Open Mike Podcast

For nearly two decades, Chris Mumma has served as the Executive Director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence, having represented 8 exonorees and fighting for a half a dozen more still behind bars. During her impressive tenure, she has forced legislation on multiple issues regarding wrongful convictions and established the only innocence inquiry commission in the United States. Instrumental in fighting for criminal justice reform in North Carolina, Mumma has spearheaded legislation on eyewitness identification, the recording of interrogations, preservation of biological evidence, and enhanced support for exonerees. On the latest installment of Open Mike, Mumma recounts her most troubling case to date, highlights the Center’s upcoming initiatives, and reflects on the future of American criminal justice reform.

Show Notes

[00:21] Chris Mumma’s background as Executive Director of the North Carolina Center on Actual Innocence.

[01:15] Welcome to the show, Chris! Could you tell our viewers how you got started in the fight for justice for the wrongfully convicted?

[02:20] You’ve had quite the career! Over the years, you’ve identified several reoccurring problems that are consistent in wrongful convictions. Let’s start with eyewitness identification… I read that you’ve been able to create some new legislation in North Carolina that I’d love to hear about.

[03:31] Misidentification is a first step that leads down wrong paths. It’s a beginning factor that can lead to false confessions, tunnel vision, and faulty forensics — it branches out into other causation issues. We’re also implicitly more comfortable identifying the features of those who bear our racial and genetic similarities.

[05:01] When you talk about changes made to lineup identification… what is the difference between sequential and simultaneous identification?

[06:54] Do you know how many other states have also made these changes? North Carolina was the first, you said?

[08:03] Was lineup identification the only aspect of witness identification that was reformed?

[08:44] It’s so interesting — every time I do an episode, I probably say this — wrongful convictions are so similar. Wrongful convictions follow a playbook.

[09:41] We’re so accustomed to being recorded everywhere… the ATM, walking down the street, grocery stores… yet many law enforcement offices don’t record what happens behind their closed doors. How can this be, especially when dealing with matters that affect someone’s life?

[09:51] Are they recording lineups now?

[11:34] I know you’ve been instrumental in getting some laws regarding preservation of biological evidence passed in North Carolina… What were the existing procedures, and how were you able to get them to change?

[13:35] The one case that really combines all of these elements we’re discussing is the Willie Grimes case. All exonerations are tragic… this one in particular is extremely hard to read about — the mistreatment, the corruption, the fraud. I’d love for you to set it up for our audience.

[15:01] The book Ghost of an Innocent Man covers Grimes’s ordeal in detail.

[19:01] Isn’t this the case where the victim falsely identified the defense attorney in court as her assailant?

[19:50] In most wrongful conviction cases, an awful defense attorney is involved. Can you tell me about his attorney at trial?

[23:41] In a rape there’s a lot of biological evidence… was there any testing conducted in the rape kit in this case?

[27:43] Was the fingerprint evidence at the scene of the crime actually used in the trial?

[28:55] This inquiry commission to search law enforcement’s files was very innovative. How did they get involved and accomplish this?

[31:33] Of the 22 cases investigated by the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission, there was evidence reported as being destroyed or lost in 11 cases.

[33:26] Is the Innocence Inquiry Commission run by the state?

[33:49] Are there conviction integrity units in your jurisdiction?

[37:05] How many cases are you working on? And I’m curious about your impression… how many people in North Carolina do you think are wrongfully behind bars right now?

[38:28] A lot of the people I’ve interviewed and files I’ve read are about older cases… Do you think with the changes that are being made that things are getting better with the wrongful conviction crisis?

[39:52] Most wrongful convictions the culture discusses are about felonies, but wrongful misdemeanor convictions are exponentially higher.

[40:48] Until we have a culture shift at the top — with law enforcement and prosecutors — progress won’t accelerate the way we need it to.

[42:02] Keep up the great work and all the wonderful things you’re accomplishing. Christina Mumma, thank you for being on the show and helping to educate the public that wrongful convictions are real, and prevalent, and everywhere. Thank you for being on the show.

[42:45] Going down this path of wrongful convictions, I can’t believe this is still happening. It’s mind-blowing that Chris even has 135 cases to work on. If you know someone is sitting in prison for a crime they didn’t commit, step up. Find the courage and tell someone in law enforcement or at a prosecutor’s office. What is worse than sitting in prison for a crime you didn’t commit? Thank you for watching — make sure to like, share, subscribe, and comment. We have our 100th episode coming up soon, and you won’t want to miss it! Thank you and take care.

On December 2nd, 1999, Timothy Cole died of an asthma attack while in prison for a sexual assault he didn’t commit. Stunned by the injustice of the loss, his brother Cory vowed to clear his brother’s name and ensure such a tragedy never befall anyone else. His family, joined by the victim and the Texas Innocence Project, successfully overturned Tim’s conviction on February 6, 2009, becoming the state of Texas’s first posthumous exoneration. Today, Cory is the Vice President of the Texas Innocence Project, drawing upon his experiences to lobby for progressive, statewide justice reform. Tune in to this moving installment of Open Mike for updates on the Innocence Project’s current initiatives and how Tim’s family is faring these days.

Show Notes

[00:30] Background of Cory Session, Vice President of Texas’s Innocence Project, and context of his brother Timothy Cole’s wrongful conviction and asthma attack death while behind bars.

[01:04] Cory, welcome to Open Mike. I hate meeting under these circumstances, but I know it’s your life’s mission, talking about your brother and Innocence Projects… you’ve worked tirelessly to free wrongful convictions — can you set the stage for our viewers on why?

[03:20] This ended up being a high-profile case… a white woman being allegedly raped by a Black man, a series of serial sexual assaults that started before he even got to campus… why don’t you tell us some of the basic issues that happened within the case and doomed Timothy’s chance at a fair trial?

[7:07] Testimonial from the survivor stated that her assailant kept smoking cigarettes and she would pocket the butts, thinking they would be useful as evidence. Timothy was a severe asthmatic and couldn’t smoke — information that was not told to her by police.

[08:12] Another rape occurred, and Tim was identified as the rapist… which is impossible, because he was not even in the same geographic region and had an alibi.

[09:48] Tim refused a plea deal for two years of probation, because he refused to admit to a crime he didn’t do.

[11:48] Every time Tim’s defense attorney mentioned the name of a suspect who later ended up being guilty, the judge threatened to hold him in contempt.

[12:15] He was convicted and ultimately sentenced to 25 years in prison.

[15:28] On December 3rd, Tim’s family was notified that he had passed away in prison the previous day.

[21:46] While Tim was in prison, he still remained in close contact with his family, with multiple visits. And maintained his innocence, hoping for eventual exoneration.

[22:59] A lot of these cases have bad lawyering, but it doesn’t sound like that here. It sounds like Tim had a horrible prosecutor and judge. It’s shocking how this jury came to this result. I know there was DNA evidence back during this time — none of which could have matched your brother and matched someone else.

[24:32] Was it argued at trial that your brother couldn’t smoke cigarettes?

[25:12] Fast forwarding a little bit to the wonderful changes you and your family were able to put into action in Texas… why don’t you talk about some of the developments that have occurred as well as your mission work?

[27:43] In 2008, an investigative reporter told Tim’s family that detectives had a rape kit that would have potentially exonerated him, implicated Jerry Wayne Johnson, the actual rapist, and they were sitting on it. Up until that time, no one in Texas had been posthumously exonerated.

[31:45] Tim’s family ended up meeting with then-governor Rick Perry and convinced him to pass the Timothy Cole Compensation Act which increased compensation funds to exonerees to $80,000 per year for time served — the most generous in the country — as well as up to 120 college credit hours and lifetime annuity.

[34:43] We’ve been doing a lot of these cases, and people who are exonerated do not receive the same benefits as someone who’s been paroled… so it’s fantastic that the state of Texas has been getting on board and trying to make it better for those who have been released.

[38:01] Tim’s family still keeps in contact with the assault survivor who incorrectly identified him as a perpetrator, and there is no blame being cast— both parties are moving forward with grace and forgiveness.

 [39:03] Is there anything being done in Texas to make sure this never happens to someone else? Because you and I both know that wrongful identifications make up a huge percentage of wrongful convictions…

[42:16] Can you give us a brief overview of what you’re doing as VP of Texas’s Innocence Project?

[45:13] You’re doing some great work and I commend you for these admirable efforts. Last question… what do you think Tim would say about all of the good work you’re doing with the Innocence Project and all the developments that happened posthumously?

[47:13] While he was in prison, Tim stated, “I still believe in the justice system even if it does not believe in me.”

[47:40] I think with your tenacity, we will reach a place where justice is distributed more equally. And I want to end on that powerful note. Cory Sessions, thank you so much for being here with us on Open Mike and sharing your story.

[48:02] Be sure to check out the Texas Innocence Project, and donate if you can!

[48:18] Another tough one… if you know somebody who needs to see this episode, forward it to them, like, comment, subscribe… thank you for being here with us and watching Open Mike — take care.

What if you could nourish both the bodies and the souls of your fellow neighbors? We the People Opportunity Farm has accomplished just that for Washtenaw County and its inhabitants. The community farming project has sowed the seeds for its participants’ success by investing in the employment and development of formerly incarcerated men and women through farming and community engagement. Since its unofficial launch in 2017, the program has consistently expanded in both size and reach, selling its vegetables to seventeen area restaurants and donating fresh produce to those in need. We the People Opportunity Farm prides itself on its core values of radical inclusion, intentional collaboration, courageous disruption, foundational justice, and commitment to growth — all of which have been integral to the project’s stunning development. If you’re passionate about gardening or advocacy work, this episode is an absolute must-watch!

Show Notes

[00:44] Melvin Parson and Deshawn Leath, welcome to Open Mike!

[00:51] This is the first time I’ve had guests in my studio in months, and this feels like a really good one to welcome people back with. I’ve been reading about you, Melvin, and what a program you have put together — We the People Opportunity Farm in Washtenaw County. Tell us about this incredible nonprofit that involves farming, feeding the needy, and helping former convicts reintegrate into society!

[02:00] I love the analogy of building the plane in the air… when did you start this program?

[03:55] What did you grow in the garden that first summer?

[06:15] How did you get the land that you built the farm on?

[09:22] A chance interaction with a local, neighborhood kid who wanted to help with the farm made Melvin realize that this space could hold a tremendous amount of community value. It was his job to create a safe space for others to nourish themselves, both physically and spiritually.

[12:38] This community garden has been steadily growing — how large is it now?

[14:38] It’s 2017, you had a quarter-acre of land for the garden, lots of volunteers… what kind of vegetables are you growing?

[15:40] Well-known Ann Arbor staple Zingerman’s Roadhouse ended up being the first client they sold their produce to. They eventually expanded to seventeen other restaurant clients in the Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti area, all of whom praised the quality of the vegetables, which Melvin attributes to the quality of the soil he curated.

[17:46] How many acres are you growing on now?

[18:43] I want to bring Deshawn Leath into the conversation… one of Melvin’s tenets is to bring in lots of volunteers and to bring in formerly incarcerated, paid interns into the farm. Tell us about yourself, and your story.

[21:50] While serving a five-year prison sentence, Deshawn committed himself to transforming his life, and was connected with Melvin through another nonprofit. He’s currently interning with We the People Opportunity Farm, 46 days after his release.

