Episode 3: I Got So Into Embryo Adoption, I Wrote a Book.

It’s easy to feel alone, whether you’re an adult experiencing pregnancy failure, or an embryo adoption kid with a different story than your peers. In this episode, NEDC mom Ambre Williams unpacks how community & prayer led her & her husband to peace during their uneven embryo adoption journey. Plus, she shares about her new children’s book, aimed at making embryo adoption children (and others born outside traditional means) feel loved & special, not alone.

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After an exhausting grind of failed IUIs and IVF, Cristina’s fertility doctor recommended she look at other options. That’s how she learned about embryo adoption, which resulted in triplets! Her story is packed with practical lessons on everything from trusting your body’s signals to taking on the tougher parts of parenting multiples. Be inspired as you learn how her older son’s longstanding Christmas wish was answered- three times over!

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Travis & Kristen didn’t have any fertility issues (they already had four children) but did have a heart to adopt. That desire led them to choose embryo adoption. And although personal and medical challenges complicated their journey, they wouldn’t trade the result: Twin sisters who share a special bond that sweetens life for their large family.

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Janae and Clayton had a deeply emotional embryo adoption journey filled with cycles of loss, followed by renewed hope. Along the way, Janae kept an open mind on everything, including choosing embryo adoption (which initially struck her as weird) in the first place, switching from an open to a closed adoption, and even changing her mind on whether to try a third embryo transfer. As she explains in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast, she’s glad she did- because it all led to the birth of her second son. 

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Sometimes embryo adoption dads struggle with parental identity. That stems from being the only adult in the process -donor or recipient- without a genetic or biological connection to their child. But shared biology and genetics aren’t the only traits that make someone a ‘real dad.’ NEDC dad Derek King has worked through those awkward feelings. He has a ton of helpful insights for other EA dads to kick off Season 4 of The Embryo Adoption Podcast.

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Wondering how to talk to your kids about embryo adoption? Trying to find peace amid infertility? Then this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast is a must-listen. Psychologist (and NEDC mom) Dr. Megan Herscher explores healthy approaches to each in our Season 3 finale. 

We’re having some fun in this episode! Almost 8 months after their births, catch up with the NEDC babies frozen as embryos for a world-record of nearly 30 years, Timothy & Lydia Ridgeway, as well as their parents Philip & Rachel. This family’s looking back on the wild and sometimes hilarious adventure of making global news. Would they do it all again? 

... 
FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, grammatical, and factual errors as this transcript was generated by AI.)


 00:00
Mark Mellinger
Looking back on two world record arrivals. That's what we're doing on this edition of the Embryo Adoption Podcast. I'm your host, Mark Mellinger, and the embryo adoption podcast is brought to you by the National Embryo Donation center. You can find out more about our work by going to embryodonation.org. I'm joined by four guests today, philip and Rachel Ridgeway, as well as Timothy and Lydia. They are the world record holders for the longest frozen embryos to come to birth. I'm sure many of you remember this global news story from last November and December, and they went through the NEDC and we're catching up with them. Doing a little bit of a post mortem here, by the way. This is one family that is busy. They have four older kids besides these two. So I really appreciate you all taking the time. And like I said, if you're not watching the video version, you'll hear them, the kids, the youngest are with us and they are just cute as a button as they are about eight months old as we record this interview. 

 01:09
Mark Mellinger
So let me start here. How are Timothy and Lydia doing? They look like they're doing great. And how is the rest of your family adjusted? 

 01:17
Rachel Ridgeway
Well, they are growing amazingly by God's grace. Their pediatrician has been so impressed with them because when they were born, they were good size, but they were like on the fifth percentile for weight and length, and they've gone up to the 50th. And so their pediatrician couldn't be any happier with their growth and development. And the kids, we all love them. We can't imagine life without them at this point. It's been such a blessing and so much fun. And each of the kids takes turn holding them and caring for them and loving them. 

 01:48
Mark Mellinger
Are you getting sleep? I mean, they should be decent sleepers by this age, right? 

 01:55
Rachel Ridgeway
You would hope. And the pediatrician says, oh, they can sleep through the night now. They weigh a heavy enough. I'm like, yeah, you got to tell them that Lydia is by far the better sleeper. She's pretty low maintenance. Peter put her to bed. She's pretty happy about that. Timothy's our snuggle bug. 

 02:13
Mark Mellinger
He's with Daddy right now. And I think they're both a little fascinated with the computer that you're doing this interview through that's. Okay, let's go talk, first of all, about your experience through the NEDC. We'll start there. You were intentional about selecting embryos that had been here a long time. You wanted to do this. 

 02:36
Rachel Ridgeway
Why? 

 02:37
Philip Ridgeway
So when were thinking through how would we select a profile, we didn't have any sort of characteristic in mind if we want children with similar hair color or eye color or whatever. So we couldn't think of any criteria we would use to select embryos except for, well, just give us the oldest ones, the webs that have been waiting the longest. And so that's what went with. 

 03:08
Mark Mellinger
Because you knew that those embryos were harder to place. I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'm sort of asking that question. I know you guys share our heart for life. I mean, that's why we're here, is to protect the sanctity and dignity of human embryos. And these children that you're holding were frozen for just a month and a half shy of 30 years, which is just amazing. That was your heart behind this, right? You wanted the embryos that you wanted to give the embryos a shot at life that were likely going to be harder to place. 

 03:41
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, that was part of it. But also just the fact that each of these embryos is a human being that God has created in his own image, he's given life to, they have value. They're all equally as valuable in our minds. We couldn't think of a way of saying, well, we want some and not others. So rather than selecting some arbitrary criteria, we said we want those that have been waiting there the longest. That have been waiting the longest to be adopted into a family. 

 04:25
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. Lydia's giving Rachel some problems over there. I understand she's getting hungry. That's totally understandable. Let me ask you this. I mentioned that this was big news several months ago. Are you glad that you went public with your story? Would you do it all over again? 

 04:43
Rachel Ridgeway
Oh, yeah. The amount of people that even just our church body getting to know about embryo adoption and everything involved with that and then having it go public, just being able to talk to more and more people about embryo adoption and the sanctity of life and why these kids are just as important as any other kids out there that are in need of families and really just to be able to glorify God and to give him the credit for the fact that he's the one that created Timothy and Lydia. He's the one that sustained them for the 30 years in the freezer and then sustained them in my womb and continues to sustain them and to be able to give him the glory for what he has done and just to give these babies a face because it's such a hard, nebulous idea for people to come to grips with that there are millions of children frozen out there that just need a chance at life. 

 05:36
Rachel Ridgeway
And it's such a strange thought and process that most people have never even heard of. And so to be able to give it that platform so that people can know and understand and want to look into it for themselves, it's a huge blessing for us. 

