The 10 Things You Can Do to Be More Creative/Innovative

Join us in this episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the extraordinary journey of Callie Goodwin, the mastermind behind a thriving greeting card company born out of the challenges of the pandemic. From a humble start during quarantine to becoming a household name on TikTok, Callie shares her inspirational story of turning isolation into innovation. With her background in education and social work, Callie's path to entrepreneurship was unexpected but undeniably rewarding. Tune in to discover how she navigated obstacles like funding shortages and leveraged the power of social media to skyrocket her business. From viral TikTok campaigns to unexpected partnerships, Callie's journey is a testament to the resilience and creativity of small business owners everywhere. Join us as we explore the highs, the lows, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration, practical tips, and a glimpse into the limitless possibilities of entrepreneurship in the digital age.

Guest: Callie Goodwin. Founder Sparks of Joy  

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez 

 

Transcript:

MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgil. This podcast is brought to you in partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And today we have a very special guest…you may know her from Tik Tok and some Tik Tok ads. It's Callie Goodwin, who is the founder of the greeting card company, Sparks of Joy. Callie, welcome to our show.

CALLIE: Hi! Thank you so much for having me. 

MARY: Callie, I want to start with… Do you remember the first time that we met in person? Because we’ve known each other for a while though.

CALLIE: It's been quite a while. I was helping film in Columbia. I don't know what year it was. But it's been quite a while.

MARY: It's been at least seven years probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was still in news. I was still a news anchor. And Callie had this drone and I was you know me, I'm a gadget girl. And so I went up to her and I was like, oh, show me what you're doing. Like we were just talking off air that we were flying drones and we didn't really know any of the rules back then. So we just flew them all over the place.

CALLIE: I look back now and I'm like, Ooh, yeah, we were definitely breaking some rules then. But honestly before… it was still the wild wild west of drones. 

MARY: You were on the cutting edge then and now you're on the cutting edge again. That's your life. 

CALLIE: I like to live on the edge.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about Sparks of Joy for people who might not have seen your TikTok ad because your TikTok ad… I say TikTok ad guys but it is all over TV right now.

CALLIE: Yeah, so Sparks of Joy started as a pre stamped greeting card company in the middle of the pandemic. I bought a house the summer 2020, moved in, was exposed to COVID had to quarantine and during that two weeks was going stir crazy. Neighbor dropped off a handwritten card and some brownies. And that handwritten card like really kind of sparked this idea of like, I want to send out cards out with my new address like I finally have an address on my own. But I realized that I didn't know what boxes my cards were in. And I didn't have any stamps. And so I used that two week quarantine period to start a business. I design all my own cards. And then we pre stamp the cards so that our customers don't have to or don't have to try to track down stamps at the post office so it has grown I started my TikTok right as I started my business and now it's grown into this massive account and this like really cool opportunity to partner with TikTok on these things. And I never would have dreamed that this loneliness of my brand new house would have turned into this three years later.

MARY: Right and so the…let's back up a little bit and talk about your education because everything that you've done in your education so far is geared toward education. For kids right?

CALLIE: So I thought I wanted to be a preschool teacher growing up. I worked in preschool for seven years. So I got my Associates in early childhood. And then I transferred to Columbia College and got my Bachelor's in social work, essentially social work, and decided that's not what I wanted to do. I began working at Columbia College doing social media and got my master's in higher ed administration. And now here I am, I work for a social media app for high schoolers going into college. So still kind of like higher ed adjacent, but also run a greeting card company.

MARY: Right. So you're doing social media and you're a master at social media by the way. You're doing social media for them and you're running this company that has just literally blown up. How did it come to be that Tik Tok contacted you and said we want you to be in this for us.

CALLIE: So I retold the story recently or was talking with the people that this all started with. It started in the spring of 2022. So we actually got a very kind of vague sketch email from TikTok that was like, Hey, we're working on a new upcoming project. If you think you might be interested in being part of this vague project that we can't tell you information about, like fill out this Google form. And I clicked it and like it really was just a basic Google form asking about my business and I'm like, well, nothing I'm sharing here is like proprietary information that they can’t like find on my website. So I filled it out. And three months later, they got the green light from legal to start this. It was called TikTok Impact and showing the impact of TikTok on small businesses. So they got the green light to start it and so it started as a website with about I think 10 to 20 of us, representing 10 states. And that rolled into the first campaign with TikTok, which was South Carolina based…a couple of billboards and newspaper ads and stuff that ran in October of 2022. And then thought that was it… thought the campaign was done. And then I was contacted in July of 2023 by a production company, they're like, Hey, we think you're a good fit for a project again, super vague. We can't tell you the client. Like are you interested? And I'm like, sure we've done this before and it's been great. So sure, let's try it again. Turns out the client was TikTok again. But it was a much bigger scale. So it involved filming this commercial, they came to my house. I think there was like 13 or 14 different production team members that came out and we filmed all day long. And then this is part of a national campaign so it's rolled out. I think the commercial is rolled out to South Carolina at this moment, but will continue to roll out nationwide. And then it also included billboards in places like… Vegas is covered. I think there's like 13 or 14 in Vegas. Times Square, the New York subway system… all around South Carolina and it's been really cool to watch that grow.

MARY: Yeah I love on your Instagram when you put your…. you took a picture of yourself in front of your billboard in Times Square.

CALLIE: Yeah, we went up for my birthday in December and I was like, told my parents we have to go to Times Square to see this. It's just surreal to see yourself in public on these advertisements. So I just flew to Washington DC. And I saw myself in the airport like on the screens and I was like, Oh wait, that's me like, and nobody else around me like notices in this moment that I'm standing here like in all of this ad and everyone else is just going about their busy day, but I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm on this giant screen like that's crazy. 

MARY: Yeah,I know that feeling. The first time I saw we had a billboard for one of my stations that I worked at when I was broadcasting. And the first time I saw one of our billboards I had to like stop. I've literally pulled up on the side of the highway. Like oh my god, that's huge.

CALLIE: The first night that somebody texted me that the billboards were live in Columbia, because I didn't know that that was part of this campaign. So somebody's like, I just saw a billboard of you and I'm like, What are you talking about? They're like, Oh, yeah, it’s over onForest drive and it actually was not on Forest drive. It was somewhere completely different. They got the location wrong. So I'm driving around Columbia, like just looking for myself. And yeah, it's probably crazy, but it’s a lot of fun.

MARY: I love that. But I do want to point out to our listeners that this is a prime example… I do a workshop sometimes for women entrepreneurs who… how to get your story told. Right? And so let me ask this question… was anything… did you have to pay for any of this? 

CALLIE: Not a penny. 

MARY: Exactly. So saying yes to things will get you free advertisement. Right? Now, of course, there are a lot of scams out there. So do be careful about that kind of stuff and kind of use the techniques that Callie used to say, Okay, this is just business stuff that I'm giving them, right? 

CALLIE: Absolutely. 

MARY: And then you can always do your background checks, make, make the phone calls, send the emails, you know, do whatever you need to do to check the background of things like this. But let's talk about how this has blown up your business.

CALLIE: Yes, so, through the first campaign, we ended up getting verified on Tik Tok and being able to reach a large amount of people and through that campaign, rolled into the opportunity to… so that started with the vague sketchy email to begin with, which then turned into the first South Carolina campaign, which then rolled into the opportunity to speak at South by Southwest last March on a panel with TikTok which led to go into DC with TikTok, which led to like this campaign, and so saying yes, at all these points, continues to just open doors. But yes, I think I missed the rest of your question there.

MARY: I think you got it. Saying yes to one thing opened all those other doors. South by Southwest is huge, you know, being able to go to DC all off this one, you know, thing that you said yes to was really the catalyst for all of that, right. So, let's talk about the art just a little bit because you were an art major, right. And how does that play into part of your personality, part of who you are and into the whole thing?

CALLIE: Yeah, it's been cool to be able to take some of these designs that you don't see represented in greeting cards every day. And I know again, like I always tell people like you, if I can succeed on Tik Tok, you can succeed on TikTok. I am selling greeting cards in a digital world. Like people don't send mail, people love to receive mail, but don't take the time to send mail. And so the fact that we've sold over 50,000 cards in the last three years is proof that like people want that connection, they want human connection. And I think a big thing is like people like to purchase from me because I show myself on my account a lot. I also share not just business stuff, but I I share a little bit of the personal side. We talk about mental health. We talked about behind the scenes of packing orders and so people connect on a personal level there and feel like they're supporting a person in a business. And that's something they could get behind. 

MARY: Yeah, I think you bring up another good point with that because part of marketing yourself on social media and you just gave us a tactic right there. Right. So it's not all about the business. It's not all about buy buy buy this right. It's about sharing and connecting on a personal level.

CALLIE: Absolutely. So originally I had gone back and privated all at the beginning of my TikTok because they were so cringy I couldn't even like stand to see them on my account. They were… it was bad. I was just watching the waters…. and I had to go back and unhide them because the reality is like I didn't want to minimize, like how rough the start was, like sure we're at 113,000 followers now. But we weren't there at the beginning. And we started small. We started cringy it took a while to find our stride. And when I did, it really changed when I started getting on camera and being myself and realizing like, I am not going to be equal to the people that have millions of followers like I don't have the pretty perfect setup. This is me in my garage selling greeting cards and so once I found what was unique to me and just like the fact that like this is who I am and embracing that, like that's when we saw growth because I got comfortable with who I was instead of just trying to be everybody else. 

MARY: Yeah. Wow. What you just said is so powerful. Right there. I think that being comfortable with who you are and finding the power within yourself can transcend any area of our life. But at the same time holds us back from all areas as well. Right? If we don't have those feelings. Even in my own daily life I catch myself ... .that self talk, you know that we have that Oh, I shouldn't do this because I don't have this or I don't do this right. And, boy, I need to take your advice today. And I know somebody listening does too. Wow. 

CALLIE: I often have to remind myself that especially as my account grows larger, I find myself hesitating before I post up I'm like Ooh, is this worth the post? Like is this gonna fit things and I realize I'm like, that's not how we got here. And that's not how we're going to continue to grow if I'm if I stray away from where like what our tried and true like method is so yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfectly filmed. My hair always looks like a disaster. It's always a frizzy mess. Usually whatever t shirt I wear for the day, or I slept in and just showing whatever I'm working on really connects with people,

MARY: Yeah whatever part of your life that it is for that moment. Yeah, yeah. You also brought up the fact that you started with… You know, I mean, everybody has to start somewhere. Right? And so with the followers on Tiktok, you started with small followers with a small number of followers and then that grew over time, the more that you became your authentic self and I think so many of us, me included, tend to not be as consistent as perhaps we should be to help really gain those followers and take advantage of what Tik Tok and other social media outlets have to offer for free advertising for us. 

CALLIE: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool for me to connect with the people that used to join my live streams like I remember when I hit 1000 followers and I got to finally live stream for TikTok specifically and there was two people that would join my live streams all the time. I think we ever we maxed out at like five people viewing for the first couple months and now whenever I go live, there's sometimes there can be a couple 100 people in there, but sometimes I see those, those original two or three and it's always such a special moment when I see it pop up, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're you're still here. Like you're still like, I don't care about the rest of them like you followed me through either there at the beginning. Like it's really it's really important for me to connect with my followers in general in the comments, but then also to like, remember people and remember that, like I wouldn't be here today without the support of the people along the way.

MARY: Yeah, that's an excellent point too. And that connection, you know, when those live streams, you're creating community.

CALLIE: Yeah. 100% we have whole like, like conversations in the comments, or I think at one point, I was taking a new medication that had to be taken at night and I'm a nighttime like live streamer. Like that's usually when I'm going live and I had one follower who is now a really good friend of mine we've never met but she would remind me every night and she's like remember to take your meds and I was like thanks because I forgot and they're ADHD meds so like it's seem funnier that like usually it was the thing… the thing you need to take to remember to do the things consistently. And so she was my consistent reminder during live streams and he's like, Did you take your medicine and like, Oh, thank you so much. Let me take one right now. And so yeah, we got through that entire, like, season of that specific medication because she reminded me every night because I wouldn't remember.

MARY: I love that. So what inspires you?

CALLIE: That's a great question. I am fueled by trying new things, and seeing what can happen. So I also love a good challenge. So recently, back in August or July…I had an opportunity to work with a laser company called… and they sent me a laser and I was to make content with it. And so I wanted to do a 90 day payoff challenge. Because I thought, You know what, that'd be a cool like source of content…have all these projects. I need to pay this laser off anyway, like let's, let's do it in 90 days. And so I made a list of all these projects that I wanted to do and started working my way through it. And on day 15, our Stanley topper file went viral and we sold $30,000 worth in nine days on TikTok shop. And so those videos collectively have over 10 million views. My house is a train wreck for weeks as I had about 14,15 people rotating in and out to help me fulfill these orders. But I'm constantly like inspired by trying new things, seeing what will take off and then watching the power of social media work. We've had multiple cards go viral, we've had multiple products and so it's always fun to kind of chase that like new level of success but also like what is going to connect most with our followers.

MARY: Right. Do you sell the cards as singles or in groups? How does that work?

CALLIE: So we have cards that are available as singles. We have postcards. We have flat cards that go with an envelope and a stamp. And then we have like little baby like mini cards. And you can buy them individually but you can also bundle them to get them at a cheaper price. 

MARY: Okay, excellent. So what has been the most rewarding about this process for you… this experience?

 CALLIE: I think the experiences and being able to meet people and connect with people. I think social media allows you to really connect with people that are outside of your circle. And so I have been able to make some really incredible friends through Tiktok through social media in general. I actually went to VidCon out in California last year with four creator friends that I had, or three creator friends that I'd never met in person. We all rented Airbnb and went out together and had an absolute blast. But we've just built all these relationships, friendships, partnerships with different people. And that is… it's just so fulfilling.

MARY: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think you know for all of its faults, social media does that really well. 

CALLIE: Yes. 

MARY: Is there any obstacles that you had to overcome that you other than, you know, the self talk which we've talked about, you know, that you've had to overcome in the process?

CALLIE: I think our biggest challenge is always like money, and funding. I started this with 20 bucks in the bank account and have used the profits from whatever I sell to reinvest back into my business and so every time we go viral or we have these like big influx, it's like okay, now how do we, how do we upgrade our stuff? Instead of outsourcing, we now print all of our stuff in house. We've purchased the equipment, you know, we've purchased the lasers, we've purchased the shelving like never, never knew shelving was so expensive. But to house all of the cards that we offer, we have about 150 designs. And to also to hire an assistant that helps with fulfilling card orders. That was important but yeah, I think funding especially when not going like traditional, like loan routes, because that wasn't something I wanted to do. It's also sometimes hard to find small business loans when you're brand new, but not like when I still consider myself like a pretty like a baby business compared to like a retail location or something like that. Everything operates out of my dining room and so sometimes that funding is usually like one of the hardest parts. 

MARY: Yeah, that's…it is hard, especially for a company that's starting up because for banks to lend you money of course they want to see three years of growth right?

CALLIE: Yeah. 

MARY: And you're like, Well, how do I get the growth but don't have the money? CALLIE: Exactly, exactly. 

MARY: So you have to be creative in the ways that you find. So then when you have this big orders like that $30,000 order right… or 30,000 card order, then you just hire part time people to come in and help you get them out quickly.

CALLIE: Yes, my dad was here everyday helping. My assistant was here and then I literally put the call out on Facebook. I was like who has extra time during the day… night. We would have people that would come in at 7:30 in the morning. A friend of mine… I gave her my house code and was like here's the key to the door. She would come in and start working. I would sleep in a little bit. But I would also work until 2,3,4 in the morning with the late night crew and so we made it through like you find your community, find your local people that will jump into help but yeah, August was chaotic.

MARY: And that but you know what, that's a great problem to have.

CALLIE: Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah.

MARY: So looking forward, what are some of the goals that you have for the card company? I mean, do you I mean, I guess you want to stay in your garage forever.

CALLIE: Yeah, I don't know. 

MARY: Although that might be kind of nice. 

CALLIE: But yeah, it's well, it's nice, not having like an overhead of a shop or warehouse or anything. Our garage is converted so it's like a two car garage size but it's a nice like workspace. For me I think I've specifically this past year I've been operating essentially two businesses under one name. So we have the greeting card side and then we have the laser engrave side and low backs are how the laser engraving came in. It's because no one gets rich off of $2 greeting cards. Takes a lot of greeting cards to build up by capital. And so we introduced laser engraving personalized items to help get our cost per order up. But they still kind of feel like two separate verticals. So the goal this year is to invest in a UV printer, which will allow me to take the full color designs of my cards and print them onto cups, wood, stuff that I can use in my laser engraver and be able to finally merge those two businesses and have them like mesh a little bit more cohesively. So that's a large investment of a pretty expensive piece of equipment. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm excited to figure out how we obtain that but that is the ultimate goal for 2024.

MARY: How do you proceed TikTok helping you in the coming year?

CALLIE: Well, this specific campaign is not a short, the ads may stop running soon, like the print and digital ones. But this is… it's going to be a long term advertisement for them and for me, and so I know that's going to help with business. I already get orders all the time. That's like hey, we saw we saw your ad like we're now ordering. But TikTok the platform itself is… 98% of my customers find me through TikTok so that's where we put all of our time and effort. We have Instagram, Facebook, we don't put as much stock time investment into those platforms because when you find something that works like I'm investing my time there on TikTok so continuing to create content that engages people that I think going back and doing a lot more content about the how… how we get to places the start of a card, how we design it, how it’s printed, cutted, showing the behind the scenes of that is something like my followers have asked to see more of this year. They also asked to see more of the laser and so we're gonna be featuring more of that

This year as well. 

MARY: Yeah, that's fun to see. That's fun to watch.

CALLIE: I realized like as much as I see it working and it may like lose its sparkle a little bit when you're running it consistently. My followers don't get to see the chaos of watching it run and so I've got to remember that’s not…most people don't have multiple lasers in their house. So I need to share that more with people. It's very common for me, but it's not common for 99% of the population.

MARY: Right, right. You know, I want to circle back around to DC because we I know there were these huge hearings about TikTok and potentially regulation or, or even not allowing Tiktok to operate in the United States. And I know that if that were to happen, it would hurt small business owners and I think you would be one of those people.

CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back from DC. I was up there talking about credit card swipe fees. Additionally talking about the impact of Tiktok on my business and kind of my stance on things is a lot of the questions right now are about internet security, data privacy, and we're having these conversations. Tik Tok gets called out a lot because the parent company has owners that are also Chinese based. And so that causes a lot of fear. But the reality is that data security and privacy is a much bigger topic that is not limited to TikTok. We have those issues with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever, all of them have the same issues. And so when I'm talking with our representatives, talking about let's have the broader conversation, let's not single out one because the reality is if we can pass legislation that protects users and people. It's just eliminating one, it's not going to fix the problem. We need to do more to protect everybody. And so I'm hoping that some of those conversations we’ll realize that that's the bigger issue. But yeah, it's a risk, putting kind of like a lot of my all my eggs in that one basket but right now, like it is the most accessible platform for small businesses the way that the algorithm works, the way that the platform shows stuff that you're interested in. And so it's easier for small businesses to have a fighting chance of being seen versus Instagram and Facebook that really value the amount of followers you have over the interest of what you have. So it'll be interesting to see. But I continue to use our voice to talk to our representatives because I met with our representatives office this week, and Lindsey Graham and talked to their office and showed my stats and they're like we've never heard a small business story from Tik Tok. And I'm a constituent and so going and showing the staff with like, 98% of my customers find me here like here's… our audience is actually older, like it isn't young kids and so kind of changing the narrative by giving the other side of the truth there.

MARY: And thank you for doing that. And I think all small businesses should thank you for doing that. Because, you know, the good thing about social media, no matter what platform it is, is it's free advertising for you. Every time you're on there, right? You are the face of your company. You are the brand so to speak, right? And that's some advertising that you don't have to pay for. Absolutely, it's free. And if you're not using social media, then you should start using social media.

CALLIE: Yeah, we don't pay. I think I ran one ad last year. And it was a very targeted ad because it was for a very targeted product for our cutting boards, like it was a targeted age group for that specific product. But yeah, we've done so much. I mean, I think we did probably close to $50,000 in sales last year without a single like dollar of advertisement.

MARY:

That's great for the bottom line. 

CALLIE: Yeah.

MARY: Let's give some advice to people because we just talked a little bit about the age, you know, and that's a misnomer that ultimately kids on Tik Tok, right, because it's not. It's only old people on Facebook because it's not, right. And so let's talk about if you can give some advice to some of our listeners about maybe some tips and tricks of the trade so to speak of getting yourself noticed. CALLIE: Um, specific per platform or just in general?

MARY: In general, or if you want to go specific, specific, that's fine.

CALLIE: I think often that we target certain platforms for certain ages. And that's not necessarily true. Facebook's become older generation. Snapchat is just like the high schoolers TikTok is like Gen X, millennials, whatever. But that's not true. Some of my favorite Tik Tokers are actually like quite old. We have… like I follow a Grandma, that's one of my favorite people on the app. I think there is a spot for everybody on all platforms. All say that the demographics from my Tik Tok account and actually have this beside me. So I'm not just pulling out numbers. 71% of my followers are between 25 and 54 and 87% are women. 96 or 96% of them are in the US. So I do have international followers. I've shipped a lot of international orders from that percentage that is internationally, but I think that not specifically targeting a certain age… I think making your stuff broader is the best way to appeal to people on all platforms. My dad loves TikTok. Does he create content on there? Absolutely not. But he does scroll it nightly for hours because he sends me them all the time. So it's, it's really cool for him or for me to see certain brands like really embrace the fact that like all ages are on TikTok and be able to target across all generations with their content and like it's resulted in…he has purchased us specifically because he saw it on TikTok. 

MARY: Yeah. I do that all the time.

CALLIE: We joke about like Facebook ads are like super targeted because of your like interests or whatever. You think and it appears but there are still younger people on Facebook. They may not be posting but they see stuff. Same with Instagram, I think a lot of people watch but don't necessarily post and so just because you may not be seeing their content on there doesn't mean they're not there. 

MARY: That's a great, great point. Because there are 1000s, millions of people probably on Tik Tok that just kind of scroll and watch and whatever, the videos and they're seeing those ads, right? I don't I mean, you know, as I said, I'm a gadget girl, which is how we met each other. And because I went up to Callie and I was like, hey, show me what you're doing here man. And I am forever ordering gadgets off TikTok shop. 

CALLIE: The amount of stuff that I need to do an entire video of stuff that I've ordered because I saw it on TikTok and there is a hashtag TikTok made me buy it but I have peach mango toothpaste because I found it on TikTok. Like I hate the taste of normal mint toothpaste. And I got served an ad for flavored toothpaste and was like done… immediately purchased. And that was like such like such a good decision that like makes an impact on my daily life. But like a random thing.

MARY: I will tell you I have not gotten anything that's cheap or bad or anything from any of my Tik Tok purchases. 

CALLIE: Yeah, most of them are pretty solid. I will say as a TikTok shop seller, the regulations that they have…they're pretty strict. And so we're constantly fighting the product authorization stuff on like getting our stuff posted because sometimes it says like I think this is… like your price is too low, we think it's a scam and I was like it's a mini greeting card like I can't charge more than $1.50 for this like sometimes it'll flag us like we think this is a scam it's because you're offering it for $1. So…but yeah, I think the last probably eight months has been really heavy on TikTok shop as they released that and try to grow it. I think that now that Black Friday and Christmas and stuff are over I think it'll chill out a little bit. But it is interesting to watch how the different platforms are changing their algorithms and changing what they're promoting. I recently got a message from Tiktok saying that they're wanting you to post some vertical or some horizontal videos and longer videos and you've got YouTube over there promoting shorts and then you've got Instagram that wants to be everybody… do all the things. So it's important to pay attention to all of the platforms and see what they're favoring. And if you can ride the wave as soon as they announce something…I will say that's like one of the things we found the most successful is when a when a platform releases a new trend or not necessarily like a trendy type of thing, but like TikTok specifically said recently that they're favoring longer videos and they're favoring the, the horizontal so they're fighting YouTube essentially. I have friends that are posting that and going viral for those longer videos and it's counterintuitive what we think Tik Tok should be but if TikTok is saying, Hey, we're favoring this. It's pretty dumb to not ride that wave. Even if we don't agree with it because like, I don't have it like I don't TikTok to be YouTube… I want the short fun videos but like as a creator, as a marketer, you got to sometimes you got to suck it up.

MARY: Right. Callie, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation.

CALLIE: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about this kind of stuff.

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go though, tell our listeners and we are on YouTube too. So tell our listeners and our viewers how they can get in touch with you and how they can order from you and that kind of thing.

CALLIE: You can find my stuff at sparksofjoyco.com. Our handle is sparks of joy co on all platforms. And then we have our website.

MARY: Perfect. Again, Callie thank you so much. We can sit here and learn from you so so much. So everybody, you know she gave us some really good nuggets and even some Easter eggs in there, to use a Taylor Swift term, that you can pull out when you listen to this podcast and kind of put to use in your own life and your own building of your business. So Callie, thank you so much again.

CALLIE: Thank you. 

MARY: Take care.

 

 

 

 

 Join us on the latest episode of the Class E Podcast, where we had an engaging conversation with Candace Morris, the founder of The Launch Ready Method. Candace takes us on a journey through her diverse experiences in social work, education, and entrepreneurship. From her days as a student life coordinator at a charter high school to pioneering an internship program, Candace reveals the gaps she identified in preparing young people for the professional world. Learn about the birth of The Launch Ready Method, an online curriculum aimed at guiding 16 to 24-year-olds through self-discovery, professional skills development, and practical application. Candace shares the challenges she faced, the lessons learned in Greenville Starts, and the importance of pacing oneself in the entrepreneurial marathon. Don't miss this insightful episode that delves into the core of preparing youth for success in the real world.

Guest: Candace Morris - The Launch Ready Method

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer/Editor: Isabella Martinez

Dive into the latest episode of the Class E Podcast with Andrew Predmore, the executive director of Furman University's Shi Institute, as he shares insights into their innovative initiatives. From on-campus climate action planning to a closed-loop food system, the episode delves into sustainability challenges and solutions. Join the conversation as they discuss composting, student engagement, and outward-facing programs, including the Sustainability Leadership Initiative. Andrew sheds light on working with businesses for sustainability and fostering leadership in South Carolina. Discover how Furman is making strides in sustainability, from reducing carbon emissions to unique partnerships. Don't miss the innovative steps they're taking in waste reduction at athletic events, creating a blueprint for sustainable practices. Gain valuable perspectives on sustainability and be inspired by Furman's commitment to a greener future!

Guest: Andrew Predmore, Director of the Shi Institute at Furman University

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez '24

 

Transcript: 

Mary: Today, our guest is Andrew Predmore, who is the Executive Director of the Shi Institute for Sustainable Communities here at Furman University. Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew: Oh, thank you. I'm excited to be here and excited to talk about innovation and entrepreneurship.