[22:46] What an incredible story, Deshawn. Did you do any type of farming or gardening while you were in prison?

[23:50] Melvin, farming is not an easy business… using former inmates — tell me your thought process on that? It sounds like you’re specifically seeking out former inmates to help the farm.

[28:29] You’ve probably already thought about this, Melvin, because you are quite the visionary… the two of you and others in your situation going into prison and teaching inmates about gardening, soil, and how to change their lives… If that’s allowed, of course. Have you thought of that?

[29:28] Are all of your interns formerly incarcerated men and women? How many have you taken on?

[30:24] With help from their partner Grace Fellowship Church House of Solutions, which is where the farm is currently located, they hope to expand from half-an-acre to a full acre, which would allow them to introduce more people into the paid internship program.

[33:01] If people want to come for field trips, or just to visit, volunteer, and enjoy the energy of what you’ve grown, how can they find out about you and arrange to make that happen?

[34:30] Because of COVID-19, volunteering opportunities are more intentional and structured, but you can contact We the People Opportunity Farm at any time via their website and social to arrange a date.

[35:42] Deshawn, do you believe this internship will break the cycle of incarceration? What does this opportunity mean to you?

[38:28] One of the admirable values of your mission is to be “courageously disruptive of the prison-industrial complex.” Could you explain that to me?

[40:44] You’re in Washtenaw County and some really good things are happening there! You have a new prosecutor who’s shaking things up, and ended the cash bail system… I think that’s the first county in Michigan and hopefully it will become statewide.

[46:30] I can’t see how you could fail with this energy you keep… you certainly have commitment from my law firm — we’re going to donate to your cause — and when you need people out there, we’re going to help bring people. We didn’t even mention this — but you give a lot of this beautiful, soulful food to people who can’t afford it! Tell us a little more about that.

[50:26] If there’s anything you need from me, please reach out and let me know. Thank you both for being here — I really appreciate you taking the time to share your vision with me, and I look forward to the future because I know it’s going to be bright.

[50:56] Thank you for listening and watching Open Mike! I hope you were as blown away as I was — please volunteer, donate, and buy merch from them! I can’t wait to see what happens with this organization because I’m anticipating great things. Please share, like, comment on this episode — and thank you for tuning in.

The entire world has been disrupted by the COVID-19 pandemic, but few industries have been hit as uniquely hard as the bar and restaurant sector. Recognizing the dire straits the industry faces, Michigan-born comedian Jason Douglas was compelled to help and launched Pay it Forward Comedy, a virtual standup series that distributes crowd-sourced funds to struggling restaurants and bars. The shows feature national headline acts from shows like Seinfeld and Breaking Bad donating their time and talent to raise money for small businesses that have partially or completely closed down due to the pandemic. Tune in to this latest installment of Open Mike for information on upcoming comedy shows and ways to contribute to your local establishments — while enjoying laugh or two as well!

Show Notes

[00:30] Jason Douglas’s bio and Pay It Forward Comedy charity event details.

[00:54] Jason, welcome to Open Mike!

[01:08] There are so many ways to help small businesses, like you’re doing with Pay It Forward Comedy. Tell us how you came up with the idea!

[01:40] So you have the participation of some comedians who have been on Seinfeld and Breaking Bad… tell us who they are! How hard was it to get them to do this?

[02:21] Wait, Agent Gomez from Breaking Bad is a comedian?

[02:39] When are these comedy shows? How can people watch?

[02:47] Check out their Facebook Page for upcoming show dates!

[03:12] I didn’t know you were a Metro Detroit guy! I have a lot of restaurant friends, so I love this idea. Where were you born and raised?

[03:37] How does this work? You’re conducting this on Facebook or a platform where people can digitally log in… but let’s say we pick a great restaurant — walk us through how the event works.

[04:48] Have you done one yet in Michigan?

[05:47] I know when I’m in a comedy club, I’m laughing my ass off… whereas, if I’m watching an HBO comedy set, I’m not as engaged. How are you finding it translating over via Zoom? How does the audience interact and how do you feed off them when the audience is remote?

[07:03] Let’s try it — I’m gonna put you on the spot. Give me a little something!

[07:47] How many shows have you done thus far? And what’s the reaction from the restaurants?

[08:08] Those headliners you mentioned… are they up for participating whenever?

[08:39] How many of the jokes are about COVID and the pandemic? What percentage does that occupy the setlist?

[09:35] Tell me about your comedic life! Before COVID, what were you up to, what’s your background?

[11:07] You’re booking a lot — are you still doing standup, or is that a thing of the past?

[12:04] Before COVID, there were a lot of new comedy shows on Netflix… now that live comedy shows are paused, I imagine there’s been a boom in recorded comedy specials?

[12:50] Royal Oak’s Comedy Castle is consistently voted one of the nation’s best comedy clubs and just reopened in late February for the first time since the pandemic.

[14:05] Do you like heckling when you’re performing?

[15:28] You mentioned you worked with Brad Garrett… what did you do for him? Is he a good dude?

[16:05] Your company is called the Comedian Company and you’re still booking events both corporate and private party right now… if anyone is listening and owns a restaurant that is struggling, make sure to contact Jason, who is providing this service.

[22:36] Jason also got Darren McCarty, a former Open Mike Guest, into comedy.

[23:48] Thanks for being on Open Mike, Jason! We’ll talk soon.

[23:58] There you have it! Jason Douglas from Pay It Forward Comedy… if you have someone in your life who loves to laugh, be sure to forward this episode to them and like/subscribe. We’re nearing 3 million downloads and are coming up to our 100th episode, which we have some special stuff planned for… we appreciate you watching — take care!

At age 17, Philadelphian Terrance Lewis found himself falsely accused of the 1996 murder of Hulon Howard, incriminated by the deceased’s girlfriend who was under the influence of crack cocaine at the time. After an excruciating two-year-long investigation, Lewis was ultimately convicted of murder and sent to prison. He would remain wrongfully incarcerated for the next twenty-one years, until a new defense team, groundbreaking Supreme Court ruling, and pragmatic Common Pleas Judge helped pave the way to his 2019 exoneration. Upon release, Lewis successfully filed a civil rights lawsuit against the city of Philadelphia and appropriated the funds to launch the Terrance Lewis Liberation Foundation, a non-profit that advocates for wrongfully convicted and disproportionately sentenced peoples. Tune in to this installment of Open Mike to find out how he managed to reassemble his life and give back to others who have been similarly victimized.

Show Notes

[00:13] Terrance Lewis’s background and bio.

[00:49] Terrance, welcome to the show. I’m so happy to have you here, today.

[1:00] I’ve read a lot about you and I have to say I’m so sorry you spent nineteen years in prison for a murder you didn’t commit. It’s just a heartbreaking story and I’m so pleased you’re approaching a two-year milestone of being released. I’m honored to have you on the show.

[01:48] Terrance actually spent over twenty-one years in prison.

[02:57] It’s scary how common these stories are, how common the injustice and the fraud is. It’s just mind-boggling...

[03:38] Let’s go back to 1997, you were nineteen years old, expecting your first child, a month away from being born… were you excited about becoming a dad?

[04:58] Were you able to build a connection with your son while you were in prison?

[05:59] Terrance was placed in the farthest regions of Pennsylvania, far from his hometown of Philadelphia, further isolating him from his family.

[06:15] How many times did you see your son in those twenty-one years?

[07:21] Let’s go back to 1997 again… there was a murder in your neighborhood, you were living with your cousin, didn’t have a ton of money… did you hear about this murder or know that something happened?

[08:42] When was the first time you were notified you were a suspect? Was it when the police approached you?

[09:33] Tell us how the police became convinced of your guilt and arrested you?

[11:29] One of the witnesses had gotten high on crack cocaine prior to alleging Terrance’s guilt. Police then manipulated and exploited her unreliable memory to spoon feed her contrived information that pinned the murder on Terrance.

[13:15] They never got a wrongful confession out of you, correct? They never tied you with DNA, a weapon, or any evidence except for a known addict who was getting high when she allegedly saw you, correct?

[14:01] There were two other people convicted who were with you at the time, yes?

[15:24] Who was your defense attorney for your trial?

[16:37] Was this a court-appointed attorney or did you retain him with money?

[18:56] Did you meet your attorney before the trial?

[20:57] How many days was your trial?

[21:30] A lot of these wrongful conviction trials are short jury trials with poor defense attorneys who aren’t calling up witnesses or cross-examining… did he mount any defense once the trial was going? Were you aware during your trial that things were going horribly awry?

[24:21] Where were you at the time of the murder? Did you have an alibi?

[26:18] None of that makes sense and it’s shocking to hear these types of stories. Did your attorney call any witnesses at all on your behalf?

[27:58] Terrance, with all due love and respect, you keep saying you’re not a lawyer… but you’re smarter than a lot of lawyers I know — you don’t have to be a lawyer to brainstorm these facts you’re presenting, which makes your situation even sadder. Did you testify at trial? You mentioned that you wanted to, but did you ever take the stand?

[32:05] Take us through the process of how you were exonerated — what happened along that journey?

[34:07] In 2012, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that it was unconstitutional to give minors like Lewis mandatory life sentences without the possibility of parole. In 2016, a second ruling from the high court made that decision retroactive, giving Lewis the opportunity to be resentenced.

[38:11] You went to a judge, prepared to plead guilty to a crime you didn’t commit in order to win your innocence… and that judge decided to not make you go through with that, and vacated your sentence on the spot — is that basically what happened?

[40:54] I want to talk about how you got your paralegal degree while you were in prison — is that true?

[41:13] You got out of prison and you had job offers! That was actually a positive aspect, and I’m curious — are you working now? What are you currently doing?

[41:40] Terrance is in the process of opening his own foundation, a 501c3 nonprofit, the Terrance Lewis Liberation Foundation, dedicated to advocating for wrongfully convicted people and those serving disproportionate sentences. The Liberation Foundation also seeks to support formerly incarcerated folks and challenge police and prosecutorial misconduct.

[43:46] You filed a civil lawsuit after you got out and won over $6 million — congratulations, you deserve it! And you’re using your own money to help other people get out of prison, which is commendable. Is that what you’re doing full-time now?

[45:24] You had a dream to go to college, our notes say. Is that something you’re still pursuing?

[47:01] I commend you for all the work you’re doing to give back. And I’m so sorry you lost those 21 years. I love your attitude and energy. I’ve become friends with some exonerees in Detroit, and they have similar character — they’re caring people, loving people, they care about their community and aren’t consumed by rage or vengeance. And I get the same vibes from you.

[48:29] Keep up the good fight, Terrance.  Good luck with your son, your foundation… we appreciate you coming on Open Mike. Thanks again, it was so nice to meet you!

[49:01] There you have it — Terrance Lewis, exoneree from Pennsylvania, what a crazy story…if you’ve been following our wrongful conviction series, it’s just more of the same. If you know anybody who needs to see this, forward it to them, like it, subscribe to our channels, and thank you for being a fan of Open Mike. Take care!

This week, Open Mike welcomes its first faceless guest! Meet Ghost, a mysterious vigilante who has launched Creep Catching Unit, an online movement dedicated toward keeping communities safe by exposing and reporting pedophiles. CC Unit operates independently of law enforcement to entrap and confront predators who believe they’re meeting up with children or young teens. They then post videos of the altercations online for the Internet to distribute and publicly shame — a pillory for the digital age. In this must-see episode, Ghost takes us through his vigilante origin story, shares details on CC Unit’s most intense encounters, and swaps war stories with a surprise, celebrity visitor!

