they're more calm and comfortable in their own body than they might be when they normally start having sex, or they're a little bit more grounded than they might be when they start something. Just that extra three, four minutes of dropping in, it opens the door to so much more pleasure. Because when you're more grounded and connected to yourself, it's easier to speak confidently and openly about what you want. So there's that. It opens the door to you guys really seeing yourselves as teammates and doing that more vulnerably because you're both more grounded in yourselves, in your bodies, in your truth. And I think one of the most healing aspects of it, and this, again, is super simple, it doesn't need to be super technical or crazy at all. You don't have to go to Bali for two weeks to do, like, just the experience, the emotional, spiritual, mental experience of being felt by the other person in a way that's. That's deeper than just physically. That alone can be so incredibly healing because so much of our pain that we all carry has gone unwitnessed our whole lives in the true way that it needs to be witnessed. And so when you're in pleasure, even doesn't have to be pain, but when you're in pleasure with your partner and you can feel them really witnessing you in your whole entire experience, that can be healing to years and years and years of pain that never got the chance to be seen. And so that's where Tantra turns sex into pleasure as medicine, and it's really a pathway to healing.

[37:31] Karin: And then that reminds me of connection.

[37:34] Hannah: Yeah.

[37:35] Karin: Which is what it's all about.

[37:37] Hannah: Right? Yeah.

[37:40] Karin: So I know that there is this theme of masculine feminine polarity in Tanya, can you tell us a little bit more about that.

[37:52] Hannah: Also? Awesome question, because this is another one of the big, like, I don't know if misconception is the right word, but, yeah, maybe that there's a lot of assumption. I think that tantra or tantric teaching simply means polarity, which simply means, like, we are opposite somehow, and that's what makes attraction happen. And to some degree, I agree with that. That's why we don't all date our clones. Like, you don't want someone that's exactly like you. There needs to be something that creates that magnetism. If you're not opposing in some way, there's no magnetism. But ultimately. So there's also kind of two branches of tantra here. It's like I said, classical versus neo tantra. There's also duality focused tantra and nondual tantra. And so what I tend to lean towards is more nondual teachings, which is really focused on inner union more than outer union. Because if you have your own inner divine, masculine divine feminine that are both healthy, healed, supported in the right ways and connected to each other, then you can easily hold that outside of yourself, too. But when the focus is on, like, oh, I'm not feminine enough, because whatever, I need to start doing this practice to be more feminine. He needs to do this practice to be more masculine. I think that helps. But it also creates this construct that I think limits us from our internal union, because we're so focused on being more one way than the other in a way that it might not be the most natural, I think everybody has a natural feminine core or masculine core. And so I think most people are going to express themselves more often in one of those ways, but to the point where it doesn't need to be hyper focused on. Everyone needs to do healing to balance those things in themselves, for sure. But I see, like, a dark side to a lot of the polarity tantra teachings, where it's like, all you need to do is be and just let him ravage you and blah, blah, blah, and then him. It's like, you need to be in charge. You need to take her. You need to show her that you're certain, 100% of the time it puts us in our head more than in our body about what we're doing in order to create attraction. Versus if you focus on that inner union, then the attraction feels very effortless. And all of those pains that we feel around, like codependency or needing the other person to meet our unmet childhood needs and all that kind of stuff, it sort of just goes away because you're so self resourced with that internal union that then anything external is termed, like a bonus.

[40:46] Karin: So when you talk about internal union, are you talking about really making peace with both the feminine and masculine aspects of yourself and what that means for you?

[40:58] Hannah: Yes, absolutely. So I'll give you, like, a practical example, an example of internal union that I can speak to personally. And so somebody might resonate with this, but just kind of like, take the essence of what I'm saying. This is a personal example. In way, way past, let's say, like ten plus years ago, I had already stepped into the sex industry. But there was gaps. There was a year or two gap in the beginning a couple of times where I had kind of OD jobs, sales jobs, different things. And for maybe six months a year of that time, I was so in my masculine, like, 100% of the time, I was first to the office, last to leave. Everything to do with my own beautification and gentleness and self care was nonexistent. It was like, well, this is what I need to do. And discipline, discipline, discipline. And I got a lot of shit done for sure. So my masculine really came in and showed up for me, but it was at the sacrifice of my feminine. And so all of those more gentle, tender, nurturing kind of needs just got totally compartmentalized and disassociated from then. Fast forward, years later, the very beginning of my business, I was super deep brainwashed. In the world of Instagram, pleasure, feminine, business, coaching type of people who are like, every other picture is just a picture of, like, a g spot wand, and they're like, you can fuck yourself to millions and all you need to do is lay around and be sexy and be in your feminine and be feminine and be feminine. And it's like, what the fuck? There's no strategy at all. This doesn't work. And so that was very hard, actually. I kind of gaslit the shit out of myself and disconnected from my masculine power and ability to execute so far to the point I swung so far the other direction that being in my feminine was my only focus. And I didn't do anything. And then I would struggle. I would have financial ups and downs, like, not get shit done, and then feel bad about myself. And it was like it was a loop over here that was going on, denying the other part of myself. And nobody is perfect. I'm not perfect. I'm very much forever going to be integrating and deepening that connection in myself. But in the last couple of years, year especially, I've had a lot of breakthroughs and integration around this, where now I have more capacity to handle those parts of myself in ways that serve me, that allow me to get done what I need to get done and meet my own needs and ask for what I want and be receptive and like all parts, because if you can't be direct and assertive, you might never get what you want. But also, if you can't let go and take it easy and receive, you also might never get what you want. So it's like we have to learn to sort of master those opposite ends in our own ways so that we can balance all the energies we all need.

[44:09] Karin: Yes. And I want to tell you a personal story, but I think it might be helpful to first define feminine and masculine energy, because I don't know that I would have really been able to accurately put a finger on what that really means even 510 years ago.

[44:32] Hannah: So, to me, just the most simple version, feminine is more receptive. I don't want to use the word passive, necessarily, because I think that paints a very limited version of what femininity is, because there's also kali. There's, like, sacred rage, sacred protector, like the mother bear kind of energy that's not passive at all. So there could be a ferocity to feminine energy, but the core of it is receptive. It's receiving everything that life has to give and then doing with it from there. Masculine energy is more penetrating. So, literally, just like our parts, even like plumbing, like a male fitting versus a female fitting. One of them is receptive, one of them is more penetrating. And so that's kind of the gist energetic for me. It's like one of them is more receiving, and one of them is more giving. Yeah, that's, like, the simplest terms.

[45:36] Karin: And then there's a strong creative force for feminine energy as well, right?

[45:43] Hannah: Yes. And so I love that you just said that, because I think this is able to make it more clear from that womb space. And this is true for everybody, but particularly women. Everybody has this energy, but particularly women who are equipped with the body that supports it more. From that womb space, life is created from an empty space. Just like when you have your biggest breakthrough idea, it's oftentimes not coming when you're stuck in traffic. It's coming when you're in stillness, when you have the space and the openness to hear, to think, to have those downloads come through, whatever, to be inspired. And so it's like the essence of feminine creation is receptivity. First, stilling yourself enough to be able to receive either receiving the seed, like in your actual womb, receiving the clarity, the wisdom, the idea, and then creating from there, using all of the power that you have as a woman, or just the feminine energy to drive something forward in that creative way that doesn't need to know what it's going to look like. I've gone down a deep rabbit hole in the free birth world of things, birthing outside the medical system and all this stuff. And one of the women that's a big leader in that area, she says all the time, if we were supposed to see inside of our wombs, they would come with windows. I think that that is like a very poetic kind of way to think about feminine energy. There's a deep sense of trust and surrender about feminine energy and the way that it creates. It doesn't need to know where it's going. It trusts that it's going in the right place.

[47:35] Karin: That sounds like intuition creates life, right? Yeah. Okay. And then I also think of masculine energy also as protecting, defending that energy as well. What other aspects do you think are important to understanding masculine energy?

[47:57] Hannah: I would say the ability to make sense of things, like the opposite of that. So the images that are coming to mind for a woman. Well, I'm saying woman, man. That's not what we're saying. Feminine, masculine, feminine. I'm picturing, like a spirally kind of circle. Like, you can just keep walking and walking, and you may not know where you're going, but somewhere, you're going to get somewhere. At some point, you'll get somewhere, and it's going to be what it is. There's a deep sense of surrender, trust, that intuitive guidance type of thing. On the masculine side of things, I picture it much more like building blocks. It's like you know where you're going. And the masculine is about kind of reverse engineering how to get there. It's about the. How it's slightly different from the feminine creation energy, where it's like there's so much power there. There's so much drive, ability to make things happen, the building. But it's paired with a sense of clarity and linear thinking and tangible groundedness. That is just a very different flavor from that feminine leadership. It's more externally focused, I would say, and very grounded compared to. Not that feminine energy is ungrounded, but the feminine has a special way of grounding in things that are intangible. And the masculine, I think, is more oriented towards tangible things. What can they actually do? What can you do about it? Not just who to pray to or how to manifest and all the other nondescript ways of creating, but the most linear, how focused, systematic type of things. I think that's a very masculine way. Yeah.

[49:44] Karin: And of course, you've alluded to this, but that men and women, we all have combinations of these energies. It's not that men are masculine and women are feminine. We all have a combination of those two. Yes, it's important to embrace those. And that's the story that I was going to say, is that I was raised for a good part of my life by my dad, and I really looked up to him and wanted to be like him. And I was also this gymnast who was super strong, and I didn't want any boy, any man, to ever tell.

[50:26] Hannah: Me what to do.

[50:29] Karin: But I also learned as I got older that I have this generational pattern of women, especially denigrating the other women in the family and putting men on this pedestal. And I realized that I had integrated that and had, without my even realizing it, put down that feminine energy that I do have. And learning to embrace that and seeing the beauty of it and the power of it has been really helpful for me in my life.

[51:11] Hannah: I love that so much. I know we can both relate about that with the single dad raising portion. So I very much relate to really just reiterate the whole masculine, feminine, interunion thing in the most clear terms. I would say the ultimate point of that inner union is to 100% embrace, integrate, and honor those different aspects of yourself where you become almost like, hyper vigilant in a sacred warrior way. Not like a crazy person way, but like, hyper vigilant about finding those pieces in yourself, those moments of thought, moments of feeling where there is a part of you that sees masculine or feminine on different levels, on different playing fields and different dynamics. If you walked into a strip club, for example, there's a very clear power dynamic there depends on which side of it you're on, I guess, how you see it. Who's in charge there? The feminine pole or the masculine pole? And so I think that interunion trajectory is all about ridding those parts of ourself that see it as either or better or worse or more powerful or less powerful, and being able to embrace and honor and value all of those parts of ourselves equally, because then when we have that internal wholeness, we can honor the men and the women in our lives equally. And that's how we heal. So much generational trauma around women being abused by men. And you just, all of a sudden, you hate men, and you can't really understand why. Or men who have been the whole me too thing, and they're scared shitless about advancing on a woman because they don't want to be seen as a creep or perpetrator or something when that's not who they are. There's so much conditioning and trauma that we all carry around, men versus women in our country and in our world. And I think that so much of that is transmutable through that interunion work, because you're learning through your own self how to validate and honor all of those different expressions.

[53:26] Karin: I love that as someone who does parts work and who really helps people to learn to embrace all their parts, that is what can help us experience that inner harmony, less stress, and then bring that outward to others as well. So I really love all of that. So if someone listening to this wanted to dip a toe into the world of tantra or dive in, what would you recommend they do to start learning more about it, or to even start practicing it if they want?

[54:09] Hannah: So my personal two cent on that, you'd get a different answer from every tantra teacher in the world. Connect with the elements with as little instruction as I can give you. That's what I want to say. Because the foundation of the tantra that I practice is very much rooted in the elements. It's kind of a shamanic tradition as well, because that elemental nature. And so I think that starting to explore and build a personal relationship with the elements yourself, that could even just be sitting at your backyard pool and putting your feet in the water and seeing what guidance you get, or seeing what arises in your body or how it feels or what thoughts come up. Just starting to see yourself in the world around you through those connections to nature is a really great place to start.

[54:58] Karin: And remind us those five elements are fire, earth, air, water, space in space, right?

[55:05] Hannah: Yeah.

[55:06] Karin: Okay, great.

[55:07] Hannah: If you want, I can share a little two cent on each of those things. Okay. So fire element is the antidote. So each one of the elements is something you can lean on as an energy, like a guide almost, to help you navigate the human condition. Those things are tried and true that nature is not going to change, it's not going anywhere. And so I think it's so important for us as humans who have a whole crazy, complex experience to lean on those fundamental building blocks of life to really help us stay the course and stay out of the chaos that's so easy for us to find. And so fire element is the antidote to it heals our attachments and our aversions, the things that we want to control that we can't. And so working with the fire element and this, like I do this practice sometimes I have a piece of Palo Santo here. You could light a fucking stick, I'll light it on fire and I just look at it and I just watch it until the flame naturally goes out. It's maybe a 32nd to a 62nd practice. Every single person listening to this has 30 seconds to spare. Some point in the week, and you could turn on the flame on your stove like, it doesn't need to be complicated. But the practice of watching, letting yourself learn from fire and how wisdom is magnetism and discernment. Magnetism only exists when we allow ourselves to be pulled to the things that pull us. When we're attaching to what we want to keep or we're pushing away what we don't want to experience. Our magnetism disappears because we're trying to control it. And so when we can let go of those, control the aversion, the attachment, we become more magnetic in our life and to the right things and more discerning about those things and what's right for us, because we're not driven by our desire to control. That's fire. Earth. I love Earth element. To just connect to a feeling of support, like trust in life, letting yourself feel yourself being held by the planet mother. Earth at the mother kind of figure helps picture that. Like, you're being held literally by a mother that wants you to thrive, that wants you to do well. And so I think anytime we are afflicted with our own worthiness stuff where we're either feeling arrogant, like we're too good for XyZ, or we're not good enough for something, Earth element is really great to connect to, to bring that back into balance and remember that everything is on the same playing field, everything is worthy and all equally and without justification, just like the planet. So there's Earth, space, ether. I use the term space, but I see most people use the term ether. And space is just like I was saying earlier, that creation, well, air is about creation, but that stillness, that all creation comes from that is space. Space is the essence of our interconnectedness of our heart, of being at peace with what is at all times, because you know that you're not separate from it. And so space is a really grounding, but almost like grounding for the soul. It's, like, different than grounding on the Earth. It's like grounding for the soul. Plugging back into that most basic element that all things come from, remembering that you are connected to source at all times and can be at peace with whatever is going on because of that. And it's really helpful when things are not peaceful. So that's space. Air element is the energy of creation. So this is like, I see it represented as, like, an infinity symbol. Air is always around. Every time you've taken a breath in your life, you likely haven't wondered if air was going to be there. It's always everywhere. And so air is a really great antidote to the feelings of lack, scarcity, money, stuff, as well as jealousy, because the essence of jealousy is feeling like, there's not enough for you. Somebody else has more money than you, there's not enough for you. And so that's painful. Your boyfriend must be texting another girl because there's not enough attention for you. And so that jealousy frequency is the frequency of lack. It's the opposite of abundance. And air element can really remind us that we are abundance. We breathe abundance. We are fueled by abundance. Abundance is everywhere. And tapping into the enjoyment that we can find through remembering our creative potential. And then very last is water element, which is the antidote to anger. That makes a lot of sense. You think about anger. You think about, like, hot heat, flame, mad red. You throw some water on that, and it's cooled down immediately. Water is the antidote to anger, frustration, and specifically anger and frustration. That's coming from a lack of clarity. Like, maybe it feels like you're on a path, and every single time you make progress, something else shows up as an issue. And so water helps us connect to that mirror, like wisdom, where we can see things clearly versus the kind of illusion that's like, oh, this obstacle means you're actually stuck, and then you're mad about it, and then you stop moving forward. The antidote to that connecting to water, remembering that there's always a way to keep flowing, to keep going, to move through the obstacle little by little, like the grand Canyon or like a tsunami. It can be titrated in different levels, but the wisdom is the same, that you always have a way through and connecting with water can help you stay plugged into that clarity. Those are the five and how you can work with them. And part of the homework there is to let it be weird. Let yourself feel weird and talk to the plants and talk to the water and look around, make sure no one's seeing you. Let it be weird. It's fine. It'll stop soon.

[01:01:20] Karin: Yeah, that gives me a lot of clarity about Tantra and what it's about and what it's based in. So thank you for that. Okay, so I'm curious. I usually ask people, what role does love play in the work that you do? But I already asked you that last time, so I have a different question to ask. And that is, what kind of books, podcasts, blogs are you into? And this could be around Tantra, or.

[01:01:58] Hannah: It could be something completely different podcast wise. The only podcast I think I've listened to this year so far has been freebirth society. Because like I said, I'm going down a rabbit hole of free birth stuff. Some part of me is preparing for motherhood. We'll see. I don't know, but stuff about pregnancy and birth outside the medical system has really been empowering and catching my attention. And then books, I've been feeling a very strong pull to old leather, sticky type books that I'm able to find in thrift stores that are all slightly different, the ones I've come across, but they're all under the same umbrella of basically everything we've talked about in this conversation. Christ, consciousness, the interconnectedness of everything, that source, unity, kind of vibe. And most of the books are written by men in the. It's amazing how many of these things are just repeated in different ways by all of these different people, and it just reinforces that truth, that knowing. So I've really been enjoying that kind of stuff.

[01:03:11] Karin: Is there one that stands out?

[01:03:13] Hannah: Three magic words. I think it's by us. Marshall, I think, is the name I want to say. The book was originally written in the. Actually listened to a Wayne Dyer, like, five minute long guided meditation before I went to sleep for probably six months straight when I first started meditating, I couldn't handle silence. I would just do guided stuff, and I would do that every night. And it was probably six months of daily listening before I actually heard it. That in the meditation he mentioned, he says something like, and from the words of the book, three magic words, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and says something. And I was like, I'm going to get the book. And I looked it up and it's an insane, powerful, very transformational book. It's called three magic words. It's life changing, wonderful.

[01:04:00] Karin: Oh, I love it. I love it.

[01:04:02] Hannah: Yeah.

[01:04:03] Karin: And how can people learn more about you?

[01:04:07] Hannah: Instagram is the best place to find me@hannahspanky.com. If you have any private questions that you're not on social media, you can email me hannahspanke at gmail. And my website is being redone for a second time in the last year. And so domain may be changing and everything, so that is to be decided. But Instagram is the best place for now.

[01:04:31] Karin: Hannah, thank you so much for taking us all on this journey of learning about Tantra. I learned a lot, and I'm guessing that a lot of other people did, too. So thank you.

[01:04:42] Hannah: Thank you so much for having me.

 

Outro

[01:04:46] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm “theloveandconnectioncoach”. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

Befriending yoruself is part of self-development work. It's about learning to like and love yourself through building self-trust, self-acceptance, developing intuition, communcating boundaries, and connecting with others. My guest, Rachel Astarte, talks with us about the benefits of becoming your own best friend, whether you're in midlife or at any point in your life.

Rachel Astarte is an author, holistic psychotherapist, and transformational life coach. She is the author of "Celebrating Solitude: How to Develop and Honor Your Highest Self." She is also the host of the podcast, "Self Talk with Rachel Astarte."

Learn more about Rachel:

Website: http://rachelastartetherapy.com

“Self Talk” Podcast: http://rachelastartetherapy.com/podcast

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachelastartetherapy

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rachelastartetherapy

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelastarte/

 

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

[00:50] Karin: Hello, everybody. Today I'm talking with Rachel Astarte, and she is a holistic therapist out of New York. And we're going to be talking about self development. Now, I talk about self development a lot, and it's a really big part of what I do with clients. And today we're going to dive into what it really is. It's about figuring out who you really are, learning to connect with yourself. And when you do that, you become your own best friend (which is the of a program that Rachel actually runs).

And when you do that, that in turn helps your relationships get stronger, too. But what does self development really mean and what does it entail? So that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about self compassion, intuition, the self critic, and how they're all intertwined and so much more. And then toward the end, we move on to talking about women in midlife and the unique challenges that they face and how this all applies to them. There are so many gems here. So I'm glad you're here. If you like the episode, I hope you'll leave me a review and share it with others. All right, here we go.

[02:04] Karin: Welcome, Rachel.

[02:05] Rachel: Thank you so much for having me, Karen. It's great to be here.

[02:09] Karin: So, first of all, tell me where you are in the world.

[02:13] Rachel: I'm located just outside of New York City, about a half an hour outside of, yeah, New York proper. And, yeah, having a snowstorm. Well, it's just finished now, but it was very beautiful earlier.

[02:29] Karin: And what keeps you there?

[02:32] Rachel: Well, I love New York. I mean, I was actually born in Illinois, but I have no recollection of that because my parents moved when I was about six months old and my father got a teaching position in western New York and we stayed there. But when I was 14 years old, I took my first trip to Manhattan and I fell in love. So what ended up happening was after I graduated from university, I went to a state school, and I said, I want to move to New York, down into the city, and with a couple of forays elsewhere, I spent most of my life, my young adult life there, 22 years in New York City. And then in 2009, I moved outside. But I just love the state so much, and I get so much energy from it, so much creative energy from the city. But the state itself is so beautiful, and it just feels like home to me now. I also lived in New Mexico, so that's the only other state so far that I've ever lived in there. I felt like that felt like home, too. But New York, I'm just completely drawn to the city, and so that's what keeps me here.

[03:56] Karin: It's wonderful to feel so connected with where you live.

[03:59] Rachel: Yeah.

[04:00] Karin: And I have the Billy Joel song now in my head, that New York state of mind. So tell us what you do for work.

[04:09] Rachel: Well, I am a holistic psychotherapist, transformational life coach, author, and educator. So those are the things that I do the most. Yeah.

[04:21] Karin: And how did you come to do that work?

[04:24] Rachel: Well, I started as a writer. I started very early in my career. My father was a poet and a professor of literature and poetry. My mother is an actor, still is. She does more directing now. She's 85. So, so impressed by her all the time. But that's how I got started. I got started in the arts, and then I really loved the connection that I felt with other human beings by communicating through those art forms, and I got kind of addicted to that. But I also grew up around a lot of psychology and a lot of spirituality. So I was just, from a very early age, fascinated by why human beings do what they do. And at some point, I realized that writing, performing wasn't exactly giving me the connection, like the kind of connections I wanted to have with people, which was more personal. So that's when, shortly after my son was born, I went back to school and became a transformational life coach. And that was a lot of fun. I had a great time doing it. But then I realized I am getting dangerously close to doing talk therapy with my clients, and that's not legal. So I decided it would be a good idea for me to go back and get a master's in marriage and family therapy, which is what I did, and went through the internship and the associateship and got all my hours and got licensed in New York state as a therapist. So that's what brought me to the work that I do. Hmm.

[06:12] Karin: We have this kind of an opposite story. You started as a coach and then became a therapist, and I did the opposite. Wonderful. So who are the people that you tend to work with most? What are they seeking when they come to you?

[06:28] Rachel: Well, the people that come to me most are the people who are stuck, and. And usually that can manifest in different ways, as I'm sure you know as well. But the overriding issue that I find with people is a sense of an unbalanced and underappreciated self that somehow they've lost connection with their true natures. And that's what we focus on, is helping them to build a strong foundation of self so that they can manage whatever comes their way, whatever challenges they may encounter in a grounded and whole way that allows them to be who they truly are in the world. So the issues can look like anything from depression, anxiety, impostor syndrome, wonky boundaries with people, people pleasing, all of that low self esteem is a big one. So everything that we encounter just kind of comes back to the self. Something's going on within us that's out of alignment, and that's what I work with clients on.

[07:56] Karin: And you talk about self development, right? And it's such a big topic. I think if you talk to ten people, you get ten different definitions of what self development is, and I think that you and I probably have a very similar idea of that, but I'd love to hear you talk about how you understand it.

[08:18] Rachel: Well, the way that I look at self development is that self development is one part of the work that I do. So I talk about doing socially conscious self development. In other words, it's wonderful to be our best self. It's wonderful to work on our issues and live the best life we can live. But that's not enough. Once we are living our best life, that can also tend to cause more problems down the line. There's still a question of why don't I feel gratified, satisfied, contented in my life? And the reason usually is that we are not meant to just improve our lives for our own benefit. We are meant to improve our lives so that we can contribute to the rest of the world by being our true selves. And so looking at it from what energy are we putting out in the world? When we're in a bad place or in an uncomfortable place, our energy is going to reflect that. When we're feeling more balanced and contented and in control of our behaviors, emotions, actions, then we put out a very different vibe, for lack of a better word, so, really, when we do this work on ourselves, we're actually doing it. Yes. So we feel better, but we're also doing it because we want to contribute to the collective in a positive way. So, literally changing the quantum field or affecting the quantum field and in a way that is helpful for us as family members, because that's what we all are when we think about how everything is interconnected. So, yeah, that's how I define self development. It's that it's taking what is out of alignment, getting it back into alignment, and then going out into the world and living as our true self. That affects the tapestry of humanity in a really beautiful way.

[10:45] Karin: So it sounds to me like you help people connect with themselves, and then you help people connect outwardly with others.

[10:53] Rachel: Is that Right? Yeah. It's about relationship, but not just with other human beings. It's with all of life around us, which is also our siblings. They're also our siblings because everything is connected. So, in fact, when you look at the world that way, it's very hard to feel lonely because there's so much life around us all the time. So, yeah, that's another part of it, too. There's a lot of pressure we put on ourselves to live our best life, whatever that might mean. But when we take the pressure off and we say, well, I'm doing this, yes, because I will feel better. But to know that my feeling better helps others as well, it's easier for us to think about others before we think about ourselves. And that can make it an easier pathway in to doing self work.

[11:59] Karin: So do you do that concurrently? Do you help people work on themselves, but also their connections with others?

[12:06] Rachel: Well, life is back and forth in that way. So while you're working on yourself, at the end of a session with me or at the end of a class with me, you still have to go out into the world and deal with your spouse or your mom or your kid or your colleague, for your boss, for your friend. So you're learning tools about how to pull your energy back in and be solid in who you are so that you can interact with other people in a helpful and functional way. Yeah. So I guess that probably answers it, is that it's congruent. Absolutely.

[12:46] Karin:: And how do people get so disconnected?

[12:49] Rachel: Well, I blame the parents. No, I blame society. I think that, well, we start out as these beautiful beings when we're born without any needs beyond the immediate of being warm and fed and changed and loved. And then when we have interactions with other people, we begin to learn that maybe who we are isn't enough. When you're a child and you're just full of the energy of the world and you're playing and screaming and be quiet, be quiet. We like, oh, I'm not allowed to do that. And we begin to doubt ourselves. We begin to doubt our beautiful energy. And so over time, and then we have teachers who are telling us, oh, you did this wrong, or whatever it is, we start to take the viewpoints of other people and then, yes, we'll bring society into it, too, not to mention social media. But when I grew up, it was television and magazines and, oh, I'm supposed to look like that. I'm supposed to own that car. I'm supposed to drive or have this house and do these activities, we begin to question ourselves. And that really causes a disconnect with our true nature, which we had from the beginning. Now, it doesn't mean the true nature is gone. It's just kind of buried under all of this stuff. And so the work that I do with clients and with students is to help sort of unpack all of that and get back to true nature.

[14:40] Karin: And it's a lot of work, isn't it?

[14:42] Rachel: Yeah, but I even hate the word work. I use it….We have to do our self work. I've been calling it more of an adventure, right? Because it's like the hero's journey, and we're venturing into this unknown and we feel ill prepared. And in fact, that's the first thing that the hero encounters when presented with the adventure, is the refusal of the call. Like, I'm not worthy. I'm not. Okay, I don't have time to do this. It happens in every movie now. You'll never not see it. Every time the hero is presented with the journey, they're like, no, I don't think I'm going to do that. And so, yeah, it's a process. So once we get past that and we jump in and go on the journey, it really is an adventure of learning yourself. And the very first thing that I tell my clients or invite my clients and students to pack on that journey is non judgment. Right? Don't judge yourself for what happened in the past, and don't judge yourself for what's going to happen on your journey. Just accept it as part of the learning process. So, yeah, it takes a while, and also, it's ongoing for the rest of our life. So if we said, oh, I got to work on myself my whole life, that doesn't sound fun to me at all, but I love the idea of being on a life adventure, of what does it mean to be Rachel in this life? What does it mean to be Karen in this life? That's a great adventure to me.

