Role of a Department Chair: My Path from Student Affairs to Academic Affairs

Transitioning Toward Inclusivity and Excellence in Student Affairs

Student affairs professionals are essential to the fabric of higher education, guiding students through their transformational college journey while grappling with their own career advances. Dr. Anna Gonzalez, NASPA's incoming board chair, brings her extensive experience in higher education to the forefront in a recent episode of the Student Affairs Voices from the Field podcast. As a first-generation college student and Filipino immigrant, she not only shares the lessons of her personal history but also sets the stage for the future of student affairs.

Embracing Identity and Leading with Inclusion

A journey marked by immigration at a young age, the pursuit of education, and ultimately, a leadership role in NASPA, Dr. Gonzalez's story is one of overcoming barriers and bringing true diversity to student affairs. Her advocacy for first-generation students, her stride in higher education policy, and her commitment to fostering diversity enrich the conversation around transitions within the student affairs profession.

Pioneering Change Amidst Global Challenges

In these times of global connectivity and unforeseen challenges, such as the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Gonzalez's experience transitioning to a significant role at WashU and her decision to accept the position as NASPA chair are testaments to adaptability and resilience. The interview, spanning two continents, showcases the transformative power of leaders who embrace change and prioritize the well-being of their colleagues and students.

Fostering Well-Being and Job Satisfaction in Student Affairs

The podcast delves into the crucial role of mid-level professionals in student affairs and the specific, intentional support they require. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Gonzalez emphasize the importance of strong supervision and staff recognition, addressing job satisfaction, workforce diversity, and benefits to cultivate healthy work-life balance. The ongoing dialogue underscores the necessity of redefining expectations for salaried employees in higher education and promoting a culture that appreciates the indispensable contributions of student affairs professionals.

The Path Forward: Advocacy and Policy in Higher Education

The episode not only celebrates the trajectory of Dr. Gonzalez but also presents crucial touchpoints for the future of student affairs, including advocacy in higher education policy. It illuminates the structural changes needed to recognize the value of student affairs and its impact on students and the civic health of society at large. Dr. Gonzalez's presidency promises to bring these concerns to the forefront, ensuring that higher education remains a pillar of opportunity and empowerment for all students.

Conclusion: A Call to Action for Student Affairs Professionals

Dr. Anna Gonzalez's reflections offer a beacon of inspiration and a call to action for student affairs professionals to advocate for change, recognize their value, and create inclusive environments for learning and growth. Her leadership in NASPA champions these principles, urging educators and policymakers alike to consider the significant influence they have in shaping the future of higher education.

 

TRANSCRIPTS

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Welcome back to essay voices from the field where today we are thrilled to welcome NASPA's incoming board chair, doctor Ana Gonzalez. Doctor Gonzalez leads successful student affairs operations with a particular commitment to fostering diversity and inclusion in all aspects of student life. With 30 years of experience in higher education, she previously held positions at the University of California Irvine, the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign, and at Lewis and Clark College where she was a founding faculty member and program director for the master's program in student affairs administration in the Graduate School of Counseling and Education. Doctor Gonzalez most recently came from Harvey Mudd College, an institution within the Claremont Colleges consortium where she served as the vice president for student affairs as well as the program director and faculty member at the Claremont Graduate University. Her research interests are focused on first generation students, immigrant students, equity and diversity, higher education policy and governance, student affairs administration, and higher education finance.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:23]:
A 1st generation college student who immigrated to the US at the age of 10, doctor G graduated from Loyola Marymount University with a bachelor's degree in international business. She earned her master's in doctoral degrees, both in education, from Claremont Graduate University. Anna, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:40]:
Hi. How are you doing, Jill?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]:
I'm so glad to be speaking with you. We are spread wide apart on the globe today with you calling in from Hawaii, and I am currently sitting in Paris, France. So we appreciate the accommodation of the time zone action.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:01:54]:
This is fantastic. This is how our world is now, actually. We are global at all kinds of time zones, so it's fantastic.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:02]:
And I think fairly representative of how NASPA's growing too anyway.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:06]:
I definitely believe so. I think so. We'll definitely see it at the conference too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:09]:
Well, we've made a tradition out of interviewing the incoming NASPA board chair since Chris and I started collaborating on the show. So I believe you are the 5th board chair that we've had the pleasure of having on the show to talk about your transition, but this is the 1st time that our season has been themed to transitions while the board chair transition was happening. So we're we're right on point today.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:02:33]:
That's great. And I love the theme. I think that's perfect in terms of my life and my career, so I love it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:39]:
We've had probably the most outpouring of support for this particular theme. It's the 1st time we're ever doing a double season on the theme because so many people relate to the stories of transition that we've been sharing. And so I'm hoping yours will also be one that people can relate to today. We always like to start kind of with a big open question, though, which is, how did you get to your current seat? And that could be either as board chair or at WashU or both and or anywhere else in between.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:03:06]:
Well, I'll talk a little bit. I think about the WashU transition, and then I'll actually go into my job I mean, my NASPA chairmanship. The WASHI transition was something that happened. I was not looking for a change. I was at Harvey Mudd, small college, university, about 900 students in Southern California where I'm from, and I graduated from the Claremont Colleges. And so I thought I would stay there forever. The pandemic happened, which was a big transition for all of us globally, and I was, one of the people in charge of transitioning through the pandemic and afterwards. And I think that really gave me pause and thought of as the as I learned about the position at WashU, am I ready to go back to an in person with in a small school, which I loved, or am I ready to think about a bigger challenge in terms of the number of students in the middle of the country where there were so many things happening where the issue of my vote would matter.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:08]:
My my vote would matter in California, but I think my vote would matter more in the middle of the country at a place like Missouri. And I decided that I was ready for another transition. I survived. At times, I even weirdly thrived during the pandemic, and so I thought I had one more big oomph to give back to the higher education community as well as my own passions for being engaged in communities outside of higher ed, some were different, and so I decided to take the plunge and transition to WashU. My transition to NASH was so fascinating. I've been into organization active since, I think, 1994 when I was a new professional. Never thought I would be the NASPA chair. A lot of people say that.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:04:51]:
I never thought that. I never thought that's gonna be me, in large part because the people who I saw who were chairs didn't look like me. I think they were almost all male at that time and white. And so that just was this didn't seem like a place for me. I also worked at a cross cultural center. So I was in multicultural affairs. Loved, loved, loved it and, again, never saw people like me in those roles. And then people like Lori White, Doris Ching, and others started taking on this role of leading our wonderful organization.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:23]:
And that's when I thought, oh, it can happen. It can happen to someone with similar experiences like me. And over time, I decided to, I was nominated for different, leadership roles at NASPA. I also volunteered for others and eventually transitioned to this role.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:39]:
Would you mind sharing some of your identities since this is an audio only podcast? And you mentioned not being able to see yourself represented, it'd be great if you'd be willing to share who you are in that space.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:05:49]:
Oh, thanks so much, Jill. Yes. I'm born in the Philippines, so Filipino by birth. I always tell people culturally, my family, just the way we grew up, was so much connected with both Filipino, East Asian, and actually Chicano identities, being where I was in Southern she, her. Grew up as 1st gen limited income and went through college, really. 1st gen limited income through all that went to a significant part. And then I immigrated, so an immigrant to the United States as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:30]:
That's a lot of transitions. How have your transitions of identity being in your country of birth for a little while and then coming to the United States at kind of a younger age, how has that experience and that transition impacted your worldview on higher education?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:06:46]:
I first came to the United States, I told people and, oh, actually, we were at that time, I guess, we were undocumented too and didn't really have an understanding of that. Right? So as a child coming to United States, they didn't wanna tell people why we were coming. Right? That was a whole danger to that. So there had to be lots of secrecy. And so we literally were told we're just gonna go on this trip or a vacation to see the rest of our family again and be reunited with my parents. And so we went on a plane, came as immigrants, as young children, 10 and 6, my brother and I, and didn't really know. We were made to feel safe by our immediate family. We all lived together, my uncles and aunts.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:23]:
I think it was 17 people in a 3 bedroom house for a while even when we first came. Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:29]:
That's crowded.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:07:30]:
It was kinda crowded, but, you know, it was kind of a big summer party. Right? But, yes, it was crowded. I think the adults probably felt it more than the children. And so it was wonderful to grow up with cousins and my grandmother, in particular, who really took care of us, and she made such a significant impact in my life. And so went through that, and I remember not knowing. But I remember my aunts and, like, would always say, don't tell people about how you came here. Like, you just came, and we never talked about paper or being legal. It was when I first wanted to work that they said you can't get a job when I was in in my teens.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:02]:
Other people could start working, and they couldn't get a permit. And I remember oh my gosh. And then there was the amnesty that both Republicans and Democrats came together back in the day in 19 eighties, and they actually passed an amnesty for people like me who were in the country for a significant period of time, who were able to get to that whole transition of all of a sudden ruining the shadows to, I have my paper. And what did that green that that green card mean was hugely significant and transformative for my family, but we were doing the same things. We were obeying the laws. We were working. Everyone was working. Right? Paying taxes, actually.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:08:38]:
Right? Some of them were working in offices. And then all of a sudden, you get this green card and you get this sense of relief. But, really, I thought that was just the weirdest thing. At at 15 and 16, I remember thinking, this is weird, that that somehow that 1 piece of paper by 1 act would change our whole life when we were living and doing the same things. I

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:58]:
think that's such an important story within student affairs because we talk so much about supporting our students through their journey for documentation or journey for, you know, financial aid that those stories are also amongst us in the profession.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:19]:
Yeah. And I didn't really know how to talk about it. I actually learned a lot from students and staff who I work with who are undocumented and or who are DACA, and they're so brave. And I remember that they talk about it. They advocate for rights, and I just honor that. I honor their experiences. It it's similar to mine, but I didn't know how to voice it or talk about it until I listened to their stories.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:43]:
Did you move towards citizenship after your green card?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:09:45]:
Yes. That took a while because I actually wasn't sure. So that one, my family let us make the choice, which I love my dad and my mom, and I I love my family for allowing us as children. Right? We were still under 18 to make that choice for ourselves. But so I didn't become a citizen until after I could vote until, gosh, I was already a full time staff member. I really had to think about it and what that would mean for me. And finally, it was about voting, and I wanted to vote. It was important, and it was actually at a time when a lot of propositions in California were trying to take away rights, like affirmative action, like services to undocumented peoples, and even really immigrants in California that was happening.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:25]:
And so I thought, you know what? I need to become a citizen so I can vote.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:29]:
Tell us about that transition from being a green cardholder to being able to have that right to vote.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:10:34]:
Oh my gosh. You know, the privilege that you get as a citizen of the United States, the the privilege to vote, it is a right and a privilege, I have to say, but also like traveling. Many places that I could go to I remember I worked for a semester at sea. I took 4 voyages, a semester at sea, and some people had to get visas and other things. And I was like, oh, there's all these countries where if you're a US citizen, you don't have to do any of that. I'm like, oh my gosh. What's that mean? Or being asked questions showing documentation. I could say, yes, I was not born in the United States, but I could show them my passport, and it was like a big easy check.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:06]:
And so there was definitely a lot of privilege that I felt that I never take for granted because I used to not have that. And so I always honor that, and I I try to be a good citizen, I think. So

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]:
I think as American citizens, we often don't have the awareness that, you know, we hold I think it's right now the 7th most powerful passport in the world. There are quite a few ahead now, but that has to do with, you know, being able to enter other nations without applying for a visa or paying for a visa or simply just being allowed access instead of being denied think, puts us in an interesting position.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:11:46]:
Yes. It does. It really does. And I'm not sure we talk about this as much as we should in terms of even in higher education or in other places that we should talk about. Is what does that mean for us, the great responsibility that we should think about having the citizenship. There's the privilege, but also this great responsibility that we need to, like, discuss and really engage in and own, and we need to own it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:09]:
Let's talk more about responsibility, which is your NASPA board chairship. Every time we've had on a NASPA board chair, the one big theme that I can draw a line through each of you is that you're really occupying a space of stewardship for the organization rather than driving a personal agenda forward. And I think that's a big shift that happened when NASA shifted from electing a president to electing a board chair. But I'm wondering if you can talk about what you're hoping, the board you will lead will be able to achieve across the next year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:12:40]:
I think that's a great question. I've been thinking a lot. You know, when I ran from NASPA board chair for the listeners, I'll remind them that I ran on 3 things. I still am thinking about that. But the first is, and it is not in any order, healthy excellence. That means in terms of, like, what does well-being look like for our profession and not just the students. Right? We love the students, but this one is more us. This is more us as practitioners.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:03]:
It's time for us to think about how do we thrive in our roles, which I love, given all my work life in NASPA in term and student affairs, right, in terms of this is my profession, has always just been. I chose to be in it. But how do we thrive and be healthy, and how do we think of well-being when we have events that we go to? I mean, when you go to a national conference, it's like, oh, yay. 6 AM till, like, 2 AM. Right? Some people go that route. That is not healthy. You know? And and what does that mean? What does that look like? So even things like that. I really want us to engage in our work, in what we do, both the organization and our profession.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:13:40]:
I think the second one is of the mid level. That is our largest as a constituent single constituent. It is the largest membership of our organization. And what does a mid level mean? What competencies? And to break that group down further, right, into, like a mid level could be someone 7 years and someone, like, 28 years in the profession. And I think that's a huge, big gap. And so what does that look like, and how do we both break that down a little bit, and how do we honor the mid level. Right? People are wanna sometimes they're like, I'm happy where I'm at, but I wanna gain different skills. I wanna continue having an amazing life in the work that I do, but what does that mean? But some people in the mid level wanna be like, I wanna become a vice president or I wanna become president.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:24]:
Right? And what does that mean? Mid level also for me transitions. Do I stay in the field? Do I leave the field? Right? I think that's where we really have to engage our folks. So mid level for me is huge. And then the 3rd piece is and it's so important now is why higher education.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:38]:
Yeah. That's a big one for the US.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:14:40]:
It is. And the impact of higher education, the impact of student affairs in the purpose of students' lives, in young people's lives, and in countries in the civic health of our nation? And I think the answer is higher education. And I think student affairs is actually the the big the change agent and the why of higher ed. I think it's what we do and what we, as professionals, teach our students. And so those are my big three for NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:08]:
Let's touch back on that midlevel piece because I think a lot about to the transitions that can feel very, very large in the midlevel from assistant director to associate director to director to perhaps senior executive director. Each of those levels within the midlevel carry their own transitions, their own responsibility differences, and their own growth. So we I think we tend to look at the mid level as a little bit of a bigger monolith than perhaps it actually is within student affairs. I think it's probably you know, there's smaller pieces within it. But what are you hoping for those mid level professionals

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:15:49]:
chunk, but we just call them 1 big, big level. Like, the mid level institute. Okay. That gives literally anyone. I mean, what does that actually mean? And so you I wanna make sure that we'd look at the breakdown of what what that is. And what does that mean for NASPA? I think it's being more intentional, not looking at the size of an event, but saying, you know what? We're gonna have mid level based on up to 10 years of experience, and that's gonna be a smaller group, and that's okay. Right? And we're going to look at the competencies that you need based on that versus, like, the competencies that you need. If you were a director executive director mid level, but only with with 12 years experience, but that's completely different than the previous group.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:16:32]:
So it's gonna have to it's gonna have to be that our association, our board, our regions, and even our divisions have to look critically at what we're doing for the mid level because we have lumped them too big, I think. And so it's just like, oh, the mid level. And that's, like, kinda the catchall. It shouldn't be the catchall.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:48]:
And some of our mid level professionals don't supervise other professionals but supervise students. Some of our mid level professionals supervise large teams, which can include professionals, graduate students, and undergraduate students. It's it's a wide band. And I think my one major complaint with our development as professionals really throughout my entire career is that there's really a lack of education on how to be a strong supervisor. And if you wanna go find that work, you really have to seek it for yourself, and I'd really love to see us develop more of that for our professionals anyway.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:21]:
I agree. That's great. See, me too. I'm excited. Gonna jump on the bandwagon. Let let's do this. I Let's go. Let's go.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:17:27]:
Let's go. I love it. I think it's if I could really leave anything the mid level is the big question, and I just wanna make sure. I walk around NASPA, and I'm like, you're a mid level. You're a mid level. You're a mid level. And what does that mean?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]:
Yeah. Absolutely. You also mentioned health and well-being as a priority, for our profession. I think that I've been seeing a real slide in terms of balance or integration with work life as of late. We did okay for some, but not for others in the pandemic. And now that we're coming out the other side, it feels like budgets are, you know, constantly being squeezed. People are being asked to do more with less or more people to jobs for the same amount of pay. So how are you hoping to promote that well-being knowing that there's a there you know, let's name it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:15]:
There's been of a bit of a morale hit to the profession as of late.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:19]:
Yes. No. I agree. It's I think it was already happening definitely before the pandemic. I think it got exacerbated during the pandemic, and it's still here. I told someone, it's not necessarily the money that you throw at people in terms of making them satisfied at their position. The way that things are, I I get it. If you're an entry level, it's not you're not gonna get 6 figures your 1st year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:42]:
I mean, that's not and even for many, it's not gonna be that way necessarily for for a while.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:47]:
Or possibly ever in this profession. Yeah.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:18:49]:
Right. Or possibly ever. Thank you. Like, thanks for saying that. And at the end of the day, even if that were that's not necessarily the only thing that's gonna give people job satisfaction. It is being noted for the good work that we do. It doesn't help when you turn on the news and the newspapers, and you're, like, working so hard. You're a resident you're a RCD.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:13]:
You just stayed up all night helping save a student's life. You know you made an impact, and then you turn on the news and you have people say, let's close down colleges and universities. Like, okay. No. Don't do that. Right? They just did something great. That doesn't help either to work in a field where people are saying they don't trust you. So one is, like, how do we honor and celebrate our staff, our our fantastic staff members.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:19:36]:
Right? And we have fantastic staff members. I think too is how do we engage it so that the work doesn't become routine? Because there is a boredom factor to it. It's like the same old, same old. I'm not saying necessarily we're gonna make up a new job for someone, but how does it become exciting? How do we make sure that our staff equitably get opportunities to serve, for example, on different committees? So once it you know, so one day, it'll be your turn to serve on a building project. How exciting is that to be the capital projects? Not necessarily just people with titles. There's gonna be opportunities for everyone in different ways. And, also, because one day, they may wanna become director of housing, and you really can't be director of housing without having some kind of capital experience. Or how do we get a staff member to even rotationally supervise other staff? Because we can't make up staff members.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:20:27]:
I get it. But instead of them supervising an undergrad, can we say, hey. This year, you're the one that's gonna supervise the graduate students to get more of that experience? Those are the things. And then, also, what kind of benefits, childcare benefits can we give our staff? Tuition benefits. Not every school does tuition benefits. Partner benefits. You know? Kind of we gotta think creatively to get people noted that these are difficult and transformative jobs and that we need to invest in our people.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:55]:
Absolutely. I think one of the most radical things that I've seen happen as of late is, you know, the the state of Washington has their overtime laws that have gone into effect, which I'm very, very pro. And those laws, even for salaried employees, have limits on how many hours you can work per month, but it's requiring those institutions to redefine what a salaried employee is expected to do, and I think that's really good for the field.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:19]:
Yep. I agree. And, also, the other piece, it's on us too. How do we allow ourselves? How do how do I, vice chancellor, like, just tell people it's okay to not check email every day? Sometimes sometimes I I'll talk for myself. I do that. Right? I check it constantly. And one time, I got really sick, and and I did not check it at all because I just couldn't. I couldn't physically check it.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:42]:
It would not have been good for me to check it. And then it was fine. The job was fine. My students thrived. It was 2 or 3 days of just really barely, like, looking at my email and barely were really not working. And I realized, okay. Wait a second. It's gonna be okay.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:21:56]:
So it's also teaching ourselves. Give ourselves grace, and we're not gonna work we're not gonna make ourselves work and think work 20 4/7.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:03]:
And that really comes straight from the top. It has to start with your president empowering your vice chancellor, vice president to do that, and your vice chancellor, vice president really saying, hey. This is the culture we're gonna set for the organization.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:22:15]:
I love it. Unless there's an absolute emergency, my boss does not send this email. So, like, he came in to WashU, and he talked about how he doesn't expect he's not going himself going to do, like, email past a certain time. Like, I wasn't there when it happened, but people talk about that. And it really shifted something, like, past 5 or 6 or, you know, not on weekends. It's fantastic. And I thought it was really sharing a vulnerability for him to talk about the fact that he has a life, and he has a family, and that's important.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:40]:
And now the 3rd priority you mentioned was really anchoring into the value of higher education. And I think one of the most important things that NASPA does is advocacy in Washington, DC. So I'll give a shout out to the public policy division and also Diana Ali, who is the policy person with one of the policy people, anyway, within NASBA as well as Jill Dunlap. And they do some incredible work to track all sorts of state policies that are impacting higher education. We just saw a weird bill in Utah that is kind of mirroring what had been going on in Florida, which is also wild to me because I don't understand how it's not being challenged as a violation of the First Amendment in more intense ways right now, but that's a whole other conversation. But I'm wondering, Anna, how you envision NASPA telling the story of higher education or advocating for the value in your year as board chair.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:31]:
No. I think that's great. I you know, I think for me, there's several things that we need to do. The importance of the why of college, one of the reasons why I went to college was to help transform my family's future. Right? And, yes, it is about jobs and careers. One of the big reasons that I went to college. I think if I told my dad I was going to go to college, but not really sure what that would mean, he would have been like, wait. We're gonna pulling in all our money to have you go, see how you do so that the rest of your cousins and your brother could go.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:23:57]:
And you're not really sure why your our time and our talent and your time and your money is not gonna I'm like, it would have been unfathomable for my family and for my my background. So I think the why is one of them is the kinds of careers and opportunities for people because of their college degree. When you graduate from college versus when you don't, the wealth accumulation over time, the opportunities is greater. I mean, that is one of the things. But it's not about your major in terms of what your career is going to be. It is about the things that student affairs also does. Right? It's not just one thing. It's about the leadership training that we give them, the empathy that we teach them through experiential things, like being a club and organization president is one way.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:24:42]:
Communication skills that we teach them. Right? We engage them to think of differences, like what we have at WashU, dialogue across differences. And what does that mean? To dialogue with someone is something that we in student affairs engage and teach them to live with someone from a completely different background and then to be able to share. Sharing is caring. And then to think about your well-being, right, in different ways. The things that we teach in student affairs allows for an individual to go through college and learn those skills and to be an amazing leader outside in the world, to look at their careers in profound ways. Not just, I'm just gonna work and get my pay, but I'm gonna work. I'm gonna transform.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:25:24]:
I'm gonna be a leader. I'm gonna be engaged in community. And a lot of that is because of the 4 years or so that we have taught them in colleges, whether it's a 2 year college or a 4 year college or even, you know, doctoral programs. Right? So I think that we hold the key, and we don't talk about, we don't share those stories. I think student affairs, we are so humble, and we make sure that we lift up our students. But in doing so, I think we've forgotten to lift up the profession itself and explain what we do. We need to explain what we do. I don't think that we should celebrate the fact that our own parents don't know what we do.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:00]:
My parents don't know what I do. Right? Right? And we and we, yeah, and we laugh, and we celebrate it. Like, this is that career, and it's like, no. That's not good. People know what other people do. We should talk about what we do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:10]:
And I think I'd be one of the very first to say that the degree is important, but it doesn't define the future as much as some of the soft skills do. I think I've shared on the show before, but my bachelor's degree is in music performance, and it's not something that I anchor into daily for the skills that I need in my job.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:27]:
I should have you sing for us, though. Yeah. I'll be sending.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:31]:
Well, I'll share kind of a secret. If you look hard enough, you can find me singing on TikTok and YouTube. But you have to look really hard, and it's not under my real name.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:41]:
It's kinda funny. I mean, I don't really use those 2 apps as much, but okay. What is that?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:47]:
What was your bachelor's in honor?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:26:49]:
International visits, actually. And I and I'd use those skills that I learned today. I've always used it. I've learned so many things about balance sheets and what matters. And it's funny because when I say that, it's not necessarily that money matters. It's actually what matters in terms of the values that you put into time and treasure. And so that's what I learned. But so I utilize it a lot in my in my daily work, but I'm not in a business career.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:15]:
Does that if that makes sense?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:17]:
Are there any words of wisdom, wishes, or thoughts that you'd like to share with the NASPA membership in general?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:27:24]:
Someone I learned this as a faculty member from a participant at the last APIDA Leadership Institute. And I wanna say, I remember this person said, and I wish I would I could know who it is, but I wanna honor the person who who said this. She said someone told her once to fall in love with her staff, and I've been thinking about that a lot. And for me, for my words of wisdom would be fall in love with the field. Remember why you chose it because we chose this field, and fall in love with it. And if you're thinking that, you know, I'm having a really hard time right now. I fell in love with it once, but I'm thinking of a breakup or a break. That's okay.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:28:05]:
But then find support and help about that and think through, do you stay with it, which is fine. Do you leave it, which is also fine. But if you're gonna stay with it, learn, and relearn how to fall in love with it. Because for me, that's what helped me thrive every day. For some of us, falling in love with it means really loving our student. But for others, it really is the actual work, itself. And so whatever it is, remember it and fall in love with it again because that's ultimately what's gonna keep you engaged and thriving in this profession.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:37]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:43]:
Thanks so much, Joe. Glad to be back in the NASPA world. And this week, I wanna share a few policy updates that we've heard from our policy division at NASPA. Many of you may have heard that president Biden has issued another continuing resolution keeping the government funded through March. And so at this point, Congress has not reached a compromise to formalize a spending bill for the 2023 fiscal year. For the 2023 fiscal year, as funding expired at the end of September, the Department of Education held negotiated rulemaking sessions on federal Title IX program integrity, and institutional quality and trio eligibility in the month of January. During the subcommittee session on program funding funding involving funding connected to student meal plans and including books and supplies costs as a part of tuition and fees. Several members of the trio subcommittee expressed reservations about expanding eligibility for college prep trio programs to undocumented students due to tenuous political climate due to the tenuous political climate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:58]:
NASPA believes that extending trio programs to undocumented students is an important step in setting a federal precedent for equitable college access. The Office of Postsecondary Education is seeking comments from institutions on effective strategies for college student mental health and substance use and substance use disorders. This request includes how higher education institutions have transformed campus cultures with inclusive support strategies, how state agencies have supported behavioral health, identified challenges in implementing solutions, and information to guide future work of the Department of Education. Comments are due by February 25th. The Department of Education has also issued a request for information to assess sexual violence on campus. The RFI seeks responses on best practices for sexual assault prevention and response in education in educational institution in educational institutions. Topics include forming response teams, providing survivor resources, preventing and responding to sexual and dating violence, developing sex education and staff training programs, culturally responsive support approaches, engaging communities in prevention efforts and federal support of these initiatives. Comments are due by March 11th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]:
Finally, the Biden administration has highlighted key topical issues in relation to priorities for the 2024 presidential election year. Earlier this month marked the 51st the 51st anniversary of Roe v Wade in and the White House and the White House task force on reproductive health care access released a fact sheet on new actions to increase contraception care coverage. This includes a continued stance that the administration will support the FDA the FDA approval of medication abortion, which is currently which is under current scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back. Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:46]:
I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that, Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:19]:
Chris, we always appreciate you sharing what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Anna, we have reached our lightning round, so I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:30]:
I'm ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:30]:
Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:36]:
Beyonce's new song.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:37]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:40]:
A doctor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:41]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:43]:
Doris Ching.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:45]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:47]:
Oh my gosh. It is Elizabeth Witt's The Tapestry, the Culture book that I can't remember the actual title, but love, love, love that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:55]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:33:58]:
Oh my goodness. That is a good one. Is it awful to say Dexter?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:03]:
Everyone had their thing. That was a that was a time in our lives. Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:11]:
I think this one, actually. I did. I'm not a I have to say I'm not a podcast person, but I was like, I'm gonna listen to this one because this is my field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]:
We appreciate that. And then finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:24]:
Oh, just saying hi to personal is my family. Thank you so much for your support. I appreciate you. And then my professional, my chosen NASPA family, you are all amazing. I love you all, and I can't wait to see you at all the future events conferences, including my speech when I take the gavel at NASPA in Seattle.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:42]:
Anna, we know you're gonna have an incredibly busy year ahead, but if anyone in the membership would like to reach you personally, how can they find you?

Dr. Anna Gonzalez [00:34:49]:
Oh, sure. They can actually go into my social media, Instagram, AKGonzales 327, and also my email, anna.gonzales, with a z at the end, atwustl, w u s t l, dotedu.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:01]:
Anna, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today. Thank you. This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA .org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:34]:
We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support support

In this season of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast, we had the privilege of delving deep into the world of job placement and career development in higher education with D'Najah Thomas, a dynamic figure leading The Placement Exchange (TPE). Her insights reveal a holistic and innovative approach to connecting talent with opportunity in student affairs.

Transitions in Student Affairs: A Modern

Take It's no secret that the job market in higher education has undergone significant shifts, particularly with the advent of virtual platforms. Thomas brings a refreshing perspective to the conversation, emphasizing the need for psychological safety and well-being during the job search. As TPE adapts to an increasingly digital landscape, it prioritizes mental health by advocating for scheduled breaks and creating virtual lounges for decompression—a much-needed change welcomed by both candidates and employers.

The Crafting of TPE's Identity

Thomas's journey to the directorship at TPE wasn't a conventional one. With a background in marketing, public relations, and a stint in the non-profit sector, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs through a combination of chance, economic circumstances, and personal choices—highlighting that a nonlinear career path can lead to fulfilling leadership roles.

Her diverse professional experience, enhanced by her empathy and commitment to supporting others, is now channeled into redefining TPE as a central hub for career development. She envisions TPE as a platform that not only facilitates job matching but also serves as a resource for continuous professional growth.

Empowering Job Seekers and Recruiters

Thomas is keen on equipping job seekers with tools for self-advocacy and proactive searching. TPE's year-round job board and the on-demand TPE Academy sessions affirm her resolve to meet modern job seekers where they are. Similarly, she encourages employers to highlight their values and culture authentically, showing that recruiting in student affairs must evolve beyond mere job advertising to a more strategic and narrative-driven approach.

Looking Ahead: A Future of Innovation and Inclusivity

 With initiatives like TPE Talks addressing hot topics in employment and the WRAP Session focusing on diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, TPE is broadening its impact beyond job placement. Thomas reimagines a future where TPE continually adapts to uphold a vibrant, healthy, and diverse workforce in student affairs.

