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    The role of AI in product development | Ryan J. Salva (VP of Product at GitHub, Copilot)

    enSeptember 04, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • GitHub's Arctic Code Vault: Storing Open-Source Code for Thousands of Years and Enabling Real-Time Code AutocompletionGitHub's Arctic Code Vault stores open-source code on silver film to preserve for thousands of years. OpenAI has used this to build machine learning models for real-time code autocompletion, which has led to challenges with the launch of GitHub Copilot.

      GitHub has created an Arctic Code Vault which preserves open-source code on silver film for thousands of years.This snapshot of public repositories has been given to OpenAI, which has built machine learning models to autocomplete code for engineers in real-time as they work.One of the products this has incubated is GitHub Copilot, which has been launched with surprising ethical, scaling, and business model challenges.The Copilot project emerged from a small research and development team in Microsoft, teaching how big bets can be brought from prototype to Microsoft scale.AG1 from Athletic Greens is a product which absorbs 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens.

    • The Power of Creativity in Software DevelopmentRyan Salva, VP of Product at GitHub, believes in the power of creativity to bring people together. He moved from Microsoft to GitHub to help people create and collaborate on code through repositories, making a significant impact on the software development community.

      Ryan J.Salva, VP of Product at GitHub, has a background in philosophy and English.He is interested in how people communicate through creativity and how to convey our experiences of the world to others.He got into software development and product management because he wanted to be involved in the business of creativity.He made the move from Microsoft to GitHub because he saw the potential of GitHub in bringing developers together to collaborate on code through repositories.He is motivated by helping people create and saw that working at GitHub would give him the largest impact.

    • Introducing GitHub Copilot: The AI-Powered Code CompanionGitHub Copilot revolutionizes software development with AI-driven autocomplete suggestions that save time and boost productivity. It uses CodeX analysis to generate code templates, enabling developers to focus on creativity instead of typing.

      GitHub Copilot is an AI-powered tool that offers multi-line autocomplete suggestions to developers while they code, helping them stay in flow and focus on creating instead of typing.It uses an AI model called CodeX, which analyzes variables, class names, and methods to infer what the developer intends to create and provide a code template for them to riff on.Copilot is a huge improvement from simple, intelligent autocomplete and saves time for developers who no longer have to constantly check documentation or look up tutorials.Copilot is a game-changer for software development and has become one of the most magical and addictive products to use.

    • AI-powered Copilot simplifies coding, assists with unfamiliar languages.Copilot provides an AI-powered solution to common coding challenges like working with unfamiliar languages and code bases. With its mental map and contextual insight, it makes coding simpler and more accessible.

      The use of Copilot, an AI-powered tool, is making it easier for people to learn to code by providing guidance in building real solutions to problems.Copilot is particularly helpful in wading into unfamiliar code bases and working with programming languages that individuals may not be familiar with.Copilot collects context on the code base and provides a mental map for the user.The conceptions for Copilot began as an extension of Microsoft and OpenAI's collaboration on large language models, which are being used to expand the capabilities of AI to include programming languages.

    • OpenAI collaborates with GitHub to create Copilot for inline auto-complete.OpenAI used data from GitHub's Arctic Code Vault to create Copilot, which provides inline autocomplete for developers. This collaboration between OpenAI and GitHub has resulted in an efficient user experience after 16 months of experimentation.

      OpenAI cloned GitHub's repositories to harvest data, which is a legitimate practice but had consequences for GitHub due to the high amount of requests.So, GitHub provided OpenAI with a data snapshot of public repositories that they had preserved in an Arctic Code Vault.OpenAI used this data to create large language models that allowed for translation and predictive text in programming languages.After experimenting with different user experiences, they came up with Copilot, which provides inline autocomplete for developers.This process took about 16 months, from OpenAI almost taking down GitHub to the creation of the user experience of Copilot.

    • Developing Copilot: Experimenting with Parameters and Prompt CraftingThe team behind Copilot spent time experimenting with parameters to optimize developers' workflow. They found a sweet spot of 200 milliseconds for model suggestions and developed "prompt crafting" to prompt useful responses.

      The team behind Copilot had to experiment with thousands of parameters to create a model that would optimize developers' workflow.One of the key factors they had to consider was the amount of time a user would have to wait for the model's suggestions, with the team finding that 200 milliseconds was the sweet spot.Additionally, they had to experiment with how to prompt the model to return useful responses, which led them to develop what they call "prompt crafting." The team working on Copilot was part of GitHub's "Next" team, which focuses on creating second and third horizon projects that may not yield meaningful results for several years.

    • Creating Space for Innovation at GitHubTo drive big innovations in a company, create a dedicated team for exploring new ideas. Allow them the freedom to experiment and identify novel solutions, then gradually transition viable projects to the larger organization.

      GitHub has a team dedicated to exploring and working on horizon two and horizon three projects that are separate from EPD (engineering, product, and design).This team has the freedom to be creative and experiment without the pressure of meeting fundamental requirements upfront.When they identify an idea that solves a problem in a novel way, they begin market testing and gradually transition it to the EPD team.Companies looking to invest in big moonshots within a larger organization should attract smart people, give them the opportunity to be creative, and only transition their ideas to be monetized when there is clear evidence of solving a customer problem.

    • Ensuring a Smooth and Balanced Integration for R&D and Product TeamsIn order to smoothly transition R&D projects into operational products, it is important to ensure that the entire team is involved and that the roadmap is delegated to the product team. It is also essential to maintain a balance between engineering fundamentals and research visions, and to consider ethical and legal challenges when dealing with AI. One helpful approach is to view AI as an AI pair programmer, with two developers working together to solve problems.

      To successfully transition an R&D project into an operational product, it is important to bring the entire team along and delegate the roadmap to the product team.Moving researchers back into their R&D team should be based on the replacement in seat, who has picked up all the necessary skills.Engineering fundamentals are critical and a mix of engineers who can maintain the service and researchers who can bring vision to the idea is important.When dealing with AI, ethical and legal challenges must also be considered.Framing AI as an AI pair programmer can be useful, with two developers working together to solve a problem.

    • Developing Effective AI for a Positive Programmer ExperienceThe Copilot AI programmer should enhance, not distract from a developer's work. AI models are evolving to accurately detect and edit out offensive content, creating a better work environment for developers.

      The Copilot AI pair programmer needs to be appropriate and not distracting to developers.The product team creates principles or guidelines for the developer experience by having conversations with legal, privacy and security champions, and actual developers.They created a block list of words to edit out offensive content, but this can be tricky and not always effective.The team partnered with the Azure Department of a Responsible AI to create better AI models that can detect offensive content more accurately than a simple block list.The team aims to create an experience that benefits developers and does not cause any offensive instances like the negative bot incident from Microsoft.

    • The Emergence of AI in the Development Process.AI is being integrated into the development process to reduce the repetitive task of coding. Copilot is just the beginning, with AI managing build queues and summarizing changes. This will allow developers to focus on creative problem-solving.