Karin: And it's a continual self-discovery where there can be so many, aha! Oh, now I get it. And that can be really those moments of inspiration, I think can really bolster us and help us to move forward, because when you put together the pieces of the puzzle, it can be very connecting and inspiring. So what are some of these pieces that you work on with people? What are some of these things that people benefit from learning when they work with you?

[16:58] Rachel: It's a process. Right? In fact, right now I'm teaching a course called be your own best friend. And this really is a comprehensive course in how to develop that foundation of self. And what we want or what we need in order to really, truly befriend ourselves is self-acceptance. And in order to do that, there are three areas that we really need to work on along the path, which is, first of all, self awareness. Being aware of what we do, what we think, how we behave non-judgmentally, being aware. Right. We don't want to judge ourselves once we turn the focus on our awareness. And that's the mind part. Right? So, as a holistic therapist, I work with mind, body and spirit. So the mind part of it is that self-awareness, then we need self-compassion, which includes self-love. And that's more of a spiritual thing. This compassion, this love, this desire to accept ourselves where we are, but still honor the fact that we want to shift or change or improve or alter a few things in our life. And having that self compassion not only helps us, and this is what you were talking about earlier, it really helps us to turn compassion toward others. Once we can start to feel it in ourselves, we naturally want to share that with others. And then we also need self-trust. And this is more. I consider this part of the body aspect of the work, because trust requires us to know who we are, where we are, how we think, and that involves a lot of internal, physical, somatic work, which is to say, when I'm feeling something, where am I feeling it? What is it trying to tell me? How can I look at my body as an ally when I'm having these big emotions that seem like they're carrying me away? What if I know when I'm feeling shame, I feel that in the pit of my solar plexus, right at the base of my stomach, or maybe at the top of my stomach, I start to feel, oh, I know what that is. The self part of me is hurting right now. And to be able to trust that I understand that about myself, to trust that my body will take care of itself, knows how to self-regulate, which is one of the things that I work on with clients and students is how do I manage those feelings so that I can begin to trust. Right. So there are many different tools and modalities that I use to help us to sort of light up these aspects, the awareness and compassion and trust so that we have, ultimately, self-acceptance. And when we have self-acceptance, it's much easier to accept others where they are on their path.

[20:20] Karin:: Yeah, absolutely. It does start with us. So there's so many directions I would love to take. You know, one of the books that I recommend to just about all my clients is Kristen Neff's Self Compassion. So I love that that's an important piece of the work that you do. What gets in the way of people showing themselves self compassion in your experience?

[20:47] Rachel: Well, again, I think it's that self-talk, the dialogue or maybe monologue that runs in our head that's just designed. You know, it's not even real. It's just the. The information that we've been fed that we don't really pause and question, and that can cause a lot of obstacles to appear on our path. It makes it very difficult for us to be self-compassionate because we're still believing this crap message that we're no good or that we're not good enough. Right. It's much easier to show compassion toward others. Right. So when we think about what is compassion? Well, compassion is empathy plus the desire to help or to assist someone through pain. And it's so much easier to do that for others. And so I was just on a call Today, and we were talking about this very thing where one of the students was having an issue with her personal self-image. And she said, if I had a friend who was going through this, I would be very caring and loving toward her and gentle toward her. And I said, well, what's the difference between you doing that for her and doing it for yourself? Dead silence, right? It's a hard question to answer, and I didn't say this then, but a little bit tongue in cheek. What makes you so special that you deserve to be crapped on? Why are you the only one in the whole planet who does not deserve compassion? It's very silly when we think of it that way.

[22:41] Karin:: Right? People tend to hold themselves to a higher standard. No one can be as bad as I am. There is something really bad about me at my core. And we hold that so strongly oftentimes.

[22:58] Rachel: Yeah.

[22:59] Karin:: So it sounds like you're talking really largely about the self-critic that just about all of us have running through our minds, telling us these stories about ourselves. Right.

[23:11] Rachel: Right. And remember, when we apply non judgment to the critic, the critic can become an ally. Right. So when we're not judging that voice that says, you're no good and you're not good, you'll never get that job. That guy or that girl is never going to love you. When we don't judge the voice, but when we listen and discern, that's the difference. Right? The difference between being judgmental and discerning. We could say, well, how true is that statement? How true is it that I'm never going to get that job or I'm not good or smart enough to get that job? Maybe that's not my decision to make. Maybe it's the people who are hiring me. They get to make that decision. Right. And so when we calm down and just literally, and I say this to my clients and students all the time, talk to yourself when you can talk to yourself out loud. I am a proponent of full on dialogue with your highest self. Inquire, what do you mean, I'm not good enough? Tell me, how are you not good enough? How am I not good enough? I want to hear. I'm all ears. Give me the list. And then the list will come. And usually it's very short because when we stop and actually ask ourselves, we come up short. Well, because remember, we are designed to succeed. And I don't mean that in a business way. I mean, we're designed to thrive. That the highest self won't let you kick your own butt too much. It will say, oh, well, no, it's true. I've never done this job before, but I've done things that are new in the past, and I did okay. Right. So you begin to talk yourself out of it. So the self critic is also there to protect you from getting hurt or making a fool of yourself. But when you sit down and talk with it calmly and without judgment, you begin to see there are many other paths than just staying in that stuck place or feeling criticized.

[25:25] Karin:: Yeah. Wonderful. And it also reminds me of how when we learn self-compassion, it helps us to also be more honest with ourselves and use that discernment so that we can see our faults, but also our gifts and everything more accurately for how we really are.

[25:52] Rachel: Yeah, exactly. And really, again, always circling back to when we have negative self talk, or what I call the small s talk, as opposed to the capital s self, capital s self being our highest self that has our best interests in mind, the small s self being the ego. Right. And not that ego in and of itself is a bad thing, but the ego that wants to control the show. When we encounter the negative self talk or the small s self-talk, to keep inquiring, keep asking, well, how true is that statement? What is it you're trying to tell me? What good is this thing you're trying to foist upon me? That no one will ever love me? How is that helping me? No, there's no help at all. I just want you to stay at home on the couch alone for the rest of your life. Okay? Is that really what we want? When you keep asking in a neutral kind of way, you can usually talk yourself right out of all that stuff.

[27:03] Karin: So going back to the self-trust, would you say that tapping into your intuition is part of that self trust work that you do?

[27:11] Rachel: Yeah. I mean, our intuition is like a facet of our highest self. It's the part of us that already knows the part that's connected to source, the part that's connected to the eternal, the place from which we came. We're given that intuition for a reason, and we've all experienced it. You don't have to be sitting at the foot of a guru for 20 years to figure out what that means. Or it's not new age stuff. You have intuition. When you walk into a room and say, this doesn't feel right, something's wrong here, that's intuition, right? And so we all have it. It's just a matter of listening to it. That is the self trust part is to say, I trust that I can make a decision guided by my intuition, guided by my intellect, guided by my experience. And if I make a mistake, that's okay, right? We're so afraid to make mistakes, but that's how we learn, right? So you start a job and you didn't like it. All right, get another job. It sounds easier said than done. But the truth is, I think all of us at some point have done something like that. Or you're at a party and you're not connecting with anybody. Leave. Say goodbye to the host and get out. You don't have to stay if your intuition is telling you this isn't the place you want to be, or maybe you're just tired, otherwise you would have had a great time. But you're beat, and somebody asks you you want to go take a walk or a hike or something, and you don't because you're beat to be able to say, I'm being called to stay home and take a nap. That's okay, too. That's all about that. Intuition and self-trust and listening. Listening.

[29:13] Karin:: And how do you help people discern the difference between saying no to something and avoiding?

[29:20] Rachel: Oh, that's a great question. Right. So this comes back to our body. So if you're saying no, let's use a hypothetical. Maybe you should give me one. Give me a hypothetical where something like that would come up where you would say no as opposed to, yeah, so.

[29:46] Karin:: How about you get invited to a party and everything inside you says, no, I don't want to go to this. Is it because you're trying to take care of yourself, or is it because you're avoiding a social situation because it.

[30:00] Rachel: Makes you great example. Okay, so let's use that. Somebody invites you. So then your first instinct, your first feeling about is, I don't want to go. So you drop into your body and you weigh both options. So you ask yourself, what's the real reason I don't want to go to this party? I'm tired. I've been social all week. I really don't feel like doing this right now. And then you introduce the other one. Are you afraid of socializing? Are you afraid that you'll say something stupid or you'll drink too much or whatever it is? Well, yeah, there's a little bit of that. Okay, so which one is louder? Which one is speaking to you more clearly? Because oftentimes we get into the people pleasing mode and we start to doubt what our instincts really are or our intuition is telling us. Because I don't want to let my friend down. She's going to think that if I don't go, that I'm being antisocial, and then et cetera, et cetera. But none of that is real. None of that is real. That's all a play that you're running on the stage of your mind. So that's why dropping into your body and paying attention to how you feel when you introduce both options. Yeah, I'm really tired. I really don't feel like socializing. Well, usually when we go out, we hate it at first, and then we have a good time. You don't want to miss on that, do you? If that makes sense to you, then, yeah, I've done that a dozen times. Like, no, I do not want to go out tonight. No. And then I say, but go. And then I go, and I have a great time. Now, sometimes that happens, sometimes that doesn't. But what matters is you're listening to yourself and there is no right or wrong. And to take it into, like, a more serious subject, let's say you're presented with the opportunity to speak in front of a large group of people on a topic that you know well, and your first feeling is, no, I don't want to do that. And when you do that, self inquiry, what's the reason? And maybe it's some of the same thing. I've been working too hard. I'm physically exhausted. It's 45 minutes away, it's unpaid. Whatever it is, then those are all feelings that resonate when you drop into your body. It's like, yes, that's what it is. But if you're looking at it from a perspective of, I'm afraid I'll make a fool of myself, I'm afraid. Even though this is a subject I know very well, what if they don't like me? That's fear. So then you can go deeper and ask the question of what is it that you really fear? And how true is that fear? And you do this. That's why talking to ourselves is so important. It's not enough to just get a download and go like, well, that's the answer. I mean, sometimes we need to do a back and forth, right? So there have been times in my own life where I've been asked to do something and all the reasons that I just mentioned, too far away and there's no parking in the city or whatever, and it's like, that's not worth it for me. There have also been times I've been invited to do something where immediately I had almost like a clash, like a thundercloud of yes and no at the same time. And when that happens, I find that's probably a yes. And you might just need to push through a little bit of fear, right, to just say, look, this is a beautiful opportunity. It might be a drag, it's going to take up your entire day, but it's new and exciting and who knows what will happen? Go with the adventure. So really dropping in again without judgment and without an agenda, because if you're not doing something based on fear, that's a whole different package of self talk that you can engage in self inquiry. What is it you fear? How true is it? What would it be like if we just did it? How much of this is impostor syndrome? How much of this is real? And then you can usually work through that fear at some point and be gentle with yourself. If you decide you're not ready yet, maybe the next time I'll do it. Okay.

[34:58] Karin: I love that because I think it could be really easy for us to say, oh, my body. I checked in with myself and my body said no. So the answer is no. And we can really end up using that as an avoidance technique so that we don't do the hard things and we don't grow. But I love your self inquiry approach so that we dig a little deeper to look at what's underneath that. What is underneath that? No.

[35:28] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And again, I can't stress enough without judgment because the first thing we think is, oh, well, I don't want to not do it because I'm afraid that makes me a loser. Right. Judge, judge, judge, judge. If we throw all that away and we just have a conversation with ourself, then we can actually come to a decision a lot quicker.

[35:49] Karin: So we've been talking a lot about the self development piece and how we grow, but we haven't talked yet about more the relational piece and that connection with others. So I'm curious, what are some of the problems that you're seeing people struggle with and how you might help them with those issues?

[36:10] Rachel: Yeah, well, we live in a world with others, and so a lot of the conflicts that we have are relational conflicts. And again, this comes back to, how do I show up in a relationship? How do I show up? And again, I don't necessarily mean a romantic relationship, but a relationship with family or friends or colleagues or whatever. So some of the issues that can come up is people pleasing. Like, let me just make sure everybody else is okay, and then I'll be okay, as opposed to let me make sure I'm okay, and everybody else can sort themselves out, because that's not my concern. You know what I mean? Right. And again, that has a lot to do with having a strong foundation of self where you're able to know that the decision you make for yourself is right for you, and you're making it from a clean and clear place, not trying to harm anyone and not trying to. Certainly not harming yourself. So, yeah, people pleasing, a lot of resentments from past wounds particularly. I deal a lot in my practice with women and their mothers. There's a lot of conflict around there, whether it's intergenerational or it's just different styles of communication. Right. Again, when we talk about compassion, when we talk about non-judgment, we're also talking about non judgment. Of others. So what would it be like to just let your mother, whatever it is, do the thing that she likes to do that you find abhorrent, whatever it is, as long as it's not in your way. So, for example, like, just working with someone whose mother, he was saying that she copies him if they go out to eat. She orders what he orders. It drives him up a wall. I said, well, infuriated. He's infuriated by this. And so we were talking a little bit about his history with his mother, and was she there for him as a child? Which she was not necessarily caught up in her own stuff. But now why is she so obsessed with pleasing me or doing things for me? And over the years, he had become kind of standoffish with his mom, loves his mother, but a little bit standoffish. And when he did have an opportunity to be with her, we collaboratively realized that this was her way to connect to him in the only way she could, because she couldn't sit down and just have a chat with him because he was so bristly from all the past resentment and pain. Right? So her way to bond with him was to order the same dish. Like, look at us doing things together, right? That was her way. And then he could have a little more compassion and understand it a little bit better. So that's an example, too. So I guess it's not just women and their mothers. It was men with their mums, too, and sometimes their dads.

[39:51] Karin:: Women who are in midlife, are there some themes that you are seeing come up for them specifically that might be different for other groups of people?

[40:01] Rachel: Yeah. So I do work with women in midlife as a sort of subset of this foundation of self work. What's different for women in midlife is that oftentimes they have what looks to be an established life, family, whatever that might look like for them, career. And they've got 40, 50, 60 years of experience under their belt. And then they look around and go, now what? Why am I feeling the clock is ticking on my life and I feel so lost? I've got all these things. I've spent my life creating this life, and it's really not satisfying. And what's different for women, and frankly, men, but specifically for women in midlife, is that we are being called to service. We're being called to mentorship. This is why I say it's a subset of the larger work, is it's no longer about our accomplishments. I'm saying our. Because I'm a woman in midlife but it's no longer about the accomplishments. It's about taking those accomplishments, crafting them into wisdom, and sharing that wisdom with younger generations, because that's the thing at this point that we are called to do. So when we look at psychology, Eric Erickson's stages of development, we're in stage seven at this point, which is stagnation versus generativity. We can either stay stuck where we are and then wait to die, or we can be generative. And the way that I translate the word generative is to give back, is to create more helpful lives, to contribute to something larger than ourselves. And that's a really important aspect. So when I work with women in midlife and they begin to shift and start to see, like, not only is it important for me to have done all the things that I've done, because experience is not wisdom. Experience needs to be translated into wisdom. We have to understand the lessons of our experience so that we can translate it into wisdom and then share it. Right. And at this age, we are being called to do that. Now, the problem for women in midlife is that most of the time, we are also dealing with perimenopause, which is a pain in the butt.

[42:52] Karin: You read my mind.

[42:55] Rachel: So, meanwhile, while we are stepping into this beautiful phase of our life, we feel like crap. We're psychotic, we're sweaty, we're hot, everything hurts, and our periods are wonky, and we're hemorrhaging every three weeks, and we are not feeling very sexy, needless to say. And we're not feeling very vital. So to kind of push through that, and this is, again, why non judgment and self compassion are so important, is to say, yeah, I am in transition. I'm cocooning right now, and what am I doing? So this is a great thing for women to do in midlife while they are cocooning into and becoming this butterfly of the menopausal or postmenopausal being, stepping into eldership, which is gorgeous, this is the time to be transferring and doing the work of your life experience into wisdom and begin to share it. Just get into the practice of doing that so that you can be a proper elder. And I promise you, because now I'm done. I'm menopausal. It's so beautiful on this side, right? All of the brain fog is gone. It's cleared the hormonal ups and downs and energetically, we're no longer bleeding our energy out every month. We are retaining it. The indigenous peoples call it wiseblood. For that reason, when we enter this phase of our life. We are literally holding in this life force that was once there for the birthing of babies, and now it's nourishing us. Right? So it's a beautiful time for women if we would just never look at social media again.

[45:02] Karin: Oh, my gosh, I love it.

[45:06] Rachel: Indeed.

[45:08] Karin: And I see so many women struggling at this point because maybe a relationship is falling apart or they're realizing that they want to take their life in a different direction, or they're trying to make sense of what has happened to them. And yet I also see that as, like you said, kind of a cocooning, a transformation process where they can emerge from the other side with so much wisdom and realizing that they have done so many great things with their lives, and now they can enjoy it.

[45:49] Rachel: Yeah, and enjoy it. And share it. Right. Because, again, back to what we were saying at the beginning. When you are centered in yourself, when you are accepting of yourself and you are your own best friend, that's infectious, man. Like, go ride a bus and people are going to gravitate to you. You know, when you've been around somebody who's grounded and centered in themselves, it's just lovely to be around. It's like walking out into the sunshine. Right? That's no pressure. We're not always sunshiny, but even when you're having a bad day, and I can speak from experience, even if you're having a bad day, the core of your being is still there. We're all allowed to have bad days. We're all allowed to feel down now and again. Of course, that's what it means to be fully human. Thank goodness we get to have the full range of emotions. That's a lovely human thing. But I'm talking about your overall being. Right. And so, yeah, to be centered in who you are. And I don't mean, like, in people's face about it, because I've seen that, particularly for women in midlife. But that's just a show. That's a show of screw everybody else, I'm fabulous. And when you have to broadcast it that way, to me, that's usually, like, there's some work that probably still needs to be done, but that is not, my God bless, have a wonderful life doing that. Whatever works for you. But what I'm saying is you don't have to go through acrobatics in order to share your gifts with the world. That can be energetic as well as, say, occupational.

[47:39] Karin: Yeah. What that brings up for me is if someone's needing to broadcast that, there's still a need that they're trying to fill.

[47:46] Rachel: Yeah. The small s. Self needs food.

[47:52] Karin: Right. And so that kind of brings us full circle. Came back to that self-work, that self development, that becoming or realizing that you are whole and claiming all those parts of yourself.

[48:08] Rachel: Yeah, absolutely. And as you can see with this offshoot, say, of women in midlife, there's a very specific flavor that that work takes on. And if I'm working with, let's say, the queer community, it's a different flavor that that takes on. And so those are just two examples. How do you step into your true self, and how do you make sure that you are an agent of goodness in the world? I very much hesitate to say positivity, because we're not always positive, and we don't have to be always positive. How can we be authentic in the world? And clear seeing and clear thinking, clear feeling. Yeah.

[49:00] Karin: If there's one thing that you'd like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be?

[49:09] Rachel: I would love for people to really know how powerful they are. Right. That it may seem that we are nothing in the grand scheme of things, in the cosmos. How tiny our planet is in the solar system, of many solar systems, and yet we're this tiny, one little person on that tiny little planet. And how insignificant we often feel. However, because this is a web of energy, who you are plays a huge part in the collective and the way that we interact with one another. And I'll just give you a brief example, is if you are in line at the grocery store and you've waited a long time, but you're centered in yourself, and you're not pissed off or whatever, and you have a chat with the person ahead of you while you're waiting, and you make that person smile, that changes their energy. And then, in turn, when somebody steals their cart in the shopping, in the parking lot, they may not react in a negative way. They may be, look, that's okay. No problem. And that can spread. The person who might have stolen their cart goes, I wasn't even thinking. I'm so sorry. And their energy changes, and you have no idea this is happening in the parking lot. So that's how powerful you are. One little thing that you can do just by being who you are, can ripple out and affect so many people in whatever way you determine. Wow, that's a lot of power, right? Yeah. So don't forget that. And that you're vital. You're important.

[51:06] Karin: Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, that reminds me, puts that metaphor about, or the story about the butterfly that beats its wings and affects the weather patterns of the entire world?

[51:19] Rachel: Yeah, well, there's a reason for that. And if a butterfly can do it, well, a human being certainly can as well.

[51:29] Karin: So what role does love play in the work that you do?

[51:34] Rachel: Well, it's all of it. It's the question and the answer. Love is the motivating force for all, I believe. And I don't mean that in a new-agey way. I mean that love is. When we talk about self acceptance, compassion, awareness, trust, all of that stems from love. The act of creation is love. The act of destruction is love. It is the belief that we are all taking part in this thing, this huge organism of being together, which I find extremely loving. Now, that's the meta version. But one on one with my clients or one on one or in a group with students, there's a lot of love and a lot of playfulness. We don't often get the kind of love that we want as children, and so we have to create that for ourselves. I do my best to bring that to sessions and also into classes as well. And what I notice is that when I'm working with groups, they're starting to generate more love amongst each other and then naturally for themselves. So it's a huge, huge part of pretty much everything I do, and I love what I do. So that's infused in everything that I do as well.

[53:15] Karin: Thank you for sharing. I love that. So how can people learn more about you?

[53:21] Rachel: Well, probably the easiest way is to go to my website, which is rachelastartetherapy.com, or if you don't want to remember my name, that way you can also go to myselfpath.com. Myselfpath.com takes you to the same place. It's easier for people to remember myself path. And I'm on social media too, so you can follow me on Instagram, which is Rachelastarte therapy. Same for Facebook. Any variation of Rachel Astarte, you'll find me on all the major. Yeah, great.

[53:59] Karin: And I'll put that in the show notes as well.

[54:01] Rachel: So thank you. Yeah.

[54:03] Karin: Rachel, thank you so much for being here with me and having this conversation. I think we touched on some really important things for people to think about.

[54:11] Rachel: Thank you so much, Karin. It was delightful. What a great conversation.

Outro:

[54:16] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you liked the show and think others would enjoy it, I'd really appreciate it if you left me a review. You can also sign up for my weekly newsletter where you'll get tips about relationships and personal growth by going to my website, drcalde.com. That's drcalde.com. I make it easy to sign up and easy to cancel at any time. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

If you're dating, you’ve probably had the experience of being “friend zoned.” And, perhaps, you’re someone who relegates others to the friend zone. Friends are great to have, but if you’re looking for true love, you might want to understand how to avoid this from happening. 

In this episode we talk about how to avoid the friend zone. We also talk about boundaries, sexuality, body language, why chemistry can be a red flag, and to bring sexuality into your daily life (trust me, this is a good thing!). I’m glad you’re here!

 

Biography:

Magda Kay is an intimacy expert, certified Tantra teacher, speaker, and author on a mission to help individuals around the world experience more love, pleasure, and intimacy. For almost a decade, her advice on relationship dynamics has helped countless singles and couples alike live more fulfilling and authentic lives in and outside of the bedroom. With a degree and background in business, Magda has a natural gift for translating esoteric concepts into practical, easy-to-understand ideas so that everyone can enjoy the fulfilling intimate life they deserve. 

Magda is the founder of the School of Intimacy, an online academy that teaches people essential skills for building happy, passionate relationships with others and themselves. This year, she published her first book, No more Faking It, a guide for women to living a more fulfilled life. She also works one-on-one with individual clients both online and in person.

How to learn more about Magda:

Website: https://magdakay.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magdakayofficial/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/magdakay

How to learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

Episode:

Hello, everybody. It's February and I am longing for spring. I don't know about you, but it is Valentine's Day week and I thought about doing a special episode for Valentine's Day. But the thing is, every day is Valentine's Day on this podcast because we're always talking about love. So I'm just going to keep going. And today I'm going to be talking to Magda Kay, who is a relationship and intimacy expert. So imagine this. Imagine you're in the dating world and you are seeing someone and you really like them, but then all of a sudden they start dating somebody else and you realize you've been friend zoned. Or perhaps you're a woman and you've been dating men and they're all just too nice to be in a relationship with and you haven't been able to find that true love. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking about this. We're going to be talking about the friend zone and how to avoid it. And this is for men and women. All right, I hope you like it. And here we go. Welcome, Magda.

 

[02:10] Magda: Wow. Thank you for having me.

[02:12] Karin: I'm really happy to have you here. Thank you for making the time. Tell us where you are in the world.

[02:18] Magda: Well, at the moment, I am in Poland, which is my home country, and it's very, very cold. I'm not used to this anymore because I spent over a decade in Southeast Asia, living in tropics, in fact, on small tropical islands. And then I decided to come back to Europe and it's minus twelve and it's really cold and my body is like, what are you doing, you crazy woman?

[02:44] Karin: What is going on here? Yeah, now that as we're recording this, it's the beginning of January, so I can imagine you must be in the heart of the cold.

[02:56] Magda: I'm handling it.

[02:58] Karin: Good. And what drew you there?

[03:04] Magda: Well, so I am from Poland. I was born and raised here. But you know what? When I was a teenager, my dad went bankrupt, and I just so happened to be doing a high school exchange in the US when that happened. And so I went through this weird association in my mind that Poland equals poverty and all the problems and just all the bad things. And the host family I was staying with in the US, they had this massive house, they took me to Hawai. So I just associated being abroad with a better life. So ever since I was 17 when that happened, ever since, I honestly have been just trying to run away from Poland. And yes, like I said, I spent over a decade in Southeast Asia, which is a lovely place. I lived in Malaysia, Thailand, Bali, but I was feeling more and more that I am missing the western drive. I'm missing being around ambitious people a bit more business and money focused, because I was living in a. We'll get into this. But I was living in a yogic tantric community, which it's a bit know the hippie world, and I was missing this western mindset. So I decided to come back to Europe. But I will be honest with you, discovering that I actually want to stay in Poland, that was a surprise, because, like I said, I spent half of my life trying to escape this country. I still don't really know what this decision is all about. And honestly, it would seem so easy to just, yeah, let me go back home. For me, it is really a big decision. I feel like it's clearing a lot of things. A lot of things, yeah.

[04:46] Karin: Good for you. It sounds like a good growth opportunity for you and an opportunity for self discovery, that is for sure.

[04:53] Magda: Yes.

[04:54] Karin: That's great. Good. Well, tell us what you do.

[04:58] Magda: So I am an intimacy coach. So what I do is I help people have better love and sex life. And my work is about combining tantra with psychology. So, like I said, I lived over a decade in those crazy yogi, tantric conscious communities that are very unique. To be fair, I can just say it was a sex cult, because pretty much it was. But I dove very, very deep into tantric teachings, the teachings of sacred sexuality and yoga and energy work and meditation. But I always loved human behavior. I always loved psychology. So I combine these two words, making it on one hand, making tantra more accessible to an average person in the west. But also what I see is that usually in the west, if you have anyone talk about sexuality and intimacy, these are sexologists, and they have this very medical approach to intimacy. And I feel like we are missing a more subtle, spiritual aspect to it. So I try to blend these two words in my work. So that's what I do.

[06:08] Karin: Beautiful. And what I have been learning is that tantra is not just about sex, it's about so much more. And that's not the focus of our conversation today. But I do want to say that out loud for the people listening, because I think that especially in the US, it's come to be synonymous with sex.

[06:29] Magda: Yes. Unfortunately, I get asked very often, what is tantra? Is it just about sex? And I think tantra is a spiritual path. And like you said, it's so much more than sex. But what happened is the same that happened with yoga. We took this profound, complex spiritual path and we just took one bit of it. And now everyone wears leggings and goes to yoga studios and stretches their body and we call it yoga. That has 8% to do with yoga, maybe. And it's the same with tantra. It's a much more complex path. But our society just took one bit that we're most interested in, which is sex, and we're focusing on that. So unfortunately, if you search Tantra online, a lot of things you're going to get. It's going to be erotic massages and some form of sex work. So I will tell people that, yes, tantra is more than that, but a lot of erotic services use tantra as branding because it's popular now. So just be mindful. When you search for something and for some coaches, just be mindful. You may get some strictly sex offers.

[07:35] Karin: Right. Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, that's definitely a future topic of conversation on this podcast. But today we're going to be talking a little bit more about the dating world and specifically about something called the friend zone. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about what that is.

