Episode 04: On Building High Trust Organizations

Hello, and welcome back to Weirdos in the Workplace. I'm your host, Erin Patchell. Today isn't just another episode. It's a special one. It is our season finale. It is January 31, and it has been, I think, ten months since we started this podcast and 45 episodes. So today we're going to have a little reflection on the incredible journey of growth, discovery, and stepping out of my comfort zone that happened as we went through season one.

When I started this podcast, I literally had no idea what I was doing. And I still feel like I don't know what I'm doing. But we're figuring it out, and I'm glad that you're on this journey with me. So stay tuned.

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Have you ever wanted to start a podcast or build something that gets your voice out there, or allows somebody else to get their voice out there in the universe and build a platform where people can say what they think and what they want and their dreams and help people and serve. Or maybe you're just looking for a creative outlet for yourself. So this episode is going to be all about the different lessons that I learned along the way when I started the podcast, and then through the last almost year. And I'll talk a little bit about the future of the podcast as well, or future of podcasts in terms of what is the strategies that I've learned that we can implement in order to grow the podcast. So if you're really interested in podcasting, or you're just curious about it, this is definitely the episode for you.

So everyone asks me why I started the podcast, and I don't know if I have a very good reason, to be honest, it was just sort of a whim. One day I knew that I wanted to have some kind of media platform for positivist group, for my company, something where clients, interesting people, our consultants, we could all have a voice on that platform. And I thought I would just test out podcasting as a media. And honestly, the first time that I recorded, when I first recorded my first episode on being the dumbest person in the room, literally had no idea. I have a Mac, and with the Mac comes garageband, and I'm still recording on Garageband to this day. So I literally just recorded the audio straight into garageband. I not an audio technician, I have no idea what I'm doing. I literally stream of consciousness just started talking into the microphone, kind of pausing when I got kind of stalled when my words weren't flowing correctly, kind of editing as I went.

And then by the end of it, I had, I think like an eight minute podcast episode and I listened to it, and I was like, you know, I don't hate that. It's not terrible. It's kind of like, authentic. I kind of dig it. It's whatever, right? Kind of shows my personality. And it's not perfect, but I don't know if I need it to be perfect. That's not me. I am not someone who is cursed with perfectionism.

I will say that. And I'm also not somebody who's cursed with impostor syndrome. I pretty much feel like I'm comfortable in almost any situation at this point, at least if I've decided to be there. If I have agency in the situation and I have chosen to become a part of something, I will own it. Like, I don't feel uncomfortable now. If I'm forced into a situation, that's a totally different story. I am incredibly uncomfortable in situations that are forced. But as long as I've chosen to do something, I go all in.

I just put all my cards on the table. So whether I do it well or poorly doesn't really matter to me, because I know that I'm going to learn something through the process. And by the way, that mindset wasn't something that I was born with. That's something that I have learned over the last 40 years of my life. And so I think it's actually a good thing. When I talk to people about that kind of mindset, the way that I think about things, I'm told that it's very healthy. So, yeah, it's a process. You learn by doing, you learn by failing, and you figure out that the only person who control your own emotions is you.

So all that to say, I didn't really care if my first episodes or even my 45th episode was shit. I figured that I would learn, and from feedback. The only way that I feel like I can learn is from feedback. Like, for example, the other day, I threw some TikToks up on the first TikToks that I ever made, which I have no idea what I'm doing, like I said. And of course, my 16 year old daughter's like, mom, those were so embarrassing and cringy. And now she's demanding to be my social media manager for TikTok. So we'll see. Maybe I'll have a 16 year old social media manager.

I think there's good things happening on TikTok for Positivist Group in the future. And that's the thing. You need to get feedback, even if it's absolutely brutal. The more brutal, almost the better. In some ways, because if it's wishy washy, then I might not take it as seriously. But if it's brutal feedback, well, yeah, I got to pay attention to that. In terms of the podcast, though, we've gotten really good feedback. We've had some pretty awesome guests on the podcast this year, and people even seem to be enjoying the solo podcasts that I'm putting out as well.

And I'm really trying to be thoughtful about them. So if you have been enjoying them, that's awesome. I'd love to hear from you. And if you also have feedback from me, I would love to hear that as well. To me, this is a community project. I'm trying to bring as many people onto the podcast as I can, who are interesting people, who have interesting things to say. And season two is going to be that much better because we have a whole strategy for season two that I'll share.

So, yeah, I think that it's been a really interesting ride, and it's just the consistency. So that's the most important thing, I think, when it comes to any project like this is consistency. Making sure that you are releasing at approximately the same time every week or whatever your time frame is. We're posting every week. Our episodes aren't overly long. We're not posting two hour long episodes. They're 35 minutes or less, and often quite a bit less. My solo episodes range from eight minutes to about 18 minutes, and then the episodes with guests range from usually 20 to 35 minutes, kind of more towards the 35 minutes side of things. So that means that I can put them out generally every week, and I have for the last 45 weeks.

So having a consistent kind of brand message. What's the purpose of the podcast? Obviously, the title of the podcast, I feel, speaks for itself. Weirdos. In the workplace, we are trying to build cultures where everyone can feel at home and even heal. So authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose, as someone who always felt like an outsider, those are the four values that really were like the North Star in terms of building cultures, of inclusion, at least from my perspective. And so bringing everyone on the podcast, anyone who's on the podcast, really aligning with those values, but then helping to figure out what's a building block.

So whether it was executive presence with Eleanor Eves, whether it was improv with, you know, whether it was the impact of empathy with Maxine Buddh, being a neurodivergent creative with Stephanie Demontini, learning about our sleep patterns, particularly insomnia, which I think a lot of us struggle with, with Erin Arkin. Talking about revolutionary leadership with Ange McCabe. Reshaping e learning, the next generation of e learning with Hanye Koshku. Bringing Eleanor back on the podcast to talk about why women at work are more ambitious than know, talking about being a disruptive creator with Robert Smith, building corporate wellness into a cultural practice with Kelly Ryan, and digging deep into personal development and leadership with Garen Jemian.

I'm now proud to call these guests my friends, even if we were just acquaintances before they came on the podcast, some of them were beginning to do some work together as well. So it's just a great community building, networking opportunity. And also, the whole point is to serve people. I'm a strong believer in servant leadership. We did an episode on servant leadership way back in the beginning of the podcast, and my whole life is designed, I've designed my life to serve people, to serve the biggest possible audience, and to make the biggest possible impact. And so in order to do that, part of that was I need to get outside my comfort zone.

If the end goal is to make the biggest possible impact that I can make, I become my biggest bottleneck, my biggest roadblock. So what is it that I would do? What is it that you would do if you weren't afraid to do it, if you weren't afraid to fail, or if you weren't afraid of success? I was never really afraid to fail, but I was terrified of success. And I'll tell you why. Success meant attachment. It meant that I had to maintain my success. People who are successful have a lot of demands on their time and their energy. More importantly, a lot of demands on their energy. They have to make a lot of people happy, and I'm not sure I was ready for that kind of responsibility.

I'm still not entirely sure, but I'm committed to it anyways. So I guess we'll see how it goes. And if it becomes too much, I can always roll it back to a level where it's a bit more sustainable for me. But at this point in time, I'm ready for what the future brings. And if it's success, then I believe that I'm ready for it. But I think that is a good question for everyone. If you want to make the biggest possible impact, what are you afraid of? What's holding you back? Okay, so now that we've talked a little bit about philosophy, which I can't help myself, I'll take you through a few of the tactical things that I do to get my podcast up and running. So the podcast hosting company that I'm with is Libsyn, and there are lots of others, and some of them I think are rated higher than Libsyn as well.

So take that with a grain of salt. But I find it's been very easy to use. So I guess that says something. I record on Garageband, edit on garageband, export the files, I upload the files to Libsyn. I use canva to create the podcast images. And I've also been using recently, this is just in the last month or so, I've been using canva as well to create our shorts, shorts for YouTube, Facebook, Instagram. I haven't been posting them on LinkedIn yet. I don't know if I will.

I just don't want to overload that platform with a lot of shorts. I don't know that that's the right strategy for that one, but time will tell. I also use an AI tool called Cast Magic, which I've been finding really helpful. And that one helps with the transcript. So it'll create the transcript which you do have to edit because it's not perfect. And I went back and I looked at some and I was like, I clearly did not edit that properly, but oh well. And then it also will create some AI kind of keywords, titles, clip finders like LinkedIn posts, scripts, things like that. I haven't been using the full value of those.

I do take some of it as inspiration. I do think that's helpful to get the inspiration. But you could probably get a lot of that, I think, from just from like you could probably just use Chat GPT as well to get a lot of that. So everything gets put onto Libsyn. So it gets pushed to Libsyn. That's like the title. It asks for the author, the script, yada yada, the actual file, it's audio file itself. And then Libsyn, once you save that, it posts everything and it pushes it to all of the major podcasting platforms like iHeartradio, Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

And through YouTube you can actually get the RSS stream, which is the location basically from Libsyn, from the host of the podcast where the podcasts are hosted. You can pull that straight to YouTube. So that's what we've been doing and then adding our shorts onto YouTube. When I first started, I really didn't want to play the whole marketing game. I wasn't doing this necessarily know. I wasn't doing this for lead generation purposes. It was for educational purposes. I was okay with a slow growth.

I was not looking to be a social media, like an influencer of any kind, and still not, by the way. But I do think there's valuable content here. So I did want the content to be found, and it didn't take me very long to discover that you really do have to play the game if you want to be found. And I'm still learning that. I'm still going to be learning that for the rest of the lifetime of this podcast, I'm sure. Because the game always changes. That's the fun part about the game. But one of our values is authenticity.

So I wanted to make sure that we were doing it in a way that wasn't deceitful. I didn't want to have too much legit clickbait if the title of the podcast didn't match the content. To me, that's a problem, but it does have to be compelling. So this is something that we have to think about. It's something that we have to put time and energy into. Is will people be interested in this? What do people want to hear? And that becomes easier and easier the longer you move forward because you are getting that feedback. But there's a lot we can do. There's so much content online already.

So the best place to look is to just start looking and seeing what other people are doing kind of in the same space, and what's been popular and what has not been popular. And from our research, stuff that has a shock value is definitely more popular than stuff that's more educational. And we're trying to not go there. I don't want to just be a shock jockey, although I definitely have the personality for it. The problem with creating something for shock value is that it's really not practical at all. You can't implement it, it's not useful. And more than anything else, I want this to be useful. So after thinking about that, we decided the second season of weirdos in the workplace was going to be very much focused on practical problem solving, still focused on the values of authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose.

But what are the building blocks that create inclusive, high performing, profitable organizations? And let's focus on those and the real problems that organizations are having today, especially revenue generation. Yes, we're trying to build inclusive cultures, but there's not even a business if you don't have revenue and if you don't have profit. So really thinking about, like, how do we create businesses that have both of those things, purpose and profit. So that's what we're focusing on in season two, and we're bringing those 30 professional problem solvers. So we're going to have 45 episodes, same as season 115 of those episodes are going to be solo episodes, just to help sort of draw a line in the sand and recap, like reflect and go forward. And then the 30 episodes are going to have guests who are professional problem solvers who also have some of their own platforms as well. And we'll be literally real time problem solving. I'm going to walk them through a problem solving framework, and we're going to problem solve in real time a real customer issue or issue from our listeners.

So if you're listening to this and you're like, I have a big problem that I would like you guys to help me solve. We have free expert problem solvers that are happy to help you. So please feel free to email me at Erin at Positivist, CA or you can find me on most social media platforms at. Or, you know, find my team if you want to message my team online at positivist group on most of the platforms except for TikTok, that one's at the positivist. And don't go look, because apparently it's embarrassing. And this is why reverse mentorship is the best. Because these kids, my God, they are just the most amazing, brutal feedback givers in the entire world. Get thyself a reverse mentor.

A younger mentor. Yeah. That's all I have to say about that. So I think you should start a podcast this year if you've been interested in doing a podcast. If you want to dip your toes in, maybe do one a month or something, but schedule it in your calendar, commit to it. Make it sacred. That's how I manage to do things that I don't always want to do. Because believe me, there have definitely been weeks where I'm really tired.

It's been like, I've been working 15 hours a day. I've been grinding, and the last thing I want to do is have to record a podcast, and I didn't have previous content recorded or whatever. So you have to make it sacred. Make it sacred. It's a ritual in your life, and you will not miss it. That's how you get it done. Commit to a certain number of episodes and then decide whether you're going to continue. There's nothing wrong with that, but do it for yourself.

As much as I was just talking about figuring out what your customers want and blah, blah, blah, and researching what other people are doing, well, at the end of the day, if you don't love your content, if you don't love your message, you're not going to want to do it anyways, so you have to do it for yourself. When I was at the TED conference back in 2023 in Vancouver, it was April 2023, I believe I had lunch with a gentleman named Darryl Frank, who is the co president of Amblin television. That's Steven Spielberg's company. And the one question I really wanted to know was, how do you decide on your content? How do you decide what you are going to produce? And the answer that he gave me is, well, we kind of figure out what we want to watch and then kind of backtrack from there and figure out how to get that done. So I would recommend and it was like, yes, that is just the right answer that I wanted to hear. So make content that you want to make that is interesting for you and you will definitely find people who are interested in it. But in order to market to those people, you have to know what words they're searching for. You have to understand their personas.

Right? So it's a both. It's in. Yes. And so as this season wraps up, I'm looking back with gratitude and I'm looking forward with excitement. The lessons that I learned, boundaries I pushed, the comfort zones have expanded, have made this journey unforgettable. So to you, the listener, thank you for joining me on this adventure. Your support and feedback have been what has kept me going. And as we gear up for next season, remember to never shy away from the edge of your comfort zone because that's where the magic happens.

If you like this episode, don't forget to like and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Don't forget to connect with us at positivist.ca or on social media @positivistgroup. And if you're a business owner or a business leader looking for like, hardcore business learning topics, we have a book club. One of my team members reminded me that I hadn't mentioned that for a while. So if you go to positivist.ca/book-club, then you'll find the book club and you can register. And it's mostly virtual. Every quarter we do an in person in Ottawa.

If you're Ottawa local, then you're more than welcome to join us in, you know, all the rest of the months of the year, we're virtual via Zoom and we focus on hardcore business topics. So feel free to connect and I can share more about that. As always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. This is Erin Patchell signing off; January 31, the final podcast of the season. Season two gearing up April 3. So stay tuned and there will be lots of sneak peeks between now and then. Have a beautiful day at work.

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If you liked this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca, or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Welcome back to another episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, where we detangle how to live and thrive as business owners and business leaders, while all the while demonstrating authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and today we're talking about what to expect in 2024. We're also going to set some intentions for season two of weirdos in the workplace, and I'm going to make some commitments on behalf of my company, positivist group. Stay tuned. By all accounts, is going to be kind of a weird year. Canadian SME magazine, BDC, Harvard Business Review, and so many others are doing their best to predict the future so that we don't have to. And I know that nobody can predict the future. It's literally impossible.

But there are definitely some trends I think that we need to keep our eye on as small and medium sized business owners or folks who are leading organizations here in Canada. And the first trend I'd like to talk about is hyper personalization. And so hyper personalization is something that we have started to see in the last ten years. It's going to continue long into the future. And I think that we can all agree that with the advances of AI and the fact that organizations are capable of hyper personalizing using AI and machine learning, it's going to become much more important for organizations to get on that bandwagon. And the hyper personalization bandwagon is simultaneously aligned with the trust violations. So this year, I think we've seen since, even before the pandemic, we've been seeing trust at an all time low. This shows up in all kinds of ways, but it shows up in the way that our politics are fractured.

It shows up in the way that we're seeing conspiracy theories, tons of conspiracy theories online. It shows up in our everyday relationships and friction within the workplace. It shows up in employee engagement. It shows up in retaining our employees. So we're in a very low trust environment. Nobody really knows who to trust what's real anymore. We have deep fakes online. And so this erosion of trust is going to, I think, dramatically affect small businesses and large businesses all over the world in 2024 and beyond.

And I think it's only going to get worse because we really don't have any checks and balances right now. When it comes to AI, there's not really any way of knowing what's real. Obviously, some of the deep fakes are really obvious, but some of them are really quite good. So skepticism is the order of the day. Critical thinking is the order of the day. And with that, really focusing more on those one to one relationships. Building trust in a very personal way with your employees and with your customers is going to be paramount. Some of the ways that I think businesses are going to need to evolve in order to build more trust is through that omnichannel, brand communication through engaging customers using voice and video media, either one to one or one to many.

Taking, like we said, a far more personalized approach to everything that you do. I think relying on one channel, for example, like Google Adwords or I guess Google Ads now and Facebook is no longer going to work out, really. You need to be on every platform and you need to build a multi generational audience. How can we create more human to human interactive moments? Moments that we're being vulnerable, moments where we're being honest, moments where we're demonstrating transparency. We're bringing our customers along a journey along. They're feeling like they're part of our story. Another really important trend is the fact that people are getting very selective about where they're spending their money. Customers are getting a lot more real about wanting to align with corporate values, not buying international, buying local.

There's definitely a kind of deglobalization effect happening or a localization effect happening. And part of that was partly due to the supply chain issues. Part of that is issues with values of different countries that we may have been purchasing from before. There's starting to be a trend in the direction of minimalism and value for dollar, but not at the expensive values. So in summary, customers are learning that every dollar matters. They don't have as much disposable income as they used to be used to, and they're seeking quality over quantity. Basically, we have to give them a reason to buy from you. The BDC, that's the business Development bank of Canada, recommends a strong focus on human resources management to recruit and retain the best people.

I mean, obviously, in our observations, employee engagement and retention is not an HR issue. That's something that has become very apparent over the last several years of failed employee engagement projects and failed employee retention projects, is HR cannot just hold up the entire organization. HR is almost never the reason why employees become disengaged or leave their companies. It is a management problem, not an HR problem, and often it's an operational problem. So if you're in HR and you feel like you're pushing a boulder up a hill and like, banging your head against a wall, that's probably why you need to advocate that. This is a whole team challenge. This is a whole team opportunity. It might be something that needs to be built into your operating model and you only have so much influence.

So cross functional teaming, when it comes to solving some of these people problems, is going to be the order of business in 2024. It's always been important, just as being client focused or customer focused has always been important, but we need that much more of a focus on these areas. We need to be brutal when it comes to decision making. We need to just totally cut the fat and focus on making sure we're building those really strong foundations for teaming and building that total transparency. I mean, not total transparency, we're never totally transparent. But when it comes to decision making, we need to understand why. It enables us to understand the cross functional teaming enables us to understand how every single change impacts every corner of the organization in order for us to make better upfront decisions. It's like renovating a house.

If you had a tool, most of you have probably renovated a house or have known someone who's renovated a house, right? So if you had a tool that allowed you to see through every single wall and understand the plumbing, the wiring, the structure, all ahead of time, before you took out the walls to the kitchen and found knob and tube wiring and questionable vermiculate, and yes, I'm speaking from experience here, then you'd have to be crazy to go ahead with the demo unless you saw that everything was like perfectly well and good and you had the budget for it and there were no issues. So making sure that you have that transparency, that crossed functional teaming, that information gives you clarity to make sure you know what the issues are before they become issues. Of course, that only works if your team is willing to be honest. So your relationship equity becomes the most important tool into your toolbox. And so we're circling back here. We're circling back to trust. Every positive interaction, every moment of support, every successful collaboration deposits that equity, that relationship equity and builds trust and goodwill. Goodwill, holy moly, so important.

