Sauna Talk #001: Tom Rolando

Today on the Sauna Talk bench, we welcome three guests who are aligned to helping veterans through sauna as a means of healing our heroes.

Their stories are heartfelt, their passions are clear. And for those of us who know sauna, we know that their purpose is meaningful and their success rate undeniable. (ie sauna is good for us!)!

Who is Healing Heroes Saunas? The co-founders, Mike and Josh: as introduction:

Mike Lotzer

On the right side of the bench we have, Mike Lotzer. Mike is the Lead Pastor of Mercy Road Church in Burnsville, MN and served in the Army Chaplain Corps. from 2004-2012. Stateside, Mike served as a Casualty Notification Chaplain, Special Troops Battalion Chaplain, and Marriage Strong Bonds Instructor.  Also, he deployed in the Iraq War.  

Mike has walked with soldiers, families, and loved ones through extreme pain both stateside and in combat zones. His experiences caring for dying soldiers have birthed a lifelong commitment to serve and empower Warriors and their families. Mike has been married to his wonderful wife Erica for 18 years. The couple have three children and live in Lakeville, MN. Mike has a B.A. in Comparative World Religion and Psychology from the University of Wisconsin, a Master of Divinity from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a Certification in Combat Medical Ministry and Suicide Prevention from the U.S. Army Medical Department.

Kirk

Center bench, we welcome back Kirk Jensen to Sauna Talk. Kirk is longtime host and fellow board member of the 612 Sauna Society. You can learn more about Kirk as he was a recent guest to the Sauna Talk podcast. Kirk spent 34 years in the Air Force. He retired as Lieutenant Colonel with +7,000 hours as a C-130 Navigator. Kirk participated in every conflict during that time. Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia. Kirk’s “day job” is flight simulator trainer for the Air Force.

Today, you can find Kirk either near the Minneapolis St Paul airport, where he runs Air Force flight training or alongside the 612 Sauna Society Sauna, where he serves as longstanding sauna host.

Josh

On the left side of the bench, we have Josh Meisberger (42). Josh has been married for 19 years and has 2 wonderful teenage boys. Currently living outside of Minneapolis in Apple Valley, Josh and family saunas frequently (3-5 times per week) enjoying their permanent wood fire sauna in the back yard of their home. Josh and family are active members at Mercy Road Church in Burnsville.

Josh spent 22 years in the military with 2 combat tours to Iraq before being medically retired for various military related injuries. Currently, Josh owns a construction company (Rare Homes Inc) where he and team do everything from small bathroom remodels all the way up to custom builds and commercial space work.

Mike and he more recently started Healing Heroes Saunas as a way to give back to the men and women who serve our communities in Hero rolls including Veterans, Police, Firefighters, and all first responder, along with their families. Mike and Josh are currently working on their 501c3 filing, as well as fundraising so that they can expand our reach providing hot and cold therapy. 

Josh and Mike are very close to finishing their second unit, which will immediately be deployed around the state of Minnesota. They have a long term goals of 5-10 units in the state of Minnesota, as well as being able to build more permanent saunas at their residence for Heroes on an application basis.  

Currently you can find them on Instagram @healingheroessaunas.

Today from any one of 22 saunas, we Sauna Talk from the Great Northern Sauna Village, Malcolm Yards, Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA.

“The Great Northern Sauna Village is a social and therapeutic experience hosted at Malcolm Yards. Visitors can immerse themselves in sauna culture by interacting with various Thermaculture traditions. And connecting with local sauna companies and builders. During 60-90- minute Steam Sessions, guests can explore various types of traditional wood-fired sauns. These include barrel, mobile, and backyard units; tent and floatings saunas. And a new shipping container event sauna for 20+ people. All this, while experiencing multiple forms of heat, steam, and aromatherapy with the cold contrast therapy of winter air and snow.”

The numbers speak for themselves: 22 saunas from over a dozen Saunapreneurs. Some of whom I’ve known, supported, and encouraged from back in the day when sauna in the public domain, even here in Minnesota’s sauna country, was fringe and not so enthusiastically embraced as today.

Sauna Talk glowing from the Sauna Village

You can see and feel the sauna glow. And as you listen along, you will be able to catch the spirit from a few of the people behind the scenes at the Great Northern Sauna Village. The event is three long weekends long. Here, we catch up with the folks today snap dab in the middle of the event on a chilly grey Saturday afternoon. Those interested in attending can catch the event during its last weekend, next weekend. Tickets are a reasonable $40, and available via the link supporting this podcast on SaunaTimes.com.