      AI is becoming increasingly integrated into the development stack and may eventually alleviate the drudgery associated with coding.Currently, Copilot represents just the beginning of a trend in which AI is relied upon for managing build queues or summarizing commit message changes, allowing developers to focus on creative acts.Though there are challenges with the disruption of supply chains for the rare and unique GPUs Copilot requires, the vision for AI integration in the development process is to create a layer of abstraction and provide more opportunities for people to become developers while experienced developers can focus on larger problems and creativity.

    • Building trust through dialogue and skepticismCopilot, GitHub's AI tool, is meant to augment developers' work, not replace them. Engaging with the community and prioritizing responsible and ethical use is critical for AI technology.

      GitHub's AI tool, Copilot, has faced challenges in gaining community trust due to concerns over ethical use and potential harm.The product team has had to scale up to address these concerns and have engaged in dialogue with the community to ensure responsible use of the technology.The team emphasizes that Copilot is not meant to replace developers or other measures for producing quality code, but rather to augment their work and enable them to focus on more creative tasks.The importance of dialogue and skepticism, as emphasized in the product manager's education in philosophy and literature, plays a critical role in building trust and ensuring ethical use of AI technology.

    • Balancing Innovation and Incremental Progress in Team ManagementTo achieve a balance between innovative projects and existing product improvements, allocate roughly 5-10% of resources to bold research and 25-30% to operations, focusing the remainder on iterative improvements. "Make It So," "Brief Interviews with Hideous Men," "The Memory Palace," and "Arrival" offer valuable insights.

      When managing a team, it's important to balance bold and experimental research with incremental progress on existing products.Roughly 5-10% of the team's capacity should be reserved for uncertain bets, while 25-30% should be dedicated to operations and the remainder towards iterative improvements on end market products.At startups, the focus is on that one big bet.As for book recommendations, "Make It So" explores user experience through sci-fi references and "Brief Interviews with Hideous Men" offers a collection of short stories about villainous characters.Ryan J.Salva recommends "The Memory Palace" podcast for great storytelling, and the movie "Arrival" for its exploration of language and memory.

    • The Icebreaker Question That Helps Product Managers Hire Top CandidatesDuring interviews, product manager Ryan J. Salva asks candidates to teach him something new in one minute, grading them on completeness, complexity, and clarity. His most interesting hire taught him about 18th century art's connection to religious trends.

      Ryan J.Salva, a product manager, asks an interesting icebreaker question during interviews to early to mid career candidates, asking them to teach him something new in one minute.He grades them based on three criteria: completeness, complexity, and clarity.The most interesting thing someone taught him was about 18th century art and its connection to religious trends at the time, and he eventually hired her.Ryan is affiliated with Copilot, which offers a 60-day free trial, and he is eager to receive feedback from users on their experience.You can find him on Twitter, GitHub and LinkedIn, under Ryan J.Salva.

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    The social radar: Y Combinator’s secret weapon | Jessica Livingston (co-founder of Y Combinator, author, podcast host)

    The social radar: Y Combinator’s secret weapon | Jessica Livingston (co-founder of Y Combinator, author, podcast host)

    Jessica Livingston is a co-founder of Y Combinator, the first and most successful startup accelerator. Y Combinator has funded over 5,000 companies, 200 of which are now unicorns, including Airbnb, Dropbox, DoorDash, Stripe, Coinbase, and Reddit. Jessica played a crucial role in YC’s early success, when she was nicknamed the “social radar” because of her uncanny ability to quickly evaluate people—an essential skill when investing in early-stage startups. She’s also the host of the popular podcast The Social Radars, where she interviews billion-dollar-startup founders, and the author of the acclaimed book Founders at Work, which captures the origin stories of some of today’s most interesting companies. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • How Jessica gained the affectionate title of the “social radar”

    • Why defensive founders are a red flag

    • How to develop your social radar

    • What she looks for in founders during YC interviews

    • How YC’s early inexperience in angel investing led to the batch model

    • Her favorite stories from interviews with Airbnb, Rippling, and more

    • Lessons learned from hosting her own podcast

    • Much more

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-social-radar-jessica-livingston

    Where to find Jessica Livingston:

    • X: https://x.com/jesslivingston

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicalivingston1/

    • Podcast: https://www.thesocialradars.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Jessica’s background

    (02:42) Thoughts on being under-recognized

    (07:52) Jessica’s superpower: the social radar

    (15:11) Evaluating founders: key traits and red flags

    (21:00) The Airbnb story: a lesson in hustle and determination

    (25:57) A YC success story

    (28:26) The importance of earnestness

    (32:45) Confidence vs. defensiveness

    (34:43) Commitment and co-founder disputes

    (37:46) Relentless resourcefulness

    (40:00) Jessica’s social radar: origins and insights

    (43:24) Honing her social radar skills

    (45:44) Conviction and scams: a Y Combinator story

    (46:50) The interview process: challenges and insights

    (48:20) Operationalizing founder evaluation

    (49:38) Advice for building social radar skills

    (52:08) The “Reading the Mind in the Eyes” quiz

    (55:19) Jessica’s podcast: The Social Radars

    (01:00:34) Lessons from podcasting and interviewing

    (01:09:58) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Paul Graham’s post about Jessica: https://paulgraham.com/jessica.html

    • Paul Graham on X: https://x.com/paulg

    • Robert Tappan Morris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Tappan_Morris

    • Trevor Blackwell on X: https://x.com/tlbtlbtlb

    • Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/

    • “The Founders” examines the rise and legend of PayPal: https://www.economist.com/culture/2022/02/19/the-founders-examines-the-rise-and-legend-of-paypal

    • Patrick Collison on X: https://x.com/patrickc

    • John Collison on X: https://x.com/collision

    • Brian Chesky on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianchesky/

    • Nate Blecharczyk on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blecharczyk/

    • Joe Gebbia on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jgebbia/

    • Airbnb’s CEO says a $40 cereal box changed the course of the multibillion-dollar company: https://fortune.com/2023/04/19/airbnb-ceo-cereal-box-investors-changed-everything-billion-dollar-company/

    • Parker Conrad on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/parkerconrad/

    • Zenefits: https://connect.trinet.com/hr-platform

    • Goat: https://www.goat.com/

    • Eddy Lu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eddylu/

    • Drew Houston on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drewhouston/

    • Arash Ferdowsi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arashferdowsi/

    • Lessons from 1,000+ YC startups: Resilience, tar pit ideas, pivoting, more | Dalton Caldwell (Y Combinator, Managing Director): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-1000-yc-startups

    •Bitcoin launderer pleads guilty, admits to massive Bitfinex hack: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/03/new-york-man-admits-being-original-bitfinex-hacker-during-guilty-plea-in-dc-to-bitcoin-money-laundering.html

