Ep. 169: Dr. Joel Minden — 4. How to Apply Powerful Techniques for Reducing Anxiety

My guest this week is Nick Davies, back for his third time on the podcast. This time we focused on issues related to midlife, as this is part 3 of our series on that topic.

Things we discussed included:

• Nick’s personal backstory and his decision to make a big change in his mid-thirties
• Asking the right questions that can lead us to fulfillment
• The danger of “normality” that doesn’t serve us well
• Waiting for life to open up for you vs. creating the life you want
• Unhelpful beliefs that can lead us to take a passive role in our own lives
• Steven Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People
• The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin
• Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior
• Setting up your environment in a way that helps you flourish (e.g. life-giving relationships)
• Knowing when to change ourselves vs. changing the situation
• Returning to my clinical practice with a different mindset

Nick Davies is a Tony Robbins-trained coach with over 20 years of experience in the corporate world.

Nick’s sweet spot for delivering value is working with high achieving financial advisors who want to add zero’s to their business but aren’t willing to sacrifice their health or time with family,

Growing up in England, living across 3 continents and 5 locations, Nick takes the lessons from his extensive exposure to people and business, and applies them to his life and his clients.

His focus is to get to the heart of what people really want. Nick believes most of us leave our personal and business potential on the table and settle – and is on a mission to relieve the suffering that can bring. With over 3500 hours of coaching and counting, Nick has worked with many different types of people and businesses to create massive awareness and abundance in those areas.

He believes in holding high standards for himself and his clients. That means a focus on results, but also a focus on compassion.

Find Nick online at LinkedIn.

My guest this week is Dr. Kieran Setiya, a philosophy professor at MIT and author of Midlife: A Philosophical Guide (affiliate link).

Topics we discussed included:

• The extent to which midlife is a time of crisis
• Elliott Jaques’s coining of the term “midlife crisis” in 1965
• Data showing that life satisfaction is U-shaped, with a low in middle age
• Common significant challenges in midlife
  • Past, Present, and Future
• The feeling of having missed out on other possible lives
• The tremendous loss we would experience if missing out were not possible
• The power of philosophy in the self-help space
• The poetic quality of Kieran’s writing and its likely origins
• The overvaluing of having options for their own sake, even if it costs us in absolute satisfaction
• Value beyond removing problems and suffering
• A vision of life beyond striving for “neutral”
• The tension between feeling like what we do matters, and yet life feels completely pointless
• The profundity of hobbies as gratuitous activities that aren’t aimed at solving problems
• What my guest has found is worth doing beyond addressing unmet needs
• The distinction between telic (project) and atelic (process) activities
• The societal pressure and value to be project-focused
• Why we’re bothered by our nonexistence after death much more than our nonexistence before birth
• Understanding what it would really mean to be immortal
• How the arc of a life is different from a movie or a book

Kieran Setiya, PhD, is professor and philosophy section head at MIT.

He works mainly in ethics, epistemology, and the philosophy of mind.

Kieran’s other books include Practical Knowledge, Reasons without Rationalism, Knowing Right from Wrong, and Life Is Hard, which was named one of the best books of 2022 by the Economist and the New Yorker.

Kieran has also written about stand-up comedy, HP Lovecraft, baseball, free will, and the meaning of life.

Find Kieran online at his website and on Substack.

My guest this week is Dr. James Hollis, a therapist and author of many books, including Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life: How to Finally, Really Grow Up (affiliate link).

Topics we discussed included:

• Common struggles one tends to experience in midlife
• The part of our psyche (soul) that knows us better than we know ourselves
• The agenda of the first and second halves of an average-length life
• Why certain issues tend to arise at midlife and not sooner
• The Buddha’s experiences before and after enlightenment
• Missing out on the opportunity to find a different solution to unaddressed problems
• Asking metaphorically what the gods intend through us
• Living in harmony with our inevitable mortality
• The Self working to overthrow the ego
• Asking what the symptoms we’re having are pointing to or asking of us
• Depression as a reorienting of energies when we’re at odds with ourselves
• Why popular culture ideas about intimate relationships tend to lead to unhappiness
• The contrasting realities of “being in love with” and loving another person
• What it means to leave one’s family of origin for the second time
• The projection that is part of the origin of any relationship
• The growth that often comes through challenges and pain
• The cost to ourselves and our loved ones of denying our calling
• Aligning vocation with one’s work life
• How to successfully navigate the challenges of midlife

James Hollis, PhD, is a Jungian analyst based in Washington, DC.