[07:59] Magda: Yes. So, you know, when I talk about intimacy, what is intimacy? I always explain it like this. We know what it means to be a friend, and we know what it means to be lovers. But intimacy is somewhere in between these two relationships. So we have the friendship, we have the depth, we have sexuality, but it's this area that not many people talk about, and that is really intimacy. So if you end up being friend zone, you're not in intimacy, you're not in an intimate relationship with the person. You get stuck a little bit out of it because some of it overlaps, but you're kind of not playing the game that you probably want to be playing. And unfortunately, it is a big issue these days because the society has changed a lot. The dating world has changed a lot. There's so many global changes. We let go of gender roles, and we don't yet know what to replace it with. But people feel lost because they don't have a new sort of guideline to follow. We have dating apps, which, if you think of it, it's like a modern way of matchmaking, which we always had, but our society didn't really have matchmaking for a few generations. So now we're just, like, finding ourselves in this dating environment, which is very new, and we don't yet know how to navigate it. We lost a lot of confidence because we're online all the time, and we don't develop social skills the way we used to. We're extremely suppressed sexually. So then you like someone, but all you know is either how to hook up with this person or how to become friends. And so we end up usually on one of these extremes, while what most of us, both men and women, want is that intimate relationship. So friend zone is one of the extremes we fall into when we really want to be in an intimate relationship. That's how I like to look at it.

[09:58] Karin: Oh, that's so interesting. And does it tend to happen to men, women, both? What are you seeing?

[10:04] Magda: So, definitely men have a big problem with this. And I think for many, it's just a different situation because we live in a post me too movement, and men are really afraid of showing their sexuality too much, of showing their desire. It's also really interesting what's been happening to men, because men are expected to be emotional, considerate, basically. They're expected to be more like women, and they don't really know how to be. So men are very, very scared to show desire, to show this animalistic self to women, and so they end up being friend zoned almost all the time. But maybe that's a surprise for some people. But women can get friend zoned just as well. And I think I would have a guess that every woman listening can think of at least one time when she really liked a guy, but she was unable to move from the friendship to something more. And maybe you don't realize, but what happened is that you got friend zone. There is a few things that happened that got you stuck in the dynamic that you don't actually want to be in. So, yes, it does happen to both men and women.

[11:21] Karin: So how does it happen?

[11:23] Magda: So here is what we're doing, and I think both men and women, a lot of it comes down to being afraid of our sexuality, because if you think of it, this is what I tell my couples when I work with them. Sex is the foundation of your relationship because if you take away sex, you have friendship. Right? So I'm not saying this is the only thing that matters and that this is the only thing you need for a good relationship. But the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship is really the presence of sex. So sex is important, but we feel so uncomfortable talking about sex. We feel uncomfortable flirting, and so we try to connect, but because we don't include the element of sexuality, we end up forming friendship. Now look what's been happening historically. So in the past, women were not allowed to show their sexual desire. Right. We're just like, no, nothing. Me, no, I'm a lady. And men were the leaders. Men would always pursue a woman. Now, that role for men has been changing a lot. A lot. One of them being is that women started saying, hey, there is such a thing as boundaries and consent, so maybe don't be so pushy. So then men stop pursuing women sexually to the degree that it used to be. But women, we haven't fully stepped into our position of expressing our sexuality. So now you have these two people kind of like. So who should kind of bring the sexuality into this conversation, and no one does because both people now are uncomfortable. That's kind of how it happens.

[13:04] Karin: So we don't know how to initiate.

[13:06] Magda: Yes. And by this, I don't mean sex. By the way, when I say sexuality, I do not mean sex. I don't mean about jumping into the bed with each other. I mean allowing that sexual energy to flow between you and. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? It's this chemistry, this tension, the polarity. You feel that, like, when you're with someone, you don't just want to feel comfortable and happy and joyful. You want to feel a bit of the tension. You want to be, like, teasing each other, building this anticipation of something. And that requires a lot of confidence. These are proper flirting skills that a lot of us just don't have anymore because we communicate via these little computers that we all have in our bag. So we kind of lost the art and then. Exactly. We try to flirt and we just end up being friendly. So we're missing that ability to flirt in a more sexual way to bring the tension that is really what puts both men and women into the friend zone on a bigger scale, of course. And then there are specific things we say and we do that don't support us.

[14:18] Karin: Do you think it's mostly an unconscious thing that happens or do you think that people are deliberately thing, you know, they're not a mate for me, they're a friend.

[14:28] Magda: Okay, this is a bit tricky. You know what? Because if you think of dating, sometimes you meet someone and you're not really sure how you feel, and so you just go ahead and you want to see, will this evolve into something more or not? And I think one of the difficulties here is that we don't have strict boundaries, that this is just friendship, this is just a relationship. That's how we have friends with benefits. That's what I was looking for, right? When suddenly the boundaries of these different relationships, they kind of blend. So I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but there will be cases when it absolutely is. And I've done this when I met a guy and I see that he's into me and I see that he's flirting and I just feel uncomfortable and I don't want it. I'll do a few things to very clearly establish that this is just friendship. So I think it's both.

[15:23] Karin: What are those things that send that message?

[15:28] Magda: Well, okay, I'm going to tell you just a story first. That's just something that came to my mind because what are the things that we say? Because you never know how it's going to be interpreted. So many years ago, when I was living in Milan, that was already in the phase. When I was running away from Poland, I moved to Milan, Italy. And many years ago, I used to party and drink. At that time, I don't now. So we're out in a club and I was done. I was ready to go home. So I'm sitting in a chair with my jacket, waiting for my friend to get her thing so we can go home. So I'm sitting there and there's a chair next to me, and I see this guy coming up to me. And Italians especially can be like a lot. So I see he's approaching me and I'm just like, oh, goodness. Just, no, I'm not reacting, right? He sits next to me, I'm not reacting. And he's trying to pick up a conversation. And I just like, I don't really answer. I just say, like, yes, no, that's it, right? And then he says, I like such mysterious women. I'm not trying to be mysterious.

[16:38] Karin: Trying to send you a message.

[16:41] Magda: So I will say that our intention of communicating something may not necessarily be the same thing that's being received by the other person.

[16:52] Karin: Right.

[16:52] Magda: Things that I usually try to do is I would maybe speak about a guy that I like. I will be very careful not to talk about sex, nudity, or nothing of that sort. So there are just, like, certain conversations that are off topic. I'll keep a bit more physical distance from the person. I'm naturally pretty touchy, very affectionate. So I'm just like, okay, I need to be mindful here. And to be fair, when I meet with these people, I try to dress in a bit more conservative way. I love summer dresses that show my back and everything, but I may just be a bit extra careful how I dress when I meet with someone that I am not interested in, just so they don't think that I'm making a special effort for them. Usually that would be for me. Stay away from the conversations about sex and nudity. Dress in a bit of a modest way, and I would often just mention some other guy that I like. But again, some men may consider this green flags. And, yes, she's into me, so. Right, I can't be responsible for.

[17:58] Karin: But it sounds like you're trying to be careful about the messages that you send in those cases.

[18:03] Magda: Yes. And I think you know something that I would say that is easy, probably, to recognize. If you want to, like, you got to want to look for signs, not like this guy who thought I was just being flirty with him because I didn't want to answer his question. If you tune into the other person, you can see how comfortable they feel. Is their body and their energy open and towards you, or are they slightly shut down and trying to find a bit more space between you? If you pay attention to the person, you can say it. You can feel it. So am I opening myself to you? Right. Like, is my chest moving towards you, or am I trying to shut down a little bit and pull away? So reading the body and reading the energy honestly is the best. So I just say, try to do this, because, again, we may do something, we may say things, and we may really mean totally different things.

[18:58] Karin: Yeah, and I agree with that. Body language is so important, and I think that once people learn a little bit more about that, it becomes easier to figure out if someone is interested in you.

[19:12] Magda: Yes. And it's a skill. So maybe for now, it just seems, like, impossible to do because these are subtle moves in the body. But like you said, if you practice, you will pick it up pretty fast, because this is unconscious, and it's a natural skill that we have. Just like, we can read emotions based on a person's facial expression. There's actually parts in the brain that are responsible for that. So you're built to recognize whether a person is open or if they're contracted. It's just about bringing back sensitivity to that awareness.

[19:49] Karin: Tuning in? Yeah, absolutely. So in talking about the friend zone, so it sounds like you're seeing a lot of women relegating male partners to the friend zone lately.

[20:06] Magda: Yes.

[20:07] Karin: So it seems a little bit like self sabotaging behavior.

[20:11] Magda: Or is it? Look, I will say this with a lot of shifts in the dating world, I do understand as a woman that for many women, the kind of a partner we want, it may be difficult to find it. So then you're meeting guys, and they're nice, they're fun, and you would be happily, like, you'd happily hang out with them and be friends, but you wouldn't necessarily want to date them. And I have quite a few male friends like this. They're incredible human beings. I love them, but if I was to date them, I would go crazy because they have commitment issues. They don't know how to communicate. I hear them talk about women they date. I was like, I would not want to be one of them. So in some cases, this is just a smart move for a woman that she chooses to keep him as a friend instead of going into a relationship. But I think in some cases, we do it as a form of protecting ourselves because we're so scared. And if you think of this to be really good friends with someone, you need to trust this person. Like, friendships last often longer than our intimate relationships. We're not talking about acquaintances, we're talking about proper friends. So you have this level of intimacy that I think if you were to take it into an intimate relationship, you're, like, going all the way because you already have this deep friendship. Now you're going to add sexuality. You're just being fully vulnerable, open and raw. And that is really scary. It's much easier to be sexual with someone without that deep friendship because you're still hiding parts of yourself. So you're protecting yourself. But having that deep, honest, true friendship and sexuality, that's the most vulnerable, the most honest place you can be in. And I think that sometimes when a woman feels very comfortable with a man and she is afraid to go the intimate path, so she's like, you know what? We're so good, so let's just make it a friendship. We're good here because she's afraid to go deeper. So I would say that happens too. And of course, the question is, which of the two is it in each of the situations. And I'd say this, if what he says about women seems disrespectful and you're like, gosh, this guy has issues. You're happy to friend zone him, but if the way he speaks about women is respectful and considerate and loving, maybe give him a chance. That would be my advice.

[22:53] Karin: And I think that's good advice because I also talk with women who say, well, but there's just not that chemistry. And I always tell women that that can be a red flag. Chemistry is not necessarily a sign that this is good. It can be just a repeat of old stuff and old patterns that you're trying to work out. So chemistry is not the test.

[23:17] Magda: Yes. And, you know, I'm someone with a more anxious attachment style. I come from a rather unbalanced, I would just say childhood emotionally unbalanced. Lots ups and lots of downs. And so, yeah, I was one of those women really chasing that chemistry and excitement and what it finally occurred to me after getting burned a lot, that that's not a good thing. And I realized that, oh, my God, in the past, I was waiting for the butterflies in my stomach. So that chemistry that you say, and if I feel it, I'm like, okay, let's explore it. And then I'm thinking now I'm just like, wow. I never even asked myself if this is a good man, if he has certain personality traits that I want. I never actually analyzed whether it's a decent person to be with. I was just, well, there is chemistry. So that's definitely a new thing. And I'll tell you, since we're talking about friends, I recently met a guy, and we became friends. Now he happens to be married, so he's a no go in any case. But I wasn't interested in him when we met. He just seemed like a really cool person to hang out with. So we've been spending time together, and he's not someone that I would be normally physically attracted to, but we're spending a lot of time together, and I'm realizing what a cool person he is. And I was actually messaging my bestie some time ago, saying, you know what? I could see myself becoming attracted to him. Now we're not going there, because, again, he is a family. But if he was single, maybe I would allow myself to feel more into that and who knows what would happen? So, yes, like you say, that chemistry, you don't need it at first. You probably don't want it to be very intense because it usually means it's a trauma bond. But a lot of it can really just show up over time. It doesn't have to show up in the first week or two.

[25:15] Karin: Yes, exactly. So what about for men? How can they avoid this?

[25:22] Magda: So the most important thing for men, I would say, is to don't be afraid to upset a woman. So men want to be nice, they want to be polite and respectful. And so if a woman asks for something, I do it. And when a man does that, a woman stops respecting you because she's like, oh, well, he's going to do whatever I want, okay, so I'm just going to use him. And a woman starts using a man so deep inside. And that's actually true for both men and women. Deep inside, we're just kids. And what do kids do? Well, kids want to see what can I get away with? How much can I push to still get what I want? And when is my mommy or daddy going to say no? And so kids test the boundaries. We all have that kid inside of us. So when we meet someone, especially in a romantic relationship, we're trying our luck. We're seeing how much can I push? How much can I get away with?

[26:24] Karin: What are the boundaries exactly?

[26:27] Magda: And so women, we all do this to each other, both. So then imagine a woman is playing this game with a guy and he never says no. So she's like, oh, I can use him more and use him more and use him more. And eventually he's not a man to her anymore. He's like either an ATM or a punching bag or like the quotation, like a friend, like a gay friend that every woman wants to have, which is basically having a male perspective, but make sure nothing ever happens between us. And he ends up being stuck in that role because he allowed that. So if she is playing a game of a kid, you as a man, you have to step up into adult role so that she can step up as well. Because an intimate relationship can only exist at the level of two adults. If she's playing a game that kids play, you're not going to be intimate, you're not going to have chemistry. This is also why you get friend zone, right? Because she doesn't look at you as a sexual partner anymore. Because her psychology, psychologically, she stepped down into being a child again. So the most important thing for men is to just tell a woman no. Now when I say say no to a woman, I don't mean be rude, I don't mean like play some power games. It's not that it's a loving boundary. It's a loving? No, you just, hey, no, this is not okay for me, or I'm not willing to do it. That's too much for me. Just like, be loving, be gentle, but say no, and you'll see that she will start looking at you as an adult, as a man, and she will respect you more. That is essential for a sexual romantic relationship to happen. If she doesn't respect you, you guys are not going to be intimate. It will never happen. So the first, most important thing is for her to respect you and for her to respect you, you got to be able to say no to a woman. Yes, she may be upset because she wants something, but you have to be okay with that. That sometimes you're going to upset her. It's not on purpose. You're not hurting her. You're just taking care of yourself. That is absolutely essential for men.

[28:37] Karin: Yeah. There's so much I want to say about this, and this, I think, is so important for all of our relationships.

[28:44] Magda: Right.

[28:46] Karin: We teach people how to treat us by our boundaries. Yes, this is okay. Yes, this is not okay. So I think that is so important and such a great thing to talk about. But I also imagine that this is really hard for the nice guy.

[29:06] Magda: Yes. I mean, it's hard for all nice people.

[29:11] Karin: Yes. People pleasers, people that don't want to upset the cart or risk the relationship or risk being rejected. Right. Or they're repeating a pattern with perhaps their caregivers.

[29:28] Magda: Yes. And I have so much compassion for that because that is my story. I'm still learning to speak up and say something when it crosses my boundaries. And it's not easy. Whether it's business, friendship, relationships, I know it's not easy. I'll tell you a story when I.

[29:47] Karin: Okay.

[29:48] Magda: There are two things that kind of started shifting and helping me. So the first one was when I was living in this small, tantric yogic community. So we're talking, really, it's like a village. Everyone knows each other. And I was dating this guy, and then we had a fallout. And honestly, he was just like, I don't know what happened, but he just blew up out of nowhere. And I messaged him saying, like, hey, the things you said yesterday, I understand you were upset, but I don't think it was okay that you projected and threw it at me. And, oh, my God. Then I got a long message, like, just attacking me in so many weird ways. And I was like, okay, clearly I was checking with my friends. I'm like, what do I do? And they said, look, he's clearly wanting to fight with you. There's nothing you can respond. Whatever you respond, he's going to just keep fighting. So just, like, just stop. And so I was thinking, okay, we live in this small community where everyone knows each other, and right now he's really triggered. I don't know what I did, but he's really triggered, and he's really angry at me, and there's nothing I can do. And I am pretty sure he's going to tell some of his friends about me, whatever his version of the situation is. And I will not get a chance to give my story. So there will be people that I will be meeting around, meeting for coffee or whatever, sitting in a yoga shala, and they will be in a class with me, and they may look at me and they may not like me. And it was the first time when I was like, I can't do anything about this, but, oh, my God, someone doesn't like me because I always wanted to be liked by everyone. Yeah, that was a very powerful moment for me. So if you have anyone that you kind of argued with or whatever, like something happened and you know they're angry at you, just sit with that. I know it's uncomfortable, but just sit with the fact that right now there is someone who doesn't like me. And then the second thing that helped me, there's this book, I think it's called the Sexual practices of Kodoshka. I think that's the full title of the book, but it talks about a tribe that apparently used to exist. So we're talking about some shamanic practices and philosophy, and in shamanic tribes, in shamanic spirituality, you usually split the world into four. So you have four directions, you have four elements, and so on. And so they're talking about relationships, human relationships. And again, they have a circle divided into four equal parts, like everything else in life. And that circle was divided like this. People who like me, people who love me, people who don't like me, people who hate me. And I was shocked because I was like, wait, so it's all going to be equal? Like, there will always be people who don't like me, and there will always be people who hate me because I was always trying to just fill the whole circle with people who like me and love me. Here you're telling me that. No. Statistically, one fourth of the planet is not meant to like me, and one fourth of this planet is meant to really dislike me, and only half of the planet is meant to like me or love me. So I was like, oh, okay. So statistically, some people will not like me. And for me, these two stories, these two instances, they really help me accept a bit more the fact that sometimes I will upset someone and be okay with that. So again, I have a lot of compassion for people pleasers because I'm a recovering one. And I hope that these two stories will help.

[33:27] Karin: Yeah, I think that's really great to understand that it's not going to be about you. Usually it's really about people's own stuff. But I love that helping you to really come to this place of acceptance, that this is just how the world works and it's okay because there's also those people that do love you.

[33:52] Magda: Exactly. And I will say this. You know what? Sometimes I think we either end up being friend zone or we put someone in the friend zone just because a person didn't speak up about the boundary. Because maybe I meet a guy and there are a few things that I'm not really happy about, and I would like them to be a bit different because they bother me a lot, but because I'm unable to speak about that thing, I'm just like, you know what? It would never work out. Let's just be friends. Because when you're friends, it's so much easier to avoid things. Right. If there's something that this person does that I don't like, I can just avoid them. Or suddenly, for like a month, maybe I just don't meet with you because, oh, I'm busy with work, so there's more space to create distance from the person in a friendship that there is in an intimate relationship, especially if you live together, you can just disappear and not talk to a person. So I think sometimes we may end up friend zoning someone who would be good for us just because we're afraid to speak up. And again, I can get friend zone. Whether I'm a man or a woman, I can get friend zone because I don't set those boundaries. So I think boundaries, like lack of boundaries, really kill a lot of potentially good relationships. Yeah.

[35:04] Karin: Okay. So boundaries is one thing, and it also sounds like it's a way to avoid conflict because we are so conflict averse.

[35:14] Magda: Yes.

[35:15] Karin: And we're afraid of it. We don't realize that it actually can be an opportunity to grow closer and grow our relationship. Right.

[35:25] Magda: I would say you're probably an expert on this because having been with someone for long, you had to navigate a lot of conflict. I think at first we may try to avoid it, but at some point you're like, yeah, I don't think I can do like ten years never pointing this out.

[35:41] Karin: Right, exactly. So what is something else that men can do to avoid this? Do you have other suggestions?

[35:49] Magda: Yes. And honestly, the same advice goes for women. Because remember, sometimes women can end up being friend zone as well, we don't think. Because we're like, what, I'm a woman, every man just wants to sleep with me. And then you realize, oh, no, he wants to sleep with the other woman. So this is for everyone. It's to bring a bit more sexuality in. Now, what I mean by this is it's not about being direct. Like, sexuality doesn't like being direct. It likes little games and teasing, the whole seduction game. It's meant to be playful, it's not meant to be obvious. So that's what I mean by bringing sexuality in. It's not to say, hey, want to have sex? No, absolutely not. But there are like a little things you can do to imply sexuality that really sets the tone differently than just having like a friendly coffee or friendly dinner. So first is the body movement. So especially for women, when you're sitting there, you can just play either with your hair, you can play with your neck. Like just touch your neck gently, or your chest, your cleavage, you can play with your wrist or your forearm, just gently touch yourself. He definitely is going to notice and he will start thinking about touching you. So this is definitely good. But for a man as well, pay attention to how you sit. Make sure that your body screams confidence. So open your chest, make your chest bigger. We have this. Pop your chest up, all of that.

[37:26] Karin: And if people could see us, we're both opening up our bodies and spreading our legs and our arms and taking up space, right?

[37:34] Magda: But that basically sends the message, I'm confident, look at me. When you're just friends, notice that you don't try to show off physically with your friends. You're very comfortable with friends. So you can even slunge in chair and just be kind of small. And you don't care about having your spine straight. But when you want to impress someone, notice you immediately sit or stand differently. So make sure that's how you sit in front of each other, both men and women. So that's the body. Of course, how you dress makes a difference. So show some skin. What does it mean for a woman? I personally love showing my back. I just really like it. But anything that shows just a bit of skin. Now don't overdo it again. Leave some to imagination, but don't be fully covered. Like turtleneck and like, well, you get to see my hand, and that's it. So don't be afraid to show a little bit of your skin. And same goes for a man. A man can open his collar. That's actually very sexy. Very, very sexy. And you can also pull your sleeves up so that your forearms show. But let there be some skin showing. This is a very subtle, subconscious way of messaging, like implying sexuality, but it works. The brain picks it up. So these are subtle ways that work perfectly.

[38:55] Karin: And I just wanted to interject that a lot of times we do these things without even realizing we're doing them. It's just that we like them and we naturally then do these things.

[39:06] Magda: But not everyone so much.

[39:08] Karin: Yes, but not everyone does. And sometimes we need a little bit of education around it so that we understand that that's how we send those messages.

[39:22] Magda: Yes. And I'd say for me, the best secret to good flirting is to have fun. People just make flirting so serious. I'm just like, forget about any end goals. Just have fun with the person. So for me to sit there and play with my body, play with my hero, touch my wrist a little bit, what I'm really doing is I'm playing with myself. I'm enjoying this. I could be sitting at a table by myself and I would still enjoy doing this. So I'm having fun with myself. That's why it works as a flirting technique. But if you feel very uncomfortable with your own body and your own feelings, like your own pleasure and sensations, you won't be able to do it. So your kind of homework is to be home and even to anyone listening. Now, if you're in a private space, just play with your forearm. Men and women, like, touch your, you know, scratch your head, play with your hurt, touch your body. And notice that this is actually nice and it's not overly sexual. It can be very subtle, very natural, but it really works. It makes a difference.

[40:27] Karin: Yeah, you're transmitting something for sure.

[40:30] Magda: Yes. So these two things, like showing a bit of skin, touching your body, playing with your body. I think it's really good. And then, honestly, I'll say this is a bit more traditional. I am personally traditional, but for a man, I'd say pay. When you go out on a date, just pay. Unless you're going for, like, really fancy restaurants. But if you like her, then take her for coffee so that it's not an issue that you're paying, it's just a few dollars. But show an element of providing for her so that you are establishing a dynamic that you're the provider, you're the leader, and she is the receiver. And honestly, this can be a small gesture if you open the door for her to enter a taxi, something like that, drive her home to make sure that she's safe. Those little, little things here is why you want to do it, because if you don't do them, likely you're going to get friend zone. Now, there are some women who don't like it, but I say this still. The relationships that work the best are the ones where we have this polarity of masculine feminine energies, where a man still gets to feel like I'm a man because I can help her and assist her, and a man in exchange needs to be appreciated for that. So that dynamic still seems to work the best. So if it was a woman and she thinks that it's disrespectful for you to open the door or pay for her coffee, I'd say, yeah, she has some things to look at because how can this be disrespectful? You're just doing a little gesture for her. Like, if my friend wants to pay for my coffee, I don't get offended. I don't think you don't like me anymore because you just offered to pay for my coffee. Oh my God, the friendship is over. I'm like, oh, wow, thank you so much. Next time I'm going to get you a coffee. Right? We appreciate those little gestures. So I'd say for any man who's afraid here, it's much better for you to upset a woman who would feel offended by you getting her a coffee than upsetting a woman who wants you to get her a coffee. I'd say do a few little gestures because for many women, if you don't do it, you end up friend zone right away. Because women still, many, many women still want this. A bit more traditional gentleman who does these little things. You wanted to say something before.

[43:01] Karin: I think that that's where so much confusion has come in in recent years with dating is men don't know, am I supposed to hold the door?

[43:12] Magda: Should I pay?

[43:14] Karin: And I think that there's a lot of confusion, but I think that it's probably safest to go ahead and do those things. And if you had a few dates, you can also talk about it. How does that make you feel, especially when it comes to splitting the check? Because I have no problem with people deciding, especially on a first date, to split the check, if that's what both of them are comfortable with. But I also think it's fine if both of them would rather the man take the lead in that way.

[43:45] Magda: So something that I personally recommend that a man can say, especially if you're a man who likes providing. Here's the sentence that I think is just brilliant. Let's say you're out for coffee, you're getting this coffee, and you can say this. I know you can get this coffee yourself, but it would be my pleasure to get it for you.

[44:08] Karin: So nice.

[44:08] Magda: So what you're saying is that you are acknowledging that she can do it, but you say, I'm doing it for myself. So it's not because I want to disrespect you, because I think you can. No, it would be my pleasure. It would bring me pleasure to get you coffee, period. And then if she has an issue with that, then run away.

[44:28] Karin: Oh, I love that. I think that's really respectful. Yeah, maybe that's it. It just feels very respectful and kind.

[44:38] Magda: I'm thinking, what else with the tips? So we had, okay, show some skin. Touch your body. I would say, yeah, for a man, provide the little things, but also for a woman, make sure that you receive. So polarity has to happen on both. You know, I'm from eastern Europe. We're kind of more traditional in that aspect. So I definitely love when a man offers to pay, does the little things, but I always make it a point to appreciate it. So I never take it for granted. I never look at it as, like, you have to do it because you're a man. Absolutely not. And it's not okay. And I always tell men, when you pay for a woman, when you provide, watch her reaction, because you also don't want to be used by a woman. And there are many women just, like, just wanting to use a man for money. So in a way, protect yourself. So watch how she reacts. And so here is the advice for a woman. If you don't want to get friend zoned, make sure that you receive his gift with appreciation, because that is a lot of the sexual polarity. It's about that. So if you think of it at the level of sex a man is giving, like physically, he is the one entering a woman and thrusting. And also he gives his semen a woman receives. So this is the sexual polarity. So that's why when we play it out in daily situations, it can stimulate our sexuality because it's very similar. But then a woman needs to receive it instead. If he gets me a coffee and I say like, oh, no, let me get it, then I'm deflecting his gift. So it's basically saying, I want to penetrate you. And I'm saying, no, I will penetrate you. Not sexy. So as a woman, also, if you want to make sure you're perceived in the sexual way as well, make sure you receive him. If he chooses to do it, he wants to do it. Trust me. Right? He wants to do it, especially the first few dates. So just receive it. Be grateful.

[46:38] Karin: So interesting. If there's one thing that you'd like people listening to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be? What would that key thing be?

[46:49] Magda: Okay, I'm going to add a little metaphor first. I know it's not a sexy metaphor, but I think it really illustrates the point. The way we look at sexuality is imagine you have a house, and there is this one room that maybe at the beginning you were entering a bit more often than now, but now you spend most of your time in your living room, maybe the kitchen, and sometimes you visit this room, but it's like a separate room, and life happens somewhere else in the house. That's how we look at sex and sexuality. We think it's just like this separate compartment in our life. Instead, what sexuality truly is. It's the floor of the whole house, because it's the foundation. This is why we got to expand the definition of sexuality and go beyond sex. But how would you live your life if your sexuality was the foundation of everything? You feeling alive? You feeling that I'm a sexual being? If that was the foundation in everything you do? Because that's, again, what's missing in dating these days. That's why people end up being friend zone. What if you just started bringing this energy in? And remember, bringing this energy in doesn't mean that you are having sex with people. That's not that you can easily bring this energy into your workplace as well. It's about having a bit more fun, allowing this energy to flow through you. And when the sexual energy flows through you, you're actually having more fun in life. So my main intention with all the clients and what I want to leave you guys with is just allow your sexuality to be a constant part of your life. Don't treat it like a room that you sometimes enter and then the door is closed. Let it enter your life. No matter what you do, you're a sexual being. You come from sexuality. That's how we survive. Sexual energy is the creative force. It's life itself. Sexuality is what literally gives life. So as long as you're alive, you're made of this energy. So start tapping into it, feeling it, and using it.