Conversely, those misunderstandings, conflicts, or negative interactions, or absent interactions are withdrawals. So your goal as a business owner or business leader isn't just to keep your relationship bank account in the black. It's to have such a strong bank account that even if something traumatic happens, like a decision that you have no other choice to make but that you know will negatively affect the team, for example, that you have little question that the team will know for sure that you did the best that you could in the scenario because you actually care and you've demonstrated that you care about them over and over and over again. So the question of the day is, can your team trust you to make smart decisions and do your best to take care of them? In a more hierarchical organization, it starts at the top. That's probably you. That might be you. If the leader at the top isn't worthy of trust, the trust connection with the company will always be broken. There will be always a gaping hole at the bottom that you're trying to fill.

So don't do these things. Don't demonstrate poor judgment and not listen to your team members concerns. Don't burn bridges. Don't be generally uncooperative or stubborn about always having your own way. Don't be unwilling to change, even if there are decent reasons to do so. Don't not make amends for past mistakes, and definitely make sure you acknowledge them. Don't break confidentiality. Don't lie, and you'd be shocked how many leaders directly lie to their teams.

Don't be a hypocrite. Don't use dirty tactics or cheating. As soon as you start playing dirty, nobody on your team's going to trust you again because they know that that's your character. Don't manipulate others. And that goes for the same as soon as you start manipulating people, and anyone who becomes aware of that manipulation is no longer ever going to trust you. And yes, there is a gigantic chasm of a difference between manipulation and influence. They're totally different things. And despite all of these sort of challenges that I've just mentioned, the BDC actually predicts that the economy is going to be pretty resilient in 2024, with economic growth hovering around 1%, with inflation a little bit higher, around 3% potentially.

And these are just estimates from their most recent report. So who knows what's going to change if you are trying to grow a business in 2024? Some potentially good news for you, as long as you have a clear path to profitability. BDC is predicting that investors will favor companies that have a very solid business case, so having your business plan is going to be more important than ever. If you are in an industry that is related to the environment, social or governance, then you will probably have a better shot. So integrating these principles and values into your work is going to be especially important going forward. And the one thing that I hope that maybe is a good takeaway from this episode is solving problems quickly. Don't let problems fester. I think that we need to address them while they're as small as possible and being transparent about what the problems are with your team members as much as you can and being really just as real and practical as possible through the decision making process.

I don't think this is the year for like pie in the sky airy fairy thinking. I think really this is the year to get seriously practical and solutions focused and targeted. And sometimes the beauty of constraints is that it makes us more innovative anyways, right? So once we know where the boundaries are, the guardrails are, we can play within them. And honestly, some of the greatest innovations have come from within a very small box or in a garage. Even. So, I'm looking forward to seeing what amazing innovations come out in 2024, despite the fact that maybe funding is a little bit more challenging to acquire and we're not as expansively thinking perhaps as we are in other years. Before we wrap up today's episode, I just want to say that we're really excited for season two of weirdos in the workplace. We're bringing on 30 professional problem solvers to help diagnose and problem solve real customer and challenges from our listeners just like you.

And so if you have a story that you'd like to share about something that's going on, could be anything in the world. It could be anything from grants funding, to diversity equity inclusion, to building and implementing your environmental, social and governance plan to Bob's your uncle. Seriously, any problem you have at work, if it's a people problem or an operational problem or a sales problem, I'm inviting a whole bunch of diverse people onto the show and we're going to literally problem solve your problem in real time. So that should be a lot of fun. For my company, positivist group, we are getting really practical this year. We are hyper focusing on projects, internal and external projects, and we're totally cutting the fat and getting rid of all of the distractions. So that is definitely I'm trying to follow my own advice and we've got some really interesting projects in the accessibility and inclusion space that I'm really excited to announce. If you do follow us on social media at Positivist Group or on LinkedIn, LinkedIn.com Slash company Slash positivist group or myself, erinpachel, then you can follow along with that.

Otherwise, I will leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors. In case you didn't know, I am a bit of a fantasy fiction junkie and love the I've been reading over and over and over again for most of my life, the series Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan and so this quote is from Fires of Heaven: "The oak fought the wind, and was broken, the willow bent when it must and survived."

And I do feel like that is a great quote for 2024. So as always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[outro]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Erin: Welcome to weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose and its impact on our world of work. And I'm here today with my special guest, Kelly Ryan. Say hello, Kelly.

Kelly: Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for having me on.

Erin: Erin, I'm so excited to have you on. Kelly is the owner of nerd mom Nutrition and helps companies support their leaders and employees so they can have more energy and focus at home and at work. She's a culinary nutrition expert, certified holistic nutritionist, facilitator, and coach. And Kelly, you also have a Rogers cable tv series called Nerd Mom Kitchen Adventures, which features your kids who are eight and eleven. Is that right?

Kelly: Eight and eleven? Yeah.

Erin: You're amazing. All right, what are we talking about today, Kelly?

Kelly: We are pretty much talking about, I guess, everything corporate health and wellness.

Erin: Absolutely. All right, folks, stay tuned. So, Kelly, if a company wanted to work with you to support their employees or their team and their culture, what exactly can you do for them?

Kelly: Yeah, so I call myself the sidekick, but really, I firmly believe that it's in a company's best interest to support their employees health and wellness. And I like to support that in a fun, nerdy kind of way. So I'll go into a company and I'll either do a live talk, and I've got a couple that I do. The funner one is the eight health zapping supervillains and the superheroes that defeat them.

Erin: You must make that into a book, if you haven't already.

Kelly: I should make that into a book. Maybe a comic. Yes. That could be fun. A graphic novel or something. Yeah. So that's one. Or I'll do, like, from exhausted to energetic live talk.

Kelly: So it's all about that healthy living, energetic kind of vibe. Or I'll do a cooking demo, and I've done a couple of really fun cooking demos. One company I worked for, they're all Star wars. Like, they all love Star wars. Their servers are even named after Star wars characters.

Erin: Oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

Kelly: Yeah. So I went and I did a Star wars themed cooking demo. That's a lot of fun. And, yeah, I do another live talk that's all about from exhausted to energetic. And that's basically how you can make little changes in your own life and how companies can support their employees with their health changes, so you can have tons of energy. I'll also do cooking demos, and they can be a lot of fun because I had one client who they all love Star wars. Their servers are even named, like, different Star wars names and stuff. So we went and we did a Star wars themed cooking demo.

Kelly: I love that. Yeah. So that was a lot of fun. And other than that, we'll do fun challenges, which are a little bit longer, or we'll do a workshop where we'll do a live talk and then what they learn, we put into practice. Or I'll actually help a company with their health and wellness policies, procedures program, that sort of thing. Yeah.

Erin: Awesome. So you actually can go into a company and help them with policies related to this?

Kelly: Sort of. I have a background in quality policy planning, internal auditing.

Erin: That's a bonus.

Kelly: Yeah. So that's kind of why I decided to go and work corporate health and wellness. But that's part of the reason I think it's really important for companies to support their employees health and wellness, because the reality is we spend a lot of hours at work, and you don't want your employees to feel that work is a barrier to their health and their wellness. Right. And a lot of employees feel that way. They find it hard to take care of their own health. And it's important for a company to support their employees health and wellness so that they can be present, they can be creative, they can feel focused. And a lot of that comes from whether it's mental health, whether it's physical health, what they're eating, drinking up water.

Erin: How much control do you think your clients or any organizations have over the health and wellness of their employees, especially in terms of, obviously, nutrition, because that's your main area of focus. And what have you seen successful companies do to help integrate that? So it's not like such, this division of church and state. You go eat healthy at home, or you try to, and then you come to work and all hell breaks loose. How do we integrate that?

Kelly: It's not about control, because people don't like feeling controlled. It's more about creating that culture, that health and wellness culture. So it's more about supporting and encouraging. Right. And providing the information. I mean, it can be everything from putting posters up on your walls to having walking meetings. Or instead of ordering pizza, maybe ordering salad, soups, sandwiches. Right.

Instead of having pepsi or coke in your fridge, have water, have a Brita filter or something. So it's about those little things. One big important thing is, as we know, people don't do what we say, they do what we do. So creating that culture, living that lifestyle as a leader is very important. And encouraging your employees to take care of themselves. I mean, how many people. Oh, well, I got to work through my lunchtime. So I'll just skip the gym today.

Right. Whereas, no, it's important. No, you need to go to the gym or whatever. If it's yoga, gym, go for a walk, whatever it is, it's encouraging them to do the things that are important to maintain a healthy lifestyle. Now, I do believe in the ED 20 rule because I think community is very important, but not mandating things, but growing that healthy culture. Right. And when you grow that culture, you're going to attract those employees that want to live in that culture.

Erin: What does culture mean to you?

Kelly: Culture? To me, culture, it's basically, to me, the way the people that you attract, it's the environment that you nurture. And that can be a positive environment. It can be a toxic environment. It can be one that's centered around, yeah, maybe it's fun, but unhealthy. So your culture is. It could be one that's just strategically work, work, grind, grind, grind. Or it can be one where it's like, okay, it could be supportive. So your culture is just almost like the vibe that you nurture in your company and the people that you attract to your company.

Erin: Yeah, I think that's very similar to how I would describe it as well. And I would also add how we work together, kind of like the behaviors that we expect and the different team norms and different values that we use to make decisions and all of those things. Right.

Kelly: I agree. Yeah. Values is a big part of culture, I think.

Erin: Yeah, I run into, and you probably run into this as well. Folks are skeptical. Maybe the word only because I hear this a lot. We don't have the time to do XYZ program. We're too busy. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter whether it's like diversity, equity, inclusion, or performance management, even we don't have time for performance management. I'm like, you don't not have time.

Kelly: You don't, no. If you don't have time for performance management, you should be doing double the amount.

Erin: Yeah, seriously. Exactly. But you probably run into that as well, where people are just like, we don't have time for nutritional or to do that, to do health and wellness programming. We're already eating, working through our lunches. We're working late or whatever. What do you tell companies or leaders in companies who have that issue?

Kelly: If you don't have time for a walk, then you should take two walks.

Erin: Yes.

Kelly: We're all busy. But the fact is that if you start taking care of yourself, you will be. And same thing for your employees. They're going to be more creative, they're going to be more efficient, effective. So you'll get more for less and your employees will be more engaged. Because if you don't have time for things like health and wellness, performance management, culture, growing, any of that, if you don't have time for these things, then you're making time for absenteeism. You're making time for presenteeism, which is, I don't know, for any of your listeners if they know what presenteeism is, but that's basically where you're there in body but not in mind. It's the same thing.

Kelly: If you're not making time for health, you're making time for illness, and that's it. So it's in a company's best interest to make time for health, for supporting their employees, for building that culture, or whether supporting your employees is, like you said, through meeting with them, managing them, working with them, helping them with their own health and wellness, supporting them, whether it's mental health, whether it's financial health, whatever, DeI, any of those. If you're not making time for that, well, then you're making time for absenteeism, turnover, presenteeism, lack of focus, lack of creativity. You're making time for having to hire new people, spending money on that.

Erin: Oh, yeah. This isn't just your feelings on the subject. There's so much data that supports this. Yeah, so much data that supports this.

Kelly: There's so much data that supports this. 60% to 75% of not just staff, but also c suite. So all levels have found that work is a barrier to their health and wellness, and they would consider leasing their job for one that better supported their health and wellness. 60% to 75%. That is a huge percentage of the population.

Erin: Oh, yeah. And we know how important it is to retain those important people in our workforce anyways, it's a whole domino effect. Right. And everything's connected.

Kelly: It's in a company's best interest to support their employees. Definitely, yeah.

Erin: Do you believe in work life balance as an entrepreneur, a mom, a blah, blah, blah, like, you've got 1000 things going, you're spinning plates, you're doing the same thing we're all doing here.

Kelly: Yeah. No, I don't believe there's ever 100% perfect balance because you're going to have times that are busier, you're going to have times that are not as busy. And I think I feel that it's never going to be 100% balanced. I mean, if I have a booth at a convention or something, like that. That's a crazy weekend. There is zero balance there.

Erin: Yeah, I know.

Kelly: You know what I'm saying? I mean, it adds up over time and it's probably balanced, but it's never going to be 100% completely balanced at all times. Which, again, is why it's more important to take care of yourself. And when you can take time off. Take time off? Like, I'm taking time off, Christmas time. I'm going to take ten days. Right. I think this is actually going to air in the new year. So I guess I will have taken right during Christmas.

Kelly: But it's like taking that break and I'm going to pretty much unplug and really take a break. And I think you need to do what you can to take care of yourself. You need to build that into your day so that you can be at your best when you need to be, whether it's as a parent or as an employee or an employer or whatever. Self care is very important. But no, I don't truly believe that there is a perfect work life balance. It's trying to find what works best for you at any given time and realize that there's going to be times that are busier and there's going to be times when you can slow down, but when you can slow down. Slow down, like recharge, regenerate. So that during the busy times, you can fire on all cylinders.

Erin: Yeah. Great advice. And I asked that question to a lot of the guests, and I think the answers are all very similar. Even though you probably never listened to the previous episodes, potentially, you guys don't know each other. You do all kinds of different types of things. The one common denominator is pretty much everyone believes in exactly what you said. It's a flow, right? It's an eb and a flow. Yeah.

Erin: And I think we need to kill it dead. The concept of work life balance, wherever that came from, I think it's actually really harmful, because when people strive for an impossible goal, it is incredibly frustrating.

Kelly: Yeah. It's important to know to yourself. I know I've got certain hours of the day where I can be creative because I've got energy, but, I mean, nobody can be creative for 8 hours in a day, like using crazy brain power. I mean, I'm good between nine and maybe two. And then other than that, maybe I'm sending emails or having coffee or learning. You know what I mean? But if I want to do creative work, like blog posts or work on canva or something like that, I've got a window to do it on. And I mean, I know, too now, and this comes with experience. That's the other thing.

Kelly: I mean, you learn things over time, right. But I know now that if I have a booth at a convention, I need to take at least a day or two afterwards off, or else I'm a write off for the rest of the week. And so it's learning to work with your own energy levels when you know, you feel good. And if there's a certain time of the day where it's like, okay, I don't have brain power yet, but I can go to the gym, well, that's a great time to schedule gym time or yoga or hiking or whatever it is that you need to do. So whether you work on a day schedule, like per day schedule or some people are more like on a month, I know a lot of women where men, a lot of times their energy levels peak during a day. With women, it's over a month, which is really interesting. So if you find during this one week in a month, that's your time to be creative, well, that's when you schedule all your creative stuff and you do it then. So learning about yourself, too and when you work best at different things is really valuable.

Erin: That is excellent advice. And, yeah, I've definitely experienced that myself. There's like the day pattern, and then there's this more cyclical, long term cyclical pattern as well. Yes, I think that that message, I hadn't really heard anyone talk about that before. That's a really good message, I think, to get out there.

Kelly: Yeah. Then that way you can work within your energy, and when you feel great.

Erin: You can be very effective. Well, and I mean, a lot of us entrepreneurs are working within different mental health conditions as well. And I think that that more like long term cyclical pattern is relevant for men and women who have certain types of mental health conditions.

Kelly: 100%.

Erin: And that doesn't mean you can't be productive. You just have to give yourself the grace and the understanding to know when you're in an energetic, creative moment, you leverage that. And when you're in a more repressed, sort of like, I need some space and time and I need to be by myself, then you have other kinds of activities you can do at those points in time.

Kelly: Exactly. It doesn't mean that you can't keep moving forward, but maybe that's when you read a book on marketing.

Erin: Yeah, exactly. Or maybe figure out what works for you at different points in time, different energy levels, different personalities. We're not all consistently like the same person from day to day, month to month. I love that.

Kelly: Yeah.

Erin: If there's one thing that you wanted people, if nothing else, that they took away from this conversation, what would that one thing be.

Kelly: For employers? It would be walk the walk. Don't just talk the talk. So work on your own health and wellness and then support your employees health and wellness and grow that culture. For everybody who is struggling with energy, drink water. A lot of times when we're tired, it's because we're actually dehydrated and your brain is made up of like 70% water. So if you're dehydrated, your brain is not going to work on at its maximum capacity. So drink the water.

Erin: That's good advice. Yeah. Awesome. Did you want to quickly pitch your upcoming, I know in January you've got something going on, or January, February, new year.

Kelly: Yeah. So starting in the new year, I'm going to be kind of focusing on new year, new you kind of thing. So it's basically going to be like, let's start the year with a bang. Let's get people energized and back from off the holiday. So I'm actually now booking it. Well, by the time this airs, I'll be probably booking into March, maybe February, March. But I would love to come and help companies with their health and wellness. Whether it's a virtual or live talk or virtual or live cooking demo, it's a lot of fun.

Erin: Do you believe in New Year's resolutions?

Kelly: No, Hard no. Most, I think 70% of New Year's resolutions fail by February. Wow. Yeah. So I believe in creating goals and you want to create smart goals and I believe in taking small steps. The biggest problem with New Year's resolutions is a lot of times they're not done properly. Right. So it's like, I want to lose weight.

Kelly: Right. Well, that's a terrible goal. Your goal should be like, I would like to start going to the gym. If this is what your goal is, start going to the gym three days a week and by the end of the year maintain that habit. You want to focus on smart goals, but the biggest problem is people make these gigantic, unreachable goals that aren't measurable or timely in January and expect that they're going to keep them up and you just can't. You're setting yourself up for failure. So it's better to create a goal and revisit that goal regularly to see if you're maintaining it. And if you're not create, then why not? And either adjust accordingly, or get your button gear and make sure you're attaining it for sure.

Erin: Do you believe in dry January? I have a lot of friends who do this and I find it puzzling, but I'm curious, like, have you heard of this dry January?

Kelly: I've heard of it. My husband actually did dry January, and he has now been dry for two years almost, I think, I want to say. So he kept it up. I believe in it. If you're doing something for the long term, even if it's like, I just want to decrease. Whether it's decrease or completely cut out alcohol, I could see it as like a kick starting kind of thing, but I don't see really any point to it if you're just going to go back to old habits afterwards.

Erin: Yeah, I feel like that can sometimes, especially when it comes to people who struggle with alcoholism. It's almost like that, like, crash diet. I don't know that they're, Albert, really healthy, but I'm not an expert. So the jury is out for me. But I wonder about it. Oh, yeah. Crash diets don't do it. I think that we've all learned our lesson, hopefully there at this point.

Kelly: I agree. I think it's like the crash diet of alcohol. It's like either decide that you're quitting or decreasing and stick with it or not.

Erin: And maybe some folks need help and if they need extra help, do you usually make recommendations there?

Kelly: Yeah, if somebody needs extra help when it comes to alcohol in particular, go to an Al Anon or. No, I think Al Anon is for the mean, get the help that you need. Because the fact is, whether it's alcohol, mental health, nutrition, whatever, there's professionals out there who know how to best help you. And I mean, if you want, like making change in your life can be difficult. It can be very difficult. And so I think it's really important to get what I mean, just as a football player hires a coach or many business people, entrepreneurs, they hire business coaches for your health and wellness. I mean, you have doctors. There's psychiatrists, psychologists, naturopathic doctors.

Kelly: There's so much potential help out there for whatever is going on. Just take the help.

Erin: Yeah. Sometimes I think that we use our purpose driven goals, like our business goals, our life, like these haughty sort of pie in the sky goals to distract ourselves from our just everyday realities. I think sometimes you got to remember just like the building blocks.

Kelly: Yeah. It's the foundations, right? Yeah. I mean, no person's an island. We're meant to be in a community. We're meant to rely on each other and help each other. That's what happened for millennia. And it's only now, in this digital age, really, that you see that less and less. And if we learned anything from COVID it's how much that we need other people.

Kelly: So if you need help, ask for the help. Most people love helping, and one lesson I learned was if someone offers help is because they truly want to, you're not being a pain by accepting their help. They would not offer unless they actually wanted to help. So accept it. Accept the help. That's the way we should be. That's the way our society should be.

Erin: Yeah. You are not an inconvenience.

Kelly: No, that was the word I was looking for. Inconvenience. You are not an inconvenience. They wouldn't offer it if they didn't want to do it.

Erin: Absolutely.