He is the author of many books, including his latest, A Life of Meaning (affiliate link).

Find Jim online at his website.

My guest this week is Dr. Joel Minden, a clinical psychologist, therapist, author of Show Your Anxiety Who’s Boss (affiliate link), and frequent guest on the podcast. This conversation focused on men in therapy.

Topics we discussed included:

• The extent to which men tend to be interested in and open to psychotherapy
• Fears that men might bring to therapy
• The significant overlap in the issues men and women deal with and what brings them to therapy
• The challenge of dealing effectively with anger
• More frequent externalizing disorders among men, e.g., substance use, aggression
• Gender differences in suicide attempts and death by suicide
• Male/female differences in therapy based on roles, e.g., mom vs. dad, husband vs. wife
• Variability among men or women compared to average differences between men and women
• Changes over time in men’s attitudes toward and participation in therapy
• Trying to suppress strong or difficult emotions
• Deflecting the thread of a discussion when running into difficult material
• The idea of reclaiming an “alpha” masculinity
• Confusion and uncertainty about what it means to be a male in our society
• The benefit of normalization in therapy and in life

Joel Minden, PhD, is a clinical psychologist specializing in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) for anxiety and related disorders.

He is the author of Show Your Anxiety Who’s Boss (affiliate link), founder of the Chico Center for Cognitive Behavior Therapy, diplomate of The Academy of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapies, and lecturer in the Department of Psychology at California State University, Chico.

Find Joel online at his website and read his blog on Psychology Today.

My guest this week is Dr. Michelle Drapkin, a clinical psychologist, therapist, and author of an excellent new workbook called The Motivational Interviewing Path to Personal Change: The Essential Workbook for Creating the Life You Want (affiliate link).

Topics we discussed included:

• What motivational interviewing (MI) is and why the name is misleading
• Ambivalence toward change and how it’s addressed with MI
• Living our values in the midst of our ambivalence
• Finding different and more productive avenues to pursue our values
• Prochaska and DiClemente and the Stages of Change model
  • Pre-contemplation
  • Contemplation
  • Preparation
  • Action
  • Maintenance
• Why change is not a completely linear process
• How much of our behavior is conscious and intentional vs. automatic
• Realizing that it’s normal for the mind to think of off-the-wall things
• The meaning (or meaninglessness) of dreams
• The book The Alchemist
• What led Michelle to adapt MI for a self-help workbook
• The practice of “rolling with resistance,” now renamed “dancing with discord”
• Encouraging change talk vs. trying to convince someone they have to change

Michelle Drapkin, PhD, ABPP, is a board-certified psychologist who owns and operates the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Center, and has worked in behavioral science for over 20 years.

She has held various roles as a behavioral scientist in industry, including leading the development and deployment of behavior change interventions at Johnson & Johnson.

Michelle was a national motivational interviewing (MI) trainer at the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA), and was on faculty at the University of Pennsylvania.

She completed her PhD in clinical psychology from Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey; and joined the Motivational Interviewing Network of Trainers (MINT) in 2008. She has trained thousands of health care professionals and industry leaders in MI.

Find Michelle online at her website and on LinkedIn.

My guest this week is Dr. Regine Galanti, a licensed psychologist and author of the amazing new book, Parenting Anxious Kids: Understanding Anxiety in Children by Age and Stage (affiliate link). It was Regine’s second time on the podcast and we had another great conversation.

Topics we discussed included:

• Regine’s fantastic new book
• Less-frequently recognized signs of anxiety in young kids
• Why anxious parents often have anxious kids
• The online information for parents that often makes kids’ anxiety worse
• The issues my guest takes with “gentle parenting”
• The negative effects on kids of missing school due to anxiety
• Parents’ concerns about how the way they respond to their child’s anxiety will hurt their relationship
• Building the relationship with a child outside of the “anxiety zone”
• The shortcomings of so-called “tough love” when it comes from anger or fear
• The challenges when a parent of an anxious child isn’t ready to face their own fears
• All-or-nothing approaches to responding to a child’s anxiety
• The opportunities that kids offer in terms of parents’ growth
• Ways that a parent-child relationship can grow by working through hard things together

Regine Galanti, PhD, is a licensed psychologist who focuses on helping kids and teens with anxiety. She specializes in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and has expertise in treating OCD, anxiety, parenting, and behavioral problems.