    • Paul Graham’s tweet with the facial recognition test: https://x.com/paulg/status/1782875262855663691

    • SmartLess podcast: https://www.smartless.com

    • Jason Bateman on X: https://x.com/batemanjason

    • Will Arnett on X: https://x.com/arnettwill

    • Sean Hayes on X: https://x.com/seanhayes

    • The Social Radars with Tony Xu, Co-Founder & CEO of DoorDash: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/Ja-tony-xu-co-founder-ceo-of-doordash

    • The Social Radars with Brian Chesky: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/JW-brian-chesky-co-founder-ceo-of-airbnb

    • The Social Radars with Patrick and John Collison: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/Kx-patrick-john-collison-co-founders-of-stripe

    • The Social Radars with Brian Armstrong: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/K3-brian-armstrong-co-founder-and-ceo-of-coinbase

    • The Social Radars with Emmett Shear: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/KM-emmett-shear-co-founder-of-twitch

    • The Social Radars with Paul Graham: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/JV-paul-graham-co-founder-of-y-combinator-and-viaweb

    • The Social Radars with Adora Cheung: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/L0-adora-cheung-co-founder-of-homejoy-instalab

    Founders at Work: Stories of Startups’ Early Days: https://www.amazon.com/Founders-Work-Stories-Startups-Early/dp/1430210788

    • Startup School: https://www.startupschool.org/

    • The Social Radars with Parker Conrad: https://www.ycombinator.com/library/Ky-parker-conrad-founder-of-zenefits-rippling

    • Rippling: https://www.rippling.com/

    Carry on, Jeeves: https://www.amazon.com/Carry-Jeeves-Dover-Thrift-Editions/dp/0486848957

    Very Good, Jeeves: https://www.amazon.com/Very-Good-Jeeves-Wooster-Book-ebook/dp/B0051GST06

    Right Ho, Jeeves: https://www.amazon.com/Right-Ho-Jeeves-P-Wodehouse-ebook/dp/B083FFDNHN/

    Life: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Keith-Richards-ebook/dp/B003UBTX72/

    My Name Is Barbra: https://www.amazon.com/My-Name-Barbra-Streisand/dp/0525429522

    Clarkson’s Farm on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Clarksons-Farm-Season-1/dp/B095RHJ52R

    Schitt’s Creek on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/schitts-creek-a2e7a946-9652-48a8-884b-3ea7ea4de273

    Yellowstone on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/stream-tv/yellowstone

    • Sam Altman on X: https://x.com/sama

    • Justin Kan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justinkan/

    • Alexis Ohanian on X: https://x.com/alexisohanian

    • Steve Huffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shuffman56/

    • Breaking News: Condé Nast/Wired Acquires Reddit: https://techcrunch.com/2006/10/31/breaking-news-conde-nastwired-acquires-reddit/

    • Charles River Venture: https://www.crv.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Making an impact through authenticity and curiosity | Ami Vora (CPO at Faire, ex-WhatsApp, FB, IG)

    Making an impact through authenticity and curiosity | Ami Vora (CPO at Faire, ex-WhatsApp, FB, IG)

    Ami Vora is the Chief Product Officer of Faire, which connects independent retailers and brands around the world. Before Faire, Ami spent over 15 years at Meta, including as VP of Product and Design for WhatsApp (2B+ users), VP of Product for Facebook’s ads system (now $130B of annual revenue), and director at Instagram. She began her career working on developer tools at Microsoft. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why execution eats strategy for breakfast

    • Using metaphor to rally teams around one shared goal

    • How to build cross-functional relationships

    • “Dinosaur brain,” “Toddler soccer,” and the “hill climbing” metaphors

    • A tactic for handling disagreement

    • Tips for working well with product-minded founders as a product leader

    • The story of Ami’s incredible 15-year journey from temp to VP at Meta

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers.

    Anvil—The fastest way to build software for documents.

    User Testing—Human understanding. Human experiences.

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/authenticity-and-curiosity-ami-vora

    Where to find Ami Vora:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amvora/

    • Substack: https://amivora.substack.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Ami’s background

    (02:00) The myth of perfection in success

    (07:55) Emotionally connecting with the job

    (09:55) Embracing curiosity in moments of challenge

    (13:16) Thinking in feedback loops

    (17:17) The “dinosaur brain” metaphor in product reviews

    (20:20) Strategies for conducting effective product reviews

    (26:33) Using metaphors and imagery to communicate your vision

    (29:35) The power of having a shared narrative

    (31:55) WhatsApp: an example of metaphor in action

    (34:44) Emulating people that inspire you

    (36:19) WhatsApp video calling

    (37:35) Why execution is greater than strategy

    (41:36) Time allotment for strategy vs. execution

    (45:10) How to become a better strategic thinker

    (47:59) The intricacies of implementing feedback

    (51:53) Being a female leader in tech

    (55:13) Advice for young women in tech

    (56:07) Setting goals and aligning incentives

    (01:01:40) Acknowledging hard truths

    (01:05:46) Lessons from transitioning to Faire

    (01:08:40) The importance of a good CPO/CEO relationship

    (01:11:17) Vetting heads of product and maintaining customer focus

    (01:12:40) How Ami went from intern to leading major products at Meta

    (01:14:53) The one thing you should do to be successful in product

    (01:17:25) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Faire: https://www.faire.com/

    • Making Meta | Andrew “Boz” Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto

    •  Community Wisdom: AMA with Dan Hockenmaier + Facilitating a roadmap session, structuring product teams, navigating an acquisition, companies not needing PMs anymore, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto

    • Developing a growth model + marketplace growth strategy | Dan Hockenmaier (Faire, Thumbtack, Reforge): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/developing-a-growth-model-marketplace

    • Dan Hockenmaier’s website: https://www.danhock.com/

    • On Reviews: https://boz.com/articles/reviews

    • Finding a global optimum always feels like a hill climb: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/amvora_finding-a-global-optimum-always-feels-like-activity-7074776143882588161-jhyy/

    • Dolores Park: https://sfrecpark.org/892/Mission-Dolores-Park

    • Rob Goldman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robgoldman/

    • Execution eats strategy for breakfast, but execution without strategy leads to burnout: https://rationalpm.substack.com/p/execution-eats-strategy-for-breakfast

    • The goal of a “strategy” is to change our own team’s behavior: https://amivora.substack.com/p/the-goal-of-a-strategy-is-to-change

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Path to Power course outline: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Pfeffer-OB377-Course-Outline-2018.pdf

    • Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey

    • Max Rhodes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/max-rhodes/

    • Coupa Coffee: https://www.coupacafe.com/

    • Brandee Barker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandeedbarker/

    Year of Yes: How to Dance It Out, Stand In the Sun and Be Your Own Person: https://www.amazon.com/Year-Yes-Dance-Stand-Person/dp/1476777128 

    • How to tell better stories | Matthew Dicks (Storyworthy): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-tell-better-stories-matthew-dicks-storyworthy/