We start off this episode with Shaelyn from Superior Saunas, the mayor of the Great Northern Sauna Village. We meet up with Darin from Urban Wing, Jessie from Deep Wave. John from Superior Saunas, Nomad Phil. And Excelsior Saunas Jim, Matt from Superior Saunas, and a few other selected guests along the way.

Wherever this podcast may find you, I think you’ll enjoy getting to know what’s happening in this region. The boldly self proclaimed Sauna Capital of North America. Here is where you’ll find open arms, steam billowing, endorphins rushing, and cold water plunging.

Today we welcome back Dr. Charles Raison to this Sauna Talk podcast part 2.

I encourage you to check in with Part one, where Chuck and i work from the starting block about Sauna health benefits and research surrounding hypethermia and hot/cold contrast therapy.

In this episode, by design we go deeper.

We unpack hot cold therapy as a novel treatment for mental health.

101.3

101.3 isn’t just the radio frequency for a hit music station in the Twin Cities. We have foundational research surrounding the effects on the body and the mind of achieving this core body temperature. Ashley Mason’s work at University of California San Francisco is expanding upon the psychological and physiological effects of this level of heat stress when reaching this core body temperature. Physically, from, for example the standpoint of blood pressure and heart rate variability. Yet how do these physical changes affect people’s moods? Specifically, as a possible novel treatment in the area of depression, anxiety, and other mental health issues.

Totonu

The Japanese have a word for that nirvana feeling we get after a few sauna rounds and cold therapy action. They call it Totonu. And there is actually a published study on the neuro effects of sauna bathing. We link to this study on the Sauna Research Institute website as well as on SaunaTimes websites. In the study, it is recognized that sauna is an activity that promotes relaxation and health. Three cycles of sauna, cold, rest lowers your heart rate and makes you feel more relaxed. Intense feelings of happiness have been reported shortly after enjoying a hot sauna and cold water, what is known in Japan as the “totonou” state.

With this contrast therapy, we achieve a lower heart rate, changes of brain waves, and better metabolic health through the increase in brown fat production – known as “the good fat”. And one could argue that, for those horizontally challenged, sauna use raises heart rate to about the state we achieve with a fast walk. So there is a weight loss association to regular sauna use. But this is not something i’d get the scale out to rely upon.

The Vail Project – Eagle Valley

We discuss a “Top Flight Sauna” for Vail Health’s Behavioral Health Innovation Center. Right now in development, the CHILL’D Study (“Cold and Heat Investigation to Lower Levels of Depression”) will explore ways to optimize the proven benefits of hyperthermia for depression, including whether adding cold to heat will improve outcomes and whether hyperthermia can be effectively combined with standard antidepressants.  

Vail Health is especially interested in thermic bathing within ancient practices. Many of us listening enjoy Nordic style sauna, where we pay homage to the origins of the word sauna (Finland). And sometimes many spend a lot of effort scolding its improper pronunciation. Yet, for those of us that share and know that good feeling, the definition of sauna is arguably much more important than its pronunciation. And for that matter, the definition of sauna is universal and straightforward:

Sauna Definition: A room, often lined with wood, with a heat source that heats rocks to sufficient temperature to create steam when water is tossed on rocks.

So, for example, Temascal, Native American Sweat Lodge, Banya and venik treatments, are all ancient sauna sweat bathing practices.

Chris Lindley is Chief Population Health Officer, Vail Health and the Executive Director, Eagle Valley Behavioral HealthExecutive Director at Eagle Valley Behavioral Health. I will save his bio for what I hope to be a dedicated podcast interview with Chris. But a quick note: Chris’s education and passion revolve around improving the population’s health, emergency response, and wellness. Chris is a decorated combat veteran, receiving a Bronze Star and Presidential Citation while leading troops in Iraq in 2005.

The convergence of the Sauna Research Institute, Vail Health, and the work happening with Charles through Ashley in San Francisco, Chris and team at Vail Health, as well as at Harvard are exciting examples for all of us, that right now, what we all know to be true is being studied and researched.

Sauna is good for us!

Soon, as we continue to unpack and understand how.. and why.. and how much.. I will say, I hope you enjoy my visit with Dr. Charles Raison.. and Sauna on!

Today on the virtual smoke sauna bench, please welcome my friend Jarmo Hiltunen. Author of the brand new book: Building a Traditional Finnish Smoke Sauna.

I am overjoyed that for many, Jarmo will be your voice to the introduction to the wonderfulness of smoke sauna. Jarmo is a builder, but I would call him more of an artisan. Also, he is also a smoke sauna spiritual evangelist.