Thomas's work with TPE exemplifies strategic transformation driven by understanding and meeting the needs of its community. The focus on accessibility, storytelling, and mental health showcases TPE's commitment to harmonizing candidate and employer expectations within an evolving digital world.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Hey, essay voices. We've got a really awesome episode for you today all about the placement exchange or TPE for short. So I'm pleased to welcome D'Najah Pendergrass Thomas, sheher, who is a practitioner and whose work is centered around organizational behavior with a focus on recruitment, professional development, and career advancement. She's committed to helping organizations and communities bring about transformational change in these areas. And currently, she is serving as the director of the placement exchange, which is also a partnership of AUCHO-I and NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:53]:
In this world, Inesha works directly and closely with a planning committee of professionals from across the field of higher education and student affairs to drive equitable and inclusive practice and innovation to deliver transformative networking communities, knowledge resources, job search, and recruiting experiences that cultivate and sustain a diverse and robust workforce in higher education. Before coming to TPE, D'Najah worked for 9 years in residence life and housing. Prior to that, she served as a marketing and communications practitioner in the nonprofit sector with Goodwill Industries of Southern Piedmont, The Florida Bar, and The Florida Psychological Association. D'Najah is past president of North Carolina Housing Officers or NCHO, and she also served in other leadership roles with NCHO and the Southeastern Association of Housing Officers or SEHO. She was a 2018 participant in NASPA's Mid Managers Institute and served as faculty for SEHO's 2021 regional entry institute or RELI. D'Najah also finished her term with a Kujo AI's 2021, 22 Leadership Academy cohort. A native of Charlotte, North Carolina, D'Naisha holds a master's of divinity from Duke Divinity School, a master of science in sport management from Florida State University, and a bachelor of science in public relations from Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina. Whether you are a candidate looking for a job this year or thinking about looking for a job this year or an employer who has an entry to mid senior level job to post, this episode, I hope, will be a wonderful resource for you so you can learn a little bit more about how the placement exchange process has grown and changed over time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:27]:
Don't miss this one. Hope you enjoy our conversation. D'Najah, welcome to SA Voices.

D'Najah Thomas [00:02:33]:
Thank you for having me. I am excited to be here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:36]:
I'm really thrilled to help you have you on the season at this moment in time, especially in our theme of transitions in your role at TPE, I think that you personally hold a lot of keys to success for people in the profession. And especially given the changes that are happening in TPE right now, it's a great time to talk about all of the things. But before we talk about all of the TPE things, I'd love to get to know you a little bit better because you've had some interesting transitions in your career as well from housing professional and, I believe, training as an attorney to the TPE space now. So tell us about you.

D'Najah Thomas [00:03:10]:
I was an attorney. It's not quite that exciting, but I will tell you a little bit about what I've done before coming to TPE. My background is actually actually in marketing and public relations. So I did undergraduate work in North Carolina with great dreams of working for an NFL team. I thought that I would travel and do on-site communication and public relations. And so that led me to get a master's in sport management at Florida State University down in Tallahassee, Florida. And then that program was my 1st interaction with student athletes. And so while working on my degree, I worked with at risk student athletes in academic services.

D'Najah Thomas [00:03:45]:
And I had the luxury of graduating in 2008, which if anyone can remember, was the recession. And so I humbly took my brand new master's degree home to North Carolina and started searching for a job. And so I spent a good bit of time volunteering while looking for work simply because my mom, as an educator, was of the background. You get stuck in your own head when you're looking for a job and you can get discouraged. And she suggested that I volunteer. And so I volunteered like it was a full time job and landed in non profit work, particularly crisis support services in North Carolina. And to be transparent, if you live in the South, particularly North Carolina, it is, still called the Bible Belt. It's deeply steep in religion, particularly working in crisis support.

D'Najah Thomas [00:04:27]:
The questions were typically existential. How did this happen? Why could this happen to me? Oftentimes, how could a god be god allow this to happen to me? And in the course of serving people, I thought I will either get a master's in counseling or maybe a master's in divinity. And I chose the route of divinity school and so I landed at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And they mentioned this opportunity to be a graduate hall director while in the program. And so I thought anything that will help me save money on the cost of this degree is going to be a wonderful opportunity. And so I landed in residence life and housing as a grad hall director while working on my master's of divinity. And so during the 3 years that I spent at Duke, I realized that college students were amazing. They are complex.

D'Najah Thomas [00:05:09]:
They have great demand. They are extremely diverse, and they were very much and are very much looking for a relationship, mentorship, and support. And so as a grad student, I found they liked me a little better than the professional coordinator because grad students are where they wanna be. They're gonna graduate and they wanna get master's and doctoral degrees. And so, residents and RAs alike would just hang out in my apartment. I would host programming for them, all while working on this master's of divinity. And my 3rd year in divinity school, a full time position opened. And I was eligible because I had the previous master's and so I did what I honestly would not recommend to anyone.

D'Najah Thomas [00:05:44]:
I worked full time on that last year and stayed a full time student because I just didn't wanna pass up the opportunity to be able to get the position at Duke. And so that is how I landed full time in student affairs. I was a resident life coordinator at Duke University. And so stayed in Durham for about 5 years and moved on to Wake Forest as an assistant director, staying in residence life and housing. Had the joy working under doctor Kitty Ryu, who was a great leader and really believed in what we were trying to do in Residence Life and Housing. She's NASPA famous. She is NASPA famous and rightfully so. And so in my the 1st year and a half in my role, we actually did a full reorg in our department.

D'Najah Thomas [00:06:21]:
We did not have full time residence hall coordinators. And so in the spring of 2019, we fully reorgued, went to TBE in LA, and bought on 7 new full time live in staff members, which was pretty important because halfway through their 1st year the pandemic happened. And we recognized that had we not had full time staff living in, there's just no way we would have survived supporting students, in the ways that we needed to. And so the next part I shared transparently because I think it matters with how I work with PPE and how I approach talking about career trajectory with people. I got pregnant and had a pre work for baby in the middle of the pandemic. And so, residence life and housing was very demanding at that time and work and life just were not meshing. And so, I had to start to look for other opportunities and very regrettably didn't wanna have to leave residence life and housing, but knew, you know, you have to make some life choices. And so the position with CPE opened up and I thought, gosh, this will be a wonderful opportunity to help meet our field at a place that was a point of crisis.

D'Najah Thomas [00:07:18]:
Right? Trying to retain staff in the middle of the pandemic. Campuses were triaging vacancies everywhere. And it would give me the flexibility to think about what I needed to do to be a mom to a brand new baby. And so I applied, interviewed, and in about 6 weeks found myself in the role as Director of the Placement Exchange. And so I bring to the role a little bit of nonprofit work, a little bit of student athletics work, and a whole lot of housing and residents' life experience coupled with supervision, hiring, and retention.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:45]:
That's an incredible journey, and especially to an organization like TPE where you can keep a lot of the skills you learned in your on campus experience by also bringing your nonprofit based experience. And I'm realizing now where I accidentally referenced an attorneyship, and it's because you were working with The Florida Bar as well as Florida Psychological Association. And so with all of those experiences kind of creating a melange of things for you, what is life like now given that you're serving professionals instead of students?

D'Najah Thomas [00:08:15]:
Life is amazing. Part of my work with TPE has really helped me solidify what I work with candidates around, which is understanding your story, your values, and your overall professional goal. And so when I look back at my career, I think the thread that ties it all together is relationships and investing in the success of others. And so for a while, that was student athletes. Before that, that was in the sports arena, that transition to serving people in the nonprofit world, coming back to my students at Duke, and then becoming a supervisor, particularly being very invested in the career trajectory of those that I supervise. And so, now I find myself with TPE being able to concentrate and be less of a generalist, but to spend so much time thinking about how to support the goals and the career trajectory of both who are doing work that I love so much. And so now my days are are filled with understanding what's coming out of SHRM and coming out of corporate HR and following trends on our campus and in our field and thinking about how TPE can now, in essence, be a career hub for the profession. How can we say to practitioners that this is your career trajectory? PPE is where you can come to develop the skill, review this resource, engage in the support so that you can continue to be a knowledgeable and competent and competitive candidate? And on the other side of that coin is how can we say to employers recruiting, retention, and advancement of staff really is a free market.

D'Najah Thomas [00:09:42]:
Meaning, they've got a set of skills and a salary they're looking for, and you now have to showcase how you are a place that people want to work at, and that the package you have to to offer is competitive. And so, how do you look at your efforts around recruiting, and interviewing, and hiring, and onboarding, and retaining staff, such that when you sit down with a candidate, you can say, This isn't just any assistant director role. The assistant director role on this campus is going to provide you with these opportunities, support you in this way such that you don't wanna walk away from this opportunity. So that is how everything I do is centered. How do we really equip these practitioners? And then how do we empower employers to see themselves as great places to work and be able to really share that with candidates in the process?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:24]:
Now TPE is short for the placement exchange. I think it's its own living acronym. Now people just kinda know what it means if you've been in the field for a hot minute. But it's also a joint partnership of Akuhoai and NASPA and also serves as a hub for professionals who are not affiliated with either of those organizations as people search for student affairs in higher ed positions. What is the experience of a candidate today who's utilizing TPE?

D'Najah Thomas [00:10:52]:
Sure. I hope that the profession as a whole. It experience even though we are serving the profession as a whole. It has expanded. We now have a job board that is 20 fourseven, three sixty five. So I hope people aren't up in the middle of night. You feel the urge at midnight, you can go to the job board and look for that next job. If you do that on the weekends or whatever that looks like for your schedule, it's available.

D'Najah Thomas [00:11:22]:
And it's got the features that now allow you to upload your profile and resume at a level of comfort. So it can be fully visible by employers who are looking to hire. It can be one level down, which is what we call confidential, in that they can see the content of your resume, but not your identifying information. But if I were to message you as an employer and you choose to do so, you can then disclose who you are. Or it can be fully private, meaning it's there and as you see an employer that you may have interest in, you can share that resource with them. That's something that has been added on since what we've been known for. The once a year in person week of interviewing that happened the week before NASPA. So I appreciate now that we recognize, right, people are looking for a job 365 days a year.

D'Najah Thomas [00:12:02]:
We cannot make people wait until March to get their next job. So being able to offer the job board with some customizable options for candidates is something that we're really proud of. The other thing that I'm really proud of for candidates, and I hope they would say they are appreciating, is how we've taken the TPE Academy and really tried to make it more accessible for the year round experience. So it used to be being a part of the academy was from November to March, it was much more like a mentorship experience and culminated being in person. Now we create the sessions on demand and candidates can go to the YouTube channel and access any one of those 6 sessions. Right? So again, at a time that works for you, whether it's October, February, or April, you can have access to those resources in a way that your lifestyle and fits your schedule. So again, just thinking about the things that used to be centered around that once a year experience and expanding those to be accessible anytime a candidate would need that. We still keep our Candidate Development Subcommittee and so we still offer those year round webinars.

D'Najah Thomas [00:13:00]:
And what I appreciate about those sessions is they don't feel very stiff and structured. The content is there but our presenters and speakers are very engaging and the pace still allows for question and answer, learning opportunities, almost like a workshop. Like, we may pause you and have you do an activity, do some reflection, and engage. And so we are still trying to make sure that we serve on a larger scale to everyone who may need us, but not without having that personal experience and that interpersonal connection that we've been known for.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:30]:
So the addition of the psychological safety piece, I think, is incredibly important from a candidate experience, especially knowing that there's a lot of reasons that someone might not be able to share with their current employer that they're looking or maybe they just don't want to. That's also fine. I also really appreciate the expansion of the academy and this on demand element because it really is meeting candidates where they're at in the modern era of search. So for those who are listening who may be newer in the profession, my 1st job experience job hunting experience in student affairs was at TPE in the year that ACPA and NASPA were last combined for a joint conference. That thing was bananas. I think I did 45 to 60 interviews in 3 days. I had a pair of extra tennis shoes in my bag. I had physical thank you notes with me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:21]:
There were candidate physical Dropbox mailbox systems that were just organized but chaotic at the same time. And it was also a place where I feel like more of the candidates were like myself in their 1st or second job search, not necessarily in their mid or senior level spaces. And I believe that has shifted quite a lot in the last several years. So who's in the TPE now in terms of the level and type of position that candidates are looking at and employers are hiring for?

D'Najah Thomas [00:14:50]:
Sure. You know, you shared a memory that just stuck with me. I was not at that particular one, but I remember being in San Antonio. And the way the my my boots. It was huge. And you have the candidate's a through m, n through z, and there were just hundreds and hundreds of people and hundreds of tables. And when we decided to go virtual, what you just shared is what we really listen to from candidates. I had a lot of listening sessions and I listened to people say I had 30, 40 interviews and, I was so stressed that an interview would go terrible and I didn't have time to, like, gather myself.

D'Najah Thomas [00:15:31]:
And then it was a trickle down effect or I was at a table and I had a hard time focusing because the interview was right next to me or sitting in the waiting room and hearing people talk about their number of interviews and struggling with comparison. And I remember as an employer just reminding candidates, you don't need every job, you just need 1. And I remember pausing interviews and saying, I don't think you have the stamina to show up well, and we reschedule you. And so what I appreciate now about us being virtual is the ways in which we are advocating for protecting the schedule of both candidates and employers. So we do last the full week, but we offer block. Our schedule builds and breaks. It's virtual, so we can't regulate everyone. But we highly recommend that people take the lunch break, take the afternoon break, adhere to the block, pause and go to some of the round tables.

D'Najah Thomas [00:16:17]:
And right now that we are virtual, you can go into a space. When an interview ends, don't book back to back. Give yourself a chance to go into a space, decompress, review that, drop into the candidate lounge, talk with 1 of the subcommittee members to just kind of help you have a better mental health experience through the process. And we actually do that for employers as well because we have to remember that people are away from their responsibilities on campus while doing these interviews. And I remind employers that they are being interviewed as much as they are interviewing candidates. And so you get distracted, you get fatigued. Some of these things that we are embedding because we are virtual are to help you show up, your best version as an employer, to the candidates who are giving you their time and trying to tell their story to you. And so I really do appreciate that the virtual space is allowing us to prioritize mental health, psychological safety, and well-being of everyone who's currently involved, for sure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:12]:
The experience of the employer shifting as well, I think, is a very big deal because I think, especially as younger professionals, our instinct at the beginning is, you know, my job is to show up and show out, and the employer's job is to judge me. At least that's how I felt in my first TPE. And now it's I think we're trying to do more to push more of a balance that it is a mutual understanding of if this is gonna be the right job match. From the employer side, what else is new or changing for them?

D'Najah Thomas [00:17:41]:
Sure. From the employer side, a few things are new with the virtual experience. We really did listen to them 2 employers when they said, you know, it may be virtual, but we used to have reception. We wanna build that warm connection. If we can't physically touch or see other same spaces with candidates, how are they going to feel our full spirit, our vibe? We used to have swag. We used to fill mailboxes with all these things. And very lovingly, I said, there are ways that you do this now, but it has to actually be with the meat and the substance of who you are. And so you actually have to help candidates want to work for you because of the substance of what you offer, and you can do that.

D'Najah Thomas [00:18:20]:
So my coaching conversations with employers now are a lot about, tell me about your team, tell me about your campuses, tell me about the affinity spaces and support that is available to your staff. Talk to me about your professional development opportunities. Because this generation of candidates is very interested clear pathways to advancement? What is their supervision and leadership going to be like? And so I said employers, your booth, it's the sims. So that part is still fun. Your booth is fully branded. You can hyperlink it to videos. You can show a day in the life of. You can showcase your campus and your teams in ways virtually that you actually couldn't do in person.

D'Najah Thomas [00:18:58]:
You couldn't pick up your campus. Everybody just had the floor extensions with their brand on it. So now with your booth, you can use imagery, but you are linking to all of the resources and information that your campus has to offer in a very nicely branded way. But on top of that, your engagement with candidates is now about who you are, what you believe, what you value, and what the candidate experience will be. And so, in short, I'm finding that we are helping employers learn what it means to recruit, which is something other industries have been doing for some time, but I do think it's very new to student affairs. We knew that people were going to go to the graduate program. They were going to graduate, and they were going to need an entry point. And we just kind of knew that TBE would be that funnel.

D'Najah Thomas [00:19:41]:
But we know that the pipeline into the profession now looks different. And so virtual really does allow us to still serve that pipeline but also expand. Like your earlier question was, who all the CPE serve now? I am excited to say that we serve the full profession. We really do stop before you kind of get to the executive search firm level. That's not our wheelhouse. But up to director level positions, they are there in terms of employers posting those positions and candidates that are currently in the candidate pool. And I say that very excitedly because we are really carving out supporting those who want to do a nationwide search. There are lots of regional groups and associations that can do in person placement.

D'Najah Thomas [00:20:16]:
And I think that's wonderful. If you know you're gonna stay in the Northeast or the Southwest, and you can be at your conference and have that interview process, absolutely go for it. But if you know you're in California and you want to look at Illinois and Michigan and Virginia and Texas or a couple of different states and you don't want to break the bank as a candidate or if as an employer you want to cast the largest net as possible and you don't want to have to pick up and take a a team of 6 or 7 or 8 people, the virtual platform allows us to do that for everyone who wants to do it. Being virtual now lets us say that engaging in CPE is free for all candidates. That was a huge one. I just feel like it says something about an industry when you have to pay to get your job. We all want people to have to pay, let alone go into debt or use a credit card to get their next job. And so virtual allowed us to say, if you're looking for a job and you wanna meet some great employers, create a free candidate account, participate in the career fair, let our employers recruit you, and then in a few weeks, come back, have those interviews and hopefully find your next job.

D'Najah Thomas [00:21:23]:
Same way we say to employers, if you are a community college or a small college a limited budget, you are on the same footing as the flagship institution for whatever state you're in. It's the substance that you have that puts you in front of candidates and allows you to say to them, we have something that you want, and we would love to have you be a part of our team.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:42]:
I just wanna reiterate one thing that you said, which is that the placement exchange process as a candidate is free to you to use, which is such a critical point that wasn't always true. I believe I registered for a fee when I originally went through many years ago. It wasn't high if I recall, but, you know, it's still a fee. So I really appreciate that that is a major positive change for candidates. So if you're looking for a position this year, please register with TPE. It's totally free for you. Now if I'm an employer, let's talk about how much it might cost my institution.

D'Najah Thomas [00:22:16]:
Again, I can say it's probably going to cost you less than you ever remember. Like, full transparency, when I went to LA in 2019, we were in the 1,000 of dollars to have our booth, take our staff, to pack up all the slack, to stay in the hotel. Employer booths are only $475, And that is to keep it comparable with the actual technology that we use for the platform. And so in that employer booth, you can have up to six recruiter seats and each recruiter can run their own schedule. So if anybody remembers CPE in person, it was a table and you often ran 2 interviewers per table. And some employers ran 2 tables. You can do that with 6 recruiters and 1 booth. So you can have up to 6 interviews if they're individuals or 3 interviews if you run them in pairs for 475.

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:04]:
We are not in the business of trying to to bankrupt anyone. We actually want to make it as accessible as possible for our job seekers and our employers because that is how the field wins. When we can bring the largest pool of talent together and the largest pool of hiring employers together, I believe that both sides will be presented with option and possibility and increase the likelihood that we make really strong career matches across the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:30]:
I love that. That's amazing.

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:31]:
It makes me smile. So I'm glad it makes you smile.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:34]:
Absolutely. So as we look forward then, there's already been, I believe, at least 1, if not 2, virtual events that have happened this year. There's another couple major ones coming back up, including one that will be concurrent with the NASPA annual conference. So this episode should be airing right before the conference begins. If I haven't registered for TPE yet, but I want to, what do I do now?

D'Najah Thomas [00:23:58]:
All you have to do is go to our website, which has not changed. We're never gonna change that web address. It is www.theplacementexchange.org. You will see virtual placement highlighted on our web page. Click that live green button, register, and join us. Registration takes about 30 minutes. Setting up your booth only takes 30 minutes. I did it just to be sure I was being truthful when I tell an employer anyone can do it, anyone can do it, and then you have full access to to our registered candidates and the ability to participate in placement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:30]:
You mentioned value congruence as probably one of the number one things that this generation of job seekers needs in their employer. How are you seeing employers demonstrate their values in a way that is really digestible for candidates?

D'Najah Thomas [00:24:43]:
I think, again, it starts with us introducing career fairs. We really wanted there to be something between I see a job on a site, I do my own kind of investigative research, and I hope they interview. I believe in the power of storytelling and human interaction. And so us since starting the career fair before placement has really been a great place for employers to do that. So there's what I see on your booth in terms of your printed materials about your your campus. I am now clicking to have a conversation with a recruiter and we are really working on helping candidates understand the questions to ask and the follow-up questions to ask. Ask. And so it is developing those conversational skills to engage in active recruiting.

D'Najah Thomas [00:25:23]:
And so I may say, you know, I read these are the values of your institution. An employer may say, yes. We value creativity, exploration, leadership, and service. Now in our in our recruiting chat, I can say, well, tell me a little more about how the value of service is played out on your campus. Often times employers are gonna talk about the student experience. And I say, as a candidate, when you listen, tell me what it is you're really wanting to hear and how do you have the question to get to that answer. So we kind of walk through scenarios and then the oh, they talked about the student experience. Well, they that sounded wonderful for students.

D'Najah Thomas [00:25:56]:
Can you tell me a little bit more about how this value, is experienced or plays out for your staff?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:02]:
Mhmm. Mhmm.

D'Najah Thomas [00:26:03]:
So it's just keeping the art of engagement. And we do the same with employers because this is new to engage in recruiting as well. So we talk about when you when you choose recruiters, you want to choose people who, a, understand the values, the mission, the vision of your university, who can talk about their own experience with them to showcase that congruence. And I recommend you collect stories of your colleagues, of your team, of your peers that can validate that or affirm that. I also talk to my employers about transparency to say these things are so aspirational and here's where we are in working towards this. I think this is a wonderful generation of candidates that appreciate the honesty and the transparency. So even if you tell me you're not there yet, if you can tell me how you're working towards it, I'm gonna appreciate that you didn't tell me a lie.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:50]:
Yeah. For sure.

D'Najah Thomas [00:26:50]:
That you have that awareness, and I have an understanding of how you're still trying to get there. And so it's not a ding to you as an employer if you haven't hit everything inspirationally. It's your ability in preparation to talk about how you're working towards it and what you have in place to bridge that gap if you're not there yet.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:08]:
Let's talk a little bit about the numbers. How many candidates and employers and jobs are in the TPE portal at any one given time and particularly during high season of hiring?

D'Najah Thomas [00:27:19]:
Sure. At any given time, we average between two 50 and 375 for jobs monthly. And so I give the average because we have new jobs posted. We offer 30, 60, 90 day postings. So we're in that 2 to 300 range on average per month. We currently have about 380 candidate resumes on the job board. That's the year round component. And we have about 600 employers who are in our system.

D'Najah Thomas [00:27:45]:
They may not be currently posting at the time, but they have posted in the past calendar year. Those numbers are continuing to grow as we continue to, a, inform people that we have a job work because a lot of people still just know us at the event. So as we continue to tell that story, those numbers increase. I am excited with placement that we are seeing numbers to start to increase to what they used to be. I told you the background in PR and marketing comes in hand. It helps me develop patients. Our field loves the things that have been a part of our journey, And we know that change is a process. And so replacement, our candidate numbers are are very quickly getting to what we are familiar with, closer to 300, 400 candidates.

D'Najah Thomas [00:28:22]:
Our employers are slow to adopt. And so our hope is as we continue to grow and employers continue to have that positive experience, a, that their testimonial, their validation, and their word-of-mouth will help. We are also marketing though, making sure employers know our candidates are getting it. We're getting up to 300 plus candidates almost to 4. And so right now, we actually are almost a 100 registered employers, which means there's almost a 100 positions. So it's a position per employer that they're being hired for. And they are from early career to senior, mid level, or senior level positions. And so I am just telling employers, you are looking for the candidate.

D'Najah Thomas [00:28:56]:
I can tell you where they are. They are leaning into technology. They are leaning into equitable access. They are leaning into spaces that fit better with their time and their schedule to look for a job. And so we are pacing it year by year to help employers see that we've heard what they were looking for from the in person experience, and we can't copy and paste, but we can find ways that technology allows us to reach that goal.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:17]:
I always say that transition and change always takes at least 3 years in higher education. 1 year to formulate and push the change out, the 2nd year to work out the issues or the kinks with it, and the 3rd year to let it fly and see if it actually works. It's because our profession is so cyclical. The hiring quote unquote season in higher ed really only happens once a year en masse, but it is it is all year round. But you're not gonna see if the impact is is what you're hoping for for a while, and that's just true for anything in higher ed, I think. So I'm hoping that our show and featuring TPE can help others discover you again.

D'Najah Thomas [00:29:53]:
Well, I appreciate that very much. This role as a former practitioner on the campus has helped me lean into we talk about redefining success. We easily say it, and then you have experiences that require you to live that amount. Up. Rebranding and restructuring CVE has really challenged me, and I've embraced what it means to redefine success. And so right now, redefining success is not the highest registration numbers. It is listening to those who were leaning into this process, say that it worked and they experienced an improved week going through the process in this way, hearing people say, oh, this felt very innovative, or this was engaging, or this was fun. Words that we used to hear from the in person experience to now hear them in the virtual experience lets me know that we're headed in the right direction.

D'Najah Thomas [00:30:34]:
So I'm very much leaning into the feedback from our participants to make sure that we are hitting the mark with what equals a quality experience for them. And I believe that as more people have the quality experience, the numbers will do what they need to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:47]:
Well, I think the number one thing that virtual space creates is accessibility. Right? And that's accessibility in a lot of different ways. But when I was, working as an AVPDOS at a large public university, you know, it made the TBE process possible for us because we couldn't afford to send 7, 8, 9 recruiters to the experience. But we could say, okay. Let's pay 1 fee, and we can post our hall director positions. We can post some assistant director positions, and we can try to find our people, this way. So I think that's that's all good stuff. What other transitions and developments have come about for TPE that you want our listeners to know about?

D'Najah Thomas [00:31:25]:
Sure. I think the the next big piece is what's happening in terms of programming and in the social media space. So we are about placement. We absolutely want people to connect employer to employee and find those jobs and make those hires. But again, as we think about being a career resource, it also means creating space to talk about and address the factors that impact our ability to retain staff and advance staff in the field. And there are some very role factors that we have to think about broadly if we're going to get the talent and keep the talent. And so, a big thing that I'm proud of is called TBE Talks. It's from our 2 planning committee chairs.

D'Najah Thomas [00:32:00]:
Every last Friday of the month, they get on the TPE Instagram live account and they talk about hot topics. So anything that is making someone think about, I don't wanna do this job anymore or what's driving my search for the next job, they talk about it. And I don't hang out in that space because I really wanted to be a free space for peer to peer conversation and engagement, and those conversations have been wonderful. The 2nd piece that will launch in March that I am extremely excited about is the one that I get to host. They're called TPE WRAP Session. And the sole subject of those conversations is around diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility, and how that is impacting our ability to recruit, retain, and advance practitioners. And so each month, I'll have a guest join me to have that conversation. And so it varies.

D'Najah Thomas [00:32:46]:
My first guest is going to be someone who was the director of HR and DEI for a West Coast campus. And so for people to be able to hear how campuses are doing this work, get some ideas, ask them questions, and then I'll talk to some practitioners about their journey and their experience in the field. But I really want us to create spaces to just talk about the importance of accessibility, the importance of DEI, and how that's impacting the talent in our field, whether they're staying or going, moving up, or whatever that looks like. I think there's no harm in having a space to really have that niche conversation. So those are 2 big things coming up that I'm really excited about is offering to the field.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:25]:
And repeat for us how people can listen into those dialogues?

D'Najah Thomas [00:33:29]:
Sure. If you want to listen in to TPE Talks, you can go to the TPE Instagram account on Fridays at 2 pm and join them live. If you want to join us for the wrap sessions, they happen the last Thursday of each month. And again, our website is magic. You go to our website and go to events. You'll find the link to join those when we are live on those last Thursdays of the month.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:53]:
Any final thoughts on TPE's evolution from you,

D'Najah Thomas [00:34:02]:
3rd year in the role, and this is the 3rd iteration of TPE in a virtual space is what you really alluded to. Right? We were really trying to fine tune what it means. And although it's a 3rd iteration, what I would say to the field is it's just an indicator that we're listening and that we are committed to refining it until we create what it is the field needs. And so I am excited for TPE to continue to evolve, to be a career hub for our field because I think that is the way forward for making sure that we can sustain our workforce. And not just have those bodies in seats, but make sure that our workforce is fulfilled and healthy and vibrant and able to have the creativity and the flexibility to do the work that they need to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:50]:
Thanks so much, Jill. Glad to be back in the NASPA world, and there's a lot going on in NASPA as we prepare for the 2024 annual conference. One of the things that I wanted to talk about because we're talking about the placement exchange today is that there are opportunities within the placement exchange for your organizations to be able to find those employees that you need. Many of you may either be looking for jobs or may be looking for individuals to fill positions. And TPE, or the Placement Exchange, is the largest career placement resource in student affairs for over the last 15 years. TPE is committed to helping employers and job seekers in our industry find each other and build our community one great job at a time. The methods and practices for job searching and hiring continue to evolve, and TPE is also working, as we've been hearing about, diligently to deliver the best in technology and innovation as well as accessibility, affordability, and dependability when it comes to recruiting and retaining talented professionals in student affairs. I know you've been hearing about it a lot today, but I'm going to plug it again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:03]:
To go to the placementexchange.org to find out more information. Another great opportunity for you to explore is a new partnership that is called the Program Review Collaborative. This was developed in collaboration with organizations such as the Association of Colleges and University Housing Officers International, the Association of College Unions International, NASPA, and the National Intramural Recreational Sports Association. The PRC is a new joint venture aimed at enriching departmental reviews through the guidance of seasoned experts. These associations bring together a wealth of knowledge, resources, and a unified commitment to advancing the work of campus of campus professionals and institutions alike. PRC reviews focus on appraising the strengths and opportunities of a department with particular emphasis on staffing, administrative processes, programmatic offerings, student engagement mechanisms, and collaborative ventures within the broader campus community. Find out more at program reviewcollaborative.org. Finally, thank you to everyone who voted in the annual NASPA leadership elections, which closed on February 8th.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:19]:
We are thrilled to announce the following results with each position following the NASPA board of directors for the terms noted. The board chair elect is Michael Christakis, vice president for student affairs at the University of Albany, the region 2 director, Chaunte Hill, vice president for student life athletics and campus services at St. Joseph's University, region four east director, Juan Guardia, assistant vice president for student affairs and dean of students at the University of Cincinnati, and region 5 director, Carnell McDonald Black, vice president for student life at Reed College. Congratulations to all of these new leaders that are going to be leading NASPA into the future. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you wanna give back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:40]:
Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association, and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:27]:
Chris, as always, you just do such a wonderful job with keeping us updated on what's going on in and around NASPA. Thank you for all you do with our NASPA World segment. Denasia, we've reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. Ready to start the clock?

D'Najah Thomas [00:39:43]:
I'm ready.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:44]:
Alright. Number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

D'Najah Thomas [00:39:49]:
It would be Beyonce's I Been On. It's such a fierce song, and it reminds me to know that my track record is pretty good, and I don't need to be nervous about what I'm about to do.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:00]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what would did you want to be when you grew up?

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:04]:
I wanted to be a bank teller because they always handed out lollipops when I went with my parents to the bank.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:10]:
Number 3. Who's your most influential professional mentor?

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:13]:
My most influential professional mentor would be doctor Stephanie Carter Atkins. He is the embodiment of servant leadership, and she taught me extreme patience as a supervisor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:24]:
Number 4. Your essential student affairs or career read.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:27]:
Oh, my essential read would be Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. It leads me into some vulnerability that I had to really work through to offer to my staff, but was transformational.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:38]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:41]:
During the pandemic, there wasn't a lot of TV because there was a kid in the house. But I would say that My Guilty Pleasure was The Real House 5 series. You could pick 1. They were always on A&E. So yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:53]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

D'Najah Thomas [00:40:57]:
Harvard Business Review.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:58]:
And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:03]:
I would love to give a shout out to my partner who is also in higher ed and helps me find a way to navigate both of us reaching the goals that we have. I definitely wanna give a shout out to black women who are doing this work. They are my sisterhood. They are my network, and they are my support. And I am always here for empowering them. And then lastly, I have to give a shout out to my TPE planning committee, both current and past. TPE, when I say we, it's just me. And so without my planning committee, I would not be able to do what I get done.

