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    Argo’s CEO explains why its fleet of self-driving taxis won’t be all-electric (at first)

    enFebruary 25, 2020

    Podcast Summary

    • Exploring the Future of Business and TechnologyFrom self-driving cars to innovative documentaries, the future is filled with possibilities. Companies like Deloitte and Argo AI are leading the charge, while individuals like Chabari Graham and Dwayne W. Wright continue to make an impact.

      The future holds exciting possibilities, whether it's building a vision for tomorrow with Deloitte's business acumen and innovative technology or showcasing cultural phenomena through documentaries like Art Beets and Lyrics. In the realm of technology, self-driving cars are on the horizon, but their implementation remains a complex and evolving process. Brian Celesky, CEO of Argo AI, shares insights into the industry, acknowledging the challenges and the shift from "if" to "when" in terms of self-driving cars becoming a reality. Meanwhile, individuals like Chabari Graham and Dwayne W. Wright continue to make an impact through their creative pursuits, shaping their communities and inspiring thousands.

    • Ford's investment impacted Fargo's introduction and growthFord's investment brought attention, recruiting, and partnerships to Fargo, enabling them to focus on urban cores and complex scenes with real-time perception using multiple sensors

      Fargo's public introduction was significantly impacted by Ford's investment, which brought attention to the company and helped with recruiting and partnerships. Fargo's approach focuses on urban cores, where complexity is high, and they prioritize hardware that allows the vehicle to perceive its environment in real-time. The robotics system is tightly coupled, meaning all components must work optimally for successful operation. Fargo uses multiple sensor types, including cameras, radar, and LiDAR, to interpret complex scenes and navigate safely. The investment from Ford provided stability and enabled the company to make rapid progress in building their product. Fargo's focus on urban cores and complex scenes sets them apart from other companies, requiring precise and acute perception of the environment to navigate safely.

    • Handling adverse weather and edge cases in self-driving carsSelf-driving cars aim to reduce human error and optimize city traffic flow, but face challenges in handling adverse weather and edge cases. Advancements in hardware and software technology are needed to ensure safer and more efficient transportation.

      Self-driving cars are making progress but still face challenges, particularly in handling adverse weather conditions and edge cases that occur more frequently than expected. The ultimate goal is to create a safer and more efficient transportation system, with self-driving cars reducing human error and optimizing city traffic flow. However, solving these challenges will require advancements in both hardware and software technology. While safety is a primary motivation, the potential benefits for cities experiencing congestion and the desire for personalized transportation experiences are also significant.

    • Revolutionizing city landscapes with autonomous vehiclesAutonomous vehicles could free up real estate used for parking and repurpose it, but this transformation will take time and require a larger penetration of autonomous vehicles in city fleets. Encouraging shared fleets and public transportation can help reduce the number of cars in congested areas.

      Autonomous vehicles have the potential to revolutionize city landscapes and reduce traffic congestion by more intelligently routing vehicles and creating shared systems. This could free up significant real estate currently used for parking and repurpose it for other uses like parks or affordable housing. However, this transformation will take time and require a larger penetration of autonomous vehicles in city fleets. It's important to note that more vehicles are not the solution to city problems and encouraging the use of shared fleets and public transportation can help reduce the number of cars in congested areas. City leaders are focused on maintaining existing infrastructure and cannot solve all transportation issues at once, so finding ways to reduce the number of vehicles and use road space more efficiently is crucial. Eventually, programming autonomous vehicles to go different ways to reduce overall congestion could be a solution, but it will require a significant fleet size and cooperation from various companies and investors.

    • Cities shaping the future of autonomous vehiclesCities are actively engaging with AV developers to establish standards for data sharing and traffic control, with a potential model resembling the scooter industry's approach.

      The deployment of autonomous vehicles (AVs) in cities raises complex issues related to traffic control systems, data sharing, and privacy. Cities are playing a significant role in shaping the future of AVs, as they will have access to a wealth of data about the movement of objects in their jurisdiction. Companies developing AVs need to engage with cities and work towards establishing standards for data sharing and traffic control. The model for data sharing and control may resemble the current approach seen in the scooter industry, with cities playing an active role. The transition to autonomous vehicles is not a binary switch event, but a staged process with multiple phases, involving the gradual reduction of human oversight in the vehicles. Safety remains a top priority, and companies must build trust with consumers and communities over a long period of time.