Kelly: Yeah.

Erin: What a great way to end the episode. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Kelly.

Kelly: This was so much fun.

Erin: Yes, 100%. And I look forward to many future conversations. Come on. Anytime you want. Anytime you have something new going on. Kelly, do you have some kind of inspirational quote that you'd like to share for the end of the podcast?

Kelly: I do. I don't know who said this, but you are what you eat. So don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake.

Erin: Don't be fast, cheap, easy, or fake. I love that. Words to live by. Awesome. See you soon, Kelly.

Kelly: All right, talk to you later.

Erin: Thanks again to Kelly Ryan for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. Don't forget to check out Kelly at nerdmomnutrition.com. And on RogersTV on YouTube at Nerd Mom's Kitchen Adventures.

We are gearing up for an amazing season two of weirdos in the workplace, where we're inviting 30 professional problem solvers on the podcast to solve real world problems. And we're gathering those stories from our listeners, just like you and our clients on the challenging scenarios that they're encountering as we speak in real time. If you're looking for help, everything from lead generation to grant writing to preventing legal challenges to retaining your diverse team, to time management to succession planning and whatever else is out there for business owners and business leaders in the workplace, we'll have you covered. Send in your stories to erin@positivist.ca, or you can visit positivist.ca and fill in a form.

That's all for today. As always, stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose leads to more impactful and visionary. And I'm super, super happy to have Robert Smith here with me today. Say hello, Robert.

Robert: Hello, everybody. I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you so much Erin.

Erin: Awesome. So, Robert Smith, not that Robert Smith, this Robert Smith is a respected author, creativity professor, founding member of the RGD, which is the registered graphic designers of Canada, owner of Greenmelon, a creative branding agency. And Robert, you have some very impressive clients, including RCMP, the Mint, Warner Brothers, DC Comics, Farm Boy, and you're the author of Frankenstein, condition, and stop looking for zebras. And I was really excited to read this book here, stop looking for zebras. And I think it's amazing. So what are we going to talk about today?

Robert: Well, today, I think based on your podcast and the themes that you like to speak about, certainly close to my heart is creativity is a career, and creativity in the workplace is certainly something that we need more and more of these days. But it's harder and harder to define and to really grasp and have confidence.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, stay tuned, everybody. All right, we're back. So I'm going to start with what I think of your book, stop looking for zebras, because I read through it and it is a roller coaster. It's a roller coaster. And I really thought by the time I got to the end of it, it felt like a master class in building confidence as a human being. I'm a person who never quite fit in. And so I felt like you were speaking right to my soul.

Erin: So someone like me, from someone who's been through it already, how to gain confidence in yourself and that self mastery and that balance that we're all looking for, that's how it felt to me.

Robert: Excellent. Yeah. And I'm really glad about that. I mean, certainly as an author, you have intentions on what you want people to take away from the book. But the joy is always hearing the various interpretations over the different elements that spoke to different people. And that's one thing that I really enjoy and one thing that's been lovely about this book is that I am getting different things from different people, which is excellent. And I'm glad that it resonated with you. Certainly it is a roller coaster, and it's not a biography by any means.

Robert: It's just observations that I've had throughout my career in the creative industry. And just that realization when I turned 50 that I'm still doing this and I love it. And why because I have seen so many people, colleagues and people that I've worked with and past employees, and that. That really get disenchanted and in some cases, jaded about doing this. And again, I feel so very privileged to be doing this. And as is quoted in the book, after 30 years in the industry, I still get up in the morning energized and excited about what I do. And I want the same for you.

Erin: Yeah. And I feel like it's not just for creative or people who would maybe define themselves as creative people or having a creative career. I really feel like there's something for everyone in this book, and it's transferable to basically anyone, especially people, I think, who've kind of felt like they didn't maybe fit or belong or had a little bit of that rebelliousness inside of them.

Robert: Absolutely. Again, and you know what? Honestly, it's some of the baggage that we still carry with us. I know for myself, it's been my biggest barrier is high school and the experience I had in high school. And to this day, I can still see it creeping in. And writing a book is a good example of that. I still kind of laugh right now, thinking what my english teachers might think. So we get these perceptions that aren't reality, that I can't possibly write a book. And nothing could be further from the truth, really.

Erin: I think that's the rebelliousness in you, though. It's like if someone tells you something that you can't do something, you're going to try to do it, probably 100%.

Robert: That's what my career, I think, is pretty much. I've done some pretty crazy things, and they all stem from that. Oh, yeah. Okay, watch me kind of situation. The last quote I have in the book really is something that resonates with me so much, and almost daily is 20 years from now, you'd be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the things that you did do. And I feel very strongly about that. We all have those moments where we've had an idea or a concept for something, and whether it's a movie story or a book or a product or something, and then inevitably, you're going to see it pop up at some point and think, oh, that was my idea. I totally could have done that.

Robert: But we got in our way and didn't, and somebody else did. And that's the difference.

Erin: Yeah. How do you get motivated to do something like that? That's so outside your comfort zone.

Robert: Yeah. Well, again, part of, as a designer or creative director, I enjoy most is the fact that I'm constantly challenged every client, even though I may have done a winery before or a food product before, each client represents a new opportunity to learn and to dive in. And one thing I found is that when you do your research, when you do your thinking beforehand, the evidence, I'll call it, really presents itself. So there is no such thing as starting from a blank page, because your path is there. And it's just a matter of being observant and seeing those things and pulling out the really salient points or the really interesting things. As the whole point of learning is immersing ourself into something that we don't know about. And in doing that, we've got to simplify it so that we understand it a little bit better. And then the extension of that as a career is then being able to amplify that to an audience.

Robert: And that's really what a lot of us, the value we bring is we bring in that naivete or the uncertainty or the unknown to learn. And for me, that's what I love, is that there's always something new and you can get in your way. I mean, a perfect example of that is a winery I'm working with right now, and it's also a functioning farm. They've got tons of animals, like, they've got peacocks, and they've got horses and pigs and all of this stuff, plus this winery. And they're very enamored with their animals because they wander around the tasting room and that, so you can see all them, which is quite fun. But they were all about, we got to have the animals on our wine labels. And I'm like, I'll be damned if I'm putting barn animals, farm animals on a wine. There's no way, right? And that was my own.

Robert: I'm putting up a barrier, and guess what? I've got a whole line of wine with them, with animals on it. And it's the best labeling that I've done, and I'm so excited. I'm having so much fun doing it. But I put up my there, right?

Erin: Yeah. It's some things that trigger us or challenge us. If we can walk forward through it and push against it and kind of lean into that pressure point or that pain point, it ends up being the most awesome resolution or solution in the end. I used to have a boss who was like, we were constantly butting heads, right? Just like, either too similar or too different in certain ways or whatever. And I always thought, it's so cool how we can just butt heads and constantly be at each other, but then work through it, because we're both like those gritty, resilient type of people. Work through it to the point where we had an aha moment, and all of a sudden we realized that we could both get what we want and create something that was actually way better than either of us could have thought of before. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So I expected humor through this book because you seem kind of funny.

Erin: And, I mean, it's. It is very funny, actually. The book is, there's a lot of kind of, like, subtle sarcasm, and you don't take yourself seriously at all. But it was counterpointed or counterbalanced by so much emotion, like being labeled a disruptive child. That's painful. Talking about the complexity of navigating a career, particularly a creative career, and talking about kind of the five stages of grief. You talk about insecurity, you talk about guilt and the roller coaster of emotions when the creative process, the highs and lows, and creating something from nothing. I wasn't expecting so much emotion.

Erin: So how did that. I'm curious about your emotional evolution over the years through your career.

Robert: Well, I think, again, when you're a designer or writer or even if we go into the fine arts, and that you really are exposing yourself to criticism, and it's become more and more and more as we've moved along and leans quite heavily into the negative a lot of times. And so it's a difficult path, and it's rife with emotion, and you can't go through it and talk about it as a career without involving emotion. I've been teaching for over 20 years, part time college level to third year graduating students. And that's really what I lean into with them, is, okay, you've learned all this stuff, right? Like, you know, illustrator, you know how to layout, you know typography, you know, color theory. This is all cookbook stuff. But what's missing from that is the heart, right? And that's what makes a wonderful meal. It's not just the mechanics. You've got to recognize.

Robert: It didn't appear in zebras. But I wrote an article called positively negative. Whole idea of that is you can't understand hot unless you experience cold. You can't experience sour or understand sour until you've experienced sweet. And therefore, in life, you can't experience true joy if you haven't experienced true negativity or sadness. And so, again, I think that's living life in plateaus and not flatlining your way through and that is one thing I talk about in the book, is the idea of being tragically competent. And I think that translates into life, not just a job. But my point with the job was, if you're just showing up and dialing it in, you've become tragically competent.

Robert: And some people say, well, competent, that's a good thing, isn't it? Well, no, because that means you're doing the minimum. You are doing what's on the paper, and the rest is, well, that's not in my job description, or you're not putting more into it. And when you spend so many hours just to dial something in, it's tragic. And that's why I call it tragically competent, because life should be more, including a job, more about passion. And like you just said, debate is a good part. Right. And that's bringing passion, standing for a point. And in some cases, I'm designing something for a client, and they're trying to pull me in a different direction.

Robert: It's like, okay, the bottom line is my job is to give you what you need, not what you want, and what's going to happen. And I tell my clients this as well. So, look, I'm going to make you uncomfortable. That's my job. Because up till now, you've been comfortable and you've identified that it's not working, so you've hired me. So if I'm not making you uncomfortable, if I'm not taking you into an area of discomfort, then I'm not doing my job and you're wasting your money.

Erin: Yeah. I tell my clients something the same similar. It's like my job isn't to make your life easier right now. It's to make you think so that down the road you'll be really proud of whatever we've created.

Robert: And that comes down to voice and all of these things. Emotion is really important. And I think as well, again, I'm at an age now where it's about mentoring and it's about passing on of knowledge and things like that. And for me, leaning into those things and being transparent is really important. So there's one part that I still kind of like where I talk about all the awards that I'd won and all the acclaim and articles and books and all of that stuff, but I wouldn't let myself translate that into personal wealth, into money. And not that's what this is about. But when you're talking about a career, another quote, if it's not making money, it's an expensive hobby. But my barriers from high school and that of, well, I'm only this good, I'm not going to go further that I found myself sabotaging.

Robert: Whenever that acclaim hit, I'd sabotage it. And it's only later in life that I recognized what I was doing.

Erin: So do you embrace the celebrations now?

Robert: Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:
Yeah, absolutely.

Robert: And you also have to recognize, too, that sometimes you're going to be your only cheerleader for sure. Right? So you've got to get comfortable with that. You can't wait for other people to give you the accolades or to recognize. And some of the stuff that I've done, I take great pride in. And it did what it needed to do for the client, but I didn't get chocolates or anything sent to me by the client or anything like that. And not that I was expecting it, but it's important to take those moments back and go, I really nailed that with this problem, and I just took it to another level and recognize that in yourself and not wait for other people, for sure.

Erin: So you do write a lot about independence, setting boundaries, forging a path. And I think that that's kind of instinctive for a lot of creative people, a lot of people who kind of live a little bit outside of the norms, the normal paths. What you were saying before, I struggled with that, too, was learning how to celebrate, learning that you could be in the spotlight, even just like starting this podcast was like, wildly outside my comfort zone. Like, wildly outside my comfort zone. It was just literally a whim, something that I did one day because it's been something I'd been wanting to do for a long time. Right. Probably similar to when maybe you wrote your first book. I would think you just do it one day.

Erin: But the way that I got out of the path was by eventually getting a lot of community around me. And I'm curious what your thoughts are around community and what you think about that.

Robert: Community is very important, and it's something, again, I do talk a lot about independence because I feel that so many people out there are losing self identity and not really digging into what makes them unique and offering that outward. And so I think that's something that's really important, something I'm writing right now called becoming 3d or three dimensional, and that's missing in job. I get so many people emailing me and ask me, here's my resume, and here's my website, and it doesn't seem to be working. It's like, because it's a resume and it's a website, you're two dimensional, you're flat you're expected, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Robert: Yourself three dimensional in some way. What makes you different? So people can look all the way around. It's not just flat again, that comes from community. For me, my community has been very important because they're incredibly supportive and they're a great sounding board. Book that we see now. Stop looking for zebras is the result of not just me writing in a shed somewhere and then publishing it. It's gone through numerous iterations, and the iterations, I think, made it much better because of the feedback and the thoughts. And 100%, the book is infinitely better because of my collaborator, the illustrator shell, in this case.

Robert: Right. I'm proud of the book. So in my opinion, it was a good book to start with. But then when Shell got involved, I had a couple of illustrations that I knew specifically what I wanted and I told her and the style, and then she sent them back. Like, these are great. I don't know if I got busy or something happened. I said, anyways, here's this chapter. I need an illustration for it.

Robert: And what she came back with, I'm like, I could have never thought that up. And it's brilliant. So from that point on, I think she'd only done about three illustrations for me. From that point on, I just would feed her text, say, you're going, because it just made it so much better.

Erin: Yeah, people make you better, for sure. Have you had any leaders or colleagues that you worked with in the past that just changed the trajectory of or give you an aha moment in your life that you can recall that's vivid to you?

Robert: Well, I mean, it goes as far back as high school again, just really barely, barely graduating. And I had a guidance counselor who knew that I could draw and listen to the fine arts and said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. I'm like, that's awesome. What's a graphic designer? And so I remember vividly he brought out this book and flipped through and started showing me what graphic design was. And I'm like, this is a job. And he's like, yeah, you get paid to do this. He's like, yeah. And that was a turning point for me.

Robert: So moving out of Ottawa, born and raised in Ottawa, but moved out of Ottawa to go to school. And suddenly from a barely passing student to a plus on the president's list and all of those things, wow. I found my calling, but it was because of him. Mr. Bell, if you're out know, guiding.

Erin: Me in that, I have a question. Do you think disruption is ever going to go out of style?

Robert: I hope not. I don't think it will. It's only been getting more and more and more. And certainly that's just a reaction to the times we live in right now, which is the information age and again, the technology age. With AI and things like that coming in, it's becoming more important to differentiate, to be unique, to stand out in the job market as a company, as a product, as an author. When I wrote Frankenstein, I looked at the self help section at a local bookstore and it was like this massive, massive area of books. Why would you write another book? To fit in this noise, right? But it's because of voice. You may be saying the same thing, but in a tone that resonates with a certain group of people.

Robert: So it's no longer the masses, it's more now finding your people or finding your customers or clients people, because you can be relevant to a smaller group and still have a viable business or message. And going with zebras, working with my publisher, they're like, well, we got to niche down because I felt that. I'm glad to hear that you felt that it was not just for designers or whatever.

Erin: No, not at all.

Robert: That was the hope. But my publisher is like, well, no, but you got to define, otherwise nobody's going to find you. So that's the whole thing with this, is finding that hook, whatever it is, that will connect with people and it's disruption. So sometimes it's provocative, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's wacky, sometimes it's witty. It's just knowing the tone.

Erin: Yeah, for sure. In terms of the creative careers, there's been quite a bit of disruption with respect to AI or the fear around AI, or people having premonitions around AI, how that's going to turn out. What's your thoughts on all this?

Robert: Am I allowed to swear?

Erin Patchell: Yes, you can.

Robert: AI is basically shit in, shit out. I like to use an example as 3d printing. Okay? If you've got a shitty file 3d printer, you're going to end up with a blob at the end. You start off with the best file and put it through the 3d printer, it's going to come out lovely, but it's still not done. You've got to sand it down, you've got to carve off the rough edges. You got to paint it and polish it right. So really all AA is doing is building in some efficiencies. And for people who think that it's going to replace the creative process or critical thinking, they're mistaken.

Robert: What they're going to get out the other end again. If you don't have a concept, an idea at the beginning, it's not going to improve at the end. And that's been true forever. Whether it's drawing again, if you don't have a good idea of what you're painting or an inspiration behind your painting, it's just going to be Walmart art regardless. For me, I think AI is great for agencies and things like that because there's certain things, tasks that it takes over for us, like building personas and doing research and things like that. And even at that, I've done some tests on it and there's one thing in particular. It came back with information that was completely wrong.

Erin: Oh, yeah. It can be very creative with the truth.

Robert: That's it. Right. And it's the same thing again with Wikipedia. People use it as the truth, the 100% truth. And it's not. Take it with a grain of salt.

Erin: Yeah. Do you think it is actually going to end up changing the way jobs are either designed, like creative jobs are designed or valued?

Robert: Yeah. And I've already experienced this and that. What we're seeing is people like myself in the creative. And again, it might be writing, it might be, but in the case of design, we're getting involved more at the strategic level now, the executional level, because that's where AI and technology is taking over, is the execution of things. And I'm 100% happy with that because that means I get more time on the strategy, on the creative side of things and then it gets executed. I'm happy to have clients execute things and move them forward as long as it's within the guidelines that I've set. So I think it's a great addition. I'm a huge fan, and it's funny you wouldn't get that reading the book, but I'm a huge fan of technology.

Robert: I've had every iPhone generation, I've got Apple all over here. I've got Bluetooth speakers. Like, I love what that brings. I love that I pick up my phone and I can turn on my record player, my speakers, and start a record. Love that. But it doesn't take away from human experiences because ultimately what we do is we're communicating from person to person, human to human. Computers and programs don't understand that. They don't know that.

Erin: No. A computer can't replace a human's intuition.

Robert: No, exactly.

Erin: Yeah. No, not at all. At least not for a long time. Yeah. Definitely longer than I'm going to be around but what would you want to tell younger people who are coming up with AI? They're growing up with AI. We know that AI is going to change jobs. What would you want to tell them about what their mindset going through this?

Robert: Yeah. So I think, again, it's a progression. It's a constant learning as you get out of high school into college or university or just finding a path is finding yourself. You can't promote yourself until you know yourself, right? It's up to finding yourself based on what is around you or what other people are seeing. It's what is my voice? What do I know? What is important to me? And then you're able to then be external, but you can't do that until you know yourself. So experience creativity or what you love through others eyes, other practitioners and a myriad, because as you go through that, you'll say, oh, I love how they did that, but I don't agree with that stuff. So you'll take what you love from them and something else, and eventually, as you practice, as you move forward, you'll find your voice. And that's where things really come together is when you find your voice.

Robert: But don't lose sight of your hands. Like sketching, playing with play doh, building shit with Lego, all that stuff. That's important. It really, really is. And there's such a push on learning coding and technology and stuff like that, which. But you know, for example, a three year graphic design program, if you spend two and a half years studying technology, the month you graduate, you're out of date because there's been updates, there's been new, and suddenly, like I'm saying, suddenly now AI. So I've got a class last year and the year before who know indesign and illustrator and all these programs inside and out and then suddenly this happens. But if you had spent three years learning mindset, learning thought process, problem solving, improvisational acting, these things, you're going to come out that third year way better off because you can adapt and you can change and you're not so structured, for sure.

Erin: Yeah, I completely agree with that. You become a professional problem solver. Yes, that's right.

Robert: And you're not stuck. I do get some clients that know, actually quite a few that we need you to come in and fix our website. Like, okay, what happened? Well, I hired a web company and I said, okay.

Erin: Oh, yeah, that's your problem.

Robert: And there's nothing wrong. I love web company. I work with them. Right. But when they say a website, they go for the deliverable. Well, that company is excellent at making an SEO friendly, functioning website that is quick and all of these wonderful things speak to anybody because that's not the web company's job. So that's where, again, that deeper understanding is really key.

Erin: 100%. So what is next for you, sir?

Robert: What's next for me?

Erin: Are you going to write another book? You said you were writing another book.

Robert: I'm going to write a screenplay. I want to do a movie.

Erin: Oh, cool.

Robert: But that's long term. Actually, what I'm working on right now is a book called three cushions in a blanket.

Erin: Three cushions in the blanket. Okay. Tell me why.

