Curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned. So be curious!

Sometimes, we meet people who make us pause for a moment and ask how we are building the life that we want to live. It is not about mimicking their lives. It is about understanding how they have stopped what they’re doing and begun reflecting on whether this was a life they wanted. That’s what happened when I met Dr. Deborah Clary. We met through the Women Business Collaborative (WBC). Deb and I were involved in WBC and found ourselves sharing our life journeys in different discussions. She was the right person to bring onto our podcast to share her career and how she has taken a turn in new directions. As you listen in, think about your own life.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

An accomplished woman leader not afraid to learn new things

Dr. Debra Clary is the Founder and CEO of Elevascent, a personal growth and performance development company focused on helping individuals and teams accelerate growth through curiosity. This experience comes from three decades of executive leadership roles at Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel’s and Humana. In addition, Dr. Clary is also an author, global speaker, playwright, off-Broadway performer and an award-winning film producer. She holds a doctorate in leadership and organizational development from George Washington University, and received the Ralph Stone Leadership Award for exemplary leadership. She is also a board director for Health E-Commerce.

In our podcast, we talk about women discovering their purpose and not letting others define them. And we share Debra’s life story as a model for you, our audience, to think about as you step along on your pathway. Own your career, and enjoy it.

Contact Debra

You can connect with Debra on LinkedIn, Facebook, and her website, or email her at debra@debraclary.com.

Want more inspiring stories of women owning their careers and taking charge of their lives? Here are some of our favorites:

• Shellye Archambeau Is Unapologetically Ambitious And Shows Us How We Can Be Too
• Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business
• Sarah Soule—Busting Those Stereotypes of Women
• Lisa Caputo—Smashing The Myths Of What Women Can Accomplish

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here 

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. As you know, I’m a corporate anthropologist, and I specialize in helping organizations change and particularly the people inside them. And I really like to go looking for people to interview. And many of you send me people to interview. So it’s so much fun to share. I look for people who can help you see, feel and think in new ways.

And I use those words intentionally because you decide with the eyes and the heart. So how something feels is going to help you decide how to think about it. But what matters to me is that unless I can open your mind to see opportunities, possibilities, and be curious, you are going to see what’s all around you and opportunities are all there. So today I have a wonderful, wonderful woman to come and share with you her wisdom around curiosities.

Debra Clary is a Doctor of Organizational Design, but she’s also someone who has culled her skills inside corporate and has now launched herself outside corporate as an entrepreneur to help many companies begin to see themselves through a fresh lens. Very anthropological. Let me tell you a little bit more about her, and then I’ll ask her to talk about her own journey, because she’s had a really important juncture point.

Right now, Dr. Clay is a purpose-driven leader with a compelling message to share. Her enthusiasm lies in inspiring leaders and organizations in achieving business success through their enhancement of strategic alignment, team dynamics, and fostering a culture of curiosity. Now, that is a really big idea, bringing a wealth of experience from her roles and operations, strategy, marketing and people development at prominent companies such as Frito-Lay, Coca-Cola, Jack Daniel’s and Humana. 

Debra brings incredible business insights and her dedication is evident in her commitment to working with leaders who aspire to elevate their impact and contribution to their organizations. So she’s now writing a book, and she also is performing her own one-person play called A Curious Woman. And she did it Off Broadway, and I watched it streaming, and you can watch it coming up, too. And she’s doing it again in Louisville, and she is having a wonderful time celebrating her own success as a curious woman. Debra, thank you for joining me today.

Debra Clary: My pleasure.

Andi Simon: You know, it’s always fun when we share our stories. We’re storytellers. We’re also storymakers. And when you and I did our fireside chat at the Louisville Leadership Center, we really had a good time getting to know how we each have grown and how our own experiences have opened up opportunities for us. But for our listeners and our viewers who aren’t familiar with you, talk about your own journey and why this is such an important point for you. It’s a tipping point, opening up a whole new world of opportunity. Who is Debra? 

Debra Clary: Oh, well, that’s a big question, Andi, but let me let me take a shot at this is. I was the first person in my family to go to college, graduate from college, and went on to get a Masters in Business. And my first job was driving a route truck for Frito-Lay.

Andi Simon: I always laugh when you tell me that. You say it so much better than I could.

Debra Clary: And my parents were like, Did you really need six years of higher education to do this? But I also recognized that it was an opportunity to start with a great company and they started everybody on a route truck. And the one question I asked was, Are there other women doing this? And they said, Yes. And I said, May I ride with that individual one day to see if I think I can do this? And then I did.

And so I spent nearly a decade at Frito-Lay, not on the route truck. I spent about nine months on the route truck in the city of Detroit and then evolved into sales management and then marketing and actually was one that was on the team that launched Flamin Hot, which is now a $1 billion brand for Frito-Lay. It’s where I really learned how to market to consumers. How do you understand what consumers need?

And from there, I was recruited away by Coca-Cola. I spent almost a decade at Coca-Cola in marketing roles where I got my experience of global marketing and how to really manage a global account. From there I went to Brown-Forman, where I was the VP of Strategy. I worked in the wine division, which was a really tough job, Andi. I mean, I had to spend all this time in Napa Valley tasting wines, trying to understand positioning. It was really tough, but I got through it and then I went to Jack Daniel’s.

I got really intrigued with culture because I had worked for Fortune 40 companies, and then I went to work for a publicly traded company, but it was still managed by the family, the Brown family. And there were just different dynamics, different cultures that I didn’t quite recognize because of my background. And so I said, I’m curious. I want to understand people and culture. I want to understand how I can adapt to different cultures and how I can become a better leader.

So I was reading the Wall Street Journal in which George Washington University had an ad in there that they had this cohort program for people that wanted to better understand leadership and culture. Exactly what I was looking for at the doctoral level. And so I went to my boss and said, I’m really passionate about this. And he said, Then go do it. And they completely supported me and funded that.

So while sipping wine in Napa Valley, I was also going to school full time. So full time mother, full time employee and then a full time student. And how I did that is, once a month I flew to Washington, DC. I went to school 12 hours Friday, 12 hours Saturday and then I flew home Sunday morning, so that I could be with my children. And I did that for three years. Wrote my dissertation on women in leadership. I just had this real passion on what are the differences in women leadership and how we can continuously support women to step into these really big roles.

And then I was recruited away by Humana, a healthcare company. And at first I said, There is no way I’m going into healthcare. I mean soda and snacks and now alcohol. Healthcare just did not seem to fit me. But, they said, You have an opportunity that we are starting a Leadership Institute. With your marketing, your business, your experience, and now with this academic degree, you’re the perfect person to help us change our culture. And I was really drawn to those words of changing culture because I had experienced different cultures, but I wasn’t quite sure how to do it. I had the academic side of it. I had some opinions, but now I was going to take this step and really put it into play.

And so for my first nine years at Humana, I ran the Leadership Institute, and we did everything from assessments to development of our top executives. And then we got really brave and we took our learning outside of the company. And we spent time in Europe and in the US and offered how to understand the healthcare system because we really recognize that if the healthcare system is going to get better and have better outcomes, everyone in the community needs to be connected to it.

And we started that with a simulation and we had much success. And then what happened is, we at Humana, we got a new CEO and he called me one day and said, Can you come talk? He said, I’m going to be doing some significant changes on my team. They’re going to be off boarding and onboarding, and I need you embedded in the team. You know, 24-7. Your role is to be with us all the time.

And so for the last eight years I did that: helping them understand team dynamics, leading their strategy sessions, all their off sites and really about team dynamics and how you get better as a team. And then that drives the business results. And then about a year ago, I said, Wow, I’m still curious on how I can scale my thought leadership outside of the corporate world. And so I made this transition about a year ago.

The number one thing I did, as you mentioned: I wrote and performed a one-woman show. I never did that in my life. Had never performed in that way. I’d done keynotes, but never an actual play. And I surrounded myself with people that knew how to do that. And did a sold out show in New York. And now we have one coming up here next month in Louisville, Kentucky. So that is a little bit about my four decades in corporate America. And now my launch to scale my knowledge and my curiosity to other organizations.

Andi Simon: I bet. I mean, there are many things that we can talk about today, but I bet that the audience, our listeners, are curious about a couple of things. One of which is, how do you grow like you have grown? Because the changes in places have not simply been taking what you were and applying them. It’s changing who you were when you’re applying them. This is an ongoing theme.

I’m finding the people who are in my new book within Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success are all talking about owning yourself and owning your career. Can you talk a little bit about it and then we’ll talk about your curiosity, but I’m also anxious to share with people what you discovered as you moved from being a Frito-Lay route driver all the way up to where you are at Humana, embedded in the organization to help build better what goes on. How does that happen?

Debra Clary: That’s another big question, Andi. It’s not a simple question. I think the things that helped me was that my parents taught me the value of hard work and an education, and that’s what I did. I was not afraid to work hard. I wasn’t afraid to do the assignments that were given to me. And then couple that with, I am a learner and I’m curious, and I certainly recognized that there was a lot I didn’t know, but I was bold enough to ask other people, people that I was admiring or people that had an expertise in that.

I love inquiry, I love to have dialogue and discussion around that. And I’ll give you an example. When I was with Frito-Lay and I was a regional manager. And I had two babies. And I was just trying to figure out how to manage this new world of motherhood, but wanting to climb the corporate ladder. This woman from headquarters at Frito-Lay flew into Detroit, and my job was to take her around and show her the market and have a conversation about that. And she was just, like, beautiful. Her hair was in place, there was no spit up on her. You know, her suit. I mean, she was just like, she seemed like she had it all together. And I also knew she had children.

And on the way to the airport, I got up enough nerve to say, How do you do it? Well, how do you guide me to do this? It’s a struggle for me. I’m trying to figure out how to be a good mom and how to be a good executive. And she said, Oh, it’s really simple. It’s two words. Get help! What do you mean, get help? She says, Have someone that you trust to watch your children. Have someone clean your home. Have someone mow your lawn.

I mean, she was just going on and on, and I’m like, But I don’t have that kind of discretionary income. I’m making it. But, I’m also trying to save money. And she said, If you don’t invest in this, you’re never going to get to the next rung because you’re always going to be stressed and worrying. And from that point forward, I have said, Get help when I don’t know how to do something or I need support, get help. And I recently read this book called, Who Not How. Are you familiar with this?

Andi Simon: I’m not. It sounds good.

Debra Clary: Extraordinary book about when you’re an entrepreneur and you’re starting an organization, or even if you have an organization, it’s not about you doing the work, it’s about you getting people that can help you do the work that you don’t have an expertise in that. So building a website, doing software development. Why are you investing your time in that? You need to hire the right people to do that. And in the last three weeks, it’s made a significant change in my outlook and my vision for, I can do this. I can actually do this.

Andi Simon: I love it, I love your story. You said that’s a big, big question, but in some ways you answered it with two words. It is not you alone. It’s a team. You said that you took a dysfunctional team and you helped to build a team. And if the team does better, you all do better. So there are two wisdoms already that have popped out, one of which is that it’s not a solo job. Even orchestras need to back up the soloist. I mean, there’s a whole lot of orchestra going on and sometimes a conductor.

But the other part is that it’s okay to learn along the way what can be done to help you get somewhere, as long as you have a sense that you’re on a journey to go somewhere, and that’s what’s really interesting and makes me curious about why you didn’t stay inside corporate. You might have felt a little stuck or stalled. You ventured out into, I’ll call it, a foreign territory.

Having been in my own business for 22 years and dealing with entrepreneurs all the time, I taught entrepreneurship at Washington University. It is a foreign country for people who have been inside a corporation. So as you’re entering this, it needs a new language. It needs new habits. It needs a new mindset.

You know, share with the audience about what you’re trying to develop, because you’re clearly curious about trying to help people who need to be more curious, become more curious. Right?7 So let’s talk about this whole vision of where you’re going. Would that be okay?

Debra Clary: Yeah. So let me start with how I got on this path. I was sitting next to our CEO in a meeting, and he leaned over and whispered to me, Do you think curiosity can be learned or is it innate? And I said, I don’t know, but I’m curious. So that next week just happened to be the 4th of July, and I was going to be on holiday that whole week. I just dug into research on curiosity so that following Monday I go back to work. I lean over to him and I say, It can be learned. And that was that, right?

I know all this about curiosity, but that was that. And about a week later, I’m talking about serendipity. Somebody that ran a very large division for our company called and said, We’d love for you to come do a keynote in Austin. Can you do it? And I go, Absolutely. What do you want me to talk about? And they go, You can talk about whatever you want to talk about…curiosity.

And so I’d already done all I had prepared myself for something to come. And so I developed the information in terms of what happens to your brain when you’re curious. You know, I want people to understand that this is a neuroscience perspective on that. Demonstrating that curiosity is good for the brain. And then I shared about the difference between children and adults. These are studies: why children ask questions and why adults don’t ask questions.

And then I said to him: And here’s what the benefit of it is. And then I taught them some practical things that they can do to be curious. And that was that. I thought, Okay, this will probably never happen again. And then it snowballed. And I think I spoke to over 10,000 people at Humana and then started speaking externally. And I thought, Wow, people are curious. They want to learn about curiosity. But more importantly, they want to be curious. And the thing that I found, Andi, is that curiosity is contagious.

Andi Simon: Yes.

Debra Clary: So if you are around curious people, you’re going to be curious.

Andi Simon: Debra, let’s talk some more. This is so much fun because what happens if you have this contagion called curiosity? Are good things happening?

Debra Clary: Absolutely. And, you know, being a scientist, I wanted to know how to be able to measure it. What are the levels of curiosity? So I partnered with a group out of MIT to say, I want a valid assessment that can demonstrate the level of curiosity at an individual level and a curiosity in an org. level, because if we have data, then we can make change. 

So I mean, the data suggests that when you’re curious,  people begin to feel seen, valued and heard. And isn’t that a lovely thing if people feel that. What does that do for engagement? What does it do for problem solving? What does it do for innovation? Well, all of that increases.

People want to work in a curious environment. They want to work for a leader that is open to your ideas, that your ideas matter. That’s what employees want. That’s what associates want. And so not only now can we talk about it from other studies and why it’s important, and here are the benefits from it. We can actually measure your current state of curiosity. And then we help you to figure out what are areas that you can get better in to help you drive this within your organization.

Andi Simon: It’s such an interesting word because by and large, I doubt there’s an MBA program with a course on curiosity, is there? I’m not aware of it. So it isn’t as if we are thinking about this in the training that we’re giving aspiring next generation business people. And I doubt when they walk into HR, people ask them, Are you a curious person? They’ll ask about their skills and how they like to get along. And are they collaborative, perhaps. And are they, you know, take charge and directing?

But curiosity opens up a very different view of the world. It sort of challenges the imposter syndrome. It’s okay not to know, and it’s okay that we can figure out what is important by simply figuring out what’s important. And that becomes very important. I often work with organizations going through fast change, either machine learning or changes to their clients or robots or hybrids. Humans hate change, their brains fight it. The amygdala says, Go away. You know I’m going to fear you, I fear you. I don’t want any of this cortisol flying around in your brain saying, Get away. This is bad news stuff. And you’re saying, Can turn this all into beautiful oxytocin, where I’m having such fun learning new stuff and growing, which is really important. Am I right?

Debra Clary: Yeah. It’s like, bring on the dopamine. You know that you get that when you feel like somebody cares about you because they’re asking questions and they’re suspending judgment. You know, that dopamine is hitting. 

Andi Simon: And bring on the dopamine. Love it.

Debra Clary: I’ve never said it like that before, but that’s what occurs to me. So what we also know from a neuroscience perspective is, the brain is a machine and it is designed to keep you safe. And so there’s this thing called fast pass matching, meaning that when something comes up, your brain wants to go to a solution as quick as possible because our ancestors were in danger. So you need to take action. And what we today have to guard against is not fast past matching. If it sounds like it goes really quick, I have someone step back and say, Wait, maybe there’s another choice, maybe there’s another option.

Going back to your question around an interview: you don’t ask people if they’re curious. However, you could ask them questions like, What is the last thing you learned? What is something that you’re working on that you don’t know right now? And you can begin to get an idea if that’s something that they’re interested in learning.

You can also figure out what is their tenacity to stay with the project because, you know, things don’t go smoothly all the time, especially when you’re being really innovative.  And what is your ability to be determined and to stay with it? That’s also something that you can measure.

Andi Simon: Now, I bet you that it doesn’t matter if you’re an engineer who likes to put things into boxes, or you’re a marketing person who likes to be creative. That curiosity can be for both of them. It doesn’t matter much what the nature of your mind is. If you open it up to see new things and unexpected things, you can expand the way an engineer can see the data boxes and creativity is already looking there.

And sometimes my creatives have trouble settling down on something. They see too many things, too many ideas. Entrepreneurs have a terrible way of having more ideas than they have the possibility of actually implementing. But that’s okay. And part of the learning process. One entrepreneur said, I needed a Type A to organize me, or if not, I never got any ideas done. And so you need to know yourself, but you also need to let the ideas flow so that you can grow. And this is a growth strategy. 

Debra Clary: Absolutely. I was recently working with a client who is an engineer, and I was asking a series of questions, and I could tell he was getting really frustrated because he wanted the pattern. He wanted to get to the solution. And when I realized that, I had to share with him: We are going to get to an answer and we are going to make a decision. But this very period of time right now is about exploring what’s possible so we get to the best solution. But when we decide on that, it is go and we’re going to get it done.

And it was just like this huge relief on his face. And my point is, is that you have to kind of understand who you’re working with as you’re pacing and leading them. I mean, ultimately, you want people to be able to take action. You want them to feel good about the solution. And of course, that translates into two business outcomes.

Andi Simon: Yes, I know, but for humans, ambiguity is the most dangerous place to be. You can be black or white, but they don’t like gray. It can be red or blue, but not purple. And when we are adverse to the ambiguity, we miss all the opportunities because they usually pop up betwixt and between, don’t they?

Debra Clary: And when that occurs to me, which has been happening a lot lately as I’m starting up this company, I’ll remind myself: You don’t know the answer. But Deb, you’re going to figure it out and you’re going to have people that are going to help you figure it out. And that just takes my heart rate all the way down and says, well, that’s right, this is a mess. And we’re going to get to it.

Andi Simon: Yes. And there it is. Kay Unger from Kay Unger Fashion Designs, who’s done wonderful creative things in the design and fashion industry for many years, said something to me the other day that she sees things in pictures, and of course the brain actually sees everything in pictures.

And so what she finds is that once she has a problem to solve, she puts all the pictures out and watches how they come together, almost like solving a puzzle. And I share that metaphor for you and the audience, because it’s a very interesting way to realize that is, in fact, how the brain likes to work. It likes pictures, it likes to see and visualize.

And I actually gave my leadership academy pads of paper and colored pencils and said, Now you’re going to draw yourself a year from now so you can visualize where you’re going, because if you can’t see it, you’re never going to get there. But if you can, even if it’s not right, you’ll begin to take the small, curious steps to see how to move along. And you can redraw the picture. But without one, not much can happen because you get stuff stalled.

Debra Clary: Absolutely. I think that is so powerful. What Kate said around that our brains do think in pictures. And if you think about it, I was in France this year and I spent time in the caves where the artists were. It’s just so extraordinary what these men and women did during the Ice Age and how they communicated was through these pictures and that has been passed down to each of us in terms of first pictures and then the spoken word and the written word came so, so much later.

Andi Simon: Of course, but Gutenberg came much later. But that was 35,000 years ago. And they were pretty sophisticated because they brought their pigments from long distances away. And their sophistication in the pictures were amazing stories to be told and shared. But, you know, before that the cave paintings weren’t and then all of a sudden they were. And I often wonder, how much was that we haven’t really been able to find because we haven’t found the artifacts with them and where they were located. But it’s an interesting story, and we can’t quite decide if the humans did it or the Neanderthals did it because they were sharing the same territories together.

Debra Clary: Yes, absolutely. And you probably have seen this recent finding in, I think it was Germany. As an anthropologist, I mean, you and I are of the same minds. We come from a different way, but it’s like getting curious enough to understand and go deeper and say, well, what about this? Well, this doesn’t match. How could this particularly match? I mean, every day to me is fascinating. It’s just when I keep my mind open, it’s just fascinating.

Andi Simon: You’re having fun, aren’t you?

Debra Clary: I am having fun.

Andi Simon: Good. Let’s talk a little bit about if people want to learn more about you, where would the website be so that they could find you?

Debra Clary: Yes. So it’s DebraClary.com so just my name and they’ll see the services and the consulting that I offer. But they also have a free curiosity assessment. So they click on that link. They’re going to get their score on their current level of curiosity.

Andi Simon: Oh let’s say that again. So if you’re curious about your curiosity go to DebraClary.com and download the survey there. And it’s a short version. It’s not the long one she might give you in your organization, but enough to give you an assessment of your curiosity. And I bet you’re curious about your curiosity. Once you find it then the question is, what do I do with it? And then you can get back to DebraClary.com. And she would be delighted to talk to you about how you take and convert curiosity into opportunity, because that’s what it’s really opening for you.

So on that note, I’m going to wrap us up for today because I’ve had such a good time. Last note, one or two thoughts, Debra, that you want to make sure they don’t forget.

Debra Clary: That curiosity is contagious. Curiosity can be learned.

Andi Simon: Good. That is wonderful. So for those of you who came, whether you’re watching or you’re listening, it’s always a pleasure. Send along those who you would like me to interview on our podcast. We have over 380 done and there are many more in the queue coming, and they’re all really, like Debra Clary, extraordinarily helpful to help you get off the brink.

And if you’re on the brink, my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways, which is what we’re going to do. Our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, is available at Barnes and Noble and Amazon. But I will tell you, I’m learning that a book has an energy, a force, and it’s when the reader opens that book. Debra and I did a program at Louisville Leadership, and we had a ball with 50 women who couldn’t get enough wisdom out of our wisdoms and who wanted to share wisdoms. That was really cool, wasn’t it?

Debra Clary: Yes.

Andi Simon: So on that note, my friends, let us know how you are doing. Send us emails at info@AndiSimon.com and we look forward to hearing from you. Have a wonderful day. Goodbye and thank you so much Deb. It was a pleasure and I’m sure everyone else has enjoyed it as much as I have.

Debra Clary: Thank you Andi.

 

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear how when you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen

I first interviewed Dr. Srikumar Rao in July 2023 and was so deeply inspired by the wisdoms he shared with us that I wanted to have him back so he could teach us more. And he does. The title of his new book is Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots, in which he offers solid tools we can use to let go of the mental chatter that gets in the way of seeing what’s possible. The universe is benevolent, Dr. Rao says, it’s your friend, and when we understand this, that’s when we can change our story and thus, the direction of our lives. Are you ready to make a change, today?

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Some of Dr. Rao’s wisdoms which you can apply to your own life

• The most important thing is not what you’re doing but who you are being as you do it. Too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing.
• Allow life to unfold. And as you do, you find that miracles happen, and they happen on a regular basis.
• We never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it.
• When you change your thinking from the universe is indifferent to the universe is friendly, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation.
• Open yourself up to possibilities.
• The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it’s your friend. And the more you do this, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend.
• Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it.
• Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? Well, the universe doesn’t give you what you want, but gives you exactly what you need for your learning and growth.
• We all have mental chatter. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter, the problem is you identify with your mental chatter. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious. And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You’re the observer of the mental chatter. Then it loses its ability to take you to places you don’t want to go.

To contact Dr. Srikumar Rao

You can reach out to Dr. Rao on LinkedIn, Twitter or his website, The Rao Institute. Watch his TED Talk here and email him at srikumar.rao@theraoinstitute.com.

More inspiration for finding joy and purpsoe on your life journey:

• Blog: Time to Add Gratitude to Your Life—And Your Company’s Culture!
• Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
• Podcast: Richard Sheridan—How To Lead With Joy And Purpose!
• Podcast: Meg Nocero—Can You Feel Joy As You Rethink Your Life?

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here 

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon. I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, this podcast is designed to help you get off the brink. The one thing we don’t want you to do is get stuck or stalled. But you can begin to understand how you can change. And that’s what we like to help people and their organizations do.

So today, I have a wonderful gentleman here, and Doctor Rao did a podcast with us earlier, last July in fact, that was just a hit, but he’s got a new book coming out. Actually, it’s out and I have been reading it and you will love it. Let me tell you a little bit about Dr. Srikumar Rao.

He is a creator of creativity and personal mastery. His bio doesn’t fit a bio. It’s a wonderful story about a life well-lived. He’s a speaker, a former business school professor and head of The Rao Institute, and I urge you to take a look at that online because it’s full of rich opportunities for you to begin to see, feel and think in new ways. And I use those words, but they mimic the words he uses.

He is an executive coach to senior business executives, and he helps them find deeper meaning and engagement in their work. He also talks about the fact that work isn’t work. And I love the idea because I love to work, and people say, when are you going to retire? I say, I’m never going to retire. Why is work bad? Because we define it as something that is not fun, but work isn’t work. Work is something that gives us all kinds of things, purpose, meaning, joy. What could it do for you?

My last thought today is to make sure that you understand Dr. Rao has programs and coaching that you can enjoy because they are joyful to help you begin to become the kind of person that you’d like to be. I’m going to call you Srikumar.

Srikumar Rao: Works just fine. 

Andi Simon: Thank you for joining me again. It’s really a pleasure.

Srikumar Rao: It’s my pleasure, Andi. I had such a blast the last time you interviewed me that I was positively looking forward to this session.

