Skip the Queue

Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.

Download the report now for invaluable insights and actionable recommendations!

Kelly Molson is the Founder of Rubber Cheese, a user focused web design and development agency for the attraction sector. Digital partners to Eureka! The National Children’s Museum, Pensthorpe, National Parks UK, Holkham, Visit Cambridge and The National Marine Aquarium.Kelly regularly delivers workshops and presentations on sector focused topics at national conferences and attraction sector organisations including ASVA, ALVA, The Ticketing Professionals Conference and the Museum + Heritage Show.

As host of the popular Skip the Queue Podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions, she speaks with inspiring industry experts who share their knowledge of what really makes an attraction successful.Recent trustee of The Museum of the Broads.

Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics. In this episode, we're answering your questions from the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report, asking what more you'd like to see in this year's survey and sharing more on how you can get involved next time. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Hello.

Paul Marden: Well, hello.

Kelly Molson: This is nice. So the two of us haven't been together for a podcast episode for a while.

Paul Marden: It does feel like, well, happy new year to start with.

Kelly Molson: Way too late for that malarkey. We've just been busy, haven't we've got lots of exciting projects that are coming to. Well, I don't like to say the end, but they're coming to point of launch.

Paul Marden: The launch, yeah. The exciting bit.

Kelly Molson: The very exciting bit. So we've all been pulled here, there and everywhere. So I've had lovely guests to speak to and you've had a little bit of a break from this. But we're back. We're back.

Paul Marden: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: And we're going to start like we always do with these ones. With what attraction have you visited most recently and what did you love about it?

Paul Marden: I have been to Mary Rose Museum and I went with a bunch of nine and ten year olds. We basically went down there for the Kids in Museums Takeover Day. It's one of the kind of showpiece Kids in Museums events that they run every year all around, putting the ownership of the museum into the hands of kids. I managed to wangle my way to Mary Rose, which is relatively close to me. And I took my daughter's class, who I run a coding club for. So interestingly, theme around our coding club this year is all around the arts and how you put art into StEm and make it steam just like an amazingly.

Kelly Molson: I can't believe how well that's worked out.

Paul Marden: It gets better. The very first session of our club was all about what is the job of a museum curator. And so we took that theme and went and took over the Mary Rose and became curators for a day. So the kids got to go around the museum and have fun and see all the cool stuff that's going on there. They did the 3D Dive, the Mary Rose experience, and it was amazing watching a bunch of nine and ten year olds reaching out and popping these bubbles that were on the 3D screen in front of them. And then they went off and they designed their own interactive display around whatever was the thing that excited them about the museum.

Paul Marden: So there was lots of dog themed ones because there's a dog that is the kind of subject of a lot of the kids stuff focused around Mary Rose. But there was all different sorts of interactive displays, augmented reality within the glass lift that looks onto the Mary Rose and how you could gamify it. The kids just had a whale of a time and I just strolled around the museum and watched them having fun and say, that wasn't a tough day at all.

Kelly Molson: I'm actually really jealous as well because were due to go and then you got the opportunity to go because of that thing happening and I still haven't been.

Paul Marden: I know. And it's an amazing place. We had so much fun. They welcomed us. We had all the education department looking after us and making us feel special. It was just such a brilliant day. Apart from trying to park a minibus with 15 kids somewhere near the Mary Rose, which scared me whitlets.

Kelly Molson: Oh, you actually drove a bus?

Paul Marden: I did not drive the bus, no, I was a navigator. I had to find the parking spot. It's a level of responsive.

Kelly Molson: You were bus driver dad as well that day.

Paul Marden: There's a character in Peppa Pig, isn't there? I can't remember who she is, but she works in the supermarket. She drives the minibus.

Kelly Molson: This rabbit is the hardest working rabbit you'll ever meet in your whole.

Paul Marden: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: No, I'm going to put her on par. Sorry, I'm actually going to put her on par with Mrs. Rabbit, who has got hundreds of kids who doesn't work, but she has to look after those. So she is probably the hardest working rabbit that you'll ever find. So there you go. Digress into Peppa Pig. You can see where my world is right now, can't you? That just gave you an insight into where I'm spending my time.

Paul Marden: So tell me about where have you been recently?

Kelly Molson: I have been recently to the Museum of the Broads. I don’t ever really spoken about this on the podcast that much. But I am a trustee of the Museum of the Broads and it is a lovely museum. It does not get as much love and attention as it should. So I felt that today was a good opportunity to highlight it. It's wonderful. It's on the broads, obviously, it's in Stallham. And it is such incredible value for money because you can buy a ticket to the museum and a boat trip. And the boat trips are phenomenal. Last year these were really popular, so they introduced some afternoon evening boat trips where you could go and spot kingfishers because that stretch of the broads is absolutely like prime Kingfisher viewing area.

Kelly Molson: I have only ever seen one Kingfisher out in real life, and they're so quick, like it was a flash of blue and I didn't have my glasses on it. She wasn't going to see anything in great detail. That is incredible. On one of the trips last year, on the boat trip, they saw ten kingfishers. It might have been the same kingfisher, just like, who knows? I'm going to say ten. I'm going to take the ten. But the museum itself is wonderful. Some of the artefacts they have there are just really fun and really engaging. And obviously they've got lots of information about the boats and the broads themselves and what the broads were traditionally used for and how they've developed over the years. It's a lovely little museum. It's volunteer led. They have, I think, two or three members of paid team there.

Kelly Molson: So much work goes into the management and the development of those museums when it's volunteer led as well. So it's lovely. It is really lovely.

Paul Marden: We both started doing trusteeship type stuff at the same time. So I started at Kids in Museums because I wanted to see a broad view of things. You started at Museum of the Broads because you wanted to see the inside running of the museum itself. What has the experience been like for you?

Kelly Molson: It’s so different. It's such a different environment to what I'm used to. So, I mean, it won't surprise you to know that museums are not quite as dynamic as an agency, or they're just not as fast paced as an agency. So I think the speed at which some things happen is I find it a bit of a challenge, if I'm honest, because we're used to kind of going, should we try this? Okay, let's talk it. Okay, great. Let's not someone run with it. And it's sort of just, I don't know, there's a speed at which stuff happens in an agency that it's incomparable to any other organisation. So it's nice in some ways that kind of take a bit of time to kind of think things through. I've really enjoyed understanding about all of the different facets that are required within an agency, within a museum. Sorry.

Kelly Molson: And the things that you have to understand about. Even when we had an office, there's a level of HR and a level of safety management that you have to do, but it's a whole other level when it's a museum and you've got members of the public coming along. So that's been really interesting to understand and learn about. I've really enjoyed kind of looking at how they're developing certain areas of the museum as well. So when there's a new exhibition that's on. So last year, the Pippa Miller exhibition launched. Pippa Miller was a really famous artist that was connected to the broads, and the museum was entrusted with some of her artwork when she passed, and it's the only place you can come and see it. It's a wonderful exhibition.

Kelly Molson: So understanding about how those exhibitions are developed and put on and watching those happen as well. And there's another one this year that will happen, which is an exhibition on peat, which I know that probably doesn't sound that interesting, but it really is my mate Pete. No, not your mate Pete. No, actual Peat. Peat soil Pete. So, yeah, that's been really nice to see and kind of understand how those things progress and are developed and the ideas that go into them. It's fascinating.

Paul Marden: Cannot imagine the effort that goes into curating a whole exhibition like that.

Kelly Molson: It's vast. And I will give a huge shout out to Nicola, the curator at the Museum of the Broads, because she works tirelessly there to just bring these stories to life. That's essentially what they do. They bring the stories of the broads to life. This is a little plea from me, actually. A little shout out to everyone that's listening. If everybody listening to this podcast, I mean, we get hundreds of people listen to these episodes. If everyone went and bought a ticket from the Museum of Broada that's listening to this episode today, it would make such a massive difference to that little museum. So if you are thinking about booking a little staycation this year, head to Norfolk, get a ticket to the Museum of the Broads, go and check out the broads themselves.

Kelly Molson: It is just a wonderful experience to go and see that museum and take a boat trip down the broads.

Paul Marden: There's a very nice place nearby to stay as well, isn't?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I mean, a certain podcast host does have a lovely little place in Norfolk that you could rent out, which is literally 25 minutes from this museum as well. Just heads up.

Paul Marden: Incidental.

Kelly Molson: If you want to give me a shout, I can put you in the direction of 28 Millgate. Or you could just search that on Google. No, honestly, genuinely, if you are thinking about having a staycation and you're heading that way, put it top of your list because it's a lovely afternoon out. Thank you. Thanks for listening to my podcast.

Paul Marden: So what are we actually talking about today then?

Kelly Molson: In this episode, we are going to be answering some of the questions that we've received from the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report. So, as you can imagine, we launch the report, we do the survey. All you lovely people fill in our survey for us and we launch the report, which gives you an analysis of what that survey data has meant. And it's a huge undertaking. It really is a huge undertaking. And I don't say that lightly. It's massive. It takes over our whole lives. And there is so much data in the report that we send out, but there's always questions, there's always more, and there's always more that we can do as well. And I think it just is an awful lot of work. Right.

Kelly Molson: So what happens is we launch it goes out, people digest it, and then they send us emails and they say, “This is really great. Thank you for this bit. Is there any insight into this thing?” And there's quite a lot of those emails that come in and most of them we probably can answer. It just, again, takes a bit of work to go back and look at the data and crunch the data and see if there is any answers to those questions. So we have had some of these questions in and we thought, well, let's do it as a podcast. And then everybody can hear the answers to these questions because it might be something that other people are thinking about as well.

Kelly Molson: So we're going to talk through some of the ones that have been sent in, and then we are going to give you a bit of a heads up about what's happening with this year's report and survey and talk a little bit about that. Sound good?

Paul Marden: Does sound good. I need to get my geek hat on my numbers. Geek hat.

Kelly Molson: It's time for Paul to nerd out. I will be asking the questions. Paul will be nerding out on the answers. Right. Okay. One of the questions we had in was how many respondents were return respondents from 2022 to 2023?

Paul Marden: Yeah. This was a question that somebody asked in relation to. They saw some changes, I think it was in terms of ticketing systems that were being used and they wanted to know, “Oh, if there's been a change in the ticketing systems that were used, could that because we've got different group of people, or is it the same people changing systems?” So, yeah, I dug into that. It was actually relatively hard to figure this out because what people type in as the name of their attraction is not always exactly the same. It's sometimes different people, sometimes they'll write the same name in a slightly different way. So actually, comparing apples with apples turned out to be quite challenging and I had to change some of the data to normalise it between the two groups.

Paul Marden: I could see they were the same attraction, although their names were subtly different. What I worked out was two different views of the same thing. But essentially, in the 2023 data set, 20% of the respondents were return respondents from the previous year. But of course, the 2023 data set was much bigger than the 2022 data set. So if you look at it from the other direction, how many people that filled in a survey in 22? Filled in a survey in 23? It's 50% of the 2022 respondents replied in 2023. So we had a good return rate? Yeah, for sure. But there was 50% of people didn't reply. So that made me think, there's a job of work to do this year.

Kelly Molson: Where did you go 50% of you. Cheeky little monkeys.

Paul Marden: And they vary. Some of them are smaller institutions, some of them are much bigger institutions. There's the reasonable amount of movement of people in the sector, isn't there? So you can easily imagine. Actually, there was an interesting one there, isn't it? What if I were to match the names of the respondents? Did we actually get a reasonable number of returners, but they were in a different job with a different institution?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really a good point, actually, because I do know that people, I know people personally, that I know that they've moved on and gone to different places, and actually, some moved out of the sector and moved into completely different roles altogether.

Paul Marden: There is a decent cohort of people that returned and responded in 23, but the 23 data set was much bigger. So when you do see swings between 22 and 23, some of that is just a sample size thing with the best will in the world. We talk to lots of people and lots of people respond with data to us, but we have not captured the whole entire set of all attractions in the UK, and so we will get sampling errors out. If one year we sample a different group of people than we did the previous year, the comparisons can be a little bit harder.

Paul Marden: If we could just get more people responding and we had more data, then you'll get that the role of chance and the role of sampling errors will have less impact on the data and you'll be able to compare more year on year outcomes.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Okay, well, there's your call out to get involved this year we'll let you know how.

Paul Marden: There's going to be lots of those.

Kelly Molson: Okay, second question. Can we break down the responses in the other type category? This is an interesting one, isn't it? Because we detailed out as many different visitor attraction types as we possibly could think of or find on internet and gave everybody the opportunity to be able to select what they specifically were, but we still had a huge amount of people put other. What's the reasoning behind that?

Paul Marden: Can I give you facts and then tell you what I think the reasoning is? Yeah. So there's some things that I know. Okay. 37% of all respondents mark themselves as the other. It skews when you drill into that 37%. It's a big group of people. It was like the second or third largest group of people in the report itself. They tended to be attractions that had lower visitor numbers. So they were under 100,000 visitor numbers in that other group. So it was about 45% of people were under 100. About 37% were between 100 and a million visitors. Those are the things we know. Then I started having a play with the data.

Paul Marden: So what if I were to group those people that were in other because they had the opportunity to type some stuff in for free text box, and could I make a grouping out of that? One thing that I did notice, and this is observation as opposed to fact. Okay. So I could see many of the places that chose other because we didn't allow them to choose multiple types and they were an attraction that had multiple things. So one of them was one of our clients. And they have a historic house. They have a guest house, they have a beach, they have outdoors activities. They've got.

Kelly Molson: So how do you categorise yourself based on all of those? Actually, with that client, I probably would have said historic house because that was what I would have put my hat on for that one.

Paul Marden: But then I met somebody yesterday. Not too dissimilar. Yeah. Primarily a historic house, but it's a historic house that has a hotel, bar, golf on the site. And if you ask them, it would totally depend on who you spoke to as to what they primarily were. There were people that ran the historic house who would have you believe that they were primarily a historic house, but there were other people that would say, “Well, actually the revenue is generated elsewhere in the organisation and primarily we are a hotel and golf destination and alongside we have a historic house.” So I think there was a nuance in the way that we asked the question, please choose what type of attraction you are. And the only option for the people that had lots of these things was to say other.

Paul Marden: And actually, I think going forwards we probably need to say, what are you primarily, and do you have other things and give people the option to choose multiples?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I was going to say, because even if you put multi, it causes the same challenge, doesn't it? Without being.

Paul Marden: But when I had to play around with that group and I tried to assign them to things partly based on what they replied on their questionnaires and partly by looking at their websites and having a guess, a lot of them had some element of outdoor activity. A lot of them had food and drink. There was a large group that weren't multi activity. I don't know what a better way to describe those historic houses with other things going on, but there was a decent size of people or decent sized number of attractions that were tv themed and they were primarily a behind the scenes tour or something themed around a tele program. And we didn't have that. There was nothing like that in any of our categorisations.

Paul Marden: So again, it just comes down to refining the questionnaire every year to try to improve what we've got. Give people the option to choose multiples and include some other groups. But avoid getting to a point when you look at all the categories we gave, because you mentioned, we gave lots of categories, there was a very long tail. There was a large number of the actual categories where it had one or two attractions within that grouping. And then it's like, is that a meaningful way of slicing and dicing the data? So we have to be really careful not to throw too many categories at it, but at the same time give people some choices.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. You also have to feel that the people have to feel that they are included within this as well. So if those one or two people came along and they couldn't choose what they were, would they feel excluded from it?

Paul Marden: Yeah. Would they drop out? Because this clearly isn't for me.

Kelly Molson: Exactly. I'm all for having more choice in that. It's a tick box. That's fine. There's other stuff that we can take out, don't worry.

Paul Marden: And that's because you're not looking at the data. Add more numbers.

Kelly Molson: I'm all for cutting stuff out if it makes life easier for people and more people will be able to fill it in and that. But I think that one particular thing is not one that we need to cut back on.

Paul Marden: No, I agree with you. Totally agree.

Kelly Molson: Were all attractions who responded to the survey paid for, or how do those ecommerce results break down between those that have an entry fee and those that are free? This was a good question.

Paul Marden: Yeah, it really was. In many of the questions that we've got, some people chose not to answer us. Within this group, there's a group of people in the whole set of data that chose not to answer this, either because they didn't know or they felt they didn't want to answer the question. But if we take everybody that reported an entry fee, 15% of those people were free of charge. So they ticked the box that said they had no entry fee. That's already a fairly small group amongst the whole data set. So we're asking questions here that zero in on a smaller and smaller group. This sounds like I'm giving excuses before I give you my homework. Yeah. But as the groups get smaller, then the role of chance and sample error means that the data becomes less and less reliable.

Paul Marden: And I got to be honest, within that 15%, there was a large number of people that didn't tell us a conversion rate. So you're down into a very small number of people now. 85% of the free to enter attractions didn't tell us what their conversion rate was or said they didn't know or couldn't measure it.

Kelly Molson: So that's interesting in itself, because this is some of the things that we've been talking about in terms of the conversion rate and how we measure that effectively, because some of those free museums obviously will have probably smaller teams, less budget, less ability, maybe just less understanding of what we're asking in the first place. My assumption is that they will use off the shelf ticketing platforms that they might not be able to get the conversion rate from. So you've got that limitation in the data that they can actually then supply us because they genuinely just don't have it, they don't know it.

Paul Marden: Or because they're free. They don't think about the concept of conversion. But in that instance, how much does it matter the number of people that come to your website and then the number of people that actually buy? If there is no ticketing, if you're free to enter and you don't even need a ticket to pre book to enter, does it even matter? And I would argue absolutely, it definitely does. Because instinctively, I would believe that there is definitely a relationship between the number of people that visit your website and the number of people that visit your attraction. And if you can improve the ratio between those two, you'll get more bookfalls through the attraction.

Paul Marden: And even if you're free to enter a considerable portion of the money that you make out of the attraction is going to be from donations, from people walking through the door. It will be food and beverage sales, it will be gift shops, it will be memberships that they join to get other things. All of those things need bums on seats, don't they? If you don't get bums on seats, you don't generate that revenue. But it can be hard, I think, to join the dots between that big number of people that visit your website, hopefully, and the number of people that are actually walking through the door and creating a correlation between, or creating a relationship between the two.

Kelly Molson: It's when there's no purchase made from that thing to that thing, there's almost nothing to tie them together.

Paul Marden: Yeah, but it makes it harder to think about which, when you're a small attraction in those sorts of circumstances, if it's harder to think about, then it's not going to be a priority for you. But I would argue it would be a super important thing to do because you tweak those. We're all about tweaking the dials, aren't we? We're all about trying to increase.

Kelly Molson: Marginal gains.

Paul Marden: Exactly. And in that instance, it can be hard to see the point. But I definitely believe there really is a point to it. If I go one more thing, I would say, and this is where the data.

Paul Marden: I don't think the data is reliable, but were into this small group of people that we had, 15% of people say that they were free, and in that group we had a small number of people tell us what their conversion rate was, and it varied. There were some attractions that had a 1% conversion rate. There were some attractions that chose the 5% conversion rate, which was the higher end of the bracket, which was the average over the whole group. I bet you there's more data that would help us to understand what the difference between the 1% and the 5% was. Is it chance or is there something materially different between those two types of institution? I don't know, but there's a debate there.

Paul Marden: And is it valuable for us to investigate that there's only so much time to be able to put to these things?

Kelly Molson: Well, I think this is why it's important. Well, this is why we value people asking the questions about the report. This is why we encourage people to give us feedback and to send us these questions in, because it all adds to the conversation and it all helps us make this better and better every year because we can understand what you send us a question and then that gives us an understanding of what's really important for you right now. So we can start to incorporate some of the ways to get the answer to that question into the survey and the report for this year.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Molson: So send us more questions. As a midway to this podcast, definitely send us some more questions. You can send them to me, Kelly@rubbercheese.com, or you can send them to paulm@rubbercheese.com but whatever you do, just send them in. And then we can again start to look at how we incorporate some of those questions into this year's.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Molson: Okay, next question. It's around ticketing platforms. One question came in and they noted the apparent percentage drop in use of access gamma in the past year. So what we saw was Digitickets and Merack both seemed to kind of hold their share, and they're UK based. With over 70% of the 188 respondents UK based and about a quarter of European. We found it a little odd that there was such a drop here in such a short space of time and wondered if you had any further insight. Interesting one, isn't it, because we all noted that access had dropped off a little bit.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to caveat this again. I can go into more depth and understand the differences between the two, but I would caveat it that if we had more responsive, we could be more confident in the reliability of the difference across years. But we've gone from a large, but a sample in 22, a bigger sample in 23. The 23 sample included some of the 22 people. But really, I think what the question I was getting at is how many of those people actually switch ticketing platforms between that group? And I think that is unlikely to be the reason why we saw these changes. Yeah, of course people change ticketing platform, but it's the beating heart of the business. They don't change it on a whim and they don't change them dramatically very quickly. Yeah.

Paul Marden: By the way, there's no evidence to this in that respect. There could be changes, but my instinct is it's unlikely to be a wild change on the basis of the number of people because it's just not that easy to.

Kelly Molson: No. And we speak to agencies, our own clients have been through these processes, and we know how long they take and we know how embedded those systems are within an organisation and how difficult it actually is to switch from one to another and the time frame that it takes. So I would agree with you.

Paul Marden: On the basis of that. I think the differences are more easily explained by we got more different people included. And we're seeing more of what the sector buys. Now, whether, when we get into 24, whether we see another swing again. Well, that's entirely plausible, because the sample sizes, they're not big enough to be statistically valid. They give an indication, but they will suffer from chance in some areas. And it could just be the group of people that we've got, we know within the year demonstrates the usage of the ticketing platforms within the group of people that responded within that year, but unlikely to be comparable across the years. Only 20% of this year's data were responses that had been given in 22 as well.

Paul Marden: So we've only got a small group. Within that group the data has changed dramatically in that year, mainly with people telling us they chose an other not listed system. So it was not one of the big ones that were familiar with, and no one reported anything in that group last year. So this is where you know as well as I do, we get people asking us for copies of their data that they've submitted, because there's a big period of timing between when they submit stuff and the report being published, and then they want to see what they did, what they gave to us, don't they? So people remembering what they wrote last year and putting it in again this year, it's no wonder we see differences between the two year groups. Apart from other not listed, which was by far like a country mile than largest number of responses.

Paul Marden: The biggest absolute change in the number of responses within the repeating group was digitickets. Digitickets had more people within that returning group saying that they were using their ticketing platform.

Kelly Molson: And I can't remember this off the top of my head, but where people are selecting other not listed, are we giving them the opportunity to write who they are using? So did we give them an open.

Paul Marden: Such an unfair question? I can't remember the answer.

Kelly Molson: I genuinely can't remember. But if we didn't, well, then we need to, because that space, I mean, there's a lot of ticketing platforms already, but there are new ones popping up all over and there are ones that are specifically focused on accessibility for an example. There are ones that are relatively similar in terms of what they're doing to everyone else, just packaged up in a different way. So it would just be interesting to see some of the names that people were putting forward and where people are swinging to.

Kelly Molson: We know that there's Tessitura, for example, and Spektrix that are used quite predominantly in theatre world now. People have always talked really positively about those two platforms and it would be interesting to see if they are looking to make that transition over into the attractions world.And maybe some of these people are starting to kind of move over to those. Who knows?

Paul Marden: There's a few systems lots of people know about because they're not just pure ticketing, are they? They're ticketing. So they manage the ticket inventory, they do online sales, they do walk ups, they do EPOS, they manage a shop, they manage a catering, they do everything to operate the entire attraction. And then there were other systems that focus purely on ecommerce and the sale of the tickets themselves online. There are other people that focus purely on the EPOS offering. And actually, there's a lot of complexity within these systems that go to running the attraction itself. And maybe again, we need to give people more choice about what they choose and give them the opportunity to choose multiple things. Because we might say, do you use gamma or do you use Merac or do you use Digitickets?

Paul Marden: And there may well be people that use digitickets for their e commerce sales, and they might use Merac for their membership, or they're running the epochs in the shops and their food and beverage. I don't think we give people the opportunity to have the nuance of selecting multiple things that they use.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, for like, I literally just had a conversation with someone who uses Digitickets for their ticket in, but Merac for their K-Three, for their till. So, yeah, I totally see where we need to do that. Okay, good. Two more questions. Is there future scope to develop comparisons against other science centres?

Paul Marden: Yes is the short answer, and yes, we have done that. It's quite interesting because you and I both have been talking about this year's survey at different places and the science centres one is a good example. It’s good because I was the one talking. Well, it's good because I was the one, but. So I went to the Association of Science and Discovery Centres conference in Belfast. I talked about that one of the pods just recently, and I had a table talk where I was talking about essentially observations that I found about the data about science centres. But you've done talks in numerous different locations.

Kelly Molson: All over the place. I was all over the place last year. Here, there and everywhere.

Paul Marden: Slicing and dicing the data to talk to the group of people that you were talking to. So you were in Ireland and you talked about comparisons of the attractions that we've got in both the Republic and Northern Ireland. And then you talked to know that's a different slice of larger attractions. And in both cases, were slicing and dicing the data and trying to find what made that group of people special or what were the observations that we had, weren't they?

Kelly Molson: That was one of the nice things about the report this year, because the data set was so much larger, we could make the things that were talking about so much more specific for people. So the ALVA talk was really great, actually. So I was very kindly invited along to speak at one of the ALVA council meetings. And it was at Bletchley Park, oh my goodness. In their new auditorium that were the first group to speak in there. It was wonderful, such a good experience.

Kelly Molson: But that was lovely because I was able to talk about how ALVA members are performing and give them a specific breakdown of the things that they're doing well, some of the things that they potentially not doing so well, and give them some real insight into how they can improve on the things when they're not doing so well. So that was lovely. And then the same at AVEA. It was great to be able to give, again, a breakdown of how irish attractions are performing in terms of the rest of the country, but also showcase attractions that are doing really brilliantly from those areas. So actually in the talks I could highlight a specific Irish attraction that was doing an absolutely phenomenal job in terms of great website, great conversion rate, all of those things.

Kelly Molson: And it was really nice to be able to shine spotlight on people this year as well.

Paul Marden: So pick out some examples of that. Yeah, so let's just pick out some of the examples from the science centre. So the ASDC members, it was interesting because ASDC members tended to have higher football than when you compared it to the whole group of respondents that we had. That surprised me. ASDC members tended to have higher entry fees than all respondents. ASDC members tended to have substantially higher mobile usage than all respondents. So you're up into 90% of traffic for ASDC members or ASDC members tended to have upwards of 89%, 90% mobile traffic, whereas when you look at the whole group of everybody, it was down into 60%. So still the majority, but not as big a majority.

Kelly Molson: That's interesting.

Paul Marden: So again, is this chance or is there something interesting about the audience that buy tickets to go to a science centre. Are they genuinely different than people that go to the all set?

Kelly Molson: Well, yeah. Is this stereotypically because someone is really interested in science and technology, therefore they are more digitally advanced potentially as an audience. And that's why that's higher. That's interesting.

Paul Marden: ASDC members tend to spend less of their gross profit on marketing. 18% of ASDC members spent more than 5% of their turnover on marketing, whereas when you look at the whole group, 24% of all respondents spent more than 5%. So it's interesting, isn't it, this difference in the outcomes and the difference for the inputs. ASDC members were much more likely to track their conversion rate, but most of them didn't track their cart abandonment rate. So they don't know how many people were giving up partway through. ASDC members were more likely to have a top level conversion rate. And of the ones that did tell us what their cart abandonment rate, it was more likely to be lower than the average. They updated their websites more frequently and they tend to spend more on their websites each year than the average.

Paul Marden: So there was markedly different things that happened across the different groups when you looked at ALVA, much larger organisations. So footfall is higher because that's a minimum entry criteria. They spend more on marketing and they have better outcomes. They had better conversion rates than average.

Kelly Molson: Unsurprising.

Paul Marden: Unsurprising completely. But what was interesting was within that group, the averages marked quite relative poor performance. So there were some examples where there were attractions spending a large amount on their site, but achieving poorer conversion rates than the average.

Kelly Molson: Hopefully those aren’t clients. Fingers crossed.

Paul Marden: So yeah, there's group averages and you can see differences by the different groups. I think in future, wouldn't it be interesting if potentially we did this sort of analysis based on the type of organisation? If you're a museum, are you more likely to have a higher conversion rate than you are if you're all respondents?

Kelly Molson: Well, this is the thing.

Paul Marden: What's of interest?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, exactly. We can say, oh, this is interesting. Wouldn't this be useful to know? But actually is it useful to know for you? One of the things that we did talk about doing was doing a regional breakdown of how attraction is performing. And I think that's probably on the cards for the next month or so to get that out. We raised that and got some quite good feedback on having that. So that's definitely top of the list.

Kelly Molson: But yeah, again, are these things going to be useful for you? We've always had the ethos that any kind of information or support documentation or essentially our marketing has to be useful for you. Right? What's the point otherwise? We need to know what you need. So more questions, please more. Do you have this? Can we have this? If we can't do it, we'll tell you, but if we can do it, we'll damn well work hard to get you it.

Paul Marden: You can just imagine that some people find the full written port to be report to be really useful. It gives a fixed set of slices and dices and it gives interesting insights and it gives recommendation. But people might be interested more in more group comparisons or geographical comparisons with less of a large report and more of a. Well, I want to see a white paper about my sector or my location or what is special about me compared to everybody else, as opposed to telling me everything that is good in the sector. Where do we focus our attention to have the best value for people at the end of this?

Kelly Molson: Good. Last question. Is there a correlation between conversion rate and visitor numbers?

Paul Marden: It's really interesting because this got me playing with the data. I'm all over a pivot table in excel. All right, so I did loads of analysis.

Kelly Molson: I am not.

Paul Marden: No. We've got our strengths and weaknesses and complement each other very well, I think when I did this first time round and I was working with a team of people that were analysing data, but I was slicing and dicing in different ways and I looked at these things and I thought there was no great relationship. But when this question came in, I had another stab at reorganising the data. And actually I did a heat map version of what is your average sales conversion rate? And we've got like zero to one to two, three to four to five and more than five. And then what is your annual visitor numbers in groups?

Paul Marden: And actually, the larger the annual footfall on site, the more likely you were to have a high conversion rate.

Kelly Molson: Just for our listeners, this data is quite difficult to visualise. We've got a graph, we've got some pre pictures that will explain this better, which we will put out on social media. If you follow our Twitter account, or if you're connected with us on LinkedIn, or follow our LinkedIn Rubber Cheese, or Skip the Queue LinkedIn pages, we'll put all of that on there. What we'll also do as well is when we edit this podcast, we always do a video. The videos don't get a lot of love, but there's loads of videos up on our YouTube. So head over to the Rubber Cheese YouTube channel and within this episode we will insert what we're talking about as well. So it's just a bit easier to digest.

Paul Marden: So yeah, there is definitely a relationship between these two factors. The more footfall there is, the more likely you are to have a high conversion rate. Just intuitively, they must be related variables. This is not just a relationship between the two. There is somehow one is feeding into the other the more footfall you have, the more budget you're going to have, the more you'll be able to invest in marketing, the more you invest in marketing, you'll have more people focusing on different elements of your marketing and you'll have more budget to spend on digital people that can focus on conversion rates and marginal gains. I don't know whether that's true. The data doesn't prove that. That's just my instinct that spending money on people like me is probably a worthwhile investment. But that's just instinct. There's no proof for that.

Paul Marden: The heat map shows there's a relationship, but there's loads of factors involved in what goes on. As I said to you before, spending more money does not guarantee you great outputs. And you have to measure these things, make regular changes, because just because you've got a large number of people coming through the door does not guarantee you a high conversion rate. And you need to graft to get to the point where your website is converting as best it possibly can. One major redesign does not an increased conversion rate may you need to do lots of little things regularly to nudge it in the right direction.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's just the start. Yeah. That comes back to what I said at the beginning about. I was just about to say we're at the end of the project. I'm like, no, we're not star of the project because the project is launching. That's the starting point for the rest of the process.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Molson: Oh, this has been really good. Well, look, listeners, hopefully you found that useful. Hopefully some of the listeners that are listening, we've answered your questions as well. We'll send this out to all the people that did ask the questions specifically as well. But yeah, coming back to what we've said, is there something that is a burning question from you, from the data that we've already released? Is there something that would be so incredibly useful for you that we haven't released that we might potentially have? We just don't know. Or we don't know that you need it. And what does this year's survey hold and what would be useful for the survey and the report to hold for you this year? So we are at the point now where we're gearing up for the 2024 survey.

Kelly Molson: Last year we launched it in May at the fabulous Museum and Heritage show. Plans are afoot at the moment for when we launch it, but nothing is diarised yet. So it's a really good opportunity to get involved and have your say about what you'd love to see in it this year.

Paul Marden: Yeah. There's some key themes that have come out of our kind of retrospective. We've been belly button gazing and questioning what do we do next year? And there's obvious things that come out of it. One of our big things was we want to simplify 2024. We asked too many too complex questions last year and it took too long for people to submit their responses. And that's not fair.

Kelly Molson: It's a big ask that we're asking of you to trust us with your data as it is. We don't want you sitting around for like half an hour having to fill it all out.

Paul Marden: So we want to simplify, we want less questions, and we're going to look at potentially a different questionnaire platform. We've done different platforms each year in the last two years and I don't think we found the right answer yet. So that might be an area that we try and simplify things. My instinct of, and this is just based on my own struggles with life. Okay. I am struggling with Google Analytics 4 for everybody. All of my data has moved and I don't know how to answer my questions. And that data that's in GA4, it's the core of the questions that we ask in the questionnaire. And I'm thinking, if I do this every day, what must it be like for all of you guys listening? So what can we do to help you understand how to gather the data and how to submit it?

