Mutually Amazing Podcast

Delve into an insightful and revealing conversation on gender, identity, and false equivalencies in today’s society and political environment with the host of The en(gender)ed podcast, Teri Yuan - as Mike Domitrz asks questions he hears as he travels the world on these topics.

 

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

 

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Teri Yuan is the host of the weekly podcast, en(gender)ed, which explores the systems, practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it, and uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm, so as to better recognize and confront it in the public sphere. Teri's journey as an intersectional feminist began in college, where she studied feminist film criticism, post-colonial pedagogy and cultural criticism. Along the way, she has added to her identity--survivor and advocate. She believes that by developing a cultural literacy around power and abuse of power, we can reclaim how we define liberty in relationships and in civic life and solve many of our most urgent social (justice) challenges.

 

Links to Teri and Teri’s work:
https://engendered.us/
https://twitter.com/engenderedpod
https://www.facebook.com/engenderedpodcast/
https://www.instagram.com/engenderedpodcast/
https://medium.com/@engendered
https://www.linkedin.com/company/engenderedpodcast/

A special link Teri shared discussing “What Do All These Letters Mean”
https://www.socialworkhelper.com/2013/07/25/alphabet-soup-the-story-of-lgbtqia/

The article discussing the research Teri referenced is:
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-effect-new-study-connects-white-american-intolerance-support-authoritarianism-ncna877886

Book Recommendations:
Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks
Love and War by Tom Digby
You're More Powerful Thank you Think by Eric Liu

 READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike Domitrz: (music)

Mike Domitrz: Welcome to the RESPECT Podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from Mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show so let's get started.

Mike Domitrz: Welcome to this week's episode of the RESPECT podcast, I want to get right into it so we can meet our guests and get into this conversation. Our guest this weeks is Teri Yuan, Theresa Yuan. Do you prefer Teri or Theresa?

Teri Yuan: Teri.

Mike Domitrz: Teri, I noticed that when we were communicating back and forth, it was Teri. So but yes, Teri Yuan is the host of the Engendered Podcast, a weekly show that explores the systems, practices, and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it. And uses gender as a lens to better understand power and oppression and its impact in the private realm.

Mike Domitrz: So as the better recognizing it in the public sphere. So, Teri, thank you so much for joining us.

Teri Yuan: Thank you for having me.

Mike Domitrz: Oh, our pleasure. What do you think is the place respect has in our current political environment and how does civility play a role in this?

Teri Yuan: I think one of the underlying causes of oppression and abusive power is the fact that there is no common definition of what respect and civility and the role of both of those should be in civil society. There's no recognition of the humanity of other people and there's no common definition of what equality and freedom means.

Mike Domitrz: So that's a great point. So how do you define equality and freedom?

Teri Yuan: Equality is where everybody has access, regardless of your gender, race, class, physical ability, etcetera, to all of the rights and privileges and opportunities that should be afforded to all human beings. And then respect, I think, is recognizing and treating other people with understanding, kindness and compassion. And seeing them as whole human beings.

Mike Domitrz: And do you think that part of the conflict that occurs out there is that in your definition of equality, that you said that all people deserve, do you think that's where the conflict occurs? That some people think, "No, not all people, we don't deserve this treatment. Like you earn respect." Now I don't believe that statement, I talk about it a lot on the show. Talk about it when I'm working with corporations and organizations.

Mike Domitrz: You don't make somebody earn respect, that is a level of arrogance to think, "You have to earn my ability to treat you with respect." But so how do you explain that to people when they say, "Well nobody deserves anything except the basic right to be alive and breathe?"

Teri Yuan: I think that it's innate in us to actually treat each other with respect when we're young, when we're babies. Babies have been known in experiments to really show compassion to other living animals, to living beings, whether it's animals or other people that have been hurt. And so I think what happens is over a time, society sends us messages that create a hierarchy of who deserves more respect or less respect. Or no respect. And those messages then become ingrained in us and reinforced and even if we may not innately believe it, we might not have started out believing it, over time we are rewarded for reinforcing those messages based on who we are.

Mike Domitrz: Can you give us an example, Teri, of where that happens in society?

Teri Yuan: So I think in my most recent podcast for example, I talk about the construction of gender. I think it's a myth for people to think that feminism is only for women and that it's not for men. And people don't recognize that feminism is about equality of all genders, right? And men think that feminism is something that's a threat to their place in society but the issue is because when we're young we're taught that being a boy means being strong and being powerful and exerting our strength, potentially through violence. Through domination. Those are aspects of our being that may not be natural and yet we are going to be rewarded or punished for not being able to adhere to those norms.

Teri Yuan: And so people, boys, young boys who might be not interested in sports or not watch, whatever, the NFL. Might be interested in music, you know, the stereotypes of being interested in drama or creative arts. Those are stigmas that we create for our young boys for not really expressing themselves and exploring their creativity and their passions in a different way than what and how society deems is worthy.

Teri Yuan: And so what happens is over time those boys potentially could be targets of bullying. They could not be encouraged by their parents or other members of society to really explore those innate aspects of who they are and what they're interested in. And then as they start repressing those aspects of themselves, it creates an imbalance that may lead to potential health risks, they might seek coping mechanisms that are unhealthy that might lead to addiction. Or maybe exerting their frustration in an unhealthy way in their relationships.

Teri Yuan: And so that's an example where equality and feminism actually benefits all of us. Women as well as men. And if we can see that and how the system of male supremacy is actually there to control all of us, then I think that's something that can actually garner more desire and the ability to learn how to communicate with each other respectfully.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah there was a video recently of, if I remember it was four or five people, most were actors or performers in Hollywood. One was not, Tony Porter and they're around a dinner table having a conversation, and it was released around the world, and it went viral. People could look it up, I don't remember the exact name of it. But Tony Porter's in it, if they want to look that up.

Mike Domitrz: And it's men talking about all the different aspects of sexual violence, society and how we treat respect. But they also talk about the pressures they felt as men growing up. That speak 100 percent to what you're saying right there. That this masculinity that I was supposed to be whether it fit me or not. And how dangerous that can be. And so you do the Engendered Podcast, you're the host of that. You facilitate that conversation.

Mike Domitrz: When it comes to gender specifically, what do you think is the biggest misunderstanding that's out there?

Teri Yuan: The biggest misunderstanding is that identity in general of all aspects is a binary. That gender is a binary. And that is has to be either or, you're either male or a female. And there are traits that are specific to being, the same trait can exist in both genders, and it could be perceived in different ways. Usually positively, like being assertive can be positive for men. And if you're assertive as a woman, then you could be seen as dominating. You know, as a supervisor, as a manager.

Teri Yuan: And so there's a value laid in dichotomy, you know, binary that cuts it in two. And it's really a continuum so I think that's the biggest myth. That gender is a continuum, race is a continuum.

Mike Domitrz: So I want to pause there because a lot of people push back on this part of the conversation which is, how is it a continuum if, and I'm not asking as myself, I'm saying this is what we have as the pushback. You know, you hear what I'm about to say all the time.

Teri Yuan: Sure.

Mike Domitrz: "If somebody is born biologically with a penis and this person over here is born biologically with a vagina, how is there a continuum." "The penis is the male, the vagina's the female" is what we often hear as pushback.

Teri Yuan: Well first of all, biology itself or how it's expressed and its possibilities, aren't necessarily binary as well. So for example, the question of just genitalia, you know lots of babies are born without the full expressed genitalia that we attribute to being a boy or a girl. Or the hormonal corresponding, hormones.

Teri Yuan: And as you grow older, for example as a woman, if you were to get a hysterectomy, taking away your reproductive organs, does that make you no longer a woman? I mean obvioulsy culturally, society actually deems that's the case. And attaches certain value to women who can no longer bear children.

Teri Yuan: But what if you were like, you were born that way? From the beginning. Does that make you less of a woman? Because it's not the vagina or the, that's not the reproductive organ. It's really everything else, the uterus and the fallopian tubes, etcetera. Right?

Mike Domitrz: Well let's say somebody makes that argument then. "Okay, if the body has the reproductive possibilities, that's' a female. If the body does not have the reproductive capabilities, that's a male." Let's say somebody makes that argument, now what's the discussion?

Teri Yuan: People don't necessarily identify with their reproductive capabilities. You know, there could be women who don't want to have children, does that make them less of a woman? You know because does that make them not a woman because they choose not to express the full potential of their reproductive organs?

Teri Yuan: And similarly a man may have the desire to give birth but that doesn't mean that he can and does it make him a woman? And so biology is also different from sexual desire and your identity. So one can identify male or female right? And be born in a different body. Which is what transgender is.

Teri Yuan: But then you can also have different sexual desires so regardless of whether you're a male or female embodied, you may have an attraction to male or female traits or people. And so there's so many layers of gender identity that I think the whole thing is a continuum. Even if people who are biologically expressed very much one or the other, it doesn't mean that they have fully those traits that we have identified as belonging to those genders.

Mike Domitrz: I think we [inaudible 00:10:53] so brilliant in that. Why do we think that genitalia is the marker? Or why do we think that reproductive parts are the, actual biological body parts are the marker? What if the marker is the brain? And this is where people can get confused, and they go, "Well wait, if you're born with this body, but your brain's saying this, then you need to convert to your body."

Mike Domitrz: As if the brain's not as important, like they choose the judgment of which is happening here. The chemical, what they'll say, "imbalance," right. The chemical imbalance versus the just a different chemistry than they have.

Mike Domitrz: But so they say the body, the physical being must be what you convert to which is interesting to go, "Well what about the heart, the soul, and the brain. We have to ignore all those and make them something they don't fit in." Is what you're saying, correct?

Teri Yuan: Exactly. Yeah and ultimately it does have to do with the brain. And so if our brain is the organ that controls all of these things and the expression of all of them, our brain is not gendered. And so what does it really matter? You know. And I think the main issue is not trying to reinforce these sort of myths of identity in gender but to really go beyond it and to come to a place of acceptance and back to your show, respect. That people can choose to express themselves and define themselves any way they'd like.

Teri Yuan: And it's not just gender, it's with race or whatever, you know. National identity, citizenship, you know, etcetera. So that's obvioulsy one of the common challenges that we have in our day politically, right?

Mike Domitrz: Right, absolutely. And when it comes to gender, some people who may be listening, going, "Are you implying there's more than two genders?" Is a question and I've had that in audiences when I say, "Hey, inclusive means all genders." And people go, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. All? You mean there's more than two?"

Mike Domitrz: So can you explain that? Are there more than two? Are they defined or because there's a spectrum when we say all, we're leaving the possibility open?

Teri Yuan: I am not an expert on being able to sort of, I'm not an LGBTQIA expert, so I also want to say that beyond male and female, there's also intersex and obvioulsy asexual. And so how you express your gender, it's the performance of the basically.

Teri Yuan: It could be the the physical performance in terms of how you dress, it could be gestures, it could be the things that you like in your sort of day to day activities, that you enjoy doing and how those are associated to particular genders. But ultimately the combination of those three things really determines what your gender identity is. And that's why so many people, even who are heterosexual, they might now consider using the "they/them" pronoun because they're tired of being pushed in this box and trying to fit in.

Mike Domitrz: So let's go there because for some people listening, they'll go, "What, did you just say the "they/them" pronoun?" Now for those of us who work in the field, if you work in college campuses, you're aware of what we're discussing right now. Or you may be aware of what we're discussing. Which is when somebody meets someone, they may say, "By what pronoun do you go by?" Or, "I go by this pronoun." And that way people will sit there and go, you know you get the stereotypical, "Is it a "he" or "she?"

Mike Domitrz: Which is horrible statement because it's an "it." Right? Versus our "they." Do they identify as a "he" or "she" or "they?" They might identify as they. And people say, "Well why is this?" It allows somebody to be respected in the way they see themselves, it the way that they know themselves to be true of.

Mike Domitrz: So this is not uncommon that somebody says, "Well how do you identify?" So for my case, it would be a "he/him" because that's how I identify. But somebody else could be a "her," could be a "they," could be all different possibilities but it's just saying, "How do I see myself."

Mike Domitrz: It allows people to be treated right from the start within their identity, is that correct?

Teri Yuan: Yes. And I think it's similar to when the Ms. Phrase came out, was it in the 70s? I can't even remember, right, when Ms. Magazine came out, and it was a response to, it was basically Mr. or Mrs. You could only be those two. Or Miss, I guess. So you had Mrs. or Miss. And you were either married or unmarried. And there was nothing in between, and I think-

Mike Domitrz: And yet Mr. was always consistent. And that was the argument that, "Hey how come the person that identifies as the male can always be treated the same with Mr.

Mike Domitrz: But the woman has to be identified by marriage or not," right.

Teri Yuan: Right, right. And then based on whether you're a Miss or a Mrs and it actually helps people calibrate their treatment of you. Right? Which why should that be the case, it should be uniform regardless of your marital status.

Teri Yuan: And similarly with they/them, I think what it represents to me is the plurality of identity. You don't want to be boxed into, again, a "she" or "he." And for me especially as someone with, who's Asian American, who's a woman, who has all these other identities that I'm not going to share with you right now. But those other identities aren't necessarily visible and being able to be called they or them, it elevates those other identities in a way that one word and gender would not.

Mike Domitrz: Do you think we're moving to the place or do you think it would be more ideal if we move to the place where we're removing gender from the conversation?

Teri Yuan: Well I mean I think the goal of equality itself is eventually to make it irrelevant, what you're fighting for, once you get there, right? I definitely don't think we're there at all. We're at the beginning stages of opening up the conversation, and I think we can both recognize from the national climate and how polarized we are that it's going to be a struggle. But I think one of the benefits of having your podcast and this conversation is hopefully to bring other people, regardless of their political affiliations, you know, where they grew up and all the elements that make up their identity that come and see that there are different ideas and opportunities for personal growth.

Teri Yuan: And recognizing why people feel certain words are offensive or not, or more offensive or less offensive. And the historical implications of it is something that can really open up dialogue for getting to know each other and hopefully being more compassionate and understanding.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah I think it's a really important discussion for people to have. If somebody's listening right now and let's say you're pushing back going, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, you're going against genetics." And actually what we're saying is we're incorporating more genetics. We're taking the genetics of the brain, the chemistry, everything not just the pure physical genetics that people tend to refer to. But if somebody's pushing back right now, I just want to ask you to pause and think, "Why do you need them in the box? Why do you need each of us to fit into a drawer?"

Mike Domitrz: Because I know that history will tell you, "Because I can then know where my world is. This is where I learned my world is, and you're saying my world is different. And we don't like change. So let me just put people back in the box."

Mike Domitrz: But what value is there in putting people in a box, what value is there in straight categorization of people. It actually places some value higher than others when we do that. It's just a matter of fact. The moment you categorize, that means certain categories are different than others. And therefore we tend to treat differently.

Mike Domitrz: So I just throw that out to someone listening right now going, if you're struggling with this, just think why does it matter to you that Jordan identifies this way. Or that Chris identifies this way. And yes, I'm being intentional about the names I chose because then people want to go, "Which are you talking about?" That's the point. Why does that matter if Chris or Jordan are brilliant, if Chris or Jordan bring value to this world, why do you need to know what category they have to fit in in this one area?

Mike Domitrz: That's sort of what we're saying here, correct?

Teri Yuan: Yeah. I mean I think, you know, it's too long for our discussion, for us to get into now. But I think historically our country was built on basically a colonialist mentality that hasn't really been addressed. And so all of the historical repercussions of white washing and erasing that part of our historical identity has in some ways both rendered it invisible to all of us. Whether it's whatever race or gender we are, we are unaware of our full history.

Teri Yuan: And yet at the same time because it's rendered it invisible, we've also had no place to have a discussion for it. And so what it's done is it's created a system where people are trying to connect with one another based on superficial identity constructs, rather than on more deep meaningful values. And the reason people try to put other people in a box is because they crave connection, they crave community. They want to find their tribe.

Teri Yuan: And they think that their tribe is based on these things of, "Oh we like to," I'm going to use the sports analogy again, right? "We like to watch the Super Bowl together and have a tailgate," you know, or whatever. But that's just an activity, why do you like that activity? You like it because there's community, there's over time you've built a set of rituals that people engage in, so it's predictive.

Teri Yuan: You know that every, I don't know football so well, but every year there's a football season that you can rely on that you could always be able to connect with other people and see. Similarly, people go to church but if we can like look at all of these cultural institutions. And see them as just that, you know, they're just cultural institutions, and peel away the onion to get to who we are as core people, then we don't need to have those sort of artifices to connect with one another.

Teri Yuan: We can connect with one another on a deeper level. You know, I care about getting to know you because you and I share the value of treating people with respect and with equality. And that matters to me more than what you do on your weekend or after work, right? And there's a commonality there.

Mike Domitrz: Yeah and that's what I always find intriguing. Every now and then I'll meet someone who says, "Mike, hey, one of your best friends is so polar opposite you politically, I don't get that." And I think that's because they're only seeing the political aspect not all the other aspects I see in that person.

Mike Domitrz: And that that person brings to this world. And that's true on so many levels. Whether it be gender, sexual orientation, racial, cultural. That when we actually drop the "I identify this way," and walk out as an, "I always have to be connecting with my same identity," I don't have the chance to learn about other people.

Mike Domitrz: I don't have the chance to connect on the multiple layers that we are as human beings. And so the more that we're able to drop the, as you said, the institutions, the cultural institutions and just be able to connect on a sincere one on one level. Like, "Hey, what drives you? What inspires you? What angers you?" And be able to have those conversations where real connection happens. It's so powerful.

Teri Yuan: Yeah. How do you want to see the world?

Mike Domitrz: Yeah. And identifying that way. Right? Like identifying yourself as a loving person. Well see, because if you say, "Well I'm a loving person but those people don't belong," that doesn't sound loving. So are you identifying yourself as a loving person because do your actions then back that up. Now that doesn't mean that I'm not going to be loving to those people who say they don't, they aren't loving because I believe I'm a loving person, I have to be loving to all people.

Mike Domitrz: I'm just going to be aware of what energy I let into my life. What I intentionally spend time with energy wise.

Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think one of the challenges that we have today that obvioulsy the 2016 election has really exposed, is that people are more willing to remain in their tribe and remain in their community even at the expense of what the values of those communities espouse. Or purportedly espouse.

Teri Yuan: And to me, that's very disappointing because there's so much more that they're missing out on. And it's kind of like holding on so dearly, there's also research and I'm sure you've seen these articles recently around how, I don't know if it was just white Americans. But I think it was white Americans who really seek community and sort of defending their white privilege. You know, they're more willing to accept authoritarian rule and they're more willing to give up democratic principles and benefits in their society.

Teri Yuan: And that could mean access to facts and access to true values of kindness and empathy and compassion and treating people with equality even though all their lives, they have been engaging in at least in rhetoric, in promoting those values. But now they're willing to give it up because their white privilege is at risk.

Teri Yuan: So that's, I think, something that we need to really talk about.

Mike Domitrz: Personally I don't know that specific research. That's interesting because you do see it on all, and we do see it on all sides. We see grouping occurring on all sides that say, "Lockdown over here. I'm going to go this way and you're over there and now we're against each other." And neither make sense. Because neither are about love, respect, it's all about my way or the highway which is dangerous when extremes do that.

Mike Domitrz: And so, I do not want to imply in any way that one side here is less culpable for their actions than they are. So that's really important but I think it's important for all of us to step back and go, "Where am I potentially lacking living with respect by this choice I'm making?"

Mike Domitrz: I think that's an important question.

Teri Yuan: Well Mike, I do want to address that point because I think that two often that one of my complaints about the media, mainstream media, is that they're constantly putting forth a false equivalence.

Mike Domitrz: Right.

Teri Yuan: And I do feel that in some ways, that analogy may be so. Because when someone is doing something, this happens within gender based violence, that community, the violence against women community. Like people, when someone does something wrong, if someone is abusive to their partner and their partner is acting in self defense and happens to use violence in self defense as a response, they are not equally culpable. You know?

Teri Yuan: So when you are resisting and trying to defend yourself, that is not the same as the person who actually initiated it and what the intention of that person was. And in the eyes of the law, they both may be treated equally because they both engaged in, based on statutes of assault, they may be actually treated the same way. And so I think similarly when people are trying to sort of erase or minimize our democratic ideals of freedom and equality and the value of fact, and you know, all of our first amendment rights. And others are responding in defense of those, which are the founding principles of our country.

Teri Yuan: They are not the same thing.

Mike Domitrz: No I'm so glad you brought this up because that's what I was trying to reference. You did it much better than I did. Which is that false equivalency discussion. Which is, yeah that's what we have to be careful of. Not doing that. And I think it's so important. I think we need to have both conversations.

Mike Domitrz: Be able to say there's problems on both sides politically right now. In grouping and how people are behaving in groups at times. Especially extreme sides. But at the same time that also means, I should say and at the same time, that does not mean that's okay to use false equivalencies. And that's why I think it's brilliant, the example you gave.

Mike Domitrz: That defense from the person in power is different than the person in power causing, starting the harm in the first place. There is a huge difference there.

Teri Yuan: Yeah and I think also what happens is, I mean you see these in memes on Twitter all the time with regard to responses to the administration. The best example that I give is someone causes a problem, let's just say the migrant crisis and then they try to minimally address it but not really fix it. And then all of a sudden they get credit for it.

Teri Yuan: So it's basically like giving an arsonist credit for trying to put out the fire but not successfully but out the fire that they started. So why are we giving that person credit for something that they actually created but then never fixed.

Teri Yuan: And so that's kind of the situation that happens again and again, that I see. And I think it's important to be able to distinguish the person who's trying to put it out because they didn't start it and they're trying to put it out and save that house. Versus the person who's trying to put it out because they realize that people are upset at them for starting that fire and they want to get into everybody's good graces again.

Mike Domitrz: That's brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing that. You have three books you recommend. One's Feminist Theory from Margin to Center by Bell Hooks. Another one is Love and War by Tom Digby. And the last one is You're More Powerful than You Think by Eric Liu.

Mike Domitrz: We're going to have all of those links for our listeners and viewers to be able to find at respectpodcast.com. We'll also have that obvioulsy in the show notes if you're listening on iTunes. We'll have that available for everybody.

Mike Domitrz: Teri, I want to thank you so much for sharing your insights, and your brilliance today.

Teri Yuan: Thank you so much Mike for having me.

Mike Domitrz: Absolutely. For everyone listening remember you can join the conversation on Facebook in our Facebook discussion group which is the RESPECT Podcast Discussion Group.

Mike Domitrz: Look that up on Facebook, join the conversations, after each episode I typically throw a question out so we can all keep the conversation going. And of course, you'll also on our show, respectpodcast.com, learn all about Teri, find out how to connect with Teri and all of the links.

Mike Domitrz: Thank you for joining us for this episode of the RESPECT Podcast. Which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

 

Stacey Hanke dives into the journey of gaining and maintaining influence throughout your life. Do you have it? Are you sure? Explore "Influence" and how respect plays a role.

 

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

 

     Stacey Hanke is author of the book; Influence Redefined…Be the Leader You Were Meant to Be, Monday to Monday®.  She is also co-author of the book;Yes You Can! Everything You Need From A To Z To Influence Others To Take Action.

 

      Stacey is founder of Stacey Hanke Inc. She has trained and presented to thousands to rid business leaders of bad body language habits and to choose words wisely in the financial industry to the healthcare industry to government and everyone in between. Her client list is vast from Coca-Cola, FedEx, Kohl’s, United States Army, Navy and Air Force, McDonald’s, Publicis Media, Nationwide, US Cellular, Pfizer, GE, General Mills and Abbvie. Her team works with Directors up to the C-Suite. In addition to her client list, she has been the Emcee for Tedx. She has inspired thousands as a featured guest on media outlets including; The New York Times, Forbes, Entrepreneur, Thrive, SmartMoney magazine, The Economist and Business Week. She is a Certified Speaking Professional—a valuable accreditation earned by less than 10% of speakers worldwide.

 

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss in this show. So, let's get started. And welcome to this episode. We have a friend of mine, a very close friend, a really special, amazing person with a ... with just a brilliant mind and a cool energy source around her all the time. Stacey [inaudible 00:00:29] is the author of the book, Influence Redefined: Be the Leader You Were Meant to Be Monday to Monday, which ... such a brilliant statement, by the way. I love the "Monday to Monday" 'cause most people think Monday to Friday. Her team works with directors up to the C Suite for companies, including FedEx, General Mills, [inaudible 00:00:45], Nationwide, and Kohl's.

Mike:                       Stacey, thank you so much for joining us.

Stacey:                   Welcome. Thank you for the introduction. I don't know how I can top that.

Mike:                       Well, let's dive into that introduction for a second.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       Some people listening are going, "What's a C Suite?" So, will you explain what you mean by when you're working with a C Suite?

Stacey:                   Yeah. So, it's anyone from the CEO and their executive team.

Mike:                       Okay. So, the highest level of the organization. That's where you're working with people, and you deal a lot in influence. That's your expertise. That is your subject matter. How does influence and respect ... how do they ... do they have a role together? And, if so, what's that role?

Stacey:                   I was thinking about this before you and I hopped on this call because there's so many, to me, so many layers. So, I'm gonna just make it super simple to start, and then we can see how far we want to dive into it. When I look at influence, influence means, to me, is someone who really cares, puts in the work, the discipline, to make sure that their messages are clear, to make sure how, when they interact with someone, no matter if that's over the phone or in-person, they truly are designing a message that is important to what that listener's experience level is and knowledge level is with their topic. That's the message inside. The other side of influence, to me ... and this is ... I'm gonna get to where this respect ties to it. Is someone who really thinks through, "How does everyone experience me?" And that's all delivery. "Do I come across as I truly care, that I care about what is important to them, that I can build trust with them?"

Stacey:                   And when those two are not consistent and they start to collide, I think we start really not thinking about respecting people's time, respecting people's choices. I always say to our participants, "Even if you host a meeting, whatever that meeting looks like, that doesn't mean people have to listen to you." I think you have to do the work to respect that, A, they showed up, and, B, they cared enough to be there in your presence. You've got to respect their time, and that's where I see there's a lot of correlation with your topic and my topic on influence.

Mike:                       Yeah. And I think it's a struggle for people because influence is also ... authenticity's really important to it, right?

Stacey:                   Yeah. I think the authenticity ties to the delivery piece that you don't just turn on your personality, your energy level, that you're suddenly different than what you are day in and day out. That, to me, is where the authenticity comes into play.

Mike:                       And that's respecting your true expression.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       Your true self is the most authentic expression you can give to the world. If you're not giving that, you're holding back. You're not respecting your brilliance. You're not respecting your voice. You're not respecting what you have to give to the world.

Stacey:                   Yeah. So, you're taking it from a different angle, where, really, it is first about your own respect and then taking it to who you're trying to convince, who you're trying to influence, who you're trying to build trust, connect, and engage. I think there's the other piece to this, and this ties to the consistency. I've seen it many times with my clients, where I'll see them as a leader, them interacting with their team, and it seems that they're really putting in a lot of thought and care to that group. And then I'll overhear them in another conversation with someone who might be higher up than they are or the same level that they are, and suddenly, the conversation is different than what they just told their peers.

Mike:                       Do you think that happens because of fear? Do you think I talk to people differently out of fear? In other words, I talk to the same horizontal level in an organization and below as me-

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       -'cause I don't have fear at that level, and I-

Stacey:                   I think-

Mike:                       Or maybe only below, right, in a hierarchy.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       But somebody at my level or above, I fear their judgment 'cause of how that can impact me getting back, higher up that ladder, so I'm not truly authentic [inaudible 00:04:32] myself out of a fear. Is that possible there?

Stacey:                   Yeah. And then I think it ties exactly what you were just starting to say. Then you start disrespecting your authenticity, which, to me, is the same thing as disrespecting your consistency, that people are guessing who shows up from conversation to conversation to conversation. And, to me, that ties all to respect. I mean, you and I both know. We ask ... we always work with our participants, asking them, "How do you want to come across every day of the week, no matter who it is? What are some adjectives that come to mind?" And believe it or not, as they're throwing out "credibility," "confidence," "knowledge," "authenticity" and I'm waiting for "trust ..." I'm waiting for it, waiting for it. And maybe one person will throw it out, and if they don't, I give it to them. And I always turn to them and say, "Every one of you should write that down because, let's face it, if people like you, they'll listen. That has no influence around it. When people start trusting you, they start respecting you." And that, to me, is where influence comes into play.

Mike:                       That's really powerful, and I've fallen guilty of it because I think, "Oh, I don't want to say the wrong thing," right. And so, I'm very aware of language because, in my line of work, the wrong word can actually do harm-

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       -to survivors and to others, but what you can make the mistake of doing, then, is thinking, "I need to sensor all my language" versus "I just need to be me. I know that this over here could do harm. I'm not gonna say that. So, stop censoring everything I'm saying." And I think a lot of us in society do that. We censor ourselves because we're afraid the true us won't be accepted, and in doing that, we lose trust. To me, it's amazing. There are people that we will disagree with, vehemently, their values, but millions will follow them because they're consistent. They know that they're getting with that person. Politically, this is so true. There are people that follow certain politicians-

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       -because they're so consistent. They can trust them even if they don't agree with all lot of what that person ... they'll ... "I can trust them. I can trust that person." And so, I think what you're saying is so true, and we all forget about, one, the consistency. And those people are willing to say what needs to be said in their mind. I'm not saying it's the right thing to say, at all-

Stacey:                   Right.

Mike:                       -but what they believe needs to be said, they say it, and they're consistent about that.

Stacey:                   And this is the part ... if anyone right now is watching this and they're thinking, "Oh, come on. It's common sense. I know that." Isn't that what is, in life, the most difficult? It's the common sense. It's not the common practice, and, to me, when ... what really wanted me to get on this podcast with you is when you think about respect, it's a word that's been around forever. But as we live in this world of noise and there's tons of messages coming to our plate, we're all ... I think we all fall into that fear of saying the right thing, doing the right thing, that, suddenly, we lost the 101, the basic 101, that I'm guessing most of our parents have taught us, and that's just "Be true to yourself. Respect others, no matter who it is. And make sure that 'To be true to yourself' means you're consistent." No one is ever guessing who shows up, and the minute you start affecting that, people start doubting.

Stacey:                   But if you're consistent, you will eliminate all doubt in your listener's mind.

Mike:                       Yeah. And what I loved ... this weekend, I was at an event where we were hearing some speakers, and the person was talking about personal branding. And it was so interesting because what the expert said was that personal branding was personal self-expression. And what most-

Mike:                       -people make the mistake of thinking is personal branding is "this brand I have to create that sells" versus understanding that personal branding is actually the ultimate example of personal self-expression, that you fully express and that you are you, so I know what I'm gonna get with you. I know your brand. Then I'm gonna align with the you that I know is always gonna be true, and I want that. I want that. So, yeah, you might lose some friends over here. You might lose them, but you're gonna gain the friends that align with you. And I think that's the fear that, if we truly are self-expressive and consistent in that, we're gonna lose some people, but you're gonna gain. Like, in the world of business, you're gonna gain clients that are so in-tuned with you, you're gonna be with each other forever.

Stacey:                   It's so true. You're starting to ... and I think this applies to our personal life and our professional life. I'm just going to throw out Facebook for a moment, only because there was a conversation with one of my clients about it the other day. And he was saying ... he was like, "I can't stand Facebook. I don't like being on it," he goes, "because everyone's life is so great. Everyone is just having such a great day." He goes, "Are you kidding me? Who would ever put on Facebook 'I'm just not feeling well today?'" And we all have it, right? So, that's one example of we now live in this culture, where, I said earlier, there's a lot of noise, and we're always trying to fit in with that next group, with that next crowd. And does it tie in with we're afraid of what to say or are we losing that authenticity or sitting back or trying to watch everyone because now we can see people more often through social media? Get back to the basics. Get back to ... [inaudible 00:09:31] you know I love country music a lot, and there's that Tim McGraw song that is "Humble and Kind."