 05:50
Philip Ridgeway
It's also been helpful, even just for ourselves. It's challenged us to think through the issue of life and what the Bible says about that and how do we evaluate from a biblical perspective things like IVF and infertility. So that's really helped us to sort of codify what we believe and to speak to people about that issue because it's a common thing. And what we found is that very few people who haven't done embryo adoption or even IDF don't know what it is, what it all involves, what the moral implications of it. So it's been helpful even just for us, but also for the people that God's providentially brought into our lives. We've been able to share our story and teach them about embryo adoption and the life that God has given to these children. 

 06:46
Mark Mellinger
Well, that's a key point, is that a lot of people will just rush into, if they have the money IVF when they're going through infertility what you're saying. And I know, by the way, even though you have four older children, you all experienced infertility before this. So this is not something with which you are unfamiliar. It's a sensitive topic for you. It's a very real topic for you. And you're saying even though you had gone through it and I know you did not need to go all the way to IVF. You did not go all the way to IVF, even with that background as pretext embryo adoption even made you stop think further, refine your views on what links you will go to achieve children, on the link between fertility and. 

 07:41
Philip Ridgeway
Faith, and also just how to think through it. There are some people that we encountered that were adamantly opposed to embryo adoption just because it's loosely connected with IVF, thinking that somehow embryo adoption promotes IVF, causes more IVF to happen. That was really something that we wrestled through and thought through and had to formulate arguments in our minds. And it was very helpful in that respect. 

 08:12
Mark Mellinger
I remember having a conversation about that with you two while you were pregnant with them, and that was interesting. It is a question that you run into every now and then, and it's a good, thoughtful question that we're happy to engage. What was it like seeing your story told by media outlet after media outlet all over the world, sometimes very entertaining. Okay, yeah. And I know some of this. What were some of the moments that you found entertaining? 

 08:50
Rachel Ridgeway
I think it was my uncle shared an article and it had the wrong photo on it. So saying our family, but it was actually the previous record holder's family photo. They just used some sort of random twin photo of any twins. And so it was our story. But those aren't our kids. Those are pretty funny or just different things that we realized that very quickly, that different news outlets just play telephone now. We have a couple of interviews in person, but then there's all these articles and you can see the little tweaks. So somehow somebody got something wrong. 

 09:27
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, they hear that, then EDC is in Tennessee and they just assumed that were in Tennessee. Our location changed from article to article. There was some humor in it, and at first it was surprising, but at the same time, were grateful for the opportunities we talked about that God chose to use us in this way and that he is being glorified in this, that life is being put on display and people are hearing the truth. There was someone from our church that read the CNN article and said, yeah, it ends with the sovereignty of God, that God is the one who ordains life and creates life and preserves life, sustains life. That's been our desire all along, for God to be glorified in this. 

 10:20
Mark Mellinger
And that's what you did. You did it all throughout. I loved how you did it, and you really did it in an articulate and intentional way. It wasn't just sort of generic Hallmark card, glorifying God and praising God. There was some theological weight behind it. And I love that about your story. Yeah. And it was interesting seeing the various places that you lived, whether it was Tennessee or Washington oregon, they could have just thought, I guess, that you were sort of a family that was living out of an RV or something, because it did change occasionally. What were some of the most memorable responses you received from folks? I'm not talking about members of the media. I'm talking about just people who saw your story either in person or online. 

 11:16
Rachel Ridgeway
You've had somebody stop you and go, hey, I know you from high school and I saw your article, I think. 

 11:23
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, that was at the Burbank Airport. 

 11:27
Mark Mellinger
Is that right? 

 11:29
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah. Oh, I got text messages from friends and different long distance family members that were like, hey, we saw you people go look at my Facebook feed, and all of a sudden, wait, that's a little bit Rachel. They're on there. We didn't really make it public that were going to do this. We just kind of put it out there. So I think it's quite entertaining for a lot of our church family to see our faces plastered over for a few days and be like, I know those people. 

 11:57
Mark Mellinger
You mentioned the telephone world of the media, how a lot of them will basically lift details that were gathered by somebody else and make it their own. That was one aspect that stood out to you. I think another aspect that stood out is a lot of the media, like local TV stations or online outlets, are owned by the same companies. So basically, if you do something with one station, you can be sending it out to the entire country. That didn't used to be the case. Were there other aspects of working with the media that surprised you from either a positive or negative standpoint? 

 12:40
Rachel Ridgeway
For the most part, I think it was all pretty positive. We didn't really run into any big hiccups or anything. I have to say, I think the Guinness World Record article was quite impressive. I was actually very shocked by that one, thinking that we filled out this long survey question by question for them, and they just took it and they put it out there word for word. And so even with our references to the Lord and his sustaining and all that, they put it out there. I was like, oh, sweet. That's pretty cool. 

 13:13
Mark Mellinger
That was so cool. And it was so cool that I have the plaque hanging across from my office here at the NEDC. You guys were nice enough to let us have like, a replica plaque because you have a plaque there. 

 13:26
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, well, they do, I guess. 

 13:32
Mark Mellinger
Right? It's so cool. And it's funny, people do they stop by and notice it all the time and they're like, oh, that was you guys. So they knew about the story, or if they hadn't heard the story, they're like, that is amazing. Almost 30 years. We'll try to get some placards with your pictures and stuff, too, to add to that. So you'll always have a home in Tennessee. Whether the media says you do or not, you'll always be here in a sense. Hey, I'm always interested. And by the way, let me say this. This was largely the experience with some of our other couples who have done massive nationwide publicity. There have only been a couple, but generally we as Christians can sometimes bang on the media and be down on them. And there are some legitimate criticisms there, but I always like to praise them where I can. 

 14:26
Mark Mellinger
And I would say I agree with the two of you that by and large, they were very friendly, very courteous. They did share your Christian viewpoint in most cases, which was very important to you, and we let them know that. So they were very respectful and good to work with, and they usually are in the context of the NEC. So we appreciate those in the media who do it well as we do any profession that's a gift from God. So of all the media coverage, which reporter outlet did the best job telling your story? You mentioned that Guinness did a great job. Was there anybody else who stood out as yeah, this is the one. If I had to point somebody to our story. 

 15:13
Philip Ridgeway
There was the initial article with the Gospel Coalition. We were really satisfied, happy with that. How the author, she did a really good job with that story. Actually, the CNN one were quite impressed with, and were surprised at how well they covered accurately portrayed things that he said. But we also did a local interview with a reporter. Do you remember the station? Reporter's name was Alma, and it was. 

 15:43
Mark Mellinger
With it's hard to remember. I get it. 

