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    The "To Pivot or Not to Pivot, That is the Question" Episode

    enNovember 02, 2023
    What was the main topic of the podcast episode?
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    About this Episode

    In this episode, we offer up three independent segments. Matt Richter is joined first by Nidhi Sachdeva. Nidhi is both an evidence-based learning designer and a researcher. She just completed her PhD in the spring, and the two talk about the differences between learning and performance. Then, Guy Wallace is in the house. Guy needs no introduction, having been a performance analyst and instructional architect for a few decades now. We talk about his latest book, The L&D Pivot Point, published by LDA Press. Finally, in our third segment, the inimitable Thiagi joins Matt for a new series we will intermittently run called “A Person of Interest.” Thiagi shares his biography… his story with us.


    You can find Nidhi most easily on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nidhi-sachdeva-toronto/, or her blog with Jim Hewitt here: https://scienceoflearning.substack.com 


    Guy can be found here: https://eppic.biz/guy-w-wallace-2/ 


    And, Thiagi here: https://thiagi.com


    Nidhi references the work of Paul Kirscher, John Sweller, and Richard Mayer and their article, Why Minimal Guidance During Instruction Does Not Work: An Analysis of the Failure of Constructivist, Discovery, Problem-Based, Experiential, and Inquiry-Based Teaching. You can find it here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1207/s15326985ep4102_1?needAccess=true 


    Matt & Nidhi refer to the cognitive architecture and instructional design when discussing complex skills. He references the Sweller, van Merrienboer, and Paas article from 1998: Cognitive Architecture and Instructional Design found here: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022193728205 


    They also deviate and start talking about SDT (Self-Determination Theory), and you can learn more about that here: https://selfdeterminationtheory.org


    And, Matt wrote an article about SDT in the context of learning found here: https://ldaccelerator.com/lda-blog-1/open-the-motivational-door-and-let-the-learners-in-and-keep-them 


    The 85% Rule for Optimal Learning can be found here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4 


    Scott Rigby and Richard Ryan, Glued to Games: How Video Games Draw Us In and Hold Us Spellbound. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-01778-000  


    Guy’s book, The L&D Pivot point can be purchased here: https://ldaccelerator.com/the-ld-pivot-point

    Thiagi studied with Albert Elsen. Here’s more info about him: https://honorsandawards.iu.edu/awards/honoree/1453.html 

    BEST AND WORST REFERENCES:

    Daniel Willingham Tik Tok on the fallacy of rereading for studying. Ok… there are a ton of Tim Tok videos by Dan. We aren’t sure exactly which one she referred to, but after going through several to find it, we recommend the whole darn Willingham channel. It’s great. https://www.tiktok.com/@daniel_willingham 

    Recent Episodes from The LDA Podcast: An Exploration of Evidence-Informed Approaches to Learning and Development

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    Show notes:
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    Jordan Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanwilson04/

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    In this show, we explore the nuance, and sometimes vague aspects, of culturally responsive learning and how that intricately ties to research and practice. In other words, what are the business cultural facets that affect learning initiatives. What norms, standards, values, and political schema all have impacts?

    Matt shamelessly references his own model for why stakeholders say no... (1) They don't buy the premise-- they don't accept the problem as stated. (2) They don't buy the solution. They accept the problem as stated, but not the solution you offer. (3) Or, they accept the problem AND the solution as offered, but don't like or trust you to deliver it.

    Elham referenced Adam Grant's book Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know.

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    Matt references Self-Determination Theory (SDT). SDT is a widely research theory for how people are motivated. The premise is that all humans have three basis psychological needs (autonomy, competence, and relatedness). When those needs are met, one is more likely to be intrinsically motivated toward a task. When they are undermined, one is like to be more extrinsically motivated, or not motivated at all. The theory was initially devised and studied by Edward L. Deci and Richard M. Ryan while they were at the University of Rochester. Here is a link to an article Matt wrote on the topic in context to learning: https://ldaccelerator.com/lda-blog-1/open-the-motivational-door-and-let-the-learners-in-and-keep-them. The checklist Matt references can be found here: https://ldaccelerator.com/motivation-checklist.

    Clark references Amy Edmundson and her work on Learning culture: https://hbr.org/2008/03/is-yours-a-learning-organization and Harold Jarche's talks about how well you share with others: https://jarche.com/2014/02/the-seek-sense-share-framework/.

    Clark also references Geert Hofstede and his work on Cultural Dimensions. Mindtools offers a nice summary here: https://www.mindtools.com/a1ecvyx/hofstedes-cultural-dimensions

    Elham references The Culture Map: Breaking Through the Invisible Boundaries of Global Business by Erin Meyer.