Andi Simon: For our audience, watch out, here comes some really wonderful, wonderful stuff. Give the audience some context, though. Who are you? A man of your journey and why was this book? The book is called Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. Now when you buy an ebook, that’s how I can show you the book. And I did buy a hard copy, but it isn’t a hard copy. And as I’m reading it, I think you’re going to find it wonderful. What is the context for this book and who are you? Why should they listen? 

Srikumar Rao: Who am I? As you mentioned, I’m an executive coach, and I have a very well defined niche. I work with successful people, mostly entrepreneurs, who have already done very well for themselves. But they’re driven. They want to have an outsized impact on the world.

But at the same time, they have an explicitly spiritual bent that they would like to infuse into every area of their life. They know that life is about more than getting the biggest toys, or the most expensive toys. And there’s something deeper, and they want to bring that into all parts of their life. So that’s the sandbox in which I play, and to the best of my knowledge, I’m the only person who’s playing in that particular sandbox. I may be wrong, but I’m not aware of any others.

Andi Simon: Well, clearly it’s not a red ocean of lots of competition pushing you away, is it?

Srikumar Rao: No there isn’t. By the time people come to me, they’ve already done their homework. They’ve listened to my TED Talk. They watched many of my videos on YouTube, and they know they want to work with me.

Andi Simon: And when they do the kind of work you like to do with them, can you give us some ideas?

Srikumar Rao: We have conversations. We have deep conversations, and I have an unusual take on coaching. So let me explain that. In my view, the only thing you ever do in life, Andi, is you work on yourself. A benevolent universe has given you many tools. Your husband is a tool. Your daughters and granddaughters are tools. The business you run, the clients you have, they’re all tools.

You want to do the very best you can for your clients. You want them to feel: Gee, hiring Andi was the best thing that I ever did. But in the process of doing that, what you’re really doing is you’re working on yourself. You want to be a great wife. You want to be a great mother. In the process of doing that, what you really do is you work on yourself.

The only thing you ever do in life is work on yourself. Now the universe has given you wonderful tools and running a business is a Swiss army knife of tools. You use that skillfully, but you never lose sight of the fact that in using these tools skillfully, what you’re really doing is you’re working on yourself. Does that make sense to you, Andi?

Andi Simon: Yes. Maybe because it requires you to be reflective of what you’re doing, how you’re doing it, and what the impact or the outcome is. 

Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. Because the most important thing, Andi, is not what you’re doing. but who you’re being as you do it. And too often we get hung up on the doing, and we completely miss the fact that being is much more important than the doing.

Andi Simon: I’ll stay on that for a moment. I don’t want to lose track of why this new book and how it fits. But as I hear you, you work with successful people who may or may not realize how they have become who they are. They may not be happy with where they are, but they don’t seem to have a toolkit to begin to take them to the next place. And that is a big theme that I’m finding that people find themselves either in retirement or transition or job change or career growth, and it’s being done to them instead of them owning their life and who they are, something that you have found as well.

Srikumar Rao: Absolutely, yes. Because too many people, Andi, go around trying to make life happen.

Andi Simon: Forgive me for laughing.

Srikumar Rao: I love life to unroll, unfold. And as you allow life to unfold, you find that miracles happen and they happen on a regular basis.

Andi Simon: Well, you and I were talking about serendipity, but miracles are a different word. Similar? Your early conversation about a path through life, I think, is so valuable to think about for our audience, who’s either watching you or listening that the steps aren’t necessarily, you can’t necessarily see them, but you can begin to live them.

Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. You know, let me share something with you, Andi. If you ask people: Are you happy? Most of them will say, Yes, I’m happy. Remember, these are successful people already, but we define happiness too narrowly. We define happiness as there’s nothing really bothering me right now, and there are actually some things that I like, or I’m looking forward to watching a new Netflix series or having dinner with a friend or something like that.

That’s a very low part. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about, do you feel radiantly alive? Do you feel so full of gratitude that you feel as if you’re bursting? Are you not walking, but joyously floating through the air, hitting ground every 100ft or so. Is that your experience of life? And if that’s not your experience of life, why not? Because that is your nature.

So how do you reclaim the joy you felt as a child, when you could spend an hour watching a dog chase its tail? Why have you lost that? And how can you bring it back to your life today? That’s what my coaching is about. And the wonderful thing is that when you’re in that space, your business and whatever else you know just floats effortlessly and you accomplish more than you could ever have dreamed possible. It just happens because you’re not trying to force things. You’re allowing the universe to unfold.

Andi Simon: Let’s dig deeper into that. Marissa Peer is really a renowned hypnotherapist who often talks about the fact that we live the story in our mind. And our mind also loves to go to pleasure, not pain. Even if the pain causes pleasure, like narcotics might. And the habits take over and you don’t even know that you’re habit driven. You think you have free will.

And so this complicated human where we want to take and know our own selves and take ownership of it, determine our careers, determine our life, give it more intentionality, a purpose, isn’t that easy. And so the question becomes, how do you change the story, modify the habits, begin to not simply just wish, but to begin to actually feel that gratitude, that happiness.

I don’t want to add my ideas, I want to hear yours because our listeners do. But there’s a way of taking where you are. You may have your house, you may have your car, you may have your club. You may think you’re happy, but take it to a whole next level where you are. Every day is a gift, and you wake up happy to be there.

Srikumar Rao: And the short answer to that, Andi, is, you have to work at it. Because we have been programmed, we have been conditioned, and we are so programmed and conditioned that we don’t even recognize that we have been programmed and conditioned. It’s true. And what we have is, we’ve got a lot of extraneous thoughts going on. I call it mental chatter, and mental chatter is always with you. It’s so much a part of your life that you don’t even recognize you have it.

You know, the kind of thing that goes: Oh, drat my secretary screwed up again, and should I keep her or should I fire her? And I’m sick and tired of having to go through these small snafus that keep coming up, which she should have handled. All of that is mental chatter. We live our life defined by our mental chatter, and we never recognize that we’re living a life which is defined by our mental chatter and not by what is really happening internally to us.

But one of the first things that I do with my client is, I get them to understand that this mental chatter, which you ignore, is actually creating the life that you live in. So the first step is to be aware that there is this stuff that is happening. The first step is to recognize that this is happening and this is really running your life. And when you do that and you become aware of your mental chatter as opposed to being carried away by your mental chatter, you start to say, hey, you know, the world isn’t what I thought it was. It’s something that’s different. Yeah, that is the starting point.

Andi Simon: With that in mind, I don’t like to tease my audience, give us something a little bit more illustrative, concrete to take from it. Stop the mental chatter because when you stop it, then you’re going to fill yourself with an opportunity.

Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. Let me share something which I’m sure some of your clients and many of the people listening to this podcast can relate with. I was teaching in London Business School and I had a student who was an investment banker and a very successful investment banker. There were many problems in his marriage. Because he was an investment banker, he was working long hours. And because he worked long hours, he missed many family occasions, dinners. You know, his son’s first piano recital and stuff like that. And his wife would get very upset at him. “You said you’d be back and you weren’t.” And she accused him of not caring.

From his perspective, the very fact that he was working long hours at a job that he didn’t particularly like was evidence of his caring. And obviously they were able to maintain the lifestyle that they did because of the income he pulled in from his job. So the very fact that he was working long hours was, in his mind, an expression of caring.

When she laced into him, he would get defensive, they’d have massive fights. And yet it was just a very uncomfortable, uncomfortable situation. And they were rapidly heading towards divorce. And then in my course, somebody suggested to him that, look, when your wife is lashing it to you for not caring, what she’s really saying is, honey, I miss you. And I wish that I was with you or you were with me.

Totally not convinced but he agreed to try it. And the next time he was late and his wife started getting mad at him and accusing him of not caring, instead of reacting the way he normally did, he said, Honey, it must have been really tough on you. I’m so sorry. Which is so different from what he usually said that she was taken aback. And what would have been an entire evening quarrel petered out in 30 minutes. And as he continued doing that, and each time that she got angry at him or started to get sarcastic, he would simply say, I love you. And I realize it’s very tough on you, I will try to make it up.

And gradually their bitter quarrels faded away. They didn’t entirely resolve the situation, but it became something to be handled as opposed to: this is going to lead to the end of our marriage. I was about to say that’s the way in which we’re always telling stories to ourselves. And we don’t recognize that we’re telling stories to ourselves. We believe this is the reality.

Andi Simon: Let’s stay there. I’m making some notes. In the stories, we’re always a hero. Stories that we’re telling ourselves, we’re always the hero.

Srikumar Rao: Yes.

Andi Simon: Right. And so the story you just shared is a beautiful one. Where he was right. She was wrong. She was right. He was wrong until they stopped being heroes to themselves. But literally, he just became, in the words he said to her, caring about how she was. It deflated all of the competition, the animosity. What a beautiful story to share and think about. Yeah, because it’s not complicated. It’s just, you know, change the story and change your life.

Srikumar Rao: Exactly correct. What we don’t recognize is that we never experience life the way it is. We always experience life according to the story we tell ourselves about it. And most of us never understand that this is what is happening, that it isn’t reality. It’s the story we have told ourselves and which we believe without ever recognizing that it is a story, and we have the opportunity to change the narrative. And what I’m very good at, is helping people understand that and to change the narrative.

Andi Simon: That leads very nicely, though, into your new book. Tell us about the timing, the pacing. What was a catalytic moment for another book. Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots has a purpose, and there’s something at the end of it for you to use to self-assess. But the context is important here because as the listener thinks about their story that’s guiding their life either toward happiness or toward less than, it’s an opportunity to begin to rethink who am I and the story I’m living and what am I thinking. Please, what was the motivation for this book and tell us about it.

Srikumar Rao: A book, Andi, and you can understand this, being a multiple times author yourself, is like a baby. You know, it comes to a point at which it has to be born. Yes, that’s what happened with this. I wanted to, as you know, I’m an executive coach and people ask me questions. And I noticed that there was a great deal of similarity in the questions. And this cuts across countries, cuts across culture, cuts across ethnic and other backgrounds.

They’re human problems, not problems related to any particular occupation, country, or religious or ethnic background. So I figured that if I put this down, it would be a help to people to understand that. And some of them, of course, might want to go deeper. And if so, they reach out to me and we discuss what I can do for them.

But the idea is to give them solid tools, and the heart of it is to understand that the world we’re living in is not a real world. It’s a construct. We build that construct with our mental chatter and our mental models. Now, this is hugely liberating because if the world we’re living in is not real and you don’t like it, then you can deconstruct the parts of it you don’t like and build it again. 

But what do you do if the world you live in is real, and you don’t like it, you’re screwed. But if it’s not real, you can change it. So how do you go about doing that? That’s what my coaching is all about. And some of the tools that I use are given in that book Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. And I’ve tried to illustrate it by means of stories, because I find that stories bring it home very, very powerfully. This is a story I shared with you about the investment banker and his wife. And, you know, they were able to make almost a U-turn.

Andi Simon: Now stay on that. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the chapters in there but we often say that we live an illusion. The story creates an illusion that guides our day but isn’t real. And the only truth is there’s no truth. It’s very hard for people not to say, this isn’t real. Well, sort of, but the pen is only real enough when you write with it, and something happens but it’s hard to understand that some of them, the stories that you have in there, though, are really very important for thinking about who am I and what am I doing and why am I doing this. Can you share a few of them? I’ll say the short chapters, but there are a couple of major points.

Srikumar Rao: Here’s one. Now, how do you think about the universe? Einstein said that the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now we respect Einstein because he was a great scientist, but he was also a philosopher who had a very intimate understanding of how the universe worked. And Einstein said, the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly?

Now, there are some people who believe that the universe is distinctly unfriendly, and the sole purpose of the universe is to frustrate. The vast, overwhelming majority of us believe the universe is neither friendly nor unfriendly. It’s indifferent. The universe doesn’t know you exist and couldn’t care less. So here you are going around doing your thing. There’s a universe going around doing its thing. Sometimes it seems to work with you, sometimes it seems to work against you. But essentially it’s a random process.

What if that wasn’t true? What if the universe was aware of your existence and the universe was well-disposed towards you? Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? You want to go on vacation and the universe gives you pandemics and lockdowns. Why does the universe give you stuff you don’t want? Well, the universe didn’t give you what you wanted, but gave you exactly what you needed for your learning and growth.

Like you’re a small child and you want a tub of ice cream, and the universe gives you fruits and vegetables, and you don’t want fruits and vegetables, you want a tub of ice cream. But the universe through your parents gives you fruits and vegetables. It isn’t until you reach a much higher level of maturity that you can say, thank God I got fruits and vegetables rather than a tub of ice cream. What if the universe was exactly like that?

That is a mental model, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out it’s a superior mental model. And regardless of whether the universe was friendly or not, if you believed the universe was friendly, your experience of life would be a whole lot better. 

How do you adopt this mental model? And the idea is recognize that it’s a superior mental model and look for signs that this is operating in your life. And I advocate people having a notebook where they write down the signs that the universe is friendly, and when you do that, you’ll see them everywhere.

I’ll give you an example. This happened to me yesterday. So I had a plumbing issue in one of my toilets, and I called the plumber and he came and fixed it. And after he did that, he had come to my house earlier, and he was missing a drill, and he thought he might have left it downstairs. So I went to the basement to check, and he noticed that there was a pinhole leak in one of my pipes, and discovered it purely by accident. But he looked at that and pointed to my attention and said, I’m here and I’ll fix it. It could have been quite major, and he fixed it. Completely serendipitous. That’s a miracle. It’s a sign the universe is friendly.

Most of the time when something like that happens, we dismiss it as a coincidence. So coincidence is a miracle killer. But when you start noting the ways in which the universe seems to be working with you and has your back, you notice so many of them that you’ll reach an internal tipping point. And in that tipping point, you will tip over from “the universe is indifferent” to “the universe is friendly.” And when you do that, your experience of life has such a tremendous transformation.

Andi Simon: And I think that the timing of your conversation today is so interesting because I too, I believe in, in those kinds of chance moments which aren’t clearly by chance. And there was nothing that made him go down there, except perhaps he left his drill down there and nothing that said, please take a look at a pinhole in the pipe or anything for you. I started a conversation today talking about where we’re going and the kinds of things we’re in. But, it is an interesting lesson for our listeners, a wisdom to begin to open up your mind to possibilities.

Srikumar Rao: That is the key point. You’ve hit the nail right on the head. Open yourself up to possibilities.

Andi Simon: Because that’s the only way you’re going to grow. As we know that the brain hates change, unfamiliarly. It fights everything that comes in and threatens what’s current. You have to overcome that cortisol that’s produced until it, nope, I want some oxytocin, because I think this is the greatest idea that I could begin to think about. But the only one who can manage that is you.

Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. And when you start living in a friendly universe, then you say something happens to you and you say, okay, you know, there’s a lesson in there for me. And what is the lesson and how soon can I learn it? And you’ll invariably find that the unfortunate situation resolves itself.

Andi Simon: So when you’re up at two in the morning thinking about something that’s really bugging you, let it go. Meditate, quiet the mind. 

So I’m watching our time and it’s almost ready to wrap up, but I want to talk about one thing more and that is meditation, mindfulness, managing your mind. Because unless you understand there are things you can do, in fact, I’m not going to say take charge of your mind, but quiet it, you’re going to think, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t know how to let go of those negatives to absorb the positive. Any things that you particularly like to do? I’ve learned mindfulness myself, but please.

Srikumar Rao: What happens? Andi we have this mental chatter going on, and you can’t stop it. It’s pointless saying, you know something is happening, don’t worry about it. If you could not worry about it, you’d not worry about it. But you’re incapable of not worrying about it. That’s okay. You cannot stop worrying about it, but you can observe and be aware of the fact that you’re worrying about it.

So one of the cornerstone exercises of mine is, look, you have this mental chatter that’s going on. And the problem is not that you have mental chatter. The problem is you identify with your mental chatter. And when you identify with the mental chatter, it can grab you by the neck and take you to all kinds of dark places. So sit back and observe your mental chatter. Observe yourself feeling worried. Observe yourself feeling anxious.

And as you create that distance, you no longer have your mental chatter. You’re the observer of the mental chatter. The velocity and the power of that chatter, it diminishes and it loses the ability to take you to places you don’t want to go. It’s very easy to describe and it’s very easy to start off on that. It’s very difficult to keep it there because you start observing your mental chatter and in seconds you’ve lost it and you become your mental chatter. When that happens, go back to being the observer. This is one of the cornerstone exercises of my programs and my coaching. But as you become better and better at that, you can be an observer for a longer and longer period, and you’ll find that the things that used to bother you no longer bother you because you let them go.

Andi Simon: And that letting go is a lot like what you have to do to grow up. Yeah. Let it go. And at any age, you can be, you know, still a child, let it go to get to the next stage in your own personal growth. I’ve enjoyed this so much. I do want to say one thing for our listeners and our viewers, that when you’re working, when you’re in an organization that may have gotten toxic or may seem to be unpleasant to get to work every day, or your folks are beginning to struggle, time to sit down with them and think about that mental chatter that’s going on. It may come from outside of the workplace or inside. Or maybe somebody said something to someone.

Think about the investment banker and the different ways he can deal with his wife, one of which is caring about the fact she’s been alone, or the other is angry that she cares so much about herself that she’s not thinking about him and the work he’s doing. Same situation, two different stories.

But, if you have an organization that seems to be fragile and it’s not a bad methodology to begin to sit down and listen to the conversation, observe, be an anthropologist, hang out, listen to the conversations at lunchtime. Begin to pull out of the stories people are telling that mental chatter that’s creating noise instead of joy. Because so much joy is there waiting to happen. The universe is joyful. Let it happen.

Srikumar Rao: Absolutely. The universe is benevolent. The universe is your friend. Recognize that it’s your friend. And the more you recognize it as your friend, the more signs you will get that it in fact is your friend.

Andi Simon: And then every day, coming to work isn’t work. It’s about growing and learning and teaching and gratitude and just having joy.

Srikumar Rao: Exactly, exactly, exactly right, Andi.

Andi Simon: Last thoughts? Dr. Srikumar Rao has been with us today, talking about his new book, Modern Wisdom, Ancient Roots. But it’s about you and about how you can turn work into growth. Begin to think about that, that chatter in your mind as something to let go. Some last thoughts.

Srikumar Rao: Your nature is happiness. You’re not this shell of skin and bones and blood that you think you are, who you really are is pure awareness. Your job in this life is to recognize who you really are and cast yourself free from this cage in which you have ensnared yourself. Trust yourself and recognize that the door to your prison is always open and unlocked. All you have to do is open the door and step out of it.

Andi Simon: This has been a pleasure. I could keep talking. I’ve enjoyed our conversation and I know our listeners and viewers will as well. Let me wrap up. It’s such fun to share people like Dr. Rao with you because it takes us to the next stage in our own growth. And I don’t care where you are, that noise in your brain is going to get in the way of seeing what’s possible. And in fact, the little challenge here or a little opportunity there if you let it turn into an opportunity. Next thing you know, you’re rising with it. And he’s smiling and so am I. So thank you for coming today.

Srikumar Rao: It’s been my pleasure. And I look forward to a wonderful association. And I don’t know which way it’s going to go, but I know it’s going to go exactly the way it’s supposed to. Thank you.

Andi Simon: Thank you. But the joyful universe is going to take us on its own way, and we’re going to have some fun. The timing couldn’t be better. Now, for those of you who come, remember, I love to help you see, feel and think in new ways. I can’t thank you enough for coming. Refer to us anybody you’d like to hear on our podcast. We are getting booked up for the rest of the year and so sooner is better.

My new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is doing extremely well. It’s full of wisdoms and people are learning. We often say, turn a page and change your life. Who knew? The book has an energy and a force well beyond being a book. There’s more. You’re smiling. The books aren’t books, are they?

Srikumar Rao: Books are in books. Books have a life force in them, and they reach out and grab the persons who are right for them. I could not agree with you more.

Andi Simon: Couldn’t say it better than you have. So I’m going to say goodbye. Let’s say have a great day. Please turn your observations into innovations. Don’t wait around. The world is waiting for your new ideas. Bye bye now.

Srikumar Rao: Let’s go further than that, Andi. Have a wonderful rest of your life.

Andi Simon: I love it. Everyone’s cup should be overflowing like yours and mine. Thank you.

 

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

The more diverse your organization, the more successful it will be

Today I bring to you a most fascinating and consequential woman leader, Melissa Andrieux. Born and bred in Queens, New York, Melissa became a prosecutor, then Queens District Attorney, then civil litigator. She is now Chief Diversity Officer at the law firm Dorf Nelson & Zauderer. She is also Chief Client Relations Officer, and is tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm by establishing a culture of diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging. What’s more, she helps other firms bring DEI&B into their own cultures. Melissa is not only a trailblazer but a beacon for others to emulate. Do enjoy.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Key takeaways from our podcast

• It’s never too late. Don’t let people tell you that you’re only good at one thing. Just because you’re good at it doesn’t mean you should keep doing it. 
• Yes you should have a plan, but don’t get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come. 
• You need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they’re not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they’re going to go elsewhere.
• Diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status. People often think that it’s just racial or gender, but that’s not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It’s what makes us different and unique.
• Equity at its basic level is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it’s not about taking from one group to give to another group. It’s about making adjustments to imbalances. It’s really about fairness. 
• Inclusion is related to belonging. Inclusion is, you’re being invited to the party to play, you’re being given a seat at the table, you’re being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard.
• If we do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own groups, their own culture, then we’re never going to get to where we need to be. It’s all about knowledge, education and understanding.
• When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader’s buy-in.

You can connect with Melissa by LinkedIn or email: mandrieux@dorflaw.com.

More stories of women making DEI a reality, not just an idea

• Maureen Berkner Boyt—Diversity and Inclusion: Let’s Go Beyond Hoping and Make Inclusion Really Happen
• Rohini Anand—Can Businesses Create Cultures Based On True Diversity, Equity and Inclusion?
• Andie Kramer—Can “Beyond Bias” Take Your Organization To Great Heights?
• Maria Colacurcio—Stop The Revolving Door. Help Your Employees Embrace A Diverse And Equitable Workplace.
• Businesses Must Sustain Diversity And Inclusion For Women

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon and as you know, as my frequent followers who come to watch our podcast, I’m here to be the guide and the host to take you off the brink. Our job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And in order to do that, you have to listen to people who have changed. Change is painful. Your brain hates me. But don’t run away. Today we’re going to have a great, great time. I have with us today Melissa Andrieux who’s an attorney whom I met at a wonderful party. And she has really given me some perspective on something that I think is important for us to share.

She’s smiling at me. Here’s a little bit about her background and then she’s going to tell you about her own journey. Melissa is an experienced litigator. She leveraged her background in law to lead Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, the law firm, in their initiatives as chief diversity officer. She’s also the firm’s chief client relations officer, and she’s tapping into her extensive experience in marketing, business development and recruitment to drive business growth within the firm.

But what’s really important is, she’s gone from being a litigator to being an expert in the diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging professional space. So she’s helping the firm help other firms begin. And this is my world: see, feel and think in new ways so they can begin to understand why having a lot of diversity of all kinds, including cognitive diversity and listening to each other is important, and understand how to include people in things that you might have not thought they were part of. Melissa, thank you for joining me today.

Melissa Andrieux: Well, thank you for having me, Andi. It’s a real pleasure to be on your show.

Andi Simon: Well, it was a real pleasure to meet you when we did the book launch at Josie’s. I asked people if they wanted to share their wisdoms and Melissa had a story she wanted to tell. She’s going to tell it again today. But first, who is Melissa? Tell us about your journey, please.

Melissa Andrieux: Well, when you called me up to tell my story, I was a little shocked. I hadn’t planned on being called upon. But I love sharing my story. I was born and bred in Queens. I am a lawyer, as you said. And I came to that profession kind of, I didn’t have mentors in my life who were lawyers or judges. I learned by watching TV what was interesting. That’s why I chose my profession and what was on TV? You’re a prosecutor. You are a criminal defense lawyer. So I chose the prosecution route.

I always wanted to be a Queens District Attorney, and I became one. I loved that job. I represented the people of the State of New York, the county of Queens, and as most people in government, we move on into civil practice. And then I moved into civil litigation. I did that for a very long time. You may find that shocking, but I did it for 12 years at a firm and then I moved to Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, which was then Dorf Nelson. Now it’s Dorf Nelson & Zauderer.

And I did that for a while, and it’s kind of sad looking back on it, but I did it for such a long time when I didn’t really enjoy it, but I didn’t know what else was out there. I had no clue what to do with this law degree. So I just kept on doing litigation, and it got to the point where I started speaking with people at the firm, and I was told that this opening for marketing and business development was available. And I said, well, I’ve never done either. I’m a litigator, I’m a lawyer.

But then it got to the point where I was just candidly miserable. I didn’t want to get out of bed, I didn’t want to go to work. So I said, you know, let me try the position, and I’m not a failer. I don’t like to fail. So I said, I’m going to put my heart and soul into it. And I started learning about the business side of law, which I had no idea that law was a business. I thought you just went to court, the depositions, blah blah blah, but I found it very interesting. I was meeting clients, I was meeting prospective clients, I was learning about the business.