Robert: For a space to be creative. And it's about how there's so many architects, musicians, writers who have built these sheds or these cabins in the woods, and that they go to to be creative. And you have people who are what I call nomadic creatives, and they go to Starbucks and the library and things like that, but they go away from the house to create. And so I started all off with, remember as kids, all we needed was three cushions and a blanket, and we'd build a fort, and that was our space. We'd bring in a book or a game, sex. And no adults were allowed where there were no rules and we were in charge. And that just changes as we go through, but we lose sight of that. And that's something that I've been very blessed with in creating both my books, is that I've had that, what's called the third space.

Erin: Right, right.

Robert: We've got home, we've got work, and then we've got the place to be creative, the third space. And so that's what I originally called it, the third space. But then when I suddenly went, oh, my God, we did this as kids. That's much more interesting.

Erin: Yeah. And the third space, if we're going to go that far, if it's a fort in your house, the third space can be anywhere, technically, but you have.

Robert: To mentally brand it as that. People at work, at their dining room table, struggle because ten or 15 minutes in, they're standing up and they're walking around. And why? Because that space in their mind has been positioned as a place where we eat and we chat, and now it's quiet and there's no food. Your brain doesn't know what to do with that space. Whereas your office in the house, where there's nothing else in there, just close the door, your brain knows what it's supposed to be doing there subliminally.

Erin: Right, right.

Robert: And that's important. So that's right now.

Erin: I love that. Yeah. And create a team, Norm, around that in your family. My kids know that if I'm on the couch and I've got blankets piled up to here all around me, and I've got my computer here and I'm writing, don't talk to me

Robert: You're in the zone. Don't talk to me.

Erin: Yeah, exactly.

Robert: That is my third point on the op. Or a piece of paper that said no, and I taped it to the door, so when I closed it, whatever. No, that's funny.

Erin: I'm going to use that one, too. That's really great. Awesome. Thanks for joining me, Robert.

Robert: This was wonderful. Thank you so much. It was great.

Erin: I feel like we could have kept talking, but try to keep it to 30, 35 minutes if we can. But you'll have to come back maybe and talk about three cushions in a blanket. We'll have to do a part two, definitely.

Erin: Thanks again to Robert Smith for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. To sum up this episode, I'm going to quote the last page from Robert's new book, Stop Looking For Zebras. "Well, fellow rabble rousers and malcontents, it's time to get to work. Our time is now. It's not the meek who will inherit the earth. It's the disruptors." And from Robert's favorite quote from Mark Twain, "20 years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do." That's all for today.

Erin: Stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist, cast, ca, or on most social media platforms at positivist group. Have a beautiful day at work.

--- 

Find Robert Smith:

Think-Smith - https://www.robertbsmith.ca/

Greenmelon Inc. - https://greenmelon.ca/

Amazon: Buy Stop Looking For Zebras

Hello and welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast where we dive into bringing authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose into the workforce so that weirdos like me and maybe like you can be free to unleash our talents in the world and safe enough to learn how to learn faster. I'm your host, Erin Patchell, and it's a brand new year. Welcome to 2024.

And today we are talking about the importance of pauses, reflections, and celebrations in our lives and our workspaces. Let's start with the present moment that we're sharing together. It's as we approach the end of the year, it's crucial to look back and reflect on our journey. Reflection is not just about reminiscing, it's a powerful tool for growth, according to a study by Harvard Business School.

Setting aside 15 minutes, only 15 minutes at the end of the day to reflect on what was learned will boost your performance and impact your future success. So let's use these moments to assess our victories, our challenges, and the wisdom that we've gained. You've probably all heard that journaling is a great exercise and sometimes life changing for the people who believe in it. But writing isn't for everyone. So I'm going to suggest some alternatives that have similar benefits in terms of self reflection, mindfulness, and emotional processing. So taking voice recordings or voice to text notes instead of writing is great for a lot of people. If you're able to kind of talk stream of consciousness, and even if you're not great at it, it's a skill. So you can actually start.

I remember when I first started doing voice recordings, I absolutely sucked at it. I had to pause it every couple of seconds. I was constantly rewriting it. And then as I got used to the process, it became easier and easier and my thoughts flowed a lot more smoothly. Mind mapping, collaging, or vision boarding. So creating like a visual map that represents your thoughts, feelings, experiences and desires. And I love virtual whiteboards like Miro or mural for this. But I know my sister loves to use paper and cut things out of magazines and do a whole vision board for every year, and I think that's a great way to do it as well.

So you do you walking or movement meditation is fantastic. Taking a mindful walk or doing movement exercises like yoga or Tai Chi can be very reflective. Blogging, music, drawing, building lego or a puzzle. Anything that can help you slow down, focus and ponder. But however you choose to do it, I would definitely encourage you to think about the significant moments from this year. What are you proud of? What are you avoiding? What brings you joy? What grounds you? Who are the people who influenced you this year? Are you going in the direction you want to be going? What will you do differently? How have your moments in 2023 shaped you, for better or worse? And reflections are really important. But just as important, or probably even more important, are celebrations. Celebrations in life or in the workplace are not just about acknowledging the big wins, although that's always nice, too.

They're really about recognizing the small steps in the effort and the journey. And I have to admit, for most of my life, until very recently, I have been literally, like, allergic to celebrations. I didn't like them. I didn't like hugs. I didn't like to accept affection. I shuddered at the thought of being the center of attention. It was a couple of years pre pandemic, so what was it? Probably 2018 or so when I began to consciously try to change this behavior. Because I've been like this my entire life, I wanted to know what it felt like to not avoid something that other people seemed to take great pleasure in.

So we took a family vacation to Mexico back in 2018 with the three kids. And there was something about the warmth of the people and the relaxation of the environment where I felt safe. We're near big bodies of water that always makes me feel happy. Something about the environment triggered something in me. And when I came home, I gave my longtime friend Sarah, who now works with positivist group, a hug. And she will tell you this. She literally thought I was dying. This woman has known me over well.

Now, it's been a long time, but at that time, she'd known me, I think, for like 20 years and never witnessed me willingly give a hug. It was like a hostage situation every time someone tried to give me a hug. So she thought I was dying. And I've come a long way since then. By the way, I like hugs now. I'm a hugger. I know it sounds crazy, just these past few months as well. So in know, speaking of evolution, these past few months talk about getting outside my comfort zone.

I've been training to become an officiate with an organization called Humanist Canada, and this training has profoundly deepened my consciousness of the importance of celebrations. Milestones are important. We humans tend to be forgetful unless we cement something into place in our memories. Most people don't have a space these days anymore outside of work and home, to spend time consistently. It used to be people attended a church or other community involved in the community in other ways. But these days it's changed a lot people are more isolated than they've ever been. And our holidays have evolved into celebrations of consumerism rather than celebrating anything truly meaningful in our lives. Even though a lot of the time we do try, I think a lot of us recognize this and we do try to roll it back every year and try to focus on the things that are important, but not enough.

Heck, in my family we hardly celebrate birthdays. It's just not something that we've ever really been interested in. And we're all kind of similar to me. I'm like the prototypical person in my family. But this year I'm sure that they're all going to love this. But I have vowed to change this and I'm going to roll it back. It's going to take more energy, for sure. But I'm convinced that the energy I spend on planning and celebrating the people that I love is going to transmute and come back to me and come back to us in the form of memories.

And I'd encourage you to entrench those milestones at work and at home with a celebration. Even if it's something simple or unique. Find ways to build new traditions and rituals into your life. And to you folks who are already doing this, well, good for you. Honestly, it's something that I think that we've started to lose. So that you're kind of like one of those anchors in the storm. I think that that's really important and continue doing the amazing work that you're doing. So when we create new traditions, celebrations and rituals through the lens of inclusion, things look a little bit different than they used to.

In recent years, we've witnessed a growing recognition and incorporation of diverse cultural practices into various aspects of our society, and especially in the workplace. This change is part of a broader movement towards inclusivity, respect for diversity, and a deeper understanding of history, tradition and cultural competency. One such practice is the indigenous land acknowledgment. This is a new custom for us, us white colonial folk that is becoming more mainstream in progressive business circles and involves making a statement at the beginning of events, gatherings, or on websites or corporate documents acknowledging the traditional indigenous inhabitants of our land. And it's more than a formality. It is intended to be a profound expression of respect, a step towards reconciliation and a reminder of a long history that predates our modern institutions. And rituals like this exist to help us form our living memories and establish our values into actions. In the decisions that we make, they remind us that we are part of a larger, diverse and historically rich community.

And around the world we're seeing this isn't just indigenous land, acknowledgments or other types of indigenous cultural practices. We're observing all types of cultural practices and celebrations from lunar New Year, Diwali, Juneteenth, celebrating pride month. These practices are bringing to light the diverse stories of our colleagues, and incorporating these celebrations are incredibly enriching. They offer opportunities for education and sharing experiences, building community and belonging. And when an organization takes the time to honor and celebrate different cultures, it sends a powerful message that you are seen and valued and integral as part of this tapestry. Remember, every thread in this tapestry adds strength, beauty and depth. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. This is an and, not an or.

And the third thing that I'm going to chat about today is the art of pausing. In our constant hustle, the art of pausing is often forgotten. Yet it is in these pauses that we find clarity and rejuvenation. Celebrations, rituals are part of the pause. So are as are our reflections. So let's practice this together. Take a deep breath, let go of the hustle, and ask yourself, what do I need right now? Do you need a break? Do you need a moment of gratitude? Do you need a distraction? Do you need silence? Do you need companionship? What do you need? Just breathe. As we close today's episode, I'll leave you with a thought by author and philosopher Alain De Botton.

The largest part of what we call personality is determined by how we've opted to defend ourselves against anxiety and sadness. So remember, it's okay to pause and breathe amidst it all. Thank you for joining me today on weirdos in the workplace. I hope in 2024 we can carry these lessons of reflection, celebration and pauses into our lives. Don't forget, we have four more episodes left in season one, ending January 31, each packed with insights and surprises. Stay tuned, stay weird, and remember, don't stay out of trouble.

[outro]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist.ca, or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup. Have a beautiful day at work.

Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. I'm your favorite weirdo, Erin Patchell today we're taking a moment to reflect on the incredible journey we've had in 2023 and what lies ahead for 2024. And I am so excited. Stay tuned.

Many of you are taking time off with your families for the holidays and celebrating. But even if you were grinding it out, I hope you are finding some time to sprinkle in moments of joy and make memories. I know for many of you you might be struggling with isolation, loneliness, grief, or apathy, and your feelings are valid. And while this year I'm feeling pretty good, I have been there so many times and I hope you'll accept this virtual hug from me, my friend. But taking stock celebrating, reflecting and building community isn't just for this time of the year. It tends to highlight, like the holiday season tends to highlight and magnify what we do have, what we don't have, and what we want. I try to think about gratitude for what I have juxtaposed with the understanding that there are many people out there who don't have and might want what I have. And that thought motivates me to find ways to create these opportunities.

And I'd really encourage everyone, no matter how much you think you have or how much you think you don't have, to really focus on the positive, focus on the gratitude for what you do have. And I hope that that also motivates you to do good in the world as well. But 2023 has been quite the year, hasn't it? We've navigated through some challenging times. We've also witnessed incredible innovation and resilience in the workplace. It's really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that AI has really only been in our lives for a year. This year we've covered in weirdos of the workplace. We've covered a wide array of topics, from fostering inclusive cultures to adapting to hybrid work models, to becoming more disciplined with our habits and so much more. And the amazing part is we still have five more episodes left in season one, wrapping up January 31.

We have some really cool people coming on the show, and the next five episodes really are designed not just to reflect on the year gone by, but also to help prepare us for the exciting journey ahead. It is going to be weird and wonderful in 2024. I think it's going to be a great year, and I hope it's a great year for you. But that's not all. I am super excited to announce season two of weirdos in the workplace will kick off April 3, and we have something special lined up. We are inviting 30 professional problem solvers to the podcast, every person ready to tackle specific challenges that employers face in their businesses. These are real issues given to us by you, our clients, and our listeners. So make sure you send those in, continue to send those in.

And season two is really all about practical and tactical solutions. So whether it's grappling with a remote team management, understanding the nuances of mental health in the workplace, or innovative approaches to employee engagement, we're going to cover it all. Our guests are seasoned prose, from organizational psychologists to hr gurus to tech innovators. And each episode will be a deep dive into a particular challenge, offering insights, strategies, and, most importantly, solutions. Because we need solutions before we wrap up today's episode, I want to take just a brief moment to celebrate the weirdness, the innovation, and the failures that teach us and the successes that drive us. So here's to the weirdos, the ones just like you who think outside the box, challenge the status quo, and who make the workplace not just a good place to work, but a space to grow, learn, thrive, and even heal. So stay tuned for our upcoming episodes as we conclude season one and get ready for an even more exhilarating season two starting April 3. And always remember, stay weird, stay wonderful, and never, ever stay out of trouble.

This is Erin Patchell signing off. Catch you in 2024.

You if you like this episode of Weirdos in the Workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at Positivist.ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup.

Have a beautiful day at work.

Erin: Welcome to weirdos in the workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose and the transformational effect that these can have on our world of work. I'm so excited to welcome back Eleonore Eves. Hello, Eleonore.

Eleonore: Hello, my dear. Thank you for having me back.

Erin: I'm super excited to have you back. If you remember Eleonore, or joined us a couple of months ago talking all about executive presence. Eleonore is a professional, certified executive coach and the founder of Eaves Coaching. And we'll let you know later on how to get a hold of Eleonore, but today we're chatting about McKinsey's Women in the Workplace report for 2023. I believe it's the 9th year that they've put out this report, and someday I will go back and look at all of them and figure out how things have evolved. But they interviewed over 27,000 employees at more than 276 participating organizations. So it's pretty crazy.

And we are going to talk about. We're going to break down the four myths. So there are four myths that they have discussed in this report, and Eleonore and I are going to chat about them. Right, Eleonore?

Eleonore: Can't wait.

Erin: Awesome. Stay tuned.

[intro music]

Erin: Let's get started. What did you think about this report, Eleonore? If you had to kind of sum up your feelings about it?

Eleonore: I actually liked that it addressed a lot of common myths. Right. The four big ones. Because especially with an organization with the clout that McKinsey has, it's lovely to be able to refer back to something like this. Actually, you know, here's the proof. Because a lot of times it just seems like we are making it up. So it's lovely that now there is hard proof.

Erin: Yeah, absolutely. It does seem like there are a lot of preconceived notions about women in the workplace and inclusion and the different metrics that are involved. And I think that, like you say, having a reputable organization like McKinsey kind of benchmarking this, is pretty cool. So I'll just. I'll read out the four myths just to get just at the start, and then we can kind of go through them one by one. But myth number one is women are becoming less ambitious. So if you've heard that before, let it be known, it is a myth.

Erin: Let it be known! Myth number two, the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling. Interesting. What is the reality? Myth number three, microaggressions have a micro impact. Okay. And myth number four, it's mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. All right, let's dig in.

Eleonore: I love this myth. Sorry, I'm just going to dive right into this one.

Eleonore: Yeah, it is probably one of the ones that has aggravated me the absolute most for the longest time, is, well, women are just not trying hard enough. Women are not ambitious enough. There are enough seats, and especially in this day and age, they just don't want it enough. This one has been driving me mental for quite a long time, especially since every woman I coach is far more ambitious and driven than most people I have ever come across. So it has nothing to do with that.

Erin: 100% agreed. In fact, you hear about the mass exodus of women in leadership positions in the workplace, right?

Eleonore: Yes.

Erin: Where do you think they're going?

Eleonore: They're starting their own businesses.

Erin: Starting their own company.

Eleonore: And the proof is in the pudding here, right? I mean, the number of female founded organizations that thrive, that yield better results as far outpaces that of male dominated or male founded ones. Why is that? Because women are clearly ambitious. We meet our goals and we are driven. So to say that they're not ambitious, that's just crazy.

Erin: I would say women are ambitious, but they're probably at least as frustrated as they are ambitious.

Eleonore: 100%. Right. I mean, I, for one, know that I started my own business because I am ambitious, I am driven, and I realize that I can have far greater impact outcomes and even increase my financial earnings by being self employed. So if I'm going to put blood, sweat, and tears into my line of work, which I will do because I am incredibly hardworking, I would like to see something for it that's not crazy. I don't think that's crazy. I don't think that is in any way, shape, or form a negative trait. We applaud men for that. So why wouldn't I do the same thing for my own business?

Erin: Yeah. The article says that nine in ten women under the age of 30 want to be promoted to the next level, and three in four aspire to become senior leaders. Those are astronomical numbers.

Eleonore: Exactly. And I also love that they also broke it down into their workplaces. Whether they are remote, hybrid, or on site, regardless of the actual physical working location, women are still ambitious. Women are still looking for that next promotion, that next leveling up. It doesn't matter. So even tying it into if a woman works from home, if she's working remotely or hybrid, then she's not as dedicated or as driven as one who goes into the office, that's just plain old line. It's a myth.

Erin: Yep. Absolutely. And the article also goes to state, know the flexibility of remote work is supporting women's ambition. Have you seen that also in terms of working with your clients, Eleonore?

Eleonore: Absolutely right. And I know they go into it a little bit further on as to that idea of burnout, right? But when you look at what it does in terms of flexibility for your mental health and your ability to actually work when you are more at your prime, it just makes sense. I, for one, do my best work very late at night. That's just the type of person I am. If I was to go into an office during the daytime, you wouldn't get the best of.

Erin: Did this. We actually created team charter at positivist group, which is my company, that literally says, if you get an email at night, it's because we feel inspired to work at night or motivated to work at night. It's not because you don't have to respond to that email. We are each in charge of our own schedules. We get to work when we can work and when we're inspired to work and when we do our best work, obviously, if we have client meetings and stuff like that, work has to get done when it gets done. But outside of the meetings that are kind of baked into our calendars, we work wherever we want, whenever we want. And that is, I think, that a lot of people, eventually employees, I hope, will be attracted to that as well.

Eleonore: I hope so, too. And, I mean, I think it goes into two critical things, like you mentioned right now, which are burnout, as well as that emotional intelligence factor. Right. So two of my friends that I also think you should speak to on your podcast, Lydia DeFrancesco, and, you know, they both talk about this, of what leads to burnout and what is actual emotional intelligence of a leader, getting the best out of your teams is a smart move. So whatever that looks like, right. In this day and age, especially with the different types of technology available and different time zones that we work in, it makes less and less sense to necessarily be stuck to a rigid structure.

Erin: Yeah, but it does mean that we all have to be responsible for ourselves and our own welfare as well, in a way. Right. We have to know when to draw the boundaries and not get drawn into that culture of. What am I trying to say? Like, that hustle culture, like wanting to kind of one up the one upmanship. Right. It's like I don't have to work just because someone else is working at night.

Eleonore: Exactly. And again, as you said, it's about that culture. Right. What does the organizational culture look like?

Erin: Yeah. And that leads us right into the second myth, which is the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling, aunt. Wrong. The broken rung is the greatest obstacle women face on the path to senior leadership.

Eleonore: Absolutely right.

Erin: Frustration.

Eleonore: Right. Frustration.

Erin: This is where I see this all the time.

Eleonore: Absolutely. I mean, if we don't have that pipeline of talent, what do we expect? People need to be able to climb up the corporate ladder, otherwise, there's no chance. I was very glad that they also discussed the bias. Right. So when one is doing an annual performance review, looking at actually going into the details of why one needs or what the rationale is for giving a person a promotion or for not giving them their percentages for a pay increase, right. A lot of us have worked for for profit corporations where your annual bonus structure is heavily tied to that below a certain percentage. I mean, you're losing money working there, right? You're a pioneer. It has to keep up with cost of living and national inflation rates.

Eleonore: And so if it's not doing that, what is the justification for that? It cannot be biased.