Paul Marden: Because there's obviously going to be a disparity, isn't there, between people that do this every day and people that do this as part of a bigger job and they don't do it all the time and they need advice and guidance.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So one of the ideas that's been floating around is that we actually put on little workshop or little webinars, which it shows you how to go and get the data that actually is needed to fill in the survey. And then that's with you. It's a reference point. You can keep hold of that for the following years and the following, the subsequent years. And we might look at, we've got a brilliant circle of fabulous suppliers that we work with that are all attractions focused, and so we could potentially partner up with them and run the workshops and do something like that.

Paul Marden: The questions that we're asking, the data that we're gathering is likely to be marketers' dream dashboards anyway. So it's not just of use to the survey itself, it's of use to your day to day month to month reporting and demonstrating the efficacy of what you're doing. We want to increase the number of people that are responding from large multi site organisations. So the plea call to action here for digital markets is in large multi sites. We were interested in talking to you about. If you've got 50 odd sites that you manage ticketing for and multiple attractions all over the country, filling in the questionnaire based form approach that we've given may not be the right way for you to share data with us. No, we're really flexible. We want data. We want to ingest more data because it improves the quality of the responses.

Paul Marden: So we'll be completely flexible around what different large multi site organisations can provide and the method with which it makes most sense for them to provide it.

Kelly Molson: So what are we doing? We're doing a vocal shout out here to National Trust, English Heritage, et cetera, to say if you want to be part of the survey and the subsequent report and the process that we're offering you, it doesn't work. You're not going to sit there 50 times, however many sites you've got and fill in this data. That's ridiculous. We can give you a better process of doing that and we can work with you one on one to work out how that works best for you as well.

Paul Marden: Completely.

Kelly Molson: If you do want to be involved, don't let the process of how we collect the data put you off. We can solve that challenge for you.

Paul Marden: Shout out, call to action. Really for everybody that submitted last year and would be thinking about this year's survey is tell us what key themes are of interest to you. We have what we think is interesting and we'll follow our noses and ask questions and ruble around the data to try and find the answers. But we don't know what you want as well as you know what you want. So tell us, as you said, Kelly, ask questions about what you'd like to see, but tell us what you'd like us to do. We might be able to do something really easily based on the data that we've already got. We might need to ask another question. There was a question that somebody asked that weren't able to answer.

Paul Marden: They wanted to know whether you were primarily educationally focused as an institution or primarily focused on selling tickets, whether that had an impact on your conversion rate. And actually, without us guessing, it's impossible for us to answer that question. And what's the point in us guessing because we're going to give you meaningless data if we ask the right questions. What's the primary focus of your website? What are the secondary focuses of your website? If we do that, then we might be able to slice and dice the data. So ask us the questions now because we can use that to influence what questions we include in the survey.

Kelly Molson: I would add to also as well, if you are well, to say thank you. We had a phenomenal amount of support with the survey last year and the report. But for us, being able to move from 70 respondents in year one to nearly 200 in year two, the difference in that was all of the membership organisations that supported. It's a mammoth task. There's no way I could have done that on my own just by sending it lots of people and hitting people up on LinkedIn and posting across social media. The biggest difference there is the support we've had. I mean, ALVA, ASVA have been huge supporters of us from the start, which we're super grateful for this year. We had AVEA come on board and help us. We've had AIM help us. We had ACE help us.

Paul Marden: We had ASDC.

Kelly Molson: ASDC. I mean there were just so many. I've got a huge list of all of the attractions and all of the kind of Hampshire's best attractions and these smaller regional attraction organisations that have supported Devon's top attractions. Without their support, we could not have done that, made that happen. So I guess what I'm asking for is continued support, please, would be great. And are there any other organisations out there that we should be talking to? And if there's any listening that haven't been involved in helping us distribute the survey this year, if you're up for it, give us a shout. I mean, the benefit to your members is phenomenal, right? What we produce for them and it's all free. It's all for free. Come and get it.

Paul Marden: That is a nice segue because yes, it's all for free, but it doesn't cost nothing. And actually what we would also like help with is sponsorship for 2024. So if there are organisations around the listening public, as it were, that would be interested in supporting the work that we do on this and would like to influence and help guide what we do, then we would be really keen on talking to people that would like to sponsor and that sponsorship could be gifting kind. So some people might be able to help us by doing things with us. Some people might be able to help us by financially supporting the data analysis or the production of reports or production of specific analyses of a slice of the sector that is of interest to them.

Paul Marden: There's lots of ways in which people could support the work that we do. And obviously the more support that we get, the bigger we can make this thing, because it is. I mean, it's a herculean task that you dreamt up two and a half, three years ago, isn't it? And you did the first one and it was amazing and you got a decent number of respondents and I think you were both amazed at the number of people that gave us data and downloaded the report and interacted with us. And then were blown away in 23. But we need to do more. There's a market for this. There's a value in what we're doing. It's not just chance. It wasn't a crackpot idea you had three years ago to do this.

Kelly Molson: It was not a crackpot idea about it at all. No, it wasn't a crackpot idea. It's really nice, actually. You've just given me a really good flashback, actually. The Museum and Heritage Show has played like a part in this for years, actually, because the survey itself launched last year at the MandH. But the previous year I sat down at the MandH and had a chat with Bernard Donoghue about. I've got this idea, Bernard, and I think this is good. I think this would deliver some real good value to the sector. Would ALVA be happy to help get the word out and stuff? And that was where it started. So isn't that funny that's a connection? I'd forgotten all about that. It's not crackpot. It is amazing and I'm so happy that we've been able to produce this.

Kelly Molson: The value that it delivers to the sector, I get. People tell me about the value. So this is not me going, it's definitely delivering value. The feedback that we've had has been so incredibly positive on it and it's just been wonderful to be part of that. So let's make next year's bigger and even better. But maybe some less questions so it doesn't take you as long.

Paul Marden: Yes, more rows in my spreadsheet, less columns in my spreadsheet.

Kelly Molson: Less time taken up. If you can do it over a cup of tea and a biscuit, then that's perfect, right?

Paul Marden: I reckon so.

Kelly Molson: Hopefully that's going to produce some good value today and we'll see you next time.

Paul Marden: Cheers. Take care.

Kelly Molson: Bye.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE!

Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
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enMarch 06, 2024

What the heck is a brand proposition and why should you care? With Catherine Warrilow

Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.theplotthickens.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinewarrilow/

Arival link - https://arival.travel/speakers/catherine-warrilow/

TikTok link - https://www.tiktok.com/@the5minutementor

Catherine Warrilow has 16 years industry experience and runs The Plot. She creates brand proposition roadmaps for attraction and experience businesses who want to take a slightly rebellious approach to their marketing strategy.

Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

On today’s episode I speak with Catherine Warrilow, founder of The Plot, a brand marketing agency.

Today we’re immersing ourselves in brand. I’m asking Catherine what the heck is a brand proposition, why is it important and who in the tourism and attraction industry is absolutely nailing it?

Kelly Molson: You can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue.

Catherine Warrilow: Thank you very much, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: I'm really excited that you have come on to chat today. Catherine and I met in a toilet at a conference, which is where you meet all of the best people at conferences, I have to say. But I'm really chuffed that you've been able to come on and join us today. So thank you for your time. Right, we are going to start with our icebreakers, as usual. And I want to know, what would people remember you for that you went to school with?

Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh. Probably the thing I remember the most, I don't know if anyone else would, is when body shop was at its height of popularity and all of their perfumes and stuff and their perfume oils. And I bought the vanilla one, which I was obsessed with, but I covered myself in the kind of the neat essence. So I spent a whole day at school smelling of ice creams with every teacher walking past going, "Why can I smell ice cream?". And everyone, "It's her.". So that is one of my standout memories. I think I was always quite creative and quirky, and I would braid my own hair like I'd been on holiday and put beads in it and come to school like that. Or smelling of ice creams.

Kelly Molson: I love that. I feel like we're of the same era. And my lasting memory of the body shop is the Dewberry. The dewberry smell. You never smelt this any other time like that school time. And I had a friend who used to buy the oil and the shampoo and all, and she just smelt of that continuously. But that was my grandparents name as well, so it was really weird. Their name was Dewberry. Anyway, very od. Good memories. And I quite like that you smell like ice cream. I would love that about you.

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, it's worse things to smell of.

Kelly Molson: Okay, second one, if you had to pick a fictional character to best describe yourself, who would you choose?

Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh. My instant one that I would like to say, but I'm not smart enough, would be Matilda. I would love to be Matilda, but I'm not. So who would it be? A fictional character? Gosh, that's so difficult. Maybe like Thelma from Scooby Doo. Problem solver.

Kelly Molson: Yep. Quick on her. Yeah, I can see that about you. Good one. You've got Matilda vibes as well. Don't dumb that down. You've definitely got Matilda vibes going on.

Catherine Warrilow: Well, I'll keep trying to move things with my mind and I'll let you know if I have any success.

Kelly Molson: Good. Come back on the podcast, let us know. Okay. What is your unpopular opinion? What have you prepared for us?

Catherine Warrilow: So I think this is one that's going to resonate with a lot of people and it's unpopular but common that travel tech is shit. So I don't get it. I don't get why we are so far behind other sectors, especially with ticketing tech. We sell billions of tickets to some of the most interesting and amazing attractions in the world. Not just in the country, in the world. Yet we still have major attractions who are having to reconcile paper tickets either because they're stuck with their tech, because they've had it so long they can't get away from it, or they're just not sure how to, or it's so difficult or slow or expensive. There must be someone or an organisation who can fix this, right?

Catherine Warrilow: And I know people are trying, like Okto are trying, which is great, but surely there must be an easier way to get the right people around the table and say, "Right. In every instance when you sell a ticket to a customer, it should kind of look like this.". But at the moment, everyone's got different systems. None of them talk to each other. Everyone's slightly different when they break. It could take months to fix. And ultimately it's the customer who loses out because we can't deliver a really effective service. Whether in OTA or an attraction yourself, it's the customer that's left with a bad experience, by and large, because the ticket you booked has vanished from your basket, or it was available 1 minute and now it's not. Or the price has changed, or something weird, you don't even get your email. Or it's confusing.

Catherine Warrilow: Which is why there's so little brand loyalty in our sector, I think. Because people will hop about and just book with whoever's quickest, easiest, cheapest at the time. And I think we've got a real challenge on our hands to up our game when it comes to tech. I don't know what you think.

Kelly Molson: Well, I'm nodding along for people that aren't watching and are listening to this, I'm nodding along probably from a different perspective because we deal directly with the ticketing that the attraction would use. So their ticketing platform for something. I think you're probably a bit more focused on the OTAs and that kind of ticketing kind of stuff. I am in total agreement with you. I am completely nodding along going that there's nothing amazing and there should be something amazing.

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, I think it's unifying it. I think there's some good tech out there, and I'm not going to names, but there's some good tech. There's some average tech and there's some awful tech. But for the OTA and for the connectivity partner at that level, and ultimately for the customer. How do you bring together what's good and make it accessible across the board? I think that's the challenge, isn't it? How do we unify things so it's straightforward and you know what that process for B2B process should look like. And I think we're making progress, but I think it's slow.

Catherine Warrilow: And I think there has been so much change in the sector from a kind of customer perspective, from a trend perspective, from the impacts of COVID from the impacts of the cost of living crisis, that it always seems to get pushed back in the queue a little bit. Whereas it needs to be at the top of the list all of the time. But that takes a lot of time and resource and dev and investment. But I've heard whisperings of a few people who are doing quite interesting things. So I'll be interested to see what happens over the next kind of 6,9,12 months.

Kelly Molson: I think that's a challenge, isn't it? There's quite a lot of choice and it seems like every day there's a new ticketing platform or another OTA that's kind of that started and for good reasons, because obviously there's things out there that aren't working for people. But a bit more collaboration might stop giving people so much choice and actually start working together to refine the ones that are already out there and just make them better.

Catherine Warrilow: Potentially, yeah. Or give them one aggregated channel that they can all slot into in the same way. Because even when you aggregate systems, the way you integrate them is still different. I'm still trying to figure out where that ownership needs to start. Is it the attractions and experiences saying, "Okay, we have to be able to deliver this for the customer," because ultimately, starting with the customer need is the right place to start? But how do you layer that back through the process to figure out where to start fixing the right problems?

Kelly Molson: And you're right in what you said about that brand perception, then it's on the attraction, it's not on the OTA really, it's on the brand. And they need to kind of own that relationship with their client, which is what we're going to talk about today. So tell us a little bit about your background and where you've got today.

Catherine Warrilow: Yes. Which makes me feel old. Some days I feel like a spring chicken and other days I'm like, "How have I been doing this for like 15 years?".

Kelly Molson: I feel that.

Catherine Warrilow: So I got married in 2007 and shortly after we had our first son, which is all very exciting and challenging at the same time. And alongside that, I decided that it would be a great idea to start my own business with a newborn baby and that if I could do that, then everything from there on in would be a breeze, which was kind of ridiculous looking back. But I set up as a kind of freelance PR and marketing support and fell into travel totally by accident. I knew someone who was running the team at owners direct at the time, the holiday rentals company, and they wanted someone to come in and basically secure them pr coverage as being a great choice for booking holiday rental, mainly UK and Europe, but some further afield. And it just kind of spiralled from there.

Catherine Warrilow: I realised that there was a massive opportunity to up people's game when it came to pr and content, and that was before everything was about content creation and social. It was on the cusp of, "Okay, we can use Facebook to reach people organically and people just weren't really doing that.". It was pre having to pay to play. And I started making a bit of a name for myself within travel and started working for home away, which is now Vrbo. People like hard rock hotels, great little breaks. And it just grew from there. And I grew the business to a very small agency in rural Oxfordshire of about six people. And that's how I kind of accidentally fell into travel.

Kelly Molson: I love that. I had no idea that it was an accidental as well. For some reason I thought that was it. That was always going to be your focus. It's amazing how these kind of things happen that guide our career, isn't it?

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, it just happened. And then we pitched actually for the pr for Days Out With The Kids many years ago. And were up against some really big agencies and I was like, "This is it. This is our kind of big moment.". And we really held our own against kind of top Manchester, Birmingham, London agencies. And in the end, the CEO at the time asked if I would go in house to set up their marketing strategy, their brand strategy, hire a team. They'd not long bought the business and it was covered in display ads and it was a mess, but it was driving millions of organic visits every year.

Catherine Warrilow: And it was a cliche sliding doors moment where I was like, look, I've spent nine years building up this incredible business and it's my baby and I love it and I feel proud to have built it up, but this is an incredible opportunity to do something amazing. So I ended up kind of selling the business and going into Days Out With The Kids, which was just such a great decision because it gave me probably what I was craving in terms of building effective teams and working for household name brands. And that was the start of me going into employed roles for about, gosh, another eight or so years.

Kelly Molson: Great. And now you've set off on another new adventure.

Catherine Warrilow: Yes, because we reinvent ourselves, don't we? And go where the opportunities feel most exciting. Yeah. So I lost my job with Days Out last September, which was gutting, because again, that passion for building the most incredible teams was real. I hired some of the best people that I have ever hired and we're still great friends now, but when I left there, I was like, "Okay, I will apply for roles and I will ask my network if they would like to work with me.". It was as simple as that. I will figure this out as I go along. You know me, I'm quite an honest, heart on sleeve type person. I'm a bit of an oversharer. So I went onto LinkedIn and said I was gutted to say that I wasn't with days out anymore, but that the world was my oyster.

Catherine Warrilow: And then people just started popping up from connections I've had for years. Connections through things like Arival, through other podcasts that I've done in the past, through content I've created, through past clients, all sorts, right back to my very early career. And I was like, "Actually, I think there is a big opportunity here for me to go back out on my own.". And I knew from the start I didn't want to build an agency. I didn't want to hire people. I just wanted to use all of that experience I've built up over travel over the last 15, 16 years and help people solve brand proposition problems that they can't see themselves with a slight rebellious streak in the middle of working with people who don't want to just follow the crowd. They want to do things a bit differently.

Catherine Warrilow: They want to stand up and be heard and it's just gone from there. So I took on my first paying client at the beginning of November and it's incredible and I bloody love it. And I'm so glad that I fell back into this way of working and I just feel very lucky that I've been able to stay in the sector that I absolutely love.

Kelly Molson: I'm so touched for you. I've got a big smile on my face as you're saying. I've watched your journey and I've watched how it's kind of played out. It's really interesting. Someone said to me a little while ago, you never know who's watching you never know who's taking interest. And I kind of like that. And I think you are someone that I've always, we have genuinely only met once in real life, in a toilet at a conference. But I've followed you for a long time on LinkedIn, and I've seen how helpful and supportive you are to the sector, and I've seen a lot of your posts that go out and talking about other issues and things like that as well, very openly and publicly.

Kelly Molson: I've always really admired that about you and I think you are someone who's super helpful and stuff like that comes back tenfold. So when you put that post out, I know how tough that was. Like, I felt the emotion in that post for you, but was just like, I'd read that post, I was like, "She's got nothing to worry about here at all.". And I could see people comment in and I'm going to connect you to the, "Oh, we should talk, we should do this.". And I was like, "There you go. Good people. Good things come back to in tenfold.". So it's lovely to see you in this position.

Catherine Warrilow: And it was amazing. And that gave me, I think, the foundation I needed to get back out there and carry on attending events and carry on creating content and sharing my thoughts and ideas and all of that kind of thing. And it was funny because a while before that, I'd asked a handful of people from my network kind of, what am I known for? And would you recommend me? And what would you recommend me for? And someone came back and said, "You care more about the result than you do about people's opinions.". And I think that sums me up quite well because I want the best outcome, whether that's for me and my business or for a partner that I'm working for. And I'm happy to say things people might not want to hear because I know it will get them a better outcome.

Catherine Warrilow: And I think that's so important. And I think hopefully that comes across when I either talk to people or I post online that I am authentically who I say I am and you will genuinely get the best of me regardless of how big the challenge is. And that's really important to me. I'd say that's kind of a big part of my values is to share authentic truth rather than either kind of saying what everyone else is saying or saying what someone wants to hear, which will put people off as well. And that's kind of a good screening process in a way.

Kelly Molson: Yes. It's a good way to cherry pick who's the right client, definitely wants to work for me and they're going to get me as well. I love this. Right, okay, we're going to talk about brand today. We're going to talk about brand proposition. What the heck is a brand proposition for our lovely listeners?

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, and it's a big question. It's basically everything a brand stands for. Absolutely everything a brand stands for. And that sounds quite overwhelming, but really it's not. It's a combination of kind of vision, mission, values. So where are you trying to get to and what are you doing to get there and how are you being when you do that? So what are the kind of the morals and values that underpin the business and that foundation takes you through everything to the point which you sell a product or service to a customer. And that will be everything from your tone of voice and your brand personality, how your brand looks and feels aesthetically, the channels you use to communicate with people and sell through.

Catherine Warrilow: So it really is everything that kind of makes up what matters about a brand and what makes it different and why ultimately a customer would buy from you versus someone else. Which is why I touched on the kind of the challenges with ticketing in our sector because that is a huge obstacle for lots of OTAs in managing their brand proposition effectively because it will have a real knock on effect on the perception their customer has of that brand.

Kelly Molson: And that element of it is slightly out of their control as well, isn't it? Which is unfortunate. What I like about this is that we are, I think as a whole, we're kind of coming away from that thing where people used to go, "Oh, I've got my brand sorted, because I've got my logo.". No, that's a brand element. This is not what we're talking about here. Why is brand proposition so important to get right.

Catherine Warrilow: I think brand proposition comes down to what you sell, who to and for what gain. And the gain is the customer problem. So what problem do you solve for that customer? So days out, as an example, were going after the younger end of the audience who just want to find something with bragging rights and book it quick with the trust and ease of use of real person customer service on Whatsapp and pay with Klana. So book it Whatsapp to make sure you've got your tickets right backs and forwards with a real human being in real time and then pay for it later. So we knew exactly who were, who for and for what gain for that customer. That's why you have to get it right.

Catherine Warrilow: And I speak to a lot of people who, a lot of clients who say they fall at the first hurdle with the first question, which is, "Who are you targeting?" And they're like, "Well, everyone who wants to travel.". And you're like, "No, you're not." 100% not. You might want to be on the radar of lots and lots of people, and lots of people might buy from you, but most people won't because there is so much choice. You've got to know exactly who you are talking to and why you fit the needs and the values of that person. And those values need to be reciprocal because you will never create brand ambassadors otherwise. You will create transient customers who will buy from you once and then move on. And that's an expensive customer to have.

Catherine Warrilow: Whereas if your brand proposition is spot on and everything in the way you do business and the way you communicate, the way your customer service team communicate is consistent, people will buy into that feeling as well as what they're paying money for. And the booking process is part of what they're paying for. And that is part of the reason they will pay more, because they know it's quick and easy and if anything goes wrong, you'll sort it and they will pay 5% more for the privilege of that. Which means your pricing strategy is healthier as well. So all of these different things make up the brand proposition, not just the way your website looks or your logo. If it's lairy and orange and pink and green, that is not going to stand you apart from everyone else. It might get you noticed once.

Catherine Warrilow: But all of that substance of your brand proposition below, that is what will engage, retain a customer, create an ambassador out of them, i.e. They will leave a positive review, they will engage with your content, they will share your content, all of those things.

Kelly Molson: That word substance is really important in this conversation, isn't it? Because a lot of people still, I think, view brand as very much the kind of aesthetic layer that sits on top of that. But it is about substance. This brand proposition has to run through the core of everything that you do. And it's not just about the visuals, it's about how you speak to people, your tone of voice, all of that kind of stuff as well. How do you start to shape that proposition? Where does an organisation start with that?

Catherine Warrilow: Like I said before, it starts with that vision mission values piece. Because if you are not clear on where you are trying to get to, then how do you even start building things like content pillars, for example? And quite often there's a vision stuck up on the wall, in the office, in the meeting room, which no one could recite back to you and it actually doesn't mean anything. So having substance within the vision is the first point of call. The mission is how you get there and what you're doing to get there. And if you don't know that, you can't create goals, if you haven't got measurable goals, how do you define what success looks like?

Catherine Warrilow: And that takes you into things like understanding your products and your revenue streams, because you might have really popular products and you're like, "Oh yeah, we're selling loads of these tools. They're so popular, everyone loves them. But why is that?". Is it because you're the cheapest on the market? And actually, if you look at your numbers, are you making any profit on that product? Because there's a massive difference between popular and profitable. So it matters because at the heart of the business is a need to be profitable. You want a product and service that people love and is profitable and that people rave about. And it drives you loads of repeat business and loads of new business through word of mouth.

Catherine Warrilow: But to get to the point where you can set those goals that are measurable, you have to know where you're trying to get to. And what often happens, and what I find with a lot of partners is their vision is either ten years old and they're still kind of running around in circles trying to figure out how they get there. And it's not that anymore, because the market's changed, the customers changed, pricing has changed, they've got goals, but they're not measurable, or they've got customers and they never talk to them, they never ask them what they can do better or where else they buy from. So they've got no data, they've got a website that performs pretty well, but they never look at the analytics, so they don't know how they're acquiring customers or how much is costing them to acquire a customer.

Catherine Warrilow: And that all of a sudden feels very messy and complicated, doesn't it? It feels overwhelming to start picking things off to make sure those things are happening in a sensible, logical order that takes you from A to B to make a profit. So I kind of break all those different things down into sections, create a roadmap specifically for the business, and bring to the table all of my expertise to start aligning those things. And what will happen is we'll find some massive gaps. The vision is totally wrong, or they're going after the whole market and they don't really know who their customer is, or so they're trying to talk to everybody, so their tone of voice is just beige, or their goals aren't the right goals, or they're not measurable, or they're measuring the wrong things.

Catherine Warrilow: And you start to see where those opportunities are and you start to see the holes that need to be plugged. And suddenly brand proposition feels like a much simpler, tangible route forward, rather than this kind of crazy maze of stuff that you just don't know where to navigate first.

Kelly Molson: Something you said at the start of that was really interesting, actually, as an aside question is somebody's mission or their vision, and the mission might be completely misaligned now it's been in place for ten years or so, and they're visiting it and the market has changed. How frequently should you look at those things? Like, I get my organisation together tomorrow, we set our new vision and mission. You would hope that we would be kind of checking in on that. Are we all aligned? Are we scenario? How often do you think that changes for people? And how frequently should you kind of refer back to it and go, "Is this still relevant?".

Catherine Warrilow: That's such a good question and I think it should be in mind daily. And if a business is asked what their vision is and they can't recite it off like that, then it's not right or it's too complicated. And I did a big exercise with a client a couple of weeks ago, which was actually around their why and their purpose, because it was really important to them that they were running an ethical, sustainable business, that they gave something back to the community. But their why was about an, a four page long. And I challenged them on it and they said, "Oh yeah, well, actually the community part is really important to us and it wasn't in there anyway anywhere.". So what I did is an exercise where we distilled it down bit by bit.

Catherine Warrilow: So we took out all of the filler words and had a look what was left and that came out as kind of care, community, making a difference and a handful of other things. So we stripped it right back and ended up with one sentence, which was about ten or twelve words long. I was like, that actually means something. And that is something you can look at every day and say, "Does launching this new product or service may give something back to the community?". Well, actually, no, it doesn't, because it's going to take us 20 years to fulfil that element. So do we scale it back? Do we make it simpler? Do we make it shorter? What do we do? Do we make it more accessible?

Catherine Warrilow: I think if you can't look at least your vision on a daily basis and say the things on my to do list absolutely fit with that, then you need to challenge yourself on the tactics that you're implementing to reach that vision and the goals you've set for the business. So I think most people would hope, I would say quarterly in the team meeting.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's exactly what people hope. Once a year we revisit that.

Catherine Warrilow: I don't think you want to change it more than annually. You might tweak it if you have to keep throwing it out every year and redoing it. There's something wrong with your business model. But if you can look at it, mine's up on my wall. Mine's really simple. It's rebel plans for travel brands, which basically means a bit kind of rogue compared to your typical marketing strategy. And my why is because you don't want to be the same as everyone else and I don't want to do boring work. That's it. Simple as that. So if I look at my to do list today and say, "Is that boring or is that going to make a difference, and it's not, then I need to challenge myself on what I am delivering for that client or for my own business.".

Catherine Warrilow: Am I saying I haven't written a blog for ages, I should write one? If it's crap to fill a space, then I shouldn't be doing it. I need to challenge myself to put the effort in, to think about what I want to say on that topic, how my opinion is different, how I back that opinion up, what other people are saying, bring in other voices and your vision and mission should make you do things properly, they should make you do them to a much higher standard and they should raise the game of your business, your team and the industry, because that's ultimately where you need to be to succeed, isn't it? You need to be pushing for better.

Kelly Molson: I think we're all getting a very clear picture of what it would be like to work with you, Catherine, from this interview. Love it.

Catherine Warrilow: It's a great screening process, isn't it? Some people will go, oh, my God, that sounds horrendous. That sounds like an awful lot of work. No, thank you. Other people will say, "I think she could see where we're going wrong, where we can't see it because we're so entrenched in what we're doing.".

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I'm sitting here going, "She needs to come in and work on our brand. This is what we need.". Okay. How does the brand proposition translate into what the consumer or the visitor engages with? I guess. How do you get your brand proposition across to them in the right way?

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, I think it gets really overcomplicated in a lot of businesses, and that's usually because bits have been tacked on at different times to try different things and see how they work. It should translate to everything. It should translate to the hero strap line across the homepage of your website. It should translate to the bios on your social channels. If you still have business cards, it should translate there. It should translate to how you conduct yourself in front of people, at events, in meetings, in pitches with customers. And one of the things that often gets forgotten and is why it gets all confused from a consumer facing perspective, is it should translate internally as well. Behind the scenes, how your team meetings run, how your one to ones run, the culture and the atmosphere in the office. It should translate through everything.

Catherine Warrilow: Because if it doesn't, how do you expect your marketing team, your sales team, your customer service team to get that across to the customer if your staff don't feel it themselves? And that's probably the only thing that I miss about working in house, is creating that momentum and energy within a team. And it is absolutely astronomical. What a difference it makes to productivity, to engagement, to buy in, to smoothing out bumps when you go through difficult periods of change or reorganisation or someone leaves the business, or whatever it is. You can weather those kind of things so much more easily if you start with the people within your business and making that vision and mission exciting to them.

Catherine Warrilow: And that might be down to the fact that the quarterly team meeting is just so incredibly painful and dull that people just switch off so they don't absorb any of the information about where the business is going next, because it's delivered in such a static, boring way that you need totally transform that and it needs to be led by the teams or it needs to be designed as a quiz or something like just make it different, make it more fun. And I guarantee then it becomes very easy to translate that through to everything from the customer's perspective because it will come through in tone of voice and how you handle a difficult customer service query. It will come through in creating content on TikTok or whatever channels you use. It will just be ingrained in everything.

Kelly Molson: Because your team are owning that and they've got such an input into the kind of division and the mission and the brand proposition, they then can sell that on to the consumers. So they're your internal ambassadors. We talked about ambassadors earlier.

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: And obviously that's going to help with recruitment as well. If you've got a really strong kind of brand proposition, more people want to come and be involved in that too.

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah. And it brings confidence to everything. I mean, our job descriptions at Days Out attracted people who weren't even looking for a job because they saw the ad. They were like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't even think I wanted to move and now I do.". And I had to apply because they were written by real people, designed for real people who just want to be in jobs which they love and they feel invested in and appreciated and rewarded and recognised.

Catherine Warrilow: So it was less about, you must have five years of this, you must be able to do that and more about, do you want to come to work and actually feel like you want to be there and that you want to work really hard because you care about making a difference to that business because they are as invested as you are in the brand. And, yeah, recruitment is a difficult business and retention is a difficult business. So if you can bring together all of those things in such an incredible way across everything you do, then recruiting all of a sudden becomes a joy. And seeing people who want to work for you is incredible.

Catherine Warrilow: So, yeah, it affects everything and you can see I get really excited about that because I think we so often forget that it's our people that will drive the success and we just go over that shiny thing over there. But actually, if you don't tell anyone else in the business what that shiny thing is and why it matters, then how on earth are you going to move mountains to get to that point?

Kelly Molson: Totally agree with every single word that you're saying, Catherine. Totally agree with it. Right. We've talked about what it is, who's doing it well, tourism and attraction industry and why.

Catherine Warrilow: Gosh. So I mentioned my time at doubt with the kids, and it was a very different beast when I was there, because were really trying to make fundamental changes in how we monetise the site, whereas now they've come so far, and I think I have to call out their content strategy and their content team, because in an incredibly crowded market, where you are competing for the attention of parents, the most time poor people on the planet, they have totally understood what type of content resonates with people, and they've understood how to keep people engaged in a community. And that might be anything from behind the scenes, an attraction, quite literal content. But that whole kind of.

Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh, you won't believe what's round this corner at this tiny farm park and bringing to life the lesser known attractions that have huge amounts to offer customers through to stuff that's trending, whether that's pop culture or music, tv, film, just tapping into the mood of the nation. My definition of that is situational relevance. So how do you bring together a situation or trend that's important to people now with the relevance of your brand? And it goes back to what we're saying about tone of voice before. What's your perspective on that topic? Why would a customer engage with your brand about that topic if it's not literally trying to sell them a ticket to an attraction?

Catherine Warrilow: And I think what they've done with channels like TikTok, for example, is they've absolutely understood, A, what problem they solve for the customer, but B, what's important to them now and what they're talking about right this minute, because that will be different today to it is tomorrow. And they are quick and they are agile and they are reactive to trends and topics, and they've understood how to have that conversation with someone within their audience demographic. And that's not easy. That is a huge undertaking of time and effort and research, and it doesn't take two minutes to create a decent TikTok that's going to engage people. People think it's like an instantaneous throwaway channel, but it's not. And you've got to hook people in about a second and a. So I think they're doing great things.

Catherine Warrilow: When it comes to attractions, Cannon Hall Farm in Barnsley in Yorkshire, I think are epic. I think, again, they captured situational relevance by streaming things like lambing season on Facebook. Years and years ago, they started doing that and they were like, "Oh, we're on something.". People want to watch the lambs being born and how we care for them and how we bring new life into the world and how good that feels. And that led to them doing a whole series with Channel five. And I just think they had their vision and mission and products spot on. They had the foundations. They knew what they were delivering, who to for what gain. They were bringing people up close and personal with farming life in a way that just captured families. And I think they've sustained that, and I think that's quite difficult to do.

Catherine Warrilow: I think they've evolved with the times, and they've carried on improving their products, and they've carried on communicating that to people who want that type of experience. So I think that they're brilliant. And then the other one would be Marsh Farm in Essex. Their understanding of events and how to capture people through events is out of this world. And what they do is they look, I don't think they intentionally do it, but what they've managed to do is create a triangle between celebrity. So someone like Daisy Solomon and how she celebrates Halloween, for example, and an experience that they can deliver that captures that to people in a way they can afford.

Catherine Warrilow: So their pumpkin patches and photo moments around Halloween are mind blowing, because what they've done, they've looked at what people want to achieve at the celebrity level, but potentially can't cover their front doorstep in a million pumpkins and have ghosts coming out of every part of the.

Kelly Molson: Catherine, honestly.

Catherine Warrilow: But they can go and have that experience at Marsh Farm with their kids, take photos of their kids in a wheelbarrow surrounded by pumpkins, and feel like they've had a slice of that lifestyle. And they up their game with every single event they do. And it's remarkable. And the effort that goes into delivering that wrapped up with incredible customer service is second to none. And I think a lot of attractions can learn from how they deliver that experience.

Kelly Molson: I totally agree. Marsh Farm is James Sinclair, isn't it? That's him, yes.

Catherine Warrilow: And Aaron Oathman. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: James actually came on the podcast.He was a really early guest on the first season of the podcast when me and my old co founder used to do it together. Actually, I think my co founder interviewed James on his own, actually. I don't think I was on that one. But we had seen James, he'd been on our radar for a long time. And he is a smart cookie. He really is a smart. I think he's probably a bit marmite for people, in all honesty. But that's a good thing, right? That's filthy. But I absolutely love his content. I love it. I can sit and watch it all day long and he's got so much to talk about and there's so much value that he delivers as well. So from a personal brand perspective, I think he's kind of nailing that as well.

