Rogue Learner

Dr. Peter Gray

Peter Gray is a research professor of psychology at Boston College who has conducted and published research in neuroendocrinology, developmental psychology, anthropology, and education. He is author of an internationally acclaimed introductory psychology textbook (Psychology, Worth Publishers, now in its 8th edition), which views all of psychology from an evolutionary perspective. His recent research focuses on the role of play in human evolution and how children educate themselves, through play and exploration, when they are free to do so. He has expanded on these ideas in his book, Free to Learn: Why Unleashing the Instinct to Play Will Make Our Children Happier, More Self-Reliant, and Better Students for Life (Basic Books). He also authors a regular blog called Freedom to Learn, for Psychology Today magazine. He is a founding member and former president of the nonprofit Alliance for Self-Directed Education (ASDE), which is aimed at creating a world in which children’s natural ways of learning are facilitated rather than suppressed. He is also a founder of the nonprofit Let Grow, the mission of which is to renew children’s freedom to play and explore outdoors, independently of adults. He earned his undergraduate degree at Columbia College and Ph.D. in biological sciences at the Rockefeller University many years ago. His own current play includes kayaking, bicycling, cross-country skiing, vegetable gardening, chopping wood for his home’s wood-burning stove, and writing occasional sonnets.

Facebook

Show Notes

• Dr. Peter Gray has spent years researching how children naturally learn. He focused on play and what children are doing when they play and the function of play. He’s interested in play from an evolutionary perspective, children’s nature that comes about by natural selection to serve the function of education. 
• As Jenna was researching self directed learning, she came upon the six optimizing conditions for self directed education and found it extremely helpful in guiding her toward an environment at home that was ideal for learning. 
• Dr. Gray developed the six optimizing conditions for self directed learning based on what he studied at The Sudbury Valley School and through surveying ten anthropologists who had studied and lived among 7 different hunter-gatherer communities. He found many similarities between the hunter-gatherer communities and the students at Sudbury Valley School. 
• The first condition is the social expectation and reality that education is children’s responsibility. Dr. Gray observed that children come into the world biologically designed to educate themselves. Right from the beginning, children are curious and figuring things out on their own initiative. If adults believe that children need to be forced to learn, we can talk them out of the idea that they’re responsibility. We essentially send them the message that their curiosity doesn’t count. The adults in the child’s environment are not conveying the view that the adult is responsible for their education. 
• Jenna asks where does that that idea come from that adults have to educate children?
• Dr. Gray explains that the original purpose for education was to teach obedience. Autonomy was valued in hunter-gatherer bands, but agriculture changed all of this. An hierarchy arose by way of land ownership. This led to feudalism, whereby everyone was dependent on the land owners. It became imperative that Serf parents teach their children to obey for their own survival in this hierarchical world. The original schools were developed by Protestants in Prussia. There were three purposes for schools at that time; reading (as it was very common at that time for average day families to be literate), indoctrination (save children’s souls), teach obedience. Willfulness was sinfulness. Children were meant to memorize content, otherwise they’d be punished. Nobody questioned it. Most teachers don’t have this goal in today’s modern world, however they are entering into a school system which was never designed for that and is incapable of promoting creativity, critical thinking and a love for learning. The only way you can pass in school  is to do what you’re told to do and the only way to fail is to not do what you’re told to do. So even today, the goal is still obedience.
• The second optimized condition for SDE is unlimited freedom to play, explore, and pursue their own interests. Kids need lots of time to do this, essentially all day. Kids from the age of about four on through late teenage years in hunter-gatherer communities had all day to play and explore. This is the same way Sudbury Valley School models their school. It allows children to exercise their nature-given gifts that are for the purpose of education. Dr. Gray recalls in his own education back in the 50’s, there were far fewer hours spent in school and on homework and therefore he had time to spend playing and exploring outside the confines of a school setting, unlike how it is today. School was never a great place for learning, but it didn’t occupy so much of a child’s day. 
• Adult-directed sports, clubs, and extracurriculars are no replacement for play. It’s yet another place where obedience is the primary issue. If it’s self selected it’s fine, but when that type of activity is occupying so much of a child’s time, they are deprived of the opportunity to figure things out on their own. 
• In highschool, Jenna’s day started at 6am, she went to school, came home in time for dinner, did homework and then went to bed. There was no time for play or creative pursuits. 
• Dr. Gray says we are raising a generation of sleep-deprived kids, and studies conducted during the pandemic have revealed that due to school closures, children are getting more sleep and parents and children are reporting improved moods because of it. 
• Jenna shares how her son is now getting 3 hours of extra sleep because he’s at home learning. 
• The third optimizing condition for SDE is opportunity to play with tools of the culture. By play, it’s meant that children get to use the tool in whichever way they choose. Children want to use tools in meaningful ways, build something, cook something, etc. In any culture, children are naturally drawn to the most important tools of their culture. Playing with those tools is how you develop mastery of the tools. In hunter-gatherer bands, parents and older kids might help facilitate this learning by making small versions of these tools. Computers are the most important tools of our culture, which is why children are drawn to them. Other tools that are important in our culture are kitchen appliances, wood tools, sports equipment, books, etc. One advantage to a self-directed learning center or school is that they might have a more diverse collection of tools in which the children can discover and use. 
• Jenna shares her experience as a teacher, in which she handed out scientific equipment to students and they were compelled to play with it before the actual lesson began. It was evident to her that her students weren’t interested in being directed through the activity using the tools, instead they would have rather discovered its uses on their own.  
• Dr. Peter Gray points out that kids want to figure out how to use a tool, rather than being shown how to use it. Of course, safety and proper use of tools is important before use of dangerous or delicate tools.
• Jenna remembers reading in Peter Gray’s book, Free To Learn about a study done on babies where researchers observed how two independent groups of babies responded to toys given to them without being shown all the ways in which you can play with it, and toys given to them where the researcher spent a great deal of time showing the baby what you can do with the toy. The babies who weren’t given instruction about how the toy worked learned more about the toy and found more ways of playing with the toy. The most interesting toys are ones that have infinite ways of playing with it. Dr. Gray points out how this is akin to math instruction in school because kids are being given the way to do the math problem, which takes away the discovery and curiosity in math problems. 
• The fourth optimizing condition for SDE is access to a variety of caring adults who are helpers, not judges. Caring adults could be family members, friends, or mentors to the child. They are glad to help but are not evaluating or judging the child in any way. It’s important because we can’t be fully honest when we are being judged by others. You’re not likely to present your problems to someone who is judging you. You’re going to be orientated toward, what does this person want me to say and what does this person want me to do? There’s an artificiality in your interaction with someone who is judging you. Adults are there to help when children ask for it. It’s tough in our society since everything is measured and competitive. In a school setting, it's impossible not to evaluate or judge. Being judged is stressful, which inhibits your performance on anything you’re not good at and your creativity. The ideal situation would be where the individual is the only judge of their work or performance. Children need a variety of adults to observe, so they can get a sense of what it’s like to be an adult and get a broader sense of what adults are like. Children can also learn from adults with various skills and professions. 
• Jenna is reminded of the saying, “it takes a village to raise a child.” She jokingly tells her husband they should go live on a commune because the way our culture lives, in our individual houses sometimes isolated from family, is not conducive to how children learn.