Show Notes

[00:05] Background of CC Unit and their founder, Ghost.

[00:52] Welcome to Ghost — or should I say Mr. Ghost — how are you?

[1:00] CC Unit is pretty big in California! I’ve looked at your YouTube channel that has tens of thousands of followers, your Facebook page is replete with information… but for my listeners who aren’t familiar with CC Unit, tell them what you’re all about!

[01:58] How many people are in CC Unit?

[02:23] On these videos, you’re normally the one who confronts these people?

[02:47] How long have you been doing this?

[03:04] I know you want to remain anonymous, but what can you tell us about your background? Tell your fans a little bit about yourself — that you can tell us.

[03:54] What sparked your interest to help your community like this?

[04:30] The first day Ghost created a decoy account, he caught a sex offender.

[04:52] Is being a detective or police officer still in the cards for you?

[05:48] You’re setting up decoy accounts and posing as a younger person, a 13 or 14-year-old… and then what happens? Take us through the process.

[07:16] How surprised were you the first time one of these creeps started hitting up what they believed to be a young kid?

[08:20] Did you videotape your first encounter when you met the perp?

[08:57] How many videos have you posted with different individuals?

[09:35] I’ve watched some of these videos… how many people do you gave with you when you make a bust?

[10:22] You’re not carrying a weapon when do make these busts, do you?

[10:41] What does “CC” stand for in “CC Unit?

[10:56] What does law enforcement think about you?

[11:27] I know here in Michigan, police and prosecutors were very upset with Zach Sweers from Anxiety Wars and said they would refuse to prosecute anyone he brought to them. Has anyone in California said anything like that to you?

[12:12] How many arrests and convictions have you helped facilitate?

[13:01] One person was convicted, and he was in the military? Tell me about that case, what did he try to do?

[13:56] Did you participate in that trial in any way? That case was based on evidence you brought to them?

[14:52] When you put the videos and offenders’ information on the internet, what’s the reaction?

[15:43] Let’s go to your Facebook page for a second… when scrolling through these, you do explain what all these people did to land on your page… there are hundreds of these! You have people of all different backgrounds in these cases and other people in the chat logs providing you their employment and other miscellaneous information… is there a movement behind these videos you’re posting?

[17:00] You mentioned you used to watch To Catch a Predator with Chris Hansen… tell us about your experience with that show, what it meant to you, and how it shaped what you’re doing now.

[18:50] What did you think of Chris Hansen?

[19:20] Would you say he was one of your heroes growing up?

[19:42] Have you ever talked to him or met him?

[20:24] Well, Ghost, I have a special surprise for you today. I’d like you to meet Chris Hansen!

[20:45] Thanks for jumping on today, Chris, I know you’re busy! Ghost here is trying to follow in your footsteps in California and is exposing a lot of pretty scummy people. I thought you guys should meet!

[23:17] Ghost, if you had one question for Chris what would it be?

[23:30] Would you ever collaborate with CC Unit?

[24:38] Thank you for appearing on the show, Chris!

[25:16] Let’s go back to you — have you had TV producers and directors call you for any potential collaborations?

[26:00] What are plans for CC Unit moving forward? Are you going national or expanding to bring on more cases?

[27:15] You’re active on YouTube and there are lots of commercials on your stuff! I assume you’re making some revenue from this?

[29:08] Is any part of your surprised that there are still these types of people online? You post something from a decoy account and get hundreds of responses… is that still shocking to you?

[30:19] Tell us about your craziest bust to date.

[31:10] The scariest part to me is that you’re just scratching the surface of this. It feels like there are tens of thousands of people out there still doing this… and that they’re successful. That scares me!

[32:20] Keep up the good work… CC Unit and Ghost, anyone who watches your stuff appreciates what you’re doing. Stay safe, be careful, and thank you for appearing on Open Mike!

[33:17] There you have it — Ghost from CC Unit with a guest appearance by Chris Hansen. Thanks for watching Open Mike and sharing this episode with anyone who needs it. We have our 100th episode coming up and we have something special planned — you won’t want to miss that! Take care and stay tuned…

Imran Syed is nationally recognized attorney, professor, and documentary film producer. As assistant director of Michigan’s Innocence Clinic, he and a coterie of supervised law students are at the forefront of criminal justice reform, investigating and litigating a wide variety of cases with special focus on forensic science-based innocence. Having litigated several arson wrongful convictions based on outdated science, Syed is an outspoken supporter of strategies needed to address obsolete scientific evidence and its role in false imprisonments. In Episode 93 of Open Mike, Syed and Mike discuss potential outcomes of the justice reform movement, and why arson cases may specifically lead the charge to widespread, national reform.

Show Notes

[00:14] Imran Syed bio and background as assistant director of the University of Michigan Innocence Clinic.

[00:58] Imran Syed, thank you for being on Open Mike today!

[01:25] You don’t have a giant ego, but let’s put it into perspective… how long has the Michigan Innocence Clinic been in existence, how many convictions have you overturned… give us some general statistics!

[03:28] In eleven years of being open, the Innocence Clinic has had twenty-four successful victories ranging from arson to murder.

[04:30] Let’s set the table for our viewers… how many cases do you get asked to review per year?

[06:09] On average, how many cases per year would you say you open?

[07:24] What percentage of the work you do is conducted by law students as opposed to the clinic’s three supervising attorneys?

[09:05] I know that the law students there, like yourself, are going on to do this for a living which has to be gratifying for you guys…

[10:17] I’ve interviewed six people who have been wrongfully convicted in Michigan, and the only reason they’re home with their families is because of organizations like the Innocence Clinic. Some of these cases you even worked on! How does the enormity of what you’re doing add up in your brain? How does that feel?

[13:33] You were instrumental in the Dwayne Provience case, which was one of the country’s first non-DNA innocence cases. Why was this particular case so groundbreaking?

[17:00] It feels like you can’t go another week with another wrongful conviction being overturned, right?

[19:42] Out of all these interviews I’ve been doing, and all these podcasts in this industry… I’ve met the most generous people. Your community is pretty special. When I’m reading through these cases preparing for an interview, the defense attorneys in wrongful convictions are usually just bad. What percentage of the time did exonerees have a stellar defense with the right experts and right arguments?

[22:57] You actually wrote a film on the case we were talking about called The Price of Providence… it won a few awards at the Great Lakes Film Festival, so congratulations on that! Tell us how about that project and how we can watch it!

[27:34] Another case you worked on, Walter Forbes — recently released after 37 years for a murder he didn’t commit. How long ago was he exonerated?

[27:58] Why don’t you take us through that… how long did you work on that case?

[34:54] And how is Walter Forbes now that he’s out of prison after 37 years?

[37:07] Talk about patience! This man should be giving lectures on the topic — I can’t even wait 37 minutes for an answer on some things, let alone 37 years. It’s unbelievable!

[40:13] It’s interesting, every exoneree I’ve met hasn’t come out of prison embittered, and it’s very consistent! They’re appreciative and they don’t want to waste another day being mad — and they’re all horrible stories! The only good aspect of these stories is that they’ve been released.

[41:28] One area that the Michigan Innocence Clinic specializes in is arson cases… I’ve never worked on any arson case — why are so many people imprisoned based on evidence surrounding arson?

[46:22] You have so much knowledge about arson cases… there are probably thousands of arson cases across this country right now being brought for wrongful reasons. Are you able to implement this knowledge and proliferate it to their defense attorneys, court-appointed or otherwise? Or are they on their own and forced to Google? How do you get the right information to the right people?

[48:48] I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention your clinic’s success in Abusive Head Trauma cases… It feels similar to what you’re describing in the arson world, which is basically junk science. Am I right?

[55:25] Maybe you and will one day have future conversations on this and civil attorneys across the country listening to this will be more inclined to help. I’m a big believer everyone should do a certain amount of pro bono hours per year, but not everyone does. Maybe with your professorship, we’ll be able to teach and shed some light on it!

[56:32] Any time there’s been reform, it has followed a civil litigation case with competent, qualified, oftentimes high-profile attorneys. Very rarely does it come out of criminal cases because no one has the resources to litigate the cases properly.

[58:58] Professor Imran Syed, thank you for being with us today and taking time to educate our listeners and viewers.

[59:38] If you know people who are interested in these issues, forward this episode to them and be sure to like and subscribe to our channel! Thank you for watching Open Mike!

Show Notes

[00:14] Kate Judson’s background and bio as Executive Director of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences.

[01:37] Welcome to the show! I’m so excited to talk to you – on Open Mike, we’ve never really focused on forensics. I’m reading a quote from you that says there have been 2,500 exonerations since 1989… is that right?

[02:18] It feels like every single week there’s another exoneration, and it’s hard to believe the frequency. Are you tracking what percentage of these exonerations are due to forensics?

[03:49] Let’s take a step back… can you tell us about forensic evidence and why it’s such an important part of criminal trials?

[04:27] What are some of the common problems and issues you encounter when dealing with forensic evidence and scientists?

[05:25] In 60% of exoneration cases, forensic analysts have overstated what evidence has showed… meaning, they stated the evidence was more conclusive than it actually was. The most common issue is cognitive bias, an unintentional, yet inherently human, subjective interpretation of objective data.

[06:44] On the show we had an attorney who discussed hyper-focus or tunnel vision on behalf of prosecutors and law enforcement… is that something you encounter?

[08:03] One of the reasons we do these shows is because I want potential jurors listening to have a healthy dose of skepticism… because when you have a scientist or analyst in court pointing to evidence saying, “This blood spatter means this,” it’s a hard thing to prove, isn’t it?

[09:28] We can’t stop ourselves from having a human brain and processing information the way we’re naturally disposed to — that’s why it’s so important to have a system to counteract it.

[09:38] One of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences’ areas of specialty is diagnosing Shaken Baby Syndrome, is that true? Can you tell our audience about the major flaws of that diagnosis in those types of cases?

[10:58] Our audience listened to an interview with Julie Baumer, someone who was convicted of Shaken Baby Syndrome… you worked on that case and wrote an Amicus for it, is that correct?

[11:55] Isn’t it true they recently changed the name from Shaken Baby Syndrome to “Abusive Head Trauma” cases?

[12:26] What is your best advice on those types of cases? Doctors, hospitals, and police seem to jump on that conclusion pretty quickly and it disrupts and ruins lives… if you were to be able to get in front of all those people and educate them, what would your stance be?

[18:25] In the case of bite marks, my impression is that all bites marks are accurate because we have different dental idiosyncrasies… tell me why that is completely wrong!

[20:57] Kate, you made me realize how messed up our thinking is. The bias comes from people dying in a fire and using their dental records to identify them, that’s where my inherent bias came from! We take all this information we’re exposed to on the news or TV shows, and when we’re presented bite marks or dentals records in a criminal case, we assume it’s inherently accurate, and it’s not!

[22:04] The legal system knows this to an extent. There are cases with precedential value that state it’s important for the science brought into a court case to be related to the research that underlines it.

[23:56] Kate, you started off as a public defender. Lots of these wrongful convictions unfortunately involve court-appointed attorneys who don’t have the same resources as prosecutors’ officers. Now that you’re in forensics and can see both sides, what needs to be done to level the playing field between public defenders and the prosecutors’ offices?