Catherine Warrilow: Oh, 100%. And that's something we haven't even touched on, is personal brand. That's a conversation for another day. But it fits in neatly with getting your people invested in the business vision, because they are your brand ambassadors. They are the people going out to events and selling the dream. And some people don't see the value of that, but the way they conduct themselves, especially if you're in B2B and you're in trade events and you're negotiating relationships with suppliers or trying to get people to come to your stand and talk to you about a product or service, they're not going to do that unless your personal brand has that magnetism. And you're absolutely right, James has that magnetism.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Which, again, is going to help with his recruitment and then building those brands and then vision. So it's all part and parcel of the same thing. Exactly. I love it. Great examples as well. Thank you for sharing those. What are your top tips that you'd like to share with our listeners today?

Catherine Warrilow: So, the first one I won't labour over, because it's getting your people aligned with your vision, and we've talked about that a lot. It all starts there. If you can't get people to adore the plans of the business, then it's going to be hard work to get to that point. I think the second one is something we touched on early on. It's about authenticity. Whether you're customer facing and you're an attraction or an experience, whether you're an OTA, whether you're a res tech company. Authenticity, I think, is everything. If you can't do something, don't say you can. If you can't fix something, don't say you can. Be honest. Just be honest about everything, with your customers, with your teams, with your partners, and do your absolute best to find the right solution.

Catherine Warrilow: So if you let a customer down, don't gloss over and say, "Oh, well, we couldn't have controlled that.". Say, "We're gutted that this has happened, we can't fix it, but this is what we're going to do to avoid it happening again. This is the problem we've uncovered.". Just bring it all to the surface. I don't understand why brands don't let people see in. Because we know as customers that the brands we resonate with and have an affinity with are the ones we trust. It's as simple as that. So why not let people into that world a bit more? And the way we use social these days allows us to do that, allows us to have a window into our world. So use that to your advantage. Show you're listening.

Catherine Warrilow: Show that you take on board feedback, whether that's internally, externally or otherwise, and just be the best, genuine version of yourself and your business that you can be. And then the third thing I would say is, try new stuff now. So if you're not on TikTok and you're like, "We need to be on TikTok, but we don't understand it, we don't get it, we don't have the resource.". Don't put it off. You will never have enough resource for everything you want to do. You will never be a master at all things. But try them now. Don't have them on that forever to do list. Whether that's approaching a new partner or researching a new sector within tours, experiences and attractions, do it now.

Catherine Warrilow: And if you're listening to this or watching this and you've had one of those things on your list, please do something about it this week and come back and tell us both what you've done, because I think you just need that push in the right direction. People wait for the perfect moment to try something new or do something new or launch something new. There is never a perfect moment. You will miss the boat. And then you have that constant frustration of, "Oh, those guys are doing it brilliantly. Why didn't we just dot.". Because if you had have done, you probably would be creating great content on that channel now. You probably would be in a partnership with that new wine tour. Just don't wait. Trends come and go. Just get on with it. Stop waiting.

Kelly Molson: I feel like you've also just made us about 400 people's accountability partners there as well. So thanks for that.

Catherine Warrilow: Okay, I'm going to rescind that last bit. Tell me what you've done this week.

Kelly Molson: Take it, send and email us. All Catherine's details will be in the show notes. It's fine. You can email us both. Let us know what you've taken off your list and what you've gone ahead with. We want to know. I'm joking. All 400 of you and more. It's great tips. Thank you for sharing today. I've really thoroughly enjoyed this. Where can we get more from you? You're actually going to be talking soon. At quite a large event, aren't you?

Catherine Warrilow: Yeah. So you can see me in person at Arival first weekend of March. So I'll be talking about everything we've talked about today, actually taking your mission and vision and values right through to monetisation and figuring out where those gaps are in the middle. So that'd be a really practical, hands on workshop. I'm a real kind of sharpie marker and paper type person, so you will actually get a physical roadmap to take away and fill in yourself, which I think is going to be really fun. I'm a massive oversharer, like I said, so you can find me on LinkedIn a lot, on TikTok a lot. I can't profess to be a TikTok expert by any stretch, but I am persevering because I think it's a brilliant channel to share quick pieces of advice and tips and hacks.

Catherine Warrilow: So little things that you can do right now that will improve the brand strategy within your business. So, yeah, you can find me quite easily, I'm afraid.

Kelly Molson: We will put all of Catherine's details in the show notes as well, so you just can refer back to there and you'll be able to find her. One thing I would say about Catherine's website, you have to go and cheque it out, because there's a little line on Catherine's website that I absolutely love. It says, "You need help, we're ready to fix your shit.". And I was like, "Yeah, she absolutely is. This woman is going to fix your shit.". Okay. I always end the episodes with a book that our guests love. So, what have you brought to recommend to our listeners today?

Catherine Warrilow: So, it's ironic, actually, because my two book recommendations, the first one's called The Power of Doing Less, by an author called Fergus O'Connell. And this is about getting rid of all the distractions and noise. And it's a really simple, short book that you'll want to keep on your desk with post it notes in pages, because it's just a good reminder of things like, "Am I the best person to do this? Is there someone else in the business that is better at this and should be doing this? Do I need to do it now? Is it important right now? Or am I just doing it because it's the top of the list? Should I be doing it in the way I think I should be doing it? Should I be doing part of it and not all of it?".

Catherine Warrilow: And it's just a great sanity cheque deck for not being a busy fool. And I love that. And it just keeps you sharp in terms of prioritising because nothing's ever urgent. It's either important or it's not. And then the second one, again, a bit ironic, based on my kind of love of bringing lots and lots of different things together, is called The One Thing by Gary Keller. Actually, it's not ironic really, because really, that's about the vision. Like, what is the one thing we are trying to do here and does everything else we're doing align to that one purpose? That is just such a brilliant book and it really helps you get focused and clarity on what you're doing and why. So, yeah, those are my two recommendations.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant books, and they haven't come up previously as well. I love this. I always like it when a guest brings a book. I'm like, "Oh, that's gone on to my list as well.". Listeners, if you want to win a copy of Catherine's books, so as ever, go over to our twitter account and retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Catherine's books and you'll be in with the chance of winning them. We also have a I'll put it in the show notes, but we have a brilliant blog on our website, on the Rubber Cheese website that lists all of these books that our guests come on and share. So it's become kind of a virtual library for people to go and refer to back to over the years. So thank you for adding to our library today.

Kelly Molson: Thank you for coming on and sharing. It's been a great chat. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I love talking about brand. It is a little bit of my background as well, so I completely understand and embrace everything that you've talked about today. Good luck at Arival. I hope that goes brilliantly and I look forward to all of those emails that we're about to receive about people taking things off their list, doing them.

Catherine Warrilow: And I'll see you in a toilet somewhere soon, hopefully.

Kelly Molson: Probably. Like I said, all the best people meet in toilets.

Catherine Warrilow: Thanks, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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enFebruary 21, 2024

The Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses, with Emily Yates

Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-rose-yates/

https://mimagroup.com/

https://mimagroup.com/the-redesign-podcast

Download: VisitEngland Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses

Emily Yates is a wheelchair user with cerebral palsy living in Glasgow, Scotland. She loves to write, travel and is a real pink hair enthusiast. Emily has over a decade of experience as an accessibility consultant. Now the Head of Accessibility and Inclusive Design at Mima, Emily has worked with large transport, culture and heritage and global events organisations such as Heathrow Airport, COP28, the Science Museum Group and the Rio 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games to further their physical, social and digital accessibility measures.

She has also worked with the Council of Europe, international travel networks, and sat on equality boards advising various sporting, transport and travel organisations on their access and inclusion agendas.
Emily frequently presents and writes on disability issues, having fronted several documentaries for BBC Three and written for the Guardian, the Independent and Telegraph Travel. She also authored the Lonely Planet Guide to Accessible Rio de Janeiro.

Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

In today’s podcast I speak with Emily Yates, Head of Accessibility and Inclusive Design, at Mima.

Mima worked alongside Visit Britain to co create the Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses, which aims to act as the resource for travel, tourism and hospitality organisations.

Emily and I discuss how it was created, why it is such a vital resource, and how it will evolve over time.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Hi, Emily. It's lovely to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for coming on and joining me and at very short notice, too. Appreciate it.

Emily Yates: Not at all. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.

Kelly Molson: Well, we're going to have a good chat today. I'm looking forward to this. Right, I am going to start my icebreakers with this question for you. Have you ever been told off by a security guard for touching anything in a museum that you should not have been touching?

Emily Yates: What a great question. I don't think I have, but something that immediately comes to mind. It was a very embarrassing moment that I had at the Museum of the Future in Dubai a few months ago, where I touched something that I shouldn't have done. And what it was there was an interactive kind of tabletop interactive going on, and there were groups of people from all over the world who were visiting this museum and there was this one couple who were trying to sort their wristband to make this interactive work and I just figured that they couldn't do it. So I put my wristband on to help them and I changed all the information to me and they were so annoyed to me, in a massive grump.

Emily Yates: Yeah, they just thought that I'd, like, nicked all of their information and their opportunity to do this activity and I was just trying to be helpful.

Kelly Molson: That's the actual digital version of skipping the queue, basically. You wristbanded them out of the way.

Emily Yates: I totally did. And the worst thing was that were on this group tour, so I had to stay with them for the rest of the tour.

Kelly Molson: They were with you. That’s a little bit awkward, those group tours, aren't they? Because you never know if you're going to like anyone or if ones are going to get on your nerves. So you just made it even more awkward than it needed to be.

Emily Yates: There you go.

Kelly Molson: Right. I love it. Okay, there's a three parter to this question, but it's a good one. And actually, thank you, whoever sent this one in, because I genuinely can't remember who sent me this one, but I really like. It's the first time that I'm using it, too. Okay. So they say the formula for visitor attractions is one, a great view, two, a great brew, and three, a great loo. So I want to know where you've encountered your best three of these. They can be different. So best view?

Emily Yates: Best view, I would have to say. Can it be international? I would have to say Sugarloff Mountain, Rio de Janeiro.

Kelly Molson: Wow.

Emily Yates: Absolutely incredible view. Yeah. Like nothing else. Best brew. Oh, I'm trying to think of somewhere that has a great cafe, the V&A Museum in Dundee has a brilliant cafe that also has a great view, I have to say. That would be my best brew.

Kelly Molson: We like that one. And then three best loo.

Emily Yates: Best loo. It would have to be somewhere that has a changing places toilet. And of course, I need to say that being an access consultant, I'm trying to think where does. But I know for certain that a client I'm working with, the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford, has one about to be kind of refurbished and all sorted. So I would say there.

Kelly Molson: Excellent. Good choices as well. I love that you've got a Dundee one in there that was like two out of the three. I mean, there you go. There's a challenge for them. If they can up their game, they can get that third one from you as well.

Emily Yates: Yeah, absolutely.

Kelly Molson: Nice. All right, what's your unpopular opinion?

Emily Yates: Oh, my unpopular opinion? Both heels and handbags are overrated. As a wheelchair user, I have never, ever worn a pair of high heels in my life. I'm 32 years old, so I think that's quite an accomplishment. And also pushing all the time. Unless it's a cross body one, I can never hold a handbag, so, yeah, I'm a Converse and rook sack girl all the way.

Kelly Molson: Right. Because, yeah, it would get in the way, wouldn't it? You need to kind of have it across and then, I guess, tucked in a little bit and then what's the point of having something fancy if you're going to just.

Emily Yates: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: I mean, I'm kind of with you. I'm not a wheelchair user. However, my feet were not designed for high heels at all. I'm a flat scale all the way.

Emily Yates: Maybe not. Unpopular opinion. Maybe there's just two camps, two very distinct camps, isn't there?

Kelly Molson: I think probably two camps, but I don't think this is an unpopular opinion. Even in a camp of people that could actively wear those heels and might want to. I still think that there’s a.

Emily Yates: There's a secret loo. Wish we didn't have to. Maybe I'm in a lovely position, that I've got a lovely excuse.

Kelly Molson: Never had to think about this. Never had to squeeze your tiny feet into those awkwardly pointy, evil contraptions. Right, let's see. Well, let's see what everyone on Twitter has got to share with us on that. Thank you, Emily. I want to find out a little bit about. Well, I want to find out a little bit about your role and your background and then tell us a little bit about Mima as well.

Emily Yates: Yes, sure. So, I am a wheelchair user. I was born with cerebral palsy. I'm, as you can probably tell from my accident, from a little town called Skipton in North Yorkshire. And I'm also a twin, and my twin lives in Spain now, so she's got the sunshiny life. There's definitely a tan difference between the two of us now, for sure. And I've always worked in the world of accessibility and inclusive design, from leaving a university, really. And it's led me to amazing opportunities to be able to travel a lot, to be able to see, I guess, the importance of my capabilities as a disabled person, rather than just my limitations as a disabled person. And I've brought that into my professional work as well as my personal life as well. So I now work for an amazing human centred design agency called Mima.

Emily Yates: It stands for Micro and Macro, so details and then zooming out into the big picture, looking at that end to end journey. And I head up the accessibility and inclusive design team there. So whether you're talking about airports or train stations or of course, museums and galleries or even global events and sporting events, we look at auditing, facilitating lived experience, user groups, standards, policies, disability awareness training, all of that good stuff, and bring our design expertise into wider projects with us as well. And it's brilliant.

Kelly Molson: That's how we got chatting, isn't it? Because you've worked with a really broad. We work with a hugely broad range of clients, as you've just said. But I think David and I started talking somebody I can't remember, it was a good friend of mine, it was Jo Geraghty. She introduced us because we had visitor attractions and kind of heritage and culture organisations in common. So we had a brilliant chat about this and then we had a chat and then this project happened that you've all been involved in, which is amazing. So this is what we're going to talk about today. Now, you'll probably agree with this, but I think when it comes to accessibility and inclusivity, I think it's fair to say that kind of travel tourism organisations, they want to do the right thing.

Kelly Molson: There's a real desire to be able to do the right thing, but they often don't really know what that is and where to go and find the support to be able to do those things, like where do they start looking to kind of understand the checklist of things that they need to go through to make sure that their venue is accessible. The Visit Britain Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses aims to change that.

Kelly Molson: I saw Ross Calladine, who's the Accessibility and Inclusion Lead at VisitEngland, speak about this a while ago, before it had launched. He was speaking at a Visit Hearts networking event that I went to. It is an incredible resource for the sector. Like, absolutely incredible. I've had a really deep dive into it and it is so useful and so full of incredible information. But you and Mima have been involved in putting this together with them? This has been a joint project.

Emily Yates: Yes, absolutely. So we were the toolkit authors and I feel very honoured to have worked with Ross and Hannah at VisitEngland for the last year know. They're just a wonderful client and we've got on really well. And Ross, as you will probably know from hearing him speak, absolutely has his heart in the right place when it comes to accessibility and inclusive design. But I think really importantly as well, has his finger on the pulse of the business benefit of this, which of course is really important. And you very rightly said there that a lot of especially small to medium sized businesses want to do the right thing, but often don't know where to start. And quite a lot of the time that's to do with budget, it's to do with time, it's to do with resourcing constraints, all of that stuff.

Emily Yates: And what we really wanted this toolkit to do was to provide some holistic tips and advice for those businesses that actually says, “We understand the limitations that exist.” We understand that it's not possible to just click your fingers and magic up a changing places, for example, that were talking about earlier. But it is possible to think about your staff training, your recruitment, your policies and your processes. Things like making sure that your access routes are clear of seating and clutter. Simple things that make a huge difference. But of course, I said seating clear of access routes, but of course there needs to be seating somewhere as well. That's really important. But these quick wins that you can make, that will make a huge difference to people. It's not always about just installing a really expensive piece of equipment.

Emily Yates: It's understanding those holistic changes that you can make that will make a huge difference. And the toolkit covers so many different sections. It provides some information about the purple pound. So the spending power of disabled people in their households, which is worth, I think, 274,000,000,000 pounds per year to UK businesses alone. So that's what you're missing out on if you're not physically or digitally accessible. And then the toolkit also covers the different impairments and medical conditions that you might need to know about how to best provide that inclusive welcome that can often not cost anything at all. It's just about changing your mindset.

Emily Yates: And then we talk about the importance of inclusive marketing, changes in the built environment, employing more inclusively, and then the next steps to kind of continue the all encompassing journey that can never really be finished, but will hopefully provide people with stand them in good stead for a future that's a bit more accessible.

Kelly Molson: I guess that goes for the toolkit as well. This is going to be something that is never finished too, because it's always going to change and evolve depending on what the needs and requirements are. How was it created in the first place? What was the process that you had to go through? Because this is, know what you've just described. I mean, the resource is phenomenal, it's vast, the things that you can understand and go through with this documentation. So that in itself will have been a mammoth task to have pulled together. How did you work with VisitBritain to do that?

Emily Yates: So the first thing that was quite important was thinking about what each of the resources were going to look like. So what I've just gone through there is the more holistic toolkit, the main piece, if you like. But in addition to that, we've also got documents that have 20 top tips for businesses. We've got action checklists where people can almost say, “Right, I'm going to make sure I've provided something in particular for an assistance dog, for example”, and put a timeline of when they're going to do that, give ownership to a certain member of staff, of appeasing that checklist, and then carry on that way. So there's also some action checklists and there's also some technical guidance as an appendix as well.

Emily Yates: So the first thing was really thinking about what information do we want to provide and how are we going to segregate that information, so it isn't awfully overwhelming and is actually actionable. And then the second thing was making sure, and probably the most important thing was making sure that we'd co-produced this information and consulted with the correct people. So we've consulted with over 30 disability charities and disabled people's organisations, also trade associations as well as independent reviewers. So everybody from the Business Disability Forum who gave us some great advice in terms of inclusive employment, to self catering trade associations, to museum trade associations, theme parks and things like that, there's so many people that got involved with this and gave us some advice.

Emily Yates: And also we wanted to make sure that the information wasn't just actionable, but it was really relevant as well. So we've also created lots of different case studies within the toolkit. So whether that's more independent small farms who've done something amazing in terms of their volunteering and how that can be more inclusive to a local pier, for example, that's made something that, let's face it, in the built environment, isn't all that accessible sometimes. They've made changes to help that out.

Emily Yates: We've added those case studies. So as you're reading through the information and learning lots, you're hopefully able to also read something that's quite relevant, that almost sparks that interest and that aspiration and gives you an opportunity to think, “Okay, I can do that. This might be who I might get in touch with and this might be the action I take.”

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I love that. The case studies make it so relatable to different scales of organisation. And I think what I found was it was quite inspiring, actually, that, okay, it's a pier. There's always going to be some challenges with accessibility. However, we have gone to these efforts to do these things. So you might have a checklist of 30 things you might be able to cover off, 20 of them, ten of them you're never going to be able to do. But to be able to read and go, “There's still so much that I can do. Even though I don't have something that's all 30, I can still do these things and make it significantly better for a much wider range of people that will be able to come and use these facilities now.”

Emily Yates: Absolutely, 100%. And we wanted to make sure that people really got that feeling and they were encouraged by the information rather than overwhelmed by it. And I think one thing that's also really important is that, let's be honest, when it comes to accessibility, we all think about wheelchair users and we all think about step free access, which is great for me as a wheelchair user. But actually it's not always about providing step free access or installing that really expensive lift. How can you think about the colour palettes that you're using to make sure that there's enough tonal contrast for somebody who's visually impaired, but it also provides an appropriate sensory environment for somebody who's neurodivergent? These are things that are so often forgotten or put down the priority list.

Emily Yates: And these are the things that we wanted to say, "Okay, you can do these in a way that doesn't break the bank, that doesn't take all the time, but makes all the difference to a certain group of people."

Kelly Molson: Do you think that they are harder to associate with because you can't see them? I mean, with the wheelchair it's a very obvious. You can see that person has a disability, you can see that they will need something very specific from you to be able to use your platform. But with some of these other things, you just can't see that trigger. So you don't think to think about it?

Emily Yates: Absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the really pivotal points that we have in the inclusive design industry now is thinking about things that are less visible. So somebody who has dementia, for example, that might find really dark flooring looking like a black hole and might really struggle to go into that museum environment that's particularly dark. Thinking about that is just as important as how wide your doorways are. But as you've very rightly said, are so often not thought about or not correctly understood is probably the more correct way of saying it.

Kelly Molson: You mentioned earlier about some monetary value for organisations to do this, but why is this such a vital resource from someone like you who has lived experience of this as well? Why is this so vital?

Emily Yates: I think it's really vital because it's specific. First of all, so we've created something specific to people within that tourism travel attractions industry. In fact, we've focused specifically on accommodations, attractions, food and beverage and events. There are four main areas that we focused on. So what I really like about it is you read through as somebody who works in one of those businesses and everything is relevant to what you do, and I think that's really important. So often you look at accessibility resources and they've tried to cater to a huge audience and actually made a bit less relevance by doing so. I think that makes it really vital and a really innovative resource actually. By doing so, I think another thing is it allows you to focus on that end to end journey in its entirety.

Emily Yates: So if you feel like you're doing really well in the accessibility that you offer your customers, for example. But you want to focus now more internally on, "Okay, what's my culture look like? How inclusive can I be as an employer? What about my marketing? What about my website? I focused on the built environment, but what about what the information I'm putting out there?" All of that information is in there as well. So regardless of where you are on that accessibility journey, I'd like to think that there's something for you within that toolkit.

Kelly Molson: There absolutely is as well. You definitely need to go and download it. So we're going to put a link directly to it in the show notes for the show as well. So don't worry about rent searching for it, just go to the show notes. You will find it very easily. How is it going to evolve? Because we said this is not a static thing. It's out there now. Needs requirements are going to change, policies are going to change. What does the roadmap for it look like for the next kind of couple of years, five years down the line?

Emily Yates: So I'm doing quite a lot of work with Ross at the moment to think about how we're making sure that people are aware of it and they know exactly how to use it as a tool. Because, of course, with anything like this, it's all well and good writing it, but really it's only as successful as its uses. So we've gone already to the AA and the VisitEngland assessors who go into different hotels and restaurants and review these, and we've made sure that they're aware of the toolkit. We've given them a bit of a presentation and a few exercises on how to use it. We're going to do similar with visitor attractions as well. And then Mima. We've got a bit of a contract with VisitEngland for the next couple of years that focuses on providing updates to this toolkit.

Emily Yates: So we will be going out and training different people, but also we really want people to write into us and give us feedback and tell us where they think certain improvements could be made or if they've got a great case study of something that's only happened a couple of months ago. All these things, we want to hear about them so we can make sure that it continues to be an updated, best in class resource.

Kelly Molson: Oh, that's good. I love that little shout out. Right, if anyone's listening and something good has happened, you've got something to shout about. You know how to contact Emily. We'll put a link to Emily's LinkedIn profile on here so you can give her a shout out and about. And what do you hope that it's going to achieve? What do you hope that this will bring?

Emily Yates: Oh, that's a great question. I think the number one thing I hope, and this is probably quite a personal, selfish plea, is that I hope it encourages businesses to be honest about where they are in their journey. By that, I mean it is no good somebody calling you up and saying, "Hi there. Do you provide step free access and accessible parking?" And you going, "Oh, yes, we do. That's absolutely fine." And somebody like me getting there, and there's five steps up to the front door. There's nothing heroic about not being honest about where you are in your journey. It just complicates matters.

Emily Yates: So what I would really love businesses to have the confidence to do is have a statement on their website that details exactly where they are on that journey, is really honest about the things that they've done well, the things that they're still improving, and therefore gives disabled people, older people with access requirements in general, that autonomy to be able to make the decision for themselves, whether this place is suitable for their needs or not. And I think if we can master that and if businesses can do that would be an incredible thing for the industry in general.

Emily Yates: And it puts, as I say, that autonomy back on disabled people, back on the audience to say, "Right, this is great, I'm going to go here, I'm going to tell all my friends about it, and this could be a great case study for this business to learn a little bit more from, et cetera."

Kelly Molson: That is such an important message, isn't it? The message of honesty? Because that seems like a really simple thing to do. Okay, look, none of us are perfect. None of us are perfect. We all have a long way to go to make things as accessible as they need to be. However, this is where we're at. We've got this. We're back to our checklist again, aren't we? This is our 30 step checklist. We've got ten of those knocked off already. And these are the things that we're doing. This is what we are hoping to achieve, and this is the time frame we're looking to achieve them. And I've just been through this process with the fire safety regulations that were brought out last October. So making sure that I've got. Yep, okay. I've got 90% of those. There's 10% that need to be looked at.

Kelly Molson: This is what we're going to do. And this is when we're going to do it by. It's exactly the same message, isn't it?

Emily Yates: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: Do you not see that from many kind of tourism and attraction organisations then? Do you find that is quite a challenge for them, to be quite honest about where they're at?

Emily Yates: I still see being very honest with you, I still see quite a lot of fear surrounding disability and accessibility and this real desire to do the right thing. All of this is coming from a good place. There's a real desire to do the right thing, but as you said right at the very beginning, no idea of where to start. And I think sometimes it's very easy to over promise and under deliver, and that is the worst thing that you can do. Equally what I want to say to caveat all of this is if you offer something that's amazing, please shout about it, please tell people about it. Because equally outside of the coin, I see actually museums in particular that for all of these amazing things, be as a sell tours, touch tours, tack tile objects, nobody has clue that they even exist. So I’m asking really for both things.

Kelly Molson: Balance.

Emily Yates: Absolutely. Be honest about what you don't have. Celebrate what you do.

Kelly Molson: Another great message, Emily. Okay, what are your top tips? Like I said, this is lived experience for you. What are your top tips around disability awareness? What would you shout out and say these are the things that you need to be looking at.

Emily Yates: Okay, first thing, it's quite a philosophical point, but it's quite an important one. I think we need to change our mindset when it comes to accessibility and inclusive designs, especially in the disability space, because each and every one of us at some point in our lives will have experience of disability. Hopefully it's just through old age, but it may be through injury, through something else. And it's important to think about not disabled people and nondisabled people, but disabled people and not yet disabled people. And I think if we changed our mindset around that, suddenly there'd be a lot more movement when it comes to accessibility and inclusive design. So I think that would be my one top tip, my one plea, if you like. I think the second one is to think bigger than wheelchair users. Start thinking about how to design for neurodiversity.

Emily Yates: Start reading documents such as the new PaAS 6463, design for the mind. If you are, for example, a contractor or a designer working in these kind of spaces, that's really important too. And I think wherever possible, bring lived experience into your work. If you are working in a gallery and you've got this amazing new exhibition coming out in the next couple of years. Think about how you can represent deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people within that exhibition. Can you have a space where you have an access hub that has BSL, tactile maps, portable stools that people can take round with them? And even more so, can you have part of the exhibition where some of your interpretations, some of your objects are to do with deaf, disabled, neurodivergent creators? That would be incredible too.

Kelly Molson: So making sure it's woven through every part of that experience and not seen as an add on at the end.

Emily Yates: Absolutely that. Absolutely that.

Kelly Molson: Great tips. Thank you. Let's talk quickly about the podcast. So at Mima there's a podcast called Re:Design. Actually episode five does feature Ross. Again, he's the Accessibility and Inclusion Lead at VisitEngland, and he comes on and talks about how do you create a seamless customer experience. So again, this comes back to a lot of the points that we've covered today. I mean, great topic. Congratulations on starting the podcast. In the first place there, what are the hopes and aspirations for Mima? What are they looking to achieve by putting this podcast out there?

Emily Yates: I think what we're hoping for is that multidisciplinary design, human centred design, inclusive design, really gets its place on the map a little bit more because it's something that, especially inclusive design, it's spoken about a know you will read articles a lot, I'm sure, Kelly, that mention it and the importance of it. But there's a difference between mentioning it and knowing what to do with it and actually speaking to people that have done it. And I think that's what we're trying to do, really pull out some pearls of wisdom from different individuals that have gone through different scenarios, whether they've travelled a lot for their work, whether they've focused on inclusive internal culture change as one of our episodes focuses on, whether they focus specifically on the importance of inclusion within aviation, whether they're looking at a seamless visitor experience.

Emily Yates: We want to hear from people that have experienced that and been through it, and are able to then give a bit of advice to people that want to learn more about a subject that everybody should at least have a bit of a basic understanding of.

Kelly Molson: Amazing. Right. We will link to that podcast as well. So that is definitely one for you to go over and subscribe to. Emily, it's been so good to have you on today, and I know that we've had to keep this one short because everyone's got appointments that they need to get to. But this is such a key topic.

Kelly Molson: My aspiration is that everybody that listens to this episode goes and downloads that accessibility toolkit and shares it with their network as well. Please. So that's a personal plea from me to you listeners. Go and download it and please give it a little share because it needs to get out to as many different people as possible, as many organisations that it is relevant for as possible. What about a book that you love, that you'd like to share with us today? Emily, I'm intrigued if you've gone on topic or not.

Emily Yates: I think I have gone on topic about this. Sorry if I've been a bit one dimensional.

Kelly Molson: Not at all.

Emily Yates: My book of choice is one that I read recently and one, funnily enough, that I'm running a bit of an internal workshop on at Mima in a couple of weeks. We've started a bit of an inclusive book club and it's called the View From Down Here by Lucy Webster. Lucy is an amazing journalist. She's disabled. She used to work for the BBC before going freelance, and she writes this incredible memoir about what it's like growing up disabled, but really importantly as a disabled woman.

Emily Yates: And she talks about so many different scenarios from trying to get into a nightclub on a Saturday night when the difficulty of doing so in terms of the gaze that you so often experience as a woman, but as a disabled woman as well, her thoughts on motherhood and how complex and nuanced that is as somebody who's disabled, friendships, professional lives, all of these different things. And I think it's just such an incredibly powerful, confident, but also very vulnerable account of the realism of what it's really like. And the thing that it made me realise, or the thing that it made me remember, should I say, is that we're not going to solve accessibility by just making sure that all of our train stations are step free. It's much more holistic and nuanced and complex than that.

Emily Yates: And it's about human nature and human design and all those holistic things that we so rarely think about. And I would just urge everybody to read it. It's angry, it's sad, it's beautiful. It's just a wonderful book.

Kelly Molson: Wow. What a book. I feel quite moved by just hearing your account of it, let alone reading it. Right, that's going top of the list. Listeners, if you would like to win a copy of that book, which, I mean, let's face it sounds like everybody needs to read that anyway, so do throw your hat into the ring for this one. If you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words I want Emily's book, then you will be in a chance to win it. But aside from that, go and buy it and absolutely head over to the show notes download the VisitBritain Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses. You will not be disappointed, I can assure you of that. Emily, it's been brilliant to have you on today. Thank you. I'm sorry it's short and sweet.

Kelly Molson: I'm sorry that you've got to dash off to an appointment and you're leaving me, but it's been so amazing to chat. I would love for you to come on and talk about some of the case studies, maybe with some of your clients at some point, because I think that would be a really interesting discussion to talk through some of the processes and the steps that they went through and just showcase that this is for everybody. This really is for everybody.

Emily Yates: I would absolutely love that. Thank you. We're working with the National Railway Museum at the moment on their Vision 2025 master plan. So maybe when that's starting to wrap up next year, maybe that would be an amazing opportunity to talk about that.

Kelly Molson: I think that would be brilliant. I'd love that. All right. Thank you ever so much.

Emily Yates: Emily thank you, Kelly, thank you so much.

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enFebruary 07, 2024

Improving inclusivity at Kew Gardens, with Julia Willison

Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.kew.org/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-willison-22347a10/

Julia Willison is Head of Learning and Participation for the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. She is passionate about engaging people – young and old and from all walks of life - in learning about the importance of plants and fungi and the need for sustainable development. Julia is responsible for schools, communities and access, families and early years, outreach, youth and volunteers at Kew Gardens. She previously worked with botanic gardens internationally to advocate for and establish education programmes for the benefit of local communities and the environment.

Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

On today’s episode I speak with Julia Willison, Head of Learning and Participation at Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.

We discuss Kew’s inspiring manifesto - their 10 year strategy to end extinction crisis and protect nature. Julia shares with us the 5 key priorities, and we focus on Kew’s desire to improve inclusivity and what initiatives have been formed to support the organisation in doing this.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Julia, it's really lovely to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me.

Julia Willison: My pleasure, Kelly. Thank you for inviting me.

Kelly Molson: So we're recording this right at the beginning of January. It's the 9 January that we're recording it. So icebreakers have got a new year's resolution theme because I thought we should talk about this. I want to know, do you set them? If so, what have you set yourself for this year?

Julia Willison: I do tend to set them in my own mind. I don't often share them, but I do set them. And this year I've set the resolution. I want to start learning to play the piano and I've actually had my first lesson. I'm really pleased with that.

Kelly Molson: I love this. So we just had a little chat about this off air, because that was one of the other icebreaker questions I was going to ask you is, what's the one thing that you've always wanted to learn? And then we had this conversation and you're doing it already, and I was like, "Oh, this is great." So you've had your first lesson and how did it go?

Julia Willison: Well, I found myself apologising to the teacher profusely because of my lack of ability to play the piano, but it went really well and he was absolutely delightful, very supportive, and I learned quite a lot in the first lesson, so I'm looking forward to the second lesson now. I've got a lot start playing and practising every day, which I'm enjoying doing.

Kelly Molson: That's the thing about learning something new is that you've got to make it a habit, haven't you? So you need to kind of. This is the thing that I did about the gym, is that I had to diarize it, so I had to make sure that it was like in red in my diary, immovable. At the same time, on those days, that I could go so that you could do it. Are you going to do that with your lessons and your training?

Julia Willison: Well, the lessons obviously will have to be in my calendar, but I have almost crossed the threshold where I made a decision to play the piano. I've got a long term goal that in maybe ten years time, I'll be able to play in a group or something like this. So I'm really committed to wanting to learn. So we'll see. You have to revisit this space. Maybe in five years time. See if I'm still doing it.

