Dr. Kyle Payne, a strategic talent development leader based in Chicago, describes his recent study exploring how professional engineers navigate ethical dilemmas. 

Kyle has fifteen years of experience driving process improvement and behavior change through training, coaching, and consulting. In his research, he focuses on unethical behavior at work and examines the behaviors of “ethical followers” who resist unethical behavior and call into question unethical thinking. 

• “There was a lot of mention of protecting the public, protecting themselves, that sense of being a moral person, protecting colleagues, protecting the profession as well.”
• “I’m hearing these examples of very creative and courageous actions, and yet, that same participant is telling me, I wish I could have acted sooner.” 
• “It’s not just a decision, you really need to have a space where you can express these concerns, where you can feel heard…otherwise I’m not sure where you develop that sense of self-efficacy.”

Research References 

• Mary Uhl-Bien, Ronald E. Riggio, Kevin B. Lowe, Melissa K. Carsten. Followership theory: A review and research agenda. The Leadership Quarterly, Volume 25, Issue 1, 2014, Pages 83-104.
•  Carsten, M. K., & Uhl-Bien, M. (2013). Ethical Followership: An Examination of Followership Beliefs and Crimes of Obedience. Journal of Leadership & Organizational Studies, 20(1), 49-61.
•  Chaleff, I. (2009). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders (3rd ed.). Berret-Koehler Publishers.
• Hernandez, M., & Sitkin, S. B. (2012). Who is leading the leader? Follower influence on leader ethicality. In D. D. Cremer, & A. E. Tenbrunsel (Eds.), Behavioral business ethics: Shaping an emerging field (pp. 81-104). Routledge. 
• Kassing, J. (2011). Dissent in organizations. Polity Press.

Other References 

• Kasia Urbaniak, Unbound
• https://www.amazon.com/Unbound-Womans-Guide-Kasia-Urbaniak-ebook/dp/B084FKX7XV/
•  S1 E8: How Courageous Followers can stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
• https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales
•  Global Followership Conference – April 25-26, 2024
• http://www.followershipconference.com

Connect with Dr. Kyle Payne:

 Website: http://www.kylepaynephd.com

 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kyle-payne-phd-98567b50/

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
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Hi Everyone, this is Sharna. I’ve spent the beginning of the year in a resting phase with the podcast, letting the new season slowly take shape in my mind. New episodes are coming soon, in early March, and I’m hoping this little preview will give you a sense of how I’m thinking about season 3 as a collection of conversations.

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Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden
The Ezra Klein Show
 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/democrats-have-a-better-option-than-biden/id1548604447?i=1000645559771

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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In this short, end-of year episode, host Sharna Fabiano reflects on season 2 and shares three  compelling lead and follow ideas to try out in your own life and work in 2024. Please send feedback on Season 2 along with suggestions for Season 3 directly to Sharna at sharna@sharnafabiano.com.

Special thanks to Glover Gill for providing our music.

Lead & Follow, by Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

The FREE Lead & Follow  Skill Sheet
https://www.sharnafabiano.com/book/

Unbound: A Woman's Guide to Power, by Kasia Urbaniak
https://www.kasiaurbaniak.com/unbound-book

S1 E 23: The Necessity of Followership in Peace Building – Pedro Portela
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/10291927-the-necessity-of-followership-in-peace-building-pedro-portela

S1 E12: Followership Skills as Part of Professional Development - Brian Rook
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9075187-followership-skills-as-part-of-professional-development-brian-rook

S1 E8: Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

Letters to Leaders
http://www.esbeworks.com/diagnostics

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds is Interim Chair of the Management, Marketing, and Public Administration Department in the College of Business at a Historically Black University, and Co-Chair of the Global Followership Conference 2024.  Her research focus is on toxic followership (people following bad people).  She is an author, and internationally recognized toxic followership expert with a passion for positive change.  Dr. Edmonds describes herself as a Workplace Toxicologist whose mission is to dismantle toxic followership and foster healthier, more productive environments. 

Wendy shares the characteristics of this important - if darker - aspect of followership and how it influences how powerful or powerless we may feel in our every day lives as employees, as members of a community, or as citizens.  We also discuss how to use popular media and physical role plays in the classroom to inspire rich conversations about different kinds of followership and leadership choices.
 
 

“Toxic followership is consistent destructive behavior over and over again.”
 
 “We have to begin to have others understand that it doesn’t matter where you are – you have power that you can make the change.”
 
 “How you use power is what’s most important.”