[49:02] Karin: I love that. And, yeah, I love that you said how sexuality is this creative force, and it is such a life force. So I appreciate that. Thank you. So what role does love play in the work that you do?

[49:23] Magda: Well, everything I do is to help people feel more loved. That's about my clients. And my friend once, he said that I have the best job in the world because I help people fall in love with themselves. And I love that. It's not my quote, but I so want to steal it. It's beautiful. Yeah. So it's literally the core. But I'll add something else. I personally get so much love from that work. Of course, I love what I do. I'm pretty sure you can relate to this. So I loving what you do, but because I talk about love with my clients, I get to have incredible intimacy with my clients because we talk about deep things. My clients are not just any clients. The relationships we form, they're so deep. People just open their heart. They're open their soul to me. Especially if I work with a couple, they invite me into their sacred container. Gosh, this is so humbling. So there's so much love and intimacy in my work in all of these different aspects. I love it. Like, I am surrounded by love because of the work that I do. And I don't know. I honestly do think I'm the luckiest person in the world.

[50:39] Karin: Yeah, I share that. I share that. And I do feel like it's such an honor when people do share this, such a personal, intimate part of their lives with me. So I agree. Yeah. So how can people learn more about you and about working with you?

[50:57] Magda: So you can search online on any platform you're at. Search for Magda K. It's K-A-Y. So you can find my website, magdak.com, where you can read more about various services that I offer. I have a lot of courses, online courses. I have the school of intimacy, which is an online academy to really become a master of love and sex. I have a book is for women called no more faking it. But then I am very, very active on YouTube. I have a pretty beautiful big channel with weekly videos and Instagram. I'm very active on Instagram. So I would love to connect with you guys there as well. So I think these will be the main two channels. If you want to get a lot of free content, then I would say YouTube and Instagram. That would be the best place to connect with me.

[51:46] Karin: Great. And I'll put all of that in the show notes as well.

[51:50] Magda: Thank you.

[51:50] Karin: Yes, Magda, thank you so much for joining me. This has really been a joy. I've enjoyed this so much.

[51:56] Magda: Oh, me too. So, so much.

 

Outro:

[51:59] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show and think others would enjoy it, I'd really appreciate it if you left me a review. You can also sign up for my weekly newsletter where you'll get tips about relationships and personal growth by going to my website, drcalde.com. That's drcalde.com. I make it easy to sign up and easy to cancel at any time. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

 

The transition from parenthood to the empty nest can be a challenging one for many reasons. While some might revel in their new-found freedom, for many others it can send them into a tailspin as they grieve their shifting roles and loss of purpose. It's also a time when many couples divorce. Add menopause into the mix and it can feel overwhelming. This transition can, however, be an opportunity if you want it to be. Take a listen for my recommendations. 

Karin's website and Instagram:

https://drcalde.com

https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

Hello everybody. Today I'm going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects, the empty nest. Now, there's something in this episode for anyone who is a parent, whether or not your kids have left, it's ideally for those of you who have a partner and your kids are about to leave in the next few years or so. But if your kids have already taken flight and you're struggling, there's good information here for you. And while I'm going to be talking about couples and their relationships, there are lots of takeaways here for the single parent as well. Finally, while this is addressing those who are about to embark on this life transition, this is good for parents of young kids, too, because the patterns that I see with midlife couples and those who are about to experience the empty nest are often established years beforehand.

 

So I'm working with couples on this, and I tell you, there is so much you can do around this if you're both willing and committed to the process. And it can be a lot of fun. And it can be a really joyous time for couples as they rediscover one another, have more time to do things they never had time for before, like travel, go to concerts, start new hobbies, go back to school, volunteer, make a career shift. Now, this is not to guilt you if you don't have this experience of joy, because the Reality is that it can be a really hard time for one or both of you. It can be both of these things at the same time. It can be difficult and it can be joyous. It's a time when you say goodbye not only to your only child or your youngest child, but you also might experience a loss of purpose when they leave. So it can be really hard. And I'm going to address that issue when I give you recommendations toward the end of the episode.

 

Now, a lot of couples split up during this time, so I want to address that and address the reasons why this can happen. Now. There are many more reasons that I'm going to offer. These are just some of the things that I see with couples. One, there's a growing distance. You feel like roommates. This is really common. You just get really involved in other parts of your life and you just think your partner is going to be there or that's not your current priority and they can wait. Another reason is that there was something that happened or maybe a series of things that happened that caused you to feel really hurt and decided, and you decided to check out of this relationship, but you stayed for the kids. And then a third thing that I see is that you've just completely grown in different directions and your lives just no longer converge. And it is okay for couples to decide that they want a divorce, that they don't want to do this anymore. That's okay. And everyone needs to make their own choices around that. But for those of you who really want to try to make this work, there's lots that you can do.

 

Something I see with some couples is that they put their relationship aside for the sake of their kids. So that was that number one reason that I see that people split up. It's understandable that they do this. You love your kids, you have limited time with them. You want to be the best parent you can be, and this is your life too. You don't have to sacrifice your life for your kids. You can be good parents and look after your relationship with your partner. It's also important to recognize that when you make your relationship with your partner a priority, you're doing something good for your kids too. They want you to stay together. I believe it's also good for them to see that your life doesn't end once you have kids. You can still have friends, hobbies, a career, time for fun and relaxation, time for your relationship with your partner so that they don't view getting married or having kids as a time when they have to end the other parts of their lives. Now, you might be the parent who never wants to leave your child or teen to go on a date or a vacation with your spouse or partner, but that sends a subtle message that you don't trust that your child will be okay without you. That can add to their anxiety about doing things on their own and to an unhealthy sense of dependence on you. And I think you want your kids to grow up and have healthy, happy lives where they can be independent and fully engaged in life and in the opportunities that it presents to them. And believe it or not, investing in your relationship with your partner has a strong influence on that outcome. So, just to summarize all that, your kids seeing you invest in a relationship with your partner benefits them in different ways, including, it gives them a sense of stability, it models what a healthy relationship looks like, and it gives them confidence in themselves.

 

Okay, now I want to talk about something I feel really passionate about and that I bring up with most of the women in my life, whether they're friends or clients, and it's something that tends to coincide with that time when you're transitioning to an empty nest. Now, most people who become empty nesters are typically mid forty s, to mid 50s or better. And that is precisely the time when women, on average, start perimenopause and menopause, with the average age of menopause being 51. So that's menopause is defined as going one year without your period. And amongst women, suicide rates are highest for those between the ages of 45 and 64. And I'm not saying that this is because of menopause or because of becoming empty nesters or even because of relationship issues. I don't know that we have a good enough data to point to causation. I do think that menopause has a lot to do with that. But again, I can't say that for sure. But all of those things happening at approximately the same time can be really challenging, and they can certainly feed into each other. Some of the common symptoms of menopause include, and this is an abbreviated list, night sweats and hot flashes, which interrupt sleep. And of course, sleep is foundational for feeling good, being able to focus, and a lot more. So, this is big. There can be pain with sex, which might add to relationship stress, but also decreases your ability to feel pleasure, unexpected weight gain, which can contribute to body image issues, headaches, joint pain, brain fog, forgetfulness, mood changes, and an increased risk for heart disease, osteoporosis, and a lot more. And the thing is, there's something fairly easy that can make this all better. If it doesn't make your symptoms go away, it can at least reduce your symptoms, and that is hormone replacement therapy, or HRT. Now, if you're scared to go on it because breast cancer runs in your family, please go see a menopause specialist who is up on the latest research and can give you guidance. There are many, many doctors who are uninformed about this subject, and it puts women's lives at risk. They just don't have the training and they haven't kept up on the research. The current research is showing that estrogen does not cause breast cancer. There are a lot of studies that support that. And that original study that came out, I think it was in 2002, there are lots of problems with it. I just had a client that I work with who has worked in the medical field for all her life, and she saw a menopause specialist just last week and was so grateful for the experience because they talked about things that no other doctor has ever discussed with her before and she got on hormone replacement therapy. The sooner you do this, the better off you'll be, the lower risk you'll be for all kinds of diseases, and of course it'll improve your mood. But once you hit a certain age, HRT might not be the best option for you. So look into it now. If your current doctor's first line of defense is antidepressants, ask them, why not HRT first. I'm not a medical doctor, and I know there are some women for whom HRT is not recommended. So absolutely go see a specialist. But from what I'm learning, most women do well with it. So go online to the menopause society and they have a directory you can use to find someone who has specialized training in this area. Getting effective treatment during this time will likely make becoming an empty nester easier. It will also likely benefit your relationship with your partner, and it's not hyperbole to say that it just might save your life.

 

I now want to talk about finding your purpose during this time. Your role as a parent is only partially who you are. You have many other roles, and more importantly, you are bigger than the roles that you take on. You are certainly bigger than your role as a parent. Roles shift. That's inevitable. But you stay you. So who are you? This might be your task during this time in your life, and you can absolutely do it. And if you struggle with it, I recommend that you get some support. But I will give you some ideas for steps you can take in a moment here. But this is, like I said, often a big part of this transition for people and why it can be so very hard, but it is not something that you can't handle. It absolutely is. Now, I want to give you some action steps.

 

One, allow yourself to grieve. If you ignore your feelings or try to push them down, they'll just pop up in other places and they'll be out of your control. Acknowledge your very normal feelings. You are human and you're not exempt from emotions. Take comfort in the fact that you're not alone in your grief. There are lots of other people going through similar experiences and know this is part of what connects you with all the other empty nesters and all the other people going through hard things. If you're afraid that if you start crying or grieving that you won't be able to come out of it, that you'll cry forever, I want to reassure you that that's not the way it works. Emotions are like a wave. They build crest and fall off. But if you find it overwhelming and get stuck in your grief, get some support because it's available and it can really help. Also related this to this is do not put your grief onto your kids. It's not their job to take care of you emotionally. It's okay to let them know that you're going to miss them and you're sad. That's good for them to hear and to see. But it's not okay to tell them that you don't know how you're going to live without them and to tell them that they need to call you every day. And that is just a lot to put on a kid who is also going through a lot. This is a big transition for them too, so don't make it about you. When you're with your child, it's your job to be their parent and be their support system. And you will be in a much better position to support them if you take care of your own emotional needs and use other sources of support in your life.

 

Okay, so on to couples. Spend time together daily. At least ten minutes of facetime at least. And this can be doing anything, but hopefully not when you're distracted doing anything else. Really put your time and attention on your partner. If you're not sure what to do during that time, have it be a time when you ask about their day and just really work on your listening skills. Really be present. The next step or the next tip is also around relationships and can help you during that time together. And that is to get curious about one another. You probably don't know your partner as well as you think you do, even though you've probably been with them for several years, even decades. A lot has happened since you first got together and fell in love. So get curious about one another again. Ask each other questions. Ask each other about those stories that you've heard before, but ask them a different question about it so that you can learn something new. Next step, rediscover one another in the bedroom. Now this is a big topic, so I'm not going to go into detail today, but you can always listen to episode number 43 with Alexandra Stockwell. But it does start with curiosity.

 

Okay, the next step is to get in front of this as much as possible. Don't wait until your child is out the door before you start paying attention to your relationship with your partner and your relationship with yourself. Do this now. Don't wait for your child to leave and then realize that you're in crisis, because it'll be much harder that way. And if you're in a relationship, have a conversation with your partner about how you're feeling and how you care about your relationship so that you want to take steps to make sure you can weather the coming life transition. So I'd recommend you do that.

 

Okay. On to finding you new purpose. What moves you forward and gets you out of bed every day? It might have been your kids up until this point, and that's changing. But it starts with identifying your values, which shift over time. So it's good to revisit those periodically, especially when you're in transition or you've experienced a significant shift in your life. Values are your anchors. They're who you are at your core. And they can guide these next steps, which are to identify something new that you want to do. Focus on your friendships. Take guitar lessons. Take a pottery class. Start a community garden. Start meditating. Start a book club. The possibilities are endless, but line them up with your values so that it feels good to you. It feels in line with you and authentic. Ask yourself, what would light you up? Perhaps there's something you've always wanted to do but never gave yourself permission to. Even speak out loud. And write these down. Set some goals for yourself. Have something you can look forward to. Okay?

 

And then my last recommendation is to create a vision for what you want your life to look like, whether you're on your own or you have a partner. And if you do have a partner, I would recommend you do this in two ways. You do it on your own, and then you do it with your partner. So what do you want your life to look like in ten years? Where are you living? What are you doing? What are you feeling with your financial situation? All those things. And I do have an exercise for this, so let me know if you're interested in that.

 

You have spent over four, five decades building your life. If you haven't started really enjoying it and all that you've built now is the time. Change is inevitable. Everything is always changing. And for you, coming to accept that, inevitability might really help, but it's time to enjoy all the fruits of your labor. And yes, you deserve it. And this reminds me of this book that I recently read. You might have heard of it. It's by Pema Chodron, and she's a well known American Tibetan-Buddhist, and she's written several beautiful books packed with wisdom. So a book I just finished reading is, I think, her most popular one. It's called when things fall apart. And I couldn't find the quote that I was thinking about around this, but it's essentially, it's this thing that Buddhists are always trying to get you to wake up to, and that is that your life is now. So don't wait until tomorrow to make that change. Don't wait until tomorrow to pay attention to your partner and make things better. This is your life now. And then finally, I want to leave you with a quote also from Pema Chodron's When things fall apart. And I think it's just really a great one to think about. She says, I used to have a sign pinned up on my wall that read, only to the extent that we expose ourselves over and over to annihilation can that which is indestructible be found in us. It was all about letting go of everything. All right, everybody, thanks for being here, and I'll see you next time.

 

Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you like the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today, because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

Jason Lange is a men's embodiment coach, group facilitator, and evolutionary guide. He helps men drop in and wake up to deeper clarity in their life's purpose and relationships. He believes every man should be in a men's group for the growth and support opportunities they provide.

Jason is a certified “No More Mr. Nice Guy” coach, and has trained and studied with leaders such as John Wineland, Dr. Robert Glover, Jun Po Roshi, Tripp Lanier, and Ken Wilber.

 

Men's Groups to checkout:

Jason Lange’s groups

The Mankind Project

No More Mr. Nice Guy

Evryman

 

Learn more about Jason:

Website: evolutionary.men

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/evolutionarymen/

 

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

[00:49] Karin: It is Saturday night and I have been burning the midnight oil this week as I work through this new training program that I'm doing and get this episode out to you by Tuesday because I'm so excited to share it with you all. So in this past year, I've put a lot of time and energy into learning more about men and working with them. I want them to feel respected, heard, and seen, just like the women that I see when they meet with me. I'm sensitive to the reality that most therapists and relationship coaches are women and that can make men feel like they're at a disadvantage or even ganged up upon during sessions. And sometimes they are because many therapists don't really understand the male experience. So that's something that I've been working on. Also, when it comes to most of the couples that come to me, the men haven't done a lot of their own work, and this might be their first time when they're really looking at their emotions and expanding their self awareness. And the women in my practice have done at least some of this work, even though they still have work to do, too. So men often are playing catch up, which can add to their feelings of being the problem. But it's usually both parties that need to work on the relationship. It's not generally just the man that is the source of the problem. What we're going to talk about today can help men tremendously. Not only those who are doing couples work in therapy or coaching, but also they can help men in all areas of their lives and can certainly help them improve their marriages and their relationships. That might be a bold statement, but I really believe it. So my guest today is Jason Lang, but I'm going to let him tell you more about himself and the work he does because this episode is a little bit long, but it's definitely one to share with other men and with those who are in a romantic relationship with a man. So thanks for being here. And here we go.

Episode:

Karin: Welcome, Jason.

[03:06] Jason: So excited to be here.

[03:08] Karin: Yeah, it's really great to have you. So tell us where you are in the world.

[03:12] Jason: Yeah, so right now I'm located in Los Angeles, California.

[03:17] Karin: And you actually have some rain.

[03:20] Jason: Yeah, we've had yesterday, actually rained quite hard, which was super nice. Just nice to have those in days.

[03:26] Karin: Yeah. Now, have you always lived there?

[03:29] Jason: No, I've been out here about 14 years now. I lived in northern California for a while, Colorado for a while, and then I grew up outside Chicago, so I've kind of bounced around a little bit.

[03:42] Karin: Yeah. What keeps you in LA?

[03:44] Jason: I certainly love the weather. It's just easy after having grown up in the midwest and the culture, just an awesome culture here. So much diversity, so many great people just gotten immersed.

[03:58] Karin: Great, great. So tell us what you.

[04:02] Jason: So, you know, kind of took some wines on the way here. But these days I'm primarily an embodiment coach for men that also facilitates specifically men's groups. And I help men in their growth and their journey in all the ways that I needed help, unsurprisingly. And that having gotten through not of all, but certainly some major issues in my life, I feel really lucky to be able to give back now. And it's kind of what I was doing for myself and just enjoyed putting all my attention on. And then I kind of shifted gears and. Okay, well, I could also help other people doing that. So I'm one of the lucky people that how I sustain myself and my passion are aligned.

[04:48] Karin: Yeah, that's wonderful. It does feel good to be able to do this work and do it from the heart, right?

[04:54] Jason: Absolutely. Yeah.

[04:56] Karin: So you said a little bit about how you got here. Is there anything more you want to say about that path and why specifically you run men's groups?

[05:06] Jason: Yeah, I mean, I think I have a similar story to maybe lots of different men in that, and I work with guys on this now, but that phrase, like I had a pretty good childhood, is always points, oftentimes to some things underneath. And for me, I grew up in kind of lower middle class white man in the United States of America in the 80s. So had a lot of privilege and continued to have a lot of privilege. And my basic needs were met in terms, know, housing, food, all that kind of stuff. But my inner world was what was pretty neglected in terms of my family. Did not really have much emotional presence with each other, physical presence as well. There wasn't a lot of touch in my household, which I didn't know till I got older and kind of uncovered some things. And it was like, oh, wow, there's like massive gaps there for me. And my journey really started because as I went through puberty and kind of my sexuality came online, I found I was just deeply uncomfortable in my body and got very anxious when it came to thinking about talking to women and didn't know what was going on. And it caused me a lot of pain and a lot of loneliness. That really kind of kicked off my personal growth journey in a lot of ways. Like, what's going on here? Why is this so easy for, so to speak, so easy for other people, but not for me? And that kind of kicked me off on a journey that took me first more into kind of philosophy and meditation. But then in my twenty s, I was lucky enough. I moved to Boulder, Colorado, which is kind of a nexus of a lot of personal growth and spirituality. And it was there I went to therapy for the first time. I got exposed to my first men's group, and this whole idea of kind of actually doing inner work came online for me. And I consider myself so lucky. A couple of key relationships that formed there really changed the trajectory of my life. Probably most importantly was being in a men's group, getting in a men's group with guys, a lot of whom were actually a little older and more mature than me in different ways, that gave me access to something I just hadn't had before. My dad, bless his heart, he did a lot for our family, but he wasn't really able to provide me any kind of masculine guidance in my life. So a lot of my life was just like, feeling frozen in my body, afraid of what to do next. Like, I don't know, do I do this? Do I do? That created a lot of anxiety. And so landing in a place where I was around men who were just relaxed in their bodies, very present, and were curious about me and how to support, really tipped the needle for me towards my transformation finally taking root and really sustaining itself.

[07:59] Karin: Wonderful. I love hearing all of that. Thank you for sharing. You said something about there wasn't a lot of touch in your home growing up. And you also mentioned when you first introduced what you do is that you're an embodiment coach. So can you tell me a little bit about what those two things have to do with one another? Because I think there might be a lot of people that don't really know what an embodiment coach is.

[08:27] Jason: Totally. Yeah, they're absolutely obviously related in my own journey, which is now why I'm so passionate about them. But like I said, part of what started to happen for me in my teens and well into my 20s, honestly, was my body would get really uncomfortable with touch. I actually was pretty lucky in high school in that I was kind of an academic nerd, super into computers and stuff. But I found a little cohort of guys that I was really close with. So I had, like, five guys. I've always kind of had my group of men, which is something I've been so lucky, but I was never one of those wrestle kind of horse around guys with other men. I felt really uncomfortable when it came to touch around women or just hugging in general. And it was because my nervous system just was not conditioned for it. It was not something it had received. And so when I would receive it, it would actually kind of put me in a little bit of a threat state. I'd be like, what is this? What is this? I don't feel safe. So I learned to cope by withdrawing into my head, like so many men, and then learning to kind of try to regulate myself. For me, it was primarily porn. Masturbation and food were, like, the ways I tried to co regulate my nervous system, because I had never received any touch to co regulate me growing up. So that was how I adapted to the system.

[09:49] Karin: And which is true for so many men, right?

[09:52] Jason: So many men. And, yeah, I mean, a big thing. I tend to work with a lot of men, I think, for a lot of humans these days, but men in particular is we're not taught how to be in our bodies. We're not taught what our emotions are. We're not generally encouraged to feel them. So we have all this stuff inside of us, and we don't know what to do with it. This is the thing I see with a lot of they don't know what to do. Like, where do I put my feelings? What do I do with my feelings? So we try to discharge them or numb out to them, right through substances, through external stuff, through dissociation, is something I would often do, is just kind of withdrawing into my head. So embodiment, as I coach men now, is really just the practice of coming into direct contact with the sensations in our bodies, including, at least in my kind of belief system, emotions generally start as physical sensations in our bodies. So another reason a lot of men don't want to be in our bodies, because that's where we have to feel grief or anger or loneliness. So we eject out as fast as we can. Oftentimes but embodiment is the process of, okay, can I come into contact with all that in a very direct way? And I support men in doing that because I needed a lot of help doing it myself in terms of rewiring my nervous system. And that impacted my intimate relationships and it's also impacted my relationships with other men. Right. I think a lot of men are, in my experience, very touch deprived, particularly these days with post Covid remote work and just kind of the dissolution of so many things. There were guys I was working with, with COVID during COVID that if they weren't on a Zoom call with me, they had no social connection during that time because of the way they were coders or stuff like that. And that's, I think, pretty common, let alone getting active touch, which as you know, does so much to regulate our nervous system. I also try to help men learn, hey, you can get some of your touch needs met from other men too.

[12:00] Karin: Yeah. And then there's of course, that fear of, well, they're going to think I'm gay. And so that belief has come up and grown over the past, I don't know, century or so where you can't really totally have those relationships or touch because then that's bad. That's also associated. Gay is associated with bad for so many hetero men as well.

[12:23] Jason: Yeah, that ties right into this idea of the man box. Right. That has kind of formed, which is the set of do's and don'ts that men are expected to be in, that are often enforced by other men. Like a man is someone who, x, y or z doesn't show weakness, doesn't show vulnerability, doesn't touch other men. Here in the States, I think it's particularly hard for us men because we're fed this, what I kind of call this, excuse my language, but the bullshit narrative of kind of the rugged individualist cowboy, pick yourself up by the strappy your boots, the lone wolf. He's tough, he never shows any weakness. And it's just not sustainable. The thing about those guys is often they're addicted to all kinds of substances. They end their lives with heart disease. This stuff has such an impact on men and fighting against that man box, which is that. Yeah, us men, we're allowed to have emotions. It's okay to not always be strong. It's okay to touch other men and receive that kind of platonic love is such a transformation. And as I often say to guys now, like, well, tell me, who do you think is more afraid? The man who feels his feelings or the man who's afraid to feel his feelings, and that always kind of, like, kicks them up. It's like, oh, that tough guy. He actually isn't willing to go there, so he's afraid to go there. Whereas, as we learn in the culture, I like to try to create with men, it's like, yeah, the brave thing is always just to go into the feeling in a responsible way.

[13:53] Karin: Yeah. And then how does that help men to be able to be with their feelings for one?

[14:02] Jason: I think what I found is the space, particularly in a men's group. I mean, I do one on one work with guys, but I really come alive. And I love the power of a group because there's just something so potent there of safety that we can create. And specifically, it becomes a place where we're allowed to be messy and not have it sorted out and be reactive, even in ways we're sometimes not allowed to, where we can kind of get in touch with what are our wants, what are our needs, what are our hurts. And other men can hold space for us in that. And then what I found is, as we get in touch with that inside the group, it makes it a lot easier to bring it back outside the group in very direct ways. Like, yeah, I'm hurting because I'm feeling this, or sometimes guys don't even know that. And what I've also seen is, like I said, I got lucky in that I got to experience men who were modeling this. It's one of the fastest tools I've seen is when men see other men stepping bravely into their truth, their authenticity, their vulnerability, their emotions. It's like a quick download of, oh, that's what it looks like to be in healthy anger, right? Not overreactive or destructive, but not collapsed. That's what it looks like and feels like. Or, wow, that man is in tears right now, and he feels so strong to me. Right. I have no doubt that's an incredibly strong man. Again, there's that kind of felt in the body sense, that transmission that can happen in the group very fast. And then the other key thing I found is, I sometimes call it the vortex, particularly in groups, is every time one man steps into that space and kind of goes for it, of like, I'm going to really go to the place I'm scared to, it kind of makes it easier for the other men to go. And suddenly it's like one man goes deep, then another man's willing to step in, and then that man's work actually reminded another man of something. So he gets all lit up and wants to go in, and the whole group continues to deepen and deepen. And it's been so powerful in my life to experience that and now to also witness other men having that experience.

[16:17] Karin: Wonderful. So great. What kind of men benefit from men's groups?

[16:24] Jason: Yeah, I'm going to argue any man. So part of my mission is every man should be in a men's group. And I've worked with guys and been in groups with guys across the board. And what I mean by this is young guys who have barely entered the adult world, all the way up to mature men that are retiring and winding down their lives everywhere in between. And one of the things I love about these groups, like I said, is as a lot of the kind of social structures that did connect men have evaporated in a lot of ways. It's one of the only places I have actually seen intergenerational contact, like connection. Someone older and someone younger, like, coming together. And they both often have something to offer the other one, the youth, offers some kind of vitality, or just seeing the world in a fresh way. And sometimes the older, more mature guys, a little bit of wisdom of like, yeah, man, I've been there. And here's what helped me.

[17:22] Karin: I could also just imagine, because there's, I think, a lot of this misunderstanding between generations, too. Like, oh, Gen Z is this and millennials are that and Gen X are that. And being able to get to know people of other generations, I bet, really build some bridges and understanding and compassion.

[17:44] Jason: Yeah, it's been amazing to witness and see that, because I think what it does is it humanizes, right? So suddenly it's, oh, this is a human, not just a label, like all those young kids or those old people. It's, wow, you have your pain and I have my pain, and we're both really trying hard to make this all work, and suddenly there's that feeling of we're on the same team. Yeah, I've seen young guys, old guys, single guys, married guys in particular. I think often fathers, as the research is, it's something like over the age of 30, it's like men really struggle to create new friendships with other men, particularly as they get into long term relationship or become fathers. Some of it's just bandwidth, timing. Some of it's, again, not knowing how to do that. And so I've been in a men's group here of my own in LA since 2015, maybe. And we've met every other week like clockwork, just boom, boom for a while. It was virtual and Covid, then it was in backyards, and then now we're still in backyards. But that has sustained me through a lot. And for me, one way I often talk about this is it's also just super efficient. I'm a father. I run my own business, live in LA, where it's hard to get around and see people. So it would be hard for me to actually see seven of my best male friends every month if it wasn't for this group. But there's just like, we're here no matter what, and it keeps those connections alive in pretty powerful ways. And it gives me somewhere to go and process and be with myself and get feedback from other people, which is also very valuable to my relationship. So then not every single thing is having to be processed between me and my wife. If there's a charge or I didn't show up in some way or different things, my group is a place where I can kind of work some of that and get some feedback, oftentimes in that, oh, there's more for you to look at than you thought about in yourself there, right? Instead of just, it's always my partner's fault or whatever. Men's group is a great place where I get to kind of sort through that in some powerful ways.

[20:01] Karin: So I'm going to be the devil's advocate here and think about the people who are listening, who are thinking. A bunch of guys getting together and crying and feeling sorry for themselves. Is that what's going on? So maybe you can speak to the accountability piece, the growth piece, how this might affect marriages and parenthood, all of that.