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:32]:
They continue to be a dream team, and I love them dearly.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:35]:
Denasia, it has been a pleasure to have you on SA Voices and get to know more about how TPE has been changing and evolving to meet the needs of the modern candidate and the modern employer as well. If folks would like to reach you or TPE, how can they find you?

D'Najah Thomas [00:41:50]:
Sure. If they would like to reach me or TPE, they can come to the TPE website. Again, it's www .theplacementexchange.org. You can click about us and get in touch with myself or our general email account. You can also follow TPE on Instagram, Facebook, or LinkedIn. If you put in the placement exchange on all 3, we will pop up. There's no competitors. You'll definitely land at us, and I do my best to get back to people as quickly as I can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:17]:
Thank you so much for sharing your voice and the new story of TPE with us today.

D'Najah Thomas [00:42:22]:
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a wonderful conversation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:28]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at essay voices at NASPA dot org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:43:09]:
This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Embracing change and adaptability has been a focal point in the latest episode of 'Student Affairs Voices From the Field.' Host Dr. Jill Creighton sits down with Dr. Denny Roberts, who has beautifully woven his international experiences into the fabric of student affairs. In this blog, I delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how Dr. Roberts' insights can inspire and guide student affairs professionals in their practice.

Understanding Diversity Beyond Borders

One compelling topic from the episode was the discussion around diversity in Qatar versus the U.S. Dr. Roberts and Dr. Creighton highlight that when working internationally, one must redefine what diversity, equity, and inclusion mean within the context of their environment. Dr. Roberts emphasizes the importance of cultural understanding in fostering engagement in highly diverse student populations. This urges professionals to prioritize intentional efforts and practice humility to make substantial connections across varied cultural landscapes.

Fostering Multicultural Engagement

The challenges that Dr. Roberts faced in Qatar's Education City showcase the complexity of creating universal student experiences without imposing one's cultural norms and expectations. He underscores the necessity of professional development and immersion to truly engage with the local culture. The emphasis is on the importance of educators obtaining a deep understanding of the cultures they serve, which is crucial in respecting the choices and experiences of international students.

Transitions, Writing, and Contributions

Dr. Roberts' journey through various career and geographic transitions sheds light on his decision to step into consultancy. This choice was driven by a desire to maintain personal freedom and a passion for writing—something he has continued with zeal post-retirement. His contributions in philosophy, history, leadership, and internationalization highlight the valuable interplay between practice experience and scholarly activity in student affairs.

Multipotentiality and Identity

An intriguing element of Dr. Roberts' narrative is the idea of being a 'multipotentialite.' He describes the traits—idea synthesis, rapid learning, and adaptability—which mirror his approach to student affairs and consultancy. This concept adds another dimension to understanding professional identities within the field and encourages embracing one's diverse skill set.

Reverse Culture Shock and Moving Forward

Dr. Roberts' return to America after living abroad opened a discussion on reverse culture shock. His advice for professionals seeking international experience is thoughtful and grounded in choosing deep, reflective opportunities over perfunctory resume enhancements. His message: be transformed by your experiences and seek an environment that respects and enhances your growth.

Conclusion

Dr. Denny Roberts' experiences and insights provide a compelling narrative for those in student affairs. They encourage educators to be adaptable, culturally sensitive, and intentional—a lesson in how one's experiences can shape not just personal growth, but also professional practice in diverse environments. Ultimately, his journey teaches us that transitions can be an avenue for development, inspiring new approaches to leadership and inclusion in the field of student affairs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. 

Dennis C. Roberts is an independent consultant, speaker, and author. He last served as Assistant Vice President of Education for Qatar Foundation. During his seven years with QF he worked with Qatari and expatriate colleagues to create the student development and support services for its branch universities at Education City in Doha, Qatar. Prior to working abroad, he was Associate Vice President of Student Affairs at Miami University. He is past president of ACPA-College Student Educators international, and has been a member and presenter at the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the International Leadership Association
throughout his career. He has authored 6 books and over 50 book chapters and other articles on student affairs, student learning, leadership, and internationalization. Denny, welcome to SA Voices.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:00:25]:
Delighted to be with you today, Jill. This is awesome.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:27]:
It is such a thrill to be able to speak to you in our theme of transitions this season. You have had quite a few career transitions, both in your identity as a professional, but also in your physical location. And in our preshow chat, I also got to know you and I share a lot of transitions in common, so I'm excited to dig into those. But I always like to get started with a question of how you got to your current seat, and your current seat is consultancy, which I know a lot of student affairs professionals kind of weave in and out of or move through after a VPSA position.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:01:01]:
It is kind of an interesting transition because I had done Consulting before, you know, when I was full time employed and that kind of thing. And when I decided that it was time to return to the US from Being located in Qatar, I kinda struggled. Do I wanna continue to work full time and therefore take another job at the US or do I want to do something else? And a variety of circumstances, both personal and professional, caused me to think, you know, I really am kinda tired of going to the office every day and having somebody else tell me to do is. So I thought, maybe I can make this consulting thing work. And I also had just a gob of Ideas in my head. And I've written, you know, quite a bit during my career, but there was just this whole backlog of ideas That came to me from working abroad, and I thought, you know, if I'm tied to go to the office every day, I'm not gonna get these things Done. And what's really been fabulous is my writing has actually accelerated in retirement. I don't know if that will continue or not, but it's been terrific.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:02:04]:
And I've had so much fun writing with younger colleagues who have fresh eyes, with international colleagues To have a totally different perspective. And the character of my writing has really, I think, Changed in this post kind of and I like to call it semi retirement because I can't give up. Right? So I really have not adopted an identity of being retired. I'm still very actively involved, so it was a real decision, personal and professional, that I just wanted more freedom. And fortunately enough, I was very blessed with having had a career that gave me enough economic needs to say that I didn't need that monthly salary. And that's a tough decision To make 2 in terms of how much is enough. Anybody that is facing the potential of retirement, you have to kind of gauge, like, what what's What's the lifestyle I wanna have? And I decided that what we had was very much something that would allow us stability, allow us time to do what we want. My wife was retired at that point already as well, and we decided to move to Chicago to be close to our grandkids.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:08]:
So, that was all a part of the scenario about How I got to the, current semi retirement status that I'm in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:16]:
You've been quite a prolific author and student affairs is with over 60 journal articles and peer reviewed journals. I believe you've either edited or, coedited. Is it 6 books as well?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:27]:
That's correct. Yeah.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:28]:
So with all of that, how has your voice as an author evolved from your very first publication through when you kind of felt like you were churning a burden and now?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:03:37]:
When I first Started writing, and I was extremely fortunate to have matured in 2 settings that were very, very influential for me. One was Colorado State University, and the other was University of Maryland. Both of them and I was a 1st generation college student, so I was kind of clueless about what the academic world really was all about But I had some really good coaches in the early days who urged me. They said, If you wanna be in student affairs, you need to also contribute Intellectually, you can't just be a practitioner. So I had role models at both institutions that urged me to start writing. And the early pieces that I did, I mean, one was I got involved in the whole issue about the age change for alcohol On college campuses, and so 18 to 21? Correct. Yeah. And I stood in opposition to that, Which was kind of an unusual position to take at the time.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:04:34]:
And so that was kind of an opportunist publication, but not one that is deep in my heart. So After that, I started working more to just write about things that I really cared about, and that I felt like I had really learned something, And then I had something to offer, which is really very different than what a faculty member experiences. And even though I've Taught both at the graduate and undergraduate levels. I was never driven by tenure and promotion to write certain sorts of things That get into the literature in a specific sort of way. So I were really informed by my practice Experiences throughout my life. So, you know, if I was struggling with a particular issue at a certain time, then I tended to use writing as kind of almost my public Journal, this is what I'm thinking. And I don't know frankly, when you write, you never know who's gonna Be touched by an article that you write, and it's kind of a mystery to me in terms of who does read things that I write. But I Have had feedback from some of my articles or chapters that my narrative style speaking from personal experience, That reflection has been helpful for other people, and I think that is a different kind of writing than sometimes you would see in a typical kind of Tenure track publication driven, you know, kind of an environment.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:05:54]:
So my publications for the early start was kinda just but then it became much more purposeful and more deeply reflective as I've gone on. And the areas I've published in that I'm most proud of are kind of student affairs, Philosophy and history, leadership, and then internationalization. Those are the 3 areas that I've most enjoyed, and I hope that the contribution I've made there has Made some difference to shed some light on those topics.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:20]:
Am I hearing you as maybe an early adopter of autoethnography as a research style?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:25]:
Probably. And I wasn't even aware That as a style. I had no idea that that's what I was doing, but yeah, that really is kind of where I'm coming from.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:33]:
I think my qualitative professor might be mad that I just called it a would want me instead to call it a methodology.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:40]:
Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:41]:
Well, Denny, you also have had a prolific as a campus based professional and then transitioned off of a campus. So why don't we talk about that? You were at University of Miami. Is that Miami, Florida or Miami of Ohio?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:54]:
No. It's Miami University of Ohio.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:56]:
I apologize to the state of Ohio.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:06:58]:
You have to flip The words there. So yeah. But Miami University in Ohio is where I was.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:02]:
And you had, what I understand to be a fairly traditional rise in student affairs going from junior roles to mid roles and finally to that VPSA role. What was the state of the field when you determined it was time to go overseas?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:07:14]:
Well, the idea of going overseas Cheese was really kind of planted through a previous experience at Miami, and the Miami, and you'll be very interested in this as a person interested To the study abroad, they have a bubble program in Difertaj, Luxembourg. And I heard about their invitation for visiting scholars, which were typically Play usually faculty that would do those roles. Well, I applied for it even though I was an administrator and I got it. And so I got to spend a semester in Luxembourg, and then during that time I taught and mentored students, and then I also wrote Actually, one of my books, which is deeper learning and leadership, which came out in 2007. So I worked very, very hard every week, And I had a Eurail pass, and so if I met my writing objectives, then on Friday morning, I hit Eurail. And I would go someplace. Well, guess how many writing deadlines I missed?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:10]:
All of them? None of them.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:13]:
0. I missed none of them. So every weekend I went someplace you know so I'd go to paris I'd go to berlin I'd go to fiena I would We'd go all over Europe on my Eurail pass because it didn't cost me a thing. And every place I would go, I would land, and I'd find a cheap place to stay, and I would start walking the city. You know, that's what I would do every weekend. And so that just exploded my idea about what it's like To be in other cultures and to learn from other places and to be respectful and attentive to the differences from myself as an American versus all the other worlds. And that happened in 2005. And then I just kind of ruminated for a while about, well, what was that all about? And Finished the book, got it published, all that kind of thing.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:08:59]:
And then Qatar came to me just out of the blue, and I had not applied, but they came to me and invited me to apply For what was a newly created possession, which was the role was to coordinate student services and development activities across the 8 branch Universities that they had then attracted to, the Education City campus in Doha, Qatar. And simultaneous to this, which is just A very, very strange, fortuitous sort of thing is that my daughter, Darby, was graduating from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, And they invited her to go to their Carnegie Mellon branch program in Qatar. So Darby accepted the position first. They came to me subsequently. My immediate reaction when I was invited was I asked Darby. I said, Darby, this is crazy. I mean, your father's gonna follow you halfway around the world in your 1st job. I mean, Can you deal with this? Would this be okay? And she said, oh, of course, dad.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:10:00]:
No problem at all. So I applied and they hired me and then I went over and that was in the fall of two And I went over for what was supposed to have been a 3 year contract, which was then successively extended to 6, And then extended to 7. And then finally, after 7th year, I said, I really need to go back, and I need to be with my family. Unfortunately, my My wife was not able to go over and live with me over there even though she came over on a quarterly basis, and we talked every day. But that's one of the challenges of expat work Yes. That always get to take your family with you, and that's not always convenient. And so you have to kinda figure out how that's gonna work. So that was a huge transition Culturally, professionally, personally, I mean that was the real kind of just crazy paradigm change for me when I went to Qatar.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:52]:
So I grew up in the Middle East a little bit. I had my earliest years in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and it's a very different cultural space. I also have spent some time in the UAE and then have good colleagues in the Levant region, as well as, you know, just kind of all around the GCC or the Gulf Coast region. On the show last season, we had a good colleague from Kuwait and then also in the season prior, colleagues from Qatar as well and from Kuwait. And we hear that the the needs of students are just extremely different. For those who are not familiar with Education City. As Denny mentioned, there are more than 8 now branch campuses in Education City in Qatar. I believe it's more than 8 now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:32]:
And they have attracted or kind of what I would call joint venture opportunities, really, where students from the local region are coming in earning degrees with university names that a US audience are probably a little more familiar with. But it's not as if you can just transplant all of these Americanized ideals into this environment where the value system is extremely different. So how did you adapt what you knew and what you had been practicing and researching to this environment that you didn't know at all.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:02]:
The Qatar Education City campus, it does have just 8 universities. And, well, 6 are American universities, one is European, And then there's their homegrown graduate school, which is called Hamid bin Khalifa University. So it's the 8 institutions and they They are not joint degrees. They are in the local environment. What's fascinating about what they've been able to do in Qatar is that the degree requirements Are exactly the same as the home campus. So if you get a degree from Carnegie Mellon in computer science, The curriculum is identical. And if it's Texas A&M engineering curriculum, identical. So and actually, the degree is granted from the home Campus rather than it being there as a local in Qatar, you know, kind of a degree.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]:
So it looks exactly the same when you're done.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:12:50]:
Exactly. And so, You know, part of what the goal was was to replicate the student learning experience between the US Or European, and then the Qatar example. What's interesting about that is that student affairs is very much a part of Most institutional cultures in the US. And for the most part, the colleagues that I worked with in Qatar, particularly those that were Country or were GCC Air World colleagues, they had no idea of what student affairs was about. Even for those that studied in the US, there's a tendency, at least among the colleagues with whom I interacted, there's a tendency for them to Not engage in the same sorts of ways when they're in the US. So I had lots of colleagues that went to US institutions That didn't even know there was such a thing as a student affairs division, and what value did that bring, and that kind of thing. So a major major part of what I Did there was to raise awareness of what student affairs was as a historical and philosophical and research based Commitment.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:13:56]:
And that I have to say, worked in some examples, and I'm thrilled that it stuck. In other examples, that never really did take, and I think that that's really something that international student affairs educators have to face. Some of it's gonna stick, Some of it isn't, and some of that is because of the differences in culture. And I'm sure you know from your Riyadh experience and UAE experience, I mean, the background that a student brings to the learning environment very clearly impacts the way that they're going to engage, and that relates to Everything from deference to authority, to gender roles, to freedom of thought and expression. I mean, there's just all sorts of things. And what's really interesting is to try to contextualize the values that student affairs can bring to another culture, But not do it in a way that judges other people's way of being. I learned so much from some of the students, for instance, that came from Pakistan, or from India, or from North African countries, where the environment of their expressing their views And actively engaging would have been politically dangerous. And as educators, even though I value democratic Education and full engagement, I had to understand that I was potentially educating a student with a tool that could be dangerous for them In terms of personal or professional welfare.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:15:30]:
It's a really interesting tension, and that doesn't mean abandon the values and the purpose that we have as student affairs educators, but it does mean you need to understand the cultural differences, and you need to respect the choices that students have to make that might be different than what you would find in a US kind of a setting. Did you find that in your in your work in the UAE and Saudi Arabia?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:55]:
Well, I was only in the UAE for a hot second, and, it was really as a visitor when I was working for NYU in the past. But I think my most relatable experiences as a CSAO in in China for a couple of years, and that institution had students from 70 countries.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:11]:
Yeah. Well, we had a 100 in in In Qatar.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:14]:
So when you have that level of diversity, it's just very different than what diversity is conceptualized as in the United States.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:22]:
Correct.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:22]:
And then even in my mind, what what the priorities are and diversification are different. And the way that we talk about inclusion and access in the US is actually quite ethnocentric to the US, and I don't think that we acknowledge that all the time.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:16:36]:
Amen. Amen. I mean, no, I mean, that's a really distinction, and I think that the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion is very important to in the US, and translating that in an international All setting is very appropriate. However, the way that you define it and what you understand to be diversity needs To be conceptualized in a different sort of way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:58]:
Well, absolutely. And the campus I was on had about 60% students from China mainland and then 40% students from the rest of the world. And and so when we look at that, it was also all of a sudden your majority identity is not students who come from privileged backgrounds from a majority ethnic white background. It's Han Chinese all of a sudden, and so then the world shifts in terms of what you understand. And so that was just quite a part quite an interesting part of my experience and a huge transition for me in the way I conceptualize things. I'm wondering for you then, Denny, if You could talk about what's the number one thing you found in terms of a universal experience amongst students in a setting that diverse.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:17:39]:
Well, Certainly, their interaction with each other was very, very powerful, and this was actually one of the things that I advocated Very, very strongly. Some of the branch programs tended to want to kinda develop their own identity of their own students kinda within the bubble. So The Northwestern students would hang together. The Georgetown students would hang together, etcetera. And that kinda happened naturally because each of them had a separate building. But while I was there, We built a student center that was a shared space, and so the shared space was supposed to bring everybody together and It was just overwhelming. Students just loved it. You know, we had the bowling alley and the sports complex, and we had the Convenience shopping, and we had meeting rooms, we had a theater, we had an art gallery.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:18:29]:
I mean, we had all of that that then Brought people together. And we eventually built residence halls as well. And the residence halls again, you know, it was not clustered by your academic experience, but it was mixed up In terms of both your academic experience and your cultural experience. So it was very very clear that our Students there and you would hear different languages, different styles of dress, all of that all the time. And I assume that you've observed the same sort of thing. So diversity of thought and culture and background is ubiquitous. That is the experience. And what's interesting about it Is though and we actually conducted the national survey of student engagement of the students over there to see what the real impact Was and while the opportunity for exposure across culture was clearly there as a Ubiquitous experience, engaging in it was a different matter.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:19:25]:
And if you look at US experience too, just that diversity is on the Campus doesn't guarantee that there is multicultural engagement. There has to be intentional effort to make it happen. There has to be willingness. There has to be respect and humility. You have to have all of those things, and that was a startling realization In terms of just because you have students from a 100 countries doesn't mean that you're going to have a multicultural experience. You have to work at it. And this is something that student affairs really is so strong in in comparison to other academic areas and so forth. But again, as we're saying, It can't be replicated right straight from the US.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:05]:
The principles of it, the philosophy of it, I think can be transferred, but how you do it has to be different.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:11]:
One other thing that I always try to conceptualize is how do I help lead a team to create a universal student experience without kind of engaging in colonialism is the best way I can put it. And that's so tough. Right? Because my training, my education, and my experiences are primarily US based. And so as we look at you know, we are privileged people to be able to live and work in another country. We are also being asked to be there because of the knowledge base that we bring and also trying to figure out how to do that in culturally appreciative ways of the environment that we're in. So can you talk about maybe a practice or some sort of departmental shift that you had to make to really engage the cultural elements of where you were compared to what you knew.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:20:56]:
I used some of the tools that I had used previously in my career. So particularly because There was really not a base of understanding student affairs from a research and theory and publication point of view. We did a lot of professional development efforts, And we did that actually in concert with some US institutions. We established something that we called the Qatar Foundation, YPI, Young Professionals Institute. And so we hosted institutions like Colorado State, Maryland, San Diego, who would bring their students over, and we would have these 2 week Experiences that were intensive cultural immersion, and then working in teams to bring ideas about Student affairs practice, but then to to recreate it as a cultural context. So we would have half US graduate and young professionals, and half Qatar based or Arab world based people that were interested in the field or employed in the field, and would they would work in teams together on certain kinds of topics. So for instance, one of the topics that was just wonderful to explore was the influence of family. And of course, US students are all talking about, oh, it's Important for you to be independent and autonomous from your families and so forth.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:05]:
And our local Arab world colleagues and Asian colleagues were saying, no. Not so much. Not so much. And so literally, the US students relearned in very powerful ways. But on the other hand, Our Arab world colleagues, our Asian colleagues also learned the merits of fostering independence and autonomy while doing it in a respectful sort of way of Environments that are very, very family oriented. One of the things that I also did personally was I practiced Very deep humility on a regular basis, humility and curiosity. And I had several cultural informants, who were colleagues who were willing to give me the the straight scoop about how I was coming across. Oh, that's

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:49]:
so important.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:22:51]:
Oh my gosh. It was incredible. I would not have survived without them. No way. And so I would regularly meet with them and ask them what was Going well. What was not going so well? And they would tell me. And that was difficult at first because not only am I a Privileged white American. I'm also old.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:09]:
I have white hair. And so in the cultural context, the reverence For somebody of my makeup was very significant and I really had to build trust so that people would tell me the truth. Because when you're in that kind of a position as a privileged white American or really kind of like as any kind of an American or European, you have to understand your Privilege. And if you don't understand your privilege, you're likely to do exactly what you suggested, which you will become a neocolonialist. You will impose your idea on other people whether it fits or not. And man, I just I learned so much from that. And I learned a term recently Lee, that I I think is kind of a really fun term. Have you ever heard of the term multi potentialite?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:52]:
No. That's new for me.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:23:53]:
It's actually TED Talks by Emily Wapnick. And when I listened to it, I kind of went like bingo. And all my career life, I've had wonderful jobs, and I've had a lot of fun, and I've had some Pushback in terms of I sometimes kind of have a different way of seeing things. Well, this multipotentialite thing has a lot to do with it. And the 3 characteristics that she identified are that they tend to be, very good at idea synthesis. They secondly are rapid learners, so they catch on quickly, and they they go for it while sometimes other people are kind of dragging their feet. And then thirdly, they're very adapt Across environments. And those things, I think, really, really helped me in the Qatar example.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:24:34]:
And I think it also relates to just My identity as an artist because, you know, I have an undergraduate degree in music, and musicians are always looking for relationships, and harmony, and sequence, And patterns, that's who musicians or artists are. And I think I actually express that in my work in Some pretty interesting ways. And I'm saying this because I think some of us that may look a little different or think a little bit differently than colleagues around us sometimes End up feeling as if that were not appreciated or were not affirmed. And I think it's really important to kinda look at your own gifts and try to figure out how that they fit With any particular work environment or any particular calling that you may want to consider. And that has a whole lot to do with this whole transitions theme of Knowing yourself well enough to know your strengths and weaknesses, and then identifying opportunities where your best gifts are gonna meet the The needs of a particular environment, and you're gonna be able to be effective in that other setting. And for the most part, I've been lucky. I had a lot of good lands, Couple, that's so good, but that's kinda the luck of the draw with some of that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:43]:
Let's talk about the transition of reverse culture shock. That's a rough one, and reverse culture shock, meaning you decided to return to the US to settle into semi retirement. You've been living in a different cultural context for 7 years at that point, but coming back to a context that you're supposed to know and understand well, but maybe may not make as much sense to you in some ways anymore or may make more sense to you in some ways. So what was that experience like?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:09]:
Yeah. Well, the first thing that I noticed was that People didn't really care. And that was frustrating because I learned so much from the work abroad experience I wanted to share. And so on numerous opportunities, I waxed eloquently about my work abroad experience, and eventually, I started noticing the glazed eyes And the fact that people just weren't interested. And that was disappointing to me as a reverse culture shock issue. I thought That my American colleagues around here would welcome that more. So I became more selective in terms of how I offered my point of view. And lots of people that I interact Now I have no clue that I've worked abroad and what my experience has been, and that's totally okay.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:26:53]:
But I I had an urgency of wanting to share it. I think probably came from just Self processing. So it was self processing publicly by talking to other people about it. So that definitely was something. Our choice of coming back To a setting that was more inclusive and had more diversity in, and it was also very purposeful. I was still working in Qatar in 2012 when we actually purchased our home and my wife moved to Chicago. And we moved from Oxford, Ohio. And, Oxford, Ohio is a Small town, kind of a bubble kind of setting in itself, not a lot of diversity.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:27:27]:
I knew full well there was no way that after working abroad, working with diverse colleagues, Working with diverse students, then I would be able to come back and and really enjoy a setting that was more homogeneous. So Chicago worked really well for us. We live in a very diverse neighborhood. Lots of internationals or expatriated people live in our neighborhood. Lots of cultural Diversity, socioeconomic diversity. I mean, I live in Wilmette, Illinois, and for those who have stereotypes about Wilmette, park them someplace Because, yes, there is the the North Shore Sheridan Road version of Wilmette, and then there's the version that I live in. And the version I live in is actually very diverse and very, very interesting. So the choice of where to come back as an expatriate, I think, is very important.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:12]:
And that both relates To if you come back to work someplace, as well as to come back to live someplace. I think you don't just come back and replug in to the old way of being Because the old way of being is gone. It just doesn't exist, and you're not comfortable there anymore. So I was transformed by my experience and very much sought Diverse experience, diverse exposure, and then dialing it down in terms of sharing my international wisdom. I share that in my writing. I don't share it in my personal interaction with people.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:45]:
Yes. And now you're sharing it on our show, which we're very grateful for.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:28:48]:
So, I mean, that was so powerful. It was, really wonderful. And for people that might want to consider international experience, it is a transition out and then back. And you can look at Transition experiences that you've had in other work or personal circumstances to look at the kind of strengths and challenges that you faced, And then figure out how to navigate in ways that that do not violate your values. And that's a really important part of this too is understanding your values well enough to know where Where do you have some flexibility versus where can you adapt and do it in ways that are gonna be both to your benefit and the benefit of others?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:25]:
What advice do you have for US based student affairs pros who might be looking for jobs in Education City or really anywhere outside of the US?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:29:34]:
They're kind of idiosyncratic in terms of the selection processes are not as transparent as they are in most US settings. And so at least in my experience, I don't know how this compares with yours, but it's not unusual at all for Referrals to be made on a personal basis rather than for there to be a an application process that you throw your vita or resume into the pile and it gets sorted out. So taking on experiences that allow you to tiptoe into it helps. I mean, my Luxembourg experience clearly Was tiptoeing into international work, so it was a temporary period. It was like a, you know, faculty study abroad program is basically what it was, and I think one of the things that I worry about a little bit is that sometimes I think people think that excuse me for being negative about this, But I've seen some study tours quote that are more what I would call ecotourism.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:29]:
Academic tourism. Don't even get me started. It's a whole thing.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:30:32]:
Okay. Well, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And that's not enough. If you're gonna choose an experience to Travel abroad, and you want to do it in a professional developing sort of way, then choose something that is a deep dive in terms of culture, requires lots of preparation in advance, requires lots of reflection during and after the process. Don't just go there to be able to notch it on your resume, travel to x number of countries. That just doesn't work, at least for me. And I I don't mean to be critical because I know all of these are steps toward being more internationally aware. But if you're in a student affairs position, you Kinda wanna consider this internationalization thing, then do it deeply.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:31:14]:
You know, find a program that really is gonna give you a deep dive and really engage you in ways that helps you to teach Humility and curiosity. So that would be my advice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:31:23]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:29]:
Thanks, Jill. So great to be back in the NASPA world. Really excited to be able to talk to you about the amazing things that are happening within our association. The 2024 NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is coming up July 29th to July 31st in Louisville, Kentucky. The purpose of the NASPA Student Affairs Fundraising Conference is to share and exchange strategies, ideas, and resources, And to discuss issues related to student affairs fundraising and external relations. The conference promotes an exchange of best practices, And it is designed for professionals who currently have development responsibilities specifically in student affairs And for professionals with backgrounds and experience in either student affairs or development. The call for programs for this conference is Currently open until February 26, 2024. And if you have an interest in presenting at the conference, I encourage you to submit before the deadline To be able to be considered to share with amazing professionals that are all there interested in the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]:
At the same time, we are also looking for reviewers for sessions that are submitted, and reviewer applications are also due by February 26th. Information on both of these opportunities can be found on the NASPA website. If you go to the event itself and click on it, You'll find out more information. Help ensure that eligible students are registered, educated about elections, and turn out to exercise their right to vote by considering to engage with the voter friendly campus program. This is a free initiative that's been growing since its inception in 2016 in partnership with the Campus Vote Project. You can find out more at campus vote Project .org. I know in the past I've talked about the Leadership Exchange as a great piece of professional development. This is a magazine that's sent out by NASPA every quarter to be able to allow for our vice presidents for student affairs to think about Topics that are pertinent to the day to day activities that they are dealing with, but that doesn't mean that if you're not a vice president for student affairs that you will not learn so much by reading the articles that are submitted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:47]:
One such article that I would highly recommend is called budget reduction 101, And it was written by incoming chair of the NASPA board, Anna Gonzalez and Christine Livingston. The great thing about this is that it is giving frontline perspectives on making effective cost cutting decisions and really gets into the mind of the chief student affairs officers on things that they can do to be able to cut costs and to manage Their divisions in an effective way. As I said, you don't have to be a vice president for student affairs to better understand this topic, but you will learn so much From reading this and getting into the mind of vice presidents within our association. If you have an interest in learning more about budget reduction or other topics, I encourage you to go to the NASPA website under publications and go to leadership exchange, and you'll be able to access the winter 2024 issue that does have This specific article in it or many of the other issues that have come in the past that I think that you will find to be Very eye opening. I know I've mentioned this before, but there are some amazing keynote speakers that are going to be at the 2024 NASPA virtual conference That is available April 2nd through 5th, and it's something that you and colleagues on your own campuses can definitely take advantage of Whether you're going to the national conference or not. A few of the keynote speakers that are going to be highlighted That are going to be speaking at the conference itself includes Josie Elquist, who's a higher education digital educator leader and author, Shawna Patterson Stevens. Doctor Shawna Patterson Stevens, vice president for inclusive excellence and belonging At at Central Michigan University and also doctor Kevin Kruger, president of NASPA will be speaking at the virtual conference. This among many great concurrent sessions that are available are going to allow for you and your colleagues to leave the days with So much great professional development and opportunities to be able to learn right from home or right from campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:57]:
If you wanna find out more about the virtual conference, go to learning .naspa.org Forward slash v c dash sessions. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways Because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might Encourage you might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways That allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:22]:
Because through doing that, All of us are stronger, and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:34]:
Thank you, Chris, for giving us the latest scoop on what's going on in and around NASPA. And, Denny, we have reached our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready to go?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:46]:
I sure am. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:47]:
Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:37:52]:
Well, I'm a classical musician trained person. It would be, The last movement of Mahler's 8th symphony.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:02]:
That'll be a very dramatic entrance.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:03]:
Very dramatic. Very dramatic. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:05]:
Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:09]:
Oh, I wanted to be a concert pianist. That was my whole vision of myself as a

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:13]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:17]:
Wow. This one is tough. I kinda thought about this a little bit this morning because I've had some great Mentors, I have to admit most of them have been women, and one person who is a colleague and mentor is Susan Komovaz. She's a delightful human being, and we Change a lot. Barbara Kellerman in the leadership studies world is somebody that I really respect. Esther Lloyd Jones, I had a chance to know her, and She taught me a lots of things about student affairs and what we're here for, and so I broke the rule. I gave you 3, so that's enough.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:45]:
Number 4, your Essential Student Affairs Read.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:48]:
Essential Student Affairs Read? Actually, Esther Lloyd Jones, deeper learning and leadership 1954.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:53]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:38:58]:
Oh, wow. Do I have to admit it? Succession. I'm sorry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:06]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:10]:
I actually listen to I do listen to this one, and I Really, really enjoyed this this podcast, but I watch, the International Leadership Association podcast, and there are actually a couple of them that I watch, regularly to get the wisdom from those.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:39:25]:
And finally, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:39:29]:
I thank Chris For introducing me to this opportunity, I think I'm kinda known in the in the professional world as more of an ACPA kind of person. So I don't show up in the NASPA space as As often as I might, even though I've been an ASPA member most of my career. Kevin Kruger was he had his 1st job with me. Yeah. And lots and lots of colleagues that are very active in NASPA, but I have maintained more in the the, ACPA area. And, you know, for me, these professional associations are so important in terms of giving us a colleague network, a way to push our understanding to Standing to learn from each other and that kind of thing. And so I I would give a a shout out to folks like you that are trying to get people's voices out there and get exchanged And professional organizations that allow us to relate to one another and discover how to do our best work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:40:21]:
Thank you so much, Denny. It's been an incredible opportunity to get know you today and your story. If anyone would like to reach you after the show airs, how can they find you?