[26:36] You’re now working as the Executive Director of the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences. How did that come about?

[27:29] What is the overall mission of your new organization?

[27:44] And it was co-founded by Dean Strang and Jerome Buting who are well-known in their defense of Steven Avery documented in the Netflix docuseries Making a Murderer. Major hit. How has that series impact the community fighting wrongful convictions?

[28:40] What was your take on that whole show and your take on Steven Avery’s guilt or innocence? I have to ask!

[31:47] I don’t know if you can track this or anecdotally… are people now more likely to believe forensic science can be flawed after watching series like Making a Murderer?

[32:40] Are Dean and Jerry still defending people accused of crimes or are they more focused on the project you’re working on?

[33:20] Make sure to check out all the good work the Center for Integrity in Forensic Sciences is up to — along with their social media — on their website!

[33:59] Anyone in the criminal justice system can receive training on these issues — prosecutors, judges, people facing criminal charges. In rare cases, they also get involved as co-counsel to litigate a particular issue.

[35:09] Kate, thank you so much for being on and doing this work. We appreciate all you do!

[35:36] If you know someone who would benefit from seeing this information, share this episode and make sure you subscribe to get updates! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening. Have a great day!

Do you enjoy sugary, deep-fried treats? What about a nice, relaxing drink after a long day? Thanks to Detroit City Distillery’s palate-tickling paczki vodka, you can have both at the same time! In this intoxicating episode, distillery co-owner Michael Forsyth discusses how the concoction is steeped Detroit’s Polish heritage, explains the innovative pastry-to-vodka distilling process, and updates us on business progress throughout the pandemic. Bonus content— Mike and team conduct an in-office vodka tasting!

Show Notes

[00:40] Michael Forsyth, co-owner of Detroit City Distillery — welcome back to Open Mike!

[00:50] Last time you were here, you provided some bourbon that was very good that I restocked several times. But you had mentioned you had amazing paczki-flavored vodka and yet you sold so many of them you weren’t able to share any with me! You sold out 2,000 bottles in 4.5 hours last February, is that true?

[02:13] Tell us about your business and what you’ve been up to since the pandemic!

[03:52] Bottle sales this past pandemic year compared to a normal year… are they up, down, flat, what’s happening?

[04:35] Bars were closed, but people purchased so much alcohol from liquor stores that business was actually up compared to the previous year.

[05:37] We’re talking about Paczki Day, which is coming up, February 16th. Do you want to tell our listeners about Fat Tuesday and what it’s all about?

[06:22] Detroit City Distillery is partial to New Palace Bakery in Hamtramck, a local, 100-year-old institution.

[07:18] You love paczkis and you love alcohol… what made you decide to put together the proverbial chocolate and the peanut butter?

[09:13] Has anybody copied you yet?

[10:23] You showed me last year of the paczkis smushed up in the alcohol, and it looked kind of gross and good at the same time! But you strain out the paczkis and then it burns off, right?

[11:34] On that note, you’re making my mouth water. So I want to introduce you to two of the people who helped the alcohol industry sell all of those bottles last year — Jami and Ryan who work here at the law firm! I thought rather than drinking alone in my office, I would have them in here and sample it and give us their opinions!

[12:50] I like the bottle, especially the sticker of the paczki on the back!

[13:15] It’s 88 proof — how about you explain what that means while I pour for my friends?

[13:55] Most vodka is proofed at 80, so this is going to give you a little more bang for your buck.

[14:34] Alright… what’s “cheers” in Polish?

[14:44] Wow, that’s smooth! I don’t usually drink vodka straight — this is really good!

[15:18] You can distill anything into vodka because it’s essentially pure alcohol. You can make it out of potatoes, wheat, rye, grapes. Potato vodka is often the smoothest, a “blank canvas.”

[16:25] Jami loves it — it’s much smoother than the vodka she normally drinks.

[16:55] Ryan agrees — it doesn’t have the burn going down. The raspberry flavor comes through, but you can actually taste the doughiness of the pastry.

[17:38] This might be good just on the rocks… would you mix this with anything?

[18:19] Detroit City Distillery does a riff on a White Russian with this vodka. They use Bailey’s instead of Kahlua and grate cinnamon over the top.

[19:04] There’s another drink called the Polish Daisy that’s the paczki vodka, Cocchi Americano (a fortified wine), lemon, and vanilla syrup. They’ll be bottling and selling this as a bottled cocktail.

[22:37] These pre-bottled cocktails you’re selling — where can I go out and buy those?

[22:54] Purchase cocktails on the Detroit City Distillery website, and pick it up in person or curbside at their tasting room! They’re open Wednesday-Sunday.

[23:29] Some of your liquor is available at local liquor stores and supermarkets. Will these bottled cocktails and paczki vodka be sold at these locations as well?

[24:21] Last year, people were calling from Poland, asking how they could get their hands on the paczki vodka! In Michigan, bars are not allowed to ship alcohol, but Woods Wholesale Wine in Grosse Pointe is licensed to ship alcohol out-of-state (but not in state, ironically).

[25:11] It feels like we need a law change in Michigan… how are we one of the only states that can’t ship alcohol?

[25:56] Jami and Ryan just refilled their glasses, so that’s a compliment right there! And then they’re going to try and do some work around the firm after this… So if you call the firm and Jami answers and sounds a little happy, you know why!

[26:28] What was your biggest seller last year?

[27:03] Are you guys sending out newsletters? How are you getting the word out?

[27:57] Cheers, Michael! Happy Paczki Day, and hopefully you’ll sell out just as quick as last year.

[28:32] Thank you for watching this installment of Open Mike: Alcohol Edition. I’m going to start slurring my words in a minute. If you know someone who likes alcohol, vodka, or paczkis, share this episode and make sure you subscribe to get updates! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening. Take care!

Note: at the time of production, Detroit City Distillery’s vodka had not yet been released. When it was released on February 1st, 2021, the entire stock sold out in 22 minutes.

Mike McCormick is a dedicated father, husband, and community leader committed to teaching developing male minds the essence of authentic masculinity.

Our antiquated, social norms often compel men to resist vulnerability, withdraw, and insist everything is within their control, while larger questions of what it means to be a man go unanswered.

Many men reach adulthood without the emotional skillset or sense of identity required to properly function in the world — they’re little kids trapped in a big kids’ bodies.

In order to combat this cultural deficiency, McCormick curated ManQuest, a spiritual approach geared toward transforming teenaged boys into men of courage, empathy, and integrity while strengthening bonds with their fathers and other male mentors.

This episode is a must-watch for anyone with teenaged sons — the two Mikes discuss everything from media influences on male development, hurdles that deter holistic connection with our sons, and actionable methodologies to help navigate the path to authentic manhood.

Show Notes

[00:29] Mike McCormick’s background and bio as author of Manquest: Leading Teenage Boys into Manhood and founder of McCormick Basketball.

[01:49] Welcome to the show, Mike! You wrote a book and accompanying program called Manquest — what is Manquest and why is it so important?

[02:47] What are the hurdles in our way that prevent us from doing a better job of raising our sons?

[03:52] I imagine social media over the last ten years hasn’t helped. I know raising daughters in the time of social media has been difficult… raising sons must be even harder.

[05:19] Some dads may be listening to this and thinking, “This is uncomfortable… I’m not quite sure how to do this…” What’s your advice to help them get out of that discomfort and talking to their sons?

[06:11] Lots of parents, including yourself, struggle with wanting to be friends with their kids vs. being a disciplinarian, administering tough love, and giving out advice. How do you advise the fathers and mentors you coach on the difference between being a friend and being a parent?

[08:31] Tell us more about the Manquest program! Is there a religious aspect to this program?

[08:56] The book is spiritual, not religious — it’s suited for people who are of faith as well as those who do not follow a specific faith.

[09:37] What is “authentic masculinity?”

[10:27] It can be boiled down into Five Guideposts, which are the “essence” of what it means to be a man: Lead Courageously, Pretend About Nothing, Protect Your Heart, Engage in Deep and Meaningful Relationships, Stay Awake!

[12:39] Those are really good reminders for all of us. Your book also talks about “Rugged Truths.” What does that mean? Can you give us a few examples?

[14:16] The Rugged Truths are basically individual points that examine the realities surrounding the Five Guideposts. While the Guideposts are the goal, the Rugged Truths are the harsh facts that life isn’t fair, we all go through periods of doubt and darkness, and that we aren’t going to be able to embody the Guideposts at all times. But we are still able to and need to get up when we’re knocked down.

[16:50] Because of our archaic cultural norms, teenaged boys are rarely going to demonstrate the vulnerability to reach out and ask their fathers or mentors what it means to be a man. They’re compelled to act like they “have it all together.”

[17:49] Manhood is taught, it is not caught. Men are made, they’re not born.

[18:00] Are you finding the boys want to talk about these issues? Or is this something you have to convince them to talk about and realize the importance of?

[18:55] Movies are a great way to unlock conversation and father-son bonding.

[19:35] This makes me think… in the Jewish faith, once you hit thirteen, you become a man — that’s it. In your program, when do you see the boys entering manhood? Is there a specific age, or is it different for everyone?

[21:04] Being a man is not a specific moment in time. It’s about choosing to live as a man. It’s a daily, moment-to-moment decision that we all have.

[21:42] You mentioned movies… what are some of the best movies that can create an automatic connection and open up lines of communication?

[24:24] You also have a daughter… is that the next book? Is “Womanquest” next?

[27:00] It’s our responsibility to step up and provide these boys what they need to become men, because they’re struggling.

[27:28] Make sure to check Mike’s work on the Manquest website, shoot him an email with questions, and read his book, available on the site or Amazon!

[28:56] Thank you for being so passionate about this, writing the book, and doing what you do, Mike. Thanks so much for being on Open Mike today.

[29:22] Mike McCormick, Manquest — I advise you to check it out! If you know anybody who would gain benefit from this episode, please tell them about it! Comment, like, subscribe — we’re already over 2 million downloads and we’re approaching our magic 100th episode! Thank you for being here, thank you for watching, and stay tuned for more!

In 1980, Iowan man William Beeman was accused of murdering a woman named Michiel Winkel. However, Winkel was seen by several witnesses for days after the alleged time of her murder. Despite this testimony, Beeman has remained in prison for the last forty years.

Enter Erica Nichols Cook, the Director Wrongful Conviction Division at the Iowa State Public Defender.

Cook has spent the last several years attempting to get Beeman a new trial based on previous, possibly intentionally undisclosed evidence — evidence that could exonerate him. In this installment, she rehashes the outlandish circumstances of the case, provides updates on its appeal status, and discusses the challenges of reforming the criminal justice system in one of the most immutable states in the country.

Show Notes

[00:18] Backgrounds of Erica Nichols Cook and Jeff Wright.

[01:23] Thank you both for coming on the show! Erica, I’m going to start with you. As Director of the Wrongful Conviction Division (WCD) in Iowa’s Office of the State Public Defender, how serious is the problem of innocent people being locked up in America, in your opinion?

[01:49] Throughout the world, there have been 2,700 exonerations since 1989, only 16 of which were in Iowa.

