All Creatures Great and Small with Pangolin Podcast Host Jack Baker | S2E33

Greetings, troop! Welcome back to Talking Apes Season 3. We're kicking off 2024 with a thought-provoking episode featuring Kathayoon Khalil, conservation psychologist and education professional with a rich background spanning zoos, aquariums, museums, and nature centers.

This week, our chat explores:

The Power of Empathy  – How it shapes our attitudes towards animals and influences our actions. Kathayoon helps us understand how empathy can be a dynamic tool for positive conservation action.

Anthropomorphism Pros and Cons - We navigate the tricky terrain of storytelling, discussing the dangers of anthropomorphism and how narratives can drive empathy for some animals while alienating others.

Decolonizing Conservation - Emphasizing the importance of diverse cultural voices and economic considerations, Kathayoon advocates for a holistic approach to conservation.

Individual Action - Kathayoon asserts that the collective environmental movement can only be driven by individual action - we can all take responsible steps toward reducing our carbon footprints.

Explore Further:
The AZA's Educational Research and Evaluation Initiative
Project Dragonfly at Miami University of Ohio
Oregon Fish and Wildlife Commission

Your actions matter! Tune in now to learn more about conservation action!

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
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Evolution - Who are we, where did we begin? The evolution of us and apes like us - gorillas, chimps, bonobos, and orangutans - likely began long before any of us resembled the apes of today. For Dr. Sergio Almécija that journey begins in the Miocene some 5-23 million years ago.

Dr. Sergio Almécija studies the evolution of humans alongside that of our living closest relatives, the apes. Modern apes and humans constitute a relict of a once highly diversified group. During the Miocene in Africa, Europe, and Asia, there was a greater diversity of apes that did not resemble or move around like any primates alive today. It is from a Miocene ape that both modern chimpanzees and hominins (the human lineage) evolved. Thus, only by studying the evolution of apes and their environment combined with available early hominins will we be able to fully understand human origins.

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
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Beyond Biology: Primate Pelage, Racism, and Academic Triumphs

Colour and pattern of hair and skin play a powerful role in how primates interpret and interact with others and the world.  Primates are the most colourful and pelage-diverse of all mammals.

In this episode, we dive into the vibrant world of non-human primate hair and skin colour with passionate Ph.D. student at the University of of Massachusetts Amherst, Thomas Wilson. Thomas explores the still-emerging and complex field of understanding the role, evolution, and functionality of fur colour and patterns among our primate cousins.

Why do primates have coloured hair?
What's the reason for the vast array of hues seen in primate species?
How does hair colouration occur?
Why does hair turn grey?

The second part of the episode takes a poignant turn as we explore an open letter penned by Thomas, titled 'Sincerely, a Black Primatologist: An open letter to biological anthropologists' highlighting the experiences of a black primatologist.' Thomas bravely shares the challenges he has faced while navigating the historically problematic and racist landscape of biological anthropology and primatology.

In the letter, Thomas reflects on the lingering consequences of a field entrenched in a troubling past. As a black, cis-queer student, he grapples with the haunting irony of studying bones that may have originated from slaves or were wrongfully acquired. The conversation takes a raw and honest look at the struggles Thomas faced, including the hurtful label 'a monkey studying monkeys' that a fellow student cast upon him, and the disheartening lack of support from his professors.

Thomas sheds light on the stark reality that not many people of colour enter the field of anthropology due to a historical lack of trust and financial barriers. However, he is determined to be part of a transformative generation, actively engaging in online communities and projects that provide support for minority groups in the field.

As we listen to Thomas's story, we are challenged to confront the uncomfortable truths within the field of primatology. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the need for inclusivity, diversity, and change in a discipline that should embrace all voices and experiences.

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
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On this week's episode of Talking Apes Podcast, we're joined by two extraordinary scientists, Dr Cleve Hicks and Toni Romani, as they lead us into the enigmatic world of the Bili-Ape and beyond.

Few people have ventured as far and deep into the Congo's dark and secretive forests as Dr Cleve Hicks. Primatologist and associate professor at the University of Warsaw, Cleve takes us back to his thrilling early 2000s expedition in search of the mysterious Bili-Ape; a creature once rumoured to be an amalgamation of chimp and gorilla, displaying astonishing bipedal abilities and fearsome strength.

Is it a missing link, a hybrid, or an entirely new species? Cleve and his team ventured into the wilderness with no clear expectations, ready to unearth incredible discoveries concealed beneath the jungle canopy.

Dr Hicks and Toni Romani's work in western Uganda also opens up a world of secrets. From chimpanzee ground nests hidden on the dense forest floor, to the fascinating and diverse realm of ape tool 'culture'.