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:40:30]:
My professional email is dc roberts48@gmail.com. And in Wilmette, Illinois, I have a LinkedIn profile. I have 2 blogs That I maintain one is called Pursuing Leadership by Denny, and that one's mostly about it has a lot in travel because I started in 2005 when I went to Luxembourg, but it's all by reading that I do on a regular basis. And then the other one's called Global Student Affairs. And that's more about international implications For people that are in student affairs work. So those would be the best ways to get in touch with me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:05]:
I'm looking forward to checking out that second one in particular.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:07]:
Jill, it's been great. Yeah. We have so many nice connections, and I feel like we're possibly birthed from the same parents. I don't know. But

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:16]:
I appreciate the deep connections on so many levels, whether it be music or international higher education or student affairs journey or even where we've been in the US. So, Denny, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Denny Roberts [00:41:29]:
Great. Alright. I look forward to seeing you again.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:41:34]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at s a voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. Ginz. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:42:08]:
It really does help other student fairs professionals find the show, and helps raise the show's profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your or as we create this project. Catch you next time.

Adapting to Students' Needs Across Institutional Types

The recent episode of the SA Voices From The Field Podcast featuring Hing Potter dove deep into student affairs and the unique intricacies of working at different types of educational institutions. Potter's transition to the assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco brought to light his advocacy for student development through inclusion and empowerment, which is a hallmark of his 11-year career.

Changes in Professional Focus

One remarkable aspect Potter shared was how his professional focus needed to shift as he navigated the diverse environments of 4-year public, 4-year private, and 2-year public institutions. This included adjusting plans and thought processes according to the timeframe of students' academic careers, thereby reinforcing the importance of adaptability in student affairs.

Ensuring Continuity and Leadership

Another challenge Dr. Jill Creighton discussed with Potter is how to guarantee continuity and develop student leadership within the limited timespan specific to 2-year colleges. Potter emphasized the need for transparency in passing on institutional knowledge, ensuring that successive student councils can uphold and continue advocating for student experiences.

Salary Negotiation and Personal Advocacy

The episode also highlighted Hing Potter's recent negotiation for a higher salary at City College, a testament to recognizing and advocating for one's value in the workplace. Dr. Jill Creighton's insights into the importance of comparing qualifications with job descriptions, depersonalizing negotiations, and communicating in writing provided listeners with valuable tips for their own career advancements.

Upcoming NASPA Events

Additionally, the episode provided updates on upcoming NASPA events, such as the 2024 Leadership Educators Institute and the 2024 national conference. These gatherings represent the changing and elevating landscape of student affairs as professionals continue their journey.

Hing Potter's story is not just about the transitions within the professional sphere but also about personal growth and advocacy. It teaches us the profound impact of understanding institutional types, the art of negotiation, and the continuous pursuit of fostering student success.

 

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:01]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 10, continuing our season 9 theme of on transitions in student affairs. This Podcast is brought to you by NASPA, and I'm doctor Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Today on SA Voices, we are pleased to welcome Heng Potter. Going into 11 years in student affairs, Heng Potter, he, him, main drive has been to support student development by creating space and opportunity through inclusion, empowerment, and self authorship. In his own state of transition this past fall, Hing became the new assistant director of student life and leadership at City College of San Francisco where he advises the Associated Students, overseas student clubs and orgs, and is responsible for the student union. As a Khmer Transracial Transnational Adoptee or TRA and having previous life and work in Seattle, Boise, New York City, San Jose, and now San Francisco, Heng is no stranger to transformative life experience and transitions from one place to the next.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:08]:
In the community. Heng serves on the leadership team of the San Francisco chapter of Project by Project, a national nonprofit focused on amplifying Asian American issues, and he also serves on the leadership team of the NASPA Asian Pacific Islander Knowledge Community or APIKC. In his own time, Hing enjoys travel, photography, and spending time with a 17 year old dachshund, Buster, and his partner, Jasmine. Ping, welcome to SA Voices.

Hing Potter [00:01:33]:
Hi. Thanks for having me here today.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:35]:
We're very glad to feature you today about your transition that is fairly fresh. By the time this episode airs, you'll have been in your new position for about 3 or for months. But right now, we're sitting at about the 60 day mark. And right now, before we get into all of the details of your transition, I'd love guests to start with how you got to your current seat.

Hing Potter [00:01:55]:
Yeah. Thank you so much again. Let's see. I came To City College of San Francisco because in my previous role, I felt like I had just outgrown myself. There wasn't much room for need to expand my professional skills or abilities. And I really just wanted to find a new challenge, a new way for me to interact with students, And I think it was just time for me to move on. So, you know, I did the whole thing where I put myself out there as best possible in different Formats apply to different colleges and universities, and City College of San Francisco is one of them, back in, I think, April time. And then I had a Couple interviews, 1 in the end of April and then 1 in the middle of May.

Hing Potter [00:02:35]:
That interview was all the way when I was vacationing in Spain, unforced I was actually on my way to my cousin's Wedding rehearsal dinner a hour before that. And I had, like, my laptop and everything on top of, like, this ironing board to give it elevation and stuff, And I met with the dean and the vice chancellor at that time. And then, over the summer, I eventually heard back by August. And 2 months later, I'm here. So that's, in a nutshell, what happened.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:02]:
And you physically moved as well. Yes? Moved cities?

Hing Potter [00:03:05]:
Kind of. Actually, if we wanna expand this whole transition period, when the pandemic hit in early 2020, that's when I had actually moved from New York City to San Jose, California, so South Bay Area. And that was when I also moved into that new position at my previous role. And then that was an experience in itself because I felt like maybe I was, like, one of the first people to actually move geographical locations in the early onset of Pandemic, and I had left pretty much all of my stuff in New York. I brought a suitcase with me of just clothes, and then I had to ask a friend back in New York to Muster up the courage and go to my apartment and, like, pack all my stuff and wear a face mask and tell her to, like, please take care of yourself. If you don't feel comfortable, Please don't do this. But if it you are able to, I would, like, be more than happy to, like, compensate you in some way, shape, or form. I'll even pay for the shipping, of course.

Hing Potter [00:03:57]:
And so she was actually very, very, very helpful, and I'm so much gratitude for her for shipping all my stuff out to me from New York to the Bay Area.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:05]:
That's a great friend.

Hing Potter [00:04:06]:
Yeah. Somebody who really went above and beyond the call of duty. And then fast forward a couple years Now from San Jose, I now live in kinda close by Stanford University in between Palo Alto, Menlo Park area. And I'm here with my partner and our little tiny 16 year old, dachshund. So his name is bust. Oh, senior doggy. Yes. He's a pandemic puppy.

Hing Potter [00:04:30]:
A couple years ago, my partner really, really, really, really wanted a dog, so We finally caved.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:36]:
So thinking about all of the transitions that you've gone through, and it's really not just this immediate transition, but Lots of transitions starting about 3, 4 years ago at this point. How did you prepare yourself mentally to throw yourself into new environments and new spaces and new collegial relationships when the world was kind of in upheaval.

Hing Potter [00:04:57]:
I think for me, coming from New York to the Bay Area, That was definitely a challenge because, you know, initially, I had asked if I could go from New York to my parents in Seattle. And they actually told me no, not because they don't love me, but because at that time, everybody's very nervous about the Pandemic, and my parents are 60 and over. And at that time, you know, elderly people wanna be cautious. And that also New York was One of the early epicenters of the pandemic. And so they actually told me no. I was devastated inside, and I didn't know exactly how I was gonna get out of New York. I didn't know how I was gonna to this new job that I had lined up for myself. I didn't know if it would be safe to fly.

Hing Potter [00:05:40]:
A lot of things were up in the air. So I must've got my own courage. I bought a ticket actually from New York to Idaho because I went to undergrad in Idaho, and I made a lot of good friends out there. And Idaho hadn't really been hit yet, So I called up my friends there and say, hey. I need a crash over there. Can I hang out with you for a little bit? They're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem.

Hing Potter [00:06:00]:
Stay as long as you need. Get yourself out of New York. Do what you need to do. So I went to Idaho, actually, and I was there for a whole month, April that year. And then my job was supposed to start in June, and so I needed to somehow then get from Idaho to the Bay Area. So then I ended up buying a car because I realized at that time the pandemic was just getting worse, and flying just wasn't an option anymore for me, Personally, I just didn't feel comfortable. And so I bought a car, and then I drove all the way from Idaho to the Bay Area. It's about maybe 10 hours or so Driving, and I got here.

Hing Potter [00:06:38]:
And in the whole mist of, like, trying to get from Idaho to the Bay Area, I found this guy on Craigslist who had a extra room in a bungalow house for pretty cheap. And I was like, hey. It's something he told me he that he keeps his place clean and sanitary, and then he takes all the COVID precautions at that time, and I had to trust him and just go with it. So I did that. And then I got there in May, had a couple weeks to just Chill and not do anything, like, literally not do anything because everybody's on shutdown, and I'm just twiddling my thumbs in front of my face trying to stay active somehow. And then 2 weeks later, I start on June 1st at my previous role and went from there. It was a wild, maybe two and a half months or so In that transition.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:20]:
So by comparison, your transition to your current position maybe seems a little more mild.

Hing Potter [00:07:25]:
It definitely. A little bit more mild, a little bit more easy to Navigate. I didn't necessarily have to, like, change states twice. I didn't have to figure out how to get from a to b buying a new car or anything. Or I have a car now. Thank goodness. And I can take public transportation, which is pretty nice. And City of College isn't that far from where I live now, where I as I used to work in San Jose, California.

Hing Potter [00:07:47]:
When you're now, I work in almost South San Francisco area, so not too much of a hassle there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:51]:
Did you change functional areas?

Hing Potter [00:07:53]:
You could say that. Yes. So in my previous role, I was in student services, which is more comprehensive. It supported students, particularly graduate students, trying to help them with navigating everything From student involvement to student resources to crisis management, title 9 advocacy, and Overall student services operations, so making sure everything from new student orientation in their own transition into the university, All the way to commencement so they're transitioned out of the university. And here in my new role, I strictly just advise the associate student Councils. I support student clubs and organizations, and I'm responsible for the student union building. So a lot more, you know, defined role for me, a lot more Concentrated, which I appreciate, and a big pay bump for me. So I'm I'm happy about where I'm at right now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:43]:
I believe you also shifted from private to 2 year public, which is, I think, a pretty big mentality shift in terms of how you approach the work every day. So tell us about that transition of environment.

Hing Potter [00:08:56]:
Oh my gosh. That is definitely something of a transition to experience. So I actually used to work in a public institution where I got to experience all that bureaucracy, barriers, and red tape, whatever you wanna call it. And then coming to My previous university as a private institution, you have a lot of leeway to kinda just do what you need to do. You have a lot more independent ability to make decisions and support your students in a more immediate manner. And I had my own university card, which was Super flexible in terms of, like, just making purchases and getting what we needed to have for our next event. You still set boundaries, of course, with their students So, like, hey. You gotta meet some timelines.

Hing Potter [00:09:37]:
I can't just go out tomorrow and get what you need for the next day, but it was a lot more flexible, I would say. And here coming back into the public sector, you definitely hit the wall really hard In terms of what is allowable in certain time frames and how you can get things done through different mechanisms. I also don't have a university or a college card anymore, so that's very interesting. And I actually had a a conversation with some students today. And Normally on Fridays, they get pizza for their meetings. And so this Friday, because it's their last meeting of the semester, they wanted to kinda have a little bit more of a Grandiose food invitation for people to come and join them. And they they honestly came up to me and said, hey, Heng. I know that this is really Awkward, but would you be willing to help us with, like, food and stuff? And I was like, well, what do you mean? Like, well, are you okay with putting this on your card, and we'll reimburse you? Like, Which is typical at this school.

Hing Potter [00:10:38]:
But in such a short period of time, I really had to just say, you know what? I can't do this. This is only a couple days notice, and you don't know if I have this money set aside personally for other things that I need to do. And I'm gonna be honest. Like, you guys need to prepare or plan ahead more in advance for something like this. You can't just make last minute adjustments. And the fact that you coming up to me saying, hey. Hey. This is really awkward, lets me know that you know you didn't plan well enough for quite a change in just 2 days.

Hing Potter [00:11:07]:
So There's that kind of mentality when it comes to how you get funds and resources or how you have to Plan ahead and think about what you wanna do. And at a private institution, you might be able to have a little bit more flexibility with last minute adjustments. But at a public institution, you kinda have to be committed. One of my previous roles when I was in New York at John Jay, all of our clubs had to Submit, for example, a whole year's worth, a calendar of events with budgets for each events, and that was due before classes started in the fall. And these were events all the way from September all the way to next May. And at at private school, you still have a year's worth of events planned out, but you don't have to Necessarily preallocate a whole bunch of stuff that far in advance. So a lot more flexibility in terms of, like, what you can and cannot do. So quickly learning that back here in the public sector on my own.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:00]:
Flexibility, but also budgetary privilege. So I think depending on the nature of your private institution, the funds are just unrestricted in different ways where they might be more restricted at a public institution, but also the privilege of the size of the budget Or the different things that you're doing. And it always hurts my heart to hear that a lot of times that students or individual Professionals are funding the work of the university and having it reimbursed. I think that's a business practice that is really challenging because it makes a lot of assumptions, and it also puts the labor on the people that are earning the least. It's just it's a challenging dynamic.

Hing Potter [00:12:37]:
Me and my new dean, we we talked about how where do we draw the line when it comes to like this. And is this really our problem in terms of using our personal funds, or how much of this is a college problem? The fact that the college doesn't have the mechanisms in place is not my issue, and it's not my dean's issue. It's, you know, the college's issue that They can't have systems where it's more streamlined and it's more beneficial and it's more immediate For the student experience. So that really does impact how they go around doing things. And I don't want students to be spending most of their Time when they're in these leadership roles or in they're in these student clubs trying to navigate these systems. That's not what being involved uninvolved student is about. I want them to be able to just do what they need to do, and institutions in general need to figure out what that is that they can do to kind of, like, break down those Barriers. Unfortunately, it might not always be a college issue.

Hing Potter [00:13:33]:
It could be a district wide issue, or it could be a state issue. And in different institutions, It could come down to, you know, the registrars or the bursars or whoever's controlling the money for the institution. It could be a specific department issue and a range of things, but Students shouldn't have to be navigating those those types of waters in the 1st place, I don't think.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:53]:
Other than the budgetary modeling and planning, what are the other differences that you're experiencing moving from private to public.

Hing Potter [00:14:01]:
Well, one of the things is that at my private institution that I was at, it was a 4 year institution. But I was working mostly with graduate students in tech. And now I'm working with community college students who Have a range of ages and a range of perspectives. And I was also formally more working mostly with international graduate Students. And now I'm working with mostly domestic US students. So that's kind of a shift in itself. Working with international students, you really had to Talk to them a lot more about culture and around how higher ed works in terms of different systems and processes to get their programming in place. Whereas at City College of San Francisco, the students are a little bit more intuitive about these processes because it's kind of built into the culture of, like, going to school and the stuff that my international students were doing, the graduate international students were Very more professional development focused, whereas the community college students, they're more about building culture.

Hing Potter [00:15:02]:
They're more about enriching this the campus experience. They're also doing a lot of they have this theme this year, informal theme of advocacy. So they're really trying to, like, source What are the issues on campus and how they're impacting students and what their role is in terms of advocating for a better experience when it comes to x, y, and z issues. So Whereas the international students, again, more professional development focused, not necessarily too concerned with the policies and issues that might that you might find at institution of of a 4 year institutions. Kinda some of those on the surface level differences for sure.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:37]:
I feel like a lot of Professionals spend most of their career in one type of institution, and you've done 4 year public, 4 year private, and now 2 year public. Kind of looking across all of those experiences. And to overgeneralize to a degree, what do you see as kind of the changes in Foci for you as a professional as you navigate these different types of institutions.

Hing Potter [00:16:00]:
I think, For me, the focus between we'll just generalize from a 4 year to a 2 year. The focus is at a 4 year institution, You have the ability to work with the students in a little bit more long term opportunity. You're working for example, when I was at John Jay, I'm working with these students who find themselves invested in in programming and involvement and leadership in a more long term plan. Whereas Here at City College, they wanna be done in 2 years. And so they wanna have action. They wanna have things get done a lot more quickly. But, again, kinda going back to the whole bureaucracy machine, how quickly that happens can be different. So it's like I was talking to a student actually the other day.

Hing Potter [00:16:47]:
We were talking about this whole three five seven plan. What do you wanna have normally happen in 3 years and 5 years and 7 years? And I had to work with the student to say, like, okay. Well, we're at a 2 year school. Instead of 357, what do you wanna have done maybe in, like, 2 semesters, in 3 semesters, and 4 semesters? Because by that time, now the question should be, what have you been able to do in terms of advocating for the student experience that you want? And when you walk away, What kind of legacy will you be proud to have left here at City College that you can say, I did that? Whereas at a 4 year institution, I'm I'm working with students. Not necessarily 357 again, but more of like, k. What do you wanna do in the 1st year, the 2nd year, 3rd year, and 4th year? So it's a little bit different planning, a little bit different, like, Thought process when I'm working with the students in that regard. How do

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:41]:
you plan for continuity and student leadership in a model that's much shorter in time frame?

Hing Potter [00:17:47]:
Oh my goodness. It really does come down, I think, to working with the students on that transition between leadership. So, for example, really working with the council that I have right now and saying, how are we building your council institutional knowledge, And how are we working to make sure that that knowledge is passed on to the next council in a transparent and clear way? What are you doing right now to make sure that if so and so person who follows you in your footsteps, When they pick up the work that you're doing, they can easily see, oh, okay. I have to now do steps 3, 4, and 5 because the last person did Steps 1 and 2. So it really comes down to that clear transparency of what they're doing now, how they're doing it, and Putting it together for, clearly, for the next group. One of the things that we actually talked about coincidentally today is communication. Not just communication between each other today, but communication between a theoretical group that's gonna take over next year And then that group that's gonna take over in 2 years. City College is building its new student success center.

Hing Potter [00:18:54]:
And one of the big projects that this council wants to have is this social justice mural that will go in the student success center. The building is not gonna be done for another, maybe, two and a half years. So by then, we'll be 2, maybe 3 councils down the road. What does that continuity look like between today and the council that looks To be there in place when the student success center actually comes online. So these are questions that I'm asking of them to consider as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:19:21]:
You've got this beautiful plan going forward, and we all know that with student leadership shifts, priorities change as well. How do you Think you're going to be navigating when the priorities of previous councils don't align with the future councils.

Hing Potter [00:19:36]:
I think the biggest thing when I'm working with students is really creating a mindset of student Advocacy, student experience, and this notion of student involvement that is meaningful And that is impactful. And so the focus of each council I think it's okay for it to change year over year if that's the case. But as long as it's still centered and rooted in enhancing the student experience or enhancing the Opportunities that students have to get involved and get engaged, grow their skill sets professionally and personally, then I think that's the core thing to to maintain. And that's something that I will always tell students regardless of how long I'm in this field. And that's something that I've always told students for the 10 years that I've been in this field is that priorities change, and that's totally fine. And my job isn't necessarily to tell students what their priorities should be. My job is to tell them, Hey. Your priorities are great.

Hing Potter [00:20:36]:
They make sense that they're sustainable. But as long as they're rooted in the ability for students to grow themselves. I think that's the most important factor there.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]:
Let's back up a little bit and talk about you as a human doing all of these transitions. So you've created what sounds like a really great game plan for yourself for the next couple of semesters in this new position. But what other factors did you need to be thinking about about entering a new role, especially knowing that the institutional type was going to be a new environment for you.

Hing Potter [00:21:07]:
Personally, for me, before I came to City College, One of the requirements for me was that I needed them to honor my 2 week vacation that I had that I just came back from a couple weeks ago when I went to Asia. And if they didn't do that, then that was gonna be a deal breaker. And so luckily for me, they said yes. Like, no worries. We'll make it work. We definitely wanna respect that. Another thing for me was just making sure that my own value was seen and met In terms of the abilities that I bring to the table, but also the lifestyle that I wanted to maintain or grow myself. So in terms of, like, a salary, I had to really learn how to advocate.

Hing Potter [00:21:46]:
This is my 1st time advocating for a salary that I wanted, a salary that I knew that I deserved. I think, City College, they they have this grade step program where I think it's, like, grades 1 through 12 or something. And they posted this position as grade 1, so they were gonna offer me grade 1. And me knowing what I know, how long I've been in the field, I knew that I was not at that value. So I also felt a little bit like, okay. Grade 1 is entry level. You know? I'm I'm justifying these reasons for why I'm not a grade one person. Grade one is entry level.

Hing Potter [00:22:23]:
I'm well beyond entry level. I have a better understanding of the student experience At multiple different types of institutions, coast to coast, I'm not grade one value. So I actually had to write this out in an email to them to the HR office. And I, you know, came to them with all these points. And the next day, they gave me a call, and I said, Hey. How's it going? And they said, well, we wanted to talk to you about your salary. And I was like, okay. Well, first, before you say anything, I'm sorry.

Hing Potter [00:22:51]:
But before you say anything, Did you get my email? Yes. We got your email. Okay. Great. And I wanted to ask that because it's super important that we start there because that is what's important to me. That is where I see my value. And what can you offer me based upon me being in student affairs for 10 years, me having all this different and the fact that you came to me asking me to come to City College. And so they actually bumped me up 3 or 4 grades more, which was An extra almost $20,000.

Hing Potter [00:23:23]:
So when they offered me that, I was like, okay. Now we're talking. Like, I can come to City College now. So it was a lot of anxiety. It was I was really nervous when I'm typing this email out to HR. My fingers were sweating, and I had never really been Taught or told how to write an email out like this or or anything? I mean, people tell you all the time, know your worth. Know what your value is. And I honestly think, you know, it is easier said than done to, like, give this advice to people.

Hing Potter [00:23:52]:
But when the person who's receiving that advice takes it, Yes. You can receive it. But then when it comes time to execute it, it's a whole another story. Like, you now have to do something that you might not ever have done before. You might have to do something that another person that looks like me, a brown Asian person, might not have ever done before. And so I share this story now because I think it's super important that I have now lived this experience. I have written that email. I've Had that tough conversation with HR to say, this is a deal breaker.

Hing Potter [00:24:23]:
If you don't see my value, don't recognize me for what I bring to the table, then I don't know if I can come to City College. Luckily enough for me, they saw that and were able to give me what I wanted.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:33]:
And I think that's great advice. And, also, it sounds like you were willing to walk away if that was necessary.

Hing Potter [00:24:39]:
I'll be completely honest. I wasn't necessarily happy at my previous role because, as I said, there was no growth you did for me there. I wasn't doing the creative work that I love doing anymore there because I just didn't have the opportunities to to banned. But if City College didn't see my worth or my value, I sadly was going to stay at my previous role and suck it up because It just wasn't something that I really wanted to fight for, to go to battle for. I was making the self conscious decision that Even though I wasn't growing, I still loved the students. And I don't think anybody I'm not saying to do what I do or Think about what I think about, but it's a really sad situation, I think, when people are put into those situations. And having to decide whether you You wanna stay at a place where you have no growth, but you love the students or having to potentially go somewhere else where they might see your value, but you don't know what you're getting yourself into. So it's it's a tricky field to navigate.

Hing Potter [00:25:41]:
And regardless of who you are, I wouldn't wish that on anybody. It just happened to turn out in my favor for me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:47]:
We haven't talked a ton about salary negotiation on the show, and I think you've offered some really important tips. Let me repackage them just really concisely for folks who are trying to negotiate for themselves and have never done it before. Step 1 is to compare your resume and your experiences with the job description and really note where you meet and where you exceed those minimum qualifications and those preferred qualifications because that's gonna be your starting point for arguing for more money. It's not really an argument, a negotiation. And I think step 2 is, Ping said it really well, you need to be working with HR, not necessarily the hiring manager, depending on who's making the offer, and it is typically coming from the HR perspective. Sometimes you're gonna run up against a budgetary limitation where there's only so much budgeted for the position and there's not flexibility, and that's something you need to be prepared to here. And sometimes you're going to be in a position like Hain was where your experiences are clearly articulated in a way that the budgetary Alignment wasn't there from the starting spot and you can get there together to an ending spot. But I think another important thing is to depersonalize it a little bit.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:54]:
So instead of saying, can you offer x? Perhaps can x institution offer this amount of money? And so you're asking what the institution can do, not what the person can do. And that can depersonalize it a little bit and make it really more about the business perspective about what's happening in your salary negotiation. The 3rd piece of advice that I heard from Hing is make sure you do it in writing at first. And then beyond that, you can have that negotiation conversation on the phone. But getting it out in writing also gives both parties a chance to really be reflective and think about things. And that way, it's also not a pressured environment for either party, and no one is kind of at liberty to respond in the moment. They can both go back and take some time. Did I miss any tips from you, Heng?

Hing Potter [00:27:37]:
No. That was very well, succinctly said for me. Appreciate it. The only other thing that I would Definitely recommend is that when you do go into a different institution and you start looking at how their salaries are structured is really becoming knowledgeable about their pay grade systems and how it works. The California Community College System is a beast, And I wouldn't know where to look because I don't know the system that well. But when I had started looking at the salary options and things like that, A really good friend of mine, doctor Dawn Li from San Jose State University, she had previous experience in the community college system and really gave me some good advice and helped me to navigate some of these intricacies when it comes to payroll structures and how to word things and how to really advocate for yourself. So I really wanna just give a shout out to her and give her all the things and and being able to support me. So having somebody, you know, with that experience in Whatever system you are looking potentially to go into, that's another plus on your half if you can get that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:42]:
It's time to take a quick Break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]:
Thanks so much, Jill. Really excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there is So much going on as we continue to move into 2024. The 2024 Leadership Educators Institute is from December 9th through 11th in Philadelphia. Make sure to save that date because the Leadership Educators Institute or LEI provides a unique Opportunity for all professional levels within our field to engage in critical dialogue to promote positive, sustainable change on their campuses. LEI is a partnership between NASPA, ACPA, College Student Educators International, and the National Clearing House for leadership programs. Go to the NASBA website under events for more information. If you are planning to attend the 2024 national conference in Seattle, Washington from March 9th through 13th. There's a number of things that you need to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:42]:
Make sure to check your email because you're getting dates sent to you on a regular basis. There are still opportunities to sign up the volunteer at NASPA 2024. So if you're interested in helping to make this year's conference amazing, make sure to sign up today to be able to Find some time to volunteer at as a part of this amazing conference. Volunteering is a fantastic way to support the conference, serve your colleagues, And make this year's event the best it can possibly be. As I said, an email has been sent out with a sign up that you can use to be able to find a time that works best for your schedule, and I encourage you to take advantage of that right away. Recently, Aku Oai, the placement exchange in NASPA released a joint statement with some exciting news about the placement exchange. They've developed a brand new brand identity, a new website, revamped resources, and enhanced Services. If you haven't checked it out yet, I encourage you to check out the newly redesigned website at www Dot the placement exchange, all one word, .org.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:51]:
Though TPE is gonna look a little bit different and feel a little bit different, They are elevating their game to be able to do what they can to be able to assist all of us as professionals in our own professional journey. So check out the placement exchange today to find out more about what TPE can offer you in the journey that you're on. I also wanted to let you know about a Free event that is happening called well-being in higher education, raising literacy and advancing the conversation. Join over 20 higher education associations As they come together in dialogue around well-being. Now this buzzword is seemingly everywhere, But what does it really mean? Why does it matter? And how can we each contribute to this critical work? Well-being in higher education, raising literacy, and Dancing the Conversation is a free virtual event taking place February 26th through March 1st. The well-being in higher education event is One of the outcomes of the health and well-being in higher education, a commitment to student success, and will help Put the inter association well-being definition into practice. Registration details and a more detailed schedule of sessions is available on the NASPA website. So go to the NASPA website today to find out more about this amazing free professional development event.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:14]:
Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So We are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because The association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be Getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, It's important to be able to identify for yourself. Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that We will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will Provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that. Or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:34]:
Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:39]:
Chris, thank you so much for another excellent NASPA world segment. We really appreciate you keeping us stated on what's going on in and around in NASPA. And, Heng, we have reached the part of the show where we do our lightning round, and I have 7 questions for you in about 90 seconds. You ready?

Hing Potter [00:33:55]:
Let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:56]:
Alright. Question 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music

Hing Potter [00:34:03]:
to be. Maybe, Get Low by, Lil Jon and the Yingying Twins.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]:
Number 2. When you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew

Hing Potter [00:34:10]:
A pilot. An airline pilot, hands down.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:13]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Hing Potter [00:34:16]:
I would say my housing director From when I was in ResLife as a resident assistant back in Seattle, Luke Botstein from Edmonds College.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:27]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Hing Potter [00:34:30]:
At the moment, the NASPA conference 2024 website because I'm trying to stay up on today on that.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:36]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Hing Potter [00:34:39]:
I rewatched The West Wing, I think, for the 6th or 7th time, and then I'm also a Trekkie, so I watched Star Trek The Next Generation, then Deep Space Nine, and then Voyager.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:49]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Hing Potter [00:34:53]:
Probably a toss-up between the The Daily, I think it is, and then the NPR Politics podcast in the afternoon.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:59]:
And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give personal or professional?

Hing Potter [00:35:03]:
Definitely wanna give a shout out to my friends on the API KCL looking forward to a 2024 conference experience that's gonna be amazing with you all. And then also specifically to my My awards and recognition co chairs Jerome and Justin. So really appreciate being with you all. And then, of course, Wanna give a shout out lastly to my best and favorite director ever out there in New York City, doctor Danielle Officer at John Jay College.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:33]:
Ping, it's been a pleasure to hear about your transition today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they grab you?

Hing Potter [00:35:39]:
Send me a DM or Follow me on Instagram at Hing d Potter or threads. I guess that's the new thing these days. Feel free to follow me on threads.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:48]:
Hing, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Hing Potter [00:35:50]:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me again. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:56]:
This has been an episode of Student Affairs Voices From the Field, a podcast brought to you by NASPA. This show continues to be possible because you choose to listen to us. We are so grateful for your subscriptions and your downloads and your engagement with to the content. If you'd like to reach the show, please email us at sa voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill Elcraton. We always welcome your feedback and your topic and guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show and give us a five a star rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps raise the show's to profile within the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor to Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:44]:
Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

This week on the SA Voices From The Field Podcast we bring you Angelina Jenkins, Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. We are excited to explore her own professional journey as a mid level professional to doctoral student while also balancing and supporting her own multiple identities and what has helped her to become the person she is today.