Kelly Molson: Right. I'm popping you on the list for five years to make sure that I check in with you, that you've achieved your goals. Okay. What is the worst thing that you've ever eaten or drunk?

Julia Willison: Well, eaten for me is mussels, because I'm allergic to them.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.

Julia Willison: I only learned that through, obviously, eating mussels and even just a small piece just made me incredibly sick. Drinking advocaat. How do you say it. Advocaat?

Kelly Molson: Is that what goes into snowballs?

Julia Willison: Yes. I can't think of anything worse actually.

Kelly Molson: I love snowballs. I had one over Christmas.

Julia Willison: You can have mine.

Kelly Molson: I'll have your mussels. And your advocaat. What a mixture. And probably not at the same time either.

Julia Willison: No.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. My friends did a Christmas party and we had a snowball and it was, "This is so retro." I can remember my grandparents drinking these when I was a child. I remember if you ever come to my house for a Christmas party that you are not to have snowballs.

Julia Willison: I'll bring my own, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Okay. Right. What's your unpopular opinion, Julia?

Julia Willison: What I do feel, I suppose, strongly about is that, and I arrived at this opinion after talking to my children, after I had done this. And it says, I don't think that people should post pictures of their children and friends on social media without their consent.

Kelly Molson: Yes. Yeah. This is an interesting one, isn't? Oh, ok. And actually, at what point do you ask their consent? Because I post pictures of my daughter. She might not be comfortable with me, she might not be happy with me, her face being over my Twitter account or my Instagram account. So, yeah, I guess at some point we'll have that conversation. If she says no, that's it. No more pictures go up.

Julia Willison: Oh, sad. And the thing is, you can't take down the ones that you've already put up, can you?

Kelly Molson: No. Well, I guess you can go back and delete them from an Instagram account or delete them from your Twitter account. So you could go back and delete, but then they're out there, so that doesn't mean that they're not elsewhere in the ether.

Julia Willison: Interesting.

Kelly Molson: It is interesting, yeah. But I think you're right, I think. Absolutely, for other people. I've definitely had this conversation with a friend of mine about. We've been out together with our children and we've both taken pictures and she's actually asked my permission if she can post the pictures on her social media, but her platforms are quite. Her Instagram is a private Instagram account, for example, so she's happy to post pictures of her daughter on that, but she's not happy for other people to post those pictures if they're not private account. It is a huge debate, isn't it? Well, it'll be interesting to see what people think. How do you feel about this?

Kelly Molson: People on Twitter, which is where we do a lot of our talking about this podcast, how do you feel about posting pictures of your children or your friends and your family on social media without having their consent? Let us know. Could start a little Twitter debate there.

Julia Willison: I'd be interested to read it.

Kelly Molson: Right, Julia, tell us about your role at Kew and what a typical day looks like for you.

Julia Willison: So, I'm Head of Learning and Participation at Kew Gardens and what I'm responsible for is providing leadership in this particular area at Kew and wanting to position Kew as a centre for excellence in plant and fungal science education. And under my remit comes formal learning. That's all the schools programmes and teacher training. So we've got about 90,000 school pupils that come on site each year and we engage with about 200,000 online. We have a youth programme which is growing. There's a lot of demand there for young people to get involved environmentally as well. Families, in early years, we run programmes for families, but up to seven year olds, specific sessions.

Julia Willison: We run community engagement, and that includes community horticulture. I'm responsible for the access programmes across the site as well. That's for people who may have sensory needs or different access needs. We have a national outreach learning programme and then slight anomaly is that the volunteers also sit with me. So we've got 800 volunteers across Kew Gardens and Wakehurst, and the central function of that sits with my remit. So looking at some of the strategies around what we're doing with volunteers and diversifying our volunteers, et cetera, that's my remit.

Kelly Molson: They’re quite a bit.

Julia Willison: Yeah. No, it's fantastic. I'm very lucky. And there's no one typical day, but you can imagine. Well, I get going with a cup of coffee every day and sometimes I'll spend one day a week working from home.

Julia Willison: But the rest of the time, I like to be on site. Kew has got to be one of the most beautiful locations to work. Kew has got to be one of the most beautiful locations to work. I am so lucky. I know that.

Julia Willison: And I've probably got the best office in Kew. If you come and visit Kelly, you'll see that the office I have looks out over the Palm House of Kew, which is the most iconic glass house. It was a glass house that was built between 1844 and 48 and it houses the tropical plants, so it is just the most amazing place to work. I attend a lot of meetings, as you can imagine, with my teams and staff across the organisation about operations sometimes, and strategy and new and exciting projects that we're looking at what we can do. I sit on cross organisational steering groups and committees that focus on public programmes.

Julia Willison: We have a strong focus on equality, diversity and inclusion across the organisation. And safeguarding. Well, I still am the designated safeguarding lead for Kew, so I'm involved in that still. And I also lead the steering group for Kew on the outreach strategy and the schools learning strategy. And then, as well, I often work on preparing project proposals, because funding is a major issue for our organisation, and so funding and reporting and then talking to potential donors. So that's my sort of typical day, really.

Kelly Molson: I feel quite privileged that I get to speak to so many incredible women that have these hugely varied roles and do so much in a day. Very capable people that I get to speak to. It's quite humbling. We're going to talk quite a lot today about a manifesto that Kew implemented. I'm just going to take you back. So I think it was in March 2021, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew launched a ten year strategy to end extinction crisis and protect nature. And it's a really bold and incredibly inspiring manifesto. I'm just going to read out the ethos of it.

Kelly Molson: So, the mission of Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew is to understand and protect plants and fungi for the well being of people and the future of all life on earth. Our aspiration is to end the extinction crisis and to help create a world where nature is protected, valued by all and managed sustainably. So this was back in 2021. How has the manifesto been implemented within the organisation? How did it get created in the first place, and how does that kind of get explained and put into practise?

Julia Willison: Good question. We started in the pandemic, looking at the need to build a new strategy, because our older strategy was coming to the end, and over the years has been a building of staff in Kew, talking about wanting to see more urgency in the work that we do, or to describe it in a more urgent terms, what we're trying to do at Kew. And so the pandemic, while it was a terrible time, it was a time that Kew took to step back and look at the bigger picture and then come together around this urgency of climate change and biodiversity loss. And there was a lot of consultation, a lot of iterations of the strategy that went out to staff to feed into this.

Julia Willison: It was a significant job, and there was a team, a small team of people that were working on it, taking the consultation back in centrally. And then what emerged through the consultation were five key priorities that we then agreed, or was agreed then for the next ten years. And that was agreed then by the executive board and signed off by the board of trustees. I'll mention the five priorities, and I can give a few bits of examples of some of the work we do around those. The first priority is deliver science based knowledge and solutions to protect biodiversity and use natural resources sustainably. Kew is primarily a scientific and horticultural organisation, and we struggle sometimes that many people see Kew Gardens as the gardens and don't see the science behind the gardens.

Julia Willison: The gardens are essential and they contain precious plant collections. There is also science and research behind that. We've got over 400 scientists and about 150 horticulturalists. And so it's the bedrock accused contribution to ending biodiversity and maintaining sort of healthy ecosystems. So there are lots of examples that I could give. People probably don't know this. We have a resource centre in Madagascar, scientific resource centre, and scientists there are working with the rural Malagasy people on food security and particularly on conserving yams that are native to Madagascar. We work in over 120 countries, working with partners in Ethiopia to reduce biodiversity loss. The Ethiopian economy depends very much on coffee, and something like 25% of the population rely directly or indirectly on coffee for their livelihood. And so Kew is working with partners to maintain traditional forest based areas where coffee grows natively.

Julia Willison: And that is proving vital for sustainability, for livelihoods and also for biodiversity. Close to home. We have scientists here at Kew working on the chemistry of nectar and pollen, because many bee species in the UK, there are around 240 different species of bees in the UK. So honey bees are just one species. There's lots of different bumblebees, lots of different native bee species, and they're under threat because of climate change from disease and parasites. So what scientists here are identifying plants that have compounds in the nectar and pollen that could help bees themselves manage their own diseases more sustainably. So that's an important area of research. Kew is also, as part of manifesto, we're digitising our collections. We’ve got a wrap quarter a way through digitising 8.25 million preserved plants and fungal specimens. So it's an enormous task. And 200,000 botanical illustrations. What else we're doing?

Julia Willison: We have a sister site. I don't know if you know this, Kelly. We have a sister site at Wakehurst. It's our wild botanic garden in West Sussex and it's a site of excellence, really, in conservation and science. It's home to the Millennium Seed Bank, where we've banked something like 2.4 billion seeds from more than 40,000 plant species. And so there's the project being run at Wakehurst called Nature Unlocked, and that's using the landscape of Wakehurst, which is about two kilometres squared, as a living laboratory. And the idea is to collect high quality scientific evidence of the value of biodiversity in the soil as well as in the landscape. This evidence to inform land management policies and practises, so that can then key develop. Decision makers can then use this evidence to make informed decisions about what they do around the land.

Kelly Molson: That's just one point.

Julia Willison: I'll be quicker with the other.

Kelly Molson: Please feel free to share. Don't hold back. But it's quite mind blowing, isn't it, how much that you do that people just aren't aware of?

Julia Willison: Yeah, this is just a very small snapshot. I mean, I could have taken any one of hundreds of examples of what scientists here at Kew are doing. The second priority is inspire people to protect the natural world, and that really is threaded through all our public engagement work. And that's going from our festivals, our exhibitions, all the interpretive panels we do, the website, our social media, all the learning and participation programmes we do. So we use this as a lens to look through and to make sure that the work we're doing is all checking ourselves, that we are inspiring people to protect the natural world. I mentioned earlier we have a national outreach programme and this programme is inspiring communities to take action for biodiversity, specifically through transforming their local spaces with UK native plants.

Julia Willison: So community groups we know will grow other plants, but we also encourage them to focus also on UK native plants as well. Another plan in the manifesto is to create a carbon garden, and that's to communicate stories around how carbon is captured in plants and soil, and how we use this to mitigate climate change, for example, through planting trees and also looking at different carbon related services, such as biofuels. And we have the plans for the garden. It's in planning permission. It's gone for planning permission at the moment and we're waiting to hear. And as soon as we hear, it'll probably take us about a year or so to build the garden, but we'll use it then very much for learning and communicating about the importance of carbon, so people know. So that's priority two.

Julia Willison: Priority three is train the next generation of experts, new scientists and horticultural is critical to the future of life on earth. And so Kew has accelerated its work in this. And we offer three month PhD placements for anybody across the UK who's doing a PhD. Part of their PhD often includes a placement. So we offer those placements at Kew and we're very keen to attract PhD students. We also are working in partnership with a couple of universities, Queen Mary, University of London and the Royal Holloway, University of London, to run in partnership master's courses. MSc courses. And we've got three courses that we run. MSc in biodiversity and conservation, an MSc in plant and fungal taxonomy, diversity and conservation. And then the newest MSc is on global health, food security, sustainability and biodiversity.

Kelly Molson: I can imagine that the world that we're in now, there's actually a lot more demand for those courses as well. I imagine that they're oversubscribed multiple times.

Julia Willison: Yes. And they're open to international students, so we get quite a lot of international students coming. So that's really good. We had 60 students starting this year on the courses, but on a master's course, taking 20 students, it's quite an intense course. And I know that Kew has, like you say, there's a demand to study further in this area, and so there are still developing the possibility of new courses with universities. That's good.

Julia Willison: But one of the things for my remit that I'm very keen about is that there's a pathway and that Kew considers its pathway from very early years, attracting kids to become very interested in nature, and then going through and providing school programmes that then encourage children to then take science as a possible career choice, or be informed about science, which is one of the reasons why we launched the Endeavour Online programme to make our resources that focus on educational resources that focus on Kew, science and horticulture, but make them available to schools across the UK.

Kelly Molson: That's phenomenal. And that's a lot of the things that we're going to talk about today. What point are we at? We've done point 3.

Julia Willison: Okay. So extend our reach.

Kelly Molson: Extend reach. That's right. Point 4.

Julia Willison: That's about cubing a go to place for anyone and everyone to explore the importance of plants and fungi and how they add value to our lives. And we're working hard to expand our digital resources to make sure that we can engage with as many people as possible. But we also recognise that there are large numbers of the population that would love to visit Kew or either have never heard about us or don't see Kew as a place for them. So we've set down a target to increase tenfold the number of visitors from underrepresented communities to the gardens. And one of the ways that we've done this straight away is to introduce a one pound ticket for people who were on universal credit or pension credit, and that's to remove the economic barrier to visiting.

Julia Willison: To date, around 50 - 60,000 people have taken advantage of the initiative in 18 months. However, we have a very ambitious director and he feels that we should be able to dial this up to about 100,000 per year. So that requires us then to go out specifically targeting people who are on universal credit and pension credit and say, "Look, we want you to come to Kew." But on top of this, we also run a range of programmes specifically for people who face barriers to Kew. And that's not only economic, that could be social barriers, psychological or physical barriers. That's priority four, which I think we're going to go into more about some of that.

Kelly Molson: Three and four we're going to focus on.

Julia Willison: Yeah. So the fifth one is influencing national and international opinion and policy. So in order to do that, we need to encourage debate and shape decision making. And Kew works with a lot of policymakers. Kew is a large institution.

Julia Willison: We've got about 1400 staff that work at Kew and 800 volunteers. We have lots of different teams and departments. We do have a department that focuses specifically on working with government and policy makers. And the idea is to support them, to provide the evidence that Kew brings to the table so that people can make well informed decisions. One example is about Tropical Important Plant Areas, those TIPA for short. Kew is working with six countries across the globe and the idea is to work with partners in the countries to help them identify important plant areas so that these areas will then be conserved. That involves an enormous amount of negotiation, discussion, and to date there's three TIPAs that have already been established, so that's really important for conservation of those areas.

Julia Willison: And, of course, we work closely with Defra, that's our sponsoring department in the UK government, and they've recently asked you to take the leading role as a strategic science lead for a new institution, I suppose, that has been set up. It’s not a physical institution. It’s a consortium. It’s been called the Global Centre on Biodiversity for Climate. So what Kew will do is write the research strategy that will define the key themes for funding calls that will be given money, and then the projects that will then provide the evidence to feed into policies that will then help make decisions about the impact of biodiversity on climate and people's livelihoods. So that's a really significant thing that Kew's done.

Kelly Molson: This is such an eye opener for myself, having been a visitor to Kew, appreciated the beautiful gardens and the plants that you have there, but actually really having no idea about all of the things that happen in the background. So this is just like you say, the attraction is just one very small part of this huge organisation. There's so much that you do. I hope this is eye opening for people that are listening to this as well, because there's a lot going on here. The points from the manifesto, the key priorities for manifesto are, I mean, each one of them you could take and break down into a different podcast episode. What we're going to talk about is points three and four. We're going to focus on those today.

Kelly Molson: So point 3 was to train the next generation of experts, and point 4 was to extend our reach. We're going to focus on them because there's a huge desire at Kew to improve inclusivity, and so we're going to kind of break down what is happening within those points to actually help support do that. So you said that one of the key changes that Kew has committed to achieving by 2030, I think this is to increase tenfold the number of visitors from the presently underrepresented communities to the gardens. And obviously the gardens facilitate the start of that learning journey. Right. That it's exposing people to, I guess, a world that they might not be familiar with, plants that they definitely won't be familiar with, or even just certain job roles that they might not have thought was for them.

Kelly Molson: How do you begin to change the kind of views and attitudes from the general public who don't think that Kew is for them, a place for them in the first place?

Julia Willison: Well, our aim is to break down that perception. So I think one of the things that has happened to be able to start on this journey is an organisational commitment to include everyone and bringing everybody on board, that we are really intent, we really want to do this. So that's involved training our visitor facing staff and our volunteers so that they provide a warm welcome to anyone, regardless of their background. We've trained our staff in accessibility and safeguarding and then diversity and inclusion. And this year we will roll out more diversity and inclusion training to staff across all areas of the organisation. So when people come here, it's making sure that they feel safe and they feel represented in the gardens. But just providing a welcome is not going to be sufficient.

Julia Willison: We do need to reach out and connect with different communities to tell them that Kew exists. We have people visiting Kew from our local boroughs that have never heard of us, which is extraordinary, really. So we really try and encourage them to visit. So we have teams of staff who, in different teams, will visit the different groups and they'll run workshops with the groups at their venues so that groups can find out about Kew before they visit. They realise that the people that come to visit them are really quite friendly and really excited about them coming to Kew. And also, people have said that Kew is a very large place when you come here. I mean, people come and visit Kew, they come for a day, but you never see everything at Kew for a day.

Julia Willison: So people feel that it can be a bit intimidating, especially if they've not visited before. So when we bring people on site for the first time, when we've made connections with community groups or other teams, what we do is we'll offer a programme or a tour, so that when they come to visit us, that they make them feel comfortable about returning on their own.

Kelly Molson: Sure. So it gives them that level of familiarity by doing the tour that they can then come back and explore. They can do that again, or they could go and explore the different areas that were particularly appealing to them.

Julia Willison: Yeah. So we have all sorts of different programmes and we have a community access scheme as well as the one pound ticket. We have community access scheme. So any groups that provide services to people who face barriers from visiting Kew, which I said earlier, sensory, psychological, social barriers, they can join our community access scheme and they can get 60 tickets for 36 pounds. So that works out about 60 pence a ticket and they can always top up as they go along. And then as part of the scheme, they all receive a newsletter and that informs them about the community activities that we run. So that's another way of connecting groups to feel that Kew is a place for them to come and visit.

Kelly Molson: That's lovely. I was going to ask about the community access scheme and what initiatives have been formed to kind of support the organisations to do that, because I guess it's one thing the welcome is great, right. But that means that people have to come and get the welcome. So there's so much outreach that has to be done to bring the people to you in the first place. So the community access scheme, what kind of organisations would that be relevant for?

Julia Willison: All sorts. We have about 350 members on our access scheme. When I first started at Kew, most of those groups, there were fewer number of groups, but most of those groups were, I would say, for third age people, different groups, but mainly servicing older people. Now we've got all sorts of groups, so we've got LGBT+ groups, we have deaf groups, asian women's groups. We have a whole different range of groups that see Kew as a place that they could join and come and bring with their members. And one of the things that we do run is continuing professional development training for group leaders, specifically for those leaders, so that they then feel confident to come to Kew with their groups on their own and will provide resources for them to use in the landscapes and enjoy with Kew.

Kelly Molson: And that adds to that, I guess, like what you were saying earlier about, you want this to be the start of the journey. You need it to be the start of the journey for those groups as well, don't. You don't want to encourage them to come along once and that's like a box that they've ticked. They've done Kew. You want them to come back and keep reengaging with the environment there. So that's brilliant to then be able to train those leaders to take that bit on themselves.

Julia Willison: I was just to say, a few years ago, we started a community open week, which is a free week for community groups, any community groups across London. In fact, some groups come from further afield, but we put on a range of workshops and tours during that week for groups to come and just experience Kew and the idea is, if we can, is to try and encourage them to sign up to the access scheme and continue, as you say, the journey and come back and find out more.

Kelly Molson: I guess that's the community access scheme. And obviously you've got kind of partnerships going ongoing with kind of local community. What about national community groups? So how do you kind of expand your remit into the wider audience of people that aren't located near Kew?

Julia Willison: Yeah. That's a good question because that costs money, doesn't it, for them to come to Kew. So we have had people come from Birmingham and people can join. We've initially contained it within the M25, so a lot of people coming within the M25, but we've just removed that barrier now, I mean, it didn't need to be there. And we have seen some people, some groups coming from outside. We don't have bursaries to be able to provide, sadly, to groups to come to Kew. They are, of course, very welcome. I think one of the things is that we've just brought somebody on board this year who is doing some more community outreach to going out and trying to connect with new groups to visit Kew and part of that will involve producing some marketing materials that can then travel further than just our confines.

Julia Willison: So we'll see. We may then receive other groups in from much further afield, which would be great. And also Wakehurst, our sister site, has set up a community access scheme as well, so they will hopefully then encourage those organisations and groups in further south of London.

Kelly Molson: Amazing. How is Kew helping to remove barriers and improve access to nature for children and families, both kind of on site and off site?

Julia Willison: We've been running an early years programme since about 2018. Before that, we had a family programme and we've made connections with children's centres in our local boroughs. Every borough, every county in the UK will have a children's centre or multiple children's centres. And the aim of the children's centres is to try and help those families that may slip through the net to be able to ensure that they don't. And so what we have done is we have a recent project which is to work with children's centres in London and we're working in five boroughs with different about ten children's centres. And the team is going to the children's centres running nature based play sessions in the children's centres. And then over the summer, we invite the families to come to Kew. We give them funding to do that.

Julia Willison: We refund their travel, we run activities on site and then later in the year, we've been running training sessions specifically for the children's centre leaders so that they can then take this work forward when Kew has to step back from going to the children's centres. And we've got this project running for about three or four years now, which is great. But on top of this, we also run on site sessions for early years and half of them are paid for sessions for those families that can afford to pay for earlier sessions. And then the money that we use from that, we then subsidise those families from children's centres, community groups that can't afford to pay. So we try and get a balance, because we don't ourselves have an endless pot of money and we're constantly looking for funding to try and support this work.

Kelly Molson: It's really hard, isn't it, to get that balance right. There is a commercial aspect here, right. You have to make money to be able to do all of these incredible projects and initiatives that you have, but you also need the funding to be able to support the incredible initiatives that you're running, to be able to allow everybody access to it. So it's like a vicious circle. What about schools outreach? How are you kind of broadening your reach to engage all schools? And how does that become more inclusive against the manifesto?

Julia Willison: So we've been very intent on saying that we want to extend our reach to embrace all schools, sort of all schools in different areas, but also, at the moment, we have about 60, 70. Well, it's now changed to 60% of pupils that come on site are from primary schools. We want to increase the number of secondary school pupils that we engage with. Children make career decisions around their GCSEs and their A levels, and many children from certain schools from more deprived areas will go for general science rather than triple science. And all the research shows that if children choose triple science, they're more likely to do science at a levels. So looking to try and influence those children in their career choices is important for us. And that means that we want to increase the number of secondary schools that we engage with.

Julia Willison: And we also have an intent on increasing the number of schools that have higher pupil premium, because in London, pupil premium is, you probably know, is that those children who are generally on those children, on free school meals, the school will receive a bursary from the government to try and reduce the attainment gap between those children on free school meals and those children on not.

Julia Willison: So we have had bursaries, we don't have any at the moment, but we have had bursaries then to attract specifically those schools on much higher pupil premium, and we've shifted the dial on this and we have higher numbers of schools with higher pupil premium students and those schools, then we try to influence and think about science as a possible aspect that they can consider further in their careers. So, in planning permission at the moment, we're looking at building a new learning centre at Kew, which would be really exciting. And we're going through ecology reports at the moment before we can get the planning permission through.

Julia Willison: But part of the learning centre will include four science laboratories, and so pupils can come on site to Kew will be able to come on site to queue and do science experiments in the heart of a scientific organisation. And all pupils doing GCSE and A levels have to do practical science experiments. We know from all the research that teachers don't necessarily feel confident in teaching about plants. So this is something that Kew really can uniquely offer schools to come to Kew and bring their pupils and get hands on with plant and fungal science experiments.

Kelly Molson: Oh my goodness. That would be incredible.

Julia Willison: Yes. And also it will provide us with the facilities to be able to do CPD online as well. So that's something that we're really keen to do.

Kelly Molson: That's a really interesting side of this, is because I know that one of your goals is to engage with all schools. Now, all schools aren't local to Kew. My school definitely wasn't local to Kew. So how do you do that? How do you make that jump from engaging with local schools that can actually access the site? What can you do digitally that can engage with more schools and more people, regardless of location?

Julia Willison: And one of the reasons that we are committed to engaging with all schools is because Kew is a national institution and we are funded partly. About 28% of our funding comes from the government, so it's paid for by taxes by people all over the country. So our commitment is to make our resources as available as widely as possible. And so we have an online programme called Endeavour, and that's a bank of resources specifically for teachers on all sorts of different. It's strongly linked to the national curriculum, but all sorts of different activities that teachers can use then to teach about plant science and fungi. But it straddles the natural curriculum not only in science, but for the primary ages.

Julia Willison: It will also look at history, it will look at geography, et cetera, so that we can try and make our resources as relevant as possible to teachers.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that is a phenomenal resource that maybe more teachers need to hear about that. I think I would have been really excited. I did do Science at school. I can remember. I'd have been really excited about doing something that was connected to Kew Gardens. There's quite a big buzz about that, you know what I mean? I don't know why there's a connection to that organisation that I think would have been really exciting to know that you were working on something that had been created by Kew.

Julia Willison: That's nice to hear that. We have a youth programme, which I'm very proud of. I think that the youth team is phenomenal, as are all the teams, but we run a youth explainer programme and that's on site, and young people come for a training programme every Saturday for six months and they go behind the scenes. They meet the horticulturist scientists and they learn communication skills. And what they do is we bring a game designer on site and they learn how to design their own game to play with the public about endangered plants or habitats. And the young people have to work together in groups and they produce this game. And then six months after, once they've finished their training, they then become explainers in the glass houses.

Julia Willison: And the public, actually, they love interacting with young people and they bring a real buzz about it. So that's been a very successful programme. And on the back of this, we've developed a young environmental leader award. And the idea is that young people will develop their project and they will evidence different dimensions of leadership through their project. So they'll keep a portfolio and they have to evidence how they've developed their leadership skills during this journey. And then we award them with a young environmental leader award, and that's something that we do in house. But then the possibility is then to scale that, to make that available to young people outside Kew as well.

Kelly Molson: That would be incredible, wouldn't it? Yeah, that would be a really special thing to be involved in. Okay, so we said earlier we're recording this. It's January 2024. Wow. How is Kew delivering against the manifesto after its first full two years?

Julia Willison: Well, Kew is nothing if not ambitious. There is a real strong commitment to ending the extinction crisis. I mean, we can't do this alone and we have to do it in partnership. But I would say that we're firmly on the way to achieving many of the deliverables in the manifesto. And there's a real. People have really bought into. The staff have really bought into the manifesto, and you see that through. We run a staff survey every year and ask for feedback about whether what people think about the manifesto, do they feel their work is contributing to delivering it? And we get very high scores on that consistently we have since the manifesto was published. One of the deliverables in there is to revision the Palm House that I sit opposite in my office.

Julia Willison: And we want that to become net zero and engage new generations with science and conservation work and make our data available to everyone. So we are moving towards that. And we've got some seed funding to be able to do this. I'd say that the bricks are in place and the foundations have been laid, and much of the work requires external funding and partnerships. But we have a vision, and I think people and organisations recognise what Kew's work is as vital. And I don't think that's overstating it, but that helps to open doors for support. So I think we're moving forwards, and I think there's a very positive feel about the work that we're doing. We're very fortunate.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it sounds very positive. And like we said earlier, there's so much to cover in this, Julia, and thank you for coming on and just talking about a very small element of all of the incredible things that are actually happening at Kew. So we always end our podcast by asking our guests to recommend a book that you love, something that you love personally or something that's helped shaped your career in some way. What have you chosen for us today?

Julia Willison: Well, I chose a book that is a phenomenal book and by a woman who is phenomenal, and it is related to my work. But I chose the book because I think it is so inspirational. It's a book called Finding the Mother Tree: Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest by Suzanne Simard. And we awarded her the 16th Kew International Medal for her work and her devotion to championing biodiversity in forests. She's worked in British Columbia all her life in Canada, and she was the pioneer of the theory that plants communicate with each other through a huge subterranean fungal network. And the book reveals how trees connect and cooperate with each other, and that each forest contains hub trees. So mother trees. And that these trees in the forest play a critical role in the flow of information and resources.

Julia Willison: So I feel that the book will change the way people look at forests. They're not simply a source for timber or pulp, but they are really part of a complex, interdependent circle of life. And I think it's a magnificent book. Well, if one reader reads it and enjoys it, I think that will be brilliant.

Kelly Molson: Do you know what? I have to read this book. So this is the second podcast, interestingly, where. Oh, not the book. The book has never been recommended before. No, this is a completely new one. So David Green, Head of Innovation at Blenheim, was on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, and he talked about how trees communicate with each other, and that was a new thing for me. I had no idea that trees talk to each other, and the way that he described it was really interesting. And now this has come up in this as well. And I feel like someone is sending me a message that I need to read this book. So that's going to go top of my list, right.

Kelly Molson: Erveryboday, listeners, you know what to do if you want to win a copy of Julia's book, then head over to our Twitter account and retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Julia's book and you could potentially be learning about how trees communicate with each other and are a vital part of an ecosystem. Thank you. That's fascinating. Everything that you've talked about today is so exciting, and I know that there's so much work still to be done. Thank you for coming on and sharing about all of the things that you do there and all of the things that you're hoping to achieve. I have no doubt that you will do them. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Julia Willison: Yeah, it's a real privilege. Thank you very much, Kelly. Thank you.

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enJanuary 24, 2024

Interactivity for visitor attraction websites, with Kelly and Paul from Rubber Cheese

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Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics. In this episode, we'll talk about how you can make your site more interactive and the tasks and costs associated with that.

You can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Hello. Back for a fourth time.

Paul Marden: Hello.

Kelly Molson: What attraction have you visited most recently, and what did you love about it?

Paul Marden: Do I go first? I always go first.

Kelly Molson: We've got a format now. Don't break the format. I'm comfortable.

Paul Marden: I went to the Titanic Museum just recently. We were exhibiting, actually, at the Association of Science and Discovery Centres at their annual conference in Belfast, which was actually at W5 in the Titanic quarter of Belfast. And I could talk loads about W5, which I will do in another session. But the place that I went to that I was most kind of emotionally moved by which I'm a bit of a geek and I'm fairly concrete in terms of my emotional stuff, for me to feel moved.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. It's normally me that's got the blubbing.

Paul Marden: Yeah. So I was blown away by the experience at the Titanic Museum. I've never been to a museum with so few artefacts, which, of course, is because everything was lost at sea. And so the whole museum is about telling the story through reproductions and immersive experiences, which was all amazing. But then you stumble upon one of the original artefacts as you're wandering around, and there's only a handful of them, but it hit me like a brick wall when I actually came across them. So there's a life jacket. There's only twelve of those left in existence, and they've got one of them at the museum. And you walk into this room, where all of the names of the victims of this tragedy are on this massive wall. And it's a darkened room, but lit in the centre of the room was this one life jacket.

Paul Marden: Amazing. And then you walk around and there's a section talking about the root cause of the accident. And there are the keys to the binocular store from the crow's nest, which happened to be in the second officer's pocket. And he had to get off the ship in Southampton and he didn't get back on, and so there were no keys. And so the people that were in the crow's nest couldn't open the box with the binoculars that would have led them to see the iceberg.

Kelly Molson: Wow. What a story. That wasn't in the film.

Paul Marden: No, it wasn't in the film. So it's really impactful. And then the storytelling was amazing, but completely lost on me. So I was chatting to. I made a new friend, Lucinda Lewis, the CEO of Catalyst Science and Discovery Centre, and we would, like, both say how amazing it was, how impactful it was. And she was like, "Yeah, and the dominoes." And I'm like, "Dominoes? What dominoes?"

Paul Marden: And she was like, "Did you not see when you were looking at all of the root causes, they wrote them on these big pillars that were toppling, showing you the domino effect." I was like, "Okay, yeah, that was completely lost on me."

Kelly Molson: So lesson for you is you need to pay more attention to the interpretation next time.

Paul Marden: Completely clueless to the subtext of what was going on around me. But the story was amazing.

Kelly Molson: Story is really cool. Yeah. I have never heard that before. That's really impressive. I think that picture that you painted of all the names with the one kind of life jacket in the middle of it is so powerful. I can see it in my head, but I've never seen it.

Paul Marden: That was only one of a dozen kind of really powerful memories that I've got of being just blown away by their storytelling and how they communicated what happened. It was just an amazing place.

Kelly Molson: Nice. I've got it. I missed that I couldn't make it to the conference this year because I was elsewhere.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. What have you been doing recently? Where have you been?

Kelly Molson: So this is a very recent one, literally last week, last Thursday, I was very kindly invited to go and visit the Ashmolean Museum, which is a free to enter museum. But what I really liked is they have a very large donations area as you first walk in and you've got card donations. Beep. So easy. I never have cash, so that was a big thumbs up for me. The museum is brilliant. I mean, it has some brilliant exhibitions in it that are there. They're always there. But I was really keen to go and see their colour revolution exhibition, which is all around Victorian art, fashion and design. Some of you might not know this about me, but I was a graphic designer in the past, actually. Probably. Actually, loads of you people know about that. Loads.

Kelly Molson: I was a graphic designer once upon a time and I was a packaging designer and just design and colour. And also I've got a real passion for kind of interior design as well. So all of these things just, I have a big love of. So this exhibition for me was like, "This is the one. This is a big tick." What I found really fascinating is that Victorian Britain has this kind of connotation of being really dull and dreary, and the exhibition was kind of exploring that. It's absolutely incorrect, but they start with Queen Victoria's morning dress, which is a really powerful image. So after Prince Albert's sudden death, she plunged into a very deep grief. And she actually wore. I didn't know this. She wore black for the remaining 40 years of her life. I had no idea that she.

Kelly Molson: I mean, I knew she mourned for a really long time. I had no idea she never wore another colour again. So she's obviously such an iconic image, an iconic person of that era, that image probably sticks with you, which is why it adds to that illusion of Victorian’s love in the dark completely. But they didn't they really love colour. And they love to experiment with it. And they have a big thing about insects and animals and bringing that into the colours that they wore. And the jewellery, like, some of the jewellery, like this beetle necklace, was just incredible. And there is a lot of. I know that they have a lot of that in their kind of fabrics and their kind of artwork from that time as well. But what I really loved is really small artefact in the museum that I totally loved. So it was a very early colour chart, like a paint sample colour chart. So this is quite current for me at the minute.