And then that developed into marketing, which opened a whole new world for me. And with the marketing, I was looking at other law firms, I was looking at businesses, and the DEI aspect clicked. I mean, as you can see, I’m a woman of color in the legal profession, which another story is really not as diverse as should be, but we’ll leave that for another time. So I started looking internally at what we could do to make the law firm better, more inclusive, more attractive to candidates. We wanted to hire people. So what do you do? So I spoke with leadership. I had to get their buy-in or else this would never work.

And the first thing that we did is, we started a Diversity and Inclusion Council. And I hand-picked the members, and we just had candid conversations about what was going on at the firm, what they wanted to see change, and I studied. It was not easy. I spoke with people in the DEI space. I found the experts, I read, and it got to the point where I was being called upon to do panels and advise people on their own DEI journeys. I mean, it wasn’t a quick thing, unfortunately. It took a lot of hard work. I had a lot of mentors and sponsors in my corner.

Luckily, I’m one of those individuals who actually found people who wanted to invest in me, and that’s kind of how I ended up here. I know that a lot of people, and I’ve heard this, think that the law firm hand-picked the Black attorney to be the DEI officer, but I assure you that it’s not the case. I wanted this role. I advocated for this role, and I believe that I’m doing a very good job with the role. It’s not done. It’s hard work. And we continue every day to do the important work.

Andi Simon: Let’s reflect for a moment, which is how I think our listeners or our viewers want to pick your brain, because there have been a number of articles that have come out about how companies, large and small, are de-emphasizing the work of DEI or the Department of DEI. I’m not quite sure, being an anthropologist, why you need a department of it and who they put there. But, it’s a very important part of transforming the way we live together. And it’s both inside and outside. It changes how people come to work, what they expect of each other, how we listen to each other.

And here, give them some of your own, both learning and experiences, because while they didn’t pick you, they were wise enough to select you and to open up a space to let you go. I’m curious about that first group that you pulled together and how you managed to get them thinking. So give us a little of how did Melissa do it and how others might as well.

Melissa Andrieux: So the how-to is: I decided to leave leadership out of these council meetings because I felt that in order for me to get a true sense of how people were feeling, I couldn’t have the partners in these meetings because then people would feel like they cannot be honest. And that was the first thing that we did.

And then I took the feedback. I took the information, and I looked at our policies. I looked at the procedures, the internal information that the firm has. And then I went to leadership and I said, this is what we can do. Let’s do X, Y, and Z. Let’s look at our policies. Are they gender neutral? Do they apply to everyone across the board?

And we started slowly but surely. And as I say to everybody, DEI is in the long run. You cannot expect to finish DEI in a week, a month or even a year. It’s an ongoing process. So that’s how I started my DEI initiatives at the firm.

Andi Simon: You spoke about having mentors and sponsors. Clearly you had teammates because as you think about it, this requires people to stop and rethink their story. And the story of the firm they’re in. Their livelihood is dependent upon it, but also their personal experiences and what’s happening. So as they were working with you, were there some key issues? I can hear your policy changes, but policies don’t do much if people don’t do much. So what kinds of things were you beginning to implement?

Melissa Andrieux: So candidly, of course, as with any new initiatives, there is a little bit of pushback. So we had to get the team members at the firm on board and explain to them why this was important, why the time was now. And, it’s not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect. But people do understand why diversity, equity, inclusion and belonging is important.

I mean, the thing is, you want to attract talent. You want the firm to continue to grow. And the way that we do that is bringing diverse perspectives into the law firm, bringing different people into the law firm, because neurodiversity, everybody comes from a different place in their lives. Their thinking is not the same as, let’s say, somebody who’s been here forever. You want to bring in fresh blood. And so when they started to understand the business reason behind this, they started to really buy into what we were doing. And they embrace it and they welcome it at this point.

Andi Simon: One of the women I met recently is a Vassar professor who had a bunch of faculty go to court about equal pay for equal jobs. And of course, being a former academic, I remember well how they hired men at different salaries than the women and they came in with less experience. And that’s at a female college. Come on.

So give us a little bit of a breakdown because there’s diversity, equity, equal pay for equal work, equal position, equal opportunity, inclusion. And inclusion and belonging are a little bit different. Give us a little bit more detail. I think it would be helpful.

Melissa Andrieux: Sure. So diversity is a reference, a representation of different cultures, different backgrounds, different races, sexual orientations. Diversity can also be the differences in education, socioeconomic background, marital status is diversity. People often think that it’s just racial or gender, but that’s not it. There are so many different aspects to diversity. It’s what makes us different and unique.

Andi Simon: Somebody once said to me, we’re all diverse. And I said, that’s great. We’re all unique. Go ahead. 

Melissa Andrieux: And that’s what makes the world a great place to live. Imagine living with everybody who’s like you. I mean, I think that would be pretty boring. So that’s diversity.

Equity at its basic level, equity is about fairness and leveling the playing field. Contrary to what some people think, it’s not about taking from one group to give to another group. It’s about making adjustments to imbalances. It’s really about fairness. 

Inclusion is kind of related to belonging. But I look at them as two different concepts. So to me, inclusion is, you’re being invited to the party to play, you’re being given a seat at the table, you’re being considered. And as a decision maker, as a colleague, your voice is being heard.

Andi Simon: You mean you can say something in a meeting and people can hear you?

Melissa Andrieux: Exactly, exactly. They listen to you. They might not buy what you say, but they give you the opportunity to be seen and to be heard. And to me, belonging is an individual’s feeling that you feel that you are connected to the community that you belong to, that you can be yourself with the people that you’re around you.

Andi Simon: You find that you know humans. I’m an anthropologist. Humans are very tribal. Yes, they look at the world that they’re moving into, such as a workplace. Do I belong here? And it is everything from the tangible: Am I dressed right? Do I look right? Will people look me in the eye and trust that I make good decisions? Plus all of the intangibles that are there that often I don’t hear people talking about, which disturbs me because inclusion without belonging isn’t cool.

I did work for a university once and all the students at a conference we were holding sat at tables with others where they belonged, but none of them were diverse. And then they literally stood up and said to the administration, you think you’ve built diversity, but we are really in enclaves with our tribes. And yes, the whole place may have diversity, but we don’t feel like we’re diverse. We feel like we have a tribe to belong to, and that’s comfortable for us. But it may be uncomfortable for you. It was a very profound conversation about what these words mean.

Melissa Andrieux: It is. So I do some consulting, DEI consulting as part of my duties. And one of the things that I always start my programs with is defining what diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and accessibility mean. Because if we don’t understand these core concepts, we’re not going to understand anything.

So I truly think that if people do not start with the basics, the foundations, and understand why people feel a certain way, why people think that they need to gravitate towards their own, their own groups, their own culture, then we’re never going to get to where we need to be. It’s all about knowledge, education and understanding.

Andi Simon: And an openness to want to know more about the other. 

Melissa Andrieux: Seriously.

Andi Simon: Ask questions and be happy when you can sit together at lunch and share. How’s life? Humans are human and nobody likes to be the whistleblower or the soloist. They want an orchestra where they can all play their instruments, but play them together with a good conductor. How important is the conductor? The leader?

Melissa Andrieux: Oh, wow. When it comes to DEI, the leader is instrumental because nothing can be done without the leader’s buy-in. And I truly believe that. If so, Jon Dorf, Jonathan Nelson, and Mark Zauderer, they are the leaders of the firm, if they did not embrace the concepts of DEI, what I am doing at the firm would never succeed. It would just be some box that you’re checking. You know, your documents. But because it’s something that they truly believe in, it’s in the fabric of the firm. Long before I got here, it just wasn’t apparent until I got here, I suppose. If you don’t have the leaders who have your back, we’re going to fail.

Andi Simon: Well, do they do intentional things in order to broaden their own comfort with a diverse workforce and with diverse clients? I mean, do they live the promise?

Melissa Andrieux: Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that we do is: we started a scholarship at Pace University. It’s called the Beth S. Nelson Memorial Scholarship, and we wanted it to go to a woman embarking on a second career in law. And it’s in honor of Jonathan Nelson’s mom, who was a teacher and then she went into law. So that is something that the firm does in order to show its commitment to diversity, equity and inclusion. We want to bring up the next generation. We want to give these women who are embarking on these second careers the opportunity to get in the law and graduate on time, and that’s one of the ways that we do it.

Another way that we show our commitment, that the partners show their commitment, is: they embrace every single client, regardless if you’re black, white, LGBTQ. You know you deserve equal treatment when you come into Dorf Nelson & Zauderer LLP and you need representation, never turned away.

Andi Simon: I think that it’s really a model for others to both hear about and to learn about. You also work with clients and how do you bring the purpose and mission out to them as a consultant or as an attorney or a little of both?

Melissa Andrieux: I wear many hats, Andi, I gotta tell you. So, being that I am a lawyer and working at a law firm doing business development, that has helped me tremendously when I go out there and I network because I understand the language. I know what clients want from their attorneys and what they don’t want. So I’m able to talk to them as they need to be spoken to.

And I also do consulting, which kind of develops organically as well. I go out and I do these panels. I go to these networking events and people ask me what I do. Somebody said, Will you do consulting for us? And obviously I said yes, because I love to do that. I love to teach and help other organizations grow and start their DEI journeys with the foundations, and then we move on from there as their needs become apparent, as whatever they need.

Andi Simon: So as you’re looking out there, you’re seeing some trends that are both interesting or disturbing to you.

Melissa Andrieux: Some interesting trends are that a lot of the firms that have started their DEI, they’re continuing it, which I’m so happy about, even post- the Supreme Court decision. They are doubling down on their DEI initiatives, which I’m so happy to see because we cannot go backwards. We absolutely cannot go backwards. It takes the courage of these leaders to say we are going to forge forward. We’re not going to let anything stop us, because it’s also good business. Having a diverse workforce is good business.

I always say, if you want to attract more clients, you need to have your organization reflect those clients that are coming to you for help. And one of the disturbing trends is, people who are using the Supreme Court decision as an excuse to not continue their DEIB initiatives, or those that say, we’ve reached the endgame, we can stop now. Unfortunately, that is not how you look at the DEI. I wish that were the case where we no longer needed these initiatives, but unfortunately they must continue and we are not done. We are never done. So to those organizations that think that it’s okay to stop, I caution you.

Andi Simon: But, you know, it’s an interesting philosophical question because it’s a gig to them. It isn’t fundamental. It isn’t transformative. It is a way of thinking about people or business. It’s something that seemed to be cool to do, like ESG [environmental, social and governance], you know, pay a little attention to the environment.

We’re social creatures. We live in a very complex society and don’t shortchange yourself by letting others put you into some box. Take the initiative and see why it’s so important. I mean, women who lead lead companies in very good ROI, their returns are there and the people stay and they become places one wants to work. And that’s not inconsequential, is it?

Melissa Andrieux: It’s not. People gravitate to people who are like them. So I always use this as an example. I will attract a different type of client than, let’s say, a John Dorf or a Jonathan Nelson. I will attract the women. I will attract the people of color. I mean, not to say that they won’t, but we’re just going about business development and recruitment differently. That’s why you need diverse perspectives within your organization, because the clients out there are so diverse. They can pick and choose who they want to work with, who they want to give their money to, and if they’re not seeing representation at your organization or at your business, they’re going to go elsewhere. So I think it’s a really good practice to have so many different perspectives within your firm going out there representing your organization.

Andi Simon: Often when I do workshops, I remind the CEOs in the group that 13 million companies are owned by women. And there’s a tremendous amount of effort to get women, women of color or people with diverse backgrounds into the supply chain, right into businesses so they can be in the supply chain. They’re looking for gender and gender fair. Johanna Zeilstra‘s company Gender Fair is trying to establish it as a standard, not as an afterthought, and this is sort of a very important time for us not to let us go backwards. And not make it hard. I mean, I don’t think this is hard work. It’s important work.

But I am just thrilled that you’re on this podcast because I think that many people aren’t really aware of the challenge and the opportunities that are before them. Is it easy? No. Should you do it? Absolutely. And will it help you and your purpose, your meaning, your business, your happiness grow. Aha! Oh, God. Melissa, it should be easier. Tell the listener as we’re just about ready to wrap up, give them 1 or 2 things that they should focus on.

I always like Oprah’s small wins. If you’re going to get somewhere and don’t try to move the battleship a little at a time, but know where you’re going. And let’s assume that what you want to build is a really exciting organization that embraces diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging intentionally and intelligently. And that’s going to help your business grow. Now, if they’re going to start and they can see that 1 or 2 things you think should be important for them to do in a small win style.

Melissa Andrieux: So before I answer that question, Andi, you reminded me the firm, the law firm, is Gender Fair certified, and we’re actually one of the first law firms to be gender fair certified. So that’s another way that we show to the world that the partners are putting their money where their mouth is. So I wanted to put that out there before I forget. 

Andi Simon: Little push for Gender Fair, because it’s a great way for you to demonstrate that you care about the right things in the right way. So that’s one of the 2 or 3 things you want them to small win by. But learn more. And we can certainly introduce you to Gender Fair and its leadership. That’s terrific Melissa. Please, some other things.

Melissa Andrieux: So from my personal journey, I want to share with your audience that it’s never too late, as I know it’s a little cliché, but for me, I always thought that I could never leave. I thought it was too late for me to unlearn being an attorney. Unlearn being a litigator. But then when I opened up my mind and decided finally that I was ready to make the move, I said, you’re going to do it. You’re going to be great at it. And it was a long process, but I did it.

So one of my things, one of the things that I always say to myself and to the young attorneys or folks that I meet in the world, is that it’s never too late. Don’t ever be pigeonholed. Don’t let people tell you that you’re only good at one thing. And I had a lot of naysayers in my life, not to be a Debbie Downer, but a lot of people thought that I had lost it when I made the career change, and because I was so good at what I was doing. Well, just because you’re good at it doesn’t mean you should keep doing it. So never too late. Ever.

Andi Simon: You know, it’s so interesting. I met you at a book event for our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I’ve been doing podcasts with a number of the women who are in the book. There are 102 women, 500 wisdoms, and they all are sharing a good deal about their own life’s journey. Now, Lorraine Hariton we did the other day and she said no, there was no straight line. I was dyslexic, and I managed to realize I was really good at math. And from there I got into computers early, and then I was in Silicon Valley, and then I went to raise money for Hillary and I said, um, no straight line, is there, no straight line, no straight line.

And in some ways, that’s the exciting part about being a smart person, I’ll say a smart woman, but a smart person, right?, where you can see the opportunities. One of the wisdoms I love there is: sure you should have a plan, but don’t get so fixed on it that you miss the opportunities that come. 

I’m a big serendipity person, so it’s just listen. And here Melissa stood up at an event and said something and I introduced her and I said, please come and speak on our podcast. And I’m just thrilled that you were here today. If people want to reach you and talk to you more, put you on a panel or help you help them, where’s the best place? We will have it on the blog, of course, but sometimes they hear you and it sticks. Where should they reach you?

Melissa Andrieux: Well, I’m at Dorf, Nelson and Zauderer. My email is mandrieux@dorflaw.com and the website is DorfLaw.com. You’ll find me there.

Andi Simon: Good. This has been a great, great conversation. Every time I do these, I learn more and more about wonderful women who are really transforming our society and themselves. You, the company you work for, the people you work with, and I’m happy too. So let me wrap up for those of you who come and send me your emails and push out all of our podcasts. Last I looked, we’re in the top 5% of global podcasts, and in some places like South Africa, we’re really high. And it’s sort of like, really? So you never know where you are.

So the message today is: take your heart and follow it a bit. You never know what’s in it for you. My books, of course, are on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and your local bookseller. Women Mean Business is a fascinating book. I’ll turn around and I will bring it over here because as you look at a book, you begin to realize, it’s my third book, and the other two were all Amazon best sellers and award winners, but each book has a different insight. And so as you open it, I mean, I love Kay Koplovitz, not by chance, I opened it by chance. They teach you something, and I often say that a book has a fingerprint, and the fingerprint gives it a uniqueness, but its power is inside. And so as the book is opened at all of our events, and if you’d like an event, please let me know. What happens is something magical.

Kay Koplovitz said at one event, think fast and act fast. And she said: if I had time to analyze all the things I had to make decisions about, I’d never make a decision. And I said to myself, you know, as an entrepreneur, I thought fast and acted fast and that’s how we learn from others. We get inspired by them. And it does spark our success with new ideas that we know aren’t so crazy. It’s fun. So thank you again for coming. It’s been a pleasure. And we’ll see you next week as we post all of our great podcasts. Enjoy the journey. Thanks, Melissa. I’ll say goodbye now.

Melissa Andrieux: Thank you, Andi, for having me.

Andi Simon: It’s a pleasure.

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Learn how to escape or even avoid crushing student debt 

I am beyond thrilled to bring to you a remarkable young women, Bri Franklin, who co-founded the non-profit The Prosp(a)rity Project to help others avoid the massive amount of debt she incurred by attending an expensive college and being ignorant of the student loan consequences. She could have let the financial burden she experienced after graduation defeat her, but she decided to defeat it. Over many years she has worked tirelessly to pay off almost all of her debt. Now her mission is to help others in the same boat. Listen in, be inspired, and please share far and wide.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Key takeaways from our conversation:

• Young people: think very carefully about who you want your future self to be, and make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today.
• Taking out loans have the potential to either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball.
• Bri: If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork.
• College used to close the gap between socioeconomic groups, but now unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it has become the opposite and is now growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities.
• Predatory lending is subprime lending, taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. It’s basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance, which tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities.
• Bri’s hope is to educate young people and their parents through the educational system long before they make college loan decisions.

Want to connect with Bri? You can find her on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and her website The Prosp(a)rity Project.

More stories of courageous entrepreneurs making a real difference in people’s lives:

• Hamilton Perkins—An Inspiring Entrepreneurial Success Story
• Theresa Carrington—Transforming Impoverished Artisans Into Entrepreneurs 
• Lynette Guastaferro—Transforming How Teachers Teach In Over 700 Urban Schools
• Ivy Gordon—Providing A Powerful Voice To The Sexually Abused

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. Hi I’m Andi Simon. Remember, my job is to get you off the brink. And the way I like to do that is to help you listen to people, or see them if you’re watching the video, who can help you really understand the challenges in front of us in these fast changing times, and how you can see, feel and think about them with a fresh perspective. I like that fresh lens because unless you see somebody who’s addressing a problem, you really don’t understand the words, even if you read about it or maybe watched a video. There’s something very personal about some of the challenges that we’re facing that you might be as well. And so how do you address them?

So I met Bri Franklin, and Bri came to one of our book launch events for Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And I must tell you that the book tour has been extraordinary as well. I’m enjoying the people we meet there. So she and I spoke afterwards. Let me give you a bit of a biography of her bio, and then she’ll tell you much more about her own journey. And I think it’s an important one that you understand.

Bri Franklin is a businesswoman, philanthropist and student debt expert and thought leader with a passion for the socioeconomic and holistic empowerment of Black girls and women. And I think you’re going to think about this for all girls and women, but particularly women of color who are dealing with things in a particular fashion. Having taken on a financial burden that eventually ballooned to nearly $120,000 in student debt through her undergraduate studies at Dartmouth College, Bri developed an acute appreciation for the challenges many student debt holders experience, including their diminished ability to establish financial independence, take advantage of personal freedoms, or launch a business venture.

There was an article I was reading today about how the student debt for the generation who’s coming into the markets today is limiting their ability to buy a car. Today, a car is so expensive, it’s often as expensive as buying someplace to live. And 52% of the young people are living at home, not necessarily because they want to, because it’s impossible to find a place they can afford even if they share it. So our economy and our society is very challenging for young people because of the student debt and the inability to get past it.

In recognizing the extent to which other Black women in particular experience adversity at the hands of the $2 trillion student debt crisis and the lack of financial literacy, particularly not knowing what it means, not knowing what to do about it, Bri formed The Prosp(a)rity Project as a solution for eradicating the systemic barriers. Her work has been profiled in outlets such as Forbes, BuzzFeed, Authority Magazine, and Thrive Global, and she’s attracted support from audiences worldwide, generating nearly $400,000 in revenue.

But I think this is a more complicated and serious opportunity for you to understand what’s happening, how it’s impacting lots and lots and lots of young people, particularly Black women, and what we need to do to teach them how to be literate, but also how to use it wisely. Even businesswomen tell me that they don’t understand the finances and they don’t go after capital. So this is a big long term opportunity for us to educate them. Thank you for joining me today.

Bri Franklin: Oh my gosh. Well, your intro was incredibly flattering. Thank you so much for making space and the opportunity for me to be a guest today.

Andi Simon: You are a beautiful and brilliant woman. I’d like you to share with the audiences your own journey because as you shared it with me, I went, oh my gosh, we have to have you on our podcast so people can appreciate that, that nothing is a straight line from here to there. And your journey is not unique. There are many others just like you, but yours is the one we’re going to focus on. Who is Bri Franklin and what has been your journey so far? You’re a young person, but it’s been a complicated one.

Bri Franklin: It certainly has. I like to say that I had a very atypical post-graduation trajectory, and it was very much a jungle gym and not a straight line or ladder. So I came out of Dartmouth. I was the first in my family not to go to college but to go Ivy League. So I grew up in the Deep South, from Atlanta, Georgia, and always performed at the top of my class, student honor roll, principal’s list. You get the idea. And everyone just always told me, you’ve got to go to the Ivy League. You know, that’s where it’s at for you and that’s where you’re going to thrive and excel.

And so I really internalized that and thought, this is the only way to really honor my academic inclinations to the best of my ability. I started with one of the schools in my top choices and I ended up getting accepted, and it was between Dartmouth and Emory University. So, again, as an Atlanta native, it was a very close call because Emory was offering quite a bit of financial aid to the tune of all but $5,000 in grants, and that would have applied across all four years. So if I had chosen there, I would have walked away with no more than $20,000 in debt. That’s if I hadn’t done work-study or anything to offset my obligation versus the $100,000 that I came out of Dartmouth with.

And the deciding factor was, I was looking at the opportunity of going to an Ivy League and being in those circles, and the 18-year-old version of myself was also very much motivated by getting away from my parents and being able to break camp and go do my own thing. Not the best decision or reason for accruing so much debt, but that is how my story goes. So I came out of Dartmouth in 2017, as I mentioned, with $100,000 in debt principal, and then it quietly ballooned to about $116,000 within two years because of both interest and ignorance, on my part, and because of that ignorance, I also aimlessly wandered into other kinds of debt, and that included credit cards, and a car that was way outside my budget.

It impacted every level of my life, socioeconomically and mental health, and put me behind the eight ball in terms of achieving the typical milestones that young twenty-somethings often have made in the past, with little to no friction. So, and having dealt with that personally, I just became incredibly empathetic to others in that situation because it showed me that this was not the result of anything that I had done as far as breaking rules. In fact, I was trying to follow the rules, but unfortunately it worked against me because of what I now discovered is called predatory and subprime lending. So that’s exactly what my work focuses on resolving at a systemic level.

Andi Simon: When you went off, I’m curious, we all have kids and grandkids who are looking at college. And were you knowledgeable about student loans when you made the decision to go to Dartmouth without the grants as opposed to Emory with the grants? And was the reputation that much more powerful, did the colleges help you at all?

Bri Franklin: I get asked this a lot because people really were stuck trying to figure out why would I take the route that I did when Emory was literally making it so much more financially feasible? And that was because at 18, I call it the Know-It-All factor. A lot of teenagers are guilty. I think that’s almost the rule of thumb is that being adolescent and teenage, you just get in your own way sometimes and you think you know everything and that you’ve got all the answers. And that was really how I functioned, because no one had explicitly taught me what all was at stake.

You know, people just said things that were very nebulous, like, that’s a lot of debt. But I also would hear things like, oh, but you’re going to Dartmouth and you’re going to get hired immediately, and you’ll be able to write your own ticket. That was everyone’s favorite phrase: guidance counselors, teachers, relatives. A lot of people were just so convinced that by virtue of attending a school of that pedigree, that was automatically going to translate into an optimized advantage in the job market and increase my earning potential.

And so I just absorbed those promises and I didn’t really think to probe beneath the surface and take a step back and consider. Based on having majored in English literature, not having done a traditional internship, I didn’t know the first thing about networking. I didn’t know how to play those Ivy League cards. So I really came out almost with no measured advantage right away.

And, you know, for all intents and purposes, I think in those initial years, I could have been off to a stronger start coming out of Emory, but it was definitely a delayed gratification thing. And at these stages of my career, in my life, the Dartmouth Circle has come back full circle, and it’s now paid off in dividends in terms of the opportunities and the rooms that it puts me in. But I had to actively work for that, it was very much something I had to go out of my way to make up for lost time on, and it cost me quite a bit in the interim.

Andi Simon: What’s so interesting is that you’re a smart woman, and yet understanding the culture that you’re going into, there was no way to imagine it. You were imparting upon it your own sense of how it was going to benefit you. Even being an English major without having an internship, you were having a great time being you, and it wasn’t necessarily a good set up for the future, even if you didn’t have the debt. You’re missing something.

We talk in business about mentors or sponsors. Well, here’s an 18 year old who needed somebody who could guide you through your labyrinth and the jigsaw that you were going to be going through so you came out wiser, not poorer. So it’s interesting, as the listener is listening or viewing, how did you get yourself past the $116,000 in debt? Were you able to figure out a way out of it? Because I have a hunch that’s part of Prosp(a)rity Project‘s foundation.