Mary: Absolutely. Because you guys have some innovative programs, which we're going to talk about but you've only been here a year right?

 Andrew: Not even a year. Getting close. So I started October 5th or 6th of last year so getting close to a year, yeah.

Mary: How are you finding it? 

Andrew: Oh, I love it.

Mary: Not to put you on the spot. 

Andrew: Well yeah I can't exactly answer like, oh, no good at all. But no, I truly am enjoying the position. And you know, I tell people that I really have one of the most fun jobs there is out there because we do a lot of good. And really, you know, my biggest challenge is trying to figure out what in the world to say no to because all the sustainability work that comes our way is good work. And work that's needed in the world. So lots of opportunity and lots of good things to do.

Mary: So let's talk about that because you have some innovative programs that you guys are working on. Can you kind of… I don't want to say just list them all but kind of talk about them, list them and then I want to jump in…there's some that I want to dive into 

Andrew: Well it would depend on how you define innovative right? But we have a lot of programming. I couldn't possibly list them all for you. Yeah, I would say like just in a broad sense, like the Shi Institute is working on and off campus on sustainability issues and we're looking to make a difference in both places.

Andrew: And along the way, we engage students and faculty in that work. So you know, I'll mention just a couple of things going on on-campus and a couple of things off campus and then we can see where that takes us. But on campus our biggest push right now is climate action planning for the university. So Furman University has a carbon neutrality commitment for 2026. It's going to be really difficult to meet that commitment. And so we're really intentionally working on how we are going to pursue that commitment or we need to reset sort of when we're going to be carbon neutral and what is a pragmatic pathway to reduce carbon emissions because we're in here right now and the lights are on and we're using energy right now. And so that's, that's a real challenge for any university in any large organization. So you got to be innovative, you got to think outside the box. And we want to do it also in a way that supports the broader Greenville community. So that's a big thing that we do on campus and anything that we do on campus, we're always engaging students in that so we have a really vibrant student fellowship program. We also have a farm as you know, and that's an important thing on campus for students to get their hands dirty, and see what a closed loop food system looks like. So we'll probably get to that as an innovation but like, you know, we pick up the food waste that comes out of the back of the dining hall, we take it to a compost facility, we compost it, the compost comes back to the garden. The garden grows produce that is then sold to Bon Appetit. So we really have been working on that this summer, and over the next year to scale that up and see how much we can produce and have students learn along the way. So those are two things on campus.

Mary: So quick question about that - Is the goal then to produce so much that then we can sell it to local farmers and stuff? 

Andrew: No, I mean, not yet. I mean, the goal right now is to produce as much as we can that will then be served in the dining hall. So I'm gonna go to the dining hall in a few minutes when we're done with this, and you're gonna and I'm gonna see like all those heirloom tomatoes that we grow, I mean, hundreds of pounds and tomatoes this summer. We're getting close to $15,000 over the produce that's gone to Bon Appetit over the summer. So that really is healthy local food going to our students, our faculty, our staff right now, in the future, we might do CSA or do some other things where we sell that in other places, but for now, it's just going to the dining hall.

Mary: What about the compost? What's the goal for that? 

Andrew: The compost as you might imagine it… we've produced quite a bit of organic material, right and like so students out there and everybody listening, you know, be conscious of what you know, sometimes our stomachs are bigger than… what's the saying? 

Mary: Our eyes are bigger than our stomachs.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s right. But then that translates into food waste. So be aware of that, but there's a lot of that and then there's a lot of leaf litter and organic material that comes on campus. So we blend that right? You have to get the carbon to nitrogen correct and compost that so we have quite a bit of it. We're going to start to sell that as a way to raise funds for the Shi Institute. 

Mary: Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said for the farmers like local farmers, who are we selling that to?

Andrew: Right now… we're not, we haven't even until now this podcast. I'm not even marketing that we're selling. And we've sold you know, several $1,000, but we're looking to scale that up because we have a lot of organic material and a lot of finished compost. The one little bottleneck we have though is filtering the compost. So we can't have plastic and forks and things that sometimes end up… so we have students out there sometimes filtering that so…

Mary: I’ve seen some of the pictures that students have posted about people accidentally throwing away their forks and stuff in the DH. 

Andrew: Yeah, the DH has a tough job right? Like anybody that's been there knows things are moving quick. And sometimes, you know, a fork or things just end up in the wrong place. But we'll solve that, we're going to filter it.

Mary: So I want to turn now and talk about some of the outward facing programs.  So you have the sustainability leadership initiative.Tell us about that.

Andrew: Yeah, so um, you know, think about it this way, like, like, for the world for society for South Carolina to become a more sustainable place. We've got to work for large organizations, right? And so and large organizations have to change just like Furman has to adapt…other organizations, businesses across the state need to adapt and so Furman and the Shi Institute partners with a nonprofit called sustain SC and each year we do a training that lasts five different sessions throughout the year across the state of South Carolina with around 25 business, nonprofit and public sector professionals that sign up to be in that and we're teaching them about the core aspects of sustainability. We take them out into the field and show them some of the challenges. And what we want to do is create a network of sustainability leaders across the state that are going to move us forward. So that's that program. This will be its third year. We have a really great class of people involved with that, real leaders across the state, and it's been fun putting together that program like we're taking them out to Waitis Island, which is a big conservation win. It’s an under conservation easement. It's a barrier island off the coast near Myrtle Beach. So we will take them out there and show them like this is an amazing thing. This is amazing that it’s protected in perpetuity, but they will also have to grapple with the fact that, like you all might have heard on the news this week that Myrtle Beach is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. Right? So there's all that urban development and around that area. And so those students that are in this program, those professionals, we're going to grapple with that like and hopefully that's going to help create better leadership and sustainability. Yeah,

Mary: Yeah, because those people are the people who will then go back to their companies and it has to come from the top down, right? So that's a great way to network. I like that. That's very innovative thinking there and I like that because a lot of people in the industrial side of things don't think like that, right? Unnecessarily. 

Andrew: Yeah, I mean I think that is changing. You're right and I think that the innovative thing about that is getting leaders embedded in organizations that then construct and flip systems to more sustainable ones. 

Mary: Exactly. Getting them to flip the systems. That's exactly what I was talking about. You have one with manufacturers, a program with manufacturers, talk about that one 

Andrew: Yeah, so this really was you know…I don't always love the word pilot but how about demonstration project? This summer where we worked with the South Carolina manufacturers extension program, and they know that there's like 7000 or so small to medium sized manufacturers across the state of South Carolina. And a lot of what they do is supply the really big manufacturing businesses in South Carolina. So think of the you know, the big name industries or companies that you all know like BMW or Michelin or Volvo or, or Milliken across the upstate, right? So they have many, many small suppliers. And then those small suppliers are under some pressure now to understand their carbon footprint. You know, because they supply these bigger businesses that have commitments to reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. So I'm like okay, knowing this I'm like, alright, there's a there's a niche here for the Shi Institute right to step in and roll our sleeves up and see if we can help some of these small to medium sized businesses understand their carbon footprint, and it helps their business because then they can say to their customer, their large customer, hey, we're working on it. It helps us because we got students who need to learn carbon accounting as a skill. So there's a really nice win-win. And so we did a couple of those this summer. They were fantastic. We work with a French company, which is located mostly in Anderson County, and they make advanced textiles. And then we work with a company that's really right down the road here called Mosaic Color and Additives. So we had two students do their greenhouse gas inventories, which is the first step like you cannot reduce your impact on climate without first understanding where your emissions come from, that are driving that impact. And so that's what the students do is, you know, we worked it was very much like a client consulting type experience for our students, which is super valuable for them.

Mary: That’s the Furman advantage right there.

Andrew: It is. We handed the company like a report. Here are your emissions, here's where they come from. And they can start thinking about okay, what can we do to lower emissions? How can we market ourselves as a more sustainable company as a result of taking this first step? So that was a great project and we're looking forward to potentially scaling that up next summer and I think yeah. 

Mary: I love the fact that you because when we think of people who need to really work on sustainability, we do think of the large companies right because they probably have the most greenhouse gas emissions, etc. But I love the reaching down to the smaller companies or supplying the bigger companies because that really, I think, will make their partnership stronger. 

Andrew: It should and it should create an advantage for those first movers in a small to medium sized manufacturing...because they can say to their larger customers, hey, we're serious about it. We're taking this first step. So we, we, you know, sometimes people think sustainability, shouldn't or can't work with the business sector and I think instead we need to be innovative and think about how we can support the change that needs to happen. And so that's what we've tried to do. 

Mary: Because we're part of that community. So why not? Right? 

Andrew: We're wearing clothes and we consume things and so we're all a part of this economic system and, and the challenge of sustainability is how are we going to meet human needs within the boundaries of what our ecosystems can provide? 

Mary: What kind of obstacles are you facing with some of these things that some of these initiatives that you're started?

Andrew: My own ability to keep up with all this. Like I mentioned, sometimes there's more opportunity than then I can capitalize on it. I mean, we're also involved with some really substantial grant work, research work on climate and climate resilience in South Carolina. Luckily, I have staff they're helping with that. We're also involved with athletics and athletics at Furman and starting to think about, you know, how can we make those events… move them towards zero waste or zero landfill events and so we have to really, I don't know if you want to get into that. 

Mary: I actually do. 

Andrew: I have some, I think some really exciting things that we're just starting this year. So I'm not going to say we're going to finish the thing, but my biggest challenge is keeping up keeping all these things going. And luckily, I have a great group of people that I work with. 

Mary: Because if you think about all of the ways from the concession stands, and even when people are tailgating and all that kind of stuff. That is a huge area that could be fixed. Right? So how are you… what kinds of things are you talking about? 

Andrew: Yeah, I'm, like I said, we're gonna take incremental steps just because of our own bandwidth. But I think students, we have an eco-rep program, and those are students that work in the residence halls here at Furman to encourage sustainable behavior among their peers. They're going to help us with this athletic thing, because we need some, we need some person power behind this because there's some education but you know, you think about like, just think of yourself at a football game or a basketball game and what's served there, you know, and you start to go through sort of the inventory of what you could consume there, and then you start to understand the challenge, right? So you get a hot dog. What is the hot dog served to you in? Maybe some sort of cardboard type of thing? Well, could that become a compostable? I guess cardboard is compostable. Making sure that everything that the food is served is compostable. And then you got to figure out how to compost and collect it and you got to train people to not put what’s compostable into the landfill bin.

So one of the cool things we're doing and it is with that company Mosaic Color and Additives…they have a compostable fork, that they're working on and it's sourced from US materials, so it's not made in China. And we're gonna pilot using that in men's basketball games this winter, and we'll collect it and compost at Furman compost. 

Mary: So that's the innovation right there. With the company. 

Andrew: You know, so we'll start with basketball. Our students are also going to be doing… our Greenbelt students that live in the cabins along the lake are going to do some waste audits. So they're going to help us this year understand the waste stream that I didn't describe perfectly there for each of the athletic events. So that next year, we really understand well, like what needs to happen to move towards nothing is going to landfills, either recyclable or compostable. That'll be… that's the ultimate goal with us. So cool, really cool stuff happening there and just thankful to have athletics just super supportive and excited about it and to have Mosaic Color and Additives also, like here use our product. 

Mary: Yeah, I heard their CEO talking about that fork. 

Andrew: Yeah, and test it in our compost like they're very open, transparent about working together on that. And that is probably, you know, I'm not in innovation and entrepreneurship, but that's a hallmark of good thinking. Right?

Mary: Right. That is innovative thinking. 

Andrew: Think about systems, think about being open and transparent and creating partnerships. 

Mary: Exactly.  One of the things that I find troubling is that we do have people in this country who don't believe that we need to do these things, right, that, that we don't necessarily need to be sustainable. How do you change the minds of people who aren't taking those actions that all of us can take? Or who don't have that same philosophy?

Andrew: Well, I would say a couple of things to that. And you're right, you're right. That's a challenge. If you watch the Republican primary debate the other night, you saw someone say that climate change is a hoax. Well, you know, 99.99% of scientists do not agree with that. Right? It's established fact as much as science can be fact at this point that climate change is real and it's driven by humans. Okay. But to your question, which is like, how do we start to convince people? I think one thing to do is kind of what I mentioned earlier, which is…all people are embedded in an economic system that currently is not terribly sustainable, right? It's based on a take from the earth, make something wasted model, and we have to change that. That is a big systems change. So I don't think the way to do it is to place a lot of guilt on other people, because a lot of times we're embedded in a system where it can be very challenging to live sustainably. That's not to say you shouldn't do what you can do. I really think you shouldn't but don't put all the blame on individuals. Instead, you know, let's look at systems change. Let's look like I talked about let's look at training leaders to work in organizations that can flip larger systems so that it's easier for you and I to go to a football game which I think is a you know, I like sports, but I don't want to create a bunch of waste when I'm there. So create a system when I get there, so I'm not generating so much waste. Right. So there's systems work to do. The other thing I would say is, you know, you got to start talking to people about these issues in ways that matter to them. Yes, absolutely. So like, you know, we talked about climate change, you know, if you're a sports fan, I don't want to go to a football game at 12 o'clock in South Carolina, in September. And I think that is going to be a more and more difficult, unpleasant experience if you look at the climate models. So that's something that a lot of people care about. It's part of our culture in the South is to go to college football games. We need to do something. Youth sports are a big thing. Like is it safe to practice in some of the heat and humidity that we're going to encounter? So talk to people about things that matter to them as a starting point, instead of hitting them over the head with you got to change your… and guilt and all that and I think people will start to see that. So…

Mary: That's audience, right? You got to know your audience, right? I tell my students that all the time. Whatever story you're telling. Start with the audience. You got to know how to tell it based on who your audience is. Right?

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I'm no communications scholar, but I've been in sustainability long enough to know that trick. 

Mary: Yeah. So I was looking at some of your history Andrew and I’m going way back a little bit. In undergrad, you were a politics major. 

Andrew: Yeah.

Mary: Trying to pull that out of my memory correctly. How has that helped you in what you do now? I mean, obviously, your PhD and your masters and everything is on sustainability. But…

Andrew: That's an interesting question that you know, I think probably some of the answer that I just gave, you know, politics is about speaking to audiences and convincing audiences so I don't know that without you asking me that question I've attributed the ability to answer that question to that experience, but maybe I think my undergrad at UVA was really more about like, critical thinking and, you know, a liberal arts education. I was a person that did not know what I wanted to do.I knew I was interested in political science and things like that, but I was also interested in the environment at that time, but I hadn't figured out environment… Sustainability wasn't really a thing. I hadn't figured out what my avenue would be there. And I think I know at Furman, we're better at that now, helping young people see the array of professions out there, but for me, it had to be like a winding path. 

Mary: Yeah, I was the same way. Was there something that you came across or some event or something that kind of spurred you into saying, okay, this is the direction I want to go in, and I want to get my higher education, get my Master's in that and and go on to be where you are today? 

Andrew: Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like I didn't read something, although there are certain things that I read that were impactful. I think if you haven't read Aldo Leopold, a Sand County Almanac, you should read that it's both beautiful and was really forward thinking and still applies today. But it didn't really come from reading or studying. It came from like when I was a kid growing up in Spartanburg, South Carolina. My dad would take my brother and I up into Pisgah National Forest, and we would go backpacking. He took us out west, we went out to Yosemite, we went to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. When I was 10 years old, I was backpacking in the Tetons.

Mary: That’s amazing. I love the Tetons. 

Andrew: So you start with like that just and I found interviewing students over the years both at Indiana University where I was before and at Furman, you ask him like, where's your passion for sustainability come from? Usually there's some sort of connection with nature. And for me, that's what it was. And then ever since then, I've been trying to figure out how to make an impact. How do we create a safe space for humanity to thrive without messing up what we got. 

Mary: So what has been the most rewarding thing in your career path that you've… because you were in sustainability at Indiana and now of course at Furman.

Andrew: That's a good one. You know, I can talk about like, different sort of things that were accomplished either at Indiana University or even at Milliken. I was there for a year. They were one of the first 50 companies to have science based targets for reducing their greenhouse gas emissions, prove targets… and that was really cool because not to say I did that but I was a part of that. That was awesome. We did some cool things at IU around waste and recycling like that system was really not functioning well. And we set that on a path to do much, much better. And that was a big, you know, that's a big campus. So we're proud of some of those accomplishments, but I mean, it may sound a little bit cheesy but truly like when a student that worked with me like as a kind of like here we have student fellows, at IU we had sustainability interns, when they come back and I can see on LinkedIn that they're working on these things or they asked for a recommendation and I'm blown away by like, what job they're about to get. Man that's awesome. And to know I have a little bit of piece of that, particularly ones that I worked really, really closely with, that's really super rewarding. So it's a mixed bag, you know, lots of things.

Mary: I totally get that because I feel that way with my students. You know when I see them succeed. So I like to kind of leave our listeners with a blueprint that they can take into their lives no matter what the conversation is about. There's always some advice or just some nuggets of information that they can use. What would you give to our listeners as something that they could take and do right now today? If they so chose to help in sustainability.

Andrew: Oh, gosh, I cannot give you just one. I think we kind of covered you know it a little bit but if you're passionate about… I have students, students more at IU and increasingly I think will happen at Furman will come ask me that kind of question like What should I do? I care… what should I do? And there's all those like, personal things that you can do, right? And for college students that can be hard because you're not in control of your living space necessarily. So like you and I, we might ought to look at the energy consumption in our household and there's the inflation Reduction Act, right? So there's a lot of incentives out there for solar or battery and I'm looking at that in my house right now. So those are things but college students, you don't really have a lot of control over where you live, so do what you can. But I think the other thing is think about this as a system. If you want to make a difference, some of the things that you need to do are learn to talk to people about these issues and be willing to do it. And we talked about some tips there like approach the audience with what they might care about. But also don't be afraid to be politically engaged. Because that's probably the highest level systems change that you, that students and any of us can get involved with. So if you have a voice on this, use it. 

Mary: That's a good point. I didn't even think about that.

Andrew: It’s not all technical stuff. It's about driving social and collective collective action.

Mary: I want to circle back around to Furman again. What are we doing well, and what do we need to do better?

Andrew: What are you talking… on campus or…

Mary: As you know, our goal and our sustainability plan is to reduce our carbon footprint. How are we doing basically? 

Andrew: Well, so you know, I mentioned one thing that we do exceptionally well, which is that closed loop circular system with food and food waste, and that's fantastic. And we'll be looking to scale out those issues. So as I've talked about compost and athletics and catering and so those are things we do well and we're going to do even better. We have nice greenhouse gas reductions relative to our 2008, 2007, 2008 baseline. Our greenhouse gas emissions have dropped like 37, 38%...

Mary: Which is great. 

Andrew: … which is very good. We have geothermal on different parts of campus. We have a good size solar installation across Poinsett Highway, so Furman has done a lot of things and so the facilities folks, Jeff Redderson and his team deserve a ton of credit for that. 

Mary: We have five buildings that are LEED certified… Am I right in that number? 

Andrew: I don’t know. 

Mary: Okay, well I’ll look it up and if you want to know, just email me. 

Andrew: Well, I know we had the first LEED building in the state of South Carolina. 

Mary: Yeah, Isabella did a story on it. Yeah our podcast producer did a story on it. 

Andrew: But what can we do better? Right. I talked about the climate action planning like we need to get to a point where we're looking at our greenhouse gas emissions year over year. And we're transparent about that. And we have a strategy to reduce those emissions year over year. So that's where we're headed. It's as I mentioned to you, it's it's it's challenging. We're not going to make those changes without careful planning, which has already started. So if you think about every one of or maybe not every one, but most of our buildings, this one included, has a natural gas boiler that heats the building. Well, their emissions are associated with natural gas consumption, so we need to move away from that but you can't just snap your fingers because Furman has money in that infrastructure, or that wouldn't make financial sense. So instead, you got to look at well, what's the lifecycle of the natural gas boilers at each building and which ones are coming to the end of there? And then what are we going to do then? We're going to electrify that building, the heating, and what's that going to cost? And so that's the kind of really the hard work that's ahead. And I don't know, I'm just really excited that facilities and other parts of administration are up for that work and yeah, and we're gonna, we're gonna do it.

Mary: Andrew, anything else you want to tell our listeners about what the Shi Institute's doing and has in the pipeline? 

Andrew: Well, I would say like this, this podcast is about innovation. And I want to thank former President David Shi who just committed a million dollar gift to us and that kind of support you know, whether it's $5, or a million dollars helps us do the things that matter most. So looking at issues around biodiversity loss and climate change and climate resilience. Instead of having to chase grants or other ways to support our work, we're able to… with that kind of support, we're able to do the things that matter most and so that would be a thing that were like, first, thank you and for other folks out there that want to support a group doing great work in the upstate in South Carolina, come talk to us.

Mary: Absolutely. Andrew, thank you so much.

 Andrew: Thanks, Mary.

 

Mary: I appreciate it.

 

Mary: That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producer Isabella Martinez.  But until next time, I'm your host Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.

 

TRANSCRIPT

MARY: Hi everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill. This podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. This is also the podcast where we talk to entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers about their endeavors, and we share their stories with you in hopes of inspiring you. And today we welcome guests Katherine Sandoval Taylor and Heather Mckenzie Patterson, who are both Furman alumni and founders of the immersive production company On Stage Collective. Katherine and Heather, welcome to the show. 

Katherine: Thank you for having us.

Heather: Thank you so much, Mary. 

Mary: Yeah, absolutely. I wanted to start because I was of course looking at your all's career paths and your accolades and stuff and you have been… both of you have been in some of my favorite operas and performances. Can you talk and Katherine, we'll start with you. Can you talk about some of your favorite shows that you've been in?

Katherine: Yeah. So um, gosh, I've been so fortunate to really be able to check off a lot of bucket list roles in my career. Some of my favorites, I guess, have been Maria in West Side Story. That was a role that I was looking forward to playing my entire life. And I have played that role twice. Love. One of those was actually in South Carolina, with an opera company in South Carolina, and we rehearsed at Furman. So that was really cool. Another one of my favorite roles was from Light in the Piazza. I played Clara and that was a really beautiful production. Another favorite stage memory of mine was when I did two national tours, two national jazz tours. And that was a really great experience, kind of like living the tour bus life for a while. That was fun, and I really got to kind of explore a different side of my voice that I didn't… I haven't had the opportunity to perform that much with, but it was really… it was a really cool experience doing that tour. And I worked with some incredible musicians and singers that I learned a lot from. So yeah, those are some of my favorites. 

Mary: Yeah, I love that. Okay. Heather, what about you?

Heather: Sure. Um, I would say that, gosh, it's been a minute since I've sung any opera, but I would say that…I did that with Arbor Opera Theater up in Michigan. After I finished my master's up there at Michigan State. And another role that was… I actually only completed scenes of this but it was Sophie from Deb Rosenkavalier..and that’s one my favorite operas of all time. So that was really fun. Got to revisit that a couple of times. And I would say one of my most like meaningful memories was singing at Carnegie Hall, which I had done a few times versus a chorister in high school. That was of course like, oh my gosh, I can't believe we're here on the stage. You know, really exciting. And then I went back as a singer with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra and chorus. We went there a couple of times and we sang Peter Grimes, the full opera concert version of the opera there. And while we were in rehearsal for that, I was singing in the chorus it was a big chorus for that and I, the soprano walked down to the front and I was like, next time I'm on this stage, I'm going to be out front in a big poofy gown as a soloist and I even said it to a friend of mine and of course next year like that's, that's where I'm going to be next time and it was one of those like manifest moments where that's what happened. So the next time I got to perform there was as a soprano soloist with a big choral orchestral work, we were singing a Schubert mass, and I bought the big pink gown and sang at the front of the stage with one of my favorite conductors. And it was a blast and probably the best part was just that I had a lot of friends and family come to the performance from all over the country. We had a big party afterwards and so that was just really special to celebrate. Like I saw my parents, you know, in the 12th row like oh my gosh, freaking out. It was really nice to have that memory with people that I love. 

Mary: Yeah, I love that idea of manifesting that, you know, speaking that into existence right? I think that's what well, I think a ton of artists do that no matter what, you know, whether they're performing arts or the you know, different kind of art, but I think that that spirit that comes with just being an artistic person kind of drives that in you and you and you have to believe them, right? 

Katherine: Yeah, definitely. 

Heather: And it can be scary, I think even like I would call myself a recovering perfectionist. And so I would be like, if those perfectionists out there know you don't want to even do something unless you know you're going to be awesome at it like the best perfect at it, right? 

Mary: Yeah. 

Heather: And so manifesting something like that or saying something out loud that could easily never happen. Like that could easily never work out for you. I wouldn't, it's not in my nature to want to really, like put it out there unless I knew for sure I could just make it happen.

Mary: Right. Right. I don't think you’re alone in that. 

Heather: It was a leap of faith, you know?

Mary: Yeah, for sure. I don't think you're alone in that. I think all entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers have that. I mean, we talk to other entrepreneurs on this podcast and they want to get the best, most perfect product or iteration of whatever their venture is right out there. When in fact, we should just literally just do it, right? 

Katherine: Yeah, sometimes Heather and I joke about the phrase that we need to implement in our lives a bit more, which is better done than perfect. Because sometimes, as Heather said, being a perfectionist, I would also lope myself into that category of recovering perfectionist. I feel like being a perfectionist can sometimes hold you back from opportunities and, and at least taking that first step to try and that's important to kind of acknowledge that sometimes you do have to take that leap of faith just to maximize your potential. 

Mary: Yeah, absolutely. 100% I love that. Say that phrase again. I want to make sure our listeners get that. 

Katherine: Better done than perfect. 

Mary: Yeah, better done than perfect. That's my new motto.

Heather: Always within reason.

Mary: Of course. Yes. Absolutely. We always put our best foot forward anyway. So you guys have known each other for a long time. You were roommates here at Furman? 

Heather: Yes, we were. Longer ago than I care to say. 

Mary: So you're both vocal performance majors while you were here. And of course, you both went on to get higher degrees and stuff. But was there any competition between you for roles and stuff while you're here? 

Heather: Oh, that's so funny. Well, I want to clarify that I started out as a vocal performance major, but I did change my major to a BA in voice. And that was because I wanted to double major with psychology.

Mary: Oh, that’s great. 

Heather: At least at the time, you couldn't get like a Bachelor of Music in one thing and a Bachelor of Arts in something else. You had to get a Bachelor of Music in two things and a Bachelor of Arts in two things. And I remember the conversation sitting down with Dr. Thomas, the department chair at the time, to like deliver this news that I wanted to change my major and how was that going to affect my scholarships and was I going to be allowed to do it, you know? And so I…he said, yes, of course, Heather, we will support you doing that and so I was able to shift. And as much as I could, I tried to take like the classes that the performance majors were taking. And so it was just a matter of like, oh, I guess I'll just overload every semester that I'm here to get in all of the credits for both majors. But there were things that I didn't get to take because I wasn't a performance major, just specific classes. One of them I think, Kat you'll know the…Was it a counterpoint class that you had to take a class…that I didn't have to take and by then we were roommates and so she was just like, I hate this.