[2:20] Sounds like Iowa is a little bit behind the times… on Open Mike, we’ve talked to many people who deal with the conviction integrity units inside the prosecutor’s office. You are inside the defender’s office, (Jeff Wright who is on the podcast with us) which is the complete opposite. I don’t quite understand it, because you guys are the defenders of these people — of course you think these people are wrongfully convicted… so what good does it do? Jeff, I’m going to direct that question to you.

[3:30] So the difference is you have a department inside the Public Defender’s Office that specifically looks at post-conviction cases. This started in about 2015 — what led to this division being created?

[06:49] Do you guys still have private attorneys who can handle criminal cases, a court-appointed system?

[07:22] Not every state has a state-run public defender’s office — Michigan doesn’t have one. I’ve asked several criminal defense attorneys why that is. Do you think it’s important to have one overseer of all the public defenders in the state, as opposed to on a county-wide basis?

[08:39] What are some of the recurring issues that have led to so many innocent people going to prison? You mentioned there are less than 20 in Iowa, which is shockingly low… you know there are hundreds, if not thousands more. What are some trends that you’re seeing?

[09:21] You’re talking about Brady violations… a lot of our listeners don’t know what that means — could you give us a brief lesson on that?

[11:16] That’s a fascinating process, I’ve never heard of a deposition in a criminal case. That means you can sit with a police officer, detective, or investigator and ask if there’s any exculpatory evidence. Based on their truth and veracity, you get what they tell you… whether or not it’s the right authority person. Am I interpreting this correctly? Because it all sounds very strange!

[13:31] It sounds like you need a law change, and you have a friendly lieutenant governor there… but if they’re not going to hand you a report, how do they comply with Brady?

[14:01] It sounds like a waste of time, money, legal resources… you might have twenty people to depose — who has the time for that, especially if you’re deposed or a court-appointed attorney?

[14:54] What’s the recipe for successfully finding the right experts and preventing wrongful convictions in the future?

[15:52] You talk about violation of due process… are you referring to the 1980 case of William Beeman? Let’s dive into it.

[20:42] Was the interrogation recorded? Or was there any evidence tying him to the crime scene?

[22:05] The one piece of evidence you haven’t talked about yet — and tell me if I read your briefs wrong — there were SEVEN eyewitnesses who saw the victim after the time frame during which she was allegedly killed.

[22:59] Two of the exculpatory witnesses were also hypnotized by law enforcement to get more information about Michiel Winkel’s whereabouts.

[23:50] In 2019, prosecutors turned over an 853-page investigative report after a judge ordered discovery to obtain DNA testing of a semen sample located at the scene of the crime. In this document, they found eyewitnesses accounts that would have corroborated two other eyewitness accounts of seeing Winkel out and about AFTER the time period in which Beeman allegedly killed her. The trial attorneys did not have any of this information available to them before they went to trial on behalf of Beeman.

[24:45] So the jury did hear from two or three witnesses that she was alive after the date prosecution said she was killed. That was actually argued and presented, and they still didn’t believe it?

[25:30] The body was not kept in a cooler between the time it was located and when an autopsy was conducted the next day. The medical examiner who conducted the autopsy was a family practice doctor, who wasn’t experienced in forensics.

[26:30] The body was in a stage of rigor mortis that corroborated other timeline witnesses that saw Winkel after the alleged time of her death.

[27:04] What is the state saying now? Why are there still roadblocks? Why is there no honest prosecutor stepping up to help exonerate this man, what is going on there?

[29:26] When a free society decides to imprison its people, it needs to do everything within its power to ensure that they’re guilty. And if there is anything that determines later that they’re not, it needs to be given full weight and evaluated.

[30:10] It feels like every day I’m getting a notification that someone has been exonerated. The momentum is here, but it doesn’t seem like Iowa has caught up yet. My question is… have you been in front of a judge with this new evidence? What did they say?

[32:27] So the court of appeals hasn’t ruled… how is the makeup of your Supreme Court — I assume pretty Republican? Is your governor a Republican? Lieutenant governor as well? He seems pretty sympathetic as a former defender, though…

[34:22] I’ve become friends with some exonerees here in Michigan, and some of their stories go back to a newspaper columnist who took interest in their story and got the attention of the public on their side. Has this man received good public attention in Iowa yet?

[36:09] The right person has to hear it, and the right person has to get mad. This DNA evidence is so important, and there are so many innocence clinics just focusing on DNA… I assume you haven’t searched their evidence room?

[36:30] They HAVE searched the evidence room. There are boxes from 1979, but not 1980. There is no box labeled “Beeman” or “Winkel” and no explanation.

[37:16] How old is Mr. Beeman these days?

[37:40] Thank you both for your work on the Beeman case. Please let me know what happens with the court of appeals. Let’s try to get some publicity out there so people know what’s happening. Best of luck and keep fighting.

[38:28] Thank you for watching Open Mike. If anybody you know is interested or experienced in these cases, please forward this episode to them. We really appreciate your support. Take care.

David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer are spouses, attorneys at Rudolf Widenhouse law firm, and co-hosts of the popular podcast Abuse of Power. However, they may both be best known for their work on North Carolina vs. Peterson, a bizarre, 15-year-long case that was documented on the Netflix smash-hit, The Staircase. In this don’t-miss episode of Open Mike, Rudolf and Pfeiffer reflect on subjects omitted by the docuseries, including: the challenges of working on a highly publicized case with a documentary crew, what they retrospectively would have done differently to ensure justice, and how their client, Michael Peterson, is faring five years after the case’s conclusion.

Show Notes

[00:50] David Rudolf and Sonya Pfeiffer, thank you both for being here with us on Open Mike! I have so many questions for you, I’ve been reading about your history, and so many exciting things you’ve been a part of — things we’ve been trying to cover on Open Mike with all the wrongful exonerations…

[01:07] David, let’s dive right in. You’ve been an attorney for many years and have always fought for the little guy. What has driven you to those cases?

[02:32] Sonya, I recognize you from the Netflix series Abuse of Power. You had a prominent role as a reporter in the series — now you’re a lawyer, you guys are married, and you have this great podcast… tell us about that journey and where you are now.

[05:19] What a journey! After law school you met David during the Peterson trial, is that true?

[05:49] Did you guys start dating after the Peterson trial, during the Peterson trial, am I allowed to ask that question?

[07:46] I assume with some of your current cases, you’re dealing with the press. How are you finding that? Are you good at that, or is it difficult?

[10:21] Before we hop into the Peterson case, Netflix, and your podcast, I have a question about consistent problems you’ve seen in the many, many years you’ve been doing criminal defense… on our podcast, we’ve now interview five exonerees who have collectively sent over 100 years in prison for crimes they absolutely did not commit… As a lawyer of thirty years who’s new to criminal defense, I’m seeing consistent inequity in our justice system, and I’m curious what you’re seeing on a day-to-day basis and whether you think we’re getting better?

[12:07] The root cause of such inequity may be confirmation bias, the tendency to seek out information that reinforces previously established beliefs. In a legal context where evidence may be weak, this can manifest in pressuring false confessions out of suspects, junk science, or tampered evidence.

[14:57] If you’ve not checked out the Netflix series The Staircase, about the Peterson trial, you need to check it out.

[15:25] How did you get involved in the case? Did you know someone involved, or were you one of the best resources around and were recruited?

[17:48] How did the Netflix series come about and how did the production crew convince you to give them behind-the-scenes access? Because if any of that information came to light while the case was active, the case would have died!

[22:39] Nothing was staged for the film, right? You would have proceeded the way you would have whether or not the film crews were there?

[24:00] Sonya, how fascinating was that for you to watch after the trial, seeing how they came up with their legal theories and conducted investigations?

[25:49] Thank you for putting that in context — the original Netflix series The Staircase came out in 2004 on the Sundance Channel, and then five additional episodes were released by Netflix in 2018.

[26:26] Overall, were you please with how the series came out?

[27:46] The team you put together… you definitely don’t put a team like that together for every case. On the big ones you do. This was a Dream Team. You had some really good defense attorneys, friends and family, jury consultants, pathologists… For example, you flew one in from Detroit — Werner Spitz, the former Oakland County medical examiner who’s world-renowned. A legend. How did you find him?

[30:12] Your facial expressions in some of those first episodes are so compelling. You can almost see into your brain when you’re describing your theories to your jury consultants… I don’t think people realize how much is involved in making those tough decisions. And you don’t know if you made the right decision until the jury comes in and delivers their verdict!

[32:54] The five exonerees I’ve interviewed, none of their defense attorneys had the qualities you described. Nor did they have any assembled teams defending them.

[36:28] How do you instill the passion you’re describing in these attorneys so they become the most effective public defenders possible?

[39:31] The Staircase is so well done, and so thorough. It should be mandatory viewing for law students. Maybe it will be one day.

[40:14] For the fans who have seen this docuseries and may go back and re-watch…  are there one or two things on the case you would have done differently?

[42:35] When you have people who are perjuring themselves and confirmation bias, it’s hard to prove your theories, especially when you’re in the throes of it! It took you eight or nine years to thoroughly assert Michael Peterson’s innocence. But when you’re in it, and you have an uneducated, poor person up against a powerful attorney, it’s hard to prove your point.

[44:44] When people make up evidence or perjure themselves, it’s called noble cause corruption. The reason they’re doing something wrong is that they believe they have the right person — the ends justify the means.

[45:31] Did you interview the jury after the verdict?

[46:37] The second trial you were granted never went… you sent many months working for your client and got him an Alford plea, which we don’t have in Michigan. Can you explain what that is?

[48:49] Was it hard to convince Michael to take that plea?

[49:50] How’s he doing with his children and the family unit he had? Are you still in contact with him?

[51:03] Whether you think Michael is guilty or not, that’s not the point of the docuseries. The point is to show the criminal justice system, illuminate the issues in it, and to demonstrate that he didn’t get a fair trial.

[51:46] What do you really believe happened? It may not be a fair question… it’s such a convoluted, crazy story.

[55:19] David, you literally learned about the owl theory after closing arguments?

[57:12] All these years later, we’re allowed to play Monday morning quarterback… if you were allowed to do the trial again, that would be your theory?

[57:45] Did they check for evidence of an owl attack on her head?

[58:16] Were the feathers in her hair ever analyzed to determine they were owl feathers? Are they in an evidence locker somewhere?

[59:03] Tell me if I’m, wrong, but there wasn’t a single piece of evidence proving an intruder, there’s never been a weapon, there are bizarre marks on her head that don’t seem to be caused by a person, Michael isn’t covered in any evidence or DNA… it was almost like a phantom committed the murder! Those marks on her head may have been hard to reckon with.

[1:00:50] David, tell us about your podcast Abuse of Power!

[1:06:22] Thank you for being on the podcast, I’d love to do more episodes with you. If you have availability in the coming months, I’m going to give you a call

[1:06:50] Make sure to check out Abuse of Power and The Staircase on Netflix, everyone! David, thank you for your time.

[1:07:08] Thank you for watching Open Mike, I hope you enjoyed this episode! Some of the questions I asked today I’m sure they did not ask when the trial was live — if you think I missed any questions, let me know because it sounds like we’re going to have David back on. Like, comment, subscribe, download. We’re looking forward to a great 2021 season and we have lots of great things lined up for you! Thank you for watching, thank you for listening!

As a former writer for The Tonight Show, humor columnist, and podcast personality, Frank King is a natural comedian. However, similar to many comedians, he has battled depression and suicidal ideation his entire life, conditions that run in his family.