Bri Franklin: So the short answer is, I’m still working through it. Unfortunately, I have not completely cleared it. However, I have made progress. I paid off about $40,000 of those various debts. So the total number, including the car, the credit cards, at the time was about $123,609. And I say, zero common sense. So I was able to shave off about $40,000, and I rolled up my sleeves and I threw pride completely out of the window.

And in 2019, I say that was my aha! I had a moment. I’d gotten so far behind on my loans, which for my private lenders alone were about $750 a month, irrespective of income. So because I came out and I was working temp jobs and contracts, I mean, I was making $15 an hour on a good day. And so I say my income was inconsistent at best, nonexistent at worst.

And the fact that my debt was constant regardless of what I was earning, that was, of course, very challenging to overcome. And just even at a practical level, having conversations with the lenders on the phone, the representatives, trying to appeal to them, get them to cut me a break, get them to give me some extra flexibility, it didn’t always go over well.

And so it all blew up in the summer of 2019, where my credit had taken a hit by about 150 points overnight because I fell more than two months late on my loans. And that also spilled over to my co-signers, my dad and step mom at the time; both of them had signed on to those initial private loans, and that had consequences for their credit. And it put us at odds interpersonally. And those relationships were always very valuable to me growing up over the years.

So it was just a cobweb of dysfunctionality and heartache, really. And so that was helpful, though, because it was able to just reroute me and caused me to take stock of my situation and just decide, as I said at the event, it may have started with these external factors. “This situation is terrible and I am irritated by it.” But even though it didn’t start with me, it ends with me. And so that’s why I rolled up my sleeves. I got two part-time jobs. I worked retail, which as an Ivy League graduate, takes a lot of humility to suck up the courage in your hometown, of all places, where you’re running into classmates and teachers and all kinds of people who are like, wow, that’s where Dartmouth landed you.

It was very much a pride component to it. But I was so motivated to get out of debt, I really didn’t care. I was like, if people are going to judge me for this, that’s their problem. I’m getting money by ethical means, and it’s building character, which it really did. So that was the foundation. I did what Dave Ramsey calls the debt snowball, and I started with the smallest balance listed out regardless of interest. And then I began chipping away. And because it does work as a psychological boost, when you can see the numbers go away, you feel like I can do this.

And it doesn’t feel like I’m draining the ocean with a teaspoon. This money does count for something. It is making a difference. It sets you up for progressive wins. And so I continued to keep those jobs through the end of that year, and I kept Orangetheory when I moved to the Bay area in 2020. I stayed and I enjoyed the increased pay difference because of the California minimum wage being twice of Georgia’s. But I was able to stay with family friends and not have to pay rent.

So I got all the upside and none of the financial downside, and I just aggressively knocked those loans down. And then once Covid hit, then it was starting from scratch all over again. And then once I started up The Prosp(a)rity Project, that summer was when I finally felt like my purpose was walking into place and I could see myself continuing down this route. And if all went well, being able to eventually climb out of debt along with the people that we helped.

Andi Simon: You know, I’m a visual person, and your story almost looks like a movie. Hopefully one day it’s real on the one hand, but I’m listening to you share with us the agony, the catalytic moment, the moment at which you realize that I can’t keep going like this. The impact you had on your family. None of this should be missed by the listener or the viewer because this is a very smart woman who found herself in a difficult situation that she’s working out of.

It’s not like she won the lottery but it is without a whole lot of help. It’s not as if everybody’s walking around on those, either the credit card or the car, but it is. And she’s also a representative of the generation that is finding themselves very much like herself in difficulty. You know, I’m a smart person. How did this happen? And once you got past that, how this happened, did it? Then how do I do something about it? Well, I can work hard. But now you’ve got Prosp(a)rity Project. Are you working on anything else? Or is this your business that you’re going to turn into a solution?

Bri Franklin: Yes! So Prosp(a)rity Project, this was my 24/7 life commitment for the last three and a half years. So we started up in the summer of 2020, and that took us all the way through this past December. And so we’re now at an exciting point of pivot where we’re using the last three and a half years of expertise, leadership, partnerships, just all of the gains and the wins that we’ve been able to accomplish collectively and through our work and turning that into an even more forward thinking solution.

So for context, Prosp(a)rity Project‘ is a 501 C3 nonprofit. The mission is leveling the socioeconomic playing field for communities most susceptible to and impacted by predatory lending. And in our first iteration of work, that was exclusively serving debt constrained, college educated Black women. We launched what’s called the 35*2 Free initiative, which draws its name from those two guiding statistics: $35 billion of student loan debt, as well as a 35% rate of financial literacy that Black women in the US hold collectively.

And so through that program, it’s a multi-pronged approach of not just helping that group pay down student loan debt, which we did up to $10,000 per person, but also training them on finance through what we call FinTech. So it’s six months of personalized financial guidance to give them a better roadmap for how to manage and steward their money and eventually build wealth, coupled with eight weeks of career development training, where they can put that into practice and then use that to go out for higher paying jobs and pivot into more lucrative industries, etc.

And so in doing those pilot runs, we did one virtual in 2022 with 12 women, we did a hybrid in the DC, Maryland, Virginia area last year with eight program members. We now have almost two dozen basically MVP’s, that we’ve been able to coach and get to know personally and turn that into the basis for an app that does the same thing, but to another degree by helping prevent it altogether with teenagers.

So we’re calling it Cadet Prosperity. And this is taking that IP and all of the user experiences and live journeys of these women, turning it into gamified avatars that can then coach and pay that information forward to middle and high schoolers who are sitting ducks, basically, for more predatory lending and usury. So it’s very exciting to bring it full circle and be able to help at critical scale.

Andi Simon: Let me see if I can take what you said and play it back so that I fully understand it. First of all, what’s predatory lending? You know, let’s clarify the words.

Bri Franklin: So predatory lending, as I’ve been explaining it in conversations and defining it through our work portfolio, is basically subprime lending or taking advantage of a customer for the sake of financial gain. So a lot of times that looks like very cryptic and underhanded paperwork or not being completely forthright in the terms, not going to great lengths to really make sure that the user understands what it is they’re signing up for.

So it’s basically taking advantage of customer and consumer ignorance. And that typically tends to adversely impact people in black and brown communities, whose parents or grandparents also were susceptible and didn’t know how to train them and break that cycle themselves. So it’s basically exploitation in the lending industry.

Andi Simon: Um, okay. Good. So understanding that, the other side of it is the ignorance of people to what that means and how to do it. And what you have had is now a dozen approximately folks who have gone through your program, which does two things, one of which is, begins to develop their career skills and the other helps them work off their debt, which if you combine the two, should get them a pathway to, I’ll say, prosperity at least, so that they can see the end of the tunnel and celebrate where they’re actually going to arrive. And if you don’t know where you’re going, it’s difficult to get there. And now we’ve turned the nonprofit into a for-profit application for gamification, for younger borrowers. Is that what I hear?

Bri Franklin: You summed it up beautifully.

Andi Simon: Well, I heard what you said, but I also know sometimes, as the listener is paying attention to it, they don’t quite necessarily put all the parts together. And I know that you’ve gotten on the one hand a training and development program nonprofit is that going to stay around, or are you going to move everything into a for-profit mode?

Bri Franklin: In all transparency, that’s a decision that we’re going to be huddling on in a couple of weeks just to weigh the pros and cons either way. I want it to be completely certain, whichever direction we move it in, so that it wasn’t a start-stop, because there’s still a lot of merit to keeping the nonprofit intact. But at the same time, in just taking stock of the current fundraising climate, I think, user listeners and audience members who are also in the philanthropic space, we can all collectively agree that 2023 was not a great year. And especially in our case, being a social justice-founded organization that was unapologetically Black, serving for so long, it was a moment in time and certainly not a forever movement. 

And so we’ve seen a lot of appetites go back to pre-George Floyd pre-COVID business as usual. There’s a diminished sense of urgency around closing the gap for the black and brown community. So, my inclination is that we will at least just focus our efforts on the for-profit, even if we don’t legally retire the nonprofit, just perhaps having it on freeze for the time being until we can reintroduce these initiatives, perhaps through a foundation at some point down the line, once the for-profit is revenue-generating and off the ground.

Andi Simon: This is very important to hear, because your business challenge isn’t like other business challenges. The not-for-profit side needs funding through different sources than a for-profit side does. Right. And the application is now up and ready to go. And in schools themselves, if I remember you were telling me, not yet.

Bri Franklin: The FinTech app, we are in the very early stages, looking to raise pre-seed funding and just building out our initial team. And we do have a target go to market by next January when we would be ready to roll it out, ideally as a first version into schools. But, we definitely got our work cut out for us before then.

Andi Simon: I think you’ve opened up a very different opportunity where individuals, schools, training centers…my head’s already thinking about folks who I need to introduce you to, who you get into the high school training milieu and are really concerned about developing those young folks with the right skills and tools to do it. It’s very interesting and just curious, strategically, are you thinking of this being something bought by schools or by individuals or by parents? I mean, who’s the market?

Bri Franklin: So my co-founder and I, we just ironed this out over the last 48 hours. So we’re looking at B2B to see, the sell would potentially be to perhaps like a large banking institution, perhaps a tech developer itself like Apple and have it pre-installed on devices that are going to schools from the distribution standpoint and honoring the fact that a lot of school budgets tend to be very shoestring and don’t have a ton of money set aside for major app rollouts. It’s subsidized largely from school partnerships. We’re thinking that it would be one of those two routes as we see it right now.

Andi Simon: That’s exciting, because if you get the endorsement of a distribution channel like an Apple or something, or even the banks who could really see this as part of their community development initiatives, you get legitimacy and co-branding on it. And that takes it from a startup to something that could have great legs and go further. When you have tested it, have you tested it? I mean, I’m sort of trying to remember what we talked about, but have you tested it among youngsters and do they find it a wonderful game?

Bri Franklin: So the game itself is still being developed behind the scenes. However, we have been in touch with their would-be gamers’ parents, so we do have some focus groups that we’ve built out with mothers, fathers, of middle and high schoolers. And again, going back to drawing from my own experience, that know it all factor, we’re trying to get the best of both worlds, where we are that conduit for mom and dad, because we realize that a lot of this information is as simple as table talk, dinner table conversation. But there’s the lalala, I can’t hear you because you raised me sort of thing going on.

And so we’re trying to solve for that, but also not have it backfire to where it interferes with screentime parameters and household rules, parents keeping kids off of devices past certain hours or things like that. Certainly not letting it slide into an addictive user experience or anything. So we are trying to have those conversations now. So that informs the build out and saves us having to go back and rewrite or take out things once we’ve already done the heavy lifting.

Andi Simon: It’s so interesting because everything has its challenges. We have a society where the youngsters are quite not savvy on how to use applications like these. Can we use them to really educate them so that they can be wiser and make better decisions as they’re approaching their adulthood? At the same time, that it could interfere with their focus on other studies and other pieces.

Bri, this is so profound because the problem isn’t a little one. It’s a big one. I’m glad you’re sharing it with us because I’m not sure how I would learn more about it. It’s sort of like, where does this fit into the whole context of what’s going on out there? You can hear about, a president wanting to eliminate student debt and then people objecting to it, and it just breaks your heart. To some degree, it is a reflection of our society.

Bri Franklin: It is. And that’s where we also see the opportunities because it’s a knowledge gap on so many levels. And I’ve done personal crusading, you know, through going in and speaking to companies and trying to build the empathy because so many people put blinders on because they remember how it used to function when they were in college, which is how it was supposed to work. Higher education used to be a gap-closing convention. That was how people were achieving upward mobility in the 40s when the GI Bill was first introduced, that paved the way for the current student debt crisis. It looked nothing like it does now.

Student loans were capped at 1,000 USD per year, and it was directly tied to a boost and a measurable advantage in the job market post-graduation that you then use to repay the loans in full, get your mortgage, marry, start a family, and live your most prosperous life. And then, around in the 70s, people started to catch on just how lucrative it really was and how much demand there was. That’s when it privatized and opened the floodgates for the hell that we know today.

And, you know, the Student Loan Marketing Association became what we know as Sallie Mae. And then there was the lobbying in 2004 that prevented people from being able to discharge their loans through bankruptcy. So there’s just been so many factors that are greed and profit driven, as opposed to opportunity and people driven. And so that’s where we’re coming in to reset the clock and the board and just say, time out, things like this cannot go on.

My motto was that every bubble bursts, just like the housing bubble burst. And so many others. We’ve seen an economic collapse before. I don’t think this will be any different. And so that’s why we are positioning this as something that is not only innovative, but critically necessary. I’ve gone so far as to compare it to a vaccine against the virus of predatory lending, or the equivalent of equipping teenagers with a driver’s license so that they can legally operate a car.

We’re saying debt doesn’t have to be the enemy. It’s the ignorance that creates the problem and has potential to turn it from a tool to a trap. So we’re solving for a lot, and it’s educational at every turn, which is why we want parents to be on board with us and to not look at this as a tool to create controversy or to challenge their beliefs in a way that undermines their parenting, but rather to bring them up to speed and help them understand what’s at stake for their child.

Andi Simon: You are a very articulate young woman. Thank you. I loved listening to what you just said because you really understand the complexity of this. There’s no simple answer. And you have a passion and a purpose. You understand it and you want to stop it. And I am just honored that you are on our podcast today to share it. Thank you for joining us. It’s just so much fun. I think we’re about ready to wrap up.

A couple of things you want our listeners to remember or our viewers to hear you say: one, two or three things that are really important for youngsters to know and parents to be aware of, and the universities that won’t pay attention to right now.

Bri Franklin: Yes, because I do have advice for all three groups, but I’ll stick to those first two. So for young people, if you’re listening, if you hear this in Mom and Dad’s car ride or come into it on your own, I would say think so carefully about who you want your future self to be, and you want to make sure that the you of 10 or 20 years from now thanks you and is appreciative for the actions that you take today. Because things as serious as taking out loans have potential to really either upgrade your life or set you far behind the eight ball, and take it from someone who has spent all of her 20s trying to catch up and get back on track to achieve the things that used to be so typical for my age group.

If I could do it all over again, I absolutely would have heeded the advice of being very careful before just blindly signing any paperwork. For parents on the other side of that coin, I know that there’s a tendency to just say college or bust and to insist that our children, our nieces, our nephews are keeping the family legacy alive by going to our alma maters or just going to college. It’s become more of a tradition.

But we’ve got to remember the why again. College used to be unanimously gap closing, and now, unfortunately, because of some bad acting, it’s become the opposite and is growing the wealth gap between socioeconomic classes and race communities and everything. And so we want to just make sure we’re setting our kids up for success no matter what that educational means looks like.

Andi Simon: All right, now I’ll let you talk to those colleges. So the warning for them is…?

Bri Franklin: Do better. I think that there certainly is a place for academia, and I have great respect for what’s come out of colleges: vaccines, academic research, forward-thinking initiatives. And I remember the upsides of my own college experience, but it’s just unacceptable to keep driving tuition rates up with no correlation to how that’s going to better the student’s job experience post-graduation. So I would say that the short of it is that we have to remember that it’s about serving people and not gaining profit.

Andi Simon: Yes, I agree. What a wonderful podcast to share with our audiences today. I can’t tell you how much I’ve enjoyed meeting Bri Franklin, and I think you should take a look at the Prosp(a)rity Project and see how you, too, can be of help to her and to those who are trying. Now, they’re just the two of you, or is it a bigger organization than that?

Bri Franklin: So on the 24/7 main buildout it is myself and my co-founder, but we are basically migrating our existing task force from Prosperity Project over to Cadet Prosperity. We’ve begun to start getting feelers out there for advisors and potential board members. So we’re growing quickly. But in terms of the day to day diligence, it is myself and Kaylee for right now.

Andi Simon: You’re great. Great. Well, I’m honored to have you here today. It’s been a pleasure. Let me say goodbye to our audience. Thank you for coming. Remember our newest book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success has just become a really cool book. And I can only tell you that I’ve written three but this one touches my heart because as I open it, people in the audience say, ah. I actually had a client who yellow marked it all and when I met with her, she went, oh, you’ve changed my life. It’s available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble in your local booksellers.

I can only tell you that I met Bri through a book tour event at Eileen Rosenthal’s in Washington, DC, and every time I do one, I meet some others who say, oh, this is a great book. It’s the wisdom of 102 women, and they can’t wait to share with you what they’ve learned and how you can succeed as well. Thanks for joining me today.

Bri Franklin: Thank you again for having me. The conversation just went by in a flash, and I look forward to this being the first of many dialogues that we have.

Andi Simon: I’m looking forward to it as well. I’m going to stop and say goodbye to all of you who come. You remember you’ve taken us to the top 5% of global podcasts. I’m honored. Thank you so much. Keep sharing and sharing Bri’s so that her message can get out there to parents, kids and everyone else. Bye bye now.

 

 

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Hear this incredible story of steadfast bravery and human kindness

I am truly honored to bring to you today a very special guest, Panos Manias. A self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminium packaging materials, Panos is an inspirational and visionary businessman. But what we focus on in our interview is his personal story of how kindness and moral obligation saved lives during The Holocaust, and possibly can change the world today. You will feel uplifted and deeply moved, I know I was.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

More stories of courage and human kindness:

• Blog: You Can Find Joy And Happiness In Turbulent Times!
• Podcast: Rebecca Morrison—Women, Are You Ready To Find Your Happiness? Is It All Around You?
• Podcast: Patrik Birkhane—Helping Us Live Healthier, Happier And More Peaceful Lives

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, and as you know, I’m your host and your guide. And my job is to help you get off the brink, to understand things and see them through a fresh lens. I’m a corporate anthropologist, and I’d love to share with you information from different cultures and times that will help you put into perspective your own situation today, and how to make sense out of it and understand it better.

So I’m really honored today to have Mr. Panos Manias with me. Panos is in Greece. He’s in Athens. He was introduced to me by a wonderful woman here in New York who wanted me to share his story. Now, Panos’s story is set back in the period when the Germans came into Thessalonica and really took over the city. And so I’d like him to begin to understand how to share that with you so that it is held in posterity so we don’t lose the story, and that the wonderful actions that he and his family took then are preserved.

So let me tell you about Panos. Panos Manias was born in 1934. He was one of five children. He’s married now and has two wonderful children and four grandchildren. He holds a bachelor’s degree in business, economics and international commerce from the Athens University of Economics and Business. He’s a self-made entrepreneur who started his own industrial company in aluminum packaging material in 1965. It’s now managed by his two children.

Panos, in his professional career, has spanned more than a half a century, and he’s proved to be an inspirational and visionary entrepreneur. His personal and business integrity, together with his determination on focusing on personal relationships, has been passed to the next generation of aluminum and continue to be the key drivers of the company’s success. Now, Panos is an amazing man, and I know he wants to tell you about the situations when the Germans came into Thessalonica, but what I’d like him to do is begin with his own journey. Tell us about yourself. How did you develop as an entrepreneur? Panos, give us some context to understand your own personal journey here. Can you do that, sir, please?

Panos Manias: Yeah. All right. Well, after finishing the American Veterans College, which is an American school and one of the best in the country in Greece, in Athens. I started working for a big company specializing in aluminum. And slowly they appreciated the job I was doing. And they offered me to go into a joint venture with this big company, whom I will never forget, because they really gave me a very good chance in my life. So I started working for them and they appreciated what I was doing, and they offered me to go into a joint venture in aluminum products.

And slowly but surely, it was expanding and expanding and expanding. And to make a long story short, after so many years, we are proud to say that we are a company which is 100% export oriented. We export everything all over the world and, thank God, both of my children, when they finished their studies in Greece and the United States, were both Brown University alumni. When they came back, I told them very openly and very clearly, now you are here, what do you want to do? It’s up to you. You decide, and I will respect your decision.

So they both said they want to continue working for me, I mean, for the company. And they said something which I will never forget. Listen, it’s your decision. You are never going to tell me you are not happy. If you are not happy, tell me now. They both agreed. They followed my steps and I must say that they did much, much better than I did. And I’m very proud of it.

The story we’re talking about starts in and stays where we were living. Before the war, we had the building, we had the big three stories building on our own, and we were living there. And the time was during the German occupation. It was a very difficult life, was very, very difficult, because people were asking questions and this and that and my aunt and my uncle who were living in the cellar, they were partners with my father, who was in Athens. They had both a joint venture in the food industry.

So one day he calls my father and he says in Salonika, there is a very good friend of the family, a Jewish family called Caruso. They were both living next to each other in a street in Salonika and were excellent friends together. They were not friends. They were brothers, although one was Jewish, neither was Christian. Every day they were going to meet together to discuss their problems, this and that. Before the war, everything was okay. And then when the German occupation started, everybody froze because they didn’t know what would happen. And unluckily the Germans were trying to find out if there were Jewish people in every neighborhood.

So one day they go to my father’s, to my uncle’s house, and they say that they would like to take it, not rent it. They wanted to have an officer living there, a German officer. They were frozen. So this is okay. And they didn’t know what to do. So they decided to take the Jewish family in their own home, hide them in an attic, but nobody would see them in the morning. And that’s okay. You can now have the home, the home which they knew was Jewish, but they left there. They’re not here. I don’t know where they are because they disappeared. And the Germans were living next to them. And it was very difficult. Very difficult thing to do.

And my uncle wanted to take them out of Salonika again, because in Salonika it was terrible. The Germans were killing Jews by the thousands. It was a genocide. It was incredible. I have to say something. My uncle, my parents and my father, they were very good businessmen, but they were not, as today, educated and things like that. But they had a good straight mind. So he called my father from Thessaloniki, and he said to him, Listen, there is a family here, that we are brothers with them, father and mother and four siblings.

So they said they made the plan. First of all, my uncle had very good connections with them. Then probably what they laughed at is the guerrillas who were fighting against the Germans, they issued for them fraud identity cards with the name Angelides. For Angelides, that was the name. And then he said he discussed it with the father and the family left and went to a fishing village very close to this island to hide themselves, waiting for a boat to take them to Athens. The boat was not arriving and not arriving, and the mayor of this small fishing town started asking questions. Who are they? What are they doing? Why are they here?

Somebody told them that he was going to call the Germans, that there is a Jewish family living on this island. They were frozen to death. And then they left because the Germans said, if you don’t give them up to us, we’re going to burn the whole island. They were doing it. Burn the whole island. I’m sorry, village. So the mayor told them, Listen, the whole village is in your hands. So the fact that they said, no, forget it. We are leaving right away. And they left and went back to Thessaloniki. They decided to return to Athens for sure.

Then you know, at that time there were no trains, there were just big old buses that were going from Salonika to Athens, which would take ten hours. And he decided after having the fake identity cards to put them on a bus and take them to Athens, where my father was living, my family, so that they would hide in Athens and nobody would know anything about it. My uncle insisted that he send them to go all together. Listen, he said it is a massacre. They killed Jews by the thousands. You must all go together. No, Mr. Carlson said, No, Mr. Manius. No. I’m going to stay here with my wife and the two children.

And he sent the other two with a bus. He didn’t take no for the reply. So my uncle said, okay, you want to do that? Do that. So with the fake IDs, they went to the bus station. They stayed in the third row and the fifth row, but far apart from each other, so that they wouldn’t know that their brother and sister and they were going in Larissa, which is half way from Athens to Thessaloniki, the bus stop for the rest. And the driver, who was not a good man, understood that something was wrong with these children. I don’t know how. He went and looked at them and said nothing, and he was going down to report it to the Germans.

All of a sudden, and this is something which is unbelievable, one sturdy man, very big, with not a knife but with a stick, stood up and went to the driver and told him something in his ear. And the driver froze to death. And he didn’t report to the Germans. He was going to tell the Germans they were Jewish and he would get money for it. So this was a big obstacle. Thank God they continued to Athens, where my family was living, and they were accepted by my family. And they stayed in our house. But, people there started talking. Who are they? What are they doing here and all that?

And my father thought of something very smart. In order to have them do something, he said, Listen, I will give you money. You will buy olive oil, which was during the German occupation, it was more than gold. I will give you bottles of oil. You will stay and you will sell them for peanuts and get some money. Not only this, they will say he’s a Greek doing some business to make some pocket money. And every day there was a Greek officer of the police passing by, and the guy in the garage gave him one bottle of oil free every day. Every day, every day, every day.

After maybe one month, the other policeman got a little bit suspicious. And what is this? So they go and ask him, who are you? What’s your name? His name was Angelita. They didn’t believe him. Where are you coming from? Listen, I’ll take you to the Gestapo and they will take care of you. He took them. He took the boy. And he was going to the Gestapo. And then he asked a policeman to take them to the Gestapo. And I don’t know how this happened. The policeman was the same who was getting the oil for free. So he gave back the little boy and he let him free. And the boy asked him, what are you going to say? I said, I slipped and you ran away. So he was saved.

He went back to our house where they were living. And then after that, I guess after that they started discussing who these are? Who is that? And my father went a little bit far away and rented a small apartment for them, and they were safe there because nobody knew them. And then they gave them the food and clothes and everything. And then the lady who owned the apartment started getting a little bit curious. Who are they?

By that time, the German occupation was finished. The Germans left the country and they were freed.They came back home and they said, we want to go now to the Serengeti to find our parents because the parents were there. So they went to Salonika again and my uncle told them they had to tell them where their parents were. The parents with three other children were caught by the Germans, and they were put on the last train from Thessaloniki. 