Katherine: She could have helped me.

Heather: But to answer your question about competition… I mean, I don't think so. I never would… I'm very competitive with myself. But with the people that I love, like my my ride or die BFFs I don't want to compete with them at all, you know, like I want to celebrate them and to be honest, if there was ever a time where that might happen like, I mean Kat, you can say if this is not true, but I would just not want to audition like I would just want…if I knew it was something that best friend like Kat really wanted, like, I just wouldn't want to audition for that. I would be like, you know her hype girl for that role rather than like, out of my way let me try, you know. I don’t recall any competition.

Katherine: No, I don’t…Heather and I aren't competitive with each other. And I feel like it's just kind of like a personality trait that we both share. We weren't competitive then with each other and we're not competitive now. I feel like you know, I feel very strongly about surrounding myself with strong, talented, passionate women. And being surrounded by strong, talented, passionate women encourages you to be better at what you do. It's not about competition. It's about lifting each other up and empowering each other and learning from each other. And that's something that Heather and I… I've always really respected and looked up to Heather and learned a lot from her and I feel like that hasn't changed. We did that in college. I felt the same way then that I do now… that we empower each other and motivate each other. So, no, there was never any competition between us. 

Mary: Yeah, I love what you say about empowering each other and uplifting each other. And I think both of you have been teachers for close to 20 years now. What has informed… how is that experience and your performance experience informed On Stage Collective and what you're doing now?

Katherine: Oh, 100% Yeah. Such a large can of worms. 

Heather: Well, the reason that we began the company was out of our two studios. So just the background information is that yes, we both have been teaching in different iterations for years.

Then we honed our own private studios. I taught at a few universities for over 10 years, 12,13 years, something like that, but we were both building our private studios of voice and piano. And we both think big and we want what we put out there to be excellent. And I think it's been important to both of us to provide great opportunities for our performers, our students to be able to do big things, big performances, big opportunities. And so before, before COVID, we were talking about like, where maybe if we partner up, we're in totally different cities, totally different states. But what if we brought our students together? And really this was… Kat brought this idea to me. What if we partnered together with the students in our studio? And could we do a performance somewhere excellent that they don't have access to and even we don't have access to on our own, but could we pool our resources, pool our students, our talent base, and make something really incredible? And that was like the first conversation. You know, how it started was just to do something with our own two studios that we couldn't do on our own. Kat,  would you agree with how that started?

Katherine: Right. And it just kind of took off from there. So we were thinking big, and we took that leap of faith like we just talked about. It was a little bit scary. And I mean, honestly, it felt impossible to think about performing. I mean, fast forward to where we ultimately decided we wanted to try to perform which was 54 Below at Broadway's living room. I mean, every famous Broadway star you can think of has stood on that stage and has… and behind that microphone. And so that was a little bit intimidating and seemed out of reach. And we just put…we're such big thinkers…it was something we wanted to try for at least and then we surprised ourselves and then we had a full, all of a sudden, we had a full cast of people from all over the country ready to perform with us and make this big event happen. And it kind of just like snowballed from there. 

Mary: So talk a little bit about that process. And how did you, you already had some of the students, but did all of your students participate in that and how did that kind of come to fruition? 

Heather: Yeah, we auditioned them because, you know, I know what my students sound like, but not Kat’s students and vice versa. So, we wanted to make it as fair as possible too, you know, and have an outside person judge and choose who would be performing. So we brought in a panel of people, not just the two of us, but other music directors to listen to all of the singers and they didn't know whose student was coming, you know which student was coming from which studio. And so the students submitted videos, I think two full songs, and we had the panel and ourselves rank the singers and came up with kind of like, okay, our max number of singers was such and such number. And so not everyone got to go from our studios and not everyone from our studios auditioned, but we selected people from that audition, and it was basically half and half. Half students from Kat’s studio and half from mine. Now, this was pre COVID. And I did want to back up because when Kat mentioned the leap of faith…I feel like the first leap of faith was… I remember where I was standing. We were on a call and it was like should we just call 54 below like is that a thing? Can we just call them? Let's call them. So we did, you know, go to the website, call the number. This was a better done than perfect situation because we didn't we didn't have anything formulated yet or planned or when or who, what. We just called and that got the ball rolling and I think that built the confidence because it was just a normal person on the other side of the phone who just walked us through their requirements and what it would take to be selected, to be able to perform there. And then it's just steps, you know, one foot in front of the other, do this thing, and this thing, then this thing. And so that first cast, I think it was like 24,26, 28 singers, something in that number, and it's foggy because that group did not end up performing at 54 below. And that is because our first cast was set to perform July 2020. So we all know what that means. So we had planned and this was just the two of us putting on lots of different hats and utilizing every skill we'd ever learned or gained to auditioning singers to craft the show to pick the music to assign the songs to the singers to arrange songs like over the phone. How does this chord sound for this because that cannot be a trio…

Mary: Wow. And you did that over the phone? 

Heather: Yeah. Before zoom was a thing. We were just on the phone trying to arrange songs together. And we did and the singers learned the music. It was so exciting. And it was I think April 2020 that we had to go, all right, if we don't make a choice right now to postpone or cancel this production, like we'll be within the 90 days of owing all of the money that we owe to the hotel and all the things right so we have to call it at some point. And it's it felt still like oh so optimistic April 2020 us. You know, or maybe by July like this, this virus will just burn up in the summer heat and it'll go away. And that did not happen. And so we did. We postponed it at that point to say okay, cast, we're gonna we're gonna try to do this again, but we need to, you know, wait and we tried to do it the following summer, July 2021. But unfortunately, I think there was some kind of whatever strain had come out that previous winter by December 2020. It still wasn't looking good.

Mary: Right.  

Heather: And people were still worried about going. It was almost worse then. And so we decided to, at that point, sadly cancel. So we had to just say… just end it. And that was heartbreaking. Really difficult to deliver that news to the cast. And then that is when that was like a big shift for us, which was okay, we're not… that's over but we just can't give up on this dream. We've worked so hard. We've put all these pieces together. We know we can do it. But when and how? And we were watching our own students in our studios every performance that they were in that year got canceled. Every graduation, every prom, you know all of our events after the other. Yes, our college students, just devastating. And talking to our singer friends, our teacher friends, directors just, it's just obliterated and it was so so sad. And so then we were like, Gosh, why can't we just open this up to anyone? We don't have to limit this to our own students. Everybody is just dying for a chance to perform again. Why don't we contact everyone we know? All of the choir teachers, theater directors, singers, voice teachers across the country, this network of people that we now know from our performing and teaching and grad schools and stuff and ask them Hey, do you have students who would want to audition for this? We're going to do this. It's going to happen and now we're opening it up to anyone and everyone. And you know, the first iteration was video auditions. So we could still do that, you know, no problem, of course. And so we did, and we were able to build two casts of singers and perform two performances in 2022, which was so satisfying. Many of the singers were still coming from our own studios, so that was especially satisfying to see them performing after all this time. Even some of them who were in that first 2021 cast that was supposed to perform…sorry 2020. But now with singers who…Maine, California, Florida, Michigan, like all…

Katherine: Washington State.

Mary: All over the country. 

Heather: Yeah. Singers from all over who were just craving performing again. And that was really, really nice to fulfill the dream that we had set out to accomplish and also be fulfilling the dreams of all of these young artists. That was just spectacular.

Mary: You know, I think you know, 2020 threw a complete loop and especially for those of you who started companies quite right before and… but we do have a lot of entrepreneurs who really either started right before or during and it was a great time… I will say this, it was a great time for planning and for iterating right? Like figuring out okay, this didn't work because… obviously you guys ran into a brick wall, right? And, but so many people would stop at that point, right? That's.. We failed… you know, COVID took us out, you know, kind of thing. How did you and because I'm sure those thoughts entered your minds at some point. And Katherine, I'll start with you on this one. How did you kind of push those thoughts out and keep going?

Katherine: Well, I mean, at the root of it, I feel like artists specifically, I can't speak to other entrepreneurs and different, on different platforms. But artists at the heart of everything are resilient. I mean, look at Broadway artists, Broadway was probably the last, the last group of people that went back to work. They were out the longest, and then… but resilience, you know, wins the race. So I feel like even in my own studio, we were.. I was creating opportunities for my students that were unique. And it pushed my thinking outside of the box in a really exceptional great way that I am grateful for, because it made me think about art, performance art, and singing and acting in a different way than I ever had to one thing that we… in my own studio we started doing during COVID, and we have maintained this project to date, was I produce professional music videos for my students, and I partner with a cinematographer. We started that because of COVID because all of our performances for the year shut down. I was on Zoom teaching all of my regular lessons. And so we decided to do these outdoor music video shoots with a cinematographer that I hired and I directed the shoots and every, every music video had a different theme and a different concept and a different aesthetic. And that was a product of COVID and that's the resilience in artists that you see. It doesn't surprise me that there are other entrepreneurs that kind of like… used the COVID time as a springboard to launch their dreams into reality to kind of regroup, put their nose down, and think about what they wanted to do and kind of get a plan and I feel like that's exactly what Heather and I did. We, you know, if we would have if COVID wouldn't have happened and we would have gone on to do the performance as we planned, it would have been about 25 of our singers from each of our studios and it would have been wonderful, and it would have been great. But what happened in 2022 was phenomenal. And we were so lucky to have so many of those same singers back with us and I was thrilled for them, but to also add other people into the mix, to give those people that we didn't know until now the same opportunity to fulfill those dreams was just… it's just so exciting and it's just it was an amazing experience for us to watch I think especially because Heather and I are both people who love being on the stage and we have had many, many opportunities to fulfill those dreams of our own being front and center performing on grand stages. But to give that back to not only our students, but to really any performing artist that is looking for that opportunity. That is just so fulfilling. 

Mary: Yeah. And I think COVID showed us there are different ways of doing things. We don't always have to do things the conventional ways… we can work remotely or do things remotely and I mean, you might not have had the people from St. Louis or from Washington state if you had not had that experience maybe. 

Katherine: Exactly. 

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

Heather:  You know what, Mary, I was trying to think back to how long Kat and I were deliberating, giving up, you know, we're just not doing it when COVID hit and I can't even remember a single conversation that we had about not moving forward.

Mary: I love that. 

Heather: And not trying again. And that's not to say that we're special. I think it's exactly what Kat was saying about artists being resilient. It's, you know, how many times have we auditioned for things and gotten a no? If you aren’t already thick skinned from getting rejections as a performer, maybe it would be difficult to persevere. But that's the name of the game. That's what this is like, you know how… so many no's before you get a yes. This was just another no that we just had to move past and maybe maybe it's rose colored glasses looking backwards. I know it was really scary. And I know there was some floundering as to you know, what does this look like next, but I just don't think we were ever ready to throw in the towel. It was just, it was just a wait and plan and ideate and come up with something better. So I'm very grateful. So so grateful to have a partner and best friend forever ride or die. That was my partner that just doesn't give up. No one I know… And this is just me. I'm just gonna like wax poetic here about Kat, but I don't know anyone..anyone, any person in my life who has persevered more than she has both professionally and personally. So I look up to her. I admire her so much for that. And that encourages me to not give up and to persevere. And so it was, although so scary, I wouldn't have wanted to face it with anyone else because I knew that she wasn't going to give up, I wasn't gonna give up, we're just going to, you know, keep moving forward. And I know that not all partnerships are rosy, or perfect and anything like that. And certainly we've had our conflicts and our challenges, but I think our relationship was forged at Furman in those beginning stages of really crafting who we are as people and artists and that just builds a beautiful foundation for our professional partnership. So I'm grateful for that.

Mary: We've talked a lot on this podcast about especially when you're starting out on ventures you have to be extremely selective about who you partner with, who you hire, who are your first hires, and those kinds of things. And I think this is a prime example of, you know, this was probably a natural partnership just because you guys have been friends for so long and you both have the same interest and the same talents and want to get to the same place and help people get there too, right? One of the things that I was thinking about is that my students sometimes when I give them a project or they pitch their projects to me, right? And then they pitch their idea and then they start throwing up roadblocks about why they might not be able to do this idea. And my comment to them is don't place roadblocks where there aren't any right? And so I think that's a good kind of philosophy that you guys, you know, kind of have too, is that even though you know the 2020 one got shut down, that's a temporary, you know, thing, right? And we can work around it. We can go around that road that roadblock right?

We've talked a little bit about the audition process and that kind of thing. What's so… I guess impressive to you guys about the just that immersive learning that you guys promote and supply the space for for your folks?

Heather: Kat, do you want to take that or do you want me to?

Katherine: Why don't you start Heather, I'll jump in though.

Heather: Sure. Yeah, so that's really important to us. I think. And that comes from the fact that we have been performers and teachers. So we know in our own experience as performers that you learn by doing and every performance you learn something every show that you're in, you take away things that you use in the next project, the next contract and same with teaching. We're always learning as teachers, right? So I think that although we know how important training is and education, and what we do for a living is teach singers how to sing. But then you really have to do the thing to gain the most from it. It's also like learning a foreign language. How do you really establish fluency in that language? By immersing yourself, by going to that country, and being around people speaking that language. So it's the same with what we do. And that's what we were initially looking for for our own students… was an immersive experience. These students who say I want to go sing on Broadway. Well, have you been to Broadway? Have you walked the streets of New York City? Have you been in a New York City rehearsal space? Let's go do that. Let me take you there and you can experience that life and you can work with Broadway stars, guest artists to impart wisdom to you and then you can perform on that stage at 54 below where these other famous people have performed and decide for yourself is this really is this…do I want this more than anything? Now that I've been here now I'm inspired to go after it and really do the work that it takes to get here for real for real. So that's what we continue to aim for. And that's, you know, the mission is to for it to be immersive and experiential and, and, you know, there are a lot of programs out there that provide classes and you can go to even New York and do other camps and those kinds of things. And a lot of times it's classes and they bring in maybe also Broadway stars to teach classes and to do q&a sessions. And maybe they perform a song with these folks at the end or you know, but are they the stars of the show? That's what we wanted to do. We really wanted to make our performances feature these young artists. The young artists aren't the backup singers. They're not in the background. They are on the stage. They are doing the performing. 

Katherine: They are the show. They're the show.

Mary: Yeah, like that. Yeah.

 Heather: And that's how they learn best and grow and are challenged and we've had singers come back and do the next year's show too, because they know that they will continue to gain experience and the education of a lifetime from doing the thing. And so that's been really encouraging to see as well.

Mary: Yeah. Katherine, do you want to add anything to that? Or that was actually a pretty good answer. 

Katherine: Heather was talking a bit about how giving them this real life New York experience. I feel like in a way not to say what we're what we do the week that we're in New York is perfect and glossy and there are no blood, sweat and tears put in. But I will say it's kind of giving these artists a taste of the New York experience the New York performing experience in New York rehearsal experience, the New York Broadway experience, the tourist experience, all of those things without moving to New York to have to, you know, pound the pavement and go to all the auditions and get a million nose in New York City. I will tell you getting a million no’s is always difficult. But getting a million no’s in New York City when you've moved there for you know, to pursue your dream is really difficult. So we're not saying that we're, we're, you know, pushing all of those things aside and giving them this path to Broadway. But what we are giving them is an opportunity to experience all of those things for a week without having to move to New York City to try to go to a million auditions to do one performance at 54 below. We're giving that to them kind of in a really neat little fun, awesome package with a bow on top.

Mary: I always tell my students how do you know you want to do something until you actually do it? Right? You might think you want this this life, right? But you don't know until you actually do it and you're either gonna fall in love with it or decide that's not for me. Right? And this is a great way for your students to do that without the expense of living in New York. And like you say pounding the pavement working three or four jobs and going through auditions and classes and things like that.

Heather: And I feel like you know, there we've had several, there are two people that are coming to mind, that have made life shifts, career shifts, school shifts based on our program, and that is incredible to see. I know. I know one person specifically I'm thinking of, she attended… She was one of our original cast members. Then she came back for our first actual performance in 2022. She performed again in 2023 and after the 2022 performance, she texted me and said, I've changed, I'm changing my major. I'm going to be a music major and I've decided I have to live in this city. I have to perform here and that is what I'm destined to do. And that was amazing. I've also seen people come, you know that said, you know, I'm not I'm specifically not pursuing a professional career and performing but I will be back to perform with you every year because this is the best of both worlds. I get to live my life as an accountant. And I get to come and perform in New York City, not just like in a church basement, but like on the stage of 54 Below. I mean, you're getting the best of both worlds. And so I love to hear stories like that, from either sides of that. People who are making a life shift and saying I have to do this for the rest of my life. Or people who are going to say, you know, I'm not going to do only this for the rest of my life. But this gives me that opportunity that I would never have if I didn't do your program.

 Mary: And that's important too, right? Because it creates a life balance. It gives people that creative outlet, they get to hang out with people who have the same interest and work on their personal craft. I love that. So what's next for On Stage Collective?

Heather:  We are excited to be opening auditions for our next New York cabaret, which is going to be next June. So the date of that performance will be June 15. So the week leading up to that will be our immersive week in New York City. And auditions are officially open already. So in the audition is filling out an application, attaching a photo of yourself, headshot type photo and uploading too, one minute video cuts and that's it. So we're excited about that.

Mary: And they can do that at onstagecollective.com?

Heather: They can. Yeah, they head to our website. Our social media handle is onstage collective official. And so we always post information there as well about what's upcoming. But really excited to go back. I think one thing that really solidified this past performance this past June in New York was our team. So that first go around, it was just Kat and me doing all the things and that was a fun time but what was really special is honing our full staff. So we have an incredible music director and an incredible production assistant stage manager. We have found great band members to join On Stage. We have an incredible photographer and videographer. And now we've got this beautiful group who work really well together. All creative, artistic, passionate, hard workers. And, and that's been really fun. So we're able to now continue with that same group rather than reinvent the wheel every time, which is exhausting like any listener knows. So this feels really good to settle into our group, our staff, and it feels like you know, a family of sorts. And so now we know I mean our music director Jeremy Jacobs is like Johnny on the spot. He's so creative, can do anything. Kat always jokes that whenever we ask him hey Jeremy, what do you think of this or can you do this? His answer is always absolutely. Like who doesn't love hearing that? You know? Right, he's ready for anything. He's so excellent with our  cast members, both our youngest members who are the youngest, 13 years old all the way through our adult members, you know, the accountants who are coming to live out their dreams in these performances. So that's been really fun. We had a great group for this past year and hoping to continue those collaborations with those artists.

Mary: Yeah, those kind of yes-men are great. 

Heather: Yes-men and women are wonderful to have around. 

Katherine: I would like to add, you know, the auditions are open and sometimes a misconception that is out there. I'm not sure how it's out there but people kind of like select themselves out of these auditions by saying like, Oh my god, well, I'm too old. I can't do that. Like I mean that's I'm that's not for me. Or my daughter is too young. She's only 13. She can't perform in New York City. We this past cast I don't know if our youngest,  our youngest was 14. I mean, yeah. So we accept cast members for this same show from ages 13 through adults. And that's something that makes a show really exciting and interesting. These… it's a variety of people not only from different walks of life and different career paths in different parts of the country, but different ages in different places in their lives. And that's really cool. 

Mary: Yeah, that is really cool. What, how many folks can you take at one time? 

Heather: It’s about 25 in a cast. It's all online. If you go to our website on stage collective.com, there's an auditions page that will show you what we are currently casting for… what opportunities are open. And you can click on the application there. Pretty short application. You upload a headshot, two videos, one minute cuts of two songs, and we accept singers on a rolling basis. So as we receive them, our panel will listen to the auditions and make casting decisions. And we'll cast them in specific types of roles whether it's a lead role or a supporting role, that kind of thing. And once our cast is full, it's full.

Mary: All right, so before I let you guys go this afternoon, I want to have each of you give a piece of advice to a young entrepreneur in the arts. And when I… when I use the term entrepreneur, I'm talking about not just people who have created their own businesses, right, because I think that artists by nature are entrepreneurial in spirit because they have to go out and sell themselves you know, to the directors and the producers and the people who are making the decisions about roles and whatnot. So Kat, I'll start with you. Can you talk a little bit about some advice that you would give young artists and entrepreneurs?

Katherine: Yeah, so I was thinking about this question earlier. And the fact is, so I have two pieces of advice. But the fact is, when I was thinking about it, I wanted… I was like, how can this advice not sound intimidating? Because the fact is, being an entrepreneur, being an artist, being a human nowadays, it's just hard. It's just really difficult. So there are challenges and they’re low moments. But the two pieces of advice that I would say are really important, and I think about this all the time, like probably every single day. The first thing is, you've got to have hard work, dedication and commitment and those things pave your path to success. There are very few exceptions and very few shortcuts to a path to success. It really comes down to hard work, dedication, and commitment. If you want anything bad enough, you have to be ready to put the work in. There is no… there just not a lot of shortcuts. The second piece of advice that I would say… this applies to artists. When I first heard about this concept, it was about being an artist, being a singer, but I feel like it really applies to anyone either an entrepreneur or just a person living their life. I feel like it's really important… I tell my students this all the time, it's really important to establish a small inner circle of trusted people, colleagues, artists, coaches, therapists, friends that are there for you and help you in whatever you're doing, whether it's business, whether it's artistry, whether it's just your friends, but because the fact is, everyone has an opinion. And sometimes there are just too many cooks in the kitchen. And everyone's opinion is not always helpful to you on your journey. So it's important to have those trusted inner circle of people that you can go to and say, hey, like for instance, I have a business coach. I don't get business advice from just every person on the street, but I guarantee you every person on the street has an opinion on how I should run my business. That is not…that is not useful for me on my journey and, and in the worst case scenario, it's actually traumatizing to hear everyone's opinion about you at all times as an artist specifically, everyone has a thought on the way your voice sounds. Everyone has a thought on your performance. And if you listen to every single person who had an opinion about your voice, or your business or the way you're living your life, it would be traumatizing. So it's very useful for me as an artist and an entrepreneur and as a person in general to have an inner circle of people that I trust, that I know I can go to, and that their opinions are valuable to me. They matter and they affect me and everyone else gets a nice, very polite, thank you very much. I

Mary: I think we should learn that phrase. Thank you very much and then take what we want, leave what we want, right? Because I believe what you say is so true about everyone's gonna give you an opinion. I don't know how many entrepreneurs I've talked to on this podcast that say that every single one of them have faced naysayers, you know, and if you face too many and you open that circle up too big then it can be paralyzing, in fact, right?

Katherine: And I'm not saying that there shouldn't be people that tell you no… that tell you when you're making a mistake. Heather would be the first person to tell me if I was making a mistake, and I appreciate that. I don't build an inner circle based on people who are yes men. And yes women. I build my inner circle based on people that I trust, and that their opinions and their advice is valuable to me. 

Mary: Yeah. All right, Heather, why don't you take that question?

Heather: Yeah, I'll say that my first piece of advice because I've got two also…goes hand in hand with that, which is after you surround yourself with that inner circle of people whose advice you trust….after that, you have to trust your gut. What do you have without your gut? You know, you have to trust your gut and so take all of that information, hone all of that down and then believe it and trust what your gut is telling you to do. And sometimes it will go against some of the advice that you receive. And that can be really scary, but sometimes you have to do that. And the second piece of advice goes with that, which is don't be afraid to fail. So trusting your gut might mean making a mistake and having to learn from that. We have made mistakes in our business. We have hired people that didn't work out or spent money on things that didn't bring value to our company and to our clients. And those are hard lessons, but we improve… we get better because of them. So trust your gut and the fear is but what if I fail? Well, what if you do? Then you're going to learn and you're going to brush yourself off and do better the next time. So that's my advice for people, for students, for college kids, or especially artists and entrepreneurs.

Mary: Yeah. Ladies, thank you so much. This has been a great conversation and I could probably talk to you all afternoon, but I know we're all busy.

Katherine: Thank you for having us. 

Heather: Thank you so much Mary.

Mary: Yeah, absolutely. So just to remind everybody, you can get in touch with them. Just go to onstage collective.com If you want to find out more about those auditions and the kinds of things that they're doing with their students. So that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Remember, you can catch the podcast two ways now. You can check us out on our YouTube channel as well as of course listening to wherever you listen to your podcast, but make sure that you don't miss an episode by hitting that subscribe button so you're notified when new episodes are released. This episode is produced by Communication Studies major Isabella Martinez. Thank you for tuning in. I'm Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.

In this episode of the Class E Podcast, Dr. Kasie Whitener and Host, Mary Sturgill explore the fascinating intersection of Taylor Swift's career, entrepreneurship, and the power of love.  From the impact of Taylor's re-recording on the music industry to her savvy business decisions in negotiating streaming rights, the conversation delves into the entrepreneurial lessons embedded in Taylor Swift's journey. Join the discussion as they uncover Taylor Swift's entrepreneurial blueprint, offering valuable insights for leaders, innovators, and dreamers. 

Guest: Dr. Kasie Whitener

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez

TRANSCRIPT:

MARY: Hi there, everyone. You may have noticed that that is not our regular music. And that's because today we are talking about Taylor Swift. Yeah, that's right. More specifically, we are having a discussion about her innovation, her entrepreneurial spirit, and the economic impact that she is having on our country and now that she’s started her world tour, probably other countries. So I want to welcome you to this episode of the Class E Podcast all about Taylor Swift. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership with the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And of course, I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. And can I just tell you I've been so looking forward to this conversation that we're gonna have today, and I hope that you enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed researching it and chatting with my friend Kasie Whitener. Dr. Kasie Whitener is joining me today. Kasie is an author. She's an entrepreneur, she teaches entrepreneurship at the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. She and her daughter are Swifties. I do believe. Kasie, that you have some proof of that. Yeah, there we go. The friendship bracelets.

 She and her daughter are Swifties. And she's my friend of course. So when I thought about this podcast episode topic, of course, I thought about having Kasie on the show to talk with us about that. Kasie, welcome to the show.

 KASIE: Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and any excuse to talk about entrepreneurship, which I get paid for. And also Taylor Swift which I don't get paid for. This is like it's perfect. It's the perfect combination of both.

 MARY: Yeah, I love it.

 “It’s me, hi, I’m the problem, it's me…”

 MARY: And of course, she is not the problem. She's our topic today. That's Taylor Swift. She has been in our lives for 17 years, guys. I can't believe it's been that long. We've known her since she was a kid. And now of course as especially with people like Kasie who have children, she is in her children's lives as well, socially. And so today the conversation is going to be about her innovation, her entrepreneurship, her economic impact, as I said, because now her entrepreneurship is bolstering others, not just herself. And Kasie I want to start with…we talked about, you know, her fandom and, and all of that and how she's pulling more fans in every day and I want to start with talking about her marketing. Can you talk about some of the things that you've noticed that she's doing right?