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Alliance for Self Directed Education

Free To Learn  by Peter Gray

Psychology Today

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

Show Notes

• Jenna starts the show by describing her family's learning philosophy and home education style. My family has been home educating now for approximately 9 months and we’ve chosen self directed education as our approach to learning. What does that mean exactly? Well, it basically means that our children control what, when and how they learn. We actually refrain from labeling “learning” as we believe as humans we are always learning and there aren’t particular subjects or skills that trump others. Our two children are unique and require very different learning environments, resources, and lengths of time to learn new skills. We respect that and do our best to provide a conducive environment where their educational pursuits can be achieved. We do our best, as their facilitators, to enhance their environment and open the world to them, in the hopes that they can explore and learn without limitations.
• This week’s episode is a continuation of a conversation with Naomi Fisher, a clinical psychologist and author of ‘Changing Our Minds’. 
• Two quick announcements Jenna wanted to share are:
• • The Rogue Learner App will be open for the public to test. It’s an app designed for home educating families to record their learning and daily activities, books they’ve read, and any other pertinent information related to their learning journey. The app is developed to be a quick and fun way of documenting your life. It’s formatted as a photo/diary entry design. You can become a tester for the app and secure a lifetime discount by downloading the app here! 
  • Jenna will be taking a four week break and ending season I of the podcast with this episode. Season II will drop in a few weeks and features interviews with Peter Gray, Sophie Christophy and Summer Jean. Jenna will be working on other projects related to the website, blog and podcast. You can connect with her in the FB group on my Facebook page or Instagram. 
  • Families who’d like to featured on the podcast should reach out to Jenna at contact.roguelearner@gmail.com. She will be working on a series for the podcast where she interviews a few families on a semi-regular basis to find out how they are implementing self-directed learning and what benefits or challenges they’ve faced along their journey. 
• Jenna asks Naomi about neurodiverse children and autonomy, particularly focusing on children who may not have the ability to self-regulate yet. Naomi says that every child is unique and you can not make assumptions about anyone else's experience based on your own. She goes on to explain how sometimes having a hard rule may benefit children or families because it can actually enhance learning opportunities. In some cases, the ambivalence of having too many choices or a particular choice that they can’t say no to, makes it difficult for them to focus on anything else. (just as we are these days with our phones) She uses the example of eliminating a in-app purchasing mobile game that her son played years ago, as it created a deficit in learning due to his fixation on buying gems for the game. 
• It’s important to always have the opportunity for change however, because eventually our children will need to make these determinations on their own (in this example, how to self-regulate with video gaming) once they are living on their own. Gradually moving toward self-regulation is helpful in this situation. 
• One fixed ideology won’t create a world in which we don’t have to be flexible and make changes to our lives. We can’t put our parenting or learning on auto-pilot because family needs are evolving and changing every day. Staying flexible and not prescribing a blanket ideology to your life is important. 
• Naomi gives two wonderful guiding principles to consider: “ Is what I’m doing helping my child to learn?” and “Is it opening up the world for them?” 
• Autonomy within what the child can manage at the time is the key, but simultaneously parents must always be willing to challenge their assumptions. Is this really true? For example: “Kids should know how to read by the age of 5.” Is this a schooled assumption? Have you challenged this idea? Have a look at the research. 
• When we’re talking about neurodiversity, we’re talking about how people relate to the world and how their brains interpret the environment. It generally includes people who have diagnoses of; ADHD, Autism, Dyslexia, Dyspraxia, Dyscalculia.
• Neurodiversity is more than just the characteristics of the person, it’s also about how the world around them responds to them. In this way, the severity of their disability is in relation to how negatively they are impacted by their environment. 
• School can make the environment more disabling for these neurodiverse children. 
• With self-directed education, we can look at how a child interacts with the world and create an environment which suits their learning needs. 
• Special schools for neurodiverse children oftentimes still run on the same principles as mainstream schools; requiring testing, uniforms, keeping a particular schedule, and assemblies to name a few. 
• So many parts of school aren’t actually about learning - uniforms, dining halls, lining up, school assemblies, sitting in desks, etc. are not about learning, they are about managing a large number of children.
• Naomi says diagnosing a child for life makes her uncomfortable because we don’t know how they will grow and develop. 
• Jenna shares a story of a student she had who became ostracized and bullied due to the fact that the teachers openly exhibited their frustration and irritation with his behavior. He was learning inadvertently that he didn’t fit in, that he isn’t normal, that nobody likes him. This is what school life was teaching him about himself.
• Naomi shares a story of how she was bullied and ostracized after returning to England from DR of Congo. 
• Jenna shares a story of how she was also bullied when she moved from a large city to a rural town. 
• Jenna points out that we all have a set of norms for where we live, which can positively and negatively impact our experience living in that environment. 
• Naomi adds that having those experiences may be the catalyst for looking for different ways to educate our kids. She reflected on how each school she attended did things differently, yet each of them thought they were doing it the ‘best’ way, which is then imposed on the students.