Angelina Jenkins (she/her/hers), originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania is a proud bi-racial, multi-ethnic Asian American woman and daughter of a South Korean immigrant. She integrates these aspects of her identity into celebrating authenticity and culture while also exploring the journey of building an understanding of self-empowerment. She works with students, staff/faculty, and community members to cultivate an inclusive learning and healing environment through the celebration of culture and identity. Angelina is currently the Assistant Director with Initiatives for Identity, Inclusion, & Belonging (i3b) for The Mosaic: Center for Cultural Diversity at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County. She is also in her first year of doctoral studies, pursuing a Ph.D. at The University of Maryland in the Higher Education, Student Affairs, and International Education Policy program. Angelina currently serves as one of the 2023-2025 Asian Pacific Islanders Promoting Educational eXcellence (APPEX) Coordinators for the NASPA APIKC Leadership Team.

As we step into the year 2024, Dr. Jill Creighton and Dr. Christopher Lewis are excited to bring you Season 10 of SA Voices from the Field! In this episode, the hosts reflect on our journey, celebrating the four-year anniversary of collaborating on the show and the immense impact it has had on the community.

Embracing Transitions

Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis highlighted the success of the previous season, which centered on transitions in student affairs. They expressed their enthusiasm for the overwhelming response from guests and listeners, prompting them to continue exploring this critical theme in the upcoming season. The decision to extend the focus on transitions demonstrates the importance of understanding and navigating the multifaceted experiences of professionals in student affairs. Diverse Perspectives on Transitions The hosts emphasized the diversity of transitions covered in the previous season, ranging from personal and professional life transitions to national and international relocations. This diversity underscored the multifaceted nature of transitions experienced by individuals within the student affairs community. By acknowledging and amplifying these diverse voices, the podcast fosters a more inclusive dialogue on the challenges and triumphs associated with transitions.

The Power of Storytelling

A key takeaway from the episode was the power of storytelling in engendering understanding and empathy. Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed gratitude to the guests who shared their transition stories, emphasizing the impact of these narratives in enriching the collective knowledge of the student affairs community. By amplifying these stories, the podcast serves as a platform for professionals to learn from each other's experiences and gain insights into managing transitions effectively.

Engaging the Community

The hosts extended an invitation for the audience to actively participate in the upcoming season by sharing their transition stories. This call to action emphasizes the inclusive and participatory nature of the podcast, empowering listeners to contribute their voices to the ongoing dialogue. By featuring the community's stories, the podcast not only expands its content but also strengthens the sense of camaraderie and support among student affairs professionals.

Connecting at Conferences

Dr. Creighton and Dr. Lewis expressed anticipation for engaging with the audience at an upcoming conference in Seattle. They highlighted the significance of in-person connections and the opportunity to gather further insights from the community. The podcast's commitment to engaging with professionals in live settings underscores its dedication to fostering meaningful connections and continuously learning from the community.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm doctor Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. It's 2024, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:25]:
It is. It's amazing. I can't believe that it hits already 2024.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:29]:
We were just talking about this in our preshow conversation, But this will actually mark the 4 year anniversary of us collaborating on this show.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]:
I can say that I never would have expected that we would have Kept going for 4 years, but it has been an amazing ride. We've learned so much from so many of our guests, and it's been so much fun.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:50]:
I am Very proud of the work that we've put out over the last couple of years. And this last season, season 9 on transitions has really been a popular one in terms of guests wanting to come on the show and people asking to hear more about these spaces. So for season 10, which feels fitting because it's on our anniversary of the show year. We're actually gonna just kinda keep it rolling, which we've never done before. We've never done a double season on 1 theme, But we felt like there were a lot more stories still to tell in this transition space.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
Everyone's transition is so different. And we heard that in this season, in season 9, but so many people, like you said, came out of the woodwork and were like, I wanna tell my story. I wanna tell my story. So We are so excited to be able to continue to share these stories, and we wanna hear from you too because as we move into the conference, we're gonna be talking to you there. As we look at other aspects, we just encourage you to reach out and talk to us and share some of the stories that you have because The more that we all can share these stories, the more that we can learn, grow, and have better transitions as we move into other Positions, other jobs, other opportunities that may present themselves to us in the years to come.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:06]:
When we talk to people with transitions in both personal life and professional life, and national life, and we welcome all of those. Some of you became parents. Some of you dealt with health transitions. Some of you transitioned parts of the country. Some of you transition countries, and many of you had a lot of great advice on how other professionals can learn from your experiences in transitions. So coming this February, we'll be back with our 10th season of essay voices from the field continuing our theme of on transitions in student affairs. And, again, as Chris mentioned, if you happen to be in Seattle, we can't wait to see you. We will be bringing our many pocket recorders with us again, and we'll have questions for you to feature your voice on the show.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:52]:
This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at sa voices at NASPA.org or or find me on LinkedIn by searching for doctor Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:32]:
This episode was produced and hosted by doctor Jill L. Creighton, that's me, produced and audio engineered by doctor Chris Lewis, guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan in Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this week's bonus episode of the SA Voices From the Field Podcast, host Dr. Jill Creighton engaged in a thought-provoking discussion with guest Adam Jussel, the Dean of Students at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. Through their conversation, Jussel provided valuable insights into the complexities of trauma-informed care and the profound impact it can have on individuals within a university setting. This blog post aims to delve deeper into the essential topics discussed during the episode, shedding light on the challenges and strategies related to addressing stress and trauma within a campus community.

Exploring the Impact of the Pandemic on Mental Health

Adam Jussel shared compelling findings from a study conducted on mental health among university employees during the pandemic. The research revealed alarming statistics, with 36% of participants screening positive for post-traumatic stress disorder and over 40% experiencing extreme stress or near-extreme stress. This data underscores the profound impact of the pandemic on the mental well-being of university staff and faculty.

Identifying Contributing Factors and Mitigating Strategies

The study identified various factors that contributed to heightened stress and trauma, including the challenges of caregiving, social isolation, uncertainty about the future, and the lack of tools to mitigate stress. Additionally, political and civic strife in the United States emerged as a significant contributor to exacerbating trauma and stress during the pandemic. On the other hand, the study also highlighted several mitigating factors, such as the presence of a strong social support network, spending time outside, physical activity, a sense of purpose, and meaningful experiences in work.

Implementing Trauma-Informed Care Frameworks

Adam Jussel emphasized the value of trauma-informed care and highlighted the creation of a trauma-informed care toolkit and workshops for the campus community. This proactive approach aimed at providing support, understanding, and resources for individuals impacted by trauma. The utilization of the campus cares framework facilitated the elevation of the frontline and mid-level staff's experience, fostering a culture of care across the university.

The Role of Meaningful Work in Mitigating Trauma

Jussel's discussion on the concept of the meaning of work and its potential to mitigate stress and trauma sheds light on the importance of cultivating a sense of purpose within the workforce. The ongoing research on this topic holds promising implications for the development of strategies to enhance the overall well-being of individuals in the workplace. Updates on Key Events in the NASPA World: The episode also provided informative updates on notable events within the NASPA world, including an upcoming national symposium and the 2024 NASPA virtual conference. This illustrates a commitment to fostering professional development and networking opportunities within the higher education community.

Closing Thoughts

The eye-opening conversation between Dr. Jill Creighton and Adam Jussel sheds light on the compelling work being done to address stress and trauma within university settings. It underscores the importance of implementing trauma-informed care frameworks and cultivating a supportive environment for faculty, staff, and students. As we navigate the complexities of the modern world, these insights serve as a beacon of hope, guiding us towards creating inclusive and empathetic communities within educational institutions.

In conclusion, the podcast episode featuring Adam Jussel serves as a valuable resource, offering actionable insights for those involved in community support and trauma-informed care within educational environments. By acknowledging the challenges and opportunities in this space, we can collectively work towards creating nurturing and resilient communities.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:
Welcome to student affairs voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton, she, her, hers, your essay voices from the field host. Adam, welcome to the show.

Adam Jussel [00:00:24]:
Hey. Hey. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:26]:
I'm glad to see you again. For our listeners, Adam and I, like many of our guests, have known each other in the field for what feels like Not a short time anymore.

Adam Jussel [00:00:36]:
Long time. Not a long time. Yeah. But we were very, very briefly colleagues at Washington State way back in the day. I think probably feels like a past life for both of us at this point.

Adam Jussel [00:00:45]:
Lots of gray hairs between, then and now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:48]:
Well, Adam, you're currently at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. We always love to start to get to know our guests by asking you, how did you get to your current seat?

Adam Jussel [00:00:56]:
Thank you for asking. A lot of people ask someone from the Pacific Northwest ends up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and it's totally by Both random set of circumstance and the profession. And so was it in the assistant dean of students role, director of student conduct at Washington State University, He was looking for a change, looking to move. I we joke that we wanted to be within at least a 20 minute drive of a Trader Joe's, and so looking for a little thing that was a little more Urban, public Washington, as you well know, not exactly the bustling city environment, so we wanted to try something new. And we're We're looking around the country really just to make a move, and UWM fit the bill both because of its access mission, and it is a research one institution. I have been in this role for a little over 4 years, and I am the dean of students and associate vice chancellor of student affairs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:46]:
So I like to Say that, you know, for me, civilization, as I learned in Pullman, was having an airport, a Target, and a Chipotle. I didn't know that about myself until I moved there. But as I was there, There was a Chipotle that opened right before the pandemic started, and then a Target came in, like, a year later. And they're getting a new airport, like, this month. So

Adam Jussel [00:02:06]:
Wonderful place. Still have lots of friends there. Met my now partner there, and and WSU is a great place to live and work for nearly 10 years. So, yeah, that Pullman, Washington. Go check it out if you haven't.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:17]:
Well, if you're not checking out the police, you should also check out Adam's research, and that's really what we're gonna be talking with Adam today. You spent a lot of the pandemic focusing on trauma informed care, and that's really a core ethos for what you're doing in the DOS role At University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, for those of you who wanna go dive a little deeper, you can check out the trauma informed toolkit on the Dean of Students website for University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. But, also, Adam, you have a new article out with some coauthors that I'm excited to dig into today. This article can be found in psychological trauma theory research practice and policy journal, and it's coauthored by Elaine Goldstein, Dimitri Topotaz, and Roger Brown. Title of the article is mental health among university employees during the COVID nineteen pandemic, the role of previous life trauma and current post traumatic stress symptoms, which is a very, very long title. I know a lot of our listeners are like, are we done talking about the pandemic? But I think this is actually a really important topic as we transition into a post pandemic era for higher education for our students and for the field. So why don't you go ahead and break down on what this means in really simple terms. Start.

Adam Jussel [00:03:26]:
Thanks for the opening. Was really blessed to work on this research and continuing to work on this research, with those great colleagues, Dimitri, University of Wisconsin Milwaukee. And during the early phases of the pandemic, We had, like, a lot of campuses, really robust emergency operation command tactical response To what our students, faculty, and staff were experiencing as it relates to the pandemic. So we had testing protocols, and we had isolation and quarantine Processes. We had testing centers and then ultimately vaccination clinics. All of these kind of very operational pieces, but one element that was missing was, It may seem cliche to say, but it was the heart. You know, what were the psychosocial emotional experiences of our students? And really what this research digs into is the staff and We attempted to frame this work as the campus is an ecosystem. We can't care for our students unless we are carried for ourselves.

Adam Jussel [00:04:23]:
At least that's That's the way I kind of approached it. So the impetus for this work and the trauma informed care approach was under the hypothesis that we know that these jobs were stressful pre pandemic. Anybody listening to the student affairs focused podcast has moments where they said, hey, gosh. This job is so stressful. I feel like I'm burnt out. I feel like I'm Front line interacting with some really heavy stuff. And that the pandemic, at least we debated that. So we wanted to dig into the anecdotal experiences that folks were telling us about and really see what the research bore out using primarily, at least initially survey data.

Adam Jussel [00:04:59]:
That was kind of the genesis of this of this project.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:02]:
I think you make some really important points. We saw the mass exodus from the field post pandemic, with the great resignation, it deeply affected all industries and certainly student affairs. And anecdotally, one of the things we heard is the field asks Too much of people for not enough compensation. That's a constant theme, in student affairs. And so tell us about how your research really shown a light on how our profession was reacting. And I think one of the things that I appreciate about your article as well is that it really broke it down by identifiable factors curves of who you are in the profession and how it affected you differently.

Adam Jussel [00:05:37]:
Yeah. So for folks that ultimately direct people to read the article, but just kind of a cliff notes is We had nearly 650 recipients, 636 participants in our survey. Those scaffold across divisions, departments, Anywhere in the institution, but was focused only on staff and faculty because we really wanted to hone in on that experience. And of those 636 participants, a large amount, 36%. We use a post traumatic stress disorder screening tool. It's a metric that we use. 36% produced a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen As it related to pandemic related impacts. And so that doesn't mean that they have post traumatic stress disorder.

Adam Jussel [00:06:14]:
It just simply means that a screening tool identified them. There would be follow-up from A clinician or someone in the field to identify that and hone further, but that number was staggering to us. 36% is a high number. What illuminated it further was that over 40% experienced extreme stress or near extreme stress, so that's not your stress and trauma are different things. And we use that data To paint a picture to campus leadership, to the community members of what has the experience been, what can we use data to inform practices and principles. And And it really was a catalyst to all of us on campus of we need to care for people that are serving our students. So there's some really interesting mitigating factors that we found as well and and other risk factors that I could dive into if it's interesting. But this first element was just identifying awareness around the problem.

Adam Jussel [00:07:06]:
What are the issues we're facing, and what are those challenges? I

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:08]:
think that would be great if you can talk more about what are those mitigating and aggravating factors for predictors of stress.

Adam Jussel [00:07:15]:
Yeah. And don't let me go down a rabbit hole on on this too much, but the risk factors so being a caregiver was a risk factor for a positive post traumatic stress disorder screen. Caregiver is broader than just parent or guardian. So we have staff and faculty that have, obviously, their parents or guardians, but we also have staff and faculty that Have a loved one in their home that they're they're caring for, so caregiving was a risk factor. Social isolation, all of us experienced Some level of social isolation in the pandemic. And one of the tragedies of the pandemic, and other folks have said this in various different ways, is that It attacks the number 1 mitigator for trauma experiencing trauma, which is a strong social support network. And not having that mechanism at place, I think a lot of us experience, at least it's born out in our data, that that social isolation was a really a key factor for exacerbating stress and possibly trauma. The other thing that, was interesting was The uncertainty of the future.

Adam Jussel [00:08:08]:
When we've provided some trauma informed care workshops to students, 1 student stood out to me and said, if I knew that this would end on a certain date, If I could if you could tell me 6 months from now, pandemic over, pick a date, December, whatever, the students said I could bear that. I could understand that there's a finish line. I could Stack goals around that, but the uncertainty and kind of the wave of uncertainty was an exacerbating factor and a risk factor.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:31]:
So I've been working in China for the last 2 years or so. And that was a real thing here because the pandemic controls and mechanisms that we all face were very different than what was happening in the west. And then our students and our faculty and staff were going through 3 to 7 COVID tests, a week depending on what was going on. And then, you know, there were points where our faculty and staff were locked on the campus with our students and didn't leave for 2 or 3 months. And that environment is the exact Same messaging where, you know, if we knew that, you know, we had to do this for 60 days, we could mark our time. We could set goals. We could mentally prepare for what that's like. But when that endpoint doesn't exist.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:11]:
It really creates a sense of dread and a little bit of doom.

Adam Jussel [00:09:15]:
Yeah. Your experience, I appreciate you sharing that is A ton of follow-up questions, of course, of of that experience as it relates to this. But one thing I heard there was, hey. The tools that we have at our disposal to mitigate this might diminished, which is I can't see family and friends. I can't go for a walk outside. Maybe there are instances where that was possible, maybe not, but I can't go to the gym. I can't you know, there's all kinds of things that were eliminated by virtue of the pandemic, and it sounds like not so dissimilar in in your experience, but probably very dissimilar very, December at the same time.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:49]:
Well, and to be fair, I was not one of the team members that was on campus in the lockdown, but my staff was. I mean, that's because I I wasn't here yet during kind of that deepest period of time. But I hear from a lot of them too that, you know, it was just things like, I would really love a piece of fresh fruit, And that would that simple piece of health care would have been really, really mitigating for them. So I'd love to hear more about what those mitigating factors were.

Adam Jussel [00:10:14]:
Thanks for sharing that and asking. So the mitigating factors I already named one was the strong social support network. On the network of care, feeling like there are places and People you can turn to for help and support that you're not alone. Really big factors when someone is experiencing trauma or stress. Time outside, So being outside in nature and time with pets was significant. I would say time outside with pets is probably doubly good, but those were some massive Mitigating factors at least at a high level, and then you can dive in further in the research and literature and being physically active, having a purpose in life, Which really connects to the additional research we're doing currently, which is just having a meaningful experience in your work environment, What we call making meaning, does that is that a mitigator to stress and trauma? There's all kinds of research on the value of having a vision and a purpose, An identity bigger than yourself, and we're trying to connect it to the trauma field a little bit. And we're using a mixed method study to do that, and it's It's really fascinating what people are saying in our focus groups, and that's exciting work that I can talk about as well if you'd like me to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:18]:
Someone asked a question about your research design, especially for any of our listeners who are pursuing their own Dr.ates. This is a time where you're trying to measure trauma and stress where the pandemic was not the only trauma and stressor serve for a US audience. It was a a wild time to be a person in the United States from

Adam Jussel [00:11:34]:
Yes. Yep.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:36]:
Regardless of where you are on Any particular political spectrum, that was a wild time. It kinda still is a wild time. I just I don't feel it as much because I'm not there on a daily basis right now. But how did you tease apart as researchers the difference between the impact from COVID nineteen and the other influencing factors in the world?

Adam Jussel [00:11:55]:
Yeah. In the study, we know that the political and civic strife that was being experienced by a lot of folks in the United States, regardless of what political affiliation that a person had actually were exacerbating factors as it related to trauma and stresses really in the pandemic. And the way that we separated out in the in the studies, we actually, you know, Segmented out of the questions, and then we're very specific about the questions that we asked that were related to the pandemic versus the questions we had about Ancillary things, including that civic and political strike. But we do note in there that other factors were definitely at play, and and we know this just from our personal experiences that You can't really isolate an individual and say, well, what about this is one thing that is stressor? We we are meaning making machines that come in, and we bring our holistic experience. And reflected in our data too is that folks that had other health and financial stressors, other you know, I already said financial stressors, but That there were certain instances that no combination of mitigating factors could protect them against the negative implications of the pandemic, Which means that sometimes for the individuals that participated in the study, it was just too much, and there was nothing that they could have done without intense professional care. I can't. And this is something we're very careful about. I could tell someone to go walk their dog 6,000 times, and if they have experienced a level of stress and potentially trauma, though, those Tools, at least in our data, weren't weren't helpful.

Adam Jussel [00:13:18]:
So, yes, it's good to acknowledge the context in which we participated in the study.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:13:22]:
Well, and sometimes not just Not helpful to suggest some of these more surface level components of care, but also could be seen as Literally uncaring as a leader of an organization or not just seen as, but could be literally uncaring because there's a big difference between, you know, the collective stress and collective trauma we were all going through that was abnormal from our daily lives compared with people that already had their plates very, very full. And then at that Age old meme where it's like, oh, you're experiencing a difficult work environment? Well, let's have a pizza party. That's not what we need to solve of some of these big issues. And one of the things that I appreciate about your work, as I mentioned, is that this kind of all resulted from a practice perspective in a trauma informed toolkit. So let's talk about that a little bit because I know that's really geared towards a lot of student work, but it applies deeply to your faculty and staff populations as well. So how did you operationalize the findings of the study to try to create more community care.

Adam Jussel [00:14:23]:
One of the cool parts about participating in this, and I this is the 1st article that I've ever been. For those who don't know, I have a JD. You do not have to produce Research as part of your JD. Some people do. So it's the 1st academic study I've been I've been a part of, which was really exciting. And one thing that I really, with My colleagues tried to focus on is we can't wait till this is published to produce and care for our campus community because as You know publishing takes a long time, so the trauma informed care toolkit and related workshops were created actually prior to us Publishing anything and actually diving into our research because the trauma informed care principles, at least as we saw it, were somewhat evergreen. There's things that we could do to make that a reality. And then once we published our research, we use that to inform our workshops and continue to hone those toolkits.

Adam Jussel [00:15:13]:
So the real bellwether or the real, I would say, the workshops themselves were the 1st program we really rolled out, and those were geared towards Faculty and staff. They were trying to do 2 different things. They were first trying to say, here's our students' experience, and here's how you care for those students. And, also, what we realized midstream is, oh, this is cathartic for the faculty and staff that are coming into this face as well because they're feeling validated by their experience. They're feeling empowered, and they're feeling like they're connected to other people. This is this kind of shared social experience. And teams were totally volunteer. We just put them in, like, newsletters and said, hey, folks.

Adam Jussel [00:15:50]:
If you're interested in this and in the year and a half that we launched, From when we launched there, when we concluded them, we did over a 150 of these across campus. And for someone that does mandatory training of folks Here on our campus, doing a 150 workshops is intense over a year and a half, but it also reflected the kind of scope and scale of the problem because I'm getting that level of interest in a voluntary program that's not being forced upon anybody. We had to chase that. There was something there. And the toolkits themselves were really about building capacity across campus understanding that I'm not an expert on the classroom dynamics in a faculty member's classroom, but I can give the the parameters Or how would you make your classroom trauma informed? And I hesitate to even say trauma informed because that's somewhat cliche at this point in time, and I think it's got some it might carry some baggage for folks. Oh, really, what it is is how do I create a classroom that's reciprocal and empowering and caring? So those toolkits are we're actually in another revision of them right now, but those toolkits in the workshop are based in Principles that even if we didn't have a pandemic would be good exercises and practices for folks in their workplace and that and the classroom.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:57]:
Let's define trauma informed in this case. As you mentioned, it is kind of a buzzword in higher education at this point, and, some people operationalize it differently. How are you using the term?

Adam Jussel [00:17:08]:
Definition of trauma that we use is adopted by the Substance Abuse Mental Health Services association. And it's an event or series events that is experienced by an individual as physically or emotionally harmful or life Threatening with lasting adverse effects on the individual's functioning and mental, physical, social, emotional, or spiritual well-being. And the reason we like this definition is that it's it's more holistic than other definitions offered. It it talks about the entirety of the person's experience, But it also distinguishes between physical trauma, so someone that is experiencing physical harm or witnessing physical harm versus The impacts of something that may be systemic and long term like the pandemic. So there's other definitions of trauma that really focus on An acute single incident like a type one trauma. This broader definition from SAMHSA is broader and would take into context things that just happen over time, little cuts that happen over time. So trauma informed care takes that into consideration and asks the question, what do we how do we frame our workplace and our classroom In a way that acknowledges that someone may be experiencing in that space a significant amount of trauma or stress.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:19]:
And looking at all of this, You've gone through the research process. You've gone through the workshop process. You're now in revisions. What's the pro tip that you can provide. What's the nugget for SA pros who are listening and going, oh, my campus needs this, or especially The other SSAOs going, how do I adopt this and and make it meaningful for my campus?

Adam Jussel [00:18:40]:
1st, I would say the pro tip is Understand that you're seen and that this work is valuable in the sense that it lets folks know that, hey. These jobs are challenging. Anybody in the field that is aware of how they experience the pandemic and the work that they were doing, that this highlights that and actually paints a picture that allows for a certain level of advocacy on your campus. So I think Pointing to it and saying, hey. And I know there's a bunch of data now that reflects this, but this isn't just my feelings. This is actually an experience that is validated by by research. That's my I guess, more of an academic response. My gut response is any parts of this work can be applied to any campus.

Adam Jussel [00:19:20]:
And one thing that we've really learned, the framework we've applied is this campus cares framework, which is a fancy term for a program here on campus that's Grassroots, it's voluntary, but it is holistic. So instead of thinking about how do we just care for the students, how How do we make sure they have adequate resources, that they have counseling, that they have food pantry, that they have case management, that they have an emergency grant? This takes into consideration the first thing I said at the beginning, which is we can't do those things well unless we are part of that ecosystem. System. And so this campus CARES work has students, faculty, and staff from across campus. It's not a top down directive, so it's not something that we got From senior leadership that would just kind of just groundswell during the pandemic. It's that heart I was telling you about. And so my nugget here is that find the people on your campus, Students, faculty, and staff that embody this type of work, this type of care, put them in a room together and say, what does it mean to care for our campus, How do we do that? And it might mean something different to y'all, but it would likely mean something different to y'all than it does to us. But we did that in the early stages of this campus Cares framework.

Adam Jussel [00:20:25]:
We got a bunch of people in the room, and they said, what does it mean to be empathetic and caring in the face of a global pandemic? And all of the tools that we got out of it, the tool kits And the the workshops and the meditation spaces that we have on campus and the communications and storytelling are all grounded in that empathy, Empowerment and care, and I think that can be applied anywhere.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:46]:
How has all of this effort changed your campus?

Adam Jussel [00:20:49]:
I can speak, and, obviously, I'm biased here, but I think it has elevated the experience of folks that would be considered either frontline or mid level staff to campus leadership in the community. So not to say that anybody had negative opinions of the campus prior to The pandemic. But I don't think they were generally aware of the level of stress that folks were experiencing in the pandemic and had experienced prior to the For me, personally, it has connected me directly, and I think connected everybody within the Campus Cares group to the extent that I can speak for all of them with those people that genuinely care about UWM and its students. And when you put that type of energy into a space, I think it catalyzes a lot of change and good, but also just makes me feel personally like I enjoy going to parts of work that I'm doing that because it's a bunch of people that are on the same team, so to speak. So I think it's changed, and we are really focused now on how do we keep this momentum going? How do we now that we're in this late in stages of the pandemic, and how do we scale this culture of care across campus. So that's the tougher problem, and I don't actually think we ever accomplished that. I think that's a thing that we will continue to do forever, but we've had some great conversations about what that actually means while we're doing this other practical work.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:05]:
The scaling question is always interesting when you're at such a large institution. Right? When you're at a small liberal arts university, the scaling question is as much simpler just because there are physically less people. But the common core of an institution, like in our one size, that's a very, very different beast.

Adam Jussel [00:22:22]:
Yeah. One of the things that I value professionally is just kind of meeting the hard challenges of doing it with kind of an open mind and curiosity, and This has definitely opened my aperture quite a bit on how we can do that and how big the issues are, and that is not just a checkbox. You can't just flip a giant switch somewhere and say, okay. Now we're good. So this will be something that will continue on, I think, hopefully, for a good long while here at UWM and at other places.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:46]:
I'm gonna shift gears with you just a moment because we are in our bonus episode in between seasons 9 and 10, both of which are on the theme of transitions. So So I just briefly wanna touch on how does someone go from obtaining a law degree to being in student affairs full time?

Adam Jussel [00:23:01]:
It's a common question that I get. And the real answer is is that I cut my teeth in university housing. I was an RA for 3 years in college. And when I was leaving college and I decided to go to law school. I actually picked my law school, Seattle University, in part because I was fortunate To have the opportunity to work in housing, university housing while I was in law school, which on its face for anybody that's gone to law school, it's how do you go to law school and work in a residence all at the same time. I actually think it helped me quite a bit because, one, it created so much more structure around my life. And 2, it was people outside of the law school that I connected with, and I'm still colleagues and friends with. They really didn't care what I was doing in the law school.

Adam Jussel [00:23:43]:
They cared about me as a human, and So remove kind of that that stressor. They were great friends and kind of a mitigator distress. And when I left law school, I had this existential crisis of, I'm still liking this housing stuff. I'm still learning a lot, and I went and took the bar, and I thought, well, I guess I go practice law now. Right? I I worked at a firm for a while, and then I actually made the transition to the attorney general's office, which was represented all the institutions of higher education in the state of Washington and was an assistant attorney general actually representing Washington State University. I did that for a couple years, and I was still having that kind of, I wanna be on the other side. I Wanna be in the administration. The kind of natural inroad for a lot of people at that point in time with a JD was into the conduct space.

Adam Jussel [00:24:26]:
So I made the big move over the administration and did student conduct for what feels like an eternity, but it was 7, 8 years over at WSU and then since made this transition over here, and and I couldn't be more. I tell this to people all the time, and maybe it's my experience my previous experience is that while these jobs are stressful and They're very challenging, and I'm faced with challenges every day. The fact that I get to work on a college campus still is like I, like, pinch myself. Just the fact that I could walk onto our mall in the middle of a busy weekday and just be amongst 18, 19, 20 year olds and UWM students. It's just a it's a blessing. So that's how I made that transition. It's a long story, but I'm fortunate to have all those opportunities and people nudging me to do that along the way.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:08]:
Thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate the complexity of that, but also the simplicity of I was an RA first. That seems to be such, you know, a common student affairs journey.

Adam Jussel [00:25:17]:
I like to tell folks, I think once you do the ResLifer thing, you're a ResLifer at heart for a long time, and I don't think I've ever turned away from that. So that's my origin story as it were.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:27]:
Is there anything else that you wanna share with our listeners?

Adam Jussel [00:25:30]:
I know I mentioned earlier the the the concept of meaning of work and and potentially how That could be a mitigator to, stress and and perhaps trauma. And really wanna note that our focus groups that we did in the spring, we did 4 of them. They were meant to expand on the initial survey instrument I noted earlier, building on that quantitative research And now using qualitative research in a mixed method study and sequentially and hopefully explanatory, we wanted to determine what factors and processes Would promote increased meaning of work, noting that the positive effects we saw through that could have helped with stress. There's a bevy of research out there about the positive impacts of having a a vision or a larger mission, but also want to explore how could that potentially decrease stress or at least be a protective factor. What we've just anecdotally, what we've seen so far is that the the work is hard and people really identify with that, and I've explained the statistics that are relating to that. But when it's Directly connected to a larger purpose or mission or community, it could be more motivating and, in fact, meaningful. And What we've also found is that the focus on the well-being of others, which is a core element of the campus cares initiative I mentioned, that can bring satisfaction in and out of work. And maybe This isn't particularly novel, but can actually reduce stress for folks as having that broader connection and that broader sense of purpose.