 KASIE: Yeah, so you know, I'm hosting this digital marketing class in the honors college right now at the University of South Carolina. And one of the things we have been talking about is online communities, and the ability of online communities to amplify the message of a product, a company, a brand, right? So Taylor Swift very clearly a brand…has put together this Eras tour, which the idea of it is so beautiful, she's got 10 albums, she's walking people through 10 different versions of herself essentially. We're seeing her entire kind of career all onstage at the exact same time. Artists typically come forward… they do the one album that they're promoting right? And they'll play mostly from that album, but in her case, she's decided she's going to do them all and so depending on which show you get to see, you get to see two or three songs from each of the albums.​​​ The fandom has gone crazy online because a lot of people are going to a show… they're seeing three or four songs from Lover, they're seeing two songs from Folklore, they're seeing one song from you know…the version she put in the movie theater only had one song from our favorite album, which is the one that she released over the summer, Speak Now Taylor's version, and so when we you know you kind of get obsessed with it. You're like, oh, this is my album. I can't wait and then you get to the show, and you're like, oh, she only gave me one song for my era, you know? And so then people just keep coming back for more and more. So everything around the excitement of it. This online kind of cult following for her, the community that has grown up around it. She also drops a bunch of hints and creates these little kind of Easter egg nuggets that people started building up these conspiracy theories and well she said this at this time and she was wearing a blue dress on this day and I can't even pretend to keep up with all of that except that it all shows up in my Instagram.

 MARY: Mine too. And my Tik Tok and my Tik Tok.The other thing is with those little easter eggs…and there's a Tik Tok video going right now that came up on my feed last night about the Easter eggs. I think this is brilliant on her part because like you said: one, she's creating that community, that family. She talks directly to her fans that other artists…not in a way that any other artist does right now I don't think or has in the past I should say. But the Easter eggs… we all love a good mystery right? And we all love trying to figure things out so she has us intrigued and on the edge of our seats.

 KASIE: Well, the way that she's predicting what she's going to do next. So everybody kind of says, Well, are we going to see this next? Are we going to see that next? So of course, I know we're going to talk about this on the business side. But she's been rerecording some of her earlier albums because she didn't own the master recordings. But she did own the copyright of the music itself. And so she re-recorded them so that she could then profit off the albums being sold, right? So we have all these albums where they're Taylor's version albums. And the Taylor's version albums are the ones that she actually re-recorded, which there's a whole other sideline there about really that is because when you get to take a look at your own work and do it again, you're a different person. You're a different artist, and it's just been incredible to listen to how her voice has changed. And sorry..I went crazy fangirl, down the rabbit hole with that one.

 MARY: No, it’s true though. No, I totally agree. It's true. I was listening to something, maybe her it was her first version of 1989 or something. And, or maybe it was, I can't remember which one it was quite honestly. But I was listening to the first version of her first album. And then I was listening to the newer version. I believe it was the first album. I might be wrong about that. I was listening to a version of one of her albums. And then the other version and her voice of course has matured because she started when she was a kid, right? And we can see the same evolution and other people we've known who've grown up from kids. I see this in Kelly Clarkson who can sing anything right? But I'm also seeing it specifically in our girl Taylor, and just the re-releasing of those with her, with the maturity in her voice and the way that she sings certain lines I've noticed and the different clips that I've seen online and stuff is totally different too and people are here for it.

 KASIE: Yeah, well so the two…I think the two songs that we hear on that first album that are so… you hear “You Belong With Me,” which is the song about the girl in the bedroom, you know, and the boy that doesn't realize that she should be more than a friend right? There's that song and then the other song is the “Love Story” song which is about the guy getting on one knee and asking her to marry her right? These two songs… very wistful, very teenagery, teenage-y like this kind of first love ish kind of sound. And then when we hear it in Taylor's version, it's this kind of backward looking, nostalgic sort of feel to it, and I gotta tell you, I think Gen X is here for it. Like I think when we first heard those songs, we were too old for those songs, right? Like they were teenager songs and like the turn of the early 2000s, mid 2000s. Like we were past that right? And you get into now this age and she re records them and you hear that nostalgia to them and you’re like yes, that's the voice I'm looking for on those particular songs. So I definitely think she swept in an older generation with the Taylor’s version on some of these older versions.

 MARY: Yeah, I completely agree with that. We're both of Gen X right? And I have been swept up with all of this. I mean, I've always been a Taylor fan because I mean her poetry, her lyrics are just… No one writes a song like she does except maybe Dolly Parton, right? In my book. That's my personal opinion. Which is why she has a gazillion awards and that kind of thing because she's recognized by her peers as a good storyteller, as a good songwriter. And it's that storytelling, I think that is the key to her marketing, right? So it's the songs , the lyrics, it’s the storytelling with laying the Easter eggs for her fans and giving them hints about things when things are coming out and she and her PR team. You know, we know Tree Paine’s her publicist, they are brilliant. They make a brilliant team. I think of Tree Paine as the Olivia Pope of the music industry.

 KASIE: You're not wrong about that. So I think you're right about there being… the marketing piece here is knowing exactly who your audience is, and what they want, and giving them what they want. And it's interesting because I've been listening to these other podcasts lately that are talking about how the danger of pop culture is that it gives us exactly what we want. And so it's not necessarily stretching us or making us better people and this kind of thing. And it's almost like Taylor's like I get it, I get there are people for whom that's the thing they do, right there are philosophers, there's whoever else that's out there that wants to make us all better people. What I'm here to do is give you exactly what you want, which are the stories that you recognize, the lyrics that you like, the poetry that you're looking for, and she's delivering. I think right now she's firing on all cylinders.

 MARY: Yeah, I agree and when I talk to my students about the importance of storytelling because I teach storytelling and its place in marketing, these are the kinds of stories that I want my students to come up with, right? And if successful entrepreneurs come up with these kinds of stories, we just had a podcast recently with Chad Price of Kettlebell Kings, and they were making that online community before the athletic communities or the workout communities that we see that are online now. And they were doing that back in 2012. So I think that's… and of course, Taylor has been doing it since day one just about….

 KASIE: Well, let’s talk about that online community growth over Taylor. Because I think it’s so organic. I think that people go to talk about what they're interested in and what they care about. And she's been quoted as saying things like anybody who makes you feel bad for the things that make you happy, that's like the worst kind of person, right? And so instead, she's encouraging this idea that people should come together and talk about things that make them happy and that's the feel, that's the vibe in the Taylor Swift fandom..is this sense of this makes me happy and and sharing it with other people makes me happy. And when other people are happy, I also feel happy. Like there's this tremendous joy in this community, which I think is something unique that we don't see in a lot of other fandoms and I'll be honest to say like, I'm not in a lot of other fandoms. I'm not in the Star Wars fandom. I'm not in, but my kid is in a lot of fandoms and her take on some of them is like there's some purity tests to it, right? Like are you really a Star Wars fan? Do you know this, that, or this, right? But you don't get that from Swifties.  Swifties aren't out there being like how Swiftie are you? Do you know this about that? Do you know this about? Instead they're just like, welcome! What can I share with you that you don’t know?

 MARY: And have a friendship bracelet!

 KASIE: Have a bracelet! Yeah.

 MARY: I love that. Um, is there anything else from a marketing standpoint that you've noticed or that you've even talked about in your classes with that, that our audience should understand about maybe some takeaways that they could take away from Taylor to their own businesses?

 KASIE: Yeah, so marketing is all about channels, right? Figuring out how to reach your customer, how to get the right message in front of them at the right time. So understanding what their buying cycle looks like, giving them, you know, awareness, giving them a reason to make your choice that you want them to make, right. All of these kinds of things. And I think what Taylor does a good job of is using all the channels available to her. So she has her music, obviously, right she's got video appearances. Anytime she's on, you know, interviews or talk shows or anything like that promoting things. She's done her own video content. So if you haven't been to see any of these videos, the short films that she's made to get over these videos, like take yourself down the rabbit hole because it's totally worth it. But then on top of that all the social media channels too, where she's purposely using different social media channels to drop different information and trying to bring all those fans access to her no matter where they are, which I think is a huge marketing lesson for anybody that's doing marketing. Meet your customers where they are, and bring them the messages that they need to be able to choose you and choose your product.

 MARY: Right. And that movie, the Eras movie, that's doing exactly that. We're going to talk a little bit about the economic impact of that a little bit later, but that's doing exactly that.

 KASIE: To meet them where they are, yeah.

 MARY: She's meeting them where they are because not everyone can afford concert tickets or to go to the cities. I mean, we have a lot of rural people in America who love Taylor Swift, right? Not everybody lives in a city. And so she's giving everyone the opportunity to get, you know, the feeling of the tour to be able to experience that in some way in the theaters, which I absolutely love.

 KASIE: I gotta say my favorite reel about the Eras tour movie was the video of her actually watching it. Like, this is the first time Taylor Swift has seen Taylor Swift on tour. You see her in the movie theater, just like, yay! She's as excited as everybody else. And I can't even imagine what that must be like to watch what you've created there live for people to see and enjoy. Well,

 MARY: Well, and I want to point out too that that is not an act. You know, people see through when things like that or an act. The joy that she shares with people is truly her and who she is. I mean, I don't know her… like I haven't met her, but I feel like I have. And that is a great skill for anyone in the public eye to have or anyone who is the face of the company to have because that can transcend not just the music industry or the creative industry, right?

 KASIE: I think the critical word there is authenticity, and especially if you're trying to appeal to Gen Z. Gen Z is so cynical about what they see everywhere. I mean, online and politicians, in person, in the classroom, like Gen Z is so cynical, because they've been so overexposed, right? They've seen so much and authenticity really resonates with them, and they and they pick it out. And I think Taylor Swift just has a gift of being authentic all the time. She is…what you see is what you get. She is who she is right? And um, people will say that. Other celebrities will meet her and talk about or they'll just be like, it's just amazing how kind and gentle she is and how she's just genuinely interested. And whether or not you've enjoyed your experience either at the tour or wherever they are like, it's… people are blown away by her.

 MARY: I think one of the things that show that is the growth in her Instagram following. You know, when we first had this conversation about doing this podcast, I checked her Instagram following and it was at 265 million followers. Just in the past month, it's grown to 276 million followers.

 KASIE: Wow.

 MARY: Yeah, that's a lot of growth.

 KASIE: That's 10 million people jumping on board in the last month.

 MARY: Exactly, exactly.

 KASIE: That’s wild.

 MARY: So I would like to get a look at her Instagram stats because that's… just based on that number, it's gotta be crazy.

 “I promise that you’ll never find another like me…”

 KASIE: There's this great viral version of Taylor, while they're writing this song, and she's sitting on the couch and she sings it, she puts her hand up like that she gets really excited about it, and it's in the writing process. It's well before it's ever been recorded. It's like as she's putting down the lyrics for the first time ever. And I mean, you can't stage that, like it's, it's clearly not staged. It's obviously spontaneous, and her joy in the process and how excited she is when it clicks for her, and then we hear what it turns into right afterwards. But I think that that really resonates with people too. That creative process piece really resonates too.

 MARY: And that's part of the story too, because she's showing behind the scenes of how she does her work. Right. And that draws us in. I get that same feeling. I understand that feeling when she puts her hand up in the air and is like I'm onto something right here.

 KASIE: Yes.

 MARY: Any creative knows that feeling. One of my students the other day, or even this morning, one of my students figured out how to do this great thing for her video. And I did it for her basically I was like, woo hoo, you know, whatever.

 MARY: Yeah, so proud that they have that moment where everything just comes together like that. So I want to shift now to talk about her Eras tour because we've been talking about it a little bit but I want to dive into the economic impact of this thing. Right? Because we had three great tours I think going on this past summer, Beyonce, Pink, and of course Taylor Swift and the economic impact, specifically of Taylor Swift, since she's our topic today, has just been crazy. The overall impact of the tour should be around, and this is the United States part of it, North American part of it, $2.2 billion just in ticket sales, right? That doesn't include the hotels, the merch, the food, all that other stuff.

 KASIE: And don't forget the hospitality tax that everybody's paying, right? So all these cities that have posted or that have had this massive 11% or whatever it is hospitality tax, you know, yuck it up communities, but you're getting all of that too.

 MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So based on research that I found, I believe this was from Time Magazine, maybe… typically every $100 spent on a live performance generates an estimated $300 and ancillary local spending on things like hotels, food, transportation, I forgot transportation a minute ago. But for the Eras tour…That's just a regular tour, right? For the Eras tour, it's anywhere from $1300 to $1500.

 KASIE: Per $100 spent.

 MARY: Per $100 spent.

 KASIE: Nice.

 MARY: Yeah, so that's boosting all of those local economies.

 KASIE: All the restaurants, all the hotels, yeah, all the transportation. So Uber, you know, taxi services. Everybody else. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about the structure of the Eras Tour. So what I think what sparked our first conversation about this was how impressed I am with the way the Eras Tour was built. So usually, and you can watch these videos where they talk about, they break down the economics of a tour. Usually a team will go out on and you'll see the artist kind of zigzagging across the country. They're hitting, you know, sort of regions, maybe but they're basically going all over the map right? And the Eras tour is designed very intentionally right? It was designed years out actually. Where it was okay, we're gonna go to Atlanta, we're going to play for Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday night, and now everybody that was performing those three nights in a row is now off, right Monday through Friday as we travel from one place to the next place. Then we're gonna go to the next town. We're going to set up and we're going to perform Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, right? And so we have these three shows in one place performing three nights back to back, which is like an easy Broadway to schedule, right? Like it's an easy schedule versus like a Broadway schedule, but they're doing it right? And the setup is there on Friday, and it stays up through the whole weekend. And then they bring it down and then they travel on Monday, right? This and they've been very intentional about the cities they've gone to and how they've moved around the country. This has never been done before this particular way or something on this kind of scale. And it's the economy of it. The idea that they're not wasting gas, they're not wasting hours, they're not wasting transportation time. They're not they're not there's no waste here, right, which is so compelling to me.

 MARY: Yeah, let's remind everybody that normally, in how this is different, is that a concert will go to one place for one night, and then pick up and go to the next place for the next night. And so you have all that picking up and moving. And in this particular case, they're saving all of that picking up and moving…that time, that energy the people power, but she employs hundreds of people, if not 1000s…

 KASIE: The jobs are there, right, and you mentioned the economic impact like that's there. It doesn't cost less necessarily except that they are maximizing the economy of being in one space for three days in a row and selling and those shows are selling out all three shows in every place, right? So yeah, I mean, I think from a design perspective, when we talk about an industry in general, entrepreneurship, always, it's about disrupting the industry. So if you take a look at what's happening in our industry, this is very blue ocean strategy stuff. All of you business nerds out there, just Google Blue Ocean Strategy. It'll say like, what are, what is not going well in our industry? What does our industry not do well? And one of the things that music industry does not do well is show to show to show to show, because there's just so much like this venue is not available, that town's not available. We’re using planes. We're using buses. We're all these different things, right? And she really got into a place and said, Look, we're gonna do this well, and in order to do it well we're gonna have to book it several years out, we're gonna have to plan you know, this far ahead. And I want to say they started doing this like 2020 is when she started booking this tour.

 MARY:  Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so and planning of course before that, even before. I mean, she, she probably was thinking about this years ago, because I think she really thinks that far ahead. In her head she does.

 KASIE: More than likely 17 years old. You know what I’m gonna do when I'm 30?

 MARY: Exactly when I'm 30 this is what's gonna happen. Right. Um, we were talking a minute ago about the impact of her re-recording. We all know Scooter Braun bought her masters and Kelly Clarkson tweeted to her redo them, you own the copyright, right? The initial releases, especially her first album sold over like $10 million, 2 million copies, or brought in $10,000,000, 1989 brought in 10 million, but now she's re-releasing those and they're making that much money again if not more in some cases.

 KASIE: The second time around.

 MARY: The second time around. Taylor's version. So unlike other artists who haven't done this, they release it, they release an album and yay, they get all the money and the economic impacts of all you know, all that entails. But now she's doing it round two.

 KASIE: So what's interesting about this and again, like we go back to this concept of Blue Ocean Strategy. What do people in my industry not do well? And one of the things that artists typically don't do well is they don't capitalize on reusability for their songs, right? But streaming services have taught us that people don't they don't need to own the song. They just want to hear the song, right? And so as you look at okay, streaming services, there's all the there… The people who own the master copies are making money on the streaming services, you know, .000001, you know, penny, per play or whatever. Okay, here's all these artists that are like, what am I going to do about that? Like, it's just it is what it is right? And instead, you see Taylor go well, number one, I don't want Scooter Braun making all that money off of me for the streaming services, no matter how much it is. And number two, here's the thing I can do about it, which is I'm going to release a new version of something I know people already love. And this I mean, this feels like something out of the Disney playbook. When you go… Disney's got their animated Beauty and the Beast. They've got their live action, Beauty and the Beast, they've got their Broadway Beauty and the Beast, right? Like they had their TV version of Beauty and the Beast like they took that Beauty and the Beast and they've ran it for whatever it's worth right? And so that's not new necessarily, but the way she's gone about doing it to be able to monetize existing property, things that you already do have possession of, and then find a new way to package it. I think it's just genius.

 MARY: Yeah, and I read also somewhere that because of the Ers tour…  obviously streaming of her music and this happens for all artists but in particular, since we're talking about Taylor Swift… if they if they're having a concert, especially one that's so huge, like this one, right, the streaming of their music goes way up. So then that of course has the other economic impact of raising more money, right? For the artist and for whoever gets a piece of that pie. Right? So I think that's super interesting is that we can't leave that out of the economic impact as well when we talk about that. 

 KASIE: Another one of the channels when we were talking before about channels. So on streaming services like Spotify, you can create your own playlists, right? Some of the most popular playlists are fan created playlists. Taylor's got fan-created playlists that are replacing the original versions with the Taylor's version as they come out. So you're not getting both versions of “Love Story.” As soon as the new version came out, the old one was gone. And so it’s like they're erasing her digitally. They're erasing these old versions digitally. You can still access them. They're still on Spotify. But the fans are saying those aren't the ones we listen to anymore. We only listen to Taylor’s version.

 MARY: And they're on that train. They're on that Taylor train.

 KASIE: They're all bought in.

 MARY: And we're going to only listen to the new stuff that's Taylor's version. That's our stuff. And I think that that circles back around to her marketing and her building that community and the positivity that she puts out there and that her fans kind of feed off of right? You know, one of the things that makes her so inspirational to me is her generosity, right? We've heard the stories of every city that she's been in with the Eras tour. She's donated 1000s and 1000s of dollars. Nobody's disclosed the amount but we know it's a lot to every food bank in the city where she's had a concert. And that, that says a lot because that has its own economic impact… we talked about the financial gain of people buying stuff and going to hotels and restaurants and stuff, but this has another economic impact on those cities.

 KASIE: Yeah, I think so. It wouldn't surprise anybody who's a Taylor Swift fan to know that she's, you know, overseeing some of these decisions that are made at the concert level, right? So we don't know how many of these are Taylor Swift decisions necessarily, but it does feel like it comes from an overall vibe. So if you think of like a corporation having corporate values, what are the corporate values and does this corporation always act within their values? And in Taylor Swift, if Taylor Swift is a corporation, one of the values is generosity. And so where does that generosity manifest itself? And it is of course in charitable donations, it is in economic impact, it is in bonusing your own employees, caring for your own employees, those kinds of things. And so yeah, I don't think it would surprise anybody to know that Taylor Swift is living her values all the time.

 MARY: Right. And it's a great example to other leaders and whatever industry it doesn't matter the industry because you mentioned taking care of her employees. We heard about the bonuses that she gave, not just her truck drivers, but all of her employees. So like $55 million I don't know many people that would take $55 million out of their own pocket and spread it around to people that work for them.

 KASIE: Well, two it speaks to this… So as a Gen X-er are right, like I kind of hate to give it, you know, the millennial credit right? But I think it speaks to this sense in that generation that enough is as good as a feast. And so I don't need $55 million more. You know what I'm saying like, what else is that money going to do for me except just be more money, right? And so I can't take it with me like there's this kind of sense and I will give 100% the millennials the credit for that. They have a sense that enough is as good as a feast. And so when somebody has so much more than they really believe that they need right? We see that with Mr. Beast. There's a lot of these kinds of digital entrepreneurs that are recognizing, hey, I want to take care of myself and my family. But beyond that, I want to take care of all the people around me right? And that generosity, I think is generational.

 MARY: That's the generosity that I wish would permeate throughout all of society.

 KASIE: I think we're gonna see more of it honestly I think and like I said, I'm giving credit to the millennials. They're not all that way, but a lot of the leaders in that generation are and I think Gen Z is going to be the most generous generation we’ve ever seen.

 MARY: I completely agree with that. My students every day… they just impress me so much and surprise me. Speaking of… one of my students is my producer. Isabella, pop in here and show everybody and say hi.

 KASIE: Hi Isabella!

 MARY: She's the one. And for all of our podcast listeners, she's the one that makes this podcast sound so good. So we thank her tremendously. She graduates by the way, she graduates in May and I'm going to hate to lose her but somebody out there is gonna get a really good employee, who's very creative, who's just on top of things. So.

 KASIE: And here's an opportunity for somebody in your ranks that maybe gets to move into Isabella’s spot.

 MARY: Absolutely, absolutely. I love that you pointed that out. We're talking about the economic impact. $4.6 billion to the local economies, according to QuestionPro, is what her tour should be when all is said and done, should have kind of input into local economies.

 KASIE: And remember this isn't in a vacuum, right? This is a community effort. This is all the people who are taylor Swift fans coming forward spending their money, wanting to be part of something that is bigger than themselves, wanting to give their money to the community like wanting to go out to eat, wanting to make it a thing, right? Like all this stuff, so it's not…it is Taylor Swift. It is the tour. It is of course like hey, thank you Taylor, for creating this amazing company. But the key to it is that she's providing something people want, and people are willing to part with their money in order to get that thing and I think that's really critical because she's getting some heat from certain elements of like, how expensive the tickets are and like how much it costs and you mentioned before, because I want to maybe this segues into our conversation about the movie, about people not being able to afford to go and she gets some heat for that. There are people who don't, maybe they don't recognize the experience that is the Taylor Swift Eras tour, so they don't feel like you know, this is just not worth it. Nobody should charge that much. Blah. Blah, blah. Market economics tell us that people will pay the value that they believe it's worth right? And so they're willing to pay this money. That's them being willing to…don’t feel sorry for these ticket buyers, right? They're willing to do that right?

 MARY: They’re choosing.

 KASIE: Exactly it's a choice. She didn't make anybody spend that money on those tickets. And then she put the movie out. And the movie tickets which I love. First of all, the tickets are $19.89 So this is one of those Easter eggs, right? She charged 1989 for her tickets. When the tickets went on tour, we found out first of all, we thought it was only gonna be one night. So as soon as we found out they were going on tour we did not get to see the Eras tour. We fell in the group of people that was like we don't have two grand to go see this right? Not that I would in any way not spend that money if I did. I would 100% spend that money if I had it but anyway, all that to say when the movie was coming out… we’re huge movie people. So Holly and I were super excited. We jump on the app. We're gonna buy the tickets. And when we see it, I just turned it to her like, it's $19.89 and we lost it, like, cackling that she had priced them at 1989. Like, I mean, come on. Come on Tay. 

MARY: Yeah, but it's another one… It’s genius exactly, because it created that feeling in you guys that you are now even more excited because you're like this is right on right on what we expect from her.

KASIE: Oh, it's on brand, like it's fully on brand and it makes you feel like because you get it when you see it's 1989 you're like, oh, I get it. Good job, Taytay, right? Like and then you feel like you're part of this squad because you know this thing that other people don't know. I think the same when we showed up to the actual movie theaters… we're walking in, and everybody's got their bracelets on. People are singing along like nobody's telling you to shhh we’re watching a movie like it's not.. We didn't have one of the big dancy theater ones. I think if we had gone to a later show, maybe but we went to an earlier show. There were some small kids like we kind of… people didn't want to stand up in front of people and not let them be able to see so we just all sat and watched but, man we sang. I mean we definitely sang. 

MARY: And you're not alone. Everybody around the country. So the movie worldwide has grossed over $123 million.I mean, it's just, these numbers are just mind boggling, right? It’s reached $90 million within like the first week I think..it’s crazy, right?

KASIE: Can I tell you where I think this is the only mistake I think Taylor Swift may have made?

MARY: Oh yeah. Let’s talk about that. 

KASIE: Are you ready?

MARY: Because we learn from our mistakes, right?

KASIE: So the Eras tour movie grosses $129 million dollars,can you imagine if they’re had been six versions of that movie? 

MARY: Oh good lord. Yeah. 

KASIE: If she had issued… you never know which version you're gonna get. Remember when clue came out? And there were three things to clue. Yeah. So you went to see it three times because you weren't sure which ending they were going to show in that theater is a thing that needs to be done more often. And with the era's tour movie, she had a chance to do it, especially because there were shows that she recorded where she had played more songs. Like I said, we only got the one song from our favorite album. There were shows where she played more songs from that. So why not get film from a bunch of different shows and piece together three or four or six, but like say you get three, three versions of the error story. And you don't know so you show up like not sure is this going to be the Argentina one? Is this going to be the Indianapolis one? Is it…I don't know which one I'm watching. I'm just watching one of the three Eras movies that may be showing today. Right? Come on, we'd be back. We've got 1989 every time. 

MARY: Right. Dr. Kasie Whitener. That is why I have you on this show. Because you bring up things like that. I love it. I love it. I love it. 

KASIE: It's just a missed opportunity. Just a missed opportunity. It's not a criticism. It's just an opportunity.

MARY: Absolutely. And who knows, maybe she's gonna listen to this podcast and check out that missed opportunity. And if not, maybe somebody else will. 

KASIE: I think we get the world tour. I think she's going to do another movie. It's going to be whatever she does overseas. 

MARY: I think you're probably right about that. If I had to guess as a matter of fact, I also heard that she is also extending some dates after she comes back to the States again. So we'll see if that pans out. I don't know for sure if that's true or not. 

MARY: But now we're coming to my favorite topic of the podcast. And that is the love, the romance…

KASIE: We’re here for it

MARY: You’re right. We're all sitting here. I swear to God after the Buenos Aires video came out and of her changing the lyrics, of her running up to Travis at the end. Literally, I'm watching it from every angle that I could find on everywhere and I'm not alone because there's a gazillion Tik Tokers who are talking about the same thing. And we are all on even as old women…all of us Gen X-ers are loving this. 

KASIE: Yes right here for it. 