Frank realized that his comedic skills provided him a casual platform through which he could reach and educate people on mental illness — when people are laughing, they’re learning. So, he drew upon his personal experiences with depression, framed them through a lens of comedy, and launched a career as a Suicide Prevention and Postvention Public Speaker and Trainer.

While high in entertainment value, Frank’s keynotes are also highly impactful. By blending comedy and education, they start conversations, create a sense of community, and give voice to the feelings and experiences of those who have been affected by mental illness and suicide.

In this episode of Open Mike, Frank reflects on his lengthy comedy career, discusses the state of the pandemic-affected speaking industry, and imparts some serious insight on mental illness, peppering in jokes all along the way.

If you or someone you know is suffering from depression, call 1-800-273-TALK (8255) to reach a 24-hour crisis center, or text MHA to 741741.

Show Notes

[00:24] Frank King’s background and bio.

[01:57] Welcome to Open Mike, Frank!

[02:23] That was quite an intro I just read! You’ve done it all, and now you’re doing TEDx Talks on suicide, comedy — I don’t even know where to begin! Let’s start with The Tonight Show — who was the host during the time you were there?

[03:57] You got to work with and meet a bunch of celebrities, Jerry Seinfeld, Ellen DeGeneres, Kevin James… they came to the studio with their own jokes, so would you just meet them when they were in the building, working on the show?

[04:46] You were writing on The Tonight Show, so were you ever on The Tonight Show?

[05:31] Tell us one of your favorite bits or jokes you sold, whatever comes to mind!

[06:55] Now you’re doing TED Talks… tell us how you got into that and the topics you speak on.

[09:05] As someone who has hereditary Major Depressive Disorder and experiences moments of suicidal ideation, Frank realized he could speak on suicide prevention if he got some education on it.

[11:07] So, people are hiring you to help them get TEDx Talks?

[11:21] Tell our listeners and viewers the difference between a TED Talk and a TEDx Talk.

[13:11] You’re talking about a very tough subject, you’re showing vulnerability, and adding some humor… was the first time you took the stage nerve-wracking?

[14:22] What are a few of the takeaways from your talk? So people can search you out on TED and YouTube…

[15:45] What’s the topic of your sixth TEDx Talk coming up in February?

[16:38] Frank’s next talk is about depressive realism, a suggested attribute of people with depression that allows them to see the world as it is, unaffected by “rose-colored glasses.” The idea is to change the frame through which we view depression — not every aspect of it is negative.

[17:56] You don’t get paid for TEDx Talks, correct?

[18:56] What are you striving for? I imagine the goal is number of viewers — what’s a successful talk vs. a not-so-successful talk?

[21:00] We’ve had five people on the show who have been wrongfully convicted, and some of them may want to do a TEDx Talk one day. They may not necessarily be able to afford to hire a coach but would benefit from some advice. What should they do in order to book a TEDx Talk some day?

[25:42] How does one translate a lifelong experience, a story that takes hours and hours to share, into a fifteen-minute talk?

[27:09] If you go to Frank’s coaching website, you can check out a PDF called 6 Things That Will KILL Your Chances Of Landing A TEDx Talk for more guidance on story structure.

[27:40] I assume you’re doing TEDx virtually now?

[28:06] Once you conduct a TEDx Talk, how do you leverage it?

[29:40] Are you getting paid speaking gigs from these talks?

[31:20] The professions with the five highest suicide rates are: construction, mining, excavation, fishing/forestry, dentists/veterinarians/physicians.

[33:25] Right now is a good time to apply to TEDx because many people believe talks are no longer occurring, which is not the case. Many are occurring virtually. Additionally, the National Speakers Association estimates 25-40% of current speakers will not be working in the industry following the pandemic. There will be a pent-up demand and fewer speakers, so now is a good time to get in position if you are interested in being a speaker.

[35:29] Thank you to Frank King for appearing on Open Mike! If you’re interested in a TED Talk or know someone who has an interesting story, make sure to check out his speaking website and coaching website. Thank you for supporting Open Mike!

At age seventeen, Jeffrey Deskovic was wrongfully sentenced to life in prison for the rape and murder of a classmate. Authorities knew his DNA did not match that of the actual perpetrator – who would later murder another young woman and mother of two. Nevertheless, they colluded to convict and keep Jeff behind bars for the next 16 years. After his exoneration and release, Jeff successfully sued the responsible parties, and used a substantial portion of the compensation to start The Deskovic Foundation — a non-profit that overturns wrongful convictions and challenges the policies that enable them. Check out this riveting episode of Open Mike to learn more about Jeff’s post-prison life as a lawyer, the Amazon Prime documentary about his case, and how this traumatizing ordeal helped him find his true vocation.

Show Notes

[00:13] Jeffrey’s bio and background

[01:10] Jeff, you were a sixteen-year-old high school student and you were arrested for rape and murder — can you tell us what that was like?

[01:36] What kind of kid were you?

[02:14] Why do you think the police targeted you?

[02:32] Jeff didn’t necessarily fit in at school, so some students referred police to him. When Jeff was emotional over the untimely murder of a classmate, the police misinterpreted that as a sign of guilt. A psychological profile conducted by the NYPD also draw similarities between Jeff’s personal attributes and that of a potential perpetrator.

[03:49] The way you describe those three things… that could have been anybody! There’s no way you could have committed this crime, but I’m reading about a confession you gave while in custody. Tell us about that.

[06:42] After a polygraph and interrogating a terrified Jeff for 6.5-7 hours, police eventually broke Jeff into making a false confession.

[06:51] Did they say you failed the polygraph?

[07:55] After the fact, did you get readouts of this test that showed you came up clean?

[08:18] So you were arrested after you gave this nonsensical confession?

[08:38] You’re an intelligent guy, you went to law school, you’re now helping others in similar positions. Looking back on that confession, can you shed some light on how easy it is to be coerced into giving a false conviction?

[09:55] Was this all on video tape?

[10:15] Are there now laws in most states that confessions must be videotaped?

[10:32] For the sake of time, you had a public defender, were tried by a jury, and convicted… how bad was your public defender?

[12:40] There was some misconduct by a medical examiner, can you give us some details on that?

[13:07] Six months after an initial examination, the medical examiner claimed to have remembered he found evidence the deceased victim was “promiscuous” in an attempt to help the prosecutor explain why DNA found at the scene didn’t match Jeff’s.

[13:40] Was there prosecutorial misconduct other than that?

[14:24] You had a pretty famous prosecutor, yes?

[15:37] How long was the jury trial? You’re incarcerated the whole time?

[16:04] Did you recant the confession right away and tell your family and lawyer?

[16:59] So, you’re tried as an adult, convicted at sixteen-years-old, and sentenced for seventeen to twenty-five years?

[17:28] You’re seventeen, you go to prison, are in solitary confinement for twenty-eight days at one point… how horrible was that? Was that the worst part of the experience?

[18:32] Being in prison at seventeen years old… and with staff passing around pamphlets to let everyone know you’re this horrible sex offender… that had to have been the scariest thing in the whole world!

[19:21] How did you get Barry Scheck and The Innocence Project to take a look at your case?

[20:06] Tell us about the DNA. It’s a little bit confusing… Your DNA wasn’t on the scene… what was the new evidence that was presented?

[21:15] After technological advancements in DNA testing that allowed for more specificity, it became apparent the DNA belonged to Stephen Cunningham, who had also killed and raped another person. He eventually admitted to the crime Jeff had been accused of.

[21:51] In the Amazon Prime Documentary, Conviction, you talk at length about getting that news. What was that experience like?

[24:54] The feeling of being released — how do you describe that?

[25:28] How was your family? Did they coalesce and reengage with you after all this?

[26:58] Jeff had infrequent visitors throughout his prison time, other than his mother who would visit every six months. He was putting ads in the local Sacramento newspaper for pen pals because he was so lonely and bored. He did find a pen pal who provided him moral support and kept him from going over the edge of loneliness.

[27:51] It sounds like your family basically abandoned you… but you get out of prison, your wrongful conviction case gets a financial settlement, and then you decide to go to law school?

[28:25] It took five years to obtain his settlement, during which Jeff struggled to find employment, housing, building social situations… but he was doing advocacy work in the meantime, and obtained scholarships to help him finish his education. Once he got his settlement, he used the funds to start the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice to help others who are wrongfully convicted and pursue policy changes. As of October 26, 2020, Jeff was officially admitted to the Bar.

[30:02] How did you like law school?

[32:15] You started this amazing foundation, the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice and have so far freed nine different people who were wrongfully convicted for different reasons, which is AMAZING. You’re using your settlement money to help others… I’m blown away by you. Thank you for what you’re doing for these people, selflessly. What is it about you that is compelling you to do this?

[35:17] Jeff is able to remain free of angry and bitterness because he’s already lost so much of his life and doesn’t see any point in not enjoying what he has left.

[35:44] It’s truly amazing. And you’re not only helping nine or ten clients, you’re pushing for policy change. What kind of traction have you gotten there?

[36:01] Advocacy efforts helped pass a New York state law making video recording mandatory during interrogations, as well as ID reform and DNA database expansion.

[38:15] What kind of team do you have working with you and so many initiatives?

[40:46] It’s unbelievable. When people hear these stories, one thing they always ask about is immunity. Where are we in this country in holding bad judges, prosecutors, and cops accountable for their dirty tactics in wrongfully convicting people. Is there any movement forward?

[44:01] How is your life these days? How is Jeffrey Deskovic doing now?

[45:16] You mentioned chess… did you like The Queen’s Gambit?

[45:39] What is the Queen’s Gambit, do you use it in your move?

[46:12] Jeff normally opens with the French Defence, rather than the Queen’s Gambit.

[46:27] Thank you for all the work you do and thank you for appearing on Open Mike. I hope everyone watching spreads word of your advocacy, and donates to your cause. Congratulations on becoming a lawyer, I know you’ll do amazing things.

[47:19] Share this episode, check out the documentary Conviction on Amazon Prime, donate some money if you can. Thank you for watching and supporting Open Mike!

Brian Banks is a highly sought-after community educator, author, law school graduate, and former Michigan State Representative. But despite his tremendous career, he has experienced an equally tremendous degree of hardship along the way, from a dysfunctional childhood, to an adolescence marred by fraud charges, to corrupt political forces ousting him from office. In this episode of Open Mike, Banks discusses his personal struggles in depth and reflects on ways they’ve endowed him with the talent and tenacity to continuously create his own success.

Show Notes

[00:35] Brian Banks's intro and bio taken from his book, It Had 2 Happen.

[01:35] Hi, Brian, thank you for being on Open Mike!

[2:28] Our governor instituted some new reform in the no-fault arena, for no reason. What do you think about the no-fault changes that are currently going into effect?

[04:50] Why do you think she gave a gift to the Republicans and insurance companies without thinking about her Michigan constituents? Do you have any insight on that?

[08:13] You have a fascinating story and you’re very open about your story… You’re very open about the criminal activity you unfortunately got involved in, and you took responsibility. So, let’s dig into this — you grew up in Detroit, you went to Denby High School, and you dropped out your senior year. Give us a brief version about how that happened.

[10:15] Due to a troubled home life, Brian started skipping class for weeks on end, after transferring to a different school. He eventually got a job, started hanging out with the wrong people, and started committing credit card and check fraud.