Stacey:                   And if you listen to the lyrics, they're so simple, but we just have forgotten it. And a lot of those lyrics tie to "Respect the people that are around you." I come in from an angle, "Respect their time." Every time they come to listen to you, make it the best 10, five, 20 minutes that they always feel like you don't waste their time. You always give them an action step because that's the purpose of the conversation, and there's always some value. There's always some value proposition that's ties to it. If you could do those three things, I bet people look at your name, when it appears on their Outlook calendar in the morning, a little differently, meaning, "Okay. I don't even have to bring my technical gadget. Mike will make all use of time that is my value, and he'll be done in 20 minutes, as he promised."

Mike:                       And I love that 'cause that's all about respecting their time, and before, we were talking about making sure we're being ourselves in that moment of respecting their time, that we're truly saying what needs to be said. And that reminded me of a quote I heard this weekend. It was from Jason Gold, but he said, "Authenticity is what is left over when you stop trying to manage impressions." Isn't that powerful? Which is what you were just talking about. We're all over social media trying to manage impressions, which means we're not ourselves.

Stacey:                   We're not, and we're just ... we're losing that. We always use the line with our clients, the ones that are ... we have a lot of clients that are virtual. I'm sure our listeners understand that, and I had a conversation this morning with a client. And she said, "We've relied too much on it that we're starting to get lazy when we really could have a live webcam conversation or not." I said to her, "Maybe it's something as simple as telling your folks, your team, to hang up the email and pick up the phone." I know it seems like such an ancient concept. Or, turn on your webcam. That, to me, is another way for them to see your authenticity, another way to respect their time. You're just ... you're putting that extra effort versus anyone else out there that sends a quick text, and in the bottom of the text, it says, "Excuse my typos."

Mike:                       Oh, I just had somebody do this the other day to me, and it was awesome. I don't know the person. I didn't know the person. They friended me through Facebook because they're a podcaster, and I'm a podcaster. And, in the Facebook Messaging, he sent an audio message: "Hey, Mike. Just listened to your show. Love your show. I love the blah, blah, blah." And I'm like, "Wow, this is cool," and hearing this person's voice, it took no more energy, but so much more personal than his written word, which I would not have felt that-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Mike:                       So much more personal than his written word, which I would not have felt that passion, that energy. It was just incredible. So I think sometimes we get caught up in, well those other things take more energy. No, they don't. That's the myth. It's actually quicker to talk than to type.

Stacey:                   It's so much quicker. I was just told on Friday you can do that through Twitter too because a client of mine received a tweet that was an audio retweet. I'm like brilliant.

Mike:                       Yeah. What do you think are actions people choose, strategies that people choose that jeopardize their ability to be seen as respectful or as trustworthy?

Stacey:                   That jeopardizes it? First, I go back to the technical gadget, you know your phone. It'd be as if we were on this podcast but I just have to quick check email.

Mike:                       For anybody whose listening, she's literally checking her email on her phone as we're talking.

Stacey:                   Right but there's so much distraction. When I travel I spend a lot of time with my laptop in a restaurant because I love the energy around me. And it is a research project every time because you just look up and half the people are down in their technical gadgets. You can tell it's a pet peeve of mine. And I see it with leaders that'll do it in their meetings.

Stacey:                   And I always tell them, how you behave is how people respond. If you do it to your teams, they're gonna do it to you too in a meeting. It's fair game. I mean that's a big piece, we're really losing the ability to look people dead in the eye, when we're having a conversation. We don't do it anymore. And it's free.

Stacey:                   It's free to build trust just by looking people dead in the eye. We're so caught up in all the distractions around us, we're not paying attention, we don't focus on what's happening. And our mind is always wandering, which I think someone can tell when your minds wandering too. You're not quite there.

Mike:                       Yeah, when I ask audiences what does it feel like to be respected? They say words like, seen, valued. So if you're on your phone, or I'm on my phone while you're talking to me there's no way you feel seen because you can't even see my eyes.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       And I remember when I would coach kids, youth in middle school, and we would say the way we know you're listening is when we can see your eyes. That's how we know you're listening. It tells us we're being seen. And you're seeing us, and we're seeing you. And it's so powerful. And you think many of us as parents, in corporate America, we can all fall guilty.

Mike:                       So I don't want somebody listening going, "Well jeez do you never do that?" Yeah, we do that, but the thing is can we catch ourselves and say, I want to reduce that dramatically, that behavior?

Mike:                       And when I catch it I want to acknowledge it for the error it is. So if I am doing it, I looked at my phone while you were talking that wasn't okay. And I want to apologize for that. You are what matters because now I acknowledge it.

Mike:                       Now if I keep doing it, it's not gonna mean anything. But if I acknowledge that and don't repeat that behavior that's powerful.

Stacey:                   You hit something very key there. I like the fact that you said you and I. I do it. I get caught doing it. Heres the difference though, I know when I do it. And to me that's part of this authenticity and having that consistency.

Stacey:                   Its being aware, self aware that when you are doing something, body language, that's not consistent with trust, credibility, its not consistent with your message. So that would be your first answer to that question that you asked.

Stacey:                   I think the other piece is when you're in a conversation and everything that you say is so incongruent with the conversation at hand because you can tell that person is completely drifting and not listening to what you're saying. And it's Q&A, Q&A would be a good example of that.

Stacey:                   When we jump in perhaps it's during a meeting, someone asks you a question, and you're already formulating your answer. And then you go on and on. And you talk about what you think they should hear, rather than what is really important to their need and their expectation.

Mike:                       Along that same path of being inconsistent in what we say, I know I certainly have fallen prey to this and I think when you have an analytical mind, and I don't even think that. I think that's an excuse we make.

Mike:                       I think as human beings we like to talk negative I don't know the psychology of why. I don't know if that's to make ourselves feel better at times. But we can be negative. And when we have a caring, respectful, image, and that's who we are.

Mike:                       But then we don't speak that way around certain people. When we're around that one person there's a lot of negative energy and we go there. We go to the gossip, we go to all of that.

Stacey:                   Yes.

Mike:                       We lose trust don't we? We lose all influence. So how do you help somebody, all of us from getting caught into that? And is there a place for people to go, but I need somewhere to have that expression. What do I do with that feeling? Like I want to be able to evaluate what I just saw and talk about that. And there was negative to it. Why can't I do that without harm to breaking this trust?

Stacey:                   I think there's a piece that you can go there. I would always be careful. And this is just a personal recommendation. Take it for what it's worth. I would always explain why I feel that way and where it's coming from.

Stacey:                   I go back to since I focus on body language, I go back to it sounds a little bit different when I'm talking to someone negative and the body language supports that. Meaning I'm all negative with my facial expressions, the tone of my voice, my gestures.

Stacey:                   Versus I can tell you something that's negative but do it in a way that softens it. I'm not saying softening it jeopardizes your authenticity. Again you've gotta make sure that every time you're in those conversations that might get caught up in the gossip or the negativity, get rid of the core to the gossip.

Stacey:                   And focus on, well why are you saying what you're saying? Why does your opinion stand the way it is? And make sure that if you think there's any confusion what you're saying, I would always explain, heres why I'm coming at this subject from this angle.

Mike:                       I love that because that's reframing. I'm reading a book right now called, Designing Your Life, which is all about how we reframe things. Whether we choose to reframe or not. And that can build trust. You're not gossiping if you reframe right?

Mike:                       If I go, I was at this thing and Dave this, I couldn't believe Dave did that. Okay, that's gossip right?

Stacey:                   Yes.

Mike:                       That's just pure negative. There's nothing else coming out of that. It's me venting. But if the world knows I talk that way about Dave, then they can wonder if you're gonna talk that way about me? Therefore, I don't feel safe around you. I don't trust you. You've lost influence. By what you've described that would be a loss of influence.

Stacey:                   Yes, and you'd lose respect for it.

Mike:                       Yes.

Stacey:                   And it's easy you can get caught up in that.

Mike:                       And I could have reframed it. I could have reframed it and said, I'm really curious why Dave made that choice. I'd be curious to ask Dave why he made that choice at that moment because that was a little bit different than what I expect Dave to do at that moment.

Mike:                       There's no gossip to that. That's a wanting to learn, wanting to be curious. And it also means I'm being compassionate to Dave because we all make mistakes. So people have the right to gossip about me because there's mistakes. What if they were curious instead of gossiping? And I know I've fallen guilty to this.

Stacey:                   Exactly, we all have. As long as we learn from it. I always say, we're going to continue to make mistakes, and fail, and hurt people. It's knowing when you did it and don't do it again. I think that's not what I'm talking about when its consistency by the way.

Mike:                       Right.

Stacey:                   Learn the mistake and do it. I love the way you reframed it. You know what I think? That to me, the example you just gave, if someone said, "Well how would I define a good communicator versus someone whose influential?" What you did that's an influential communicator. That they take a moment, they may be listening to as the gossip is happening.

Stacey:                   They release it back and listen to what's going on. And in their mind they're taking the time to really give that response of how will my words land on this persons ears? And how will they translate it long after this interaction is over?

Mike:                       Yeah, it's taking responsibility for the impact of your words not just the words.

Stacey:                   Exactly.

Mike:                       There was a quote on Facebook this year that said, "I'm only responsible for my words not how you hear them." Which I thought, no that's a horrendous lack of responsibility because that implies words have no power and I can just say them.

Mike:                       And I can say, "Yes I said them but your reaction is the problem not my words that are the problem." Which is really, really messed up. It's callous. There's no other way to put that at that moment. And it was just a quote that was out there but people were sharing it like, isn't this funny? And I'm like, there are a lot of people who operate that way actually.

Stacey:                   I agree with that. Or it's going to the next level where, just because I communicated a message you understand it, you'll act on it, this is another pat of respect. It's your responsibility to work as hard as you need to work to make sure that your message is right for the listener.

Stacey:                   And when I say right, it's adaptable to what they already know about your topic, their knowledge level. And its starting to meet their level of understanding so that they can act on your recommendation.

Stacey:                   I always tell individuals that I work with, you've gotta do the work. You've gotta do the work to get people to listen to you, to answer you, to respond to you and act on your recommendation.

Stacey:                   And it kind of ties to that quote you just make the assumption that if I throw something out there, people respect that I'm having the conversation with them and they'll act on it. Not anymore, too many messages are coming at us 24/7. It's harder now than ever to stand out from that noise.

Mike:                       And Stacy you sent out newsletters via email that give people great content, great information. And I love it because there's two sides of this conversation. There is the you're not as influential as you think you are.

Mike:                       You work with some of the biggest brands in the country, people in very powerful positions that dictate the lives of thousands, tens of thousands of people out there. And they're not as influential as they think they are.

Mike:                       And then we have people who are authors and speakers. And you're going, you're not as influential as you think you are. But on the flip side, you don't want them thinking then I have no value. That I'm not influential.

Mike:                       So how does somebody whose listening to that going, yeah if I put something out to the world, not a whole lot of people are gonna act on it. The majority of the worlds not gonna act on it. I'm not influential therefore why try? Can you explain that so that people don't get caught up in the, I don't have the influence others have so why would I bother?

Stacey:                   Yeah, so it definitely is a catchy phrase. And you know that's all part of it because we want people to hear us. Heres my point behind that, and I'll compare it to like an athlete, an actress, anyone that practices constant. That no one, an athlete for example, do you have a favorite?

Mike:                       I don't have a favorite. I have ones that I love their achievements. I've learned that we gotta be careful of knowing that doesn't mean their personal lives are in order.

Stacey:                   You're right.

Mike:                       But their achievements. Michael Phelps achievements in the pool ... I was a swimmer, are unbelievable.

Stacey:                   You can only imagine because he's so unbelievable with his achievements, he wasn't born with those skills. And he gets that no matter how good, and all those medals that he has already earned, he still practices. It doesn't stop.

Stacey:                   And what I have found throughout the years before I started really pushing that phrase, "You may not be as influential as you think you are," I'd be working with these leaders and they would come off with these comments of, "I communicate all the time I'm good." "I worked hard to get to this position therefore I'm influential." "My title determines the level of influence I have."

Stacey:                   And once we started to do a lot of work with that C Suite, we realized just because you feel good, just because you've got this experience, doesn't mean you are influential all the time. And we use those sports analogies a lot where we talk about you're influential if you are consistent with your body language, your messaging.

Stacey:                   If you're constantly getting feedback, and I'm not saying, good, nice job. But you're getting feedback and you're always having that deliberate practice, like Phelps does, you're on that track to be influential.

Stacey:                   I'm not solid influential, but I get that. I also do the work that I'm constantly working towards that. I think there's definitely people that are more influential than others but the ones that are, they're aware of it. They're constantly getting feedback.

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Stacey:                   Ones that are, they're aware of it. They're constantly getting feedback, they're practicing these skills.

Mike:                       And your book brilliantly teaches how to do that. You teach people how to seek the feedback, how to become aware of where their weaknesses are, 'cause it could be one thing they're doing that's killing their ability for people to hear 'em, and they're totally unaware. But they're willing to seek that out, they're willing to ask questions.

Stacey:                   That's it. I mean, I get coached. I have several coaches. Just when I get comfortable in my communication and the way that I interact with individuals, my coaches rip me apart and I realize, "Alright, now I caught this habit. Where'd I pick up this? I've got this to work on now." And to me, that's someone who's influential, that understands this is a lifelong learning. And that someone that truly respects how they show up everyday not only impacts them as a person, and their values, and their ethics, it also impacts everyone around them, in their personal life and their professional.

Mike:                       Well, and you were speaking, and, you know, personal and professional, what do you think is the greatest lesson you've had dealing with respect in your own life?

Stacey:                   How much time do you have? You know, you've heard me talk about my parents before, and I grew up on a farm, and my parents are 78. My dad retired several years ago literally for six days, and on the seventh day he was back up and doing his thing. He still is. That's where I learned my respect. I remember my dad telling my sisters and I, he always said, "If you show up on time, and you follow through, you will be the top 1%." Now that's my dad's statistic. He gets that from nowhere but up here. That's just his own thing, and I remember as a little girl thinking, "Oh, that's easy."

Stacey:                   Like, "That's all you have to do?" He kept ingraining that, and I watch my dad, I guess a third thing, he would always say, "Be kind to everyone around you. It doesn't matter their culture, it doesn't matter what they do for a living." And my dad modeled that. My dad models all of that to a T. He still does, and that's where I learned this whole idea of respect, that, from little on, I've always been told it doesn't matter who that person is, respect them, as it's someone that you wanna be their best friend, or you admire, and that's pretty basic.

Mike:                       I love it. And you, Monday to Monday. That is your slogan, the Monday to Monday, which, what I love about it is, you know, anybody listening right now should get one word consistently: consistent. Right? That's the word that you have been very consistent about throughout this discussion, and Monday to Monday bleeds it. Right? There's no days off in being yourself, truly yourself. You should always want to. Whether you're at work or at home, you should wanna be that person.

Stacey:                   You just wanna make sure that the best of you shows up, as much as humanly possible.

Mike:                       Yeah.

Stacey:                   And I've heard people say, "Come on. Monday to Monday? You never take a day off?" Well, it's not like taking a day off. Are there times I just lay back and I relax? Of course. But I also, I think, if you'd ask any of our clients, if you'd ask any of my friends, you'd get a pretty similar response from people, and it goes back to where we start this conversation. In my world, that's how I define respect.

Mike:                       Yeah, and what I appreciate about that is I think that if I ran into my friends who love me well, they know I love to dance. I absolutely ... people who know me know I love to dance.

Stacey:                   Remember, that's how I kinda first met you?

Mike:                       That's right.

Stacey:                   Because we were at some event, and you were ... totally had your dance shoes on, I'm like, "He's got it down."

Mike:                       Well, thank you. And there are times where my clients have known it, which I'm cool with, and people are like, "Why would you post that? Why would you ... ?" 'Cause that's who I am. Like, why would I not post that? What's inappropriate about that? There's nothing ... but it, "Well, that's not your topic, or that's not ... " But it's who I am, and what I've learned more is the more I share that the more my clients can trust me because it's not just always talking to us about the topic. Right? That this the same Mike ... I've traveled with Mike, and I've seen him dance at this public square in a city in Greece.

Mike:                       You know, one of my clients saw that happen, 'cause we were all out together and these kids were street dancing and I jumped in, and why not? Right? That's who we are, and I think that's where people make the mistake when they hear Monday to Monday. They think, "Work. I have to work on this Monday to Monday." Versus, are you just being your best person? Everyday I wake up, I wanna be my best self. Whether I'm working or not, I wanna have my best day. An off day especially, right? Why wouldn't you want it to be amazing, and allow yourself to be your truest self?

Stacey:                   Yeah, yeah. I was ... this is on a personal side, I was at a restaurant, this was a couple months ago, and it was two parents, I'm guessing. They were parents, meaning married couple, and they had three little kids. Little kids, and the kids were not exactly well-behaved at the table, and the minute that the mother got up to go to the restroom the kids were angels. It was like turning the faucet, Mike, on and off. The minute she came back it was an absolute circus, and like, okay, what's the consistency there? What's happening?

Stacey:                   I've read stories of ... I had one, this was a while ago, this is in the book, where I was speaking at a conference and the CEO was up on stage presenting, he was kicking off the conference for the week. It was a sales conference, so it's a big deal. They're pulling their sales professionals out of the field for a full week; that's a big deal. And the CFO, she's sitting next to me, and she's on her phone the entire time that he's up there talking about how critical it is that we focus on our development. I'm thinking, "Everyone sees her," because the house lights were on.

Stacey:                   It gets better, she goes up on stage, CEO comes off, the CFO, who was just on her phone, is talking about how critical it is, we've pulled you out on the field all this week, it's so critical to focus on your development this week, we ask that you shut off your phones. And just that moment of, I'm like, "She obviously isn't doing it on purpose; I don't think she got it." That her behavior is on display. We're all on display. I do find, as you climb that corporate ladder, the camera is always on.

Stacey:                   People are watching leadership because they want to try to figure out how do you do it, because you truly are a representation of, not only that team, but I think your company culture as a whole.

Mike:                       Well, and that's what I love about our work, that, when you're a speaker and you're on that stage, everybody's watching you, and when you're off that stage, everybody's watching you. Everybody.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       And people go, "Well, that's the burden of sort of in that public ... " and I don't mean celebrity public life, but where people watch you publicly. "That's the burden of it," and I think, "Well, it shouldn't be a burden if you are who you are. There should be no even thought going into what I'm doing offstage. If I am who I am onstage, then why when I walk off is it a burden to be who I am? The only way it'd be a burden is if I wasn't authentically consistent on that stage, 'cause then I have to put a show on when I'm offstage.

Stacey:                   I've gotten it before, but you can relate, Mike, where you're at the conference, you're at the event, and then you're at the airport and you run into the participants?

Mike:                       Oh yeah.

Stacey:                   I've had participants ... where I'm just, my head's down, I'm working on my laptop or whatever in the terminal, I had someone once come up to me, and they kinda sat and they kinda looked at me and they're like, "Oh my god, you look the same." "Yeah?" I mean, it's just, it's interesting. Or, how many times do you get, when you show up at an event, when you haven't met the planner, or your buyer in person, just over the phone, I've heard a lot of people say, "You look like the person on your website." I'm like, "That's good. I guess that's a compliment, yes."

Stacey:                   But it's little things like that that still scream "respect."

Mike:                       Yeah, I had a person today, or not today, this weekend when I was at an event. I'm offstage, I had spoke, actually, a day or two before so this was the last day of the event, and people were ... someone was talking to me, and when they were talking to me we were into this deep conversation, and then someone else talking to me, we were in this deep conversation, and I walked our, and then a participant did not know I was behind her when she was talking to my wife Karen, and said, "He'll never get out of there. He'll never get out of there because of how deeply he's talking to everybody."

Mike:                       And I was literally six inches from her, she did not know, and Karen pointed at her like, "He's on your shoulder." But what I thought was interesting was that she was surprised that I was having deep conversations with people, because in her mind, speakers don't have time for that. Right? Speakers get off the stage, and they don't make time for us. They leave. So if he is gonna have these deep conversations, you're gonna be here all day, because people would ... it was just interesting the way she thought it out, and she even made a comment that verified that.

Mike:                       You know? And so you're like, "How sad that there's a reputation there that either somebody who's been in the public eye in any way, whether it be from a stage or performance, that they're not gonna care about the people in the room." And so if they do, it's very striking. Which is sad, because shouldn't that be the norm? That's why you came in the room in the first place.

Stacey:                   Yeah.

Mike:                       Well, I wanna thank you. You've been ... gave us so much brilliance today. There's three books you recommend in addition to your own. I'm gonna have the links to all those, Real Leadership, Talk Like TED, and Mastering The Complex Sale, I'm gonna have those links on our website for anybody who wants to check those books out, 'cause I love to share the books that the people I have on are reading, I think that's always powerful.

Stacey:                   Of course. Thank you so much, you're doing amazing work. Keep doing it and influencing everyone around you.

Mike:                       Well thank you, Stacey. For everyone listening, we'd love to have you join us on Facebook. We have a discussion group, the Respect Podcast Discussion Group. Tell us your favorite part of the interview, questions you may have. Dive in there, and of course, we're always at mikespeaks.com if you want to find me.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of the respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org and remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:34:01]

Amy Oestreicher shares an open and honest conversation about PTSD and living life with PTSD. She discusses the role of creativity in a way that is not often discussed. You’ll hear of some wonderful resources in books and more in this thoughtful and helpful discussion with host Mike Domitrz.

 

Links to Amy's book are:

https://www.amazon.com/My-Beautiful-Detour-Unthinkable-Grateful/dp/1733138811/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=dbs_a_w_dp_1733138811

 

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

 

 

Amy Oestreicher is an Audie Award-nominated PTSD peer-to-peer specialist, artist, author, writer for The Huffington Post, speaker for TEDx and RAINN, health advocate, award-winning actress, and playwright. As a survivor and “thriver” of multiple traumas, Amy eagerly shares the gifts of life’s “beautiful detours” her educational programming, writing, mixed media art, performance and inspirational speaking. Amy has headlined international conferences on leadership, entrepreneurship, women’s rights, mental health, disability, creativity, and domestic violence prevention. She is a SheSource Expert, a “Top Mental Health” writer for Medium, and a regular lifestyle, wellness, and arts contributor for over 70 notable online and print publications, and and her story has appeared on NBC’s TODAY, CBS, Cosmopolitan, Seventeen Magazine, Washington Post, Good Housekeeping, MSNBC, among others.

 

To celebrate her own “beautiful detour”, Amy created the #LoveMyDetour campaign, to help others cope in the face of unexpected events. Her passion for inclusion, equity and amplifying marginalized voices has earned her various honors, including a scholarship from the Association for Applied and Therapeutic Humor Professionals, the first annual SHERocks Herstory National Performing Artist Honoree, a United Way Community Helper award, and a National Sexual Education Grant honor. To creatively engage student advocacy efforts, Amy developed a trauma-informed program combining mental health education, sexual assault prevention, and Broadway Theatre for college campuses, organizations and conferences. She has designed a creative curriculum for “Detourist Resiliency,” an outreach program taken to schools, hospitals, and at-risk youth. She also has launched Detourist peer-led chapters on college campuses, Detourist creative arts workshops, and an online community to creatively fight stigma in society through storytelling. “Detourism” is also the subject of her TEDx Talk and upcoming book, My Beautiful Detour, available December 2017.

 

As the 2014 Eastern Regional Recipient of Convatec’s Great Comebacks Award and WEGO Health 2016 “Health Activist Hero” Finalist, and WeGO Health Expert, Amy is a passionate voice in the ostomy community, founding the online community Fearless Ostomates, speaking for National and Regional WOCN conferences, and writing for the official print publication of the UOAA. Her presentations on alternative medicine, and patient advocacy and healthcare have also been accepted to international conferences on patient care, internal medicine, medical trauma and therapeutic humor in hospitals. She has devised workshops for the Transformative Language Arts Network National Conference, the Eating Recovery Foundation, the 40th Anniversary New England Educational Opportunity Association Milestones Conference, the Annual National Mental Health America Conference,2016 American College of Surgeons Clinical Congress, and others. She was the 2016 keynote speaker for the Hawaii Pacific Rim International Conference on Diversity and Disability. and will be the featured keynote speaker at the 2018 International School of Social Work Conference in Ohio.

 

As a playwright, Amy has received awards and accolades for engaging her audiences in dynamic conversation on trauma’s effects on society, including Women Around Town’s “Women to Celebrate” 2014, BroadwayWorld “Best Theatre Debut,” Bistro Awards “New York Top Pick, and the “Singular Award” at the Sarasolo Theatre Festival, presented annually for a “performance that is exceptionally uncommon, groundbreaking, original and inventive.” Amy has written, directed and starred in a one-woman musical about her life, Gutless & Grateful, touring theatres, schools, festivals, conventions and organizations since it’s 2012 New York debut. Gutless & Grateful is currently being licensed to students across the country for academic projects and competitions. Amy spent Fall of 2015 participating as a playwright and performance artist in the National Musical Theatre Institute at the world-renowned Eugene O’Neill Theater Center, where she helped to develop the full-length multimedia ensemble piece, The Greeks Are Trying to Tell Us Something, and was a writer, actress, composer and set designer for “Playwrights and Librettists” – a festival of 27 30-minute plays in five days. Her original, full-length drama, Imprints, exploring the physical and psychological impact of trauma, premiered at the Producer’s Club in 2016, and is currently in development for a full New York production as Flicker and a Firestarter. Her short plays have been published by the Eddy Theatre Company and finalists in Manhattan Repertory Theatre’s Short Play Festival, as well as NYC Playwright’s Women in the Age of Drumpf. Her theatre education essays and monologues have been published in Creative Pedagogy journals, as part of a theatre curriculum for high school students in the Philippines, and as a teaching artist, she is a strong advocate for arts integration and education.

 

Amy’s collaboration with Beechwood Arts on the immersion salon, “Resilience and the Power of the Human Spirit”, has traveled around the world to health and arts facilities as a public installation, incorporating her monologues, art, writing and recipes to express the life-altering detours and ultimately the invaluable gifts of her resilient journey. Amy is also an active artist and teacher in the Jewish community, being honored by United Way in 2005 for her music programs at Hollander House, completing artist residencies at Art Kibbutz, and delivering “Hope, Resilience & Biblical Women” keynotes for synagogues and religious schools. After studying Theatre of the Oppressed in her studies at Hampshire College, she helped to train ACTSmart, a Playback Theatre troupe in Amherst, MA. She is also a passionate arts education advocate, a successful mixed media visual artist, a continuing education studio arts teacher, and an active member of the League of Professional Theatre Women, League for Advancement of New England Storytellers, Fairfield County Cultural Alliance, Alliance for Jewish Theatre, Theatre Artist Workshop, and several art guilds throughout Connecticut and New York.

 

Amy is currently developing a multimedia performance project incorporate her original music compositions with the oral histories of her grandmother, a holocaust survivor with musical director David Brunetti, and developing a new multidisciplinary solo musical based on herthird TEDx Talk this year: healing from trauma through the archetypal hero’s journey. She is also working on a full-length play with music, LEFTOVERS with director and dramaturge Susan Einhorn, based on her life after the surgical ICU. She is leading mixed media creativity and solo performance workshops to promote creativity as a mindset, an essential survival skill. Amy also offers creative coaching and consulting services help others navigate their own “life detours,” and prides herself most on ending each night with a gratitude list.

 

As the creator of Gutless & Grateful, her one-women autobiographical musical, Amy has toured theatres nationwide. She also premiered her drama, Imprints, at NYC Producers Club in May 2016, about how trauma affects the family as well as the victim.

 

Her #LoveMyDetour campaign helps others cope with unexpected events. “Detourism” is also the subject of her upcoming TEDx talk and book My Beautiful Detour.

 

LINKS:

 

Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/amyoestr and facebook.com/lovemydetour

Linkedin: linkedin.com/in/amyoes

Or you can subscribe to G+: https://plus.google.com/u/0/106058010956085677457/posts

Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.com/amyoes70/allspice-acrylics-a-celebration-of-life-and-beauti/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/AmyOes70

Tumblr: https://www.tumblr.com/blog/amyoes

stumbleupon: http://www.stumbleupon.com/stumbler/amyoes700

Bloglovin: https://www.bloglovin.com/blogs/amyoes-14356407

Twitter: @amyoes

Instagram: @amyoes70

 

Link to R.A.I.N.N. (Rape, Abuse, & Incest National Network) at www.rainn.org

 

The Courage to Heal by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to the respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the U.S. military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started. This week's episode, we want to get right into it here 'cause you're going to be incredibly inspired by our guest's journey back to wholeness and reclaiming her voice using creativity as her lifeline. She gratefully discovered the upside of obstacles. Today Amy is a PTSD specialist, artist, author, Tedx, and Rain speaker, award-winning actress, a playwright, and mental health advocate. That is Amy Oestreicher. Thank you, Amy, so much for joining us.

Amy:                         Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Mike:                       Absolutely. And so we want to dive right into this. The show, obviously, is all about respect, but you bring a different perspective in that you talk about PTSD and trauma. And let's get right into that. So when people hear trauma and PTSD, what form, or does it matter, that you're referring to?

Amy:                         Well, what I'm referring to is, there's trauma that comes from many setbacks and many unexpected twists and turns in my life that I didn't expect, that really didn't come to my realization until years and years later. So for PTSD, something can impact us that can completely change our lives overnight, and we might sit with that for a bit, and slowly we feel that something isn't right. I don't feel the same. And slowly those memories come to surface, and I found my way through piecing together those memories and finding healing through creativity. PTSD, for me, started, with being sexually abused by a teacher that I trusted. And an example of a symptom of PTSD is the freeze response, where you don't think anything has happened, and you kind of wake up and go about your life, and think everything's as you were, and suddenly something is off, disassociation, meaning the world is around you, and you're somewhere apart from it wondering what's going on.

Amy:                         I did not say no or fight back, although my mind was clearly thinking those things, but I just froze. I saw myself as somewhere separate. And years later it would take a lot of work to kind of bring those memories to light and start to heal through remembering all of that.

Mike:                       Well, one, I want to thank you for sharing your journey, your strength, your courage as a survivor. And I think this is an important topic because a lot of times when people hear freeze, they think that the natural human response is freeze or flight or fight. They tend to think, oh, most people flight or fight. They think that, and they forget that freeze is actually the most natural human reaction under stress in our DNA system as human beings, because back in the times of cave people, you did not fight the creature there was 20 times larger than you.

Amy:                         Right, right.

Mike:                       You either played dead, freeze, or you ran. Fight was the last thing you did. So a lot of times people hear it and they go, "Why didn't you fight?" Because it's the last innate response that the human body is likely to have because naturally it's to freeze or to run. And in certain situations, running's not an option. Child teacher, you can definitely feel like, I don't have that option. So to freeze is the natural thing to occur, and I think too often people don't realize that.

Amy:                         Exactly.

Mike:                       And so I think for anybody listening, thinking that, saying, "Well, why didn't the person fighter? Or what ..." Those are not innately in our DNA. So the body reacts under stress to its most innate natural things that it thinks it should do, that saved it over thousands of years of human being in existence. And that's what can happen in that moment. Is that true?

Amy:                         It's true, and I love to bring up an amazing resource that I found that, that changed my perspective on the freeze response. It's called ... It's a book called Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. And what caught me, and what you brought up is, Peter Levine spent a lot of time just studying animals in the wild, and he saw that a gazelle when it's kind of running free it ... And a predator attacks it, it just plays dead. And then once the attack is over, it will just get up and just run and run and run and discharge that natural energy and restore its homeostasis and be back to normal. And Peter Levine was like, "Well, why can't humans do that? Why did we get stuck in that?" And, well, we have a brain, and we think ourselves, we overthink ourselves, and we stay frozen in that nestle, that bunches of energy, when really we just need to discharge that energy like the gazelle that is running through the wild. And we need to find a healthy container to get that capsulated energy out and bring it to light.