His book is now available on Amazon

As we type the words “smoke sauna” into the Amazon search bar, we have to sift our way through infrared “sauna” blankets and dozens of other misappropriations of the word “sauna” before finally finding this gem of a resource.

Many/most of us around the world have little knowledge or experience with smoke sauna. It’s not just buried within the search bar. And for some of us, being hidden and special is a nice place for smoke sauna to reside.

For smoke sauna is a deep in history, culture, and spirit. Yes, we have had many fragmentations of sauna. But, there will be minimal to no fragmentations of traditional smoke sauna. And thanks to this comprehensive work, Jarmo Hiltunen ensures us that the purity and authenticity of smoke sauna will remain with us forever.

I love that smoke sauna is hard to build. It takes commitment and cash. And these barriers help ensure that those willing to take on the task are both committed to the work. And dedicated to its reward.

This book helps us decide if we want to undertake the challenge. The book clearly helps us decide for ourselves if we are ready to undertake building our own smoke sauna. We Get a flavor of the potential satisfaction in the work, and if committed, be able to realize the amazing löyly and hot room microclimate that may await us at the end of the smoke sauna building journey.

Small world

I am blessed to have met Jarmo Hiltunen, the author, by upmost coincidence in a public (modified) smoke sauna in Helskinki, back in 2019. Despite living in separate continents, reading through his book, I feel once again that I am right there with him on the bench.

Buy this book. And whether you undertake your smoke sauna build or not, reading through the process will help you appreciate Jarmo’s dedication to smoke sauna. And that alone is worth having his book on your shelf.

Wishing you all good sauna. And thank you Jarmo for your hard work and dedication to making this book come to life.

Welcome to this Sauna Talk podcast episode with Nick Fox: Minnesota’s first Wim Hof certified instructor and baker of amazing homemade bread.

We communed in heat, cold plunge and nature in my backyard sauna recently and you’ll hear my interview with Nick in just a moment. But before then, I’d like to take you back to a dark and cold February night in Minnesota a few years ago when Nick first sat down to watch the VICE documentary on Wim Hof, the Ice Man. Inspired by the science and adventures in the cold with minimal clothing, Nick began taking cold showers and practicing breathwork the very next day. His experience with the Wim Hof Method (WHM) initiated Nick’s breathwork journey. In January of 2022 he went to Poland to complete his certification as a WHM Instructor, and later he became certified in the Oxygen Advantage. Now, he guides breathwork and coaches ice baths in workshops around the Midwest. 

Pulmonaut beginnings

Before becoming a full-time Pulmonaut, (a pulmonaut is simply someone who uses their breath as a tool for exploration and transformation) Nick taught Philosophy, History, and Art at both the high school and college level. He is also a Lieutenant Colonel in the Army Reserve, and spends his summers out in the field with the cadets at the Military Academy in West Point, NY. When he’s not playing Army, he’s writing and drawing with his young kids. 

Sauna Talk Podcast cold exposure breathwork guests

Those familiar with this podcast are familiar with a few other Sauna Talk guests from the world of cold exposure and breathwork. A few that come to mind include Harvey Martin, who currently is on staff breathing and contrast therapy-ing with the San Francisco Giants major league baseball team, Jesse Coomer, trainer, breathwork coach and author of two books on the subject, and Wim Hof himself, back in 2017. So feel free to dig back and check out these episodes in particular.

Back to Nick

Teaching people deep conscious breathing and cold exposure techniques is his new passion. You can visit his website foxfirebreathworks.com where you’ll be able to check out his upcoming workshops and classes. For example, in January 2024, it should be cold enough in Minneapolis for Nick’s winter swimming class at the Swedish Institute. He is mobilizing a kick ass wood fired mobile sauna (one that I actually had a hand in helping with with my friends Brad and Ben at Prairiewood Saunas, but that’s story for another day coming soon). Anyhow, Nick looks forward to helping you explore your inner strengths. And I am super happy to share some breathing on the bench with you and Nick Fox from FoxFire Breathworks. Welcome Nick to Sauna Talk!

Today we welcome a very special guest to Sauna Talk: Dr. Charles Raison. His biography is as follows:

Dr. Raison is a the Mary Sue and Mike Shannon Chair for Healthy Minds, Children & Families in the School of Human Ecology and a Professor in the Department of Psychiatry at the University of Wisconsin – Madison. Dr. Raison received his medical degree from Washington University in St Louis, Missouri, where he was elected to Alpha Omega Alpha and won the Missouri State Medical Association Award. He completed residency training at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute and Hospital in Los Angeles. In addition to his medical training, Dr. Raison obtained his Masters of English from the University of Denver.