[12:43] Eventually, Brian was charged on seventeen counts of fraud.

[14:31] Eventually, he was sentenced to a year probation with the first six months on a tether, in lieu of jail… the tether was impeding his ability to land a job, so Brian successfully wrote, filed, and argued a motion to remove the tether. The next day, he obtained his GED and enrolled in Wayne State University, with aspirations of becoming an attorney.

[18:03] What year did you get into law school?

[18:28] Did you take the bar exam?

[18:44] For those who don’t know, Michigan lawyers have to go through a process called “character and fitness” where they’re vetted to ensure they’re up to state standards to practice law. Because of Brian’s history, they would not let him be a licensed attorney in the state.

[20:31] When someone experiences poverty, it’s a domino effect. Pair that with a felony conviction, it’s incredibly hard to obtain gainful employment.

[21:36] When are you giving it another shot?

[22:17] You go through the process, they pass you, and then you have to take the bar exam again?

[22:59] Let’s talk about your time in the Michigan state legislature… can you tell us why you decided to run for Congress, here in Michigan?

[26:09] During Brian’s first term, he had 100% attendance and a 100% voting record. Because of his experiences, he was compelled to make sure his constituents’ voices were represented at the capitol. The first community event he held was for ex-offenders, to help get their records expunged.

[27:03] In 2014, Brian was re-elected with more votes than in his 2012 run. He was also elected by his colleagues as chairman of the Detroit Black Caucus.

[27:13] Let’s talk about that — a very powerful Democratic caucus. What was that like, walking in as chairman after all that you went through?

[28:36] As chairman, Brian was essentially the most powerful African American in the state legislature. He started making enemies because he started taking some unpopular positions.

[29:03] What do you think were your most unpopular decisions in 2015, leading up to your 2016 experience?

[31:38] You’re thwarting a powerful Detroit mayor and have an upcoming election for your third term… as this is happening, people are running against you… there are rumors that people within your own party are putting others up against you… and one day, you’re sitting at home, and get a knock on your door from a couple FBI agents. Take us through that story.

[32:37] Do you believe the mayor put someone up against you?

[34:11] Brian was accused by the then Republican Attorney General of improperly paying back a 2010 loan, so he hired an attorney to represent him. His attorney convinced him to plead guilty, after a long, drawn-out process.

[34:55] Brian was ultimately able to get the felony charges dropped, but he had to resign from office. It was clear that the entire process was political, and other colleagues wanted him out of the way.

[35:48] While many wrote Brian off, he started a successful consulting agency and still conducts educational, community outreach events. He realized he doesn’t need a title to serve.

[36:43] Do you think you’re going to run again for a third term?

[38:46] If you want to learn more about Brian’s life in detail, check out his book, It Had 2 Happen!

[39:05] Thank you to Brian Banks for coming on Open Mike!

[40:52] If you think someone would enjoy this episode, pass it along, subscribe, like. And tell us who you’d like to be on Open Mike! We will bring them to you. Thank you for watching and listening!

At the age of 16, Mario Bueno was convicted of second-degree murder and spent the next nineteen years in prison — three of which were in solitary confinement. Today, he is a reform expert, author, scholar, and co-founder of LUCK, Inc., an organization dedicated toward mentoring vulnerable populations within the Detroit Metropolitan Area. On this episode of Open Mike, Mario takes the reins and describes the effects prison had on his formative years, the spiritual awakenings he experienced along the way, and community outreach programs he’s currently engaged with.

Show Notes

[00:13] Mario Bueno’s background and bio

[00:59] Mario, welcome to the show!

[01:28] At age sixteen you were convicted of second-degree murder of a twenty-seven-year-old drug dealer… did you please guilty to that murder?

[02:49] You maintained your innocence, but you were found guilty in the second trial?

[04:02] It sounds like, now, you admit that you were involved in that murder?

[05:35] One of the problems with the criminal justice system is that it pits victim and perpetrator against each other and can prevent the offender from truly owning up to what they’ve done.

[06:07] We have an 87% recidivism rate within nine years of someone’s release from prison.

[07:46] To be able to truly convey remorse to a victim or victim’s family is restorative justice. Mario’s nonprofit, Luck, Inc. focuses on this type of justice through peer mentoring of at-risk populations.

[08:45] What was prison like once you admitted responsibility and reached out to the victim’s family? Were you trying to help other prisoners come to their truth as well? What was that process like?

[12:27] The year you spent in Oakland County solitary as a sixteen-year-old… was that the worst year out of the twenty you spent in prison?

[13:09] We need to reexamine the practice of solitary confinement — it’s inhumane.

[15:11] It took a few years for your personal and spiritual transformation to really sink in and manifest, it sounds like?

[16:08] Mario wrote a thesis titled, Incarceration of Adolescents in Adult Prisons: Adults’ Recollections of their Experiences and its Impact on Adult Adjustment in which he measured juveniles who were housed with adults and how they cope with the outside world once they’re released. One of the findings was that in order for juveniles to survive an adult prison, they have to become “conscious sociopaths” as a coping mechanism.

[20:20] There’s so much to unpack. You’re a McNair Scholar, creator of a nonprofit with twelve employees, author of two books — Reformed: Memoir of a Juvenile Killer and Never Going Back, which you wrote during the pandemic lockdown…

[21:58] There are 2,400 parolees in Detroit at any given time and 75% of them are unemployed. There are 8,400 people on felony probationers at any given time and 45% are unemployed. Mario had to create his own employment opportunities because, even with his prolific output, he’s unable to apply for and get a traditional job.

[26:29] You said you were kicked out of one of your prisons… why was that? It was making money stuff, not violent stuff?

[30:30] Mario details the poker and tobacco schemes he ran in prison and how a heart-to-heart with a warden influenced him to change his perspective and his behavior while he fulfilled the rest of his sentence.

[34:40] If you shift your belief system, you can shift cycles you find yourself stuck in.

[34:50] What did you change after coming to that realization?

[36:38] What are you doing right now, through your organizations, to help Detroiters and Michiganders?

[37:11] Mario is a community engagement coordinator for the Youth Justice Fund, servicing juvenile lifers who are returning back to the community. Luck, Inc. is also helping parolees find housing after extended sentences and helping guide them along their journey.

[41:17] We’re spending $2.2 billion on the Michigan Department of Corrections and $123 million on reentry.

[41:48] If you’re a parolee, there are government programs and amazing people like you who can provide support and consulting to help them back on their feet. But if you’re exonerated for a crime you didn’t commit, you get nothing. There are no benefits, the government won’t pay for any personal coaching. Did you know about that difference?

[52:15] Mario, I don’t think we’ve ever had a guest on Open Mike who I’ve let just talk and talk — but your stories and energy are so damn good and infectious and meaningful and powerful! And I commend you for everything you’re doing and everything you’ve learned and how you’re giving back to the community. I smell a movie coming!

[54:08] When we believe we’re designed to succeed, we develop a relationship with self. And a relationship with self that’s defined by love allows us to love others. Hurt people hurt others.

[55:50] The services in our system must be better. A greater percentage of the billions spent on the system has to be allocated toward rehabilitation and helping people.

[56:30] It was an honor to have you on, Mario — go do God’s work!

[56:45] Mario Bueno — there was something about the way he talked and the messaging he delivered that was fascinating and moving. If you know of someone who could be moved by his message, please share, subscribe. Thanks for watching us on Open Mike —until next time!

John S. Cooper is the executive director of Safe & Just Michigan, an organization that advances policies that end Michigan’s over-use of incarceration and promote community safety and healing. As currently constituted, Michigan’s criminal justice system prioritizes punishment, over public safety. Most policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. Check out the latest installment of Open Mike for John’s insights on how we can better advocate for the 2 million Michiganders with criminal records, ways to influence legislators to pass holistic, crime reduction bills, as well as exciting, statewide developments in criminal record expungement.

Show Notes

[00:21] John Cooper’s background and bio as Executive Director of Safe & Just Michigan

[00:53] Welcome to Open Mike, John!

[01:12] Where are you calling in from, so our viewers and listeners are in the know?

[01:47 Before we jump in, what does Safe & Just Michigan do? What are you all about?

[02:55] Is Michigan too tough on criminals?

[03:16] As currently constituted, Michigan’s criminal justice system is about punishment, not public safety — policies emphasize being tough on crime instead of helping people get back on their feet. We hold their criminal records over their heads for the rest of their lives.

[04:48] If there were no prison, what would deter people from committing crimes?

[05:17] Some crimes originate as lack of opportunity. If you throw a poor person into jail for committing a poverty-related crime, nothing is going to change unless you address those underlying problems. When they’re released, it will be worse because they will have fewer job opportunities due to their criminal record. It’s a self-replicating cycle.

[06:16] What does Safe & Just Michigan advocate for instead of prison time?

[06:50] Half of all criminal offenses in Michigan are traffic offenses. The majority of those are low-level misdemeanors, such as driving with a suspended license. 5% of Michigan drivers get their licenses suspended annually. 95% of those suspensions are because the person is too poor to pay a fine. The issue is poverty, not public safety.

[08:09] What is your thought process on drunk driving that doesn’t injure anyone or driving without a valid license? Is jail a deterrent for those types of offenses?

[11:08] Are you working on influencing legislature to change the laws surrounding posting bail?

[11:27] At any given time, there are about 8,000 people in Michigan who are in jail. 50% of them are held pre-trial because they can’t post bail. Most bail postings are less than $5,000 and correlate to low-level misdemeanors. Yet, we have a bail system that operates under the assumption that most people should pay pre-trial, which is inconsistent with our Constitution as shown by the SCOTUS case United States v. Salerno.

[12:53] The Bail Project is a national nonprofit organization that pays bail for people in need, reuniting families and restoring the presumption of innocence. The Bail Project currently operates in 9 cities around the country, including Detroit.

[15:38] 90% of people who post bail show up to their court dates — if you spend that money, you’re going to want it back. People whose bails are paid for courtesy of The Bail Project still show up for court when it’s not their money to recoup.

[16:20] Is it true that Michiganders have longer sentences than other states?

[17:52] 20% of people charged in Michigan are charged habitually. The length of prison sentences has increased dramatically over the last 25 years, partially because lower-level offenders, especially drug offenders, are not being sent to prison as often.

[19:32] Michigan had 37,000 – 38,000 people in the prison system prior to the pandemic. It’s currently down several thousand, although due more to lower of admissions than more parolees… the vast majority of people in the system are ineligible for parole because they haven’t fulfilled terms of their sentences.

[20:45] How many people are in the prison system due to marijuana-related offenses?

[21:44] That brings us to expungement… can you explain what it is, who’s eligible, and what’s going on with expungement in Michigan?

[25:48] There are roughly 2 million people in Michigan with criminal records, yet only 2,000 – 3,000 records are expunged each year.

[26:00] Is every type of felony expungable?

[26:57] Tell us about the recent traffic offense expungement laws that passed — did Safe & Just Michigan play a role in that?

[27:25] The first goal of this bill package is to expand eligibility for the petition process. The second was to bring expungement policy more in line with charging practices.

[29:01] Did these bills make it easier for people to file for an expungement without the expense of an attorney?

[29:18] Michigan has passed a “Clean Slate Bill” where if someone with a criminal record stays out of trouble for ten years, their record will automatically be sealed/expunged.

[29:40] How does someone watching or listening to this episode know how to verify whether they can check “no” on a job or housing application asking about criminal history?