 15:49
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, I can't remember the station because we don't watch local news. But reporter came to our house and just asked us questions and she was really relatable and we watched a story and she just did a fantastic job. 

 16:03
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, she really did. 

 16:05
Philip Ridgeway
We had a great experience. 

 16:06
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, we definitely had some unique ones. I think we did. It was a podcast, right, for Connecticut. 

 16:12
Mark Mellinger
Oh, I think I remember. I know which one you're talking about. 

 16:15
Rachel Ridgeway
Go ahead. Yeah. And she asked different questions, so that was definitely an interesting interview. She focused more on the fact that Lydia and Timothy's history includes their dad having their biological dad having a diagnosis of ALS and what does that mean? And so that was definitely just a unique one, but it also provided us with the opportunity of really showing how God is in control of all things and that Lydia and Timothy still need to be given the opportunity at life despite the possibilities. And the reality is that any child has the possibility of having anything at any time. And so the idea that there's somehow a greater risk with these guys is very funny because God's in control of all things and so we have nothing to fear because we know that whatever he sends us our way as believers will be for our good and for his glory. 

 17:10
Mark Mellinger
Amen. It's such a great point. I mean, if you're human, you're fundamentally broken and in need of restoration and this side of eternity, something bad's going to happen to you that will take you out. That's just how it is. So there's really no difference, right? That's just how it is. Yeah. 

 17:35
Rachel Ridgeway
In all of human history, there's only been, what, two people that didn't die, right? 

 17:40
Mark Mellinger
Exactly. 

 17:42
Rachel Ridgeway
Yeah, exactly. So you've got a pretty high percentage chance of a Lloyd taking you home. 

 17:50
Mark Mellinger
Are you collecting highlights from that time in a scrapbook or a thumb drive or anything? 

 17:57
Rachel Ridgeway
I wish. 

 17:57
Mark Mellinger
But now you're too busy talk about your other kids, how old they are. 

 18:03
Philip Ridgeway
Well, part of it is being too busy, but also part of it's just like we didn't do this for the flame. That hasn't been a motivating factor for us really at all. We talked about our desire was to point people to Christ and for him to be glorified and so it wasn't about us. But yeah, we do have a few things here and there. Like you mentioned, the plague, Afghanistan. We haven't decided what to do with. 

 18:37
Rachel Ridgeway
You yet, but well, nowadays the Internet, it's like if they want to find out, it's just a matter of googling their names and we'll be able to find all kinds of fun things about them. 

 18:48
Mark Mellinger
And the thing is, it'll proliferate over the years, maybe go in directions that you never saw. 

 19:00
Philip Ridgeway
We also wouldn't have time, even if we wanted to do that sort of thing between, you know, works school, serving at our church. I'm in seminary. 

 19:09
Mark Mellinger
Are you going to seminary? 

 19:11
Philip Ridgeway
Yeah, I'm going a student at the Master's seminary in their MDIF program. 

 19:17
Mark Mellinger
Well, congratulations. Now are you just going to use that to serve more effectively in your home and church or do you plan to sort of switch careers and become a pastor? 

 19:29
Philip Ridgeway
I'm in training to be an elder at our church. So I don't know where God's going to take that, but I primarily just want to be a more effective servant minister of his word. So it's been neat. I've been doing that for the past year with a couple of other guys from our. 

 19:51
Mark Mellinger
How cool. Now that is really great. I was going to see if we can get you guys back. It looks like you have frozen on me, so that's okay. We were pretty much at the end of our time anyway. So I guess I will use this as an opportunity to just wrap up the podcast. We want to thank you too so much, philip and Rachel as well as Timothy and Lydia. They behaved just wonderfully. And if you would like more information about the National Embryo Donation Center and our work, you can find us at embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

After 15 years of marriage with no children, Chris & Rachel suddenly became parents of twins! Find out how sleep training was key to their finding a new routine, and how a stuffed bear not only helped Rachel through her fear of needles but will endure as a sentimental keepsake for their kids. All that, and the role their faith played, in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, grammatical, and factual errors as this transcript was generated by AI.)
 00:00
Mark Mellinger
It's a great story of faith amid infertility. And finally, answer in embryo adoption. I'm Mark Mellinger, your host, and this is the embryo adoption podcast brought to you by the National Embryo Donation Center. You can find out more about us at Embryodonation.org. Chris and Rachel Chumita are with me today, and they are joined by their twins. You can see that if you're watching the video version. Ezekiel and Elizabeth. They're about seven months old as we record this, and they are cute as a button family. It's great to see you. 

 00:36
Rachel Chumita
Good to be here. 

 00:38
Mark Mellinger
I love it. And your kids are being so good. We'll see if that continues throughout the whole episode. It may not, and if it doesn't, that's okay. I will try not to keep you too long. I love that you have a shared faith now, but you actually didn't when you got married. Can you two walk me through how that happened? 

 01:00
Rachel Chumita
Sure. I was raised in a Protestant church. Chris was raised in a different faith that he wasn't neither of us actually were believers, although I kind of had a more solid upbringing, if you will, in terms of Christianity and my background. I knew that Jesus was the only way to heaven. But I, again, wasn't a believer. Over the years, I'd ask Chris, over time, you do know that Jesus is the only way to heaven? He'd be like, no, I don't think so. Just one day, God got a hold of my heart, and I just prayed that he would lead us to a church where I would come to really know him and where Chris would come to know him. God answered that prayer and he led us to a church through his providence and where we did both become Christians. Short story. 

 02:07
Mark Mellinger
It's an amazing story, and I should say at the outset, you guys have been married I'm not telling you this, but I'm telling our audience. You've been married for a long time. I mean, you were married for 15 years before you had your children, so it was a long road. How do you think being Christians affected the way that you navigated infertility? 

 02:31
Chris Chumita
I think it helped quite a bit, because when were first married, I have neurofibromatosis, which is a hereditary condition, and since we had no faith in God or in his providence, we decided to have vasectomy very early on in our marriage. After we became Christians, believing in God and His Providence, we decided to have it reversed, and it was considered successful. But then we just couldn't get pregnant. All the tests, the ones we did, just came back. If there's no reason, you're not. We just kind of relied as much as we could on Romans 828 and just went on from there. 

 03:07
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. All things work together for those who love God as Romans 828. Most of our audience would know that. Just in case you don't and that doesn't always mean necessarily in the here and now. It may mean in eternity. So at least we have that comfort. How did you find out about embryo adoption in the NEDC, by the way? 