Some years ago, we had a wonderful, very emotional meeting with the descendants of the Carrasco family in their house. That was maybe ten years ago. Maybe 15 years ago. They invited the whole Carrasco family and the whole Martinez family for dinner at their home, and we were about 35, 40 people. And I will never forget something that the old lady said. She said, of course she raised her glass to say hello to everybody and say, listen, Everybody listen. If there were not the Manias family, nobody would be here. Nobody. Both the Manias and the Carrasco, they would all be dead. This I will never forget.

So you know, we tell you all that because I think I have a moral obligation. I think because I’m an old man now. I am 90 years old. And I think I have an obligation to the coming generations to hear this story, to have the same feelings. No matter if he’s Jewish or Armenian or Hebrew, I don’t care. Human beings. Human beings must behave like human beings. And I hope this is going to be a good heritage to the coming generations. That’s why we tell you this story.

Andi Simon: The reason this is so beautiful is because at times you worry that humans have forgotten how to be human, and the Manias and Carrasco families are a tribute to what the good in us can do, isn’t it? If we can be kind, we can care, we can love each other, and we can help each other thrive. And it’s a beautiful story. And Panos, your tribute to your family and to theirs and to everyone is absolutely exquisite. It’s beautiful. Your English is very good too, sir.

Panos Manias: Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

Andi Simon: Would you like to say anything at the end here to your sons and daughters and their grandchildren and anything special you would like to end with? Because you’ve told a beautiful story. But I have a hunch in your heart you just want to hug everybody.

Panos Manias: You mean to say something too.

Andi Simon: Did you want to say something in the ending to your story. 

Panos Manias: Yes, yes. I just want to repeat that as human beings, we have the moral obligation to behave like human beings. And look at the people who are around us not according to the religion or the city, I don’t care what they are. They are human beings. And we must behave like human beings. We must have the moral that God, Almighty God, whether it’s God or I don’t know what the name Almighty gave it to us and we have to respect what we get.

And I believe very strongly that really in life you get what you give. You give love, you get love, you give hate, you get hate. So simple. But simple things are difficult to understand sometimes. So I’m very proud that I leave this heritage to my family, and I hope they will have the same mentality to behave like human beings. Human beings. 

Andi Simon: This is a beautiful story. I’m honored that you gave us the opportunity to share it. I’ve been to Greece several times, and I did my research in Greece, and I was in love with Greek people because they embraced the work I was doing to better understand how people embrace change. And this is just a wonderful compliment.

So I’m going to pause for a moment and say goodbye to my audience, and then I will come off the tape and we can talk for a moment further. So bear with me for a second, because I want to thank everyone who listened today or watched. And I know Panos is going to be sharing this. So for those of you who are not familiar with our podcast, what we try to do is help you see things through a fresh lens. I will tell you that we live the story that’s in our mind. So think about Panos’s story and his desire to tell it. It’s one thing to have it, it’s another thing to want to share it. And by sharing it, hoping to spread his own big heart with others.

You’re smiling at me, Panos, because this is a gift that you’re giving to others, and there’s nothing better for their well-being and your own than to share this gift. So I want to thank you all for coming today. If you’re watching or listening, and remember that our job is to help you get off the brink and soar. So thank you again. And thank you, Panos and your family for joining us

Panos Manias: And do me a favor when you come to Athens, you are going to visit us.

Andi Simon: Oh, absolutely. Let’s do it quickly. Is it sunny there? Because I need some sun.

Panos Manias: Oh, it’s beautiful today.

Andi Simon: I know, hold on while I say goodbye to everybody.

P.S. You can read a more in-depth version of Panos’s story here.

 

 

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Hear how to open yourself up to a world of infinite possibilities

As you know, I like a fresh lens. That’s what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what’s all around you, and sometimes you can’t see what’s right here. Today, I have a wonderful woman, Roberta Fernandez, who’s going to help you do the same thing. Together, we’re going to help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. A personal and professional development consultant, Roberta takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. I love the word development. It isn’t a coach. It’s how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and address it? Listen in to find out.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Key takeaways from our conversation:

• You cannot change a culture until the people in it change.
• Emotion drives all behavior.
• We all at some point in our lives should “clean out our closet” — get rid of those limiting beliefs and the stuff that really isn’t a part of you, and open the door for that higher self.
• If we’re only focused on the problem, that’s all we’re going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want.
• The story we tell is the life that we create for ourselves. And it’s the life that we get stuck in. We stand in our own way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities.
• Most of our thinking is habitual, just automated. When we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then we can recognize those things in other people.
• The reason why we want anything is because we think we’re going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don’t know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we’ve accomplished it.
• If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or highly successful person in general, they’re going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success.

You can connect with Roberta on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and her three websites: Roberta Fernandez/AHARA, Conscious Napping and Conscious Napping For Business. You can also email her at roberta@consciousnapping.com.

Want more on how to actually bring about real change? Here’s a start:

• Blog: Okay, Okay, I’m Ready To Change. How Do I Do It?
• Blog: Three Ways Corporate Anthropology Can Help Your Company Change
• Podcast: Valerio Pascotto and Amit Raikar—Yes Change Is Painful But It’s Necessary!

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And if you come to my podcast, like so many of you do, you know my job is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And remember, I tell you that because until you see something, it doesn’t exist. And if you don’t feel it, you don’t know how to respond to it. And so my job is to bring you people who, through their stories, will help you think about yourself through a fresh perspective.

It’s not exactly the right metaphor, but I like a fresh lens. And that’s what we do as anthropologists. We go out and help you see what’s all around you, and sometimes you can’t see what’s right here. But today, I have a wonderful woman, and she’s going to help you do the same thing. So together, we’re going to lift you up and help you realize that change is painful in some ways, but an opportunity for you to transform who you are in a great way. She’s smiling.

We are very aligned and it’s so exciting to meet Roberta Fernandez. I’m going to read her bio a bit as a personal and professional development consultant. It’s interesting, when I launched my business, it was as an anthropologist that helps companies and the people inside them change. Not that different, but to be a personal and professional development consultant takes your full self and helps you look at it a little bit differently. She offers programs for individuals and organizations that develop emotional intelligence, EQ, and guides them through a change process to awaken their full potential and realize their higher abilities.

She’s perfected individual personal development, and that’s different from coaching. And I love the word development. It isn’t a coach. It’s how do I help you grow? And how do we take a challenge and begin to address it? And wellness. And I love self-care and well-being, executive managerial and team corporate training programs, particularly in the area of sustainability, culture change and emotional intelligence. She’ll get you more familiar with the sustainability part of her career, but there’s a whole package here that comes together with Roberta that you’re going to enjoy.

She’s conducted thousands of individual client sessions, more than 85 noteworthy presentations and trainings over the past 15 years. She’s going to talk to you about her new program called AHARA. I’m going to let her tell you about it in just a little bit. It’s a sacred term that refers to the support of consciousness, eliminating everything which is not the intrinsic or higher nature of yourself. It’s interesting, I was supposed to do a podcast with somebody earlier who was going to talk about something similar in her own discovery. When we got together, she wasn’t quite ready to talk about it, but in some ways, we must be facing an interesting moment where we are looking for our higher nature and the world is a very fragile place. And she’ll also talk about cleaning your own closet and conscious napping. She’s very clever lady. Roberta, thank you for joining me today.

Roberta Fernandez: Thanks for having me, Andi. I’m really excited to be here. And I’m excited too, because I think we are such a good fit for each other with how we think.

Andi Simon: I think it is, and it’s always interesting how we came to think the way we think.

Roberta Fernandez: Right it is. It’s been a journey. It is.

Andi Simon: So let’s talk about your journey. This didn’t all just drop into the bucket right here. You’ve had a wonderful life professionally and personally. Share it with us. And that’ll set the stage for what the programs are that you’re offering today. Please. Who is Roberta?

Roberta Fernandez: Well, I think I am a culmination of many, many years, getting into that last third of my life now, which is a pretty exciting time. I’ve been a serial entrepreneur since my 20s. I’ve done a lot of different things, but I think the thing that really changed my life, I had founded a Montessori school for 3- to 12-year-olds. So talk about anthropology. Montessori. She was an anthropologist, too, as well as a doctor way ahead of her time.

I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life. And I was sitting in a theater one day and I saw this movie, An Inconvenient Truth, and it just rocked my world, I have to tell you. And so I went home on the website and buried deep with this link, “Apply to be a presenter.” And I thought, okay, I can talk, I know how to talk, right? So I did. I forgot all about it. Probably 5 or 6 weeks later I get a call, it’s Al Gore’s office, and he invited me to be one of the first 50 people that they were going to train to give this climate talk.

Andi Simon: It was, see, I believe in serendipity. Absolutely.

Roberta Fernandez: And I was looking for my next stage and I had no idea what it was going to be. And so I went to Nashville. Long story. Mr. Gore trained a thousand people to give that climate talk over probably a six month period. And it was a wonderful grassroots, nonpartisan movement. I learned a lot from it. It opened my world, my look at my world, to a whole new area of sustainability, which was at that time not a very common term.

And I ended up working with a company out of Sweden on sustainability, and became a consultant in that field. But what I learned really quickly is there was such resistance to that term, and you can’t imagine why. Oh my gosh, you cannot change a culture until the people in it change. I mean, you can fire them, you can get rid of them, which sometimes is the right thing to do. But really you can’t delegate the way people think. You can’t do that top-down.

So I did that for quite a few years, and I did a lot of corporate training for really big companies and universities and even cities. And then I found hypnosis, which really is a whole different way to take my career. But in actuality, it’s the same thing. It’s just a different tool. With hypnosis, we’re looking at changing people’s perspectives with the way they think and the way they behave, because emotion drives all behavior. And so the last 12 years of my life, I’ve been working with individuals, helping them to change.

And a few years ago during Covid, Covid changed everything for everybody in some way, I decided I’m in the last third of my life. What’s my legacy really going to be? And I decided to take the last 20 years of my experience and roll them into a process that I call AHARA. So there’s several things that I do: cleaning out your closet is really getting rid of those limiting beliefs and kind of getting rid of the stuff that really isn’t a part of you, and opening the door for that higher self.

And then we start the Aha process, which is a year-long program where people learn to change how they think. I was really inspired by Einstein’s quote: “I look at the world and all the problems that we have that seem insurmountable and we’re not making very good progress with changing some of them.” And he said, “the problems that we have can’t be solved by the same level of thinking that created them.”

And as a hypnotist, I know that what we focus on expands. And if we’re only focused on the problem, that’s all we’re going to be able to see. We have to focus on the solution, what we want. So if we look at that, that is the basis of an aha, and that is exactly what you described: changing how people think, how they feel and then how they behave in the world.

Andi Simon: You know, Roberta, I’m an anthropologist. I’m a reader in neurosciences and the cognitive sciences. And, you know, we’re remarkable critters. We’re meaning-makers. I love the work that begins to show us that we have a story in our mind. And where it comes from is complicated. I’ve actually done hypnosis, so I’m sort of fascinated with our talk today. But once you have that story in your mind, it becomes your reality.

Roberta Fernandez: It does.

Andi Simon: And I tell folks, it really is an illusion. There is no reality. The only truth is there’s no truth. That’s right. And once you have it, though, you look for other people who are part of your tribe, the place you belong with your story that fits their story, and you all reinforce each other’s common reality. There’s nothing but one story.

And so when I get into a corporation or community group that’s stuck or stalled and you try to pull them away from that story, the first thing they say is, oh, no, we don’t do that. And I laugh and I said, well, that’s the problem because you don’t see it. You don’t see what’s right in front of you. And so you’re onto something for our conversation today that’s extremely important, a little different perspective. But this mind is really powerful at creating something that may or may not be good anymore.

So as if you’re thinking about the next phase in your own career, I want to hear more about what you’re creating and how you’re applying it, and why it’s working.

Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you for that. And you’re absolutely right. The story we tell is, it is the life that we create for ourselves. And it’s the life that we get stuck in. And the problem is, that’s just me and you. When you’re in an organization, you’re in a sea of those different perspectives and learning how to navigate all of those perspectives without losing your own identity, without losing your own opinion. And yet respecting and honoring those other perspectives allows us to do something amazing. And that is to create a new story and create a new reality.

I think when we look at how stuck people get in their own way of thinking, we stand in our way, and what we want to do is to be able to open ourselves to this world of infinite possibilities. And when we really look at how our mind works and how we function in a traditional environment, we’re only really looking at about 25% of what our opportunities are.

And so AHARA, at its core, is really teaching people to become aware of their own thinking because, as you know, most of our thinking is habitual. It  is just totally not responsive, it’s just automated. And so when we become aware of how we think and what we feel as an individual, then you can recognize those things in other people. And the Aha process is designed to teach you how to navigate that sea of perspectives.

Andi Simon: Well, you said something very powerful there. The thinking is habitual and what AHARA allows you to do is, I’m not going to say break the habit, but maybe it’s part of that. Habits are very powerful and very important. I mean, they make you very efficient. And the problem with breaking them is the brain doesn’t really want to work hard on learning something new, even when you’re getting educated. 

You can feel your brain working really hard, trying to figure out what they are saying and how they are telling me to do this. And until you actually do it, it really doesn’t exist. And then all of a sudden, you practice and you practice, and you get it. It’s a little like learning golf. I was thinking of which metaphor I could use. I’m a 12-year golfer, and I remember having a club and a ball and a book, and I don’t know why someone gave me a book to learn to play golf. It was irrelevant because I could read about it. But until I hit the ball, I went, oh, is that what they meant? And then I hit it twice. That was bad because now I could play this game. I can’t play the game. It takes a long time to finally get it so that it works.

So this is important now when you’re helping people through the process. There are multiple levels at which you’re working. You want to talk about the differences between the elite and the club and all of this because I think it’s important for people to hear that.

Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. Thank you. So really, it is one-on-one. So that is a very intensive way to look and learn the AHARA tenets. When I started three years ago, that’s the only way I offered it. I would work with a client over six months and we’d meet twice a week. So it was pretty intense. There’s some advantage to working one on one in that. It’s like immersion and that’s always a good thing. And you’re focused and you’re really into it. So you become acclimated to it pretty quickly, that’s not reasonable for a lot of people. And it’s also very expensive to do that.

So AHARA Club and AHARA Team are the same program. It’s just in the delivery that’s different. So both programs last a year. We have a couple of group sessions a month, a one-on-one session a month, and a whole slew of other things that go into the program. Team is just within one company. And the advantage there, and this is what I found in my sustainability work, especially the larger companies, they’re so siloed.

I remember in Target, for example, they had two sustainability divisions. One was architectural and one was in-store and processes. They never talked to each other. And so this idea of having a common language and a common approach and common goals that you set with each other. So a team is just within a company, it might be the leadership team, it might be the advertising team, the sales team, but they’re focused on their company’s issues.

AHARA Club involves people from lots of different backgrounds. So entrepreneurs, leaders, individuals who want to better themselves. And I love that too because you get such a different perspective on how people are applying what they’re actually learning. The key to AHARA, I believe, is that everything that we talk about, all these things you and I are talking about, are some of the basic tenets of AHARA. But it’s one thing to know them, it’s another thing to integrate them as a permanent part of your being, of how you function in life.

And so over the course of the year, as the members of the cohorts participate, they have activities that take these tenants and encourage them to use them in real life scenarios. So it really is an integration process. It’s not like a coaching program where I’m holding people accountable and coaching them. It really is about changing the way you think, the way you problem solve and and the way you live your life. And that starts individually. So there’s a big focus on the self. But once that awareness of how you’re thinking of how you’re interacting with the world, then how do we incorporate that on a personal and professional level? And that’s what it is.

Andi Simon: Possible to share an illustrative case with the listener or the viewer to concretize what you’re saying because I’m trying to imagine what you’re saying, and I am not getting a good imagination on it, and I don’t want it to be external from us. This is something that goes inside us and is extremely transformative, if I hear you correctly. Can you give an example?

Roberta Fernandez: Yes. So an example would be one of the women that went through AHARA, she was very successful in what she did, but she was bored to tears and she was thinking she needed to change careers, but had no idea what that was. And even though she was very successful in what she did, we found in working together that imposter syndrome was a big part of her life, and even thinking about doing something totally different was just beyond her capability because of a lack of confidence.

So first we had to work on those issues. We had to clean out the closet, so to speak, of those limiting beliefs and really look at what was driving those things to begin with so that she could better understand who she was. And once we accomplished that, then it became looking at the specific tenets of AHARA. For example, you mentioned how reality, how your thoughts create your reality, how that reality shapes your life because there is no reality, there’s a map, but we all use that map in different ways. We all experience that territory differently.

And so looking at where her focus was was really challenging for her because she didn’t know what she wanted to do. So we started with having her vision, the solution. And when I talk about problem solving from the solution, what I really mean is the first thing, because she didn’t know what the solution was. She didn’t know what she wanted, but she knew one thing, and that was how she wanted to feel when she was there.

Andi Simon: Love it, love it, love it.

Roberta Fernandez: Because here’s the thing: the reason why we want anything is because we think we’re going to feel better when we can have it. So even though we don’t know the answer to something, we know how we want to feel when we’ve accomplished it. So we started visioning, doing some visioning work with her on how she wanted to feel. And it was really interesting to see how that vision started to work its way backwards. And bottom line, what she found was she didn’t want to do anything different. She wanted to do what she was doing differently. It’s a huge idea and it made all the difference in the world.

And it’s so interesting because she’s a mortgage broker and that industry has taken a beating lately, and a lot of mortgage brokers don’t exist anymore. When I look at her website, when I look at her posts on Facebook and Instagram and social media, I see AHARA all over it and she’s still actually attracting people that think like she does because her whole thing was in her company, she built a company, but she had not built a family, and that was super important for her. When she first started implementing AHARA, it was very much in her family, juggling her kids and her husband and all their responsibilities. And then that started integrating very much with her as a person, as a business person, and gave her a gift.

Andi Simon: You gave her a gift, didn’t you?

Roberta Fernandez: Well, she gave it to herself. I have a process that helps you discover your own answers. And I think that is really essential for all of us. 

Andi Simon: I have a leadership academy, I have several, and I’ve been doing them for several years. And I love taking emerging leaders, once a month, beginning to get them to see themselves as no longer those managers, but as leaders. What do those words mean? I often say that the words create the worlds we live in, and if you’re going to go from manager to leader, something has to stop and something has to start. You can’t just add more on.

Yeah, well, the first session and it’s coming up, I asked them to draw pictures and tell us stories about themselves today. And then I asked them to visualize what it is they would like to see themselves become. Tell us a story about that, because I got to start them to see, feel and think about themselves through the story in their mind. And what you’re telling us, it’s a different approach, but very much the same. If I can’t see it, I can’t ever become it. And then we try to backward plan, small wins to begin to move ourselves closer to that. The vision changes, you know, as life gets in the way of where I want to be. It actually takes you in better places, because you can begin to see it as part of this complex thing that you’re crafting.

Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. And I think when you look at, and this is the value that I have gotten from being a hypnotist for 12 years, the imagination, the subconscious mind, which is home to the imagination, home to your emotions, home to your rules about life and how you think. What created you as a person when you can tap into that? I always tell people, everybody came to me as a hypnotist for one reason and one reason only, and they would be dumbfounded by that. They would say, well, how will you deal with all these people with all these different problems? And I would say that’s only the symptom.

The reason why people would come to see me is that there was a disconnect between what they consciously wanted and what their subconscious mind believed was possible. And inside of you, the one thing that I am absolutely sure inside of each one of us are the answers. We just can’t connect to them. And that’s the bridge that I played as a hypnotist. And I learned so much about human behavior and how the mind works and how really simple those answers are. Once you can get clear. 

Andi Simon: Pretty, pretty cool stuff, huh?

Roberta Fernandez: It is. Yeah.

Andi Simon: So now, how are you building? This is a new line of business for you. As if it’s not quite a startup, but it is the next step in it. 

Roberta Fernandez: You know, it’s new and it’s old because this is really the same work that I did in the corporate sector. I just did it on larger scales, right? I would have large training sessions and that kind of thing. So AHARA, any of the group ones are 12, we limit it to 12, 8-12 people at the most, but still more than one-on-one, because I also realize when we’re looking at it professionally, having a variety of opinions and ways of applying what you’re learning is so very important because people ask questions that I never would have thought of. And that’s a learning experience for me. So I love the idea of working in small groups, but it really is the same thing I was doing before. I’m just packaging what I’ve learned from several careers, actually, and putting it all into one tool, if that makes sense.

Andi Simon: I think that’s wonderful. So it’s not a startup, it’s a restart instead of branding. It’s a rebranding. But it is your skills, well-honed in your expertise and experience. This is not an imposter syndrome stuff. This is a woman who has had a great experience listeners might benefit by and do it in a very different way.

I can’t tell you how many times I became an executive coach. I don’t sell it, but often my clients need it. And so I go from consulting into coaching, mostly to become a listener and to help them get some perspective, but it’s amazing to me how without that, people have a hard time thinking. They have a hard time doing and they need to somehow, I won’t say the word vent, but to express the dilemmas that they’re facing.

And often it’s well beyond what you ever could have imagined and sort of like, I’ve had some clients and they’ve had family issues, and we get on a phone call or a Zoom for a business conversation. We never get to the business, the whole people and the combination of home and work sometimes just need a hand, you know? Let’s see if we can help you rethink what you’re doing and move forward some way, right?

Roberta Fernandez: Yeah. You know, I remember when I was young, there was the attitude of, you have to leave your problems at the door when you get to work. And no, that was a thing, right? You’re right.

Andi Simon: I am the same age. It was exactly. Absolutely.

Roberta Fernandez: And it’s impossible. It’s like saying you can separate the body from the mind and the spirit. You can’t. We are a whole package deal. And how we are personally definitely impacts who we are professionally. And we tend to think of ourselves as a different person when we walk in that door. And that is not the truth. It is not the truth.

And what is really cool is when we realize that and we can learn how to integrate these processes as part of who we are, we become more efficient in both our personal and professional life. And so when I was rebranding myself as not just a consultant, I really was specific and intentional in saying a personal and professional development consultant because they’re inextricably connected.

Andi Simon: And if you can structure a process for yourself of moving between roles, I often tell my clients that life is like theater. You don’t see it that way, but it’s just another metaphor. And in each place you are, you’re playing a role, sometimes well-honed, in others not. But I used to find that when I came home from business and my two kids were there waiting for time, I’d say to them, mom has to take a shower first. And I took the shower, I sat on the floor outside the shower, and I took the shower as a quiet downtime to move from business to mom.

And then I came out as a mom, and I vividly remember saying to myself, this is very healthy for them and for you because as you walk through the door, you’re still there and now you have to come here. The mom and I never quite tried to master that, but I remember having to because it was intense, both the business side and the mom side and being a professional person, you know, it was always managing a blended life. You had to figure out how one person could keep shifting rolls. And I remember we had one party for one client and it was on my birthday. My daughter came with me, and it was with great pride that I showed her off and brought her in. It was okay. So I think that these were complicated critters, and I do think it’s time that more people need them. 

Roberta Fernandez: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So  I think I agree with everything that you’re saying, Andi. And I think if the audience can really take something away from this is that, really exploring, you mentioned that you’re a neuroscientist. My daughter is a neuroscientist as well. And we have very interesting discussions as a hypnotist and a neuroscientist together about how the brain works. It’s really important to understand that; you mentioned earlier the brain has to be efficient.

And so the majority of things that we do day in and day out are just habits. It’s something, and our thoughts too, just thoughts. We keep thinking over and over again but change is possible because it just is. And the way it’s possible is by becoming aware of how we think.

And when I look at the acronym of AHARA, A Higher Awareness leads us to Realize our Abilities, because we cannot fully realize our potential and reach that potential until we are aware of who we are, how we think, and how we navigate this world. And once we can tap into that, then the sky is absolutely the limit.

Andi Simon: You almost answered my question, which was, Roberta, tell the listener one or 2 or 3 things you don’t want them to forget. That sounded like the one.

Roberta Fernandez: Oh, it’s one.

Andi Simon: Yes it is. You know, because we’re about ready to wrap up. Is there a 2 or 3 you can add to that, or shall we just end on that note?

Roberta Fernandez: I think here’s how I’d like to end it. If you look at any great artist or scientist or inventor or just a highly successful person in general, they’re going to tell you that changing how they think, how they process, and how they see things differently than anybody else is what has contributed the most to their success.

Andi Simon: Good. So now we have a great podcast to share that you can change. It is painful. The amygdala really hijacks most new ideas. The habits make you efficient, but not necessarily productive. I love the story of the woman who wanted to stay and do what she did, but do it differently to add real value to herself and others.

And change is painful. But it happens. And I also love the fact that when you’re understanding that the words we use create the worlds we live in, sometimes we have to shed some ideas deliberately. And I like the idea of doing it in groups of 8 or 10, so you can help each other stay on course and not fall back. Because sometimes we fall back, even though we really don’t want to.

We don’t even see ourselves. It’s just the old habits rising to the surface. Oh, we’re complicated humans. God, if only it were easy but there’s progress. Now, remember, Judith Glaser does great work with conversational intelligence, and her stuff about the brain literally changes when you hear stories like we’re telling. So just so you know, listeners, you listen and your brain is adapting to what you’re hearing. Your story is changing, and there’s actually DNA that’s gone through a transformation there. Maybe.

But I love the idea that this is casual and outside of us, but comes inside of us and begins to be transformative, like your work. So absolutely, I’m going to say it’s time to wrap. I always love our podcasts. This is a great one. I’m so glad you came to me. I don’t know where, serendipity and there you are, but it’s been a great conversation about things that I sort of knew, but I didn’t know a lot about for our audience. Thank you for coming. It’s always a pleasure to help you see, feel and think in new ways.