    • City-by-city approach to launching autonomous vehiclesCruise prioritizes community engagement and gradual expansion in each city to gather valuable data and insights, ensuring a successful and sustainable launch at scale.

      Cruise is focusing on a city-by-city approach to launching its autonomous vehicles, prioritizing community engagement and learning from each location to build a scalable system. Cruise is operating in multiple cities, including DC, Miami, and Austin, and plans to expand gradually while engaging local workforces and leaders to develop a playbook for each city's unique needs. This approach allows Cruise to gather valuable data and insights, ensuring a successful and sustainable launch at scale. Despite media hype suggesting an imminent mass rollout, Cruise recognizes the importance of a measured and methodical approach to introducing autonomous vehicles to the public.

    • The gradual transformation of cities with self-driving vehiclesSelf-driving technology is progressing, improving safety and urban mobility, and transforming city infrastructure with potential benefits like efficient traffic management and serving underserved areas.

      The future of self-driving technology is gradual but promising, with companies taking both the big leap and iterative approaches. While the iterative approach improves safety and driver capabilities, the ultimate goal is the complete transformation of cities with self-driving vehicles. This transformation can lead to more efficient traffic management, easier urban mobility, and serving underserved areas. Although the exact timeline is uncertain, the potential impact of autonomous vehicles on city infrastructure is significant and worth the investment. In the meantime, efforts should be made to make cars safer and improve the overall ecosystem.

    • Transitioning to sustainable transportation: Balancing the bridge with electric vehiclesLong-term commitment required, hybrids as bridge solution, considering business case, environmental impact, overall timeline, addressing climate change, and continuous innovation.

      The transition towards sustainable and safe transportation involves a long-term commitment and a balanced approach. While the ultimate goal is to fully embrace electric vehicles, hybrids can serve as a bridge solution in the near term due to the complex economics and limitations of battery technology. It's essential to consider the business case, the environmental impact, and the overall timeline for this transformation. The speakers emphasized the importance of working on various modes of transportation and making them as safe as possible, as changes in transportation can take years to implement due to the significant capital investment and validation processes involved. Additionally, addressing climate change and reducing emissions from the transportation sector is crucial, and the industry must continue to innovate and adapt to meet these challenges.

    • Ensuring redundancy and fault-tolerance in self-driving vehiclesTo ensure safe operation of self-driving vehicles, redundant and fault-tolerant braking and steering systems are crucial. Older vehicles may require additional inverters to power electronics, but new sensing technologies are being explored to enhance safety and redundancy.

      When adding self-driving systems to existing vehicles, ensuring a redundant and fault-tolerant braking and steering system is crucial. This means that even if an electronic controller fails, the vehicle can still brake and steer. While the type of engine (ice engine or electric) does not significantly change the design, adding an inverter to power the electronics in older vehicles can lead to issues like melting wiring harnesses. The current hardware suite for self-driving cars includes cameras, radar, and LiDAR, which form the "holy trinity" due to their cost-effectiveness and ability to meet functional safety requirements at volume. However, researchers and developers are continuously exploring new sensing technologies that could potentially enhance safety and redundancy in self-driving vehicles.

    • Challenges in developing advanced sensors for autonomous vehiclesHigh costs, calibration issues, and long development timelines limit the progress of autonomous vehicle industry, creating tension between cost reduction and technology investment.

      The development and implementation of advanced sensors and technologies for autonomous vehicles, such as thermal imaging cameras, face significant challenges including high costs, calibration issues, and long development timelines. These factors limit the progress of the industry and create tension between the goal of reducing costs and the need to invest in new technologies. Companies like Waymo and Cruise are working on these issues, but the tight vendor ecosystem and focus on driver assistance systems mean that resources are limited for long-term autonomous vehicle development. Additionally, traditional car manufacturers like Ford and VW, who sell a large number of cars with internal combustion engines, face disruption from the vision of urban mobility through ride-sharing fleets. The conversations between these companies and autonomous vehicle tech firms are likely straightforward, acknowledging the challenges and potential disruption to their businesses.

    • The future of urban mobility: shared, autonomous, electric vehiclesTo make shared, autonomous, electric vehicles viable, automakers must focus on efficient designs, autonomy, and electrification. Human nature makes sharing less appealing, even with competitive pricing, but autonomous vehicles may solve this issue. Significant investment in research and development is required to create a viable business model.