Kelly Molson: My office is full of furnishings because we're renovating a cottage in Norfolk and it's not ready, but I've had to order all the things for it or find them off Facebook Marketplace and eBay and charity shops and vintage places and my office. So colour chart and all of that kind of stuff is, like, right up here at the moment. But anyway, there was an 1814 Scottish artist called Patrick Syme, and he tried to solve the problem of how to describe colour by giving each one of them a name. But he draw nature to do this. So you have, like, mole's breath now from Barrow and ball and lighting green and those kind of stuff. Well, this is where this started in the Victorian age, so it's absolutely beautiful. I posted it on my LinkedIn.

Kelly Molson: But this colour chart is just gorgeous and it gives a number for each colour. So number 54. Its name was Duck green. The animal that it was named after is the neck of Mallard. I actually thought the colour was neck of Mallard, which I was like, that's absolutely brilliant. The vegetable that it was similar to is the upper disc of yew leaves, and the mineral is. I don't know if I'm going to pronounce this Ceylanite and I Googled it isn't green. I had no idea what ceylanite is, but it's not green.

Paul Marden: Yeah, I'd struggle to identify a yew tree, let alone the upper disc green of a yew tree's leaf.

Kelly Molson: Well, there you go. Honestly, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. It was really interesting. And that for me was like, I know it's a really small artefact, but it was the standout one for me because it just connected with some of it is so current for me at the moment. It was £15 pounds to go and see this exhibition and that is money well spent. It's open now until the 18th of Feb 2024. So totally get yourselves along to visit that. And also their restaurant and food is top notch.

Paul Marden: Was it good? Was it really okay?

Kelly Molson: We'll talk about that another time.

Paul Marden: We've done a few of the Oxford Uni museums, but we've not done the Ashmolean yet, so that needs to be on my list of places to go.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, definitely worth a little visit. Okay. Right. We're going to talk about interactivity today. Making your website more interactive can improve engagement which is more likely to improve your conversion rate. But very few attractions have interactive elements, which is quite surprising, actually. So we're going to talk about how you can make your site a bit more interactive and immersive. So one, the stat from the survey is that, 53% of visitor attractions survey don't have any interactive elements on their websites.

Kelly Molson: So that's like. I'm quite surprised about that because during the pandemic, went all in on interactivity. We had to. It was the only way that you could kind of get people to your site and get people engaged in what you were doing. And we're talking about things like virtual tours, interactive maps, or even just integrating video and audio on your site is a way of making it interactive as well. So, yeah, I was quite surprised that it was so low, actually.

Paul Marden: Yeah, it surprised me as well, because a lot of the people that we talk to want that kind of interactive content added into their sites.

Kelly Molson: Do you think. And I'm not trying to make us idiots here again, because we did enough of that on the last episode, but do you think that people understand that video and audio is an interactive element?

Paul Marden: That's a good point.

Kelly Molson: Or is our expectation of it to be more. Because audio and video, do we see that as a standard thing now? We don't see that as a special element.

Paul Marden: That could be absolutely true. And we talked a lot about things that we could do to improve the survey for next time. There's a real risk, isn't there? Because you could ask a lot more very detailed questions. Do you have a virtual tour? Do you have an interactive map? Do you have video and audio on your site? And now, all of a sudden, we've gone from one question to three questions, and we're asking too much of everybody when they fill stuff in, so you end up having to have broader questions, but those broader questions themselves become a little ambiguous. So maybe there's an element of. It could be that there's a bunch of people in that 53% of people that don't have interactivity, that may have stuff that is video or audio that we would consider to be interactive, but they don't.

Kelly Molson: Do you think as well, that because life has gone back to relative normality for the majority of us, that we just are not engaging with those things as much, or they just not seem to be as relevant anymore?

Paul Marden: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? We talk about audience personas and trying to personalise the site to give people exactly the content that's relevant to them. Who is the target audience for the virtual tour? Is the target audience for a virtual tour the people that are going to come visit? Is it a way of enticing people to come and physically come on site? Is it a way of extending the reach of the attraction, or let's say it's a cultural or museum kind of setting? Is it a way for them to extend the reach of their collection to people that can't come. Understanding what the interactivity is there for and how it enables the audience to achieve the goal that they're trying to achieve. And for the clients, the attraction themselves, to be able to achieve what their goal is for that audience group is interesting.

Paul Marden: Interactivity for its own sake doesn't help anyone if you're not really thought about why you're putting it there.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I was just trying to think. I've got a really good case study of this and I've forgotten the name of the place. I want to talk about it, but I've forgotten the name of it, so I'll give you an explanation of it instead. Years ago, so. Oh, God, I think this is. In 2015, Lee and I went to Australia on holiday. Lee actually asked me to marry him in Australia at Ayers Rock. It was very romantic.

Paul Marden: Oh, wow.

Kelly Molson: But one of the best, I should say that was the best trip, obviously, that was the best trip, but one of the other best trips that went on while were there. When were in Melbourne, I've gone to the island and I've forgotten the name of the island. It's come off totally out of my head. But went to see the little penguins, so the penguin parade that comes in. These penguins come in to shore every night and you can go and watch them come in. It's like an army of miniature penguins. And it genuinely is the most magical thing I've ever seen in my whole life. And you can't take photos because it hurts their eyes. So you're immersing yourself into this experience and it's all up here in my head.

Kelly Molson: Well, during the pandemic, they started live broadcasting it on Facebook and I was like, "Shut up. This is amazing." Because it's an expensive trip back to Australia, but I'd love to do that again. I would absolutely 100% go back and do that again. But this was like a magical opportunity to see it in my home office and watch it as well. So those kind of opportunities, I think, are pretty magical.

Paul Marden: You reminded me of in the middle of lockdown, I was obsessed by watching the webcam at Monterey Bay Aquarium.

Kelly Molson: I just got something else that got obsessed about a few weeks ago, which is I watched the webcam Sandringham have got. No, is it Sandringham or Balmoral? One of them have got a webcam with the Red Squirrels. I think it's Balmoral. And I got absolutely, totally obsessed with it. Had it on in the corner of the screen just while I was working, just going, "Is it there yet? Is it back yet? Red squirrel. Red squirrel."

Paul Marden: I think it might be. The two of us were looking at penguins and sea otters during the height of the pandemic when were desperate to travel. Now, watching Red squirrels on a webcam might be, might not have the same justification for the rest of your day's life.

Kelly Molson: It's really cool. It's really cool. You don't get to see red squirrels very often.

Paul Marden: No, you don't.

Kelly Molson: Anyway, apologies went off on a total tangent, but you can see, look, we've got really animated about this, so you can totally see the value of having those kind of experiences on your website and being to engage with different audiences.

Paul Marden: Should we do a stat? Should we talk about some numbers?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, what's the benefits?

Paul Marden: Yeah. So HubSpot again. We talk about HubSpot data all the time. But HubSpot found that interactive content like quizzes, assessments and polls can increase time spent on a website by 80%. That one's lifted straight out of the survey that we put into there. But there's some more. The Content Marketing Institute shows that 81% of marketers agreed that interactive content grabbed more attention than static content. But that chimes with the data that we gathered from people, doesn't it? Because a lot of people do think that this is important stuff. Maybe not quite to the same level that the Content Marketing Institute found, but obviously people in the results set from our survey thought that this was important.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And I think it depends on what that interactive content is. So, interestingly, when we did the live webinar for the report, we had someone on the webinar mention that they were a bit worried about distraction. So we talk a lot about focusing people's attention on the job in hand, which is ultimately showcase what your attraction does, get them to buy a ticket. And this person said, are we distracting them from those journeys by doing that? But I don't know if it's part of the purchase journey. I think it might be post purchase. It feels for me like post purchase, getting them to come back and engage in your site, repeat visit stuff, just those things around quizzes and assessment and polls and stuff like that. And also this example that I just gave about the little penguins.

Kelly Molson: I absolutely will go back to that place one day and being able to engage with it keeps it front and centre of my mind to go. When we go back to Australia, I'm going to take my kid to see that because she will love it. I'll make sure she loves it. And I don't know if it's part of the first point of engagement. I think it's post purchase engagement.

Paul Marden: That's interesting. Yeah. What the problems say?

Kelly Molson: Anyway, problems? Sustainability.

Paul Marden: Yeah. Shall I share a bugbear of mine that I share regularly in meetings all the time. But a lot of interactive content, especially the stuff that uses video, can be inherently unsustainable. Video uses bandwidth. And a lot of people don't think of the impact that websites can have on CO2 emissions. Yeah, it's a link that I don't think many people make. I certainly didn't until there's been a lot of talk around in our industry about this in the last couple of years and it's really opened my eyes up. It's easy to understand if you work for an airline, you can see the CO2 emissions coming out the back of the plane, but if you build websites, you don't see it necessarily, but video consumes bandwidth and bandwidth takes all of these things, the compute power to produce the video and publish it out onto the Internet.

Paul Marden: And then to shift all of that data across the Internet ultimately uses energy, and that energy comes at the cost of producing CO2. So one of the obvious ways, if we're just talking about video itself, because video is one kind of more interactive element, avoiding autoplaying videos, which is my absolute bugbear when you land on a home page of a website. And the video autoplays that for me, now that my eyes have been opened to the impact of it, I only used to see the conversion rate benefit, but now the cost associated with that is clear in my mind. And I think if we can avoid doing that and find other ways to increase conversion, I think that's really important. But also doing things to make sure that we understand what the sustainability impact of the web pages that we produce.

Paul Marden: So as we make our web pages more complex, they will produce more CO2 as a result of doing that. And I think as people become more aware of this, the world is going to change. At the moment, the people that buy from us, this is not something that is front and centre of their minds in the buying process, I think, at the moment. And there's a lot of power in the hands of the marketers and the procurement people to make it so that technical people like us that build things are required to take that sustainability perspective into account when we're building things and making sure that we build things sustainably.

Kelly Molson: And then there's accessibility. So interactive elements can be really great for people that can't visit your site, for one example. However, the digital aspect of that means that you could intentionally put something on your site which actually is less accessible for people who have visual impairments or hearing impairments, for example.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. If you've got video with audio, have you got subtitles? If you've got video, do you have audio descriptions that describe what the video is showing? If you've got an interactive map, how would you provide a more accessible way of being able to see the interactive map? If you've got a 3D, interactive, immersive virtual tour, how will you interact with that? If you can't see it, to interact with it, those are all things that people need to be thinking about. And many of the institutions that we work with will have a statutory obligation to think about it as well. It's not just a nice to have, it's a statutory obligation to do it as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so who's doing it well? I think we should just caveat this one by saying that our report and a survey and subsequent report are all anonymous.

Kelly Molson: If we ever share anyone's information, that is, in relation to the report data. We have asked for their express permission. Prior to this. Prior to sharing. In this instant, we've just gone out and found some stuff on people's websites and gone, “We really like this. This is really cool.” So we're not talking about these institutions in relation to survey data?

Paul Marden: No, absolutely. Should we talk about. The first one in our list was Mary Rose Trust. And the Mary Rose Museum has got an amazing array of interactive artefacts that they've listed off the bottom of the seabed and made it available on the website so you can come.

Kelly Molson: With your mouse, you can turn it around. Not with your hand.

Paul Marden: Not yet. The technology isn't quite there yet, but, yeah, you can interact with those artefacts and I think that's pretty amazing for an organisation like them, to be able to share those, because they've got an amazing collection of Tudor artefacts and to be able to share those with the outside world is really impressive. Yeah.

Kelly Molson: So that's like a simple technology where you can kind of 3D model the artefact and you can spin it around and you can click on elements of it that will tell you a little bit about this part of it or where it was found or the condition of it, et cetera. So that is super cool. What was the other one on this list that you were like, “This is great.”

Paul Marden: I really loved the Museum of London's Victorian Walk. It's a 3D tour affair and obviously they've scanned, taken photos and composed this together into this really cool 3D tour system that you can just move around and experience what life is like on a Victorian walk. I was blown away by, you were talking about the colour of Victorian England. Yeah, it was a really colourful experience. So in my mind, it was a bit like going into diagonally in Hogwarts in the Harry Potter world. It felt that kind of side street of London kind of thing. But you really got into it. It was very cool.

Kelly Molson: Oh, that's one for me. So I should go and do that and do a little comparison of how colourful it was based on my Ashmolean experience.

Paul Marden: Absolutely.

Kelly Molson: Okay, next steps that someone can take if they're thinking about stuff like this. So assess what you can do really quickly and easily. So what do we already have?

Paul Marden: Yeah, a lot of people are already going to have stuff, aren't they? So what video have they got? What audio have they got? Were they like Mary Rose and had a bunch of 3D scans of their artefacts that then you can stick into a tool and put onto your website. Obviously, if you've got a large collection and you want to 3D scan everything and put it onto your website, that's not a trivial undertaking, is it? But if you've already got the 3D scans of stuff and you need to then make it available on the website, then the step might be relatively much simpler than scanning your whole collection.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So have a look through your video, your audio, your 3D elements. What do you already have, what can you make more of? And then what can you easily add to your current site?

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of websites can add video and audio just straight out of the box. I'm going to get a bit geeky and talk about iframes, but essentially an iframe is a little cut out area of your website that you can post a little bit of content into that a lot of different interactive tools on the web will enable you to do so. The 3D models. There's a tool that you can create 3D models of the world in that we've used on a number of different projects. And then you just embed it as an iframe, which is essentially take a URL of your 3D scan and you pop it into your website and it comes out and works on the page as is. It's pretty awesome. And takes so little effort for your developers to be able to add it to the site.

Kelly Molson: Cool. And then think about what you could commission or think about some of the things that you could potentially look at as a larger piece of project work.

Paul Marden: Yeah, I mean, there's a brainstorming exercise, there, isn't there, of trying to get lots of people together and come up with creative ideas and think about what you can do. Some of the other stuff that we've talked about. Easy. Doesn't take a lot of effort. You've got the assets already or it's relatively easy to add them to your site. But what else could you do? That takes a lot of effort and planning.

Kelly Molson: Ask your visitors. Ask people what more they'd like to see.

Paul Marden: Yeah. Figuring out what your audience wants and how do you get them to that is step number one, isn't it?

Kelly Molson: Okay, and then what kind of budget are we looking at for some of these things?

Paul Marden: How long is a piece of string kind of question? This one isn't. It's really hard adding interactive maps onto your site that are fully accessible and easy to use. I guess you're looking at a few thousand pounds to be able to do that, potentially less depends on what you want to put into your interactive map, video and audio. If your website already supports it and you got a whole library of this stuff that you want to share with the outside world, it could cost you nothing but the time it takes you to add it to the site. And then you get into some of the more complex elements like the you can imagine that creating a 3D kind of immersive virtual walkthrough, that's not a trivial job.

Paul Marden: If you want to go and photograph an entire exhibit, walk around the whole floor plan of your museum and create an amazing virtual tour. That's going to take some effort, both in terms of getting the right people to turn up with the right kit to be able to do that photography, and then in terms of the technology that's needed to turn that into a virtual tour, and then the effort to embed that into the website itself could be amazing. Probably not a cheap exercise.

Kelly Molson: No, substantial investment, and just need to make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons and for the right audience as well. Also podcast if you are thinking about doing a podcast for your museum or your attraction, which I think is a genius idea, give us a shout and we'd be happy to share some of our kind of top tips.

Kelly Molson: I think we did an episode on it back in the day with Paul Griffith from Painshill Park, who actually, he interviewed me on this podcast and we talked about some of the reasons that we did it, how we set it up, and some of the kind of costumes around that as well. So it's worth having a little bit through, dig through the archive, but if you got any questions on that then yeah, give us a shout. Good chat again today. I enjoyed this.

Paul Marden: Been good, hasn't it?

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I'll see you next time.

Paul Marden: Thank you. Cheers, mate. Bye.

Kelly Molson: Bye bye.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

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enJanuary 10, 2024

How Blenheim Palace uses data and AI to predict, and not just report on past performance

Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

David Green | LinkedIn

https://www.blenheimpalace.com/

Head of Innovation at Blenheim Palace

David Green is responsible for driving innovation at Blenheim to deliver value from the implementation of novel business methods and new concepts. His role involves building a culture of continual improvement and innovation, bringing together and contextualising novel datasets through a data and IoT network infrastructure, and identifying opportunities to enhance customer experiences.

David leads the research and development at Blenheim, cultivating university partnerships, that helps fuse specialised knowledge with Blenheim's diverse landscape and practical challenges. Moreover, he initiated the Innovation and Continual Improvement network, fostering collaboration among sector leads to share expertise and address common challenges.

Joseph Paul | LinkedIn

https://vennersys.co.uk/

Associate Director – Key Account Manager

With 10 years of experience in SaaS Account Management and 6 years at Vennersys, Joe works closely with visitor attractions to optimise system performance and internal processes. He acts as a conduit between attraction managers and Vennersys, helping facilitate constructive communication to further develop and improve Vennersys’ own services based on customer needs or industry trends.

In his personal life, Joe can either be found playing hockey for his local club or taking long, refreshing walks in the hills and fields near his home.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

On today’s episode I speak with David Green, Head of Innovation at Blenheim Palace and Joseph Paul, Associate Director - Key Account Manager at Vennersys.

We’re talking about data - but not just the importance of it (we all know that right?). David and Joe share the exciting data and AI reporting systems that Blenheim have created, allowing them to predict, and not just report on past performance.

This is a really interesting episode and if you’re been a little bit put off or a little bit scared about AI up until this point, this might be the episode that changes your mind.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue.

Kelly Molson: David, Joe, it is lovely to have you both on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me on Skip the Queue.

David Green: It's great to be here.

Joseph Paul: Thanks for having us.

Kelly Molson: That sounded very positive, guys. Thanks. Feel the enthusiasm.

David Green: Let's see how the first question goes, shall we?

Kelly Molson: Listen, everyone worries about these icebreaker questions. It's just we're just in a pub, in a coffee shop having a little chat. That's all it is. Right, I want to know. We'll start with you, Joe. What was the last thing you binge watched on your streaming service of choice?

Joseph Paul: Gosh, that's a very good question. The last series we binge watch was a series called Bodies on Netflix, which is about a murder that happens in four different time periods and four detectives are trying to solve the murder. Very good if you haven't watched it.

Kelly Molson: I have seen this and Joe, it hurt my head a little bit.

Joseph Paul: Yeah. It is hard to keep track of some of the plots through the different times, but there's a very good ending worth watching if you haven't, David?

David Green: I don’t think I have. I didn't get a chance to watch TV.

Kelly Molson: So same question to you, David. That's a really good series as well, Joe. I thoroughly enjoyed that, although it did hurt the backwards forwards bit a little bit, was a bit mind blowing. Same question to you, David. What was the last thing that you binge watched?

David Green: Well, the last thing I probably binge watched was probably Breaking Bad. That just sort of shows you how long ago it was. I binge watched anything, but I'm desperate to watch it again. It was so good. I was just hooked on the first episode. I just loved every single minute of that.

Kelly Molson: Have you seen that, Joe?

Joseph Paul: Yes. Very good series. Probably one of the best of all time. And the question back would be, have you watched Better Call Saul?

David Green: Yeah, but I didn't find it as good. I say I didn't find as good. It was still great. I'm very fussy in the Greenhouse song.

Kelly Molson: I feel like I'm the only person in the whole world who's not watched Breaking Bad, which is this is quite controversial, isn't it? Everybody says that I would love it and I should watch it, but I feel overwhelmed that there's so many series to it and it would take up all of my TV viewing time for months and months. It would be the only thing that I could probably watch for the entire year and that feels too much.

Joseph Paul: It's well worth it. Absolutely. You should do it.

Kelly Molson: Dedicate 2024 as the year for Breaking Bad.

David Green: I'm going to own up. I've not watched a single episode of The Crown either and some of it was filmed at Blenheim. So I'm really embarrassed to admit that on this podcast.

Kelly Molson: That is a statement in a half, David. See, this is why I do the icebreakers. You never know what dirt you're going to get out. David, we're going to start with you with this one. What is the one food or drink that you cannot eat and you can't even think about without feeling a little bit queasy?

David Green: That's cheese pastry straight away. I remember when I was at school, we had a home economics club. I remember making these cheese straws and I took them home and I was so environmentally ill after these cheese straws ever since, I just can't even look at cheese pastry. All these nibbles that people without for drinks can't bear it. Cheese and pastry together is wrong.

Kelly Molson: This is really sad. I love a little cheese straw. I feel sad for you that you can't eat a cheese straw, David. I feel sad for you. Joe, what about you?

Joseph Paul: I can pretty much eat anything and I'm not overly put off by much. I think the one thing that turns me away from food is horseradish and any sauce. That's probably my only sort of food that I won't go to and puts me off eating anything that has.

Kelly Molson: Just horseradish or sauce in general. Are we talking like, sweet chilli dip? No?

Joseph Paul: Just horseradish. So anything that has that in it, I will stay away from. But apart from that, I'll pretty much eat anything anyone puts on my plate.

David Green: I think you're missing out, Joe.

Kelly Molson: Do you know what's probably really nice as well? Is a cheese straw with horseradish.

Joseph Paul: But cheese straws are the best.

David Green: I'm going to have to leave the room in a minute. We could talk about cheese straw.

Kelly Molson: Sorry. All right, let's move on from that. Right, I want to know I was quite kind to those ones. I want to know what your unpopular opinions are. Joe, let's start with you.

Joseph Paul: Not sure this is going to go down too well, but my unpopular opinion is Harry Potter is an overrated film series.

Kelly Molson: Books or films or both?

Joseph Paul: Films, predominantly.

Kelly Molson: Wow. I mean, my husband would absolutely agree with you. So I got him to watch the first one and then we got halfway through the second one and he paused it and looked at me and said, "Kelly, I just can't do this. Sorry." And left the room. That was it. Done.

Joseph Paul: I can understand. So in our household, we alternate between Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. So we compromise. We have a Harry Potter, then a Lord of the Rings, then go through.

Kelly Molson: Is your partner Harry Potter, then?

Joseph Paul: My wife is very much a Harry Potter fan.

Kelly Molson: Interesting. That is quite controversial. How do you feel about that, David?

David Green: Very disappointing. Joe, actually.

Joseph Paul: Sorry to let you down.

David Green: We might have to end this now, Joe.

Kelly Molson: This beautiful relationship that we're going to talk about. End over Harry Potter.

David Green: Harry Potter and cheese straws.

Kelly Molson: David, same question to you. What is your unpopular opinion?

David Green: Didn't think I had any unpopular opinions until I started really thinking about it, but I have to say, my original this is really good either, really was dancing, non professional dancing. I mean, I'm not a dancer, I've got a body of a dad. I am a dad and my wife and my daughter are very good dancers and I think it's just years of standing by a bar at a wedding with that person, go, "Come on, get on the dance floor, come on." And they drag you up and then busting moves is probably the wrong description, but it's just looking around the room on the floor with other people sort of bobbing around awkwardly looking, and all the blokes tipped you looking at each other going, "Oh, get me home." It's that awkwardness, I find really difficult and I'm going to be cheeky. And another one, because I just remembered that concerts is another one, so you spend a fortune going to a concert.

David Green: I took my daughter once to Ariana Grande and I'd just been dragged to Arctic Monkeys and we drove hours and hours to this place and my wife had got Rose lead, I think, which was I needed binoculars to even see the stage. I was absolutely freezing, completely freezing. I didn't dress appropriately, I was dressed in a shirt and tied, typically, because that was Arctic Monkeys.

Kelly Molson: You went through a shirt and tied Arctic Monkeys? God said, "Well".

David Green: I remember walking down to the bottom of the stadium, I'm freezing, I have to go and get some clothes, and they let me out and I had to buy Arctic Monkeys merchandise and I came up the steps wearing an Arctic Monkeys hoodie. Number one fan to my wife and daughter, absolutely laughing hilariously.

David Green: And I had to listen to the music for 2 hours and then I got home about three in the morning and my wife had promised me dinner out, went to Wild Bean Cafe at 01:00 A.M. on the way home.

Kelly Molson: What a treat.

David Green: Dancing and concert. Laura just sneaking next to one in.

Kelly Molson: Well, no, I love this. I mean, it's like an elongation of it, isn't it? They go hand in hand. I would be that person at a wedding, they're trying to get you on the dancefloor. Which made me start laughing and then I lost it. Shirt and tie at an Arctic Monkeys gig. What were you thinking?

David Green: I don't know.

Kelly Molson: I think that's my favourite unpopular opinion yet. Amazing. Thank you both for sharing. Shall we talk about some serious stuff?

David Green: Have you cried on a podcast before?

Kelly Molson: Before I've had a cry, I've definitely had a cry on the podcast, but a cry of laughter, I'm not sure that's really got me today. Right, serious stuff. We're going to talk about data today, which is very serious stuff. We all know the importance of data. We've talked about data hundreds and hundreds of times in various different guyses. On this podcast, however, we're going to talk about reporting today, but with a twist. So reporting is often usually about things that have already happened. We're looking at past visitor numbers, we're looking at how many visitors came and how much they spent in the cafe on a particular day, what the weather was like on a past particular day. So we can predict whether it might be like that this year.

Kelly Molson: But Blenheim are doing something completely different with reporting, which, when we had a chat about it prior to this episode, it blew my mind a little bit. And it's such a brilliant case study. You need to share this with the world. Firstly, though, I want you to just, both of us, tell us a little bit about your role and your background. So, Joe, can you start first? Tell us a little bit about your role and how you came into it.

Joseph Paul: Yeah, of course. So I've been in the industry for six years now within the visitor attraction industry, working at Vennersys, and my role is a Key Account Manager. So I work closely with our clients throughout the lifetime of their contracts, so making sure they are getting the most out of the system and that sort of return on investment they've put into the software they've purchased. So I've worked closely with David and the Blenheim team for about six years now, and prior to that, I was also in account management as well, within a software business.

Kelly Molson: Great. David, over to you.

David Green: Variable history with Blenheim. I think next year will be the 30th year when I first walked through the doors. So when I was studying at college, it was my first sort of part time weekend Christmas job, and I was a bubble up for the 11th Duke and Duchess, and that was great. If I got I know stuff.

Kelly Molson: I feel like there's a podcast episode on its own about that part of your career.

David Green: I'm not sure I could speak too much about that, but I remember when I finished college, my mother said, "What are you going to get a proper job?" And the phone rang and I ended up working at Blenheim. Moved into the clock tower at Blenheim. That was my first flat. It was quite incredible, I have to say. But after leaving when I was 21, I just changed direction. So I became a developer, so I learned to programme and I worked for a little agency in Abingdon for two doctors who were both very bright guys. Yeah, I just put the hours in and learned to programme and really, that probably led to where I am today. I learned very quickly to problem solve and learned very quickly how to develop things.

David Green: So when I finally joined Blenheim again, full time enabled me to sort of trial new things very quickly, fail fast. And that kind of led to our first real time reporting platform, which I developed myself.

Kelly Molson: Amazing.

David Green: This was really a combination of seeing that the business had lots of data and seeing that a lot of the data was inputted in manually. So being able to develop something that could contextualise data in a better way, but get people looking at the data in a much faster way, I think that's where it started from.

Kelly Molson: And that is what we're going to talk about today. You've got a really interesting job title. So you're Head of Innovation at Blenheim Palace. Are there many other heads of innovation in the sector? Because there's lots of kind of I mean, ALVA, for instance, brilliant organisation, they do lots of kind of individual meetups. So heads of marketing meetups, CEO meetups, head of visitor service meetups. I haven't seen them do a Head of Innovation meetup yet, so I question how many of you are there?

David Green: I don't think there's very many at all, but the title is becoming more and more known, I think, across multiple sectors. And it was really the sort of creation I was Head of Digital at Lent for eight or nine years, and it was really the creation of Dominic Hare, our CEO, who saw the need for research development. The role is really about hunting for problems, and as much as we're well known for our visitor business, we have a thriving land business and a thriving real estate business. And I get to work across those three tiers, which is really exciting, hunting for problems. I get to work with universities, so we have a really strong university partnership, both at Oxford Brookes and the Oxford University.

David Green: And this really allows us to bring in the latest research academics into a real world environment to solve problems together. So that's really exciting. But then the sort of second thing I work on as Head of Innovation is live data, so I have a data background, so it meant that very quickly I could bring all of our data into one place to drive greater insight. And then the third tier is looking at sort of customer experience changes. So if anyone sees my post on LinkedIn, you'll see we've brought in a new returnable cup scheme of all of our cups are RFID enabled. So looking at eradicating single use cups right the way through to a transformation project around implementing digital wallets and pulses.

David Green: So there's lots of different things right the way through to encouraging our visas to come by green transport, which is very much tied into our 2027 pledge to become carbon neutral.

Kelly Molson: That's lovely. Yeah. That's really interesting that you sit across so many different facets and it's not just about data and reporting and digital, really. So what we're going to talk about today is a particular project that you've both been involved in, and I'm going to kind of split this into two, because there's two areas that I kind of want to focus on. I want to hear about what the project is and all of the things and benefits that it's brought to Blenheim, which David's going to talk about.

Kelly Molson: And then, Joe, I want to then come over to you and talk about how you kind of made this happen from a supplier perspective and the things that you need to work through together with your client and maybe some of the things that you've had to change and implement to be able to support your client, to do the things that they want to do with your system. So, David, I'm going to start with you. Can you give us kind of an overview of what this project is like, the background to it and then what led to that project happening?

David Green: Background is like many organisations in this sector, we have lots and lots of data. Often we report out of proprietary systems, we then contextualise our data very well and I wanted to bring all the information to one area so we could really apply context but also look at in that data. So this sort of built off our first real time reporting platform that were able to get data into the hands of the operations teams, other teams, really quickly. But it wasn't really supportable just by me here at Blenheim. So were looking at one, finding a platform that we could utilise to allow us to get data out to feedball in a much more secure way. I was handling all the visualisations and things and there's better tools for that. So that's one of the reasons.

David Green: The second thing is looking at data, I wanted to try out using AI to identify patterns. So what's the correlation between certain data sources? There's one, a group of visitors wearing wet coats. Does that have an impact on the environmental conditions? What's the optimal number of people that retail space to maximise their understand all those sorts of things were unanswered questions. So I engaged one of our Oxford Brookes relationships that we already had and we applied for what's called a Knowledge Transfer Partnership. So a KTP, which is match funded, that's Innovate UK match funded, and I highly recommend them as a starting point. And what that does, it brings in an associate who works full time.

David Green: This project was, I think, 32 months, but also you get access to different parts of the university and in our case, we had access to the technical faculty as well as the business faculty. So you've got real experts in the field working with an associate that's embedded here, Lennon, that can help us solve that problem. And we're fortunate enough to win the application and the grant money and then we cloud on. So we called it a Smart Visitor Management System. That's the headline and really the two key subsystems of that was the customer insight and prediction. So we wanted to look at how we could predict business numbers. We know all of the knock on impacts of that in terms of better planning, reducing food waste, all those sorts of things. But then we also want to look at the visitor flow.

David Green: So that's almost saying, "Well, where are visitors right now and where are they going to go next?" But they're the two sort of component parts.

Kelly Molson: Such a brilliant introduction to AI as well, because I think it is such a current topic right now. And I was at a recent ALVA meeting where there was a phenomenal speaker talking about the implications of AI and the opportunities that it could bring. And I think there was a 50 - 50 split of the audience of 50% of them were terrified about this new technology and what it might potentially mean. And then 50% were really inspired by it and see these huge opportunities from it. But I think this is such a brilliant case study to show how it can be used to your advantage in a very non-scary way.

David Green: I think with AI can be scary, but actually it's all about governance at the end of the day. And actually what we're doing is using machine learning to identify the patterns in large data sets to help us be better informed.

Kelly Molson: What have been the benefits of implementing this kind of level of data reporting? So what have you been able to do that you couldn't previously do?

David Green: Well, predictions is one. So ultimately we all budget. The first thing to probably say is that when we do contextual reporting, normally we access our data from a proprietary system and then bring it into some sort of spreadsheet and then try and tie it into a budget. That's sort of the first thing. It's really getting all of your data sets in a early. So we had budget, we had weather, we had advanced bookings, we had ticketing from different sort of platforms. And the starting point, before we talk too much about end benefits, were developing a data strategy in this centralised concept of a DataHub. So all of our data is in one place, and we're using APIs and direct connections and data signature Vennersys to bring data into one place.

David Green: We also looked at platforms, environments, so were looking at Azure, we’re a Microsoft business. So actually we decided Azure was the right sort of plan for us and we came up with a very broad strategy that said anything else we procure in the future has to best in class or it talks to the DataHub and often if it's best in class as an API. So you can get that information into one place. So that's the first thing. The joy of using something like Microsoft and other platforms are available, I would say, is to access the power platform. And the Power platform sort of answered the problem around how do we visualise our data, how do we automate some of our data and what data is missing and how can we collect it?

David Green: So using things like Power BI and PowerApps, I think was really crucial. Once we had all of our sort of data organised, we had the pandemic and of course, one of the sort of big issues around predicting, certainly when you've got lots of data sets, you're trying to look at patterns in data and your data is finely structured, then you get hit by something like this and where are the patterns? What's changed? The business model completely changed. We were a 10% advanced booking business. Suddenly were either zero or 80 or 100 and then sort of now about 65. So that was a bit of a challenge as well. In terms of then looking at the missing data. And we'll talk a little bit maybe about sort of the centre network and how do we measure things in remote places.

David Green: But ultimately the core of this project was the DataHub, the ability to bring everything into one place, ability to push that data out. So answering your question in a long winded way is really about getting the data into hands of people, to allow them to plan better, to be prepared for the day, what is likely to happen today, what are the patterns in that day? And this is where we develop things like a concept of similar day. So a similar day might be one that has similar number of pre bookings, has similar weather. We look at weather in terms of temperature, wind and rain. It might have a similarity in terms of an event day or a weekend or similar budget. And that concept allows us to look forward, which is great. The predictions tend to look at other things.