Remember my new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success is on Amazon, Barnes and Noble and elsewhere, and I think that it’s a time for us to begin to understand how change is possible, and we should be changing. The joy of writing this book is that 102 women want to share their wisdom with others so you can thrive in business as well. And that is a very big change. When you read those stories and look at their wisdoms, you go, oh my gosh, that’s a great point. I can do that. Not the least of which is serendipity is a great way to start the day, and we have been serendipitously happy today.

Goodbye my friends. Thanks. Send us your emails at info@Andisimon.com and we will bring more great people onto the show. Goodbye again. Bye bye. Have a great day. Thanks, Roberta.

Roberta Fernandez: Thank you.

 

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear about perseverance, pivoting, and putting yourself out there

In today’s podcast I bring you Gemma Toner, former media and telecommunications innovator and one of the 102 amazing women leaders featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself. Gemma and I talk about not being afraid to take a job or head up a project even if you think you’re not 100% quailified. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow—that’s when amazing things can happen. Listen in!

Watch and listen to our conversation here

8 takeaways from Gemma for your own journey

1. Just start. And then keep going. This the best advice Gemma received from one of her mentors.
2. Everybody makes mistakes. Learn and start again.
3. Find people that are like you that can support you, in good times and bad. We all need a support team.
4. Don’t forget where you came from. Remember your roots.
5. Be open to lateral moves. There are many ways to build your career. Even roles you don’t like can lead to great opportunities.
6. Sometimes you don’t know what you don’t know. Be open and curious.
7. Share your wisdom and experiences with other women. As you rise, lift others.
8. Don’t let setbacks limit you. Handle the disappointment, learn as much as you can from it, then let it go and move on.

To connect with Gemma, you can find her on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and her company website Tone Networks. You can also email her at gemma@tonenetworks.com.

For more on becoming the best you can be, here are some of our favorite podcasts:

• Elizabeth Rosenberg—Can An Extraordinary Coach Bring Out The Unseen Beauty In Your Strengths?
• Jodi Flynn Takes You From Dreaming To Doing
• Shayna Bergman—How To Identify Your Values And Live Them Every Day

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon and as you know, I’m your host and your guide, and I love doing podcasts so that you can see, feel and think in new ways. Why is that important? Well, these are very fast changing times, and regardless of who you are or where you are, something is pushing against you a little bit and you’re not quite sure. Do I like it? Don’t I like it? Most humans hate change. It creates pain in the brain. But it’s time to change. And the sooner you make change your friend, the more happy you’re going to be.

My job is to get you off the brink. So today I have an amazing woman here. Gemma Toner is a fabulous woman. She’s part of our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. You can see behind us, and I’m going to show you her picture. And each of them provide five wisdoms. And what I love doing is sharing their wisdom on the podcast because sometimes it comes alive even better. Gemma, thank you for being with me today. You’re smiling, I love you.

Gemma Toner: I am so grateful to be here. Thank you.

Andi Simon: Gemma and I are going to have a great lunch after our podcast. But first we have to get through our podcast. Let me tell you about her so that you, our viewers and our listeners, know why you should listen up because it’s important.

Gemma is a media and telecommunications leader known for driving innovation. In 2017, she created Tone Networks. And we’re going to talk about Tone today as a SAS microlearning platform designed for early- to mid-career women. Although as I looked at them, I think it’s for all women to stay in advance in the workplace. She’s been a board member of publicly traded companies including Sandvine, and is currently Co-Chair of the Women Business Collaborative.

Before founding Tone Networks, Gemma held executive positions in media and technology for AMC and Cablevision Media, running the fastest ISP in the country. We’re going to hear more about that in a moment. She’s been granted patents for data analytics, and she proudly serves on the board of the global humanitarian organization Concern Worldwide. Don’t you love that bio, audience? I think this is a wonderful time because you had that great article in February of 2023 about The Great Breakup. So here you’re going to hear about Gemma in the corporate world and then founding a new company to help women do even better. And this is something that is extremely important to me and to her. Tell us about your journey. How did you get into corporate? What was it like? 

Gemma Toner: All right. Let me tell you about my journey, because it is not one that people immediately think of or hear. And that is that. I think of myself as a mother and a wife and a business person, a technologist, and I’m a data geek, but I’m also an immigrant. And that’s important because it’s such a strong part of my identity. And it’s also kind of driven me throughout my whole life. And so you ask how I got into corporate? Well, I’ll tell you.

My parents immigrated from Northern Ireland when I was about 4 or 6 months old. When you’re an immigrant, and this was back in the 60s, your family actually became your friends. And at least for our family, we were packed up every summer and spent time with all our family that my parents had left back in Ireland. So I have this kind of bifurcated life which sometimes I didn’t always appreciate.

You ask me again how I got into corporate. Well, I kind of looked at my dad and saw what he accomplished, and I was the oldest in a family of three girls. I thought, well, I’ve got to do better because he came here literally with nothing. He had very little money, very little education, but he had the dream that the American dream was possible. And you know what? It really was for him. And he became wildly successful here in the United States. So I had some big shoes to fill. And my dad didn’t go to college.

So the first step for me to get to corporate America was actually to get to college. And so I did. I got into Villanova and had a great experience there and ended up studying accounting. That wasn’t necessarily the most strategic. I happen to be really good at it. I happen to also be one of the few women in the room, and I didn’t mind that. So it was a great school, great experience. And I popped into corporate America and my first job was at a great company now called Ernst and Young. And I got to spend a lot of time at Time Inc. and again, this was again for this immigrant girl, this was corporate.

America was not something I grew up with. I did not know about mentors or sponsors. I didn’t even know that those names or terms existed. I certainly didn’t know anything about networking. But what I did know was that, keep your head down and work really hard. So I got to see corporate America kind of in its heyday. When you’re working for those types of firms, you actually get to see the world at a pretty high level, even though you might be doing pretty mundane things as an entry level employee.

But what it turned me on to and what I’m very grateful for was I got to really learn about the media business. And I realized pretty quickly that, Hey, this is actually where I want to be. And so I came home to my father, who had worked so hard and given us so much opportunity and said, Dad, I really don’t like this accounting thing very much. I think I want to try something else. And he said, Gemma, you can do anything. And he didn’t make me feel bad that I had just spent four years studying accounting, which is a great degree. I highly recommend it. Working at Ernst and Young was a great experience. But, it was time for me to make the jump.

You’ll hear often in my career, I kind of jump off cliffs and eventually fly. It doesn’t always go seamlessly, but it happens. And so I jumped. And so it wasn’t easy to have someone to have a media company hire an accountant, because certainly they didn’t think I had a marketing background and I didn’t, but I was entry level. And so it was a great time to kind of jump in and make a career switch. So I was fortunate enough. I actually started out at a company called Rainbow Advertising. So I got to see the world of advertising. And then I landed this fantastic job working for a woman. Her name is Katie McEnroe at AMC Networks. And that was where I had that first moment of: I see her, I want to be her.

Andi Simon: Ah.

Gemma Toner: And she was president of this network. We were in heavy distribution and marketing mode. And it was run by Josh Sapan at the time, another fantastic human being to work for. And it was probably one of the best experiences I could ever have. I got to see so much. I got to do so much. We were all so supportive of each other. We were very aggressive, but in an okay way, at a time in the telecommunications industry where it was really a bonanza of creativity and technology and distribution, it was just all these new things that were coming out.

And so from there, that was sort of how I landed in corporate, and then towards the end of my time at AMC Networks, I got really fascinated with this thing, I’m going to date myself a bit, called New Media. And I was always a bit of a geek. And, you know, I love computers and machines and things like that. And so I was able to persuade my boss at the time to create a new job, which was, how do we create content for this new medium, the internet. And more importantly, it wasn’t just about the internet because this was, again, where you had to dial up. It was really about this next thing that was coming, which was high speed data, which most people didn’t even know the name of.

So I got to create content. We learned, we made a lot of mistakes. I learned very early on that the programming and the content had to be really short. And this was way back, like in 2000. We knew it needed to be short. So we made a lot of mistakes along the way. But it was a great ride, and I share that because that transitioned me to yet my next gig, which was, I got asked to interview for this job working at a company here in New York called Cablevision to run this fledgling product called Optimum Online. And at the time it had a lot of optimism. And the CEO of Cablevision and President wanted someone that had a really good branding background. And if there’s anything AMC Networks can do, it really teaches you how to brand and how important it is and to understand your audience. And all of that will follow through as we talk about Tone Networks.

So anyway, I was fortunate enough to land the job, and at the time, I’ll just say, so for anyone that ever has had this experience, I landed the job, I got married and then ended up becoming pregnant all within like three months. So I thought to myself, what in the world have I just done to myself? But I did it. So I jumped again, jumping into a big cliff or off a big cliff. And it was probably the hardest job I’ve ever had. You know, it was, now I was working at a cable company. It was heavy in the technology space. We were also in a place where people didn’t know what high speed access was and they kind of liked that old dial up sound. So it was quite a challenge.

But it was really the beginning of a fantastic career journey at this cable company because not only did I get to be a part of launching and building that, but I also got to be a part of launching other new technologies at the company, namely Optimum Voice. I got to be a part of that team, as well as Optimum WiFi and then again at Cablevision. It was very entrepreneurial, even though we were a publicly traded company. It had great visionaries at the top and mentors.

Quite honestly, I got picked to solve a problem. And the problem was, Here we were, this company that had all of this data, and this was again early, before it was even called big data. And what could we do with it? How could we monetize it? How can we make products? And so I got to do something that I never in my wildest dreams imagined I would do, which was to run this data analytics team. And they were brilliant. And, again, it really speaks to you may not have to know how to do it. You just need to know how to lead and have some vision.

Because truly, Andi, you and I were talking about one of my main criteria was, I needed a social anthropologist. We needed to understand what all this data and behavioral data meant. But we had data scientists. I mean, it was just an extraordinary time and we ended up creating new products. We ended up getting some patents. And so that was really my life in corporate America. And it was a wild ride. It was not easy, I want to be really clear. I think so many people come on podcasts or do media and interviews and they don’t share that. It was hard. It was really hard. I cried a lot, I want to be honest. I cried myself to work some days with the pressure and everything that was coming at me.

But, you know, I think one of my mentors always said, keep going. And I think that is something that I want everyone to remember. Just keep going. Keep going through it. You’ll get through it. And so I stuck with it. I had this great opportunity, and then I had something very personal happen. And that was, a very good friend of mine who I had watched struggle with colon cancer for five years, passed away. And I went into the office after she had died. I watched her fight day in and day out for another day with her boys. I had this great gig. I got picked for the really cool stuff. It was the hard stuff. But I loved the hard stuff. I had an executive coach.  I got to go to Stanford. I lived 20 minutes from my job. You couldn’t have asked for a better dream job. But I walked in and I was like, I’m done. And I didn’t know it was very emotional. So I wouldn’t say, go do this, but I did. So I’m just being honest and vulnerable. But, I came home that day and I spoke to my husband and I said, I don’t know what it is, but it’s just not this anymore. And so I retired.

When you retire, when you’re kind of at the top of your game and you have a really great gig, people look at you funny. So again, I will let you know that people are like, Why are you leaving right now? You know, here you are a woman, you’re at the top of it, it didn’t make a lot of sense. But what I knew inside was that I needed something different. And that’s all I knew. I did not have a strategic plan, so I recommend others have a strategic plan. Mine was a very emotional decision, but I also needed to take a break.

And so what I did was having had an executive coach, which is truly life-changing and transformative, I knew enough about myself and my own neuroses and my A-type that I am, that I might squander this gift that I had given myself, which I thought was retirement. And I thought, I need to have my executive coach help me through this because the last thing I want to do was to lose this time worrying about what’s next and not use it. I’ve worked for as long as I can remember. Well, we had monthly meetings, and she really helped me keep on that path of taking this time for yourself, rediscover yourself. I also had a girlfriend who gave me a book, which I highly recommend. And Brené Brown, if you’re listening, I want to be your best friend, which is daring greatly.  And it was really about vulnerability. And that really resonated with me because I did not grow up in an environment where I felt I could be vulnerable. Making vulnerability equate with courage really spoke to me. It really sung to me.

And so during my retirement, I got asked to be on those boards, which was fantastic. And I have another story which will take way too long, but it is about saying no. So we’ll save that for the next podcast. But that was about how I ended up getting on those boards and how that snowballed, which was fantastic. And then during my, I guess you would call it a sabbatical, I got asked to serve on the Board of Concern Worldwide, and I hadn’t heard of it. They were happening. They were looking for someone with a data analytics and marketing background. So I just happened to get lucky and interview for that position, and I thought this was for me, Andi. I thought, this is it. I want to give back. I need something more. I’ve done the corporate America thing and I thought, okay, thank you, thank you God, here it is. And so that’s how I proceeded.

Now, as being a board member, I was supposed to go to Haiti and go on a trip. And at the time, Haiti became too unstable for us to go. And so that trip was canceled, and I got to speak at a women’s leadership conference because I was able to say yes to that. And I was very vulnerable. I didn’t know what I was doing. It was for women in cable and telecommunications. And Maria Brennan, who was the CEO, called me and said, You need to talk about career pivots at the senior leadership conference. I was like, Marie, Maria, I’m in a personal pivot. Why would anyone want to hear from me? It’s like, that’s exactly why you have to. So I think Brené Brown is playing in my head and I think, I have to go and be brave, got to be courageous. And so I go and that blows my mind.

This is a senior leadership conference in an industry where there’s a lot of access to learning and great organizations that deliver education. And I was like, why are these women, some of them I know, why are they who are here to talk, going to listen to what I have to say? So I said, here’s how I did it. And I was retired. So I had some headspace and I’m walking back to get the train home. And I thought, I’m no different than all those women that were in that room. So what was it that made me able to make the jumps that I did? And all these super talented women are struggling, and I thought I had access. And what does that mean, access? That means, for better or worse, somehow, because I didn’t know what a mentor sponsor was, I got access to a mentor, I got access to role models, I got access to sponsors, I got that executive coach.

And all of those things are scarce resources. Right at the end of the day, there’s not enough of them. Not everybody gets that. I understand the economics of executive coaching. It’s really expensive. And so I started to think about, what can I do about this? And I was like, Hang on, I know how to build software, I know content, I know data analytics. Wait a second. And so then I just started rocking on what could this be? And there you have it. So that was a very long-winded story of my drift from getting into being an immigrant, getting into corporate America, and then actually starting to create the idea of what a company could be.

Andi Simon: But, I mean, remember, our job is to help people get off the brink. And you are an extraordinary role model, because in many ways, it wasn’t as if you had a destination. You were curious and that curiosity and trust in yourself, and you can call it vulnerability. But that’s a word that often doesn’t mean anything. So just a cool word. Just supposed to be vulnerable. Well, what does that really mean? But what you found was that if you trusted your own feelings, calm instincts, you made some good decisions. Doesn’t sound like you had many detours along the way, but you might have. 

Gemma Toner: Oh, I did.

Andi Simon: Yeah, I know we won’t talk about it again. I want to be honest.

Gemma Toner: I made lots of mistakes. You know, those were the highlights. You know, everybody makes mistakes. And so, again, I just like to be practical and honest. If you’re not out there swinging and you’re going to miss a lot, you’re not going to get some of those peaks, right? I think that’s really important for us to communicate because none of this is all hard. 

Andi Simon: Well, you’re talking about chance. You know, it could have been luck, yes, but life is a series of showing up. People say, How did you grow your business? I say, I showed up because who knows what’s going to happen in the elevator when you meet Renée Mauborgne and she becomes a blue ocean strategist? I mean, the conversations are trusting that there’s some magic here that’s going to be, I don’t know, magical. And so you have moved along without saying, I need to go help women, but you had an experience.

And I want to emphasize that to our listeners. There was something experiential that said, Ooh, what is it? I could help those women because they need to see things through a fresh lens, and have the trust that this is why they feel the way they do?

Why don’t you begin your next story? Talk to us about Tone Networks because I am intrigued by how we can help women become the best they can be. I like men too, but it doesn’t matter whether you’re a guy or gal. I’ve coached both. I have many of them as clients but they all come and the brain hates change. It creates cortisol that says, This hurts. Help me do it. How am I going to help you do this? Because you need to do it. We need to figure out a way for you to see yourself in a new fashion, try some new things.

So Tone Networks. And I’m not even sure how to understand the name of it because it’s not physical. It’s not toning you up, but it is toning you up. Um, so I’m curious. I’m curious. Out of it came this platform that is helping people, women in particular, become the best they can be. You share with us. How do you see it? How did you create it?

Gemma Toner: You know, it’s so funny yourself. It really is. Everything that I learned throughout that long-winded story I just shared with you really is used in the creation of this business. And so the data geek in me, how do you start a company? You know, again, I came from corporate, where I had started lots of new products. And so I knew my process which isn’t necessarily what most startups do. So I was starting up as someone with corporate experience, so I don’t know that I did it the right way, but I did it my way and my way was to start to really understand what the challenges women had. I didn’t want to just trust my own self.

And so we went out and did research and we did primary research. We did a national study, and we asked questions like, What stands in the way of your personal and professional development? Because long before the pandemic shone a light on the challenges that women have, I was a firm believer in my personal life did not get left at the threshold of my office door, that my personal and professional life were deeply intertwined, and the technology was going to make it even deeper.

And so if we were going to solve and try to help women, I think we had to acknowledge that you didn’t have clear boundaries. An example would be, I’m just about to go into a meeting and my daughter would text me. You know, Mom, I need you. But I mean, it happens to everyone. And whether it’s a child or a parent or whatever, the gift of technology is we’re more connected. It also interrupts us in some ways. So that’s what we really looked to solve and what we did tons of research on, and I love research. So again, this is the geeky part of me.

And what it bubbled up to were a couple of things. And it was when you asked women, all different ages, quite honestly, not just early- to mid-, all different types of women in different types of business categories. And it was this time factor. I don’t have time to do sort of traditional learning. Access was made for me. I don’t have time to go searching for everything and I just make it what I can. It’s just for me, make it feel like it’s just for me. And then the last, which is sort of the saddest, but it’s a reality. It was confidence. And tucked under confidence was permission. And that whether we like it or not, the majority of women that were part of this study, and it was a statistically significant study, we’re like, I need permission to take care of me. And I’m like, okay, so if that’s what we need to do, then let’s figure out how we can do this.

And so that was really the beginning. And that became the pillars of Tone Networks. And so what Tone sets out to do is use microlearning. I am not a learning and development specialist. I know what it is to build products and content that engage audiences. And so that’s really how we’ve created this learning tool. We’ve created it more like you would create a media experience than an education experience. We have no textbooks because what we’re really looking to be is your TikTok for your personal professional development.

So instead of going into that death scroll of Instagram or Snapchat or whatever, you can just jump on Tone and do something good for yourself and really enrich yourself. And so that’s really our goal. That’s how we make an impact. And what’s really cool is we use technology to make it very personalized. So we ask you what you’re interested in. The last thing I want to do is waste your time because I know how precious it is, because I’ve been there and I do not want to serve you things that you’re not interested in. So if you are not a working parent, a working mom, we’re not going to send you progressive parenting videos because that’s not respectful. We need to be respectful of your time so that if you only have 3 or 5 minutes today because honestly, you just can’t breathe, you can’t catch a break, it’s okay. We’ve got you.

And so that’s really how we developed the product. But we also developed it knowing, and again I know you’re expert in this, behavioral change. And how do you know the nudge theory of behavioral change? So we’ve listened to women and they say, Make it for me. Make it easy. Give me a one, two, three because the last thing I want to do is write an essay or get homework, I have a long enough to-do list. And so what we did was, we made these really short-form videos, and at the end of every video we have your Tone Takeaways, which is kind of your one, two, three. The system actually sends you positive reinforcement the next morning and says, thank you for watching. Here are your Tone Takeaways. Why not? Because I’m being polite, but I am a very polite person. But because I want to remind you, you did something good for yourself and here you go.

You can tell we worked with neuroscientists as well. We can pull that information out and recall it. And you know what, maybe you can take that first step or maybe you’ll just watch it again. That’s okay. Change is hard. I’m so with you when you say that, right? It is so hard. So that’s part of the way the product works for the end user because we were designed to be both a consumer platform and a B2B platform. Right now we’re working on the B2B front, but trust me, I want all women to get access to this, whether you’re in corporate America or not. But today, that’s where we are.

And so what we can also do is help inform our business partners, the companies we work with, with a new data set. But this comes back to, my data geek days are anonymized. Why is it anonymized? Because if you won’t watch, my boss is a narcissist. If you know that your company is tracking you. And you know what, if you have a boss that’s a narcissist, you should know how to handle that. And I’m okay with that. If you don’t have a boss, you have someone in your life. Everyone’s got a narcissist somewhere. I mean, it’s just an upward trend in our society.

But the game plan here is to add value and new insights and to really be a contender. We are not looking to be your typical learning and development platform. There’s plenty of companies out there doing that. We’re really looking to deliver the knowledge that you get from having access to executive coaches and experts. The really good stuff that you get deeper in your career. Why shouldn’t women have that earlier? Because my goodness, it really is life changing.

And so that’s really how we set out to do it. It was really listening to the audience talk about mistakes. I made a lot of mistakes. It took us a long time to get the format right, to get the tone right. We’re in a good place now. I have to brag a little. We do have an NPS of 66, which is pretty darn amazing for such a young company.

Andi Simon: So just saying, are you better with an NPS?

Gemma Toner: Net promoter score? And so that’s when you just have a simple question. You know, Would you refer a friend or family member to this? And the good news is, a majority, and that’s a really hard number to get, of people are saying, Yeah, I would. So we have 95% of our business clients renewing. We know we’re hitting it. And I think we’re hitting it because, again, women don’t have much time. And we have to really redesign and re-engineer how we run our lives, and you know how we are.

Andi Simon: You know, Gemma, I’m listening and smiling because I share many of the same purposes and passions of wanting to take what we know and multiply it so others can rise with it. Sandra Quince says, As I climb the ladder, I lift other women with me. And I said, What a beautiful way of talking about what all of us are really interested in doing, not simply being acknowledged for accomplishments as you were and staying there, but thinking, I mean, your sabbatical was a growth period for you, but it didn’t stay there. It wasn’t just me on board. It was what I learned that I can now share and multiply joyfully so that I can lift others. And that is not inconsequential. And yeah, you can go speak, but when I walk out of the room at the end of a gig, as I know I want them to do one small win, you know, do an Oprah, one small win to lead you forward. But when will that be? How will I change? And it is purposeful and passionate. But you’re also having a good time, aren’t you?

Gemma Toner: I am, and I have to also credit my mom and dad for, again, you know, being immigrants and coming here with not much in their pockets. I think what they instilled in us was, and I saw it, there were so many people that helped them along the way and I recognized that but I didn’t know the terms. But the people that I would say helped me along the way, those mentors and sponsors, I don’t forget them. And what I recognized when I had a moment to like, think and take a beat, was that not everybody gets that. And so that’s where I think my father would always say, Never forget where you came from, always put out a helping hand. And that’s the truth.

And so I think, it does for me, it matters about my humble beginnings and being able to help more because we live in this country and we’ve been really fortunate. That means you give back. Let me clarify, I’m a capitalist. So this is not a nonprofit business. I believe in capitalism. And I also believe capitalism is probably the most effective way to create social change and upward mobility for women. But that’s why I’m doing this.

Andi Simon: You don’t have to justify yourself.

Gemma Toner: It’s just, I think it’s really important because someone says, Oh, is this a non-profit? I’m like, no, no, we’re not.

Andi Simon: You know, I met someone who’s trying to change the way kids understand debt and it’s not a not-for-profit. She’s finally made herself a for-profit. And I said, That’s good. It’s okay to make money and to spread it. It’s okay to remove the guilt factor because I’m in here for some profit. I don’t quite know why we’ve given that such a bad name, but I do think there’s something else about you as a woman leading others.

People ask me, Do women lead differently? And I say, Well, I’ve had dozens of clients. And I was in corporate life for a long time. And are women different from men? Yes. But leaders need followers, and they don’t follow people casually. They follow people they trust who can get them someplace together and who they believe are authentic and want to be accountable to. Do you find, you’ve had some good women bosses and men bosses, and do you think that women are leading differently or are we just women? 

Gemma Toner: I think it depends, and I think it’s, men, women, it really depends on the individuals. There’s some great male leaders. There’s some great women leaders. There’s also both not so great, so do I think I led differently? Probably not early in my career. I would say I, probably just like the female role models that I was emulating, they were leading like men. And so I would say as I became more comfortable as a leader,  I definitely had a different approach. I actually sometimes, early in my career, when I was running a region, when I saw my old team, I apologized to them. And I’m like, Thank you for still being my friend because I was really rough around the edges as a young leader. And you kind of grow into, at least I did, grow into the way you want to lead.

Andi Simon: Well, I do think that the value you brought to everyone along the entire way was your curiosity, this kind of openness to see things through. You wanted to bring a social anthropologist on because we know that out of context, data do not exist. What does all this data mean? Well, it can mean anything. I want it for myself. So which data do I have to do? And then how do I interpret it so that it makes the most sense. So it’s really interesting.

I think you and I could talk a great deal for a lot of reasons, and I’m enjoying every minute of it. Thank you for sharing with us today. For our audience, one or two or three things you don’t want them to forget? What would be some real good takeaways?