[20:24] Jason: People often ask me like, yeah, what do you do in a group? And sometimes they joke, yeah, we get together and cry, and sometimes we do. Sometimes men really do. Right? They just need a place where they can fully collapse. I think that's another thing, is men, because of the man box and patriarchy, we tend to take on these stories of, we have to hold it all together. We have to hold the family together. We have to always be tough, always hold it together. And men very rarely have places where they feel like they can just collapse and be held or be a mess. Right? And I've had this happen multiple times in my life. Snot pouring down my face, men just holding me, like, weeping, because some of the challenges I've been through and that has restored me and actually given me the strength and vitality to then go back and be with the challenges in my life. But it's not always like that. Yeah. Just as important I always say there's two sides to a men's group, and the way I've experienced them and teach them is they're supporting each other when we're under resourced or down. But then there's also holding each other accountable when there's something important in our lives, we want to move forward or improve. Right? And so it's not so much a culture of shame or calling out, but there's this way, particularly in groups, where you get to know each other over time, you learn, what does this man want? What does he really care about in life? What's his deepest yearning? And then you can support a man in getting there by not calling him out, but calling him forward. Right. So I've been in part of some pretty intense groups where men have been called out for leaky containers in their relationship, cheating on partners, staying in jobs they didn't care about, staying in relationships too long they didn't want to be in. You name it. When other men know you and trust you and are like, hey, I see what's happening here, man, and it's not cool. I know you have more than this to offer, so we got to clean this up. And it can cause great change for men when they're held accountable like that. And it's a crazy thing. Not everyone understands, but a lot of men actually secretly yearn for that level of accountability. For someone who doesn't let them get away with shit or be less, there's, like, a real desire, and it's infecting when we're in groups like that where people are like, wow, these guys really, they actually care enough about me to call me out if I'm not actually living up to who they know I am in my heart. And that's a really powerful thing for a lot of men to have that level of trust with other guys.

[23:08] Karin: It seems like it helps you live in integrity.

[23:11] Jason: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Totally. Groups are a great way to get integrity.

[23:17] Karin: Yeah. And when you're in integrity in alignment, this is what I'm. I believe, and so this is what I'm going to do. That's all in alignment. It feels really good and empowering, magnetic.

[23:29] Jason: Often not only to us, but to people around this. They're like, wow, this person is lined up, and I can trust them. Their insides match their outsides. And that's something I think men's group can help, is to bring those two things in alignment. Right. Sometimes we're acting one way in the world, but we're feeling another way inside men's group is a way where we can start to feel that way. And then either those things come into alignment or we have to renegotiate that agreement to be closer to what we actually are, how we are behaving, how we are feeling.

[23:59] Karin: Yeah. So I brought this up when we first talked. It's a phrase that I sometimes hear men say and they know, happy wife, happy life. What do you think about that?

[24:12] Jason: It doesn't work. I've just seen, I've done a lot of work with, I've trained with Dr. Robert Glover, who wrote no more Mr. Nice Guy, which you and I were talking about, I think is kind of, it's the book that wakes up a lot of men, I think, these days, particularly this subset of man who often subscribes to this belief, happy, happy wife, happy life, which is the. My job is just to appease my partner and make sure they're happy at all given times, which there's a noble intent there, right. Like genuine love for a partner and care for them. The problem is, and where it tends to break things out of integrity is when men start doing that at their own expense. So they start putting their partner's needs ahead of their own and they don't set healthy boundaries or they get trampled over, or they don't speak up for themselves, which then often creates actually a lot of resentment or passive aggressiveness that then still shows up in the relationship. Right. So it just doesn't tend to work long term because I've talked to spouses of guys, I've worked with nice guys, and over time, for some partners, when they can feel like my partner is just letting me walk all over them, their respect actually goes down for that partner and then they kind of treat them even worse. Right. And it starts to feed into itself. And so a lot of work I do with nice guys in particular is, yeah, learning to get in touch with our wants, our needs, to be able to set healthy boundaries that aren't aggressive, they aren't pushy, they aren't domineering, but they're respective of what that man needs as well. And long term, that does tend to create more sustainability. Because the other thing is, what I work with guys on is you probably have some thoughts on this, too. The most durable relationships I've seen and that I'm certainly trying to create with my wife are the ones where it's not even always about what makes you happy or me happy. It's what does our relationship need to thrive, which sometimes, some days is not the thing I want to do or not the thing that's going to make me happy. But I can feel, wow, our unit, this thing that kind of lives beyond us, it needs this thing. And that's where I think as men learn to tune into that, they can actually start to bring some leadership back to the relationship often as well.

[26:38] Karin: But it does start with understanding what they need, doesn't it? And that can be so hard for men. Some men, I think, have a really hard time identifying what do I want, what does make me happy, because they've pushed that down for so long. Right?

[26:59] Jason: Totally. And that ties right back into so, like me as someone who is fairly disconnected from my body, those two things are often linked, right? When we're in our bodies, it's often much easier to connect to, oh, that feels right to me, or that's a yes to me, or I want that. When we're not in our bodies, we get stuck in this endless rumination that so, right, men just get stuck up in their heads, overthinking, overanalyzing. Should I do this? Should I do that? And it can be so painful and so draining. So draining. But again, as we get more connected to our bodies, and then if we can get in a safe space, particularly with coaches, therapists like you, counselors, men's groups, where we feel safe to actually explore and get in touch with that need, then it's like, oh, yeah, actually, that's what I want. And then once we're really what I've seen over and over in myself is once I finally connect to the feeling, the action starts to become clear of, oh, yeah, wow, I can't stay in this relationship anymore or I have to switch jobs. Now that I've felt the truth in my body, it's going to be too harmful for me to pretend anymore or to keep playing the part or whatever. So then it's like, well, how do I do this? And integrity. And then again, the group can often support a man and, okay, well, let's figure this out. How do we make sure we navigate whatever transition needs to happen for you or lifestyle change you need to make in as healthy a way as possible?

[28:32] Karin: I love that you mentioned the tendency for men to be in their heads, and I think that it's the case, of course, for a lot of women, too. But we tend to overemphasize rationality and thinking in our culture and it really cuts the head off. We forget that we have a body and that there is so much wisdom there and the way you were describing that also reminded me of intuition. So much of it is tapping into that. That really is a feeling in the body for most people.

[29:10] Jason: And that ties right into what I often do work with men around is a lot of men come to me because they want to be more impactful leaders in their relationship, in their work and their family and their communities. But it's really hard to lead when we're stuck up in our heads, ruminating. And so much of what I would call this next wave of healthy leadership comes from embodiment. The information is actually coming from the senses in our body. And I was blown away doing some research for something, and they were talking about the vagal nerve down the center of the body and how it's a two lane highway, but actually, 80% of the bandwidth of that is the direction body to brain. Only 20% is brain to body, meaning there is so much more information flowing in through our bodies. And when we think about, well, who's going to be a more effective leader? The one who's tapped into all that, their intuition, their body sense, right. In that, okay, what should we do? Or what do I want or what? There it is, right? It's not so much this, like, cognitive thing, it's just kind of this, well, this is what feels right right now. So I'm going to go with it. And it takes work, I think, particularly for a lot of us men that have been kind of trained out of our bodies to start to trust that intuition again and to get comfortable being in there.

[30:34] Karin: The other thing I wanted to say out loud is that when we're in our head so much, and we're maybe ignoring or suppressing, and it's often not conscious, all of this stuff that's going on in our bodies and our emotions, it doesn't mean those things go away. Those emotions are still there, but they end up being out of our control and leaking out, and we might explode because of it, or be irritable or whatever it is. And so we're less in control of.

[31:11] Jason: Ourselves, less in control. And another way I see this massively impacting men, I think, particularly as we age, is it drains our life force, it actually steals our vitality. So, so many men I work with, I'm too tired. I don't feel motivated, like stressed out all the time. So they don't have the energy to be with their kids, they don't have the energy to be present with their partners. These stuck emotions, like, as I've experienced it, and work with guys, anytime we're not feeling emotion, we're holding it in our body. So there's literally musculature that goes with holding, and it becomes so subtle and baked in, we forget. And one of the things that always blows me away when I'm doing my deep emotional processing work and then as I work with men is the amount of space and vitality, often on the other mean. I've been doing this work for a while, Karen, and embarrassed to say, but sometimes I'll still have an experience where I'll finally touch into some grief for something I'd been avoiding. Right. For maybe months.

[32:22] Karin: Sure.

[32:22] Jason: And every time I'm done with it, I'm like, oh, my God, that was so much easier than all the energy I've been putting into not feeling that for the last six months or year or for some guys I work with their entire lives, there's been things that they just have not had the capacity or safety or guidance to be allow themselves to feel. And that has a real heavy cost on our vitality, on our health, on our immunity. These things that I think particularly start to show up as we get into middle age and beyond. One man I do a lot of work with, he's a doctor of chinese medicine, and he started doing some more of this kind of interior work because he saw patients could come and he could stick needles in them. But if it wasn't getting to some of these emotional issues, it wouldn't go away. These issues would just stay chronic with them. So he's like, oh, man, we got to work this in more than one way. And it's a big thing, I think, for men that they often don't realize how much they're holding in their bodies. We often were just disconnected from that. And then we finally get in and it's like, oh, my God, I had no idea that was all in there, or I kind of knew, but I was just really afraid because, man, if I ever felt that I wouldn't know what to do with myself is another thing I often get from guys.

[33:41] Karin: How does this manifest in the bedroom? When men are disconnected from their bodies or they're in their heads or they don't process emotions, how does that show up?

[33:53] Jason: Such a great question. Yeah, I mean, I think it ties right into what I was talking about with leadership, in that I do have a lot of men that I work with. Sexuality is a big part of it. And I think particularly for this kind of subset of men, I work with these nice guys, right? We're often very sweet. I consider myself one very sensitive. Right? Very we care a lot about safety. We're very thoughtful, but oftentimes we're disconnected from our sexuality and our power. Right? Like, our actual. Just the impulses in our body. We're constantly filtering. I can't say that, or I can't do that. And that really shows up in intimate relationships and definitely in sexuality for men of, again, they could be having an intimate moment, but they're actually up in their heads, so they're not in their bodies experiencing pleasure as much as they could. They're not at all attuned to their partners. But as we get more into our bodies, and again, it's easier to be in our bodies when they're open. And there's not, like, a lot of emotional gunk in there, so to speak. So we've done some emotional processing and clearing. Then that kind of sexuality is just like a moment to moment trusting of, oh, I want to do this, or I feel called to do this. And it's much more natural and empowering to men. Like, there's not a technique or something you have to follow, per se, which a lot of men, we want to be given the instruction manual, and then I'll just do it like that every time because that works. Again, then we're following a script. We're up in our heads. We're not actually present in our bodies in the moment when we're present in our bodies, I think, really change physical intimacy and sexuality for men to help men feel just more relaxed, more trusting of themselves, and more able to actually enjoy what their partners are offering them and be really present in that and attuned as well.

[35:49] Karin: Yeah. And what about the nice guy who tends to have sexual compulsions? How does that work, and why does that happen?

[35:58] Jason: Yeah, I think there's a huge variety here, but a lot of times it's a type of addiction, let's say, in terms of there's some. Obviously, every guy is going to be different, but as a generalization, let's just say some nice guys, because they've kind of cut off their sexuality consciously. That's like you said, it leaks out sideways. It's still there. And in some sense, it can become ravenous. Right. Or unskillful, whether that's addiction to porn or escorts or. There's so many different ways I've seen this manifest in men. And, you know, underneath it a lot of times is just a deep yearning for some kind of connection and safety that they've never experienced or don't know how to ask for. Don't feel safe necessarily asking for. So I think a lot of guys, if it gets stuffed, it's going to come out some way. That's, I think, something we've probably learned hopefully as a lesson, as humanity at this point, through all the different ways it's manifested that when we try to deny it, it usually just means it comes out in some pathological form. So we want to healthily embrace, hey, this is a part of me. I have sexual needs, I have sexual desires. And as we learn to honor that, actually, for a lot of guys, I actually work with these nice guys, the shift from my sexuality is bad or dangerous because a lot of nice guys that I work with were raised by women or raised in environments. Feminism was coming online. Me too. And just immersed in the many real stories of how pathological masculine can be very dangerous with its sexuality. And so a lot of nice guys see that firsthand or experience that in some way culturally and are like, well, I don't want to be that guy, right? I'm going to cut myself off from that a lot of times. But then it either comes out as some kind of compulsion, or they feel dead inside, or they never actually get the thing they want. So the shift to, hey, our sexuality as men can be a really positive, sacred, generative thing. It doesn't have to cause destruction, can actually be a really healing, beautiful thing when we embrace it in healthy ways. Consent and containers and all those different things. And the other thing I tell a lot of guys is, I'm like, whoever you're attracted to, I don't know a single person in the world, really, who doesn't want to know their intimate partner is physically attracted to them. We all want to know our partner wants us. A lot of guys, right?

[38:39] Karin: Yeah.

[38:40] Jason: It's like, what? Really? It's like, no, she wants to know you want her, or he wants to know you want him, right? It's okay for you to have that desire. And that's like a big reformatting for guys as they realize, oh, this isn't something I have to be ashamed of. This is something I can embrace. And then as they start to feel better about it, they become more attractive, right. Because they're actually embracing, oftentimes, this part.

[39:01] Karin: Of themselves, such important stuff. Thank you. That's really good for men to hear, but also for women to hear, to understand what's really going on.

[39:10] Jason: And I want to be really clear. It's not to say that there hasn't been a lot of damage done by men, and there is a kind of accountability and responsibility that I think men can step into of wanting to create ever more safe spaces, female partners in particular, to experience their sexuality. Because the other thing I do work with a lot of men on is, unfortunately, for men who are actively dating, it's, like, usually not a matter of if, but when. You will be with some partner who's experienced some kind of sexual trauma or abuse and just be aware of that. And that said, you don't have to feel like that's your fault or your shame. You don't have to carry that shame in yourself. You just have to help your partner feel safe and expressed in her sexuality. And so we want to be doing both things at the same time, taking responsibility for the real experiences a lot of people on this planet have had, and learn that we can celebrate the healthy parts of our sexuality, too.

[40:08] Karin: Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge that men and women are harmed by patriarchy and that system, and there are consequences for everybody. When, let's say, a married man or a man who is in a long term relationship joins a men's group, what are some of the changes that he might expect?

[40:31] Jason: Somewhat depends on what kind of group he's going to join. So there are just, like, we might say, hey, I'm a meditator. It's like, well, what kind? There's so many different kinds of meditation. I just want to acknowledge there's a lot of different kinds of men's groups. But in general, what I find is, for one, like I said, it gives men a place to go where they can be messy with their emotions and not have it all figured out and just feel safe to kind of fall apart. And that I just can't stress enough how big that is. It's like, oh, I have somewhere to bring my emotions now, instead of just numbing out to them in the world, really starts to change men. To know I have a place I can express and bring this stuff that is really transformative. I find that it helps men. It's kind of like how my friend in one of my men's groups one time put it is there's a sunlight effect, there's a sunshine effect of as kind of just like that vortex. As one man starts to make changes in the group, it creates, like, a natural inspiration for other guys to just, like, fuck, I'm ready to do that, too, or make some kind of change. So guys often start to actually stick to things more that they want to be doing to take care of their health or their vitality or their wealth or their relationships. Or whatever that might be. I find that for guys in relationships. I do a lot of work with men around this idea of polarity, right. How do we create erotic friction in relationships? Because the longer you are with someone. The easier it is to just default into. We're best friends. And we're fed this narrative of lifelong love and happily ever after. But the stories always stop when people get together. Which is really when the relationship starts, right? Oh, now we have to work at this. And particularly in longer term relationships. All the hormones, the dopamine cliff, the honeymoon period. Everybody's going to get there. And then on the other side of that, you actually have to learn to practice. And intentionally create that erotic charge with each other in all kinds of different ways. Which includes having a safe, trusting relationship. And actually being able to do certain things with our breath and our posture and how we hold presence. But what I find is being in a men's group. Is one of the most effective ways to increase polarity in a relationship. Polarity being that way, we create erotic tension, for one, it gives guys somewhere to go. That's kind of their own experience. Which in itself. Then they come back and there's like, oh, I was there and you were here. And, hey, there's a little bit of difference. There's what happened? Energy, right?

[43:22] Karin: Yes.

[43:22] Jason: You just feel your partner a little bit more. Guys tend to get more in their bodies. I find when we're just men's groups I lead. Tend to. We actually do embodiment practices. To actually spend some time to get into our bodies each meeting. And so we come back from the meeting more in our bodies. More resourced, more connected, more able. And more available for connection back home with our partners. So increasing that polarity I've seen is really key. A problem I see a lot of nice guys get into these days. And you may have even more stories of this. Is because so many men, it's so easy for us to isolate. And we don't know how to make new friends. We'll get into a long term relationship. And all the cool things we did that we were passionate about. We start to let go of going out to group meetings or running clubs. Or doing these things strictly when we have kids. And suddenly there's actual responsibilities. So all of our energy or attention tends to be at work or in the household, on our family or in our relationship. And so there's not really any space outside of there. The problem with that, then, is particularly in our intimate relationship, if we start to have tension or stress suddenly that one point of connection is our most important connection in our lives, right? Intimate partner, our best friend, our life manager, our cohabitator, our co parent. And so there's a lot riding on that connection. So guys will start to not necessarily express their full truth because they don't want to cause conflict or refrain from certain things. Or as I've been there myself, I feel overwhelmed or depressed or totally lost. And if I'm like, I don't know what to do, and I just kind of bring that to my wife, she's like, oh, whoa, what do you want me to do with that? Do you want me to take care of you?

[45:18] Karin: Which is so often what happens, right?

[45:21] Jason: Yeah. And she doesn't want to be my mother. She wants to be my lover, my partner.

[45:25] Karin: Yes.

[45:27] Jason: What I find is that, guys, we often love analogies. So if you think back to basic engineering, there's a single circuit, which is like, electricity flows through one pathway, and if one part of that breaks, no electricity flows. The old Christmas lights, right? If one light breaks, the whole strand would go out. That's kind of what a lot of nice guys in particular, get stuck in with their intimate relationships. Men's groups, like the parallel circuit, right, where suddenly we have a lot of nodes, so if any one of them isn't working, there's still energy flowing. So I don't have to bring all of my emotional processing or grief or sadness or stress or whatever just to my relationship. There's somewhere else for it to go. And again, I can bring the clarity of that back, and that's something I really see. When guys get into relationships, it changes their partnership, when their partners can feel their man is now being held by other men, meaning, oh, it's not on me alone to help take care of him or make him feel better, like he's got people behind him. And that can be such a relief on a partner's nervous system of like, oh, I feel like I can breathe. And now there's maybe even some space for me to bring forward some of the things I've been hurting or challenged by. And that's like, yeah, it totally changes things for men and really continues to change things for me.

[47:00] Karin: So there's another question I have I think is so important and might be a really big source of motivation for some men doing this. And that is, what impact does this all have on men as dads?

[47:18] Jason: That's such a great question. I got a four year old now, so I've been so blessed in my journey, had a lot of experiences with our child and some challenges when she was born. I'm kind of a men's group junkie, so I have, like, three or four groups, some virtual, some here in town, some meet once a year. But like I said, what I'm really lucky about is in each of them, I have elders who are kind of on the other side of having raised families. And I can't tell you just how relieving it's been sometimes where I've been in a crisis or had a challenge, and I kind of share what's going on. And sometimes it's nothing more than, yeah, wow, I totally remember how hard that was. I remember that phase, and it was just really challenging. And it may just be that way for a few years, and there's just like, oh, I'm not doing anything wrong. There's just like an acknowledgment of what that is or sometimes some actual advice in terms of, yeah, here's what we found to work, or here's what helped my child. That is such an asset for other dads to have that with older men, but also just peers as well, to talk about how's it going, and again, to have someplace to kind of lay our burdens, because for better or worse, a lot of men do take on that. I'm the provider. I got to take care of the family, and then we don't necessarily feel like we have space to not be that men's group is a place where you can do that. The other big thing I found is around the embodiment and the emotional fluidity. A lot of guys want to know, like, how can I make sure not to raise my kids, how I was raised? I don't want to do that. The answer I often give guys is, do your work. The best thing you can do for your kid is to continue your healing work, because what they're going to see in that, what your children are going to see is, while my parents continue to grow, they never stop growing. They know how to ask for help. They make mistakes sometimes. And that is kind of a revolution in some sense in terms of kids being able to see their parents in that process. And then as men get more into our bodies and learn more about that emotional fluidity and how to be present with our own emotions, lo and behold, it's far easier to be present with our children's emotions, right? To not get reactive when they're upset, to not be afraid if they're crying, but to just be present with them. That's mostly what they need from us, right? It's just our attention most of the time. And so what I see is guys do their own emotional work in a men's group. It totally filters back to the family. And I tend to work with a lot of guys around dating and relationships, and some of them will often be men who already have families. And that's the thing. They're like, I never thought this would help my relationship with my kids, but it's so much better. It's like some of the feedback I get over and over again because they're more open, they're more authentic, they're more vulnerable, and they're also just more present. So again, it's a place for us men to go when we're under resourced and to learn the skills so we can be more present in our family life.

[50:25] Karin: Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I have found again and again when I have talked to people about their experiences, those who do the best had at least one parent or caregiver that had done their work. It makes such a profound difference in a child's life.

[50:46] Jason: It really does. Yeah.

[50:47] Karin: So I recommend men's groups to, I think, just about every man that I see, but I'll admit that it's challenging getting them there.

[50:59] Jason: Yeah. Tied into this. Again, not every man has this experience, but some men actually have wounding that comes from relationships with other men. Right. Whether it's a father, a lot of guys I work with are bullying when we are young or just general locker room culture. Right. Is we're taught from a very young age to never show weakness. Never show vulnerability, always be tough and kind of have your shit together. And that gets pretty programmed in deep for men. And so a lot of guys I work with, they come into a group, and at a nervous system level, they often experience other men as a threat. Right. Just being in a room with other men can be threatening. And so there's just talking about that, that, hey, it doesn't have to be that way. The types of relationships we can cultivate in an intentional men's group, they're not going to be the relationships you can have with every man out in the world. I'm not one of those people that's like, you got to practice vulnerability everywhere, all the time because not everybody has the capacity to actually be present for that or receive our vulnerability. Men's group is a safe place where we get to start to practice that and build that trust with certain people. So for those guys, I would just say, like, I've done a lot of things in my journey. I've done inner healing work, outer healing work, psychedelics, meditation, like therapies. And they've all helped. But the thing that made them stick, meaning those help bring up the transformations, but made it stick for me, was being in with a group of guys who journeyed on with me through my life, through the ups and downs, through having my child, through getting married, through all the intensities I've been through. And that relationship has reformatted things for me. And again, tying it back to leadership. Another thing I've really been experiencing a lot lately is a lot of guys will come in not trusting the masculine in other men because their experiences growing up or whatever, and that has an impact. What I found is then it's really hard for us to trust that inside of ourselves. So if we don't trust the masculine out there, that's where guys will doubt it in ourselves or not feel safe with it. And so as we get into a group where we can trust, wow, these guys are legit. They got me. They care about me. They're not using me or trying to threaten me or trying to win over me. They just want me to have the best life I can have. They start to trust that, and then we start to trust that more in ourselves. So if there's a man listening who's considering this, I know it's hard to get over that hump and kind of walk into a room of strangers, but it's something that can change your life. And for some men, I will argue, actually save your life. Like, the stats on what loneliness and isolation do to men in particular are overwhelming. Like, it's as dangerous as being obese, smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, not having that safety and that connection is so detrimental to your health that, if nothing else, I don't have a research study on this, but I'm pretty sure someone could work on one pretty easily. That being part of a group, you will live longer. Actually, I think a book just came out, join or die. That was talking about clubs. The fact that if somebody is part of a club, their life expectancy goes up.

[54:32] Karin: I believe it.

[54:33] Jason: Any kind of club. So a men's group is just one version of that that, I think allows a certain type of depth and healing that a lot of men need these days. As I say, obviously, I can't promise anything to specific men, but what I have seen is men come out feeling more empowered in themselves, more embodied, less afraid of their emotions, more connected, less alone. People start to trust them more, their relationships get better. And for a lot of men, when people feel them more present and they trust them more, they'll make more money.

[55:08] Karin: Yeah, right.

[55:10] Jason: They will do better in their careers, and people will want to give them more responsibility in money. Like, guys tend to do better in their careers as they get more in their bodies, as they get more connected to themselves and to others. It blows me away. But I keep seeing this evidence coming at me with guys I've worked with.

[55:28] Karin: And that makes sense to me, because when you make improvements to one area of your life that bleeds into other areas of your life, and you just grow so much. So, yeah, I believe that. Absolutely. And if I wasn't tethered to my computer, I would stand on my chair and applaud all of that. When I talk to my clients about men's groups, I hold back a little bit because there's a part of me that says, but this could change your life. This could be so profound for you. And I don't want to overstate it because I don't want to know what their experience is going to be, but it has that potential.

[56:05] Jason: It so does. And how I have been kind of phrasing it these days is it doesn't make life easier, but it definitely makes it better. All the stress of life is still going to come at you, and what a good group can do is help give you the resource to meet that, and it's just a lot easier. And frankly, it's a lot more fun. It brings a lot more play and vitality and connection in my life. When I'm in these groups, some of the most outside of my family, those are the places I want to be in those intentional groups. Because every time I leave a men's group, I feel in my body, that was time well spent. There's never a doubt, should I been doing something else? Or it's like, no, that was time well spent. That serves me, my family, my clients, everything, really.

[56:56] Karin: So an important question I have is, how does one go about finding a group? Because I know that there are some groups out there that there might be some groups that are really out there to uphold the patriarchy and might not be as healthy.

[57:12] Jason: 100%. Totally. Yeah. This is such a great question, and I wish I had a very great, concrete answer, other than you got to experiment to some extent, I think it's okay to try a group, but you don't have to commit to it right away. So, like, yeah, I'd love to come check out, sit in a group or two. If you find one or someone points one along to you, there's not a whole lot of resources right now, which is part of why I'm trying to kind of spread the word to make it easier for men to find groups and create groups. There are some organizations that have pretty big presences, but you kind of got to like their style, so to speak. But again, you just got to try in network is always great. So you start asking people, you know, your therapist, your counselor, other men, like, hey, do you know anyone that's doing this kind of work really can help? And the other thing I would say is, particularly for groups that are led by someone, and so I lead these groups. So this applies to me is if they pretend like they have it all figured out, like run for the hills, agree. Just honestly, if you're going to be working with someone in a leadership capacity in that sense, you want to know they're still in process, because that never ends, right? I'm never going to be a healed, whole person. It's just part of the fun. We get to keep growing, right? And so I have coaches, I have therapists, I have men's groups. Everything I encourage a man to do, I'm doing my best to experience in my life as well, because I'm still growing, too. And so I would suggest look for that in leaders in the group, if so. And the other thing I would say is a group can start by just grabbing two buddies and saying, hey, do you want to get together on Saturday? And just like, I don't know, just really talk for like an hour where you're not focused on a sports game or doing some sporting event, but your attention is on each other and each other's lives. It can start that simply.

[59:19] Karin: Right?

[59:20] Jason: It's just what's going on underneath for you? Where are you hurting in life right now? What would you like to be moving towards? And a lot of men are way more open to it than people realize once they're in that frame, there's like a, I've seen it. Guys get into a group and finally they have somewhere to talk where people are listening, and it's like so much comes out because they've been holding so much. And it's one of the greatest thing acts of leadership I think men can do right now is to kind of go first and to take a conversation or a relationship deeper. So don't be afraid to start your own groups either if you can't find one around you. I certainly have dreams of creating some kind of master directory or something at some point to just like, what's the go to place where guys can try to find groups around them. That's on my trajectory. We'll see when I get there.

[01:00:09] Karin: Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, I'd love to see that, too. But, of course, you can find some groups through meetup.

[01:00:17] Jason: Yes. Meetup is really great sometimes. Eventbrite, probably the biggest organization with kind of a global presence, which does tend to have local groups, which I know is important to a lot of guys, particularly after all the zooms of COVID is the mankind project. They're pretty solid, and they do have a lot of groups. They do have a very unique style. So, again, you want to try it out and see, does this resonate with me? Do the men in the group resonate with me? And if it doesn't, you can keep looking for another group till you find something that really. The thing I would say is you really want to find a group that you feel safe in. That's really important. You want to feel safe where you can bring any of you. You don't have to perform, you don't have to pretend. And if you can find that safety, even if just with another two men, that's a great start.