David Green: So we have one naive prediction that looks at previous performance in terms of pre booking to predict forward. And then another one, we have what we call an adaptive prediction, which allows us to look at advanced bookings and then see the change in advanced bookings over time against budget, to then alert us to the fact that we might experience more visitors than expected on that particular day.

Kelly Molson: Gosh, that's really powerful, isn't it? Does that mean that your team have access to kind of a dashboard that they can look at any given time and be like, “Okay, we can model next week based on these predictions?”

David Green: Data is pretty much everywhere, so we have one really nice thing and we have this. When I built search platform was TV screens across all of our staff areas. We have a ten OD voltwim across Blenheim. Everyone has access to that data. And that could be how traffic is flowing on the driveway. We use ADPR to look at how busy traffic is outside of our park walls. We look at car park capacity. We look at how happy our staff are using what we call a mood metric. So we put those smiley buttons in staff areas to determine how well they think the day is going. So we have access to all of this sort of information, but also then sort of more business reporting through Power BI.

David Green: So we have a series of what I've called sort of visual representations of activity, but also sort of data that we can export into Excel. So we do a lot of finance reporting as well through Power BI. Again, all reporting from that single source of the truth, which is the DataHub. And if anyone's going down this route, I always describe it, I call it the product hierarchy. I always describe it as the giant coin sorting machine, which means that we're comparing apples with apples. So if you've got a particular product type, let's say annual park or House park and gardens, or park and gardens, you budget against that item, against adult, child, concession, family, young adult, whatever, you create a product hierarchy that matches that to your actual ticketing sales.

David Green: And it doesn't matter then who sells your ticket, you're matching to that same product hierarchy. So think of it as a giant column sourcing machine that then every five minutes builds that single source of the truth in a database, then can be report out either through digital screens locations or Power BI. So, lots of tunes.

Kelly Molson: It's incredible that level of access that you can give people now that must have improved how the team feel about their working day. It must have really helped with kind of like team culture and team morale.

David Green: Absolutely. One, it's about engaging. Our teams are really important. People are the most important commodity we have at Blenheim. So having a series of management accounts, they never see their impact of engaging our businesses and giving our business a really good time, focusing on that Net Promoter Score, giving them access to that information. So, well done, look at the impact is really important. So, yeah, it's been fairly transformational here at Blenheim.

Kelly Molson: Wow. What do you think has been the biggest impact?

David Green: I think access to the data, better planning, there's more to do. We're embedding these tools, people that trust these tools. It's no mean feat. So getting good. What's nice to see when things aren't coming through quite right or car park speeds and we say it is, it might be data pipeline that's got awry. People very quickly come to us and say, "It's missing." So, seven days a week our team is sort of monitoring and seeing people use it. Moodmetric is great. Our cleaners now, they clean our facilities based on usage because they can see how many people have used the loo’s by using our sensor data. So that's again, it all impacts that Net Promoter Score. And I will say on Net Promoter, love it or hate it, Net Promoter Score is all about looking backwards.

David Green: Typically what we try to do is to create the equivalent to on the day. What can we do about it right now? How busy is traffic flowing on a drive? Do we need to open another kiosk? How busy will the cafe get? Will we run out sandwiches? So we've got alerting looking at that comparison to similar day and are we trading above or below that? So again, we can send an alert to say, “Make some more sandwiches or do something else. The loos need a clean.” All of these sorts of things are built into the visitor management system to allow us to really optimise not just the visitor experience, but our staff engagement and experience as well.

Kelly Molson: So you've got this really proactive approach to it, which actually makes you reactive on the day because you can move quicker, because you can make easier decisions about things. That's phenomenal. I love that the team have taken real ownership of that as well. I think embedding something like this, it can be quite challenging, right. People don't like change and these things feel a bit scary, but it feels like your team have really engaged with them and taken ownership of the system.

David Green: Absolutely. It's no mean feat. Two challenges embedding something new like this. Absolutely. That's change management. The second thing is data pipelines, ensuring all of your sensors and everything is online and working. And when you're dealing with such high volume of data sets coming in, you really need to be absolutely on it. Second to the sort of broader and maybe more granular reporting, one other thing we've devised is a series of KPIs, which pretty much any attraction.

David Green: Most might already have a series of KPIs, but KPIs to look forward. So actually in this moment in time, are we trading ahead or behind versus this time last year? So if you start comparing apples with apples at this moment in time, what was RMR's booking? We share these KPIs across the whole site and that could be relation to bookings or even spend per head versus budget spend per head for the next 30 days.

David Green: Visually, we put these on all of our digital screens very quickly can identify when we need to do something, be driving that by marketing activity or celebrating success. We've got a very clear picture and that means everyone's along for the ride. Everyone gets access to this information.

Kelly Molson: That's absolutely phenomenal. Joe, I'm going to come over to you now because I can only imagine what you were thinking when David came to you and said, "Right, we've got this idea, this is what we want to do." And you're one of the platforms. Vennersys is one of the platforms that has been working with him. I think it's quite a long relationship. Is it? It's about 16 years.

Joseph Paul: 16, 17 years now, I think. Long relationship.

David Green: Yeah. I was five. How old were you?

Joseph Paul: Wasn't conceived yet.

Kelly Molson: Wowzers. That is a long relationship. Okay, so I kind of want to know from you, Joe, to make this happen, what have you had to do differently as a supplier? So how have you had to interact with your clients’ needs and what steps did you have to go to kind of understand what the outcome was going to be?

Joseph Paul: Yeah, so I think firstly that the system has an enormous amount of data in it and I think the first step for us was to understand exactly what Blenheim were looking to get out of the system and plug into the sort of the DataHub that David was talking about. So that kind of comprised of some initial conversations of what they were trying to achieve. And then following that it was all about workshopping and making sure were going to present the data in the format that David and the team at Blenheim Palace required.

Joseph Paul: Yeah, I think fundamentally it was just working closely with the team there and getting those requirements in detail and making sure weren't missing anything and really understanding everything they were trying to achieve and pushing that in a simple and easy format for the team to then push into their views and into their KPIs that they required. Really the main focus for us was pushing that data out to David and the team into that DataHub in that format that was easily accessible and sort of manipulated for them.

Kelly Molson: I guess there's so much it's understanding what are the key know, what are the variables here, what are the key points that we need to do this and how do we go about doing this for you?

Joseph Paul: Absolutely. Because there's a number of options and a number of different ways that data can be pushed to clients. So it's understanding what the best is for that client and their resource because that's also important. Not every attraction has unlimited resource or the expertise in house to sort of obtain that data, but also, even if they can obtain that data, they might not have that sort of resource to then create their own dashboards and create their own reporting tools from a repository. So it's really understanding every kind of asset and every level to that sort of client and then working closely with them to achieve their goal. So it might be more resource from our side or working closely with the expertise that they might have in house.

Kelly Molson: Or suggesting that they might need to get extra expertise. So this is something that we talk about in terms of API integration all the time, is that it absolutely can be done with any of the systems that you have. If they have an API, yes, you can integrate it into whatever other system that you want. But who takes ownership of that internally? And do they have the capability and do they have the resource and do they have the capacity to do that? And if that's a no, who can be trained to do those things? And how do we facilitate that as well?

Joseph Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And in this case, as David highlighted, he's clearly got the expertise himself and others around him to produce all these fantastic sort of views and dashboards that are displayed all around Blenheim Palace. So in this sort of example with Blenheim Palace, it was all about getting the data to them and making sure it was in a format that they could work with easily.

Kelly Molson: And you've worked together, Joe, you said about six years. You've been at Vennersys now, but the organisation has worked with Blenheim for over 16 years, which is testament to the relationship and the product that you have. Has this process that you've been through together, has this changed or strengthened the kind of relationship between supplier and client?

Joseph Paul: Yes, I think from our point of view, we like to see it as a partnership. I think David would agree, and we want to be a part of their journey, but also Blenheim and want to be a part of our journey. So we're helping one another to achieve our individual goals as a partnership. So that relationship goes from strength to strength and we continue to have those conversations, whether that's myself or others within the business, to Blenheim and pass around things that we're coming up against in the industry, but also vice versa. So if David's got his ear to the ground and has a suggestion around how our platform could be improved, that's fed back to us.

Joseph Paul: And we have that back and forth between client and supplier, but we like to see it as a partnership and work closely with them to achieve their goals and also our goals together.

David Green: I don't want to make Joe cry, because I've already made you cry, Kelly, but seriously, over that course of 17 years, and I'm sure lots of people listening to this podcast will realise that it's always challenging working with other suppliers. You have your ups and you have your downs, but we've had way more ups than we've had downs and our business has changed massively. We went through a process of becoming a charity, so suddenly gifted all the admissions was really important and Joe and the team really helped us achieve that.

David Green: Vanbrugh was not a very good forward planner in terms of he was a great architect, but actually, we have a single point of entry and to try and gift aid so many visitors, we have a million visitors a year coming to them to try and gift aid such a large number on a driveway is really difficult. So actually, working through that gift aid at the gate process, we're looking at that gift aid opportunity was one of the key projects, really, that we work with Vennersys on.

Kelly Molson: But that's where the good things come out of client supplier relationships, is that you're both challenging each other on what the objectives are and what the outcomes potentially could be. So you work in partnership together and then everybody gets the better outcome. When we first spoke about this topic, what I thought was brilliant is that you have such a great case study, you have such a great showcase piece here, both of you, for how you've worked together and what you've been able to develop. I've absolutely said that you need to pitch this as a talk at the Museum and Heritage Show because I think it's an absolutely brilliant topic for it. It's so current and something that other organisations can go away and kind of model on.

Kelly Molson: I don't know if you saw, we had Nik Wyness on from the Tank Museum last season who came on and basically just he gives away his kind of process as to how they've developed their YouTube following and how they've developed kind of a sales strategy from it. And it's brilliant. He's great at kind of coming on and going, "Yeah, this is what I did, and this is what we did, and this is the process and here you go. Go and do it." And I think you have an opportunity to do that together, which I think is lovely.

David Green: Isn't it nice though, that we don't feel in competition and we can work together? We created what we call The Continually Improvement and Innovation Group which we have lots of members who have joined from all different places, from Chatsworth to Be Lee to Hatfield Outs and so on and all that is a slack channel. It's a six monthly meeting where we all come together and we discuss our challenges. You talked about are there many head of innovations? Well, may not be, but actually sharing our insights and sharing our lessons learned is incredibly important and that's not just Blenheim, lots of other attractions are doing lots of brilliant things as well and we can learn from them. So really exciting, I think, to do that.

David Green: And again, very open, I will say, and I'm not going to plug a gift aid company, but there's something called Swift Aid that we're just looking at and wow, can we do retrospective gift aiding? Is it worth lots of money for lots of attractions that have gift aid on their admissions? Yes, it is well worth looking that up. Ultimately they have a database of 8 million centralised gift aid declarations that you can utilise there's commission but it's well worth looking at. If anyone wants information, please just LinkedIn with me and we'll discuss them.

Kelly Molson: Oh, I love that. Again, this comes back to what we've always said about how collaborative and open to sharing information this sector is. What we'll do is in the show notes listeners, we will link to both David and Joe's LinkedIn profiles. If you want to connect with them, feel free and then actually David, Joe, if there's anything you want to share that we can add into those as well that would be useful for listeners. Then we'll pop them in there as.

Kelly Molson: Actually, David, I've got one more question for you on that Slack channel, which I think is really interesting. It's great that you've set that up. I think those kind of platforms are really good at just facilitating conversation and it's really good to understand what people are doing from a supplier perspective. Do you have suppliers as part of that conversation as well, or is it purely attractions?

David Green: I've kept it, I'd say non commercial, but we have invited speakers into the group to come and talk about it. But at the moment it's a closed environment. I think most people are more comfortable having sort of open conversations, but what it's really good at doing is it could be a question about compliance or sustainability or returnable cuts is a good one. It could be varying topics and we can just provide access to the right people here at Blenheim and vice versa, and other organisations if we've got questions. So, yeah, it works, it's growing, it's open, it's not ours, it's everyone's. So if anyone wants to join it, then we'll stick a link at LinkedIn maybe on the plot cups at the end of this.

Kelly Molson: Oh, Fab, that's brilliant. Yeah, great. I think that's a really nice way of doing it with suppliers as well. It's difficult, I think Joe and I would probably say all of these conversations are really interesting for us because it helps us understand the challenges that the sector has and it helps us understand how we can make the things that we do so much better. So it's hard sometimes when there's closed environments like that, but the sector does so brilliantly at putting on conferences and organisations that we can all be part of as well. And again, platforms like this where we can come on and share the things that we're doing.

Kelly Molson: That brings me back to the last question for you, Joe, is about has this process between the two of you and what you've been able to build together, has that helped Vennersys as a supplier build out other services that you can then offer to kind of the wider sector?

Joseph Paul: Yeah, so I think through this journey we've realised that data is really critical, but we also realised, as we kind of mentioned before, that not everyone has the resource to build their own visualisations of data and linking those to their sort of key performance indicators. So we work with Power BI as well on behalf of our clients, so we can also visualise that data that's within our systems. And that's really to help them get the most out of the data that is in our system, but also in that sort of more real time scenario, rather than having to extract a report, put it that into an Excel and get that information out.

Joseph Paul: So that's one service that's kind of come out of that relationship, but also expanding on our sort of open API as well. So additional endpoints so that clients can also extract that data in real time and that continues to grow with other clients as well as we sort of go down that journey with some other clients. So, absolutely. It's helped us sort of open up another avenue which has benefited other clients in the past couple of years, but also moving forward as we sort of expand on it.

Kelly Molson: Brilliant. And that's the sign of true partnership, isn't it? There's been some incredible wins for both of you involved and it's brought new opportunities to both of the organisations. Thank you both for coming on and sharing this today. So we always end the podcast with book recommendations from our guests. So I wondered if you've both been able to pick a book that you'd like to share with our listeners today. What have you got for us? Joe, we'll start with you.

Joseph Paul: Mine's a little bit out there.

David Green: We know it's not Harry Potter, Joe.

Kelly Molson: Absolutely not.

Joseph Paul: Well, that would be a curveball if I started to plug the Harry Potter series. Hey. So recently, I was in Albania in Tirana and I was on a guided tour. And they were talking about the Ottoman period. And I realised I know nothing about the Ottoman history and I was interested about it more.

Joseph Paul: So my in laws purchased a book called Lord Of The Horizons, which is all about the history of the Ottoman empire. So that's my current read at the moment. And if you're into your history and into your sort of empires, it's definitely worth a read. So that's my recommendation. The Lord of Horizons.

Kelly Molson: Nice. Joe, we just got a little insight into some of your hobbies there and your likes that we didn't know about. Good. Okay. Thank you. David, what about you?

David Green: Mine is The Hidden Life of Trees by Peter Wallaban. It's an incredible book. Now, I read lots of strategy books, data books. My wife thinks I'm really sad. This book is not any of that. This is about how trees communicate and I was absolutely enthralled with it. So this talks about them like arousal networks, how trees communicate through their roots, the noises and the sounds that trees make when they're struggling, when they're thirsty. It led to a lot of laughter on holiday with my daughter drawing pictures of trees with ears, but trees can actually hear. And from that, I was able to come back and look at one of our land projects where we're building a small solar farm at the moment, actually looking at the sort of benefits to soil health while we're putting solar on sort of fed degraded farmland.

David Green: So we're using something called soil ecoacoustics that will allow us to listen to the sound of soil. So listen to soil for ultimately to index how healthy that soil is. So this one book has led to me reading a number of different research papers, cooking up with the universities to then test and trial something completely brilliant around identifying health through acoustics. So book is absolutely brilliant. There's a follow on book, but if you look at Peter Wallabin, he's written a number of books. Absolutely fascinating.

Kelly Molson: Okay, wow. One, what an incredible book. I had no idea that trees could hear or talk. That's blown my mind a little bit, especially as someone who's a bit of a tree hugger. I'm not going to lie, I made a statement. I was with a client yesterday and were talking about AI. And I said, sometimes the conversations around AI just make me want to go outside and hug the tree in my back garden, take my shoes and socks off and just put my feet on the grass because I just want to connect with nature again and just get out of a tech world. So there's that. So I'm definitely going to buy that book. But two, how your mind works as well, how that book has taken you on a journey of innovation again into something connected but completely different.

David Green: Again, it's really data. So you're welcome. We'll happily show you that site and put some headphones on you and we'll make this public as well, so hopefully we can share the secret sound of soil and other things as well. But really fascinating.

Kelly Molson: That to me sounds like a David Attenborough show. Maybe we'll make it another podcast episode at some point. I'd love that. Thank you both for coming on and sharing today. As ever, if you want to win a copy of Joe and David's books, go over to our Twitter account, retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Joe and David's books and you'll be in with a chance of winning them. Wow. Thank you for sharing. It's been an absolutely insightful podcast. There's lots of things that we're going to put in the show notes for you all. And as Joe and David said, please do. If you've got questions around what they've talked about today, feel free to connect and we'll pop a link to that Slack group in the show notes too, so you can join in with these conversations. Thank you both.

David Green: Thank you.

Joseph Paul: Thanks, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

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enDecember 20, 2023

Personalisation for visitor attraction websites, with Kelly and Paul from Rubber Cheese

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Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics. In this episode, we're discussing personalisation and what attractions can do to make their websites feel more tailored to their audience.

You can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Hello, hello. Welcome back to the podcast.

Paul Marden: Hello again. Good, isn't it? Back here for a third time.

Kelly Molson: It is good. You're lucky. Right, let's start the podcast as we do with this one. What attraction have you visited most recently and what did you love about it?

Paul Marden: Yeah, I was pretty lucky the other day because I went to the National Maritime Museum, because I'm a Trustee of Kids in Museums and we had our Family Friendly Museum Awards and we held it in their lecture theatre at the Maritime Museum up in Greenwich. And I'd been to the Greenwich Museums before. I'd been to the top of the hill where the observatory is, but I've never been to the bottom of the hill, which is where Maritime Museum is. And so I'm just there with all the great and good of all of the museums around the country that have been shortlisted for the awards, which was brilliant.

Paul Marden: But the bit that I really loved was that I was there in the daytime during the midweek, so peak school trip season, and it was just amazing to be in this place with all these school kids there doing their school trips, which is something I'm really passionate about, the value of those school trips. It was something that really got the kids lost out on when COVID hit and everybody was working online and then they went back to schools, but the schools had to be really careful about what they did and there were no school trips. That's such a magical part of being in primary school that they were just robbed of. So seeing all those kids in that amazing place was just wonderful. I got to rub shoulders with the great and the good.

Paul Marden: I met some Skip the Queue alumni at the event as well, and I had a lovely cup of tea and a piece of cake in the cafe with our Project Manager, Becs. Did you imagine a better day?

Kelly Molson: No, it's a perfect day. I was just thinking as you were talking about the school trips, it's like a rite of passage at school, isn't it, to be walking around a museum with a clipboard to draw a picture of it? Go and find X and draw a picture of it. I just got really vivid memories of doing that .

Paul Marden: They were all just herring around, doing exactly that and loving life and buying their little rubbers in the shop and things like that.

Kelly Molson: You should collect rubbers, kids. All the cool people do. Okay, I need to give a big shout out to National Trust. We are really lucky where we live. So we've got like a triangle of National Trust venues near us. So we've got Wimpole, Ickworth and Anglesey Abbey, all within like 25 minutes, half an hour, a little bit longer for Ickworth. Each one of them is incredible. They all have a different adventure. They've got great play areas, beautiful historic houses and beautiful walks. And we have spent a lot of time in the last two years at National Trust venues, walking, pushing the pram. But now Edie's toddling around, we're into the activity areas and all of them are phenomenal. Wimpole has just redone their outdoor play area, which we're yet to visit.

Kelly Molson: We're just waiting for a dry day to get back over to that one. But it's just the membership. So I think the membership is such superb value for money.

Paul Marden: It really is.

Kelly Molson: I cannot speak more highly of it. It is such good value for money and we get 45678 times the amount of value from it every single year we have this membership, so much so that we gift it to people as well.

Kelly Molson: We were really lucky. We got given some money for a wedding gift and we said, rather than think when people give you money, it's lovely, but you can put it in the bank and you forget about it. Or it just gets spent on stuff. And were like, “Right, if we get given money, we'll spend it on a thing and we can say we bought this thing with it.” And so that we bought the National Trust membership with it.

Paul Marden: That's a cracking idea.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it was really good. Really good idea. But then it's such good value that we've then bought membership for my parents.

Paul Marden: Really?

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So I think it was like a joint. I think Father's Day and my mum's birthday are quite close together, so it might have been a joint one for that. They go and they go on their own and then they go and then they take Edie as well. And it's absolutely brilliant. So, yeah, well done, National Trust. Well done, Wimpole. Especially because pigs. Someone, the tiny person in my house, is very happy about pigs there. I don't mean myself, I mean Edie. And also, I just want to give a big shout out to one of the volunteers. I'm really sorry I didn't get the volunteer's name at Wimpole. He is one of the volunteers in the farm.

Kelly Molson: I am a little bit frightened of horses. I think they're beautiful but really big. I saw an old next to the neighbour get kicked by a horse once.

Paul Marden: You've literally been scarred for life.

Kelly Molson: There's a block up there, but I'm a little bit frightened of horses. And there's a huge Shire horse at Wimpole who's a big old gentle giant. I think he's called Jack. But I am a bit frightened and I don't want that fear to rub off on Edie. And so I very bravely took Edie over to meet the Shire horse. But the volunteer was wonderful. This guy know told us loads of stuff about the horse and he was really great with Edie and she managed to stroke his nose and even I managed to stroke Jack's nose. So, yeah, thank you man whose name I didn't get. It was a really lovely experience and you helped put me at ease and my daughter at ease. So there you go. National Trust and the value of volunteers.

Paul Marden: And National Trust volunteers, we've talked about this before. I've been to a couple that are local to me and they just tell the most amazing stories and they engage people in a way that to be so passionate about the thing that you care about and that you want to do that for free to help people to enjoy their experience is just amazing. And there are some, I mean, there are diamonds all over the place in all the museums and places that we visit, but there's plenty of them. When you work that Natural Trust membership, you get to meet a lot of volunteers, don't you? And they are amazing.

Kelly Molson: Working it hard. Okay, let's get on to what we're going to discuss today. So we are talking about personalisation and what attractions can do to make their websites feel more personal. So this is an interesting one and I think that we've probably got to put our hands up and make a bit of an apology here. Very few people who took part in the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Survey actually implement personalisation, but there's a lot of evidence that personalisation improves conversion rates. So there's some stats that I want to read out from the report. Only 6% of respondents personalised their website experience for customers, yet 85% of respondents thought personalisation was highly important. So, question for you, why do you think so many people think it's important, but so few are actually implementing it?

Paul Marden: This is where we hold our hands up, isn't it? And we say, I think the answer to that is because we didn't ask the question properly. I've touched base with it. There was a very small set of people, as you say, 6% of people said that they were personalising their websites. But the language that we used in the question was a little bit confusing. And when I reached out to a handful of that 6%, they were like, "Oh, no, that's not what we thought you meant. What we thought you meant was that". So one person said to me, "You could personalise your experience at the venue by buying different things, not personalise the website experience." Yeah. And when you read the language of the question again with that answer in your head, it's obvious why they answered it in the way that they did.

Paul Marden: So there's a lesson to be learned there about trialing the questionnaire, making sure that people understand what it is that we're saying and that we agree with the language of what we've used. The fact is, I think a lot of people didn't understand us. So the answers that we got back, the disparity, is clearly confusion based. But even if weren't confused, even if we had the data, my instinct is that there would be a big difference between the two. And that boils down to the fact that I think that personalisation is hard to do and that actually the reason why a lot of people aren't doing it is because it's hard and costly in some cases. But we need to get into the guts of that and understand why.

Kelly Molson: Okay, so lesson learned for next year. We need to give more clarity over the questions that we ask. So thanks for the feedback, everybody. We will do that. What do we actually mean by personalisation then?

Paul Marden: Yeah, that's a good question. I think that what we mean by personalisation is developing the website in a way that means that you show different contents to different audience members depending on different things. There's lots of different ways in which you can do that. There's a very simple perspective which is around not automatically showing different content to different people, but writing content for your different audiences and making that easily discoverable. It doesn't have to be technically complex.

Paul Marden: Yeah. It's really about writing the right content for the right people and making it so that they can get from where they are to where they want to get to and get that right answer. Most of us do that intuitively. Most of us, when we're writing content as marketers, we do personalise the content to the end audience, even if we're not doing that in an automated way.

Kelly Molson: I think with this, though, my interpretation of it is the next level onto that, which is, that's true personalisation, because I think those things, yes, that's a very simple way of looking at it, but that for me is not enough when it comes to how we answer this question. So it's the tracking behaviour and showing personal content that to me truly personalises an experience. I can think of things that we've done in the past in terms of tracking where someone tracking the IP of the person that's looking at the website and offering them up content that is in English, UK English or in American English for example.

Paul Marden: Absolutely. So it could be about time of day, it’s trite. I'm not going to convert somebody but saying good morning, good afternoon, good evening, based on where they are. We did another site a few years ago which showed videos of an experience in the daytime or an experience at nighttime, depending on when you were looking at the website, and then you could switch in between them, which was pretty cool.

Kelly Molson: I like that.

Paul Marden: Yeah. So you could do time of day, you could do location, like you say, interesting is understanding, building an understanding of somebody fitting an audience profile based on what they've looked at across the site, which gets a little bit creepy, doesn't it? If you're tracking and you use that tracking information without lots of care, you could look really creepy. But if you use it really carefully, then you can adapt the content of the site based on the more that somebody looks at the Schools section of your website and they look at news articles that are related to schools, maybe they're a teacher or maybe they're interested in running a school trip to your venue and you can adapt the recommendations that you make to them based on that understanding, that they show more interest in the educational aspects of what you're doing.

Kelly Molson: So this leads us to really to what some of the benefits are. And ultimately, I think the more personalised the site is, the easier it gets for users to meet their needs. You're kind of getting them from the start to their goal quicker and hopefully makes their lives easier as well.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So I found some data. No, as you know, this came out of the report. Actually 80% of consumers. This was a stat that we pulled out in the report.

Kelly Molson: It's from Hubspot.

Paul Marden: Yeah. 80% of consumers are more likely to make a purchase from brands that offer a personalised experience. So from that perspective, personalised sites are more likely to convert. There was other stats that we didn't put into the report itself, Boston Consulting Group, found that brands that create personalised experiences, combining digital with customer data, so that the true personalisation you were talking about, increased revenue by 6% to 10%. That's pretty impressive.

Kelly Molson: It is pretty impressive. But then that brings us to risk, doesn't it? And that kind of creepy aspect of this and whether it's. Is it okay, hon?

Paul Marden: Yeah, I mean, the obvious one is privacy isn't know. We live in an age where people value their privacy and there's laws around that as well. So in the UK we've got GDPR, there are laws all over the world in relation to personal information and tracking somebody's behaviour around your site, what they do and what they look at and being able to associate that back to an individual themselves is definitely data that would be in the scope of the Data Protection Act in the UK and GDPR across Europe. So you have to be really careful about what data you're collecting, how you attribute it back to a natural human, and then what do you do to protect that data?

Kelly Molson: And then you've got complexity of managing multiple sites, managing large volumes and multiple sources of data on top of that as well.

Paul Marden: I alluded to that earlier on as my kind of. The reason why I think a lot of people don't do this is when you get into the true personalisation, when you're managing a website, there's a lot of content on there, you've got to think about what everybody needs. You got lots of people in the organisation wanting their content put onto the website. You're the editor and you're responsible for that thing. And then somebody says to you, "I think it's a bright idea. We've got twelve audiences and we want to have personalised content for all of those audiences.". And now you don't have one website to manage, you've got twelve websites to manage.

Paul Marden: And when it goes wrong for one particular person, when the CEO is looking at the website and it shows them something really weird and they report it to the editor and the editor is like, “Yeah, how do I know what it was that went wrong? Because I don't have one website. I've got twelve websites that I've got to manage.” The level of complexity and the effort that you go into this, if you're not careful, if you're not doing this in a sensible way, it can become quite hard to manage and get your head around.

Kelly Molson: I'm just thinking of the horror of trying to support that from an agency perspective as well. When you've got support tickets coming in and the support ticket from the client is. So this person is not happy because they've seen content that isn't okay for them or oh God.

Paul Marden: Yeah, if not managed properly, you got this potential explosion of content. You've also got the potential for all of that personal data about the people that are going around the website to be trapped. So now you've got to manage a load of data in volumes that you'd never really thought of before. Where does the customer data come from? If you've got, do we want to show personalised information for people that are members? Where do we hold our membership information? Do we hold that in a CRM system? Okay, so now we need to plumb the CRM system into the website so the website knows if the visitor is a member or not. Do we show different information to somebody that is not a member but they have visited before or how do we know that?

Paul Marden: Oh, we need to plumb in data from the ticketing system now. And this can be amazing. And that's how you arrive at that high conversion rate, is that you've enriched the experience with loads of knowledge about the person. It's not like somebody's walking into the gates of the place and you know nothing about them. All of a sudden they're walking into your website, they're interacting with your website and they're not just the same as everyone else, they're special and everybody wants to be special, but to get them to that special place you have to know a lot about them. It can be amazing when it's done well, but it's not trivial.

Kelly Molson: So we always at this point, talk about who is doing it well. And this is a really difficult one. Tricky one, because ultimately we haven't asked the question properly in the survey. And because of the nature of personalisation, we don't know who's doing it. We don't know really. So what would be great is if you are an attraction, listening to this episode and you're out there and you are doing it well, we'd really love to talk to you. So we have these little slots that we have between Paul and I. We've got a load of things that we can talk about, but if there's an attraction out there that is doing personalisation really well, we can open up one of these slots for you to come on and have a chat with us and just talk about some of the things that you're doing.

Kelly Molson: We'd love to hear some really good success stories for this and some case studies. So yeah, feel free to drop me an email and kelly@rubbercheese.com and let me know. So skipping over the fact that we've got no one to talk about who does it well. Hopefully we will soon. What are the steps that people can take? So what's the starting point? If you are thinking about personalisation, what does that journey look like?

Paul Marden: Yeah, first of all, you need to understand the audience, don't you? Or the audience is. And just talking from our own perspective and our process that we follow, that's an early part of the kind of research that we do when we're building a new site is to dig into who the audience is and trying to understand them in as many ways as you possibly can. There's loads of stuff written about this online. There's some brilliant examples that I've looked at before far TfL, who share their audience personas and how much detail they've gone into understanding who the different people are that interact with the TfL website and what their goals are and what makes them special from the perspective of an attraction. You could think of families with young kids that are coming.

Paul Marden: You could be thinking of maybe if you were a museum, the people that are running school trips, the teachers and so forth, that could be running it. Maybe the volunteers for your organisation or another audience member that you need to think about and understand who they are, what they look like in terms of their demographic information, the way they think and what they do and how they interact with the world, markers that you could use to be able to help target that. So figuring out that audience persona for each of the people that you want to target, I think, is a crucial job.

Kelly Molson: Definitely the starting point. And sometimes that's done internally and sometimes we support with that externally. I think then you have to kind of think about the tools that you've got, what is available to you and how you can use them. And we focus on three main ones at Rubber Cheese, don't we?

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we focus on WordPress, Umbraco and HubSpot. And it's interesting because each of them have different functionalities in terms of personalisation. And it's been weird, isn't it, to try and think about the tool before you think about what you want to do, but really it's about not trying to put the cart before the horse. If you know what the tool can do, then you can figure out how you can use it.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, and I think from a cost perspective as well, it's thinking about what you already have in place that you can manipulate rather than starting from scratch.

Paul Marden: HubSpot is a good one to talk about because straight out of the box it's the most capable in terms of personalisation. And it's a bit obscure because a lot of people think of HubSpot as being a CRM package. They don't think of it as being a content management system website tool, but it has that functionality and that's kind of evolved over the last five years into a fully formed content management system.

Paul Marden: But because you've got this bolted together CRM and content management system, they've obviously spotted that an opportunity for them and they've put those two things together. And so straight out of the box you can build out personalisation, you can create these what they call smart rules. To say in this section, I want to show this content dependent on this particular factor. So that's pretty awesome to get that straight out of the box I think.

Kelly Molson: I struggle to get my head around that just because I do view HubSpot as our CRM. I'm in it constantly. It's my source of truth for all of my clients and networking contacts and suppliers. It's where my sales pipeline is. I can't get my head around it. It's a content management system as well.

Paul Marden: Completely. But you can think of, when you're building out a website and it doesn't have to be built out in HubSpot itself. Sorry. In HubSpot's own content management system you can still do a lot of this using their CRM system bolted onto other content management systems. But you can create contacts as somebody becomes a real person. Then you could create that contact inside HubSpot and use the knowledge about that person on the website. You can use the deal functionality inside HubSpot to track when somebody has bought tickets for a place and when they've actually completed the deal. You end up with lots and lots of data going through HubSpot when you do all of that order information going through there.

Paul Marden: But that's how you enrich it with the ability to target your existing customers with different content to prospective customers that have never bought from you before.

Kelly Molson: What about Umbraco and WordPress? Because this is not something that they do like out of the box. Is it off the shelf?

Paul Marden: No, absolutely. So Umbraco doesn't have it straight out of the box. There is a really capable personalisation system called uMarketingSuite which you can buy. It's like annual subscription product that bolts into Umbraco itself. It's been built so that when you're in there and managing all of your audience personas and the content that you want to adapt, it's all in that one package. So once you've got it in there, it does feel like it's all Umbraco because it's been designed in a really neat way. The challenge is you've got to buy it. It's a paid for add on, but the benefit that you get is well worth the investment. But it's not a cheap investment to make in that tooling. And also there's elements of the site needs to be built with that in mind.

Kelly Molson: You can't just plug it on at the end and hope for the best. You've got to think about that long.