Amy:                         Eventually through talking about it and sharing it or whatever feels like a release to you, but he really, Peter Levine really took his cues from these animals in the wild that have this freeze response in them, and they know how to know from it. And I think the community really needs to understand what goes on in the freeze response to really support survivors and understand that this may be all tucked in and it needs to be brought to light.

Mike:                       Yeah. And one of the problems that communities can put on survivors at times is trying to understand why the survivor did what they did, instead of not understanding, the issue is what the predator did, not with the survivor did or did not do. To focus on whether the survivor fought back or run is missing the point. It's all about what the predator did. Now we need to be supportive of the survivor so that they can, like you said, be able to live that life, to be able to live a full life.

Amy:                         Right. Or, "Why didn't you tell someone right away?" Your words often come last. Again, It's that you think of a kaleidoscope of ... I am an artist, so I've been creatively ... colors coming together, red anxiety or anger or fear, and the person just does not have those words. I mean, it takes time. But the, I think the important first step is the community needs to be so informed of what the freeze response is and be there for their survivors and believe them.

Mike:                       Yes, well that's essential. And it is interesting because, depending on where PTSD has been discussed, people treat it differently. Military PTSD tends to be treated differently than sexual violence PTSD that's a result of sexual violence, because the military, and I get to work with the military all over the world, we thankfully are grateful from our military. Not everybody is, but a lot of people are. So when they look at the military, they go, "There's a hero who is struggling with something that happened because they sacrificed for our country." And so therefore there's empathy, there's understanding for that person. Yet there's not always the same toward sexual violence survivors. They don't have that same. Why do you think that is?

Amy:                         Well, you have to remember, too, that it took a long time for those stories to be told as well. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor, and I think about how she coped just coming right out of the war before PTSD was even a word. I think for survivors of sexual violence the encouraging part is it now is becoming talked about much more than when it happened to me. And I say keep going with that. But there are more blurry lines with that, especially with what's shown to us on the media, with messages we've gotten from the past from culture and things like that. And now we're all trying to kind of make a new game plan. But it is kind of a fuzzy area because things that have seemed okay to other people in the past, well, now these survivors' stories are being told, and we see that, you know when this happened, this was not okay.

Amy:                         So I think it's our job, to be honest, everyone's job to make those boundaries just as clear that, just as PTSD is an atrocity with certain communities, it is an atrocity with survivors of sexual violence. I'm also a survivor of PTSD from almost 30 surgeries from another unexpected medical-related crisis. And I dealt with the same thing, that once I was done with all my surgeries and stitched up and ready to go, doctors thought, well, the physical part of me was healed, so why couldn't I just move on to the rest of my life? Whenever we encounter any kind of change in our life, where our life seems to just twist overnight, we need that support from those around us to know that it's going to take time for us to process that change, and we need to talk about it.

Mike:                       Yeah. And that's so important. And that goes into you ... In your work you talk about sharing your story and why somebody sharing their story's so important. Can you share for our listeners, our viewers, why that is such an important journey?

Amy:                         Yes. I didn't realize how important it was. My situation was very atypical, I guess. I guess unexpected, like anyone else would, but I was 18, and just a blood clot on caused me to go into many, many surgeries that changed my life overnight. And because of medical circumstances, I was very isolated for almost a decade. And so I didn't really have many people to talk to. I had my doctors, and I had my loving parents, and that's all. But slowly I started to write a little bit, and again, another book that inspired me was Joseph Campbell learning about, uh, the archetypal hero's journey, and I actually found my way through this dark, unanticipated chapter in my life through tracing Joseph Campbell's steps to what makes a hero in society and how they have to go away for a while and then come back transformed. I mean, it's in every Pixar movie, the heroes or in your Star Wars. And so I kind of used that as my own map. And so slowly I was typing.

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Amy:                         Use that as my own map, and so, slowly, I was typing and typing to kind of uncover what I had been through for myself. That was only a very initial step because this was still all me realizing these things for myself. Then, years later, I finally was able to share it through theater, which I had always loved doing as a kid and which I thought was going to be my life. I ended up making that story arc into a one-woman musical that I've been touring since 2012, but it's very funny. That was the first time I'd ever shared anything about what I had been through, and in the very first opening venue in New York, I said one line about the sexual abuse. And it was very difficult for me. I didn't know whether it fit in with everything else, and then, over the years, as I became more and more comfortable with that, talking about it, more people that came to see my show came up to me and said, you know, "Something similar had happened to me." And I'd started the conversation.

Amy:                         And now, I've expanded on the show, where I do go into that a lot and the healing that came come from it and the community that can come, so, I guess, writing my show and performing it was an example, for me, of how just planting the seed of just starting your story and getting to share it and share it and talk to other people, it can make you move on or go to the next step that you need to go to.

Mike:                       And you're a big advocate of using creativity in that process, as you've explained.

Amy:                         Yeah.

Mike:                       So, yeah, you created the show, a one-woman, one-person show, that really has a powerful impact. If somebody's listening, going, "I'm just not creative. I am not an artist. I am not a performer-

Amy:                         No, no, no-

Mike:                       -I get-

Amy:                         -don't say that.

Mike:                       I know. I know, but that's what people are going to thing, so-

Amy:                         I know.

Mike:                       -we need to address that. I think there's a misunderstanding what creativity means, so can you explain what we mean by "creativity" and why-

Amy:                         Totally.

Mike:                       -it's so important and can be such a great resource in the process?

Amy:                         Yes. Creativity is really just a mindset. I couldn't talk for many months after my surgeries because I had all these things going on, tubes in and out of me, and then I couldn't talk at times where I felt too shocked at everything going around me to even say a word. And I missed singing, and I wanted to go back to that. But that's when I started ... I picked up a paint brush by accident in one of the hospitals, started just painting, but by creativity is really just a way to see things differently. So, it means just taking a walk outside, taking a breath, looking at the tree and finding grounding by a tree in a new way. It means cooking a recipe you've always loved. It means putting a little bit of that locked-up energy that you'll ... that passion that was always there before all this that can never be taken away by any kind of trauma. It just gets frozen like a gazelle. You're playing dead.

Amy:                         Creativity is a way to unlock that clenched-up energy and just bring it forward, and don't worry about the final steps of "Well, how am I gonna tell about what happened to me?" Just focus on that, those uncomfortable feelings you might feel in the freeze response, which is the anxiety, the pain, the fear. Feel that energy and see if there's a color. Start with that and see it in the sky or something and really just ... I got to say one more time, before you start working about how we're gonna show it to the community, just focus on getting out that energy for yourself and seeing that you were in there all along. You just got bring it to life somehow.

Mike:                       Yeah. And you can choose to never share it with the community. It could be your process for your own journey.

Amy:                         Exactly.

Mike:                       And that's what I love about how you're describing creativity. I have always remembered. I was speaking to a doctor, and I work with a doctor who's both general practitioner and also holistic, so both sides of the equation.

Mike:                       And he was once saying to me, "Hey, Mike, on a scale of one to three in how you feel the world [inaudible 00:16:49] the world, you're a three, very high, like, off-the-charts three. You feel everything in the world, which means you're a high creative," and I jumped back and went "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't do art. I don't write music. I love to sing, but I'm horrible at it. Like, I do not have artistic traits." And he went, "What? You get on stage and you share with people your thoughts and ideas. That's a very creative process in how that works and how you put the thoughts together and how you connect, and you're a massive problem-solver. That's what you love to do." So, that's all creativity, so I think-

Amy:                         Oh, yeah.

Mike:                       -for people listening, pause and go, "Are you a problem-solver? Because if you are, that's a high-level form of creativity. You're trying to creatively come up with a solution when you're problem-solving."

Amy:                         Exactly. Yeah. It just means taking an unexpected turn and saying, "All right. I'll go with it and see what happens." And we never know what's coming next, so if you have creativity, that is your best resource because then you can just say, "Okay, unexpected twist, I'm gonna just follow you and use my magic reassembling creativity problem-solving skills to figure out whatever comes next."

Mike:                       Yeah. And it's very natural, as a Buddhist approach, that we let go of the outcome, right, that we be present in the journey, let go of the outcome because when you're outcome-focused, it actually kills your creativity because-

Amy:                         And [inaudible 00:18:11] the outcome.

Mike:                       -you're creating pressure. Right. You're saying there has to be this end result versus actually just being free to the possibilities. That's creativity.

Amy:                         Exactly.

Mike:                       It is freedom of possibility, so I love that conversation.

Amy:                         Open mind.

Mike:                       Yes. Yeah, exactly. How do you think we help society as a whole have a universal empathy when we can't relate to what somebody else has been through? Somebody hears that and goes, "Well, why didn't they do this?" Or "Why didn't they do that?" And what's happening is they're watching through their lenses. They're thinking through their lenses and thinking, "I would've done this. At least, I think I would've. So, how in the world did they do that?" How do we help people understand that empathy means, "I don't think about it how I would've done it. I think about what they must have been going through, and I will never-

Amy:                         Right.

Mike:                       -fully understand it 'cause I wasn't there, but at least I'm trying to be compassionate from that viewpoint?"

Amy:                         Right. I mean, I come from an acting background, and the first thing I remember learning is awareness without judgment. We're aware of everyone else around us, of everything else around us, but we don't judge. But, with these circumstances, I think, honestly, having been through it and now supporting other survivors of violence, I really think we all need to up our game and, again, be educated on PTSD and the various responses that can only not ... not only affect the survivors themselves, but the people that care about them. It can affect other communities and things they're going through. I mean, trauma both a universal and historical and ... we'll keep going because life changes. So, I think we're all better off if we understand what can happen, and we're ... as humans, we're all always going to think, "Well, I would've done this," or "I would've said 'No,'" or "I would've ...."

Amy:                         I think, again, we can have those thoughts, but at the end of the day, we really have to understand that this is trauma. And I want to be open to whatever this person is sharing with me or chooses to share.

Mike:                       Yeah.

Amy:                         It's having respect.

Mike:                       That's just it. It's treating everybody with respect and dignity, and in the wake of sexual violence, sometimes there's destructive coping strategies that show themselves-

Amy:                         Exactly.

Mike:                       -for a survivor and that can amplify symptoms of PTSD. And you used the word "victimization." Couple things. Those listening, when we say "destructive," what do we mean by that 'cause they might understand what that means and how do you help somebody who's experiencing that?

Amy:                         So, destructive coping mechanisms. I'm gonna go back to that energy that survivors feel that has not been discharged. When we carry a secret, [inaudible 00:21:14] are like poison. They burdensome. They weigh down, and so those can often be coped with in anything from drugs and alcohol to other symptoms to any other way that we can find to become numb, whether it's scrolling up and down on Facebook all day. It's any way that we are trying to ignore that energy and kind of just close off and not deal with those things, and it takes a lot of bravery and a lot of courage to really look at that energy for what it is and maybe even remember a bit of what happened and how you felt. But it's a very important part of the process because all those destructive coping mechanisms ... really, it's about energy. Think of that energy that the gazelle wishes they could be running off and around with. It's that energy we need to get out, that we feel like we have to close down.

Mike:                       Well, and I want to step in there because I, in this line of work ... and I'm sure you run into the same thing. People come up to me and go, "I have someone close to me in my life who either I know or I highly suspect is a survivor of sexual violence, but they have not told anyone. And I can see the destructive coping strategies in their life. How do I help them?" And what happens when they ask that question is there's two approaches. There's the "How do I help them? How do I support them?" And there's the "How do I fix them?" Which are two very different approaches.

Amy:                         Yeah. [inaudible 00:23:02] true.

Mike:                       Help and support is what people need. Being fixed is never gonna work with a human being. You don't fix people. I've made that mistake of trying to be a fixer in my life over [inaudible 00:23:12]. There were times, where I looked back, when I was trying to fix the person versus be supportive of the person, so how do we, instead of trying to fix them, how do we provide support when it's ... they're not asking for it? They have not come forward. I mean, verbally, asking for it. They're not outwardly saying, "Will you support me? Will you help me?" They haven't even told anyone that they are struggling with this. How do you help and support that person?

Amy:                         And, honestly, they're role is very, very different because I think it's human instinct to want to fix people. When we see people struggling, we want to reach out, and we want to help them so badly. Surprisingly, the best way to help and support is not such a hands-on, fixing approach as you might have wanted. It's to really just ... being there as-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Amy:                         It's really just being there as a listener, as a gentle, compassionate listener. And if you need to say, "I believe you" ... It's taking in the words they're saying or whatever they're giving you.

Mike:                       Yeah, because they might not tell you. They might not be in a believe you moment, because they might not tell you. And that's why saying that I'm here for you. If anything ever has happened or ever does, that's the language we teach our audiences. If anybody ever has or does. That way you're opening the door to possibilities of what could've already happened or what could happen in the future. It's so important for the person to understand, I'm here for you. And then the tough part is, you have to be patient.

Amy:                         Right.

Mike:                       Because they may not want to tell you for ten years, and that's their journey. It's not your right to invade and change their journey on them. Or ever. Or maybe they want to tell you right then, but it's their journey which means you have to be patient and understand this isn't about me finding out, or me being told. It's about them and being present for them.

Amy:                         Yeah. And for those of you that are listening going, "That's it?" I get it, it's so simple and it's so difficult to just leave it at that, just be there. But it's that support. I always go back to theater and military veterans that the Greek plays of Sophocles about war and all those things. Those were originally meant for veterans of the war to come in and share their story to the community to get that community compassion, to have people know what they were going through. And there are other rituals that we still do today like dancing and group singing and all those things that show that our need for community is so important. So, survivors of sexual violence, if you feel kind of that no one in the community understands you, please know that coming back to the community is just such an important part of healing, even if it's scary. And for those that see these people struggling, just welcome them in and don't ask questions, don't demand answers. Just, we need to stay welcome with open arms.

Mike:                       I love that you pointed out "Don't ask questions." Because that sounds like you're prying and you're investigating, which can very quickly turn into ... whether intentional or not, unintended victim-blaming is what can happen there.

Amy:                         Right.

Mike:                       So just listening is so important. Now, a great resource out there that you speak for, you're a RAINN speaker, is RAINN. Which for anybody listening is Rape Abuse and Incest National Network, RAINN.org. They also have an eight hundred number on their website, and you can call them and it's actually 656-HOPE, I think, is the eight hundred number. But you can call, you can email, and they'll hook you up with resources locally that are confidential and twenty-four seven. They can tell you what those are, but they can also just start by being there for you. It's a great organization. What are some additional resources that you feel are vital for survivors to know if somebody's listening right now and is experiencing PTSD?

Amy:                         Right. So, first of all, I can't say enough good things about RAINN. They will connect you to anything ... and anonymously. I know a lot of people who are worried about saying who they are or saying who they feel the perpetrator was. You don't have to worry about that. They will take you wherever you are right now. Some books that really helped me again were Waking the Tiger by Peter Levine. He started this whole kind of therapy with the body called somatic experiencing, which is all about using breath work to really feel your body again. And another book that helped me understand is called The Body Keeps the Score by Dr. Bessel Van Der Kolk. But in terms of online resources, PTSD.org, there are so many resources there.

Mike:                       So you just said that's PTSD.org?

Amy:                         Yes.

Mike:                       Okay, I just want to make sure we have all that on our show notes, for anybody who's listening so they can find that there.

Amy:                         Right. And again, any of these places will connect you to someone ... Oh, no, that's not even there anymore. Oh my God. I will have to send you a new link for that. I'm sorry about that.

Mike:                       Which link are you referring to?

Amy:                         I was actually referring to PTS-

Mike:                       Oh, yes, you're right, I see that now. There's nothing there. So that's okay, we'll have the link to RAINN-

Amy:                         I will get you-

Mike:                       -and we'll have links to all the books you've brought up, we'll have that in the show notes. Let's get into some more books here that you recommend for people. One is your own, your book, My Beautiful Detour. Another one is New World Theater Solitary Voice: A collection of epic monologues. And then you have Nevertheless We Persisted by Tanya Eby and others. If you want to dive in, why those three books? Obviously we'll start with yours, My Beautiful Detour.

Amy:                         That's on pre-order now, I'm very excited for that because it is the whole story of a long-winded detour and lots of PTSD, where I felt very isolated and felt like no one understands me, I can't reach out for help, who would get this? But then how all this creativity ... and I say "creativity" in this general term of a mindset, kind of figuring this out as I went along ... how that really helped me along my journey. And eventually how I was able to reach out. I talk about being a detourist, where you see a detour in the path and you find a little creativity and find your way through. So besides talking about my story and how I healed, I also have a lot of really good plans for when life crashes over night and you need to find a way out again. So, I hope it's helpful.

Mike:                       Absolutely. Well, I appreciate that. It's in a pre-order so it's still on its way, but people can get it now, so as soon as it comes out. And then, New World Theater Solitary Voice: A collection of epic monologues. What about that one?

Amy:                         Well, again, I listed these because, again, the monologue that I wrote for this is actually how I originally discovered I was sexually abused, by picking up a book on a bookshelf, which is really the important resource that I wanted to bring up called The Courage to Heal, Laura Davis, and I'll have to ... The Courage to Heal really saved my life. It's a workbook for survivors of sexual violence and since then there have been editions for their caretakers to fill out with the survivors. There have been many recent versions, but I can't say enough about the book, The Courage to Heal. So, this book that just came out has a monologue where I talk about that first time that I take that up.

Amy:                         And then this last, Nevertheless We Persisted, is actually a collection. It was nominated for an Audie Award this spring of monologues and stories about finding a voice in total darkness. So I hope those performances are very inspiring, as well.

Mike:                       No, I appreciate that. And your book and your stories, you're getting the messages out there. Now, the one book that you just mentioned, The Courage to Heal, if somebody's looking for that, there's two different versions by completely different authors. There's How to Overcome Sexual Abuse and Childhood Trauma. There's also A Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse. Which one were you referencing?

Amy:                         Right. So I was referencing the one that originally changed my life by Laura Davis and Ellen Bass.

Mike:                       Got it, the Guide for Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse, okay.

Amy:                         Right.

Mike:                       Just so our listeners are hearing, I want to make sure we give them the right one. And we'll have that in the show notes, we're going to have all these in the show notes.

Amy:                         Yes.

Mike:                       So I want to thank you so much, Amy.

Amy:                         Thank you.

Mike:                       For everyone listening, this is Amy Oestriecher.

Amy:                         Hi.

Mike:                       Our show notes will have all of the links to Amy, 'cause she gave us a lot for social media. All these books, I'm going to have it all there so you can find it all there. Remember you can also jump in this discussion on Facebook, we have a discussion group called The RESPECT Podcast discussion group, jump in there on the conversation, subscribe on iTunes. We love it if you leave a review, too, that always helps. So, Amy, thank you so much for joining us.

Amy:                         Thank you. Thank you.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The RESPECT Podcast, which was sponsored by The DATE SAFE Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:33:25]

Discover how Tom Antion built a multi-millionaire dollar business with a one-sentence mission stated based in RESPECT as he shares with host, Mike Domitrz

 

* You are invited to join our community and conversations about each episode on FaceBook at https://www.facebook.com/MutuallyAmazingPodcast and join us on Twitter @CenterRespect or visit our website at http://www.MutuallyAmazingPodcast.com**

 

 

Tom Antion is an Internet multimillionaire and lifelong entrepreneur who has built his business on treating people right. He's got a one sentence "respect filled" business plan he's lived by for 44 years.

 

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host Mike Domitrz from Mike Speaks dot com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. Respect is exactly what we discuss on this show so let's get started.

Mike:                       Welcome to this episode. I want to get right into it with our guest here Tom Antion. I've known Tom for now almost two decades. He's an internet multimillionaire and lifelong entrepreneur who has built his business on treating people right. He's got a one sentence respect-filled business plan he's lived by for 44 years. Tom, thank you so much for joining us.

Tom:                         Mike, it's been a long ... Too long, man.

Mike:                       It has been too long. Let's start there. What have you been up to in the last 16 years since we originally met at the NSA ... Actually the very first time was the NSA [inaudible 00:00:52] event.

Tom:                         Yeah. Even before that the last 24 years I got on the commercial internet when the commercial internet started around 1994. I've been selling like crazy on the internet. No spamming, no porn, but all kinds of products and services. Part of what I wanted to talk to you about today was a topic called excellence.

Tom:                         I didn't know anything about the internet. Nobody did back in 1994. When we started learning about it it led me to a lot of other things. We can get into it later but the topic of excellence is really ingrained in me by my dad as do everything you can to the greatest of your ability. That's respect for yourself and it's projecting respect to people around you.

Mike:                       Let's get right into that then because when a lot of people think, "Oh, I made a lot of money on the internet" you were doing it in ways that were common sense but going against the norm. For all of our listeners to get an idea, Tom, while people were trying to say, "Let's build beautiful amazing websites", Tom would say, "No, no, no. It could be the ugliest website in the world. If it gets people to my site and it helps them get what they need that's what's important."

Mike:                       You built very content rich, very keyword-loaded sites on things like ... You had to once write ... This story I've never forgotten. You were giving a toast at a wedding and you started looking up, "Hey, where do I find toasts?" You thought, "Hey, people are constantly looking for this." You sold an ebook on toasts for weddings that did very, very well by just helping people find it and get what they needed.

Tom:                         $72,000 a year for nine years straight. Selling [inaudible 00:02:36]

Mike:                       Right. That's just amazing.

Tom:                         I also had one, I don't know if you know about it, called Instant Eulogy. People were also desperate at the last minute. They're distraught. I helped them ... That was $42,000 a year for nine years straight helping people with eulogies. It's all based around helping people. That's what we all do is help people and there's a value to that.

Mike:                       I'm glad you brought that up. I think a lot of times people think of internet sales, internet marketing. They have this negative stereotype that often as a company such industries as used car sales or that there's this ambulance chasing lawyer concept, that they're manipulating people to buy versus serving people, being present to what people need, and providing that too them, which is exactly what the eulogy situation was, exactly what the best man speech was. It was saying, "Hey, here's a need that somebody is not filling."

Tom:                         Well, yeah. I will say that there is a respect involved in manipulating people. Think about that. Again, I'm always going to go the other direction, right? I know ... In fact, you talked about scams. I started a ... There's a TV show in development in Hollywood called Scam Brigade. It's me going after bad people. The industry is fraught with it.

Tom:                         If I know that I'm going to take care of you as a customer and keep you from being robbed by other people I want to get you to buy my stuff because not only do I believe that it's going to help you, I know that I'm going to keep you away from getting robbed by unscrupulous people. There's a respect in there from my point of view. I call it manipulation but I'm manipulating you for your own good. That's the thing.

Mike:                       Yeah. Let's discuss that, Tom. Are you manipulating or are you helping people find what they need? Why are you comfortable with the word ... Some people would argue. Why are you comfortable with the word manipulation?

Tom:                         I'm comfortable because when you come from a position of goodness where you know you're in the other person's field, you've got a fiduciary relationship to take care of that person, I don't care what you call it really. I just know that if you go with me I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to make sure you get great value. This is my one sentence business plan I was telling you about.

Tom:                         I've lived this way since I was 10 years old. If every business on Earth would live by this one sentence instead of spending $100,000 to develop a mission statement, this one sentence will do it. I create quality products that somebody actually wants at a reasonable price and I service them after the sale.

Tom:                         Every piece of that is respect for the customer but it can make you a lot of money. There's no sin in that as long as you're given that great value, showing respect, not fleecing the people because they don't know any better, which is very common nowadays. I don't really care what you call it. I want you to do ... Anybody out there, not just me. If you really believe ...

Tom:                         Like you, the work you do with the DATE Project and all that stuff. You know you're going to keep people from getting out and getting in trouble, right? You believed that for most of the time I ever knew you, right?

Mike:                       Right.

Tom:                         You better darn well get people to go through your program to keep them ... Yours has bigger ramifications than mine does. Mine you might have trouble making a car payment if you don't do it but you there could be lifelong ramifications or not have a life if they don't do what you say. If you manipulate somebody to get somebody to listen to you, I'm cool with it. Totally cool with it.

Mike:                       I love this language. I think it's very fascinating. Would somebody say there's a difference in influence and manipulation? In other words, manipulation is getting you to do something you wouldn't otherwise do?

Tom:                         It has a negative connotation.

Mike:                       It does, right? It has a very negative connotation. That you're getting somebody to do something that they wouldn't do but as I say that I recognize that's not negative. To get somebody to do something they wouldn't normally do is not negative. It could be incredibly powerful.

Mike:                       Maybe the difference here is that somebody is listening here and thinking, "Wait, wait, wait. You're describing education versus manipulation." Manipulation has a sense that it's only about what the seller wants, not about what's good for the buyer maybe, right?

Mike:                       That if we're educating and that inspires people to take action they would not normally take that's different than manipulation, which means it's all about me getting you to do what I want you to do. Maybe that's the difference there?

Tom:                         It's just semantics to me. As long as I'm coming from a good place and I can help you be in a better place you could call it whatever you want. I don't really care.

Mike:                       Well, I love that about you, Tom. You've always had that approach of, "I'm not worried what people say about me. I'm not worried what people care about me." In that, if I know that I'm doing the right thing that's what matters in the end. You describe that in your one sentence mission statement that you've always had.

Mike:                       You mentioned there briefly that there's this documentary that you're working on. I think there's two elements here, right? There's a show that you're working on about busting scams. I know of one that you worked on busting years ago. Then there's also a documentary about your life.

Tom:                         Yeah. That is something where ... Do you remember Dottie Walters?

Mike:                       Yes.

Tom:                         Dottie Walters got me started in speaking in 1991. A bizarre story about how I got hooked up with her. I ended up being her right coast son because I would help her every time she would do her Speak and Grow Rich seminars on the East Coast. I would just go for free and help just to be involved and learn.

Tom:                         I ended up speaking at her memorial service in California when she passed. A producer/director saw me and was introduced to me and it was, "Hello. How are you?" It was a solemn occasion. That was the last I thought of it.

Tom:                         Then a couple years later she had been following me and she approached me. She has done 38 documentaries. She approached me about doing one. I thought, "Man, I thought you had to be dead to have a documentary done about you. They must be lowering their standards or something. I don't know."

Tom:                         She said, "I'd like to do a documentary about the American entrepreneur. From what I've seen you're the man." I said, "Wow. What an honor." It's been three or four years in the making. It's going to premiere probably in the fall. The trailer is out now. It's beautiful. At Facebook dot com ... Well, maybe you can put it in the show notes or something.

Mike:                       Yeah. We'll put it in the show notes. Absolutely.

Tom:                         The trailer. Yeah. It's me and it's a celebration of the American entrepreneur, the American spirit. I just happen to be the figurehead but there's just you and there's thousands of people out there that could be the subject of this. It was a great honor to be featured in that.

Mike:                       That's very cool. Now the show you're working on busting scams. If somebody said, "Wait a second. You just said that if I'm getting you to do something I want you to do, you call it manipulation [inaudible 00:09:52] What's the difference in that and a scam?"

Tom:                         Well, the difference in that is that the person that is the scammer is manipulating you for the purpose of robbing you in some fashion. That's a whole different ... I mean, that's diametrically opposed to what I'm talking about with protecting people.

Mike:                       Right.

Tom:                         That's the whole thing is taking advantage of people. I mean, I think we've worked the figures up. 120,000 people, elderly people, last year lost their homes from the Jamaican lottery scam. They thought they were taking advantage of. They thought they won the lottery. They have to send the tax money in advance and, boom, there's no lottery and they couldn't make their house payment.

Tom:                         A lot of younger people ... The reason I'm having a little trouble getting the show sold is because it's not in the demographic ... The elderly people are not in the demographic that TV likes. I try to explain to them, "Look, the young people are going to lose their inheritance if they don't teach and pay attention to their elders being taken with scams." They kind of got that. They told me for sure, don't quit your day job, because it's Hollywood, right?

Mike:                       Right. Right. They're selling to a certain audience.

Tom:                         Yeah. Yeah.

Mike:                       We talked about this just a moment ago. You believe in excellence in everything you do, whether it's the documentary or a TV show. How do you feel that excellence and respect do go hand in hand? In my heart, I think, "Well, of course they go hand in hand because excellence requires you to respect your self and your mission and what you're doing."

Tom:                         Well, excellence it also has hidden benefits. For instance, when I got started in speaking 1991, I had come out of a crazy entertainment company. I've had a lot of fun businesses in my life. A lot of people said, "Hey, you're better than a lot of people that have been charging $4000 and $5000." I said, "Well, I don't know anything about hotels ..." I was doing parties, birthday parties and stuff. I said, "I better study and learn how to be a speaker in hotel rooms and ..."

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Tom:                         I better study and learn how to be a speaker, and hotel rooms, and corporations, and all that stuff. So I started studying like crazy and my library in here, I have probably 200 books on public speaking, every tape that was ever made, everything from NSA. I've got all of it. And so I started doing it just to make myself better and so that I could really compete in the speaking world. And, where excellence comes in, and this is what my dad taught me, he said when you're excellent people will notice. And so again I'm not trying to blow my horn but I got so good people started begging me to teach them how to be good, as a good speaker. And that led me to write the Wake 'em Up speaking book, the Wake 'em Up video professional speaking system, amazing public speaking took me a whole different route.

Tom:                         Fast forward to 1994 when the commercial internet came along and I said, "Oh are you kidding me? It's hard enough to sell my stuff across the street let alone around the world from my desktop. I'm going to figure this out." So I started studying like crazy, didn't make a nickel for the first two years. Got good at it. Got some good training in '96. Four years later I was a multimillionaire and people were begging me to teach them this stuff, again trying to be excellent for me and respect me and what I can do for the world, showed other people that hey this guy is good. So it led me into this internet training path. I never planned on being Mr. Internet Guru, ever. I just wanted to sell my stuff around the world.

Tom:                         So all of this is trying to be excellent for yourself shows such a massive respect for yourself and for the medium that you're learning, other people get inspired by that and so I believe that's a form of respect for them.

Mike:                       Well I think there's also a respect in there that you were going to learn everything you could to be successful and then you sold people how to do that because you did it.

Tom:                         Exactly. I wasn't selling a book report.

Mike:                       Because for instance in the speaking industry there can be people who are barely speaking charging people a lot of money on how to be a professional speaker and that's not common but it happens and people need to be aware of like, "Whoa whoa whoa, you need to be watching who you're learning from there, that might not be the best resource." Where you were saying, "No I'm going to ace this myself, and then teach others how I aced it."

Tom:                         Without even thoughts of teaching people. I want to do it extremely well because my dad, and I remember my dad I'm 10 years old he came from Syria back in the early 1900s he put the first electric light bulb in Carnage Pennsylvania, he had his own electrical contracting company at 13 years old at Carnage Pennsylvania. And I was, remember watching him one day, he was wiring a box and I said, "Dad why don't you just cut the wires across on an angle, save some wire." He looked at me like I'll smack you. He said, "You crazy? I'm going to make it perfectly lined up so that somebody looks at this job they'll know a professional did it." Boy do I, I'm getting goosebumps, good pimples, I remember it vividly. He said, "And also if somebody has to work on this later, it will be easy for them to work on. So don't you ever do something that's not great."

Tom:                         We were blue collar, total blue collar. But I'll never forget that and that's the way I've lived my whole life.

Mike:                       I love that, that you for sharing that. How do you think, or what's way to make sure you're living with respect in that everyday life. That's a great way in work, make sure everything I do is with excellence.

Tom:                         Well to me, is that along the topic of respect, you will never see me at a restaurant being all snooty with my black Amex card and giving the waiter or waitress some kind of, or treating them like they're dirt. You will never see that. In fact if you were sitting there with me and doing it, I'll leave and hell with you, because you're not the person I want to be around. That person is doing a good work and doing whatever they're life is and trying to take care of me and give me respect there's no way I'm going to lord over them. So that's just an every day example of treat everybody with respect.