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher

Rogue Learner Facebook Group

Procreate

Filmora Editing Software

Unfinished: Short Creek

Private Facebook Group

The Rogue Learner App (limit: 25 testers)

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

Show Notes | Part I

• Jenna first discovered Naomi Fisher’s work through the Offtrail Learning Podcast hosted by Blake Boles. She then discovered the comprehensive YouTube video produced by The Phoenix Education Trust called The Psychology of Self Directed Learning by Naomi Fisher. Her most recent work, a book she wrote called  ‘Changing Our Minds’  was published in February 2021 and is highly recommended by Jenna as a comprehensive guide to self-directed learning. 
• Naomi and Jenna had an interview previously that didn’t get recorded due to technical difficulties, but there were a few takeaways from having had that experience which relate to education. One of them was that as it is in schools sometimes, having a time constraint created pressure and stress on my brain and made it more likely for me to be careless and inattentive. Jenna compares this to timed tests in school. 
• We are all fallible and it’s important for our kids to see us struggling and then our resiliency through times of stress and discomfort. 
• Being vulnerable and experiencing failure are something we traditionally try and avoid, but embracing it as part of the experience and congratulating yourself on overcoming those moments of rejection are really critical to demonstrating mastery in something. 
• Naomi started writing her book without thinking about it ever being published. It was such a niche topic that she wondered if it’d even be read. She decided to write it anyway because she knew the process of writing it would be useful to her anyway - she would learn how to write a book through writing a book.
• Naomi describes her experience writing the book. She wondered if she needed some sort of course or credentials. Sometimes we think we need specific credentials or permission to start projects, but we really just need to get started. Courses are valuable, yet not essential to getting started. 
• As her son approached school age, she felt strange about sending her son into the school environment and giving up complete control over how he was talked to, what he did, who he spent his time with, after having been so intentional about that during his first years. Knowing her son’s personality and needs, she was worried he wouldn’t comply with the group norms, which would have made school quite difficult for her son. 
• They chose to unschool because their son was opposed to any structured learning. 
• As her kids got older (ages 7 and 10), she noticed how increasingly difficult it was to meet both of their needs simultaneously since they had completely different interests.
• Jenna’s kids are much the same and they’ve been using Galileo’s online school as a resource to help offer diverse clubs and activities that each of her kids can participate in at their discretion. 
• Our environment greatly impacts what is essential to learn and priority to learn specific skills. For example, if you move to France, French is most important to learn. 
• Two ways of self directed learning: interest-led (watercolour painting)  and things you need to learn in your environment (like language).
• As unschooling parents, it’s important to ask ourselves: How can we expand the environment for your child? 
• Making sure we are giving our children the opportunity to interact in the world and speak with people of varying perspectives, backgrounds and cultures is how unschooling can elevate the educational experience for your family. 
• Some schools, like Montessori and Waldorf, can actually impose more restrictions than we’re aware of and are based on our perceived beliefs about freedom. When you choose a school for its pedagogical beliefs, you’re often choosing a lifestyle for the whole family. 
• When you choose a specific school based on your child’s natural interests, learning style and preferred environment, then it can be a great solution.
• When control becomes visible, then we need to evaluate how we are impeding on our children’s freedom and autonomy. How can we move forward in a way that the parents and children are both getting their needs met?
• School provides us with certain rules and parameters, so for unschooling families,they must determine on their own, which boundaries and rules are going to work best for their lives. It takes time and flexibility. 
• Autonomy can actually be encouraged by teaching children necessary skills for living in their culture. Cooking is an example Jenna used with her son. He gained autonomy by learning how to cook a variety of foods for himself when he isn’t happy with selection at dinner. 

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Phoenix Education Trust

Offtrail Learning Podcast

Changing Our Minds by Naomi Fisher

The Psychology of Self Directed Learning by Naomi Fisher

Leave a Voicemail

Rogue Learner Facebook Group

Galileo Online School (use code Rogue Learner for $100 off tuition)

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

Show Notes

Chris and Jenna share their takeaways from episode 009. 

Selling your house and beginning a co-housing project of this scale is commendable and courageous. It takes a lot of effort to take the alternative path and create a life more aligned with your values. If we stick with the school system, we by default assume the values of that system.

Every step toward living a life that’s in line with your values is a step in the right direction. It will eventually lead you to the lifestyle you want. 

Getting familiar with your values first helps you to recognize the most impactful changes you can make to get you closer to leading a life of choice. 

Deschooling helps you to stay alert and aware and helps inform your decisions going forward. Drift is a common result of not questioning or reflecting. 

Jenna would like to find ways to include more diversity in their kids lives through travel and interacting with the community. Obviously, Covid has impacted their ability to do this thus far. 

Chris is interested in driving more intention toward authenticity and kindness. 