Dr. Raison has written and published over 100 scientific papers as well over 20 review papers and editorials. Chapters he has written have been featured in over 30 books, and he has written two books, most recently The New Mind-Body Science of Depression, published by WW Norton in 2017. Dr. Raison’s publications have been cited over 14,000 times, with three publications having more than 1,000 citations. His H-index is 44. The recipient of several teaching awards, Dr. Raison has received research funding from the National Institute of Mental Health, National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. His visionary work focuses on the treatment of depression in response to illness and stress, translating neurobiological findings into novel interventions. In addition to his activities at University of Wisconsin-Madison, Dr. Raison is the mental health expert for CNN.com.”

Reference: UW-Madisonhttps://www.psychiatry.wisc.edu › staff › raison-charles

Sauna Talk excerpts

We discuss Charles’ academic and personal background, how he has been interested in World’s ancient practices including Buddist Tuumo meditation, where Tibetan monks are wrapped in cold wet blankets and through breathing and meditation, are able to warm themselves for a long period of time. The area around research and studies to treat depression are of special interest. Reaching a hypothermia state has proven health benefits. Dr. Raison’s 2010 depression study with 16 people, who reached 101.3 degrees f. shown a marketed decrease in depression. The participants actually lowered their internal body temperature.

The World leader in Hypothermia

We discuss other work and studies happening right now in the United States, through Harvard University and Massachusetts General. Also Ashley Mason’s work in San Francisco. More on this soon! The Vail sauna lab Eagle County Co. is an interesting place. The disparity of rich and poor, and people moving their and experiencing the Paradox of Paradise, are likely culprits that lead to the area having the highest suicide rate in the country.

Ashley Mason, UCSF. Heat has an antidepressant effect.

Transforming mental health

The good news is a private investment of $100mm towards a new hospital in Vail that is committed to transform mental health in this country. Providing equitable care for rich and non rich, integrating mind/body practices. Vail Health is set to be a world class research institute. Heat, thermal studies, psychedelic research are all areas of study. It is an exciting time for sauna research.

The CHILL study. Can you benefit from heat whether you are taking an antidepressant or not?

This episode tees the ball up for our follow up conversation which I will be equally excited to bring to you in the future.

So, for right now, I am pleased to present to you Dr. Charles Raison.

Welcome to this mini Sauna Talk episode from inside and around the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna was constructed as part of the RunningMan festival outside of Atlanta Georgia, this past weekend, mid October 2023.

I’ll try to connect the dots to how the World’s Largest Sauna came about. And it started with the folks at Embrace North, building a few saunas for the All Day Running organization. And as All Day Running began planning for the RunningMan festival, well, their experience with good heat and creative right brain thinking on the bench fostered a way to “scale” sauna.\

And we move over to All Day Running’s co founder Todd Ferneaux’s backyard. Here is where Todd built the mock prototype for the World’s Largest Sauna. I’ll spare the nuts and bolts of its creative construction, as you can listen to my recent podcast interview with Todd for more on that.

World’s Largest Sauna building

I was able to lend to help with some of the construction of the sauna and set up.

For now, though, I’d like to welcome you into the event: RunningMan. I attended for a few reasons, and one was to help share what I know about running the sauna stoves. I have used this same stove for 30 years. As elder statesman with more grey hair than most at the event, I was happy to help coach the stokers who became quick studies on stove operation. (note: you don’t have to go into the hot room to see how your stove is performing. If you see smoke coming out the chimney, it needs attending).

Runners and Sauna enthusiasts

Another reason why I was happy to attend RunningMan is to celebrate and experience all the goodness happening with the Venn diagram overlap of people into hot/cold contrast therapy and people into running. As we look at the overlap, the commonalities become clear.

Runners:

• know how to push the limits of human performance.
• are tuned into their bodies.. and their minds.
• get high on their own supply.
• are generally conscious folks who can feel when endorphins are rushing.
• know how good it feels the moment you stop banging your head against a wall.

All above also applies to all of us who dig sauna. And cold plunge, as peanut butter and jelly. Knowing our bodies, minds, spirits. Runners, generally, all dig sauna. And when they feel good heat, it’s all over.

So, in this episode you’ll hear from Todd at All Day Running, C T from Nomad Sauna, Tyler, one of the stokers, and a couple other guests, all of whom will give you a good flavor of what it’s like to be in and around the World’s Largest Sauna.