Adam Jussel [00:26:55]:
So I think that we'd be remiss without sharing that there is additional research being done there and and hopefully continue to imbue that work Within the campus cares initiative that we have on campus.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:06]:
It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]:
Thanks, Jill. Really excited to be back again in the NASPA world, and there's a lot happening in NASPA. The NASPA annual conference is coming up March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington, and I hope that you will be able to join us. If you are going to join us, I know that we've mentioned this before, but we'll be going around asking questions, looking for your answers to have your voice be a part of a future episode. So watch out for me with my recorder or Jill with her recorder, and we'll be looking to capture your voice. At the NASPA annual conference, the opening and closing keynote speakers have just been announced recently. Dr. Sian Proctor and Alejandra Campa Verdi will be joining as opening and keynote speakers. The opening keynote is Dr. Sion Proctor Who is a geoscientist, explorer, space artist, and astronaut.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:08]:
Dr. Sian Proctor is a geoscience professor at the Maricopa Community Colleges, An Afrofuturism artist and an astronaut. She is the chief inspiration astronaut of Space to Inspire and founder of the Procter Foundation For Art and Science. She was the mission pilot for SpaceX inspiration for the first all civilian Orbital mission. And our closing keynote speaker is Alejandra Campaverde. Alejandra Campaverde is a nationally recognized women's Health advocate, best selling author, founder, producer, and former White House aid to president Obama. Alejandra's memoir, First Gen, Examines the emotional toll of social mobility on first and only for those who are first generation in their families to cross a threshold. On February 2, 2024, on Zoom will be the 7th annual 1st generation graduate student symposium. Join the Boston University Newberry Center, Duke University first generation graduate student network, and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Carolina grad students grad student firsts, along with our cooperating sponsor, the Center For First Generation Student Success, For our 7th annual symposium for graduate and professional students on February 2, 2024.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:28]:
This national symposium is open to any student who identifies as a 1st generation graduate or professional student and is studying any discipline. The keynote speaker for this event is Angela Bautista, A proud 1st generation student learner, educator, speaker, facilitator, coach, and diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging consultant. There's There's also gonna be a number of opportunities for you to network with other 1st generation graduate and professional students at institutions across the country, workshop sessions, and more. The event is on February 2nd and runs from from 1 EST to 5 PM EST. From June 23rd to 26 in Portland, Oregon Will be the 2024 NASPA m Ben Hogan Small Colleges and Universities Institute. This event is hosted on a biannual basis by By NASPA's Small Colleges and Universities division, the NASPA M. Ben Hogan Small Colleges and University Institute is a 4 day residential program During which vice presidents for student affairs and the equivalent and other senior level administrators engage in discussion and reflection about critical issues in student affairs and examine effective and innovative programs. Participation in this institute is limited to the highest Ranking student affairs officer on campus and other senior level administrators who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and have substantial responsibility for divisional leadership.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:52]:
The registration fee for this program includes housing and most meals and is an amazing experience To bring you together with other small colleges and university leaders. Find out more on the NASPA website. I mentioned the NASPA NASPA annual conference coming up In March, if you are unable to join the NASPA conference, we also have another great opportunity, which is the 2024 virtual conference, which will happen on April 2nd through 5, 2024. The 2024 NASPA virtual Conference is a 4 day interactive educational experience for student affairs professionals and partners where we will engage in high quality content centered around individual and team growth. There will be multiple educational sessions, including 8 extended learning workshops. Teams can participate in their personal and professional development through the live event and on demand. The best part of this is that if you register, All sessions will be available on demand for 365 days. So it's a great opportunity for your teams at your institutions to be able to access professional development over a long period.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:04]:
If you haven't checked this out yet, I highly encourage you to go to the NASPA website to check it out, Learn more and find out how you can be involved with your team at your own institution. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within in the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening And allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And For all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with the knowledge community, giving back within one of the the centers We're at the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself Where do you fit? Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you To be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey. I see myself In that knowledge community, I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, Your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:40]:
Chris, thank you so much for this bonus NASPA world segment. We've got a lot coming up. I know annual conference is just around the corner at this point in time. We hope to see a lot of you in Seattle. Adam, we are now at our lightning round. I have 7 questions for you in 90 seconds. You ready to go?

Adam Jussel [00:33:57]:
Okay. Hippie, let's do it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:59]:
Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Adam Jussel [00:34:03]:
Jitterbug.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:04]:
Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

Adam Jussel [00:34:07]:
A pilot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:08]:
Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Adam Jussel [00:34:12]:
Ken Wayne. He He was a professor at Seattle University.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:14]:
Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Adam Jussel [00:34:17]:
Reframing campus conflict.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:19]:
Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Adam Jussel [00:34:22]:
We rewatched parks and rec the entirety of it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:25]:
Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Adam Jussel [00:34:29]:
On chair expert.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:30]:
And finally, number 7, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Adam Jussel [00:34:34]:
Thanks, Jill, for the great question and for the opportunity to offer some shout outs. Obviously, I'm super grateful for all the people that have supported and influenced me along the way and try to share that gratitude when I can. Starting just With my time at Cal Lutheran and my 1st supervisors in residence life, Sally Lawrenson and Nate Fall, and then Danielle Hess And Adam Malcolm at the AG's office at WSU just taking a chance on me and allowing for that big transition that I noted earlier. And then, of course, my team at at UWM, including Becky Career, Abby Meadow, Ben Minogue, and Sarah Edmonson, even though Sarah has left us for another institution. Just super grateful for team here could not do it without them. And then, obviously, my professional career started at WSU, and I would be remiss without giving a shout out to them, including Karen Fisher, Melinda Husky, Karen Metzner, and Christina McGillfry, and just the entire Dida students team over there. I know they're doing great work. And then finally, just 2 mentors, Bill Stackman and Carrie Petter who answer all my weird questions every once in a while about my own growth in the career, and It's super helpful and just, again, very grateful for all these folks.

Adam Jussel [00:35:45]:
So shout outs to everybody.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:46]:
Well, Adam, it's been a pleasure to reconnect with you today. If others would like to connect with you after the show. How can they find you?

Adam Jussel [00:35:52]:
You can email me, which is just jussell@uwm.edu, or my Instagram account is at Dean Dob Jessel.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:59]:
Adam, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Adam Jussel [00:36:02]:
Thank you, Jill. Take care, everybody.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]:
This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at essay voices at naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and Please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill l Creighton., That's me. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis. Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this week's episode of SA Voices From the Field, we bring you Dr. Lori White, the 21st president of DePauw University, to share her inspiring journey and valuable insights into higher education leadership. From her early years in student affairs to her groundbreaking role as a college president, Dr. White's story offers a roadmap for aspiring leaders and underscores the importance of mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership.

The Path to Presidency

Dr. White's journey to the presidency of DePauw University began with her undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, where she discovered her passion for student affairs at the University of California Irvine. This passion led her to a 40-year career in higher education, marked by a progression through various roles in student affairs and prolific authorship. Her commitment to promoting student access, equity, and success later propelled her to the presidency of DePauw University, where she saw an opportunity to shape university policies and influence.

The Role of Mentors

One key aspect of Dr. White's journey is the pivotal role of mentors in guiding her leadership path. Encouraged by mentors and colleagues to consider applying for a presidency, she was eventually nominated for the position by a fellow woman president. This underscores the profound impact of mentorship in shaping the careers of aspiring leaders and the importance of building a supportive network within the higher education community.

The Transition and Challenges

Stepping into the role of president amidst the COVID-19 pandemic presented unique challenges for Dr. White. She emphasized the need for immediate decision-making and virtual relationship-building, highlighting the dynamic nature of leadership in higher education and the adaptability required to navigate unforeseen obstacles.

Empowering Student Affairs Professionals

Dr. White's emphasis on the skills and experiences gained in student affairs sheds light on the breadth of responsibilities, ranging from working with academic affairs to managing business aspects, dealing with crises, engaging with alumni, and contributing to scholarly work and research. This insight demystifies the day-to-day responsibilities of a college president and underscores the scholarly aspects of student affairs professionals.

Involving Stakeholders in Decision-Making

Dr. White's advocacy for involving professionals at all levels in strategic planning underscores the importance of empowering emerging professionals to offer ideas and participate in decision-making processes. Additionally, her dedication to ensuring that student voices are heard through meaningful engagement with the student body president reflects a commitment to student-centered leadership and the value of seeking input from all stakeholders.

NASPA Opportunities

The episode also featured valuable updates and opportunities at the upcoming NASPA 2024 conference, including pre-conference events tailored for community college professionals, international student services practitioners, and undergraduate students. The conference aims to support the development of student affairs professionals and offers various short courses on relevant topics.

Dr. Lori White's insights from her remarkable journey to the college presidency offer valuable lessons for leaders, emerging professionals, and students alike. Her emphasis on mentorship, strategic decision-making, and student-centered leadership serves as a guiding beacon for those navigating the complex landscape of higher education. Aspiring leaders can draw inspiration from Dr. White's journey, recognizing the transformative power of mentorship and the profound impact of inclusive, student-focused leadership in shaping the future of higher education.

By embracing the principles and insights shared by Dr. White, the next generation of leaders can continue to drive positive change and progress within the realm of student affairs and higher education.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season 9 on transitions in student affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA, And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She, her, hers, your SA voices from the field host. Welcome back to another episode of SA Voices from the Field. This is our season finale of season 9 on transitions in student affairs, and I cannot think of a better human being to help us close out this season than Dr. Lori S. White. Dr. White was appointed the 21st president of DePauw University on March 4, 2020, and began her term on July 1, 2020. Prior, she was the vice chancellor for student affairs and a professor of practice at Washington UNiversity in Saint Louis. At DePauw, she also holds the rank of professor of education, and she's the 1st woman and the first person of color to serve as DePauw's president.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:58]:

Dr. White has spent 40 years working in higher education. Prior to her arrival at Washington university. She served as the VP for student affairs and clinical professor of education at Southern Methodist University and also held posts at the University of Southern California, Stanford, Georgetown, San Diego State, and the University of California, Irvine. Active nationally in several higher education organizations, Since Dr. White has served on the board of directors for the Association For Sustainability in Higher Education and for NASPA's Foundation from team to 2017. In 2009, she was named a pillar of the profession by NASPA. She's currently serving on the Association of Governing Boards Council of Presidents and is a member of the Bipartisan and Policy Center's academic leaders task force on campus free expression. Dr. White is one of 5 founding college presidents of the liberal arts colleges racial equity leadership alliance. Dr. White's areas of emphasis in research and teaching include the student experience in higher ed and the preparation of mentorship for new mid-level and aspiring senior student affairs professionals.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:55]:

She's the author of a number of articles and book chapters and has presented widely at professional meetings, including NASPA. Her most recent publications appear in a coedited volume called Transformational Encounters, shaping diverse college and university leaders, and another titled Keep Calm and Call the Dean of Students, a guide to understanding the many facets of the Dean of Students' role. Born and raised in San Francisco, Dr. White earned her undergraduate degree in psychology and English from the University of California, Berkeley and a Ph.D. from Stanford University in administration and policy analysis with emphasis on higher education. She also participated in Harvard University's management leadership in education program. Dr. White and her husband, Anthony Tillman, are both career educators with a deep passion and commitment to student access, equity, and success. Lori, we are so excited to have you on SA Voices today.

Dr. Lori White [00:02:41]:

So excited, Jill. Thank you for the invitation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:02:44]:

And you've been such a staple of the student affairs profession, a stalwart, or if you will, having been a NASPA board chair, a pillar of the profession, and you've actually kind of left the field, kind of not left the field after many, many years, currently sitting in the seat as president at DePauw University, and we love to start all of our interviews by asking our guests, how did you get to your current seat.

Dr. Lori White [00:03:07]:

I appreciate you saying that I left the field of student affairs. I don't think anyone really ever leaves the field of student affairs, But I did transition to becoming the President of DePauw University in 2020. And I never imagined that I would be a college president, Jill. And part of the reason, I think, is that it's hard to imagine what you don't see. I identify as an African American, a cisgender female, and there are not that many females who are presidents of colleges and universities. There are not that many African Americans that are Presidents of colleges and universities, and so you can deduce from that there are not that many African American females that are Presidents of colleges and universities.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:52]:

No kidding. Not enough people who are marginalized or from marginalized backgrounds in those seats.

Dr. Lori White [00:03:56]:

I was going to say that it really took mentors who encouraged me to think beyond what I had been doing, and I loved being a Vice President for student affairs and would have been happy to retire as a vice president for student affairs. But as you and I know, sometimes those who mentor us, encourage us to think beyond what we're doing currently and aspire to do something else.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:22]:

That's for sure, especially our best mentors. Now, Lori, you had a prolific career up through the vice presidency of student affairs. Would you mind taking us through your journey from a new professional to VPSA?

Dr. Lori White [00:04:32]:

Sure. I did my undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, and the reason that I'm starting there is I'm now president of a liberal arts college. And I think if I had known that liberal arts colleges existed, that would have been a better fit for me. UC Berkeley gave me a great academic education, but I was lost in a sea of 30,000-plus students, And I never did any of the things that we always advise our students to do. Right? I never went to a faculty member's office hours. I didn't connect with all of the resources that I now know were available to me at UC Berkeley. And so when I graduated With my degree in English and psychology, I really wasn't sure what I was going to do. And it was my dad, who is a professor at the University of California, Irvine, who suggested that I think about working on a college campus.

Dr. Lori White [00:05:27]:

So perhaps unlike you, Jill, or folks in the generation that followed me, Who, you know, you might have been an orientation leader, or you worked in student activities, and then somebody taps you on the shoulder and said, you can do this for the rest of your life. I didn't have that experience, but it was my dad who said, try this out. I think this will be a great fit for what I know about what you love. And sure enough, I got my 1st job at the University of California Irvine. I fell in love with student affairs once I discovered who those people were, And I saw the work that they were doing to mentor, support, and advise students. And I knew if I'd had somebody like that working with me when I was an undergraduate, my experience would have been different. And so, you know, 40-something years later, I'm still working in higher education, 10 years at UC Irvine, doing a number of things. Probably most impactful was being the director of the cross-cultural center at UC Irvine, One of the very first cross-cultural, multicultural centers in the state, probably in the country.

Dr. Lori White [00:06:34]:

After that, I went back to graduate school. I quit my full-time job, made the best decision ever in my life, became a full-time graduate student, and got my Ph.D. at Stanford University. And then after that, I've done what, most of my colleagues have done, started moving my way up the student affairs ladder, worked at Georgetown University, At San Diego State University, back at Stanford, also at the University of Southern California, got my 1st vice President's position at Southern Methodist University. I was the VP there for eight years, and then I was the vice president or vice chancellor for student affairs at Washington University in Saint Louis for five years before I became president of DePauw.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:18]:

And you're also quite a prolific author. So, if you've Probably read Lori's work, maybe without knowing it, but I think the highlight for me is, keep calm and call the dean of students. That's a critical one.

Dr. Lori White [00:07:29]:

Yes. I love the title. Love the title.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:32]:

Absolutely. Lori, when you and I ran into each other, I think it was Boston for NASPA this last go around. While we were standing there together, I asked you if you love being a President compared to being a VPSA. And I recall you saying to me, it stuck with me: I loved being a VPSA, but I feel called to do the work of being the President. Can you talk to us about that transition from being the person leading the student affairs experience, which is really the, you know, the head experience officer for a university, to be in that position of figurehead, fundraiser, policymaker, influencer?

Dr. Lori White [00:08:12]:

The first question you asked me was, Why did I decide to be a college president?

Dr. Lori White [00:08:19]:

And so it aligns with my response to your Question. And you have a great memory because that's exactly what I said. I love being a vice president for student affairs and feel called to serve as a college president. When I visited DePauw University, I was discerning whether I would say yes if I got the job offer. I was in this space on my campus where the portraits of all of the previous presidents hang. I am president number 21. And as I looked around that room, and I saw the portraits of Presidents 1 through 20, none of whom looked like me, Literally, a voice from above said, they're gonna offer you that job. And when they do, you need to say yes.

Dr. Lori White [00:09:04]:

It's not about you, Lori. It's what you represent for future generations. Future generations need to know that it's possible for somebody who looks like you to be president of DePauw University. And so that is why I felt called to serve. I also realized within my 1st couple of days on the job that even though, as I tell people, I was scared to death on my 1st day of the overwhelming responsibility of being a college president, I sometimes walk out of my office, and I look around, and I think to myself, o m g. I'm responsible for all of this. Right? So, you know, every decision that I make, impacts a student and their experience, impacts our faculty, impacts our employees, impacts our alumni, and sometimes that's an overwhelming responsibility. However, I'm really driven by how important it is for us every day To make sure that our colleges and universities are doing their best to educate students and to make sure that every student that we admit and who agrees to join our wonderful community is able to realize their hopes and their dreams.

Dr. Lori White [00:10:14]:

And it was my background in student affairs That really, I think, has enabled me to be a successful President.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:10:21]:

I think the most interesting part of being a college president out of the student affairs pathway is that it's still a fairly new transition. Most college presidents come out of that provost space. Some are, you know, business officers at the VP level. But I'm aware of very few VPSAs who've really gone on to that. I'll shout out a few off the top of my head. Dr. Frank Sanchez, who mentored me when I was at CU Denver, and Dr. Robin Holmes Sullivan out at Reed University. She came out of that VPSA ship not that long ago. Then, Dr. Rod Kelly, who also came out of student affairs vice presidency and is now, I believe, the University of Portland. So, the student affairs vice presidency is now, I believe, at the University of Portland. So it's really exciting to see it happening, but I also don't know that student affairs professionals really aspire to that direction. I feel like the VPSA role is the top of that aspirational ladder for a lot of people, and popping the top to the presidency doesn't really feel like it's been on the table or been realistic. Tell us about how you made that realistic for yourself and what made you even wanna apply.

Dr. Lori White [00:11:17]:

Sure. And thanks for the list of those folks, all great friends of mine. We all grew up together in student affairs. I would also add John Hoffman to that list.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:27]:

Yeah. Very new as well.

Dr. Lori White [00:11:29]:

Right. Exactly. Several others are now getting opportunities because I think Boards are realizing the breadth of skills that student affairs professionals bring to the job. So let's see what led me to decide I wanted to put my baby toe in the water to actually apply for a presidency. I mentioned earlier that I had mentors who were encouraging me to think about a presidency, including my boss at WashU, who was the provost at the time and was the previous chancellor at the University of North Carolina. I also remember I had given a speech for NASPA, And after I left the stage, Mike Sagawa, who is also one of my longtime mentors, said to me, Lori, you just need to be a college president. And there were other voices, you know, in the field and otherwise, who were encouraging me to move forward. I happened to be on a panel with 2 other women, both of whom were college presidents.

Dr. Lori White [00:12:33]:

Following that panel discussion, the call came out for the presidency of DePauw, And one of those women nominated me for the job. I don't know if I hadn't received the nomination if I would've thought about applying for the position. But once the search firm reached out to me and I understood I'd been nominated by a woman who was a president, I thought to myself, I'm hearing these voices. Another President nominated me. You know, what's the worst that can happen to me? I always say to folks that when you apply for those jobs, the worst that can happen is you lose your time and your ego. Right? Because, you know, your time just in terms of, the time it takes to prepare the materials and your ego if you ultimately don't get the job. Right? And so I tell people, Jill, that I applied for the job for practice. I thought to myself, let me prepare my materials.

Dr. Lori White [00:13:26]:

Let me see what kind of feedback I get. And then, when I'm ready, I will know what I need to work on for me to be ready for that next step. I never imagined I was actually going to get the job, which I think speaks to women. And often, people of color undervalue and underestimate the skills that we have. Right? So, you know, somebody Might see a job description, and let's say there are ten things that are required. And I would say, and most women would say, and many people of color would say, well, I only have 9 out of the 10. So until I get all 10, I'm not applying. Someone else would say, oh, I've got 3 of those things. Oh, yeah.

Dr. Lori White [00:14:07]:

I'm going for, and so, you know, I was in that group of folks thinking that I didn't have enough experience or because I wasn't an academic, Etcetera. And so, as I said, I never imagined I would get the job. But I learned, Jill, that those of us who come up through Student affairs have mad skills. Right? We, first of all, are one of the few people on the president's cabinet who have to look at the entire university. Right? Because in our roles, we work with academic affairs. We obviously, you know, work with all the areas of student affairs. Most of us run some level of business because we're running auxiliaries, residence halls, Bookstores, and student unions. We have to deal with campus crises.

Dr. Lori White [00:14:54]:

Often, we are raising money and if we're not raising money. We are interacting with our alumni and others who, because of their experiences Inside and outside of the classroom, are more interested then in giving back to the university, and we deal with oftentimes complicated divisions and organizations. And so, I didn't really understand how all of that would play into Being a college president, but as I went through the interview process, I was able to articulate all of the work that I had done on behalf of the university In order for the board to see me in that role as their president.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:36]:

I want everyone to rewind, like, 1 minute and listen to Lori Rattle off that list again because she just helped you rewrite your cover letter right there.

Dr. Lori White [00:15:47]:

That's wonderful. That's exactly it. Right? We also teach and write and do research. And so for those who believe that only a pure academic can be a college president, Again, in student affairs, most of us are active scholar-practitioners.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:02]:

Absolutely. It's kind of a wild thing to think about about a career in higher education. And I think that many of my colleagues still couldn't really tell you what a president does on a day-to-day basis. I'm wondering if you can demystify that a little bit.

Dr. Lori White [00:16:16]:

I would love to know the answer to that myself. Right? What do we do on a daily basis? The most important part of the job of a president is this. Number one is working with your board, and that's probably something that most folks Looking outside of the presidency don't realize, so I spend a lot of time working with my board, particularly at a Private university, my board or my chief fundraisers. And so making sure that those individuals that are on my board, Who are volunteering on behalf of the university, are in the know about what's happening on campus, are excited such that they want to be able to continue To contribute their treasures, and can advise me about all of the complicated pieces of running, you know, a multimillion-dollar company. And so spend a lot of time working with the board. Spend a lot of time on fundraising because, again, as a private independent college, we're not getting any money from the state. And so lots of presidents like me were on the road a lot, out there, interacting with our alumni and Friends, sharing the good news about what's happening on campus, and so I spend a lot of time, particularly once we got out of the pandemic, Spend a lot of time out on the road. Also spend time supporting my vice president.

Dr. Lori White [00:17:41]:

So, you know, I went from a vice president To now having a number of vice presidents who are working for me, and I wanna make sure that my vice presidents have what it is that they need In order to effectively run their divisions on campus. And then probably, lastly, and most importantly, again, for a small college we spend 247 every day talking about admissions. Because, you know, I'm unable to deliver a class of students, we can't pay our bills. And so we spend a lot of time strategically thinking about What it is that we need to do to present ourselves to this really competitive market of prospective students such that they will be excited About applying for DePauw and excited about accepting our offer of admission. So those are probably the high-level things that I do, and then, of course, all of us Have all the administrative work that comes with any high-level job that you might have.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:42]:

I think it's really important for listeners to hear the president has a boss, but it's not a single boss. It's a group of people.

Dr. Lori White [00:18:48]:

It's a group of bosses. Right.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]:

Group of bosses. Lori, can you talk about the transition mindset that you had to go through and make for yourself from the day that you took off your vice president of student affairs hat and put on your president hat.

Dr. Lori White [00:19:00]:

I had an unusual entry into the job because remember, I was selected as DePauw's president in March of 2020. So I came to campus the 1st week of March for all of the hoopla of the announcement, Which was very exciting. And then, a week later, the entire world turned upside down. So right away, I had to make, really important decisions that affected the future of our institution. So I went from thinking about presidential 1st year as a Meet and greet to a presidential 1st year of deciding, do I open the university or not? If we open the university, how many students Will we invite back to campus? Are we gonna require vaccinations? All of those parts and pieces I had to do as a brand new president or All of those decisions I had to make right away as a brand new president and get to know my community virtually. So, again, none of that is What most new presidents do when you go on that listening tour. I had to do the listening tour, but I had to do it all virtually. And the board asked me to deliver a strategic plan right away, and again, I had to figure out a way to do that on a campus where I didn't have any preexisting relationships.

Dr. Lori White [00:20:19]:

Do that within my 1st year and, again, do that all virtually. So, it was a very different kind of first and 2nd year as a president than I had imagined. And, again, I think my student affairs experiences really served me well because I knew how to relationship build. I knew how to manage in a crisis, though none of us knew how to manage this level of crisis, but I knew What is required in order to respond to, you know, ever-changing rules and policies, and have to make, those kinds of of really important decisions, at least I felt like I'd had some experience doing that. I obviously had some strategic planning experience, and so had to focus on how to figure out how to translate That experience that I had used in strategic planning for a division for an entire campus. And I think the other thing we're good doing in student affairs is keeping people's spirits up and being ever optimistic regardless of the challenge in front of us.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:25]:

Now thinking about all those VPSAs who might be listening today, what would you like to tell them about their applications for presidencies?

Dr. Lori White [00:21:33]:

I know several of them will probably call me, which is fine, or reach out to me about navigating the presidential search process, and I'm more than happy to do that. And what I always say to folks is we need good leaders. We need good presidential leaders and, you know, anyone in student affairs Who thinks they might want to be a college president, I would support and encourage that. And with this caveat, I always tell people, It's not the title. It's the job. And so you have to decide you want to do the work of being a college president, not just be excited by the fancy title. The work is really hard. It's even harder than being a vice president for student affairs.

Dr. Lori White [00:22:13]:

As I said, when I walk out of my door, I realize and recognize I have responsibility for everything at the university, not just some slice of it, and you have to be you're a public figure. Every day, somebody's mad at me for something. Right. At least in student affairs, a person might be mad at me, but most people liked me. You know, in this job, every day, there's somebody who's with the president about something, a decision that you've made, a communication that you have offered or not offered, a program that you've had to sunset, Whatever that might be, somebody's always upset with you, and so you have to be driven by what you think is the long term mission and focus of the institution and feel like every day you're making progress toward that. And if you feel like you can do that, Then you can be excited about the work. If being liked 100% of the time or, you know, feeling that you're are always gonna have all the answers, if that's Something that is most important to you, this is not the job.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:12]:

Totally fair. And the person who might be mad at you may not even be at your institution, depending on what kind of presidency.

Dr. Lori White [00:23:19]:

Or an alum who is not excited about what the alum seeds as a change in the direction of the institution. And for those of us who love places that we have been a part of, Change is hard.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:32]:

For sure. Let's flip that question a little bit. Now that you're sitting in the presidency seat, has that transitioned your mindset at all on the role of the VPSA?

Dr. Lori White [00:23:39]:

You know, it's such a great question, Jill, because I have a great vice president for student affairs, Dr. John Mark Day. And he and I laugh frequently because sometimes when we're in conversation and we're talking about students or student issues, I look at him and I say, you know what? I said, I'm not to where I'm responding with my president hat on, or I used to be a vice president of student affairs hat on. And so, of all of the people on my cabinet, I really wanna make sure that I am not getting in the lane of the vice president for student affairs just because I used to do that job. And I think the vice president for student affairs also appreciates a president who used to do that job and really understands, you know, all of the critical issues that he is wrestling with every day.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:24:28]:

We've talked a lot about the BPSA, but I also wanna talk about that 1st-year professional who is very far away from the presidency in terms of hierarchy in an organization and who is deeply affected by presidential decisions but maybe doesn't always understand them, or get to be in the rooms where a rationale for those decisions are being shared. What can you say to our entry and mid-level professionals who might be confused or set about a presidential decision or who might go? I don't understand why we're doing it this way.

Dr. Lori White [00:24:55]:

I appreciate that question also, Jill. Certainly, I have gotten that a lot. We had to make some really tough decisions in the spring that affected some particular student populations, and I think Emerging professionals and students were not completely understanding of the reasoning for making those decisions. Part of that, I wanna own because I think we could have done a better job of articulating the why. And, to your point, you know, when I was a younger professional, I was just focused on a particular area that I was responsible for, and I never really thought about the big university as a whole. And so what I would encourage, you know, new and emerging professionals is, as a president, I have to make decisions that affect the university not only tomorrow, but for the next 186 years; we're 186 years old. So, you know, the ramifications of any decision that I make have to stand the university well through the course of its next generation. And I think often Younger and emerging professionals aren't able to see that bigger picture.

Dr. Lori White [00:26:01]:

And so what I would encourage them to do is make sure that they're interacting team with their directors, interacting with their associate vice presidents, and the vice president to educate themselves About, you know, what is the larger context, for any decisions that a president might make, and are there ways in which That emerging or younger professional can give what is probably really valuable feedback, about those big decisions that the president is considering.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:26:29]:

Our emerging professionals are often the ones who are closest to our students as well. They hear the students most clearly and often are closest in age to our students, so they can truly stand the challenges facing our students better than a senior administrator can. With that in mind, how can or how should an emerging professional or new professional share what they know upward?

Dr. Lori White [00:26:51]:

I think it depends on the place. So, you know, I and what I mean about that is, you know, at a big, Complicated university. It is unlikely that an emerging professional is gonna be able to directly email the president. Right? And so, in those places, it's most important to go up the chain of, you know, I'm trying to think of another word for the chain of command, but the organizational structure. Right. So, you know, sharing that with your director, your director, in turn, shares that with their AVP, and the AVP, in turn, shares that with the VP, who then can share that with the president. You know, at a small place, I'm pretty accessible. And so while I it would not be politically kosher Or, you know, emerging professional to jump over all those hoops and come directly to me with something they hadn't shared with their vice president.

Dr. Lori White [00:27:42]:

People also know that I'm a very accessible president. My email, you know, is open to everybody on campus. People don't hesitate to reach out to me, and so I certainly would encourage somebody on my campus, certainly, if there's something they wanted to share with me To do so, but I would want them to copy in the people for whom they work so that those folks aren't blindsided. I also think, you know, as leaders, One of the things I'm really proud that I did and I need to do more of is that when I created our strategic planning teams when I first arrived, I said I want people at all levels of the organization to participate, not just the usual suspects and not just the people, who are at the highest level of the organizational chart because I know, that there are great ideas throughout the organization, and I wanted to empower Those younger folks to feel like they could offer their ideas and participate.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:36]:

That's wonderful to hear that the strategic planning is considering all levels. I know that not all organizations do that, but it's a true example of giving voice to all professionals. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Lori White [00:28:47]:

Right. I think that I think that's important. I think we need to do a better job of how we can best involve our students. And I think, you know, whenever I talk with students, I say to them, tell me, You know, what is the most effective way for us to hear your voice? Because, you know, we will often hear when we make a decision, well, students weren't informed, They weren't consulted, and sometimes we have informed and consulted, and sometimes we haven't done a really good job of doing that. And sometimes, we may have done that, but not with the right student population. So I think continued interactions with our students about the best way for us to make sure their voices are heard is important. As a matter of fact, tomorrow, I have a meeting with our student body president. I realized that somehow, in the midst of the pandemic, That regular meeting between the president and the student body president had fallen off of my schedule, and I know how important that So I'm excited that we are able to make sure that that's happening.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:44]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]:

Thanks so much, Joe. Excited to be back in the NASPA world, and there are so many things that are happening in our association I'm excited to share with you today. The NASPA 2024 conference is going to be here before we know it, March 9th through 13th in Seattle, Washington. And there's been a lot of updates, a lot of things that are Coming down the pipeline that you need to be thinking about if you are planning to attend registration, need to jump into housing. There are a lot of things to consider, but there are also some great pre-conference opportunities that are going to be at the conference as well. So not only are there going to be amazing sessions during the regular sessions of the conference itself, but if you come a little bit early, You can take advantage of the learning at a number of really great pre-conferences that are always Providing high-level quality information that is going to help you in many different ways. A couple of the pre-conference highlights that I would throw out there: the 2024 NASPA Community College Institute, or CCI, is a uniquely tailored experience for community college professionals. This exclusive event accelerates your development, fosters collaboration, and provides insight to reshape program organization and student support services for enhanced student success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]:

The 2024 NASPA International Symposium. The symposium fosters global dialogue on student affairs, aiming to broaden perspectives and forge connections across borders. Aligned with NASPA's commitment to global readiness, the symposium benefits those in international student services and practitioners seeking to enhance Global competency. The 2024 NASPA undergraduate student conference. This conference provides a firsthand learning opportunity for undergraduate students To gain knowledge and understanding of student affairs work, awareness, and professional associations, opportunities for networking, and resources To assist in defining their career trajectory in student affairs. Highly encourage you to go to the conference website, Check it out for yourself see all the opportunities that are available, and sign up now before the preconference session that you want to go to is full. The 2024 NASPA Mid-Level Administrators Conference is coming up June 13th through 15th in Indianapolis, Indiana. This conference is a dynamic professional development event designed to provide mid-level student affairs professionals with the opportunity to engage and learn with colleagues and student affairs administrators.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:30]:

Participants will gain insight from promising practices and personal reflections to develop their professional competencies, networking, and supervisory skills further and acquire new skills and strategies to improve their professional practice. The mid-level administrator's conference is designed for those student affairs professionals who Serve in roles between but not including entry-level positions and AVP and the equivalent roles. Additionally, professionals who have been serving in entry-level roles for at least 5 years are welcome to attend. You have until March 29, 2024, to get in under the early bird registration, so you still have a little bit of time, but I encourage you to do this now and jump in on this great learning opportunity. There are a couple of great NASPA short courses that are available that are starting in January of 2024 that I wanted to make sure that you were aware of. The first goes from January 21st through February 24th, and that is on student affairs at Small colleges and universities. In this course, you can explore challenges and opportunities at small colleges, and this is for leaders, traders, and faculty who serve at institutions with under 5,000 students. The 2nd short course is Title IX Certificate in Winter 24.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]:

Now, while the new Title IX rules are finalized, compliance with current rules is crucial. This course offers rule-specific training, including an updated module on proposed rules and recent court decisions. The course actually runs from January 22nd through February 23rd. And finally, the last short course I'll mention today is Assessment by Design, which applies systems thinking to inform assessment practice. Now this course shifts the focus from measuring outcomes to evaluating design. Embrace a systems approach to student affairs assessment, Reflecting on the purpose, challenges, and value of defining the work design. All of these and more are available on the NASPA website. When you go to the NASPA website, go to the NASPA online learning community for additional live and on-demand offerings.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:40]:

Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you Up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways because the association is as strong as its members. And for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. As you're doing that, it's important to identify where you fit for yourself. Where do you wanna give back? Each week, we're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you and allow you to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to say, hey. I see myself in that knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encouraging you in other ways that allow for you to be able to Think beyond what's available right now to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts and your talents To the association and to all of the members within the association because through doing that, all of us are stronger and The association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:05]:

Chris, we really appreciate you putting together these NASPA world segments all season. That one is our final NASPA world segment for this season 9. So, Lori, you are now our final lightning round for season 9 as well. I've got seven questions for you in about 90 seconds. Are you ready to roll?