Jenna shares her hope for building up her kids’ emotional intelligence, which will give them the foundation they need to build the skills needed to be successful in their area of expertise, passions, or interests.

When we reach the end of traditional school systems, many of us feel skilled and unhappy.

Working 40 - 50 hour work weeks and getting used to consuming material items to FEEL successful is not the future we envision for ourselves or our kids, but it’s the life we are promised (or sentenced to, whichever way you see it) when we follow the traditional path. 

Living intentionally, in Jenna’s opinion, is where you’ll gain meaning in your life. 

With home education, you gain back some control over how your values play out in your day to day life.

As humans, we enjoy being creative but it’s difficult for children who are passionate about artistic pursuits to devote their time and energy to it because of school hours. What if they had the time to dedicate their entire day to these endeavors? How would that affect the way they contribute to that field?

Trying to fit in creative “hobbies” alongside school hours means you’re giving partial attention to both school and the “hobby”. What if they were able to devote all their time to the thing they’re most skilled at and interested in?

Our own son felt the pressure and anxiety from secondary school, but he couldn’t articulate it, nor was he consciously aware that school was the source of his stress. 

Mentioned in Today's Show

Teen Ballerina’s Daily Routine

Episode 009

Sir Ken Robinson TedEx Talk

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

Show Notes

• Nickee’s boys are 61/2 and 4 and have always unschooled. Her husband brought the idea of homeschooling into their family. 
• Nickee had a gut feeling her son would not fit into the school system model. 
• It wasn’t too difficult for her to question the dominant system, as she had been doing that in other areas of her life outside of unschooling, particularly with her work in psychology. 
• She says she fell naturally into attachment parenting and gentle parenting because it made sense to the theory she had been practicing with adult clients.
• Nickee explains how her son was able to find his authentic self through attending a self-directed, consent-based learning center. 
• She feels like deschooling is something she’ll always be working on, although her mother’s open-minded nature was helpful in her ability to embrace alternative mindsets. 
• Deschooling is probably the most important piece of unschooling. She didn’t want her children to have to unravel years of dominant thinking from various systems they’ve been exposed to. 
• Sophie Christophy does a course on deschooling yourself, in which Nickee was able to find ways to better listen to her body’s response to things - she uses the example of trying to control and plan the day, and then noticing her physical reaction to her boys wanting to do something different.
• Deschooling, in Nickee’s words, is taking yourself out of the schooling system and the dominant system in order to successfully unschool and parent your children. It’s bringing awareness to the constant influx of messaging from the media, advertising, consumerism etc. and instead listening to yourself and your intuition.
• Jenna shares how reflection, understanding her feelings, and reconnecting with her interests was part of her own deschooling process.
• Earthrise is a project Nickee is working on together with her husband. It’s a co-housing, sustainable intentional living community. Her vision is to create a small community of families living and unschooling together. 
• She was thinking about how to create more connection, collaboration, resilience and self-sufficiency for her and her family. 
• Jenna explains how exploring her values was also part of her experience in coming to unschooling, similar to Nickee wanting to live her core values through the Earthrise project.
• Nickee describes Earthrise as having 3 pillars: environment, connection, and unschooling. 
• Unschooling fits into this community because the ethos of the group are inherently self-directed and democratic.
• They want to grow food and give back to the community. They’d also like to offer something for homeschoolers, possibly workshops or experiences for families. Service to others is an important piece of the overarching vision of Earthrise. 
• The Cabin, set up by Sophie Christophy and Sarah Stollery, is a self-directed learning environment. The guiding principles are consensual learning and everyone’s voice matters.
• Nickee stresses how much it helps to have like-minded people to connect with when trying to live out your values.
• On a smaller scale, Jenna suggests finding ways to create safe and intentional living “bubbles” for your family as a way of creating community. 
• In the future, Earthrise will evolve and adapt to the needs of the community. 
• Nickee is currently exploring how fear plays into our lives. She mentioned Hakomi Therapy as a resource.
• She learns best when the learning applies to her lived experience.
• She has found Reading Eggs helpful in inspiring her son’s reading progression and The Cabin has been instrumental in their learning journey as well. 
• She also mentioned that enjoys listening to the podcast, A New and Ancient Story by Charles Eisenstein and has his book The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible in the queue. 

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Hakomi Therapy

Reading Eggs

The Cabin

A New and Ancient Story Podcast

The More Beautiful World Our Hearts Know is Possible by Charles Eisenstein

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

• Jenna shares a voicemail from the community. Sue calls in to share how her son “reverse engineered” his driving course to make it more efficient and relevant to him. 
• You can call in and leave your own message by going to www.roguelearner.com/podcast and click, “share message.” We’d love to add your stories to the show!
• Jenna’s husband will join the show today. If all goes well, it may become the new biweekly format.
• Jenna invited him on so she could:
• extract and discuss the key takeaways from each of the guest interviews on the show
• add a dad’s perspective to the conversation
• Demonstrate how parents can respectfully disagree yet still find a common ground