    She also references Mark Britz and James Tyer's Social by Design: How to Create and Scale a Collaborative Company.

    Matt highlights Thiagi's SPARK Model for Trust: Selflessness, Predictability, Authenticity, Relatedness, and Know-How.


    Matt referenced the Heterodox Academy founded by Steven Pinker, founder here: https://heterodoxacademy.org/

    You can find Elham on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elhamarabi/

    More on Elham... She is an award-winning learning designer and global consultant in corporate and higher-ed with more than 15 years’ experience in the US, South-East Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. She has championed better evaluation practices in several organizations and done practical research on evaluation to ensure efficiency and effectiveness of learning programs that lead to learning transfer and impact. She holds a PhD in Interaction and Media Sciences from the University of Nevada, where her thesis was on enhancing training design based on training evaluation to investigate the effects on training transfer. 

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    The "What the Skills?!?" Episode

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    1. What is a skill? What are complex skills? What are generic skills? Domain-specific skills?
    2. What is the cognitive architecture?
    3. Can skills be taught? What about leadership? Creativity? Etc.? Of course... you know the answer... it's nuanced!
    4. From an instructional design perspective, how should we go about teaching “skills.”
    5. What are the mistakes educators and trainers make when it comes to skills?
    6. What are the misconceptions we have about skills?
    7. How should we test whether a learner can perform a skill and what do those tests tell us?
    8. Then there is Cognitive Load Theory..., Oh my!
    9. And, more!

    There are many places you can find Paul. But, the best place is at his blog, 3-Star Learning Experiences.

    Paul has written several books. Some of our favorites, of which many of the subjects touched upon here, are delved into deeply there. They include, but are not limited to:

    Ten Steps to Complex Learning
    How Learning Happens: Seminal Works in Educational Psychology
    Evidence Informed Learning Design
    Urban Myths about Learning and Education
    More Urban Myths about Learning and Education

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    And if you want to see a quick video of Paul... Here you go... one from a few years ago... https://ldaccelerator.com/giants-in-ld/paul-a-kirschner

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    You can find Karl on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karlkapp/ 

    And on his website here: https://karlkapp.com 

    Episode Notes:

    1. Matt refers to the book, Everybody Lies: Big Data, New Data, and What the Internet Can Tell Us About Who We Really Are by Seth Stephens-Davidowitz. https://www.amazon.com/Everybody-Lies-Internet-About-Really-ebook/dp/B01AFXZ2F4/ref=sr_1_1?crid=32XE7RFU8662&keywords=Everybody+lies&qid=1703693836&sprefix=everybody+lies%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-1 
    2. Karl refers to Damned Lies and Statistics by Joel Best. https://www.amazon.com/Damned-Lies-Statistics-Untangling-Politicians/dp/0520274709/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1NIS0ITNOKV1A&keywords=lies%2C+damned+lies%2C+and+statistics&qid=1703693953&sprefix=Lies%2C+damned+li%2Caps%2C92&sr=8-1 
    3. Clark refers to Cognitive apprenticeship: Teaching the crafts of reading, writing, and mathematics by Allan Collins, John Seely Brown, and Susan E. Newman. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1989-98135-013
    4. Scott Page wrote The Model Thinker: What You Need To Know To Make Data Work For You. https://www.amazon.com/Model-Thinker-What-Need-Know-ebook/dp/B07B8D3V9V/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12ZCGDWY9C3GI&keywords=The+Model+Thinker&qid=1703694035&sprefix=the+model+thinker%2Caps%2C98&sr=8-1
    5. And, Scott is from the University of Michigan.

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    Jeroen is the co-founder and CTO of TechWolf, an AI start-up revolutionizing workforce skill management for global clients like Booking.com, GSK and United Airlines. A top graduate of Cambridge University, he's recognized by Forbes '30 Under 30' for his contributions to AI and mentorship in engineering. As an advisor and thought leader, he maintains a strong connection to research while steering TechWolf's product vision and fostering an inclusive, customer-driven engineering culture.