    • A life of yes: Matthew Dicks at TEDxSomerville: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TaQFcaMk4

    The Office on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/stream-tv/the-office

    30 Rock on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/30-rock/6240863759978157112

    • Dall-E-2: https://openai.com/index/dall-e-2/

    • ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com

    • Fellow kettles: https://fellowproducts.com/products/stagg-ekg-electric-pour-over-kettle

    • TikTok’s “Roman Empire” Meme, Explained: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2023/09/21/tiktoks-roman-empire-meme-explained/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Hard-won lessons building 0 to 1 inside Atlassian | Tanguy Crusson (Head of Jira Product Discovery)

    Hard-won lessons building 0 to 1 inside Atlassian | Tanguy Crusson (Head of Jira Product Discovery)

    Tanguy Crusson is the product lead for Jira Product Discovery at Atlassian. In his more than 10 years at the company, he has been instrumental in taking several new products from zero to one, including HipChat, Statuspage, and Jira Product Discovery. In this episode, we dive deep into the struggles of innovating and building new products inside a large company. Tanguy shares candid stories about what worked, what didn’t, and his many hard-won lessons learned about how to successfully build 0 to 1. We cover:

    • Why large companies with so many advantages still fail at creating new products

    • Lessons learned from building HipChat

    • How to avoid common pitfalls like competitive myopia and premature scaling

    • Lessons learned from the acquisition and integration of Statuspage

    • Insights from the success of Jira Product Discovery

    • Tactics for protecting your “ugly babies”

    • The power of “lighthouse users”

    • The importance of having a “why now”

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-0-to-1-inside-atlassian-tanguy-crusson

    Where to find Tanguy Crusson:

    • X: https://x.com/tanguycrusson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanguy-crusson-99832a

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Tanguy’s background

    (02:30) Tanguy’s journey at Atlassian

    (07:03) The challenges of innovating in large companies

    (10:42) Atlassian's high bar for excellence 

    (12:58) The HipChat story: successes, failures, and lessons learned

    (20:47) Lessons learned from building HipChat

    (33:49) Statuspage: a journey of perseverance

    (39:48) Acquisition challenges and lessons

    (47:22) Strategic decisions: build, buy, or partner?

    (48:17) Learning to articulate "why now"

    (54:08) A quick summary of lessons in this episode

    (55:40) The success and pain of launching Jira Product Discovery 

    (58:10) Incubating new products: the Point A program

    (01:00:13) Failure is the most likely outcome

    (01:04:15) Atlassian's four-phase approach to launching new products

    (01:09:20) Breaking rules without breaking trust

    (01:16:16) Early success and team autonomy

    (01:17:22) Innovating without disrupting existing customers

    (01:23:17) The Lighthouse Users program

    (01:30:00) Protecting and nurturing new ideas

    (01:36:14) Balancing innovation with personal well-being

    (01:38:17) A reminder to look after yourself

    (01:42:06) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/

    • HipChat: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Hipchat/ct-p/hipchat

    • Stride: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Stride/ct-p/stride

    • Statuspage: https://www.atlassian.com/software/statuspage

    • Opsgenie: https://www.atlassian.com/software/opsgenie

    • Jira Product Discovery: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/product-discovery

    • HipChat billboard: https://x.com/HubSpot/status/654696998126272512

    • Announcing our new partnership with Slack: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership

    • Slack shows it’s worried about Microsoft Teams with a full-page newspaper ad: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13497766/slack-microsoft-teams-new-york-times-ad

    • What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html

    • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

    • Confluence: https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence

    • PagerDuty: https://www.pagerduty.com/

    • New Relic: https://newrelic.com/

    • BigPanda: https://www.bigpanda.io/

    • Transparent Uptime: http://www.transparentuptime.com/

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Figma: https://www.figma.com/

    • Lessons from Atlassian: Launching new products, getting buy-in, and staying ahead of the competition | Megan Cook (head of product, Jira): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-atlassian-launching

    • Noah Weiss on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahw/

    • Tanguy’s LinkedIn post about “lighthouse users”: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tanguy-crusson-99832a_lighthouse-users-one-of-the-pm-techniques-activity-7176654510801502210-hWNi/

    • Pixar Chief: Protect Your ‘Ugly Babies’ (Your Unsightly Ideas): https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyboynton/2014/03/17/pixar-chief-protect-your-ugly-babies-your-unsightly-ideas/

    • Atlas: https://www.atlassian.com/software/atlas

    • Point A: https://www.atlassian.com/point-a

    • Scott Farquhar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottfarquhar

    Who: A Method for Hiring: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Method-Hiring-HC-2008/dp/B004C79SRS/

    Hakim’s Odyssey: Book 1: From Syria to Turkey: https://www.amazon.com/Hakims-Odyssey-Book-Syria-Turkey/dp/1637790007

    Living with the Earth, Volume 1: Permaculture, Ecoculture: Inspired by Nature: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Earth-Gardeners-Permaculture-Ecoculture/dp/1856232603/

    • INRIA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Institute_for_Research_in_Computer_Science_and_Automation

    • How a Hydrofoil Works: https://web.mit.edu/2.972/www/reports/hydrofoil/hydrofoil.html

    • What Is Kitefoil or Foilboarding?: https://www.whenitswindy.com/wp/?page_id=534

    • Freediving: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving

    • Tanguy’s freediving stats: https://www.aidainternational.org/Athletes/Profile-00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000a45

    • Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB)

    The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB)

    Jeffrey Pfeffer teaches the single most popular (and somewhat controversial) class at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business: The Paths to Power. He’s also the author of 16 books, including 7 Rules of Power: Surprising—But True—Advice on How to Get Things Done and Advance Your Career. He has taught at Harvard, the London Business School, and IESE and has written for publications like Fortune and the Washington Post. Recognized by the Academy of Management and listed in the Thinkers50 Hall of Fame, Jeffrey also serves on several corporate and nonprofit boards, bringing his expertise to global audiences through seminars and executive education. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Jeffrey’s seven rules of power

    • How individuals can acquire and use power in business

    • Networking, and how to do it effectively

    • How to build a non-cringe personal brand

    • How to increase your influence to amplify your impact

    • Examples and stories of people building power

    • Tradeoffs and challenges that come with power

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    Where to find Jeffrey Pfeffer:

    • X: https://x.com/JeffreyPfeffer

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-pfeffer-57a01b6/

    • Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/

    • Podcast: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/pfeffer-on-power/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Jeffrey’s background 

    (02:54) Understanding discomfort with power

    (04:56) Power skills for underrepresented groups

    (07:51) The popularity and challenges of Jeffrey’s class at Stanford

    (12:21) The seven rules of power

    (13:03) Success stories from his course

    (15:43) Building a personal brand

    (21:11) Getting out of your own way

    (26:04) Breaking the rules to gain power

    (30:34) Networking relentlessly

    (40:10) Why Jeffrey says to “pursue weak ties”