Tom:                         There's another one. There's a student I have, I was speaking at a big event, nobody would talk to this guy. He was dressed like some kind of halfway hippy, halfway Indian, feathers hanging off, he had no teeth. I don't know. And nobody would talk to him. And I'm standing by there and he just started asking me questions and I'm happy to talk to him. He ended up being one of my best customers. He's a best selling author on some off beat topic and nobody would talk to him because he looked funny. So, that's not the way to treat people.

Tom:                         I mean I'm very fortunate, you're fortunate, and everybody deserves respect. You know what, even people, rotten people deserve respect. I remember, I've been a lifelong self defense and martial arts practitioner, and I remember studying with an Aikido guy back way, way years ago, and this is one of these guys that had to go to Japan for two years to hold a bow. And he had to pull the bow for two years before they let him have an arrow. That's serious stuff. And he was teaching me this thing called an S-Lock one time and it's like, you could really put a hurt on somebody. And he says Tom you hold it like this and then you bow to the person, show respect to your enemy. Of course they're screaming bloody murder and that stuck with me too. Even your enemies. You can respect, you can't let them take advantage of you but you have to respect them.

Mike:                       Yeah we talk about this in the US Military ...

Tom:                         Were you in the military?

Mike:                       No I didn't serve in the military but I work with the military. I'm working with the military. The Geneva Convention clearly states that if you run across the enemy and they are in dire need of help and you are safely able to help them, it's your responsibility to help them because all human beings are to be treated with dignity and respect and a big reason for that is prisoner's of war, if ours are captured they are treated with dignity and respect, which means we have to treat others with dignity and respect.

Mike:                       So whenever somebody comes to me and goes well not all people deserve dignity and respect, well yeah they all do. The moment you think they all don't, means you think you're above certain people. That's not living from a space of respect that's living from a place of arrogance, there's a difference.

Mike:                       And you've talked about in fact, when somebody pushes your limits of respect, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by when somebody pushes your limits of respect?

Tom:                         Well, when you come from a place of power and respect for others you can recognize very easily when somebody doesn't have that attitude, right. And so without, and it all comes from probably my self defense and martial arts study in that ... Well there's a guy I can't think of his name right now but he has a program called You're Dead and You Don't Even Know It, and somebody is getting in his face and he is thinking of the 100 different ways he can just tear this guy to pieces and I have the same kind of skill, not at good as this guy, but ...

Tom:                         And so when you have the kind of feeling, that I could do this to you but I, there's something in your system that doesn't deserve it, something happened to you to make you like this and as long as you don't cross the line I'm going to treat you with respect and treat you with, I don't want to say disdain I don't know the word for it, but I'm going to feel sorry for you rather than get all up and say, "Let's go buddy." That's what weak people do.

Tom:                         So coming from that power, you could say they didn't reserve it, deserve it at that moment for what they were doing but as long as they don't cross the line and hurt somebody that's innocent or cross the line to cause me harm there's no reason for me to escalate it. I'm going to deescalate it and I'll walk away. If people are saying, "Oh you big sissy," well I saved that guy's life pretty much so I'll live with that.

Mike:                       Yeah it's describing really leading with compassion and empathy over bullying or domination. Right? Because you have the ability to dominate in that moment but you decide wait there's got to be a reason this person is coming from this place. Something has triggered this behavior, somewhere. And that's so important because I run into people traveling the world doing this work and who'll say well you know you can't just do that for everyone and you have ... This one person I met they're so bad, yeah but how do you get there?

Tom:                         Yeah exactly. I had good parents, I had you know a shirt on my back, food, you know, and some of these people I mean I did some fundraisers for these, I did a fundraiser, I raised a whole load of money for a bunch of homeless kids, homeless is considered you have a different place to live or no place to live every 30 days, for kids. I didn't have that. So when those kids grow up there's going to be some scars and it's going to come out in certain ways and so I just have to think man I had it good as long as they don't hurt me or hurt somebody innocent I got to say wonder, how they got there. What happened to them to make that happen.

Mike:                       Yeah and I think that's so brilliant to recognize, I had it so good. And I think what happens is when you're in a position of, and that's the reference to privilege, where those kids didn't get control over that. We also didn't get Control, those of us who feel we were raised in a stable home with wonderful loving parents. We didn't get to chose that, that's what we were born into. They didn't get to chose their situation. And we're going to have different negatives out of our loving home. There are negatives that we're going to miss out, we're not going to see things that others, somebody would have saw coming from a different home. There's going to be pluses and minuses to that and to say, "Well I made it okay," well yeah but you made it under very different circumstances than that person made it. So I think it's so brilliant that you brought that up. For you, when you hear the word respect what does it mean?

Tom:                         Well it's ingrained so much in me in that I'm not going to dominate the conversation, I mean just, I like that I'm a pretty simple guy, bring things down to just the, like I said I came from the sticks and a handshake meant something. So if I'm at a party, even though I'm Mr. Big Shot Speaker and I'm known everywhere I'm not going to stand there and talk about myself. I want to know about you. I want to show respect to you by bringing out you and what you've been doing and honestly not looking over your shoulder to, who's more important than you. That's a simple every day, I like to bring the every day things, how you can show respect and that would be a show up respect is ask the other person what they've been doing. And you can learn something from doing that. So, to me it's more of the every day little things.

Tom:                         In fact when people ask me what religion I am, I really confuse them. I say, "I'm Poseidon." Poseidon? They're looking at their friends like, "What I've never heard of that, that must be some cult or something." I say, no back in the old days there was a move called the Poseidon Adventure, they have a remake lately but the originally was Gene Hackman and Shelly Winters on this ship that was kind of like the Titanic ...

Mike:                       I remember it.

Tom:                         Alright, well Gene Hackman, I was much younger then, I don't remember what year it was, but he was on stage, excuse me, on deck, doing a sermon and he said, "You take the little piece of God in you and do good for people," And that was like a sledgehammer to my head. I'm thinking you cannot go too far wrong with that attitude in life. And from that moment on that's

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Tom:                         With that attitude in life and from that moment on, that's been in my mind. That's my religion, that's my spiritual guide, is take the little piece of God in you, do good for people. I don't go to church every Sunday, I'll admit that. You'd have to get maybe a lightning rod if I got near it, but take the little piece of God so that's respect for doing good things. If you have the attitude, I'm going to try to do good for you before I do good for me. That's another thing my dad taught me, give before you get. So all of these little things are everyday things that I live and I'm attracted to people that live like that because it shows respect all the time, not just when it's convenient.

Mike:                       Is there a time in your life where you can you remember, where you failed to give yourself respect and the lesson you got out of that experience?

Tom:                         Yeah. I think it was the time I went to college on a football scholarship to West Baygon Virginia University and at that time, I mean all the time, from the time it's midget football till everybody could kill you at that level, that level of athleticism, so I'm working out like crazy. And then when I got out of that, it was like, "Oh, my God, I never want to see a weight room again." I mean it's 15 straight years of that, two a day exercise, all that stuff. And so I let my weight. I went up of 360 pounds or something so I don't think I was paying much respect to myself there and I struggled with that a lot over the years.

Tom:                         I had some trouble with my mother was, my dad was great, my mother not so much. But I got a handle on it now only by finding a certain kind of diet. I'm on a ketogenic diet, which is extremely low carbs, high-fat, which is opposite. Again, look at me, opposite of everything else all the time but it's the only thing that's worked so I dropped about 100 pounds and so I got a good handle on that now, but that was a long period of really not respecting the, luckily I got good genes from my dad and a strong foundation of working out for 15 years like a maniac. So I'd say that's my biggest obvious one.

Mike:                       Well, and I noticed the difference right away when, for those who are listening, Tom and I can see each other because we always do these shows also on YouTube so you can watch that. As soon as I saw you, I noticed. Wow, I said, in my mind I'm like it looks like Tom has lost a lot of weight.

Tom:                         Yeah.

Mike:                       But what I think is beautiful about that is it was a choice you made to respect yourself, to take that journey.

Tom:                         Yeah, it took a long time to do it and that's the thing about things, folks. All these aren't always easy. I mean, it might be time when your steak is cold, you want to give that waiter or waitress some guff, but you got to hold back and you got to say, you got to have your own self respect to say, no, I'm not going to make a fool of myself and embarrass that person over a steak that I probably ate too much already. So the delayed gratification, our friend that put us together recently, Caroline De Pasada, you knew her dad, right?

Mike:                       Absolutely.

Tom:                         Yeah. He's the one that made that famous, that marshmallow study about delayed gratification. And so for those that don't know, they showed these little kids some marshmallows and said, "Hey, we'll give you one if you don't eat it in 15 minutes, we'll give you two." And then most of the kids ate it and some didn't. And they followed them over a period of years. All the ones that had the delayed gratification we're successful and everything. And then the other ones were having problems. So I think it's the same thing with respect. In this case, I had to fight a long time to get that one piece of my life that wasn't working right to respect myself and had I given up or quit too soon, where would I be? I'd probably be in death row from a heart attack or something or diabetes or who knows. So sometimes it takes longer to realize the respect that you want to give yourself or others.

Mike:                       Well, and I appreciate that because I think when people hear these conversations they think, "Oh, he's got it all." Right?

Tom:                         Oh yeah.

Mike:                       Right. That's the mistake, that because of this level of success, and they have these messages. They've lived by of respect. They've got it all. What they don't realize is no matter where we're coming from, there's some area we could be better at that we don't give the same kind of focus, respect of that we do other areas. And so it's constantly looking at our whole picture and saying, where is that happening now for me? Because it's happening somewhere, right? There's so many balls in the air.

Tom:                         And you can always get knocked in the face. In 1988, I was living in a vacant house on a mattress. I don't want to say like a country music song. My dog got run over or my truck got stolen. But I had my nightclub when I had a nightclub for six years. Then the drinking age went from 18 to 21 in a college town. I was going to be a millionaire before I was 30, wiped out, lost $400000 and I was playing racquetball, tore my achilles tendon and a partner I had had not paid the health insurance. So I'm living in a vacant house on a mattress watching a black and white TV and a lot of your viewers don't even know what that is. And so I got knocked in the face really good. But that's when your true colors come through when things don't go so well, what do you do? Do you get back up, do you fight or do you give up? And so I had enough respect then. And I got all kinds of bizarre stories. I was watching candid camera on TV and you know Juliet Funt,

Mike:                       I remember. Yes.

Tom:                         She's from NSA. Well, her dad was Allan Fund from candid, and when I was laying there living off credit cards, busted up and had nowhere to go. I was watching candid camera on this black and white TV and that's when I got the idea for the entertainment company called Prank Masters that I moved to DC and that got worldwide publicity and got me into the speaking business. And then I ran into Juliet. And I'm getting goose pimples again. Ran into the Juliet at NSA and I thought, "Oh my God, I'd never be able to thank her dad." So I mentored her for a while just to the payback for that idea, that little spark that somebody else gave me because I was able to keep my eyes open in the face of adversity. And that's when your true colors show through. And that's sometimes the hardest part.

Mike:                       I love it. And you have two books that you really recommend one is The influence the psychology of persuasion by Robert Cialdini. And then-

Tom:                         It's pronounced Cialdini.

Mike:                       Oh, I've always pronounced that wrong then. So I appreciate that. Yeah. And the other book is Last conscious by Alain Buris.

Tom:                         Yeah. Buris.

Mike:                       Buris there we go thank you.

Tom:                         That's a man by the way, because it's spelled A-L-A-I-N and I thought it was the girl for years until I met him. It's a guy. It's a French spelling, but the influence of psychology persuasion is when we began this conversation with about manipulation and persuasion kind of going hand in hand. One's negative connotation one isn't but that is, I've read that book seven times because that is the way you can really get your products and services out there and get people to buy them. But again, because you know you're going to take care of them and help them.

Tom:                         The other one is completely opposite the other end. You better not be faint at heart if you read it. It's a book about a friend of mine and it's a book about a sniper from the army who decided to go after pedophiles, so it's a whole different thing, but again, it was that pedophile who knows where he came from, but there came a point when you had the draw the line and couldn't let him hurt children anymore. So even though you have to have some respect, some people cross that line and have to be stopped. So it's a completely different ends of the spectrum.

Mike:                       Yeah. And to stop someone from doing harm is not failing to respect to them.

Tom:                         Right.

Mike:                       In fact, you would argue the opposite-

Tom:                         You're respecting everybody else that-

Mike:                       And them by saying you can't do this, this is not acceptable, out of respect I'm going to take action now. Yeah. And so I want to thank you, Tom. This has been. We've gone all over, which I love and explored different areas. So thank you so much for joining us today. And for our listeners who want to make sure they can dive into this conversation so they can go to Facebook, look up The Respect podcast, discussion group and dive into this conversation. So thank you very much Tom for joining us.

Tom:                         My pleasure. Good to see you again.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect podcast, which was sponsored by The Date Safe project @datesafeproject.Org. And remember you can always find me at Mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:33:03]

 

Listen as Neen James shares specific skills for paying attention in our lives and how vital paying attention is to respect. Neen shares with host Mike Domitrz insights and strategies people can use in their personal and professional lives.

Dr. Christopher Kilmartin is an emeritus college professor, author, stand-up comedian, actor, playwright, consultant and professional psychologist. He retired in 2016 as Professor of Psychology at The University of Mary Washington in Fredericksburg, VA. He holds a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Virginia Commonwealth University and is a licensed clinical psychologist who has a great deal of experience consulting with businesses, college students, human services workers, athletic departments, the military, and counselors.  

 

His major scholarly work isThe Masculine Self(5theditionSloan,2015, now co-authored by Andrew Smiler), which has also been translated into Korean. He has also co-authoredMen’s Violence Against Women: Theory, Research, and Activism,Overcoming Masculine Depression:The Pain behind the Mask:(also translated into Hebrew and Korean;2ndedition, 2013), andSexual Assault in Context: Teaching College Men about Gender, a manual based on his consultation experiences. 

 

Drawing on his background as a professional stand-up comedian, Dr. Kilmartin wrote a solo theatre performance on men's issues entitledCrimes Against Nature. This work, an integration of his scholarly and performing interests, and performed by the author, has toured to over 150 campuses and other venues for a total of over 220 performances. He has also toured with a lecture/storytelling/multimedia hybrid entitledGendered Fictions: The Challenge of Cultural Change.

 

Dr. Kilmartin delivered the Keynote address at the NCAA Violence Prevention Summit in 2011 and has alsoconsulted and delivered trainings with the U. S. Department of Education, the U.S. Army, Navy, and Air Force, the U. S. Institute of Peace, and the international group, Democratic Control of the Armed Forces. He served as a consultant for three years with the United States Naval Academy on a revision of sexual assault and harassment prevention curriculum. He was a scriptwriter for an Army training film on the same topic. He taught a full semester course on diversity and inclusion for Air Force officers and has delivered several workshops on the same topic. He is affiliated as a Senior Consultant with Newpoint Strategies, a contractor specializing in sexual assault/harassment prevention, as well as inclusion and diversity.

 

Dr. Kilmartin was the Distinguished Visiting Professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences and Leadership at the United States Air Force Academy for the academic year 2013-14. In 2007, he was the Fulbright Distinguished Chair in Gender Studies at the University of Klagenfurt, Austria, one of only 39 such honors awarded annually worldwide. He was elected to Fellow Status in the American Psychological Association in 2008 and is a Past President of Division 51 of that organization, the Society for the Psychological Study of Men and Masculinity, which awarded him its Researcher of the Year distinction in 2010. In 2015, the University of Mary Washington granted him its Professional Achievement Award. He has been a featured presenter at the National Psychotherapy with Men Conferences. Dr. Kilmartin is an internationally-recognized expert on gender, violence preventio

 

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I am your host Mike [Donashrum 00:00:04] from Mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started.

Mike:                       I'm very excited to have someone on today. Someone that I've know for a while in the work that we do and that is Dr. Chris Kilmartin. Chris is an emeritus college professor, consultant, performer and trainer. He is the author of four books on men and masculinity and has been doing violence prevention work for more than 25 years. So Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

Chris:                       My pleasure. Now, what kinds of works have you done when it comes to gender education generally and violence prevention specifically?

Mike:                       I do a lot of ... my major scholarly area is on men and masculinity. So I help men to understand the social pressure to behave and experience themselves in line with what the culture says they should be for the body they're perceived as having. And help them understand this cultural pressure to do that. But your reactions to that cultural pressure are widely variable. So my mantra of late is, it's very difficult to resist a pressure that you cannot name. So what I'd like to help men do is name that pressure of masculinity and then we put them into a position to resist that pressure when conforming to it, hurt somebody or it conflicts with important life goal or value.

Mike:                       So that's just the basic gender education kind of stuff I've been doing. I've been teaching an academic course in men and masculinity for more than 20 years and been doing a lot of guest speaking on campuses and military and companies. Specifically with violence prevention I've done a variety of things. All are around prevention, that's my expertise. I'm not [inaudible 00:02:08] I know a little bit about a lot of things but I'm not an expert in victim services and things like that. I'm much more of an expert in trying to cause something not to happen in the first place.

Mike:                       And that is around leadership skills for setting the right tone in your organization to make sexual assault and harassment less likely and also bystander intervention. Getting people to step up when they hear dangerous attitudes or view problematic kinds of situations and help them learn what they can do and how they can help to prevent the problem.

Chris:                       Now Chris this is the respect podcast. So let's dive right into this element. Let's go back to men and their roles. Because a lot of that has to do with respect and we create this image that men are supposed to be. This stereotype that men are supposed to be and they're not able to be themselves. They're not able to explore full emotions. They're not able to explore their full creativity or whatever it may be. Therefore there's a lack of respecting the human being, the human content that it can really be because it's supposed to fit into this box.

Chris:                       And when we do that we disrespect the individual. Would you agree that's part of that work?

Mike:                       I would absolutely agree that's part of that work and a big part of it is to help and understand that a lot of what they're being asked to do is about a performance. It's not so much about who they actually are but how they're socialized to perform and that other men are performing as well. But we don't see them as performing so much as we think that's who this person actually is and my own research is that when men are in stereotypical all male groups and they're calling women by animal names or the names of their genitals or making derogatory jokes. Most men don't like that.

Mike:                       But the problem is they overestimate how much other men do like it. So it's like laughing at a joke that you don't think is funny. If I watched you laugh at that joke I would think you thought that was funny unless you let me in on your private reaction. Which, as we know, most men are not exactly famous for doing. And so we can ... once we can kind of widen out and I can absolutely agree with you if we can respect the person inside the man and not expect him to be this machine then lots of things become possible and lots of people are doing that kind of work.

Chris:                       And why men? Some people may be listening going, why men? They're the ones with the privilege. They have it so much easier. Why focus on men?

Mike:                       I don't think you necessarily have to focus on men. That's just where my work is focused but I think that if we as a group have obviously greater levels of privilege and power than women as a group. Although they're great individual variation among men and among women, then we can make a difference. But there lots, majority of men are really good people but they've been under involved in this work. So if we can mobilize, if we can amplify he healthy voices then we have a role to play.

Mike:                       And I think that anytime that the group that's in privilege has sometimes a different kind of role to play. We need men to step up and fight sexism just as we need heterosexual people to fight homophobia. We need rich people to work against economic inequality. We need cisgendered people to work against transphobia. There are people in the majority population have to be for us to all solve these problems we have to be good allies to people in the more marginalized populations.

Chris:                       Absolutely. And you brought up a good point earlier about men are not allowed to show these vulnerabilities. These honest moments. These expressions and there is a difference gender wise of what is acceptable at least in Westernized culture of the world. Women, it would not be uncommon for a group of women to joke around about breast size. That would not be a surprise.

Mike:                       Sure.

Chris:                       But you would almost never hear a group of men have any kind of conversation about penis size of themselves. [crosstalk 00:06:55] Unless it's a bragging of whose the largest. But there's not going to be this honest conversation but you may find that amongst those who identify as women. You may find that more likely to happen. Is that the kind of be willing to be honest and open that we're talking about or is that farther down the road? Are there some opening steps first before somebody can feel that kind of vulnerability on the human body, which men never talk about on a vulnerable level typically as a society, I don't mean individual men.

Chris:                       But as a society we don't talk about from a place of vulnerability.

Mike:                       Yeah and I think we can make spaces and there are people who do make spaces for men to explore the depth of their feelings about themselves. One of the things ... Now I've lost my train of thought, sorry. That I've seen a lot lately are these assumptions that men are simple or that men, especially when the Me Too movement started to take off, I saw these people on social media saying things like, "Men suck." Which is shorthand for, men lack morality.

Mike:                       And so if we embrace the sense of ourselves as being simple and lacking morality then we are incapable of that kind of work but most men are good people who are complex and so the other part about men suck or men are simple is it lets us off the hook because if we're simple or we're immoral and we're immoral then whose job is it to make the world a better place. We're leaving it up to women as if they don't have enough to do already.

Mike:                       So we need to redefine men as being complex. As being fair minded and caring and explode this myth of men are simple and immoral.

Chris:                       And we as men then have to uphold those value, right? That if we're going to say we're complex, we need to show complexity.

Mike:                       Yeah.

Chris:                       To display complexity. If we're going to say we're caring then we need to show caring. That becomes critical to this for the general society of belief. Those who have been taught men are bad. For them to believe anything else they have to see something else. When we're hearing men are bad or men are cruel, it's because somebody caused that pain to that person and often way more than one.

Chris:                       So there's a track record of men being bad in that person's life. And what we have to understand as men is don't take it personal when Person A over here says, "All men are bad." What you should step back and go, "Wow, the amount of men that must have created that impact and how sad that is that so many of my gender could cause that." And that's what we should recognize. Not, "How dare they blast me in with everyone."

Chris:                       Which is I think the most offensive reaction and we've seen it a lot in the Me Too movement. Now, I'm looped in with everybody else. Now, we're all rapist and that's not what people are saying.

Mike:                       Right, and I absolutely agree that defensive reaction is quite common and part of just the way that we think culturally about men and women. I mean we have this term, "the opposite sex." Men and women are not opposite. Or the battle of the sexes. Where 90% of the combatants are allegedly in love with and having children with the enemy. And so when we hold these kind of adversarial beliefs about men and women and somebody says that men are bad. Then we think we gotta defend ourselves and a lot of people believe that as women gain power that women will lose it and it's just not true. Power is not a zero sum game. We can enhance each other's power.

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Mike:                       Power is not a zero sum game. We can enhance each other's power. So once we start to see men and women on the same team, and we understand how much pain many men have caused to women, and other men for that matter. Then we can start to understand, I mean I don't like male bashing anymore than anybody else, but I sure as hell understand where it comes from. And so, if you don't like it, really I think the most enlightened response is to do what you can to stop it.

Chris:                       Yes definitely, and in the Me Too movement, since we've brought it up. How do you think that is impacting this kind of work, this kind of enlightening, and just our society as a whole?

Mike:                       I think it has certainly I think increased the credibility of women and men, who have come forward and have said that, "People have mistreated me sexually." Either harassment or assault. It has I think, increased the empathy of some men, not all men, for women. 'Cause I think that part of what we see around sexual assault and harassment is rampant kind of victim blaming. That these were women who behaved badly, and they kind of got what they deserved. And that these are bad women who have been victimized, and the good women that I know, the women I know and love. Well once the Me Too movement started, if you were paying any attention at all, you'd be like, "Wow, all of these women I know! All these women, these friends of mine, these people I love. These family members have been victimized."

Mike:                       Then that breaks down that kind of sense of victim blaming, and I think increases empathy, because I think if you think in a victim blaming kind of way, there are victims like them, and victims like us. And victims like us are for instance, victims of random violence. I could have been in Parkland High School, I could have been in the Twin Towers, I could have been at Virginia Tech. We can't distance ourselves psychologically from those kinds of victims. But what we can with victims of inter personal violence to say, "Well I wouldn't have been stupid enough to be married to that person." Or, "Get that drunk." Or, "Have that poor judgment." And I think we have to move to a place where we understand that all victims are victims like us, and so I think the Me Too movement have been really good for building empathy in not all men, but some men. And an understanding of how rampant this problem is.

Chris:                       Well yeah, and you bring up an important part, which is we try to say, "well that's them, not me." Right? "I wouldn't have been there." And a reason a lot of people do that for our listeners to understand is, self defense.

Mike:                       Yes.

Chris:                       If I believe I wouldn't be there, I can feel safer in my day to day life, 'cause I don't have to fear this crime happening to me. If I think that could have been me, now I might live in fear. And I don't wanna live in fear, so it's easier to blame the other person and say, "They did something I would not do. Therefor I do not need to worry about this." This is shown in research in jury's when they look at sexual assault, and jurors don't convict the rapist in what appears to be a blatantly obvious case, because the juror's subconsciously want to believe, "Well, I've been in that same kind of situation, and so I don't wanna believe that could happen to me. So subconsciously I'll say, they must have done something different than I would have done. Therefor, I'm safe."

Mike:                       Right, and I think that's absolutely right. It's a security operation. So, I'm gonna find one thing that, that person did, and attribute it. Attribute the attack to that, and then if I avoid that. And victims do this to themselves, right? If I don't do that again. Right? I always tell people, "Don't bother blaming the victim, they're usually experts at it. They don't need any help from you." But, the other thing that you hear is, "If I had been there, here's what I would have done." And I saw this on social media around sexual harassment. Women saying, "I've never been harassed at work, because the men I work with know if they had done that, I would have slapped their face."

Mike:                       And well this is known as a post diction. It's the opposite of a pre diction. It's after the fact, saying what you would have done. We have tons of research over years in psychology. Post diction's are notoriously unreliable. You don't know what you would have done, because you cannot experience the kind of social pressure of the moment that would have happened. You can imagine what it would have been like, but you have the luxury of hindsight, and taking apart a situation, and forming a strategy that a person in the moment doesn't have. And so, the other layer of victim blaming is this post diction, this belief that I would have acted differently. When you actually have no way of knowing how you would have acted.

Chris:                       And I think that's brilliant, because we all do that, regardless of the topic. What I mean by that is if, you say to somebody, "If somebody said something highly inappropriate in front of you, would you say something?" 90% maybe 80% of people go, "Oh yeah, I'd say something." And then you have been with that person when somebody in the group has said something highly inappropriate, and they didn't say anything. So it's easier to preach our values on roles and our strong character, than it is to exercise it %100 of the time the way we'd like to. We're human, no one is gonna always speak up. Is going to always do the right thing in a tough situation. No one. So I think it's so brilliant that you bring up that post diction, because we live that on our daily basis, many of us. I mean all people do to some degree.

Mike:                       Yeah, absolutely. And we know that we can help people to be prepared for situation, like that, by practicing them as well. So, how many times have somebody said something that bothered you and you think, "Well this would have been a good thing to say." You think about that about two days later. And what I always tell people to do, is to put it in your pocket. Because you might be able to use it later on, but the other thing, this is a really simple technique that you can learn. When you hear somebody say something inappropriate and you can't muster an articulate response, just ask the person to repeat it, "I'm sorry, what did you say?"

Mike:                       And then the person's, often people will say these kinds of things without really thinking, just off the cuff. And when you ask them to repeat it, then they have to repeat it very consciously, and they may feel uncomfortable repeating it, in which case you've educated them to how their behavior was inappropriate. They may say it again, who knows. But at least you're making them make a really conscious decision to say or do what they said.

Chris:                       When I love that, the tone you just did that with, that you taught us to do that with, was brilliant. Because you didn't do a tone of, "Oh, I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you." It was, "Excuse me, what did you say?" That right away tells someone, "Uh-oh. They're surprised I made that statement." Right? And so, it does send a red flag out. Like, "Did you just say what I think you said? 'Cause I'm surprised." What you're suddenly doing there is, "I'm surprised you would say that." Which is actually ... And this is what I teach people too.

Chris:                       Say to people, "Wow, I don't think you meant what you just said, 'cause I know you. This doesn't reflect how I know you to be." And I know some people don't have those words sometimes, which is why you teach it that way. Which is when I don't have the words. I love it. Now speaking of fears and reacting to fears, a common one nowadays is this fear that, "I'll be falsely reported." That because of what's happening in the world, I'm walking around, and I'm afraid someone's gonna false report me. How do you help people understand the fear of false reports?

Mike:                       Yes, and thank you so much for using the word "report" instead of accusation, or allegation. I think that we get in trouble when we start to use these legalistic words, and often when I hear the word "allegation" I think, "Oh, a person's lying." Report is a much more neutral term. It's a much less judgemental term, so I think that we need to use that language. Well, the reality is that sometimes people do lie. I mean, but people overestimate how often that happens. And so, the myth of false reporting, a myth does not have to be completely untrue for it to be a myth. The importance of a myth is how it operates.

Mike:                       And how the myth of false reporting operates, is to make the disbelief of the person reporting, the default option, right? We're gonna make the assumption, and many law enforcement people do this, until they've been trained out of it. They make the assumption that the person is lying, because the story doesn't add up. Well if I'm gonna lie, I'd make a really good story. If I were gonna lie about a sexual - ... Say, "Well we got drunk, and we were kissing consensually." And make it sound like the kind of situation where it's hard to believe. Why wouldn't I say the person held a gun to my head, and why wouldn't I make it be the kind of-

Chris:                       Salaciousness almost-

Mike:                       Salacious, yeah. The kind of egregious rape story that people tend to believe. So, their estimates are between two and eight percent. I certainly believe they're closer to two percent. And then if you look at-

Chris:                       Well let's pause there. I think that, that's so important. 'Cause that's the numbers that I share too. That's two to eight percent of reporting-

Mike:                       Of reporting.

Chris:                       This is key here, because only a third to tenth that report it. So if you do two to eight percent of what is actually a third to a-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Chris:                       ... though few do 2-8% of what is actually a third to a tenth. You're actually talking about .3 of a percent to about 3% at the high end of cases. And what I think is important for people to realize there is understanding that we're talking about 97% of the time. That means that survivors speaking total truth 97% of the time, so why are you focusing on the 3? Why? 'Cause TV and the media, when they get that 3% runs with it. And everybody goes, "Proof I don't need to worry about the topic." Isn't that really what's caused this myth?

Mike:                       Yeah, I think so. And yeah, I mean my estimation, and it's just an estimation, is that for every false report of a sexual, there are about 475 unreported assaults, so you tell me which is the bigger problem. And if you're focused on these rare false reports ... And we have to acknowledge it would be a horrible thing for somebody to say that you did something, a felony, that-

Chris:                       Yeah and a false report is horrible for everyone. It's horrible for survivors, yeah.

Mike:                       Yeah, but the fact that you're focusing on that tells me who you are identifying with. You're identifying with the person being reported rather than the victim. We have a huge problem with unreported rapes, because we don't ... we're doing better with this, but we're not very good at supporting victims who come forward and making them feel safe to report. We're doing better. And so-

Chris:                       Right. What is the key steps we can do to help people recognize sexism and to speak out? So what are some steps you give groups you work with about, "Hey. Here's how to notice. Here's how to catch. Here's the action step to take,"?

Mike:                       Right. Well, one of the things is to help them understand that if you're bothered by sexism, you're not alone, and this is especially true with men. Men are often comparing their inner experience with other men's performances. As I said, when somebody says something sexist, most men are bothered by that, but they think they're alone in that. I show them age old social-psychological research on conforming and once you perceive an ally and you talk with other men, "Does this bother you? It bothers me," then you start to feel supported coming forward. So there's the noticing the event, this is the classic social-psychological intervention steps: Notice the event, define it as a problem, take responsibility for doing something about the problem, decide what you're going to do and do it. If you're an EMT and you see somebody clutch their heart and fall to the ground, you go through those five steps in about a half a second because you've been trained to do it and you've thought about it. So we help people understand sexism and how sexism harms everybody, not just women. Then we mobilize the good guys and we amplify their voices, so that's the attitudinal part of course and then there is the skill part.