Gemma Toner: You know, I have to say, the takeaway, as much as I was long-winded is, You don’t forget where you came from. You know, always look back. I also think some of the takeaways that I had in the book really are important to me. And that is, Get out there and just start, raise your hand. Even though I can tell you, most of the big opportunities I had, I was not the first choice. And that’s okay. It’s okay to be the consolation prize because it’s what you make of it. And they were great opportunities. Two of my big opportunities, I was not the first choice, but I hung in there and I didn’t have all the skills they wanted. But, last man standing, I got it, you know? So I think that’s really important because so many of us are just like, Oh no, that’s over my head. No it’s not, give it a go.

I think the other is, Just keep going. It’s hard. Let’s not kid ourselves and let’s not mislead each other with, sort of saying, it’s all perfect. It’s not, but you will get through it. And I think what’s really important about that is, and it does take a little time, and I didn’t always do this myself, so I want to be really honest about finding people that are like you that can support you. So it’s having that personal board of directors. It’s also having a few friends and friendly faces that can help you when you’re just having a really tough day and can also celebrate with you as well.

Andi Simon: Well, we’re people and we need others, and they need to be trusting and trustworthy. And trusting is important, that we have folks we can turn to and can I just vent? You know, it’s not an uncommon call I make to my favorite friend, can I just vent? Then by the time I’m done, she says, You feel better? I said, Oh, that was perfect. I just needed a safe and an executive coach. But even there, sometimes you just go talk to your friend, let it come out.

You know, we had an ERG presentation the other day, for Eightfold, a company out on the West Coast, a software designing company. Really cool folks. One of the women said, you know, do women really have to check off all the boxes before they can move up? And all of us, there were three of us, said, That’s not how you’re going to move up. The move up really comes when you really don’t know what you don’t know, because you can’t possibly ever have all the boxes checked. Believe in yourself and offer yourself as a smart person who can grow. And those are better words than, Am I ready? You’re never ready then. You know, I never became ready.

Gemma Toner: And I like to remind my team, We’ll figure it out.

Andi Simon: Yes, we’ll figure it out. It’s a complex problem to solve. That’s exactly right.

Gemma Toner: Figure it out and just know you don’t have to figure it out by yourself. You can ask a lot of people to help you.

Andi Simon: Yes, and you won’t ever be exactly right. Perfection isn’t really necessary. And so all kinds of wisdoms. This is such fun. So let me wrap up. I do want to thank you, and the National Association of Women Business Owners, who owns the trademark on our book Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And we always like to recognize them and thank them for the use of their title for our book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success.

And as you can hear, Gemma Toner is one of those extraordinary leaders. And our conversation today was to help you spark your success. Get off the brink. Keep going. Be perfect. The books are all on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. My three books are there, with the third one, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman. I hope you have fun with them. I actually had somebody shoot a picture of one of my books on the beach where he was reading it and I went, Oh my gosh, a beach read. I didn’t know I had a beach read!

Gemma Toner: Andi, can I plug one event that we have coming up? It’s going to be in March. It’s a pay equity event that’s free for all women. So all of your listeners and men are welcome. LinkedIn will be promoting it everywhere. It’s really about getting women particularly equitable pay. And this will not be about talking about the stats. This will actually be practical tips as to how you make sure you are getting paid fairly. So mark your calendar in March.

Andi Simon: Sometime in March though, we have to come back to Tone sometime in March.

Gemma Toner: It’ll be on the day. Yeah, it’s actually, we’re just waiting to get the actual date. March 15th, something like that. It’s on Pay Equity Day. It’s something, again, you talk about purpose. It’s very important to us.

Andi Simon: Despite the fact that Barack Obama signed the Lilly Ledbetter Law in January of 2009. It’s not always true that women get paid what they should get paid for the same job that the guy is, much less at the same time. It’s really tough. Oh, boy, we can keep going, but we’re not. We’re going to sign off, say goodbye. Come again. Send me your favorites so I can bring them on. And I have a lot of great women and men to share with you coming up. It’s been wonderful. Goodbye now, and thanks again. Bye bye.

 

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Learn how to nurture your unique gifts for a career you really love.

I bring to you today Lorraine Hariton, a brilliant women with a brilliant career who shows us that success doesn’t have to come in a straight line, it can have many twists and turns. As one of the 102 women featured in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success, co-authored by Edie Fraser, Robyn Freedman Spizman and myself, Lorraine is President and CEO of Catalyst, a powerhouse non-profit dedicated to helping women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. What I love is that Catalyst not only focuses on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but on changing the work environment by creating workplaces that work for women. Want to learn about the future of work? Listen in.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

Key takeaways from my conversation with Lorraine

• Life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it.
• In terms of your skills, what do you have with which you can contribute the most to this world? 
• There are lots of chapters in life. Make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next.
• Life can take you in different directions, but you’ve got to be a lifelong learner. You’ve got to lean into your strengths. 
• Periods of transition can be real opportunities.
• Align your strengths and what you really love to do behind your passions.

To connect with Lorraine, you can find her on LinkedIn.

Want to know more about women breaking barriers in the workforce? Start with these:

• Blog: How Can Women Overcome The Roadblocks To Building Their Businesses?
• Blog: Best Tips And Tricks For Women To Work In Male-Dominated Industries
• Podcast: Kerry Flynn Barrett—Learn Why So Many Brilliant Women Have Ditched The Corporate Ladder To Start Their Own Business
• Pocast: Jennifer McCollum—How Will You Change The Face Of Women’s Leadership In Your Organization?

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. And as you know, because so many of you come to listen to our podcast, my job is to get you off the brink. I want you to see, feel and think in new ways so you can change, and the times are changing quickly now. I look for guests who are going to help you understand things from a fresh perspective.

Today I have Lorraine Hariton here with me. She is a marvelous person who is in our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success. And when you hear what she’s going to tell you today, you’ll know why Women Mean Business has been such an absolutely amazing experience. Every time I open the book, it sheds new light on what women are doing in business. Lorraine’s bio: She’s president and CEO of Catalyst. Now, if you’re not familiar with Catalyst, it’s a global nonprofit working with the world’s most powerful CEOs and leading companies to build workplaces that work for women.

Catalyst’s vision and mission are to accelerate progress for women through workplace inclusion. This lifelong passion for Lorraine has helped her build a career with senior level positions in Silicon Valley as an entrepreneur and executive, and beginning at IBM, Lorraine then served in the administration in the Department of State and developed the global STEM Alliance at the New York Academy of Sciences. She has also served on the UN Women Global Innovation Coalition For Change, the Clayman Institute for Gender Research at Stanford University, and the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives, but it is as president of Catalyst that I met Lorraine. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today: about what organizations can do to really build workplaces that work for women. Lorraine, thank you so much for coming today.

Lorraine Hariton: Andrea, thank you so much. It’s my pleasure to be here.

Andi Simon: It’s so much fun. Tell the audience more about your journey because I can read the bio. But you’ve had a wonderful career with a passion and purpose, and I’d like you to share that if you could.

Lorraine Hariton: So first of all, I want to say that the career that you just talked about is very different from the career I might have imagined when I was young. It’s gone in a lot of different directions. And I look forward to sort of talking about that. So when I was a child, my biggest influence was really my mother, specifically when she came into the workplace, which was in the 50s. She was originally a teacher. And like many of her generation, she went back. She left the workplace when she had her three children. But then she went back and got a master’s degree and eventually a PhD in psychology, actually around women’s sexual fantasies during intercourse. It was very controversial. She ended up on the front cover of Psychology Today, and then she had the next phase, a career as a psychologist and a lecturer out on Long Island. So she really gave me a sense that you can have different phases in your life, you can accomplish different things, and women should have independent, strong careers.

So she was a big influence. Then the other big influence on me was, I had dyslexia, I still have dyslexia. And because of that, I had certain real strengths and certain things that were limitations. I wasn’t very popular. I wasn’t a great athlete, but I was good in math. I ended up using that math ability to have a career in technology very early on. In fact, when I was in college — I originally went to college in upstate New York, at Hamilton College — my calculus professor suggested that I take an independent study computer science course at Hamilton College before there were even computers on campus. We just had a teletype terminal into the Air Force base in Rome, New York. But I wrote my own computer program. I fell in love with it, and it caused me to transfer to Stanford, where even at Stanford, they didn’t actually have a computer science degree. Undergraduate is math sciences, math, computer science, statistics, and operations research. But it really gave me this great foundation into something that my first passion was really around: computers and the application of computers into solving problems.

So I transferred to Stanford. I got a sense of that environment. I ended up taking a job, actually, back in New York for American Airlines, doing a big linear programming model for ferrying fuel around the American Airline system. But, I decided I didn’t really like just programming. I wanted to do something that was more people oriented within the computer industry. So at that time, IBM was a big place to work. It was like the Google or the Apple of the time.

So I got a job actually in sales working for IBM, and I worked in the apparel industry in New York, knocking on doors, selling mid-sized computers to the apparel industry, which was really fun. I really enjoyed it and I excelled at it. So I decided I wanted to be on the business side of the technology industry. I went back to Harvard Business School, got my MBA, and decided to go back to California working for IBM, the next level in the sales track at IBM. And there was the other reason I went back to IBM: to look into all the jobs at Harvard Business School that IBM had for women in leadership roles. It had the ability to balance career and family and a proven track record of enabling women to do that. I was really looking for a workplace where I could be successful balancing career and family, which is still the number one challenge for women in business.

And, through my work at Catalyst, I see that every day. So I went back to IBM, but eventually I went into Silicon Valley. IBM actually acquired a company in Silicon Valley. I went to work for them. And then I ended up having a career at IBM. So I started in Silicon Valley, started at IBM, and then I left them to go to become an executive at a mid-sized company. And eventually I actually did two startups in Silicon Valley. So I had a career at all these different levels.

But in my early 50s, I wanted to really do something that was more impactful. I had had a successful career there and I became involved in women’s leadership issues because really that was a defining thing around my success and my lived experience. I initially got involved in the Forum for Women Entrepreneurs and Executives that became WaterMark. That was a women’s leadership network in Silicon Valley. I really benefited from my relationships that I had with women in Silicon Valley. We all bonded together. We even did great trips, like we went to India and Vietnam together. I went to the Clayman Institute for Gender Research. I then decided to, after I left my second startup, to get involved in helping Hillary Clinton run for President of the United States in the 2008 cycle.

So I took all my sales skills and my business skills that I had learned, and I focused on fundraising for her. And as a result of that, I became one of her top fundraisers in the Bay area and really expanded my network. I got to know a lot of people and that enabled me to go to work for her, even though she didn’t win the the nomination, of course, we all know, but to work for her at the State Department as a special representative for commercial and business affairs. And, by the way, through all of this, I had my two children. I raised my two children in Palo Alto, California. And of course, that was the other part of my life that was, is, and continues to be very important. I now have three grandchildren as well as part of that.

So that balance of career and family has always been important to me. I also will mention that being in Silicon Valley in tech in those days had a lot of challenges. And I think that is why that’s been so important to me as the second major passion that has driven my life. This focus on women in the workplace, and understanding that I was part of the first generation of women who really came of age after the very substantial change in the women’s movement that happened in the late 60s and early 70s, that opened up the doors for women to have real careers. 

Like my mother, in her generation, you didn’t have young children and work. You couldn’t go into the workplace and have a career. We read about Sandra Day O’Connor recently. We know that she wasn’t able to do that. Ruth Bader Ginsburg wasn’t able to do that. I was part of that generation that went into the workplace that was able to look ahead and develop a career, and was thinking about balancing career and family. But we had a very, very rigid environment.

You know, when I had my first child in 1985, we had to order business maternity suits from a catalog. I could only take six weeks off because they didn’t have maternity leaves. They just had disability, and when I’ve met with some of my friends and we talked about this, we all had the same circumstances, didn’t have the type of environment that you have right now. So I have that perspective of wanting to change that workplace. And we still have work to do on that.

So my reason for wanting to help Hillary at the time when I had the luxury to be able to do that, was because I really wanted to see the world change in the first woman president. But not only did I pursue that passion and use the skills that I had learned through my business and for my sales career to help her, it opened up a whole new avenue for me that became the next chapter in my life for ten years, really focused on that.

So I went to the State Department, and in the State Department, it was great. I was able to travel all around the world representing the United States, help businesses overseas, do diplomatic agenda around economic and business issues. And I also launched a big program called the Global Entrepreneurship Program, which is still at the State Department, where we worked on capacity-building in countries to take our innovation agenda and bring it overseas as part of our diplomatic agenda. So that was a very fulfilling experience.

I left in 2014 because it was a political appointment. It ended and then I thought, well, I think there’s a very good chance she would run again. So I did a portfolio career of doing consulting. I worked at the New York Academy of Science, as you mentioned, doing business development for them, and launched this Global STEM Alliance program. I launched a great program called 1000 Girls, 1000 Futures, which was a virtual mentoring program for girls in STEM.

I helped Hillary but of course, we know the end of that story and that didn’t happen. And by then I was lucky enough to be recruited to Catalyst, which has been just a wonderful opportunity for me. So I joined them in 2018. I am going to be retiring from Catalyst when we find a replacement. So it’s been about a five and a half years’ journey at this point that’s been really fulfilling for me because it really has aligned this great passion I have with all the things I’ve learned over my career to really make change for that organization and to really impact women in the workplace.

Andi Simon: You know, as I listen to you, and I want to stay focused on your career, but for the listener or the viewer, there wasn’t a straight line. This was a journey with detours and serendipity and moments and all kinds of things that you capitalized on. Were you particularly risk averse or were you particularly adventuresome? I mean, when I take my archetype, I’m an explorer or a philosopher, and I’ve been to 37 countries and I worked abroad many times. I, like you, don’t need a structure, I need opportunity. I need an adventure. Sounds like you have had adventure through life without care about whether or not it was the end, it was onto something new. Tell the listener a little bit about how you do that? Do you do that with that particular mindset that simply says, go for it, what the heck? Or do you have to plan it out?

Lorraine Hariton: Well, you know, I’ve evolved over time. I am very planful. And in the beginning of my career, I was focused. When I joined IBM, they had a clear path for you. You didn’t have to think about it. “This is what you needed to do.” And I bought into that path. Over time, sometimes when I had my biggest bumps in my life because I’ve been fired, I’ve been put someplace else, maybe not fired, but it was a detour. Those things have happened. But, you know, out of those things, in those moments of reflection, is when I think I was able to grow the most, to really learn and reflect on my strengths and weaknesses and what motivates me and to reorient myself. These periods of transition can be real opportunities.

And in my late 40s and early 50s is when I really started to understand that what I needed to do is to align my strengths and what I really love to do behind my passions, and to let the universe help me understand what those passions are. And in fact, that’s what I’m doing right now, as I look to my next chapter after Catalyst. I’m trying to open up the aperture and give myself time to evolve and think and let the universe take me in the direction, but with an understanding of what I really enjoy, where I have passion, what I’m really good at, where I give, and even in this moment, I try this out, I’m not that excited. Try this out, yes, I’m really excited about it.

And yes, I find that I can do the things that I really am in the zone on, that I naturally do well and then I focus on those things. So that evolution, it’s not really a risk thing. I’m a pragmatist. I’m very practical, focused, like a doer, but this understanding that life can take you in different directions, but you’ve got to be a lifelong learner. You’ve got to lean into your strengths. You got to evolve those is the way I found the most meaning and purpose and fulfillment.

Andi Simon: And to your point, when people say to me, how did you get to be a corporate anthropologist? I say, I made it up. And they say, you know, the imposter syndrome. I say, I’ve lived my whole life doing imposter stuff. I’ve never been fully skilled at whatever I’ve been. I spent 20 years in industry as an executive, in banks and in health care. I was a tenured professor, and I’ve been in business for 21 years now, making it up as we go along because each client’s different, each opportunity is different. But the joy is the joy of creating.

And I think that what you’ve done at Catalyst, and I want to go back to Catalyst for a moment, because I do think it’s been joyful for you, but it’s been a creative process. My hunch is, you’ve brought it along in a way that has been quite meaningful for you in the organization. Can you share with us a little bit about your own thoughts about Catalyst, about what’s happened in women in the workplace? Because this is not inconsequential. When I was an executive, I went to board meetings. There were 49 men and no other women than me. We didn’t say much. We sat there hoping we could finish the meeting without getting in trouble. It’s a different world today. What do you see happening and how is Catalyst doing stuff?

Lorraine Hariton: Well, when I came to Catalyst in 2018, Catalyst had been around almost 60 years, and it’s an iconic organization. For those of you who are not familiar, we have around 500 major corporations. We have a board of directors made up of CEOs of major organizations. I mean, it’s really a who’s who and has a tremendous brand, but the organization itself had lost some momentum. So I was brought as a change agent. I sometimes say, it was this beautiful brownstone in Brooklyn Heights that the old lady had not been renovating as much as they should have.

So I had to do a lot of infrastructure and internal changes as well as set the strategy and the plan. It’s really been a transformation. And we’re still transforming. The rate of change, the rate of technological change, is so great that every organization needs to move forward. And what Catalyst needed to do as an organization has changed over time. We celebrated our 60th anniversary a couple of years ago, so I really had a lot of opportunities to reflect on what Catalyst was.

Catalyst started with a woman who had been a Smith College graduate who wanted to go into business, and after her children got into school, she saw the doors were closed for her because in many cases, classified as gendered. You know, you could be a secretary, but you couldn’t be a salesperson. You couldn’t be an executive. Very limited choice. So her objective was to provide part time work for educated women after their kids were in school. That’s what she was trying to do.

Today we’re trying to help women thrive, from the shop floor to the C-suite, so that everyone can be successful by their own definition. Now, along the way, there’s been a lot of changes in what Catalyst focused on. And of course, what happened for women in the workplace. One of the key things that changes Catalyst is a focus not only on how women can be effective and improve their capabilities and skills, but how we change the work environment. That’s why we now talk about our mission of creating workplaces that work for women.

So a lot of Catalyst’s work is helping these companies create the environment where women can be successful. Catalyst does research and it provides a whole range of tools and capabilities to help these companies be successful, and then a lot of community and convenings to bring them together to share best practices, the need for tools and capabilities, in addition to research, has accelerated over the last ten years or so as companies really dig in to make those changes to create that environment that works for women.

So we think about things like: now we call them paternity leaves, not just maternity leaves. And in many cases in the large companies, they’re as much as four months and they’re trying to get men to do them as well as women. That’s a sea change, more flexibility. The whole pandemic accelerated this move to more flexible working, but that’s something Catalyst has been talking about for a long time. Measuring change is really important and that’s evolved.

Our most recent report that we’re going to be putting out shows that 93% of companies, large companies in the Catalyst portfolio, do pay equity studies. Now, even five years ago, they were not doing that. So that’s changed. The environment has changed radically and Catalyst has evolved with it. Also the infrastructure to support the types of skills we need, the type of technology we need, has evolved with it. But you know, just to think about this, today there are over 10% women CEOs in the Fortune 500. In my early career in the 80s and the 90s, every year that they would come out with the Fortune 500, I would look and the only person who was the CEO was Katharine Graham, who took over The Washington Post when her husband committed suicide. Now she did a great job, but she was not doing it all on her own merit.

What we see is the women who came into the workplace, like I did in the early 70s, early to mid-70s, all but in the 1950s, all entered the workplace in the 70s. Those are the ones who became CEOs around the turn of the 21st century, starting with Jill Barad at Mattel, Andrea Jung at Avon, Anne Mulcahy at Xerox, followed by Ursula Burns, Ginni Rometty at IBM, Indra Nooyi at PepsiCo…a diverse group of really talented, amazing women were the first group who really were able to do that.

Over the last five years, we’ve doubled. We now have over 30% women on boards. And in the Catalyst community, we have over 30%  in senior leadership, in our membership. So what that means is there’s a new norm that’s a critical mass, 30% is critical mass. So we are critical mass on a lot of these measures. That is why Catalyst now is not focusing on women on boards. We’re focusing on how all women can thrive from the shopfloor to the sweep and every level.

So that’s an evolution of who Catalyst is. I’ve been driving that broader definition of success as we’ve evolved to what really needs to be done, and also in response to companies who understand that women have 60% of the undergraduate degrees now. They’re graduating more law degrees and more medical degrees. We have a much more diverse population. We’re focused on diversity. And that is why there’s a lot of things, a lot of political issues around DEI as a word. But the fact of the matter is, companies are very committed, so they know they have to have a diverse workforce. They’ve all got to work together. They’ve all got to feel like they belong. And in the United States and around the world, we have to be able to work together to have a really impactful, innovative workforce. So that’s what we’re working on.

Andi Simon: I am having such fun listening to you. And I don’t know if you and I have had enough time for me to hear, or my audience to hear, how the world has changed. Remember, I’m a corporate anthropologist who helps companies change. What I love to do is change, and what you are articulating is your own career evolved. Catalyst’s whole mission and purpose have evolved, and the workplace that you are focused on is evolving into a whole new and much better, inclusive, exciting place for women to thrive. And isn’t this exciting to watch and see?

I’m not quite sure it’s going to go backwards, because I think that the pressure from talented women for new ways of doing things is going to transform the workplace. You know, how do you have a blended life, if not a balanced life. I met one person who was building childcare at the office because he knew that was the only way he was going to keep his workforce. What’s so hard? Why are we not paying attention to our children? You know, bring them to work and make them part of the whole culture that we have here.

And I don’t think the pandemic has been all that bad. My clients that I coached during that time, we’re actually having a wonderful experience of being home and working and doing it with a different use of time and space. But it’s a really interesting opportunity for you to see that and now to think through what’s next, a radical next. Because I have a hunch you’d love to radically change the next phase in some fashion. It’s technology, it’s transformation, it’s new openness to it. What do you see coming next?

Lorraine Hariton: Well, you mentioned technology and I mentioned I am a technologist by training. Technology drives change now. The changes that allowed women to become part of the workforce were driven by the birth control field, the vacuum cleaner, electrification, the reduction of the need for women to stay home and do all these tasks. The knowledge worker being the key person in the workplace. And that’s only accelerating. So we should understand we are the result of the worlds we live in.

My mother was a result of that. RBG was a result of that. My daughter is going to be a result of the environment that she’s a part of, as well as my grandchildren. So technology is the biggest driver of those changes. We are going to be living in a world where I hope we have more flexibility to integrate career and family, and to really be able to have women really have equal ability to make their own decisions on how they want to balance their life. I mean, that’s what we’re trying to do so that every woman thrives by their own definition of success. So that’s what we’re working towards.

Andi Simon: You know, I’m sitting and listening and I’m hopeful. I have a woman I know who’s president of a large insurance company. And we were sitting and talking not too long ago. She said, Well, let me tell you, I was a coat girl. She said, I’d walk into Lloyd’s of London with a deal, and they’d hand me their coats as the men walked in, one after another, they thought I was a coat girl. And finally after they all had sat down, and I turned around and sat at the head of the table and saidy, Now let me tell you about the deal I brought you. And the guys all went, Oh! And she said, Do you think that will ever stop? And I said, Yes. I’m not sure when but I guess you could have stopped it if you wanted to at that moment. But somehow the woman has to be able to comfortably say, I’m sorry, but the coat rack is over there, or No, I’m not taking notes today. Who shall we have as our note-taker today? How do we assert ourselves in a way that establishes a more balanced role? Now you’re smiling at me. You’re thinking about something. What are you thinking of? 

Lorraine Hariton: I think there’s a two way street here. Catalyst has done a lot of work on this. Not only do the women need to do that, but the men need to become advocates and allies for women in the workplace. In fact, Catalyst has a whole initiative called MARC: Men Advocating Real Change. We’re helping the men understand how they can be part of that change because I think the clearest example is, they say that women don’t negotiate for salary increases as well as men. There’s a big pay gap, and it’s a result of this. It’s not just the women not negotiating. It’s the culture that doesn’t enable them to negotiate.

So a woman in general is much better off with someone else asking. Because it’s like this poster that I have in the back here from an unconscious bias campaign we did which says: She’s not aggressive, she’s assertive. Well, if a man goes and asks for a raise, he’s assertive and he should get a raise. A woman goes in, she’s aggressive, you know. So, we’ve got to do both of those things.

Andi Simon: I often preach that the words we use create the worlds we live in. And you just made an important point there, because the word that you use takes the same behavior and makes it good or bad. And it is very interesting because the definers of those meanings…humans are meaning makers. And if the guys are the definers of the meaning, one thing happens. But somehow we’ve got to get a balance in how we think about the behavior as being. Is it assertive or is it aggressive? Well, it’s the same behavior. Who’s defining it? And how do we then create a mirror back so the women know that that’s the right behavior and the guys understand that that’s not acceptable from them.

I work with some companies where I watch the guys’ backlash and I say, Why don’t we collaborate on the transformation instead of becoming adversarial or resisters to it? Change is humanly painful. The brain hates it. So let’s create a new story because we’re story-makers. And if I can create a new story, then we can live that new story. But if we’re going to fight the story out, it’s going to be quite interesting.

I know too many women who have left corporate because they were tired of the story that put them in the wrong role, and they went out to launch their own business or find some other place. And so it’s an interesting time for women to see what can be done and for men to help create a new environment. Are there some illustrative cases that you can share, or are they all proprietary and it’s not possible to share them? Any kind of story that might illustrate how it’s actually happening?