      The future of urban mobility lies in shared, autonomous, electric vehicles. Manhattan's high parking fees and the challenges of personal car ownership in cities are pushing the shift towards shared mobility services. However, the economics of these services have been a challenge due to the need for a large supply of drivers and the expensive development of autonomous technology. To make shared services viable, automakers need to focus on efficient vehicle designs, autonomy, and electrification. The lessons from ride-hailing companies' attempts at shared services, such as Uber Pool and Lyft Carpool, suggest that human nature makes sharing less appealing, even with competitive pricing. Autonomous vehicles may solve this issue by eliminating the need for drivers and reducing costs, but it requires significant investment in research and development. Consolidation in the industry may occur as the cost of building autonomous technology becomes unsustainable for individual companies. Ultimately, the successful implementation of shared, autonomous, electric vehicles will depend on overcoming these economic challenges and creating a viable business model.

    • Navigating global growth and public skepticism in ride-hailing and self-driving carsCEOs like Tekedar Artis of Waymo dedicate time to community outreach and education to build trust and explain advantages of autonomous vehicles, addressing public skepticism in ride-hailing and self-driving cars industry.

      Ride-hailing companies like Waymo face unique challenges as they navigate the intersection of expanding their business globally while dealing with public skepticism and competition, particularly in the realm of self-driving cars. These companies must find a balance between growth and profitability, and also work to build trust with the public through education and transparency. Waymo's CEO, Tekedar Artis, shared that he dedicates significant time to outreach and engagement with communities, recognizing the importance of building trust and explaining the advantages of autonomous vehicle technology. The skepticism surrounding self-driving cars is not universal, but rather concentrated in certain areas, and companies must address it head-on to move the industry forward. Additionally, CEOs in this space must make time for personal engagement and decision-making amidst their busy schedules.

    • Effective time management through setting broad schedules and delegating tasksSetting high-level goals and delegating tasks allows individuals to focus on strengths and maintain productivity. Embrace context shifts and recognize the value of each task.

      Effective time management involves setting a broad schedule and allowing team members to handle the details. This approach allows individuals to focus on their strengths and maintain productivity. The speaker, Brian Selassie, shared his personal method of managing his schedule like a map, setting high-level goals and letting his team handle the specifics. He also emphasized the importance of embracing context shifts and recognizing the value of each task, no matter how small. Selassie also discussed the No Parking Podcast and their upcoming projects with Ford, expanding in cities, and the upcoming documentary "Art Beets and Lyrics." Overall, the conversation highlighted the importance of discipline, delegation, and adapting to different contexts in achieving success.

    • A look into AB&L's milestone tour and their partnership with Jack DanielsThe documentary follows AB&L's 20th anniversary tour, featuring Jack Daniels partnership for an exciting experience for fans

      The documentary "AB&L's 20th Anniversary Tour" showcases the journey of Jabbar and other artists as they prepare for their milestone tour, drawing in massive crowds at each performance. This inspiring content is now available to stream on Hulu. Additionally, the documentary features a mention of Jack Daniels and its Tennessee Honey variant, which holds a 35% alcohol by volume. Please remember to drink responsibly. Jack Daniels and Tennessee Honey are registered trademarks, and all rights are reserved for the year 2024. This partnership between music and spirits adds an extra layer of excitement to the tour, making it a must-watch for fans.

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    Recorded on Tuesday, January 17, 2023

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    About The Road to Autonomy

    The Road to Autonomy® is a leading source of data, insight and commentary on autonomous vehicles/trucks and the emerging autonomy economy™. The company has two businesses: The Road to Autonomy Indices, with Standard and Poor’s Dow Jones Indices as the custom calculation agent; Media, which includes The Road to Autonomy podcast and This Week in The Autonomy Economy newsletter.

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    We did see a difference. We saw that there were specific economic pain points in trucking. Robotaxis were solving a problem that didn't appear to exist.

    It was a fantasy, it was science fiction. It was a future were cities did not have to have individually owned cars. Where parking issues would be resolved. This is a grand vision without clear economic drivers. - Chuck Price, Chief Product Officer, TuSimple

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    I do not believe there is such a thing as a universal driver. It's a marketing term. - Chuck Price, Chief Product Officer, TuSimple

    Wrapping up the conversation around the economics of self-driving trucks and why the universal driver is not the correct approach, the conversation shifts to TuSimple's culture of safety and innovation.

    TuSimple has a corporate culture of safety which they call 'SafeGuard". SafeGuard applies to every single employee in the company no matter what their job function or title is. From the individuals working on the trucks to the engineers writing the code to the executives leading corporate strategy, each and every employee is measured on their contribution to safety.