MARY: We're here for it. And I know the reason I'm here for it is because I love love. I’ve have always been romantic. But we're here for it and that is turning into some economic impact with the NFL. And with anything related to Travis and Jason Kelce, you know, I mean, right after she showed up at the Chiefs game, their podcast went to number one. 

KASIE: Yep.

MARY:  The sales of his Travis Kelce, his jersey have gone up 400% You know, their song that they just released the brothers Christmas song… number one on iTunes charts even beating Taylor, right, in some places. So that economic impact is spreading beyond just the world of Swifties and spreading to the NFL, and they're eating it up. 

KASIE: So there's two possibilities here right there's the cynical side, which is like this is a publicity stunt. The Kelce brothers organized this… their podcast was launching, their documentaries launching, blah blah blah publicity stunt, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, okay. Fine. If that's the case, there's a publicity stunt. I'm here for it. 

MARY: Me too. 

KASIE: I'm all in, it's fine. It doesn't have to be real. Like I'm into to read the story. Live the story. Love the story. I'm fine with it. It doesn't have to be real. So that's fine. So many haters that are out there. They're like oh, they're just doing it for, you know, for record sales. Okay. Oh, they're just doing it to get more. Okay. I have no problem with it. 

MARY: Whatever. Yeah. Me either. I don't think that's true.

KASIE: By all means, okay. So there's that one side. And again, that's fine. And then the other side is this could be real. Right? And I think that this could be real side is really compelling for a number of reasons of course because through her lyrics, through her songs,  all the sad stories. I just watched her go through all this right and and of course, she gets torn down to the media for two reasons, one for serial dating and then the flip of it is for writing songs about being a serial dater, right. And then it seems like what we're seeing, and again, it could be a publicity stunt. But it seems like what we're seeing is somebody who has a career in his own right has plenty of competence in his own right, feels perfectly good about himself as a human being in his own right, and is glad to share a spotlight with her and it's almost in awe of her and how wonderful she is and that worship that all of us feel for her… when we see him demonstrate it to is gratifying because we think she deserves it. And we think she deserves somebody who believes she deserves it and is not ashamed or unwilling to give it.

MARY: Right exactly. And who’s confident… I think you've hit on it right there… who's confident enough to stand he's, granted I'm not taking anything from Travis, but stand in her shadow a bit and really support her right because she's now a billionaire and not because she's a billionaire. But because she's so creative because she's so talented. She's gotten to that financial place because of her talents. And because of her work ethic, right? 

KASIE: Oh the work ethic, easy. 

MARY: The work ethic is crazy, right? And so which we also aspire to but I don't I don't know about that. 

KASIE: She's a once in a lifetime talent. And I'm perfectly fine with that. 

MARY: Exactly. I want to be Taylor Swift. But the great thing is we can learn from it. Right? And all the NFL is learning from it right now. Right? 

KASIE: I gotta say there's two pieces of that that I think are really brilliant. I know your classes look at digital media… look at digital governorship too and the first one was with the New Heights podcast, watching Travis Kelce watch the video of the couple that had been the Travis Taylor couple. I don't know if you saw this right.

MARY: Yes I did. 

KASIE: So first of all, to back up just a little bit…

MARY: It was Jax and her… putting him on the map…

KASIE: But yeah, so there's a big trend on the internet of women talking about how Taylor Swift put Travis Kelce on the map people you know I don't even watch the NFL but I'll watch it for Taylor Swift like it became this like running joke around women who know better, but are intentionally trapping their husbands into like, you know, oh, I don't even know who this person is. Like, I mean, she made him famous. And these men just like losing their minds, because they're angry. She's not even a thing. It doesn't even matter. Okay, so that piece of it was really funny when the NFL changed their twitter handle to Taylor's version, right and so then you get the mash up of her saying. So now when you see it says Taylor's version it's because I own it. And then they show the NFL thing. This is Taylor's version. Taylor owns the NFL, like, like all of this was really great publicity for the NFL. Really great publicity for Taylor Swift and for Travis Kelce. And I think again, even if it is a publicity stunt, I'm here for it because it was clever. It was new, it felt fresh and it felt real and authentic. And then the other part was, of course, like I said with the Halloween costume.

Jax is talking about her putting him on the map. And he just falls for it, the boyfriend supposedly falls for it And he’s like. Oh, come on. He actually puts his face on the map. And then Travis is watching and he goes oh, I get it. She put me on the map. That's pretty funny. Like he's in on a joke. It's okay with him. He's not feeling ashamed, but he's not wanting to hide it and pull it off. He's not throwing a temper tantrum about it. And that just shows this like grown up man behaving like a grown-up man. And I think I want to be here for that too. I want to see more of that on the internet. 

MARY: We could have a whole nother podcast about just the romance and how Travis is a grown up man and the right person or the right type of person for her. They have the same energy. I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but they have the same energy. He matches her energy. If you saw the video of him at the Buenos Aires concert on his off week, he was cheering her on just like she was cheering him on at the game she went to right. 

KASIEL Yeah, well you see videos of him when she's not even around. Like Travis just being Travis is that way. There's a kind of like goof factor to it. There's a kind of so much confidence and who they are and how they are. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. This is good. And again, this is a love story. We're all here for it. We want the best thing for both of them either, of course like nobody's over here going. If they break up, we're gonna be pissed at them. It's not like that, everyone’s like along for the ride. We're just glad to see two people who we all believe deserve happily ever after maybe maybe seeking one. 

MARY: Yeah, now we can't ignore the... I don't want to go down this rabbit hole but we can't ignore the people who are the naysayers and I just ignore… I mean, we can't ignore them. That's the way I should have said that. We can't ignore them and I do ignore them. Because like you said, the whole marketing, everything is brilliant about it. And just to talk a little bit to remind some of our viewers or listeners about the impact it's had on the NFL, not just the ticket jersey. The Jersey sales but ticket sales to actual games have gone up. Where people, the Chiefs games in particular, or even the Eagles games where people thought Taylor might be at the Eagles game. A few weeks ago those ticket sales went up and of course ESPN and the viewing viewership on TV went up as well, which of course, increases financial gains there for ESPN and NFL both. Right? Yeah. 

KASIE: So it's just a good thing all around. And I think for the haters that are out there, either sick of it or they don't know anything about it or they don't care about it. They don't want to talk about it, all of that, you know, it goes back to what Taylor said about if somebody is gonna make you feel bad about the thing that gets you excited, then that's just the worst kind of person. Like, why would you make people feel bad for the thing that gets them excited? It makes them happy, like, just let them be happy. You know, like, I just, yeah, just…

MARY: That's why all of us are drawn to her because of that mentality. Right? And, and we know that she's been through it. And to come out and to see the happiness on her face right now. Just the joy and the… she's at peace right now. Right? She's loving everything that she's doing. And then when she's with Travis it's just great. I could just talk about it forever. 

KASIE: But I'm here for it.

MARY: I know we've gone down a rabbit hole a little bit. For our listeners and our viewers. Hopefully you've come along right along with us. But we also have given some golden nuggets here in this podcast, some Easter eggs if you will, not as clever as Taylor has done them. But things that you can take with you. Take away. Always look, I tell my students all the time, look for the blueprint in your story. Look for the blueprint that people can take with them into their lives. And we try to do that with this podcast every episode that we have, and talking to people about their stories and having conversations like we are with Dr. Kasie Whitener here.

And so there are things that you can take and apply to your business or figure out how to apply to your business or your entrepreneurial venture whatever wherever and whatever stage you're in, right?

KASIE: I think the most useful thing is, it's a climb. I mean, it's a climb. Taylor Swift didn't wake up at 17. And have an impact of billions of dollars, you know, on global markets. That's not how things worked out, but she's been working. She had a vision for what she wanted to do, for how she wanted her career to go. When she left country music, she wanted to sing her own songs. That was a huge risk. I remember being in a conversation with my brother, uh, when she left when she decided to walk away from her label and country music because she wanted to sing her own songs and he was like she's gonna fail and I was like, I don't know, I wouldn't bet against her. I'll be honest with you. I wouldn't bet against Taylor Swift. And here she is, you know, having rewritten the rules in her own industry to fit things the way she wants it to work. And she and she gets knocked down. She just gets back up again. I mean, things that should… if you think of the Kanye…I mean, it's humiliation, basically, public and professional humiliation. And she just came right back. Right? And so, and I know that's not.. I say that she came right back making it sound like it's easy. 

MARY: It took two years for her to…

KASIE: And the way she wrote about it and the way she talked about it. The way she processed it and brought us all along for that journey too because who she is as a songwriter. You know when we see all of that I think that's why we want such good things for her now. If you know her through her music that well then you go okay, we're at the climax of the story now, right, where all the things are supposed to be working out the way they're supposed to work out. And I want to see the beautiful things happening for her. 

MARY: So yeah, oh, I love that. I do want to circle back around to the idea of bringing people along with you. Because one of the two things she's done recently that I think we all should point out is that she's used the status that she has to help. I mean, obviously, we talked about philanthropic ventures and things like that, but in her contract with Universal and in her contract, she made them agree to give more artists more percentage of their streaming rights, you know that you get paid so much for every time you stream, it’'s pennies on the dollar, right, right. But in that negotiation process, she got Universal to give all of their clients, all of their musicians, all of their bands, singers, everybody, more percentage from their streaming rights. That's huge. Because they knew what they would lose. 

KASIE: Yeah, exactly. It’s industry leadership but saying I have a position of power and I'm gonna use it to lead the industry and I think that's a very mature place for her to be. It was mature for her to walk away from country music when she was however old, you know, in her 20s. But this is a really mature thing for her to do this late in her career, even to say I'm an industry leader, I have industry power, and I'm going to use that power to improve the lives of all of my fellow workers.I mean, you don't need a union when you've got somebody in a powerful position that willing to work for you. Right? 

MARY: And willing to work for you is the key thing there. And then the same thing with the Eras tour and the movie, right? She bypassed the studios to get it out to the theaters because the studios wanted to take a higher percentage than she knew that she would be able to get if she just dealt directly with theaters. I

KASIE: I love how aware we are of the inner workings of Hollywood and movie theaters now, because of Taylor Swift. Like I love the visibility that we now all have to the system and where everybody takes their cut, because Taylor Swift was very clear about I'm doing it this way and here's why. And I think that if you're in an industry where somebody that powerful is calling you out for doing the wrong thing, or for behaving in the wrong way, you got to take a look at yourself and be like, Okay, our business model just got called out for being shady and we need to figure out a way to… and you just have to compete. I think that's the biggest part is like we see industries where competition has been driven out by bad practices, you know, just just bad practices. And when you have somebody like Taylor Swift come in and say we're just not going to do things that way. You have to compete. And I think sometimes companies get a little bit slack, a little bit lazy, they start taking things for granted, and they get caught blindsided and they're bad about it, and they'll say terrible things about it. But at the end of the day, if you're not competing, you're not winning in your market. You know, you got nobody to blame but yourself.

 

MARY: I think we could drop the mic on that one. Because that's true, right? Yeah. Dr. Kasie Whitener and my friend, thank you so much for joining me. This has been a great conversation. We could talk about this for hours, but she has to go pick up her little Swiftie, her daughter. Kasie, thanks so much.

 

KASIE: Thank you so much for having me, Mary. And anytime you want to talk entrepreneurship, I'm your gal. And if you add Taylor Swift, I’m here for it, I'm absolutely here for it.

 

MARY: We love it. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

 

MARY: All right, Class E Podcast listeners, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember that  this is the podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is produced by our student producer Isabella Martinez, who you got to see in this podcast episode. By the way, remember that you can find us wherever you listen to your podcast, and on YouTube as well. So please subscribe, hit those subscribe buttons wherever is most convenient for you. But until next time, everybody take a page out of Taylor's book and dream big.

 

 

 

Join us in this inspiring episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the transformative journey of Jennifer Jones, the founder of Beauty Marks for Girls, a nonprofit mentoring program for girls whose mothers are incarcerated. Jennifer shares her personal story, the origins of Beauty Marks for Girls, and the profound impact it has on the lives of young girls facing similar challenges. From vulnerability and forgiveness to the power of empathy, Jennifer's insights and experiences offer valuable lessons for all. Tune in to discover how one woman turned her pain into power and is now empowering the next generation of resilient young women.

 

Guest website: https://beautymarks4girls.com/

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez '24

 

Transcript of the Show

MARY: Hi, everyone, welcome to the Class E Podcast. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. This is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communications Studies Department here at Furman University. This week I've been so excited all this week for this guest because you are going to be excited after you hear this conversation. You will want to.. don't walk, you will want to run to an event where she is listed as the speaker and after we have this conversation, you're gonna know exactly why I said that. Jennifer Jones, welcome to the show.

 JENNIFER: Thank you Mary for having me. I'm excited.

 MARY: Yeah. I'm excited for you to be here because Jennifer did a speech at one of the women's events that I went to. What was it last spring or something like that? Yeah. And I was just sitting in the audience and I was…I probably shouldn't admit this, but I was just crying. Because I was so touched and so inspired by her story. So I wanted to have her on to, you know, do the same for you guys. Right? So Jennifer, let's talk a little bit about your story. You've started a nonprofit, we're gonna get to that. But you had a lot, of course, leading up to that and were really motivated to start it in the first place. Can you tell us a little bit about your personal story?

 JENNIFER: So Beauty Marks for Girls…It did derive from a lived experience. We mentor girls whose mothers are incarcerated in South Carolina. And so I wanted to make sure that no young lady has to experience the pain of living with an incarcerated mother by herself. I am the daughter of a formerly incarcerated mother, who really has turned my pain into my power.

 MARY: Yeah. I love that.

 JENNIFER: And I plan to do the same for the young ladies throughout our program. So parental incarceration, I like to say that it hurts, but still in those broken areas, you can find that is where your power lies. Normally I’m asked about Beauty Marks, where do we get that name from? And that's what it means… Every scar tells a story. And those stories not only deserve, Mary, to be told, but they deserve to be heard.

 MARY: Oh absolutely. And telling and hearing are two different things.

 JENNIFER: Absolutely.

 MARY: So you overcame some of the hardships that you experienced and you graduated from Columbia with a Fine Arts degree.

 JENNIFER: That’s right. Columbia College.

 MARY: Yeah, yeah. So tell us how you kind of have parlayed that into Beauty Marks for Girls.

 JENNIFER: I think it's beautiful that it just, it matched perfectly for me because when I entered into college, arts was something that I wanted to focus on and what it did for me, the arts, was it allowed me to have this blank canvas, right? So Jennifer you can create whatever it is, no matter what you're going through, this is your canvas. So it was an outlet for me. I like to say that education saved my life, because it allowed me to use my pain as a way… as an outlet to grow not just personally but also from an impactful way throughout the state. So yeah.

 MARY: I love the idea of the blank canvas really being a symbol for what these girls are working with in your organization because their lives are blank canvases right now and they may not realize it, right? But you guys help them with that.

 JENNIFER: That’s it. That’s the beauty behind it is we're not telling them what to paint, but we're telling them here, here’s the tools. No matter what you're going through, you can create something beautiful. It’s the mastery for them using the paint brushes and the colors that they are given. And parental incarceration, like I said, is something we don't talk a lot about Mary. But what I have found is that when you create those spaces for these young ladies, they grow… they have the sense of belonging, their self esteem is built and they know that they are not defined or withdrawn from having a successful life. But we're here to help them along the course.

 MARY: Yeah, and a lot of times they don't see that they can have a successful life. Because what they see is the trouble that their parents have gotten into or their mother has gotten into, and especially for girls, especially at some of these, you know middle school ages and even elementary school even earlier than that, they are super impressionable, obviously, and they need that special connection between their mom and if they're not allowed to have it, that's a big piece of their development that's missing.

 JENNIFER: Absolutely. Perfect example - that first crush, right, in middle school. Or that first breakup, which I just experienced last week with a young lady and you know, typically we run and we tell our moms and our moms are there to embrace. What happens when that mom is not there? Girls tend to internalize, you know, what it is but I'm grateful that we have developed an ecosystem where they can pick up the phone and say, “hey, Miss Jen.” Well, they don't even have to say “hey, Miss Jen.” They may start off just crying.

 MARY: Right, right. And you're gonna know by the tone of their voice exactly that something's up.

 JENNIFER: That's it. And I say and I pause, “let me know when you're ready.” So they have that outlet. Yeah, that's important.

 MARY: I love that. So you're not only providing the outlet and the network and the space. How exactly does the program work, like you guys meet weekly, or how does that work?

 JENNIFER: Yes, so we are a year round mentorship program. So that is a part of our ecosystem. Every girl is partnered with a mentor and I like to say they're the trailblazers - our mentors are because they're creating this path that they may have never been exposed to if they didn't show up. So we meet with the girls on a monthly basis, but mentors do a “hey girl hey” check in and that's a call-in every month, twice a month, which is great. And that can be anything, Mary, from “hey, let's just go and grab some ice cream”, or I found this quote and I wanted to share it with you today. So that mentor really stands in the gap as the locomotive really to our organization.

 MARY: You are so creative. I love the hey girl, hey, well, that's why you were a fine arts major. Hey, girl, hey, and all the other things that you're creating for these girls. It just spurns out of your creativity and your heart and your soul I think.

 JENNIFER: It really does. And again, I look back to my connection with the arts. I have to be honest and share a little bit of my testimony…I knew when my mom was incarcerated, right, there were two options for me: it was either going to be quote on quote the streets or education. And I'm so grateful that I chose education. Now when I went to college… with the administrator like “hey, what are you gonna major in?” I was like “I have no idea” because I knew in college I was going to have a roof over my head, right? And I was gonna get meals a day. And it just goes to show that your pathway, you may not understand it in the very beginning, but keep walking. So not only that, I went to a women's college, one who would have ever known that I would be leading a women's, you know, organization. I started in prison, actually was called into the prison system and I taught two years there for rehabilitation for women - how to get to the root issue of what's going on. And then again, it just, it just transpired. So your pain is usually a dictation…it’s giving a little bit of a leeway of what you're built to do in the future. So don't dismiss it.

 MARY: Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's great advice. Don't dismiss it and that can be applied to entrepreneurs to innovative thinkers, to anybody, young girls, young boys, anybody. I do want to talk a little bit about your volunteering at the correctional facility. What kinds of things did you learn from that experience that kind of helped you now?

JENNIFER: Wow, that's a powerful, powerful question. The last thing I wanted to do was to go back into a correctional facility. But someone very dear to my heart, one of my mentors, actually my pastor, Pastor Wendell Jones, he said, “you know that you're healed in an area when you can go back to that place and you're not broken in that area.” That's when you know that you've hit a healing place. So what was mine gonna be? I had to go back to the correctional facility and that session was only supposed to be maybe like, two weeks. It turned into two years. I fell in love with vulnerability and community and that I was having an impact that was greater than me. And so that was my way to healing…was to give back and to ask mothers. That was the common denominator for moms…serving anywhere from a year to life in prison and to hear their stories and for them to say “Miss Jen, if I could turn back the hands of time or Miss Jen, if you can show up for my daughter's graduation on my behalf..” It's bigger than me. And so I was able to encourage them and heal at the same time. How divine is that? 

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. As a matter of fact, you saw me do it and the camera saw maybe too I don't know, but those of you who are listening, go to YouTube and watch that part. I caught my breath when you said that… that you are healed if you can go back to the place where you were broken…

JENNIFER: Absolutely. Yeah. And you do not have that animosity or your strength and that's Beauty Marks. Every scar tells a story and we don't look at those scars as shame, but they're now badges of honor where I can tell my stories to the ladies and it was relatability, like wow, this young lady has taken time out of her day and she's going through something very similar as I am but we turn pain into power those young ladies. Funny, funny stories and… real quick Mary to a birthday event. And my very first mentee at the prison at Lee’s Correctional was there at the birthday event. Very first mentee in 2016.

 MARY: Full circle.

JENNIFER: Full circle and she hugged me. And it was one of those full circle moments for her and she just poured her heart out like “thank you. You showed up when no one else understood. You didn't pass judgment on me.” Now she is a business owner doing well. I mean, it's amazing. It's amazing.

MARY: Yeah. That gave me goosebumps when you said that because I love full circle moments like that. And we never know. I truly believe this. We never know what impact we have on somebody. A lot of times we go through life and never know but you had the look, I would say, of being able to experience that and know the impact that you had on her and you know you're on the right path.

JENNIFER: And sometimes you don’t recognize it…in that very moment, the seeds that, you know, that you're planting and that's how seeds work. You have to organically, right, you have to allow them to grow. And yeah, it was powerful. Yeah, that was a powerful moment. 

MARY: I love that. I love that. I want to talk about failure just a little bit because these girls have experienced failure, right? and they may… and failure comes with a lot of negative connotations. Right? And I know that entrepreneurs and innovators think of failure as a positive thing most of the time as this is something we're going to overcome. We're going to learn from it. How do you incorporate that and teach the girls that?

JENNIFER: Yeah, great question. We have a saying that obstacles… We look at obstacles as opportunities. You know, this is an opportunity for you to grow. This is the opportunity for you to learn something or maybe just pause for a moment and say maybe how do I need to pivot this? So we look at obstacles because failure is going to come and so that encouragement I think… also surrounding yourself with people who understand and have pivoted their way out of failure. That's important as well.

MARY: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the girls can learn from that. And speaking of that, how do you find the mentors to pair up with the girls?

JENNIFER: Yes, yes, great question. We typically try very hard to match our girls with whatever pursuit like career suit. Like we had a young lady who wants to be a nurse. So we made sure that we found someone in the nursing field. That can be just from networking, events, presentations, just doing a call to action, and the community's response..I can't describe it. It has blown me completely away. People see the need… people connect somewhere in the search, you know, in the story no matter if you had a parent incarcerated or not. We all… we’re not immune to pain. Somebody somewhere is going through something and so to see individuals you know, executive directors say, hey, I don't have that much time, but I want to give two or three hours to mentor throughout the month. So it's been amazing.

MARY: Yeah, I love that. What has been kind of..I know the whole thing has been rewarding because when you hear Jennifer talk about this, it's just, but what has been the most rewarding thing for you in this journey? Because I know the journey hasn't been easy.

JENNIFER: That's a great question. Come on Mary with all the great questions today. I love it. Wow. So I set… our huge initiative is to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. As I spoke of earlier, my mom was incarcerated when I was in college, and so to drop a young lady off, and to help her get settled in… the first day of her day of college, I didn't have that, right? I was by myself. And I’m gracious you know, my brother, I had the bags on my back and it was pretty much good luck. Hope this works out. 

MARY: That’s kind of how I was. 

JENNIFER: Hey, that's my story. But, to have a group and people… we actually paid for the U haul. We drove her down there. We hugged her, we said our goodbyes. That was a pivotal moment for me and I wept. I held it together, right, that day but I got in my car and I was like wow and it made the saying come to mind, the goal is not to live forever, Jen, but it is to create something that will live past you.” And I knew that that was my purpose. That was why, in a sense, I was placed here on this earth… to mentor and to make sure that girls never have to experience what I had to do alone.

MARY: And this… the lives that you are touching that is your legacy.

JENNIFER: That is my legacy. That is my legacy.

MARY: Speaking of legacies, you have children. Two children. Am I right in that? 

JENNIFER: I do. 

MARY: Yeah. So let's talk about them and how them watching you is affecting them and kind of importing to them the things that you feel are important in life.

JENNIFER: That's so good. That's so good. That's my heart. Right? So when I live on the outside, I live on the inside and Harmony Rose is a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. To be honest, she actually plans events better than me, but don't tell her I said that. 

MARY: She’s going to know if she listens to the podcast. 

JENNIFER: But she is so excited. 

MARY: And how old is she? 

JENNIFER: So Harmony is eight. 

MARY: Eight. That’s what I thought. She’s still pretty young. 

JENNIFER: She's pretty young and she's excited. She has a heart for philanthropy. She picks out the girls’… because we provide care baskets every single month. So she goes to Walmart with me and she says, “Okay, remember mom, Jenesis didn't like that color last time or Eden, this is what she would love.” She does play dates because our girls are as young as eight years old in our program, who are missing a mom and she understands that and so she's a beacon of love, light… the girls in our program…they hug on her, she embraces them. It's a huge family. And so for her to see mom in action, that's a part of my legacy as well.

MARY: Yeah. For sure. This has not been an easy road. It's not easy to start a nonprofit. And so what are some of the roadblocks that you encountered that you had to overcome? And…one, getting people to buy into your vision of what this is and how big it could be and how important it would be, but two, the funding, which nonprofits always have kind of an issue with sometimes.

JENNIFER: Absolutely. So we launched Beauty Marks for Girls in 2019 as we know the pandemic hit the following year. So I'm like hmmm, I’m supposed to start a nonprofit with no profit, how exactly does that work?

MARY: And everybody's on lockdown and can't see the girls.

JENNIFER: Exactly, exactly. So the great thing about that…in 2018, I started with maybe around $17 so that’s my story. It was and I bootstrapped right? So I stood in front of Walmart, I started this from the ground up. I'm appreciative from starting from the ground up because now I can share with others, share with other entrepreneurs what to do, what not to do. That was my path that I had to take. The great thing is by 2023, I would say that we were a six figure nonprofit organization. 

MARY: Wow, that's huge.

JENNIFER: Starting from $17 to that and it was just learning…

MARY: That’s four years…

JENNIFER: That was four years of growth and it was the community and telling the stories. For instance, our gala that we had, we didn't bring any keynote speakers very to our gala. Our girls told their stories, and they did in such an organic way. And that was the goal. I wanted the community to hear what these young ladies… what it feels like to truly walk in their shoes, having a mom incarcerated for the next 10 years, and you're only 11. What does that feel like? And so like I said, I would, I would say the financial part of it is always going to be a challenge. The funny thing, the funny challenge I like to always bring up is that a lot of the milestones that we had planned for maybe five or so years to do, we were doing it two years or three years. And while some like what's the problem with that? That's super exciting. It presents this challenge because your team now says “well, what's next?” And as the leader, you have to be vulnerable and say, “I don't know. I don't know.” And so that presented a challenge for me constantly being innovative. And just to bring up GVL Starts…that was one of my… I like to say I had kind of like writer's block or creative block because I was pushing out all of these programs. They weren't effective. And I came to that roadblock like what do we do next? And so I linked up with Brian Davis at GVL Starts and that really, I would say helped me to get my mojo back. Right and everybody was like, okay, team was like “Jen’s back.” We pushed out a mental health and wellness program out at that time that is exclusively for girls who have a mother incarcerated and it is right now voted the number one among our girls… the number one program Beauty Marks for Girls has offered.