• Chris starts by sharing his first takeaway from episode 007, which is that in a school setting, we’re often limited to perspectives, ideas and views from people who live and think much the same as we do. With Galileo and homeschooling, you’re able to engage with learners from diverse backgrounds.
• Jenna talks about how the curriculum is set by the government and every government decides for their country/culture how and what should be taught. 
• Chris shares that unlike at schools, facilitators at Galileo don’t always need to be experts in their field, rather they need to have a passion for the topic and that is sufficient for teaching and learning from one another. 
• Curiosity is squelched by the curriculum because it’s set and inflexible. Students who want to learn more about a given topic aren’t able. And the reverse is true, students who perceive the topic as unimportant and irrelevant to their lives are still forced to sit through those classes. 
• In Kristen’s interview last week, she shared how her intense schedule at her IBE school was too stressful. Chris found it troubling that overscheduling and burnout are now affecting students as early as middle school. He wonders about the harm it is causing mentally and asks how early do we want kids to feel stressed? 
• Jenna and Chris talk about how asking kids what they want to be when they grow up is so common, but it’s a daunting question to answer for a child. Children have trouble answering this because they aren’t ready to make adult plans - their adult lives are so far removed from their current world. They are still in the process of developing skills and finding out about themselves. 
• Schools are slow to evolve. It costs money and takes time for them to acquire modern tools for students to use. 
• Cheating culture in schools is prolific and it comes from competition and a culture of comparison in schools, particularly in high school and middle school.
• Competition favors the winner and the losers can become demotivated. How does that affect how we treat others when we’re competing for the top?
• Because the subject and topics learned in school are so contextually removed from the real world, we miss the point of learning something other than to achieve a grade, status, or certification. 
• Jenna feels jaded that she never was exposed to alternative education and wishes she had learned about all the models of education in her elementary education studies. It’s no surprise though, because it would actually question the education system. 
• School teaches that rules are more important than independent thought. 
• Having other mentors/facilitators from Galileo has been really important during our transition to self directed learning because our kids are still learning to trust that we are not pushing them in any specific direction. It will likely take time for our kids to understand that our new lifestyle actually means that we are not directing them or their learning. 
• Mindshift change is important to unschooling. When we change our mindset from “My day is planned and it will go according to plan.” to, “Although I have a plan for the day, unpredictability will occur and I’m willing to adapt to it.” 
• Anxiety can creep in when we’re trying to control everything. 
• Jenna and Chris are working on this every single day. It’s a slow progression and they are not by any means perfect at this.

• Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

  Galileo Want to try Galileo? Use code, "Rogue Learner" to get $100 off one student's tuition.

  Episode 007

  Leave a voicemail

  Ways to Connect

  Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

  Facebook  Instagram

  Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

  Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

  Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

  YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

  Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

• Kristen grew up in Tampa, Fl and attended public schools her whole education. For elementary school she attended an IB school. As a gifted student, she was given many fun opportunities such as: Battle of the Books and Mathletes. 
• In Middle, she felt a huge shift in pressure. She had 4 hours of homework, so she switched to a local public school. It was not very challenging though, and felt really uninspired to attend. 
• In high school, she moved to Texas. She attended the 5th largest high school in the nation. It wasn’t a positive experience. She noticed a huge cheating culture, especially in the AP classes. Her opinion of education changed and led her to an interest in self-directed learning.
• In her experience, elementary school was more project-based, which left a lot of autonomy for the students. Middle School focuses more on punishment and the relationships with your teachers are shallow due to the constraints of scheduling and organizational needs with so many students. 
• She wasn’t quite sure what she wanted to major in at the college level. She came upon self-directed learning on her own online and became really interested in it. She found a democratic school near her and asked to observe. Shortly after, she began interning at the school while attending college. She earned her degree in Child Learning and Development. 
• Alternative education was not even mentioned in her program, except Waldorf and Montessori. As part of a presentation in school, Kristen showed the TED ED talk by Logan LePlante and it sparked a lot of discussions. 
• In democratic schools, students meet regularly to vote on rules, how to allocate funds, etc. Mentors at the school support the students by reminding them of the time, to eat, help organize events and field trips, and be available to support them however they need. Some of these schools offer classes or clubs which students can opt into. 
• At the democratic school where Kristen interned, she offered a maker’s space and some classes in psychology and tech. 
• The school eventually developed into an Agile Learning Center and moved to a new location, so Kristen collaborated with others to develop a Liberated Learner’s Center for ages 4-18. At the center, there were classes, games, and workshops offered to students - all opt in. 
• During Covid, Kristen transitioned to Galileo. 
• Democratic schools are schools where students vote on how to run the school. They vary in style - Sudbury and Summerhill are two examples of this model. 
• Agile Learning Centers are schools where the goal is more about intention. It’s run sociocratically. Students use tools to visually keep track of their goals. Students are offered pop-up classes and workshops based on their interests.
• Liberated Learning Centers are based on the North Star approach where each student is offered a mentor and classes are offered to students based on their interests. They are given a lot of guidance and support during the student/career/continuing education  transition. 
• According to Kristen, mentoring (as opposed to teaching) is great for three reasons; the learners want to be there and are excited to attend your class and you have the opportunity to build a deeper relationship since you share a passion with the learner, and lastly you get to teach something you love. You aren’t seen as an authority figure, so communication is open and trusting. The learners get to decide what they learn related to the topic. 
• Galileo is a global online school for self directed learners. They offer clubs where students get to decide when and if they participate. Students have the freedom to try the clubs, but aren't obligated to attend. The clubs provide challenges and skill-building based on what the students want to know. The clubs meet weekly. If they need help between club sessions, students can contact the facilitators per message. 
• In self-directed learning, learners get to choose who they learn from and when it’s the right time to learn that specific topic. In self-directed learning, there’s complete flexibility in how you learn and what you learn, which gives students the option to go as far as they want in any given topic. 
• Kristen has fun plans for her clubs at Galileo this year. She will be offering game development boot camps and Game Jams, where students work in teams to complete a game around a theme. Through these clubs, learners are exposed to software and experiences that adults and professionals use as well. 

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

IB school

Battle of the Books 

Mathletes

Logan LePlante

Ducky 3D YouTube Channel

Polygon Runway YouTube Channel

Brackeys YouTube Channel

Audible

Udemy

Galileo Use code “Rogue Learner” and save $100 off your child’s tuition.