Erin: Why do you think women aren't being promoted, even though, because of the previous myth we busted there, that they desire advancement in the workplace?

Eleonore: I agree with what this report is saying in terms of bias, and especially on page, I want to say, 18 or 19, something like that. They do a really good job of providing a chart. And I know this leans more into the next section of microaggressions, but even just looking at the experiences. Right. So how safe does a person feel? And I know that's an overly simplified and utilized word, but when we look at what does a person need to do in order to, quote unquote, fit in to whatever that is, well, why does a person feel like they have to do that? Clearly because there's a culture or an expectation or a belief that who they are in and of themselves is not good enough.

Erin: The report lists a whole bunch of policies, programs and practices, like best practices in the workplace, that are demonstrated or executed by top performing companies. But yet, so we know what works. We know how to prevent these issues from happening. We know how to promote people. We know how to invest in talent management. We know exactly what we need to do. Why aren't companies doing it?

Eleonore: I think it depends on the company, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Eleonore: Ultimately, there are a number of factors. One could be that it's just lip service. Some companies are not actually invested in doing the hard work. Second reason would be it is hard work. It means actually acknowledging that there is a problem, which is very hard for a lot of people to do. I mean, even in our own lives, how often do we want to acknowledge that we are the prime culprit or cause of a particular problem? We try to find other reasons or justifications why somebody else aggrieved us or whatever. Right. Then comes another factor that even as best as some people, no matter how hard they work at this business, priorities sometimes overtake anything else.

Eleonore: So they want to do the right thing. They think they're going to do the right thing, but they just don't have the time. So again, we're looking at company culture, right? What are the priorities? How is it being measured? What are the benefits of doing the right thing versus what's going to boost your bonus at the end of the year? And then there's also the sad fact that for some people, I'm not going to say it's across the board, but obviously we are humans. We would be foolish not to admit this, but there's human factors at play. If someone is benefiting from a certain system, why would they change it?

Erin: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that one, that's for sure. I think that the business case, maybe we haven't developed a strong enough business case if many leaders have not implemented some of these tools, policies, practices because they believe that they have other priorities in the workplace that supersede these priorities. I just feel like maybe we haven't really done a good job of delivering why it's important to change and how it's going to actually benefit the organization.

Eleonore: Right. And I think it's not a one size fits all approach for that. Right. We have to do a better job of understanding why a person or an organization is saying no. What's driving that? And then addressing that individual specific need. Right. Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

All right, so the third myth, microaggressions have a micro impact. And the reality is microaggressions have a large and lasting impact on. I I'll say something. The other day that we were together, Eleonore, out the other night, and I noticed several microaggressions. I'm not even sure I didn't notice that if I had committed any myself. It's really hard to notice that in yourself, but you can sometimes start to notice them when it happens to other people. Yes. And I noticed a few things that it was starting to because I've been learning more about this lately.

Erin Patchell:

Right. And I'm not going to get specific. I'm going to be very general about this because I don't want to step on any toes, but I will step on toes just privately, for the record, just not publicly. We're going to step on some toes. It'll be on in a private way. But it kind of triggered me to want to include microaggression training in my onboarding, for example.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

I'm like, we need to get this out, the message out more.

Eleonore Eaves:

And I think you're spot on with that, and we see that a lot. Well, first of all, it bothers me too, if we just assume that it's only women who feel the compounding impact of microaggressions. Right. I mean, it happens to everyone and we see it across the board. But the fact that we're not even acknowledging that it is a compounding issue. You let one or two things slide, right. It's that bottling up. Eventually it just gets to you.

Erin Patchell:

It's like the death by 1000 cuts, right?

Eleonore Eaves:

100%, yeah.

Erin Patchell:

Right. And the hardest part about, I think delivering feedback around this is like, people don't. It's not conscious 99% of the time, almost never conscious. Nobody wants, maybe not nobody, but almost nobody wants to hurt another person. We don't want to hurt another person. And a lot of the times when I've seen microaggressions, often they think that they're delivering a compliment. Sometimes.

Eleonore Eaves:

Well, they think they're delivering a compliment. Or they feel very defensive in that state. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Or they're curious. People are curious sometimes, and they don't realize their curiosity is actually creating a very tangible discomfort for somebody.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right, exactly. Or it's passive aggressiveness. Or the individual feels like they have to defend themselves. And so it comes across as a microaggression because they want to get ahead of it. It's that defensive instinct. Right. And again, it all goes back down to the culture of the organization. What is tolerated, what isn't, how are things actually addressed? Is there a system in place to talk about things openly without feeling like as if the person who has been impacted by certain words now has to comfort and support the other person.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. I had a really stupid idea the other day when I was thinking I was in the shower, and I was thinking about this in the shower, because this is what I do. I think about work all the time because it's also my hobby. It's also my hobby now anyways. And this is a crazy idea, but I feel like you've done a lot more education in this area than I have. So tell me how bad this idea is on a scale of one to ten, one being not too crazy bad and ten being like, worst idea ever. Aaron, definitely don't ever do that. Don't implement that.

Erin Patchell:

Don't think about it ever again. Okay, we're going to actually put this out. A safe word. If you hear someone, what if we created, like, a game in our organization, gamify it. If someone says something that is a microaggression or you believe could be a microaggression, you have a safe word. So it pauses the conversation so we can talk about it. Could be like monkey. You know what I mean? Or whatever.

Erin Patchell:

Is that the stupidest idea you've ever heard? Because I'm just like, how do we all agree to pause the conversation in the moment and just say, hold on, I feel like we need to talk about what you just said, but in a way that's not super confronting and getting people's backs up and super defensive. You know what I mean? Aggressive. But in a way we can actually learn something. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah. I love that in that it brings in a little bit of humor. And as you know, I love anything for a good laugh. Right. I'm here for it. And if it makes a person stop and chuckle, sure. My only fear is then that, well, a couple of things. One would be that the person using that safe word is going to be mocked.

Eleonore Eaves:

But also, too, does it really still address the issue of the culture of the organization where they feel like they have to use a safe word versus being able to say, hey, you're out of line.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And just calling it a. And again, you know, looking back at the McKinsey report, the number of times people have to change the way they speak in order to seem softer. Right. We've all done that. Any of us women in leadership positions have had to at times, at least even think about how we're coming across. I mean, I know I've been called a dictator and several other things, which I'm sure not allowed to say on your podcast.

Erin Patchell:

You're allowed to say anything you want for the record.

Eleonore Eaves:

But a lot of us do have to take that moment to stop and think about how the other side is perceiving our words. Is it going to resonate? We no longer have to just think about the quality of our data and what we're putting forward, but also to the tone. And so even on the next page on that report, they go into code switching. Yeah. I'm a black woman who definitely has to code switch a lot. I would be lying if I said I don't. Right?

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. As someone who is ADHD and on the autism spectrum, definitely, I know all about that as well. Like masking right, exactly. Trying to blend in, for sure. That is something that I experienced all the time, and I'm still trying to detangle, and I don't even know where my true self ends and begins. I don't even know who I am. I'm like. I am just an amalgamation.

Erin Patchell:

All the people that have come before me. I literally don't know.

Eleonore Eaves:

But, yeah.

Erin Patchell:

No, I mean, toning down what I say. I don't know if. I think we all have to be political in a certain context. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. What's the difference? Where's the line?

Eleonore Eaves:

Okay. I would say the line is not just in terms of being political, but sometimes I would really have to change the tone of my voice. You see how I've done that right now? This will be the Eleonore who delivers more of a harder dialogue.

Erin Patchell:

Okay. Yeah, I don't do that. I don't think I know how. I don't do that.

Eleonore Eaves:

No. Right? And even here, we're two strong feminists on this podcast. We have our own businesses. We're thriving. And yet how sad is it that even you said you don't even know where you begin and where you end. He's the real Aaron. So if it's that.

Erin Patchell:

Whoever you want me to be, Eleonore, whoever you want me to. Oh, but we. Can we stop saying that?

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. Yeah, but you get what I mean. So even for us, if this is something that's normal for us, what must it be like for people who are still working internally within organizations and who depend on that, needing to fit in for their mental security, for their financial security, to feed their kids, to put a roof over their heads, that could only be exhausting and mentally draining. That just makes no sense. And it's not just even a race based thing. Right? So this self shielding behavior that we're talking about, again, going back to the McKinsey report, even women with disabilities, 49% feel they have to tone down what they say to avoid being unlikable? 49%. Can you imagine?

Erin Patchell:

That's crazy. See, I want to create a company, and I hope that. And this is obviously, like, imperfectly, it's going to happen imperfectly. We're going to do better every day or try to do better every day at doing this. But it's like, create a company where our feelings and our big human emotions are okay. It's okay to say things poorly if the intention is good. Do you know what I mean? You don't have to find the right words for everything. Just say it, even if it sounds bad, if you don't have the right words.

Erin Patchell:

Just say it. It's better just to try to say something. I don't know.

Eleonore Eaves:

I would love to see what that world looks like where a person doesn't use that as an excuse for being a horrible human being.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. I've had lots of creative conflict in my life and at every organization where that was accepted, it was so much better. It was so much better because we could be ourselves. We could argue, we could say our piece, and then we could come to a solution together.

Eleonore Eaves:

But I think that's the real point. There is. Is it a creative conflict, or is it more of an abuse of power or a dominating situation? Right. You need to have a certain level of tension and disagreement in order to improve. No one is perfect from the get go. And there are things where, despite how great we might like to believe each of us are, we will consistently keep failing in different aspects of our life. This is just part of the experience of living. And if we don't, then that's also sad that we're not pushing ourselves.

Eleonore Eaves:

So conflict is okay. It's perfectly fine. But I would say. I would liken it more to, if you have a disagreement with someone you trust, let's say, like a friend, it's fine, because at the end of the day, okay, you might have that disagreement, and it feels horrible at that period of time and all of this, but you know you're still safe. You know the person isn't out to make you, let's say, without a job.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

You trust that you know that the person isn't out to attack you as an individual or looking for ways to see you fail. Just a disagreement. Right. And that's healthy, and that's fine. And I think you raise a great point there, because I think there is a big distinction. I don't think it's healthy either to assume that you'll never have disagreements or conflict. That's where some of the best ideas come from. That's fine.

Eleonore Eaves:

But it's a matter of, is it still a safe environment to raise those disagreements? Sorry. Or do you feel like you have to keep your mouth shut, even when you see the fire? And because you don't want to be seen as being difficult.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, exactly. Like, you should be able to bring your authentic self to work. And if that means that you disagree with someone, that's okay. You can bring that, too. Bring it all with you. Bring all your bags.

Eleonore Eaves:

100%. 100%. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Let's unpack it. Yeah, absolutely.

Eleonore Eaves:

It's like when you go to your friend and you did something horrible in your relationship, and your friend says, oh, my God, you were such an idiot. All right.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

You need to go back and apologize.

Erin Patchell:

I think we've all been there. Come on.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. Right. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I was out of line there.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah, exactly. All right. We hash that out pretty good. Fourth myth, it is mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. Reality. Men and women. I know.

Eleonore Eaves:

Really?

Erin Patchell:

Men and women see flexibility as a top three employee benefit and critical to their company's success.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

It's a human thing. I mean, every single family now, who can survive in this economy without two incomes, tell me that. Like, two good incomes, ideally. I don't know anyone who isn't, like, tag teaming with their partner.

Eleonore Eaves:

Especially if.

Erin Patchell:

You'Ve got kids, man. There is a dance happening.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah, absolutely. And again, even if a person doesn't have kids for sure, how many men kind of go, oh, right. Yeah. There's another way of doing things. I mean, it just boils people down to a gendered based understanding of what feels right for them, even compared to just who are they? Again, when we look at a lot of these. Right. There are a lot of reasons why a person may wish to work from home. I don't have kids.

Eleonore Eaves:

It has nothing to do with that.

Erin Patchell:

No.

Eleonore Eaves:

But as a type of person who's an individual or independent contributor, oftentimes I just get my best work done when I could put my head down and just work away. Right.

Erin Patchell:

Focus. Yeah. We all work best wherever we work best. Whenever we work best. Full stop.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah.

Erin Patchell:

I do think there is an element of, as the complexity of your personal life increases that. It's like the demand for flexibility. I think that may correlate a little bit.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. Yeah. But isn't it also, too, a little bit funny that when a man wants to be at home and take care of his kids and actually play a part in their lives, we applaud him for that. Isn't that wonderful? He wants to be a present parent. And yet for a woman. No.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah. And I struggle with it because I stayed at home with my kids for years, and I did consulting off the side of my desk, and I did a bunch of other things, but I try to encourage that for women. Some of my previous employees have come to me and said they are so happy that I was transparent about the fact that I stayed home with my children for several years.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly.

Erin Patchell:

Three kids. Because it's not known. People don't talk about it. It's almost taboo.

Eleonore Eaves:

Exactly. And when we look at the reasons why a person wants to work from home. Right. There could be a multitude of reasons why. First of all, 69% of mental health is impacted by your manager for people who have work based stresses. Right. So if you think about that. Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

If the work culture or the organizational culture, if you feel like you're not fitting in or there are other stressors there. Yeah. That's a high percentage of individuals who would probably get a lot of work done or do better work if they don't have that additional stress. Which goes back to the entire report previously. The other three myths. Right. And then again, the term of strong organizational culture keeps coming up, and a lot of people throw it around. But again, it goes back to emotional intelligence.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. It goes back to true leadership. And we see constant posts regularly about what is and is not working.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

So back to your first question. What does it take to actually go, right. We understand what works. We understand what doesn't work. And now we're going to actually implement the changes we need to see that suit our organization. That suit our people in order to retain them.

Erin Patchell:

That suit our people. Can we italicize that? You have to get to know your people. You have to know your people to know what's good for your people. Right?

Eleonore Eaves:

100%.

Erin Patchell:

Well, in every organization is different. You're going to have a mix of different philosophies and desires and everything else. So you can't paint it with a broad stroke. You really have to get to know your people.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. Especially for organizations that are massive multinationals and operate in different cities and countries. Each division is going to be completely different. Which makes sense.

Erin Patchell:

100%.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

There are layers. So many layers.

Eleonore Eaves:

Right. So it's understanding how your overall structure and strategies align with the people.

Erin Patchell:

And it's interesting how we usually talk about culture as if it's this one holistic, overarching thing, when really, most of the organizations I work in, they all have a vision. Right? There's an overarching vision. We all know where we're going, where we want to go. We have the same overall desires for the world or whatever it is, social goals, et cetera. But a lot of the time, the culture is very different in different teams. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

Eleonore Eaves:

I don't think. Absolutely.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

I completely agree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right.

Erin Patchell:

So how should we conclude this little podcast of ours today, Eleonore?

Eleonore Eaves:

I mean, I guess a shameless plug for the benefits of coaching to instill better cultural practices within organizations and help them sustain the changes they need to see.

Erin Patchell:

Conveniently, as the day that we're recording this, Wednesday, November 22, literally, my podcast that I posted this day was about building a coaching culture. So please, yes, 1000 times yes. Building a coaching culture is, I think, learning how to be a coach followed only by being coached.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

Followed by coaching your team as a manager, wearing lots of different hats, using some coaching skills. 100%. Yes.

Eleonore Eaves:

Well, exactly. Right. I mean, I think one problem is a lot of organizations just get reports on what needs to be fixed. Right? That's great. There's definitely a need for that. You need to understand what needs to be fixed. You need to understand people. You need to get the data.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. Support that. And then the next step is to do the coaching to ensure that you are able to actually implement those changes. Right. It's that critical next step because obviously what we see time and time and again is at the first little bit of pickup or problem or hurdle. That's the word I'm looking for, hurdle. People naturally go back to what they know because change is difficult. It takes a lot of time and patience and consistency.

Eleonore Eaves:

This is where the coaching comes in. People know what they need to do. But if it's between meeting a deadline to please a client or doing something different that you're still not 100% comfortable doing, I don't blame the person for leaning in on what they do know how to do. Right. They're still meeting their corporate objectives. That's what they're going to do. So this is where the power of coaching comes in, helping them with those transformations that help them with their whole strategy. Right.

Eleonore Eaves:

It's not just an operational metrics or making your people feel valued and good. It's both. And both rise at the same time and again. It's that fallacy of believing that there's only one seat at the table for women. There should be.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And if there isn't, then let's start building the factories to create even more. What did.

Erin Patchell:

Let's see what McKinsey says. I'm scrolling down in the list here. It says, recommendations for companies tracking outcomes for women's representation.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes.

Erin Patchell:

If you don't have scorecards for all your hr metrics, that's for sure. Empowering managers to become effective leaders. We actually talked about this a little bit on the last podcast about sponsorship, and we didn't touch on that today. Did you want to touch on that?

Eleonore Eaves:

Yes. I mean, that's another highly critical aspect. Right. Again, we consistently see that women are overly mentored, but not supported with a sponsor. The difference being that a mentor just speaks to you, and again, that sponsor speaks about you in the rooms you're not yet in. So it's a combination of both that is really critically needed. Right. It's about those networks.

Eleonore Eaves:

And again, this is a benefit of actually going into the office, is that you're building that network, but there are other ways as well to build your network. I mean, I met you at a conference. Right? Simple as that. There are lots of ways to build those human connections, but that's really and truly the most critical part.

Erin Patchell:

Addressing microaggressions head on. So we talked about culture and how to create a culture where people can say what's on their mind and maybe interject or provide feedback, or if you can't do that, maybe a safe word. I don't know, talk about that offline there, Eleonore. Hash that out. Unlocking the full potential of flexible work. Yes. And fixing the broken rung once and for. Hmm.

Erin Patchell:

That one might be the biggest challenge out of all of them.

Eleonore Eaves:

Yeah. But it's so worth it, right? Because, yes, it is probably the hardest one to do, but obviously one of the most important, if you don't have that steady pipeline of talent of individuals and you're not supporting them, then none of the other things matter.

Erin Patchell:

And making sure there's, like, proper representation within your talent management pipeline.

Eleonore Eaves:

Absolutely. And I also love that in one of their other lines, they did mention that it does take time. So assuming that there's also this other false belief that, oh, well, we gave this a year and nothing changed, so, yeah, I guess that wasn't a really good approach. Well, it takes time. Right? It takes time. And you need to make sure that even the people doing the changes, the managers, the people leading their teams, have the supports they need. So not just the women, but everyone across the board, so they actually know how to do this work properly.

Erin Patchell:

Yeah.

Eleonore Eaves:

And so also, too, no one feels alienated. Right. The whole point of this isn't to make anyone dig in their heels and feel like they're being looked down upon or scrutinized or anything like that. That's not how you build consensus. Right. You want to get everyone to buy into this. You need to make it as part of the core of your new company culture. So to do that, everybody needs to buy in.

Eleonore Eaves:

Everybody needs to see the benefits to them to hopefully even change any misconceptions about it. Taking away from their hard earned work or from their rights.

Erin Patchell:

Thank you so much for joining me.

Eleonore Eaves:

Eleonore, thank you so much. I can't wait to speak with you again.

Erin Patchell:

It is always a pleasure. Thanks again to the amazing Eleonore Eve for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. This is our 39th episode and going strong. If you'd like to get a hold of Eleonore, if you're interested in coaching or her consulting services, you can find her@evescoaching.com. Eavescoaching.com. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. San at positivist ca S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup, have a beautiful day at work.

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Visit Eleonore Eaves at eavescoaching.com or info@eavescoaching.com.

Connect with Eleonore on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleonore-eaves.

Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, passion, transparency and purpose in our world of work and the impact that we can make in our organizations today. And today we have an awesome guest with us, Hanieh Khoshkhou. Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace.

Hanieh: Thank you for having me.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. It's our pleasure. And Hanieh is the founder of e-Tree Group, a tech startup focused on custom interactive learning for professional development, onboarding, corporate training and more. She's a lifelong educator and a creator with more than two decades of experience working domestically and internationally. And I got a sneak peek of some of your work and I was very impressed. So I'm really excited today to talk about building a culture of learning and all of the beautiful things that come along with that.