    (42:00) Using your power to build more power

    (44:34) The importance of appearance and body language

    (47:15) Mastering the art of presentation

    (55:12) Examples of homework assignments that Jeffrey gives students

    (59:11) People will forget how you acquired power

    (01:03:58) More good people need to have power

    (01:10:49) The price of power and autonomy

    (01:17:13) A homework assignment for you

    Referenced:

    • Gerald Ferris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerald-r-ferris-5816b1b5/

    • Political Skill at Work: https://tarjomefa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/4173-engilish.pdf

    • Laura Esserman, MD: https://cancer.ucsf.edu/people/esserman.laura

    • Taylor Swift’s website: https://www.taylorswift.com/

    • Matthew 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=NIV

    • Mother Teresa quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2887-if-you-judge-people-you-have-no-time-to-love

    • Paths to Power course description: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Pfeffer-OB377-Course-Outline-2018.pdf

    7 Rules of Power: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/7-rules-of-power/

    The Knowing-Doing Gap: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/the-knowing-doing-gap/

    • Derek Kan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkan/

    • Mitt Romney on X: https://x.com/mittromney

    • Elaine Chao’s website: https://www.elainechao.com/

    • Tony Hsieh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hsieh

    • Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

    • How I Did It: Zappos’s CEO on Going to Extremes for Customers: https://hbr.org/2010/07/how-i-did-it-zapposs-ceo-on-going-to-extremes-for-customers

    • McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com/

    • Bain & Company: https://www.bain.com/

    • BCG: https://www.bcg.com/

    • Keith Ferrazzi’s website: https://www.keithferrazzi.com/

    • Deloitte: https://www2.deloitte.com/

    • Tristan Walker: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanwalker/

    • Foursquare: https://foursquare.com/

    • Laura Chau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-chau/

    • Canaan Partners: https://www.canaan.com/

    • Andreessen Horowitz: https://a16z.com/

    • Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/

    • Greylock: https://greylock.com/

    The Women Who Venture (WoVen) Podcast: https://www.canaan.com/woven/podcasts

    • Imposter syndrome: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/imposter-syndrome

    • Gary Loveman and Harrah’s Entertainment: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/gary-loveman-harrahs-entertainment

    • “If you need help, just ask”: Underestimating compliance with direct requests for help: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/if-you-need-help-just-ask-underestimating-compliance-direct-requests

    • Life story of Kathleen Frances Fowler: https://www.forevermissed.com/kathleenfowler/lifestory

    • Jason Calacanis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis/

    • Jason Calacanis: A Case Study in Creating Resources: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/jason-calacanis-case-study-creating-resources

    You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Connection, Trust, and Belonging: https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Invited-Science-Cultivating-Influence/dp/0063030977

    • View from the Top: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/experience/learning/guest-speakers/view-top

    • Omid Kordestani on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omid-kordestani-46515151/

    • Netscape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape

    •  Esther Wojcicki on LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/estherwojcicki/

    • Leanne Williams: https://med.stanford.edu/profiles/leanne-williams

    Precision Psychiatry: Using Neuroscience Insights to Inform Personally Tailored, Measurement-Based Care: https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Psychiatry-Neuroscience-Personally-Measurement-Based/dp/1615371583

    • Mark Granovetter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-granovetter-8161704/

    • The Strength of Weak Ties: https://snap.stanford.edu/class/cs224w-readings/granovetter73weakties.pdf

    Getting a Jobhttps://www.amazon.com/Getting-Job-Study-Contacts-Careers/dp/0226305813

    Acting with Power: https://www.amazon.com/Acting-Power-More-Powerful-Believe/dp/110190397X

    • Articles by Herminia Ibarra: https://herminiaibarra.com/articles/

    Kingdom of the Planet of the Ape: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11389872/

    • Jim Collins’s website: https://www.jimcollins.com/

    • Dana Carney on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danarosecarney/

    • Baba Shiv: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/faculty/baba-shiv

    • Tony Hayward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hayward

    • Lloyd Blankfein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Blankfein

    • Regis McKenna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regis_McKenna

    • Jack Valenti: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Valenti

    • Salman Rushdie quote: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/434175220328596286/

    • How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • Carole Robin’s 15% rule: https://pen-name.notion.site/Carole-Robin-on-Lenny-s-Podcast-dc7159208e4242428f4b11ebc92285eb

    • Karlie Kloss on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karliekloss

    • Lindsey Graham’s website: https://www.lindseygraham.com/

    • Was Microsoft’s Empire Built on Stolen Code? We May Never Know: https://www.wired.com/2012/08/ms-dos-examined-for-thef/

    • Who’s who of Jeffrey Epstein’s powerful friends, associates and possible co-conspirators: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/us/jeffrey-epstein-associates-possible-accomplices/index.html

    • Why Did Martha Stewart Go to Prison? A Look Back at Her 2004 Fraud Case: https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence-look-back-8550277

    • Dianne Feinstein: https://www.congress.gov/member/dianne-feinstein/F000062

    • Richard Blum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Blum

    • Athena Care Network: https://www.athenacarenetwork.org

    • James G. March: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._March

    • Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/

    • Trump Organization fined $1.6 million for tax fraud: https://apnews.com/article/politics-legal-proceedings-new-york-city-donald-trump-manhattan-e2f1d01525dafb64be8738c8b4f32085

    • Rudy Giuliani: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani

    • Harvard president resigns amid claims of plagiarism and antisemitism backlash: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/jan/02/harvard-president-claudine-gay-resigns

    • Stanford president resigns after fallout from falsified data in his research: https://www.npr.org/2023/07/19/1188828810/stanford-university-president-resigns

    • Rudy Crew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Crew

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member | Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze)

    Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member | Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze)

    Uri Levine is the co-founder of Waze, the world’s largest community-based traffic and navigation app, acquired by Google for over $1 billion. He’s also founded nine other companies, been on the board of 20 companies, and advised more than 50 companies. He’s most recently the author of Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs, hailed by Steve Wozniak as the “Bible for entrepreneurs.” Uri is dedicated to creating impactful startups that solve real-world problems and has seen everything from failure to moderate success to big success. In our conversation, we dig into:

    • Why falling in love with the problem is key to startup success

    • The phases of the startup journey and how to navigate them

    • Why firing is more important than hiring

    • How Waze iterated to achieve product-market fit

    • Tactics for telling a compelling story when fundraising

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-uri-levine

    Where to find Uri Levine:

    • X: https://twitter.com/urilevine1

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/uri-levine

    • Website: https://urilevine.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Uri’s background

    (02:50) Falling in love with the problem

    (09:03) Signs this is a big enough problem

    (10:54) The importance of passion

    (12:06) A pivot example

    (14:01) Where to find startup ideas

    (21:57) Finding product-market fit at Waze

    (29:45) The different phases of a startup journey

    (36:47) What investors don’t want to hear

    (39:53) Fundraising tips

    (48:02) How to make your presentations stronger

    (50:32) A wild fundraising story

    (53:46) Firing and hiring

    (59:50) The 30-day test

    (01:04:12) Understanding users

    (01:12:10) Talking to the right users

    (01:15:36) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs: https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Love-Problem-Solution-Entrepreneurs/dp/1637741987

    • Waze: https://www.waze.com/

    • Ben Horowitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behorowitz/

    • Ben Horowitz quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/1635284/Ben-Horowitz-As-a-startup-CEO-I-slept-like-a-baby-I-woke-up-every-2-hours-and-cried

    • Michael Jordan quote: https://www.forbes.com/quotes/11194/#:~:text=I've%20lost%20almost%20300,that%20is%20why%20I%20succeed.