 03:29
Rachel Chumita
Chris was filling the pulpit for his friend indiana, where we met Jen and Aaron Hannaker. Jen was pregnant with Evie at that time, and so were just talking, and she was like, well, she's pregnant. She's like, now this baby is adopted. And I'm like, Wait, what? I asked her about more of it, and we talked for a little while. On our way back to Ohio, I told Chris, I'm like, okay, this is really cool. What do you think about it? Chris knows that I get really emotional around my birthday every year through the years of infertility. He was like, okay, I'm totally on board, but we're going to get a couple of weeks past birthday and make sure that this is still a desire of yours before we just jump at it. The rest is history. It was still committed after a couple of weeks. 

 04:24
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, and the hammockers are terrific. EVs one of their NEDC babies. They have a couple now. Interesting. You were doing pulpit supply because Chris does have a master's degree in theology, I should say you're not a full time pastor, but you do some pulpit supply. Just doing this pulpit supply over in your neighboring state, Indiana, because you guys live in the Cleveland area. This is how you heard about yes, sir. Embryo adoption. Yes. What was the process of going through the NEDC like? Anything that you'd like to share to prepare other people who are thinking about it? 

 05:03
Chris Chumita
We thought it was just very easy. Any question asked was quickly answered. The process was very straightforward. The home study group went through. 

 05:12
Rachel Chumita
Was Snowflakes, I believe. 

 05:15
Mark Mellinger
Snowflakes family evaluation was very easy. 

 05:18
Chris Chumita
It was not like the horse stories you hear about people going through other adoptions. We really enjoyed the first trip down in Edict. We thought just meeting the whole staff, how they walked you through the whole process was very helpful and relieved any fears you might have had. 

 05:33
Mark Mellinger
Well, that's great to hear. The Snowflakes family evaluation is something that some of our families may be interested in. It's an alternative to a traditional home study. We do have a home study requirement with the NEDC, but the Snowflakes family evaluation, the SFE, is good for two years, which is longer than most home studies, so that can be a good option. Also they'll go anywhere in the country to do it. The big distinction is it is only good for embryo adoption. If you're looking for a more flexible option that's good for both traditional adoption and embryo adoption, you wouldn't want to do the SFE, but it can be a good option if you're only interested in embryo adoption like Chris and Rachel were. Your kids are being so good. I love how especially Elizabeth is looking at the camera and wanting to play with that thing. 

 06:26
Mark Mellinger
Let's talk about them a little bit. I mean, take me to the moment that Ezekiel and Elizabeth were born. 

 06:34
Rachel Chumita
Well, I will say the one thing that was really scary for me were the shots. And so I don't like shots. Chris always has to go with me to my dentist appointments for that shot. 

 06:49
Mark Mellinger
These are the shots to stimulate your cycle so your body's ready to do this. Okay, so before we get to the birth, how did you work through that? That's really practical. 

 07:00
Rachel Chumita
Well, I was scared, but then I thought, okay, it's worth it. What I also did was I got a little stuffed bare, and so I would hold onto it really tight whenever Chris would give me my shots. It was just like a little reminder of why I was getting them done. It kind of made it all worth it in the end. Just kind of that little reminder every time I get my shots, like, okay, this is for what I called it, Booba Bear. My intention was, and still is to pass those bears on to them then for when they have to go through something like a shot. After we found out we had two, we got a second for me to finish my progesterone and oil shots. So I'd hold both of them then. And so now they know. They'll know that's how much I love them, that I went through those shots and Boo Bear helped me, and it can help them. 

 07:57
Mark Mellinger
That's really good and really practical. I love that. Tell me about when they entered the world. 

 08:06
Rachel Chumita
It was a Caesarean section, and yeah, it went really well. They were like, this is your son, this is your daughter. It was just amazing. I was opened up on the table and stuff, but then they got me the babies as soon as possible, and it was just like I didn't ever want to leave them, ever. 

 08:32
Mark Mellinger
Chris? Yeah? Tell me what it was like for you. I mean, you're talking about basically 16 years of marriage with no kids and now twins. 

 08:43
Chris Chumita
Yeah, it's been a big change, but a change for a good especially with twins. When you'd ask someone with twins, so how was the first few weeks? They give you, like, the wide eyed look, and you kind of know what that looks like now. Especially right now, as they're getting order, they're getting mobile. Like, Ezekiel is very close to walking and Lisa's just starting to crawl, and they're interacting a lot more. It's just so much fun. I always say, to highlight my days when I come home from work and I walk in and say, hey, Daddy's home. They both let out a squill and try to run over to you as much as they can. 

 09:21
Mark Mellinger
Well, remember that when they're teenagers. Tuck that away in your mind. It's a sweet moment for right now and enjoy it. It doesn't always last that long. All kidding aside, I mean, they're beautiful kids. If you're watching on the video version, you can see that Elizabeth just had a pleasant smile on her face basically the whole time. Ezekiel has been looking at Daddy most of. Describe their personalities and how they have changed your lives. 

 09:53
Rachel Chumita
Go ahead. 

 09:54
Chris Chumita
Ezekiel is basically just a ham. He's always just smiling and laughing and he hits his landmarks very quickly. He's climbing up on furniture already and everything along those lines and he's just always so happy. I don't know if you can tell in the video, Elizabeth is just a sweetheart, but she has the biggest eyes, like pussing boots, which I know she's going to manipulate us later with. 

 10:19
Rachel Chumita
She's just really mild and laid back and she wants held all the time and she has a little cuddle bug and she just yeah, she's terrified of her brother because he's a bull in a china shop when it comes to his sister. 

 10:39
Mark Mellinger
Have you adjusted to twins life? I mean, I can't imagine having two newborns at the same time, and I know having one is hard. Do you think you've made the adjustment like you've got a routine down? 

 10:52
Chris Chumita
Yeah, especially now that went through sleep training. That's really helped quite a bit. 

 10:59
Mark Mellinger
Sleep training? Really? Tell me about that. 

 11:03
Rachel Chumita
It was rough. We asked a lady who does it. We hired a sleep consultant and so essentially you stay in the room so that they know that you're there, but sometimes you just have to let them cry. It's amazing how quickly because for the first what was that? That was just after six months we started sleep training and so it was amazing for the first six months, every time they'd start to cry, you'd be like, grab them before they wake up their sibling. It was amazing to me how quickly they adapted to sleeping through each other's meltdown. You'd have one like just screaming and the other one would just be fast asleep and so it was an interesting experience. It was intense, but I think we're coming out pretty well on the other side. 

 11:59
Mark Mellinger
Well, it's a great takeaway for people who do have twins. I love your story. You guys have been so good to share it and the kids have been so good. You've held them the whole time and they've been great. I don't want to make it too long. We're about ready to wrap up. Anything else about your embryo adoption experience or journey that you two felt is important and wanted to share? 