Dr. Lori White [00:36:22]:

Ready to roll.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:23]:

Alright. Question number 1. If you were a conference keynote speaker, What would your entrance music be?

Dr. Lori White [00:36:29]:

Something from Earth, Wind, and Fire celebration.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:32]:

Oh, that's a good one. Number 2, when you were 5 years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Dr. Lori White [00:36:37]:

I wanted to be a scientist.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:39]:

Number 3, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Dr. Lori White [00:36:40]:

Dr. Condoleezza Rice.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:42]:

Number 4, your essential student affairs read.

Dr. Lori White [00:36:47]:

Call the Dean of Students.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:50]:

Number 5, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Dr. Lori White [00:36:53]:

SUV.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:55]:

Number 6, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Dr. Lori White [00:36:57]:

Yours.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:36:59]:

And finally, number 7, any shout-outs you'd like to give, personal or professional.

Dr. Lori White [00:37:04]:

Oh, shout-outs to all of my peeps in student affairs. Can't wait to see all of you at the Seattle conference, and I'll be holding office hours in the bar per usual.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:15]:

Lori, we are so grateful that you were willing to give us your time. We know how busy you are in the presidency role. I know your advice today has been incredible, not only for me, but for all of our listeners. If folks would like to get a hold of you and they're not gonna be in Seattle, how can they find you?

Dr. Lori White [00:37:29]:

President@depauw.edu .

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:32]:

Can you spell DePauw for us?

Dr. Lori White [00:37:33]:

Sure. Depauw, and the w is important because, DePaul and DePauw are 2 different places.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:43]:

Lori, thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Dr. Lori White [00:37:47]:

Thank you so much, Jill. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:37:51]:

This has been an episode of SA voices from the field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show. You can always email us at essay voices at NASPA.org or find me on LinkedIn by searching for Dr. Jill L. Creighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions. We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show, and please like, rate, and review us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you're listening now.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:38:24]:

It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton. That's me. Produced and audio-engineered by Dr. Christopher Lewis. Guest coordination by Liu Yongru. Special thanks to the University of Michigan Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In a this week's episode of SA Voices From The Field, guest Omar Mehdi shared his inspiring journey from being a student at the American University of Kuwait (AUK) to returning as the Director of Student Life. Throughout his discussion, he highlighted his experiences of personal and professional growth, the challenges of transitioning from a student to a professional supervisor, and the cultural shifts he faced as an international student in the United States.

Navigating Change and Professional Growth

Omar Mehdi's story is a testament to the transformative power of embracing change and pursuing new experiences. After completing his Master's in Leadership and Higher Education at the University of San Diego, Omar ventured into the corporate world, gaining valuable real-world experience outside the traditional university setting. His time in the business world provided him with a fresh perspective on decision-making, financial management, and the cultivation of a new professional network.

From Player to Supervisor

Lessons in Leadership Returning to AUK as the Director of Student Life, Omar Mehdi faced the unique challenge of transitioning from being under the direction of coaches to becoming their supervisor. His experiences of making difficult decisions and managing transitions within the sports program shed light on the complexities of leadership and the importance of personality and character in navigating such transitions successfully. 

Reflection and Communication in Student Affairs

Throughout his journey, Omar credits his ability to reflect and communicate his feelings to his university program. Initially finding the concept challenging, he came to realize the immense benefit of personal reflection and open communication, particularly when addressing difficult decisions and managing personnel changes. Omar's experience underscores the value of emotional intelligence and self-awareness in the field of student affairs, serving as a guiding light for aspiring professionals.

Embracing Diversity as an International Student

As an international student in the United States, Omar faced a range of challenges, including culture shock, visa issues, and a steep learning curve. His insights into the significance of listening to and understanding the diverse needs and backgrounds of international students highlight the importance of cultural sensitivity and awareness in creating inclusive and supportive environments within higher education institutions.

Impactful Advice for Student Affairs Professionals

Omar's journey and reflections offer invaluable advice for those pursuing careers in student affairs. His emphasis on the significance of personal and professional growth, the value of emotional intelligence, and the need to listen to and understand the diverse needs of students resonates deeply with the mission of creating inclusive and supportive campus communities.

Inspiring Change and Transformation

Omar's story serves as an inspiration for those navigating shifts in their professional paths, urging individuals to embrace change, seek new experiences, and recognize the transformative power of diverse experiences. His impact as the Director of Student Life at AUK reflects a commitment to fostering meaningful student experiences and impacting lives within the academic environment.

In conclusion, Omar Mehdi's journey from student to supervisor embodies the spirit of growth, resilience, and the pursuit of meaningful impact within the field of student affairs. His reflections on leadership, personal growth, and embracing diversity serve as a beacon of inspiration for professionals and students alike, underscoring the profound impact of transformative experiences within higher education.

This serves as a reminder of the power of personal and professional growth, the importance of cultural sensitivity, and the transformative potential of navigating change with resilience and grace. Omar Mehdi's journey stands as a testament to the possibilities that unfold when one embraces diverse opportunities and the journey of lifelong learning within the vibrant tapestry of student affairs.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices From the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field, host today on SA Voices, are pleased to bring you back to the Middle East, to the country of Kuwait to meet Omar Mehdi. Omar graduated from the American University of Kuwait with a BBA in Management in 2012 and then an Ma in Leadership in Higher Education from the University of San Diego in 2014. Omar returned to Auk in 2014 as the Sports Coordinator in the Office of Student Life and then in 2016 was promoted to Senior Coordinator for Sports in 2019, became the Assistant Director of the Office of Student Life, and then left the world of Student Affairs in 2020 to return in 2023 as the Director of the Office of Student Life.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:00]:

I hope you enjoy getting to know Omar. Omar Mehdi, welcome to the show.

Omar Mehdi [00:01:05]:

Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be here and very happy to join you, Jill. Thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:11]:

It's a wonderful thing to be able to continue our tradition of having guests from all over the world on SA Voices. And will you let our listeners know where we're speaking from today?

Omar Mehdi [00:01:21]:

So we are speaking live from Kuwait.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:24]:

Excellent. And Omar works with a previous guest, Paula, who was on our International Voices season. Listeners, I'm also going to let you know that I'm a little under the weather as we record today, so my audio quality might just be a little bit different than what you're used to. But please bear with us as we I'm sure the conversation will be just as rich, just with a little bit of a deeper voice today. Omar, we love to start our shows by getting to know our guests, and you have one of the most interesting transitions on our season because you've gone from being a student at your university, american University of Kuwait, all the way through becoming the Director of Student Life. So can you tell us about that journey?

Omar Mehdi [00:02:02]:

Yes, it is very interesting to be a student in this university and then graduate from it, come back and work here. My path into this world of student affairs came by chance. I didn't expect that I would graduate and work in the field when I was a student at Auk at the American University of Kuwait. One of the admissions counselors who helped me get into Auk recommended working on campus, be a student employee, and she recommended me to the Office of Student Life because I wanted a job and I had time and why not? I started working at Office Student Life back then. And Then back then, the Dean Of Student Affairs, dr. Carol Ross, and The Director Of Student Life, Damien Medina, were I think they just started the nuff program, NASFA, and they recommended it to me. They like, Listen, if you're interested, this is a unique opportunity to be an undergraduate, a student who gets to know more about what we do and why we do it. I was passionate about working in general, and the fact that they gave me an opportunity to work got me into it.

Omar Mehdi [00:02:55]:

And then I did the nuff program, traveled to Philadelphia back then, where the NASA annual conference was, we did the pre conference with enough group. It was the first time I go to the US. And it was the first time I go to a real conference, not a small conference for undergraduates. It was one which is with professionals and opened up my eyes to realize that the three people that work in the office life at the American University of Kuwait are part of a much bigger group of people that do this. So to see the size, the scale, the number of people that have the same title but work across the US. Canada and more, it was huge for me. I was lucky that the speakers at the Nuff pre conference were outstanding. We had I forget the name of the title of the book, but the strengths, the five strengths.

Omar Mehdi [00:03:35]:

So that you do this quiz at the end of the book and they give you the five strengths. They brought the speaker.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:40]:

It was really cool for Gallup strength.

Omar Mehdi [00:03:43]:

Yes. And he was really cool, very engaging. So it was a very enriching experience for me. And then after it, I started considering doing a Master's degree in the field in the Division of Student Affairs. I was lucky enough to be admitted and selected for the Student Affairs program at the University of San Diego. So at USD, I did my Master's in Leadership and Higher Education. And the beauty of that program is that you get to have your graduate assistantship with the coursework, too. So again, I was very lucky.

Omar Mehdi [00:04:15]:

And you'll notice this is like a pattern in my path. I've always been lucky with the people I work with. Assistant director back then, danielle Nelman and the other assistant director, Stephanie, and the Director of the center for Student Success. All of them were excellent mentors. All of them allowed me to be this little kid who comes from Kuwait who just graduated undergrad right to his masters, have very little experience in the real world to learn, make mistakes, grow and develop. The year and a half I spent USD was, I think, pushed me at least five years ahead than I used to think that I would by the time I graduate. And then I came back. Luckily, there was a position available at American University of Kuwait.

Omar Mehdi [00:04:55]:

So I started as a sports coordinator as a student. I was a student athlete, too, so I was a captain of soccer team. I was in the basketball team. I was in the volleyball team, I was in the table tennis team. So I was very well versed with our program student athlete. But now I came in as a coordinator, I was lucky that the position was available. I started there and then moved into the senior coordinator for sports, then assistant director. I took a sabbatical or a break from student affairs.

Omar Mehdi [00:05:17]:

I left in 2020, just before COVID to work in a corporate world for three years there, and then came back February 2023. So the beginning of this year back to a UK as the Director of Student Life. And that's how I got here.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:05:29]:

You didn't take the worst three years off of the profession.

Omar Mehdi [00:05:32]:

Let me tell you again, I was lucky. It was a troubling time for every industry in the world. But to navigate to support students, and how to offer students an experience into a digital one is a very difficult one. And like every country in the world, kuwait was very unsettled at that point, and we didn't know what was happening. We don't know how long this is going to take. When do we go back? So I left just before COVID and came back just after COVID. So when Hybrid was done, online was done, I came back. So I never got to see university through a COVID experience.

Omar Mehdi [00:06:02]:

I never got to do that, which maybe I'm lucky, but the three years that I was away from the university's industry, I had to also participate or try to offer the company I worked for as much support as I can to the staff and clients that we had.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:17]:

What made you want to depart the field during that time?

Omar Mehdi [00:06:20]:

So I graduated with a bachelor's in Business Management, and the position I moved out of the Auk to go to was one in the business field. It was a great opportunity to test something new, try something different. As you know, as great as it is to work in student affairs and to work in a university, I graduated from Auk. I went for a few years to the States, to two years in the States, came back and worked in Auk. I didn't know anything outside of Auk, which has a lot of advantages in the job because I know it really well. But as a person, as an individual, to grow, you have to kind of leave your comfort zone. You have to leave what you're used to and you have to try something different. I was lucky to in the three years that I was there, I was lucky to learn so much.

Omar Mehdi [00:06:58]:

And I think I came back as a much stronger candidate for the position than if I was promoted from assistant Director automatically to the director. In the three years I've learned so much about the real world when it comes to working with people that are not just students, they don't have to be here. They can choose to pay somewhere else and go because I work in the gyms industry. So it's a month to month relationship. They can choose next month to leave you. So what you work on, how you develop a relationship with them, is very different to I have a whole semester with you, at least if not four or five, six years. So I came back, as I said, as a much stronger candidate for the position. And I can add so much to what I do through both experiences in student affairs and outside.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:37]:

What inspired you to come back into student affairs and specifically back to Auk after having that business experience?

Omar Mehdi [00:07:44]:

The inspiration always comes back to I love what I do in student affairs and I love the field. And I always thought, listen, I'll change the world one student at a time, just let me graduate from USD and the world will never be the same because I want to change the world. You do mature. You do realize it's not that as easy as it sounds, but there's a very different mindset. And I enjoyed my job outside of Auk. There's a very different hat you wear and a very different mindset that you have when you work in a business and you care about financials, you care about bottom line. And there's a very different mindset to trying to create experiences for students to develop, to grow, and to learn from the worries that you have. The concentration, the focus is very different.

Omar Mehdi [00:08:22]:

Going back to trying to build programs or trying to build an experience for students to better themselves, to learn to experience new things, is always something that has attracted me. And that's why when I knew the job was available, I automatically applied to it because I knew this is something I'd love to go back to. And to add to that, I've always done it from a sports perspective. I've always done it as a sports coordinator and then a senior sports coordinator, and then to be able to do it at a director level where I can impact or influence policies or programs at more than just sports. So under our department, we have athletics, we have clubs and organizations, code of conduct, student employment, we have a bunch of facilities that we're in charge of, the lounge, courts and so on. And to be able to influence more than just one aspect of student life is something that excites me to come back to.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:09:12]:

You said something interesting earlier, which is that you brought back skills that you didn't have before based on the business experience you had. What are some of those skills that you gained while you were out working in corporate world that have really served you well coming into this role as director of Student life?

Omar Mehdi [00:09:26]:

Absolutely. So many one of the things that comes to mind very quickly is the change in network. So in network and student affairs, most of us do very similar jobs and open up very similar paths for each other because we're in the same industry. However, when you go to a different industry, your network suddenly changes and you network with a lot of different industries. And coming back knowing so many different having new ties and having new networks is something that was very valuable, I think, for me so far. A lot of the students have ideas but don't know where to go and don't know who to talk to. A lot of clubs and organizations want to reach out to organizations in Kuwait where they may be too busy and so on. But knowing individuals in It can open up doors and open up channels for them.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:08]:

That's one thing for sure. Another thing in the directorship position you have to assume responsibilities. You don't. As a coordinator, when I left Auk, I was the chief operating officer. So as a chief operating officer in a company, your HR manager reports to you, the finance manager reports to you. Understanding how those moving pieces work and the rationale behind them is something I didn't have in the past. So coming back to now as a director, I understand budgeting at a different perspective. I understand hiring at a different perspective.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:36]:

I understand scale at a different perspective. In the company I used to work in too, we'd organize nationwide events where, for example, there'd be thousands of people that attend our events. Whereas Auk total is 2000 something students. So to understand scalability is something what was new to me. I was used to the same scale. I was used to the exact same scale. As a student here, I graduated, I worked here. USD provided that too.

Omar Mehdi [00:10:59]:

But coming back here was easy. It wasn't something new to me. So understanding that planning at a different scale is something else and assuming responsibility and making hard decisions during COVID at such an executive position at a company where you have to choose to either let go of people, change contracts and so on, and then to move back to a decision making position where it's not as serious as decisions that we make. I'm never going to choose to close a branch or open up a branch. As a director of student life, I'm never going to choose. And this directly impacts people's livelihood. The decisions that we do here I can take a lot lighter than in the past position that I had, which gave me a lot of perspective too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:35]:

You've also come back to an environment where you mentioned this was kind of the main environment that you knew as an adult, right? You were a student there, you grew up in the sports environment there. Talk to us about the transition of going from student at the institution to professional and how your relationships with people at Auk needed to change at that time.

Omar Mehdi [00:11:54]:

Absolutely. This may sound very interesting to the audience. So when I was a student. I came into Auk in fall 2008 and I graduated spring 2012. In the four years that I was there, the law in Kuwait was that universities had to be segregated gender wise. So I would come to Auk. It is a mixed university with gender segregated classes, naturally, that influenced and changed the dynamics between the genders and between all of campus life. So I leave to the states, I come back, and this law has changed.

Omar Mehdi [00:12:23]:

And now classes are mixed naturally. This changes the overall atmosphere and the campus culture. So even today, which is a mixed culture, the university experience that the students are having today is very different to the one I was having simply because of that. Naturally, as I age and the gap gets bigger between me and the incoming students and the students on campus. So although they're the similar buildings, the exact same buildings, it's the same culture, sorry, it's the same colors, it's the same some of the same employees, some of the same staff, but the culture has shifted completely when I even speak to students today. The university I went to is a very different university that they went to simply because of the way we were. The life that we lived was a very different one. However, I did come back as a young employee.

Omar Mehdi [00:13:05]:

I was 24, and some of the students, especially the nontraditional ones, were close to my age, if not older. I did come back and found some of the students who I was friends with who are still students. The nature of the position that I had because I was a sports coordinator, you tend to be the fun guy. You're not like there to discipline, you're not charged for code of conduct. So it was easy to be the young guy on campus because you're the sports guy. So you're friends with all the players, you're friends with all the coaches, you're doing the fun stuff. However, I think one of the first things that I had to do, and I think it made me a better professional today, is right off the bat, I had to discipline athletes. So I do have to stick to a GPA requirement when selecting students.

Omar Mehdi [00:13:45]:

I do have to enforce these laws. I do have to make sure that their behavior in the team practice and so on is held to a certain standard. Doing it at an age where you're very young to them can cause a lot more conflict and friction, whereas if you're much older, maybe because of simply your age, there can be an assumed authority to your personality that they succumb to. But I think especially that I was balancing doing that meanwhile, while being the supervisor or the person in charge of all the coaches who are all older than and a few of them were my coaches too. And I've had to let go of one of them. Who? Once upon a time, I used to play for them. And now I have to let them go. So those experiences are very, very sticky and uncomfortable.

Omar Mehdi [00:14:25]:

And forcing myself to go through them and not backing down, I think have made me more confident moving forward.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:31]:

Let's talk about that transition with that one person specifically, where you're going from being under their direction as a coach to being their leader as a supervisor. How did you navigate the shift in that relationship?

Omar Mehdi [00:14:44]:

So I had two coaches that I played for and then ended up coming back and becoming their supervisor. In the first year that I was back, I had to let go of one of them. The second year I was back, I had to let go of the second one. I think the first one was, I think, a rough transition. That person didn't take it well, didn't take me offering pointers about how they do their job well, them not taking my feedback seriously, although it sounded serious, although I tried to do it in a serious setting. In the first year I worked at Auk, I'd also dress more professionally just to put that boundary and standard between me and the students and the people that report to me. However, they still never took it that seriously. And when it came to a point in time where we can no longer continue, they never reacted really well.

Omar Mehdi [00:15:23]:

I also think if I were to do it today, I would have done things a lot differently. I have learned in the past, unfortunately, 20 years of working. But the point I'm trying to make is the second time I was able to do it, the personality of the person that I had to ask to step down from the position was a lot more accepting of their mistakes and faults. I also learned that sometimes, even if because you can be really hard on yourself, on the approach because if it doesn't turn out to be as smooth as you hope for it, you also realize that it's not always only on the setting that you put. The other person plays a role. And the character and the personality that you are dealing with is a variable to the situation. So the second situation went a lot smoother, and that person, although they were let go, they were appreciated by the team, the university, they were given a farewell gift and so on. Whereas the first one, it was more storming out.

Omar Mehdi [00:16:09]:

Never want to talk to you again. This is ridiculous. I had to play it back. Driving back home and you're in the shower, you think about what they said. You know, these moments in your life where you think about these difficult situations where if you were to go back, you'd say some things differently.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:16:21]:

Can you tell us more about what it meant for you to reflect on it and go through your own growth process?

Omar Mehdi [00:16:28]:

Luckily, because of the program that I was in in the university of San Diego. Reflection was huge. Reflection is huge in the process, and it's very embedded in the coursework that we do, coming from the background and atmosphere I came from in Kuwait. To go to USD and try to reflect on my own life was a very new skill. I have never reflected my life to be especially publicly too, there were situations where you would have to publicly reflect and you have to talk about what your reflections look like because that's how the setting is made in the classroom. And because it was very difficult. And by the time I graduated, I actually was able to do this. Now I'm able to reflect, get in touch with my feelings and vocalize how I feel and communicate what I need, what I'm feeling, what I'm learning was a huge advantage for me in the program.

Omar Mehdi [00:17:14]:

It's one of the main things I actually walked away with that I still use today. And it's something I practice in my positions that I've had. But in that period of time, it's interesting because at that point in time, you do reflect on how the words that are said or things that are communicated in the meeting may bruise your ego or bruise your authority and you want to defend it. The first reaction you may have is, I want to defend my ego and defend my authority, and I need to put my foot down. And because in that room I am the younger person. I am the person that not too long ago, I used to be your player, I'd had to be a lot more diplomatic and let go of the bruising that was happening to the ego and the position and the authority. So reflecting on maybe I could have been more aggressive. Reflecting on what if I did this, what would have happened? Maybe thinking I should have made it short and sweet.

Omar Mehdi [00:18:02]:

I shouldn't have maybe gone through an entire meeting with time, unfortunately, I've had several situations where I've had to let go of people. I've been able to maybe see the mistakes that I've done in that meeting and then not repeat them in the future situations, unfortunately, that I've had. But in that period of time where I was going through it, it was difficult because it was a very aggressive meeting. It wasn't a good situation. In the back of your mind, you keep circling back to the because you could have said this and you could have done this. And maybe you think, and this is a person that I don't necessarily have bad feelings towards you. I just don't think you're the right person for this job. But because I was your player, I do have a fond memory of you.

Omar Mehdi [00:18:41]:

And now that's ruined because now you think I'm a horrible monster who's let you go. But I actually don't have anything against you. I just think we need to try someone else.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:49]:

Let's go back in time a little bit and talk about your transition to being an international student. You've spent most of your life in Kuwait, if not all of your life in Kuwait. And you're like, let's go to San Diego. It's sunny there. But tell us about that immersion into American culture and your adjustment period into life in USC.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:08]:

All right, so, as you said, lived my whole life here, born and raised. And sometimes it's like the fish in the water. They don't know they're wet, and you have to leave to know what dry is, because you have to leave the sea to know that what dry looks like. In Kuwait, I knew myself through titles. I am the captain of the football team. That is what I do. I play football. I am the youngest son to my parents.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:31]:

That is what I do. I am the youngest son to them. I am friends with so and so. That is what do. And because I was in that setting, I never got a chance to actually get to know who I am outside of these roles that you play. The moment I moved to the United States, and the moment you go there, you realize the world's much bigger than the little world you live in. And this can be true to any country, any city you live in. And because the United States is really far in distance and in similarities between the country I live in, everything is new.

Omar Mehdi [00:19:54]:

I never paid attention to the color of my skin till I went to the United States. I never realized I have a color of my skin till I walked into the US. That I realized I don't look like them. They do look at me and see a difference. My accent, the things I say, what's appropriate to say and what's not appropriate to say. You can say things in Kuwait that can make everybody laugh and make everybody feel comfortable, but you can say in the States, and everybody will think you're horrible and think you're crossing all kinds of red lines. So moving there in the beginning and this is the thing, I had visa issues to get to the States, so I missed the first semester. And then because of my assistantship, that goes with the actual being admitted to the university.

Omar Mehdi [00:20:29]:

So there was an office who was waiting for me to come that I actually never turned up to for a whole semester because they were waiting on me to get my visa. And by the time I got there, it was literally a few days before spring orientation. We were in charge of spring orientation as an office center for student success. So I literally had to hit the ground running. There was no room for you to train right now. Whatever task I give, you just have to do it. We will get to training you later. We will get to transitioning you later today.

Omar Mehdi [00:20:50]:

We have to do orientation. And it was the first time they do orientation too, as an office, maybe there was the first time for the center for Student Success to organize orientation, but for me, it was the first time doing everything. The learning curve for them was related to orientation. For me, it was everything. Whether it was orientation, these people, their names, what time does the sun set? Where do I get what this and that? I moved there not having an apartment or a place to stay. I stayed at a motel in the beginning, so I'd finish work and go back to a motel. Classes haven't started yet, so that's a new curve that's coming up. And I think I was lucky to have that.

Omar Mehdi [00:21:20]:

And I think because I hit the ground running, there wasn't time for me to dwell on the differences, dwell on the culture shock. Because you hit the ground running, you quickly have to adapt. And no time I was able to get myself sorted and move into a place and all that stuff. But the person that went to the United States of America and the person that left the United States of America are two different people. And I'm a much better person because of the experience I had. If I never went to the United States, I think I'd still be the same person I was. And I would say that is a worse off human being. I think as a person, I became much better outside of career wise.

Omar Mehdi [00:21:53]:

Career wise, I've developed mentally because of the experiences I had, because of the mentors that I had, because of the program that I was in. But genuinely, as a human being, I also improved a lot. I've changed a lot. The reflection process that is embedded into the program has allowed me to change some of the things that I never realized were a part of who I am. And going back to the point I was saying earlier where I knew myself through my roles, going to a country that A doesn't care about, maybe soccer, in the same way Kuwait does, and who I do as a person, and realizing you have a skill nobody cares about, and then nobody knows who you are. You don't know who anybody is, you don't know where things are. And trying to create something in that environment made me a much more confident, much more independent, and much more well rounded. I used to live with my parents.

Omar Mehdi [00:22:36]:

I still live with my parents because of the culture that we live in. You don't leave your house until you get married. So naturally, food is something I take for granted, laundry is something I take for granted. And this is something every college student feels the first time they go getting to learn how to do their laundry and something new. But it was new to me, and I was doing it as the older dog. I was doing it as. A person who has 21 years old, not 1718. So now I'm a little different, too, in that aspect.

Omar Mehdi [00:22:59]:

And then you move into the actual coursework and the actual program. And it was very strange to me that people were talking about their feelings in the classroom. It was extremely strange. It was strange to the point of it was off putting. Like, why are you being emotional? I don't want to learn this. I want to learn what says in textbook. I'm still looking at it as a traditional education style. And people were talking, everybody's talking about their feelings.

Omar Mehdi [00:23:22]:

And I'm sitting there thinking, this is ridiculous. You guys need to take yourself seriously. There's a professor here. And then some of them would be emotional to a point where they would cry. And to me, this is ridiculous. Guys, come on. Get a good grip. And I never understood the value of what they were bringing to the table till, I think, my second semester.

Omar Mehdi [00:23:40]:

And that's when everything clicked, kind of. I started drinking the Koolaid, tried to understand what it is that we do and why we do it. Understanding that emotion isn't a bad thing, feeling it isn't a bad thing. The knowledge and learning that you get from getting in touch with these emotions and unraveling the onion is something that is valuable. Understanding also that in Kuwait, being a student employee at a university, it's a great experience, but you're not really in charge of a lot of bigger things. And then you move to the States, and now you're a graduate assistantship. So it has a higher responsibility. The volume of work is more responsible, or the kind of work is more responsible.

Omar Mehdi [00:24:15]:

And then these supervisors aren't. I don't know them. They're new to me. And working to impress them was something very hard for me because I don't know who they are. I don't know what they expect when it comes to the delivery of work or the quality of work that you have to do. I was very impressed by them, and naturally, I wanted to impress them. So that was great, and I learned a lot from being able to work with them. And the best part of my program, what made transitioning to life in the United States and San Diego specifically, is the program was very sensitive to the fact that I am an international student.

Omar Mehdi [00:24:46]:

They were very careful with my transition in the sense that we had a cohort that would meet every two weeks as a class, and we would talk about our experiences. The people in the cohort were also very friendly to the fact that, hey, Amar is not from here. Like, how's doing? I think they were very welcoming. I was very lucky to have a very welcoming cohort that wanted what's best for me. They would talk to me about my transition and how I'm coping, which some people may not do that. You may not be so lucky to have a cohort that actually cares to check in, to actually care to give. You advice to actually to see how it's like to be the international student and see your input or what you bring to the table, your perspective as valuable. So in a nutshell, it's lucky to have that experience.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:24]:

What advice would you give student affairs professionals around the world to support international students coming to their campuses?

Omar Mehdi [00:25:30]:

I think they should listen. I think that international students is a title you use for non US students. However, we as a group have so many different things.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:25:40]:

Literally the entire world, it's everybody but American.

Omar Mehdi [00:25:43]:

And we are all very, very different in our backgrounds and so on. However, we do go through similar aspects of US. What makes us international students, the culture shock, the transition, trying to get self sorted and so on. However, listening is very important. The student groups that come to you may have very different needs, may experience things very differently. So maybe a student from a certain country may experience the exact same thing. A different student is from a different country experiencing it very differently. The international office that belonged to the USD at University of San Diego was also very cultured, which, I don't mean this in a bad way, but it isn't the same in the States.

Omar Mehdi [00:26:15]:

Like in my first week in the US. Someone came to me and said, Where are you from? And I said, Kuwait. And they said, oh, is that inside India? And to me it didn't offend me. I laughed because I was like, oh, Sweden, no, you need to open up a map of the world to me. I laughed. It didn't offend me, but it could offend people. That not knowing the difference between someone who is and it happens in the world because there are a lot of states that are neighboring and have very similar populations but hate each other and don't get along. So mistakening the difference between one and so listening and realizing that students have different needs and number two, being cultured and incoming student.