MARY: Yeah, that's good. Because that's a component, right, that we all need, especially in this day and age. I was gonna circle around to Greenville Starts, but you jumped right in there. And I went through Greenville Starts within the first cohort because I have a production company but see if you found what I found… that just the community, I mean, you know, put the speakers aside and educators beside who they bring in because they bring in somebody every day and every time you go… just the community of the entrepreneurs helps because everybody's in that innovative mindset and they're all thinking outside of the box and they're… not just for themselves but for you too. So I found those conversations almost to be as beneficial or maybe more beneficial sometimes than some of the educational components that were planned for us. Not that they weren’t because they certainly were, but…

JENNIFER: You stated it perfectly. That was the missing link when I was going kind of through that writer's block, that was the missing link. I was not surrounding myself with other innovators…. like minded innovators who were just as wide-eyed and willing to take the risks. But when we linked hands, as sweaty as they were because we were all nervous, I found that was the best thing for me. Yeah, it was that you can't do it without community. You can't. So that changed our life. Greenville Starts.

MARY: How has that helped you even, I mean, I think you were in the last year’s fall cohort, is that right? 

JENNIFER: Yes.

MARY: Yeah, so a year almost since then. What kind of changes in addition to the mental health component that you've incorporated for the girls…what other, what other ways did that help you open your eyes to some things that maybe you needed to do or overcome some things. 

JENNIFER: It was beautiful. I don't know if you know or not, but we actually walked away with the title last year. 

MARY: Yes. you did. 

JENNIFER: So, we, Beauty Marks for Girls, we won top pitch, $5,000. And that was our seed fund to start the mental health and wellness program. So we took that seed and took that check in and our young…all they saw was zeros, right? So they didn't know how much it was.  But it was an opportunity for me to say “hey, you can do whatever you set your mind, and you work hard to do. And that was beautiful. So it… again, it helped us to launch our mental health and wellness program which we're going into our second year and now, not only that, but the network of connections that I have made from one, that actually lended a partnership with the Department of Corrections from the cohort. So that right there, that means that we can do more in the prison systems, more families are served. And again, the backing from Furman University and so many other organizations, just has been absolutely incredible.

MARY: How many girls do you have right now?

JENNIFER: So we have fourteen total across five different counties. And then we have three girls who are in college full time on full ride scholarships.

MARY: Oh, that's amazing.

 JENNIFER: That's our goal. Our second is to again… to help send a minimum of 50 girls off to college within the next seven to ten years. And we've already sent three on full ride scholarships.

MARY: You’re well on the way. Well on the way. I was going to ask you, what's next for Beauty Marks for Girls? What do you have cooking in the coffers that you're thinking about rolling out? That you can share with us. 

JENNIFER: Okay, you know, I'm excited. I'm so excited. I will say what's in the work right now is that we are trying to turn our mental health program into an application. So it’s a platform. 

MARY: Oh yes. Fabulous. 

JENNIFER: So this is an app exclusively, again, for girls whose moms are incarcerated… so it can be a young lady who is in Greenville or she can be in Southern California. It's not going to matter if she's going through the hurts and pains of parental incarceration, she can log in…it’s a safe haven and they can see exactly what we're doing here. So we’ll have workshops there, guided meditation. So, it's an application that girls all over the nation can join in on.

MARY: So they have it in their pockets at all times. 

JENNIFER: Absolutely.

MARY: I love that.

JENNIFER: So, some of the forums will be what to do the first 24 hours that your mom is incarcerated. So that app is out there where they can log in and meet the students who we have here in South Carolina and again, build that community.

MARY: I love that. 

JENNIFER: I’m so excited. You know I’m excited. 

MARY: Yeah, I love that next step. So your vision is to go nationwide? 

JENNIFER: It is. Absolutely. And globally, ultimately.

MARY: I love it. Because we have so many moms that have been incarcerated. They're leaving their kids. 

JENNIFER: Yes. Absolutely.

MARY: And a lot of times…say that number again.

JENNIFER: I would say 2.5 right now… 2.5 children have been affected by parental incarceration. Only 2% of children who have a mother incarcerated, based on statistics, will graduate from college. So I'm a part of that 2% and my goal is to disrupt that statistic…girl by girl day by day.

MARY: Yeah, yeah. I love it. Disrupt that statistic. You have to probably have kind of a, well I know you have several like visions and things that motivate you or whatever, but do you have an entrepreneurial kind of philosophy that you would share with other entrepreneurs that maybe they're like, oh, that's okay, I get something now. 

JENNIFER: Yeah. I would say take care of yourself. From a personal…as much as we want and need your product or innovation, we need you well, so that would be number one because that creativity will flow when you're self care. I would say that that definitely is number one and mental health. The second thing I would probably state to encourage other entrepreneurs is it's okay to pivot. It's okay. It's okay to pivot as I was vulnerable with my team, I didn't know what to do. Okay? At that point, you have to be vulnerable. As you know, that's my stance… vulnerability is the pathway to creativity and connection. 

MARY: Absolutely. I completely agree. 

JENNIFER: That's it. That's it and don't… definitely don't give up. Don't give up. There were so many days that I was like, this is not working. I don't have the money. Going from $17… You don't really know what you're doing at the beginning. But the resiliency that's going to be pushed out of you will live past you, but you do have to see it to the end. Discipline right? Discipline is freedom. You have to be disciplined as an entrepreneur. And I like to also say because I come from corporate America, the same type of motivation and hard work and discipline that you put within someone else's company, it needs to be to a second level for your own. 

MARY: Oh, yes, absolutely.

JENNIFER: It needs to be to a second level and continue to elevate and to amplify your voice and take up space. Yeah, don't be afraid to do that 

MARY: I love that. I love that. If you could give one piece of advice to the girls, what piece of advice would you give them? Because everything is so individual…

JENNIFER: It is. And our program is really tailored to what the young ladies need. If I could give some advice, I would say to learn the power of empathy and forgiveness. It came to a point that before I could go to the next level, I had to have that tough conversation with my mom, right? So I had to forgive and I had to empathize with her. Now my mom is celebrating over 10 years of sobriety and she's a part of Beauty Marks for Girls. We actually named our scholarship after my mom. So I would say lead with empathy and the power within that is to learn to forgive and live to the best of your ability and not hold grudges. Live out loud. Don't be afraid to soar. Yeah.

MARY: Yeah, I think that's great advice for anybody, not just the girls, but everybody listening. Right? Everybody listening.

MARY: What do you need?

JENNIFER: So right now, my goal is to continue to build relationships. So… mentors…we are in need of mentors, mental health ambassadors. You don't have to have a clinical or a form of degree to help a young lady who just needs a shoulder to cry on. We need a lot of hands who need to show up at events, our mental health as I spoke to our app that we're getting ready, you know, just maybe some technical assistance and where to start. That's something that we are definitely looking into. Board of directors, we're always looking to engage with board of directors to help with the health and, you know, the future of Beauty Marks for Girls. So I would say that's number one. Always financial support is going to be something.. I say that a nonprofit is as strong as the community that holds it up. When you see nonprofits, not here, it's usually a funding, right? I've seen great founders walk away from organizations and great work, great causes, but the funding isn't there. So to continue to have this impact that we're having in the state of South Carolina we need that support, that financial support, and it doesn't have to be always a dollar amount to it Mary. If you have a restaurant and say, hey, I want to, you know, bring your girls in to have lunch for after school. That's giving back. Everyone can do something in the philanthropic world. So yeah, so yeah, I would say that.

MARY: Jennifer, I love that. How can people get in touch with you to perhaps give in those ways or become a mentor?

JENNIFER: I would love to speak more with you. You can reach us at Beauty Marks, the number four, girls.com. That's B, E, A, U, T, Y, M, A, R, K, S, the number four, girls.com. We're also on social media so you can find us on Instagram. Please follow, please like so we can spread the message of what we're doing to have a greater impact. Linked in as well as Facebook. So yeah. 

MARY: And you know what? Even if you can't, you know, donate right now or even if you can't, you know,  don't have the time to be a mentor, whatever the case is, you can go on social media and comment and share and bolster because that engagement is so important to spread the word right? Because social media is a huge network and in order for that network to grow, we have to engage. 

JENNIFER: Very true. One of our biggest, I would say stakeholders, right now they're in Brooklyn, New York. 

MARY: Yeah. 

JENNIFER: So like how they found us? I'm not sure, but it was because someone you know, saw the needs, saw the cause connected us. So like you stated it’s just as vital, social media.

MARY: All right, Jennifer, I'm gonna give you a last word. Anything else you want to make sure that our viewers know about you or Beauty Marks For Girls or entrepreneurship or innovation?

JENNIFER: Yes. First of all, thank you Mary. I want to end by saying thank you so much. This is like family to me you all, Furman University, GVL Starts. Pau, Kelly, Brian Davis, everyone I just want to say thank you for that. We are stronger together. 

MARY: Absolutely. 

JENNIFER: And so I would say last words is don't be afraid to live out loud. Don't be afraid to live out loud. And that your the hardest parts of your testimony could be the roadmap and the blueprint to save another life. So yeah, don't forget that… the power within you.

 MARY:  Yeah, yeah, that just made me go whew. I love it. See this is why you should go listen to her speak. Like I said…don't walk, run to sign up for whatever, wherever you’re speaking. 

JENNIFER: We go deep. We go deep. You will not walk out the same. You will not walk out the same. 

MARY: That is so true. 

JENNIFER: Yep. 

MARY: Jennifer, thank you so much. 

JENNIFER: Pleasure.

 MARY: I can't wait until I see you again. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember, if you or someone you know has an idea for a nonprofit or a business venture, then Greenville Starts is here to help you do that. So just Google Greenville Starts Furman and it should be the very first thing that pops up on your Google search and get yourself into one of those cohorts that are coming up. But it makes a huge difference as Jennifer has shared with us, other guests have shared with us. So make sure you go do that. This is the podcast that is brought to you through the partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is a true example of the Furman Advantage because we are produced by student producer, Isabella Martinez. And so she creates these rundowns for us and she creates these questions and she researches the guests and then she edits these things together. So please give her some kudos if you see her interacting online because she does a heck of a job. The other thing I want to remind everybody is that you can now watch us on YouTube as well. So of course we're wherever you get your podcasts and we're on YouTube, but hit that subscribe button so that you are notified whenever we have a new episode out which is about every other week. All right. But that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgilll. Until next time everybody, dream big.

 

 

 

 

 

Our well-being is important to maintain in our lives, and different companies can help us with that. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chad Price, an international business consultant and entrepreneur with several successful wellness ventures. Price shares the knowledge he’s acquired throughout his entrepreneurial journey from his exercise equipment company, Kettlebell Kings, to his most recent venture, Life Grows Green, a lifestyle brand focused on natural and hemp products. Price also discusses how entrepreneurs in any industry should always be equipped for battle because they never know what hurdles they may face.

 

Guest: Chad Price

Webistes: 

https://www.kettlebellkings.com

https://lifegrowsgreen.com

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez '24

TRANSCRIPT

MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host Mary Sturgill and this is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship here at Furman University and the Communication Studies Department. Today we have a very special guest, Chad Price is with us. He is the founder of Kettlebell Kings and multiple ventures, which we're going to jump into and talk about. Chad, welcome to the show.

CHAD: Hi, nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

MARY: Yeah, thank you. So I want to start by talking about… kind of going way back to your childhood, and I want to find out…where did your entrepreneurial spirit come from?

 

CHAD: You know, I think it's interesting. I had to really kind of dig on to that question when I was writing my book recently. And trying to figure out, you know, when was the first time that I really kind of thought about being an entrepreneur and I don't know if it was ever, you know, a one kind of light bulb moment in my head.I think it was just, I've been kind of light bulb moment in my head. I think it was just, I've been on so many teams growing up playing sports that I always knew I wanted to be or create, you know, some type of business operation that I respected like the teams I participated in. So, you know, some type of successful operation, a group of individuals that got together and you know, achieve something bigger than themselves. That's kind of always been my dream. When I graduated college, I, you know, I think it was just like anybody else. I went into the corporate America and tried to find different jobs and different experiences that I thought would maybe fulfill that need and in that process, it kinda led me to realizing that, you know, this wasn't the exact experience I was looking for and if I really wanted that type of experience I'd have to create it myself 

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned you played football at Rice and you got a business degree while you were there. It was a few years after that though that you started Kettlebell Kings with I believe a couple of your teammates?

CHAD: Yeah, so one of my teammates, one is a friend of a teammate. So kind of, you know, small circle. And when we started Kettlebell Kings, it was more for us. We knew we wanted to start a business in general.

MARY: Yeah.

CHAD: And we knew it's gonna be something e-commerce. We had kind of been doing our research and at the time I was working a corporate job. So, you know, in my free time, I was researching and trying to figure out if I was gonna start a company, what type of company would it be? And at the time there was really no cool brand around Kettlebells. And so, we wanted to kind of build like a network or community of people who use the kettlebell as a tool for health and wellness, but more of a fitness or enthusiast type of community, an overall health and wellness community just using that kind of as a centerpiece.

MARY: Yeah, I love that idea. I'm gonna remind our listeners and viewers on YouTube that was back in 2012 right? So it was before Peloton and before the mirror and all of those things.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, and it's interesting to see those things come along. Cause like, you know, you kinda feel like, oh, we missed that on these huge ideas, right? Cause we're sitting here selling kettlebells, but you know, I think that's kind of the benefit of starting your own business. You know, there's different kinds of levels to the journey. There's different scales to everything that you do.You know, I think the fitness community, building the online community and kind of aligning different kind of small and niche type of organizations is kind of an expertise of ours and expertise of mine now that I can carry with me and kind of apply that in any organization.

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. And well, I think you guys, I mean, I don't know if anybody before you guys maybe unless it was like individual people or individual gyms that were creating this idea of community around the product, right? And before or some of the big ones that we can think of now. So I think that was brilliant that you did that at that time, right? You kind of rode the digital wave a little bit in that regard, I think.

CHAD: Yeah, it makes me feel very old that I'm like original like social media, you know, like I had Facebook when it first came out, right?

 MARY: Right.

CHAD: I thought those were the good old days and I think you're correct in the sense that there weren't any real kind of online communities back then because social media wasn't such a big presence. And we really… in the kind of creation of our business, we really wanted to focus on bringing as many people together as we could through a digital platform and we never really wanted to have like a physical location. We wanted to invest everything in the company that we could to have like the most successful aggregation of content and basically like a superstore for the enthusiasts online and anyone can experience from anywhere in the world. 

MARY: Now you also… for people who might not know, you also actually sold kettle bells and worked on the design of them and the manufacturing of them as well, didn't you?

CHAD: Yeah, no, I mean that kind of stuff is awesome for me. You know I had many different jobs in college and after college so some of my previous experiences helped out there. Like for example, I was doing stadium seating when I was in construction and if you do stadium seating, you know, like the stanchions or the uprights that hold the seats together, they're made out of caste. And so I would get huge containers of those on the construction site. And you know, for me, it's like, oh, this is how, you know, metal is made. This is how bulk iron is shipped to America. So I kind of had a familiarity with the type of process that was needed. And once we started Kettlebell Kings, we really just found experts and organizations that, you know, we kind of took their advice and took the customer advice and tried to make the best product. So we would take samples from a manufacturer and then just really tweak and tweak those until we got those into the hands of the professionals and they told us it was perfect and then that's the one we'd go with.

MARY: Yeah, nice. I love that process. You know, and it's trial and error, right? You just have to go with what's best right now until you find something better.

CHAD: One hundred percent and you know, I tell people all the time we got kettlebells with literally, you know, we get them into the warehouse, we want to do quality control and so we literally throw them up in the air, bang on the ground like try to break them on purpose and during that process, some of them would crack open so you know we've got kettlebells literally like factory dust and dirt and cigarette butts inside before. So there's definitely a trial and error process that goes into making things right but you know I enjoy that process and I think that's what helps separate you from another company. So if everyone has to go through kind of those pitfalls and overcome those obstacles, you know, just puts you a little further away from the competition.

MARY: Absolutely, absolutely. You know, COVID affected a lot of businesses that were… in a negative way when we all closed and all of that, but you guys actually thrived during that time. Talk a little bit about that and how that happened. 

CHAD: Well, I mean, we always knew when we started the company that online fitness and digital fitness at home was gonna be the future of health and wellness. So you know in our eyes, COVID just kind of accelerated that process and took this into that, you know, that new reality forever. So even if you went back to the gym, I think you still remember those days and you still kind of have a plan or backup plan for your online fitness or your home based fitness, let's say initiatives. And so for us, we were already set up perfectly for that. And all that really did was, you know, kind of prove our point and, you know, it proved the kind of the model if you will for Kettlebell Kings as a whole because we weren't even able to fulfill all of the needs at the time, you know? We went from, you know, normal, doing well as a business, growing, doubling every year type of success as a company, but during that time period, you know, we had over 50,000, 60,000 people on our waitlist. Just they couldn't get product so you know it's kind of a crazy time.

MARY: Yeah, that is a crazy time. You mentioned your model. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Kind of outline that for our listeners. Your model for Kettlebell Kings. 

CHAD: Sure. I mean, I think it's multi faceted, right?

 MARY: Right.

CHAD: So when you talk about having a business model or, for Kettlebell Kings, specifically our business model, you're gonna have basically your products for your hardware, which is gonna be fitness equipment. The main thing for us is going to be kettlebells. So, you know, we section that up into the different types of kettlebells.There's different, you know, you have kettlebell, sport, you have hard style kettlebell lifters. You have people who want kind of a hybrid. You know, you have kilograms versus pounds, different things like that. So we decide on, you know, which lines of series of kettlebells we carry. And then more importantly, we really try to be a content company. So we try to see ourselves as a kind of like the ESPN of the kettlebell world where we're aggregating all of the content, all of the user generated content that exists out there and trying to create or produce better content from that and work with those people who are creating those pieces of content to, you know, promote them as a, you know, whether they're a trainer or it's a gym or, you know, a facility for kettlebell sport, different things like that. So it's about really kind of having a production, if you will, where we're literally having, you know, 365 days a year. This is what we're going to be producing. This is what we're going to be, you know, when we're going to be filming it, this is when it should be coming out on our social content channels and things like that. So a lot of it was really growing that production side. I think that was the harder part than the equipment. The equipment is just, you know, I think that's kind of the basics of just getting manufacturers from wherever you're getting that manufacturing.

MARY: Yeah, but you bring up a good point about having multiple revenue streams. Coming in with that. And correct me if I'm wrong in this, in 2019, you guys actually acquired another company… Battle Ropes. Am I saying that right? Tell us about that.

 CHAD: Correct. Yeah, so in 2019, you know, we really decided that kettlebells were really growing. As a fitness company, we had inquiries and we had, you know, the ability to sell other things besides kettlebells, But we didn't wanna have, let's say, dumbbells by Kettlebell Kings. And so we created a new brand called Living Fit. And that brand was basically going to encompass and it's still I say going to because I sold my shares in that when I sold my Kettlebell King shares, but my partner still runs that brand. That brand basically sells all types of fitness equipment and battle ropes was one of those things that we want to incorporate into that. So the purchasing of battle ropes, you know, a strategic decision for us to have those types of certifications and all of the training and workout videos that came with that company. That gave us a kind of a foundation to build other types of products from. So, you know, we'd use that as a structure to build the dumbbell, the barbell, the jump ropes, resistance bands, you know, diet programs. So at that point we really were into building digital programs and digital services that we could offer people and you know there was no actual physical product that we need to ship in that situation.

MARY: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned the sale of Kettlebell Kings, a multimillion dollar sale.How did you come to the decision to say, okay, maybe it's time to do this kind of… be open to this? 

CHAD: Well, we knew, you know, we…It's a heavy inventory based company. So when you're trying to grow, you know, you can only grow as much as your margins will allow you if you're not taking on a significant amount of financing and when you have 3 partners… We had 3 partners, 2 companies, a bunch of kind of different initiatives so it becomes a challenge just to allocate resources and agree on where you're gonna allocate those resources most effectively to grow the company because when you're growing so fast that, you know, it's not much room to pay yourself personally. Because the company just needs more and more finance for whatever it is, whether it's inventory, marketing, expanding into new countries, different things like that.

MARY: Right.

CHAD: So on that journey when we're looking for inventory financing or looking for a financial partner, a lot of people were approaching us about owning some type of piece of the company and a lot of those people wanted to own a majority share of the company. So once those conversations started about a majority share, you know, there wasn't a real option for us to stay around as a kind of a side or a minority owner in the company. And so we really just started kind of taking conversations of if you want to purchase the company as a whole and that led us to some of these larger aggregators had already been reaching out to us. You know, I think a lot of people see the brand and has a lot of potential because it has such a great online following and it demands such a big presence in that niche. So, you know, if you're searching kettlebells, you're going to find Kettlebell Kings. You know, we've becomes synonymous with the term kettlebells in a way where you know we have our competitors to have the hashtag “Kettlebell Kings”, on their social channels and things like that. So I think that's one of the benefits to just owning that brand and the expansion that it’s capable of is, you know, it's outrageous. You're not even talking about… you're talking about…we've only really been in America. Kind of just dipped our toe into Europe and Australia a little bit.

 MARY: Right, right. You mentioned the brand becoming synonymous with the piece of equipment, the kettlebell, and I think that you guys worked hard to make that happen because that's what comes to everybody's forefront of their mind when they think kettlebell. You're absolutely right about that. I know initially…and this is, you know, well documented… as a minority business owner, it's difficult to get funding sometimes.Did you face any of those hurdles based on the fact that well, you had 3 partners, but 2 of you are minorities, right?

So, did you face any of those hurdles that people normally face?

 CHAD: Yeah, definitely. And, you know, I, you know, I tell people all the time we would never get financing. So we tried to get financing from every, you know, bank that we ever worked with. We ended up leaving every big bank because they kind of, you know, what we felt were not taken as serious as entrepreneurs or as businessmen. We ended up working with smaller credit unions who you know told us that they would take us a little more serious but they never really had any type of financing that was substantial enough to really make a difference for us. So you know. $5,000 is not really gonna change your company when you need, you know, $30,000 worth of kettlebells.

 MARY: Right.

 CHAD: But in those situations, they also wanted, you know, personal guarantees and things like that. And when you're an entrepreneur, you don't have, you know, a salary, let's say, for example, to guarantee some of the things that they're gonna want to get these types of financing options. So for us, you know, we literally boot strapped it all the way into the point where we were using, you know, these kind of e-commerce type loans, whether that's, you know, PayPal capital or, you know, the different ones that you could just, you know, you basically can sign up online. They take a percentage of your revenue from your ecommerce store. So that's probably the biggest financing that we used. But up until the point in which we were looking for serious financing and eventually ended up selling, that's kind of what led us to that conversation.

 MARY: Is this your second or third year staying on and then you're moving on? Kind of talk about that process a little bit.

 CHAD: Yeah, so unfortunately I probably should have mentioned this to you earlier, but unfortunately with the company that acquired us, we were then acquired by another company and so we attempted to stay on and unfortunately that ended up leading us to no longer work with them and in the end actually ended up leading to litigation.

 MARY: Okay.

 CHAD: So we're in pending litigation with that second acquiring company right now because of the current contract.

 MARY: Right, because that was part of that original agreement. I'm assuming that you guys stayed on for a period of time to help in the transition and, you know, bringing the company forward in the way that you guys had intended.

 CHAD: Correct. Yeah, and it was the 3 year acquisition that had, you know, payouts associated with the 3 years and everything like that.

 MARY: Right.

 CHAD: And so, it'll get worked out through the course of some, you know, luckily we live in, in a world where there is a way to handle these situations and our lawyers have been involved the entire time. So from this, from the time we sold to the time they were reacquired, the lawyers were kind of never really finished with the first sale so it's something that the lawyers will work out and it's really just a matter of time before everything gets settled.

 MARY: Right, right. I think that's important too for our listeners to understand that sometimes these sales don't always go as planned, right?

 CHAD: For sure.

 MARY: But there are avenues that you can take to protect yourself. And I think that's important for them to know. What did you learn in that process that you wish you had known before you started that process?

 CHAD: Yeah, I mean, I was just gonna say that I think even in these situations you learn so much about what you can do, how you can help someone in the future, what, you know, what kind of safeguards you could have put in place. I think in these situations you really have to understand that you're working with a corporation, you know, when you come from being a small business owner, you take a lot of personal pride and, you know, you put a lot of personal integrity into your work, into the brand. And when you're working with corporations, especially international corporations, they don't necessarily look at business the same way or maybe have the same, let's say, personal attachments or personal integrity to what you're trying to do, as an individual brand. So, you know, if a company owns a 150 brands and you come in as one brand, you're just not going to get the same level of care that you know, white glove type of care that you would have given it possibly and I think taking that kind of stuff into consideration and contractually making sure that the things that were most important are contractual and not just kind of word of mouth or handshake agreement, is probably the best way to go in any of those types of situations.

 MARY: Yeah, some good advice. I'm sure you have some of that advice in your book too, which we'll talk about a little bit later. Let's go on to your new venture. Life Grows Green. That's your new company that you started in… I believe 2019. Explain to us what Life Grows Green is.

 CHAD: So one of the things, you know, through the journey of kind of owning a health and wellness company or fitness company, that I really noticed how you know we could help people, you know, it really inspired me to see how many people would pick up a kettlebell, and, you know, 6 months later they feel like, you know, they've found something great in their life and they really have built kind of a new personality even around. you know, around this new tool and it just really inspires them to just live a healthier life. I think helping people do stuff like that is, you know, part of a good business and part of building community. I didn't realize I had a passion for it when I started Kettlebell Kings, but now I know that, you know, that is the kind of stuff that I wanna work on. You know, I don't think I could ever really work for a company that takes advantage of people, for example. So, you know, my idea with Life Grows Green was to build a company of natural lifestyle products, you know, whether that's hemp based products, you know, plant derived type of supplements and things like that. Or just your, your natural lifestyle products that you use every day, you know, your glassware, your sheets, your bedding, you know, different things like that. Really just trying to build a community of people who see and want to replace any type of product they can in their life with some natural option or natural version.I think there's, you know, there's a lot of kind of missed out opportunities to have natural products in our lives and just because we don't know any better, we end up with, you know, a cheaper plastic or pharmaceutical version of something that could be natural.

MARY: Right, I completely agree and I'm one of those people who loves to go natural. I'm in the process of getting rid of all the plastics in my house, at least trying to. Let's talk about… you mentioned some of the products. How can people find the products? How's business going so far? Because you've been what it's… four years now?

 CHAD: When we first started, this was right before COVID. And so, you know, the idea of what we're gonna do shifted quite a bit over COVID. You know, at the time when I started Life Grows Green, I had the nail salon still…I was running a nail salon, Kettlebell Kings, and Living Fit. And then I had Life Grows Green as well. So the idea and the popularity around hemp and CBD was a lot higher. Once COVID happened, everything kinda went into, you know, let's say kind of a suspension, if you will, until we figured out how long we're gonna be in quarantine. We have a lot of in person projects and events that we were trying to participate in that obviously got canceled and didn't really get to happen.But not to mention just the space of advertising for hemp is one of the most difficult things that I've probably done in my career because of all the regulations around it. So, you know, Google, Facebook, Instagram, you're not really able to do that. You know, if you see advertisements there, it's usually some type of a gray hat/ black hat method that companies have to use to not get their account suspended or banned or different things like that. We've tried, you know, even to do things the correct way. Hire organizations to do things the correct way and still have gotten our accounts suspended and banned just for trying to do normal advertising like I would with any other company so through that lens…

 MARY: That's really interesting. Yeah.