 12:24
Chris Chumita
I just think it's what's great about needic is it's such a pro life message. It's an area in the pro life movement, I think, that's very neglected because as Christians, we all believe that life begins its conception and there's hundreds of thousands of babies that just need adopted and need a chance to live life. It's something I wish that more pro life groups and other churches would get behind and help promote it. We all really like, too, how Edith can work with people financially as well and how much more affordable it is than traditional adoption and IVF amen. 

 13:02
Mark Mellinger
It is all of those things. You're right, it is still the corner of both the pro life and pro adoption movements that the church is capital C church is just learning about. Well, no meltdowns. They're just now starting to get a little fussy. It is the perfect time to wrap up this episode. Chris, Rachel and Ezekiel and Elizabeth, I want to thank you all so much. You have a beautiful family and this was so much fun. 

 13:28
Rachel Chumita
Okay, thank you very much. 

 13:29
Chris Chumita
Thank you so much. 

 13:30
Mark Mellinger
If you want to find out more about the National Embryo Donation Center, you can go to our website, embryodonation.org. Again, that's embryodonation.org. I'm Mark Mellinger. This has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

Just what does it mean to choose open embryo adoption through the National Embryo Donation Center (NEDC)? It’s a common question, and the answer looks different in every situation. NEDC moms Marti Bailey, Bethany Piechowski, and Nina Brenneman are sharing helpful insights in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.

FULL TRANSCRIPT (Please note there may be spelling, factual, or grammatical errors as this was generated by AI.)


00:01
Mark Mellinger
When it comes to embryo adoption, how open is open? Maybe another way to ask the question is, are there various levels of openness? And if so, what do they mean? That's what we're going to dive into today here on the embryo adoption podcast. I'm your host, mark Mellinger. Brought to you by the National Embryo Donation center. Embryodonation.org. If you want more information on what we do, three NEDC moms joining us today to talk about this. Bethany Piowski, Nina Brennaman and Marty Bailey. Ladies, so good to have you here. And Bethany and Marty, I'm going to start with you. You two chose open adoption. Nina chose closed. We'll talk with Nina in a second, but let's start with the two of you. Bethany and Marty. I don't care who wants to go first, but unpack why you chose to do open adoption, I'll go first. 

00:53
Marti Bailey
Since mine are the oldest. I would say that I was asked to consider it at first because there was a mom in Knoxville and a dad who had donated their embryos and really wanted a very close relationship with someone in Knoxville. They were in Knoxville as well. And my husband and I prayed about it, and we decided sure we would do that. And the reason why they wanted a very close one is because they were older and they were afraid that when they died, their one only child would be without any family. And so we connected and talked before transfer. Unfortunately, those embryos, they didn't make the fall. So then my next one was so I did have a transfer. It was with closed, but I lost those. So then my next one, I was also once again told that, oh, there's this great family for you. 

02:00
Marti Bailey
And because the embryologist knew I wanted a really large family and said, hey, they have 25 embryos, and so would you consider them? So I did, but I put limits on it because I knew from my first experience that I couldn't handle because I had gotten close to the family. So not only did I grieve for those embryos that didn't thaw out, I grieved for them not having that relationship that they desired for their child. And so, after that experience, I decided I've got to set some limits for myself. I cannot have contact with them until after a live birth. And so I did. And then my children were born early at 30 weeks. And so I contacted them, just letting them know health information. They were in the NICU for 40 days, 46 actually. And so I just gave them basic health information. And that is kind of why the donor mom donated her embryos. 

03:13
Marti Bailey
She said she wanted somebody to contact her if they were in need of health emergency. She wanted to be able to help out. So it just started from there, and it evolved. So just kind of like any normal relationship, you have a starting point. You meet someone and you have something in common. For us, obviously, it was infertility and the embryos and you just kind of evolved from there. So we just started out giving information over the Internet, and it just kind of grew when we connected. So then she asked me, I invited her to her family was in Connecticut and I'm in Tennessee, but I went ahead and asked them to their first birthday party, which I figured they wouldn't come because it's a long trip and they declined, but they were thankful for the invitation. And then we just prayed about it and thought we'd like to meet. 

04:15
Marti Bailey
And so we decided kind of on a neutral ground and we'd go on vacation together. And so that was our first meeting. And it was scary at first, but we ended up having a great time. And so then we just continued to email. And the next year went to their house in Connecticut and got to meet. And then at that point, were asked to do a blog together for the NEDC. And I would say at that point, once we started writing for the blog, we actually had less communication with each other because all we had to do was read each other's blogs and know what was going on in our life. So from there, we would just contact each other if we had questions or anything like that. So went to Disney together a couple of times when they were young. I would say we've had more contact when they were younger and we just hit it off. 

05:21
Marti Bailey
Patty. And I did. I just felt like kindred spirits. And so were asked oftentimes at Disney if were sisters because we look so much alike. But as the children have gotten older, they just turned 15 yesterday. I have found that we have less communication with them. When they were in 6th grade, they were asked to go to their beach house and we dropped everything and went. And we had a great time. Their oldest sibling works at Disney. Last year were at Disney for their birthday and he so lovingly agreed to meet us. And then yesterday we just got a text, happy birthday to the twins. And so I haven't talked to him, but if I had a medical question, in fact, I did, because Julian had some allergies this year, I text her and say, hey, are your kids allergic to peanut butter? And I said, okay, this is all his allergies. 

06:20
Marti Bailey
He just got tested. A lot of it started off as medical and then we grew a relationship, but life happens. And I would just say it's fluid, it's in and out. And my children have the option to contact their biological siblings or not. And it's kind of up to them. But I would say it's just kind of like all relationships. Sometimes it's gone closer and sometimes we haven't really talked at all. And we might just have a card in the mail at Christmas or something. 

06:57
Mark Mellinger
Well, and that's a really good perspective, Marty. I really appreciate that. And one reason we're doing this podcast is to let people know that as beautiful as that relationship is, you've met in person several times, you've taken vacations together. That is not always what open looks like. That can be great if that's what you want. Other people thinking of something like that absolutely leaves them scared spitless. Now, Bethany, let's talk about your open situation, because to the degree that you're able, I know yours is not quite to the level of marty's, explain why you chose open and what parameters you wanted to set. 

07:43
Bethany Piechowski
Sure. So when my husband and I first started going through the process, we didn't really know what we wanted. So were really seeking counsel from the social worker that were looking or that were working with, and we originally were planning on doing closed. And I guess, as an aside, what's really important in this is that there's no right or wrong answer whether you choose closed or open and whether you choose if you do choose open, if it's contact at age 18, or all the way to going on a vacation together. I think it's a very individual decision based on what the recipients are looking for, what the donors are looking for, and so on. So I think it's really important to point that out. But for us, we had originally opted for closed, and that's just what our gut told us. But we didn't know if that was the right thing. 