Today on the bench, we welcome Todd Furneaux who is spearheading the building of the World’s Largest Sauna. The sauna is being constructed as part of Running Man, a three day festival happening outside of Atlanta Georgia this mid October 2023.

During this episode, you’ll hear about Todd’s company and cohorts, All Day Running. And how the idea of building the World’s Largest Sauna was surely fostered on the sauna bench or in the cold plunge. As with endorphins running and community spiriting, this is the environment for Sauna Talk and crazy out there thinking.

Atlanta steeplechase. Grass track. Sauna Village, fun zone, DJs, live music, conferences,

October 17, 18, 19 event.

Sauna can hold. 250 – 350 people at a time.

Mechanics of World’s Largest Sauna

Specially designed Todd Right Brain Thinking:

• 3,000 square feet in modular squares using 4’x4′ framing material.
• Side walls: sauna tent material 3 ply oxford. 9′ tall 20′ wide.
• Flooring: cedar flooring.
• Roof: Greenhouse style sauna inspiration from NorthUp in Minneapolis. Clear polycarbonate roofing. Same material It’s rated to over 550f. to melt it. The material let’s the light in. There is a greenhouse effect with clear polycarbonate as roofing. On sunny Atlanta days, it’s about 120f. before lighting to the stove.
• Sauna stoves: 13 large Kuumas. oven for every 200 sf.

Prototype: 200 sf sauna 20’x10′. A great way of testing the temperature of things. How the size of the panels.

Final dimensions of the world’s largest sauna

65′ x 45′ with extra 200 – 400′ square feet entry and exit.

Exercising your immune system

Running and Sauna.. they go hand in hand.

Today on the virtual sauna bench, i’m pleased to bring you Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, author of the new book Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat.

We join Emma from her home in North London. And, we hear from Emma how the idea for this book was seeded through the pandemic. Plus, how the health benefits of sauna helped make the book happen.

In the book, Emma does a great job outlining the reported health benefits of sauna, and we touch upon a few of these during our interview.

You wil be transported to how Emma and photographer Maija Astikainen became fast friends, collaborators, and travel partners through the Nordic regions of Europe.

Sauna: The Power of Deep Heat is shipping starting mid September. Pre orders are available now via Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

Editor’s note

During Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly, we need to dive deeper into Sauna Brain! What it is and why it’s good, but I forgot where I left my towel and water bottle.

Glenn’s notes

I found myself reaching for a pen many times while reading this new book! So, a few excerpts and notes include:

Health Benefits: Good reasons to roast

Sweat

“Sauna makes us sweat which is a good gym work out for the organs and the blood vessels,” says Hans Hägglund MD, PhD, a medical doctor and professor at Uppsala University in Sweden.

Sauna Detox

We produce about 0.5kg of sweat in a 30-minute
sauna, and while around 97 per cent of this
is water, studies have shown that some toxins
and heavy metals are excreted too, and sweat
does this more effectively than urine.

Good Stress

Hormetic stress is “good stress”. Things like
jumping in a cold pond, or competing in a
marathon, or making a really complicated cake
are examples of good stress.

Temperatures of around 38°C to 40°C stimulate
the immune system

A few other sauna health benefits from our Sauna Talk: Emma O’Kelly

Inflammation

Charles Raison MD, professor of psychiatry
at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (USA),
is an active proponent of this theory. “Since the
1980s, we have known that depressed people
are hotter and find it harder to sweat,” he says.
Plus, “The pathways that control our ability to cool
off overlap with pathways that regulate our
mood. Body temperature and mood are
directly linked.”

Pain relief

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. So, for those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Immunity

Because blood vessels relax and dilate
in a sauna and blood flow increases to muscles
and joints which can in turn alleviate pain and
stiffness. What’s more, sauna causes levels of
beta-endorphins – important pain relievers – to
rise. For those living with pain for which there
is no cure, such as rheumatoid arthritis, regular
sauna sessions can provide immense relief.

Blood Pressure

Laukkanen’s seminal study found that those
who took sauna baths four to seven times a
week cut their risk of high blood pressure by
almost half compared to once-a-week sauna
bathers. Why? Well, the most common theory
is that the increase in body temperature during
sauna causes blood vessels to dilate, which can
increase blood flow and improve the function of
the endothelium – the tissue that lines the inside
of blood vessels.

“Nature teaches more than
she preaches. There are no sermons
in stones. It is easier to get a spark
out of a stone than a moral.”
John Burroughs,
The Writings of John Burroughs, 1913