 CHAD: Yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say through that lens, it's very difficult to advertise and to grow a brand like this.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHAD: With that being said, you know, lately we've been shifting into more natural lifestyle products. So we have all of your hemp products, but you know, you'll see our Amazon store coming online here shortly. We'll be carrying more of your, like I said the universal lifestyle products versus the hemp based products. And I think advertising and trying to use those as kind of a starting point to get more people in online, it's gonna be a lot easier than trying to climb that uphill battle or fighting the quote on quote CBD and the hemp space.

 MARY: That's interesting because I know Google Analytics and that online marketing really helped with Kettlebell Kings and you kind of.. search engine optimization and all of that and so it's throwing up roadblocks now though for this particular company, which I find interesting especially since…I mean how many states now have legalized medical marijuana or marijuana for use and correct me if I'm wrong but hemp is not marijuana.

 CHAD: Exactly. And weed I don't sell. Everything that we sell is 100% federally legal to ship nationally and internationally.

MARY: I wonder why that is. Why do you think that is? Because it's not, I mean the products don't contain THC.

 CHAD: Yeah, I think it's the stigma, you know, I think it's the stigma of people thinking that is like kind of a gateway to THC, which is the gateway to, you know, cocaine and just you know it just scares people just you know you take one step in that direction and you know I think that it’s coming down. I think the green wave is real and it's continuing to kind of wash across America and like you say legalization is still growing every single… every time we have an election, we, you know, we get more and more states that are going in what I would consider the right direction.

 MARY: How are you overcoming that hurdle though?

 CHAD: You know, I think everyone who is in kind of that industry has had to overcome hurdles like this. So, you know, I kind of complain about the social platforms, but it's not just them. It's the credit card processors. It's insurance. It's every single part of the business. You know, you can sell 99% of your products, be everything besides let's say hemp or CBD and if you add hemp or CBD, now you're a high risk company for some reason. And these are things that have been in legislation and you know kind of ingrained into corporate America that they need to just be outlawed. Like there's no reason for, you know, hemp has already been basically given the same kind of space as a rice or any other plant or grain that you would grow. So it should be treated as such by every organization. It shouldn't be treated as some kind of high risk event or high risk operation, but currently that's just how it is and there's not really anything you can do. So you just have to…you're paying a higher cost for every single thing that you do and you're getting restricted on advertising pretty much on every platform currently.

 MARY: Right. So, you have some strategies, I'm sure, to overcome that. How are you.. what are some of the strategies that you're implementing?

 CHAD: What you can do is literally try to create an online community using the products that you sell that don't have anything to do with hemp because you can technically have, let's say two separate stores, an Amazon store and an e-commerce store, and then by building that community of people who appreciate the 100% non-hemp, non-CBD products, you can kind of hopefully get those people through your social channels and things like that.

 MARY: I think you're right. I think there's a path forward for these brands because so many of us are turning back to natural, you know, even down to, you know, doing our own gardens every year, right?

 CHAD: Exactly.

 MARY: So many of us are making that turn back to natural products. So I'm hoping that you are one of the companies that makes it through. I think you will be. You bring up a topic though that a lot of entrepreneurs face and that's just when you're facing so many roadblocks sometimes it kind of deflates your goals a little bit and deflates your passion a little bit. How do you overcome that?

 CHAD: Well, I tell people all the time when I first, you know, sports helped me quite a bit when I first got to Rice. Well growing up where I grew up, you know, we were good in sports and I was really good in sports. So I won most games that I played. And, you know, won the state championship in high school. So it was very kind of fortunate to have kind of a winning career up until my college career and in college, I had to kind of do a little more setback. You know, we had a season where we were 3 and 8. And we only won 3 games, which to me… that was outrageous. Only lost two games in high school in 4 years so having those types of experiences just kind of had me on a different mindset, you know, I look at it as like you can have a losing season and you can still come back next season and be better. And even two losing seasons, three losing seasons, you know, I don't look at the losses as a hundred percent something that I need to dwell on, something that I need to make sure I'm learning from and getting stronger from. So it more just calibrates me for the next bat on. You know, I feel more confident going into the next battle because I've lost already and because I already know what that feels like. I know, you know, how I didn't make it last time or why I didn't succeed when I did this in the past. And so those types of experiences, they really give me more confidence if I spend them correctly.

 

MARY: Yeah, you mentioned battle. Your book is called Preparing for Battle. It was released this fall. Talk about what people are gonna find when they pick up that book from Amazon.

 

CHAD: Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of what I talk about in the book as well. You know, I do see business as kind of a battlefield, a competitive playing field. I think everyone who wants to have a successful brand, who becomes an entrepreneur and there can only be so many. You know, one of the things I tell people is that, yeah, I think we all individually only can remember so many brands in our head. So I don't know how many brands, you know, you maybe have 10, I maybe have 10 or 8 or whatever that number is but there can only be so many brands that we actually associate with ourselves and we, you know, we're proud to kind of be a member of or a part of that community. So I want to be that for as many different brands that I work with and I talk about kind of building the mindset to create that in the book. So more than what type of specific industry you're in. I think it's about having the correct mindset to deal with the obstacles that are going to come up in business. You know, the information that in 2012 when we started Kettlebell Kings and how you do social media advertisements, you know the most lucrative ways to kind of build that community are not the 100% same as they are you know in 2023 and I think understanding that you need to go into it with the mindset of this is going to be a battle. I need to learn on the fly. I need to be a lifelong learner you know the person that kind of leads my team as an expert in my industry and expert in whatever field that I'm trying to get in. I think that's more important than, you know, trying to gorge yourself on information before you get there.

 MARY: Yeah, yeah. I'm suggesting to our listeners that they go and get your book and read it, but what books along your path did you read that kind of influenced you?

 CHAD: So I mean, there would be so many like…I was one of those kids where I literally used to read adult books, you know, like I read every religious book by the time I was like 10 years old. I used to read the encyclopedia. So yeah, I was one of those like, extremely, kind of, nerdy kids that just used to read all the time. At a certain point, you know, reading books to me is just part of the experience of learning. You know, I like to take, I like to take concepts more than kind of the individual words or things, you know, I don't like to idolize individuals, I don't like to idolize books. I really like to learn the concepts and cross reference those concepts. So, you know, if you really were talking about like what are some of my favorite books, it would be like, you know, The Laws of Power, or, The Art of War or something like that. It'd be something more conceptual to where I really just like, how do we apply these concepts universally to whatever we're trying to achieve, whatever goals we have? My experience through sports and seeing so many different personalities and individuals and ways to lead, you know, and lead men and teams and things like that. They really kind of build my philosophy on how I look at business. I don't think when I go into a business that I know everything I need to know. I think that I've been given this responsibility and it's time for me to grow into that person and it's time for me to lead to that person and it's time for me to lead everyone and kind of walk this journey with everyone. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs could learn from kind of that approach versus, you know, kind of thinking that you're already the expert at whatever you're trying to do before you get there.

 

MARY: Yeah, right. You also consult with businesses and now having this conversation with you, I can totally see why. And the benefits that other business owners would get in kind of hiring you to kind of lead them through some processes that they may have going on. Do you, and you kind of alluded to in that answer, do you have a philosophy of business? And of entrepreneurship?

 CHAD: I mean, I think it shifts, you know, I think having the self awareness to assess where you are, you know, I think I tell people all the time, like a good example is I had to learn this for myself when I was having a nail salon and having a fitness company at the same time.

The conversations and the motivational conversations that you'd have in the nail salon are not the same that you have in a kettlebell warehouse. Those are completely two different…So I have the same goal, but you do not have the same conversation. You can’t have the same tone, the same attitude. You have to take these things into consideration. So I think having that self-awareness not only about who you are as an individual, but who your team is, these types of things. For me, it comes easy because I've been on so many teams. I didn't, you know, I don't, I didn't like everybody I played with. I was the kid that I knew the coach would get on some people and baby other people because that's what it took to motivate them. There was a, you know, there was a method to the madness sometimes and I'm one of those people that can see and I like that kind of psychological strategy to things and so I really try to come in and say, you know, where are you? Where do you think you are? Let's see, you know, how close to my objective, a perception of things is your perception of things and then if we can agree on common points then I think you can kinda coach any team to the direction you want them to go. And that's just a matter of kind of putting the plan in place and executing on it.

 

MARY: Yeah. Excellent. I love this. I know we can keep talking forever, but I probably need to wrap us up a little bit. I do want you before I let you go to give some advice to some of our entrepreneurs who are maybe starting out their journey. They think they have a product or they think they have an idea, but they're just not sure how to get it started.

 

CHAD: I mean, I think when you're, when you're just starting out, that's, you know, it's an opportunity and it's kind of one of the most difficult times you're a hundred percent right. You don't know which direction you’re always going when you're first starting and there are unlimited directions. So you know that's one of the things that you know, even with Kettlebell Kings, it changed over time. When we started the company, we were going to carry every single brand of kettlebells that existed and because of the first year of trying to do that, it ended up being, hey, you know, now we're just gonna carry our brand and we're gonna manufacture a different series and so I think having the correct mindset going in that you're gonna do whatever it takes to work is more important than, you know, trying to make sure that you've gotten the exact product line up right or you've gotten the exact advertising, the exact logo even. You know, I think there's situations in which action trumps, you know, kind of just sitting there being stale. So, if you have a way to create cash flow, to create revenue, to reach customers, I would say that's where you should start. You know, you should start with whatever can kind of create that initial cash flow. Even if it's not high profit margins, you can, you know, you can work on the margins, especially if you're not doing high volume and you're still able to create cash flow and bring in new customers and generate leads, bring in some type of let's say proof of concept that will allow you to do a lot of different things because as you're doing that you can work with individuals you can, you know, you can mentor or you find yourself. I'm sorry, not mentor. You could find yourself a mentor to help you in these situations. But if you don't really have any real world item to analyze.It's kind of hard for anyone to help. You kind of talk about a figment of everyone's imagination.

 MARY: Right, right. I love the way that you said that because so many people I think get almost paralyzed by trying to get everything right before they launch. Right? The right logo, the right, you know, branding materials, the right product. Rather than let's launch, let's bring in some money and let's be ready to educate ourselves on how things are going. And be open to change, which is all the things that you just said.

CHAD: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's why I say for me, it's almost natural because of sports and, you know, and sports the games on Friday. So it's like you can do whatever you want to do, but you have to go play on Friday.

 

MARY: Right.

 

CHAD: And I think in business you have to, you have to create that for yourself. So that doesn't exist. There's no real game. And if you're, you know, when you're first starting, you get to kind of stall and say, well, we'll just play next week. We'll just play next week. And it's like, no, you have to be the one to say the game is on Friday. So we're starting on Friday and that type of mindset I think is what is most important in entrepreneurs so that you're the person that pushes things forward if no one is there to build your dream for you. Like no one is there to build a brand. It's a multimillion-dollar or a billion-dollar global brand for you. It's like you're going to be the driving force or at least the starting point where the energy comes from.

 MARY: Yeah. Oh my god, that's so good. I'm gonna tell everybody right now to go back and re-listen to what he just said because it's so good. The other thing I want to ask you is, okay, so you sold the Kettlebell Kings, you're starting this new company, and you've written the book, what's next for you?

 CHAD: So I mean right now I'm working on, you know, quite a few different things. Obviously, Life Grows Green is one of my main focuses right now for sure. The book is just being released, that's what I'm really mainly kind of doing my promotional tour, if you will for the book. So I'll be doing podcasts like this, but I'm also doing in-person events. I'm working on some workshops. So I have workshops and presentations, kind of doing some career development even with some of the young entrepreneurs and things like that. So I'm really just trying to transition to the next chapter of my business life. I am looking for consulting opportunities or joint venture opportunities right now. So, you know, have a couple of potential opportunities that I may do. But I'm, you know, I'm also looking to kind of bring in larger ones. I think that there are some larger fitness brands possibly out there that could use my advice and that maybe you're not doing so well when I look at the landscape, but you know I think those are just kind of… that's just one angle that I'd like to kind of give my feedback on but there's so many different things that I want to do right now. I'm just kind of open to anything.

 MARY: So, Chad, how do people get in touch with you if they would like to hire you as a consultant or ask you some questions?

 CHAD: The best way to get in touch with me is probably through my website. My website chadprice.com. You know, you can also reach me on all social channels. I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, so Chad Price on LinkedIn, and real Chad Price on the other social channels. And then you can check my book out on Amazon. So, you know, that's probably the number one way to support me and really understand a lot of my philosophies, and it talks about my story and then my story with Kettlebell Kings. So I think that's always a good starting point if you're interested in starting your own business for a business entrepreneur. 

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Because in that book, you have some great advice and you even have a section of the book that's kind of a workbook for entrepreneurs too.

 CHAD: Yeah, I mean, like I said, you know, previously I think kind of getting your mindset correct is the best way to start or to look at entrepreneurship. Really self assessing where you are, what skills you may need, kind of building out a roadmap. And I think that's what the workbook section really tries to help you do. It helps you really give a good self-assessment of where you are and where you'd like to go. What tools and resources you're gonna need to put in place in order to get there. And that's why I try to help people.

 MARY: All right, Chad Price, thank you so much for joining us today.

 CHAD: Thank you for having me.

 MARY: Yeah, great conversation. So everyone go follow Chad on his social media and buy that book. But for now that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember this is the podcast that's brought to you through partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. Remember you can catch the podcast multiple ways now. We're on wherever you get your podcast, but we're also on YouTube. So go check out our YouTube channel and make sure that you hit that subscribe button so that you get notified every time we drop a new episode like this one right here. This podcast is produced by Communication Studies major, Isabella Martinez. We want to thank you for tuning in for us today. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. Until next time everybody, dream big.

 

 

Capturing the perfect picture can be tricky, but it can also help companies brand and tell their stories. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we sat down with photographer Jatoya Rector and discussed how she helps companies’ brand with her business, Jatoya Lanisha Photography. Additionally, she shares what she learned from the Greenville Starts program, and emphasizes the power of networking and branding.

Guest: Jatoya Rector

Website: https://jatoyalanishaphotography.pic-time.com/portfolio

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producers: Kayla Patterson '23 and Isabella Martinez '24

 

SHOW TRANSCRIPT

MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host, Mary Sturgill. You know, this is the podcast that's brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship here at Furman University and the Communication Studies department here as well. This episode is part of our Everyday Entrepreneur series in which we talk to graduates of the Greenville Starts program about how that program helped them and where they are in their ventures in hopes of inspiring some of you. So we have a very special guest today. Jatoya Rector was in the very first Greenville Starts cohort with me and she joins us here today to talk about her business which is Jatoya Lanisha Photography. Jatoya, it's good to see you.

 JATOYA: It's good to see you Mary. I’m so happy to be here. We meet again.

 MARY: I know. I know. Our cohort… it was, I mean, I'm sure all of them are like this, but we’re the best.

 JATOYA: Yeah, exactly.

 MARY: But our cohort…we have such camaraderie amongst us and it's so good when we run into each other and see each other at events.

 JATOYA: So excited. We're so proud of each other. We made it through and we're all like dreamers you know, going after what we want in life. So that's really good.

 MARY: I love that and I mean, that's exactly how I always end my podcast is “Dream Big everybody.” You know? And that's a huge part of what we're doing as entrepreneurs. So let's talk about this. How did you…you have an MBA right? How did you parlay an MBA into photography?

 JATOYA: Well, see.. I think that really helped me with like all the admin stuff and everything behind behind the scenes, but it really was, you know, taking something I want to be passionate about like photography. It wasn't as… using the MBA, you know, you don't get to be as creative as you want to be. So photography gave me a creative outlet and it really helped me to showcase, you know, my passion and then being able to work with people is really really what I wanted to do.

 MARY: How long ago did you start like taking pictures and when did you discover that photography was your passion?

 JATOYA: You know what? I think I've always been taking pictures like in the group of friends, I'm always the picture taker and I just always want to make sure everything, everybody looks good and everything's right. So I think that was always my passion. And I take a lot of pictures myself. So I think that… it's just photography just came to me, especially like branding photography. When I saw like people starting businesses but didn't have those high quality images, and I was like, I can fix that so I picked up a camera and it's been all ever since.

MARY: So that's exactly what you do in your company is you help people with their branding. So for people who might not understand how you do that through photography, how do you do that through photography?

 JATOYA: Well, it's pretty much taking the person and make… and showing their personality basically. You're gonna take like lifestyle pictures or pictures of you planning, doing things behind the scenes for your business. And I make sure that you have those images so that you can share that with your clients and the clients you want to attract so they can not only see your business, what you produce, but who you are as a person. So it's really about showing the person behind the business.

 MARY: And I think that's so important because so many people make decisions on companies to go with. Say they're, you know, searching for something, someone to do something for them or someone to hire. And I know a lot of people are like me, I look at those photographs, and I'm like, who do I connect with?

 JATOYA: Right. Exactly. You want to see a little bit of you in that person and you want to have something to connect with that's just beyond the product. You're like, what are they into? Are they a nice person? Do they have pets? You know, what are they doing for vacation? You just want to see them outside of actual work to make sure that you align together.

 MARY: Exactly because that’s so important. Let’s talk about your path to get to opening the company. What did you… what did you do once you, did you go straight through for your masters and work out in the field somewhere?

 JATOYA: Yeah, I definitely…So my career path is in IT. So I've worked in IT for over 18 years. I was a Project Manager. Well, that's still kind of what I do now during the day so I still have that day job. But with photography, I pretty much started shooting my friends, family, anyone just to get that practice. Just starting is pretty much what will get you going as you know, just, you know getting out there and getting it going. So once I started, I was like, I can turn this into a business, I was getting really, really good and I was getting a lot of clients. So I was like I need to, you know, formalize this and make this a real thing.

 MARY: So you run this on a subscription type of basis. Is that correct?

 JATOYA: Yes, I have clients. I have clients that do subscription where they do monthly, like maybe four or five months at a time they subscribe and they have a set price but then I do still do clients who you know pay as they go or whenever they need me. I still have that option as well.

 MARY: The photographs that you take are like headshots, lifestyle shots, anything that they might need for websites, potential videos and social media as well.

 JATOYA: Yeah. If you're going to an event, you're gonna get an award, you need someone there to take your picture, make sure you have that. Anything that's going on with you personally. And then anything… maybe you want some with your kids or family to show that side of you as well. So anything to do with your lifestyle and then anything to do with your business as well. Yeah.

 MARY: So I love that because as you said, you know you're getting an award or something. I'm just, I'm thinking about you know, when back when I was a journalist, all the awards I won. I’m like usually I'm the one taking the picture up here. I’m like hmm, should’ve had a picture of me getting that award.

 JATOYA: Right. You're the winner. You need your picture…

 MARY: Exactly.

 JATOYA: …up there receiving your award that you can show everybody.

 MARY: Right. Right.

 MARY: So… some people might think well, what does an MBA have to learn from Greenville Starts, right? So for people who might not know, Greenville Starts is a program that's hosted by the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship with our community partners, the City of Greenville, among others. It's an eight week program that people go into and they meet like twice a week. And it gives them training and connections and we meet with people who have access to capital who could help you get access to capital, anything to either launch or grow your business. So some people might say, well, what does an MBA need to do Greenville starts for?

 JATOYA: Because Greenville Starts was an awesome opportunity. It was about the networking like it was the people in the community who came in and like really poured into us and then you don't know what you don't know.

 MARY: Right.

 JATOYA: Like, exactly. It's about… they were telling us things and businesses and places to apply for things that we didn't know and then there's a legal side of things. So, you're not a lawyer, so they had someone come in and tell us, you know about IPs and things like that. So it was really about them pouring into the behind the scenes and how to actually run a successful business that you just really wouldn't know unless you had the opportunity to connect with folks.

 MARY: Yeah, for sure.Did you… what were some of the takeaways that you were like, okay, I have to apply this to my business in particular?

 JATOYA: I think the basic… the major takeaway was I needed to really formulate my pitch on where I'm reaching clients or reaching out to investors, really formulating what I need and kind of putting that in a very executive and clean place. I mean, clean order so that we can like understand what our needs are. I think the program really helped us to focus and streamline our needs and what our ask is, when we go out to the community and we present ourselves or we ask, we're in front of investors, we know how to you know, go down our executive summary and kind of formulate that ask.

 MARY: Right. So…and to be able to tell your story.

 JATOYA: And tell our story. Absolutely.

 MARY: So important, so important. What…you know, lots of us fail. I mean, you still of course are doing two things at one time…running the company And still working in IT. But what…has there been a time when you have failed, but you've learned something from it that you can share with our audience?

 JATOYA: I think it would be dealing with overworking yourself and burnout. So it's really like being able to stay on top of all the tasks you have to do. Once you put on the CEO hat, that's not your only hat.

 MARY: RIGHT.

 JATOYA: And you have to, you know, do customer relations and everything like that. So I think failing would be, you know, overbooking yourself or overworking yourself and not having that balance. And I really think that's really important with me right now is just finding, getting in the right tools and resources, even the right people to help you along the way so that you could actually scale so yeah, I think that would be it.

 MARY: So where are you now in… in the process, are you because you can't be everywhere. And most I would think that most of these photography sessions probably take place nights and weekends because of other people's schedules, not just yours.

 JATOYA: Right.

 MARY: And then that leaves you with no personal time. How are you balancing that? What kinds of things are you doing?

 JATOYA: Oh, really, it's all about my calendar. So I literally live off my calendar, blocking off those weekends and making those vacation plans and making sure I have that time blocked off and being available for my clients to be in… I'm flexible, and they're pretty much flexible too. So if I do run into a time where I need that break, they're always willing to kind of say we can move it to this day. And it just, yeah, just making sure you block your time out. Absolutely.

 MARY: What other advice do you have that you've… something that you've learned that you're like, oh, I wish I'd known that before I started?

 JATOYA: I think I wish I would have learned the power of networking. I think that we, we go through life and we're like, learning all these things and we're, you know, getting our degrees and we're working working really hard but it's really relationships that's gonna take your business to the next level. It's really people knowing people knowing people so it's really about getting out there and I wish I would have, you know, got out there earlier. So as you know, making your face known in the community so that you can meet the right people to kind of propel you into your dreams.

 MARY: Yeah. I want to talk a little bit more about the branding and how just good photography helps with branding. What are some of the things that you've noticed that you've been able to help your customers with, just by upgrading their photography on their websites and on their social media?

 JATOYA: Yeah, I think that… I think that branding is, I think people don't understand what branding is. It's not like modeling or high fashion. So being able to kind of tell your story and make them comfortable with themselves and not thinking they have to pose and do all this high fashion runway type of thing. People get that confused and branding is more about, you know, you relaxing into who you are. Your genuine smile, your genuine, you know, activities that you will be doing on your laptop, on your phone. I think having people just calm down and understand that it's not you, it's not all about you posing, it's about you just being your natural self in front of a camera.

 MARY: And, and you as a photographer being able to capture that, I think.

 JATOYA: Absolutely. And bringing that out of people because a lot of people are super nervous. And I, it's just like calming them down and saying this is this is not, you know, anything that's gonna be scary, I’m gonna work with you and I'm definitely gonna guide you so you don't have to worry.

 MARY: Yeah. So it's really a lot of, of human interaction and…

 JATOYA: Yeah.

 MARY: It really takes some people skills to be able to do that.

 JATOYA: Absolutely. Absolutely. I get that a lot that people like, oh, God, I was really nervous. But then you got here and I got here. I’m very comfortable with you. So it's a lot of calming them down, talking to them, letting them know it's gonna be okay. And yeah, just really having that personal time with them before we get started to say hey, this is what we're gonna do. And everything's gonna be okay.

 MARY: Yeah, it's always gonna be okay. Because you can always take another picture.

 JATOYA: Right. I show them like, look, this is how it's going. So they are always comfortable. Like okay, this is going okay,

 MARY: And they’re like okay, it’s better than I thought.

 JATOYA: Absolutely.

 MARY: Like I have a sister who wants no pictures whatsoever ever taken of her. And she would be, she would be one of those clients that you have to work with.

 JATOYA: You look good. You look great. Look at this. I'm always like, trying to let them see what I'm doing so they get comfortable.

 MARY: Yeah. What is your plan to grow that because like I said, there's only one of you right? And you can only do so much.

 JATOYA: Right. Jatoya’s going to need a team. So right now I'm thinking I'm gonna need the space so I'm… I want a creative space where there's like different setups, like different scenes, living room, bedroom, couch that I can have. And then I'm going to need a team that's definitely going to be able to help me with that and grow. Also, you know, having people who can go out and shoot the content for me and bring it back to me to edit or you know, watch…even train editors so it's gonna be really about building Jatoya’s team and finding the space that I need to create this studio that can translate to really good content for whoever needs it.

 MARY: Yeah. And that's huge to be able to have that space that people can come to you that you don't necessarily have to travel to them all the time.

 JATOYA: All the time. Right. And I'm definitely willing, but yeah, having that space they can come to. Because some people don't have, you know, offices. A lot of people work out of their homes…

 MARY: Right.

 JATOYA: …as entrepreneurs, so having that space they can come to looks really, really good and is what I want to have.

 MARY: Yeah. And that you can change. Because you don't want everybody to be looking exactly the same.

 JATOYA: Exactly. Change some things out Make it whatever they would need it to be.

 MARY: Exactly. So it reflects their own personality.

 JATOYA: Right.

 MARY: I love that. So how do people who want to get in touch with you… how do they do that?

 JATOYA: There are several ways. They can follow me on Instagram @theimagequeen. My website is Jatoya Lanisha Photography.com and they can find me on Facebook - Jatoya Lanisha.

 MARY: I love your Instagram handle.

 JATOYA: Thank you! I know. I was like, how is this available?

 MARY: I know. This is so good.

 JATOYA: It’s perfect.

 MARY: It is perfect. People who are watching this on YouTube will know what we mean when we say it is perfect. Because you are… she's a hot tamale. That’s what she is. So, she is the image queen.

 MARY: So Jatoya, before I let you go, do you have one more piece of advice for anybody who might be thinking it's just not the right time to start a business?

 JATOYA: For anyone thinking it's not the right time, now is the time because there's no other time than now. If you wait, you're, you're just delaying your progress. You have to start to get started. So it's just basically get out there, get it going and follow your dreams because if you believe in it, and you have that passion, people are gonna come to you and be attracted. So, now is the time.

 MARY: Yeah, I love that. Gotta start to get started.