    What Did You Do To Contribute to Safety? - Chuck Price, Chief Product Officer, TuSimple

    Safety is built into every aspect of what the company does, from the office to the depots to the on-road deployments. Drivers and safety engineers (Left and Right Seaters) go through six months of formal training before they are even able to touch the autonomy in the truck. Each and every safety driver goes through a drug test prior to being allowed in the vehicle.

    TuSimple treats it's drivers as Blue Angels as the company requires them to operate at the highest ability at all-times. When drivers and safety engineers leave the depot, they are monitored in real-time with in-cabin monitoring and drive cams to ensure the highest level of safety.

    The culture of safety and innovation is attracting partners such as UPS, Penske, U.S. Xpress, and McLane Company Inc. to work with TuSimple. As TuSimple scales, the company is working with Navistar to develop SAE Level 4 self-driving trucks at the factory which are safety certified.

    Rounding out the conversation, Grayson and Chuck talk about the economics of self-driving trucks and how TuSimple Self-Driving Trucks can show an ROI after the first 24 months of purchase. 


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    Recorded on Tuesday, September 8, 2020

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    Episode 180 | The Rise and Fall of Digital Freight Brokerages and the Growth of Autonomous Trucking, A Conversation with Timothy Dooner, WHAT THE TRUCK?!?

    Episode 180 | The Rise and Fall of Digital Freight Brokerages and the Growth of Autonomous Trucking, A Conversation with Timothy Dooner, WHAT THE TRUCK?!?

    Timothy Dooner, Host, WHAT THE TRUCK?!?, joined Grayson Brulte on The Road to Autonomy podcast to discus the rise and fall of digital freight brokerages and the growth of autonomous trucking

    The conversation begins with Dooner discussing his outlook for the freight market.

    There is 8. 1% less brokerages than there were a year ago at the start of this year. But there’s still 17% more brokerages than we started at the pandemic. Everyone’s been waiting for not just volumes to go up, but the way freight works, it’s volume plus capacity. They’ve been waiting for the capacity to go down. Volumes are looking a little bit better. Things are receding and this year I’m hearing a lot more optimism. – Timothy Dooner

    The optimism is being shared by Walmart as there are rumors circulating that Walmart is looking to develop a digital freight brokerage. Since Walmart operates their own fleet, they have a unique data set that could potentially help them leapfrog the competition when and if they are introduce a digital freight brokerage service. 

    The freight market is currently turbulent as the demand for freight and the capacity to haul the freight are not in sync. Then there is the California electric truck mandate which will ultimately end up increasing the costs to ship freight, hurting both the carriers and the consumer. Could these mandates help to accelerate the adoption of autonomous truck as they are cheaper to operate? 

    It’s possible and as we are seeing in California, autonomous vehicle technology is not always welcome. in San Francisco vandals set fire to a Waymo autonomous vehicle with a firework, burning the vehicle to the ground. If the regulatory environment in California eventually allows autonomous trucks to operate, will similar vandals also try to cause damage to autonomous trucks? 

    Autonomous trucking is going to play a major role in the future of trucking and the global economy. As the technology is developed different business models are going to come to fruition and one of those is the licensing model. Kodiak has the potential to license their SensorPods technology, creating a lucrative revenue stream as they develop their autonomous trucking platform. This is in addition to their growing defense business.

    Then there is Uber. Uber has investments in Aurora and Waabi, and has the Uber Freight division. Yet they do not operate an autonomous trucking fleet. Grayson and Dooner go onto dicuss Uber’s autonomous trucking investment strategy and who ultimately owns the asset.

    Wrapping up the conversation, Dooner shares his 2024 outlook for the trucking market. 


    Recorded on Wednesday, February 14, 2023


    Episode Chapters

    • 0:00 Introduction 
    • 1:34 Freight Market Outlook 
    • 7:31 Walmart’s Rumored Digital Freight Brokerage 
    • 10:42 Are Electric Truck Mandates Accelerating the Adoption of Autonomous Trucks 
    • 13:57 Vandals in San Fransisco Set Fire to a Waymo Autonomous Vehicle 
    • 18:20 Commercializing Autonomous Trucking 
    • 25:32 The Business of Kodiak Robotics
    • 28:15 Autonomous Delivery Drones 
    • 31:55 Uber’s Autonomous Trucking Investment Strategy 
    • 39:18 Who Owns the Asset? 
    • 42:59 Tesla Cybertruck 
    • 43:52 Apple Vision Pro 
    • 51:08 2024 Trucking Outlook


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    About The Road to Autonomy

    The Road to Autonomy® is a leading source of data, insight and analysis on autonomous vehicles/trucks and the emerging autonomy economy™. The company has two businesses: The Road to Autonomy Indices, with Standard and Poor’s Dow Jones Indices as the custom calculation agent; Media, which includes The Road to Autonomy podcast and This Week in The Autonomy Economy newsletter.