[Intro Music]

Erin: So tell us about yourself, Hanieh, and a little bit about your company as well.

Hanieh: You know, I started off in education. I was teaching in college for a long time in Quebec. I taught at the Cejep level over there, which is the college system. And then from there, I had always wanted to work internationally, so I moved to the Middle East. I was living in Oman, and I was teaching at the teachers college over there, which was wonderful. I got to really expand my knowledge, my overall knowledge, my ability to be able to assimilate to different cultures and teaching abilities. And then once that completed, I came back home to Toronto. I moved to Ottawa.

And then I got to a point where I was like, I no longer necessarily want to teach. So I moved into management. I was managing out in Ottawa at a not for profit, which was equally great. Learned quite a bit over there. And then I also got into a space... I got bitten, Erin, by the entrepreneurial bug. And I was like, I want to create something of my own. I want to do something that, what is my passion? What are the things that I haven't done so far? Right? So I got into entrepreneurship simply because it was something that was like, what next? What do I do? Right? What do I do that brings me passion and joy, right? So hence getting into the tech startup with my company and we focus on, again, there's still the realm of learning and development, but now I do it for companies and organizations and whoever's interested.

So we customize, like you said, we customize interactive learning and we're trying to really change what training and onboarding and professional development looks like in the corporate or not for profit or government looks like.

Erin: That's amazing. What is it that inspires you about your work?

Hanieh: I think one thing that I love, and I'm so happy about is that I'm able to bring all my knowledge in. So I don't just use one aspect of my years of accumulation of knowledge, right? Whether it's my education, I got a master's in education specializing in curriculum development. So whether it's that, whether it's my languages, whether it's my interpersonal skills, I get to use so many different aspects of my knowledge which feel so fulfilling to me. Whether it's multitasking, whether it's being able to manage my severe ADHD, but still be able to go through with everything because I have hyper focus and I can do this and I can manage everything, right? So it's like a combination of everything, which I really enjoy.

Erin: That's awesome. In our previous conversation, we both have adhd, so we talked about all kinds of things, but one of the things that I remember we both were super passionate about is building accessible learning cultures within organizations. Yeah. So have you seen. Let me repeat this. How have you seen cultural influences...the cultural.... I would call it like a cultural revolution that we're in right now. How is that evolving the way that we build learning cultures in organizations?

Hanieh: I think one of the primary examples that I see within that is the wonderful work so many di practitioners are doing being embedded within the learning, right. So something as simple, or it could like something simple, but at the same time powerful when it comes to the images I'm creating for my learning, right. Who am I centering? Right? Who am I representing? How am I being able to show diversity within my work, within the e courses or even presentations or workshops I'm creating, right. That, to me, has been a significant game changer because we are continuously making sure that we are being able to put attention on everyone, to bring the beauty of diversity that we all live through into our work. That, for me, has been a major cultural change.

Erin: That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've seen a little bit of that as well. It seemed like Dei and accessibility were more siloed in a lot of ways, and then lately it's more like it's being woven through, or I guess folks like yourself are trying. You're trying to weave it through. Everything that we do doesn't matter what the training is, what the competency is like weaving diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility practices. It's just becoming more universal, I think, maybe.

Hanieh: And as the designers and as the creators, when you're being mindful of that and when you're present, when you're creating these situations or work, it makes such an impact it makes such an impact. Like, I've had folks outreach to me and say, you know that little thing you did, or I was doing a session and I had a little PowerPoint icon and I was talking about families. And the PowerPoint icon family was a typical heteronormative family. And I said, folks, I just want you to know, I know this is very heteronormative. Right. But families come in all different shapes and sizes and looks, and I want you to know that. That's all I said. Right.

I just want you to know this is what I've had access to when it comes to icons from this particular. This person outreached to me and said, thank you for acknowledging that. That's all it was. Eh, Erin? It wasn't more than that. It was just saying, hey, I acknowledge that there's more folks out here who are families who don't necessarily look like this.

Erin: Absolutely.

Hanieh: And that's what it comes down to in my head, it's like you're acknowledging it. That's like the first step.

Erin: Are there other changes that you've noticed in the last ten years of the evolution in adult learning? Take me through that.

Hanieh:

I think more and more folks are realizing the importance of it, the importance of it when it comes to the bottom line of any company organization. How are you building your team members? How are you constantly showing them that not only do you obviously want them to be there to do their job, but you're also giving them the opportunity to grow. Right. So I think more and more companies and organizations are aware of this, and they want to be able to place themselves in a position where they're like, listen, not only can you come on and work with us, but we also have these different learning opportunities. It's become one of those things where it's one of the things that they will outline in their job descriptions, right? They're like, hey, you can learn. We can give you whatever tuition money for it, or we have access to this, or it's a way for companies to recruit great talent. So more and more, it's become a tool for companies to do so.

Erin: Okay, cool. Yeah, I can see that as a huge benefit. And I think you're right. And I think the millennial generation, the Gen Z generation particularly, are actually really self motivated to learn. If you ran into a potential client who you felt like didn't have that commitment to learning or didn't understand the value of it, what would you tell them? I'm curious.

Hanieh: I would ask them, how are you retaining your employees, other than obviously pay and vacation, how else are you motivating folks to stay with you? How are you evaluating that? When you have your exit interviews with folks, what is their reason for them to leave? Are they growing in their position? Because after a year or two folks have already mastered that specific task or whatever it is that they're doing responsibility. So how are you continuously ensuring your team members to grow? That's huge because it has both short term and long term impacts on the team member. Right. And it direct hit on retention. So those were the questions I'd want to ask in terms of gauging where any company or organization is at. Right. Because a lot of times people will be like, yeah, but people will be like, there's no growth. Well, what does that mean? Growth is for them is, well, am I going to do something else other than this in a year or two? So how do you build the growth?

Erin Patchell: Yeah, well, a lot of the companies or ceos, founders that I talk to, I think a lot of them have an interest in learning, but they don't realize that there's a time commitment. Maybe they realize it, but the commitment hasn't been turned into action yet. Right. And so I love the way that you approach learning, though, in terms of like micro learning and using the available technologies because I think that it can create that learning environment without maximizing efficiency though, as well. Talk to me a little bit about that. How is technology impacting corporate learning right now and how do you see it impacting corporate learning in the future? What's the future of elearning?

Hanieh: I think, of course we have to touch on AI, right? Like the AI is everywhere, everyone's talking about it. I don't think it's necessarily going to completely. It is obviously transforming everything. And a lot of, for example, tools that I personally use have already started to embed AI within the actual tool itself, which is wonderful. I think the important thing about technology and just continuously evolving is how the user, the person creating it is doing it. What is their viewpoint on it? Are they equally growing with the vast speed that everything else is? How are they interpreting it? Because at the end of the day, no matter how much access we all might have to technology, it's the person who's creating it that will ultimately have the final say as to how it's being distributed.

Erin: Right?

Hanieh: Did I go off on that one or, I don't know. Did I answer your question correctly, Erin?

Erin: I mean, there's no correct way to answer any. With, with the technology and e learning, how do you continue to see this evolving down the think.

Hanieh: I think definitely when it comes to accessibility to it, that's a major point with folks. So that just because I might not have access, let's say, to Internet, right. How are my learners being able to engage with it? Just because we have the luxury of we sign in and everything is there, how can we distribute technology to folks who might not necessarily have it? And that's where it's going further, more and more. Right. Making sure, for example, something as simple as we're using Zoom now, in the beginning, it didn't have closed captioning, right? It didn't have closed captioning, but now it does. Right. So it's like making sure that it's being able to serve everyone. That's where it's going.

And more and more people, organizations, companies are aware of that. Like, how am I serving everyone? And it's not just like a group of folks who are able bodied or perfectly capable of understanding certain things. I think that's where we're going when it comes to the future of elearning.

Erin: Awesome. If you had like a big red easy button or like a magic wand.

Hanieh: Yeah.

Erin: Is there, like, one thing that you can think of? You'd be like, if I could just make that happen just by snapping my fingers. Is there anything, any solution that you would create

Hanieh: When it comes to elearning?

Erin: Yeah.

Hanieh: When it comes to elearning, I think a lot of times I find I have to go through multiple tools to have a final product.

Erin: Okay.

Hanieh: Multiple tools. Like, I will edit videos in one place. Sometimes I will edit and take that and put it into another tool where I have my animation. I think being able to kind of do, putting everything together, being able to do all those things in one tool, I love powtoon, for example. Right. That's one of my favorite tools. But I can't get that same animation level in one of my editing tools. I can't. Everything's in there. And with powtoon, I don't get to necessarily edit as extensively as I can with my editing tool. So I think it's just, mind you, it's evolved quite a bit and it's wonderful. I still use it. It's just being able to have everything kind of together.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. I can think of other use cases like that where it'd be like, man, it would be so nice if this was just one big solution, or even if it was like an integrated something or other, having better integrations between products would be great, too. From a user experience standpoint, from the experience of the participants going through your elearning, is there anything that you would just be like if we could just make that happen magically? That would be great.

Hanieh: I'm trying to sprinkle quite a bit of magic as much as possible. I'm trying much, for example, to always have subtitles available. I'd love to be able to also have the option of English, French, always. You know what I mean? Or any other language that necessary within the region. I'd love to be able to have. We had that discussion about being able to help folks, whether it's hard of... blind. Right.

Erin: Vision impairments, hearing impairments.

Hanieh:To be able to, again, support on many. I think just being able to do that just to, again, say, like, hey, I see you. I want you to be a part of this, and I want you to equally go through this experience.

Erin: Right. Yeah, that is tricky. I've been through quite a lot of elearning myself, and I always imagine someone who is vision impaired going through it and how their experience would not be even remotely the same as mine going through it. It would have to be, like, a totally different experience. And it would be nice to be able to make something that's totally interactive somehow, right?

Hanieh: Yeah, for sure. 

Erin: Using as many senses as possible or.

Hanieh: Just being able to flip through. So let's say if it's hearing impairment, vision or whatever, it's ADHD or dyslexia, whatever it is. Right. Just being able to click on that one particular aspect and then having the whole course switch over to support that person. Right. The integration for that would be, like, a lot.

Erin: And right now, that's very complex and very expensive to achieve.

Hanieh: Hence having that magic wand.

Erin: The magic wand, yeah. Someone needs to develop that easy button.

Hanieh: The easy button, yeah.

Erin: Maybe we could do that. Why don't we do that?

Hanieh: I love it. I love it.

Erin: Figure it out. We'll make it happen. Make a new technology. Yes. Awesome. So I still struggle with convincing senior leadership teams to make learning a priority in their organization. Have you found any? Have you developed a really strong business case? Or what do you say to folks who are kind of struggling with this? Their employees are barely able to just get their work done they have no time for.

Hanieh: But at the same time, there's this thing of, like. But we also want you to do the learning right off the side of your desk. I have a couple of suggestions for that. I think one would be to actually embed time throughout the person's day that they have time to do so throughout their work day. Right. So it's not necessarily something they have to do after work or on the weekends, because it's not going to get done. It's simply not possible. We only have a certain amount of hours within a workday.

Hanieh: And to have that specific amount of time is wonderful. Whether it's like seminars, whether it's like one on one, whether it's for them to go through e courses when they have that specific allotted time, it makes wonders. Like, I have a friend who has that time within her organization. Right. It is amazing. And it encourages continuous learning. Right. What if they were to also.

Hanieh: Second option would be, what if they were to incorporate this into their quarterly performance reviews?

Erin: Oh, yeah, let's do it done.

Hanieh: No, but if it's something that, if they really want this done right, then how are they being accountable for it? Right.

Erin: And their managers should be accountable to it, too. Right?

Hanieh: Absolutely. So when it's part of that and you can say, hey, I did this many hours, and these are the results. Then again, the accountability piece is behind it, too. And the third option, which I recently was speaking with a client about this, was let's create like a sponsorship program and by sponsor here, meaning you're going beyond performative actions and you're actually sponsoring someone who, you know, has the skills and the abilities. But hey, here's the door that's actually open that you might not necessarily have access to. Right. So you could do this with your senior executives. Right.

Hanieh: Sponsor a junior member of your team and work with them. What is that skill that needs to get them from a to b or z or whatever. Right. That significantly changes the whole playing field. Now you have boosted their confidence. Now they're learning from one of the C suite. Wow. It really changes things when.

Hanieh: Sorry, like multiple thoughts going. But when folks feel, again, beyond money and time off, when they feel valued, when they feel like there's a sense of strong belonging. Right. This is how you're building your culture, you're building morale.

Erin: And I know you preach the benefits of onboarding, and I think that this is. Yeah. And this is something that a lot of organizations don't do well, and a few of them do it really well. Most of them do it poorly. But in terms of onboarding, what do you think the benefits are to culture specifically?

Hanieh: We'll stay. You need an employee to stay at least 18 months for you to make your money back. Right. Simply because of the whole recruiting process, what you put into the person, you need at least 18 months to be able to make your money back, right? So if you lose someone before then, you're losing money. That's what it comes down. So it's like, how are you supporting this person? How are you making sure they fit in and feel comfortable with everything we're all going through, what we are all navigating nowadays, it goes beyond just that initial, hey, you can come sit with us at lunchtime. It goes beyond that. What kind of plan have you set up for them? Is there some type of a buddy program? Is there some type of a check in system? How are they constantly made to feel like they belong? Right? How are we doing that? It might seem like trivial or really cheesy, but people, at the end of the day, it's, how are you feeling?

Erin: I'd love to talk a little about the project you just told me about right before we started recording. You're launching an e-academy. E-cademy, you called it.

Hanieh: Yeah.

Erin: Tell me all about it.

Hanieh: What's the vision?

Erin: The vision.

Hanieh: So it's going to be e-Tree Academy. Again, I think with everything going on in the world, being able to have access to content where not only are folks learning really good content and they're acquiring new knowledge, but they can see themselves in the SME, they can relate to the SME. They're like, oh, this is this person who maybe looks like me and has the same sort of lived experiences as me, and I can relate to this person and therefore I'm more engaged and interested to hear what they say. I think the beauty of it is that one thing I'm being very intentional about is the areas that I want to develop the e-courses in. So I have five different pillars that I want to touch. I will most definitely share that with you when it gets launched, but I'm going full force. I have access to awesome SMEs subject matter experts.

Erin: That's awesome. Do you also support with synchronous learning, with classroom learning or workshops and things?

Hanieh: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, I also lead workshops again, depending on the company or organization, it's very customized to what their needs are. But I work a lot on different power skills, aka soft skills.

Erin: I love that you said power skills I like because I call them humanistic skills, but I despise soft skills. Like, come on. Yeah, it's like the hardest thing.

Hanieh: And it's always the differentiator between folks who really are able to connect with others. Everyone can acquire the hard skills, right? But it's really these power skills that set you apart, right?

Erin: Yeah.

Hanieh: So that's why I like being able to call it that. And I do lead workshops on that too. And depending on what the company or organization needs, I meet with them and let's do a little quick needs analysis and go from there.

Erin: Awesome. What's your favorite thing to teach?

Hanieh: I like talking about emotional intelligence. I love doing public speaking. Like, how do you public speak? People are petrified. And that's like the number one fear, how to do public speaking. Conflict resolution, giving feedback. I'm doing one in a week on that. Yeah, I can do the topics.

Erin: Yeah, those are great. And they're so important right now. It's like, yeah, we're trying to build continuous improvement learning cultures.

Hanieh: Yes.

Erin: These are so important.

Hanieh: For sure. Yeah, we're all in it together. Don't forget, when we support one another, we grow with one another. That's my biggest thing in life and everything. And let's do more collaboration versus competition. Let's try to be kind and respectful to each other. Like kind of some of the basics. Kind and respectful.

Hanieh: That's where we're at with everything going on.

Erin: Oh my gosh, preach. But the basics are so not basic, right?

Hanieh: No, it's not. It's literally no longer even basic.

Erin: It's like, has it ever been basic?

Hanieh: No. And it will always set you apart. You're never alone in everything you're going through. There's always someone outreach. If you need anything, don't isolate yourself. I know it's really hard. Just like saying all the things right now. Right? But don't forget, you're never alone in this.

Hanieh: And that when we support one another, we grow with one another.

Erin: Awesome. I love that message. Thanks so much for joining me today, Hanieh.

Hanieh: Thank you for having me.

Erin: Thanks again to Hanieh Khoshkhou, the founder of e-Tree Group, for joining me today. And I think it bears repeating. When we support one another, we grow with one another. If you'd like to get a hold of Hanieh or anybody from the e Tree group for custom e learning solutions, you'll be able to find their email address and website address underneath the podcast script today. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. 

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Connect with Hanieh Koshkou at:

hanieh@etreegroup.com 

https://etreegroup.com/

Erin Patchell: All right, everyone, welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose, and all the great things that make our work inspiring and purposeful. And today we have a fantastic guest with us. It's Ange McCabe from Intuity Performance. Ange is the CEO. She's passionate about elevating leaders, business owners, and teams through her whole person performance, coaching, training, and facilitation, and does a lot of other things as well. And I will introduce even more of Ange's bio in a minute. But, Ange, why don't you say hello to everyone and let them know kind of what we're chatting about today?

Ange MacCabe: Fantastic. Yes, I'm Ange McCabe, CEO and co founder of Intuitive Performance. I'm so glad to be here and to chat with you today, Erin, about all things leadership and entrepreneurship. So ready to dive in deep.

Erin Patchell: Fantastic. So drawing from a decade of experience helping individuals and teams in tech, health, and NGOs to reach their fullest potential, ange is here to revolutionize how people lead. She has an innovative AI SaaS platform through which she's championing the next era of emotionally intelligent leaders, equipping them with life changing tools for success and growth. She's a performance coach, ICF certified Facilitator assessor in disc and EQI, and an HR practitioner. Like, tons of awards. You are pretty spectacular. Tell us something that we can't see on your resume.

Ange MacCabe: Thank you, Erin. As you're speaking, I'm like, wow, that sounds so great, and I'm also human. So about me is that I'm fortunate enough to be a mom of an amazing ten year old boy. He's definitely a driver force for me, and my biggest life lesson I'm sure we'll get into in my spare time, I love to coach our under 16 AAA hockey team. And what we do is we focus in on performance habits and emotional intelligence for younger adolescents. So that has been amazing as well. I'm an avid hiker. I live in Nova Scotia, so close to the ocean for all seasons, essentially, and really enjoy spending time connecting with like minded individuals.

Ange MacCabe: So happy to be here.

Erin Patchell: I'm so happy for you to be here. Your work is very inspiring. The fact that you focus on emotional intelligence, and I have a little bit of that in my own background as well. I think that's really interesting that you take that approach. I love that you're working with hockey teams. I'm a hockey mom as well, so I really appreciate that. From that perspective, I'm very curious about what has inspired you to do the work that you do today.

Ange MacCabe: I feel like there's always two facets. Like, people in general, generally speaking, are like onions. Right there's, that professional. Here's what I should say from a PR perspective. And then there's the personal. Here's what really lights my fire. So I'll tell you both in the sense of transparency of your podcast. So knowing essentially what drives me is that I know that myself and my team here at Intuitive Performance and Emotive, Inc.

Ange MacCabe: We're creating something that serves leaders and individuals to be in a better place than they were prior to meeting myself and my team. And that's a thing that really keeps me motivated. It's seeing individuals confidence grow. They're gelling more with teams, there's more success, productivity, et cetera, et cetera. So leaving them in a better space or place than when I found them. What's near and dear to my heart is, of course, my son. Like I said, he's been my largest life lesson and he has really shifted my lens on the world and how I'm perceiving things. I know that you're a mom, too, Aaron, so you could probably attest that your lens motivators.