Mike:                       Which it's interesting too, part of the research that we did is we brought men into our lab and we showed them statements, we say, "You're in a situation where another man says this sexist thing and you're offended," and we didn't say, "If you're offended," we say, "And you're offended. So what we want you to do is construct a challenge to that," and so we give them practice at it and then we had them write a letter to a man. So part of what we know, we look to our attitudes to shape our behavior, but what is less obvious is that we look to our behavior to shape our attitudes. So if we can get people to behave in the direction of the attitude, that's going to increase the attitude. So for instance, men who were asked to role play being an advocate for a woman bringing a sexual harassment complaint in a company, become more sympathetic to the problem of sexual harassment. So we're working both sides of the street, we're inside out, attitude to behavior, but also outside in, behavior to attitude.

Chris:                       I love this idea for everyone to think ... If I were to sit down, "What are situations that I've been in that made me uncomfortable," and then to write out what are possible responses I could've, precise language that I could've used in that moment, so like you said earlier, I've got it in my pocket. I think that's so usable, it's so implementable, we can all do that. And Chris, you have three books you really recommend, I always ask everyone on the show to give me books that they recommend, you had three you shared with me. And that was: 'Our Guys' By: Bernard Lefkowitz, and then 'The Trouble with Testosterone' By: Robert Sapolsky, and then Sandra Bem's, 'The Lenses of Gender'. Why those three?

Mike:                       Well, I think that we need to have gendered and social context for this problem. So Sandra Bem's 'Lenses of Gender' is just ... She doesn't talk about violence at all, that I can remember, in that book, but it's a formidable intellectual piece of work that changed the way I think about gender and how we grow up with it and how we can learn to be conscious of it. It's a great book for that regard. Sapolsky's book, actually, the title of the book, it's a collection of essays. Sapolsky is world's foremost endocrinologist, he's an amazing biologist, and so often people biologize male aggression and gender and testosterone is usually the culprit-

Mike:                       ... an issue with that because I've got plenty of testosterone and so do you and so do most every man we know and vast majority of us are not violent, so it's not a straightforward kinda pathway. Sapolsky is brilliant, and by the way, this is a collection of essays on various biological topics, so we're talking about 'The Trouble with Testosterone' is only like a four page thing, that's one of the essays. But he liked it well-enough that he decided to name the book after it. And he explains the biology of it and what Sapolsky is really good at is to take complex science and explain it to people who don't necessarily have a really good science background without dumbing it down, so that's a brilliant essay.

Mike:                       'Our Guys' is about the gang rape of a developmentally disabled girl in a privileged community in New Jersey and I think the power of that book is that Lefkowitz talks about these boys who did this horrible thing, but also looks at how a community enabled them, and I think that's brilliant.

Mike:                       And also, by the way, speaking of Sapolsky, if you're interested in the biology things, I highly recommend Frans de Waal's book, he's our world's foremost primatologist. And one of the things you hear in the culture often is this alpha male language, well, de Waal explains that the stereotype of the alpha male is a bully, there's somebody who gets what he wants through intimidation, violence, threat of violence and there are primates who do that. But the most successful primates are actually what he calls 'populists', that they aid in food sharing in the group, they break up fights, they're loved, they're leaders. And so we think of that this is the only way for men to gain power, well, the bullies in primate troupes, they don't last very long because other animals form coalitions and overthrow them. And so he helps us understand through our closest animal relatives, what is true about human nature and what is not.

Chris:                       Well, I think the irony of talking about the animal world, and the dogs are speaking out there at the same time at your house.

Mike:                       They're [crosstalk 00:30:58].

Chris:                       Yeah, so that's ironic. But it sounds like brilliant, so we'll have the links to all those for listeners right now, you'll find those in the show notes, either iTunes or on our website. You'll also be able to find Chris at chriskilmartin.com. Kilmartin is K-I-L-M-A-R-T-I-N, just like it sounds, and Chris is C-H-R-I-S. Chriskilmartin.com, all will be on our website, at respectpodcast.com.

Chris:                       And for our listeners right now, remember you can go on Facebook and we have a discussion group, you can join other people, share with other people, talk about everything Chris has said. Because Chris, this has been brilliant. Now, that Facebook group is called 'The Respect Podcast Discussion Group', super easy, and that's how you find it on Facebook.

Chris:                       Chris, thank you so much for joining us today.

Mike:                       It was my pleasure, Mike, anytime.

Chris:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by The DATE SAFE Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:32:00]

Does RESPECT exist in today’s marking and advertising world? Listen as world-leading branding expert and author, Bruce Turkel, discusses with host Mike Domitrz how respect plays a role in the media and advertising world today.

Kirsty is one of the most sought after inspirational speakers, most often booked to open or close a conference. She is known for her ability to shift the tone of an event, to help the audience connect with themselves— and others in a deeper, more meaningful way and to help clients foster a culture of vulnerability throughout their event and beyond.

 

She does this by modeling her own beautiful, heart-opening vulnerability.

 

Her ability to share moving, thought provoking and emotional topics with compassion, strength, and her signature Australian humor, helps the audience become comfortable with going, just a little deeper.

 

She is a truth teller, connector and a powerful storyteller with the rare ability to both inspire audiences and leave them with actionable strategies that have life changing results.

 

Kirsty’s courageous story has touched diverse audiences all over the world, including employees from Fortune 500 Companies & global brands. She is trusted by her clients to design and deliver interactive keynotes that inspire change, challenge thinking and accelerate personal and professional growth.

 

Kirsty’s own journey began as a truth seeker herself, looking for her freedom... she found it when, after almost 2 decades of living with a secret, she bravely shared her TRUTH with the world in a first of it’s kind TEDx talk titled ‘You’re Only as Sick as Your Secrets’. In speaking her truth, she released a ripple of healing into the world.

 

@KirstyTV on insta, youtube and FB.

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to The Respect podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the U.S. military create a culture of respect and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike:                       Welcome to this episode of The Respect podcast, today we've got Kirsty Spraggon here, I want to let you know all about her. She is about ...she's been interviewing truth tellers for the past ten years and working on her documentary, The Truth Teller Project, has given Kirsty a unique perspective on truth. Her episodes have been seen my two million people in 120 countries, capturing emotionally raw and powerful stories from those who've endured some of the worst kinds of sexual abuse, risen up from trauma, overcome addiction and moved forward from shame and stigma. Thank you Kirsty so much for joining us.

Kirsty:                     Of course. Happy to be here.

Mike:                       Well we're thrilled to have you here. How do you feel that respect plays a part in the work you do as a truth teller?

Kirsty:                     Oh I mean, to me respect starts with self-respect, I think self leadership, self love, self respect, whichever word you want to use, it's like if you don't respect yourself ... this week we've been doing a class with people that's been going pretty deep and the amount of people who have self loathing, you know, that internal voice and criticism. You know next to me, that's disrespectful and harmful emotionally to ourselves to have that kind of thing going on. And then obviously I feel like in the bigger conversation of the work I do with interviews, it's respectful to our community, and to family members, to become truth tellers because when we hide who we are, we play a role in being part of the reason that things like mental health have a stigma. The reason that people don't share when they've been through a trauma. You become part of the problem when you don't open up and share.

Mike:                       So let's dive into that, truth teller, a lot of people who haven't heard that term before, may not be fully comprehend what you're referencing. So what does it mean to be a truth teller?

Kirsty:                     For me, it's just sharing your truths and there's big and small truths, you know there's big truths in terms of what we may have been through, abuse, addiction, depression. And then there's also small daily truths of "I'm just not enjoying this conversation right now." And standing up for what we believe in and sharing when we're uncomfortable in the moment. Or I'm not doing the work that I want to do in the world or I'm not happy in my relationship. So I think there's big and small truths down to the kind of [inaudible 00:02:54], individual conversations that we're in all day, every day. Do we share the truth? Are we coming from a place of authenticity? Are we feeling like we're being fully seen, that we can show up with all of who we are. Or is the culture that we're in making us feel like we have to hide some of that or is it our mindset and the self loathing and the tapes that we have playing in our head that are making us feel like we can't tell our truth.

Mike:                       So there's a lot of unpack there. You had mentioned whether you're having a conversation with someone, and you don't like where the conversation's going, will you say that? So are you recommending that if somebody is having a conversation with somebody, they don't like where it's going, they just go, "Hey, I don't like where this conversation is going."?

Kirsty:                     Yeah, I mean look, I was just watching a really great video around the Me Too movement with six men, I think it was ... the guy who manages Justin Bieber and some very high profile people, [inaudible 00:03:56], so these gentlemen were talking about how the Me Too movement is impacting them, how the conversation they're having and one of the interesting things they said is that every single one of them at some point, had been complicit in being around someone who has sexually harassed a woman. And when they were in college, they didn't have the courage ... or when they had, some of them had actually said something, so you know that's not cool and then they felt like they were then made fun of or isolated from the group and so again it comes back to when you have respect for yourself, you're okay with maybe this isn't my clique.

Kirsty:                     Maybe this isn't where I don't want to sell out my soul to do something that goes against my core values. And so I think that when we have that respect for ourself and we build our strengths, to tell our truth, then we become comfortable in all those situations. So yeah, totally I think that you've gotta build that muscle, it doesn't come easily and it's harder when you're younger to have that courage but yeah, you have to get to a point where you can just say in a conversation, or pull someone aside and say, "You know, I don't know where that behavior came from or what was going on but that really upset me, it's not something that I wanna be around or want to have a friend of mine engaging in."

Kirsty:                     Because otherwise, as the men said in this interview, really you're just as complicit as the perpetrator because they don't get to continue that behavior without everyone else giving them permission to.

Mike:                       Well I love that discussion, it's something that we talk to audiences about all over the world about how to intervene in those moments. How do you help people gain the skills and the confidence to be able to speak up for themselves, for others?

Kirsty:                     You know I think it's a journey, I think for me you know it certainly was, it's taken 20 years, I don't think it's something that any of us ... and I don't think you ever get there, I think it's a continual work in progress and the more I told my big truths, the more I found myself telling all those little truths. And so for me, it was kind of like one followed the other 'cause when you hide all the big stuff, then you're hiding all the little stuff and it's all compounded in shame and secretism and isolation and not wanting to be seen or found out or if anyone gets too close to you, so you know it shuts down vulnerability, we put up walls emotionally. We don't have as many friends, we maybe avoid people because when you have all that sort of big things going on that you're not telling anyone, it takes a lot of energy to ... it's like keeping a lid on a boiling pot of water so all your energy goes towards that.

Kirsty:                     I think once you get to a place where you can share some of those bigger truths, then you're more comfortable and confident with being able to have authentic conversations in your daily life. And it becomes a practice but in terms of how do we get to sharing those bigger truths first, you know that's working through the shame and the stigma. whether it's someone that's have an STD or they've been through sexual abuse or rape, or that they have addiction issues, you know it's finding support groups, finding safe places, journaling, gratitude lifts and starting to really do this inner work. You know I think that we value going to work and being at work so much and we do 50 to 70 hours a week some people and have no holidays and no time off and but yet when do we do this inner work? Deep inner work, we're not just talking about somebody who has something small going on, we're talking about those kinds of traumas, shame, stigmas, things that ... they're carrying a secret that has self loathing going on or they have depression or anxiety on a daily basis.

Kirsty:                     When you have that sort of thing going on, it requires deep inner work and it may take you know a few hours every day or all weekend, and cause there will be times when you're just processing and you need down time or you need to go to therapy. Then you need that process and unpack all the comes up from that, you need to just go to the beach and be gentle with yourself and give you time to feel all the new things that are coming up and process through it.

Mike:                       And so you bring up something very good, you said our big truths, but that's always interesting because one person's big truth, to somebody else could feel like a small truth. It really depends on your view, but if it's big to you, it's big. That's all that matters and you speak about your big truths. So let's go back a little bit, where did this journey around truth and shame begin for you?

Kirsty:                     So for me, I had gotten herpes, a sexually transmitted disease in my early, sort of 19-20 and you know again, this plenty of people who are like, "Oh, it's like a pimple, what's the big deal?" So for them it isn't a secret and doesn't hold any shame. But in 2018, I still get weekly calls from people who are depressed and suicidal who are newly diagnosed. So there's still a massive amount of stigma around having an STD. And so everyone with whatever secret they have, it's not just the secret, it's all the way that it impacts your life. So having an STD means that you now have to have that conversation with someone that you just met and you're dating. So it takes away a piece of your freedom. So there's all these different pieces whether you've been through a miscarriage or abortion or a rape. And there's things within each of those that only someone who's ever been through it, really get that kind of ricochet and ripple effect of how it impacts them in terms of shame and sometimes it can be really insidious.

Kirsty:                     Like you don't even realize that this could impact you in so many ways and you're sort of in a shame vortex. But that takes work and time, like you usually you recognize it when you start isolating or numbing, using something to cope, whether is a couple glasses of wine, or drugs, you start engaging in behavior that isn't really loving to yourself and you feel a little bit out of control.

Kirsty:                     They're all signals for people to kind of go, "Oh wow, something is not working in my life here, I'm avoiding feelings, this is too painful, too uncomfortable to wanna sit in."

Mike:                       And so in that journey for you, what you recognized that, how did you get to that place of recognizing for you that, I am not in a place that I want to be. I need to take a step forward here, to get into the place where you did a TED talks on this specific topic that you thought you felt shame around. You did not want it to come out of the dark. How did you go to that place of now doing a TED talk where millions of people are going to see you sharing that story and for you, what was a big truth?

Kirsty:                     I think that you have to get to a place where the pain is worse than the fear, so I was miserable, I wasn't happy, I was isolating, I was numbing, I was engaging in behaviors that weren't really healthy or loving to myself. And I think that being a speaker and being in this world and growing up in sales, I'd listened to [inaudible 00:10:47] since I was 13 years old on the old cassette tapes so it okay. So I think I had this seed planted around dreaming big in the work space that you could dream big, that you could do anything that built my resilience and my confidence and I think that was for me, was important in a way that I didn't even know until much later. But it was always there, building and so for a while, I kept those things separate, you know success was camouflaging my unworthiness, I stayed so busy that I didn't have time, I was so distracted, busyness is another way to numb, over exercising, over working.

Kirsty:                     When we don't have any space or capacity when we're not meditating or sitting in [inaudible 00:11:28]. So then we don't have to hear our own voice and all of the misery. So for me, it was a long journey and it just happened that you know I was curious, I [inaudible 00:11:39] I was a truth seeker, I knew I was uncomfortable, I knew I was unhappy but I didn't really know what to do. But I would seek, I would seek out mentors, I would seek out courses, I was a conference junkie, I would seek out books. I was reading other peoples stories and I started the show and I was interviewing people but I wasn't telling my truth at that point and so then all of these things over the years, all these different modalities from [inaudible 00:12:03] to-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:12:04]

Kirsty:                     Over the years, always different modalities from EFT to therapy, all played a role in me building up my tools, my backpack, so that when I got to the place where I felt ready, and even on the day when I decided to share in the TEDx talk I wanted to vomit all day long. I was so nauseous and so ill for hours, so it doesn't mean that the fear ever fully goes away, you just get to a place where you're willing to hold its hand and take a leap any way.

Mike:                       Before we dive into the TED talk and you having that moment on stage and revealing on stage, do you think there's a way, 'cause for your journey and many people that I meet around the world, for many of us, I think what you said was brilliant, that the pain has to outweigh the fear. That makes us make the step forward 'cause we don't want the pain anymore.

Mike:                       Is there a way for people to have this journey without having to get to that place? To that place of so hurt, so dark, that I've got to do something or else?

Kirsty:                     I'm going through a new journey right now and I'm in the process of healing that and figuring out what it all means, and I certainly am much more confident. It doesn't mean that you don't have the emotional pain when you have to sit with the memories, the trauma, when stuff is coming up for you. It doesn't mean that the pain disappears entirely, but I don't have the pain and the fear around sharing, around doing the work, around sitting in it all. Like I know that there's a process, I know that you have to kind of go through the fire to get to the other side, I know that it's going to feel worse before it feels better.

Kirsty:                     So you also build, and I think that this is the same with any skill in life, any entrepreneurial journey, you build like a frame of reference for success when you go through something. So having that early journey around shame taught me what the process looked like and that there was an end result, that yes it's going to be painful, yes it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'm going to be okay. Most of these voices are just in my head, most of the worries don't ever happen. And the same with business. You know there's this frame of reference, so whether you go skydiving, no matter what you do, you've got all this frame of reference for, I did this, this happened, this worked out and now I'm at the other side.

Kirsty:                     So for me, healing's kind of the same. I don't think anyone needs to wait until they get to that rock bottom. For some of us that dark night of the soul is part of the journey, but I think at any point you can choose to go, "Okay, how do I find resources, podcasts like this and mentors and courses and figure out how maybe somebody else has already gone through this." For me that's one of the reasons that I speak so much through other peoples stories and books, and in the interviews that I do, because then you're hearing from someone who's gone before you and you get to hear what helped them the most and how they got through it. So it gives you hope and wisdom. I think you always have to learn some of your own lessons, but it certainly helps to hear them from someone who's gone before you.

Mike:                       Yeah, when we created 'The Voices of Courage' E-Book, audio book and book, it's a book of survivors sharing their stories, and it's amazing how many people really find it powerful because through those other voices, through those 10 women and two men, they can see traces of themselves and in having that experience they also get to see these 12 people are living their lives. They're living and they're thriving and they can then see, because I relate to their journey, I can get there too. There is a path for me too.

Mike:                       So I think what you bring up there is so brilliant about finding others who've gone through this experience because the reality is, there are always people who have gone through what you've gone through. It may not be the exact same situation, but the same emotional pain on some level has been felt by other people before. Most of our pains are not truly unique. Research shows that, that we are not unique. The mistake is thinking that my pain is different than other peoples pain. That is what can cause you to stay in the dark versus recognizing, oh, I am having pain here that someone else has had too. Where are they? Where can I find them? Which is what you're referencing there, and I think that's so powerful for people to get.

Mike:                       The earlier you can do that, you may never have to get to that dark place, right? Because if you start to go, "I'm starting to feel pain or numbing about this topic, who else has gone through this?" You might be able to kick me out of that before I ever go to that dark place. So I think for people [inaudible 00:16:48] the same, the earlier you can seek and the earlier you can share, the more freedom you get quicker.

Kirsty:                     Exactly.

Mike:                       Now you shared on a massive level. You shared on a TED talk, where for some people it might be share with your best friend, start there.

Kirsty:                     Right, someone you trust, someone you feel safe with.

Mike:                       Share with someone you trust, exactly. Maybe it's a therapist, maybe it's a counselor, but someone you feel safe with.

Kirsty:                     Yeah, people often ask me how do I know? You're going to get it wrong. When you're younger obviously we're not as discerning and we're maybe not as tuned into our intuition, but certainly look for red flags. If you're going to tell someone, think about how do they talk and engage with you? Do they typically engage in gossip? Have they told you private information about other friends? Look at the person you're going to share this with so that you can do as much as possible to find a safe space.

Mike:                       I love that advice about looking ...

Kirsty:                     And that they're open minded.

Mike:                       Yeah, that's brilliant. Look at the track record of the person.

Kirsty:                     And if you maybe shared something else with them and just see how they respond. It doesn't even have to be about you, but just talk about something that's going on in the news and see how they respond. If they're critical of similar things, then they may not be a healthy place for you to share either. If you're not going to get something positive from them or they're going to be judgemental, you've got to make sure that you look at why you're telling this person and are they a safe place and are they going to be able to provide some comfort or insight.

Mike:                       I love that. So now that you're at the TED talk, you're about to share publicly this truth for you that could be painful, that there's been shame around for years, but now you're ready to talk. So a couple of questions. 1. What was that like to share on such a massive level? Now in the room there, there's a few 100. There's not a million people live, but there's a few 100 and that's pressure, but then you know it's going to be out to the world, so what was it like to do that? What was the response and what a journey has that taken you on since?

Kirsty:                     Okay, a lot of questions there. What was it like? I'll start with that. It was hard. As you said, even on that day I still wasn't ready and it was challenging because I had so much anxiety and nausea that I couldn't tell, am I supposed to do this or is the fact that I'm having this response telling me that I shouldn't be? Am I going to make the biggest mistake of my life? What is this going to do for my career? I'm this motivational speaker in corporate world and here I am doing a TEDx talk on herpes and what if someone finds it online, it's out there forever. All those things were going through my head.

Kirsty:                     But there was this deep inner knowing that it was time. It was time to set myself free, it was time to share my truth, it was time to stop feeling like a fraud, I just knew on some level that this was what was going to lead to my freedom. And I had enough experience and frame of reference with other experiences that when I listened to myself and my inner knowing and my guidance system, that I had always ended up better off that I had always ... it had led to success in some way, shape or form.

Kirsty:                     So I knew that I had a feeling that everything was going to work out even though I had all those fear voices and tapes playing, I was able to be rational around them and ignore them and push through. Once I got the words out, like maybe a minute in or something to the talk, I felt like just a weight had lifted. It was like, "Ah, it's done now, I can just talk." And I don't think I realized, in my head at the time I thought that the fact that I could do the TEDx talk was like, "I'm done, I'm healed, I'm at this place finally." I felt like the work was done and I didn't realize that it was only just beginning. That sharing the truth was like opening up this huge part of my heart and vulnerability in myself that I didn't know and that there was going to be a freedom ... it just shifted so many things.

Kirsty:                     It was like when the real work began. Okay, now you've gotta look at ... now you've shifted the secret or the thing that you hold shame around, but what about the 20 years of damage done in terms of the way you think and behave and show up in relationships and intimacy and all the other things, the tape that you've been running. So then you have to start doing the work to repair all of that and pull off each of those pieces individually and take a look at them and work through them.

Mike:                       What I love about that is the fact that it reminds us all that if you're going to transform that doesn't mean you go back to how you were yesterday. Transformation means I'm different then I ever was before and I'm not the person I was before. I'm a different human being now. So with that awakening, I now feel everything, I now know who my true self is so I can notice I don't want to be the past 20 years, which means I have work every day. I don't just have work for the next week, I don't just have work for the next few months, I have work every day of my life for the rest of my life to be that pure truest self I want to be. That's what you're referencing?

Kirsty:                     Yes exactly.

Mike:                       So how did people react to that? What did you hear as you gave this sharing experience through the TEDx talk?

Kirsty:                     The feedback was immediate. As I walked off stage they had lined up, full crew behind, and were giving me high fives as I walked past. One of my best friends was outside when I came off and I just said, "Oh my gosh, that's either going to be the stupidest thing I ever did or the bravest thing." And I got to talk to quite a few people who were at the event. And then it took three months for it to go off online on the TEDx site, so in that time I was able to hear from people that they had seen this video and that it had opened them up to share other kinds of truth, and since then have received thousands of messages and emails. So it definitely changed the trajectory of my career. I've shifted in a lot of ways.

Kirsty:                     The work that I was doing in corporate and am incorporating a lot more of this because you can't go professionally where you won't to go personally. So this stuff shows up as CEO's of fortune five hundred companies and where our past shows up in our present, those past behaviors of being bullied or abused, if we don't heal them can show up dysfunctionally in the workplace. So it's definitely influenced a lot of what I do and it's much more rewarding for me to be able to help people work through this tougher stuff.

Mike:                       And you and I have talked about this before. The fact that what you were sharing about was such a personal situation. A sexually transmitted disease or infection is very personal and people think, "Well that's not going to relate to the corporate world." But yet companies are coming to you, organizations are coming to you as you just referenced saying, "Hey can you share this message with our people?" Could you explain how that fits, how that aligns? You made a little reference there just now about, hey if we don't have these truths affect us in the workplace, so can we dab a little deeper into that?

Kirsty:                     Yeah, like I said, you can't go professionally where you won't go ...

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:24:04]

Kirsty:                     Yeah, I mean like Em said, you can't go professionally where you won't go personally. So, an example would be I was working with a CEO who ... he had built as a solo entrepreneur a $30 million company. And we were talking about the past showing up in the present. And one of the behaviors that he had noticed as a leader is he felt anxiety around always getting it wrong.

Kirsty:                     Now, you can imagine, as leader of a $30 million business, you have to make some decisions and not be afraid that you're always going to get it wrong. And that would have a serious impact on his work and his leadership style. And when we looked at that and where it had come from, it was back to about age two or three. His father was an alcoholic, and so he was constantly as a child being made to feel wrong, to step on eggshells, to never know which father was going to show up at home at night. And to be feeling like he disappointed him, that he got everything wrong, that nothing was ever right.

Kirsty:                     And so most organizations don't have these kinds of conversations, or don't allow the space for it. But when you do, it's amazing what comes up. And then they just have these aha moments and they're like, "Wow, I never thought that that might be connected. That might my past is showing up in my present." And so I think there's a lot of ways that looking at truth telling ... because it's not about my personal story, and I say that to clients. Sometimes I don't even go into that, it really depends on the situations. But it's not about the individual, because every single person we know statistically, the numbers show us, that in every room of CEO's that I work with and leadership groups and conferences, there are pretty much one in three to one in five of every person in that room, whether it's addiction, rape, trauma, depression, suicide. It's one in three to one in five for most things.

Kirsty:                     And so every single person in that room has been impacted by something. And that's what it's about, looking at where personally something has gone on for you, and how if you haven't healed that, cleared that, worked through that, it might be showing up in self loathing, in maybe not being the person who'll speak up in the boardroom, or ask for a pay rise, or share ideas. So maybe you become more closed off. Or for others it can be hyper aggressiveness, bullying and putting up defenses in that way. Or, like myself, success camouflaged all of my unworthiness, and so staying hyper busy and busy in every way, talking fast, eating fast, being on the go. Like I was just the most frenetic masculine energy kind of person. And now, being able to be more into my truth self and to feel like I can have that femininity, that I can slow down. That I can connect in meaningful ways, that I don't have to get pulled into other people's energy or agenda.

Kirsty:                     It's like all of that is important in showing up as our best self and being able to be creative, and to be an amazing person and leader at home and at work.

Mike:                       Well, and it's such a freedom that it gives you, versus feeling like you're living by others, right? By this pressure, by this guilt, by this shame, by these expectations. I can just be, I can just be present.

Mike:                       Now, earlier you mentioned meditation and giving yourself time for that. What are the practices that you utilize in your life to make sure that you're honoring that space of being you in your thoughts and your feelings, and not numbing by staying busy? Because most of us do it, and some of you might be thinking, "Well, I don't really keep myself busy," but if we watched you, you'd be looking at your phone right now if someone wasn't engaging you, which is an exact form of keeping busy.

Mike:                       So, it's not keeping busy as in you have to be in motion, it's that the mind or the body has to keep busy. It could be either or both. So, what are ways you help yourself? You mentioned meditation, what are some ways?

Kirsty:                     The biggest thing is that I started a daily energy management chart. So, I wrote a whole list of things, whether it's using essential oils, staged smudging, salt bath showers, things that clear energy. And so I started looking at, for me, whenever I went into anxiety, it was actually energetic sensitivity. That I would become so overwhelmed and so tired, and drained easily by big groups of people, for me it was more about managing my energy.

Kirsty:                     So, now what I'll do, on Saturday is a good example, I went on a road trip with some friends to San Diego, it's a three hour drive. So, by the time we drove down there, we stopped, we had lunch with some people, then we went to the beach, then we drove to the next house and we had dinner. By the end of the day, I wasn't enjoying myself. I'd lost my joy of having those conversations. What I should have done is at 2 or 3 O'Clock gone and had half an hour to lay down, to meditate, to just be by myself. And just collect back my sense of self, and not feel so pulled, so drained, so tired from everybody else's energy, and all the connections and the conversations.

Kirsty:                     And so I'm getting much better at that. I really am conscious to, I call it pressing pause, in the middle of the day. So for me, it's by about one or two O'Clock, I found when I was using this chart, I would monitor my numbers. So, every two hours for a week or two, good for people to do this, at 8 AM, 10 AM, 12 O'Clock, 4 O'Clock, 6 O'Clock, that kind of thing, just to check in on a scale of one to ten, one being that I'm feeling really low, and ten being I'm the highest vibration that I could possibly be. And then I would notice that I would start at a ten, and I would drop down to an eight, or a seven, or a six.

Kirsty:                     And if I didn't catch it by the time it was about a six or a seven, by the end of the day I would be at a two, and the next day I would start lower. And it would be cumulative, and by the end of the week I couldn't catch back up.

Kirsty:                     So, I found by pressing pause at about 2 O'Clock when I'd find those numbers were dropping a little bit, at about a six or a seven, I can go do a five minute meditation, a ten minute run around the block, lay down even and have a little cat nap. Whatever it is, I have a great stress hypnosis CD I use, and I love the insight timer App, and the liberal weight series, it's beautiful. So, it can be something very short and simple with a lot of deep breathing. And I can bring myself back to center, and I can bring my numbers back up to an eight, or a nine, or a ten, very quickly if I press pause in the middle of the day.

Kirsty:                     So that for me has probably been the biggest shift in noticing that I'm like a runaway train, and if I don't press pause and I don't notice it, I'm going to end up more depleted and more exhausted over the coming days, and not be able to bring myself back to center as easily.

Kirsty:                     And then for me, what are those things I have a list at the bottom of the page on my chart of the things that bring me back to center fast? And so going to the beach, putting my feet in the water, within 20 minutes if you're close enough to be able to do that. What are those things for you? Is it watching the sunset, is it watching your kids play? Is it being away from your kids? Meditation?

Kirsty:                     So, finding two or three things that are your quick go to that I can use to press pause and gather myself really fast. I mean I love journaling, gratitude lists are proven, the research behind gratitude lists and how they can affect us emotionally is there. As with exercise. So, for people suffering with anxiety and mental health, the first thing I say to them is, "Are you exercising? Are you eating right? Are you not drinking alcohol? Are you doing gratitude lists?" This takes inner work, it doesn't shift on its own. It takes work and homework for you to learn these skills.

Kirsty:                     And then they get easier and they become a natural part of your day. But it's frustrates me how many people I meet who want to go on medication, who are so desperate, but they're not doing any of these things.

Mike:                       Well, what we're going to do is we're going to provide everyone a link to that chart so that they can be able to see this and utilize this, because it's such a great tool that you provide. So that's wonderful.

Mike:                       I want to thank you Kirsty, because you've given us so much wisdom here, and so much skills that we can use to find our truth, to speak our truths, and to be aware of our energy levels. So, thank you so much.

Kirsty:                     My pleasure.

Mike:                       For all of our listeners, you can find Kirsty at kirstytv.com, it's that easy. Kirstytv.com. She also has two books she really recommends, I'm going to have those in the show notes, so you've got to go see the show notes to find out what those are. You can always do that at respectpodcast.com, or on iTunes right in your show notes.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of the Respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Save Project, at datesaveproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:33:06]

 

 

Considered an “Icon of Influence in the New Media Space”, Sean hosts the popular live online radio show, Life Transformation Radio, heard in over 58 countries and thousands of weekly listeners.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Skip works with small business owners in virtually every industry from hometown banks and credit unions, independent insurance agencies, small manufacturers, food distributors, and even plumbers.

 

During his baseball career Skip served as CEO for five different franchises over 16 years leading teams affiliated with the Boston Red Sox, Cincinnati Reds, New York Mets, Seattle Mariners, Tampa Bay Rays and Texas Rangers.

 

In his work today Skip focuses first on improving communication in the work environment, which is always the primary cause of problems, challenges, frustrations, and issues getting in the way of a more positive, more productive, and even more profitable company.

 

In 2018, Skip’s first book will be published, “Overcoming The 7 Deadliest Communication SINs: A New Standard for Workplace Communication.”