 JATOYA: You gotta start to get started.

 MARY: That should be your motto.

 JATOYA: That’s right.

 MARY: That should be every entrepreneur’s motto.

 JATOYA: Absolutely.

 MARY: Jatoya, thank you so much for joining me today.

JATOYA: Thank you for having me. I loved it. I loved seeing you.

 MARY: It was so much fun. Good seeing you too.

 MARY: All right, guys. Remember if you know of anyone who's an entrepreneur, or you're an entrepreneur yourself, Greenville Starts is a great place to get that jumpstart into your business, no matter what level your business is at if it's just an idea in your head or if maybe you've started and you have some clients, but you just got to figure out how to get to the next level so that maybe you can leave your job and really do this full time whatever the case may be, Greenville Starts is a great place to start. However, just Google Greenville starts at Furman and get yourself on the list for the very next cohort that's coming up. We are both advocates that will say you will not regret putting in the time to do that. That does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. Remember guys this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship, and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It's produced by student producers Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, who are a prime example of the Furman Advantage here and they are just wonderful producers. They put in a lot of hard work. I want you to check out our YouTube channel if you like watching people talk instead of listening to them, go over to YouTube and check out our new YouTube channel there but of course you can find the podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. We'd love to hear from you as well. So if you have any comments or whatever, just pop them in there on the comments on our website or on our YouTube channel as well. Thanks for tuning in everybody. I'm Mary Sturgill. Dream big everybody.

 

 

Finding that secret sauce can lead to success, but it’s not always easy to find. In this episode of the Class E Podcast, we talked with Chris Sexton, founder of the barbecue catering company, Sexton’s Smoke-N-Grill. From learning countless lessons in the Greenville Starts program to dealing with personal health concerns, Sexton discusses the future of his company, how he has become more appreciative of his skills, and the importance of keeping priorities straight as an entrepreneur.

Guest: Chris Sexton

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sextonsmokingrill

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez '24

 

TRANSCRIPT: 

MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. You know, this is the podcast that is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. 

Today's episode is part of the everyday entrepreneur series in which we talk to entrepreneurs who have graduated from our GVL Starts program. And the reason that we're doing that is we want you to hear their stories and be inspired by them wherever they are in the process of their venture. So today we have a very special guest, Chris Sexton, who is the owner of Sexton Smoke-N-Grill, and a new venture that he's calling Mr. Sauce It Up. Chris, welcome to the show. 

CHRIS: Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. 

MARY: Chris, I'm so happy that you were able to join us today because one - I'm gonna look right into the camera for the YouTube people - Chris’ food is amazing. Now when I was in, you know, I was a broadcaster for 20 years, and when I was in Texas, the broadcasters and you know different people in the community, they call us celebrities or whatever, but we had to judge barbecue competitions. So I've judged many a barbecue competition in my life. And Chris' is by far the best of any that I have done and it all boils down to the sauce, which I imagine is where the Mr. Sauce It Up came from. 

CHRIS: That is exactly where Mr. Sauce came from. I've created a new sauce using fruit, alcohol, and just a wide imagination to come up with different sauces. We've got about 10 to 15 sauces that we do. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: All incorporating fruits and alcohol like I said. Like you can take Hennessy bourbon…

MARY: Don’t give your whole secret away. 

CHRIS: No, everything’s not coming, but we’ve got great stuff coming. 

MARY: We don't want people to copy it. And you will want to once you taste this, you'll want to try to redo this at home. Tell us about how you got started with this. Because you’re in finance. 

CHRIS: I’m in finance. So to be honest with you, from working in finance, I've always had a passion for cooking. I started cooking when I was like 14 years old working at a little restaurant in Greer with legendary Peggy Davis. She owns Peggy’s Diner in Greer. Started working with her, handing out trays… and I kind of fell in love with that whole environment of cooking, creating. Did that all the way through high school… worked at McDonald's. But the sauce and the cooking came from truly talking on the phone with a guy from Mississippi on the phone about a car deal. 

MARY: Oh, wow.

CHRIS:  And he asked me what I was doing for Thanksgiving. I told him I was going to try fried turkey. He said you need to smoke it. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And that day, I smoked a duck, a turkey and a…a duck, a turkey, and a Boston butt. 

MARY: Wow. 

CHRIS: And they all came out great. 

MARY: Yeah. On your first time.

CHRIS: On my first time, it came out great. Not perfect, but great.

MARY: Right.  

CHRIS: But it was addictive. It was like it was something that…it’s what I needed at that point in time to slow me down and give me some perspective.

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And from there it's just kind of bloomed and grown from there. 

MARY: Yeah. What inspired you? Was it just the conversation with him or have you always… I mean, you've kind of always been a little a foodie.

CHRIS: A foodie. 

MARY: I mean, I consider you a foodie. 

CHRIS: So what really inspired me is the process. 

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: I fell in love with it. And I'm a person that loves serving people. So getting to feed people, seeing smiles on their face, people honestly patting your back saying this is the best barbecue I’ve ever had. 

MARY: And there are some smiles when they eat your stuff. 

CHRIS: And it’s encouraging. So the sauce idea actually came… I made a dish, not gonna say what dish it is, and my mom tried it and when she got done, she says “man, this would be good on some chicken wings.”

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And so me being who I am, it took me like three years… I sat there and thought about it and one day while I was at work, all my great ideas come on the clock… So I was sitting there one day and I'm like bingo. I figured out how to do it, I tried it, and I kind of took it off from there. 

MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: And that's… the biggest thing about my barbecue is it's different.

MARY: Yeah. It totally is. 

CHRIS: And I refuse to do what everybody else does. And my goal with my business is to create a new space in a traditional market. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: When you go to restaurants and you go places… that's the other thing that inspired me…I’m tired of eating vinegar based, tomato based, mustard based barbecue sauces. You know, I want something different and so that's what we've done.

MARY: So you have…how many sauces did you say now?  

CHRIS: Got around 10 or 15 sauces.

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: The newest…the newest sauce that I'm working on would be a Carolina white sauce. Carolina is known for that fruit flavor for peaches and things of that nature. 

MARY: Right. 

CHRIS: So imagine taking your traditional yum yum sauce mixed in with a little bit of fruit. 

MARY: Oh yeah. 

CHRIS: And we're working on that and actually combining the smoked brisket and pulled pork with fried rice with that yum yum sauce. 

MARY: Oh my gosh. My mouth is watering.  

CHRIS: So, yeah. Look for us on Tik Tok soon.

MARY: Yeah, there you go. When we were in the… we were in Greenville Starts cohort together, and the first time I tasted Chris's sauce, I was like, “Chris, you need to call this the best damn sauce ever.” 

CHRIS: That is actually the slogan. “The best damn sauce you’ve ever had.” 

MARY: Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

CHRIS: I tell people… I'm trying to be humble, but when you have something that's different, you have to let people know. 

MARY: Exactly. 

CHRIS: And this is when you taste it, it just… it kind of shocks you because you're not… you’re thinking barbecue sauce.

 MARY: Totally.

 CHRIS: But it kind of just catches you… you're like what is this?

 MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And it just kind of sucks you in. 

MARY:  Well, and I think you just said it correct. You're taking a space that is so kind of entrenched in kind of the flavors that are there. And you're creating something new with the idea of barbecue. And I love that. Can you talk us through the process of creating this business because I guess you started with the smoking first and then the sauces and then where are you… how, you know…do you have a website? Do you have a restaurant? How are you coming together?  

CHRIS: What we're doing now is… So this is how I initially started out. I was at my desk at Ford one day having a conversation with someone that asked me about catering. 

MARY:Yeah. 

CHRIS: So I hopped online, in between calls, looking at what I had to do to get started so I went online, I got my EIN…and kind of got in touch with state and got everything going.

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: That was in 2016. So for the last three years off and on, I've done a lot of catering. A lot of on site. My biggest thing is on site grilling.

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: I put on quite a show when I grill. 

MARY: I mean you can tell with his personality. You're the entertainment and the food. 

CHRIS: So yeah, if you’re looking for an entertainer and a grill master, I’m your guy. So we… that's my big thing is I travel, I take my grill, I like to set up shop. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And I also work with… I've been working… I had been working before I took my current job with the church during the Wednesday night Bible studies. I'm big on… like I said my dad is a Baptist preacher. 

MARY: Right.

CHRIS: So we grew up in the country and all I know is fellowship and eating. I've probably eaten in every county in the state. 

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: Every, every type of food you can have, but those experiences is what inspired me. But long story short, the business idea and the model came from just three years of having to stop and go because working back and forth, and now learning how to balance time, family, and everything. The Mr. Sauce It Up will give me the opportunity to kind of work and service people and enjoy it and also make my first big shine through Mr. Sauce It Up. 

MARY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about… because entrepreneurial, you know, ventures are, it's a journey, right? And I know we all have setbacks, and I know that you've had some setbacks, including a health setback for a while that kind of made everything go on pause. So how are you doing now? And let's talk about the setbacks and how you overcame them. 

CHRIS: Oh, wow. So it’s crazy the night that we had our finale. Our, you know, our big pitch. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: I found out I had a nodule on my thyroid that they had to go in and remove. They thought it was small, but it ended up being like the size of a baseball.

MARY: Wow.

CHRIS: So it sat on my chest and it kind of impacted me. Dealing with things like that… it impacts…your thyroid is your gas and keeps you going.

MARY: Yeah, yeah. 

CHRIS: So for like the last three years, I've ran on nothing but adrenaline and you didn't know it. So it's taken me a little… little bit of time to adjust to being normal and not having that excess energy and just you know being actually knowing what it feels like to be tired and having to take a nap.

MARY: Right.

CHRIS: So for the last six, you know, part of that I ran on you know pretty much adrenaline because the thyroid and I were back balanced. Kind of and it… but it gave me an opportunity to really sit back and refocus and re-  kind of gave me a bigger hunger for what I want to do. I've looked at food trucks, and things like that, but a crazy and a funny fact about me is I've had 22 wrecks in my lifetime.

 MARY: 22 wrecks?

CHRIS: 22 automobile accidents. 

MARY: Oh my goodness, Chris.

CHRIS: So me driving a food truck probably nobody around here wants. 

MARY: They don’t mix. 

CHRIS: That’s not a good mix so I'm in the process of trying to find a building either…. I would prefer Greenville, but the Spartanburg area is also something I'm open to… to certainly barbecue out of. But until then, I'm gonna let myself and also cakes and sweet potato pies… 

MARY: Yeah. Oh my god. Sweet potato pies. 

CHRIS: …kind of feed my business and my picture while I kind of work my nine to five and do your day in and day out thing. 

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: The struggle. You know, being an entrepreneur… it takes a… you got to have a little bit of crazy in you to be an entrepreneur. But the biggest thing you have to have to be an entrepreneur is being resilient. 

MARY: Yes.

CHRIS: You never know what obstacles are gonna come your way. I never expected and never thought I was sick

MARY: Right. You had no idea. 

CHRIS: I had no idea. You know, and even through it, you got to, you know, one of the mottos I live off of is fake it till you make it. 

MARY: Right. 

CHRIS: You got to go into every day, no matter what's going on, with a smile on your face, press through. And you kind of put it behind you and live in that moment because you never know life can be taken from you at any given moment. So you got to enjoy it no matter what's going on. And that's what's kind of helped me evolve and get to the point that I'm at now. And for me, I've learned you know, when things are going… when things are going at their best is when things…your biggest hurdles are going to come.

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: For me, I spent all last year partnering with people and creating a lot of partnerships I kind of had to give up. So to kind of reinvent myself and roll back out and rebrand as Mr. Sauce It Up, it’s going to be really exciting and I think it's the right way and path to go. The biggest thing I can tell other entrepreneurs is don't be stubborn. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: For a whole course, through Greenville Starts, everybody told me, “it’s the sauce, it’s the sauce, it’s the sauce.”

 MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: And I love cooking. I love grilling. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And a couple of weeks ago… I'd say a couple of months ago, it finally dawned on me “Hey, you've got a product that nobody else can do.”

MARY: Right.

CHRIS: This is your…this is your headline and this is your angle. I'll still grill and barbecue and do barbecue and whatnot. But…I have a gift that I gotta give the world.  

MARY: Right. That's your foot in the door -  think the barbecue, but the sauce is so scalable. I mean it gives me goosebumps just thinking about where you could go and seeing this on grocery store shelves. I mean it really does.

CHRIS: That’s my ultimate goal. My ultimate goal is to…

MARY: I mean I literally just got goosebumps. 

CHRIS: We've got here in Greenville…we've got we've got the Duke’s manufacturing. I want to have something similar to that here just pumping out sauce so hopefully when you’re getting you know your Chick fil A… go to McDonald's get a sauce packet, and you’ll see my pretty face on it.

MARY: I love it. I love it. And you said some really good things about there in that comment about being resilient and not being stubborn. And I think being willing to go with the flow because I know you were in talks about a space right when you got sick. And so every… I mean literally everything went on hold. 

CHRIS: So with the space…this is another thing that when in the restaurant business, it's a risky business…

MARY: It is. 

CHRIS: For me, the biggest thing is finding people that want to invest and that will roll the dice on a restaurant.

MARY: And that's true for all restaurant owners. 

CHRIS: That’s been the biggest challenge, but the buildings I looked at have been highly competitive. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: I looked at a property in Duncan… was looking at property in Duncan and somebody came in at the last minute and outbid me by like 30 grand. 

MARY: Right. Wow. 

CHRIS: And being in finance and being the underwriter you… the risk… I'm very careful if that’s the risk I take and I evaluate it making sure I’m making solid decisions. 

MARY: And you understand that risk. 

CHRIS: Yeah, because being in business for yourself, is a risk alone.

MARY: Absolutely.

CHRIS: You don’t want your business upside down and trying to make back money that you may not be able to get back. That’s not a wise move so we kind of backed off a bit. And it's been a blessing because like I said had I got into it then, gotten sick, we would have been in a worse situation. So thankfully, we got into a position where we're able to press pause and my true belief is that when my opportunity and my time is there, it's gonna happen but until then we're just gonna keep doing what we have to do. 

MARY: One hundred percent. One hundred percent. So what's been the most rewarding thing about starting this venture for you?

CHRIS: Networking and meeting new people. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: And to be honest with you, the other thing people don't know about me is I’m kind of shy. 

MARY: I don’t believe that for a minute. Because the first night we were in Greenville Starts together, I mean, we clicked, obviously but…but yeah, no. But you, probably like me, I have to overcome it when I'm with people. Once I get there, I'm fine. 

CHRIS: So I guess you can say my shyness comes out different. When I get nervous and get shy, it's like lights on, like camera on, game on, let's go. So you never really know it. So I embrace it. And being able to… this has taught me how to fight through that and how it really… I guess having a good time meeting new people and the biggest thing I think I'd say is just learn. Being an entrepreneur has taught me so much and it has stretched my limits. And so when I was younger, I was a hothead.

MARY: I believe that. 

CHRIS: Something happened… something happened and I'm, you know, fired up.

MARY:  Right.

CHRIS: So for instance, a couple of weeks ago, my first time back out and I go to leave and my grill catches a flat tire. 

MARY: Oh, no. Yeah. 

CHRIS: And the old me would have been saying Sunday School words and throwing stuff and all upset. We just pressed pause and regrouped and it has made me grow and develop patience. And understand that some things you cannot control. If you can't control it, you just move on. 

MARY: I would think that this entrepreneurial process that you're on, and that health scare, that major health scare, probably both had something to do with that kind of, okay, it does no good to get upset about this stuff, just deal with it one thing at a time.

CHRIS: Well there's another factor in there also. I’ve got a grandson now. 

MARY: Oh yes, that's true. Happy Grandfather. 

CHRIS: So, being a grand dad, it kind of…I would say the moment I took my daughter to the hospital. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: Got the call. I had to take her to the hospital. That's when life changed. 

MARY: Yeah. 

CHRIS: We just kind of… I don't know it’s something about having a grandchild that you can give back to them. 

MARY: Right. 

CHRIS: It kind of changes you. At the same time, it just shows your new appreciation for life. So all of that within the three month period, it really has slowed me down… made me appreciate life even more. But at the same time, it's made me a fighter. It's really made me a fighter and made me... 

MARY: Yeah, because you want to be around for him.

CHRIS: Yeah, to be honest with you, this whole get up, I've thought about for the last four years. 

MARY: Yeah, this is what it's gonna look like.

CHRIS: Yeah. And going through that experience gave me the courage to kind of step out of the shell and put it out there and move forward because what's the worst thing that can happen? Somebody will laugh at you?

MARY: Right. Exactly. 

CHRIS: You know at the end of the day, this is who I am. 

MARY: And who cares? If they’re laughing at you, they’re looking at you? 

CHRIS: They’re looking at you. They’re going to remember. 

MARY: Right. 

CHRIS: This is who I am. A little country guy from South Carolina just trying to sell some good barbecue and sauce. 

MARY: Yeah, I love it. Chris, I love it. So we were, like I said we were in the Greenville cohort, Greenville starts cohort together, and for those of you may not know that's like an eight week program where the participants could expose everything from, you know, fundraising, capital to legal issues and things that of course, you're not an expert in everything, right? And so we learned so much to marketing. I mean, you name it, we touched on it in that class. What were some of the takeaways from that that you are implementing now? Almost a year later.

 

CHRIS: Want to hear a good story?

MARY: Yeah always.

 CHRIS: It kind of goes with the question you asked me previously about my experience.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: Do you remember the night that we wrote the breakup letter?

 MARY: Yes. We had to write a breakup letter to our business. And you know, you're the second person to bring this up in these conversations, but his breakup letter was amazing. But go ahead.

 CHRIS: I lived my breakup letter this year. And that night, the night that we had read that letter out loud and share that experience…

 MARY: Yeah.  

CHRIS: I lived it this year. And going through it and living it and seeing your dreams kind of, let's just say be taken away. 

MARY: Yeah, yeah. 

CHRIS: It makes you appreciate your gifts and it makes you appreciate what you did. So, without Greenville Starts, I probably wouldn't have pushed through this year. I probably would have gave up and just gone back to working the nine to five and just you know enjoy life but my experience with Greenville Starts and having to, you know, go through a made breakup with something that you love and then having to go through it actually, it kind of gave you…I can go back and I can remember some of the speeches that the speakers gave. I will say it gave me motivation and courage and more than anything else it taught me that I'm not a know it all. I've worked in the banking industry for years as a banker and on the other side of the fence, telling people no to loans and being actually on the opposite end of it - trying to be approved, trying to get all your documents together gives you a whole new appreciation for what people on the other side go through. We've been on both sides. I have an appreciation for both now. But I will say that Greenville Starts… it gave me the courage to bounce back and gave me that fight and it prepared me for the hurdles that were ahead. So if anybody in Greenville County has a business idea and they feel like they can make it, but their confidence is an issue, I would definitely recommend Greenville Starts. We have the all-American, the GOAT, the great, the best hair, Brian Davis. He just…has a way of inspiring…inspiring you. Like just…any of our cohorts, I think about you guys and where you're at and I see your successes and it motivates you. You see other people being successful and that pushes you on.

 MARY: One hundred percent. Which is the whole reason we do this podcast is to share your all’s stories with the public so that we can encourage other people to go ahead and follow their dreams and create their ventures, you know, and I mean, you talk about Greenville Starts being an inspiration, you're an inspiration to, I know our entire cohort.

 CHRIS: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I think, you know, God puts you in a certain place at a certain time. And I think I feel like that was a perfect time because like going into it, I'll be honest with you toward the end of class I kind of felt like something was off. It drained me. It drained me. It put me… I don't like talking about this aspect of it, but it impacted my mental health. 

MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: It gave me some anxiety and put me in a depressive state and it you know, that's not me.

MARY: Right.

CHRIS: One hundred miles per hour, 100 days a week.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: So at the end of the class, it was like okay, what we got going on? And you guys really pushed us through. It's like a family. It's not just like a class. It's not just like a group of people. It feels like family and a cheerleader group.

 MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: I've coached football, played football. I love sports and I love that team aspect. And that's what it felt like. Each week it wasn't a competition against each other. It was a way that we can push each other…push each other to make each other better. It's been a year and a half now. And when you can go back and recall specific conversations and specifics in a needed time, that's when you know it had an impact on you. That's what Greenville Starts said to me.

 MARY: Yeah.

CHRIS: It put a lot of information in this encyclopedia up here.

 MARY: Yeah. I love that. I love that. What advice do you have to other entrepreneurs that you… either from Greenville Starts or just your personal experience?

 CHRIS: I’m going to steal one from Ted Lasso.

 MARY: Okay.

 CHRIS: The great Ted Lasso. You got to believe. And what he also says…that's number one is believe.You got to believe in yourself. You got to believe in the process and you got to trust, you know, that the good Lord put you in a position he gave you whatever gifts that you have for a reason. And you have to follow the plan in your process. When things get hard, you got to go harder.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: And when things get easy, you got to kind of scratch your head and say, why is that so easy and know that something's coming.

MARY: Right. Be prepared.

 CHRIS: Be prepared because something’s around the corner. The other thing is, I'm a Florida State fan. And the reason I'm a Florida State fan is because of…He talked about a lot about what you do when people aren't watching.

 MARY: Yes.

 CHRIS: And as an entrepreneur… it’s what you're doing behind the scenes and when people aren't watching is what's going to make you successful. You know, the… you know, I cook a brisket 26 hours for it to be gone in 30 minutes.

 MARY: Right.

 CHRIS: So it’s what I do behind the scenes and the effort and what people don't see is what makes you a great entrepreneur and a great… and great at what you do. And the last is something I learned from a guy named Tom Leopard back in 2012. Your priorities. As an entrepreneur, you have to have your priorities in order. It’s got to be your faith, your family, and your fortune. If those three get out of whack at any point in time, it's time to step back, reevaluate, and bring them back in line and then things will start flowing so greatly. So always remember your faith, your family, and then you're fortune and as long as those three are aligned, you can always be successful and bounce back.

 MARY: I love that. The three F's.

 CHRIS: The three F’s.

 MARY: I love it. So you brought some… before we let you go, you brought some goodies for us. So, boy, I wish people…I wish we had smellivision because that cake smells so good. Oh my gosh. So Chris, what do we have here? This is one of the cakes that you do.

 CHRIS: This is my spin on a…You lived in Kentucky?

 MARY: I did not live in Kentucky.

 CHRIS: I don’t know why I thought you lived in Kentucky. So, this is my take on a Kentucky butter cake.

 MARY: Okay.

 CHRIS: So I call it a Carolina butter cake.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: It's a pound cake with some secret flavors.

 MARY: Okay.

 CHRIS: As all things as Mr. Sauce It Up does, we also do cake glazes.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: So this has a pineapple. No, I'm sorry…a peach mango rum glaze to it.

 MARY: Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is going to be so good.

 CHRIS: Mixed in butter. Something I came up with. I am the king of taking a recipe and turning it into my own.

MARY: Right.

 CHRIS: So, that's what I do the best. I don't… You know, if I go out to eat I'm probably going to take two… two combos, two meals and turn it into one.

 MARY: And put them together.

 CHRIS: So this is kind of what I’ve done with this and created my own flavor, but I feel pretty confident, I’m willing to bet you a $1 to your paycheck that you’ve never had a flavor like this.

 MARY: All right, let's see it.

 CHRIS: Let's see. Let me pull out my Dexter knife.

 MARY: He’s going to pull out his Dexter knife. Oh yeah, that’s a Dexter knife. All right. All right. All right, let's cut into this sucker. So remind me again what the glaze is?

 CHRIS: This is a peach mango with a hint of rum.

 MARY: Okay.

 CHRIS: And some other stuff that I can't really share with you at the time. I'll share with you at the time.

 MARY: Right let's go. Cheers.

 CHRIS: Cheers.

 MARY: Oh my gosh.

 CHRIS: Mmm. Mama where you at? Come on over here, get smacked.

 MARY: That is so good. Did you say mama come on over here, get smacked?

 CHRIS: Come on over. Come on over.

 MARY: Oh yeah. So, we’re going to have to change that phrase, well or add to it…the best damn sauce…the best damn glaze…because this is good stuff.

 CHRIS: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

 MARY: Oh my goodness. Alright. So again, we'll have the links to how you get in touch with Chris wherever we're posting this podcast, both on YouTube and all of our podcast channels. Just look under the copy, the body copy. And you'll see that there because you… if you are having an event, you want to hire Chris to cater that event. Again, it’s the entertainment and food. You can't beat that.

CHRIS: Let me tell you.

 MARY: Yeah.

 CHRIS: I didn’t mean to interrupt, but this cake is good.

 MARY: It does taste good.

 CHRIS: It tastes good. I’m a pound cake foodie and I think I've found something here.

 MARY: I think you have too.

 CHRIS: Not to brag, but yeah.

 MARY: I think…I can’t put it down. I got to finish eating so I can say the rest of the show so I can close the show out. Oh my gosh. So good. Alright. How do people get in touch with you if they want to get some sauce or they want you to cater an event?

 CHRIS: Cater an event. You can find me on Facebook - Chris Sexton or Sexton’s Smoke-N- Grill. Also on Instagram, it’s Chris Sexton or Sexton’s Smoke-N-Grill. Email me at sextonssmokengrill@gmail.com. www.sextonssmokengrill.com. And that's just Sexton’s, Smoke, the letter “n”, grill.com. Or you can call me 864-680-4629. We got the sauces.

 MARY: Alright, Chris, thank you so much.

 CHRIS: Thank you. Anytime. Anytime.

 MARY: So remember, if someone you know is an entrepreneur or has an idea, Greenville Starts is a great place for them to get started or if they're somewhere in the process along the way and they just need that little extra “umph” to learn things that they don't necessarily know, then that's a great place. So, in order to get into the next cohort, all you have to do is Google Greenville Starts and Furman and it should be the very first link that pops up and get yourself on that list.

 The other thing I wanted to remind everybody of is that we have the Paladin Pitch competition, which if you are a Furman student, you can win $10,000 for your venture. That's coming up in April, but you have to participate in some pitch competitions before that. So, contact the Hill Institute, get your pitch to them and start working and then from all those pitches throughout the year, they'll choose the finalists to pitch in April. So be thinking about that, be brainstorming. If you want to do something, now is the time to do it.

So, that does it for this episode of the Class E Podcast. I'm your host Mary Sturgilll. Remember this podcast is brought to you through a partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. It is produced by student producers, Kayla Patterson and Eliza Polich, a true example of the Furman Advantage. And remember, you can get this podcast two ways now - you can listen to it wherever you listen to your podcast, we also have a YouTube channel where you can watch it and you can see this beautiful cake that we just ate and see us eating it. And we also.. follow us on Tik Tok if you're on Tik Tok because we just started a brand new Tik Tok channel and you'll see a lot of the outtakes and a lot of cool stuff on behind the scenes stuff on that Tik Tok channel. Until next time everybody, dream big.