08:40
Bethany Piechowski
And so in seeking counsel from the social worker, her she had shared just, I guess, the general concept of no surprises, right. Most kids will want to know where they came from. And so we really grabbed onto that perspective and thought, well, let's try to navigate down this path and see if that's something that makes sense to us, knowing that in this day and age, even if you choose closed, it's essentially open. Right. With the 23 ANDME and all of the resources that are out there, even those that choose closed eventually, whether it's now or down the line, probably have the option of finding at least some family members at some point, whether it's the original donors or related family members. But anyhow, so went down the path and made a decision to do open. And as we thought and prayed about it, we decided, let's really go for it and see if we can do a very open relationship. 

09:54
Bethany Piechowski
And so it took us some time to get matched and we landed with a couple that we really thought we could have a great relationship with. So went into transfer and had a very transparent relationship. And then partway through the pregnancy, on the second transfer, our child's biological father passed away. And it changed the trajectory of the relationship, and we have the utmost respect for our child's biological mom and family, and we are very respectful of her needs and her wishes she had pulled back during that time, and we completely understand. So we are taking it one step at a time, and as the relationship unfolds and develops, we will go to where she wants, and that is perfectly okay with us. The benefits that we had identified for Open and what we had found to be valuable was the medical information side. Our child does have some medical issues, and we have needed that medical information in managing his health issues. 

11:23
Bethany Piechowski
And so that has been helpful. So what was originally intended for Open has not turned out that way, and that's perfectly okay. So we take it one step at a time and with the utmost respect for the gift that were given, and we go from there. So where is it going? I don't know. And that's okay. We'll figure it out as we go. 

11:49
Mark Mellinger
Yeah. And that's life, right? I have some follow up questions for both of you, Marty and Bethany. But Nina, I want you to jump in here. You chose closed. You have two NEDC children. Why did you decide to go closed? 

12:05
Nina Brenneman
Well, I'm adopted. I was placed as a four day infant with a biological birth mother who chose adoption early on, created an adoption plan, the whole nine yards. My adoption has always been considered closed, and that was what I understood. And I chose closed because I can parent that. I can identify with all of the questions that are going to come up. I can emotionally understand and absolutely handle all of the questioning and the confusion and all of the things that are going to come up when my children have questions about their origin or understanding all of that. And they have a confusing origin. I mean, it's confusing to have a four year old to explain embryo adoption to a four year old. It's very easy to explain traditional adoption to a four year old, which is about the time I've always known I was adopted. 

13:11
Nina Brenneman
But that's really about the time I remember conceptualizing what it was. Embryo adoption is not something that a four year old can grasp, much less a two year old. I mean, they parrot back their story. And so once that clicks, it's going to bring up a lot of confusion and a lot of questions. And I went through all of that because I did not have access to biological parents. I did not have access to much information about them just based on the nature of my adoption. So we chose closed because I can parent that. And quite frankly, choosing the closed route is just a lot more simple. You don't really have to parse out exactly what you're looking for. You don't have to sell yourself to or present yourself to the donor. The couples that are looking to place their embryos. And as I characterize it's a tomorrow problem. 

14:19
Nina Brenneman
And so I felt confident and comfortable with it, more so than open. Just because of my story of origin and my family of origin and how I was raised, which is all positive. I see my adoption as a blessing and a positive inflection point in my life, and I'm grateful for it. So I can raise children that way, basically, is why we chose closed to put an additional kind of level of it's a little more complicated, just because of the origin, just because embryo adoption is not something a four year old, five year old, six year old is necessarily going to be able to understand. But we can deal with that and navigate it well because I've likely encountered all of those problems and concerns. And if my son we have a daughter and a son, and if my son, if Dean has questions that I may not be able to answer or identify with, my brother's adopted and we're very close, and so he can and will happily help in that aspect too. 

15:28
Nina Brenneman
So we have the resources and we have the ability just by the nature of who we are. And so we felt more confident with that than pursuing open makes sense in your situation. 

15:42
Mark Mellinger
I can completely see why you would choose Closed. And by the way, a disclaimer here. Before we get to some follow up questions for you all, we at the National Embryo Donation Center are not here to advocate one route over another. That's not at all the purpose of this podcast. That's nothing that we're here to do. We're really investigating what open can mean because that's something that is confusing to a lot of people. There are pros and cons as you look at each. Nina, you brought it up. If you go open, it's going to take longer. It's going to take a month to month and a half longer for your frozen embryo transfer to happen. It's going to be considerably more expensive. You're going to spend close to a couple of least that you wouldn't spend if you were going closed. On the other hand, there are advantages to open, as Bethany has pointed out. 

16:40
Mark Mellinger
And Marty, there's the advantages of faster access to medical history, your child's genetic medical history, perhaps more readily accessible. Are there genetic origins? You can add a relationship, a beautiful relationship to your life, and usually that's how it works in open relationships. Not always. Sometimes that relationship you add actually gets messy and it's not a blessing. So there's no certainty, there's no guarantee, and there are pros and cons. Either way, I thought it was important to at least issue that disclaimer before we continue this interview. Okay, Marty and Bethany, I want to talk to both of you. Like Marty, it sounds like you ended up really pressing in to your relationship with your donor family more than you originally expected how much of what your relationship looks like now was dictated by your open donation agreement that you worked out with a social worker more than 15 years ago. 

17:51
Marti Bailey
I can say I don't even remember what we even said. But I can tell you 100% that the donor mother 100% thought, I will just share my medical information. And because she had so many embryos, I will say she has two other families and they aren't as open as her and I that I know of. In fact, one of the other families has come to my house and I have met them and they have stayed with me, but they didn't feel comfortable meeting Patty and her family for whatever reason, and that's fine. That is a choice. So her open with them is interestingly, more closed off than with me, whatever, and that's fine. And like I said, I think it's changed because I think one, because of Natalie and Julian health, I think when they were born and were looking, are they going to live? 

19:03
Marti Bailey
And just updating, okay, please pray for them. This is what we've got now. And just continuing, I think it connected them. Like, everybody's praying for these babies and thank you so much. Look how they've grown and look at answered prayers. And then she would just share more with me. And I'm like, oh, I could relate to that. And just as we got to know each other through email, back and forth, I remember the first time we talked on the phone, she couldn't get over my Southern accent. There was a lot of newness it was kind of frightening, honestly. But the Lord met me there and met both of us there, and I was scared to go to her house. I was fearful. But even her extended family, they welcomed us and loved on us. And when I walked into her house and went up the stairs, she had done a cross stitch birth announcement, the exact same one I had done for my children. 