[30:20] Before the bill goes into effect in October 2022, Safe & Just Michigan will create a database/infrastructure where people can check the status of their record and whether their offenses have been sealed.

[34:14] The reality is that every state has hundreds of thousands of people with criminal records and we, as a society have a duty to clean those up so people can move on with their lives.

[34:41] Annually, there are $87 billion in lost productivity that arises from people underemployed or locked out of the labor force due to criminal records. 

[34:54] Over a ten-year period, University of Michigan Law School studied outcomes for people with expunged records. They discovered that within a year of their records being sealed, their incomes, on average, went up 23% and employment rates went up 11%. They also looked at recidivism rates and discovered these people commit crimes at rates equal to or less than the general public.

[36:33] In April this law goes into effect… but it may be a couple years before we see the automatic expungements, yes?

[37:03] In April, the law that advocates for an expanded petition process goes into effect.

[37:27] The State Court Administrative Office has an MC227 form that guides a person through the expungement application process as well as an MC228 form that one would hand to a judge if you successfully navigate the hearing process.

[38:20] If anyone has eligibility under the current law, please apply soon! Historically, it’s a process that takes six-to-nine-months.

[39:15] Thank you to John Cooper for his admirable, hard work and for appearing on Open Mike!

[40:05] Make sure to check out Safe & Just Michigan. If you know someone with a criminal record, forward them this podcast so they can educate themselves on the expungement process.

[40:21] Thanks for checking out Open Mike — we’ll see you next time!

Tricia Rojo Bushnell is the Executive Director of the Midwest Innocence Project, which works to free innocent people convicted of crimes they did not commit. Megan Crane is Co-Director at MacArthur Justice Center, an organization that fights cases to right individual wrongs, and confront racial and social inequality. Together, they have partnered to demand effective and sustainable reform of the criminal justice system. In this episode, they discuss encouraging, new trends in the judicial system, recent wins their organizations have landed, and what the future holds for the American mass incarceration crisis.

Show Notes

[01:03] Welcome to Tricia Rojo Bushnell and Megan Crane!

[01:18] Tricia, let’s start with you! Give us a little bit about your background and The Midwest Innocence Project, the clinic you’re currently working on.

[02:20] Tricia, you are an attorney as well, correct?

[02:59] Megan Crane, what are you up to with the MacArthur Justice Center?

[04:39] The litigation you’re discussing… how does it differ from a normal 6500 Motion that has to be filed for relief from judgment?

[05:54] If there is clear misconduct in their case, many exonerees will file a civil suit against the state, county, police department, etc. if it’s clear there was misconduct throughout the process.

[06:47] Tricia, tell us about this partnership between The Midwest Innocence Project and MacArthur Justice Center and how it helps get people who are wrongfully convicted out of prison.

[08:34] You’re covering five states and the majority is coming out of a single city… what are the trends you’re seeing that are coming out of St. Louis?

[09:12] There have been historic problems with law enforcement in St. Louis… it hasn’t had the same type of reckoning that cities like Chicago and Detroit have had with their police departments and prosecutors’ offices.

[12:44] Is your focus more on prevention of wrongful conviction, or getting the wrongfully convicted released from prison, or both?

[15:54] Michigan does have some great innocence organizations, but who’s advocating the legislature for change?

[16:55] I love that you’re finding these problems in cases and bringing it to legislators’ attentions, urging them to change laws. And it sounds like you’re getting some amazing traction with the legislature and governor in Kansas who are creating and passing these protective laws. Are you finding they’re receptive to your requests?

[18:47] Have you been successful in keeping the corruption of jail house informants to a minimum?

[20:16] Have you had all of those requests passed in any one state?

[20:54] Megan, what are some initiatives you and MacArthur are working on to fix these problems?

[21:39] The Missouri public defender system is run by people trying to do the right thing who haven’t received the bare minimum amount of money from the state to adequately represent clients.

[23:40] People become public defenders because they have a passion for it, but they’re fighting with their hands tied behind their back.

[24:56] The Bail Project is doing incredible work across the nation as a critical tool to prevent needless incarceration oftentimes caused by racial and economic disparities.

[25:31] The lawsuit that you’re talking about — are you gaining traction on that currently?

[26:40] Oftentimes people facing charges are poor, uneducated, and are handed an attorney whose case history is hard to verify… there’s no Google star-rating. In all the cases we’ve looked at, an attorney has been disbarred or reprimanded after wrongful convictions where people have served years behind bars. There’s no system of accountability. What can these people do to protect themselves?

[28:23] Tricia is one of the 2% of American lawyers who are Latina. When you create a public defender’s association or community of lawyers that is predominantly upper-middle class and white, you create an environment of poor communication and cultural barriers that keep lawyers from properly hearing their clients.

[29:15] We’re at a point where we have to be reckoning with the role systemic racism plays in both prosecution and defense attorneys unconsciously improperly representing people of color.

[32:47] It’s very difficult to hold corrupt people within the judicial system accountable because of qualified immunity and the fact that they keep moving and ascending higher in the ranks.

[34:53] MacArthur focuses on the legal aspect of what happens when someone who is wrongfully imprisoned sues the bad actors that led to their conviction. Most of the time the bad actors are insulated and protected by the legal doctrine of qualified immunity. The good news is that there is bipartisan support against qualified immunity and there are jurisdictions across the country looking at ending it.

[37:35] Tricia, you had something exciting happen at your office last week. Can you take us through what happened with your client, Olin Pete Coones?

[40:07] How much time did it take from the time you heard of Pete’s case to the time he got out of prison?

[43:44] Tricia, I was going through the website and saw another client of yours, Michael Politte. Another fourteen-year-old who was wrongly convicted of his mother’s murder and has since spent his life in prison… You’re doing amazing work — if any of our audience want to help, how can they?

[44:12] To help, visit the Midwest Innocence Project website, and you can learn about multiple ways to help. They will soon be releasing their annual report which contains information you can send legislators, clients, prosecutors, asking for them to look into creating conviction integrity units, provide funding for video conferencing for disabled or deaf persons to communicate with their attorneys, amongst many other initiatives.

[45:55] You can also support MacArthur by visiting the MacArthur Justice Center website and going on their wrongful conviction page. Read about their projects and case… because the MacArthur Justice Center and MIP have a partnership, donations made to MIP will also support Macarthur.

[47:25] The Innocence Network will also inform you about innocence organizations within your region and see briefs that are filed, current issues being dealt with, annual conferences, etc.

[47:54] One of the best ways to help is also raise awareness about cases via social media.

[48:10] It’s important to raise awareness because anybody could become a juror, be charged with something, be a witness, or be in some type of position to wield influence over a case.

[48:58] It feels like this issue is “out there” more, and there’s a ground swell of awareness and movement starting to take off. Do you get the same sense?

[50:40] Thank you to Tricia and Megan for being here, it meant a lot!

[51:25] Please donate to these causes if you feel moved by any of these stories and share this episode with those who need to see it. Thank you for watching Open Mike — until next time!

Dr. Jon Gould is an internationally known expert on justice policy, social change, and government reform. An accomplished author, his book The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System was named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. In this episode of Open Mike, Dr. Gould walks us through the complex network of issues that has resulted in a widespread, wrongful conviction crisis affecting up to 5% of all incarcerated people. The only solution may be a comprehensive upheaval of the criminal justice system…

Show Notes

[00:20] Dr. Jon Gould’s background and bio

[00:50] Welcome to Jon Gould!

[01:14] You went to University of Michigan undergrad, Harvard for law school, Harvard for your Master’s, and ph. D at University of Chicago — you may be the smartest person I’ve had on the show!

[01:53] You work at Arizona State University now… where were you before that?

[02:12] Your book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System, was recently named an Outstanding Academic Title by the American Library Association. Tell us why you wrote this book and what you discovered along this journey.

[05:02] A lot of our recent guests have been talking about this groundswell of exposing wrongful convictions. In your opinion, how important is it to expose what’s going on, to try and give our country confidence in the criminal justice system?

[06:23] What are some of the most common reasons for innocent people going to prison?

[07:22] In a study Jon conducted, wrongful incarcerations oftentimes occur when prosecution doesn’t offer strong evidence. It’s counterintuitive…but these cases languish on prosecutors’ desks as they wait for more evidence to come in… they end up taking it to a grand jury, the grand jury ends up indicting… once the case gets into court, juries are much more likely to believe the person is guilty… sometimes defendants will even plead guilty or falsely confess to crimes they didn’t commit.

[08:31] Now that people working in the system have identified several, core causes of wrongful incarcerations, do you think it’s getting better?

[10:30] While sensational instances of wrongful convictions draw media attention, the vast majority of these convictions are inadvertently caused by well-intentioned people working on the case who have simply made mistakes caused by hyper focus or tunnel vision. Because of this, they’re much harder to identify and much harder to prevent.

[13:10] Once you attach yourself to the idea that someone is a suspect, it becomes harder to distance yourself from that notion as more evidence comes in that challenges it.

[16:30] Let’s talk about the near-miss study… It was a three-year study that identified ten statistically significant factors that distinguish a wrongful conviction from a “near-miss.” What were the important findings in this study and what do they mean?

[21:45] A false confession gets you arrested and indicted, but it doesn’t necessarily, on its own, lead to a wrongful conviction — they can be weeded out. The period between indictment and trial is when people can be weeded out of the system before being falsely convicted.

[22:25] That’s fascinating! What’s the second biggest point you took from the study?

[22:40] Almost always, a combination of tunnel vision, poor defense, weak facts, and Brady violations (refusal to turn over exculpatory evidence) lead to wrongful convictions… all factors that lead to wrongful convictions need to be studied and dealt with, not just one or two. It’s a problem that needs to be solved comprehensively.

[27:35] We’re not talking about hundreds… we’re talking about tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people wrongly sitting in prisons, waiting for trial, hoping for attention about their cases to get out. I don’t think anybody wants to see that continue, yet… bad cops, bad prosecutors, bad judges — do you ever see them held accountable?

[29:01] For every person who is wrongly incarcerated, there’s also someone who committed the crime out on the street. Wrongful conviction cases make us less safe as a nation, and they cost us a lot of money each year in tax dollars.

[29:45] Are you teaching these types of topics at ASU? What else do you teach there?

[33:23] While the scandalous cases of intentional corruption within the criminal justice system cast a light on the wrongful incarceration crisis, it’s now time to focus on the tremendous number of cases that may not be as easy to identify.

[36:17] Thank you to Dr. Jon Gould for coming on Open Mike! Make sure to check out his book, The Innocence Commission: Preventing Wrongful Convictions and Restoring the Criminal Justice System.

[36:58] Thanks for watching Open Mike!

On April 15, 1994, two men in Kansas City, Kansas were shot dead in broad daylight. Lamonte McIntyre, an innocent seventeen-year-old, was falsely accused of the crime. Due to multiple, hideous perversions of justice, he would spend the next twenty-three years in prison. Today, he is a successful businessman and co-founder of Miracle of Innocence, a non-profit designed to get other wrongfully convicted people out of prison and provide them the resources necessary to thrive. But no amount of financial prosperity or philanthropy can make up for lost time. In this episode of Open Mike, Lamonte takes us through the events of that fateful day, breaks down the corruption that defined his trial, and explains how, after everything, he remains unbitter about his misfortune.