Switched on Pop Podcast

Limetown

Up and Vanished

LeVar Burton Reads

Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari

Why are You Still Sending Your Kids to School by Blake Boles

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

• Doubt and fear come up a lot within homeschooling forums and groups.

• It’s natural to feel doubt and fear when you’re choosing something unconventional for your family. Media and social norms make it difficult for us to stay confident in our choice to homeschool. 

• Jenna shares a list of ways to realign with your values and boost your confidence.

• 1. Remember your “why”- On days when you’re feeling a bit low, you can try to remind yourself of the reasons you decided to homeschool in the first place. 

• 2. Observe + reflect - sit with your child and make mental notes about what they are doing. Consider asking them; What do you like about this game? What else do you want to know about it? What’s the best part of it? What are your favorite things about it? How did you get into this? Where did you learn about it? Who else do you know that likes this? After gathering the information for a week, you will get a better understanding of what your child is learning from the activities they are choosing and learn about ways you can better support them if needed. Reflection is important in unschooling. We need to always be asking ourselves questions and considering how we can adapt and change to accommodate our learners. 

• 3. Focus on the positives - Construct a list of ways your child is learning and thriving. Ask yourself; what opportunities have you been able to offer your child that wouldn’t have been possible in a traditional school setting?

• 4. Reconnect with your Child - join your children in activities they enjoy. Take the time to see the world through their eyes. Make getting to know them one of your high priority projects. Show him that you understand *him*. To build a relationship with your child is to connect with him as he truly is, not with an idealized version of a child you have in your mind.

• 5. Build your confidence by increasing your knowledge base - Has it been a while since you read a book about self- directed learning or had a conversation about it with someone? Perhaps it’s time to rebuild your knowledge base. Fear of the unknown is crippling sometimes, but informing yourself is liberating. When asked about your homeschooling approach, do you freeze up? Are you capable of explaining self directed learning to people confidently? If not, it’s a good idea to hit the books. One easy way to avoid developing fear is by collecting information about a topic. Keep learning more about self directed learning, check out my resource page where you can find podcasts, blogs, books, and YouTube videos about self directed learning. Join a webinar or take a workshop every now and then, just to stay up-to-date and gain insight. There are tons of resources out there! Start getting curious. But remember, this requires constant revisiting. You’ll forget things and need reminders. Listening to this podcast is a great place to start!

• 6. Get support - Open the world to your child. You are not meant to be everything to your kids. Lean on others to fulfill areas you don’t feel as strong in. In fact, for self-directed learning to be optimal, you need to invite other humans into your world and create a web of caring individuals that your children can tap into for various things. Make sure you’re taking care of yourself too. Find ways which will help your whole family get their needs met. 

• 7. Concentrate on your strengths - Don’t forget you have strengths too! Sit down and make a list, or better yet, get input from your family and friends if you can’t see them for yourself. You have so much to offer your kiddo, perhaps you just aren’t seeing it. Use your strengths on a daily basis, so you feel like you’re providing something meaningful to your family. If your strength is writing, consider writing notes to your kids. If you are great at math, could you invite your kids to play a game with you or use math in everyday tasks together or by creating a project together? 

• 8. Hang up quotes and/or mantras where you can see them - This is a fun way to remind yourself each and every day of what you find important. You can hang these on the fridge,

 frame them and put them on the wall, or simply write it on a sticky note next to your laptop. 

One of my favorite John Holt quotes is; 

“It is as true now as it was then that no matter what tests show, very little of what is taught in school is learned, very little of what is learned is remembered, and very little of what is remembered is used. The things we learn, remember, and use are the things we seek out or meet in the daily, serious, nonschool part of our lives.”

– John Holt

• 9. Continue to deschool - Asking ourselves questions like; “is this true” and “why do I think this?” can help us to reveal our true thoughts and feelings and reassess whether those beliefs are still serving us. It’s important for us to continue the process of deschooling, as there will always be pressures from conventional schools of thought inundating us on a regular basis, whether that be through the media or through conversations with others, it’s important for us to know schooling has affected our perception of learning.

• 10. Create a rich learning environment - Sometimes doubt creeps in when we’re feeling uninspired or our kids are feeling that way. Do you have exciting things to do and explore in your home? Perhaps you can arrange a toy or game swap in your community or bring in nature from the yard. If you’re craving creativity, can you splurge on an easel and some quality brushes and paint or go thrifting for low-cost treasures? Creating cozy work spaces and making tools inviting and accessible can be a quick and easy way to get inspired. 

• 11. Make some goals together - We create a very loose schedule and make goals at the beginning of each month, just to realign ourselves with our current passions and ensure we each get the time we need to work on things we deem important. We like to sync our calendars so that we make sure we are available to one another as needed. Perhaps a schedule will help everyone in your family feel more focused too. 

• 12. Let go of controls of outcomes - Some of us may have started with the idea that if we carefully construct a life for our kids with specific opportunities, environments, and scheduled activities, we will single-handedly craft and mold our child into the highly successful and well-adjusted adult we’d hoped for. The reality is, we aren’t raising robots, we are raising humans - humans with individual thoughts, feelings, needs, and wants. We can’t possibly know what’s best for someone else. If we can let go of the need to craft specific outcomes from our children, we can begin focusing on getting to know our wonderful and always-worthy-of-your love children. We can begin to help them become who they are, not who you expect them to be. Resist the urge to mold your child into a specific vision of the child you want. Rather spend each day getting to know them better.  If you’re holding on to an expectation, question it. Why do you have this expectation? How do you feel about letting go of it? It’s a difficult talk, I know but it’s an important part of the deschooling process. The sooner you let go of this need for control, the sooner you’ll find your footing on your self directed learning journey. For more about this topic, refer to episode 004 where I talk about my experience with this topic.