[01:01:06] Karin: Yeah. And then, of course, there's the no more Mr. Nice guy groups.

[01:01:10] Jason: Yes.

[01:01:10] Karin: And then I've also heard good things about everyman. It's another.

[01:01:14] Jason: Yeah, every man does some online groups. I do some groups throughout the year. So the good news is, I think this is starting to catch on. There is such a need, I think, for men right now, and this really is one of the best, what I would say medicines for men right now in terms of just something we need for our nourishment and health. And so it's spreading like there should be more and more available in the coming years, which is really exciting to me because I think that's one of the big leverage points we have on the world right now, is healthier men, healthier families, healthier planet, healthier relationships. It can really start there.

[01:01:49] Karin: Great. All right, so a question I always ask all my guests is, what role does love play in the work that you do?

[01:01:57] Jason: Oh, it's the greatest joy in that. I think there's a particularly unique texture that I've experienced to masculine love. Just this total presence. I see you. I don't need you to be any different. I'm here with you. That I really feel in groups that can be so healing for men, to just feel another man who's not judging them or ranking them, but is just right there by their side, in a sense. So it's incredibly important to the work I do and again, may set off alarms for some men because of the man box. But it is amazing when I do deep group works to actually see men fall in love with each other. It's like, wow. So glad to have met you and I'm so touched to know you. My life is better having you in it and yeah, I feel so honored to be part of those circles.

[01:02:57] Karin: Wonderful. And how can people learn more about you?

[01:03:00] Jason: Yeah, easiest thing to do to stay in touch with me or check out my work is to go to evolutionary men and I have a podcast there that guys can tune into and I do all kinds of men's groups and men's events throughout the year. So if you need somewhere to start, just feel free to reach out.

[01:03:18] Karin: It has been wonderful to have you here. Jason, thank you so much. I think this is going to benefit a lot of people.

[01:03:25] Jason: Yeah. Thank you so much, Karin, for having me and for clearly the huge amounts of love and devotion you have to the men you work with as well.

 

Outro:

[01:03:32] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

 

 

What role does intuition play in our lives? More specifically, how can it serve us in our relationships? Kristen Bush, MS, CPC, and I get into the nitty gritty about how our intuition can make our lives better. We talk about intuition can help us with our boundaries, Kristen also gives some practical advice about how to access your intuition. 

Kristen Bush, MS, CPC, is an interdisciplinary life coach, which is a fancy way to say she holds multiple fancy degrees and certifications that are in support of helping people take scary, bold actions to re-create their lives. She’s REALLY GOOD at it when it involves getting to the core of what's holding us back. ​

Integrating best practices and principles from Positive Intelligence, Energy Coaching, Psychology, Social Work, Mindfulness, Spirituality, African-Centered Practice and other indigenous healing practices, Kristen helps purpose-driven professionals gain insight, breakthrough blocks, and develop the mental muscles that create sustainable momentum and change.

Learn more about Kristen:

Website: https://www.kristenbush.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kristendbush/

 

Learn more about Karin:

Website: https://www.drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

[00:49] Karin: Hey, everybody. Thanks for being here. Today I'm going to be talking with Kristen Bush, who is a coach, and one of the things she specializes in is helping people connect with their intuition. I don't think intuition really gets its due. It can really be a powerful way for us to engage in our lives, engage in our relationships, connect with ourselves, make good decisions, and so, so much more. I loved hearing Kristen's perspective and her wisdom on this topic and just loved connecting with her. As you'll notice, there's lots of laughter during this episode. It was a lot of fun for me. So we talk about, again, intuition and what that has to do with relationships and what that has to do with boundaries in relationships. And we talk about how people pleasing can really get in the way of intuition. So you'll learn more about that. You'll also get a lot of really practical tips toward the end, Kristen makes some really great suggestions and so I hope you'll stick around for that. I thought they were really fabulous and ones that I think I will use for me and my clients, too. So take a listen. I hope you'll share. And thanks for being here.

 

Karin: Kristen, welcome. I'm so happy to have you here today. Thank you.

[02:17] Kristen: I'm happy to be here. Excited to be here.

[02:19] Karin: Actually, people don't know that. We've actually been talking for almost 15 minutes now. We're just talking about all kinds of stuff that's been coming up for us in the other realms. So it's been really fun to connect already. But tell people where you are in the world.

[02:37] Kristen: Yeah, I was looking at that question. I was like, well, this is a deep question, but I am in my boyfriend's house, his family home in Houston, Texas, Sugarland, Texas, to be exact, in the United States.

[02:53] Karin: Why did I think you were in New York?

[02:55] Kristen: Because I lived in New York for, like, ten years. Yeah. And my whole calendar is East Coast. Based. And most of the folks that I work with are still in New York. So in some weird way, I'm kind of bicoastal.

[03:08] Karin: Okay, that makes sense. So was it your boyfriend that drew you down to Texas?

[03:14] Kristen: No, I met him when I came to Texas. Funny. I had been single for ten years in New York, and I moved to Houston and within three months I was in a relationship. And you do relationship coaching, so I don't know what that means, but.

[03:32] Karin: I.

[03:33] Kristen: Was just at a place where I was looking for a certain level of rootedness and connectedness and support. I was the only person in my family, close family anyway, that lived in New York. And it's challenging. And at the pandemic time, when you're in a house by yourself, I can't even call it a house in a tiny little box apartment. A tiny house by yourself. I really had to think, is this sustainable or do I want a different level of connection? I felt like I needed to be a part of a community where if I wasn't present, I would be noticed, I would be missed, and I was like an essential unit. It wasn't just like, you're nice to have, but you're needed and essential.

[04:21] Karin: Yeah. It sounds like you were searching for a sense of belonging, perhaps.

[04:25] Kristen: Yeah, deep belonging.

[04:28] Karin: That's great.

[04:29] Kristen: Yeah.

[04:30] Karin: So tell us what you do.

[04:33] Kristen: So I am both a life coach and I have my whole little thing written out here, but I'm a life coach and I'm a diversity equity and inclusion consultant. And so I realized for the first time this year, I'm like, you have two businesses, not one. Yeah. And really, in terms of life coaching, the folks that I work with are really people who are unconventional change agents and need a space to not feel crazy. Need a space where they actually can articulate all of the feelings, the thoughts, the divisioning that other folks have labeled delusional or crazy. Right. And are also looking for the mindset, the energy, you know, energy, coaching, and also the spiritual framework to support that level of calling. I would say so.

[05:33] Karin: I love that term, unconventional change agents. Tell me more about that.

[05:41] Kristen: It's funny because I came up with that this week because I was like, what is the common denominator in every single person I'm working with? I have person who's working in a male dominated industry that is very, let's just say emotions are like, what that doesn't really exist in that industry. And what she's desiring to bring into that industry is unconditional love. Right. Knowing full well that she's going to be laughed out of the room, but knowing full well that that's what's needed. And so she's created spaces where people can have these conversations around. What does it actually look like to center people in an industry that thinks this is laughable or thinks this is, like, superfluous, but yet and still she's doing that work. I have another client who is really meant to do work of public health, but right on one side of the world, and right now is on the completely opposite side of the world, and everyone in his world is telling him that it's virtually impossible to do that. Yet in his spirit, his intuition and gut is telling him to actually create that dream. Right. And he knows it's possible, but is dealing with the sabotage. Right. The sabotaging thoughts, and we're really doing work to shift his mindset around that. Yeah. And then I have other clients who have lost. They've known that they're change agents. They've been doing that work, but then their light has dimmed. Right. Maybe they've been in spaces for so long that have told them they're crazy or they're wrong, or it's just not that they feel kind of lost, like their light has dimmed, and it's really about coming back to themselves. So I have several clients who are in that space and state, and I've recognized that with all of them, they need a space that validates this very unconventional thing that they're trying to bring to the world that says, you're not crazy, you're not delusional, that says everything that you're thinking actually makes sense, because it does. You know what I mean? And there's actually tools that you can use to really support you when you're outside of this space, because it's hard. It's hard to hold a seed. Right, when everything in it is trying to abort it. Everything outside in the world that you're walking around is trying to abort it. It's hard to hold division, and that's really the space that I provide.

[08:15] Karin: I love it.

[08:16] Kristen: I love that.

[08:16] Karin: It really talked about intuition, and it sounds like you're really helping people stay connected with who they really are at their core, and then listen to that intuition.

[08:29] Kristen: Absolutely. And know that that's actually something you should be doing.

[08:35] Karin: Yeah. Because we're taught from a young age not to. Right.

[08:40] Kristen: Oh, my God. I think one of the questions you sent me was like, why is it so hard to trust your intuition? And I was thinking, I was like, I can't think of one institution, including the family system. Right. In which you're taught to prioritize your internal knowing over some external knowing. I can't think of one. I mean, I really want to ask your. Luke, can you even name one? I can't think of one.

[09:15] Karin: Yeah. I think of maybe these really evolved preschools that try to help kids get in touch with their emotions and express them. And those are usually kind of thought of as the fringe thing, but it's like, I want you to. You need to conform to our values and our standards, and that's usually how it's done. Right.

[09:43] Kristen: Yeah. Every single one from health care. Right. So much of it is like, listen to the expert. Right. And even when you know your body. I think about Serena Williams, like, almost died. And if she hadn't have listened to what she knew about her body, she would have. Right. To school. Absolutely freaking lootly. Religious institutions as much as I grew up Lutheran, which I have to say, out of all the christian traditions, I think is one of the most open minded. It's, like, all about having your own relationship with God, which shouldn't be a wild concept, right. And yet it is even still that you're taught about the Holy Spirit, but you're not taught what that looks like in practice. You're not taught what happens if the message you're getting inside of you is different than how this other person, how this authority has interpreted that. You know what I mean? You're not really taught that kind of stuff. So I just think in every single phase of life, we're taught to override that voice and listen to some external voice.

[10:57] Karin: Yeah. And I think about anyone who is part of the marginalized communities, and then they get that tenfold. Right.

[11:06] Kristen: Oh, my God. This is what we were talking about. And the reality is, I honestly think every single person has experienced marginalization because you've had to override your internal. Right. Your internal voice. But you're absolutely right. I'm only now thawing out. There are so many ways that I've had to numb to conform to a standard or an experience that is not the experience I'm having. And only now, like, 39 years in the game this week, starting this week, am I like, oh, my God, this is what's been underneath here. So, yeah. Even more so if you are in any group, that is not the standard. Right. Even more so, yeah.

[12:08] Karin: Okay. I could go down this road, but.

[12:11] Kristen: I want to also make sure we.

[12:12] Karin: Talk about what we're here to talk about today. So maybe you can just offer us a basic definition of what intuition is.

[12:20] Kristen: Yeah. And I was all in my house, like, should I give her the formal definition? But I'm just going to answer from my definition of intuition. I love a pragmatic thing. I'm pragmatic. I'm raised working class. I'm african American. It's like, if you can't break this down so we can do something with it, it ain't really useful. So for me, intuition is. It's your gut. It's your inner knowing. It's the holy spirit. It's that part of your stomach that gets that queasy feeling when you're doing something that you know is not in alignment, that you know you really don't want to be doing. Intuition is the still small voice that people talk about. Intuition sometimes is that loud voice that's like, no, I don't want to go to this event. Stay home.

[13:09] Karin: Sometimes our intuition screams at us, doesn't it?

[13:12] Kristen: Right? I love the things that are like, I'm so tired that I need to meditate and tap into my intuition. I'm like, maybe your intuition is telling you you're tired. Maybe that's actually where you need to start. Right? Yeah, it's all of that. It's your gut. I think gut is the thing that most people, when you say that, they instantly say, I know what that is. So it's your gut. It's that gut feeling.

[13:40] Karin: Yeah. And we've talked about intuition and getting to your true self. How are those two things, intuition and an authenticity, how are those connected?

[14:00] Kristen: From what I've experienced and what I've seen with the clients that I work with, to me, your intuition is your north star for authenticity. I don't know how you get to true authenticity without intuition, to be honest, because your intuition is what tells you when you've met the mark. You know what I mean? The other thing I'll say, I just want to just add this. I feel like authenticity is one of those words that we like it on the surface, but there's a whole lot more to it. I didn't know when I first started talking about authenticity. It sounded really cool being your cool inner self, bringing out your marvel geek, you know what I mean? But more and more, I'm like, oh, crap. You mean it's the secret self. It's the self that I don't show anybody. It's the self that I edit out and filter out. You know what I mean? Oh, that's authenticity and authenticity. Like living an authentic life is having one face every place. It's like really integrating, not compartmentalizing, not having 15 different versions of yourself that you pull out at certain occasions or in certain environments. And again, to me, the North Star, to even discerning what's truly you versus what Martha Beck would call social self or what is the self that pleases everyone is your intuition. I don't know how else you could discern.

[15:39] Karin: Yeah, yeah. And that word authenticity is definitely a buzzword these days, and yet it really does get at something important. It's about who we are at our core. Like we kind of mentioned earlier, is that we're taught from a young age to suppress that, and so we can get really far removed from who we are, who our authentic self is. So much so that a lot of us can't even identify who it is. Who are we at our core? Who is our authentic self at our core.

[16:14] Kristen: Yeah, that's true.

[16:16] Karin: And that takes some work.

[16:19] Kristen: I think it takes work to start identifying who are all the voices in your head and which are yours and which are other voices. Right. That you're just so used to listening to. I think it does take work, and not just work in terms of at the mind level, but in the body. I really think for me, I don't know, for other people, their experience, but for me, body work is also essential, because the body don't lie.

[16:49] Karin: Right?

[16:50] Kristen: Yeah.

[16:53] Karin: The more I learn and grow in this profession and just personally, the more I realize the fundamental truth of that statement, how so much of us lives in our body, we tend to overemphasize the head and the thinking and intellect and the rationalization, but that's just a part of us.

[17:16] Kristen: I wanted to stop my foot and say amen. And for me, again, so much has been coming up for me this week, but I've spent so much time in mindset work. Like, the mindset work. The mindset work. The mindset work. And while there is no replacement for mindset work, the body work is very important, too. You know what I mean? It's not just about mindset work. You got to do some body work, too.

[17:44] Karin: Yeah, so much for me, I end up getting a little bit repelled when I hear about mindset work, and that's not really fair because it is a really important piece of it, but it often tends to disregard the other important pieces of who we are and we are body. And so much of, I think about our nervous system and our emotions and how that is all part of our bodies. And if we don't feel safe in our bodies, then it's really hard to go to our head if we don't feel safe in our bodies, it's hard to express the emotions that are stored in the body. I mean, there's so much richness there.

[18:30] Kristen: I wanted to park, curl up with a blanket, and just sit in that statement. Yeah, that's so much truth. And I feel, at least for me, what's also been helpful is being able to locate my intuition in my body. Right. And locate. I love this. Remember as a kid playing that game, hot, cold, and it's like there's an item that somebody identifies in the room, and you have to try to guess it, and you're just kind of walking around. They're like, hot, hot, cold, cold, cold. Being able to identify that in terms of emotions, being able to identify that in terms of literally having a physiological response to the hot and cold of your intuition, I also think is extremely helpful. Yeah, the body is very important in it, too.

[19:22] Karin: So how does it help people to connect to their intuition?

[19:27] Kristen: For me, your intuition holds the answers to every question you have in life. And I know it sounds like this is crazy. How can you be so sure of that? That's such a big, bold statement. But I've tested this. Let me tell you, when I decided to go into this whole journey of entrepreneurship, it was number one. I said, I want to see if these things are true. I want to see if these spiritual principles are true. I want to see if this crap people are telling me is true. I'm tired of reading about it in books. I want to actually test this for myself. And the reality is, there are some questions in life. In fact, I would argue every question in life. But it's certainly the question of fulfillment that nothing outside of you can tell you how to get there. I've tried it. Yeah, nothing outside of you can tell you how to get there. I think it's why you can be doing all the things. I remember all the moments when I finally had the money that I wanted to make. I finally had the title that I wanted to be in. I finally had my own New York City apartment. I checked all the things, and I still had as much anxiety, know, unhappiness as I had before. And I was like, what now? You know what I mean? I think that's part of why we have that experience is because we're following these external standards that really may or may not have anything to do with what genuinely fulfills us. And I think it's a blessing to get to the place where you've tried it all and it didn't work because then you're willing to try something else, try something that's out of your comfort zone. But to me, intuition is the thing. It's the only guide to your fulfillment, right? Because there's so much nuance. There's so much nuance in this thing. Fill in the blank relationships. Where are my boundaries? What do my boundaries look like? What do they feel like? When are they getting crossed? When are they not intuition? Intuition is going to tell you every time, should I stay in this relationship or should I go, how do I know I'm staying in it for the right reasons? Right? I was literally asking myself. I said, kristen, I was in a relationship that my family and friends, well meaning, they knew my goals, my goals, and this person's long term goals at the time did not align. And they were like, you need to leave this not, it's not aligned. Other people were looking at all the checkboxes and saying, it's not aligned. And yet still my gut was telling me, stay. And I thought to myself, now I've had other experiences where it was a toxic relationship and I wanted to stay. So what's the distinction that I make between intuition and that I make between the toxic stay? Right?

[22:21] Karin: When you shift, when there's something else holding you in.

[22:25] Kristen: Exactly. And you know what? I, when I tapped in and tuned in and felt, okay, well, what did it feel like? What did that stay feel like when it was the right stay? And honestly, now we're heading to those same long term destinations that at the time, we weren't aligned in. But anyway, it was like still water, right? When I thought about and I felt about my relationship, it just was like still water. There was so much peace. It was like, why am I. It felt like I would have been leaving something peaceful because of some kind of mental construct that actually didn't apply in this moment. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, maybe five years down the line, maybe it isn't aligned, but right now it's deeply feeling aligned. But when I thought about the toxic relationship, it was need. It was need that was holding me. It was this feeling of like, oh, God, that anxious feeling. There was kind of like, I have to have this. I need to stay in this. They're almost like the claws, you know what I mean?

[23:30] Karin: Yeah.

[23:31] Kristen: It was not the peaceful, steel eased water. It didn't feel neutral. There was a feeling of almost like desperation. You know what I mean? I need a clinging and a clutching. And again, to me, how you learn to make these distinctions is by learning to know not only intuition in general, but specifically how it shows up for you. You know what I mean?

[24:06] Karin: Yeah. And so you help people kind of tune into when something has felt really good. What does that feel like?

[24:15] Kristen: Right.

[24:18] Karin: How does that show up for you? Yeah.

[24:21] Kristen: I help people tune into where does it show up in their body? Literally locate it on your body. What is it feeling like? I help them describe it and give it language, because I find there's something about giving something language that it helps you to really process it and remember it. I help them to describe how it actually feels like. Does it feel light? Does it feel heavy? Does it feel diffused? Is it centered in an area? Is it in your chest? Is it in your shoulders? Is it in your stomach? You know what I mean? And I help them to start making distinctions between that and other feelings. Right. Like I said, that need and that desperation. Where do you feel that? In your right? Where do you feel that? What does it feel like? Is it heavy? Is it light? Is it loud? Is it quiet? Is it soft? And after you kind of start to gauge that North Star, right after you can start to gauge. I like to even think of it. Marie Kondo's like, what sparks joy? Right? To me, that's what she's talking about. She's not calling it intuition, but when you're looking at the thing and there's something that's sparking in you, that's your intuition saying, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You know what I mean? And then when you start to look at each object and you're like, that doesn't feel like that. It's using your intuition to clean your life, to sort your house. So basically, I help people figure out, what does that spark joy for them? What does that feel? So that then when they're out and they're about in their life, or when they're making a decision, they can tune in inward and feel like, okay, is it feeling like that hot? Or is it feeling like I'm cold? It's a beautiful way to start the work of intuition, because it's so easy. You did it as a kid all the time. I love an easy tool.

[26:16] Karin: Yeah. And you talked about how that intuition has helped, you know, when a relationship is right or when it's not right. How else can intuition help people in their relationships?

[26:31] Kristen: I said it before, but for me, a big one is boundaries, boundaries, global gloom. I'm going to be really candid with you and your listeners, and I don't know what? PG rating.

[26:51] Karin: Go for it.

[26:52] Kristen: But I remember, I will never play this for my boyfriend, because he would not want to hear this. But I remember having sex with a previous partner, not my boyfriend. And something felt off. And it took me three days. Three days, Karen, before I could actually process, what is this? You know what I mean? And that was the first time that I started to realize, because of my beautiful upbringing, had learned to. When something didn't feel right. My immediate response was to compartmentalize, was to numb out and to deal with that later or never at all, right? So first, it was the first time I had an awareness of, I'm not connected to some part of myself in the moment, right? I'm walking around disconnected from a part of myself that actually has information that I probably want in real time. Because if you're having sex with somebody and something is off, you don't want three days to go by before you can figure out what that is. You want to know what the hell is going on, right? So then I started to just get curious and like I said, to begin some of this body work. But what I've really found, especially for people who have a well trained habit of people pleasing, which to me is, like, overriding your intuition, numbing out and overriding your intuition so that you can serve. Keep happy, please. The other, it's usually learned very early in childhood. I mean, I was doing work this week where I literally got back to the moment that my origin story, the moment that this version of myself was created. But your intuition helps you. Like, getting back in tune with your intuition will help you break out of patterns of people pleasing. It will help you get out of the automatic cycle loop that you're in. And I will say yes again, mindset work is helpful. But to me, body work, when you start to get connected to, what does it feel like to override your intuition, to dishonor your voice? Because there is a feeling that comes up in the body. You can't lie. You can't not see it. And so I remember a moment when I knew everything in my body, knew I did not want to go on, to go out of town. It was for a friend. And I was doing all this sabotaging behavior, procrastinating, not buying the ticket, being flaky, all this crap, which we do instead of just listening to our intuition and saying, okay, you don't want to go. And I remember feeling that dishonest at every step, at every choice, every time. I just kept going, because that's what this person wanted. I had visceral feelings come up in my body and to the point where literally a version of myself was screaming, when do I get a say? It got to that point, and I was like, oh, crap. And in that moment, it was like, okay, stop the presses. Let me finally tune in and listen to this, because my body's telling me something, and that's all about boundaries. Go ahead, say what you're going to say.

[30:34] Karin: There's so much that I want to say about that, but it reminds me that one of the things that I say is that it's not that you have to come up and think about what boundaries you want for yourself. You already have them. It's really just about tuning into yourself and discovering what your boundaries already are and then communicating them.

[31:01] Kristen: I want to do the church stomp again because you know what's so powerful to me about that? I've tried it the other way. Right? I've tried the artificial way where you try to hold a boundary that you think should be your boundary, and then you beat yourself up because you can't really hold it. You know what I mean? Because it's not your real boundary versus when you feel into what is my real boundary like, stop making it up just because this book says that should be your boundary. Maybe it's not your boundary. You know what I mean? What is your real boundary? Start with that, and your body will tell you, your gut, that feeling, it will come up. I mean, I feel nauseous when I'm violating my boundaries. My stomach gets tight when I'm violating my boundaries. All kinds of things come up for me. So it's really about tapping in and tuning in, as you're saying. My intuition not only comes up in terms of a physiological response, but even like I said, there was a part of me that was screaming, when do I get a say?

[32:04] Karin: And the funny thing is that we develop these people pleasing parts to try to stay in these relationships. And yet, when we are overriding our own boundaries, we end up sabotaging those relationships and doing things that actually end up damaging those relationships.

[32:23] Kristen: Absolutely.

[32:24] Karin: But if we can just be honest and learn how to do that and communicate those boundaries, then those Relationships are usually a lot stronger. Especially if they're healthy.

[32:36] Kristen: Absolutely. Oh, my God. And I don't think you can have intimacy if you're not being honest about your boundary. Right. Because you're not really present. And I've also had that experience where I tried the people pleasing way, and the person broke up with me anyway. And I thought to myself. I never actually showed up in the relationship. I was never there. You know what I mean? I was sending some version, some constructed version of myself. But I guess that's the other thing, too, is going back to that space around authenticity. If you're not honoring your boundaries, if you're not connected to your intuition, then you're not really in a relationship.

[33:16] Karin: Yeah. Who are you?

[33:18] Kristen: And guess what? That's what the other person is feeling, thinking on some level. I tell you, every person where I've played that game, at some point I got feedback that they're like, I didn't really know who you were, or you just seem kind of fake, or it just seemed kind of shallow, or you never really had an opinion. At some point, I got that kind of feedback. People feel it and sense it, too, because they have intuition, right?

[33:40] Karin: Their intuition is speaking up. And then you have. We have two people pleasers, right? And you have the one person who's saying, yeah, that's fine. And the other person is like, are you sure it's fine? Yeah, I'm saying it's fine. But the other person knows, and then.

[33:58] Kristen: They can't really trust that.

[34:01] Karin: When you say it's fine, it really.

[34:03] Kristen: Is, and it really is fine.

[34:05] Karin: But when you can speak up for your needs and say, this is the boundary or this is a no, then when you say yes, they can trust it.

[34:14] Kristen: Absolutely. Yeah. For me, in relationships, it's both. Intuition has come up full and fledged both in is this relationship aligned with me? But going back, how can you answer that question with me if you're not connected to you, but also my boundaries in a relationship, and when am I honoring them and when am I dishonouring them? And as a people pleaser, and I'm aware that this is my pattern. I'm constantly checking in with, how does this feel? Because I'm real quick to go along to get along. You know what I mean? That's an autopilot for me. So because I'm aware that that's an autopilot. When I make a decision or I make a choice, or I find, like you've been going along a lot lately, I tap into, how does this feel in my body? Am I feeling those still waters of peace? Or is there some level of troubled waters? Is there some part of myself that I'm muzzling, that I'm suppressing, that I'm denying to go along, get along? And I found that again. Your gut knows. To your point, I think you mentioned this. It's not an analytical exercise. You're not thinking these things. You're checking in with what you're feeling, that intuitive knowing, what is your gut saying?

[35:37] Karin: And that takes slowing down, doesn't it?

[35:40] Kristen: Yeah.

[35:41] Karin: And that can be really hard for people, especially when they've got all of these obligations. Maybe they've got a partner and a high pressure job, and maybe they've got kids and friends and all these things, and they're just go, go. And they don't stop to really check in with their bodies and what their intuition is trying to say. And then they just find themselves on this path and like, how did I get here?

[36:05] Kristen: How did I get here? Yeah, I've been there. Oh, me too.

[36:10] Karin: Yeah. We are not above anyone else, are we? We talk about this from experience.

[36:17] Kristen: I got to the place where I tell people I wasn't just burnt out, I was spiritually dehydrated. I needed life support in terms of how I felt inside, to the point where I remember before I got on the path that I was supposed to be on, which was entrepreneurship. I remember getting offered an interview for a position in Houston that was almost identical to the position I had left in New York. Great money, great title, great school. I was working higher ed at the time, and I am not at all exaggerated when I say, if somebody had offered me a billion dollars to go on that interview, I couldn't have done it to save my life. I could not have done it to save my life. And I'm somebody. I lived in New York City by myself. Like, I'm used to shucking and driving and do whatever I need to do to survive. I couldn't have done it. I remember the moment I was thinking, if they asked me why you wanted this job, I know my lips would say I don't, right? And I wouldn't be able to say anything else, right? So I know what you mean when you say there are people, you've been on the treadmill, you're doing all the things that everything in life is telling you you should do to win. And at some point, you look up and you're like, how the hell did I get here? And what the hell is going on? And why am I feeling this way?

[37:56] Karin: Right? It reminds me of a recent experience that I had. So I'm still working on this, too. So I'm part of a band, and we had someone in the band, and this person just had some emotional challenges, and she wasn't a bad person at all. But I realized over time that, oh, this is an old pattern. I'm reliving the same old pattern where I'm trying to help this person in my life, and I'm overriding my own needs to do everything I can for this other person. And as soon as I clued into my body and what was going on, I can't do this anymore. And it was really hard, but it was absolutely the right thing. I needed to end that relationship. Yeah, I think that's often what does happen is we end up repeating these patterns, like you said, that we learn when we're young. And oftentimes it's a pattern with a caregiver. We repeat this unfinished business with these caregivers, and we keep doing that throughout our lives. And yet it's not usually very effective.