    See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

    Episode 151 | Waymo Via Shutdown: The End of the Universal Driver?, A Conversation with Chuck Price, AI Kinetics

    Episode 151 | Waymo Via Shutdown: The End of the Universal Driver?, A Conversation with Chuck Price, AI Kinetics

    Chuck Price, President, AI Kinetics joined Grayson Brulte on The Road to Autonomy podcast to discuss the shutdown of Waymo Via and what it means for the development of the universal driver. 

    The conversation begins with Chuck sharing his thoughts on the current state of the autonomous trucking industry.

    We are going through change. What we’re seeing is the early phase of this development which was largely science doing science, now moving to doing engineering and commercialization. Some of the companies that have been involved in this thought ahead for that and are prepared and others are struggling or have struggled. 

    What we are seeing is a consolidation and some changes in strategy that I think are normal and healthy for an industry as complex as this. – Chuck Price

    The consolidation currently occurring in the autonomous trucking industry is healthy — the market is functioning properly. On Wednesday, July 26th, Alphabet announced Waymo will be shutting down their autonomous trucking division — Waymo Via. While this may have come as a surprise to many, there were rumors in the market and public statements by Alphabet on earnings calls that laid the foundation for this announcement. 

    Waymo did the right thing for a lot of reasons. – Chuck Price

    By shutting down Waymo Via, Waymo is now going to focus exclusively on their robotaxi business — Waymo One. As Mr. Price stated, this is indeed the right thing for Waymo to do as they are in a head-to-head competition with Cruise. Cruise is a formidable opponent with the resources to compete. Not to mention, Cruise is currently expanding at a much more rapid pace than Waymo. Cruise is in the driver’s seat, while Waymo follows behind. 

    From a technical perspective, was this an admission by Waymo that the Universal Driver did not work as they expected? Or is this more inancial discipline coming from Waymo as the division will have a new de facto CEO on September 1st — Ruth Porat, President & Chief Investment Officer of Alphabet. In her new role Ms. Porat will be responsible for investments in Alphabet’s “Other Bets”. 

    To further streamline the business and appease Wall Street, could Ms. Porat look to license the Waymo driver to global OEMs? Or raise additional capital outside by collateralizing Waymo’s IP? Aurora Innovation with 1,450 patents related to autonomy recently raised $820 million in new capital. 

    I am confident that the formal IP developed by Aurora gave them a huge advantage when they went to raise money, and without that they probably would not have been able to raise. – Chuck Price

    Even though Aurora recently raised $820 million in new capital, the company has a cash burn rate of $45.3 million a month. It’s expensive to operate, Aurora. With Waymo signaling that the Universal Driver did not work, Aurora continues ahead with developing their version of the Universal Driver

    Would Aurora be wise to shut down their passenger car business and focus solely on autonomous trucking? This decision would allow Aurora to streamline their business and lower their cash burn rate — the economics point the way forward. But the question remains, what path will Aurora choose as the company matures and grows?

    I haven’t seen a Universal Virtual Driver yet, but I have seen focused drivers come to fruition. We’ve seen cars that are now self-driving without safety drivers. We’ve seen trucks that are self-driving without safety drivers. Both have been achieved. The science is done for those specific use cases. – Chuck Price

    To scale an autonomous trucking startup, the startup has to have a production relationship with a truck OEM. To achieve this relationship, the autonomous trucking startup will have to commit $50 to $100 million to the relationship.

    Wrapping up the conversation, Chuck shares his thoughts on how he sees the autonomous trucking industry evolving over the next five years.


    Recorded on Tuesday, August 1, 2023

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    About The Road to Autonomy

    The Road to Autonomy® is a leading source of data, insight and commentary on autonomous vehicles/trucks and the emerging autonomy economy™. The company has two businesses: The Road to Autonomy Indices, with Standard and Poor’s Dow Jones Indices as the custom calculation agent; Media, which includes The Road to Autonomy podcast and This Week in The Autonomy Economy newsletter.

    See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.