• 13. Find Your People - Everyone needs to feel like they belong. It’s a human need and we all feel more encouraged when we have a group of like-minded people we can talk with about our challenges and gleem insight from. There are so many groups out there, so don’t settle for the one nearest you or the first one you find if it isn’t making you feel better. Ditch groups that aren’t enhancing your experience. You’re always welcome to try out the Rogue Learner group. It’s a small community and everyone is really nice and supportive. Try to avoid groups that make you feel inadequate or make you question your instincts. This is a red flag! You ought to feel supported, not demeaned or shamed. Those are not your people!

• CAUTION: refrain from taking stranger’s advice about your child. You are the best judge of your child’s needs. Follow your instincts. Don’t let ideology restrict you from listening to your intuition.

• That’s it for my list. It’s something I hope you can refer to as well when you’re feeling that doubt creep in. If this list doesn’t help you feel aligned with your values, you may want to reflect on it. Could you consider a different educational approach? There is no shame in looking for alternatives if this path is not feeling right for you or your family. There are so many options for you to consider; alternative schools, democratic schools, free schools, and online self-directed schools might be something to look into. I talked with Kelly Davis in episode 003 about Galileo, an online school for self-directed learners. If you want to try it out, you can use code “Rogue Learner” to get $100 off your student’s tuition. 

• If you found this episode helpful, please consider sharing it with someone who may also find value in it. In next week’s episode, you’ll get to hear my interview with Kristen Montesano. She is an educator who’s worked in various self-directed learning schools. I think you’re going to love hearing her perspective! We often hear from parents, learners, and researchers, but I was curious to know what she observed from her students in self directed learning environments. 

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Self Directed Learning Resources Page

Rogue Learner Facebook Group

Episode 003 - Kelly Davis, Galileo

Episode 004 - Letting go of Control

John Holt

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

On today's show, I'm talking with Heidi Steel. She lives in the UK and has unschooled her children from the very beginning. She's a former teacher, and now spends her time advocating for unschooling and sharing her experiences with other families. She also coaches families as they transition to unschooling and as they need support on her website Live.Play.Learn. She shares why she decided to unschool her kids, her thoughts on uninterrupted play and how we can identify the learning taking place. She also talks about our role in facilitating our children as they grow. She has 10 years of experience, so I'm really eager for you to hear her story.

• Homeschooling can seem overwhelming when you consider the anxiety we experience based on societal pressures. How can we gain meaningful employment and get into college without attending school? However, we can alternatively ask the question; “does our school system do a good job of ensuring success for everyone?”
• Our faith in the school system is supported by a false assurance that if we control our children’s lives, they’ll be successful adults.
• Curriculums are limiting, learning isn’t linear, and skills can be learned at any time. 
• We are all individuals with unique interests and strengths. The school system we have today impairs an individual’s ability to explore their interests fully, and therefore is limited by its own organizational constraints. 
• Jenna shares that her husband studied French for five years, but  hasn’t used it or needed it in his life and has since forgotten most of what he’s learned. What could he have been learning during that time that would have served him better in his life?
• Rosa Bonheur was an artist who felt confined by the limitations of school, and upon being expelled, was finally free to pursue her passions. She ultimately led an enormously successful career as a painter. 
• Learners are the best judges of what they require to succeed. Their motivation leads them to learn new and exciting things and supporting their goals is the best thing we can do in truly educating our children. Self-directed learning provides students with the individualized resources, classes, and mentors they need. 
• We can not force anyone to learn. We can’t control our children and we should be focusing on our values and modeling them for our children. We can control our own behaviors. 
• Jenna shares an example of a time when her daughter wanted to order a math workbook, but she doubted she’d ever use it. She realized later that rather than controlling the situation, her daughter could learn a valuable lesson about how she best learns by ordering the workbook and testing it out.
• The beauty of homeschooling is its flexibility. Not having control over every aspect of the learning is difficult to adapt to, particularly when we have a schooled mindset, but providing this flexibility and openness improves the trust in your overall relationship with your child. 
• Jenna shares a tip that helps her family feel more organized and on the same page at the beginning of each month. Together with her kids, they create a template of “an ideal week,” which they then use to help fill in each week’s plan during the month. 
• They cross-check one another’s schedules to make sure they’re all available for each other as needed. The kids participate in clubs through their online school, and these are also added to the template.
• Jenna encourages families to embrace and find joy in the unexpected nature of the homeschooling life.
• She leaves listeners with these two quotes:
• “True love is built on free will and free choice, not control and manipulation.” Ken Poirot
• “To be trusted is a greater compliment than being loved.” George MacDonald