Episode References

CNN: Escape From Jonestown
https://vimeo.com/244066619

 
 S1 E8- Courageous Followers can Stop Destructive Leadership - Alain de Sales
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8716279-courageous-followers-can-stop-destructive-leadership-alain-de-sales

 Time of Essence documentary - the story of Essence Magazine
https://www.oprah.com/app/time-of-essence-full-episodes.html

Self-made TV series – inspired by the life of Madame CJ Walker
https://www.netflix.com/title/80202462

Intoxicating Followership, by Wendy M Edmonds
https://www.amazon.com/Intoxicating-Followership-Jonestown-Wendy-Edmonds/dp/1800714599

Global Followership Conference
http://www.followershipconference.com
 
 Connect with Dr. Wendy M. Edmonds
https://www.drwendymedmonds.com/

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
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Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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Langley Sharp is the former head of the Centre for Army Leadership, responsible for championing leadership excellence across the British Army.  After graduating from Sandhurst two decades ago, his career in the Parachute Regiment, which included operational command at every rank, saw him deployed to Northern Ireland, Macedonia, Afghanistan and Iraq. Among his many varied roles, he led a counter-insurgency Task Force operation, commanded a Parachute Regiment Battalion and delivered the Ministry of Defence’s training programme for the London 2012 Olympics venue security. He is the author of the British Army’s official account of leadership, The Habit of Excellence, distilling over three centuries of the Army's experience in the art, science and practice of leadership. And he is Founder and Director of the consultancy firm Frontier Leadership.

In this episode, Langley shares how and why followership is now becoming more explicit in the Army’s official documentation of itself, and how that articulation will in turn refine the way service members are trained in the future.

"Warfare is not a place for individuals."

“When you have to think about who’s following and who’s leading, there’s probably something wrong in the team”

“You need good followership to have good mission command.”

“Our ability to scale collaboration enables us to do great things when it works well.”

 
Episode References

> Langley Sharp, The Habit of Excellence

> British Army Doctrine Note on Followership

> Centre for Army Leadership Conference 2023 - Creating Effective Followership

“Freedom, however, is not the last word. Freedom is only part of the story and half of the truth. Freedom is but the negative aspect of the whole phenomenon whose positive aspect is responsibleness. In fact, freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness.”
–Frankl. V.E. (1992). Man’s Search for Meaning, 4th edition. Boston: Beacon Press, 134.

Kelley R.E., The Power of Followership: How to Create Leaders People Want to Follow and Followers Who Lead Themselves, New York: Doubleday, 1992

Chaleff, I. (1995). The courageous follower: Standing up to and for our leaders. San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler Publishers.

"For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.”
–Rudyard Kipling, The Jungle Book

Connect with Langley Sharp

https://frontierleadership.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/langley-sharp/

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

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David Elser, author of Doing the Chores, shares his concept of smart followership through personal stories of growing up on a small family farm in northwest Ohio.  David is a learning and development professional based in Coldwater Lake, Michigan who has over 30 years of experience in the transportation industry. He works with employees at all levels, from essential front-line workers to executive leaders. David has a master's degree in organizational management and is a Certified Professional Coach. 

“[Smart followership] is having the willingness and ability to enthusiastically and effectively provide support.” 

“What if we brought into the organization smart followership skills training, what would that mean?”

 "Sometimes its best to step back and let others come up with the solution."

Episode References

Shirtless Dancing Guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW8amMCVAJQ

Trust, Followership, and Leadership in Non-Profit Change Processes - Tom Klaus
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/9340458-trust-followership-and-leadership-in-non-profit-change-processes-tom-klaus

Training Everyone in Both Leadership and Followership – Samantha Hurwitz
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13325495-training-everyone-in-both-leadership-and-followership-samantha-hurwitz

 HR Perspective on Followership and Leadership Training - Julie Newman
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/13364704-hr-perspective-on-followership-and-leadership-training-julie-newman

Connect with David Elser

Doing the Chores Website
https://doingthechores.com

Doing the Chores Book (adults)
https://a.co/d/esqqdoS

Doing the Chores Book (kids)
https://a.co/d/9QvryVq

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/FollowSmart

LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-r-elser-5a17655
 

*
Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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David Scott is a PhD Researcher at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow, Scotland. He is exploring Followership Salience as a factor of Leadership in Organisations, and is also a Visiting Lecturer in Business at Leeds Trinity University. 

In this episode, he shares his concept of followership as informal leadership, and his view on how the universal practice of followership and followership-centric leadership within organizations can help diversify executive teams and boards to meet UN Sustainable Development Goals.
  
David is a highly experienced Company Director and Charity Trustee with particular interest in effecting positive environmental and social change through people. He is  Co-Chair of the 2024 Global Followership Conference hosted by the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow.

“We came up with the definition of followership as ‘purpose-focused informal leadership’” 

“It’s impossible to be a role model without being a leader.”

“By me thinking of myself first and foremost as a followership practitioner. It removes the fear when someone else wants to lead me, even as a chief executive of a large organization.”

“Taking this followership-centric approach enabled so many more team players to come into the mix…to ensure that we as an organization stayed true to our purpose.”

Episode References

Jimmy Collins, Creative Followership
https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Followership-Greatness-Jimmy-Collins/dp/1929619480

Philip Meilinger, “The 10 Rules of Good Followership”
https://engineeringmanagementinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/10_Followship_Rules_Meilinger.pdf

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower: Standing up To and For our Leaders
https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738

Edmonstone, J. (2003), "Learning and development in action learning: the energy investment model", Industrial and Commercial Training, Vol. 35 No. 1, pp. 26-28.

Mango, E. (2018) 'Rethinking Leadership Theories'. Open Journal of Leadership, 7 (01), pp. 57-88.