Paul Marden: No, it's not a plug it on. You can retrospectively add it into a site. Yeah, but it will probably cost you more to add it afterwards than if you'd have thought about it at the beginning and done it. So it definitely can be added on later on. But if you think about it in advance and you do it all at the same time, the total cost of the project will probably be lower.

Kelly Molson: Okay, so that's a good one to think about. If you are planning new website projects for the new year, you are really happy with the Umbraco platform. There's something to have a conversation around that. And then WordPress plugins.

Paul Marden: Exactly. So as with everything WordPress related, hundreds of people have solved this problem. So there are lots and lots of plugins out there. There's a couple that I would mention that came up when I was doing some research around this. There's one called if so dynamic content. There's one called Logic Hop, both of which enable you to adapt your content based on certain rules that you define. So, pretty much like the smart rule functionality that's in HubSpot, you can achieve that natively inside WordPress once you add these plugins. And the cost of those plugins was negligible. Yeah, you're talking under 100 quid for a year worth of setting that up.

Kelly Molson: Well, that's good to know. So what are we talking about in terms of budgets for stuff then? So there's effort involved in understanding your audiences first. So that's going to be something that you talk to your agency or you bring in an external or you do internally. You carry out your persona work, you really understand who your audience is. That cost is really variable. It could be workshop based. You might have all of this information internally anyway that you just kind of need the time to pull it all together.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And you can imagine that could be a day's effort to just pull together a few things that already exist. It could be several weeks worth of effort spread over a longer period of time. I was having a chat with Matt, our Creative Director, about this the other day and literally just scribbled on a piece of paper. But he was like, “Paul, you need to understand this.” At the one end of the spectrum you could spend a little time researching this stuff. At the other end of the spectrum you could spend a lot of time. And what do you get when you go in between the two? You make less assumptions the further down the road you go. So if you can deal with kind of a minimal research and making some broad assumptions, then that's a sensible thing to do.

Paul Marden: But if you want the confidence of knowing that you're not making too many assumptions and there's lots of data underlying the things that you're saying, then obviously you need to invest more effort into that research to be able to find that out. Yeah, kind of obvious, but it helped when you drew me that kind of framer.

Kelly Molson: So let's look at the tools then. So let's do HubSpot. We talked about HubSpot first. What's the cost involved in that? Because my assumption, I mean, I've used the free version of HubSpot for years. There's a paid version of HubSpot. My assumption was the paid version of HubSpot was really expensive.

Paul Marden: So costing HubSpot is a complex thing because there's lots of different variables involved. There's lots of features. The more features you add, the more it costs. But in order to do this personalisation you need a pro version of their content management system and you're looking at about 350 quid a month to be able to do that. So what's that, about four and a half, 5000 pounds a year to buy that in? That is not just for that feature, that is for the whole of that HubSpot content management system and all of its hosting included as well. And it is top grade, highly secure or highly available infrastructure that you get bolted in that. So the cost of personalisation is not just the 350 quid a month, that is, the all in to get that pro package is 350 quid a month.

Kelly Molson: And then there'll be dev costs on top of that to implement it.

Paul Marden: Yeah, to a certain extent, actually a lot of the personalisation, because it's core to HubSpot, you can achieve a lot in a normally designed and built HubSpot site and then just manage the content in that. So let's say, you've got a panel where you want to show a particular piece of content that says, "Hey, you're back again." Because you're a returning user, you wouldn't necessarily need a developer to be able to make that available to you. Those smart rules would be built in by the content management system. So there's obviously going to be things that you want to do that. You will need to have a developer to be able to do that.

Kelly Molson: You need someone that understands logic. This is not a job for me.

Paul Marden: Well, in the right hands, you don't need a developer to be able to do a lot of the personalisation in HubSpot.

Kelly Molson: All right, what about Umbraco?

Paul Marden: Yeah, there are some free tools. There's something called personalisation groups. But if you want to go for uMarketingSuite, which I think is where you're getting into, really see it would be a proper personalisation territory with lots of great functionality, you're looking at about 400 quid a month for the package to be added into your Umbraco instance. So that's not comparing apples with apples when we look at the HubSpot cost, because that was an all in cost for the whole of the platform for HubSpot. Whereas for Umbraco uMarketingSuite is 400 quid a month to add it to your instance. And that depends on the amount of traffic on your site that does vary.

Kelly Molson: And then WordPress is cheapest chips in comparison. So plugins, you're looking at costs of around about 150 pounds per year depending on what one you go to. Obviously you've either got somebody internally that can integrate that for you or you've got your dev costs on top of that. But if you've already got an existing website in WordPress, then actually could be something relatively inexpensive that you could start to try out.

Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And then on top of that you've got other personalisation systems that you could plug into any of these systems with your kind of Lamborghini style sets of functionality. These are starting costs for the packages we're talking about. Yeah, we're talking 150 quid a year for WordPress, but that would be basic personalisation.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Okay, good chat. So just to reiterate what we said earlier, sorry, we were idiots about the question and of course some confusion. Apologies, we'll do much better next time. But now you've listened to this episode, if you do have a story to share and you are doing some really interesting things, we would love to give you the platform to share that. So do drop me a line, kelly@rubbercheese.com and we will make that happen. All right, great. Same time next month.

Paul Marden: Awesome.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE!

Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
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Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

enDecember 06, 2023

The transformation of process and people at an 180 year old attraction, with Dominic Wray

Competition ends on 20th December 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://vectis.ventures/

https://robin-hill.com/

https://blackgangchine.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominic-wray-a1b52766/

Dominic Wray is the Parks Director of Vectis Ventures, the parent company of the Isle of Wights two leading attractions; Robin Hill, and the UK’s oldest theme park, Blackgang Chine.

After 7 years of running Blackgang Chine as the Park Manager, he stepped into his role as Parks Director to play a vital position in the planning and execution of the longer term business strategy. Having been in this role for around 15 months, he has led on some big changes and transformations within the business, as well as navigating what has been a challenging year for the leisure industry as a whole.

Dominic attributes much of his success, and enjoyment of his career to the people in it. Sitting on the Management Committee for BALPPA, he is a huge advocate for industry networking and enabling peer to peer learning opportunities. He then uses this platform as a way to the develop the team that he is so passionate about, allowing them to flourish into the industry known experts of their fields.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world.

On today's episode, I speak with Dominic Wray, Parks Director at Vectis Ventures. We talk about Blackgang Chine, the 180 year old attraction, and Dominic shares his three top tips on transforming processes and developing superstar people.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. Welcome to the podcast, Dominic. It's great to have you on today.

Dominic Wray: Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.

Kelly Molson: Everyone says that at the start, and then I give them icebreaker questions, and they hate me. But this is how the podcast always starts, so you have to do them. Right. If you could enter the Olympics for anything, what would you be Olympic level at? And we're not talking it doesn't have to be sports here. It could be like baking or Olympic level complainer. Anything goes. What's your Olympic level at?

Dominic Wray: I think I would actually answer the sports based question answered that. I always, when I was growing up, wanted to play in the NBA. Basketball was a big passion of mine. So I'd say I'd want to enter the Olympics as a basketball player.

Kelly Molson: Okay. And do you play now? Is this something that you are actually good at?

Dominic Wray: Not so much now, no. I don't want to use the old adage if I got injured, but I did.

Kelly Molson: Oh, no.

Dominic Wray: We'll never know if I could have made it or not.

Kelly Molson: Good one. Have you ever been mistaken for someone famous?

Dominic Wray: Yeah, actually, yes, twice. Someone once said to me I look like Joel Dormot. I think he's a comedian. And some of the team seemed to think I look like Mark Wright.

Kelly Molson: I know this one. So I saw the picture that Laura Baxter posted of your LinkedIn. I have to say, I did a second look, Mark.

Dominic Wray: Yeah. I mean, I'll take it. I think Mark Wright’s the right looking chap, so could be worse, I suppose.

Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. A final one. What one thing would you make a law that isn't already? I've got a good one for this. So if I could be in charge of laws, I would make it a law that nobody could just stop in the middle of the pavement and look at their mobile phone, or walk upstairs with their mobile staring at their mobile phone, not actually looking where they're going, because it just makes me want to swipe people's legs away. Because they just stop in front of you or they walk really slowly up the stairs. That would be one of mine.

Dominic Wray: I'd go with, everyone needs to learn how to go through security at an airport. There's nothing more frustrating when you get there and the person in front of you isn't aware of how to go through and then there's a bit that delays the queues.

Kelly Molson: Good one. That's a really good one. They get quite shouty, the security people now, don't they? When you're queuing up like, they're shouting at you about your liquids and your jackets and you take your belts off, and I'm like, "If I take my belt off, my trousers are going to fall down. I'm not even halfway there yet." I like that one. Okay, what's your unpopular opinion?

Dominic Wray: My unpopular opinion is that motorists ruined the road for cyclists. Which I'm sure will be incredibly controversial. Yeah, that's my unpopular opinion.

Kelly Molson: This is going to be a controversial one and I really want to know what you think about this one, listeners. Yeah, I don't agree with you, but you are a hardcore cyclist. I’m going op guess.

Dominic Wray: I do pay my road tax, drive a car myself, but yeah, someone that very much enjoys road cycling. Yeah, that is definitely my viewpoint on other motorists.

Kelly Molson: I think there needs to be made room for both on the roads. There's not sufficient cycle lanes in areas where there should be sufficient cycle lanes. Although I live just outside Cambridge and Cambridge is pretty good for cyclists. If this was me, I would ban cyclists from cycling through the city centre of Cambridge, because the amount of times I've nearly been run over by cyclists in the city centre is quite a lot.

Dominic Wray: I will say. Not every cyclist is respectful of most receivers. It is a two way street, quite literally. Do you understand that?

Kelly Molson: I like this. Right, okay, listeners, what do you think about the unpopular opinion? I feel like I've just got myself in hot water with all my Cambridge cycling friends as well.

Dominic Wray: They're all going to be kicking off.

Kelly Molson: We're all in trouble. We're in trouble together, Dom. It's fine. Right, tell us a little bit about your background, because you have come into attractions not from an attractions background, and I always find this quite fascinating, how people end up within the sector. You've come from banking, right?

Dominic Wray: Yes, yes. I started off my career when I left school selling houses, and then I moved into banking after that. I used to work for Lloyds Bank and one of my clients was our current HR director here, lady called Paula, and I used to see her every year. She'd come in, talk about this great place that she worked and all these fun projects she was working on and how magical it was. And I remember sort of sat there thinking, "Gosh, your job sounds really interesting and you're working on these varied projects and you're getting to experience loads of cool things." She was talking to me about fireworks events and dinosaurs and cowboys and pirates. I was thinking, "I'm saya, talking about savings accounts and loans and boring stuff that comes to banking."

Dominic Wray: And then one day I saw an advert in our local paper on the island for a Park Manager role for Blackgang Chine. Which is the park that Paula worked at, and I read through it and I thought, “Okay, yeah, I can do this. It sounds like I've got the skill set to do this.” Not really knowing anything about running a visitor attraction at all. So off I went to the interview, got my job and I thought, “Oh, great, yeah, if I can sell houses and I can run a bank, the only I could run a visitor attraction.” It's just taking those skills and applying them across into a different sector.

Dominic Wray: Eight or nine years later, still here now and lot of a big learning curve along the way, but yeah, not a traditional route into it, but Blackgang on the island is a very iconic visitor attraction. All the children on the island have been there, had very fond memories of coming here as a child and I just thought, “Wow, what an opportunity to wake up every day and go to work in a fun”, magical place that's the complete opposite from the confines of a bank. So I thought, “Yeah, I'm going to back myself and go for it and do it.”

Kelly Molson: How weird is that? Knowing that you went there as a child as well and now you actually run the place. That's massive, isn't it?

Dominic Wray: Yeah, when I'm walking around, there's lots of areas of the park that are still the same and happened for many years and they carry great sentiments or walking through certain areas and they hear certain sounds or certain smells in the park and it takes you back to being a kid every day. So it's quite a magical place to work.

Kelly Molson: That's really sweet. And so what was that transition like? Because I've just got this vision of you kind of like rocking up on the first day and going, "Where do I start?".

Dominic Wray: Yeah. So on day one when I arrived, the gentleman who was doing the role beforehand had left. So I had a laptop set of keys and they sort, "Off you go.. And I was like, "OK, I've got to have to work this out", which I did. I was lucky enough to go to IAAPA in Orlando and I went on a week long training course, management course there around Park Management of Visitor Attractions, which I think was really interesting, really useful, gave me a great insight into the attraction space. And then I've worked through that by learning about the various different departments and functionalities of the business along the way. But it was a big change for me to go from working for a large corporate company to moving to a family owned company.

Dominic Wray: Blackgang Chine has been owned by the same family for 180 years, which is the Dabell family. So it was a big shift for me from having multiple layers of people and it taking weeks to get a decision to just having to go and speak to one person as long as they say, "Yes", you're on your way. So it's enjoyable working for a much more dynamic organization where you can pivot more quickly. And that was sort of one of the surprising things, having come from a bigger company, how quickly things can move and change. But I think that's a real positive fallout.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, definitely. I love that you did like a crash course, you did like your crash course, your driver's course, you didn't do those week intensive course, you did your weeks intensive course of being a park manager and that was it into the job. So what does your role cover then? Because I know you operate across two parks at the moment, so you've got Blackgang Chine, you've got Robin Hill. What does that look like for you in terms of your role?

Dominic Wray: So my role sees me overseeing the parks and the strategic position. So I look after the business of the group as a whole. I was previously the park manager of Blackgang and then over the last twelve months transitioned to a new role, Parks Director, which sees me overseeing the group from more of a strategic position. So everything from opening calendars, pricing strategy, events that we're running, health and safety, you name it, all falls under my room within the business.

Kelly Molson: I love that. I guess all of those things must have been the steep learning curve from banking where you clearly are very senior role, but probably not juggling quite so much in a day.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, I liken it to running lots of micro businesses. We've got a retail business, food and beverage business and events business, health and safety compliance element of the business. So yeah, lots of micro businesses within the big business as a whole really. But yeah, the regulation from banking around strict processes and procedures does translate quite nicely into business and also into health for safety as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And there's some of the things we're going to talk about today. So we've got three topics to cover which I'm really interested in. We've got processes and systems, we've got peer learning that we're going to talk about and then we're going to talk about people and team development. So what you just said there about what you've brought, that's one of the things that I'm really interested in terms of the processes and systems because you've been through quite a transformative process in your organisation with kind of people and process actually. What have you been able to bring from banking into the attractions world that's kind of helped you with those processes and systems?

Dominic Wray: I would say I learned a lot from working in a bank. One of the things was how not to do things, I'd say. In terms of life in a bank is very black and white. It's almost sort of a computer says no culture. And that really taught me that actually in real business you've got to operate a bit more in the gray. And it's much more around how can we actually make things happen and how can we do things rather than actually that's not possible. So I always say to feeling, great, well, how are we going to work around that? How are we going to make that possible? So, since I've joined the business, we've gone through quite a large transformation.

Dominic Wray: It was fair to say that when I joined, the business was very much running in a sort of historic, family orientated way of we've always done it that way. That was a phrase I heard quite a lot when I first started this. I know we've done it like that because we've always done it that way. There's sort of a lot of, "Okay, explain to me why we've done it that way and what's the approach to that?". And then over the years, we've moved into using far more digital systems. So I'm big on making sure the team can see at the various levels of the organisation, the bigger picture. And I think that then helps them understand exactly what's going on in the business as a whole. And I think that through digital optimisation of systems and processes, that really helps them do that.

Dominic Wray: So, for example, on the ride side of the fence, we bought in Mobaro, which is quite a well known safety system for our daily inspections. And that just gives far better visibility right the way from the ride operator, the person checking the rides, to the duty manager, all the way up to our owner if he wants to go in on a day and see what's gone on at 10:00 before the site opens. So it's really been around pivoting the organisation into becoming early adopters of technology and systems and processes.

Dominic Wray: We've also recently joined the LEAP scheme, which was quite a big jump for our industry to move away from a historical scheme that had been in place for a number of years. And were some of the first, well, one of the first parks to join that scheme.

Kelly Molson: For our listeners, what is the LEAP scheme? What does that mean?

Dominic Wray: So we have our rides basically inspected by an independent inspection body. And LEAP is the scheme that then oversees and checks off the regulation of that inspection body in a sort of basic format. But it had historically been done by a different organisation and LEAP have come into the marketplace. And taken a different approach to how that is done, which gives far more transparency to the operators and also the customers that are coming into sites to visit as well. But it was quite a big thing for us to say, "Okay, we're going to move away from that historic way of doing it into a newer way of doing things.". But I think as a company, because we can make decisions quite quickly, we don't have a big gain of sign off to go through as a team.

Dominic Wray: We can move quite quickly on things such as that as well.

Kelly Molson: I really like that kind of transparent approach that you talked about because it feels like that would help with kind of unifying the kind of organisational culture as well because people have a bit more visibility about what's going on behind the scenes, so to speak.

Dominic Wray: Yeah. And I think giving people the most amount of information you can give them within their job role and position within the organisation, that level of transparency just allows them to do their job better. Because if they understand what the key metrics that they're working towards and how they're performing and actually how decisions they make on a day to day basis impact the bigger picture of how the attraction performs over a 12, 24 month ongoing period, that makes them feel much more empowered. Because then they can see, actually, I've made this change over here, and that made an impact onto the bottom line over here.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. It gives people that sense of ownership about what they're doing as well, doesn't it?

Dominic Wray: Definitely.

Kelly Molson: So what do you think have been the biggest transformations that you've been able to make over that period?

Dominic Wray: I would say collaborative working. The organisation used to very much be I look after food and beverage, I look after retail, I look after operations and we don't talk to each other. That's my lane.

Kelly Molson: So those little micro companies just kind of like they worked in their little silos and didn't really talk.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. Whereas what we've done across a number of years is change the structure of the way the parks run on a day to day basis. So each of the heads of those departments do take turns of doing duty management shifts. So that gives them the opportunity to experience the park as a complete 360, interact with different departments, understand how other departments work and function. Most importantly, that gets them in front of customers in different areas of the business as well, then that helps them understand, okay, in retail or operations, we're allowing people into the park in this way. If we do this is a domino effect that then actually knocks onto something that could happen in food and beverage later on.

Dominic Wray: So I think again, that goes back to giving them that bigger picture of what's going on in the company and for them to think that actually we are all one team and what someone does in one department does have a knock on effect and impact onto other departments as well. And I think that's really taken place by opening the business up a lot more. Historically, were quite closed off as an organisation, and I've been very big on getting the staff out, seeing other attractions, going, speaking to other people in other attractions, finding out how things work in other parks, other businesses.

Dominic Wray: And I think that's really then enabled us to open up a lot more and we've done that also through being members of BALPPA as well, which has been quite a key point of being able us to open up the business a lot more and experience the team, to experience things outside the company as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. So peer learning is one of the things that I'd love to explore a bit more, because I think just going back to what you said about those organisational visits, you've got a few team members that are really active on LinkedIn, so I see a lot of the things that you do as an organisation, and it's really impressive. So you do strategic team visits to other attractions to look at how they're operating, how their attractions are running, what events. You even go to some of their events and see how they've been put on. And that comes back to this whole thing about the sector being really supportive and collaborative with each other, because that never used to happen in my world. In agency world, we are far more open now than we ever were.

Kelly Molson: But I couldn't imagine ten years ago me rocking up to someone else's agency and going, "Could I just sit in on your team while you work through this project and see how your project management process works?". Piss off. I would be able to do that to a number of agencies that I know there. They'd be really happy to share, but it feels like it's kind of always been that way in the sector for attractions. Is that the case?

Dominic Wray: Yeah, 100%. I mean, that was one of the biggest things that shocked me coming into a new career, was actually you can go and ask people for help and ask them how they do things and they're more than willing to share the challenges and issues that they have, but also sharing the solutions to those problems as well. I mean, when I worked at Lloyds, I can't imagine ever walking over the road to Natwest and going, "Hi, can you explain to me how you do this?". They’d say, “Bugger of.”

Kelly Molson: You all will have exactly the same problem. So working together to solve that problem surely helps the greater good, rather than.

Dominic Wray: Everyone has the same problems. They just have it on varying scales of economy, so we might have it on this scale. You go to a bigger park, they've got the same problem, just magnified by ten.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. But you mentioned BALPPA, which I know is an incredible organisation that you're members of. How has being kind of a member of that organisation what's it brought to the attraction and to yourself?

Dominic Wray: I think it's really been transformational for the attraction, myself and the team. I think having an organisation that these business and individuals completely immerse themselves in from a learning standpoint is so valuable to me. I think it's almost like a black book. It is a black book of other attractions that you can gain access to for their knowledge, experience, processes and procedures. And as someone that came into the industry having not worked in it previous to that, I found the organisation so valuable in terms of my own personal learning and the learning of the site as well. So as an attraction, we've massively benefited from being members of BALPPA. We hosted the summer conference this year, which was a big deal for us.

Dominic Wray: So everyone BALPPA came to the island and they spent a day at Blackgang Chine and Robin Hill, and we hosted a gala evening dinner at Robin Hill, which was fantastic. And that was great to show it off to peers and people within the industry and for them to kind of understand about what we do. Because obviously I go along to a lot of events with a lot of the other team and we're all sort of banging the drum about the company. But it's great for people to come and experience that firsthand as well. So I think it's helped broaden the profile of the business and also the individuals within the team as well. I think that's been brilliant for the team's personal development, but also really for their learning.

Dominic Wray: The fact that there's people in the organisation that you can go and talk to about everything from ticketing strategies through to mechanical issues you've got on rides, or the fact that people are so open that you can ring them up and say, "Hey, I've got this issue with this, how do I fix it?" I'll bring this chap, he's the person you need to go and call about this. Or, I'm a bit stuck for this spare part. Yeah, phone this person, they'll be able to get it to you quicker." And everyone's so supportive and willing to help each other. It's quite amazing to see, as I said, coming from a space where that is the complete opposite of that. It's brilliant to be involved in an organisation where if all the attractions are winning, the space is winning and the industry is winning.

Dominic Wray: And I think everyone's mature enough to realise that we've all got our own individual niches and we're not all competing against each other. So actually, by helping each other and people having amazing experiences across all attractions, it just benefits the industry as a whole.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, completely. It just comes back to that whole working in partnerships and not in silos again, doesn't it? You mentioned about people, this is the other thing that I really want to talk about, because you've got brilliant people that work at your organisation and you call them superstar people, which I really love. I guess BALPPA is one of the things that you've put in place to kind of help them because like you said, other team members, not just yourself, can go along to these meetings and they can benefit from the peer to peer learning that you get at those events. And actually just the networking, not even just I've been to a BALPPA event. And what struck me about it was the knowledge that was shared at that meeting.

Kelly Molson: And what struck me about it was the knowledge that was shared at that meeting, it was so authentic and so transparent, actually, that you got a lot from just the talks, but actually you get even more from just networking from people that are in the same position as you, at a different attraction again, have those same kind of challenges and same kind of things that they need to talk about. And being able to just have them on speed dial is so beneficial. What else have you kind of put in place to help develop some of your superstar people there, though?

Dominic Wray: So, as you mentioned, I think the team going along to BALPPA events has been a big thing for them. I think when you're doing your day to day job, you're running at 100 miles an hour, it's quite hard to sort of benchmark yourself against other people in the industry. And I've noticed that when team members have gone along to BALPPA events, they sort of come back with a sense of,” I could hold a conversation with someone from a bigger park. I'm competent at knowing what I'm doing”, which I know that they know that, but I think that helps reinforce confidence within them as well. And I just think they're fantastic spaces for developing the team's personal confidence and, as you said, their wider personal network as well, and knowledge and understanding.

Dominic Wray: I mean, we've seen some of our team members, Laura, who's one of our superstars in our marketing team, she did a keynote speech on Christmas, at the BALPPA marketing conference. And it was so good. I was so proud to see her go there, deliver that, she'd been in the office working hard on it, and then just to stand up and absolutely smash it and see people's reactions to her explaining about that piece was just brilliant. And James, who oversees our site and services, he's due to do a talk on the install of our new rides at the latest BALPPA for Health and Safety Conference that's coming up as well. So I think it's brilliant for the team to be able to be on that platform and develop themselves as well.

Dominic Wray: Other things that we do in an organisation as well. I think I'm really big on giving the team space to be able to do their job safely. I think it's good to allow them to give them the space to they're the experts in that area. I very much see my role is overseeing that and making sure all the pieces are coming together. But quite often I will say to them, "Guys, what do you think about this particular thing? Or how should we approach that?". Because ultimately, they're the experts within the business, within their chosen fields, and I'm big on giving them the opportunity to be the experts in those areas. I also think it's great to take some time out to learn more about them as individuals and their roles and their interests within those roles as well.

Dominic Wray: So, for example, when Laura joined the business, went on a two day marketing course together. It was a conference that she wanted to attend, but I said, "I'll go with you. I'm keen to learn more about the in depth elements of marketing and I think it'd be a good shared experience for us.". And I think that then just enables the team to feel, actually I'm interested in their department and how they work and operate. And I think there's always something that you can learn from everyone that you meet and interact with. So I'm big on doing that. And then the final thing I'll say is really let them be a star in their area and promote that.

Dominic Wray: I mean, the example of Laura with the marketing conference talk was brilliant. It was great to see her on stage representing the business, but also the spotlight was on her and it was about her in that moment, which was fantastic. And I think that's really good when the team feel like they can be superstars in their own arenas of their chosen fields.

Kelly Molson: I love that. I remember that talk really vividly. It was really heartwarming, actually. And there was a really personal element to it as well. And you could see how much she was connected to the subject matter that she was speaking to as well. This is something that we talked about prior to coming on today, about how you've kind of supported your team as well as they kind of move through their careers and they move through what they're doing at the attractions. And one of the things that you've really helped them start to develop is their personal brands. Such a hot topic. It's one I love talking about.

Kelly Molson: It's something that I've really tried to do as best as I can over the last kind of I think just prior to the pandemic, actually, I kind of started to think about what is it that I want people to remember me about, what's important to me? And if I've got a platform, how am I going to use it to talk about the things that I think are important and that other people should hopefully find as important as me.

Kelly Molson: And I think what you've done there is kind of facilitate that for your team, which is really lovely to see because everybody, like you said, is working for the whole of the organisation, but they all have their own kind of individual specialisms. How have you kind of helped people or encouraged people to develop their personal brands? What are the kind of things that you've done there?

Dominic Wray: I've encouraged them to get out there, engage with other people, engage within different networks. I think LinkedIn is a great tool for that as well. I think the team all do lots of amazing things every day that we all see and know that they do. But I'm big on encouraging them about, shouting about that. I think as general British people, we're quite sort of we don't like self promotion too much, don't like talking about ourselves too much. And I think having Laura, to be fair, join the team earlier in the year, who's big on her LinkedIn content and big on talking about what's going on out there, has really helped the team and pushed everyone forwards with doing that. And I've really encouraged them.

Dominic Wray: You might not think anyone's going to take value from the content you're putting out or discussing that, but actually they will because there's probably someone somewhere looking at that thinking, "How do I overcome that problem?” Or “I've got a similar ride to that we're just in the process of refurbishing, maybe I can reach out to them and find out how they're doing that." So really believing in themselves and that they really are superstars in their area and they should be promoting that and talking about how great they are in the businesses that they work for.

Kelly Molson: Have you seen that encouragement kind of help with some of the team's own self confidence as well? They're kind of braver about putting themselves forward for certain things.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, yeah, massively. James, who oversees both of our sites from the site and services viewpoint, started off within the maintenance team one of those sites and he's worked his way up through the business. Now he's responsible for health and safety across both of them. He oversaw the install of our new ride which went in at the beginning of the year as well and it's been fantastic to see him grow and his confidence grow and develop within that. And now he's been asked to go forward, as I said, to do a talk next month about that ride install going ahead, which will be his first sort of public speaking gig, and I'll be very much there to support him along with that as well. So it's been great to watch the team develop and grow along with that and their confidence as well.

Kelly Molson: That's really lovely to see. Well, I think in the past, people probably haven't wanted to highlight certain people, do you know what I mean? If we put these people out in the world, other people might steal them from us. But I think you have to develop your people and you have to let them shine in the roles that they're in because they'll just get better and better and better. So it's really lovely to see that you're encouraging that. I think it's such an important part of running a successful organisation now.

Dominic Wray: Yeah. And I think the team are happier from that. I think if you give them the freedom to go out and experience other attractions and speak to other people at various different levels of organisations, they feel happier where they are. I think if you kind of constrain them and say, "Oh no, we can't allow you to go and speak to these people. We can't allow you to go and visit them because they might poach you or they might offer you a different job." Then they're going to be thinking, "Actually, maybe the grass is greener on the other side.".

Kelly Molson: This is not the company for me after all.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. And I think there's nothing wrong with them being having their own personal brand within the wider brand of the business. I think that's good for them.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I think so too. It's really brilliant to see what you've been developing there. Right. I would love it if you could share some top tips for our listeners. We always get our guests to share top tips. Three top tips on processes and people development that you'd encourage other attractions to adopt.

Dominic Wray: My first one would definitely be, and I've already mentioned it, but get your team out visiting other attractions. Can't express enough how much they'll learn from those experiences. I think if you set it out in the right position to say, "Okay, guys, we're going to go and visit this event, this is what we're going to be looking for. This is what I want us to take back from that. When we come back, we're going to have a clear debrief to go through key learnings of that and how we're going to implement that into our business. You can still obviously have a great enjoyable experience."

Dominic Wray: That's one of the best things about working in this industry is going on an R & D trip, but getting to go on a couple of roller coasters and get scared, go to the scare mazes or whatever else you're going to be doing. I think it's great team building as well. It's great for the team to go and see that. And what I find amazing is it can be anything from the way a site manages its waste or the layout of a queue line or actually I liked on the way in how this person upselled this ticket for me. There's so many things you can gain from that.

Dominic Wray: I think when you're going into an attraction, looking at that from that perspective, I just think it's brilliant and there's no kind of training course that you can send anyone on that will deliver that value that they get from going and experiencing it firsthand.

Kelly Molson: I'm just laughing at the excitement about waste as well like, "Yeah, we could see how they process their waste." That is exciting.

Dominic Wray: That would be something that James would probably come back to say to me. But that's what I mean. Everyone of the team's interested in different things, so it's good.

Kelly Molson: On this topic of the visits, do you always go to places that are quite similar to yours as well? Or do you do visits that are in complete contrast to what you do as well? To see the difference.

Dominic Wray: We'll do a bit of both. Probably a good example is when we set up our Halloween event over October, when we very first did that, went to visit Tully's Farm, which was sort of, in our eyes, as the gold standard of scare attractions. The first time went there, we just went to see what is it as an attraction? How does that concept work? The overview sort of headline of that. And then over the years, as we've developed Terror Island, which is our Halloween event, which we run here, over October, we've been back to Tully's on numerous occasions. We've had Stuart, who runs that, come down to the site as well, and we're then looking at that from a different perspective.

Dominic Wray: So then we moved on to, "Okay, how do we look at improving through, how do we look at improving guest experience? How do we look at upselling F&B? Where are the entrance and exit points of the mazes in relation to the broader site? How's the actual site laid out?". So we're then going back and looking at it in a sort of more detailed layer of that. But no, as a team, we'll go to much larger parks, much smaller parks, because I think there's things you can learn from all different sizes of attractions. We went to Hobbledown last year, which was an interesting experience, and we saw their water pillow there, and we actually put one of those into Robin Hill this year, which was one of our most successful attractions.

Dominic Wray: So the guys there were fantastic at explaining about the pros and cons of that attraction, which then enabled us to make an informed decision as to whether to purchase one of those or not. But, yeah, I think there's things to be learned from all different types of attractions. If people are going to them with the right mindset of thinking, “What am I going to learn?”

Kelly Molson: What's the objective here? What's the takeaway? Okay, great. So that's top tip one.

Dominic Wray: Top tip two would be celebrate personal wins for the team and then let them be stars in that moment. I think when someone in the team does something really well and they've achieved something, it's really important to broadcast that to everyone, let everyone know about that and let them shine in that moment. And for it to be about them as an individual, not so much about the company as a whole. It's them in that moment, and you want to make them feel valued and positive about whatever the experiences that they've achieved.

Kelly Molson: Nice. Good tip.

Dominic Wray: And then my third one would be let people make mistakes in a safe manner and learn from it. I think in a working environment, people are quite often aware when they've made a mistake or something's gone wrong. They don't leave someone jumping up and down. Yeah, exactly. You know, when you're like, "That didn't work. I know it's not worked well," but I think allowing them to make mistakes in a safe, controlled manner that they can then learn from, because I think quality people understand when something's gone wrong, and they equally understand how to fix it and put their hands up and say, yeah, that's happened. But we're quite quick to acknowledge that and move on to how we're going to resolve it and not allow that to occur again.

Kelly Molson: Excellent tips. Okay, as an organisation, what's your biggest opportunity and also your biggest challenge as we head into the winter months? Because I think you're coming to do you close over the season? Do you close down?

Dominic Wray: Yes. So Saturday is our last operating day, and we close from November and we open in March.

Kelly Molson: Wow. Gosh, you really are coming up to the end of the season. Okay, so what's your biggest opportunity and your biggest challenge as we head into that time?

Dominic Wray: It was quite a big challenge, and opportunity for the company is that we made a difficult decision to put one of our sites on the market and we're looking to sell Robin Hill. So that will be the biggest challenge and opportunity for the business in recent years, to be fair. I think it presents a great opportunity for the business to double down and invest further into Blackgang, which is 180 years old this year. So it's a big birthday year for us.

Kelly Molson: Incredible.

Dominic Wray: And I think that will enable us to be here for another 180 years. Not that I might still be around at that point in time.

Kelly Molson: You certainly won't look like Mark Wright at that point.

Dominic Wray: No, look like a very aged Mark Wright. But I think it's the biggest challenge for the team and myself personally as we reshape the business and pivot into a new direction, but I equally think it's an exciting one to see what will come out on the other side of that as well.