• Kelly describes her educational upbringing as traditional and not too exciting. She was focused on sports and socializing. She remembers playing “school” as a kid and growing up around educators. She remembers the adults in her life being respectful and talking to her “like a person.”
• Kelly was undecided about a major as she approached college, but eventually studied communications. She had an opportunity to teach in Fiji with a group of teachers and tagged along on that trip. It ultimately lead her to take on more teaching opportunities in Asia, one in Vietnam and another in South Korea.
• Her experience teaching in South Korea made her realize that she wanted to work in an environment which provided learning opportunities for teachers and a personalized teacher/student relationship, much like she had when she was tutoring. She also liked that mentoring students gave both student and teacher the ability to share skills with one another.
• She left South Korea for Taiwan in search of hot weather and started a language center. She worked in an international school and became a certified teacher while there. Her teaching experience gave her a clear vision of what she didn’t want for her future in teaching. She began exploring online education and came upon self-directed learning.
• She met her co-founder Vlad Stan, and together they interviewed over 100 experts and homeschooling parents. After the summit, they learned that many homeschooling families were looking for connections and community, so they initiated an online book club. Her inspiration comes from a question she frequently asks herself, “What did I need when I was 12 years old?” 
• Kelly describes learning as something that never ends, and all knowledge is created equal. The goal is to instill lifelong learning, by allowing students to follow their interests. Self directed learning is a partnership. Age mixing is encouraged. 
• Kelly mentions how Galileo, the online school she co-founded, offers clubs where students are invited to participate in. The clubs are based on student interest, not age. 
• Galileo began as a book club based on a need from students and parents in the homeschooling community, and eventually grew to included daily check-in’s and more clubs. At the moment, Galileo offers clubs, nanodegrees, retreats, daily check-in’s with other students and a facilitator, monthly presentations, “meet your mentors”, and bootcamps. Self-directed learning was a natural fit to the school’s mission, “Nothing is mandatory, everything is inspirational.”
• Kelly advises parents to assist their children for the first few months during the transition from traditional schooling to self-directed learning. There are interviews from Galileo parents for anyone wondering how self-directed learning could work for their family. Deschooling is an important process, where students are given space and time to get bored. Parents partnering with their children for those first few months is very important. Deschooling generally takes as many months as the student was in school, so for example 7 years of school would mean the student needs 7 months of deschooling. You’ll know when your child is ready for structure once they are creating and playing. 
•  

• Join the Facebook Community if you want to get support, learn about great resources, and get inspiration for self-directed learning. 
• Record a voicemail! If you want to share any challenges you overcame this week or family wins. Jenna will play them on the show. www.roguelearner.com/voicemail
• Talia joins the show to record Jenna’s backstory and journey to homeschooling her kids.
• Jenna shares how she felt like a teacher’s pet growing up and never felt like a rogue learner herself.
• She attended elementary school in Las Vegas and enjoyed it because of a pull out GATE program. The teacher encouraged deep learning and Jenna looked forward to participating in the program each week. 
• When she started middle school in Las Vegas, she felt like a small fish in a big pond and doesn’t really remember much about what she learned. She cared about what her peers thought. She enjoyed sports and it became a passion for her throughout the rest of her school years. 
• Her highschool was small and didn’t offer the same opportunities that her friends were experiencing back in Vegas. She realized it was unfair, and decided to move back to Vegas for her last year of high school.
• Jenna became homesick after a few months and realized that keeping a job, participating in AP classes and playing sports was impossible to balance. Jenna decided to move back home.

Here's What We Talked About in This Episode

What is a rogue learner?  

A rogue learner in my definition is somebody who takes their learning by the horns. It's somebody who makes their own path, creates their own learning journey, and is not afraid to question the status quo. Somebody who is really, really motivated to learn on their own terms.

How and why did we choose self-directed learning?  

School was really dull for my kids and there were a lot of subjects that they were covering in school that just weren't applicable to what my kids were interested in and what they were good at. For us, self-directed education was a great fit. Self-directed learning for us has been really critical in developing relationships in our family that are really strong and respectful and trusting. That was really important to me. We really liked the idea that you don't have to learn at a school inside a classroom and at a desk, there are multiple ways for you to get information. We wanted our kids to know that learning is actually fun, joyful, and can create wonderful opportunities and can make your life more fulfilling. I don't want it to be a chore. I didn't want my kids to feel a sense of duty in having to go to school.

Who is this podcast for? 

This podcast is really geared toward people who already have an interest in self-directed learning or who want to begin learning about it.

What topics will this show cover? 

So in this show, I want to cover all different aspects of self-directed learning. I want to talk about how children can learn from the world around them. I want to talk about how we can provide space, community, the opportunity for children to travel, and gain global perspectives.

I want to explore how our kids can pursue goals set by themselves. I want to find out why children are motivated by having autonomy over their education. I want to discover ways in which we can facilitate and invite our children to explore their world.

What is the purpose of the show? 

This show is going to assist you with challenges, answer questions, and provide inspiration to you and your family. Even if we feel seasoned in self-directed learning, there will be doubts from time to time. It's so encouraging to hear stories from other people who are doing this and find out what their path looks like and how they're implementing this model on a day-to-day basis.

On this show, we'll keep you informed about upcoming summits and conferences. 

Where did the idea for the podcast come from?

Back in January, I started creating a directory for kids and families. I wanted it to benefit everyone, not just myself, but I really wanted it to be an organized system.

And I was really hoping that it would be something the community could add to on their own. After starting homeschooling with my kids, we settled into self-directed education quite nicely and I decided why not start a podcast about our self-directed learning journey and help point people to the resources that they're looking for at the same time.

Our Why 

We wanted better relationships with our kids, to lower anxiety levels in our kids, boost creativity, and offer unlimited time and resources to our kid's learning. 

Three things I immediately noticed after switching to homeschooling.

My kids accomplished goals beyond the limits of a graded rubrik. My son can focus his time and attention toward learning that is relevant to his interests and goals in life. Our relationships with each other have become more respectful and trusting.

Helpful Resources Mentioned in Today's Show

Rogue Learner Directory

Rogue Learner Facebook Group

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2017-12-20/canadian-classroom-program-aims-to-teach-children-compassion

Ways to Connect

Email me: contact.roguelearner@gmail.com

Facebook  Instagram

Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/rogue-learner/id1543224038

Google Play: https://podcasts.google.com/search/rogue%20learner

Spotify: https://roguelearner.libsyn.com/spotify

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdCocbWsxxAMSbUObiCQXPg

Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/show/rogue-learner

While you wait for our launch, check out the FREE online directory of learning resources I created for homeschooling families. 

http://www.roguelearner.com