[39:19] Kristen: Right, it's not effective, and it was effective then. You know what I mean? Right. But we now have choice and agency, and we're not there anymore. I love you saying, just connecting it to that early stuff. And I don't know if I should go down that path or we should just move on. Karen, we're going to have to have another. Yes, we are. Just one on one. We'll do it. We'll do it. For sure. Early versions of myself have been showing up, and like I said, I've been connecting to a lot of my patterns, origin stories, which has been so healing and really opened up a lot of compassion, even around my judge, my inner critic, and these parts of myself that come up in sabotage.

[40:15] Karin: Yeah. And that reminds me, too. I think it was, oh, maybe it was on your instagram page where you said something about the eight and 80 year old versions of yourself.

[40:30] Kristen: Tell us about that. Well, I mean, where do you want to start? I will start with this. And you can fill in from the psychological point of view, because I am a student of psychology, social work, as well as these spiritual woo woo things. So, I mean, the first time that I really learned that you could connect with, it's a part of your intuition, right? Which is your elder, wiser self was in a program called positive intelligence. And they speak of intuition as, like, one of the sage gifts, but really, that's what it is. It's intuition. Then I learned about this again in a spiritual program, right? A rite of passage program where we literally were going and working with different, like, each decade of ourselves, like, zero to 1010 to 20, because each decade, there's different things that you're meant to learn. Embody, give, et cetera, et cetera. And so then I started to learn, oh, wow. Not only can I connect to these younger parts of myself, I can connect to future parts of myself as well. And then I learned, doing mindset work, that at the subconscious level of the brain, all of these parts exist, and time doesn't exist. Right. So they're all existing. And for each of these parts, it's as if you're in present time. Right. And so what's so fascinating? I just say that because I love when there's these connective tissues between disciplines, right. And so you really can see that it's not just something that the woo woo people say or something that this positive intelligence guy says or something that these weird mindset, when three different parties say it, that are not connected, there is some gravity and truth to it, right. It's verifiable, if you will, but really, what it is, it's really getting. I don't know. I've done it with clients, and it hasn't been difficult for them at all to do it. So I don't even know that you need to be extremely practiced. Right. I really do believe because all of these versions exist within ourselves, and they all think they're in the present, tapping in and tuning in and having an openness and really just calling them forth, you would be shocked that you are actually able to access parts of very early childhood, parts of yourself that have wisdom, that have guidance in particular around your current needs.

[43:09] Karin: Yes, that sounds very ifs internal family systems like to me, that, yeah, we all have these parts and help us heal or help us progress or give us insight or perspective. Absolutely.

[43:29] Kristen: And I would say, too, before I get into the elder wiser stuff, I'd say what I've learned is that it's really important to connect to these parts, because if we don't, they end up showing up in times, in places where we don't necessarily desire them to be. Right. And also, they end up acting out when we don't listen to them, when we're not meeting this need, when we keep ignoring it or overriding it or numbing it. Right. It ends up coming out in some shape, form, or fashion in some other way. It can come up as health issues. Right. So for any of your folks that are into metaphysical stuff, I learned that my fibroids at a metaphysical level are suppressed joy. Like suppressed joy and passion. Now, I won't even get into that because literally, I'm a verify everything kind of person. I was trained in psychology. I'm like, I don't just take it. It has to show up multiple times, multiple places. And it was true. Right. So it can show up as physical ailments. At this point, everybody knows things like weight gain, a lot of times is related to emotions that we haven't processed in the body. Disease is related to stress and other things that we haven't, traumas that we haven't processed in the body, but it can also show up as inappropriate behavior. You want to know why you're sabotaging certain things? Start checking into some of these. Start tuning in to your younger child self. Right. Different versions of it in particular. What I love about the elder wiser self is that it oftentimes can help us navigate the unknown because it actually has the answers for your next right step. Now, you can't say, elder wiser self, tell me how to win the lotto and things like that, but you can say, elder wiser self. What's my next right step here? What is it that I need to know? What is it that I need to be aware of? What is it that I need to release? You can ask it questions and receive aligned answers, and it's just so powerful. It's one of the things that's made me say the universe really is loving. If there's people in your eyes that believe in God, that God really is loving, like I said, I'm in a place. Let's verify this stuff. Let's not just say it. Somebody said the universe is loving and progressive. How do we know?

[46:04] Karin: Yeah, right. That sounds nice.

[46:09] Kristen: When you know that, well, you've been equipped, every single person has been equipped with a gps that knows your next right step, that has the answers to every question you have in life, that knows exactly what needs you have. What needs were unfulfilled, how to heal them, where to go, how to connect to mentors. Who are your people? Then it's like, whoa, wait a second. This does feel loving. It actually does feel loving. So, yes, every single person has access to their elder wiser self. And I'm telling you, it's not hard once you know how to tune in, once you know what your intuition feels like, once you know what it kind of sounds like, it's not hard to get there. And I have so many clients that have been doing it and didn't know this was a thing. I'm like, we're going to tap into our elder. I've already been talking to my older, evolved self. I didn't know that this was a thing. Yeah, it's a thing.

[47:11] Karin: What's something our listeners can do to connect to their intuition? How can they get more in touch with it?

[47:19] Kristen: Yes, I'm going to give you several things, and I'm going to start with plugging someone else who I think, for me is one of the gurus of intuition, and that's Martha Beck. She has a book, finding your own north star. I have it literally right here. And what I love about this book is not just reading. She gives you. With each chapter there's an exercise, right? And it's something simple. Literally. The first exercise she has, she's asking you questions like, answer whether you feel this is true for you. Often, sometimes, rarely or never. My life feels like a great adventure. So you answer, okay, sometimes I say, then start asking yourself, when was the last time you felt like life was a great adventure? What does a great adventure feel like? Right. And as you're answering these questions, this is my ad to this exercise. Feel what are you feeling in your body. Right? What are you feeling in your body? Outside of her book, even though, like I said, she has thousands of exercises that you can do that are really designed to hone that feeling of what does my intuition feel like when I'm in alignment? And what does my intuition feel like when I'm out of alignment? Right. But outside of that book, what you can start with is think about a time where your gut told you you had a strong gut feeling about something, to do something, and you listened, right. And it actually turned out well for you. And really get specific when you're thinking about that time, describe it in terms of all your sensory memory, and then feel what are you feeling in your body as you think about that, right. And then actually write it down. Some people go so far as to say to name it, and then to think about a time when you had a strong gut feeling about something that you knew this was not something that I wanted to do. And when you listened to it and you were right, right. Or you didn't listen to it, it may be even more powerful. And you felt that feeling of discord when you didn't listen to it. And later on, you learned, see, I should have listened to my gut. You had that feeling. Oprah always talks about that. So many people on her show showed up and said, see, I should have listened to my gut and feel what did that feel like when you didn't listen to your gut? What does it feel like in your body? Do that same sensory memory, right. And really take the time to write it out. Does it have a name? I say that because the more texture you get to it, the easier it will be to recognize it when it shows up. In your day to day. And then I say, play the hot, cold game. Take one day or even one moment, right, and go to things like in your everyday life. When you're at Starbucks, look at a coffee that you know you hate. They have that one that's like, apple something spice. I'm like, apple and coffee does not work. You know what? Listen for play the hot cold game. Am I feeling closer to that feeling of when I knew I was in alignment, or am I feeling closer to the feeling where I wasn't? And start off with things where, you know, like, you have a strong feeling around it. Don't start off with something that's neutral. Start with where you know you have a strong feeling. My boyfriend likes this weird anime. I know. I don't like that stuff. Start with stuff where you have a strong visceral reaction one way or the other to just start getting acquainted with. What does my intuition feel like in my body? You could even do that with your own history. We all got bad dating stories.

[51:13] Karin: Absolutely.

[51:14] Kristen: Go down memory lane and play the hot cold game. Like, was it hot when you think about this? It wasn't cold. So that's, to me, start with easy things like that. Right? Because again, I think it's fun. I think it's easy. I think it's basic. If you want more complicated things, I say, and they're not complicated, check out her book. One of my favorite exercises that she has. She basically has you write a story, and one of them is, like, all the best case scenario, your best day with your best people, with the best things that you want to do that just tickle your toes and the best food. And then she has you write, like, the worst day with the three people that bring out your worst mood. You know what I mean? Doing the mundane activities that just bring out your worst mood. And she has you feel into both of those experiences. And I'm telling you, after that, there's no question you will know, what does it feel like when I'm in alignment and what does it feel like when I'm out of alignment?

[52:15] Karin: Great stuff. Great stuff. Thank you. So what's one thing you'd really like people to walk away with after listening to this conversation?

[52:25] Kristen: The thing I'd like people to walk away with is that intuition is as essential as IQ and as EQ. I think it's spiritual IQ. I think we just haven't developed the cue for it. It's as essential, if not more so. I think so many people have it and have connected with it. They just didn't know that this is something they were supposed to be listening to and following. They just thought, okay, every now and again, I get that feeling. They didn't know. You can really be tapped in and tuned into this thing all the time, and they don't know that it holds every answer to every question that you need to have, that you have. So that's the biggest thing is, I would say is, you're not crazy, you're not weird. It's not just some thing that comes and goes, but it's as important as your intellectual intelligence. It's as important as your emotional intelligence. It's a spiritual intelligence that you've been gifted with, and it really is your key to life.

[53:28] Karin: So, what role does love play in the work that you do?

[53:36] Kristen: Ah. I mean, how deep do you want to get? In my rite of passage program, we had to pull a principle, right? And we didn't know what it was. You pull a number. My principle is love, right? So I think love is, for me, it's a harmonizing, unifying force, and it really is the lens in which I do everything that I do. When I do dei work, first and foremost, I am looking for the soul of people that I am already aligned with, and I am calling people back into alignment with their highest self. Right. When I do coaching work, I'm looking for the soul of people, and I'm calling people back into alignment with their truest, divinest, biggest, boldest self. So that is love to me. It's harmonizing, it's unifying, it's aligning, and it's seeing people in their God self. So it's the center, it's the heart of the work that do.

[54:36] Karin: Wonderful. And how can people learn more about you?

[54:40] Kristen: The easiest way is probably Instagram. It's Kristen D. As in donut Bush. That's my handle. And yeah, definitely, you can see my different videos each Wednesday. I have a wind down Wednesday where I do a talk about different things that are coming up for either my clients, for myself, that are related to things like intuitions, principles, authenticity. I literally did one on authenticity yesterday. So I think that's a great way to kind of get acquainted with who I am and what I do. And you can always book a one on one if you're one of those people that, you know, you're a change maker and, you know, like, you do have an extremely unconventional idea, an unconventional way of working, and you need a space to birth that before it gets aborted by all the naysayers in the world. Then reach out and contact me. Even better if spirituality and woo woo ness is a part of your cultural.

[55:41] Karin: Ethos and that would be a good, wonderful, wonderful. Well, Kristen, it's been just a joy. I have loved spending this time with you and getting to know you, so thank you so much for being here and sharing all your wisdom.

Outro:

[55:57] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.

 

 

Beck Thompson, your Dating & Relationship Coach, podcast host, and author of an international best-seller, is also the heart behind The Relationship Circle. With over a decade of experience in coaching and therapy, Beck is here to dive deep into the wonderful world of relationships. Through a compassionate and no-nonsense approach, Beck helps individuals and couples uncover the quirks and sparks in their connections. Together, you'll identify the good stuff, shake up old habits, and create the kind of bonds that laugh in the face of life's curveballs. Get ready to embrace honesty, openness, and unwavering support. Beck's here to guide you to love that is unshakable, and a relationship that fills you with joy and completeness.

Learn more about Beck:

Website: www.therelationshipcircle.com

IG: www.instagram.com/the_relationship_circle

Learn more about Karin:

Website: www.drcalde.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

Sorry, no transcript today!

 

Come join us for a conversation about anxious and avoidant attachment styles and why they so often end up together. We'll also talk about conflict and what love has to do with this work. You'll also hear both of us get choked up at the end of our conversation and hear how lucky we both feel to be working with people like you! 

Staci Bartley is an integrative couples therapist. she's also a Certified Divorce Mediator, Certified Strategic Intervention Coach, graduate of energy and intuitive science, lifelong study of psychology, human sexuality, and universal principles. She is a speaker and workshop facilitator for medical and mental health professionals and has contributed to two wellness programs for fortune 500 companies. She is the Author of "Feeling Like Marriage is Dead? A Divorce Mediators Guide For Ensuring a Lifetime of Love." She is also the host of Love Shack Live along with her husband Tom. Love Shack Live is a live weekly radio show being broadcasted on KKNW 1150.

Learn more about Staci:

Website: www.stacibartley.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/stacibartley/

Learn more about Karin:

Website: www.drcalde.com

IG: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

 

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

 

Karin: Hello, everybody, and welcome to season two of Love is us. I'm so glad you're here and I have so many great guests lined up for this next season and I wanted to start off it off with a bang and I think I accomplished that. I am talking with Stacey Bartley today. She is a couple's therapist and she has been doing this work for a really long time and her depth of knowledge is impressive. But more than that, she's also just this really warm, loving person and I just could keep talking with her for hours, I think, so it was hard to keep it to an hour, but I think that this episode is just jampacked with great information. We talk specifically about that familiar pattern of these different attachment styles where one is more anxious and one is more avoidant and how that seems to be a common pairing. So we talk about why that is and what happens and what to do about it and also talk a lot about conflict. So I think you're going to enjoy this one. I really hope that you will share it with others and also leave me a review because that will help this podcast be seen by more people. So thanks again for being here. And here we go. Hello, Stacey.

[02:15] Staci: Hi, Karen. Good to see your beautiful face.

[02:18] Karin: And yours too. It's good to see you again. This is our second go round. We had had a really fun conversation a couple of months ago and our technology failed us. So lucky us, we get to spend some more time together.

[02:35] Staci: I know. I think it's really kind of a get to. There was no disappointment in that whatsoever. It was more of like, yes, wonderful.

[02:44] Karin: And I'm excited to talk with you. And so we decided just to kind of shift just a little bit, just because, yeah, we had that conversation and now I want to have a different one. So we're going to talk a bit about attachment today, but I wanted to start off with my standard questions and the first one is, where are you in the world?

[03:05] Staci: I am in Sacramento, California, in a little hilltown called Auburn. It's about 25 miles northeast of Sacramento, so it's beautiful. I have my private practice here as well, so we get a little bit. I'm from Utah, so I have this association with park city, if you're familiar with that. It's kind of like a little mini, quasi park city. It's very rich in food and music and art and culture and the little place where I live, I get to just walk everywhere. My office is about five minutes from where I live, so my husband and I share a car. I often say, gosh, we're kind of like college students. We have this one car that we share, but good. Really good. So that's where I'm at in the.

[03:55] Karin: I didn't. I knew you were in the Sacramento area, but I don't think I realized you were in Auburn. I've been through there. I haven't spent much time there.

[04:03] Staci: Yeah, we're about an hour and a half from Tahoe, from the sierras there, so we can go skiing, but we're also just shy of 2 hours to the coast. So we're kind of located in this little pocket where we can have access to many things. And then another hour and a half to Napa and wine country and Sonoma. And so there's some beautiful places in the world here, and that's why we stay. We love it so much there. So much here.

[04:30] Karin: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, tell us what you do for work.

[04:35] Staci: So I work with individuals and couples around relationships, conflict repair. Families often get brought into that. But that's the crux of my work. Through my studies and my journey, as we all have one, I realize that relationships are kind of at the heart of the human experience and that our mental, emotional, physical pain comes from relationship either with myself or others. And so I thought, that's where I want to double down. I want to go right to the heart of the matter. And so that's why I chose to do relationships. I could just see their impact on the human experience.

[05:14] Karin: I feel you. Absolutely. And I'm curious. I know you didn't start necessarily doing the work you're doing now, so how did you get there?

[05:27] Staci: Well, I'll try and shorten that. But started in my own journey in 1996, I was going through a divorce and questioning. It was that pivotal moment in my life where I was questioning the foundation which I had built my adult life on. And it was a divorce that had finally caused me to start reevaluating all kinds of things, my religion, adult life, the foundation and premise that I was building my life on. So I started my own journey of trying to put my hot mess back together. Studied hypnotherapy first. That's where I started in hypnotherapy. That just made the most sense. Right, let's just short circuit this and go right to the way the brain thinks and began there. And then when I stepped in and opened up a private practice of hypnotherapy, I had a lot of fear and insecurity around doing the work that I do. Come up and I went, oh, no, this isn't for me. I'm not doing this. I've not selected correctly here. And so I actually embarked on a journey of going into medicine and thought I was going to pursue that route and did some premed courses and started learning about the body and digestive health. And again, I wanted to go right to the heart. Like, what affects health in a human being? Digestion. Digestion is not working. Then everything else goes haywire. You can start to see a theme emerge there, right. For me, I'm always kind of looking at what affects what and what's the pivotal heart of it all. And what was interesting is, as I opened up a wellness center focusing on digestive health, I would always find myself in these relational conversations, and I was also able to start seeing how the emotional and the physical work in tandem, firsthand, in my experience, which was exceptionally fascinating to me. And then, of course, the realization that I've already shared with you, like, look, if you really want to support a human being, then go to the emotional side, because that's the part that's more challenging, number one. And number two, that's the catalyst for so many things, right? So that's when I doubled down and started much of my trauma work, my art therapy work, my divorce mediation work, was finally the cherry on top, because, quite honestly, I was very conflict avoidant myself. I did not like conflict. I was very uncomfortable in it. And I thought, man, if I'm going to get good at this, I've got to handle this for myself. So had a mentor teacher that brought me in and allowed me to work in her practice for three years, teaching me divorce mediation, allowing me to work side by side with her, and was able to overcome a lot of the conflict stuff that I myself was a little adverse to.

[08:12] Karin: Yeah, it is interesting how we do tend to be drawn to the work that also helps us, and if we can recognize that and do the work for ourselves, then we can be so much more effective, can't we?

[08:30] Staci: 100%. Well, I think that's the thing that's going to keep you in it. I love the saying, we teach what it is we need to learn. And the fastest way and easiest way for us as a human being to learn it is to teach it and share it. So I learn it and teach it, and then I learn more. Right. So I always say to my clients, you're teaching me as much as I'm teaching you. Like I'm here, probably because I need it more than most, not because I've got it all figured out. So let's just be clear about that. That reciprocal gift of human interaction and relationships is, I think, one of the most precious gifts we get from being a human being. Sometimes we forget that and thank you.

[09:09] Karin: For that, because I think that is so important. And I think it took me a little while to figure that out, that I wasn't going to be coming in and saving people. I wasn't going to be coming in as someone above my clients, and that wasn't going to serve them. And when I could learn that we are all in this together, and I'm going to hopefully help facilitate something with you. But I'm no better than anybody else, and we can all help one another.

[09:40] Staci: In different ways, 100%. What we're good at in our profession, in my humble opinion, is we're just good at helping you explore the answers for yourself. I'm not going to give you answers for your life. What I am going to do is help you select and choose the ones that are correct for you. And I feel like for me to do otherwise would be very misleading. How dare I make a choice for your life the likes of which you're going to live out, and I'm going to go home and continue to do life on my side. Right. And yet I've perhaps overstepped a boundary there and said, this is what you need to do. This is your answer right here. I'm giving it to you. It doesn't work like that. I might have my ideas on my thoughts and suggestions, which I'll share, but ultimately, you've got to make the choice, and it's got to be one that works for you. It's got to be one that serves you. It's got to be one that you're willing to take, because you're going to be the only one that lives out that choice, the only person in the conversation who's going to reap the consequences of that choice. So I think it's an important piece for us all to remember. We don't get to make choices for other people. We can only help them sort through the choices that they need to make for themselves and find those answers. And that's what we get really good at, regardless of the medium that we're using.

[10:56] Karin: Right. So today we're going to talk about attachment. And I would love it if you just went through the four basic styles and gave people just a basic overview of what those four different styles are.

[11:11] Staci: I think the four basic anxious, anxious is something that we're very familiar with. And most of the conversation happens around an anxious. And then the second one is avoidant. Avoidant is the seemingly reach for. And we can talk about that, why that's such a famous pairing together, the anxious and the avoidant, and how those attachment styles coalesce together and why they're so attractive to the other person, how that has the interplay there. And then there's the anxious avoidant, disorganized, which means I have a little bit of that, but I'm really disorganized in the way that I attach. And then there's the secure attached, and of course, that's the one that we're all seeking for. And as we dive into this conversation around attachment style, I think it's really important for us to just let listeners know that we don't, as a human being, step into an attachment style and stay there. It's not like we finally arrive at being securely attached and then we've got it all handled and done. Relationships and the emotional experiences of relationships don't work like that. And I think sometimes we hold that idea, especially when we talk about attachment theory, that it is a place that I finally can arrive at and then just stay there. When we really think about the honest experience around that, we start to see, actually we cycle through those, even the best of us, who maybe come from securely attached households or have been given many demonstrations about what securely attached looks like. We ourselves are going to cycle through places of feeling avoidant or anxious. A little disorganized at times where I'm kind of wrestling with both, but we can just more quickly go back to finding a secure place to stand on. And to be quite truthful, I can see times in my life where I was exceptionally avoidant for a long decade of my life after coming out of a divorce. Right. I didn't want to get close to anybody. Relationships were going to be done on my own terms. I made it up in my mind and in my thinking that I didn't need anybody, it was dangerous to attach to somebody, to fully get in. And so, yeah, I'll have a good time and we can go on dates and hang out and stuff, but don't ask me to commit. Don't even ask me to go there. And I can also see in my earlier life where I was very much a pleaser and wanted nothing more than to be loved, to be appreciated, to be seen, to be validated, to be held and comforted, and to feel safe, I was exceptionally anxious in my attachment style. And so just to put a disclaimer out there that these are experiences in the relationship journey and not places that we are stuck in, which is good news for any of us who might be struggling in an avoidant or anxious pattern. And it's also important for us to remember that just because we're experiencing a period of secure attachment doesn't mean that the person I'm in love with changes, or our circumstances changes, or life throws us a curveball and all of a sudden we can start feeling like we're experiencing some of the other three attachment styles. And I'd love to get your thoughts on that too.

[14:34] Karin: Yeah. And I love that you said that because it really isn't about a diagnosis or putting people in a box. Because we can experience all of the attachment styles, we are not one style, and different people might bring out those different tendencies in us. And it can vary across our lifetimes. And I have absolutely experienced probably all four. Certainly the anxious, certainly the avoidant and the secure.

[15:06] Staci: Yeah.

[15:06] Karin: This is not to say that there is anything wrong with anybody, and yet some of those styles can get in our way of really enjoying our relationships and connecting at a deeper level. And so understanding what's going on and working with it can be really helpful.

[15:25] Staci: I completely understand that. Yeah. And I totally agree with that as well. It's kind of like being able to give us the you are here map, right. It doesn't mean you're stuck here, it just means know where you are and at the heart of it, what is it you're really needing? And what I find very interesting, especially in the anxious avoidance, since that's such a common pairing, is that everybody's really wanting the same thing, which is to feel safe emotionally in the relationship, to feel validated, to feel valued and important. And the way of coping with my fear and insecurity in that dynamic is just different. It's not right or wrong or good or bad. I get lots of questions on our social media about how do I get my avoidant to admit that they're avoidant? And maybe it's not about that. Maybe it's more about understanding why they feel like they need to be avoidant or what their inclination emotionally is to pull away and seek refuge in their coping style with their fears and insecurities around that, that might be a better conversation to have. Right. And understand, rather than forcing them to take the quiz and do several things. That kind of gives the anxious the I'm right. Right. I've got it all figured out. I know I've got to the bottom of what our problems are. And sometimes we don't realize in just that conversation it can be very negating, very invalidating.

[16:50] Karin: Yeah. So maybe you can talk a little bit about what anxious attachment looks like in a relationship.

[17:00] Staci: An anxious is constantly worrying that they're doing enough, that they're showing up in a way that works. They're doing a lot of emotional, what I call emotional weightlifting for the relationship. They're hypersensitive to everything that's said and done, and they're interpreting what that means along the way. And because we have these internal narratives, we all do as a human being, we are probably going to insert, more times than not, the interpretation that comes from a lot of my fear and insecurity. And so anxious is very good at probably self doubt and self judgment and criticism. And so when you forget something or you say something that fires off my fear and insecurity, or you don't want to have sex, all of a sudden I'm not good enough and I need to fix it and I need to understand why, and you've got to fix it for me so that I can relax and feel like we're safe. I need a tremendous amount, typically, of validation, reassurance in this place, because what's playing for typically anxious is just the reeling that I'm not getting it right, I'm not doing it right, I'm not enough, I'm not pretty enough, I'm not smart enough. And I can show and find evidence in my internal environment all the way around me of proof that that is indeed what you are making up is true, which, when you stop to think about it, we're making up a lot of stuff there. Based on my fear and insecurity, that probably is not true. And the avoidant actually has the separate coping side. Right. The more they need to reassure and validate and give, the more exhausted they get. So they run out of emotional gas pretty quickly and then they just think, I got to get back out of here. I can't do this anymore. This isn't working for me. I'm feeling stuck. I'm feeling suffocated. I need a break. I need some space. And that's what drives that anxious avoidant. Interesting to note, though, that when the avoidant pulls away and the anxious continues to invite them back into the relationship, that is very, very reassuring for the avoidant, right? They're getting all of this attention and love and thoughtfulness and, man, maybe they really do care, right, because they're pulling away because of their own fears and insecurities as well. And then they get a tremendous amount of reassurance and outreach and outpouring from the anxious person. When they have pulled away and decided they needed space and that feels pretty good, all of a sudden they start hearing and seeing and witnessing evidence of things that they are valued and important to the person. It's not just all about them. And so often this pairing goes round after round after round in this dynamic. The avoidant comes back, the anxious feels better, and we go through this period of time where it's like we're never going to do this again. And then the fear and insecurity starts to flash again. And we go through another round of just that. The anxious feeling like the avoidant doesn't love them, they're doing all these things that are wrong. The avoidant gets tired of hearing it, pulls away. The anxious goes, oh, my gosh, I'm realizing, I love you, come back. And they go, jeez, that feels pretty good. Yeah. And now we know why that's such a common pairing.

[20:24] Karin: So a few things come up for me. I think about when I have clients who are experiencing that anxiety in their relationship, I hear a lot from them. I hear a strong self critic. Like you mentioned, they're very self critical and judgmental of themselves. And I also hear from them, oh, I just hate to be so needy. I feel so needy. There's that that comes up so much, and it's just like this cycle of acting out and trying to get that other person close to them, but then hating on themselves for trying to get that closeness and trying to repair that relationship or get that reassurance. The other thing that I notice with the person with that anxiety is that they're very other focused. It's about seeking that validation outside of them. And they seem to have a harder time with self love and being able to soothe themselves.