Barbara Kellerman
https://barbarakellerman.com/

Julian B. Rotter, Locus of Control
https://www.simplypsychology.org/locus-of-control.html

Connect with David Scott
https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhunterscott/

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
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Christian Monö is a Speaker, Author and Sweden’s first and only followership expert. 
In this episode, he shares what he has discovered in more than 15 years exploring what he calls “natural followership." We discuss how our human ancestors self-organized in egalitarian band societies, and also how the leadership industry is affecting people, businesses and societies today. Among Chris' clients are the Swedish Armed Forces, and he has a new book coming out in English in 2024.

“[Natural followership] is the process of how people instinctively follow each other without being guided by formal rules or regulations.”

“We like to follow people who can help us get where we already want to go.”

“As soon as you create an environment in which people feel they are not free, they will start reacting to it.”

“In natural followership the group sets the vision not a leader.”

“When it comes to changing the world it’s not the leaders who do it; it’s the followers.”


Episode References

Robert Kelley, Power of Followership

Valve Software
https://www.valvesoftware.com/en/

 Buurtzorg
https://www.buurtzorg.com/
https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2017/may/09/buurtzorg-dutch-model-neighbourhood-care

 Björn Lundén Information
https://bjornlundenblogg.se/sv/mina-bocker/2021/10/sim-metoden/

Connect with Chris Monö

Website - https://www.followership.se/

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-monoe/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/followership.se/

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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This episode is a conversation about integrated leadership-followership education, featuring both Fatema Haque, Academic Program Manager & LEO Adjunct Lecturer at the Barger Leadership Institute at the University of Michigan, and also Dorine Lawrence-Hughes, Assistant Dean of Undergraduate Education at the University of Michigan. They are both involved in the introduction of followership to the Barger Leadership Institute curriculum and I’m excited to have them on the show together to talk about that process and how it’s preparing students for both professional and community work.

 
“It helps students to see the necessity of the critical consciousness that comes with good followership.”

“Giving students agency to pick what they want to work has been really essential.”

“Talking about what it means to be a good follower, what it means to be ethical, what it means to hold our leaders accountable, is good and necessary work that we need to be doing now.”

“This topic blows students away.”

Episode Resources 

Barger Leadership Institute, University of Michigan
https://lsa.umich.edu/bli

Barbara Kellerman, Bad Leadership
https://www.amazon.com/Bad-Leadership-Happens-Matters-Common/dp/1591391660

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://www.amazon.com/Courageous-Follower-Standing-Our-Leaders/dp/1605092738

Basil Read, Read & Read Leadership and Management Consultants, LLC
https://www.read-read.com/

Marc and Samantha Hurwitz, Leadership is Half the Story
http://www.teachingfollowerscourage.com

Brazen Communication
https://brazencommunication.com/

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
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I speak with Erica Dawson, Professor of Practice and Nancy and Bob Selander Executive Director of the Engineering Leadership Programs at Cornell University.

Erica’s Montana upbringing instilled in her a deep sense of connection to the mountains and outdoors. But her thirst for adventure was too big even for the Big Sky State, so eventually she made the leap to New York to pursue a PhD in Social Psychology at Cornell University. She went on to become a professor at the Yale School of Management, where her intellectual interests expanded from judgement and decision-making to themes of developing human potential. As a Faculty Fellow of the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at MIT, she has traveled the world teaching ethical leadership to audiences as diverse as Tibetan monks, European women pharmaceutical scientists, and Colombian judges. 

Erica left Yale after a decade to found the US-Israel Center for Innovation and Economic Sustainability at UC-San Diego, then returned to Cornell in 2012 as the founding Executive Director of the Cornell Engineering Leadership Program.  

As you can see, Erica has a fascinating and varied background. I invited her to speak on the podcast because she has built and continues to build followership into the engineering leadership curricula in very fundamental and transformative ways, and there is a lot to learn from what’s been happening there over the past decade.


“If you don’t have an appreciation for what it is to be an active, effective, powerful follower, you absolutely cannot be an active, effective, powerful leader.”

“Some people have never identified that if I’m showing up and I’m just disengaged, I’m costing the group something. There’s a responsibility to either become engaged or exit myself, because it’s a cost.”

“For some…understanding that followership is a very active role, where you own your own ability to both support and challenge, that’s pretty novel.” 

“When we teach followership we are teaching the fundamental skills of being able to have influence from any position in a team or an organization, and that’s actually what people want.”

Episode References

Ira Chaleff, The Courageous Follower
https://irachaleffauthor.com/books-the-courageous-follower/

Cornell Engineering Leadership Programs
https://leadership.engineering.cornell.edu/

S1 E5: Equitable Leading and Following in the Coaching Relationship - Amy Lombardo
https://leadfollow.buzzsprout.com/1735834/8586603-a-model-of-equitable-leading-and-following-in-the-coaching-relationship-amy-lombardo

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Connect with your host Sharna Fabiano
https://www.sharnafabiano.com

Order the book: Lead & Follow
https://www.amazon.com/Lead-Follow-Dance-Inspired-Teamwork/dp/1646632796/

Support the Show!
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