    You can find Jeroen and TechWolf on LinkedIn here:

    Jeroen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeroenvanhautte/
    TechWolf: https://www.linkedin.com/company/techwolf/

    TechWolf's website is: https://techwolf.com/

    Two more links referred to in the show are:

    A guide to building a resilient ecosystem
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    The "Talk to the Elephant" Episode

    Clark and Matt are joined by instruction design guru and all around fantastic human, Julie Dirksen. Julie has been in the business for over 15 years creating highly interactive and more importantly, highly effective eLearning experiences for clients all around the world. But, Julie is more than that! She is one of the those go-to people in the industry. She is an expert that many other experts in our industry turn to and call a researcher translator. Meaning she digs into core issues… practical issues, in the work learning practitioners do. She figures out what the research says, and then puts it into succinct, useful bites that are immediately applicable. Her first book, DESIGN FOR HOW PEOPLE LEARN is one of those rare books in L&D that broke out and became a best seller beyond the industry. It is the go-to book for designers and trainers. Today, Clark and I get to talk with her about latest book, TALK TO THE ELEPHANT, DESIGN LEARNING FOR BEHAVIOR CHANGE. We talk about systems thinking and how the system can affect the factors that influence how and why one behaves as one does. We explore the individual factors such as motivation, incentives, and environmental factors. And more!

    As Clark will say in the episode, TALK TO THE ELEPHANT is a wonderful complement, a companion, to DESIGN FOR HOW PEOPLE LEARN. We originally planned to talk with Julie for just 20 minutes, One hour later… we were still going and felt like we could go on forever.

    Julie also joins us at the end for Best and Worst.

    You can find Julie at: https://usablelearning.com.

    Julie rattles off so many models and tools throughout the show, we recommend you simply buy the book to get more on each, as well as their respective references. For the links she directly references, here they are:

    The change ladder survey link is on the book page:

    https://usablelearning.com/elephant/ 


    Julie’s "best" was Casey Fiesler.  Her video on Fair Use is here:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2PuntvfN20 


    Casey has a shorter version here that skips the wolf-themed erotica: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDEgnxkGDg)  


    The syllabus for her tech ethics course on tiktok is here:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tWdqYqYBHARbZXFQX4cybe88S-0twqvUu1xLhYnLgU4/edit?usp=sharing 

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    You can find Adienne here: https://digitalwisdom.life and on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adwthomas/.

    Her course, coloring book and AI coaching is included on her linktree.

    Here are the links referenced in the episode:

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    Linktree: https://linktr.ee/ourdigitalwisdom

    The "To Pivot or Not to Pivot, That is the Question" Episode

    The "To Pivot or Not to Pivot, That is the Question" Episode

    In this episode, we offer up three independent segments. Matt Richter is joined first by Nidhi Sachdeva. Nidhi is both an evidence-based learning designer and a researcher. She just completed her PhD in the spring, and the two talk about the differences between learning and performance. Then, Guy Wallace is in the house. Guy needs no introduction, having been a performance analyst and instructional architect for a few decades now. We talk about his latest book, The L&D Pivot Point, published by LDA Press. Finally, in our third segment, the inimitable Thiagi joins Matt for a new series we will intermittently run called “A Person of Interest.” Thiagi shares his biography… his story with us.


    You can find Nidhi most easily on LinkedIn here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nidhi-sachdeva-toronto/, or her blog with Jim Hewitt here: https://scienceoflearning.substack.com 


    Guy can be found here: https://eppic.biz/guy-w-wallace-2/ 


    And, Thiagi here: https://thiagi.com


    Nidhi references the work of Paul Kirscher, John Sweller, and Richard Mayer and their article, Why Minimal Guidance During Instruction Does Not Work: An Analysis of the Failure of Constructivist, Discovery, Problem-Based, Experiential, and Inquiry-Based Teaching. You can find it here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1207/s15326985ep4102_1?needAccess=true 


    Matt & Nidhi refer to the cognitive architecture and instructional design when discussing complex skills. He references the Sweller, van Merrienboer, and Paas article from 1998: Cognitive Architecture and Instructional Design found here: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1022193728205 


    They also deviate and start talking about SDT (Self-Determination Theory), and you can learn more about that here: https://selfdeterminationtheory.org


    And, Matt wrote an article about SDT in the context of learning found here: https://ldaccelerator.com/lda-blog-1/open-the-motivational-door-and-let-the-learners-in-and-keep-them 


    The 85% Rule for Optimal Learning can be found here: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4 


    Scott Rigby and Richard Ryan, Glued to Games: How Video Games Draw Us In and Hold Us Spellbound. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-01778-000  


    Guy’s book, The L&D Pivot point can be purchased here: https://ldaccelerator.com/the-ld-pivot-point

    Thiagi studied with Albert Elsen. Here’s more info about him: https://honorsandawards.iu.edu/awards/honoree/1453.html 

    BEST AND WORST REFERENCES:

    Daniel Willingham Tik Tok on the fallacy of rereading for studying. Ok… there are a ton of Tim Tok videos by Dan. We aren’t sure exactly which one she referred to, but after going through several to find it, we recommend the whole darn Willingham channel. It’s great. https://www.tiktok.com/@daniel_willingham 

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