    • Steph Curry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Curry

    • How Airbnb Used Word of Mouth to Change the Travel Industry Forever: https://truested.com/story/airbnb

    • Space Mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Mountain_(Disneyland)

    • How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellence

    • Steve Wozniak on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wozniaksteve/

    • Uri’s post about the conference in Guatemala with Steve Wozniak: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/uri-levine_jewishnewyear-speakers-book-activity-6980089544079486976-0ADa/

    • Leonardo da Vinci quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9010638-simplicity-is-the-ultimate-sophistication-when-once-you-have-tasted

    • Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead

    • Nana Korobi Ya Oki: https://ikigaitribe.com/vlog/nana-korobi-ya-oki/

    That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea: https://www.amazon.com/That-Will-Never-Work-Netflix/dp/0316530204

    Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299

    • 8 Great Chess Apps for Beginners and Grand Masters: https://www.wired.com/story/best-chess-apps/

    • Pontera: https://pontera.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO)

    Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO)

    Cameron Adams is the co-founder and chief product officer of Canva. Canva is one of the world’s most valuable private software companies, used by 95% of Fortune 500 companies. Since its launch in 2013, Canva has grown to over 150 million monthly users in more than 190 countries, generating $2.3 billion in annual revenue. Prior to Canva, Cameron ran a design consultancy, worked at Google on Google Wave, and founded the email startup Fluent. He is also an author of five web design books and a regular speaker at global conferences. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why they spent a year building their minimum viable product (MVP) before launch

    • Why Canva has no managers, and their unique approach to coaching and performance reviews

    • Why they encourage employees to “give away their Legos”

    • Insights into Canva’s SEO growth strategy

    • Their three-pillar framework for integrating AI into their product

    • Stories from the early days

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    Where to find Cameron Adams:

    • X: https://twitter.com/themaninblue

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/themaninblue

    • Website: https://themaninblue.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Cameron’s background

    (02:00) Reflecting on the success of Canva

    (04:50) Reflecting on hard times

    (10:01) Canva’s product-obsessed culture

    (12:02) Why they prioritize internal promotions and hires

    (13:56) What makes Canva unique

    (16:31) The concept of giving away your Legos

    (21:44) Why Canva has no managers

    (24:29) Product management at Canva

    (27:56) Reflections on working with a married couple

    (30:37) Why they spent a year building their MVP before launch

    (33:49) Advice for building an MVP

    (41:23) Canva’s onboarding transformation

    (44:25) Canva’s SEO strategy

    (50:37) The success of Canva’s freemium strategy

    (54:24) Integrating AI into Canva’s product

    (01:01:50) Where to find Cameron

    Referenced:

    • Canva: https://www.canva.com/

    • Melanie Perkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins

    • Cliff Obrecht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cliff-obrecht-79ba9920

    • Jennie Rogerson, Head of People, LinkedIn post about “season opener” events: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jennierogerson_season-opener-is-one-of-my-favourite-events-activity-7006815614556135424-73bD/

    Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones

    • Woodstock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock

    • ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups/

    • Minimum viable product (MVP): https://www.productboard.com/glossary/minimum-viable-product-mvp

    • Canva’s SEO Strategy Is Elite: https://thegrowthplaybook.substack.com/p/canvas-seo-strategy-is-elite

    • The SEO Strategy That Led Canva to a $40 Billion Valuation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyGKt6LAqM

    • Andrianes Pinantoan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrianes/

    • Canva Create: https://www.canva.com/canva-create/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect)

    The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect)

    Matt Dixon is one of the world’s foremost experts in sales and the author of The Challenger Sale, which sold over a million copies worldwide and was a #1 Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller. His most recent book, The JOLT Effect, focuses on overcoming customer indecision—one of the biggest challenges to closing deals. Outside of writing, Matt co-founded DCM Insights, a boutique consultancy helping organizations understand customer behavior, and is a frequent contributor to the Harvard Business Review, with more than 20 print and online articles to his credit. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why 40% to 60% of qualified sales opportunities are lost due to customer indecision

    • Why dialing up FOMO doesn’t work, and what to do instead

    • The “pings and echoes” technique to catch issues early

    • The JOLT method for overcoming indecision

    • Key lessons from The Challenger Sale

    • Practical examples of how to apply these principles to close more deals

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    Where to find Matt Dixon:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewxdixon

    • Website: https://www.jolteffect.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Matt’s background

    (01:57) The research behind Matt’s books

    (06:08) Insights from The JOLT Effect

    (10:15) FOMO vs. FOMU

    (18:18) An example of selling software

    (26:04) The JOLT method Step 1: Judge their level of indecision

    (29:41) The “pings and echoes” technique

    (34:49) Step 2: Offer a recommendation

    (38:36) Step 3: Limit the exploration

    (41:43) Step 4: Take risk off the table

    (45:58) When to hit the pause button with a customer

    (47:27) Insights from The Challenger Sale

    (49:07) An example of a challenger sale

    (55:23) Where to find Matt

    Referenced:

    • A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/0670922854

    The JOLT Effect: How High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision: https://www.amazon.com/JOLT-Effect-Performers-Overcome-Indecision/dp/0593538102

    • Gartner acquires CEB: https://www.gartner.com/en/about/acquisitions/history/ceb-acquisition

    Tiger King on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81115994

    • Why sourdough went viral: https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/08/04/why-sourdough-went-viral

    • Neil Rackham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Rackham

    • Status quo bias in decision-making: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias

    • Omission bias: https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/omission-bias

    • Gartner Magic Quadrant & Critical Capabilities: https://www.gartner.com/en/research/magic-quadrant

    • Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    • Stop Losing Sales to Customer Indecision: https://hbr.org/2022/06/stop-losing-sales-to-customer-indecision

    • Dentsply Sirona: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/

    • “We happy?” Briefcase scene from Tarantino’s Pulp Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGchDuOpbhE

    • Nupro Freedom Cordless Prophy System: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/en-us/discover/discover-by-category/preventive/hygiene-handpieces.html

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart)

    Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart)