 

 

Book site: www.7DeadliestCommunicationSINs.com

Primary Website: www.YourChampionshipCompany.com

Twitter: skip_weisman

LinkedIN: www.linkedin.com/in/skipweisman/

Facebook: www.facebook.com/yourchampionshipcompany/

 

 

BIO of Alan Stein Jr:
Alan Stein, Jr. is a performance coach, consultant, speaker and author. He spent 15 years working with the highest performing basketball players on the planet.Alan delivers high-energy keynotes and interactive workshops to improve performance, cohesion and accountability. He inspires and empowers everyone he works with to take immediate action and improve mindset, habits and productivity.In other words, Alan teaches how to utilize the same strategies in business that elite athletes use to perform at a world-class level.He is an amicably divorced father of twin sons (Luke and Jack) and a daughter (Lyla) and lives just outside of Washington, D.C..

 

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages::

Recorded Mike:                  Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US Military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike:                                         Welcome to this episode, yes, I'm your host Mike Domitrz. I'm excited to have our guest today, Alan Stein Jr., he is with alansteinjr.com, make sure you put the jr in there, the j-r, 'cause it is a very different website if you do not put the j-r in there. Thanks for joining us here today Alan.

Alan:                                          Oh, my pleasure Mike, thank you.

Mike:                                         So Alan, you're all about performance, and this show's all about respect. So let's dive in to how does respect play a role in performance. I should back up a little bit, 'cause you've done TEDx talks, you speak with organizations, sports teams, pro teams, you have a wide variety of experience, so let's start there.

Mike:                                         Can you give a little quick background on you.

Alan:                                          Yeah, absolutely. I've spent most of my career in basketball, primarily at the youth level, but was able to work with some really elite level youth, many of which are playing in the MBA now. And my number one job then was to improve their on-court performance, so I was working on their athleticism and so forth.

Alan:                                          About a year and a half ago, I decided to parley everything that I've learned from the game of basketball and from some of the world's best players and coaches, and take that over to the corporate sector to teach businesses and organizations how they can improve their performance. And there's a very very high rate of transfer, I mean, what it takes for a Kobey Bryant or LeBron James or Stephen Curry to be successful, is not that different from the fundamentals that it take guys like you and I to be successful as well.

Alan:                                          So I'm having a blast in this new space and I was really looking forward to this conversation because I believe respect is the foundation to which all of this is built, and look forward to volleying that back and forth with you.

Mike:                                         Well we're gonna dive right in there, 'cause that's what I do when I work with organizations, is help them build the foundation or culture of respect. So how do you feel it's vital and plays a role in performance?

Alan:                                          When I was working with basketball players, respect was something that was talked about all of the time and it was emphasized from a few different vantage points. One thing that I learned as a coach, you get what you emphasize. So if you want a culture of respect then certainly you need to be a respectful person and you need to give respect to those around you. But it goes deeper to that, going back to basketball players, first of all they have to have a respect for themselves. They have to respect their body, and take care of their body to make sure they are in great physical shape, they need to respect the game, they need to respect the process of what it takes to be a great player, which means not skipping steps and doing and mastering the basics and fundamentals.

Alan:                                          They need to respect their team-mates and their coaches of course, they need to respect the officials, respect is the thread that binds all of these different things together, and I don't think that it's any different in the corporate world. I'm a huge believer, and I love that you mentioned culture, I believe culture is what drives sustainable results and creating a culture of respect is imperative and for me, I've never liked the word employee. I'm a stickler for terminology and sometimes I feel like the word employee gives a connotation that someone is superior to someone else.

Alan:                                          So I always perform just using the word colleague, and if I was the CEO and there were 500 people "working for me", I would still want them to view me as a colleague, and I would treat them with the same respect that I would treat anyone in the organization, from the building service person all the way through the executive staff. Everyone should be treated with the same dignity and respect, and that needs to be, again, I know we keep using the word foundation, but everything else will crumble if you don't have that in place.

Mike:                                         I agree, and it's true in homes too, 'cause some people listening to our show, they're applying this to their family life. So how do you see it showing up in family life?

Alan:                                          So I'm amicably divorced and the reason I bring that up, first of all I realized that I'm in the minority of folks that are divorced, to be able to say that you're amicably divorced and get along really well with your ex, I'm finding that that's a rarity, so I'm very thankful for that.

Alan:                                          But the only reason that I can boast that is because we both immediately, despite our differences, said we're going to approach this divorce with respect. We have three children, we have twin sons that are eight, and a six year-old daughter and we both said look, despite the fact that our relationship's not what we thought it would be, the way that we respect each other is going to have a profound impact on how our children view the world, and how our children enter relationships. The way that I treat their mother, that's how my sons will eventually learn how to treat women. I'm modeling that for them. And for my daughter, the way that I treat her mother is how she'll be expected to be treated by men.

Alan:                                          So to me, being respectful in all cases is really important and as I know that you know, you can disagree, you can have debate, you can have professional differences, but you can do so in a very respectful and tactful and appropriate way. This isn't about everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya all of the time. It's okay to have differences, differences in beliefs and differences in opinion. Bu you can have those differences respectfully and that is one of the most important things that I want to model for my children.

Mike:                                         Love it, and that is exactly what we teach with parents, what are you role modeling. Even when it comes to, we teach, hey, would you want your child to have a choice before somebody kisses them? And they're like, of course, I don't want someone just kissing my child without ... Okay, but do you role model that? And parents like, what do you mean, ask my spouse before I kiss them? Well how else are they gonna learn?

Mike:                                         And why wouldn't you just do that because it's the right thing to do. But parents go, well that's not what most people do. Well tradition isn't necessarily healthy or respectful.

Alan:                                          That's a great way to separate those two and I agree completely. Modeling, especially when it comes to children, is what's most important. And respect comes into that ten-fold. I can talk about being respectful to my children, but if they see me disrespect a waiter or waitress, or a flight attendant, or anybody else, a cashier, that's gonna speak at a much higher volume than what I tell them to do. So it always comes back to modeling.

Alan:                                          But not just for children. The same is true in coaching, the same is true in leadership. I've always believed that time is our most precious resource and one of the ways that we show other people that we respect them is by being respectful of their time and valuing their time. So while things obviously pop up, I'm not gonna imply that I've never been late to anything, but I do my best to be prompt, if not early, to every engagement that I have because I think that's a sign of respect.

Alan:                                          Perfect example would be, someone in a leadership position telling everybody on the staff that they need to be on time for meetings, and then they themselves walk in three minutes late. I find that to be disrespectful behavior. Now it doesn't mean they're a disrespectful person, it just means in that example they exhibited disrespectful behavior. And I think respect undermines everything that we do in every aspect of our life.

Mike:                                         Well let's back up there, 'cause I think you said something very important. It's also in the mindfulness level, which is, disrespectful behavior does not mean disrespectful person. Right, this is not, you made a bad choice therefore you are a bad person. This is, you're a good person who's failing to display respect, or to show respect or to give respect, and that is a different discussion, because as soon as people think, are you calling me not respectful?, now you got a battle, now you got friction going on, they're not opening to learning, or new possibilities.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, and I love that you're able to separate behavior from the underlying character of a person, because we all we're flawed, we're all under construction, we're all works in progress, we're all going to make mistakes, and especially if you're going to have a respectful disagreement or a respectful confrontation with someone, I think it's important that you do separate those things. And for me, to be able to say, yeah Mike, you showing up to the meeting late today was disrespectful of your colleagues is different than me saying. Mike, you're disrespectful, or you don't have any respect for this organization, or you don't respect the person next to you. Especially if you've established the credibility that I know that you do, you just made a mistake, and it'd be no different than certainly I've said my share of boneheaded things in the past, that doesn't mean I'm a stupid person. I may have said something stupid or said something that I wish that I wouldn't have said the way that I said it, but we can't let that tear down everything.

Alan:                                          However, I will say that when someone continually shows habits of disrespect, that now that does question some portions of their character. It's that old adage, the first time you do something, it's a mistake; the second time it's a decision. So if I'm constantly late to meetings, then I'm not valuing the time of my colleagues and that's something that needs to be addressed.

Mike:                                         Yeah, and we talk about this, that the person who even if you don't like them, you still have to treat them with respect. That's the foundation of saying we're creating a culture of respect. It's one thing we teach organizations all the time, if they go, well that person ... like you gave an example there. I can say that says something about your character and I still have to respect you. It's not, and because that says about your character, now I don't have to respect you, which is what people will do.

Mike:                                         And the irony is, to say that person is disrespectful, you just disrespected. You just blanketed their entire character, or they don't ... here's my one that I talk about a lot with organizations. They haven't earned my respect. Which means, well when did you earn their respect? You see the game that gets played here? Now we get to choose who we want to respect and who we don't wanna respect, versus I'm gonna respect you no matter what happens I'm gonna respect you as a fellow person. Now I may disagree with you, or not value certain values you have or judgements you have, that's different than not respecting you as a person, or your intellect, or your contributions.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, you stated that brilliantly. And that's coming from a place of humility that we're all on a level playing field. Just the fact that we're standing upright and we're breathing, we're human beings and we're worthy and deserving of respect of each other. And that has to be that foundation.

Alan:                                          It's funny because in my talks I actually substitute the word respect for care. And say that you don't have to like the person next to you, but you choose whether or not you care about them because caring is an act of will, caring is a choice. And when organizations have folks that can care, or in your case, respect, I think in this case they're synonyms, if you can respect the person next to you even if they're not your BFF, that's how you build a really strong culture. Because you choose whether or not to respect someone else, you choose whether or not to care about them. You choose whether or not you're going to respect or care about the mission of the organization, so no, we're definitely speaking the same language.

Mike:                                         Why Alan, I like this because I think there's some differences that are important to discuss, which is the care and respect. And the reason why we use respect in those situations. I could care about a relative who I think does not contribute well to conversations, therefore I will not respect their opinion, is what can happen. So, I love you but I can't stand what you say.

Mike:                                         We all have family members that will say, I love that person, I can't stand what they say, and so right away there's a little bit of disrespect. So I can care and disrespect, people do it. I love you, but I discount this part, or I discount that. Which means, that's not truly caring.

Mike:                                         So, I agree with you, full caring would be very close, but people tend to dice and play with those and say, well, I care but I don't value you because of this. Okay, well respect means you have to value me, do I add value in this world?

Mike:                                         I think a great example is in the sport's world, we can go look at basketball back in the day, those who are old enough who are listening know that during Michael Jordan's run he had a key piece on his team, a key piece that people wondered how did they operate on the same court? How did this person have the patience to deal with this other person's off the court antics and seemed to be self-focused, and a lot of people when they hear this they know that we're referring to a great rebounder in Dennis Rodman.

Alan:                                          I saw it coming.

Mike:                                         Yes right, and people have this perception that you had a troublemaker in Dennis Rodman, they wanted to label the whole person troublemaker, still to this day due to politics and other things, he still has this label at times. And Jordan was this amazing, almost they put him on a God pedestal of athletics, how did that operate.

Mike:                                         So how can you explain to people, and I'm fortunate in that I have read some of the stories on how Phil Jackson the coach dealt with that, but I'd love for you to share, for our listeners, how they made that work, 'cause there could have been easy disconnect of failure to respect there, and it never would have worked.

Alan:                                          Well, the best teams that I've ever been a part of, whether it's a basketball team, or a corporate organization, they recognize the fact that you build a team the same way that you'd build a puzzle, and that every piece is important, and that pieces are shaped differently and they look differently but you need them all to make the final puzzle, which means everybody has a different role, and of utmost important in any team or organization is respecting your teammates or your colleagues role, even when they're different from yours, even if they're "bigger or smaller" than yours, it doesn't matter.

Alan:                                          You have to respect the fact that this person brings something unique and helpful and beneficial to the team, and we have to respect that. And I think, again I'm not privy to any information but, I believe Michael Jordan had a respect for the role that Dennis Rodman played. He was an elite defender, one of the best rebounders the game has ever seen, he would hustle his butt off, and I think that made it a little easier for Jordan to tolerate some of the other antics that he probably didn't prefer, but since he had a respect for Rodman as a human being and a respect for him as a teammate, but most importantly respected his role and knew that in order for us, the Bulls, to be successful, this guy needs to fulfill his role to the best of his ability.

Alan:                                          And that absolutely deserves respect and with a basketball team especially, players ten to fifteen, the ones that don't see the court a whole lot for playing time during the games, it's so important for the coach and some of the "star players" to really show respect to those players, because they're integral to the success of the team, especially when it comes to practice.

Alan:                                          So I think it that case it comes down to respecting the fact that everybody has a role, and everyone's role is important regardless of what it is.

Mike:                                         There's recent research that was showing that on a team, like a basketball team of five, that if you have more than two true all-out stars, your odds of winning go down severely. And you're agreeing with this, I can see you're agreeing with me, so do you think that is a lack of respect that everybody starts to get "me" focused, when it's all-stars versus role players, that everybody respects each others' roles, what do you think is the cause of that?

Alan:                                          Well in elite level basketball I think that's very true, although I find it fascinating because in the MBA you've got 450 or some players and outside of maybe the top 25 guys, the LeBrons and the Durants and the Russell Westbrooks, outside of those guys, everybody else in the league is pretty much a role player. They have one or maybe two very specific skills that they do at an incredibly high level. So yes, I think if you were to try, and we've seen this in many cases, Golden State might be the only group that might be able to prove otherwise, but if you're taking two, three or four guys from that top 25 and putting them on the same team, I think it makes it challenging for any of them to not be the alpha male, and to accept a role that they consider less than what they're capable of.

Alan:                                          I think that's where you run into problems, but you know we just saw it with Houston this last season. A lot of people didn't think Chris Paul and James Harden could play together, because they're both very ball-dominant players. They worked magic, they were wonderful because they both respected the fact that the other guy was an elite-level player and scorer and could take pressure off of them, and they viewed themselves then more as a two-headed monster instead of someone that had to do it by themselves.

Alan:                                          But yes, I think if you start stockpiling three of four alpha males on the same team, it just gets harder for someone to accept what they consider a lesser role. But that's what I think Golden State has done so brilliantly, you know, you've got Durant and you've got Curry but Draymond Green and Klay Thompson, who are superstars in their one right, they accept ... and when I say lesser role, I don't mean that to the value they add to the team, I simply mean in the eyes of most fans-

Mike:                                         Right, how many touches are they going to get, exactly. Right, so how does that play in the corporate world, how does that play in people respecting their roles, when you start to get together that rock star sales team, how do you keep them, right, because the sales team deals with the same thing, the corporate world retention's a major issue. And how do you keep a bunch of rock stars on the same team in the corporate world, respecting each others' roles.

Alan:                                          Well, in corporate especially I find it in different departments, like I wanna make sure that the sales team has a huge respect for the folks that work behind the scenes, that customer-facing colleagues have just as much respect for the people that are building and maintaining the infrastructure behind. Lots of times that's the separation, it's like hey, I'm gonna bring sales and I'm gonna bring business to the company but then it's up to your team to support and to keep the client relations and make sure that things continue to work together. So I think the first step is making sure that everyone in the different departments has a very high respect level for what the other person is doing. Because if any one of those groups were to falter, everybody suffers.

Alan:                                          And then when it comes to sales, you have to have the confidence that a raising tide will raise all boats type of mentality, that I can still be an elite salesperson, but you're my colleague and I can still help and support you. When you're going after an account, I can play the assist person on that to help you land that account, because it's good for all of us. And you have to have that belief that the better our organization does, and the better our company does, that will come back to me in many ways. And it's not zero sum.

Alan:                                          Same things with the best teams. The best basketball teams I were a part of, it didn't matter who scored the basket, it just mattered that we scored. Someone in our color jersey puts it in the basket, it's a win for all of us, don't worry about who does it.

Mike:                                         So, in these situations, especially in the corporate world but same in sports, the one barrier that seems to step in here is jealousy. Is this idea of but I'm just as good, and I'm not getting the sales opportunities that they're getting, they're handing the hottest, biggest contracts to that person, not me, and I'm just as good. There's a comparison/jealousy that's taking place. How do you help people address that in a way that helps them shift their parameters, 'cause that's what we talk about with them, it's shifting that parameter from a comparison mode to a respect of, so what is it going to take for me to get that opportunity? And if that's truly a culture of respect, I'm gonna have that opportunity, I'm gonna have that chance.

Mike:                                         How do you address that?

Alan:                                          I believe that there's only two things in this world that any of us have 100% control over, 100% of the time, and that's our effort and our attitude. Certainly our attitude is our ability to show and receive respect, so we're talking about the same thing, but I would if I was a leader in that organization, I would promote a culture where everyone focuses on their effort and their attitude and their preparation and their execution. That it's not about the comparison game, that's a game that's played all of the time now especially on social media, but it's a dangerous game because it's one that no-one can win.

Alan:                                          If you allowed outside metrics and barometers to determine your own value, you will always lose that game. Because it doesn't matter what we are talking about, whether we're talking about sales ... if I walk outside of my office right now, within 30 seconds I'll find someone with a bigger house, with a nicer car, with more money, who has more speaking engagements, who's done ... you'll always lose if that is your measurement of self-worth. So it needs to go back to your own attitude and your own effort and fulfilling your role to the organization to the best of your ability.

Alan:                                          That takes practice and it takes emphasis and reinforcement from everybody in the organization because I do believe it's human nature that if you and I are sales colleagues and you keep landing the big accounts, there will be some inherent jealousy there which is why, if we foster the right type of culture, one, you'll land those accounts with graciousness, respect and humility, and you'll share the wealth. You'll let everyone know that, hey, I might have been the one that landed this big account, but I couldn't do this without everybody else in this organization that supports me, that I don't land any account by myself. This is something we all do together.

Alan:                                          And the same thing from a leadership standpoint. If someone was constantly saying, hey Alan, I know Mike landed that account but man, you've been really killing it for us and we appreciate all of the work that you've been doing, I think those type of steps in that type of culture can lessen that inherent jealousy.

Mike:                                         Well yeah and the key there is the person who lands the account, share how you did it. That's respect right. If I'm being closed and I'm not telling you how I did things, that means I don't trust you. That means this is now about us competing and even though I'm landing everything, I'm just as scared as you are, 'cause I'm about holding the secrets. So I don't really respect you, 'cause I think you'll betray me, so I won't give you this information because I think you'll slash right from under me and steal some of this business from me.

Mike:                                         That's what privacy, that idea of scarcity versus prosperity, and so that becomes a big piece of, if you're running an organization right now you have to ask yourself, do my top performers, do they run from a place of prosperity? Are they sharing with everyone exactly how they landed the last success? So that everybody can land that same kind of success.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, I love that. And that is the definition of a winning culture, and in some regards too, and I know we're just talking in hypotheticals, but maybe a qualified prospect comes across your plate, and it's an easy softball lob and you toss it over to me 'cause you know that I've been in a little bit of a slump and you let me close the deal. No different than, I've scored the last ten points and you're in a shooting slump, I'm gonna find you the easiest basket I can get you to get you going again. It does, it takes a tremendous amount of humility, and any time there's humility there also has to be that confidence what you just mentioned.

Alan:                                          That hey, I can tell everyone in the organization, shoot, I can post on social media how I just closed this deal, because I don't care if anybody else knows. I'm confident in my ability to do what I did, and that is ultimately a very, very high sign of respect.

Mike:                                         Yeah, it's like we're members of the National Speakers Association. And people ask me all the time, wait, Mike, you got to this convention with other speakers. Nobody's telling you how they actually built their business are they, because then you could cut the business out from under them. I'm like, it's exactly what they're doing, is sharing everything. Because they know what they did is their business and I'm not taking away from them by applying it to my topic or my business, even if we're in the same topic, I'm gonna do it differently. They're gonna do it differently, we don't need to be afraid of each other, we can actually grow from each other, and push the boundaries and just become that much better.

Mike:                                         When you have a friend and you're both succeeding, it's like, alright, now here, now here, and its a positive push, it's not a jealousy thing. It's a wow, you did that, I wanna figure out how to do that. And because I want to experience that opportunity to have that impact, the way you're having that impact. And that's really key, isn't it?

Alan:                                          Absolutely, it's been one of the most refreshing things about entering this new landscape of being a professional speaker, is how willing and selfless and unselfish and caring and respectful so many of the other speakers are. I don't know why I was shocked, I had no reason to assume it'd be otherwise, but I just think it's been amazing how much people give back. That was one of my favorite parts about being in the coaching fraternity. Many of the old-school coaches, they would sit down with each other and exchange tips on recruiting, exchange plays, exchange ... even if they're gonna play that person twice that upcoming season, they know hey, they can go get this play if they scout us anyway, so why don't I just share it with them and let's talk about why we run it, and everybody gets better.

Alan:                                          It takes tremendous confidence to take off your armor and share everything. For me, I'm 42 years old, I have the humility to know I didn't invent anything in the speaking industry, this is all stuff that I'm going to be learning from others, either interactions with folks like you, or reading a book, or attending an NSA conference. So if I'm learning it from someone else, it's not for mine to hold on to. I'll pass that down to someone else, and if in a few years someone reaches out to me that's just starting in the professional speaking business, and they'd love some tips or some advice, I'd be honored to give it to them, because other people did that for me.

Alan:                                          So it's not really ours to hold onto, and again with our theme, I think that's showing respect not only to the person you're dealing with, but a respect to the industry, a respect to the profession and the craft of speaking that we should all be here to help each other because, at the end of the day, you're going out to speak to make an impact, to help companies improve their culture and improve respect. Which will make this world a better place. So why would I not be rooting for you, why would I not want you out there doing your thing making this world a better place? 'Cause that's what I'm trying to do and I don't have that mentality that it's you vs me. Yeah, there might be some times where we, other speakers in the business, we're going up for the same gig and you lose out, but that's okay, there's some much business out there and it just simply means that you weren't a right fit. It would never come down to, I shared something with you, you put it in place, and now they want you instead of me.

Alan:                                          The chances of that happening is almost zero.

Mike:                                         Yeah, it's incredibly slim. That's correct.

Mike:                                         What's a book that has had a massive impact on you, on your own journey?

Alan:                                          Well from a basketball standpoint, I'm a Coach K fan, I'm a diehard Mike Krzyzewski Duke basketball fan and he's written several books, but one called Leading With The Heart, is one that I love. And he also wrote one called Gold Standard, and those were written for the business world but obviously through the lens of one of the best basketball coaches in history, so there's a lot of transfer and crossover there.

Alan:                                          I don't know if you know Phil Jones, I know we run in similar circles, but Phil wrote a book called Exactly What To Say, which is not as much a book as it is kind of a guide or a handbook, on how powerful terminology is, and if you go back and look at the way that he chooses to phrase and position certain statements, it all comes from a position of being very respectful.

Alan:                                          I met earlier with another friend of ours, Ian Altman, tremendous speaker, he has a book called Same Side Selling, which talks about not looking at you vs me when you're selling to someone, but you and me, and let's work together to solve a problem.

Mike:                                         That's perfect, and we'll include those in the show notes for everyone listening. Alan, I wanna thank you for joining us, it's been wonderful.

Alan:                                          Thank you so much, I enjoyed it as well.

Recorded Mike:                  Thank you for joining us for this episode of The RESPECT Podcast, which was sponsored by The Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to the Respect podcast. I am your host Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military, create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started.

Mike:                       Alright I am super excited today because I get to have a friend of mine, a brother of mine, not by blood but certainly by all other methods. We've known each other for so long, we built the early years of our speaking businesses together. Up on the phone until 4 a.m. trying to make a difference in this world together, decades ago now. And so happy to have you on. So this is Dr. Sean Stevenson, a dear friend, brilliant. You may know him because you may have seen him on TV. That's correct. For instance, the biography channel produced an hour long feature on his life called the Three Foot Giant.

Mike:                       But he's also worked with companies like Nike, Whole Foods, Zappos, Walmart, Sharp Healthcare. He's shared the stage with presidents, billionaires, business moguls, celebrities, and the Dalai Lama. It's just amazing, Sean's story. Now Sean, obviously I know your story inside and out but I'm going to let you tell the brief version of it, so it comes from your authentic voice. Give me a little background on how you got to where you are today, helping organizations and individuals really develop to where they want to be.

Sean:                       Yeah, yeah. So, I'd say the most fascinating part that people get really zoned in on when they're learning about Sean Stevenson and what I have to offer is they're intrigued by the container I'm in. That's where it starts. Being born with a rare bone disorder called Osteogenesis Imperfecta, also known as brittle bones disorder. Doctors told my parents I'd be dead within the first 24 hours of my life and my joke on stage is 39 years later, all those doctors are dead and I'm still here. The only doctor remaining. And that I have a very clear message to rid this world of insecurity. I've had to face a lot of my own insecurities. Still do to this day and my mentors over the years have really groomed me. And I'm so grateful that they have pushed on me to look at what can I do with the time that I have to make the biggest splash on this planet while I'm still here? And hopefully create a body of work that will outlive beyond.

Sean:                       And I met you, as you said, through that process of evolving. And Mike, I consider you my frientor. You're as much a friend as a mentor. And my goal here today is to share with the listener, the viewer to ... how I have built up an internal world that is a very peaceful space and one that I think then creates a space externally that can help that permeate into society. And by no means am I perfect. I've made a bunch of mistakes. I'm continuing to make them, but as I've learned, if you're willing to observe your own ego and really work on yourself, forgive what you've done and move forward, you can really create some cool things with the time you've got here.

Mike:                       And you have. You already have, in addition to what you will do going forward. How do you think respect played a role both in your early years, maybe where it was a struggle to figure out what I'm going to do here, what my path is going to be, and then on each juncture along the way?

Sean:                       If I could define respect for me, so that we're on similar footing on what I think is respect, I think respect is acknowledging value. And the moment somebody doesn't feel valued, their body doesn't feel valued, their intellect doesn't feel valued, their emotions, their spirit. When we feel devalued, we don't feel respected. And it works the same from within. So if you aren't acknowledging your own value, you aren't seeing what are you doing right and what are you proud of and what are you grateful for. When you're not willing to go inside and acknowledge your value and what you created, you won't be able to respect yourself. And therefore ... it's very hard to give something to somebody else that you won't give to yourself.

Sean:                       You can do it. There's a lot of people that are nice to others that aren't nice to themselves, but it's a lot easier to have peace externally if you have peace internally. And I also kind of merge something else in with this respect conversation, which is trust. And I believe that those are two pillars of gaining somebody's rapport, gaining rapport with them. And if respect in my definition is acknowledging value, then trust is acknowledging agenda. That if you are clear on what your agenda is and you are actually truthful about your agenda and you're not saying one thing and doing another, if you are clear on your agendas, people can begin to trust you.

Sean:                       And then if you make sure that their value is acknowledged, the second you know someone's agenda and it's accurate, and you know they respect you, you will allow them in to coach you, to lead you, to guide you. And the moment pain arises, the moment you pull back go "Ow, why'd you do that" is the moment that somebody feels that your agenda wasn't authentic or that you actually didn't really believe that they were valuable and you were just going through the motions to try to win them over.

Sean:                       And what I've found is as long as we have that bond of this person sees my value and I know what their true agenda is, we can create such magic together. And you don't even need to ... this is what blows my mind. You don't even need to like somebody to trust them because you could see them and they could be clear about something that you're like "Nah, I don't want anything to do with them." But at least when you know what their agenda is, you know what you're dealing with. I always have a problem is when people express an agenda that's false. They tell a girl "Oh, I love you" when they really don't love them. "I care about your children's well-being" when they really just care about your money.

Sean:                       And when we get those mixed agendas and then on top of it they don't really, truly see our value, they just came up with some pat response, it's really hard to build a bond.

Mike:                       Yeah, let's dive into this because I can remember back in my early days and even a decade ago, when I would send out an email and you'd learn from people who say "Well, take the email strategy this way so they don't really know what you're seeking is this over here." And you think okay they know what they're doing, I'll take that formula and you suddenly notice "Wait, nobody's wanting to respond to my emails a year later." Because you created a ... you though you were doing the right thing because you were mission based, you were topic based, you believed in what you were doing, but it wasn't a clear agenda.

Mike:                       You're better off to say if you're a salesperson "Yeah, this is what I'm selling. Yeah, because I believe in it, that's why."

Sean:                       So, we sell a lot through our company and we hold live events. You're actually going to be speaking at one soon. By the way, I've been looking forward to that for four years. So, when we start that event, we come right out and say "Look, we're going to pack this weekend together with great people, great material, and then we're going to, at some point we're going to make an offer to you that may or may not be for you and it's only for those that want to continue the party with me. That want to continue to learn and be guided and have the kind of fun that we're going to have. If that's not of interest to you, just listen and see what you can learn about sales in general and do what you want. You are free to follow your intuition."

Sean:                       And by setting that standard, being very clear, "I'm going to ask for fun tickets." Money, right? "I'm going to ask you for your fun tickets. In exchange I'm going to give you more fun and learning and is it okay if I do it in a way that you get a ton of value for what you already paid for and I'm just sharing with you an opportunity if you want to continue the party. Do I have your permission to make that offer to you?" Everybody said yes.

Mike:                       Right. Exactly. Because you're being upfront. But it's amazing how when we're raised in this society we're taught "Don't do that. Don't show your cards."

Sean:                       Because they think it's not going to work.

Mike:                       Right. It's fear.

Sean:                       Because they think it's not going to work. It's fear. It's also because let's be clear Mike, and I know you know this, but the listener needs to know this, and that is human beings can make a lot of impact financially and movement by screwing people over. And so if you are interpreting that "Oh, I need to screw people over to make movement in income." That's an incorrect statement. Because that's one way. It's not the way I like to roll. It's not the way you like to roll. It's not the way I think your listener would want to roll. But when you're naïve and you're just getting your start and you see somebody and you see that they're getting financial success or they're getting more exposure, you think "Oh, I guess I need to be a jerk."

Sean:                       And it's not true that's ... there are many ways to get inside a house. You can either put dynamite on the side of the wall or you can use a key. They'll both get you in. They'll both gain you entrance. One's going to have a far less devastating impact.

Mike:                       Yeah, that's a great analogy. I love that. And so, we were talking there about the fact of how we go about being upfront and being honest. What do you think is the number one fear people have in that moment? Because agenda is everything. We have agendas with our family. We have agendas with our work.

Sean:                       The word scares people.

Mike:                       Yes. Right, they didn't want to say "I have an agenda." They don't want ... "I don't have an agenda." That's the number one defense you'll hear. "I don't have an agenda." We all have agendas.

Sean:                       What I think they mean is "I don't have a negative agenda." And so that-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Sean:                       ... mean is, I don't have a negative agenda. So that's why you need to be very clear about the difference between empowering and limiting, draining and recharging agendas. I think it's very healing, it's very healing to be clear on your agenda. I could take it into the realm of romance, for a second.

Sean:                       On my first date with my wife, I said, "I would like to sleep with you someday." She was like, "What?" Like, what kind of guy says ... I didn't say it in a slick, gross, pushy way. I just said, someday I'd like to sleep with you. She said she trusted me in that minute. That was the moment she was like, "Oh, my God. This guy just made it very clear what his agenda was."

Sean:                       It didn't meant that I wouldn't be her friend if we weren't gonna do ... There was no manipulation. She's like, "But that was the moment I knew that I could trust you because you told me an actual, authentic agenda. I'd never heard a man confidentially say that." I say that same thing when I get into a sales call.

Sean:                       I say to somebody, "Listen, the opportunity I'm going to offer you is going to be 10 times what you're going to pay me, so I do not feel bad whatsoever in the exchange of receiving the energy that you worked hard to gather because I'm gonna 10X what you're paying for. So I want you to know, I'm going to get really excited by taking your money, because I'm exchanging something way greater for you."

Sean:                       They're like, "Heck yeah. Let's do this." Now, not everybody says, yes I'll pay. But everybody says, let's have a dialogue.

Mike:                       Right.

Sean:                       I just want people to be excited to have the dialogue. Whether it's about romance, whether it's about income, whether it's about progress, movement, making an impact. Let's not be afraid to ask for what we want. If they say no, they say no. It's okay.

Mike:                       How do think that plays ... What would be an example you could think of where that plays in family dynamics and putting the agenda out there?

Sean:                       Making it very clear, the standards that you set for your children, as a parenting role. Like, I have a very clear vision of you graduating with a great GPA. I have a vision of you working really hard on your mind, your body, and your spirit. I'm not asking anything from you that I am not doing myself.