[21:24] Staci: Maybe it would be helpful to just talk about judgment for a minute. I think the behavior of judgment is a fascinating human behavior that we can all relate to. And when we think of judgment, we're referring to it within sight of ourselves, which indeed is where judgment comes from. I can't have judgment of others unless I have judgment of self first. And I think that's just an important thing to remember. So when I'm judging others or I'm focused on others, as you said, other focused, which is so true for an anxious attachment style, what's really driving that is the judgment and the criticism of myself, and that's why that so dovetails. So as a human being, I experience judgment when I have a harsh critic internally and it's judging me on, oh, goodness, it could be a myriad of things. I'm going to just pull one tiny little piece out so that we can just see how it works. Let's say I'm a big girl. I'm like six foot and just shy of a couple of hundred pounds. So I'm a big girl. And when I go out in the world, I am towering over most women. And so a judgment of mine from very early on, within sight of myself, is that I'm trying to always look, not now, but sometimes now, I'm trying to fit in. You can't miss me. I've got red hair, big green eyes, and I'm six foot, and I have a very loud voice. And I walk into a room, it's like I'm trying to just sit in the back. And so I have some self judgment about it. And I very much have struggled with body image and those kinds of things, being a woman and wanting to be a feminine woman, et cetera. So when I go out into the world, if I'm in a place where I'm judging myself, what am I going to notice? I'm going to notice all of the little women, all the people who are smaller than me. And that's what I use in my experience to go see stace, better cut back on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You better work out more, you better drink more water. That's the narrative that starts to play in my mind. As I'm noticing in the environment, there's a variety of all kinds of women and men, quite frankly, but I'm picking up on, and my brain is in tune to all the ones that are smaller than me. And then my brain is also going to notice the other side of judgment, which is all the people who are bigger than me. Why? Because it reassures me. Oh, okay. At least I'm not 7ft, right? Okay. Maybe I'm going to be okay. And so that's how judgment works. Whatever I'm judging myself with, I'm going to notice everything that I'm not, which is the others focused. And then I'm going to use the alternative of even more so than me. So if we were to put this in wealth, for example, and I'm beating myself up about not being able to stay within my budget, or yet again, I'm finding myself in credit card debt, I'm going to notice everybody who has a lot of things that I want. And that's what I'm going to be that judges myself harshly with, man, if I could just pull it together, I could do that and wear that and have that and be that. But I'm also going to notice the other side. Whoo. Thank goodness I'm not homeless. Oh, that poor person. She's not that bad. Right? And that's how judgment works in us on any given topic, education, anything that we could criticize ourselves from just to help us see that judgment is actually an internal job. People who say things that are unkind. Right? Well, am I being kind to myself? Does that make me so sick and fired up to my stomach because I spend hours a day doing it within? Is that why it's so intolerable? Right? And then I also seek all the people who are sweet, and that might even irritate me. Like, you're so sweet.

[25:25] Karin: Yuck.

[25:26] Staci: Gross.

[25:30] Karin: Right?

[25:33] Staci: Just so we can have an understanding of that. And as we start to plug it into attachment style, it makes a lot of sense. Right? What is the anxious judging themselves for? Not being enough.

[25:43] Karin: Right. Not being good enough for a relationship. They can't possibly love me because I'm not good enough.

[25:51] Staci: And I'm constantly messing it up, and I can't trust my own decisions. And I'm floating at a tremendous amount of doubt, and I don't know how to see myself through that. So I need this person to reassure me all the time that I've made the right choice, that I'm pretty enough, that I'm good enough, that I'm lovable. It's going to be okay. And at first, the avoidant loves to give that right. It starts out as, yeah, you're beautiful. You're amazing. I love being around you. You're the best thing ever. And as that starts to wane and their fears and insecurities start to pop up, and the anxious fears and insecurities and self judgment goes on steroids. Because, remember, the more you care, the more that's going to flash. Like, the more I want this relationship to work, the more insecure I'm going to feel. Because think about it. We go back to the conversation of judgment. Everything I am is on the line. My physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well being is in it. And anything that somebody can do right, and my partner is going to affect me. And we know this. We just don't talk about it. So I'm all in. We're doing this relationship thing, and the more I care and the more I want it, it's only a matter of time before the insecurities and fear that I feel within sight of me are going to flash no other way around it. It's kind of like a relational rite of passage. We have to get through that and find a way to dance with the fears and insecurities within our relationship, or we're not going to probably last.

[27:22] Karin: Yeah. And so what can people do who are experiencing that right now going, yes, that's my experience. So what do I do with that? How do I not feel so desperate and so self critical?

[27:37] Staci: Well, it's got to start with finding better ways that you can speak to yourself. And that's a lot of the work that you and I do. Right. We call it self love, but really what it is is learning how to validate myself. Right. And that step begins with first, just translating your own thoughts, feelings and emotions into a language that first you can understand. Because if you don't understand it and what's going on and what's coming up for you, and we're kind of dead in the water, I won't know. Your person won't know. You won't know. That's often why we're so focused on others is because I'm avoiding understanding myself. So if I can understand them and understand where they are and figure them out, then it's going to be okay. Right? I can morph myself into becoming what it is they need me to be, and they'll stick around. Problem solved. It's going to be great.

[28:31] Karin: And it can be easier to focus on the other person than focus on myself. That's really hard, right?

[28:38] Staci: It's one of the most courageous things we do as a human being. The turning and facing off with yourself to discover what's in there, to be able to translate those thoughts, feelings and emotions into a language first you can understand. It's the road to freedom. But it's also, in the beginning, terrifying as heck. We usually have to get ourselves in a tremendous amount of emotional pain before I'm willing to go. Okay, I'll do it. I've tried everything else. I'll do it. I'll face off with myself.

[29:11] Karin: Because there are some benefits from being where we are. Right?

[29:16] Staci: Absolutely.

[29:17] Karin: Yeah, absolutely. That self critic really works hard for us to keep us safe in the world.

[29:23] Staci: Yeah. I was just reading or participating in a wonderful piece not to get us off track here at all. Dick Schwartz, who was the creator.

[29:35] Karin: Yeah. I'm trained in.

[29:39] Staci: The realization that actually, the parts that are critical, the parts that do appear sometimes negative in our coping abilities actually have really good news. Right. They're actually a wonderful gift to us. And I think sometimes, as frustrating as our partners can be in this dynamic of anxious, unavoidant, we don't realize what it is they are bringing to the relationship to help me see and understand myself in ways I can't on my own. Therefore, relationships are always going to be something as attractive as a human being. They give us the opportunity to see our fears and insecurities work with them, and we will absolutely create do overs, I call them lovely do overs, where I have as a human being the uncanny ability of redupplicating with uncanny precision emotions that I have yet to heal from or understand or dance with so that I can see and understand myself better. That's what I would call healing. Right. It's the understanding and acceptance of myself and understanding why I've done and behaved. I'm sure you see this in your work, too. When you understand the narrative that's driving the behavior, the behavior always makes sense. It's like, of course you would do that.

[30:52] Karin: Exactly.

[30:53] Staci: If I was living in that space between my own ears.

[30:56] Karin: Right.

[30:57] Staci: Yeah, that makes sense. On the front side, you kind of think, okay, what's going on here? But when you dive in it, it always makes sense. It always absolutely makes 100% sense.

[31:07] Karin: Yeah. And that's a question I often ask my clients. It's like, okay, well, what's the story that you're telling yourself? So let's follow that. And that is such an important part of the work, is understanding why. And I think that really helps the self critic to ease up and realize, oh, okay, yeah. Working with that self critic, realizing that all these different parts have a reason for getting us to do the things that we're doing, understanding that we're not just crazy or stupid or dumb or anything like that. There's a really good reason that we do the things that we do. But understanding that first can help us to then figure out, okay, if that's what's driving me now? How can I try something new?

[31:58] Staci: Yeah, I think it's fascinating with this critic piece when you go back to parent child dynamics, which is where attachment theory comes from, right? Studying children with their parents, and we start to see the different emotions that play out in that attachment style. And as a child, as an infant even, or as a young person who doesn't have any control over the environment or what happens in the household, I find it fascinating that we adapt in our own thinking. If I can't change my parent and I can't change the environment, I have no effect over it. But I'm highly acute and aware that I'm also not capable of surviving on my own. Then what do I do? I turn on myself rather than turn on the partner or the person or the caregiver that I need in order to survive. And so even in that moment in our psyche, emotionally, et cetera, it's actually an ability to survive that's playing out there, right. So I can't turn on my parent. I can't remove myself from this environment. So where do I go as a human being? Oh, it must be me. There must be something wrong with me. There must be something I can do to affect the change in this environment so that I can have what I need to survive. And that's the beginning basis of some of these things that continue to play out. And where are they going to flash in our relationship lives in that do over I just talked about? They're going to show up in our relationships when I care and when I am interdependent on someone else because their actions are going to greatly affect my life on every level. So what flashes again and comes up for me to look at some of those old ways that I coped in the beginning when I felt like I didn't have any control or I felt stuck and didn't know how to operate in that. And that's what anxious, unavoidant is. Or disorganized. It's going back to. Right. They're going to come up. It's okay that they come up. They're going to flash my old coping skills of surviving. And thank goodness we have them because you're here, right? We need to give them the credit that credit is due. You're here today to even have this conversation and to explore this journey. So bravo. That was brilliant on your part. And now we can give it an upgrade. And the more I look at it and the more I understand it and accept it as part of my experience, as a human being, the easier time we have of just giving it an upgrade, it's still going to happen, it's still going to flash. It just doesn't mean you're now a slave to it. And I think that's what makes us feel stuck.

[34:29] Karin: Right.

[34:29] Staci: We feel like we have no effect over this feeling. And so I just react without realizing, no, you're going to feel it, but you don't have to react like you always have.

[34:38] Karin: You have a choice.

[34:38] Staci: Do something different, but only if you're willing to get up close and personal with it. Right.

[34:44] Karin: Yeah.

[34:44] Staci: You can't change something you don't understand. You can't give it an upgrade. And if you got to keep it buried in the backyard again, you're going to react to it. You're going to be subject or slave to it.

[34:56] Karin: Right. You're going to be pulled along by it. But awareness, that's the first step.

[35:01] Staci: Very much so.

[35:03] Karin: I don't have anything to add to that. Well said.

[35:05] Staci: When we were getting ready to record, we were talking about conflict. And in this, you start to see the conflict so much isn't about others. The conflict is actually about the conflict within sight of me. Right. And that's your stuff coming, what creates the conflict.

[35:25] Karin: Right, exactly. One of the things I help my couples do is do a uturn. All right, so what's going on inside of you? Which can really do a lot for helping couples understand the Dynamic that's playing out in the relationship.

[35:42] Staci: Yeah. Something I spend a lot of time with as well, in that vein, is recognize and realize that people are going to do things that are going to fire you up. Right. And it's our partners that get on our last nerve. Right. They have this uncanny ability to fire off stuff inside of me I didn't even know was there. Right. And we can get to a place where I'm, like you said, other focused, and I make it up that if I can just get them to stop or start doing this thing that won't fire that off in me anymore, then we're going to be okay. And if they do this, this and this, then I'm entitled to do this and this and this and this to them. And that's typically how we interact with conflict. Right. So it's kind of like I allow myself in the conflict of their behavior to do all kinds of things that, on the backside, I feel terrible about. Right. As many clients have said to me, this relationship is turning me into a monster of myself. Why? Because I'm allowing myself to behave in ways that are not congruent or in line with the person I want to be. It's because you've done and said these things. Now I'm entitled to do these things. Well, what if we could just not go there and recognize and realize that I don't want to show up ever as a version of myself. I don't want to be that. I want to to the very best of my ability. However this rolls, get to the other side of it and feel good about how I played it. That's our win. Not about getting your person to stop or start, but about feeling good about how you navigated through it on your own accord. And that's going to cause all of us to do what I call emotional push ups, emotionally regulate myself to such a degree that I can navigate through this in a way that at the end, I know I gave it my best shot. I said what I needed to say, I asked for what I needed. And then where I end and you begin becomes exceptionally clear. If I'm in it and I'm adding my own piece of conflict to it, it becomes very, very muddied. And the guilt and shame just crescendos. Right. For both of us and what we have accomplished, there is just more conflict and more pain. More pain, yeah.

[38:05] Karin: And I think that that's a really important piece that I think gets missed for a lot of people, is that self regulation piece when you are triggered, being able to self soothe so that then you can really understand what's going on and be more present and aware and then be able to make that choice rather than getting caught up because your nervous system is activated. And when we're in fight or flight, it's really hard to be thoughtful and use our rational brain and all those things.

[38:41] Staci: When I think sometimes when it comes to conflict, we don't realize we have a brake pedal. Right. All we're all familiar with is a gas pedal. And it's like, the more I spin up, the more I hit the gas pedal. Right. And as I like to say, has that ever gone well even one time for any of us? Could we all just compare notes? Let's think about when it is we start to spin up and things start to escalate. Right? Have we ever gotten to an escalation point where your partner or your friend or your child says to you, aha, I see the light. You are so right. I get your point now. I mean, it's comical.

[39:20] Karin: Yeah. When you yelled at me at that high pitched level, then I got it right.

[39:26] Staci: Then it really sunk in. And it's like it's not worked 100% of the time for 100% of humans, right? But yet, because we don't know what else to do, instead, we continue to go back there and back there and back there thinking, if I just yell a little louder and I get a little more pushy, or I tell you for the 1275th time, then you're going to get it right.

[39:56] Karin: And it's not to. We're laughing, but it's perfectly understandable, given people's histories, their patterns, what triggers them, and that they don't know what else to do.

[40:09] Staci: Well, and I don't know, Karen, maybe we need to come clean. We're laughing because we do it, too. Right?

[40:15] Karin: Thank you for that. Yes. All right. We're human. Oh, yeah.

[40:21] Staci: I'm supposed to be the professional, right?

[40:26] Karin: We are all in it together.

[40:29] Staci: We are all in it together. And so that brake pedal becomes very fundamental. Like the minute you feel yourself going, there would be the easiest time we all have of saying, you know what? I'm going to pause right now. I'm going to come back to this. Let me get clear about what I'm thinking and feeling, and then we can have a conversation about that. And instead of looking at conversations that we're trying to avoid in conflict as a one and done, it's kind of like we wait for the conversation to be put on the table, and then we feel like finally there's the opening that we've been waiting weeks and months for. And then we feel like we've got to handle it right now. And it's a setup. It really is. I want you to think of conversations more like rounds of a workout. Every round counts, right? Every round. You're going to learn something about yourself and your partner and your relationship. And if it takes us 50 rounds or 150 rounds to get some clarity and understanding about a piece of our relationship, that's really challenging for both of us. Take the 150. What's important is that the conversation continues and continues and continues. And the only way it's going to continue is if we can count on each other to say, I'm not in a space to be doing this right now. Right. Because nothing good happens once we hit the gas pedal. And the only way we're going to be able to use the brake pedal is very early on in the conversation.

[41:54] Karin: Yeah.

[41:55] Staci: Because once it's in motion, stopping, as we all know, is exceptionally difficult and highly unlikely.

[42:03] Karin: Yeah. And there's so much we can say about conflict, but I also want to bring it back to attachment and talking a little bit more about the avoidant type. I'd like people to understand a little bit more about what that looks like and why they behave the way they do.

[42:23] Staci: Yeah, avoidance oftentimes because anxious have the physical outward appearance of suffering greatly with their emotions. Right. There's this physical outward expression of the anxious style. And so we, of course, have a lot of empathy, but it's easy to understand because we can see it playing out. And they're very expressive. Typically, too. They're going to be probably the more verbal party in the relationship. And so they're talking and sharing with friends and family and a support system. They're probably going to be the one that's going to reach out and get help and support. Right. With professionals such as ourselves. And so there's this very obvious. I just see it and it's much easier to understand it from that angle. I think avoidance are very misunderstood in that they don't care and that they don't have emotion and emotional pain and suffering around this experience. Instead of expressing it, though, they very much internalize it. So it's a very silent experience for them. And just know that sometimes what hurts the most can't be seen within us as a human being. And that's very much the experience of an avoidance. They're not having a good time either, especially when I care and I love you. And I thought this was going to go much different than where we're finding ourselves in this moment. They're just internalizing it all. You also might see it in explosive behavior where they'll hold it for as long as they possibly can. And then it's going to come out in this outrage or holes being punched in the wall, or it comes out in these very egregious ways. But the sweetheart message to that is I don't want to say anything because when I do, it always comes out wrong. One, two, I don't know. And not had a lot of success in saying what it is I want to say. And we don't realize that that is very much a skill. That is very much something that the more I talk, the easier it is. The easier it is to find the words to use and to go to those places within sight of myself. If I'm just internalizing them, I'm just sitting in it in isolation, which can be a very dangerous place to be. Nonetheless, the emotion is very much spinning. And so they're going to run out of emotional gas pretty quickly just because of all the internalization of this emotional experience that they don't know what to do with. They feel terrible when they have these huge explosions, which are going to be inevitable. It is for any of us. As a human being, I can only hold emotion for so long before there's going to need to be some expression of it. And when it gets egregious like that, we've just simply held onto it too.

[45:12] Karin: Long.

[45:14] Staci: Then they are see, they're the problem, right? That's what's going on. It's their fault. It's easy for us to point fingers at the physical demonstrations that we see without realizing there's a lot of internal suffering that's going on there. So I just want to reassure the anxious that as much as you're struggling, so are they. One is not inferior or superior to the other, but it's just a very similar emotional journey that we are expressing in very polar opposite ways. I think it's important to say that.

[45:48] Karin: One of the things that I hear a lot is that, oh, he was just so narcissistic, he was so toxic, and I think it's overused. And I suspect that sometimes what's really going on is that their partner is just avoidant. So how can people, what's the difference between those two things? Because there is a significant difference, but sometimes they can look the same.

[46:15] Staci: Very much so. Let's talk about narcissism overall. Let's just maybe touch on that for a moment. It is something that we finally gave a name to a certain set of behaviors, and then it was kind of like we all jumped on the bandwagon and went, that's it. That makes so much sense. We've finally been able to categorize. I call it emotional organization.

[46:37] Karin: Making sense of things, right.

[46:40] Staci: Making sense of things. Right. Because emotions can be sometimes nonsensical, and we don't understand what we're thinking or feeling with them. And they can be so fluid and fast moving. And so when we find something that helps us categorize or organize emotional experiences, we love to label them because it helps us make sense and organize them in some kind of a category. Just as we were talking about attachment styles, though, we can all be narcissistic, and I'm sure in our lifetimes we all have been narcissistic, which is I become solely focused on my own emotional needs, and then I'm going to act out, or feel entitled to act out in order to accomplish those. If I was just to kind of boil it down into its very simplistic form, I will allow myself to do many verbal and physical demonstrations of getting that need met. And I know there's going to be a price to be paid, but in my mind and in my narrative, it must be done because I need this. I want this. This is where I want to go. And I have a narrative that entitles me to do that. And sometimes the story of that justification is quite fascinating. And so we probably have all been narcissistic at some point in time in our lives, right?

[48:01] Karin: Teenagers trying to do who are development, it's developmentally appropriate. They are more self focused. But yes, it can come off as.

[48:11] Staci: Very narcissistic when they are and they're so self centered. It's all about them and what they need, and it's very difficult for them to think outside of their lives. That's a great example. That is a great example of that behavior. And so I agree with you. We do overuse it. I think when we feel like we are less than or treated as less than in a relationship or perceive that I'm being treated as a less than, then my automatic reach for in this label is narcissism.

[48:46] Karin: Yeah.

[48:47] Staci: Now there can be a twofold punch to this. Are they narcissistic or am I just not really good at advocating for myself? I've seen that very much in a couple dynamic. Right, where they're labeling their partner as narcissistic. But when you start digging down into the behavior and the dynamic between the couple is, I never speak up, I never say so you're always calling the shots that I feel like I have to go along with because I'm not advocating. I barely have a voice in this conversation. And if we're not careful, we can hold ourselves as a victim there and then label them as a narcissist. And I see that dynamic happen, especially in anxious avoidant attachment styles, because remember, what is the anxious experiencing a tremendous amount of self doubt. And in that self doubt, I'm probably not very good at advocating for myself or telling you what I really would like and need because that's hard for me when I'm doubting myself and I don't give myself enough credit for who I am and what it is I do do. I'm feeling like there's always more I have to do in order to be loved. So when we're coming from that narrative, we often are not very good at advocating for ourselves or truly disclosing what it is I ultimately need to be happy and fulfilled in the relationship to keep life moving. Then it puts somebody else in the position of taking care of all the decisions and calling all the shots and making all the choices, which causes me to look like a what?

[50:21] Karin: And the other thing that comes up for me is that because avoidants don't often feel comfortable talking about emotions, they can look like they're not in touch with their emotions, and above it all, and that there is a power play in between the anxious attachment and the avoidant attachment, where the anxious attachment is always one down, because the avoidant one is really the one calling the shots. And so that power differential can also feel like narcissism. Like they've got all the control and they're not in touch with their emotion. They can't even talk about their emotions. And so that can start to look.

[51:03] Staci: Like narcissism and not to minimize that. I mean, it's real.

[51:09] Karin: Yeah, right.

[51:10] Staci: But as far as being extreme covert narcissism, percentagely speaking, it's probably a lot less than you think.

[51:19] Karin: Yeah. And I think the other important thing is that the avoidant usually really does want the relationship to work. And if you can communicate to it in a way that they can hear it, then they're more willing to work on the relationship, and they do care about the other person.

[51:44] Staci: Some of my most precious memories in the work that I do is with an avoidant who finally admits that they love deeply and they want this to work. I always like to say, look, when there's a crusty exterior, there is usually a very squishy, gooey person on the inside. Otherwise, why the need for the crusty exterior? You wouldn't need it stronger. The armor trying to protect if you weren't trying to protect something. And so those are precious moments and memories for me that are a huge driver in the work that I do, is the person who's feeling misunderstood and mislabeled and misdiagnosed, and nobody understands what's truly going on. Maybe sometimes not even me. I'll be the first to admit I act out, and I'm not handling this well, but I've not found a safe place where I can really open up and explore those things within me. And then when you do, there is the sweetest human in there. They're just precious. They've just not ever had a safe run at interrelating in the relational space. They've always been hurt or mistakenly taken advantage of or negated. So the reason why they're behaving the way that they are as an avoidant, remember, comes from a long line of experiences for themselves. And this is what they've made up they need to do in order to protect themselves. I think sometimes we forget that and we get hyper focused on just the behavior that's presenting today without realizing that came from somewhere. That was what I call that thing I do, that coping thing I do to survive, maybe some pretty challenging stuff. And that was probably genius, as I've already said, like, bravo, you made it. You're here. We can have this conversation, right? We can take another go at this. I think those are things we all need to remember.

[53:45] Karin: What's the pattern that you see between anxious avoidant in their sexual relationship?

[53:54] Staci: The pattern I see is the anxious probably has sex more than they really want to. They feel like they have to in order to keep the relationship good. Over time, that very much backfires because they feel like they've given all of the decision making sexually to the avoidant. So the avoidant is very much in control in regards to how intimacy plays out and what we do and how we embark on it and the frequency, et cetera. And that just adds to the doubt. And then I feel more used. I feel like I don't have a say. I feel like I'm not getting my own sexual needs met and the avoidance just going, I didn't know. I didn't know that's what you were feeling. You've never told me that. And now I'm being demonized as the person who's now insisting that it happened like this. This is the frequency. This is how we do it. This is how it's going down. And you can start to see what I was just talking about a moment ago. Do you have the ability to advocate for yourself? And that's really difficult. If I have a lot of self doubt, I've seen it also go the other direction, where the anxious is begging and pleading for intimacy, and the avoidant doesn't want to get too close because they're having a difficult time emotionally coping and because they're typically the ones that are calling the shots and making a lot of the decisions. They refuse to engage sexually.

[55:22] Karin: Yeah.

[55:23] Staci: Which is just destructive to the anxious. Like, we want to talk about poor gasoline on an anxious attachment.

[55:32] Karin: Yeah. I love that you say that. It really can go either way because I've seen that as well. And so understanding their motivations behind what they're doing, I think, is really important. And, of course, you have someone who's anxious and might be with anyone, and they can feel like sex is like confirmation that everything is okay.

[55:53] Staci: Yes, very much so that I'm still beautiful and wanted and desired. Just recently, I'm thinking of a couple that's coming to mind where that's very much the dynamic. She is desperately trying to figure out how to get her partner to engage sexually with her. And they've had major blow ups about it. And he himself is the avoidant. Shut down. Doesn't really express, very much internalizes his emotions. And they haven't had sex in years because of it. And then he feels terrible. He knows he's not performing and showing up in that way, but he's afraid of getting too close and getting hurt. Right. And this is a way he doesn't want to bond any further sexually until we figure some things out. So there is a sweetheart message there, very much so. Like, I don't want to hurt you and I don't want to mislead you. So, no, I can't go there right now with you. Now that we're on to sex, we've really covered the gamut here today. That's something I'm very passionate about talking about and the reason why. And I know we won't go into that today, but we need to talk about it more. We need to understand and normalize the conversation around sex and intimacy. There's a lot of, even if we're really good at advocating for ourselves in what I call our daily lives, about professionally or taking care of household tasks or just budgeting the money and those kinds of things, we can even get good at advocating for ourselves there. But still, when it comes to sex and intimacy, we're not very good about talking about it and having conversations around it and exploring what works for me and what doesn't work for me. And I just want to highlight here that all the skills we teach in our professions, right, to soothe, to cope, to explore, to express those same skills, very nicely translate into the conversations we need to have around our intimate life, our sex life. And it's going to make your armpit sweat originally, but once you go there, you realize, oh, wow, this is just the same. Wow. Okay. We could be easily talking about the budget or when we're going to paint the house. Yeah.

[58:11] Karin: The more you do it, the easier.

[58:12] Staci: It gets and the less fear there is around it. And fear is what really cripples our intimate lives very much.

[58:20] Karin: Yeah, indeed. So is there something that people listening can walk away with after this conversation? What would that you want that to be for people, especially if they recognize themselves in this conversation as being anxious, as being avoidant?

[58:42] Staci: The first thing that comes to my mind is a quote by Leo Bascalia that so eloquently states what we've talked about and touched on in so many different ways. Most of us are strangers to ourselves, asking other people who are strangers to themselves to love us, and we start to understand the conflict and why we attach the way that we do. So just to highlight the importance of, gosh, I got to get to know myself because that is what I bring to a relationship. Like, you are the gift that you bring to another. Knowing yourself, being yourself, expressing yourself. And that is the greatest filter I can give you to finding and creating that love you say you so desire and, quite frankly, deserve in your heart. And then the second thing I'd want to leave with you is you are human being, and that gives you the dynamic ability to create anything. So please don't let anybody pigeonhole you in regards to an attachment style, a love language, a personality test, those are just things to help us see where you are today. But please know this, you are so much more than any of that. And if you want to take something on and make a change in your life, I want you to remember you have the power to do it. We just have this conversation today so you can see where you are on the map. Please do not forget you are a human being and you have the power to create. So use it. Do something with.

[01:00:18] Karin: Oh, that got me right here. Stacey, thank you. Beautifully said. Powerful.

[01:00:25] Staci: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

[01:00:28] Karin: But there is another important question I have that I ask all my guests. And that is, what role does love play in the work that you do?

[01:00:36] Staci: It's everything. Love is everything. I know that sounds very platitudeish. And now I'm going to get emotional, especially right now in the world. If I can come from a place of love, when it's hard and I'm fired up and I'mired in conflict, it is the only place I can affect change. It is. I have to remember that as I am hurting, so is another. And if I can come from a place of love for myself and for others, believing that, we'll figure this out as we go. There's my most powerful place as a human being. For if I give into hate, if I give into making it up that it's okay to mistreat or make somebody pay. We're all going to pay. We are all going to pay. What am I feeding? I am feeding conflict within side of myself, too, right? So I'm showing up as a version of myself. I do not feel good about. And my psyche, the person in me that holds the seeds of who it is I have the capacity to be, will flash off emotion that hurts in me in a measure to say, what are you doing? This is not who you want to be. Stop it right now. And so you start to see that that's usually what mires our conflict cycle, is me behaving in a way that spikes emotional pain in me. That's me saying, knock it off. This isn't who you want to be. This isn't how you want to show up. This isn't how you want to do it. Love yourself. Love others. Give some grace. Let it go. And then I say, no, because they've done this. I must do this. I must make them pay. That's how I'm going to feel better without realizing, the more I do that, the more emotional pain I create, not only for myself, but for everybody around me. And so you asked me, what is love? Love is everything. Being able to love somebody or at least attempt to stand in that place for yourself is the greatest gift we can give others and ourselves at the same time. The love of self that I don't have to make somebody pay, that I can show up as a version of myself that I choose to be, regardless of how you show up, is love in its finest form. And so it's everything.

[01:03:01] Karin: Thank you so much.

[01:03:04] Staci: Yeah, truly my pleasure.

[01:03:05] Karin: I really hope that people stayed to the end of this episode and heard all of that. So important. Stacey, I appreciate you so much and I want to make sure that people know how they can learn more about you and your podcast.

[01:03:22] Staci: Everything you could possibly ever want to know and more is on my website@stacybartley.com. My podcast is there. Free resources, are there access to my book, to my conversation? Everything, and a history of myself. If you wanted to know more about me, like I said, you can find more out there than you'd probably care to know.

[01:03:49] Karin: This has been such a gift to be able to spend another hour plus with you. So thank you. I appreciate you.

[01:03:57] Staci: Bye bye for now. Bye.

[01:03:58] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram where I'm the love and connection coach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Ali Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.