20:14
Marti Bailey
I don't think cross stitching is a huge thing people do much anymore. So I just felt that was God's reassurance, that it's going to be okay, you're doing the right thing. I'm here with you through the fear because it is scary. And I think any relationship is whether you're talking about a boyfriend, girlfriend, if you're talking about whatever, because it's uncertain, you don't know how it will go. But I do feel 100% blessed by it and would I like to have more information, maybe not information. If they lived closer, we would probably see each other more. But I don't feel any pressure to send them a birthday card or send them a card. If I forget, no big deal. If they forget, no big deal. So it's just to me, it's developed now into a normal relationship where just life happens. And now Natalie and Julian have the option. 

21:23
Marti Bailey
But I can tell you their biological brother felt really blessed to see them last year on their birthday. And he really enjoyed, because he has two brothers, seeing how much Natalie and Julian are like him and his brothers, like how different they are, like, oh, yeah, Natalie's really shy. That's like my brother Chad. Or Julian's really outgoing, and he loves basketball. That's like my brother Joel. So that was really cool, I think, to see those different characteristics and see how they are in his family. 

22:02
Mark Mellinger
Yeah, that's great. And I love that you pointed out that your donor family does not have the same level of openness with some of their other recipient couples as they do with you. That is a truth that we really want to highlight and bring out as a result of this podcast, is that open relationships can constitute everything from near closed. You exchange an email, a letter, once a year. Maybe you share social media handles to going on vacation, seeing each other in person from time to time, as you all have. Bethany, yours is a little different, it sounds to me. Bethany, tell me if I'm wrong. I sure certainly could be. It sounds to me like whatever was decided in your open donation agreement, it's actually perhaps the opposite of what Marty's case is. You're probably not having as much contact as you stipulated, right? 

23:05
Bethany Piechowski
Yes. You go through and you set forth what your intentions are for frequency and types of contact. And yes, in our case, there's less. And that's okay, right? We hope and pray that it opens more as originally intended. But if it doesn't, then it doesn't. Our son's biological family is working through sharing the existence of our son and this process with him. And so our son has a biological brother, and that is becoming news to him. And so our collective hope, our son's biological mom, we believe, hopes based on what she shared, as well as we certainly hope that the two boys will at some point have a relationship as they grow. And they used one embryo and we used four, and that was what was in the batch. And so there are no other biological children in the group, and so maybe at some point that will develop. 

24:22
Bethany Piechowski
But yes, what we had originally intended in our agreement is not where we are today. And we respect that. Right. The best laid plans don't always work out that's life. And if it had turned out where we only had contact at age 18, then we would have respected that too. So I just think it's important to if you choose open, it's good to remember that you can have any level of openness from contact at age 18 or 25 or whatever the age is, all the way to going on vacation together. But if you stay stuck in what's in your agreement, and you are so firm about that, you're going to miss the potential for some flux in the relationship. And that's just the value of real life, that those things happen. So we will take it one day at a time. 

25:25
Mark Mellinger
Nina, you were telling me before we had this conversation that you're not dissatisfied with the choice you made. Clearly, closed was the right choice for you for the reasons that you mentioned. But you do say you didn't necessarily understand fully what open constituted when you and your husband were beginning the process with the NEDC. What do you wish would have been done differently? And would you have spent more time considering the option had you have better knowledge? 

26:03
Nina Brenneman
Sure. So under the NEDC's definition of open, choosing an open relationship, my very closed, very anonymous, traditional infant adoption would be considered open. So to further parse that out, my mom, my parents, from the day I was placed with them until I was 21, sent biannual updates to my adoption agency was just so that my birth family, should they choose to, could follow up and get non identifying, updated information on us. She did that for my brother. We were raised with a bunch of friends who were gladney babies, my adoption agency, and same thing for all of them too. It was just common practice. When I turned 25, my adoption agency got in touch with my mom and told me that my biological mother had passed away due to a cardiac condition that was genetic. Because her father, my maternal biological grandfather, was able to reach out to the adoption agency to share that information. 

27:22
Nina Brenneman
I was able to get screened. Should I have it, were going to be able to catch it and I would have been fine. That is considered open with Annie DC? 

27:36
Mark Mellinger
Yes. 

27:37
Nina Brenneman
And so my biological family never followed up to get information on me, but it didn't change my life. My brother's biological family, through his paternal aunts and uncles and grandparents and maternal, he had a very supportive biological family that did check up on him multiple times a year. And so it was closed until he was 32 and chose to initiate contact with them. Right. I have not chosen to initiate further contact just based on my preference. That being said, that would all be considered open with the NDC. And I did not know that was not further parsed out in any of the preliminary education or kind of the initial meetings discussing about the NADC and what open was and what closed was. So we just chose closed. I think that obviously, the children the Lord intends to give you, however they come about, are going to come about regardless of open or closed. 

28:53
Nina Brenneman
Embryo adoption, traditional adoption, biological parenting, carrying them the traditional way, I think it's all going to work out the way the Lord intends. But had we had that information, it would have opened up a different level of conversation between me andrew, my husband, on what we both felt comfortable with and it obviously would have opened up the potential donors. I mean, it would have opened up the batches of embryos and it would have given us a greater potential. And if it hadn't worked or weren't able to find a family, that would be kind of more into the child led contact at 18 intermediary discussion, the very closed open, the closed side of open, then anonymous or closed would have been fine too. But to Bethany's point, nothing is truly anonymous anymore. I mean, we can do 23, ANDME when children are 16 or 18 and really want that, I can do it. 

30:06
Nina Brenneman
If I really need to do that. I can also go through Gladney and get all of the information, should I choose to do that. But the piece about the life saving medical information is kind of the linchpin to why we would have considered a very closed side of open, because that condition is treatable if it's known, but it's rarely diagnosed before autopsy. 

30:38
Bethany Piechowski
To that point. It can also be for the benefit of the donors because something may come up with your biological child that your donors family hasn't seen but could see. Right. So there's a benefit in both directions and to the extent that open is chosen, but just for medical information, it can be just that. It doesn't have to morph into anything else. Right. And many donors want it that way as well. 

31:08
Nina Brenneman
Right. And I just think that information was not as clearly I don't know if it was clearly defined necessarily five years ago when we started doing that, or if I just missed it, I very easily could have just missed it. 

31:28
Bethany Piechowski
I think it's important for the donor nurses to have these conversations with the donors and the recipient nurses to have these conversations with the recipients. And like we've said a number of times, there's no right or wrong answer here. We're not advocating for closed versus open because it's a very individual decision, but there's education to be had in the options, I guess. 

31:50
Marti Bailey
Absolutely. 