Join us as Cleve and Toni guide us through some of their findings:

Ground-nesting chimps
Did you know that chimps build nest-like beds in the trees every night? During their expedition, Toni and Cleve began to notice an astonishing percentage of chimp nests down on the ground. Why? And does this discovery have implications for our understanding of human evolution, offering clues about our own sleeping habits from the past? 

Elaborate tool-use traditions amongst wild chimp populations
Chimps exhibit a remarkably diverse array of tool-use practises. From using sets of sticks in a sequence to access honey in beehives to unique pounding, levering, and probing techniques, the world of ape tool culture is more rich and diverse than we previously thought.

The spread of unique behavioural practises making up 'cultural realms'
Can the notion of culture truly extend to chimps?  Cleve reveals how behavioural traits and tool-use traditions differ vastly across chimp groups and also cluster, alluding to the idea of 'cultural realms', and mirroring how cultures are dispersed and divided across our own Homo sapien world.  Can understanding these behavioural traits in  our closest cousins shed light on our own ancient history and the tools and traditions of early hominins?
 
CLICK HERE TO READ: Ground Nesting Chimps Hold Lessons for Conservation and for Human Evolution

Click here to watch Cleve's Ted Talk on chimp culture in the Congo Basin

Scroll down for photos and videos. 

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
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 Unraveling the Meaty Mysteries of Human Evolution with Dr. Briana Pobiner

This week on Talking Apes we journey back in time to explore our ancestral roots with Dr. Briana Pobiner. As a distinguished paleoanthropologist, Dr. Pobiner delves deep into the evolution of the human diet and the pivotal role meat played in our development as a species.

Briana, who leads the Smithsonian Human Origins education and outreach initiatives, offers a unique perspective on our shared history with other apes and our progression towards becoming Homo sapiens.  

This week we're stepping away from our usual focus on modern apes to explore the dietary habits of our ancient ancestors with Briana as our amazing guide on some key topics:

The Myth of Linearity: Dr. Pobiner shatters the common misconception that human evolution is a linear progression from chimpanzees. Instead, she unveils the intricate web of evolutionary branches that make up our family tree.

The 2% Difference: Dive deep into the significance of the mere 2% difference in DNA that separates us from our closest living relatives. Discover how this small genetic gap holds significance to our unique journey.

'The cool thing about human bodies is we’re this archive of evolution and we share a lot of that evolutionary history with our closest living relatives.' - Dr Pobiner

Meat-Eating in Prehistory: Explore Dr. Pobiner's research spanning up to 2.5 million years ago, focusing on the pivotal role of meat in early human diets. Learn how she deciphers clues in fossilized bones and identifies tooth and butchery marks to reveal the stone tools our ancestors used to process their food and other ideas about how they lived.

Coexisting Hominids: Delve into the intriguing story of how multiple species of humans (hominids) lived concurrently, painting a complex picture of our ancient world.

‘This is actually a very weird time in human evolution because there’s only one type of human on the planet - through most of our evolutionary history there have been multiple lineages, multiple different species of hominids (early humans) that co-existed at the same time - that’s something to give us pause.’ - Dr Pobiner

Scavenging and Survival: Uncover the theory that early humans might have survived by scavenging meat left behind by carnivores.

Modern Paleo Diets: Dr. Pobiner shares her insights on modern paleo diets, offering a bridge between our ancestral past and present dietary trends.

Join us as we journey through time, exploring the rich tapestry of human evolution! This episode promises to leave you with a newfound appreciation for the intricacies of our evolutionary heritage (and maybe a rumbling tummy)!

Click here to visit the Smithsonian's Human Origins Website

Click here to read Briana's articles on human evolution

Click here to see a fascinating diagram depicting human evolution

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
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Twitter: @talking_apes
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A World Gorilla Day Special Exploring the Fate of the Colossal Grauer's Gorillas

Situated on the eastern edge of the expansive Congo Basin in the Democratic Republic of Congo, GRACE  holds the unique distinction of being the world's sole sanctuary for Grauer's gorillas.

The largest primates on our planet, yet the least known of the gorilla species, these giants are facing a dire crisis as their numbers have plummeted drastically over the past two decades. Only 6,800 individuals now remain.

'For every baby gorilla that comes to the sanctuary, we know the family was most likely killed.'

In this episode of Talking Apes, GRACE's Programs Director, Katie Fawcett, reveals the  complexities of working in a region historically marred by devastating conflicts. The difficulty of reaching these remote gorilla territories has hampered research, conservation, and tourism efforts over the years, leaving these magnificent creatures teetering on the brink of extinction.