She’s the founder of Long Island Behavioral Psychology, where she brings warmth, sensitivity, and a problem solving approach to her practice.  Regine specializes in effective short-term treatments that work for anxiety and related disorders, including exposure therapy.

She lives in Long Island, New York with her husband and three daughters.  She’s quick to acknowledge that they all get anxious sometimes, and that’s okay.

In addition to this new book, she’s also the author of Anxiety Relief for Teens and When Harley Has Anxiety.

My guest this week is Dr. David Tolin, a clinical psychologist, researcher, author, and expert on effective treatments for many psychological conditions.

In this conversation we focused on hoarding disorder, and then segued into a more general discussion about cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and other treatment approaches.

Topics we discussed included:

• The continuum of hoarding
• The diagnostic criteria for when hoarding is considered a disorder
• Instances of needing to buy a second home due to hoarding
• The prevalence of hoarding disorder
• The causes of hoarding
• How those who are at risk for hoarding disorder can minimize the risk of developing it
• The limits of reason and logic in treating hoarding
• Effective hoarding treatment
• The possibility that the medications atomoxetine and venlafaxine might be effective
• The role of distress tolerance in treatment
• Prioritizing living better over feeling better
• The value of strategies from motivational interviewing
• Effectiveness of the best treatments
• The effects on hoarding of general talk therapy
• Whether cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) is the best treatment for every condition
• How to harness the placebo effect in therapy
• Finding mutual respect across therapy traditions
• The need for more effective psychological treatment
• Doing higher quality research studies
• What to do when the best-tested treatments aren’t helpful
• Historical advancements in CBT for panic disorder
• The textbook that David wrote calling Doing CBT

David Tolin, PhD, ABPP, is the Founder and Director of the Anxiety Disorders Center at the Institute of Living, and an Adjunct Professor of Psychiatry at Yale University School of Medicine.

He is the Past-President of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies, the Past-President of the Clinical Psychology Division of the American Psychological Association, and a principal investigator for the National Institutes of Health.

He received the Awards for Distinguished Contribution to the Science of Psychology, Distinguished Contribution to the Practice of Psychology, and Lifetime Contribution to Psychology from the Connecticut Psychological Association.

David is the author of over 200 scientific journal articles, as well as several books, including (affiliate links):

• Doing CBT: A Comprehensive Guide to Working with Behaviors, Thoughts, and Emotions
• Buried in Treasures: Help for Compulsive Acquiring, Saving, and Hoarding
• Face Your Fears: A Proven Plan to Beat Anxiety, Panic, Phobias, and Obsessions.

He has been featured on the reality TV series Hoarders and The OCD Project, and has been a recurring guest on The Oprah Winfrey Show.

Find David online at his website and at the Institute of Living.

My guest this week is Nir Eyal, author of the excellent book Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life (affiliate link).

Topics we discussed included:

• The connection between Nir’s first and second books
• Nir’s own history of distraction and needing the techniques of Indistractable
• Using psychological principles to create positive habits the same way social media and advertising companies exploit the principles for their own profit
• Differentiating between helpful and harmful uses of technology
• The cost of pervasive distraction
• Missing out on the important things in life
• The distractibility that is part of our basic nature
• The inherent cost of every new technology
• The internal factors that often drive distraction, e.g., anxiety
• The 10-Minute Rule from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT)
• The psychological reactance that arises as a rebellion to abstinence
• “Surfing the urge” of challenging emotions to resist unproductive urges
• A fascinating study about cigarette smoking and nicotine cravings
• Using time boxing to prevent distraction
• Turning values into time
• Being stingy with time and generous with money
• Prioritizing easy and urgent work over hard and important work
• The tyranny of the to-do list
• The joy of doing exactly what you said you were going to
• Planning time for spontaneity

Nir Eyal writes, consults, and teaches about the intersection of psychology, technology, and business. Nir previously taught as a Lecturer in Marketing at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and the Hasso Plattner Institute of Design at Stanford.