31:55
Nina Brenneman
I have been pretty staunchly in the closed or anonymous group, mainly because you can feel a lot of pressure from kind of the social workers that you talk to about your home study and you go through. When you're reviewing your home study and the pre transfer education you need to go through, you can feel the pressure for open. And I took that personally because I have a closed adoption and so I have previously been in the very much like closed adoption children. The anonymous embryo adoption route is going to raise happy, healthy, flexible, resilient children. Just like parents who choose open, whatever end of the spectrum they choose, it whether it's open or just medical information. Maybe contact at 18, they're going to be able to raise the same children, the same types of kids. At the end of the day, both of them are completely valid and there should be no pressure either way. 

33:02
Nina Brenneman
To Bethany's point, my closed, very anonymous adoption from the perspective of an embryo of the NEDC specifically is not closed. Right. Which is fine. I just wish that had been more of a point made while were choosing what route we wanted to go. 

33:27
Mark Mellinger
These are really important points. And before we run just a couple things by way of response, I would say, Nina, it's an excellent point, really. We have now four people doing what one person was doing when the three of you came through the organization. So I will say this is one area where I think the NEDC has improved. We're always trying to get better. It's extremely possible that you didn't miss it when you went through. I would say it's it's entirely possible that, yeah, you know, it's it was the former of what you said and not the latter, so we are always trying to get better, and we've really beefed up our recipient and donor nurse and coordination teams. And I know the ladies that we have now in those roles are pretty firm on elucidating exactly what each route involves. But it's a good reminder if you're going through ask questions whether you're donating embryos, whether you're adopting embryos. 

34:38
Mark Mellinger
Just like when you go to the doctor, there is no such thing as a stupid question. You can email us, you can call us. If you don't get through to somebody else, email me or call me. I'll make sure you get through. That never bothers us where we want you to make the best decision for you and to be fully informed. Also, by way of explanation, I think it was just an important caveat to add, even if you go closed, you can still have access to that medical information. We have anonymous donors who do call. If a previously undiagnosed condition emerges, they let us know, and then it is passed on to the recipient family. So it's certainly more likely to happen. The access will be easier and more likely right, if you're open. But it can still happen and does still if you are if you're closed. 

35:36
Mark Mellinger
So man, such a good conversation. It's hard to know exactly how to end it, but I guess we'll do it here. I mean, each of you talk about the best part of what you chose and the hardest part. Let's start with you, Marty. 

35:59
Marti Bailey
I think the best part for me is seeing the children together and getting to see them laugh and cut up, because to me, it's all about the kids. When it boils down to it, that's what it's really about. So I enjoyed seeing them at Disney and seeing them enjoy their relationship. And I guess the hardest part is just being are you able to allow more people into your heart? Because the more people you allow, more things that can happen. But I've had a good situation, so I don't know. 

36:53
Nina Brenneman
But. 

36:53
Marti Bailey
I guess it just gives me more people to pray for. My list is just longer. 

36:58
Mark Mellinger
Bethany? 

36:59
Bethany Piechowski
I would say the best part is just the opportunities that exist in navigating this, right, and the opportunities to pray through it and knowing what potentials could be there. And if they're not there, then that's okay. So we see that as an opportunity and a bright side, I don't really see a downside. All of us going through this process are going to navigate the same issues, which is how do you explain this to your kids at the end of the day, whether you choose Open or closed, how do you explain this to your kids? And our NADC kiddo is five, like Nina's four year old, he doesn't really get it. It's a general conversation that we have around our house. Our kids are aware of this, but eventually it's going to click. There will be some, I'll say, explaining to do, right, because they need to be aware, but we don't really necessarily see that as a downside as opposed to just something that will be part of their story no matter which route is taken. 

38:16
Bethany Piechowski
So not necessarily a hard part, but just kind of a fact of life for all of us that are going through this process. But as it relates to a downside of choosing Open, we don't see a downside. We feel pretty blessed. 

38:35
Mark Mellinger
Nina, do you have a last word for us? 

38:37
Nina Brenneman
I do. So the best part of choosing Closed is that we have these two beautiful babies that are happy and healthy and fun and keep our hands and hearts full. I mean, that's really the end goal, right? So we're grateful to the Lord for that and to the NADC and the donors and all of that. I think, again, the hard part is just going to would be the same if we chose Open. It's just explaining this complicated concept as they continue to get older and just knowing some of the questions and concerns and things that are likely going to come up. Because I've been through it, maybe that's the hard part, but I don't necessarily see that as hard because I was raised with a bunch of kids and still am friends with a bunch of adopted children, people who are adopted as infants. And it's a wonderful thing and a great story. 

39:43
Nina Brenneman
And again, it all works out that's kind of the biggest thing I want to say is that it all works out the way that it should on the timing that it should. It may not be the way you necessarily want it in the beginning, but it works out the way that it should and it turns into a wonderful blessing. And if it was easy, everybody would do it. And so often the things you work the hardest for have the sweetest reward. And I think that kind of is the bottom line for me. Choosing Closed and totally anonymous multiple layers of anonymity in our situation is a good thing. I think it will eventually be a good thing. Still is a good thing, because we have two wonderful children because of that. So that's kind of my two cent. 

40:40
Bethany Piechowski
Well, let me say one more thing. 

40:42
Mark Mellinger
Bethany. 

40:42
Bethany Piechowski
Yeah, sure. That's such a good message. Nina and Mark, you and I were just having this conversation earlier this week of our expectations in whatever it is rarely God's path. And so trusting and praising him for him versus what actually unfolds. And what we had intended and hoped hasn't turned out the way we had intended and hoped. And we respect where we are, and we very much respect our donors. And that is what God has intended. Right. 

41:24
Mark Mellinger
Well said. Well said. If you're listening to this and you have any questions at all about this, feel free to get in touch with us at the National Embryo Donation Center. Our website is embryodonation.org. You can go to the About US page and you'll see my email address on there. You can email me directly if you have further questions. We really hope that this podcast episode, at least, is a beginning of you hopefully understanding what the different levels of openness can look like through the NEDC and to the point that Nina made earlier. Don't put pressure on yourself, which sometimes people do, whether it's intended or not. I don't think it usually is, but they may internalize something that's said to them and put pressure to go in one direction or another. No. This is between you and your spouse and the Lord. And there is, as you all have said, no wrong answer. Thanks again, ladies. So great to have the time with you. I'm Mark Mellinger, and this has been the embryo adoption podcast. 

You never know just what God will use to touch someone’s heart. For Lauren & Joe, a special childcare program called Safe Families eventually led them to a passion for embryo adoption. What followed were challenges: a longer than expected wait, Joe trying to overcome his anxiety about needles & giving shots, grieving the loss of an embryo that failed to thrive. But waiting at the end of it all was the baby boy who’s now brightening their home (and this podcast is getting released on his one-year transfer anniversary!). There’s so much to glean from their story, which they’re sharing in this episode of The Embryo Adoption Podcast. Learn more at embryodonation.org.