'GRACE lies at the start of the Congo Basin - I find that wildly exciting. But access to work in that area has been very challenging.'

Can the elusive Grauer's endure the challenges of the next decade and beyond? There is hope. Throughout our conversation, Katie reveals the remarkable achievements of GRACE. Learn about their efforts in building trust with local communities and establishing a resilient Congolese team, all working toward a vision of sustainable community-led conservation.
 
'Our goal is to come out with a model of community led conservation - where the forests are protected, the gorillas are protected, and the people are benefitting.'

- Dr Katie Fawcett

Click here to visit the GRACE website.

Click here to see GRACE's 14 beautiful gorilla inhabitants.

Click HERE to support our show with Talking Apes Merch. 

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
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Diana Kanweri closes not only our special Making of Chimp Empire series, but Season 2 of Talking Apes. The talented Ugandan chimpanzee field guide and camera operator was the first ever Ugandan woman to work on the Ngogo Chimp Project and made an invaluable contribution to the Netflix docuseries. Diana's expertise in navigating the Ugandan wilderness and her keen eye for capturing stunning shots made her an integral part of the filmmaking team behind Chimp Empire.

During her appearance on the podcast, Diana shared her experiences and the challenges she faced while working on the series. Her deep connection to the local environment and her understanding of the chimpanzees' behavior allowed her to capture some of the most impactful and memorable shots of the entire series. Her ability to anticipate and frame key moments in the chimpanzees' lives added an extra layer of visual storytelling to Chimp Empire.

‘I know chimps better than I know my own family. I’m happy, and I think in a way I owe that to them.’ 

Director of Photography. Ben Sadd, in our conversation for Talking Apes, himself acknowledged Diana's remarkable talent, praising her for capturing shots that had a profound impact on the viewers. Her camera work not only showcased the beauty and majesty of the Ngogo chimpanzees but also provided an intimate window into their daily lives, drawing audiences into their world.

‘A chimp saved me life from a large elephant coming up behind me. He warned me and waited for me to run away with him. I couldn’t believe a chimp saved my life.’ 

Diana's contribution to Chimp Empire went beyond her technical skills as a camera operator. Her presence in the Ugandan wilderness and her understanding of the local ecosystem brought authenticity and depth to the documentary series. By capturing the essence of the chimpanzees' natural habitat, Diana's footage added a sense of place and context, enhancing the overall storytelling of the series.

As a field guide and camera operator, Diana played an instrumental role in bringing the wonders of the Ngogo chimpanzees to audiences around the world. Her skillful cinematography and her deep connection to the park and its wildlife allowed viewers to witness the chimpanzees' lives with a sense of intimacy and awe. 

This podcast contains spoilers and we recommend that listeners watch the series on Netflix before listening. 

Netflix theme, and Chimp Empire intro, narration and music, used by permission and under license from Netflix, for use in GLOBIO's Talking Apes four-part podcast series The Making Of - Chimp Empire - Behind The Scenes.

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
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‘When I arrived at Ngogo, it didn’t take me long to figure out this place was unusual.’ 

For the second installment of our Making of Chimp Empire Series, we were privileged to have the esteemed Professor John Mitani as a guest on Talking Apes. John shared intimate stories about his extraordinary lifetime of work studying the Ngogo chimpanzees and his latest adventure serving as a scientific adviser to the team of filmmakers working on the  hit Netflix docuseries. 

‘The Ngogo chimps have been filmed many times by many people - but nothing like this.’

During our chat, John spoke passionately about his deep connection with the Ngogo chimps owed to his decades-spanning research efforts. His extensive knowledge and expertise in the field of primatology added a profound layer of understanding to the documentary series. As the scientific adviser to the filmmakers, he played a pivotal role in ensuring accuracy and authenticity in the portrayal of chimpanzee behavior and social dynamics.

One remarkable aspect of Professor Mitani's relationship with the director, James Reed, was their blossoming friendship. Through their shared passion for chimpanzees, a bond was formed that transcended the boundaries of their respective disciplines. James recognized the importance of including the scientific community in the filmmaking process and, in doing so, granted Professor Mitani unprecedented levels of creative access. This collaboration between a scientist and a filmmaker brought a unique perspective to Chimp Empire, combining scientific rigor with compelling storytelling.

 ‘The chimps accept our presence. I have a hard time wrapping my head around why, but I'm grateful for it.’ 

By granting Professor Mitani a significant role in the making of Chimp Empire, James elevated the documentary series beyond a mere visual spectacle. The integration of scientific expertise added depth and credibility to the project, ensuring that the behaviors and social dynamics of the Ngogo chimpanzees were accurately portrayed. John told us that this level of collaboration between scientists and filmmakers at Ngogo is not commonplace, making Chimp Empire a truly exceptional exploration of chimp life. 