Nir co-founded and sold two tech companies since 2003 and was dubbed by The M.I.T. Technology Review as, “The Prophet of Habit-Forming Technology.”

He is the author of two bestselling books, Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products and Indistractable (affiliate links). His books have resonated with readers worldwide, selling over 1 million copies in over 30 languages.

Indistractable has received a lot of critical acclaim, winning the Outstanding Works of Literature Award as well as being named one of the Best Business and Leadership Books of the Year by Amazon and one of the Best Personal Development Books of the Year by Audible. The Globe and Mail called Indistractable, “the best business book of 2019.”

In addition to blogging at NirAndFar.com, Nir’s writing has been featured in The New York Times, The Harvard Business Review, Time Magazine, and Psychology Today.

Nir attended The Stanford Graduate School of Business and Emory University.

Find Nir online at his website and connect with him on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook.

My guest this week is Oren Jay Sofer.

Topics we discussed included:

• Oren’s new book, Your Heart Was Made for This
• The ways that our minds and hearts are shaped by the world
  • Scarcity
  • Separation
  • Depletion
• Understanding the roots of suffering and how to relieve suffering
• Our mistaken belief and wish that consumption will finally provide ultimate fulfillment and satisfaction
• Oren’s realization at a young age that all of life is in flux
• Common effects of social media use, and what drives it
• How becoming a dad while writing his most recent book affected Oren and how he sees the world
• Finding unconditional love and acceptance
• My guest’s experience of persistent Lyme Disease
• Finding a kind of joy that doesn’t depend on our conditions
• The inseparable nature of joy and sorrow
• The joy that comes from living in alignment with the truth
• Embracing the mess of our lives, just as they are

Oren Jay Sofer teaches Buddhist meditation, mindfulness, and communication internationally.

He holds a degree in comparative religion from Columbia University and is a Certified Trainer of Nonviolent Communication and a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner for the healing of trauma.

Born and raised in New Jersey, Oren is the author of several books, including the best-selling title Say What You Mean: A Mindful Approach to Nonviolent Communication along with his latest, Your Heart Was Made for This.

His teaching has reached people worldwide through online communication courses and guided meditations. Oren lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with his wife and son, where he enjoys cooking, spending time in nature, and home woodworking projects.

Find Oren online at his website and connect with him on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

My guest this week is Dr. Paul Kesselman, a clinical psychologist in private practice in Devon, Pennsylvania.

Topics we discussed included:

• The difference between healing and curing
• My own experience of illness and curing vs. healing
• A therapy scene from the Oscar-winning movie “Good Will Hunting”
• Validating pain and then pivoting to what is productive
• Show about a wrestler born with no arms (HBO?)
• Reacting to difficulties in life such as a poor night’s sleep
• How we react to our mistakes
• When therapy is over (or paused)
• Preventing therapist burnout
• Shifting as a therapist from curing to collaborating
• Asking what we can learn when we feel stuck
• Growth vs. fixed mindsets
• The value in being emptied out
• Being authentic as a therapist
• The intense feelings that are often present in the therapy room
• Non-romantic love as part of the therapy process
• The therapy-based TV show “In Treatment”

Paul Kesselman, PsyD, completed his doctoral degree in psychology at Yeshiva University. He has taught college level courses in child psychology. He has been working in private practice seeing individuals, families, and running groups since 2003.

Paul works with children as young as four years of age and sees children, pre- teens, adolescents, families, young adults, and adults. He has also conducted research studies on social anxiety at New York State Psychiatric Institute.

Paul grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia. He and his wife have five children; he enjoys spending time with his family, listening to music, and playing baseball when he is not helping patients and families.

He has a passion for his work and enjoys the opportunity to work with issues such as anxiety, depression, ADHD, autism spectrum disorders, learning issues, OCD, anger issues, impulse control disorders, school avoidance and refusal, and adjustments issues.

Paul has spoken at both public and private area schools on a variety of topics including ADHD, anxiety, special needs children, and school anxiety.

Learn more about Paul and his therapy practice at his website.