    Bangaly Kaba was an early growth PM at Facebook, head of growth at Instagram, and VP of Product at Instacart and is currently Director of Product at YouTube overseeing a global team working on creator monetization. Bangaly has also been a growth advisor to dozens of companies, including Twitter, on the board of multiple companies, and is an active angel investor. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • A simple framework for choosing where to work and what to work on

    • The importance of “understand work”

    • The “adjacent users” theory and how it can help you drive growth

    • Advice for coaching product managers

    • Invaluable lessons from his time at Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders

    Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba

    Where to find Bangaly Kaba:

    • X: https://twitter.com/iambangaly

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iambangaly/

    • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iambangaly/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Bangaly’s background

    (06:31) Choosing where to work and what to work on

    (08:39) The impact factor

    (10:53) Evaluating the environment

    (15:53) The manager component

    (18:27) The skills part of the equation

    (23:49) Advice on finding a mentor

    (25:42) The power of “understand work”

    (31:17) Operationalizing understand work

    (37:55) Balancing understand work

    (41:25) Managing complex change

    (45:26) Effective management of product managers

    (51:35) The role of product managers as coaches and team leaders

    (54:52) Driving growth through flywheels and value proposition

    (01:03:14) Understanding adjacent users

    (01:08:41) The role of partnerships and SEO in Instagram’s early growth

    (01:16:08) The secret behind Instagram’s growth

    (01:25:37) Lessons from Facebook

    (01:29:15) Failure corner

    (01:31:58) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Impact = Environment x Skills: How to Make Career Decisions: https://www.reforge.com/blog/how-to-make-career-decisions

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    • Casey Winters’s blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/

    • Ben Thompson’s newsletter: https://stratechery.com/about/

    • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company

    • George Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geolee/

    • Bangaly Kaba: The Path to 1 Billion: Lessons Learned from Growing Instagram—CXL LIVE 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZHlb6kj_E

    • What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html

    • Bloom’s taxonomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_taxonomy

    • Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/

    • Mike Krieger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikekrieger/

    • LeBron James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeBron_James

    • Kobe Bryant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant

    •  Mike Krzyzewski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski

    • John Calipari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calipari

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Chief: https://chief.com/

    • Jobs to be done framework: https://jobs-to-be-done.com/jobs-to-be-done-a-framework-for-customer-needs-c883cbf61c90

    • The Adjacent User: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user

    • How the biggest consumer apps got their first 1,000 users: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-the-biggest-consumer-apps-got

    • Alex Zhu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keepsilence/

    • From Brush to Canvas with Alex Zhu of Musical.ly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey15v81pwII

    • Selena Gomez on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/selenagomez/

    • Kim Kardashian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimkardashian/

    • Rob Andrews on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robby-andrews-64669720/

    • Instagram’s growth speeds up as it hits 700 million users: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/26/instagram-700-million-users/

    Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484

    Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Work-Focused-Success-Distracted/dp/1455586692

    Start at the End: How to Build Products That Create Change: https://www.amazon.com/Start-End-Products-Create-Change/dp/0525534423

    • Flighty app: https://www.flightyapp.com/

    • Adam Grant on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adamgrant/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack)

    Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack)

    Kenneth Berger coaches startup leaders on how to prevent burnout, advocate for their desired lifestyle, and make a meaningful impact on the world. He’s spent more than 20 years in the tech industry, is a former founder backed by top investors, and was the first product manager at Slack. Kenneth’s core mission is to help startup leaders change the world by learning to ask for what they want, living with integrity, and building genuine relationships even with the people they find most challenging. Currently he is writing a book, Ask for What You Want, in which he aims to share his actionable strategies for creating change in the world. In our conversation, we explore:

    • Why asking for what you want is so impactful

    • Three steps to effectively ask for what you want

    • Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

    • Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

    • The “dream behind the complaint” technique for uncovering desires

    • Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

    • How embracing fear and discomfort is key to getting what you want

    • Why discipline is overrated

    Brought to you by:

    Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ask-for-what-you-want-kenneth-berger

    Where to find Kenneth Berger:

    • X: https://twitter.com/kberger

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kberger

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kberger/

    • Website: https://kberger.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Kenneth’s background

    (04:31) The importance of asking for what you want

    (06:36) Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

    (08:09) A personal example of failing to ask for what you want

    (09:17) Signs this is a skill you need to work on

    (10:49) How to get better at knowing what you want

    (15:28) Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

    (17:29) Getting a “yes” vs. a “hell yes”

    (19:20) Step 1: Articulate what you want

    (24:07) Doing an integrity check

    (26:56) Step 2: Ask for what you want intentionally

    (30:45) Understanding your influence

    (34:48) Using complaints as inspiration

    (36:24) Internal family systems

    (38:00) Giving feedback

    (41:24) Step 3: Accept the response

    (45:22) Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

    (57:30) Advice on being the first PM at a company or startup

    (01:04:58) Contrarian corner: anti-discipline

    (01:05:52) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Joining as the first product manager: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/joining-as-the-first-product-manager

    • Internal Family Systems: https://ifs-institute.com/

    • How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/

    • The Three Realities Framework | The 15% Rule | Feedback Guidelines: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • T-group weekends at Stanford: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/experience/learning/leadership/interpersonal-dynamics/facilitation-training-program/intro-tgroup

    • DBT skill DEAR MAN: https://www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheet/dbt-dear-man

    • Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT): https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/22838-dialectical-behavior-therapy-dbt

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Stewart Butterfield on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield/

    • How to fire people with grace, work through fear, and nurture innovation | Matt Mochary (CEO coach): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-fire-people-with-grace-work

    Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509

    • Radical Candor: From theory to practice with author Kim Scott: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/radical-candor-from-theory-to-practice

    • Jonny Miller’s Nervous System Mastery course: https://nsmastery.com/lenny

    • Managing nerves, anxiety, and burnout | Jonny Miller (Nervous System Mastery): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/managing-nerves-anxiety-and-burnout

    The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable-ebook/dp/B00R3MHWUE

    Break Point on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

    Living on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81582076

    • Wimbledon tennis: https://www.wimbledon.com

    • Wenshan Baozhong tea: https://redblossomtea.com/products/wenshan-baozhong?variant=31629962820

    • Tea From Taiwan: https://www.teafromtaiwan.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast)

    Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better | Jag Duggal (Nubank, Facebook, Google, Quantcast)

    Jag Duggal is chief product officer at Nubank, a decacorn neobank founded in Brazil. It’s valued at over $30 billion, is bigger than Coinbase, Robinhood, Affirm, and SoFi combined, has 100 million customers (more than Bank of America!) while only operating in three countries in Latin America, and 80% to 90% of its growth comes through word of mouth. Prior to Nubank, Jag was a director of product management at Facebook, a senior vice president at Quantcast, and a product leader at Google. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • How Nubank builds a fanatical user base