Lorraine Hariton: Well, I will say there are many, many stories of success. If you go to the Catalyst website, we have tons of success stories, the stories of companies that transformed themselves. We have The Catalyst Award that we give out every year at our big annual conference in Denver. People nominate themselves. They go through an application process. It was very rigorous last year. The Hartford is one of the winners of it. They have transformed the company at every level with all the things we’re talking about, measurements. They were able to get affecting bias sponsorship programs, really changing the fundamental culture of the organization. You can listen to what they do, but there’s hundreds of examples of companies that have done great jobs around it.

And of course, we have lots of examples. I mentioned some of the trailblazers, the Fortune 500, you read interviews, and books. And so there are many, many examples of successes, people who’ve affected the odds. People, companies who’ve done a great job of changing the culture. It’s all over the place. So rather than name a specific one, I think that’s good.

Andi Simon: And if people are looking for companies to work for, they probably can find illustrations at Catalyst and your website to begin to go through. And that is a real resource to be available. You know, this has been such fun. I think that we’re probably ready to share with our listeners or our viewers 1 or 2 things you want them to remember and then how to reach you if they’d like more information about you or about Catalyst. What do you think? 

Lorraine Hariton: That sounds great. I think the overriding thing to say is that life is a journey. And that journey is to understand what your passions are, what gets you excited, what gets you up every day enjoying it, and then what do you really enjoy? In terms of your skills, what do you have the most to contribute to this world? And if you can align those, that’s what I try to do.

The other thing is to realize that there are lots of chapters in life, and you would need to make sure that you have the resiliency and the learning mindset to go from one chapter to the next and open the aperture around it. I’m happy to talk to anyone on this call. You can go to the Catalyst website at catalyst.org if you want to learn more about the work that we’re doing. You can get ahold of me that way as well. I’m going to be going on to my next chapter as well. So I’m opening the aperture up.

Andi Simon: Well, I can’t wait to hear about your next chapter. I have a hunch it’s going to be full of adventure and joy and beauty. And you leave behind you better places and with great purpose. Move forward. So it’s been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today.

Lorraine Hariton: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.

Andi Simon: I just think it’s a special moment to be able to go both into your life and all the work that you’re doing in the wonderful way it’s making a difference for my listeners and my viewers. Thank you for always coming. Remember, our job is to help you see, feel and think of new ways. And I think that a visit to Catalyst might help you see organizations that are already doing this and want to keep it going, and you can as well.

My books Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business and On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, and our new book, Women Mean Business: Over 500 Insights from Extraordinary Leaders to Spark Your Success with Edie Fraser and Robyn Freedman Spizman are all available at Amazon and Barnes & Noble for you. It gives you a perspective both of how anthropology sees the world and helps you change, and what we see happening, particularly for women. 102 women in Women Mean Business are all here to help you change your life.

We often say turn a page and change your life. Lorraine’s chapter is wonderful. I love her little thing. Here she talks about how she navigated with her dyslexia and her principal is major. Your major is to nurture your unique gifts. And that’s what we heard about today. Thanks again. Thanks, Lorraine. It’s been a pleasure. Bye bye.

 

WOMEN MEAN BUSINESS® is a registered trademark of the National Association of Women Business Owners® (NAWBO)

Hear why a great customer experience means everything

I first interviewed Melissa Copeland for this podcast in May of 2022 and loved her story so much that I want to share it, and her, with you again. Melissa had a wonderful career, as so many women have had, only to discover that flying all over the world was not great for her family, or herself. So what did she do? Pivoted and launched Blue Orbit Consulting which focuses on improving customer interactions with her clients’ products and services. Her company’s motto: “We help clients deliver outstanding customer service by combining the best of technology and people for world-class customer experiences.” Clients love this approach, and you will too. Enjoy.

Watch and listen to our conversation here

The key? Delight your customers.

Since 2014, Melissa Copeland and her team at Blue Orbit have worked with dozens of Fortune 500 organizations to deliver dramatic improvements in customer-centered experience. As a testament to her pragmatic approach, her clients often achieve benefits in excess of 10x their investment. Her goal is to craft solutions that empower employees, delight customers, and astonish owners.

The topic of culture change is one Melissa and I know a great deal about

As you’ll hear in our podcast, Melissa and I learn from each other as we share our ideas, experiences and know-how. You can read in my book, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights, how frustrating it is for companies, then and now, to address the core service imperative of their organization’s business. My hope is that you take away some great learning around how to step back and look at your own business with fresh eyes, and see where you might need to make some changes that will make all the diference.

If you’d like to reach out to Melissa, you can connect with her on LinkedIn, her website BlueOrbitConsulting.com, or email her at melissacopeland@blueorbitconsulting.com.

Want to know more about how to make your business’s customer experiences great ones? Start here:

• Podcast: Randi Busse—How To Turn Customer Experience Into A Competitive Advantage
• Podcast: Carmen Effron—Digitization of the Customer Journey
• Blog: 5 Ways to Find New Customers. They are all around you! 

Additional resources for you

Read the transcript of our podcast here

Andi Simon: Welcome to On the Brink With Andi Simon. I’m Andi Simon, I’m your host and your guide. My job is to get you off the brink and I go looking for people who have really interesting ideas to share with you to help you see, feel and think in new ways. That’s why today I have Melissa Copeland. And Melissa is here to talk about the customers of tomorrow, and how to serve them. But what’s really interesting is her own journey and what she sees going on in the market, and how she can help you see it through that fresh lens that I want you to have. Remember, time to get off the brink, and the times they are changing. So let’s soar together. Melissa, thank you for joining me today.

Melissa Copeland: Thanks for having me.

Andi Simon: Share with the listeners, who is Melissa and when and how did you get to where you are now? And why are you so interested in it? Please share your story.

Melissa Copeland: Sure, it’s a wandering path, but I think many people have those nowadays. It was less common when I started working, but I actually started as a documentary producer producing travel documentaries and traveling around the globe doing that which I love. It didn’t take long, about two years, for me to learn that it was really hard to afford my rent and lunch and a bus pass on the salary a documentary producer makes. So I went to business school, and business school wasn’t at all what I expected. It was much more of a structured education versus some of the intellectual inquiries that I was expecting to find. So if there is such a thing, it sounds like an oxymoron, but I was a bit of a countercultural business school student coming out of grad school.

I landed in a job in strategy at what was then Ameritech, now AT&T. I was sent to one of the wholesale divisions. So think of the really technical engineering, kind of in the more old-fashioned parts of the company. And here I was, this kid who had been a documentary producer. And my background was in history and writing. And I learned to speak engineering, and I learned to speak pension. I had more fun than I ever thought I would in the corporate world. So I was rotated in the seven years that I was there, through almost every functional area. I got a taste of strategy, sales, marketing, and wound up doing two types of international assignments. One was a startup based in Chicago. And the second was an assignment based in Brussels, Belgium for two years. And those were amazing.

A couple of the things that I really learned was that the language of business is really one of figuring out how to connect with people, and how to define problems, and then organize toward a solution, whether it’s through collaboration, whether it’s through directing, or self-directed teams, or any of those pieces. And so one of the things I didn’t expect that I’ve used my entire career since then, was during that time in Brussels, the techniques that you learned growing up in the United States to influence people with money, or sales incentives, or performance incentives, didn’t work the same way in a different culture and context. And that notion of what is my culture and context? And how do I get the results I need?

One of the things I learned was, in the US, if you wanted to get something done, you have a meeting, you divide up the tasks, and everybody goes in, does it. In the situation I was in, in Brussels, if you had a meeting, the way to get people engaged was to give everybody the opportunity to participate in the brainstorming, right? So no matter what it was, if you call it brainstorming, people were highly engaged, because everyone wanted a piece of the ideas and to really feel like, what would they be called, an influencer, but to really be part of the solution, and then folks would happily go and participate in terms of behavior change. So that has actually become a signature part of the consulting I do today.

Some from that role, I moved through a couple of different roles, but I stayed in that arena of really working on customer experience and employee experience, and helping folks move through changes that almost always benefit customer experience and customer loyalty. And that’s when I would say my love affair with customer service and contact center organization started.

Andi Simon: You formed your company Blue Orbit Consulting in 2014. Typically, I would start any interview like this and read your résumé. But I really prefer you to talk about this journey because it’s a setup for what’s happened since you set up your own company. So how did you come about? Your insights are extremely valuable today. We don’t motivate people by giving them more money that doesn’t do anything for the research work. You can give them more money, but it doesn’t mobilize them. It doesn’t motivate them. It’s not what makes them work. There’s something that took you from being inside to being a consultant having your own company. What was the catalyst?

Melissa Copeland: So I worked for many years for a consulting firm called The Northridge Group and helped build the firm, and was able to be the generalist moving across a lot of areas. The firm had tremendous success. And I have one of those hard learnings. After about 12 years there, my kids were eight and five, and I was continuing to travel almost every week. And no matter where I was, I was on the wrong continent for somebody. And we got to a point where more often than not, it was my kids, you know, or team members or clients. But it really became a challenge that it was my kids that were on the wrong side of that. So I left and I wasn’t sure what I was going to do. And that lasted, that break lasted about two months.

And we learned that I was terrible at carpooling, that I hated doing laundry, and got rid of all of our household help. But, former clients and colleagues started calling with projects and saying, hey, you’ve always been really good and helped me think through hard problems, will you come help me do this global technical support? Will you come take a look at this process problem in my organization? And that’s fundamentally how Blue Orbit was born.

So in 2014, I formed Blue Orbit. It was just me, and a couple of high school and college babysitters taking care of my kids, you know, before and after school. And as the firm grew, I really drove more focus around not just taking  every phone call, though anyone that calls and says, can you help me think through this hard problem, I really enjoy hard problems. So I’m happy to help think them through, but really, drove more focus around the pieces that I think are really important as businesses grow and move forward. And that is thinking through not just the customer journey, and some of the buzzwords around that, but also thinking through the service design for how you support that customer journey, and more recently, a lot of emphasis around employee engagement.

So how do you make it easier on the employees to deliver the service design and a fantastic customer experience. So little by little, as the firm grew, it started being engagements with me and then I started building more team-based engagements to be able to implement at large organizations. Then we land where we are today where the business supports both some startup companies that are just starting on that journey. It’s tons of fun when we have a blank slate, and you’re starting with the service design from the beginning. And then the large organizations where you might have hundreds or thousands of people that you’re trying to orchestrate. And then it’s really more that collaboration and building a funnel of ideas for how can we accomplish the goals we need to get to.

Andi Simon: You and I both understand the complexity of human interaction and conversations. And the question is, what do we say to whom in what way to get what done? And that’s not casual, and every culture is different. The culture is inside each one of these, small, large and otherwise, whether in Belgium or in the States, or whatever they are, and just do things differently. And your description of the Belgium folks who wanted some autonomy, mastery and purpose, which is what we’re talking about these days, was quite different than here where command and control tell you what to do, and tactical and practical, and not much gets done. So it’s an interesting time. So some of the insights that you’re pulling together, working over the last years, 2014 was a short long time ago. And between the pandemic and all the things going on with technology and customer transformation, there’s some key themes that you and I chatted a little bit about. Can you share them with our listeners or our audience? I do think they are going through them and they want to know, what do I do now? How do I do this? Some thoughts?

Melissa Copeland: Sure. I love how you you reference the autonomy and the mastery. One of the pieces that I first tried to size up is that culture and context and organization. I do feel compelled typically to look at data, because you always have people in your team or your organization that need to be data driven. And then we also have to look at some of the more qualitative aspects of what does it take to drive change, like, are we talking about a jello situation where you’re going in and going back out? Are we talking about a situation where people are highly receptive to doing things differently?

Some of the themes and particularly changes since 2020, a big one affecting a lot of organizations, whether we call it the great resignation or not, but the balance of power has shifted in terms of employees making choices about where they want to be. And so I challenge that many large organizations and in particular contact centers are dealing with the vacancy rate in roles that may be as high as 30%. So I have two clients right now that are down about 30% of people. And that puts enormous pressure on the organization and its ability to serve customers.

To that end, there are two big themes that I’ve been working with a lot of clients on. One is the theme around, what if the customer isn’t always right? And so how do you handle that? The first studies I’ve seen in years, probably as long as I’ve been working in customer experience, started coming out in the fall, illustrating a significant change in customer behavior, meaning, historically, customers really cared about that the agent I spoke with was friendly, were they pleasant, so we’ll call that friendliness. And then they care about, is my question answered, or has my problem been resolved?

The shift in the research over the past six months is that customers care much more about how fast something happens. So the friendliness isn’t at the top anymore, although I’d say it’s table stakes in most organizations, it’s really how quickly can you get to my question, or get me an answer. And can you do it in the media that I choose to interact with you in? So can you do it by voice? Can you do it by self service? Can you do it by chat? What are the different ways that I can connect with you? So that’s one huge arena.

The second that combines the two, getting answers quickly, and then struggling with kind of making the workplace attractive for employees and making their roles easier. And so I’ll call that the employee engagement or employee enablement tools. So in customer service, and contact center, lots and lots has been written and talked about around how artificial intelligence or AI is used in bots and self service so customers can do things themselves. The real frontier that I’ve been working with clients on for the past year, and I think it’ll become bigger in the next two years, is really around how do you use that power to enable human-to-human interaction? So how do I help an agent, right, be as quick and effective with a customer that wants to interact by voice? Or they have a question or a challenge that’s too complicated for the self service arena and so how do you deploy those tools on the market in a way that really makes the agent’s job easier, and makes employees feel like they can succeed in a difficult environment, or ultimately make that environment better? So I’d say those are the two big ones that I’ve been working with folks on that I think are the trends that are here to stay for at least 2022 to 2024.

Andi Simon: As a culture change expert, I’m curious, because I had one client who had a very bad help desk. And we actually suggested they go and make their folks remote before the pandemic. They were in a fabulous position when the pandemic hit. But the remote gave their staff a much better work environment and they lost the turnover. They speeded up the responses and they realized that having them come in and sit and wait and have to get things done in place was dysfunctional for this particular organization. They were an outsourced service provider, but what was important was that the people thought about it in terms of what mattered to them. Where did it matter that they work? What hours could they work, as opposed to a box that they had to fit into, and that autonomy and mastery. They needed something to motivate them to mobilize them to want to do this as opposed to being forced into it. And so that became interesting.

My second point is that both consumers and employees are people. If you think of them as the same as very important people, then your customer and your staff are connected. It’s not separate. And so now, if we step back and look at them as one ecosystem, it’s no longer what the customer wants, it’s how the employee and my customer can solve a problem together, collaboratively, as opposed to I’ll do it in my time. You can’t. It’s really less adversarial or competitive and much more collegial. Are you seeing some of the same things?

Melissa Copeland: Absolutely. So I think one of the really interesting takeaways is, remote work is something that has been talked about for a long time. And then companies that explored it particularly for contact centers or tasted different pieces of it in very targeted areas. The pandemic forced folks to do it on a mass scale. And what many organizations found was no productivity was lost. What they had to do, though, was figure out how to recreate some of the cultural aspects that existed when you brought people together.

It’s a great example you give around the IT help desk because one of the bigger satisfiers for folks that work in centers are being able to have hours that they can manage more effectively. And so for a center, the benefit is that they can have more people working part time or split schedules or different approaches. And for employees, you’ve removed the transit piece. So they’re more open to working. So I think those are often terrific solutions.

And it’s interesting to see organizations work through what’s here to stay because when folks flipped the switch on March 2020, right, all the old processes went with them. There’s a really interesting opportunity for organizations that are willing to take a hard look. It’s one, I’ll be honest, I thought it was going to happen in 2021 and it didn’t happen that much around getting rid of some of the low value processes and activities. But I’m optimistic that this year will be the year that many organizations step back and say, we really need to do it that way, or can I make it easier on everybody. And then I don’t think I can say it better than you did around the collegial approach to problem solving.

So it’s typically a terrific scenario, when you can have an agent empowered to conduct a conversation the way they want to. And that requires a couple of things. It requires organizational trust, and having the metrics or ways to measure the effectiveness of a conversation that go beyond process compliance. So a traditional way of doing it was, here’s the process and you’re measured on how you follow it that doesn’t drive the autonomy and mastery of that process. But it doesn’t drive mastery of the customer interaction. And so seeing more organizations move toward some of the enablement tools that in order to allow agents to have the conversation that they want and need to have with a customer, you have to solve the problem.

It’s very different to achieve the same goal. So an example of some of the cooler new tools that are coming into play is some of the same artificial intelligence technology that makes self service bots work can be deployed to help agents. So the bot can be sort of listening, if you will, to the conversation and picking up key words and tone from the customer. And then prompt the agent. Here are some documents that might help you. Here are the links and the reference material so that the agent can focus on the conversation, not zooming through multiple apps, or wikis or web links, to find the information they need. And that goes toward your point around, you can really drive a collegial situation more than you can an adversarial one. You give the employee a great shot at success versus the employee feels like they’re on the front line.

Andi Simon: You raised a very important question. How do we evaluate, assess and appraise our employees? There was a great article that talked about how I never see them. I used to evaluate them based upon how I felt about it. I mean, some of the reaach proves that’s how you evaluated them. It wasn’t on their performance, per se, it was how you liked them or not. And so now they’re having a difficult time knowing what to evaluate. It’s not just compliance with a rigorous help desk script, or how fast you answer the phone, or how fast you solve the problem, or how the customer evaluated you. This is all experiential, and it’s richer in many ways and more challenging to evaluate another.

I’m not quite sure how to tap into the customer satisfaction. What does that mean? l’ll give you one little speed thing. One of the CEO groups I was doing my research with, a gentleman in fertility centers said, it used to be that we could set up an appointment with someone interested in our methodology with a doctor, you know, over time. Now they want it immediately. And if I can’t get the doctor to contact them immediately, however fast that is, they go somewhere else. And I say welcome to a world of instantaneous gratification. You know, they’re ready right now. I want that conversation. And he said, I don’t know how to put a young person in charge of it now, so they can appreciate what that young person is looking for because I can’t figure it out at all. So now, my question for you is, as you’re looking at this, how do we appraise the success of our customer service system? And what should people think about as they are evaluating their evaluation system?

Melissa Copeland: Those are great questions. So the first one is relatively straightforward. So when looking at the success of a customer service organization, or the customer experience, many of those metrics don’t change, what changes is how you use them. So in terms of data, one of the fun things about contact centers is they usually have an overwhelming amount of data. So you can see how quickly our customers connect to the answer that they want. And you should be able to calculate how many times you’re getting the customer the right answer the first time. If you can’t calculate it, that’s a great subject for us to talk about and brainstorm how to get to it. But you should know how often the agent is able to satisfy the customer. And when they can’t, you need to divide into two groups, the things that are agent specific, and the things that are systemic.

So right, no agent could have solved it, because of other other reasons. So there’s an overall framework for looking at how quickly am I serving the customer? And then, was the customer satisfied? And I would argue, most importantly, was their issue solved on the first call? That does push by the wayside some old metrics. So an older metric would be looking at how long it took. I, Melissa, typically, I don’t care how long it took, if you did it right the first time and the customers were happy, we’ve avoided future calls and interactions that become more expensive and more time consuming. And we’ve made that customer of tomorrow happy because they have patience for very little and certainly not for mistakes or ongoing back and forth about the same issue when it comes to appraising the individual.

That also is something that I love, your example that is shifting, right. So it was always something where, when people were in the same place, you would see someone at their desk, you would see if they were working, and that vision that I can see you isn’t there anymore. So that does drive more dependence on metrics. And it does drive more conversation with the individual. So one of the things that I’m seeing is more and more trends toward talking to people about how they feel. Yes, I’ve never had so many conversations about feelings. You know, I’m working with one client right now and we’re doing a large transformation program. And a lot of our conversations are, do you feel competent? Do you feel empowered? What are the things you’re struggling with? And how can I help you? So it is a much more honest move toward what I would call true coaching and development and away from some of the performance management.

And some of those organizations wind up being my favorite clients because they’re really interested in elevating the business’s performance and the people providing it. That doesn’t mean you don’t have to deal with some specific performance situations. But it’s a very different philosophy around, let’s look at your metrics, and let’s talk about how to make them better. As opposed to, here’s the threshold and that’s where you have to be.

Andi Simon: I love what you’re talking about. A great transformation, isn’t it? Because slowly we are recognizing what can mobilize people. We’re learning so much from the neurosciences, the cognitive sciences, everything from the curiosity quotient, and the emotional intelligence and all the ways the amygdala and the brain works and what really gets people excited about what they’re doing. You couldn’t have done this without the pandemic, generating this great transformation. And now we’re changing how we’re managing people, asking them to feel the way we’d like them to. People didn’t know what those words meant before but now we decide with the heart and the eyes, and how it feels. How does it look? And then intellectually, we can look at the numbers that come out of that. It’s interesting. One of the podcasts I did with Lisa McLeod was about purpose. And Joey Ryan’s work on purpose, purpose-driven companies. If you have purpose with mastery and autonomy, you mobilize people to do far better, and any other kind of ratcheting down to data-driven metrics, the data comes from being happy. And that’s not so terrible.

Melissa Copeland: I would add, though, that for many organizations, it’s a really difficult shift. People have been rewarded for a long time for complying with the process, doing the right things, and being where you’re supposed to be. There’s enormous opportunity in this transformation. But there’s also a lot of fear and support required. And so, I think the other interesting trend is, many organizations, whether you call it change management or organizational change management, or you just call it transformation, or I have been known to call it whatever I need to call it to get it done so we can call it process work. But really thinking through, how do you help people through that difference? Because particularly tenured employees will have a lot of trouble making the move.

Andi Simon: I want to add something and then we’ll wrap, because the points you’re raising for our audience are very important. We live the story in our mind. The way humans survive is that we create a story in our mind and that becomes our reality. And Melissa says something very important because the tenured employees have a story that registered well for them in the past. They really knew how to do that and keep their jobs and keep the boss satisfied. They played it really well, it was like a role on stage, where they knew how to play Macbeth really, really well. And now they have to play Hamlet. And they don’t have a clue what the script is or how to perform. And it isn’t that they resist the change, they don’t really know how to. If you put them on stage and told them to play a new role, they don’t know what to say or how to say it. They don’t know how to behave with each other. They don’t know what to expect. It’s very scary legitimately.

And the brain hates to change, it’s got a lot of cortisol floating around up there. So as you’re looking at your employees, don’t get angry. Figure out how to hire Melissa to come help you invent new ways to show them how to come to the new. We used to say, if you want to change, have a crisis or create one, because if not, your brain doesn’t pay attention. I never expected this kind of crisis. I don’t really want another one. But don’t waste it. It’s a great time. Listen, this is such fun, tell the listeners two or three things that you don’t want them to forget.

Melissa Copeland: Number one, whether or not the customer is right, finding that collegiality and collaboration is critical to customer experience moving forward. So figuring out your service design and how to deliver it is absolutely paramount. The second point would be employee enablement, and letting employees lead but giving them the tools to do so. So freeing them from some of the process compliance of prior iterations is a terrific tool to do it. And you know, I’m happy to brainstorm or chat with anyone about those.

And then one more item that your last comment made me think of is, I myself had one of these epiphanies in November. My daughter and I went from Chicago to New York, and we saw Six on Broadway. And so for those that aren’t familiar with Six, it’s about the wives of Henry the Eighth, many of whom wound up decapitated or died of illness, had all these extraordinary adventures. And we brought my aunt with us. So we covered multiple generations, and my aunt knew the history better than anyone and loved the show for the history. My daughter loved the pop music, and the takeoffs of Beyoncé and Adele, and the music that was there, and I got about half of each, and still loved it. And so I think of that as inspiration for listeners. You don’t have to be at any one extreme, but you do have to find a way to find some of the fun in it. And if you can find the fun, then you can move the culture forward.

Andi Simon: That’s a beautiful metaphor for everything you do for life, in fact, because it is the same experience seen through very different eyes. The lenses were completely different. The story was exactly the same. You all sat in the same seats and watched it and had very different experiences. How better can we wrap up our conversation today? If they’d like to reach you, what’s the best way to get ahold of you?

Melissa Copeland: I’m easy to find on LinkedIn, you can find me, Melissa Copeland, or my firm Blue Orbit Consulting, or by the website, theblueorbitconsulting.com.

Andi Simon: That’s terrific. And we’ll put all of this together on our blog. This is such fun, you and I could talk a great deal about the dilemmas and the opportunities. Remember, don’t waste a crisis and you’re coming out of a very unusual one, but this is a time that has pushed us to transformation, great transformations. Some of us love it and others can’t figure out how to get back to what was, but you can’t. I doubt we’ll ever see what was, we don’t even remember what it was. So it’s hard to go back. But instead, it’s a time to create your future. So don’t waste it. It’s a great time to do it. And this has been terrific today.

For all of you who come, thank you for joining us. You come from around the globe. I mean, we’re ranked in the top 5% of global podcasts. I’m honored. You send me great people to interview. info@andisimon.com is where you can get to me. But the most important thing today that I’d like to share is, buy my books, On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights and Rethink: Smashing The Myths of Women in Business. You can get them on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or wherever you like to buy books. But the point of the books is to help you see, feel and think in new ways. And this podcast is here to do the same. My job is to help you get off the brink and soar. And sometimes you need a little catalyst, a little push, a little nudge because as we know, we get attached to that shiny object and we don’t want to let go but the times are changing. So enjoy the trip. Stay well and enjoy your day. Have a good one. Bye now.

 

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