Sean:                       You're going to see dad will be in the gym. You're going to see that dad works hard at Office. You see that dad works on his relationships with your mother. So, I'm not asking anything from you that I'm not willing to go first on, son / daughter / whomever. So being very clear on a vision that you hold. I think that is okay. Having a family, like, mission statement is setting an agenda. I think it's really good to also pull the agenda out of the kid.

Sean:                       Like, so what do you want out of this life? What are some of your goals, sweetie? Or even in a marriage. Like, how can I best support you? So Mindy and I, you were at our wedding. You know that I married my wife because I couldn't afford her coaching rates and I wanted her to coach me. Because she is the wisest, most beautiful person I know.

Sean:                       Mindy's goals are printed out next to my goals because I want to be able to see what's important to her every day. I want her to see what's important to me every day. I came to her multiple times and said, "Let me know what matters to you in this life. I need to know what matters." So I push on people to see, what do they want. So I think when it comes to a family dynamic, making no apologies for having awesome standards.

Sean:                       But here's the difference, nobody is going to be perfect. There are going to be so many days you're not going to want to get back up.

Mike:                       Yes. Kids can feel, if they don't understand this correctly, they can feel that that standard is an expectation of perfecting that.

Sean:                       So that is an imperfection of the communication from the parent, then. Not an imperfection, but just a lack of clarity. So that's why it has to be ... It's the same thing as like ... I heard this great mom talking about raising child and he said, "When a child's learning to walk, funny coming from somebody who doesn't walk. But when a child is learning to walk, you have to encourage them a thousand or a million times if necessary."

Sean:                       "So when they fall and they hit their head, they bump their butt. When they fall back, you pick them back up again. You're just encouraging them. You got it, you got it, good job, good job. You keep going." So you are both holding a standard of, you're going to walk, we're going to make this work. But also, everything that you do in the process of learning to walk, I'm going to support you, and love you, and be proud of you because you're in this process.

Sean:                       So when the kid is like, "But you have this vision for me." Say, "Yeah, but not a day goes by when I'm not gonna celebrate you for just being who you are." I love the quote by Byron Katie, "There is nothing that you can say or do that can stop me from loving you."

Mike:                       Absolutely truthful. Any parent-

Sean:                       It's so-

Mike:                       Any loving parent should get that message a hundred percent. I love that you say to them that, when you tried to walk, I lifted you back up. I supported you, I helped you do that. I'm going to do that with whatever battles, or mistakes, or failures that you have. I'm going to celebrate your success, but I'm also going to be there. You're going to fall. I fall, in some way or form, every week, every day. In some way or form, there's something that doesn't go right.

Sean:                       Yeah and there's something that I also like to have as a caveat when I'm working with people is to say, and at some point when I'm coaching, or I'm there therapist, or their friend. "At some point in the process, sweetie, you're going to blame me for not being where you should be. I want you to know I'm going to love you even when you blame me. I'm just going to patiently wait until you realize that I'm not the reason why you don't have what you want."

Mike:                       That's powerful.

Sean:                       Yeah. I'm not the reason why you don't have what you want, even how you feel. I love my wife. I know you love Karen, right. Yet, we're not responsible for their feelings.

Mike:                       Yeah. That one is huge, because a lot of people feel, "Wait a second. I'm married, it is part of my responsibility to be responsible for their joy and happiness." But more and more research has shown, that actually creates an unhealthy relationship. You should be able to be happy even on their worst day.

Sean:                       Yep.

Mike:                       They should be able to be happy on your worst day. You should obviously be able to be ... you should be able to be unhappy on their best day.

Sean:                       Yeah.

Mike:                       Right?

Sean:                       Yeah. In our marriage, Mindy and I call it, you need to be a self-cleaning oven.

Mike:                       Yeah, right. I love it. But it's hard to do, it's hard to do. Because when you're on a cloud nine-

Sean:                       It's hard not to do.

Mike:                       Yeah.

Sean:                       It's hard.

Mike:                       Yeah. I mean, you and I just had a conversation before we stared this. We're both on cloud right now because of things going on in our work and in our organizations. The day that cloud nine pops, right, this is going amazing. The last thing you want that moment is your partner to go, "Well, it's not going amazing for me, blah, blah, blah." We're like, not today. You shouldn't be saying that today. This is my day to be cloud nine.

Sean:                       That's the way I used to be.

Mike:                       Yeah, I've made the mistake, absolutely made the mistake and it's not fair. They are experiencing their life in their moment.

Sean:                       The moment you ... Talking about respect, the moment you are disrespectful, which is acknowledging, the moment you are not acknowledging a human being ... It's not even valuing now, if you think about it. It's acknowledgement in general. It's the moment you don't acknowledge their feelings, acknowledge their ideas, acknowledge their statements, acknowledge their mannerisms. The moment you stop acknowledging them, you deal with problems.

Mike:                       Yes.

Sean:                       You deal with problems, because look, I could be on cloud nine and if Mindy's not, the most loving thing I could do is to listen to where she is, because this is what partners do. Sometimes, and we don't mean to do it, but sometimes it happens where we try to see if we can rock that person out of their good day because they're pissing us off. The most loving things I can say to her, and she said to me before, is, "Babe, I love you and I'm not gonna come down in my frequency because that's not gonna pull you up."

Mike:                       Yeah, that's brilliant. Love it. It's so hard to do, right. You know, what's interesting is, when we're on cloud nine, it should be the easiest time to be compassionate because we have all this energy. But yet, we get caught up in let me be in my place. Right, let me be in my place. Don't you dare dent that.

Sean:                       Yeah. That right there, though, is from the psychology of the outside world can control my feelings.

Mike:                       Right.

Sean:                       Because if you don't ... Like, I don't buy that anymore. I used to, but I don't buy it whatsoever. So the moment I think that somebody can take me out of my bubble, I'm delusional.

Mike:                       So can you go a little deeper there so everybody can understand, because this is key of respecting yourself.

Sean:                       Yeah, yeah. The moment I think that you can shift my frequency, is the moment that I become a slave to you. The moment I go on a roller coaster that is where you can energetically manipulate me. It's the moment that I'm delusional. You are not responsible for how I feel. You can neither make me have a good day or make have a bad day.

Sean:                       You can influence me, but you can't change me. I have to do the lifting. Nobody can do Sean's pushups, energetically, or metaphorically, or physically. I have to do them. So if I'm on cloud nine and I come along and Mindy is angry, or overwhelmed, or upset and I'm like, "Damn it, why can't she be on the same plane as me." I am being delusional because she doesn't need to do anything to support my bubble. That's my responsibility.

Sean:                       Now, I might say to her, "Babe, if you would like me around this evening, I'm gonna need you to say some nicer things about me. If you do not want to say nicer things about me, I'm okay with going out and doing some things in the office or whatever. Just text me when you feel-"

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Sean:                       -some things in the office, or whatever, and I'll ... Just text me when you feel that the storm has rolled out. And-

Mike:                       Right, because this is really important for abusive situations. You don't want the listening right now thinking, "Oh, I have to tolerate. They're in their space; I'm in my space. So I have to tolerate that because I'm responsible for my happiness. They're responsible ..." So, how do you help people understand there's a difference here in what we're describing?

Sean:                       Light is both a wave and a particle, okay? Light, when you look at light, it's got waves and it's also got little particles? So, is light one or the other? No. It's both, right? So, you need to be able to respect your own boundaries and also maintain a level of a standard for how you want to be treated. So, no one is responsible for how you feel, but you are responsible for respecting your boundaries, and saying to somebody, "If you're gonna speak to me that way, or if you're gonna ever put your hands on me, or if ever you're going to try to do that demeaning behavior, I'm out. I maybe be either out for the night, out for the month, or out for my life." But you gotta determine.

Sean:                       I look at it whether it's in a relationship that can become abusive, because I've been in abusive relationships where I was mentally, emotionally abused. I can tell you, it came because I only had half the equation. I thought I was only a wave, or only a particle. I thought, "Well, I need to be responsible for my own feelings. So, they can keep beating on me emotionally, energetically." Then, I woke up and went, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's only half the equation. The other half is I gotta draw a line in the sand and say, 'This is the level of respect that I request out of human beings that are in my presence.'" I tell people constantly, you don't have to worry about knowing where you stand with Sean. I'll let you know.

Mike:                       Right. So, let's say the person who is an abusive situation, since we went there, is in an abusive situation and has serious, physical fear. There is actual danger to their life. So there is the separation of, "Geez, if I say those words, they could kill me in the next hour." And there is it, that at least I know those words to be true to me, that maybe I am not at a place that I can verbally say those words right now. But I know them to be true to me. Is that the key there.

Sean:                       Yeah, and it's deeper than that, which is, it starts within you first. Then, you have to-

Mike:                       Yeah, it's starting to know that I deserve to be treated a certain way. We're not saying any blame at all on the abuse. You're responding to, it starts with me knowing I deserve to be respected.

Sean:                       We're talking about your own worth and value.

Mike:                       Right. Correct.

Sean:                       That starts within you, and then, if you are in that toxic place, let's talk about that. I've been in toxic places. Sometimes it takes a while to plan your escape and you need to be loving toward yourself in the process. It's kind of like the movie Shawshank Redemption. It took him a long time to chip away at that wall, and let the little rocks out in the yard. Sometimes, that's what people need to do. Now, sometimes it's so dangerous that they've gotta figure out a way to get out there faster.

Sean:                       Neither you nor I are in any of these people's shoes. So, we're not saying we have 100% understanding of them. However, we have 100% appreciation and acknowledgement of the pain they're in. I personally believe that negativity ... All violence is, is negativity that's just not been dealt with over time, and then it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. Usually nobody starts out violent. It's built up over time.

Sean:                       Now, when you meet somebody who is verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually, intellectually, whatever it may be, manipulative and abusive, that was a stew that they've been cooking in for a long time. That doesn't make it right, but what I have learned in working with these people as a therapist is, some of the best things that you can do is know that you need to keep yourself away from toxic people, toxic energy, toxic places. Sometimes, it may take you time to plan your escape, but you better have a plan. You better know how you're going to get out of something that is dangerous, either physically, emotionally, any of those other levels. I will tell you, it takes courage to leave sometime that you fear.

Mike:                       Absolutely.

Sean:                       You fear for your life. It's not even just ... The fear for your life is something that's so clear for people to see, but what about people who are being abused spiritually, energetically, emotionally? They don't leave scars. Mean words don't leave physical scars on the body for the police to see, and so that's sometimes just as hard, if not harder, to be like, "Wow, I need to get away. This is killing my soul. This is draining me."

Sean:                       What it really comes down to, for me and what I've experienced, speaking only for myself, is "What will you tolerate?" What are you ... And not tolerate, what do you want from life? What do you want from other people, in terms of, what standard are you willing to hold. Mindy would've never entered into a relationship with somebody that was physically abusive because the moment somebody was even slightly degraded to my wife, she would have been gone in a conversation. She would've never given them a second date, never respond to their calls, because she has such a high threshold bar of how she will be treated.

Mike:                       Right. Now, I wanna be clear. If someone's listening, we're not implying because you don't, you weren't taught that far, that it's your fault, like Mindy did it right, and you did it wrong. It's a matter of, "No, can I shift now? Can I shift the paradigm to know I always deserve to be treated with that dignity? With that respect? I can choose it. This roller coaster doesn't have to exist forever. There's a point I can choose to get off, that's the planned escape. There's a point because I deserve to be treated." So, how do you help somebody, and we're getting towards the end here, I know it's tough to do quickly. In 30 seconds to one minute, what's a gift you can give someone to help them realize their value?

Sean:                       Yeah, it's what Mindy had to do and anybody would have to do to get to that level. You have to have impeccable self-care. If you take care of your mind, your body, your spirit. You are exercising to pull out the toxins, you are journaling to acknowledge your own feelings, you're meditating and praying, you're surrounding yourself with empowering people, you're reading empowering messages, you're listening to programs like this, you are continuing to put yourself in empowering environments. It makes it easier and easier to head in the right direction because if you wanna respect yourself, then you have to take care of yourself. You wouldn't trust a nurse or a doctor that didn't take good care of you. You have to be the great person first, to take care of yourself first, to get the strength to know what you deserve.

Mike:                       Love it. Thank you, Sean. Now, for all of our listeners, your book is Get Off Your But. It's an awesome book. And people, it's not just talking about the physical butt, it's talking about the "But, I would, but..." and it's sensational-

Sean:                       B-U-T, yeah.

Mike:                       Yeah. It's sensational. In addition to your own book, what's a book that you think is a game changer for people's lives, that had a major impression, impact on your life?

Sean:                       I would say The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Mike:                       Awesome book. Yeah, yeah. So, we'll have that link for everyone listening. Sean, you know how much I love you. Thank you so much for sharing with everybody on today's show.

Sean:                       Absolutely.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datasafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:20]

Heath Phillips joined the Navy when he was 17 years old. He grew up in a military style family; his father was in the Army and had Uncles that served in Vietnam.  Heath's stepfather was also in the Army.  Being in the Military was all he ever wanted; he wanted to serve his country.  At the time in 1988 the only branch that would him at his age with a GED was the Navy.  On May 3 1988, exactly one week after his 17th birthday Heath was in boot camp and stationed in Orlando, Florida. From the start it was everything he was told about from his family.  He was treated excellent; he even goes on to say "I was kinda babied by the platoon C144" most likely because of his age.  Heath was treated like family; everyone was willing to look out for the "kid" (his nickname). Upon graduation Heath was then stationed in Meridian, Miss.  He went to school to become a Ships Serviceman. Once again, he was treated like a family member.  Upon leaving Meridian, Miss. Heath went home to visit his Mom, Dad and stepfamily where everyone was so proud. 

 

Heath reported to the USS Butte AE 27 on Labor Day weekend per his orders. Upon arriving to the ship he was greeted to a dirty looking ship which was nothing like he imagined.  A group of shipmates where leaving the ship and invited Heath to come hang out with them for the weekend. Heath went with them to a hotel in New York City.  Heath had two drinks and really wasn’t much of a drinker and fell asleep.  He woke up with his cloths clothes pulled down and guys doing "stuff" to him such as guys masturbating on my face; instantly he was terrified.  Crying, he locked himself in the bathroom. His shipmates told him they were only kidding around, it was an initiation and they all went through it.  Heath's report of the assault only brought more assaults. After returning to the Butte, he told a senior leader what had happened, and was told he was lying.  The assaults just escalated from there; it turned into game to the perpetrators.  Heath was terrorized by constant harassment to include pulling him out of bed and rubbing their genitals in his face; but he was always called a liar. 

 

Heath Phillips is a Military Sexual Assault survivor and a Public speaker on the topic of (MST - Military Sexual Trauma) and also speaks on Bystander Intervention. 

 

Heath is originally from Protect Our Defenders, an organization that honors, supports and gives a voice to the brave women and men in uniform who have been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members.   Heath Phillips has chosen to be a speaker in order to relay his story, the effects it has had on him, the obstacles he had/has to overcome, and most importantly educate our Soldiers in regards to the damage sexual assault and hazing does to anyone (to include males). 

  

 

 

 

or at:

 

WATCH THE RAW VIDEO OF THE INTERVIEW AT:
https://youtu.be/R45OjmqJ4lE

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike Domitrz:                      Welcome to the Respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike Domitrz:                      This weeks special guest is Heath Phillips. Now if you haven't heard of Heath, or you haven't met Heath before, Heath is a military sexual assault survivor and a public speaker on the topic of MST. MST is military sexual trauma. He also speaks on bi standard intervention. Now Heath is originally from Protect Our Defenders, an organization that honors, supports, and gives a voice to the brave women and men in uniform who've been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members. Heath has chosen to be a speaker in order to relay his story, the effects it has had on him, the obstacles he has had and has to overcome, and most importantly to educate our soldiers in regards to the damage sexual assault and hazing does to anyone, including males. So Heath, I want to thank you very much for joining us.

Heath Phillips:                    All right, thank you. I appreciate you for allowing to be on this.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely, and your story is so powerful that I don't want to be the one trying to tell this on your behalf. I'd like to start with you being able to tell it, so how did you get to where you are today, Heath?

Heath Phillips:                    The BS with you. When I got discharged I was already an alcoholic. I was already drinking heavily. I was 18. I spent close to 20 years just spiraling downhill, worse and worse and worse. It came to the point where it was either going to commit suicide or get better, and final straw was believe it or not, the date is still embedded in my brain. February 3rd, 2009. Driving home, I was to the point where I was so drunk I had to drive with one eye, and there's just way too many roads. And I wanted to die. And today I still thank God that somehow I blanked out from that point to getting home, and that was when reality actually set in. That I needed help.

Heath Phillips:                    I cried for the first time in 20 years. I dumped everything that I had out in my home that was alcohol related. Any type of narcotics, drugs, anything. I even got rid of my cigarettes the same day. And from that forward I have actually been drug, alcohol, and cigarette free. And no, I've never done AA, any of them exciting things that people do. My AA is not wanting to be where I was, and that's kind of what lit a fire in me to not just better myself, but to be a better father, a better figurehead, just a better person in general. And that's kind of how I started to move forward.

Mike Domitrz:                      How much of a time gap was there from being discharged to you having that moment in 2009?

Heath Phillips:                    I got discharged July 26th of 1989. My first day of sobriety was February 4th of 2009. So it was just under a 20 year gap of being discharged to when I became ... my first day of sobriety.

Mike Domitrz:                      All right, and people listening might have caught earlier that you said, "When I was just discharged at 19." They might be thinking in their mind well he couldn't have been in that long, so what-

Heath Phillips:                    I said I was discharged at 18.

Mike Domitrz:                      At 18. Okay.

Heath Phillips:                    I joined at 17.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right so, so a year or so roughly, so now that's got people thinking, "Okay, wow, a lot must have happened in that year for that to have occurred." But during those 20 years, were you addressing that or is that the masking of the alcohol and the drugs?

Heath Phillips:                    I tried to. Due to the discharge that I had, I had an other than honorable. The VA would not help me, period. So I had a hard time keeping employment due to my alcoholism. I didn't know I had post traumatic stress disorder. I didn't know why I couldn't be near men. I couldn't handle being near it. The anxiety levels, you know, I, constant nightmares. But I didn't know what was wrong. So what I did was I just drank. That was how I coped. So there was like no help for me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right, you were not ... The sexual violence was not being addressed because you weren't that deep in yet to figure out what was causing the drinking and the drugs because you didn't get the support you needed to get on that journey.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and so because of how you were discharged, even though you were a survivor, because of what you were given, the form of discharge you were given, there was no support available to you. So now you're alone, and the alcohol and the drugs was coping, if I'm understanding correctly?

Heath Phillips:                    That's how I cope. That's how I stopped.

Mike Domitrz:                      So then, then you clear the house. I mean that's a ... So then you clear the house of all the alcohol, everything, and say, "I'm going to change." What gets you into the process of having the self awareness, the discovery of where's the pain that caused all this in the first place?

Heath Phillips:                    Believe it or not Google. I got to give Google props. So I started Googling things because I didn't know what was wrong. I didn't know why I was having nightmares, flashbacks, and I didn't know what was causing this. So I started Googling kind of like what happened to me in the military, and started reading papers because while I was in, there was a congressional investigation done on my case. And one of the mental health people wrote that I had post traumatic stress disorder. So my command had already, was aware that I had this. So I tried finding out what everything meant, and then I started finding out that I was not the only rape victim or survivor or whatever you want to call it, from the military.

Heath Phillips:                    And I started reaching out, and I started meeting more survivors, and that's when my curiosity started getting the better of me because they were going through what I was going through. So I was like how do we fix this? How do we help each other? Then things just kept moving forward and forward, and that's when Protect Our Defenders started to launch. And I did the video with them. In 2011, we met in Washington DC, a whole group of survivors, myself included. And outside of, I'm kind of red neckish, you know, I live in a country so I'm not used to the suits, and that attire. So I show up in Washington DC. I'm wearing jeans, flannel shirt untucked, and we go to the Capitol Hill, and we're at the press box, and everyone's in suits. I'm dressed all down, but they didn't care.

Heath Phillips:                    They brought me on stage as the men's survivor. Kindest woman, Jackie Spear, was introducing a sexual assault bill at the time called Stop Act. Protect Our Defenders launched their name that day, and nobody cared. It was ... The way I explain it, is, it's a lot like these six guys did all these horrific things to me. That's why I had a bad, like an anger towards the military for allowing it to happen. Allowing to kick me out, but when I met these other survivors, there was like no animosity towards them because they were in the military. It was vulnerable. Like a kinmanship, and I mean still today, we all talk. We do our own things, but we still all talk. And it was like having that family that I never had because I lost a lot in that 20 year bad part of my life. But it was just like a unity that nobody could understand. It was a unity that I should have had when I was in the military with my fellow shipmates.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and you talk about that. You talk about that before the hazing. Because that, for those listening, the form of sexual assault that you experienced was very much what some would call a hazing form of sexual assault. It was done by a group, as a form of initiation to you. Prior to that though because that was when you started actually serving on your first ship. Prior to that you were loving the military, from what you've shared. You felt that brotherhood that you're talking about right now.

Heath Phillips:                    Yeah, yeah. I'm an Army brat so I kind of grew up in the military culture, and it's something my dad never spoke about because my dad, mister tough guy, you know, but there's nothing I knew would happen. Boot camp was just, I mean it was a family. It was exactly what my family talked about. My commander was my dad, kinda like, and these guys were my shipmates were like my brothers. And we had each other's back. It was a ... probably one of the tightest units I've ever seen, and it was boot camp. And it was kind of incredible because at 17, that was my first initiation into the military, was boot camp. And seeing how tight knit, everybody had my back, I had their back, and then going to a ship and your first day within hours you're being sexually assaulted. It was like what just happened? It was like reading Cinderella and happened into at a Freddy Kruger movie. So it was just mind blowing.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and what's amazing is you did report.

Heath Phillips:                    That's that.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and multiple times. What was the response you were getting?

Heath Phillips:                    My very first time I reported. I'll never forget the look on Master Arm's face. It was like dumbfounded, and then it was disgusted, and then he immediately called me a liar. And then he wanted to know how old I was. I was like, "I'm 17." He says, "Oh," he goes, "You must be a mama's boy. So you're homesick. That's why you're saying these things." I'm like, I was baffled, I was like, "No." For all I was homesick, you know, I wasn't homesick. And I was like, "No, I'm not lying. This happened." And it was just-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Heath Phillips:                    ... it's like, "No, I'm not lying, this happened." And it was just like non-stop "You're a liar, you're a liar, you're a liar." 49 days before I first snapped, 49 days of reporting this ... it was always the same result "You're a liar, you're a liar, where's your proof? Doesn't happen."

Mike Domitrz:                      Do you think, Heath, that they didn't want to believe it was happening, but knew it was happening? And by calling you a liar was their way of covering up? Or do you think they honestly didn't believe this was possible?

Heath Phillips:                    They knew. Back then I didn't know they knew, but they knew.

Heath Phillips:                    I mean, on the 49th day, when I tried hanging myself, Chief [inaudible 00:11:45] officer brings me down, and he smacked me in my face, told me I needed to man up and fight for myself, basically. It kind of clicked, like "He knows. He doesn't even look at my birthing area, and he knows."

Heath Phillips:                    Two of my attackers, they had 17 other victims. So it's not like it wasn't a known thing, it's just nobody cared. They would rather avoid the situation and hide from it, than have to admit that this really happens. And to me that's very sickening.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely. And this isn't just a military thing, we've seen this happen throughout many different levels of our culture, where people cover up instead of wanting to deal with the reality of what's going on in their organization, their community, their institution. We see this happen in many different levels.

Mike Domitrz:                      Since that time, since 11, you've started speaking out, and what a lot of people don't realize, you and I know, because we speak on military installations. There's an image out there that the military's still operating the way it's always operated, the way it was operating 20 years ago, 10 years, and no one cares about this topic, and everybody's trying to cover it up. The reality is, yeah when you have hundreds of thousands of people in an organization, there is still sexual violence, absolutely. There are still some that are working to cover it up.

Mike Domitrz:                      At the same time, there are very passionate professionals out there, many.

Heath Phillips:                    Many.

Mike Domitrz:                      Who are working hard in the military to stop this from ever happening to another human being again. And in fact, you and I get to work with the majority of people who have that passion, have that fire. But I want you to be able to speak to that. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's what I see, where I'm traveling the world working the military. Do you feel the same, or do you think "No, we don't have enough people ..." I mean, we want more, obviously.

Heath Phillips:                    I'll be honest with you, it has come a long way. Phenomenal. If I would have reported this now, [inaudible 00:13:57], here and now and this is happening to me, so many different options that can help me. I can be transferred, I can get moved, this person get transferred ... You will have cover-ups, that's a gimme, but the cover-ups now are nothing compared to what they were 20 years ago. 'Cause this is more of an eggshell issue, and I'll be honest with you, I speak for the SHARP Divisions, Sexual Harassment Assault Response Programs, and these people are so dedicated. I'll be honest with you, it sucks that we have to have these programs, but I'm glad that we do, because now there's somebody to actually help a victim, where, like in my case, there's nothing. The alcohol is what helped me.

Heath Phillips:                    They also have a program where now they're talking about bystander intervention, which is something that I touch on, because for me it's a personal issue, because being on-board my ship and not having one person ever extend the hand out to help me ... That's just as harmful to me as when I was being assaulted.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and what a lot of people don't realize is today you have in the SHARP program now, if it's Navy it would be called SAPER, but you have victim advocates, and you have a sark, and some of those people can be civilians, some of those people can be active duty, but there are very specific roles they play that guarantee confidentiality unless you want to pursue the case in a Judicial format, and that would be called an unrestricted. But you can go restrict it and have a one-on-one conversation that stays completely confidential, and a lot of people just don't realize this, and at the time, in nine, even if that existed, they weren't doing the training to teach you that existed, or what was available to you. Where now they have to go through training on a regular.

Mike Domitrz:                      I always tell people, they think "Oh colleges are better at this than the military." No, no, no, no, no. Colleges might hear about this at orientation, the military has to go through this training every year of their career, so they know all the resources that are available.

Heath Phillips:                    And sometimes somebody has to do it twice a year.

Mike Domitrz:                      That's right.

Heath Phillips:                    Even more beneficial.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and when it gets really beneficial is when they realize installations, regions, department of defense, realizes just doing our three hour mandated department of defense training is not enough. We need to bring people like Heath in, we need to bring ... that's why we get to do the work we do, because installations realized we need outsiders with unique perspectives, not just people from within.

Mike Domitrz:                      Now you also are an outsider, but you come from within.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes. And I also bring something different than Power Point. Yesterday I spoke at Fort [inaudible 00:16:56] with victim advocates. I do that monthly, I go and speak to their classes, and I give them a different perspective, 'cause now it's personal.

Heath Phillips:                    I think with any based installation DOD, even the Pentagon would be able to benefit from people like you and I coming in, because we make it personal, we make it not the generic form that you're seeing from their Power Points and paperwork. We bring in our whole entire ... everything, and they're like "Oh, shoot. Wow." They don't realize all the things that really happen.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      So what do you say to the person listening who maybe is old school military? And I know you've gotten this push ... I'm guessing you've gotten this pushback, 'cause I certainly get it in comments section of articles on my work, the trollers of what's happened to our military that they're worrying about this stuff instead of killing the enemy? How do you react to that, do you see that stuff, or do you just blow it off? How do you view that when you see that kind of trolling?

Heath Phillips:                    See, I get that trolling occasionally. Like Senator [inaudible 00:18:10] working on the Military Justice Improvement Act, which I'm on the fence with it, I see both sides, so-

Mike Domitrz:                      Can we pause and help people understand the both sides, 'cause you and I know the act, but a lot of people don't. I believe you're specifically referring to whether these should all be handled civilian, or they should be handled at the military level. Because what happens now is in the end, it's a military justice.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      And even if civilians are involved, it goes through military justice. Joe Miranda's saying "Hey no, we've got to take that element out of it", but then leadership says "Whoa, whoa, whoa, that breaks down the whole military environment." And that's why you're saying I see both sides.

Heath Phillips:                    I think what bothers me is ... for one, it's politics. But for two, if we take this away from the command, what are we going to take away next? That's how I look at it.

Heath Phillips:                    SHARP is not perfect, but, like anything else, once you start getting the wheels spinning, and you get all the bugs, and you figure out everything, that's how you start making things better. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying it's right, it's just ... that's how I see it. They want me on-board with them, and it's kind of hard to get on board with you're on the fence, so it's like sell it to me. And so far I haven't been sold, so-

Mike Domitrz:                      You know what, I love, Heath, that you're addressing this, and you're sharing your authentic view, because our show's all about respect.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      And so to pressure someone into a belief they don't have is not respectful.

Mike Domitrz:                      Now to educate somebody to shift their beliefs, that's a different discussion. That's because they make the choice based on education. But to say we all must feel this way, because we all come from a like-minded situation ... no, we're still going to be unique in this. I think that's what's so important to your discussion is ... a lot of people "Well, jeez, as a military survivor, of course we're going to say civilian, it should all be civilian, especially the way you were treated." And yet you're going "Wait, I still have ... in understanding the military system that I honor and I respect," and I think that's probably, for some, surprising.

Heath Phillips:                    Yeah. That's where I get my lovely ... I call them zombies, you call them trolls, that's where I get them. They're like "What do you mean you're not on-board? We're survivors! We stick together!" Yeah, we're supposed to stick together, but I'm one of the few survivors that actually goes on bases, I'm one of the few survivors that actually works with DOD, so I am the eyes that sees the change that's starting to happen. Culture changes can be probably the hardest thing to ever do in this world, it takes time, but it's just like inventions. How did it take us to decide we wanted to use the wheel? It takes time.

Heath Phillips:                    To implement a bill to immediately destroy something that's been going on for years in a chain of command, you really have to weigh the pros and the cons. And that's why I said I see both sides, that's why I'm on the fence, because ... maybe if you word it differently, maybe if you make it so they work together? Then yes. But to just take something straight away from a commander kind of bothers me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Sure. I respect it, 'cause you understand the hierarchy you worked in, and you grew up in it, too. And so that brings a different perspective, you grew up in a family-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Mike Domitrz:                      You grew up in it too-

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      ... and so that brings a different perspective. You grew up in a family environment of military and so that has an impact too. What are the ways that you feel ... Obviously all sexual violence is a lack of someone being treated with respect and this show is all about respect.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      There's a complete lack of it. So what do you think is the number one connection you make when you're sharing with people, of anyone to try to help them understand the importance of respect and dignity and how that lacks when this behavior takes place?

Heath Phillips:                    Well, I'll be honest with you, I have this method that I've been using for the last year. I don't do it at every event that I do. But I share my experiences, what happened to me. Then at the end I turn it around and I ask everybody to close her eyes, the whole audience close their eyes. Then I start doing this reverse psychology gizmo that I once learned, and I ask them, "You guys heard everything I said. Now start putting that into feelings. You're in the military. What if this was your mom and dad that came and talked to you? Process how you would start feeling." Then I throw it out, "What if it was your brother or sister?" If I got an older crowd, I'll ask them, "Well, what if this was your son or your daughter that came and talked to you about this?"

Heath Phillips:                    Then my last thing I always say, "And better yet, what if this was you? What if this was you up here sharing this? How would you feel? How would you want things to change? What would your response be?" I'll be honest with you, I've had grown men cry. I didn't think I would ever get that effect, but I have. Then I asked them to open their eyes and then I start interacting with them. I'm like, "Hey, how would you feel? What would you want different?" I think that goes a long way because the answers you start getting back is like, "Well, I'd want my command to help me. I would want them to listen. I would want," as you're saying, "the same respect that I should be getting." It's just amazing how differently they are when I do that.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. It humanizes.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      It totally humanizes the discussion.