    • Tactics for driving word-of-mouth growth

    • Measuring customer love through the Sean Ellis score

    • The importance of strategic clarity

    • The role of category design in creating successful products

    • Why companies should strive to be “fundamentally different,” not “incrementally better”

    • Nubank’s vision for an AI-powered banking future

    Brought to you by:

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

    Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank

    OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/be-fundamentally-different-jag-duggal

    Where to find Jag Duggal:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jagduggal/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Jag’s background

    (04:34) Nubank’s remarkable achievements

    (06:01) Nubank’s product development process

    (11:23) Nubank’s values

    (12:16) Building products people love fanatically

    (15:21) The Sean Ellis score

    (21:27) An example project using the Sean Ellis score

    (25:07) Picking up the phone and calling customers

    (28:20) The importance of starting small and iterating

    (30:42) Pushing back effectively

    (34:10) Uncovering pain points through customer research

    (37:53) An example of setting a clear hypothesis

    (42:01) Developing a strategy

    (52:16) “Be fundamentally different, not incrementally better”

    (53:10) Category design

    (57:37) Nubank’s founding story and goals for the future

    (01:00:46) Advice for adding new product lines

    (01:03:46) The future of fintech and banking

    (01:09:23) AI corner

    (01:12:34) Failure corner

    (01:20:24) Key takeaways

    (01:22:11) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Nubank: https://nubank.com.br/en/

    • Coinbase: https://www.coinbase.com/

    • Robinhood: https://www.robinhood.com/

    • SoFi: https://www.sofi.com/

    • Affirm: https://www.affirm.com/

    • Lemonade: https://www.lemfi.com/

    • Bank of America: https://www.bankofamerica.com/

    • Nubank achieves a world record with more than 7 million people participating in NuBolão in one month: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-achieves-world-record-with-nubolao

    • Nu México carries out first financial transaction 20 meters under the depth of the sea: https://www.bnamericas.com/en/news/nu-mexico-carries-out-first-financial-transaction-20-meters-under-the-depth-of-the-sea

    • David Vélez on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-v%C3%A9lez-1004875

    • Cristina Junqueira on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/crisjunqueira

    • Edward Wible on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamedwardwible

    • Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/

    • Churrascaria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churrascaria

    • Nubank’s real foundation: our culture and values: https://building.nubank.com.br/nubank-culture-and-values/

    • Working Backwards Press Release Template and Example: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/working-backwards-press-release-template-example-ian-mcallister/

    • Sean Ellis test: https://productcoalition.com/using-sean-ellis-test-for-measuring-your-product-market-fit-c8ac98053c2c

    • How to know if you’ve got product-market fit: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-know-if-youve-got-productmarket

    • Reid Hoffman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/reidhoffman/

    • Ultravioleta: Nubank expands its premium card offer and adds new features on the product’s first anniversary: https://international.nubank.com.br/company/ultravioleta-nubank-expands-its-premium-card-offer-and-adds-new-features-on-the-products-first-anniversary/

    • Jeff Bezos: Amazon and Blue Origin | Lex Fridman Podcast #405: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWqzZ3I2cY

    • The Innovation Method Behind Swiffer Madness: https://www.fastcompany.com/3006797/innovation-method-behind-swiffer-madness

    • Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/

    • Good Strategy, Bad Strategy | Richard Rumelt: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/good-strategy-bad-strategy-richard

    Good Strategy/Bad Strategy: The Difference and Why It Matters: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-Bad-Difference-Matters/dp/0307886239

    The Crux: How Leaders Become Strategists: https://www.amazon.com/Crux-How-Leaders-Become-Strategists/dp/1541701240/

    • How to become a category pirate | Christopher Lochhead (author of Play Bigger, Niche Down, Category Pirates, more): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-become-a-category-pirate-christopher

    Play Bigger: How Pirates, Dreamers, and Innovators Create and Dominate Markets: https://www.amazon.com/Play-Bigger-Dreamers-Innovators-Dominate/dp/0062407619

    Playing to Win: How Strategy Really Works: https://www.amazon.com/Playing-Win-Strategy-Really-Works/dp/142218739X

    • A framework for finding product-market fit | Todd Jackson (First Round Capital): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-framework-for-finding-product-market

    • Citi: https://www.citi.com/

    • Santander Bank: https://www.santanderbank.com/

    • Fidji Sumo on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidjisimo/

    • Harvard Kennedy School: https://www.hks.harvard.edu/

    • Susan Wojcicki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-wojcicki-b136a99/

    • Coldplay—“Lost+” ft. Jay-Z: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkCDRm_YRFg

    • Google Buys DoubleClick for $3.1 Billion: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/14/technology/14DoubleClick.html

    • Real-time bidding: https://support.google.com/authorizedbuyers/answer/6136272

    From Third World to First: The Singapore Story: 1965-2000: https://www.amazon.com/Third-World-First-Singapore-1965-2000/dp/0060197765/

    The Gilded Age on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-gilded-age

    • Lomi: https://lomi.com/

    • Nubank careers: https://international.nubank.com.br/careers/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandonmchu/

    • Brandon’s writing: https://blackboxofpm.com/

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    In this episode, Zach highlights an exceptional Product Owner (PO) who showcased a unique blend of tactical and strategic prowess. This PO's deep care for the team was evident in their collaborative and engaging approach. They fostered open dialogue, valuing team input and seeing engineers as partners in solving problems. The PO's commitment to understanding stakeholder requests in-depth allowed them to effectively shield the team. Their transformative and protective actions were a testament to their collaborative leadership style, making them a beloved and effective bridge between stakeholders and the engineering team.

    The Bad Product Owner: Restoring Harmony, Strategies for Healing a Disrupted Team-PO Connection

    In this episode, Zach reflects on a challenging experience with a struggling Product Owner (PO). The PO's performance was hindered by environmental factors and burnout, leading to breakdowns in team collaboration and psychological safety. A lack of connection with the team and berating behavior adversely affected team morale and relationships. The adversarial atmosphere hindered healthy conflict resolution and led to self-sabotage. Zach shares valuable tips for improving such situations, emphasizing the importance of gauging safety for conversations, individual validation, and creating a secure space for difficult discussions. He underscores the potential for growth through acknowledging mistakes, highlighting that the PO eventually transformed into a sought-after collaborator through positive change.

     

    [IMAGE HERE] Are you having trouble helping the team work well with their Product Owner? We’ve put together a course to help you work on the collaboration team-product owner. You can find it at bit.ly/coachyourpo. 18 modules, 8+ hours of modules with tools and techniques that you can use to help teams and PO’s collaborate.

     

    About Zach Stone

    Zach has worked as a process facilitator for over 17 years, as a specialist in behavioral science. He co-founded a firm that uses techniques to rebuild war zones  for organizational dynamics. He has been an agilist for the past 7 years and was recently a speaker at the Global Scrum Conference. He lives in Santa Fe with his Wife and spends his time exploring canyons and trails.

    You can link with Zach Stone on LinkedIn