Ange MacCabe: A lot of that shifts when you have children. And then also hearing him say that he's proud of me and his ability to express himself are my personal measures for success.

Erin Patchell: Oh, yeah. Children change everything through their eyes. Seeing yourself through their eyes kind of just makes you want to become a better person.

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, for sure. But it's kind of traumatizing, too, to be honest. It really is on those days where.

Ange MacCabe: You're just like, I don't really want to adult, Erin. I don't.

Erin Patchell: I sometimes just not I'm just not doing it, so and that's I what.

Ange MacCabe: I started doing when my son turned five, because he's going to be a debater. Absolutely. Like, he already is one now and he questions a lot. And so what I started to do was to tell my son I'm putting myself on a timeout when I know that I've hit a limit and I know that he's just genuinely curious or he wants to push limits so that he can understand cause and effect, all that great stuff. So there's been times where I'm like, how can I really show up for him instead of just thinking about where my head's at right now? So, yeah, I take time out.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. And we do the same thing at work probably, too, right? Because people are people everywhere. We can't get away from them, but we love them. That's the same philosophy, I think, that we both have. And the reason why we do our work is because we love people at the end of the day, and we believe in people and we want the best for people. Absolutely. How has your philosophy evolved over time?

Ange MacCabe: Or has it I think that my philosophy, depending on what we mean by philosophy specifically, but I believe that I have the opportunity to evolve as a person in a continuous manner. It's not just a start and stop journey for me, it's more of that infinity symbol, right? Like, you might take pauses or breaks, maybe sometimes you fall off the wagon, but it's really about looking outwards as to what can we continually grow to be that better person or elevate ourselves. So I'm very much about walking the walk and talking the talk when it comes to that whole emotional intelligence space. So I'm actually in a coaching mentor group right now to continue to advance certifications, et cetera, trying to do something once a year, whether it be CEO group, whether it be looking at different associations to be a part of, et cetera. But personally, what I make sure of is that I have individuals around me that will also speak from a true place of candor. Because it's really important to understand my own learning edges, not just from my own lens. But to your point that you said how you see yourself and your children, you can also see yourself as a CEO amongst your team. And so really building that safe culture to get feedback for people to identify the things that they love and the things that I have an area of growth and accepting the same, I think that's what continuously helps me to elevate.

Ange MacCabe: And that's kind of my philosophy around evolving, essentially. So from a business perspective, I feel like in the first year, you're really just focusing on building that thing. It's not so much about how am I showing up, but how can I survive? And for our situation, we opened our doors a week to the day, the first round of COVID essentially. So resiliency and grit were the theme of our first year. And it panned out well for us. We're really excited, fortunate, abundant with opportunities. So for us, it's really focusing in on things like making sure now to look at things from a more strategic perspective. And then I also feel like we're straddling not just strategy, but how am I showing up or how am I growing as a CEO? Right? Because essentially my thought process is I want to work myself out of a quote unquote job, definitely to be able to really impact a larger amount of people.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. I'm curious if you had a moment or a series of moments where you realized that your philosophy was around this kind of continuous improvement concept, did you have any AHA moments?

Ange MacCabe: That's a great question, a great follow up question. I feel like I stumbled through it, to be totally honest with you. It was like, okay, here's a learning opportunity. Okay, I got humbled. Okay, I was celebrated here. But it really became intentional for me when I started asking myself the question, what is my purpose? And that was when I was in my late 20s ish So still working, still full time employed. And I started questioning a lot of things like, is this the right place for me? Is this the job that I love? What do I want to be when I grow up and just surrounding myself with different topics or areas of interest to express my growth. So for me, I would say that light bulb turned on probably around 29, 30.

Erin Patchell: As an entrepreneur, I'm going to move on to the entrepreneurial talk because you're the CEO of Intuity Performance. I'm an entrepreneur. We have a few things in common that way. For me, I have no sense of balance whatsoever. There's nothing in my life that is balanced. I try to practice integration as much as I can, so if I have something going on the day, there's no shame, I do the thing. If it's personal, whatever. If I want to have a nap, I can.

Erin Patchell: A lot of the time I am working weekends, I am working evenings, I'll work whenever I'm inspired, et cetera, et cetera. But I am curious about other entrepreneurs kind of modus operandi when it comes to this sort of thing. What's your philosophy around balance?

Ange MacCabe: Quite similar, like you're saying a lot of the same words. And I would add that I think we need to omit the word balance because it's an unrealistic expectation that things are going to be equally weighed so that something doesn't fall. And then what happens? Right? Our imposter comes up. We're hard on ourselves, almost critic, et cetera, et and that really happened to me in my first year of business. And I hit, like I would say, a semi burnout. It wasn't like a full burnout, but I was putting too much pressure on myself. I could see my son turning more to his NAN for help, et cetera, et cetera. And that slowed me down to look at it from the perspective of, hey, there's more to life than just work or that purpose.

Ange MacCabe: It's really about integration. And in the first year it was funny because I treated myself like an employee. Like, I clocked in at seven in the morning and I clocked out at five, and then when my son went to bed, I was clocking back in at eight and then clocking out at ten. And so it took me a while to understand that whole concept of integration, but I think I have it down somewhat pat now in a sense that it's really about the opportunity of looking at things based on priorities. And so I've been more disciplined in understanding, okay, what are the top three priorities that I have for my passion? I e work for that week? What are the top three priorities that I have for my health? Making sure that I'm sleeping, eating, exercising when can and then, of course, family. So obviously I'm human. There's definitely opportunities for growth and further integration, but it's something that I try to keep top of mind or live to myself often, so I don't lose sight of that.

Erin Patchell: So integrating the concept of emotional intelligence into we feel, how do you feel know as your emotional intelligence of you're gaining a maturity?

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely. Absolutely. That's on point, Erin, in the sense that when you have higher levels of emotional intelligence, whether organically, stumbled upon or intentionally, you have lower levels of stress, higher levels of confidence, and you're able to manage things from a place of pressure versus stress. So that's one piece of it. The other piece of it, too, is the level of empathy I have for myself is substantive now than it ever has been. And when I say that, it's not like, oh, poor me, I deserve something. It's more so like, hey, you know what? You gave that your best shot. Here's what you can learn from it.

Ange MacCabe: When we're rested, we'll go back to this. Right? So it's multifaceted in the sense of when you focus on emotional intelligence and its growth, it seeps not just into your professional world or leadership or athleticism, but also your personal life. And then it impacts the way that you parent. It impacts the way that you partner with your loved ones, et cetera.

Erin Patchell: I would like to talk about your SaaS platform. Is there something you're willing to talk about?

Ange MacCabe: So in full transparency, we're currently at our MVP stage, Motive. So the company name is Motive Inc. And what we're doing is we're looking to develop emotionally intelligent humans. And the whole premise of this concept is that we're going to be hopefully, knock on wood first to market with an actual emotional intelligence AI coach. And that's not to replace coaching, but rather to utilize it as a strong tool with coaches. So the intention is that instead of growing, which we know statistically and have experienced with many of our clients over the past three, four years, of an increased delta of emotional intelligence when you focus on it. So meaning that you can grow your emotional intelligence or the subsectors by 20% kind of geeking out here, Aaron. So tell me if I'm going too far offline here.

Erin Patchell: We are a full geek here. Don't worry. Keep going.

Ange MacCabe: Okay! So, noticing that basically you can grow your emotional intelligence if you focus on it through the year or consistently, I should say. What would that habit look like if it was powered by AI? And what we've seen in testing so far, we're in the alpha testing stage of a demo type thing. And what we're seeing is that what we could coach in an hour can be accomplished in 15 minutes. And it's not to say that we want to speed through things or take away the quality, but rather it gives a very safe space in the sense of knowing that only your coach is going to see this. It gives you almost a playground. And then also, too, it's going to give accessibility to people that normally wouldn't have the means or knowhow with a coach because we strongly feel that everybody should have the opportunity to have access to a coach. Right? So we're really inspired and excited about it, humbled by the tech journey and can't wait to break into the community and really spread our wings there.

Erin Patchell: Well, I will advocate for this. You just let me know how I can help because I think this sounds amazing. Seriously, what's the lead time look like to market here? What are you looking at?

Ange MacCabe: So right now we're bootstrapping it. So TBD, if I'm being totally transparent, hoping that we have maybe some listeners or some individuals that are super excited to help us get off the ground, because we're really looking to minimize risk around costs and expedite delivery. Because we know that there's a lot of people in the market right now looking at doing similar, if not the same things.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so funding. You're looking for funding? Awesome. Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, let's put it out there. We're looking for funding. Does not hurt to... I think this is like, you know, I'm a coach, I'm an emotional intelligence practitioner. I also have a husband who's in software technology, and I'm very interested and curious about it. Although I don't do a whole lot of work on the tech side of things, I'm an avid user of technology. So I think this could be very cool. And I love micro learning platforms, which it sound like this is kind of a bit of a micro learning platform, right?

Ange MacCabe: Absolutely. So, for example, a lot of coaching clients will come to intuitive performance to talk about, how do I be a better leader? So it's like this big global question of leader identity. And when we break it down, it's things like those micro learnings how to have difficult conversations. Let's use that for an example. So the AI coach, in between coaching sessions, or even on its own, can help that person take the time and pause and partner with them to ask the appropriate questions based on their profile, past coaching sessions, et cetera, so that they can really start to walk through on their own. That micro learning of difficult conversations because everyone's different in the sense of what is your definition of a difficult conversation and what's difficult for you. So the AI coach will help you unpack that and then also provide appropriate recommendations.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. In real time. In real time, yes, absolutely. I'm having a difficult conversation in five minutes. Shit.

Ange MacCabe: Yes, absolutely. 

Erin Patchell: Yeah. That's brilliant. And much better, I think, than what you could ever hope to get from any of the other AI tools that are currently out there.

Ange MacCabe: Thank you.

Erin Patchell: Very cool.

Ange MacCabe: So we're hoping to hit all 27 eIQ skills, which hasn't been done yet. We know that there's movement in empathy in the healthcare world. There might be some other studies that are out there. Hit me up at Amaccabe@intuitiveperformance.com. If there is, I would love to hear about it. But all this to say is, like, whatever you're going through as a leader, as an athlete, as a woman in leadership, this AI app will help you elevate those skill sets, communication, confidence, understanding, cause and effect. Right. Like, if I say this to Aaron, what does that mean? Because in some circumstances, we don't have a few of those eIQ quotants raised high enough to understand how I'm going to impact someone.

Erin Patchell: I could see this being useful for cultural competency as well.

Ange MacCabe: Oooh.

Erin Patchell: Isn't that a big one?

Ange MacCabe: Yes.

Erin Patchell: If I'm talking to a person and we know that they have a certain cultural context, I can easily see the AI tool being able to handle something like that.

Ange MacCabe: I love that. I think that's beautiful.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. So I guess that leads me to my last question, my last official question. Who knows where the heck we'll go? But how can we build truly inclusive and accessible workplaces - and accessibility, especially because I was recently at an event in Ottawa called Policy Talks and it was all about accessibility in workplace.

Ange MacCabe: Yes.

Erin Patchell: And one of the statistics they threw out there was that while 90% of organizations have some kind of either DEI strategy or DEI objectives, almost only 4% have accessibility included as part of those DEI objectives... which I thought was crazy.

Ange MacCabe: That is crazy.

Erin Patchell: Yeah.

Ange MacCabe: And curious to understand. So when you're talking about accessibility, are you talking about physical accessibility to the workplace?

Erin Patchell: Physical accessibility would be one of the components.

Ange MacCabe: Okay, tell me more.

Erin Patchell: Well, that's a good question. I don't have any more than that. [laughs]

That's the statistic. Well, okay. I can tell you how I would define yeah. In terms of accessibility, for me, it's strength based work environments, building work environments where we can spend more time in our flow states. And we have folks around us who can with complementary skill sets, complementary personalities that can help us and support us in different types of work so we're more focused on what we do well, but then we have other people around us who can help balance us out. There's the cultural component as well in terms of the bums and seats aspect.

Right. Not everyone works well from an office, from nine to five. We all have to adapt. So having a more adaptive work environment or a results only work environment is big part of accessibility as well, and inclusion. And then, of course, the physical work environment and having accessible tools. Accessibility to tools.

Ange MacCabe: Right.

Erin Patchell: Yeah.

Ange MacCabe: It's definitely a deep topic, Erin, in the sense of layering that onion to speak to it on its face, in the sense of physical accessibility, it's really making sure that organizations understand that people are the largest asset that they have. And if the writing is on the wall that we are accessible, then how that shows up in the workplace is if not replicated, but the same in a sense that the way that the bathrooms are designed or the way that there's access or egress from buildings, et cetera, et cetera. From a cultural perspective, I have a different opinion or viewpoint on it. When it comes to the people and culture side of things and addressing DEI, it's extremely important and I think that there's some subcategories that we're really hitting on, but there's not enough attention. And here's why. I actually had the lens lifted for me because originally my thought process was, well, if we increase emotional intelligence, a lot of the cultural pieces will open up for us. Right? And that's not a favorite opinion that's out there right now. And the reason why I say that is because if we understand ourselves and our beliefs and our biases, it makes it a heck of a lot easier to then try to empathize and understand someone else.

Ange MacCabe: So communication improves. I'm preaching to the choir. I know this Erin. Right? So I'm really passionate about that piece of it. And I stumbled upon an individual on my podcast, and she's in DEI for Harvard Business Review. And we went into the green room thereafter, and I hesitated in having a debate about emotional intelligence being the crooks of cultural competency and opening up that DEI framework.

Erin Patchell: Really?

Ange MacCabe: So it's not just a checklist, because that's what kind of saddens my soul is. A lot of companies want to do well with it, but they don't know what to do, so therefore it turns into a checklist, and then wrong assumptions can be created and or made. So my eyes were open, and the door is blown off for me because what I didn't realize is that organizations aren't looking at their current processes and procedures to identify is there systemic things in here that prevents cultural competency or diversity, equity and inclusion. And so I think it's two pronged. One, from an operational perspective, it's really getting honest and open within organizations to understand our processes and what is the lens on culture. Right? So in that particular example, in some circumstances, they had publicated more white written articles for HBR than African American or black. Right. So that's a systemic thing.

Ange MacCabe: So what do they need to to instead of just raise it up, they need to change the way that they're doing the operations and the way that they're looking at things and does it make sense and what are the topics that they're writing about? And by the way, there needs to be a Quotant where there's equity in the types or the diversity of authors that are being put forth. And that's the great work that they're doing. And I totally am behind that and subscribe to it because it's important to look at your operations as well as the people behind your operations. So we have that eIQ perspective and a different look at operations. I think to me that's what really DEI and accessibility ought to look like, because that falls into the psychological safe environment and starting to think more innovative. Because if you don't have trust and your roots there, you can try as hard as you want and throw tools and processes at things. You're not going to get any further ahead with innovation.

Erin Patchell: Everything's connected.

Ange MacCabe: Definitely, yeah.

Erin Patchell: It's interesting because I'm terrible at focusing. I have ADHD, and I'm kind of all over the place, but in my mind, everything's a contingency. Everything's connected, and you just very eloquently, I think, described a big part of that in terms of the dei and accessibility. So how all of those little pieces are connected. Yeah. Thanks for that.

Ange MacCabe: Oh, my pleasure.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so if folks are listening to this today, and they would like to get a hold of you and they have any questions about any of your work or your podcast and what's your podcast called again? Remind me?

Ange MacCabe: Our podcast is The Human Side of Business Podcast.

Erin Patchell: Amazing. The Human Side of Business. I love that. So your work The Human Side of Business Podcast, or even if they're interested in your AI SaaS platform, which they should be for anyone listening, how can they get a hold of you?

Ange MacCabe: Yeah, for sure. So they can find me on LinkedIn under Ange MacCabe or they can email me at info@intuityperformance.com.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. And I will include the links. If you look in the bottom of the podcast script, I'll include some links as well, in case anyone is looking for. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Ange MacCabe: Yes, my pleasure. Erin and I look forward to continuing chatting.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely, yes.

Ange MacCabe: Take good care, everyone.

Erin Patchell: Thanks again to Ange McCabe for coming on the show. She is absolutely wonderful. Definitely check her out at intuitiveperformance.ca. For the end of this episode. I was looking for a quote that inspired me. And this is what it is by Ralph Marston. "Your destiny is to fulfill those things upon which you focused most intently, so choose to keep your focus on that which is truly magnificent, beautiful, uplifting, and joyful."

That's it for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[Outro Music]

Erin Patchell:  If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts Spotify or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist. CA P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T CA. Or on most social media platforms at Positivist Group. Have a beautiful day at work.

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Follow Ange MacCabe at:

https://www.intuityperformance.com

https://www.linkedin.com/company/intuity-performance/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/ange-maccabe-67a07616/

Erin Patchell: Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. Today we have Aaron Arkin with us. Say hello, Aaron.

Aaron Arkin: Hello.

Erin Patchell: Aaron is the Director of Insomnia services with Careica Health. He's also a registered psychotherapist and registered polysomnographic technologist and focuses on behavioral sleep issues such as insomnia. Aaron uses a number of tools, including cognitive behavioral therapy or CBT to help people overcome sleep problems. And Aaron, this couldn't come at a better time because I'm exhausted and I haven't been sleeping well these last couple of weeks. Definitely not as well as I should be, and so this conversation couldn't be more timely.

Aaron Arkin: Good. Well, I'm glad to help. I know a guy.

Erin Patchell: You know a guy? Yeah, you know a few guys, probably, and gals. And I know this isn't just a relevant conversation for me, but definitely as well for a lot of the other folks who listen to this podcast, who are regular folks, entrepreneurs, business leaders, it doesn't seem to matter. I think we all have an enormous amount of stress on our plates these days, and getting good sleep is, I think, the foundation, and I think you probably agree.

[Intro Music]

Aaron Arkin: Wouldn't argue with that. And one thing that I always say about sleep is that there really isn't a population that's exempt from having sleep issues. There's no age, gender, socioeconomic status, profession that's going to prevent you from having an issue with your sleep at some point in your life. So it is really quite universal, and everybody sleeps, and many people at times have problems with their sleep, and often they go unrecognized, or at least untreated.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. So tell us a little bit about yourself and something that I can't find on your resume or in your bio.

Aaron Arkin: Sure. I've been in the industry for quite a while. I started down this road as an academic. I was a psychology major, and I signed up for a third year psychology course in research in psychology, where they would pair you with a professor and you would learn how to go about doing psychological research.

And the professor who they paired me with and this was at Trent University when I was an undergraduate there, studied the relationship of sleep to learning in memory, something I knew nothing about and I found so fascinating. I read everything I possibly could, and I learned so much about this mystical world of sleep and its relationship to memory. And ever since then, I've been hooked. 

I finished a fourth year thesis. I found work in my field fairly quickly after I graduated, and I've been pretty immersed in the field since 1998 now.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, I can tell that you have a real passion for this topic.

Aaron Arkin: It's interesting. It's interesting to me, but it's also pretty universal. As I had mentioned earlier, I can't go to a social event without somebody finding out what it is that I do professionally that doesn't bombard me with questions. And I love talking about it because part of my mandate is to educate and make people aware of the issues of sleep and how we can help people sleep better.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. I always feel bad being that person when I'm at networking events and I find there's a doctor or someone like yourself who's an expert and you just can't help it going down that rabbit hole. But... glad to hear that you're not totally opposed to it.

Aaron Arkin: Absolutely not. No, I enjoy doing it. It just makes me better at talking about it. And if it makes the difference with somebody learning a little more about their sleep and how they can help sleep better to improve their daytime performance, then why not?

Erin Patchell: Awesome. So what are the typical challenges that you see for people like me. Like regular folks or people who think they're regular folks. What kind of work do you do on the regular?