Omar Mehdi [00:26:49]:

Especially that as a person who is Muslim, who does believe in Islam, who does practice Islam and lives in a conservative country, when you go to the United States, which is a very liberal country, a lot of things can offend me. And trying to understand if this is something that may be normal to Americans, maybe hard for me to swallow or to cope with, can impact my experience and impact my retention. Reasons to come back is something very important because one of the things that used to happen in the class, especially in student affairs, they'll talk about LGBT concerns. And this is unheard of in where I come unheard of. And to be in a classroom where you're trying to understand their perspective is something that is foreign and alien to me because this is not something that is welcomed nor accommodated in where I come from. So this is one example, but you can have so many, and because again, I come from Kuwait, right? So a lot of people would ask me about Iraq as if I lived there, and then the war in Iraq was still going on, so people would ask me about the war and the troops. And San Diego is a very Marines heavy city, and a lot of our students in USD were there for the GI G Bill or what's it called, and they would come and want to talk to me about Iraq and talk about their experience. But that's not mine.

Omar Mehdi [00:27:56]:

I know it's close, but it's not mine. And I've never been to Iraq. So it's trying to understand the nuances of where they come from is very important because you're going to welcome them in as a university and you have a responsibility to make them feel comfortable in the same way that you have a responsibility to make res life, to be comfortable for the incoming freshman students and so on. So for me, the International Student Office needs to a listen, and b be more cultured in the nuances of the student groups coming in because they come with very, very different backgrounds.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:28]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world, and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA, and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. Another great blog on the NASPA website how community Colleges and University Partnerships improve enrollment and student experiences. This is by Sherry Rowland of Tallahassee Community College. Sherry provides some really great insights into her own experience, but also some practical applications and takeaways that you may be able to consider for implementing at your own campus. If you've never checked out the NASPA blog, you need to go over to the NASPA website, click on the latest, and go down to blog. Or you can just scroll over to the latest and go down to blog and you'll find this article right toward the top of the page. Finally, we are thrilled to announce that ACPA College Student Educators International and NASPA Student Affairs Administrators in Higher Education are once again partnering to devise and update the ACPA NASPA professional competencies for student affairs educators, along with the complementary rubrics with a planned release for the updates in Spring 2025.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]:

There's a large number of individuals from both ACPA and NASPA that are on the Task Force. As the Task Force begins its work, we at NASPA are excited to offer the first of many opportunities for members to provide feedback about your experiences with and use of the professional competencies in your work. This first opportunity will be focused on groups centering on individuals in various positions in January 2024, NASPA will offer additional focus groups based on the ten current professional competency areas. NASPA also will provide an opportunity to offer written feedback via a short survey. Should have received an email just recently where you can sign up for one of the initial focus groups. All you have to do is click on the link in your email to be able to sign up for a session. And Espa does anticipate that these sessions will fill, but there will be additional opportunities that will continue to offer other engagement opportunities for you to provide feedback over the next few months. Every week, we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:57]:

So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit, where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge, community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now, to offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association. Because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:18]:

Chris, we always appreciate the time and effort you put into the NASPA World segment and keeping us informed on what's going on in and around NASPA. Omar, we have now reached our lightning round segment, which means I have about 90 seconds for you to answer seven questions. You ready to go?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:33]:

Let's go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:34]:

All right, question number one. If you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:39]:

Eyes of Tiger.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:40]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:44]:

Engineer.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:44]:

Number three who's your most influential professional mentor?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:47]:

Fat Wahat.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:48]:

Number four. Your essential student affairs.

Omar Mehdi [00:32:51]:

Read the Chronicle.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:52]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic?

Omar Mehdi [00:32:56]:

The Office.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:32:56]:

Number six. The podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Omar Mehdi [00:33:01]:

The rest is football.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:02]:

And finally, number seven any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Omar Mehdi [00:33:06]:

I'd like to give a shout out to the American University of Kuwait with all the employees and faculty that have made me the person I am today, whether as a student or as an employee. I learned from them and learned from them on a daily basis, and I'm very grateful for everyone who has been a part of it. Last but definitely least, I'd like to give a shout out to my family who make me who I am and have to tolerate who I am too. So shout out goes to them.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:33:29]:

Thank you so much for sharing your perspective from Kuwait. I think it's always amazing to have more international voices on the show. The vast majority of our listenership comes from the US. But we're getting quite a bump coming in from Qatar lately. A few downloads here and there from many, many other countries too, but just really appreciative of you coming in and sharing your perspective on all of the transitions you've had over the years. Omar, if folks would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Omar Mehdi [00:33:56]:

They can find me on Instagram as Ometti number one and number 414, so Ometi 14 and email. I'm sure you can share that in the announcement.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:06]:

All right, Omar, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Omar Mehdi [00:34:10]:

Thank you, Jill. I really appreciate it and enjoyed the conversation. Hopefully I get to meet you one day in one of the conferences.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:18]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:34:43]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced hosted by Dr. Jill L. Creighton SAP Mi. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:35:05]:

Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.

In this episode of Student Affairs Voices from the Field, Dr. Jill Creighton welcomes Andrew Hua, a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner currently serving as the Director of Student Affairs Case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Andrew's journey into student affairs began as an undergraduate student involved in leadership activities, leading him to pursue graduate programs in student affairs. He initially worked in residential life roles and later transitioned into case management. The conversation delves into how case management adapted to remote and hybrid models during the COVID-19 pandemic, focusing on building strong relationships with students even in virtual settings.

Andrew shares his unexpected transition to the interim director role at UC San Diego and the challenges he faced during this significant shift in responsibility. Mentorship, support, and collaboration are highlighted as crucial aspects of professional transitions in student affairs. Andrew also discusses his decision to pursue a Doctorate in Education (EdD) while managing his leadership role and the challenges and rewards of such a commitment.

Throughout the episode, Andrew's journey exemplifies the importance of mentorship and support during career transitions in student affairs, as well as the significance of building rapport with students and colleagues, even in remote or hybrid work environments. He emphasizes the value of seeking and accepting support from mentors and peers when navigating transitions.

Please subscribe to SA Voices from the Field on your favorite podcasting device and share the podcast with other student affairs colleagues!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:02]:

Welcome to Student Affairs Voices from the Field, the podcast where we share your student affairs stories from fresh perspectives to seasoned experts. This is season nine on transitions in Student Affairs. This podcast is brought to you by NASPA. And I'm Dr. Jill Creighton. She her hers your essay Voices from the Field. Host welcome back to another episode of Essay Voices from the Field. Today we are heading to sunny Southern California to meet Andrew Hua.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:30]:

Andrew is a Chinese Vietnamese higher education scholar and practitioner. Currently, Andrew Hua serves as the Director of Student Affairs case Management Services at the University of California, San Diego. Before starting at UC San Diego, andrew served as a higher education professional at the University of California, Berkeley and Washington State University. He received his Master of Arts in Student Affairs administration degree from Michigan State. Go Green. Go Spartans. And he received his bachelor of arts in sociology degree from the University of California, Riverside Go. Highlanders.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:00:59]:

In addition, Andrew is the 2023 2025 Asian Pacific islander knowledge community cochair Andrew's various experiences in cris management, behavioral threat assessment, nonclinical case management, residential life, Greek life, student conduct conference services, and student government, along with his desire and passion to learn for developing students holistically as leaders, citizens and scholars in a safe and welcoming community is the foundation of his student affairs experience. Personally, he'd like to share that he's a huge Disney fanatic and loves photography. So you could say that his hobbies are going to Disneyland and taking pictures. However, he has other Hobies as well. He enjoys playing volleyball board and video games and going on foodie adventures and hiking. Andrew, so thrilled to have you on SA voices thank you.

Andrew Hua [00:01:40]:

I'm excited to be here with you as well.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:01:42]:

We learned from your bio you are not only the current co chair of the Apikc for NASPA, but you are also transitioning in other areas of life with a recent permanent position and also doctoral studies. So a lot going on for you in the transition space. But as we like to start each episode before we get into the journey, would love to know your come up story. How did you get to your current seat in higher ed?

Andrew Hua [00:02:05]:

Yeah, it's not a traditional pathway. I would have to say. I'll share that it started off traditional. As a young undergraduate student, I got involved in leadership, had the opportunity, had great mentors, advisors, and he said, have you ever thought about doing something like we do and doing student affairs? I was like, I have no idea what that is. And from there, it started with exploring graduate programs and then applying and getting in. So I went to Michigan State University, which was awesome. Go Spartans. And then from there, all my background has been residential life, so res life at Michigan State residence, life at Washington State residence, life at UC Berkeley, and then my transition from Berkeley to where I'm at now the University of California, San Diego, is case management.

Andrew Hua [00:02:54]:

It was a unique space. I wanted to get back to Southern California, and I started exploring different opportunities and found myself as a case manager. I saw transferable skills and over. In three years, there's been a lot of transitions from case manager to now serving as the director of the Student Affairs Case Management office.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:03:13]:

That's an incredible jump in three years to go from the individual contributor role to leading the entire team in such a short span when it was kind of a new functional area for you, but also kind of not, because what ResLife staff member is not doing case management and maybe just not calling it.

Andrew Hua [00:03:27]:

That 100% agree with you. I think Res Life has given me so many opportunities in understanding different areas and field of work. It felt really good to transition to that. But you're right. I would say it was one I think most folks face this. I transitioned in 2020 from Res Life to case management. A whole new field of work, kind of. And then from 2020 to 2023, I was working remotely hybrid, somewhat in person.

Andrew Hua [00:03:56]:

So lots of transitions and even transitioning to being interim director. Then director has its own transition too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:04:03]:

Let's talk about doing case management in the hybrid and remote space, because I think case management especially is one of the areas of student affairs where there may be some hesitations from leadership to be okay with that because of the sensitive nature of what these types of cases can be. We're seeing students who are having mental health emergencies. We're seeing students who have personal crises. And there can be something impersonal about doing that level of connection with another person through the Internet. So tell us about how you navigated that.

Andrew Hua [00:04:32]:

Yeah, it was very interesting. I think we've all adapted in 2020. Students had to adapt, professionals had to adapt, and the only way to connect was virtually. So I think we had to find a way to find that connection. And one of the connections I was able to build is how do we build rapport with students? Get to know them as if we were getting to know them as if they were sitting right across from us, getting to know who they are as a person, getting to know what their interests were, understanding what their challenges are and what are their primary and I guess primary priorities when they come meet with us. Right. It's not about let's talk about anything and everything. It's about what do you need at this moment? And I think that's where I felt the students felt like they were being heard.

Andrew Hua [00:05:13]:

We've continued to do hybrid now because that's what the students want. We've done assessment. They've said majority of time we would like to have zoom. Do we do offer in person. But the students choose that because it's convenient. It allows them to be in the space that they're most comfortable, not in an office that they're not familiar with. And they also get to choose the time much more conveniently to them. They have to walk across campus, take in travel time.

Andrew Hua [00:05:37]:

So I think all things that I think about leadership, my leadership and my supervisors, when we have conversation about how do we conduct our work, if the students feel safe in their space, there's less risks of them spiraling or their mental health being flared up, and we're able to kind of navigate that with them. Of course, we do run into some of the situations where students do end up having a cris over the phone or over zoom, but we have our resources intact, right? That's where we'll de escalate. We'll do our best to contact resources off the side, whether it's contact another team member via teams, zoom, et cetera, to help us get the resources to the student if we know where the student is at that moment.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:19]:

So it's allowed you to work faster? In some ways, yeah.

Andrew Hua [00:06:22]:

More efficient and effective ways at times.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:06:24]:

You mentioned that you took on an interim position before becoming the director. How did that know?

Andrew Hua [00:06:30]:

That was a unique situation. I was not expecting. I did my role as the inaugural case manager and outreach specialist at UC San Diego. And my role. I was learning, and I felt really comfortable after a year. And I was ready to meet for my annual performance evaluation with my supervisor and say, like, I'm ready for more. Ready to look at what does it mean to be a case manager that takes on the designee responsibilities of my director when they're out of the office. And then I went into that meeting, and my director shared, you know what? I have some news to share with you.

Andrew Hua [00:07:02]:

I have actually accepted another position. I'm like, I didn't even get a chance to share about my goals for the next year, et cetera, because the next thing that came up was, Andrew, we've talked to leadership, and we think you'd be great to serve as the interim director. And I was shocked. I was like, it was one year in. Granted, I received positive feedback for my performance throughout, but I was not expecting that. So I had a moment of pause before I actually accepted.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:27]:

Think the more realistic way is you were freaking shook.

Andrew Hua [00:07:32]:

You are absolutely correct. I was I was not expecting I was like, I've done one year in this field, they're asking me to be interim director. I was like, okay, let's chat about that. What does that look like? So I was shook.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:07:43]:

That is a really different conversation than.

Andrew Hua [00:07:45]:

The one you expected to have 100%. So granted, it was a great opportunity. And I did get to sit down and talk about, like, I really enjoyed working with my supervisor. And I said, I will accept it under one condition, is that you continue to serve as a mentor. And that the leadership that is still here that I will report to, also will serve as mentors too. Not just supervisors, but mentors to mold me into a great leader. Why take on the interim role?

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:15]:

That is a really amazing ask. We talk a lot in negotiation skills about things you can ask for that is not necessarily based salary, like vacation days and other types of things. But asking for someone to serve as a mentor is a really great pro tip, especially if you're taking on something that maybe you have your own reservations about.

Andrew Hua [00:08:33]:

Yeah, 100%. And I can tell you, they all agreed. They're like, absolutely. We will continue to serve as mentors and consult as you navigate this water until this day. I still have mentoring moments with them. Like every month, we have something scheduled with my previous supervisor and the leadership here at UC San Diego. So it's not gone. It still continues, even though I have taken on the permanent role.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:08:56]:

When you take on an interim role, and especially in the way that it was offered to you, it doesn't really give the team a lot of transparency. That can feel a little bit scary to the team when all of these changes are happening suddenly. How did you navigate the waters of moving from a fellow case manager to supervising others? Who were your direct peers and maybe had no idea this was coming?

Andrew Hua [00:09:15]:

Yeah, that was a tricky area to kind of navigate. But in much reflection, I did inquire why me? Why my position? Why am I being selected? I think that was important for me to understand. And what was shared with me was my inaugural role. The student affairs case manager and outreach specialist. That was the starting point. The future and strategic plan was eventually this role would become the Assistant Director or would eventually become the designee overall for any Director responsibilities. When the Director was out and the entire team knew that when they did their search for the position, the entire team knew that the Student Affairs Case Manager and Outreach Specialist role was going to evolve into something of leadership. So I think that's when it made me feel a bit more comfortable with knowing that the team knew this.

Andrew Hua [00:10:05]:

They all had opportunities to also apply for the position and show interest. I think the other piece for me is I took it in my own responsibility to connect with my colleagues. I checked in with them and shared hey, of course, when the announcement was made, I connected with them afterwards and said, I wanted to check in with you. How are you feeling about the decision? What are some challenges that may be coming up, or how can I best support you in this interim phase? My colleagues actually embraced me. They're very happy. They're like, we are so happy that we have an interim director. We've seen what this department has been like when there is an interim director, and some of them shared with me that they're glad that they didn't want it. We had no plans.

Andrew Hua [00:10:48]:

They did not want to be the room director. So glad you accepted. We will happily work with you. And I think the year that I got to spend with them was awesome. We collaborated on so many projects, so they knew who I was, they knew how I worked, and in no way, shape, or form was their conflict. It was all collaborative and learning, and most of them had skills that I learned from that helped me kind of build on the interim position.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:11]:

The interim year is starting to come to a close. It's time to think about whether or not that permanent position is something you want to do or don't want to do, because you had the opportunity to learn over the course of that year. Tell us about how you made the decision that, yes, you do want to go for the permanent position.

Andrew Hua [00:11:27]:

Yeah, that was a lot of thinking. I knew when I accept interim role, it was also a place of, like, I feel like I'm interviewing for this position too.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:11:39]:

For a whole year.

Andrew Hua [00:11:40]:

For a whole year. And I also was in a place of, I'm going to look at this opportunity as interim to decide whether I would actually enjoy this work. I was going to look at this interim opportunity to also understand if this will propel me for future professional opportunities. And I think both were yes. Right at the end of the day, I enjoyed the work. I enjoyed that this pathway was probably going to lead to new opportunities for my next career step. I enjoyed working with the staff that helped support students. I do miss working with students quite often, but this gives me a different level of work, and there's a different type of feeling when I'm able to support my staff and they are coming back.

Andrew Hua [00:12:22]:

During our Kudo sessions. We appreciate your leadership. We appreciate the opportunity to work with you and your consultation. These are folks that have done case management much longer than I have. Some of my colleagues come from a social work background, and when I am able to provide my expertise and we are working together to provide an interdisciplinary or multidisciplinary approach, it feels good. So I think overall, those are a couple of things that came to mind.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:12:47]:

You decide to go for the role, you do have to do a full, real search to get the position. What was that like to go from being a person who was leading the team to a person who is now interviewing for your own job again with that team and with your supervisors?

Andrew Hua [00:13:03]:

That was a fascinating experience. In my interim role, we had vacancies, and I had to hire a couple of folks as well. So I hired those folks, and then in turn, they have to decide whether I get to continue or they interview me. And my feelings were kind of mixed. Right. Is that there's a fear because as an internal candidate, they get to see everything. As much as we'd like to ensure that it's unbiased process in any hiring, recruitment, there's some bias that I believe does permeate into the space of like it comes into feedback and how we see others. But overall I'm laying out there and they can see everything, whether I present it in the interview or if they've seen it in the past in the work that I've done.

Andrew Hua [00:13:43]:

I think the other piece was also excitement. It was an opportunity for me to share the great work that we've done and share where we can go. Because I have had some time internally to think about strategically, if I were to take on the interim director position, lead this department at full capacity, where could it really be? So those were kind of the two mixed feelings. I was going in and then of course, it's kind of awkward going in and you see all the familiar faces and you have to like, let me tell you how I do my job, or how I think the job can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:11]:

Be done, or here's how I think I do the job. And then maybe what they're receiving from you is not aligned with their experience with you. It's a weird place to navigate.

Andrew Hua [00:14:20]:

Yeah, absolutely. Every has their perceptions and thoughts. So yeah, it's a unique experience to be in.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:14:27]:

You get the position, you're sitting in that seat now. What was the transition like for you from moving from the interim space to moving to the full time space?

Andrew Hua [00:14:35]:

I'll be very honest, it wasn't too big of a transition. I felt like I was already doing the role at full capacity. If anything, I felt comfortable making long term decisions. So there were things that we tested out in the interim. I was like, we're just doing this interim, we're going to pilot it during the interim. But now coming out of interim and being the full time official director, I was like, it worked, let's make it official.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:00]:

Stick it.

Andrew Hua [00:15:01]:

Yeah, let's stick with it, put it into place, iron it out, cement it in. And those practices are in and they run so efficiently and effectively. So I think most of the part it's just like, okay, now I can put yes permanent stamp on it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:15]:

All the while you're doing this interim position, this job search internally, you're also pursuing the Edd, which is taking up a ton of time and energy. How's that going? And how the heck are you balancing that with taking on this brand new and very big job?

Andrew Hua [00:15:32]:

I don't know what I was thinking.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:15:35]:

I think someone may have cautioned you in that regard.

Andrew Hua [00:15:39]:

I've had great mentors who cautioned, but also said that they would support me in whatever decision I go with. And I will say there were a lot of things that were coming to mind. I had applied during my interim phase and I got in during my interim phase and I said yes to the Edd. So it was kind of like a weird situation where I said yes to Edd, even though I knew I didn't have the official position, because I was like, this is always something I wanted to do. I always wanted to get my doctorate. I wanted to also get back into classroom and learn. I also wanted to be innovative. And then some of that is for me as an individual, I needed some structured learning and structured growth opportunities, and the Ed program provided that.

Andrew Hua [00:16:23]:

And I think it came down to be like the reverse round. Like, I am in the Edd. Do I take on this director role permanently? Because I could have gone back and been the assistant director. Because during my interim role, I also made some changes to my old position as strategically set in stone in the past. So, yeah, I was like, I said yes to the Edd. I feel good about the director role. I'm going to say yes to this, and I will say I have not regretted it. It has been tough, it has been exhausting, but I have not regretted the decision because I honestly think it has only made me a better leader and a better director and a better student affairs professional.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:03]:

What are your strategies for finding time to be a person or to take care of yourself while you're doing these things? For those of you who can't see Andrew put out his.

Andrew Hua [00:17:14]:

You know, that's a good question and a hard question. I think I started off pretty strong in my first year of my doctorate and also the official director role by sticking to a routine. And I had support from my supervisors and leadership. Right. It's at 05:00 p.m.. There's no contact for me. We are non clinical case management and work related stops at five. And I've seen this where my leadership has told other leaders on campus, like, you will not hear from Andrew until he comes in at 08:00.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:17:44]:

A.m., that is amazing support.

Andrew Hua [00:17:46]:

Yeah. When I saw that email, I was like, I feel I can fully put my work from eight to five and really be myself after that time. Right. And I think the balance after 05:00 is where does education and fun time go? And that's been a bit of a challenge. But my first year again, right, I had a structured set up. I had a number of hours. I would do some studying, and then after that, I can watch TV, I can play games, I can do whatever. Of course, schedules change up where friends come in town and we make modifications.

Andrew Hua [00:18:16]:

But I think that's the biggest thing is that my leadership supported me in my academic journey and I was dedicated to finding balance in my life. Now year two, and now almost going to year three, there's been a couple of changes, transitions, but all still the same goal of trying to be like, no, at five, I'm done 08:00. I'll come back the next day and then stick to my studies at the evening as much as I can.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:40]:

And we're looking at Dr. Hua 2024, right?

Andrew Hua [00:18:42]:

Oh, you know, possibly if I really hunker down, it could be 2024. If not, it will be early 2025. So fingers crossed.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:53]:

We'll say hashtag Dr. Hua class of 2025 or sooner.

Andrew Hua [00:18:58]:

Yes, I will take it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:18:59]:

You're also taking on the role of running for and being elected the co chair of the NASPA Apikc while you're doing this interim and now director role and while you're doing this Edd program. So you just kind of were like, bring it on. I want all the things tell us about that journey.

Andrew Hua [00:19:17]:

I feel like you got my resume somewhere. Yeah. I'll be very honest. All these decisions were also encouragement from mentors people I respect, and also during my interim phase, which is very unique for those who know how KC election works. There's, in between KC chair appointments, they do an election. So you have elect year if you are selected. And during that time, I was interim and, you know, exploring opportunities. I had people saying, you would be awesome.

Andrew Hua [00:19:48]:

You should nominate yourself to go be a co chair. We have another colleague that would be awesome to team up with. So having spoken to my co chair, who is Michelle Chan now, and we found some common ground and some excitement behind potentially being co chairs, and we went for it. I was like, in a day, someone else probably will nominate themselves, we will go through the ballot and I might not get it, and that's fine. Why not put my name in the hat, see what happens? Little did I know, name got pulled. Yep. I am now the co chair. And I was like, oh, boy.

Andrew Hua [00:20:24]:

So I took the year of being a chair elect for KC as seriously as possible and learned as much as I can. It is a lot of work. Kudos to many of my previous Apikc, NASPA Case, NASPA Apikc co chairs. Y'all do a lot that is not seen. So kudos to those folks and how do I manage it all? I try to find a balance with my co chair, and I go back to previous co chairs and be like, give me your tips. What have you done? What can I do better? So it's a lot.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:20:52]:

I think what we're hearing from you is that the leadership in the KC space is truly a service to the profession. I know that when we think about leadership development theory and different ways of leadership, oftentimes we think of the figurehead as having decision making authority and number of other things. But while that is true, especially in the KC space. The corralling and consensus building is really one of the most important things that the KC chair can do. I always view you all as the stewards of the KC for the time that you're elected. I talked to Shakura Martin about their journey to the NASA Board chair recently. They said it's a stewardship of the organization, it's not Shakura's agenda. And the same thing is true for the KC roles.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:21:32]:

It's Andrew's Stewardship of the KC. Not Andrew's Agenda for the KC.

Andrew Hua [00:21:36]:

It truly is not my agenda. The leadership team are great folks who are motivated, excited, who want to give back, who want to engage. So it's really supporting some of their ideas. And of course, our constituency, when the constituency speaks and shares their ideas, we'll both look at ways on how we can incorporate, how we can make it come to life. So truly, I think the other way I navigate is taking on this co chairship is my amazing leadership team does amazing job. They are awesome. So their excitement, their drive also excites me and pushes me to continue to push forward with all the responsibilities of being a co chair 100%. It is not my agenda.

Andrew Hua [00:22:16]:

It is all about what our community needs.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:22:18]:

You have been a tremendous guest for the theme of transitions. Given all of the transitions going on in your world, what advice do you have for listeners who are going through their own transitions in their professional life, in their service life, or in their life life?

Andrew Hua [00:22:33]:

I think for me, the biggest thing I learned is not to do it alone. Every transition comes with its challenges. And for those who are great higher ed and student affairs folks, challenge and support, right? Balance it out. Find the support to help navigate those challenges. I have mentors that are outside of this country that I connect with that help support me as well. So I would say don't do it alone. And you have people around you that are rooting for you to go through that transition and they'll be right there beside you.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:23:01]:

It's time to take a quick break and toss it over to producer Chris to learn what's going on in the NASPA world.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:07]:

Thanks, Jill. So excited to be back in the NASPA world and as always, there's a ton of things happening in NASPA and I always love being able to share with you some of the great things that are happening. 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs is coming up January 25 to 27th in Atlanta, Georgia. The NASPA Institute for New AVPs is a foundational three day learning and networking experience designed to support and develop AVPs in their unique and challenging roles on campus. The Institute is appropriate for AVPs and other senior level number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer and who have been serving in their first AVP or number two position for not longer than two years. It sounds like something that you would love to be a part of. To learn more about, go to the NASPA website under Events and click on 2024 NASPA Institute for New AVPs. So, in January 2024, january 27 through the 29th in Atlanta, Georgia, is the 2024 NASPA AVP Symposium.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:18]:

The NASPA AVP Symposium is a unique and innovative three day program designed to support and develop AVPs and other number twos in their unique campus leadership roles. Leveraging the vast expertise and knowledge of sitting AVPs, the Symposium will provide high level content through a variety of participant engagement oriented session types. This professional development offering is limited to AVPs and other number twos who report to the highest ranking student affairs officer on campus and have substantial responsibility for divisional functions. Additionally, Vice Presidents for Student Affairs and the equivalent who are presenting during the Symposium may also register at a discounted rate and attend April 20 eigth through the 30th of 2024 in Doha, Qatar, is the 18th Annual Manassa NASPA Conference. The Manassa NASPA Conference provides student affairs practitioners with the knowledge and skills to effectively address and support college students. Higher education is witnessing a wide array of challenges, especially in the area in the era of fast technological evolution. Thus, this three day conference by NASPA and the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia Manassa area is an opportunity to connect with colleagues regionally and abroad to talk about these emerging technologies. The conference is going to provide space for discussing innovative ideas, adaptive approaches, use of technology, best practices, lessons learned, and provide tools to understand the next generation of student affairs.

Christopher Lewis [00:25:57]:

If you want to know more about this great conference and travel to the Middle East to meet so many of your colleagues, go to the NASPA website and check it out for yourself. Every week we're going to be sharing some amazing things that are happening within the association. So we are going to be able to try and keep you up to date on everything that's happening and allow for you to be able to get involved in different ways. Because the association is as strong as its members and for all of us, we have to find our place within the association, whether it be getting involved with a knowledge community, giving back within one of the centers or the divisions of the association. And as you're doing that, it's important to be able to identify for yourself where do you fit? Where do you want to give back? Each week. We're hoping that we will share some things that might encourage you, might allow for you to be able to get some ideas that will provide you with an opportunity to be able to say, hey, I see myself in. That knowledge community. I see myself doing something like that or encourage you in other ways that allow for you to be able to think beyond what's available right now.

Christopher Lewis [00:27:10]:

To offer other things to the association, to bring your gifts, your talents to the association and to all of the members within the association, because through doing that, all of us are stronger and the association is better. Tune in again next week as we find out more about what is happening in NASPA.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:31]:

Wonderful as always to hear from you, Chris, on what's going on in and around NASPA. Andrew, we have reached our Lightning round segment. I have seven questions for you in 90 seconds.

Andrew Hua [00:27:42]:

Oh, boy. I'm ready. Here we go.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:44]:

Question number one if you were a conference keynote speaker, what would your entrance music be?

Andrew Hua [00:27:49]:

I would choose finesse by Bruno Mars. I don't just I feel like I would walk up with some finesse.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:27:55]:

Number two, when you were five years old, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Andrew Hua [00:27:59]:

Oh, when I grew up, I'll be very honest. I wanted to be a dinosaur. I wanted to walk around like a trex.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:07]:

You can still do that?

Andrew Hua [00:28:08]:

I still do sometimes.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:10]:

Number three, who's your most influential professional mentor?

Andrew Hua [00:28:13]:

That's a difficult one. I have a lot of mentors that have inspired me to do many different things, so I unfortunately, cannot just provide you a name.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:22]:

Number four. Your Essential Student Affairs.

Christopher Lewis [00:28:24]:

Read.

Andrew Hua [00:28:24]:

I'm reading too much right now, so there's too much in my doctoral program to read, so I can't pick one. Sorry.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:30]:

Number five, the best TV show you binged during the pandemic.

Andrew Hua [00:28:34]:

I would have to say I've jumped back into Criminal Minds, and Criminal Minds is just something I really enjoy.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:40]:

Number six, the podcast you've spent the most hours listening to in the last year.

Andrew Hua [00:28:44]:

In the last year, honestly, the quickest thing for news for me is up first. I like to try to get little bits and get on it.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:28:51]:

And finally, number seven, any shout outs you'd like to give, personal or professional?

Andrew Hua [00:28:55]:

Personally, I would probably just shout out my parents. I wrote it in my application. I write it in my dissertation everywhere and my work, that they are truly who inspired me to be a disruptor in education and how to disrupt some of the systematic challenges and systems of oppression. So they're my personal shout out and professional shout out. I would have to say there are a number of folks from Glinda Guzman, Sonny Lee to Alison Satterland, all folks who have inspired me. And if I'm able to shout out you, Jill, you have influenced me in many ways and also inspired me to do many things. So those are a couple folks.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:29:34]:

It's been a wonderfully, rich conversation to talk to you about your transitions today. If others would like to reach you after the show, how can they find you?

Andrew Hua [00:29:42]:

If folks want to reach me, there are two ways I recommend finding me on LinkedIn. You can try to find me with my LinkedIn name, which is H-U-A-N-D-R-E-W just my last name, hua. And then Andrew. Or you can contact me via email, which is ah u a@ucsd.edu Andrew.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:00]:

Thank you so much for sharing your voice with us today.

Andrew Hua [00:30:03]:

Thank you. This was great. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:06]:

This has been an episode of SA Voices from the Field, brought to you by NASPA. This show is always made possible because of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you continue to listen to us season after season. If you'd like to reach the show, you can always email us at savoices@naspa.org or find me on LinkedIn. By searching for Dr. Jill L. Craighton. We welcome your feedback and topic and especially your guest suggestions.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:31]:

We'd love it if you take a moment to tell a colleague about the show. And please, like, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you're listening now. It really does help other student affairs professionals find the show and helps us become more visible in the larger podcasting community. This episode was produced and hosted by Dr. Jill L. Craighton. Produced and audio engineered by Dr. Chris Lewis.

Dr. Jill Creighton [00:30:54]:

Guest coordination by Lu Yongru. Special thanks to University of Michigan, Flint for your support as we create this project. Catch you next time.