Heath Phillips:                    Especially when you know, I nail them when they're half asleep-

Mike Domitrz:                      Well I think that's what people don't realize. You know someone-

Heath Phillips:                    ... because they don't [crosstalk 00:24:31]. They fall asleep-

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. That's what people don't realize is that some people are coming to these planning to sleep because they think they've heard it all before. And when I say that, I don't want people listening thinking all. You know it could be two out of a hundred, but when you're presenting you notice two people sleeping out of a hundred.

Heath Phillips:                    I call myself an a-hole on this, but if I'm spending my time coming up there, and it's not pinpointing them to get them in trouble. In mids, because I walk, I can't stand at the podium. I walk. I'll point and say, "Hey you, where are you from?" Just to give a point so that, "Hey, give me some respect. I'm up here doing this."

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. Well and that's just it and that's what people don't-

Heath Phillips:                    I do that all the time.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and people don't realize that. People go, "Oh you're picking on them." I'm not picking on them. I'm engaging. It's my job to impact as many people as possible in that room. So if I see you're not engaging, it's my job to engage you. Now, that doesn't mean you're going to like me or you're going to want to listen to me, but I have to at least attempt the engagement and that's what I love what you're describing. You're making sure that you're engaging them, which is actually respecting them, right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      Because I'm going to make sure your time is valuable in here. You came in here. I want to make this an amazing experience ideally for you.

Heath Phillips:                    And also I don't want to see them like get [PT'd 00:25:51] outside because they're caught sleeping.

Mike Domitrz:                      That's right. Because that will, for those who aren't aware what will happen is-

Heath Phillips:                    I got, there are six unfortunately. Sometimes it's unfortunate, but you know I got there six, and in different directions. I'll give you an example. I spoke at Fort Leonard Wood this year and the guy right in the front role was nodding and nodding. I was trying to ignore him because I didn't want to make him get in trouble. So what I did is, I asked a question of the lady behind him, but I bumped into his leg. That way he kind of opened up his eyes and then I stopped talking and I said, "Oh, and let me ask you this." He came up and thanked me afterwards. He just said, "Oh," he said, "I really didn't want to do pushups today." You know like, "It's cool, man."

Mike Domitrz:                      And to be fair, you and I know this, our listeners might not realize, sometimes I go into this training after a full workload and I mean a heavy physically exhausting work load and this is the end of the day.

Heath Phillips:                    Not only that, but some of these guys haven't sat all day.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right.

Heath Phillips:                    You know they're out all day long, rucking it or something and then they're coming in and the air's on because I'm there to speak so they don't want it hot for me. I don't know, but so now they're in a comfortable area. So I understand because I remember bootcamp and I remember rucking all day and then sitting down in class going, "Ahhh," you know.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. What do you think is the biggest misconception about military sexual trauma?

Heath Phillips:                    That only happens to women. I think that is the biggest misconception out there. Period.

Mike Domitrz:                      What do you think is the biggest misconception about the military in this topic?

Heath Phillips:                    That they don't care, because I know they do.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah.

Heath Phillips:                    I see it when I go to the bases. I know they care.

Mike Domitrz:                      They do, they do.

Heath Phillips:                    I don't go for the challenge coin. I don't go for their certificates. I go and Fort Bliss their general is like so strict on sexual assault.

Mike Domitrz:                      Were you there recently?

Heath Phillips:                    I was, I spoke there last year.

Mike Domitrz:                      Okay. Yeah. I know who you're talking about. So that's it. Yes.

Heath Phillips:                    He is like, "That's not just happening in my command," and I'm like, "Whoa. Wow." He's strict. So you know, that I respect.

Mike Domitrz:                      Well, the ones who show fire change the game. Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      When you have leadership that says ... Now like in that situation, "I'm not going to allow this in my command, but I'm also going to support survivors if it does happen." Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      And shows that versus the ones that goes, "All right, let's get through this. We got to get through it." That's not leadership. That's towing the line to follow the requirements versus-

Heath Phillips:                    [crosstalk 00:28:52] few of them events.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yup. You'll meet them. They sometimes support you coming in because then they don't have to address it. Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      So you get two different kinds of leadership. But when you get the leader who's fired up you're like, "I want to keep working with you because you're going to keep reinforcing the right messages and that's so important." So I'm glad you brought that up. This misconception that nobody cares in the military when there's thousands, I mean literally thousands of people in the military who care deeply about [crosstalk 00:29:19].

Heath Phillips:                    Well look at how large the military is. I think that's another misconception that people have. The military is huge. So to actually keep an eye on every single person is never going to happen. We're overseas. We're inland or on the seas. We're in the air. So how can a commander keep an eye? Yes, it trickles down to the lower levels but-

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. That's where bystander intervention comes in. You talk about that and we talk about that because then you get it down to the individuals all looking out for each other, which is so important

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      Heath, you've been amazing. Fantastic.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you so much for having me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you for everything you do.

Mike Domitrz:                      Oh. Like you we do this because we love what we're doing.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you, Mike.

Mike Domitrz:                      Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org, and remember you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:27]

 

 

 

www.survjustice.org 

 

 

 

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

 

Mike:                       Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the U.S. military create a culture of respect. Respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike:                       This week's guest is Laura Dunn, and her track record is amazing. I want to give you a little bit of background on Laura. She advances victims rights through legislative and policy efforts, as well as direct representation of survivors in campus, criminal, and civil systems.

Mike:                       As a nationally recognized victim turned victim rights attorney and social entrepreneur, her work's been featured on NPR, National Public Radio, People Magazine, Forbes, The National Blog Journal, The New York Times, and many more.

Mike:                       Some of this I'm going to save for our discussion because she's done so much, and the bio here, it's incredible, but as a highlight, for example, she's obviously an attorney now, representing cases with SURVJUSTICE, S-U-R-V-J-U-S-T-I-C-E. They are the only national non-profit representing victims of campus sexual violence in hearings across country, and currently the lead plaintiff in a pending federal lawsuit against the current administration over Title IX.

Mike:                       Her work has received awards and recognitions, including the 2015 Echoing Green Global Fellowship, the 2016 Benjamin Cardin Public Service Award, the 2017 Special Courage Award for the U.S. Department of Justice's Office for Victims of Crime, and the 2018 TED Fellowship, so thank you so much for joining us, Laura.

Laura:                     Thanks for having me on.

Mike:                       Absolutely, and to get right into it here, you know, the show's all about respect. How did you come to the place where you are today, doing the work you're doing?

Laura:                     That's a great question. Unfortunately, like too many people, I had a negative experience in college. I had two men that I knew and trusted from being on the same sports team with me, and they made a decision to sexually harm me when I had been drinking and was unable to either consent or defend myself, so because of this unfortunate experience with sexual violence, I became an advocate first in trying to fight for myself, but I realized that I was fighting for many more. It is now my career.

Laura:                     I did found SURVJUSTICE. I'm no longer there, I've moved on and transitioned. I'm at the Fierberg National Law Group, where I continue to do litigation, not just for sexual assault survivors, but all survivors of campus crime, including gun violence and hazing.

Mike:                       Oh, okay, and so there, when you say representing survivors, for those who aren't aware, so survivor on campus comes forward, they file a complaint, at what point is there a need for someone to reach out to an attorney such as yourself to be represented?

Laura:                     It's a wonderful question. I think there's a very big norm in our society that if you're accused of something, you right away get an attorney, get advice, and you're very cautious and careful. There is this belief that if you're a victim, that you can just access the process, and it'll work perfectly, and you'll be fine. Unfortunately, so many survivors find out that systems that are meant to protect them don't always do that, so campuses aren't always acting in the best interest of students who are victimized. Law enforcement, campus security, other organizations sometimes try to push away survivors and their voices, so it's fully fine to make that initial report and to go and right away try to get organizations and institutions to support you if that's their role, but if you're skeptical that that will occur, if you're already getting signs that there isn't support, I would actually contact an attorney or an advocate immediately because the moment you start making a complaint, things can either go really well, or unfortunately, sometimes in the cases I see, they go really poorly from square one.

Mike:                       Yeah, and when we're traveling the world talking about this, we always tell [inaudible 00:03:53], in reaching out to a local advocate, a local crisis center, who has been down this road with other survivors, who knows the possibilities of support that are available to you, and when somebody's showing red flags in that system, the troubles there, is helpful to at least help you understand that, no, that's not okay, what they just said to you, or what they just asked you, and you do deserve to be represented and supported. I think it's wonderful. I think a lot of times people think, 'Oh, a student goes forward, the system failed them, nothing they can do.' For them to hear from you, no, there's people like you out there, who are saying, "We can represent you, we can fight for you because you deserve that."

Laura:                     Absolutely, and we see so many cases where if we had gotten involved a little earlier ... I would say this all the time at SURVJUSTICE, if someone had just called us first, it would be a different game. If you're in a situation where you're not getting academic support, there's no safety measured, they're encouraging you to take a medical leave, get off campus, you definitely need to be making a call.

Laura:                     Advocates can be very helpful, but sometimes real action is needed. Attorneys and advocated alike can offer confidentiality and privilege, which is very important to protect your privacy, and getting information about your rights, and then starting to advance them.

Mike:                       Yeah, and you and I know that due to the media coverage of Title IX, a lot of people go, "Well, why is this necessary? I mean, Title IX is tilted to survivors, and if they come forward, everybody's going to believe them, and the system's going to protect them. I mean, this whole Title IX thing, that's all it does. In fact, it's slanted against people who are accused." These are the comments we hear in the media all the time.

Mike:                       Can you explain the reality of actually how this works on many campuses? There are campuses where it's wonderful, and it's supportive, but this is not always the case.

Laura:                     Yeah, I definitely think it's important to recognize that in the last decade there's been a shift, right. Back in 2010, the Center for Public Integrity, National Public Radio, really exposed campus sexual assault for the first time through an investigative series, and showed the opposite of all the comments you were just saying, that actually victims weren't being supported, weren't being believed, and even if the rare case, where someone was like, "Yes, you were in fact harmed. We're going to give the consequence to the person who harmed you," it was meaningless. It was writing essays about how not to rape someone, and that was the only consequence. It was watching videos, again, from student orientation, for a second time, or having a summer suspension.

Laura:                     Really, the media dialogue, at first, was exposing how survivors are mistreated. There's obviously been a backlash, people who represent those who are accused saying, "This is unfair," and in my opinion, I'm obviously a victim's rights attorney, so you can obviously say that I'm biased towards my side, I think people just aren't used to what accountability looks like. Accountability does mean someone is found responsible through an appropriate process for sexual violence, and they're not being favored and catered to, and allowed to continue threatening, or otherwise harassing someone in the interim.

Laura:                     You know, there's a lot of accusations on both sides, and really, it's important to remember what Title IX is. It is a federal civil right that protects any person, not just men, not just women, any person from discrimination on the basis of sex, and that includes in the form of sexual harassment and sexual violence. This is on the campus level, and at the civil level, you can also go to court and force it.

Laura:                     That's very different than the criminal level, which has a whole different process enshrined in the constitution. The campus and civil level are lower level means of legal advocacy, and of course, can give meaningful results to survivors, such as academic accommodations and support, but at the end of the day, are trying to make sure someone who is harmed by sexual violence can continue to access their education on campus free from any hostility created by someone who's accused of perpetrating against them until there has been an ultimate finding whether or not that did occur.

Laura:                     I hope that answered your question.

Mike:                       Absolutely.

Mike:                       Often people are saying, "Hey, why isn't this" ... There's been a few states that have tried to, and one that did put it through, that have tried to say, "This should all be criminal, this should not be dealt with by schools. This should only be dealt with by the court systems and the judicial system." Many of us who know this work knows that that could highly deter survivors from coming forward in the first place. Can you explain what the problem is with that, with this idea that the moment a campus knows about a case, it should all be handed over to the police, to the judicial system of the authorities outside of the campus environment?

Laura:                     Yeah. What I always do, even in going into legal settings such as the American Bar Association Taskforce I've been on, or the American Law Institute, when we were debating different polices and procedures to put forward on a national level, even with attorneys, they say, "Okay, we need to back up. Let's not even think about sexual assault, let's just think of a physical assault."

Laura:                     You're a student, you're physically assaulted by another student. Let's say you're drunk at a bar, so you get punched. You, of course, can go to the police, but that's not your only option. You can also sue the person in civil court that just punched you. You can also just go to the campus level and say, "I want them removed because they're an unsafe student, and they're going to impede my access to education," or you could do all three. That's true of many scenarios.

Laura:                     Any type of crime, not just sexual crimes, allow you to go campus, criminal, or civil. You can pick, you can choose, you can do one after another, you can do them all at the same time. We have more than one legal remedy for harm in our society, and that's on purpose because there are many different ways that people can advance their rights and interests. They don't only have to rely on police, and of course, we know that the criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, which is very different than the civil and campus standard of preponderance of the evidence. It is a different burden, it is a different ballgame, and that's because criminal is removing someone from society, imprisoning them often, fines in some places depending on the type of violence, potentially even death, so very serious consequences call for very serious due process and highly protective measures.

Laura:                     On the campus, you don't have a right to be in college. You don't. It's privilege. A college can choose you, or not choose you. You have no rights to get in. Once you are in, your rights are limited to stay there, especially if you have, in fact, violated any of their policies and procedures on students.

Laura:                     So, we're at a very different level with the lower standard of proof, and again, it's very important hat survivors have different options; campus, criminal, and civil, because they might need different things. One survivor may need all those damages from a civil case to get medical treatment in the future. Another one may want to keep the campus safe, and have that person removed for a criminal process from society. Another person may say, "You know what, I just need to continue my access to education," so they need to go elsewhere.

Laura:                     Lots of different options, lots of different remedies. There is no one size fits all, and there is not just one option for survivors.

Mike:                       I'm so glad you brought up the different standards because this is so important. I think a lot of people forget that the campus has the right of who they want to have on their campus, and so often people go, "You can't convict them." It's not whether they can convict them, it's whether they have the right to say, "I don't want that student as part of our community. We have that right, and whether we're a public or private institution, we actually have that right because we accepted them in. They had to apply to get in, they were not forced to us. We get to choose."

Laura:                     You can be removed for underage drinking on college campus, right.

Mike:                       Right. That's right.

Laura:                     [inaudible 00:10:57] over something that I would consider a less serious than committing sexual harassment or assault against someone.

Mike:                       Do you think-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Laura:                     ... serious in committing sexual harassment or assaulting someone.

Mike:                       Do you think the push back that's happening, that people try to argue this is going to too far of an extreme now, do you think this is out of a fear that adults look back and go, "Well I could have been kicked out for this," or, "I could have been in this?" So there's a subconscious level of I'm gonna push back because this goes against what I did back in the day. This would force me to look in the mirror and go, "I didn't always do everything right according to these standards." And are you saying that I'm this person, this perpetrator or whatever? Well I'm not, so this is crazy. This is going extreme. Is that what's happening?

Laura:                     I think there are three main drivers of this idea that there's a frenzy on campus and it's unfair to accuse. I think one driver is very much political, president Obama of course advanced title nine, listened to a bunch of student activism that was going on all across the country. There's tons of rallies, tons of protests, and tons of timeline complaints. We went from 30 to 300. So there was a big demand. The president, at that time, listened. And of course in certain circles he's not very popular and there has been a backlash within America with the new president. And so some of it is destroying that legacy, undoing everything that he has done. A different driver-

Mike:                       Can we pause? I wanna pause on that one, because I think it's so important. You remember when the first 30 were listed? When it came out in the news that here were the first, I don't even know if it was 30. It might have been like 19, but here ... I think it might actually be higher like 50 or 60, I just remember the first list of universities that were listed and people were like, "Oh my gosh, you are one of the 60," and those of us in the field were like, "Give this another six months to a year, because you're gonna see a lot of schools pop up on there." Because people don't realize what a problem this was. What they saw was the first list of people of offenses and the universities that were named, and what those ... Can you believe them? And I was sitting there going, "Yeah, but we're way too small list right now. This list should be way more comprehensive," because what it means is that somebody on that campus had support to come forward and file this in some way or form.

Laura:                     Yes.

Mike:                       I don't think schools should go, "Oh, no. We've been named." It should be, "What do we need to do to improve."

Laura:                     Yeah, possibly. It was definitely a way to shame schools into having to deal with it, and the positive is that many schools embraced when there were complaints and said, "We need to do better. We need to do more." Amherst is one of those schools. There's several others. SUNY, that school system. A lot of them were proactive as a result and said, "Well, it's coming out. We might as well take ownership and try to change that narrative by accountability for ourselves, and pushing the envelope for how to be the most progressive school with the best policies and procedures and prevention effort."

Laura:                     So definitely, I think, a good thing. We talked about the list. It's all colleges. There were K through 12 and over 80 school districts were on the list last I knew. So it's not just campuses. Unfortunately this is a K through 12 issue.

Laura:                     But I wanna finish talking about two of the drivers [inaudible 00:13:59].

Mike:                       Absolutely, yes.

Laura:                     One of them is absolutely what you mentioned. I wouldn't frame it as I'm worried that sounds like me, as much as I don't really believe what sexual assault is. A lot of people want sexual assault to be the most violent of, and most egregious of the actions in a sexual setting. So physically abusing and raping someone, and they don't wanna think of it as, "I ignored the no," or they were too drunk to consent. They don't want it to be anything lower than the most egregious standard. Because yeah, it may be conduct that they themselves have engaged in because we, unfortunately, live in a rape culture where there are narratives that sexual aggression is okay, that pushing someone into certain sexual activity, whether they're sober, whether they're aware or not, whether they're comfortable or not doesn't matter. And all that rape culture really does allow people to perpetrate a variety of offenses, whether they be criminal all the through or just misconduct at a campus level does really matter, I think, at the end of the day because someone's harmed.

Laura:                     So there is a little bit of that. I think it's rooted in the lack of understanding of what sexual violence really is, and when acknowledge that it's not just no means no, it's only yes means yes. That's really how we start protecting society, and that's why so many campuses have affirmative consent standards.

Laura:                     The other, which is somewhat related, is a lot of people think women lie. And that is the narrative I see most prominently pushed. I have no problem with people who are due process advocates. You want a fair process? So do I. I'm a lawyer. I care about it being done right. We don't, of course, want anyone falsely accused. I just think that's very rare, and unfortunately a lot of those advocates think it's very, very common because they don't believe that women tell the truth about their experiences.

Laura:                     And a lot of that is grounded in really old narratives that, quite frankly, I don't understand how they haven't gone out of fashion. A lot of them are regret sex. Well, we've had the sexual revolution. We're pretty comfortable with consent. We understand that most people are having sex before marriage. It's not really this shame factor. Slut shaming is not as much of a factor to deter people from being truthful, and there's a lot of other related narratives that contribute to rape culture in society that these people have bought and sold, and are selling now publicly saying, "These are lies. These are untruths," and as a result we can't take any victim seriously and they want us just going back to the day where no one believes the survivor when they speak forward.

Laura:                     I don't think that's gonna happen, but definitely there's a cultural war happening, and thankfully the MeToo movement is pushing for others to keep believing survivors and realize this is a relevant problem. The norm is survivors not getting justice. It's not false accusations.

Mike:                       Yeah, when I'm in front of audience, when people bring up false, one this that I'll do is I say, "Okay. Could everybody in the room raise their hand, not to identify themselves, but if you know a survivor of sexual assault. If you just know a survivor, raise your hands," and the far majority of the room raises their hands. "Keep your hands up if you know multiple." The far majority know multiple. Okay, great.

Mike:                       I mean, typically we're talking 80%, 75, 80%. Okay, "How many of you know someone actually accused and you guarantee know it was a false report?" Now I'm not gonna get into whether the ... because that might not even be right, what you think is a false report. And they actually went to prosecution, all the worst nightmare you think happens, happened, and they're in jail. The worst case. What you think happens in false report, maybe one out of hundreds of people in the room will raise their hand and say, "I think that's a case I know of," but you want us to talk about that one injustice more than the hundreds of injustices of everybody having their hands in the room.

Mike:                       And so we try to show them why. If we only have an hour to talk about reducing sexual violence, or two hours, or three hours, the students, we're gonna focus on survivors and we're not gonna focus that time on the one. That doesn't mean that false reports aren't horrible. As you said they are, but we have limited time for education. So in my work, what I focus on, that's what I'm focus on. I'll say to somebody, "If you're worried about the false reports maybe you could do that work," but I'm not gonna take the time of education for reducing sexual violence for that time.

Mike:                       And it's because it's so important people realize that pushback is so unfair. Well this one false report, therefore we can't talk about the 999 cases that take place. So I'm so glad you brought that up.

Mike:                       You also brought up rape culture, and this is one that people get very defensive about, angry about at times. An argument that I'll hear is, "I was never raised to think rape was okay. How dare you tell me I've been raised in a rape culture. When a rape case happens everyone's appalled. Everyone would want to kill the person if it was someone they love, therefore we do not live in a rape culture. How can you say we live in a rape culture?" What's your response to that?

Laura:                     I actually normally do a very brief activity, that maybe takes a most three minutes with people, I say, "Okay. Just give me all the words that you know for women who are sexually active." You hear slut, whore, skank, all these negative terms. "Give me all the words you know for men who are sexually active," player, positive, he's the man. Anything that's a thumbs up. They're doing well, so it's positive. Women are negative, men are positive. And I said, "Okay. Give me some slang for sex." Screw, nail, bang, hitting it, beating it, all terms of violence. And these are words that the audience provides me. I just give them the prompt, and I say, "You have just, with your own words and choices with these prompts, shown me rape culture." Men can be sexually active.

Laura:                     Sex is often described as violent, and women are the ones who pay the price for that and are demeaned as a result. That is rape culture. So I, personally, wasn't raised doing room-sized classes and things like that, but when I saw that activity when I was an undergrad student I was like, "Yeah, rape culture is real because I just gave those words without any other connotation," and I realized it is within our language. It's within our norms.

Mike:                       Yes, definitely. And you brought me to movement, and you've been very active from the start of the MeToo movement, and yet there's controversy around the MeToo movement. It wasn't at first. It was interesting, and I've talked about this in my work, that at first some of the cases were so blatantly extreme that the whole world was, "Yes." We were united. This was a movement that needed to speak out until a couple cases came forward of celebrities that didn't seem as blatantly obvious sexual violence. Seem like more the norm of people going out and having a good time, and then the regret defense is used in that and suddenly we saw backlash.

Mike:                       The most common one was the comedian ... Oh, my gosh. I'm having a brain freeze right now, Aziz Ansari, there we go. And that was one where he didn't defend, but other people defended the situation. So let's talk about one the co-oping of the MeToo movement early on, because that's an important discussion that often gets forgotten, and then the strength though of the current MeToo movement and then the backlash. So let's start with ... I don't think a lot of people realize there was a co-op that began this, and so you, Ana, speak to that?

Laura:                     Yeah, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you in any way. A lot of people timed the MeToo movement to The New York Times breaking the story about Harvey Weinstein-

Mike:                       Exactly.

Laura:                     ... very differently because there was a whole campus movement. There was a whole military movement, and then there was a workplace movement. So I see a continuation. MeToo was the hashtag for the worker division, but this has been a movement that's been going on for a while if you'd been paying attention. And in all of these movements have had their day in the sun and everyone's like, "Yes. We agree. It's wrong on campus. It's wrong in the military. It's wrong in the workplace," and all of them have seen the inevitable backlash. I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do live in DC. There are conservative ...

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Laura:                     I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do live in D.C. There are conservative think tanks. This is a topic that national attention is being given to, to change the narrative, to push certain policies throughout our country. I do think tactically there has been attacks by conservative groups, saying, "This is not a good narrative for a lot of our political positions and views. We really need to co-opt it, and push it, and so-

Mike:                       Can we pause there, 'cause I can hear some people thinking, "Hey, I'm outside of the D.C. world. I don't understand what you're referring to there. What do you mean think tanks are conspiring?

Laura:                     Yeah, just different think tanks. People are literally paid to sit around and create campaigns and efforts to change public opinion and therefore ultimately be able to push certain policies. Heritage Group is one of them. There are several others. If you're not familiar, you can just Google it and look up conservative and/or liberal think tanks. They exist out there.

Mike:                       What we're saying here, just so I understand correctly, is a think tank is thinking, "If I make this an issue, if we make the need to movement a bad movement, that will gain our followers into political. They're more likely to come out and vote. They're more likely to be active ... that group's followers, so let's use this issue. Let's fight against it, 'cause it will draw people into our way of voting." Is that the overall idea there?

Laura:                     Yeah, that's definitely of the idea and you can kind of see it with the Safe Campus Acts that was put forward not all that long ago into Congress. That act was backed by Greek organizations, fraternities and sororities. It literally ... more so fraternities than sororities, to be honest ... so it was a PAC. It was a group, a group that was influencing Congress and politicians to advance their own interest, which was not to have schools take any action against them, to allow them to be able to stay on campus, keep having parties no matter what crimes were reported there or being investigated. There are groups that do have incentives. Fraternities often do have a lot of connections to political offices and place a lot of their members there, so there is, unfortunately a relationship.

Laura:                     It's very sad to say, but right now Stephen Miller, who's in the White House advising President Drumpf, has been outspoken in his backlash against Title IX, against efforts on campus sexual assaults. A lot of that narrative is pro-men and women are liars and that kind of narrative which appeals, unfortunately, to some conservative groups.

Mike:                       Understand. So MeToo today ... Where do you feel it's at? Where do you see it going?

Laura:                     Yeah, I think MeToo has been very powerful in having survivors kind of come out in the numbers. We always knew, right? People have debated and been skeptical of statistics. You can't be skeptical when almost everyone on your Facebook page is saying, "Me, too. Here's my experience." I always knew this was a big issue. I always knew the statistics. Even I was shocked one day going on Facebook when the MeToo hashtag was really popular how many friends I still hadn't known had had these experiences, and from any level, from being harassed on the street all the way through being assaulted or having childhood experiences with this issue. It's been great in showing this is a real problem. It affects way more people than you think it does.

Laura:                     Injustice is the norm, often because powerful individuals go out of their way to create scenarios where they can perpetrate with impunity, such as looking at the Weinstein cases. He was so powerful in Hollywood. He held the keys to the kingdom if you wanted to be famous. A lot of people knew. It was an open secret. Same with Bill Cosby ... That had been going on with decades.

Laura:                     We see a lot of power and privilege being associated. MeToo is on tenuous footing because it has to move into action, in my opinion. It's fine to have awareness. That's step one. A lot of people have been using MeToo to out people publicly. I think that's been important for some of these cases, but really we do have legal systems for a reason. It's not just about publicly shaming people, because sometimes you can be sued for defamation. You really have to be thoughtful and careful and know what the legal risks are.

Laura:                     Ideally, it's to change our systems, to make them more effective. We shouldn't have open secrets and perpetrators allowed to continue with impunity and that requires tactical, political, legal change at every level ... campus, in our courthouses, criminal and civil alike.

Mike:                       You created SurvJustice to help have a source, a place people could go and get that support. We were talking earlier the campus example of reaching out. How does somebody do that? What's the best way to contact SurvJustice? If you're listening right now and you're a survivor and you're thinking, "Hey, I wanna talk with someone. I wanna know my options," what's the best way to do that?

Laura:                     Absolutely. SurvJustice is spelled a little uniquely. It is S as in Sam, U as in umbrella, R as in Reagan, V as in vase, Justice, and that's one word ... SurvJustice. You can go to the websites ... just SurvJustice.org, or obviously also on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. There's many ways to reach out. Again, SurvJustice is the only national non-profit representing victims in campus hearings across the country, having transitioned on and now with the Fierberg Law Group, I am exclusively working on civil cases. When it has gone to the next level, when damages and recovery are really the only options for survivors, that action is being taken on by myself and my team.

Laura:                     There are, of course, other lawyers all across the country that specialize in Title IX, in sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and sexual assault cases. There are many resources out there. I am proud to have founded SurvJustice. I think it's a good first stop if you're not really sure where to go and what kind of sources you need. They'll route you there if they can't assist you.

Mike:                       We'll have that website on the show notes absolutely. We'll also have your website, which is lauraldunnesq.com, so people can find you, reach out to you, which is so important. You also are a proponent of teaching sexual respect. How do you do that through your work?

Laura:                     It's built right into the vision of SurvJustice. A lot of people think of mission where you're trying to accomplish. Envision is where are you trying to go? If the world is perfect, what does it look like?

Laura:                     Sexual respect is the norm in my vision, because really if we just make sexual respect a norm in interactions, I think a lot of these issues melt away. There may always be sexual violence, but I don't believe acquaintance rape has to be such a norm if we treat one another with sexual respect. It's about making sure your partner's comfortable. It's making sure that you are not being aggressive in pursuing sex at any means to any ends and you're really rejecting that in our culture and calling other people out to say, "It's really important that you treat everyone dignity and respect." It's not about romance. You can just be having fun, but at the end of the day, consent is important and not just in the way you interact with others, but the way, of course, people interact with you. You wanna feel respected and cared for in those interactions and safe.

Laura:                     I often do trainings. I don't just talk about response, which is, of course, my specialty as a lawyer, but how response has to be full circle with prevention. We have to give these right messages of, "This is how we should behave. This is what we should be doing," and we've got to back that up with serious responses. When someone breaks that norm that we're creating, there has to be a consequence. We can't allow there to be impunity. We have to make sure sexual respect is accorded by all our institutions.

Mike:                       That's awesome. Laura, what was a book that you think can benefit people? If they're listening, going, "Hey, I would love to dive into a book on this," what would be a book you recommend?

Laura:                     Oh, there's so many. I have a really big library on this topic. I'll just say what I'm reading right now, which is "I Have the Right To," which is by Chessy Prout. I will have full disclosure here. She is a former client of mine. She had a very high-profile high school prep case in what which she as a freshman was targeted by an 18-year-old senior boy for a senior salute, which meant taking her to an isolated place on campus and trying to get as much from her sexually as possible, and he ended up raping her.

Laura:                     There was a criminal trial with a partial conviction. He wasn't convicted on every offense, but on some of them. She really was attacked and defamed in the media as a minor, as a minor survivor, and so SurvJustice came in. We protected her privacy. We spoke to the media to keep her privacy moving forward.

Laura:                     As a result of having that conviction at the end, she went forward, sued the school, and this story really talks about her experience through this struggle and against such a powerful institution, but of course also gives messages of, "How can this not be the case? What could we have done and what can we create moving forward where sexual respect is the norm, where we actually have institutions that know how to respond and don't support perpetrators?" Really, in her case, her school is fundraising for the person accused to support his defense, so really, again, shedding light on what survivors go through and also calling out how we can change moving forward. I hope people check out that book, "I Have the Right To." It's also a hash tag and on Twitter and social media.

Mike:                       She's been all over national media. She is an example like millions of survivors out there with their strength and their courage in sharing thing with the world. You just shared so much brilliance with us and expertise. Thank you so much, Laura, for joining us.

Laura:                     Absolutely. Thank you for having me on and thanks for all the work you do.

Mike:                       Oh, our pleasure.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. Remember, you can always find me at Mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:31:30]

 

Chris Clarke-Epstein, CSP is a change expert who has spent over 30 years challenging diverse groups including senior leadership teams, middle management supervisors, and health care professionals to apply new knowledge. Her presentations blend an innovative delivery of sound learning theory, activities that lead to practical solutions, and infectious enthusiasm that send participants home ready to apply what they’ve learned.

 

Author of and contributor to more than 15 books, Chris teaches and writes in critical areas such as understanding the dynamics of change, delivering effective feedback, dealing with conflict, and building high performance teams. Her skills have taken her around the world working for clients such as MGMA National and Chapters, Deloitte, AHA, Sherman Hospital, NML, Marshfield Clinic, and Aurora Healthcare System. Chris served as adjunct faculty at the Center for Telecommunication/USC, is a Certified Speaking Professional, a Certified Health Consultant from the BCBS Association, and is past president of the National Speakers Association.

 

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