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    Episode 163 - Psychedelics: Dr.Ryan Marino and Dr. Tyler Black

    enAugust 09, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Discovering Hidden Talent on LinkedIn and Telehealth Convenience70% of LinkedIn users aren't actively job searching but can still be potential hires. Telehealth providers like PlushCare offer accessibility and convenience for health concerns, including weight loss.

      LinkedIn is a valuable resource for hiring professionals, as over 70% of its users don't visit other leading job sites. This means that businesses looking for top talent may miss out on candidates like Sandra, who might not be actively seeking a new job but could be open to the right opportunity. Additionally, telehealth provider PlushCare offers convenience and accessibility for those dealing with health issues, including weight loss. On a personal note, Kaveh, the podcast host, shared his experience of becoming a new father and the unexpected emotional challenges that come with it, along with the ongoing struggle with lack of sleep as he gets older.

    • Exploring the spiritual significance of psychedelicsPsychedelics, which affect consciousness and cause hallucinations, have spiritual significance and primarily impact serotonin receptors in the brain, leading to unique experiences.

      Psychedelics, which are substances that affect consciousness and cause hallucinations, have a unique spiritual and connected experience that goes beyond simple hallucinations. These substances, like LSD, have been used for both recreational purposes and in various cultures and religions for their spiritual significance. The neurobiology of psychedelics primarily affects the serotonin receptors in the brain, specifically the 5-HT2A receptor. While most hallucinogenic drugs work in this way, Salvia is an exception and can cause negative hallucinations. The speaker also shared a personal story of accidentally experiencing the effects of what they believe was LSD, which was a challenging experience. Despite this, the speaker expressed an appreciation for the chemistry and physiology of psychedelics.

    • Ketamine's Dissociative Effects and Use in PsychiatryKetamine, a medication used for medical procedures and psychiatric indications, is gaining popularity for treating depression due to its dissociative effects. However, its safety and efficacy for depression treatment are still being studied, and more rigorous clinical trials are needed to confirm its benefits.

      Ketamine, a medication used for medical procedures and psychiatric indications, is known for its dissociative effects. Unlike hallucinogens, dissociative experiences create a puzzling feeling of altered reality where things don't feel real. Ketamine is gaining popularity in psychiatry as a potential treatment for treatment-resistant depression, although its effects are still being studied. The medication is generally considered safe, but its use for depression treatment has not yet been proven with definitive results. The speaker shares their skepticism towards the large effect sizes claimed for ketamine and emphasizes the importance of rigorous clinical trials to evaluate its efficacy.

    • Ketamine's history and therapeutic effectsAncient Ketamine, used for depression, discovered through epilepsy observations. Low doses, not hallucinations, drive benefits. Expensive SPRAVATO raises concerns.

      While Ketamine, an ancient and affordable drug, is gaining popularity for its potential in treating depression, it's important to remember that it's not a "wonder drug" that just appeared recently. Its use for mood disorders was discovered through observing its effects on people with epilepsy and mood disorders. The doses used in depression studies are actually quite low, below the dissociative threshold, and it's the presence of the substance itself, not the hallucinogenic effects, that seems to be driving the therapeutic benefits. However, the push for expensive nasal sprays like SPRAVATO raises concerns about potential cost and evidence manipulation. Regarding LSD, it's often discussed for its potential in treating conditions like treatment-resistant depression and substance abuse disorders, but high doses are typically required for these therapeutic applications. It's important to note that these studies often involve a guided therapeutic experience with a psychotherapist providing therapy while the person is on the hallucinogen.

    • Exploring Psychedelics for Therapeutic Use: Proceed with CautionApproach psychedelics for therapeutic use with caution due to ethical concerns and lack of rigorous scientific research. Effectiveness and individual experience depend on dosing strategies and mindset.

      While the use of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes has gained attention in recent years, it's important to approach this field with caution due to ethical concerns and the lack of rigorous scientific research. The intent behind using psychedelics therapeutically is to induce altered consciousness, but the methods and environments can vary greatly. Some studies have raised concerns about inappropriate behavior and abuse of vulnerable individuals during these sessions. Additionally, the effectiveness of psychedelics for treating conditions like depression and PTSD is not yet proven, and the overall experience seems to depend on the individual's mindset. The dosing strategies also differ, with conventional dosing aiming for hallucinogenic effects and microdosing using much lower doses. A recent study on microdosing showed promising results, but the effects may largely be due to expectancy. As we explore the potential of psychedelics for therapeutic use, it's crucial to prioritize ethical standards and rigorous scientific research to ensure safety and effectiveness.

    • Limited research on microdosing due to lack of incentive and schedulingDespite potential benefits, limited research exists on microdosing due to lack of incentive for drug manufacturers and venture capitalists, and scheduling as Schedule 1 substances

      The current state of research on microdosing psychedelics, particularly LSD and other hallucinogens, is lacking strong, randomized, placebo-controlled trials due to a lack of incentive for drug manufacturers and venture capitalists. These substances, which don't have patentability, instead rely on market and branding. The scheduling of these substances as Schedule 1, despite evidence of medical benefits, further hinders research. For example, psilocybin, which has some reputable evidence for helping depression, depression relief, and end-of-life anxiety, is one of the few exceptions. However, the evidence base is still not strong enough, and the safety of these substances in uncontrolled environments is a concern. The push for psilocybin in PTSD treatment is promising but not yet conclusive. The lack of high-quality evidence and safety concerns under controlled conditions make it essential for the FDA to prioritize randomized, placebo-controlled trials to approve these drugs based on solid evidence.

    • Psychedelics: Benefits and RisksPsychedelics like psilocybin and LSD have potential benefits, especially in psychiatry, but come with risks like HPPD and side effects. More research is needed to understand their delivery, prevention of side effects, and full potential.