Aaron Arkin: So I find the challenges are twofold. So there's almost like a systemic challenge where people that I work with or people who have discussions about sleep, most people don't really and I don't want this to sound with any conceit, but people don't really know very much about their sleep. They go into a bed, they close their eyes, hopefully something happens, and then seven or 8 hours later they get out of bed and off they go.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, we're generally unconscious, literally.

Aaron Arkin: Exactly. Well, conscious is a whole different can of worms which we'll talk about.

Erin Patchell: Fair enough.

Aaron Arkin: But the more that you can educate people about the basics of sleep and the processes that affect our sleep and how much you should be getting and what influences our sleep, the more you can explain people to people how it works. The more of an understanding that they have and the easier it is for them to be able to make some of the positive changes in this behavior.

So conceptually, that's one of the challenges that I meet with people. And then at a more personal level, one of the things that I find, or at least some of the most common symptoms of people that I work with are people who either have a hard time falling asleep, returning to sleep after an awakening and maintaining their sleep, or ruminating thoughts towards sleep. They lie in bed and they can't turn their mind off or it's after dinner, it's 8-9:00. They're getting a little bit anxious about having to go to sleep if they know they're not going to sleep well. Those are some of the common complaints of people that I see.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, it's true that when you get into that vicious cycle, there can be a lot of emotions around that for sure. And a lot of anxiety. I've definitely felt that myself, where it's like a trepidation, like am I going to sleep tonight? Is something going to wake me up? For sure. And the older I get and with changing hormones and things like that as well. I think that there's a lot of factors... children and all the things that we deal with.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly, and that's very common. And that's another thing that some people aren't necessarily aware of, is how common some of these sleep issues are. People find that they have this problem and that they're unique or that they're on this island and no one else has these same issues and no one can really help them with it. But that's really far from the truth.

Not to brag, although I'm going to brag. I'm an excellent sleeper. I crawl into bed, I lie down, I'm very comfortable, I don't have fancy pillows or fancy sheets or anything like that. And I drift off to sleep fairly effortlessly.

And that effortlessness is what people should be experiencing with their sleep. They shouldn't have to try to sleep. The harder you try to do it, the more challenging it becomes. It should be effortless, and that's how we would be receiving the benefit of the behavior of sleep.

Erin Patchell: So, how does the quality of sleep I mean, our podcast is generally about leadership development, learning, workplace challenges. So, how does the quality of your sleep influence your ability to perform, learn, adapt or thrive in a professional environment, would you say?

Aaron Arkin: I think it's probably, if not the most important component of being able to do so. Because if you don't sleep well, if you have poor quality sleep, the issues you'll experience during the day are deficits in mood and performance. And it's those deficits that make it more challenging for you to be at your best during the day. One of the functions of sleep is to do exactly that is to fuel your daytime performance. You're supposed to get good quality sleep at night, which leads to improved daytime performance. So you can be the best that you can be, tire yourself out, crawl into bed, get some sleep, get some good quality sleep, and do the same thing over again the next day as consistently as you possibly can. It's the sleep that fuels that daytime performance. And when you don't sleep well or you don't achieve that good quality sleep, that's where you'll see the deficits in the performance and in the mood the next day.

Erin Patchell: Do you typically get a lot of professionals who are working with you?

Aaron Arkin: It's really hard to say. It does run the gamut. I've seen clinical psychology professors that will seek my help, or physicians. So again, there's no real pigeonhole in terms of who it is that comes to see me. I do find that my client base does skew a little more female than male. Whether that's because females are more likely to seek help for some of these issues, perhaps I'm not entirely certain.

But there's no again age, socioeconomic status, profession, stage of life where someone is that I tend to see most often. I do see a lot of younger mothers with younger children as often as I'll see retired folks, as much as I'll see 20 somethings that are either between jobs or finish school and just starting a career and are having to adjust. So again, there's really no one who's exempt.

Erin Patchell: I wonder what prevents somebody or why don't we talk about this more? When I had the idea to have you on the podcast, it was because I hardly ever hear about this when it comes to in other podcasts, in conversation, in the trainings that we do in corporate training, rarely do we talk about sleep and it feels like I think you said earlier, it feels like it's such an important building block. Maybe it's the building block. So why do you think we don't talk about it?

Aaron Arkin: A tough question to answer, but it's often something that we don't necessarily pay much attention to or if we find that we're deficient in it, it's not necessarily something that we seek help for. Oftentimes you'll hear about the three pillars of health being diet, exercise and sleep. And most people are familiar enough with how to eat properly. No one's eating a cheeseburger thinking that they're eating really well. Most people understand the importance of physical activity and to be fit and to be active. But that third pillar, the sleep, seems to really get swept under the rug a little bit and slowly but surely I think we're starting to see an increase in the intention to people recognizing their sleep and part of that is due to technology. But I think the more that we can start to look at this, especially from a primary care level, the more we'll start to see some increased benefits from it.

Erin Patchell: I can kind of understand if someone has sleep apnea that that might be more difficult to understand or unravel or to diagnose potentially. But something like insomnia, which is where you work, it seems like you kind of have insomnia or you don't have insomnia to me. Is that true? Wouldn't you be able to self identify that a little bit more easily?

Aaron Arkin: True. One of the clinical definitions of insomnia is someone who has difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, returning to sleep three times a week for a period of three months. Interesting, which is a fairly vague description or definition. I'm of the mindset that if you don't feel that you're sleeping well or if you feel that you don't see the benefit of a night of sleep and you're dragging during the day, you're not at your best during the day. That's reason enough. You don't necessarily need a clinical diagnosis to decide to get in shape and join a gym. You don't necessarily need a clinical diagnosis to decide, you know what, I'm going to eat more healthily and I'm going to see a nutritionist or dietitian.

Same reason if you don't think that you're sleeping well, that should be reason enough to seek help. Something like obstructive sleep apnea, which is a physical sleep disorder. There's some great ways to diagnose it fairly simply done. There's some fantastic treatments out there, and we can see the difference with that fairly quickly. With something like insomnia, which is more of a behavioral sleep issue, I can't flick a switch or push a button and make it better tomorrow. It takes a little bit of time, but through the programs that we put together, the idea is not only to help your sleep in the short term, but to educate people on the strategies and techniques and skills so they can utilize those same strategies six months, five years down the road if they have similar issues that might come up again.

Erin Patchell: I mean, by that definition, I bet there are so many people listening to this, thinking I meet those criteria and I would never have considered myself to have insomnia. I'm probably up there for sure. It never would have crossed my mind.

Aaron Arkin: The numbers are pretty stark. A study came out from the Strong researchers in Quebec who determined that upwards of 60% of people who visit their family doctor display signs or symptoms of having insomnia. Part of the challenge is having our physicians ask those questions. Not only that, but also knowing how to treat them properly. Because prescribing somebody a sleeping pill isn't the recommended treatment for people that are having these issues. And that treatment is something called cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. And one of the problems with that is that there's so few practitioners across this country and across the world that it's really harder to be able to seek treatment. So part of what it is that I'm doing professionally is how we can help educate these people and bring the information out to the masses so we can offer some of these treatments and have treatments that are available at a larger scale to more people, as opposed to just simple one on one therapy.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. I have taken psychotherapy, I've taken CBT and some other modalities, and I never would have thought to use this. I'm not a professional here, but as a regular person, as a regular person, I never would have thought that CBT could be used for this issue. So, I'm sure that I'm not the only one out there, right?

Aaron Arkin: I would agree with that wholeheartedly. There's so many people exactly like you, regular person, who has sleep issues now and again, or maybe somewhat chronically, that would benefit from the cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia specifically. And because it's a behavioral issue, it's the cognition. So your thoughts and your behaviors, which are your actions, which need to be identified, challenged, modified, and then made more adaptable to help you improve your sleep.

Erin Patchell: Oh, yeah. And I mean, I have ADHD, right? And so for me, creating habits is challenging at best, especially like, sleep habits. So for me, and probably many of the other folks who are listening because I do tend to attract other people who happen to have ADHD. We don't want to sleep because it's not fun. It's a lot more fun to read or to get zoned into something, right. So you're totally bang on, I think, when you say it's a behavioral issue and it's something that we do have some control over, whether we like it or not.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly. And with sleep, to some degree, there's almost a bit of a built in biofeedback mechanism where if you're trying to lose weight, you do the behaviors. You hop on a scale, and you see that number. If you're trying to get in shape, you go to the gym, you run cardio machines, or you lift weights, and you can see the benefit, your clothing fits you differently. With sleep, that benefit isn't necessarily so physical. It's really behavioral and mood and performance. So if you find that you go through the sleep interventions and you have more energy during the day, and maybe you're a little less irritable to your partner or your family or you're not as forgetful as maybe you once were, that's that biofeedback. And the more that you do it, the more you start to see that benefit, the better you feel and can reduce some other behavioral symptoms too.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. And all those things that you just said are very relevant in the workplace as well. Yeah, absolutely.

Aaron Arkin: One of the benefits of sleep, of course, as I mentioned, is mood and performance. And if you're a better worker and you're a better employee and you're a better coworker, there's benefits to that as well.

Erin Patchell: Definitely. Um, so other than, obviously, the daytime tiredness and exhaustion, you knowing that I know that I've stayed up too late one night or whatever, and that I might be tired the next day, that kind of thing, what are the other behaviors, the common behaviors that you just touched on a little bit? If we could go a little deeper into that, I'm curious. What are the other behaviors that you commonly see when folks are not sleeping well?

Aaron Arkin: Sure. So one of the questions I ask on my assessment is, does difficulty sleeping ever impact your mood or performance the next day? And some of the common answers I receive, the number one answer I get to that question is irritability. There's irritable the next day. They're short tempered. They yell at people in traffic or any of those sorts of things. So irritability forgetfulness brain fog, less sharp. So those are some of the symptoms. And to me, it's always been an interesting dichotomy where you have people who have a physical sleep disorder.

The snoring, sleep apnea folks, they don't get a lot of sleep at night. During the day, they're exhausted. They're fighting to stay awake. They're falling asleep in inappropriate circumstances. And then we have the behavioral sleep people, the people who are suffering from insomnia where similar reduced amounts of sleep, but their daytime symptoms are entirely different. It's not so much that they're sleepy, they're not themselves, they're less sharp, they're forgetful, they're irritable, they're cranky. They're not really a whole lot of fun to be around. So to me, that's always been an interesting dichotomy.

Two different people, similar reduced amounts of sleep, but their daytime symptomology is entirely different. And of course, the treatment for these disorders is different as well.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. So, I mean, I'm imagining that I'm at a leadership level in an organization, and we're being taught to create cultures that are very empathetic with high emotional intelligence, with high customer excellence, and these are all very emotional sorts of behaviors. We've got to be able to control our feelings in the workplace and be able to reach out and pay attention to people and be connected all the time. Right. And I can imagine how this sort of having some kind of sleep issue like insomnia might be even more of a concern now than it was like 20 years ago in the workplace because of the behaviors we're expected to see now.

Aaron Arkin: Certainly, and that's at every level of an organization from an entry level position to the C suite, folks. Because people who are tasked to be making these important company wide decisions, if they're poorly rested or if they're not receiving the benefit of a good night of sleep and it impairs their decision making abilities, then that can have effects completely down the line as well. And that goes in any industry. Look at healthcare. You don't want to have to god forbid, you have to go to an emergency room or have surgery, but you want to make sure that the person who's making that life or death decision isn't doing it because they've been up for 24 hours and their decisions might be a little clouded. You want to make sure that your surgeon is well rested or that that Er doctor has had a really good night of sleep, so they can make the most educated decisions that they possibly can.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. I mean, you brought up ER doctors. There's a chronic... it's a workforce planning... The expectations for doctors are so strange, especially when it comes to shift work and sleeping and long shifts. And this doesn't just go for doctors. There's probably lots of other types of roles as well that are similar, like nurses and other types of shift workers. But how can we have an expectation of performance when simultaneously we're expecting them to work nights, weekends, twelve hour shifts, et cetera? I don't know.

Aaron Arkin: You're absolutely right that the research consistently shows the negative effects of those that are working shift workers. And there's so many professions where shift work is involved in very important decisions that really can have a lot of there's a lot of possibility for mistakes to take place. And you look at the healthcare community with nurses or physicians that are working 24 hours. Look at first responders like the police officers and firefighters. You don't want these people who are working shift work who are either sleep deprived or have been up for 23 hours putting out the fire in your home or making a life and death decision to your health. So shift work again, time and time again has been shown to not necessarily be the best way to manage things.

Erin Patchell: Right? And obviously in some cases you don't have a choice. And probably I expect they're doing as best as they can given all the variables. I would hope. Yeah.

Aaron Arkin: Not that I anticipate we're going to eliminate shift work, but these are all sorts of individuals who would benefit from some sleep education or even some cognitive therapy to help understand how they can manage their sleep when they need to undergo these different types of changes with their routines.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. It's like, what do you have control over and how can we maximize that opportunity? Kind of thing. Yeah, for sure. So I mean, as an employer, am I thinking about people's sleep? I am. One of the first questions I always asked my team was how are you doing? Like, how are you sleeping? Because I think that it's really important and sometimes it's easier to coach people than it is to do it yourself. But I know I think about that. I'm not sure how much other employers think about that and I know we should be thinking about that, but what else can we do besides asking that question how are you doing? How's your sleep? Is there anything else?

Aaron Arkin: You're right. Employees are starting to pay attention to it a little bit. But part of it is really making sure that there's initiatives in place for people that are having those struggles. Whether that's an EAP program, whether that's something within your healthcare benefits that you have access to some sort of sleep programming or sleep testing or sleep therapy. Just making the awareness there. So people and individuals will have access to some of these benefits that they should have available to them, whether it's psychotherapy through their paramedical benefits through their healthcare provider, whether it's reimbursement for their CPAP machines if they were diagnosed with sleep apnea, and at the insurance level, making sure that those who have the disorder have the coverage for these programs. That's a big part of it as well.

Erin Patchell: Do you think that sleep could be built into the culture of the organization?

Aaron Arkin: I think it should be, and I think it could be. I've certainly heard of some organizations that offer nap pods in their office, which sounds a little quirky, but isn't necessarily the worst thing. Your sleep can be reduced for reasons that not necessarily or negative reasons. If you're lying in bed because you're stressed, that's one thing. If you're only sleeping four or 5 hours a night because you have a toddler or you have a sick relative or something, that's another reason as well. So if you do have a reason to take a nap, then that should be supported. It shouldn't necessarily be frowned upon. Go into a quiet room to sit for like 30 minutes in a comfortable chair and get a little bit of sleep to help catch up and make you a little more refreshed.

Aaron Arkin: That should be a beneficial thing. But even workplace wellness awareness should be something that should be on the table as well. Even if it's a lunchtime discussion about sleep by a sleep professional or some sort of awareness that needs to be promoted within an industry.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, for sure. I think for me, just using things as a red flag, if people aren't sleeping well, that can help us diagnose other issues like are you stressed at work? Is it the workload too much? How do we problem solve some things? But are you... are you saying that naps are approved? Is that allowed?

Aaron Arkin: Approved is an interesting term. When I was younger and thought I knew everything, I used to always be with the mindset that oh napping is horrible, you should never ever do it. That just means you're not sleeping right at night. But as I've gotten older and perhaps a little bit wiser, I've started to realize that there are circumstances that prevent you from getting the adequate amount of sleep at night. And if you do need to take some time to take a nap during the day, then take the time to have a nap as opposed to trying to fight through it. And then your body takes that sleep from you when you're not prepared. And that could be even more detrimental like driving a car or giving a presentation or something along those lines. So if your body needs to take a nap, listen to your body take that nap for 2030 minutes.

Aaron Arkin: Try not to let it go much longer than that and that'll give you the energy to be able to go through the rest of the day.

Erin Patchell: Okay, so a limited nap, not like my two hour and a half bare slumber and then you wake up like you're super angry and you want know.

Aaron Arkin: You just eat the whole used to, I used to work for a company based out of Montreal and I live in Toronto so I do that drive back and forth. There'd be sometimes I'd do that drive where halfway through I was starting to struggle and notice that I'm getting fairly sleepy. So I'd pull over at the next rest stop, I'd lock my doors, I'd kick my seat back, 20 minutes later I feel good as gold and I can do the drive and go about my day. So taking the time to give your body the sleep that it needs is going to be helpful so you can continue that performance, right? Yes.

Erin Patchell: So strategically napping is okay.

Aaron Arkin: Yes. If you find that you're taking a two hour nap every day, that could be a clinical sign but if you're finding that you need a 20 minutes nap once every couple of weeks, then take the nap.

Erin Patchell: Yeah. Okay. Awesome advice. Is there any other advice that you would like to give the listeners?

Aaron Arkin: So there's all sorts of sleep tips that come about in typical discussions. I have dozens and dozens of tips that I can give people, but I'm not a big fan of routines in life, and I imagine that the community that you're reaching out to aren't necessarily fans of routines as well, except when it comes to sleep. I find it's helpful to have a bit of a routine when it comes to sleep because that can really increase the quality of your sleep. Doesn't necessarily need to be so regimented, but it also needs to be with the understanding that sometimes we move out of our routine, and that's perfectly fine. If you have a consistent 11:00 to 07:00 sleep schedule, there's going to be times where you stay up late, and that's perfectly normal. There's going to be times where maybe you sleep in a little bit, and that's perfectly fine. Understanding how we sleep and understand how we can manage these sorts of things is really going to lead to future increased quality of your sleep and then again, that daytime performance as well. But if there's literally one sleep tip that I can give every single person around the world is this always try to wake up at the same time every day.

Aaron Arkin: Because waking up at the same time every day is the anchor that's going to start you for the rest of the day. So you can tire yourself out, so you can get a good quality sleep the next day, and so on and so forth. So keeping a consistent wake up time is always the one sleep tip that I would try to give everybody.

Erin Patchell: Yeah, that is very good advice and one that I'm trying desperately to get my 18 year old teenage boy named James to take into consideration.

Aaron Arkin: So with 18 year olds and I was an 18 year old once too, I find it can be helpful to maintain a consistent wake up time by providing an incentive. Do something that you can enjoy doing first thing in the morning that'll make that wake up time a little less cumbersome. Maybe it's getting an early workout in. Maybe it's watching a Netflix program that no one else in your house likes to watch. Maybe it's taking the dog for a walk or getting some fresh air. Find something that you can enjoy doing first thing in the morning that'll make that cumbersome wake up time a little less negative for you.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. Yeah. Good tip. And since we're kind of wrapping up, if folks want to reach out to you specifically and learn more about the work that you do and how you can support them with their sleep, how would they get a hold of you?

Aaron Arkin: Sure. So as. The director of insomnia services for Kerikahealth. They can find us on our website, careicahealth.com. You can find lots of different services that we offer there. I'm sure they can reach out to you if they wanted to get my contact information, just to make sure that people are a little more aware of their sleep. And speaking to your family physician if you find that you're having trouble sleeping is always a really great first step to be able to see what other treatment options might be available for you.

Erin Patchell: Absolutely. And those pieces of information will be at the bottom of the podcast episode script. If anyone's listening and would like to grab those, we'll leave them there.

Aaron Arkin: Great.

Erin Patchell: Awesome. Thanks so much, Aaron.

Aaron Arkin: Thank you so much, Erin.

Erin Patchell: Excellent, Aaron and Erin, coming to you.

[Laughs]

Thanks again to Aaron Arkin for joining us on the show and remember the Irish proverb: a good laugh and a long sleep are the two best cures for anything.

This is Erin Patchell signing off. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.

[Outro Music]

If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to, like, subscribe and share this with your friends. You can visit us at Positivist.ca. P-O-S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T dot CA. Or give us a shout on any social media @positivistgroup or reach out to me at Erin Patchell.

And have a great day at work.

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Podcast Resources

Careica Health: https://careicahealth.com/insomnia/insomnia-therapy/

Aaron Arkin Linkedin: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/aaronarkin