John will be joining us again on Season 3 of Talking Apes Podcast to talk about his astounding career studying chimpanzee society with the Ngogo Chimpanzee Project. Coming Autumn 2023. 

Click HERE to read more about how the chimps are doing NOW, which was put together with John’s help. 

Click HERE to watch a short behind-the-scenes video of Chimp Empire featuring John.

This podcast contains spoilers and we recommend that listeners watch the series on Netflix before listening. 

Netflix theme, and Chimp Empire

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
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‘Chimpanzees are just incredibly special animals and I think what makes them so unique is their individuality. It’s such a privilege to be able to spend so much time with them.’

The third installation going behind-the-scenes of Chimp Empire in our four-part series celebrating World Chimp Day 2023, featuring immensely talented Director of Photography, Benjamin Sadd. Ben played a crucial role in the creation of the remarkable Netflix docuseries. His passion for wildlife filmmaking and his love for capturing the lives of chimpanzees shines through his work. His dedication to his craft and his genuine affection for these incredible creatures were evident throughout the conversation.

During our discussion, Ben shared his journey of falling in love with filming chimps. His deep connection with these animals goes beyond the technical aspects of cinematography. Ben expressed a personal attachment to the chimpanzees he encountered during the filming of Chimp Empire. His desire to return to Ngogo forest reflects his genuine longing to reconnect with the individuals he has come to know and document.

‘When you’re running through the forest trying to keep up with these chimpanzees, you feel like you’re on their team. You’re rooting for them.’ 

Ben’s commitment to capturing the essence of chimpanzees on film is evident in the stunning visuals of Chimp Empire. His ability to immerse the audience in the world of these intelligent and social creatures is a testament to his skill and artistry as a director of photography. The depth of his connection with the chimpanzees and his desire to share their stories with the world truly sets him apart as a remarkable filmmaker in the wildlife genre.

Click here to visit Ben’s website. 

This podcast contains spoilers and we recommend that listeners watch the series on Netflix before listening. 

Netflix theme, and Chimp Empire intro, narration and music, used by permission and under license from Netflix, for use in GLOBIO's Talking Apes four-part podcast series The Making Of - Chimp Empire - Behind The Scenes.

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
Instagram: @talkingapes_podcast
Twitter: @talking_apes
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‘We didn’t decide what we wanted the story to be. We wanted the chimps to tell their story, and document that with the highest level of authenticity.’ 

Director James Reed is a visionary filmmaker whose work has captivated audiences around the world. His 2023 Netflix docuseries, Chimp Empire, showcases his remarkable storytelling abilities and his dedication to shedding light on the lives of chimpanzees. This groundbreaking series provides a rare and intimate glimpse into the complex social dynamics and behaviors of these incredible creatures, unraveling the intricate tapestry of their lives in a way that is both educational and emotionally resonant.

‘Your audience is human, so you’re bridging a gap. You’re connecting a human audience to an animal story.’

James is one of four guests joining us on Talking Apes to celebrate World Chimpanzee Day on July 14th with a behind-the-scenes look at The Making of Chimp Empire. During our conversation, James provided insights into the challenges and joys of capturing the chimpanzees' lives on camera. His passion for the subject matter was evident as he discussed the extensive research and patience required to portray these animals' behaviors accurately. He highlighted the importance of storytelling as a means to bridge the gap between humans and chimpanzees, fostering a deeper understanding of our shared evolutionary journey.

‘What’s really interesting are the comments from people who normally aren’t into natural history who say they are blown away by the complexities and similarities and fascination of these animals. That feels like a huge achievement.’ 

As a director, James and his filmmaking crew have elevated the art of nature documentaries, combining stunning cinematography, immersive storytelling, and scientific accuracy to create a powerful viewing experience. Chimp Empire serves as a testament to the profound impact that media can have in fostering a deeper connection between humans and the animal kingdom.

James also co-directed the oscar-winning My Octopus Teacher, directed Rise of The Warrior Apes, and worked as a producer on Disney’s Chimpanzee. 

Click HERE to visit James Reed’s production company, Underdog Films

Official Netflix clip: The Death of Pork Pie

This podcast contains spoilers and we recommend that listeners watch the series on Netflix before listening. 

Netflix theme, and Chimp Empire intro, narration and music, used by permission and under license from Netflix, for use in GLOBIO's Talking Apes four-part podcast series The Making Of - Chimp Empire - Behind Th

Talking Apes is an initiative of the nonprofit GLOBIO.
Official website: talkingapes.org
Instagram: @talkingapes_podcast
Twitter: @talking_apes
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