      While psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD show promising potential benefits, particularly in psychiatry, they are not without risks. Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD) is a condition where hallucinations continue even after the psychedelic has worn off. The evidence for these substances is optimistic but not yet definitive, and more research is needed to understand their delivery, prevention of side effects, and full potential. Despite the risks, there is a growing industrialization and venture capital investment in these substances. As medical professionals, we recognize the potential benefits but also the need for serious study and caution. It's important to remember that these substances can have significant side effects, including cardiovascular issues, hyperthermia, toxicity, and even psychosis. As gastroenterologists, we also see the risks associated with cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. We are pro-decriminalization but advocate for responsible use and scientific understanding.

    • Marijuana and psychedelics: Benefits and risksWhile decriminalization and legalization of marijuana and psychedelics have benefits, it's essential to recognize their potential risks and side effects, such as cannabis hyperemesis syndrome and serotonin syndrome.

      While some people may find benefits from using substances like marijuana and psychedelics, it's important to recognize that they also come with risks and potential side effects. The idea that these substances are "magic" or completely safe is a misconception. For example, marijuana use can lead to cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, and psychedelics like mushrooms can cause persistent bad trips or serotonin syndrome. Decriminalization and legalization of these substances can be beneficial for research purposes and personal use, but it doesn't imply that they are risk-free. It's crucial to approach the use of these substances with an understanding of their potential harms and benefits. Additionally, it can be challenging to have open and earnest conversations about the potential negative effects of these substances without being perceived as judgmental or against their use.

    • Psychedelics and SSRIs: Reduced Effectiveness and Higher RisksUsing psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin while on SSRIs can reduce their effectiveness and increase the risk of taking higher doses. Ketamine shows promise for treating suicidality, but more research is needed to determine its effectiveness in this area, especially for children.

      When it comes to the use of psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin while on Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors (SSRIs), the general consensus is that the effectiveness of the psychedelic experience is reduced, and there's a risk of taking higher doses due to the blunted response. Additionally, there's a reported cross-tolerance between different psychedelics, meaning that using one may make it less likely to have a significant effect from another. Regarding the use of Ketamine for treating suicidality, while there's promising evidence, more research is needed to determine its effectiveness in this area. The lack of solid evidence has led to parents and patients asking about its use, but there's currently no proven study showing its benefits for children. Researchers are focusing on studying the effects of Ketamine on suicidality in young people, which is a complex and difficult area to treat.

    • Understanding the Complexities of Psychedelics ResearchWhile some psychedelics like Ketamine have shown promise for mental health conditions, it's crucial to conduct rigorous research to ensure their safety and efficacy. Be cautious of misinformation and rely on credible sources and scientific evidence.

      While there is growing interest in the use of psychedelics like Ketamine for mental health conditions, it's crucial to conduct rigorous scientific research to determine their safety and efficacy. The Doan Lab, where the speaker is part of, is conducting high-quality research on Ketamine's impact on suicidality. However, there are concerns that some psychedelics, like Ibogaine, which have had a resurgence in popularity, are being used without sufficient evidence of their safety and efficacy. Misinformation about psychedelics being calming and effective for all conditions can be misleading. It's essential to understand that psychedelics go beyond LSD and shrooms, and each substance has unique properties and risks. Therefore, it's vital to rely on credible sources and scientific evidence when evaluating the potential benefits and risks of psychedelics.

    • Caution needed in psychedelic hypeWhile research into psychedelics' therapeutic uses continues, be wary of overhyped claims. Use responsibly, but await solid evidence before labeling them as new miracle cures.

      While there is ongoing research into the potential therapeutic uses of psychedelics, it's important to be cautious about the hype surrounding their supposedly revolutionary benefits. Many studies on these substances date back decades and have limited evidence, often with subjective scoring and lack of blinding. Recreational use should not be criminalized, but it's crucial to use them responsibly, such as with trusted companions and informed consent. The concern lies in the commercialization and overhyping of these substances as new miracle cures when their evidence base is not yet solid. Personal experiences, while valid, should not overshadow the need for rigorous scientific research.

    • Different methods of consuming psychedelics can impact the experienceChoosing the right method to consume psychedelics can enhance or hinder the experience. Ensure a safe and controlled environment and avoid mixing with other substances.

      The method of consuming psychedelic substances can impact the experience, with some methods leading to more intense or faster onsets, while others can be dangerous. For example, injecting psilocybin mushrooms can lead to severe health consequences. It's important to have a calm and controlled environment and have a sober person present to supervise. Mixing psychedelics with other psychedelics or serotonergic drugs can also be risky and may blunt the effects. While there is a wealth of anecdotal evidence online, scientific research on these topics is limited and should be approached with caution.

    • Combining Psychedelics with Medications: Serious Health RisksSerotonin syndrome from combining psychedelics with certain medications can be life-threatening. MDMA poses a greater risk due to its amphetamine effects. Flashbacks from LSD use can be debilitating and dangerous.

      Combining certain psychedelic substances with medications can lead to serious health risks, particularly serotonin syndrome. While mushrooms and LSD generally have a lower risk, substances like MDMA pose a greater danger due to their amphetamine effects. Serotonin syndrome is a potentially life-threatening condition characterized by mental status changes, autonomic hyperactivity, and neuromuscular problems. It's essential to be aware of these risks and consult a healthcare professional if you're on any medications. Flashbacks from LSD use are also a real concern, as they can be debilitating and even dangerous if they occur while driving or in other uncontrolled settings. The exact mechanisms behind these phenomena are still not fully understood, but it's clear that both serotonin syndrome and flashbacks are significant concerns for anyone exploring the world of psychedelics.

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