Kelly Molson: It is exciting, isn't it? I can imagine that having two parks to oversee can be a stretch at sometimes in terms of resource and also in terms of strategy and how things work, because I guess that they work similar but different. So, yeah, I can see that as a huge opportunity and something to I guess it's kind of a nice thing to focus on for the start of the new season as well, that's kind of progressing. And then you've got this really big opportunity to focus on this one thing and make it as the very best it could possibly be.

Dominic Wray: Yeah. And the team have really taken to it. They're really passionate about driving Blackgang forwards and are very excited about the changes and the plans we've got for the next year and coming years as well. So it's been well embraced by them.

Kelly Molson: Good. And I guess you're ending the season on a high as well, because we talked a little bit about your Halloween event, but it has been a really successful Halloween event this year, hasn't it?

Dominic Wray: Yes, it's gone down really well. We made the sun top ten events for Halloween attractions. So yeah, it's been really well received. It's a personal favourite of mine. Absolutely love it. It's been a complete passion project for the team, and the team are always up for every event we do, but this is one that they really get behind and are in every possible conceivable bit of detail. And as someone that never used to like horror films and hated being scared, I now absolutely love going through scare attractions and love scaring other people even more than that. Complete 360 for me as well. So you don't know what you like until you try it.

Kelly Molson: Exactly. You just never know where you never knew where this role was going to take you, did you? When you started this, Dominic, you never knew you were going to end up as a horror fan.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, exactly. Now I'm like, "Oh no, we need to make that person over there look more dead. Or how loud we need the chainsaw louder, or that guy doesn't look scary enough." Way more interesting than ices and loans.

Kelly Molson: I love it. A massive learning curve and 180 years old. I mean, that is a phenomenal achievement. There can't be many other attractions that are coming up for that age. So this is really incredible. I think you've had a really brilliant year. Can't do this podcast without talking about Radio One as well because I've been aware of Blackgang Chine for quite a while, but I think it maybe isn't on the radar of many people because it's Isle of Wight, it's not on the mainland. But I was driving back from the gym one morning and I listened to Radio One.

Kelly Molson: I listened to the Greg James breakfast show on Radio One in the mornings and they were doing this thing where they had to find one of the presenters and all the presenters were hidden up and down all over the country, and they were talking about the Isle of Wight and they kept saying, Blackgang Chine. And I was like, they're talking about Blackgang Chine. Let Laura know. I need to pull over and let Laura know. Obviously she already knew that you were being talked about, but I think how many times did he say Blackgang Chine? It was a lot.

Dominic Wray: It was a lot. I think it was over 50 times. I mean, my phone was going mental, mate. If you've got the presenters because it's because we have an area called Area Five with large animatronic dinosaurs, and they thought we'd hidden them down there and they were like, "God, you're really good at keeping a secret. I can't believe you haven't told us this.". And I'm like, "No, honestly, they're not here.". I don't want to actually believe me. Well, clearly no one did. Kept ringing up Radio One to talk about it, but that was a great bit of brand profile for the business and I guess sort of showed that people were associating the element of dinosaurs to the park as well. So that's obviously positive for us.

Kelly Molson: It was really good press, even if we didn't have the presenter there. It was absolutely brilliant.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, it was fantastic. And then everyone was almost like, they should have been here.

Kelly Molson: They should have been here. We should, we need to get Greg James back over, don't you? I mean, he said it enough, so you should get him there for a visit soon.

Dominic Wray: Greg, if you're listening, come down.

Kelly Molson: I mean, I'd love it if Greg listened to this podcast, but it's highly unlikely. But if you are, Greg, would you like to come on? I'd love a chat with you. I’m just around the corner of Bishop Stortford. That's where you were born, right? We could be friends. Dom, thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been brilliant to chat today. We always end the interview by asking our guests to share a book that they'd like to share with their listeners. So something that you love can be work related or it can be personal, whatever you fancy.

Dominic Wray: Well, I was going to think about saying the Highway Code so people can understand how to overtake cyclists, really, but I won't. My favourite podcast at the moment is a podcast called the Big Fish that's presented by Spencer Matthews.

Kelly Molson: What? Hang on.

Dominic Wray: Oh, sorry, my second favourite. My second well, obviously ones that I listen to after yours.

Kelly Molson: Thank you. Well recovered.

Dominic Wray: Once I've listened to the latest episode, I move on to Big Fish after that.

Kelly Molson: Sorry, say it again. Big Fish. Who's it by?

Dominic Wray: Big Fish by Spencer Matthews, who used to be on Made in Chelsea, I think, and now owns a company called CleanCo, which is a non alcoholic brand, which is quite interesting. But I like it because he interviews lots of CEOs and business owners. It's got a bit of a sports mindset focus to it, but it's also very much around the culture in those businesses, how they've built the businesses and the challenges they face within them as well. So it's quite an interesting one.

Kelly Molson: I like the sounds of that. I listen to quite a lot of podcasts like that. All right, I'm going to put Big Fish on my list. Well, there you go, listeners. You can't win a copy of this podcast because I can't give it away, but I encourage you to go and have a little listen. Maybe it'll be your number two podcast as well, who knows? Dom, thanks for coming on today. It's been lovely to have you. Congratulations on 180 years and best of luck with everything that comes next. I think you've got a really exciting new chapter that's about to start and maybe you'll come back on in a year or so and tell us how it's all gone.

Dominic Wray: Yeah, sounds good. Thank you very much for having me enjoyed it.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

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enNovember 22, 2023

Mobile optimisation for visitor attractions, with Kelly and Paul from Rubber Cheese

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Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.

In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics.

In this episode, we're talking about mobile optimisation, why it's important and what you can do to improve it.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Hello, we're back. Everyone will be sick of us by this episode.

Paul Marden: I give it a couple more. We've got some interesting stuff to talk about hopefully, hopefully.

Kelly Molson: We have. Okay, so let's start as we usually do then, with what attraction have you visited most recently and what did you love about it?

Paul Marden: Well, there's one that you and I both visited recently, and there was something I really didn't love about it. We went on what was it called? Was it Mandrake Mayhem? It's the new Jumanji ride. Chessington World of Adventures.

Kelly Molson: Mandrill.

Paul Marden: There we go. If you are a roller coaster nut, would be amazing. But yeah, within 2 seconds of the ride starting, I realised it was not the ride for me.

Kelly Molson: I like roller coasters. Yeah. So we sponsored one of the awards at the UK Theme Park Awards. And it was brilliant. It's fantastic.

Paul Marden: It was such a great event.

Kelly Molson: Really good event, brilliantly organised. It was absolutely brilliant to see so many attraction friends there. And it was at Chessington World of Adventures, which was super cool. I also want to talk about Chessington because I had forgotten how good it is. So I haven't been to Chessington since I was really small, and I think I'm pretty sure I only visited once or twice because we actually lived closer to Thorpe Park and were like in the Thorpe Park Rangers camp. But what I'd forgotten about Chessington was the animals. Yeah, I was really lucky. I drove down the night before of the awards and got to stay at the hotel that night. I didn't get to stay in any of themed rooms because budget did not allow for that.

Kelly Molson: However, what I'd forgotten was that when you're having breakfast, the animals are literally right outside where you're eating. And I'd forgotten about it to the extent that I went up to the buffet to go and get my lovely, delicious English breakfast, which I was really looking forward to. And I could see people looking out the window and I was like, "Oh, what are you looking at?" And they went, "Giraffes? Yeah. Wow." Actually took my breath away a little bit. It was a really great experience. It's not often that you get to eat your breakfast whilst looking at giraffes and zebras as well that were out there. So, yeah, that was really great. And I really enjoyed the roller coaster. Despite someone's screams in my ear.

Paul Marden: I heard this screaming noise all the way around and about three quarters of the way around I realised it was me.

Kelly Molson: There was quite a bit of a screaming, to be fair.

Paul Marden: I watched it back. I found a video on YouTube to show Millie, my daughter, and I was like, "Oh, my God, it's horrific. You get to the end and you're just dangling on the side for about a minute and then it changes direction.” And we watched it on YouTube, it barely stops at the top of the ride. It gets up to the top, gets to a hole and then drops back down again. Now, to me, in my memory, that was a solid minute. We were hanging over the side of the hole.

Kelly Molson: It was just a minute.

Paul Marden: Anyway, I did enjoy it.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, big thumbs up to Chessington. It was a really great experience. So, thank you. A big thumbs up to the UK Theme Park Awards organisers as well. It was a great event. We'll be back next year.

Paul Marden: For sure.

Kelly Molson: Right, we're going to talk about mobile optimisation in this episode. We're going to talk about why it's important and what you can do to improve it. And we've got some really interesting stats to share from the Visitor Attraction Website Report about this. But did you know optimisation is no longer a nice to have? It's a necessity, because Statista forecasts that retail sales from mobile commerce are expected to surpass that 100 billion mark by 2000 and 2400.

Paul Marden: Crazy, isn't that?

Kelly Molson: I started my career in digital, in ecommerce as well, which is crazy. So it just feels really I know, back in the day, so I always say it was my last proper job before I founded Rubber Cheese, which then has been like, what, nearly 21 years. So it was the last proper job that I had before I set that up was for a really early startup, almost like Shopify, but back then. So this is like 23 years ago.

Paul Marden: We've got employees younger than that.

Kelly Molson: Let's look at it. But it enabled sellers to go and build their own shop. It was called iShop. It was an absolutely incredible platform of its time. And back then, I just about had an email address, let alone did everything, could pretty much run my entire organisation on my mobile phone now. It just blows my mind how much things have moved on.

Paul Marden: It's crazy, isn't it?

Kelly Molson: Anyway, I digress. So our Visitor Attraction Website Report shows that attractions understand the importance of mobile optimisation for their websites, but there's really huge areas that could be improved. This, for me is the most shocking stat from the entire report. It's blown my mind slightly. 96% of the respondents stated that they had never conducted any user testing for their mobile sites. So that's nearly all of the 188 attractions that took part said that they've never done any user testing on their mobile, which I just don't understand. I've been banging on about testing on your mobile, testing your mobile site for every talk that I've given for the past two years.

Paul Marden: Well, that's having a big effect, isn't it, mate?

Kelly Molson: Isn't it? Maybe I should talk louder. Yeah, I'm really gobsmacked at it. What was really interesting, though, about it, I mean, it's a shocking stat in itself, but what we did this year with the report is that we asked attractions to kind of self-score their website. So we asked them what they felt their design scored in terms of design, so they could give it a one to ten score. So we asked them to do the same about different areas of their site, and one was mobile optimisation. So 31% gave their site a score of nine out of ten for it, and 24% gave their site an eight out of ten.

Paul Marden: They think it's pretty good.

Kelly Molson: Yes, and this is the problem. So they think it's good. That indicates that those scores are based on internal assumptions, not potentially not tangible user centred data, because they haven't asked the people to test that their mobile sites are a nine out of ten or an eight out of ten. So I just thought that was really interesting, that a lot of your judgement can be based on your assumptions rather than actually asking the people that are using it. So yeah, I think that's really important that people do that.

Paul Marden: I was looking at some stuff that was related to this, but not the same area of the stats that you were looking at there. So I looked at how many of the group actually did any user testing on their site. Okay. And obviously that's a really in comparison to other stats where there's a big wide disparity between different sorts of people. The vast bulk of people reported that they weren't doing any user testing, but the ones that did, all sat in the top range of conversion rate. I'm not saying that one causes the other, but there is a strong relationship between the group of people that are user testing their sites. And all of that group of people also had a conversion rate right in the top of our data set, and that ranged in size as well.

Paul Marden: So we're not just talking about the big brands that are doing this. And when you looked at that set of data, there was a big brand in there. Everybody would know it. There was quite a few big brands that weren't in there. So for me, they were conspicuous by their absence because I'd seen them elsewhere in the data set that had been reported. But there was a small brand in there as well, a small organisation. I'd not heard of them before. They had between 5 to 10,000 transactions a year, which in comparison to the people at the top end of the scale, that's at least an order of magnitude smaller organisation. But they were reporting that they were doing user testing and they had a conversion rate right up there in the top end of our data set.

Paul Marden: Even more surprisingly, of those that have done user testing specifically on mobile was a very small percent. And this bit you will be pleased about because some people are listening to you, that consisted of a very high proportion of Rubber Cheese clients were in that set of people who were doing user testing specifically on their mobile experience.

Kelly Molson: Yay. Yay, Rubber Cheese clients!

Paul Marden: Somebody is listening to you.

Kelly Molson: High five to all of you lovely people. Yes. So it's interesting, isn't it? Because user testing for me, so we talk a lot about marginal gains at Rubber Cheese, about trying to make something that 1% better, 1% better, 1% better. And the only way you can actually do that is by doing user testing because you just don't know what to make better. You don't know where people are finding those barriers, you don't know where people are maybe confused about something or being blocked by something as well. For me, it's the number one thing to do if you want to start making those tiny adjustments that will start to then have those incremental and larger effects later on down the line.

Paul Marden: I think it's so difficult to put yourself into the head of that person that knows nothing. We all come to the party if we run the testing, whether it's us at the attraction or us as the agency. We come to the party with lots and lots of knowledge that the average person that comes to the site and just doesn't have. And it's really hard to put yourself into that position and the solution to that is getting them to do the testing for you.

Kelly Molson: Yeah. And when it comes to testing, I think I kind of split it into two. Because for mean I've said this before, but most of my browsing or purchasing is done in a very short window of time in front of the telly when I'm supposed to be watching something that Lee and I have decided that is the one thing that we can watch with the hour of telly time that we get together each day. But actually I'll be trying to watch that whilst also doing ten other things on my phone and I'll split it into browsing and purchasing and most of that happens between about 9:00 and 10:00 for me at night and it will always be on my phone. Do not make me go, I'm not going to go back into my office and crack open my laptop at that time.

Kelly Molson: So everything has to be on my phone. I'm really time poor, clearly. So page load speed for me is really important. If I'm trying to find something, I need to find it quickly. I want to read something that's engaging, but not at the expense of not being able to load that page that I want to read. So things like compressing your images is really important. This is a difficult one when it comes to video is that I love video. I think there is nothing more engaging than video on your website, especially if you're a visit attraction to sell that experience. But lose the video on mobile or reduce it, reduce it, reduce it down because that's going to wipe out a load of bandwidth speed and it's going to make your page loads really small.

Paul Marden: I've got beef about it in terms of it's autoplay video. It's not an environmentally sustainable thing to do. We don't often think about the environmental impact of websites but it's right up there in terms of industry generating CO2 emissions and it's not the main cause of it, but it's one area where this is prevalent is in the use of autoplay video on homepage. The website. People go to the site, the video plays whether they want to watch the video or not and that is just burning through bandwidth which is ultimately generating CO2. So I'm not anti video. I think video is an amazing thing and as you say, it can really engage you. I sat this morning talking about engaging video to try and get people to want to love the attraction to a client. So I'm totally for it.

Paul Marden: But it should be something that user opt into, not something that autoplays for them.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I agree. And content as well. So we know that people read content online differently than they do in a book or a magazine or a newspaper for example, but actually they read it differently than they do on desktop to mobile too. So you actually need to think about if a certain article you have or a blog or event or whatever it may be, is going to sit in the demographic of people like me who is a 45 year old woman with toddler has 1 hour in front of the telly a day to do all of her purchashing and scrolling and anything else she needs to do on her phone.

Paul Marden: Superheroes you make.

Kelly Molson: Where is my cape? That content really needs to appeal to them and it needs to be in the shortest form possible because I don't have the time to read all of the engaging content. I just don't. So you need to kind of think about, is your content formatted differently when it's from desktop to mobile as well? And then when it comes to purchasing this one's, a little bit trickier for attractions, I think, and there's lots of different reasons for it. We're probably going to talk a little bit longer about this one, but the number one thing that we're always asked to review on attraction websites is that booking journey. And the thing is, we can only do the review of it if that booking journey is owned by the attraction.

Kelly Molson: What I mean is if it's been designed and you are integrating with your booking system via API, so your agency or your internal team have designed that journey up to the point of you know, the tickets in the basket and gone. If you're using a third party system, an off the shelf ticketing platform that isn't integrated via API, there's not a lot that we can do about of once a guest is into the purchasing journey, they're with that system. The things that you can think about if you are going to go down the design and at your own route, you need to think about big buttons, you need to think about less clutter. I want arrows, don't make me type stuff into small form, free form boxes on mobile. You just need to be able to select things really quickly and clearly.

Kelly Molson: So you want to kind of just strip out all of the noise and just get people to focus on the one thing that you want them to do, which is go through that journey and buy that ticket. What was interesting in the stats that came out of the report is that 75% of the respondents to it still expect customers to complete more than five steps to purchase, which hasn't changed from last year, that's similar to last year. And again, the reasons you might not be able to control that, you might be unable to control that because of the system that you use. So this is a really challenging one, but if you can reduce it, you can actually make some quite significant financial gains. So you looked at the impact of bookings on conversion rate, which is quite significant.

Paul Marden: I got really excited working this number out. I reckon these numbers are conservative as well because these are on the basis of ticket prices and lost ticket sales. For me, I think this number could be higher for most attractions because the value of somebody coming to an attraction is bigger than just their ticket price. We talked about this the other day when were chatting. When you go there's, the meal that you eat, there's the gifts that you buy when you leave. So the total cost of somebody arriving at the attraction is probably higher than I'm estimating here. But using some stats on what the fall off rate is in ecommerce transactions, we've worked out that each step that you add to your checkout flow, it costs.

Paul Marden: For our average attraction in our data set that we reckon it costs about 8000 pounds a year in lost sales. And for our top performing attractions it could be worth in the range of a quarter of a million pound a year in lost sales for each step that is included in their checkout flow. You think if you're in one of those top performing attractions with five steps, a quarter of a million pound in lost sales just in year one, that's a lot of developer time that you could buy to simplify your checkout workflow, isn't it? The return on investment for that, for a big organisation of simplifying your checkout workflow I think could be huge.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it could. There's so many other factors to think about. We have clients that have API integrations, we have clients that use off the shelf booking systems. In one way, I've always been really in the corner of designing and owning your own booking journey, but you have to be realistic about what that puts on the organisation as well, and what size your organisation is, whether you have the internal team to be able to manage that, the infrastructure to be able to manage that as well.

Paul Marden: There's a total cost of ownership issue, isn't there, that is beyond just the buying price of the website in the first place. You've got to be able to maintain the thing going forward, haven't you, and that's pricy.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. But I think if you are thinking about your booking systems at the moment, then having the conversations with the providers about what their mobile journeys look like, ask to get them to demo it on mobile so you can see it for yourself. And ask them what the roadmap is in terms of mobile optimisation for the booking journeys as well. So just go into these conversations with those thoughts in mind so that you can get an understanding of what that looks like. And if their purchasing journey is six steps at the minute, ask them what are your plans to reduce that to five steps and how could we work with you to make that happen? That could start to take those conversations in some really positive ways.

Paul Marden: Honestly, this stat, I'm going to sound like such a nerd, but this stat has stuck in my head ever since we worked this one out. And I can't get out of my head what the impact is of the lost opportunity, the lost sales that are happening because of these steps. And I've been thinking, what is the absolute barest minimum? Because lots of attractions, when they're going through their buying journey, I'm thinking, what on earth do you need to ask me? This is a rhetorical question, by the way. I know the complexity that is going into a lot of these things, I do understand it, but why is it that you actually need to ask me to take these five steps to get through, to get me to actually part with my money?

Paul Marden: And I've been thinking about, for me, what is the absolute barest minimum you could get away with asking? Well, there's no way that you can affect a payment card transaction without knowing the card details. So you've got to ask the card number, the postcode, the CDC number and the surname of the person holding the card. So you have to have those. And if we can't give the ticket to somebody, we've got to have a mechanism getting the ticket to them, so we need their email address. Those five things are the absolute barest things I could get away with. But of course, that would only sell you, could only sell an undated, untimed ticket with that.

Paul Marden: And I've been thinking about this back in COVID, so COVID and lockdown, and then the gradual release of lockdown was what introduced for many attractions, timed and dated tickets, wasn't it? And that was a complete transformation because we had limited capacity, we needed to make sure that we didn't oversell that capacity and create a problem at the gate. But is it necessary now? I completely understand that there's lots of benefit to the attraction, to guest services and people like that, of knowing exactly how many people are coming into the attraction and being able to metre that. But I wonder what impact having timed tickets and dated tickets is having on the number of people that give up buying because there's just too many steps in the process. "I can't be bothered with this. I'm going to not do it."

Kelly Molson: This is quite controversial.

Paul Marden: Isn’t it? Completely. And I'm thinking back to that podcast episode that you did with Roman Baths where you were talking about variable pricing and dynamic pricing and of course you can only do those things if you have dated and timed tickets. So if nothing else, there is a creative tension there, isn't there, between if I ask the absolute barest minimum, I will sell more tickets, versus if I date and time my tickets and I could be really flexible about my pricing. Everybody wants lots and lots of information because who wouldn't want all the information you could possibly get about your customers versus the more I ask, the less people will buy. Harsh, isn't it?

Kelly Molson: Yeah. I'm in the camp of pre booking as well, so this is uncomfortable for me. I'm in the camp of pre booking and I don't mind time ticketing either. I think there is absolutely a place for it and I think for organisations, for attractions, it just makes their life so much simpler.

Paul Marden: Completely agreed with you. But I guess there's this at one end of the scale, you've got the absolute barest minimum that you could ask that will get more people, take their money, take money off of people and get them through the checkout flow as fast as you possibly can. Versus if there's two ends to this spectrum and both make us both feel uncomfortable, Where's the middle ground? Do you need to know where my address is? You don't need my address to be able to sell me a ticket. You need to know my postcode so you can do the credit card transaction, but you don't need my whole address to do that. So maybe that's where the compromise sits. That doesn't make either of us feel uncomfortable.

Kelly Molson: Maybe. I always think there's a way to get more data out of people at a later stage as well, if you really want it. And maybe that's something that we need to look at in a different episode, is that you don't have to ask for all of these things at the point of purchase, but you can ask for more stuff afterwards as well if you're really engaging with that audience.

Paul Marden: There's also one more thing just on that point, there were tools that could simplify this as well. Because if you have a clever use of Apple Pay or Google Pay, both of those checkout flows, people have all of their personal information plugged into Apple Pay, so you don't need to ask me anything about me. If you have a clever checkout flow with Apple Pay, then you could take my money and then get my personal information from Apple rather than make me having to type it all in. How much easier does that make the process?

Kelly Molson: When I posted about this on LinkedIn, it must have been a couple of months ago now, and I asked people what their biggest frustrations was with booking journeys. They said lack of Apple Pay. They said it's a necessity for people. They don't want to think about their details. They don't know their card details. They haven't gotten again, they're sitting on the sofa like I am, their cards are upstairs. They're not going to get off their bums and go and get their cards. That was the number one thing that kept coming up over and over again. And then the second one was around clear and consistent pricing so that they don't feel like they're being ripped off as the deeper they get into that journey. So that's two really interesting things to think about there.

Kelly Molson: On these episodes, we often highlight people that are doing it. Well, we've decided not to do it in this episode. And there's a couple of reasons for that, is that it's really hard to compare between people that have an API integrated designed booking journey and people that are using off the shelf systems. And there will be very specific reasons for why they have chosen to go down either of those routes. And you can't compare them because the reasons are uncomparable, I feel. So we've decided just to take that step out for today, but we are going to talk about what next steps that you can take. So I think the first one is going back to what you've just referenced is thinking about what information you actually really need from the customer.

Paul Marden: Yeah, if you ask less, you'll need less steps. The less steps, the more people will make it through the checkout site.

Kelly Molson: So what can you remove and maybe what could you add in later in addition to that.

Paul Marden: Completely.

Kelly Molson: And then test on mobile. Test again. Didn't I end last episode with saying just test, test on mobile regularly, but go through the entire process from start to finish.

Paul Marden: And then the fix the stuff that doesn't work. So I had an interesting conversation when were at Theme Park Awards with another podcast alumni. We were chatting about prepping for the report and where were going and what were doing and all that kind of thing. And he told me a story about a site, fairly large attraction, where when you try and check out the only way if you're doing it on mobile, you can't select the number of tickets when you hold your mobile up. Now, the attraction has tested, they know it because they've written a message at the top of the page and it says to be able to book your tickets, rotate your phone to the side and then you get the ability to be able to choose your numbers.

Paul Marden: So great, they're doing some testing, but how many people don't bother reading that message, how many people are stymied by the idea that, "Oh, well, I can't choose the number of tickets?" Not only have you got to test it, you got to fix the stuff that doesn't work as well.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, gosh, how frustrating is that? And is that the system that they're using? So they've got no control over it. And if that is the system that they're using, then they didn't get them to demo it on mobile, did they, when they purchased it?

Paul Marden: I think it's a combination of the two. I think there was something very special about the ticket descriptions of that attraction. That meant that they wrote quite a lot in the descriptions and when you wrote quite a lot in the ticket description, it just overflows off the side of your mobile, unless you've got a massive tablet. Or you rotate it on the side.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's not great. Asking them to do something that they're not expecting to have to do is challenging, isn't it, asking all your users to think, well, they don't want to think either. They don't want to think at that point. They just want to do the doing. Okay, what kind of budget are we looking at for some of these things? It's really difficult to say.

Paul Marden: Yeah, as you've just said, or to remove steps out of the checkout flow. It could be impossible for many people, because if they have an off the shelf ticketing system that they call out to that they don't have control over, then they might not be able to do anything about that. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's lots of things with those off the shelf ticketing solutions. Many of them are very flexible about the steps that you take through the checkout flow. So it can be very highly configurable and it could be in their control to just take it out without any need for developers doing things. It could just be a case of how do they use their third party ticketing system and changing that slightly.

Paul Marden: So it could be possible, or it could be something very practical that they could do themselves.

Kelly Molson: It's worth saying that we as an organisation have lots of conversations with lots of the ticketing providers and they are very aware of improvements that can be made or would like to be made to this.

Kelly Molson: So I think that there's definitely a movement in the ticketing world of acknowledging that this is challenge and knowing that they can do something about it. And I know that there are a few that have got kind of plans to make change in this area as well. So that's great to see.

Paul Marden: It's a really competitive space, isn't it? So it's interesting to see how that's going to play out.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, very much so. Okay, well, look, listeners, this is us for another month. What we'd really like, though, is to understand what you'd like to hear from us. So we've got loads more topics that we can talk about from the report. We have got loads of things that come up on day to day basis, things that we work on that we can talk about. But if there's anything that you would like us to discuss, any questions that you'd like to ask us, we can happily make those into a podcast episode. So send me an email. It's kelly@rubbercheese.com. Just let me know what you're having challenges with. Yeah, any questions that you just would like us to cover as a topic and we can make that happen.

Paul Marden: Awesome. I'd love to. I'm enjoying it.

Kelly Molson: Me too. It's lovely to have a fellow guest. Fellow host.

Paul Marden: I just got downgraded then.

Kelly Molson: Who's the real host? Me, of course. It's lovely to be joined by a second host. Thank you, Paul. See you next month.

Paul Marden: Bye. Bye.

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE!

Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

enNovember 01, 2023

Philanthropic thinking for funding of new projects, with Rhiannon Hiles

Competition ends on 20th December 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.beamish.org.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rhiannon-hiles-4469784/

Rhiannon Hiles is Chief Executive of Beamish, The Living Museum of the North.

Rhiannon leads the talented team of staff and volunteers, and is responsible for strategic development and operations at the award-winning County Durham open air museum, which brings the region’s history to life.

With over 30 years’ experience in the culture sector, Rhiannon has extensive curatorial, commercial, operational and development expertise, combined with a great passion for museums, heritage and the North East.

Working with national and international museum colleagues, Rhiannon is at the forefront of leading open air and independent museum practice, focused on sharing ideas, knowledge and supporting talent and progression across the sector.

Rhiannon has a background in architectural and design history and an MA in Museum Studies specialising in social, rural and folk life studies and was an antique dealer and museum volunteer early on in her career. Her professional experience includes the prestigious Oxford Cultural Leaders Programme, SPARK Association Independent Museums (AIM) senior leaders programme, appointment to the board of the Association of European Open Air Museums, North East Chamber of Commerce Council member, National Museum Directors’ Council, Museums Association, Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, and the Association of Independent Museums. She has been a school governor and is currently a Museums Association mentor and Director of the Melrose Learning Trust.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. On today's episode, I speak with Rhiannon Hiles, CEO of Beamish Museum.

We talk about wiggly careers and finding opportunities that use all of your skills. We also discuss philanthropic thinking and how to use this approach to support the funding of new projects.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.

Kelly Molson: Rhiannon, it's lovely to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm very excited that we've got Beamish back on, if I'm honest. So I know that we've had lovely Matthew Henderson, one of your past colleagues, came on not too long ago and talked about creative ideas for driving commercial income.

Kelly Molson: But I've recently experienced Beamish, which I'm sure we'll talk about later on in the podcast. So I'm really tough to it's lovely.

Rhiannon Hiles: It's a pleasure to be here. I've been dying to talk to you as well. So this is great. We had that initial conversation, didn't we? And so to be talking to you again today, it's brilliant.

Kelly Molson: Well, hopefully you still feel like that after I've asked you these icebreaker questions. Let's start. Okay, I want to know what's the worst gift that you've ever received but you had to try really hard to kind of be grateful for.

Rhiannon Hiles: Well, I used to have a black and white collie when I was growing up. We had a small holding and we always had collies. And I had my favourite collie was called Woody. I loved Woody. Woody came everywhere with me, black and white. And I was out somewhere once and I said, "Oh, she looks a bit like a badger." When they asked me what she looked like. And then people kept giving me badger stuff all the time. And my house was getting full and full. I was a student at the time and had a student house that's full of badger things. And I was always very polite because I was brought up to always say, "Thank you. Thank you very much for the present." Inside I was going, "Not more badger things."

Rhiannon Hiles: And when I eventually thought I was moving and I thought, I'm going to put all those badger things in a box and take it to a charity shop, and I did that.

Kelly Molson: And somebody would have loved that big box of badger rubbish, wouldn't they?

Rhiannon Hiles: Somebody.

Kelly Molson: You get this if you've got a sausage dog as well. So we used to have a sausage dog. The minute you have one of them, everyone thinks that you are a dachshund mad and you're not. You've just got a dachshund. But they buy you everything that I've got so much stuff with dachshund. I don't know if the person that bought me is listening to this. I've got like makeup bags with dachshunds on I've been bought, like, shopping bags and things like that. And I'm like, "Yeah, she's cool and all that, but I don't need to dress myself in dachshunds and paraphernalia". For now, anytime that anyone buys me anything rubbish, I'm going to put it in the badger box. Right. I love that.

Kelly Molson: Okay, well, this is definitely not going to be badgers, but if you had to pick one item to win a lifetime supply of, what would you pick?

Rhiannon Hiles: It's not really very sustainable and everyone who knows me will be like, "You are." It sounds so vain, mascara.

Kelly Molson: Oh, yeah. No, I'm with you.

Rhiannon Hiles: Sorry.

Kelly Molson: No, don't apologise. Mascara would absolutely be on, like, my desert island diffs. If I was put if I was sent away somewhere, I would need not Desert Island Discs. What am I talking about? If I was on a desert island and I could take one thing, I want my mascara.

Rhiannon Hiles: When I was pregnant and packing, you packed the bag, ready to go to hospital, and I was like, "Have I got everything in?” And I was like, “Have I got mascara in?" And everyone's like, "You will not want that or need it." And I was like, "I will." And to be fair, I'm not actually certain that I did care, but I was safe because it was in there. Should I need it?

Kelly Molson: Yeah, at the time. Things like that are really important. Are they? Have you ever had the fake eyelashes put on so you don't have to bother with it?

Rhiannon Hiles: Oh, not to that degree. When I was a teenager, I was a goth and I thought I was Susie Sue. So this is 1983. And I really thought I was Susie Sue. And I'd spent ages studying the way she had her ticks and her eyeliner and her eyebrows. So I spent ages perfecting that and I couldn't get the eyelashes to work in the corners to what I wanted. So probably from Superdrug or the Equivalent in 1983, because I can't remember where it was in Durham. I'd snuck in with my pocket money and I bought these stick ones to go along the top. They didn't stay on for very long.

Rhiannon Hiles: I've never had the ones that people actually have physically put in, but then when I see people and maybe one of them's come out, I'm like, it looks a bit odd. Stick with your own eyelashes.

Kelly Molson: I can't do the put them on yourself. I'm not very good with stuff like this at all. I'm not very good with makeup, but mascara is my go to because..

Rhiannon Hiles: That's easy, isn't it? Opens up your eyes, away you go.

Kelly Molson: All you have to play like a new woman. But I have had the ones that someone puts in professionally before, which were amazing, but the only downside is when you decide that you don't want them any, have them taken off. Your own eyelashes look so rubbish. That you look a bit like an alien because you’ve got not enough lashes, because you had loads before with the extra on. So, yeah, little tip for you, everyone. You'll look like an alien.

Rhiannon Hiles: I'll remember that.

Kelly Molson: Right. What is your unpopular opinion for us?

Rhiannon Hiles: I listen to your podcasts and I love hearing what people's unpopular opinions are. And I listened to the one with Bernard Donoghue and the other two brilliant chaps, and one of them had nicked my unpopular opinion and now I don't want to share it because they didn't nick it, because they didn't know that I was going to do it. But I used to live in the museum, I used to live in Beamish, and it was brilliant. At the end of the day, when visitors weren't there, it was amazing.

Kelly Molson: Oh, this is what Paul said.

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah.

Kelly Molson: Kelly said that the best thing about the attractions is when people aren't there.

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah. Now, like, during the day, I would never think that or say that, because I love being amongst all the people, but when I lived in the museum, when everyone went, when the trams went, when it was deadly quiet, it was like yet another place, and it was like, "Wow, this is amazing now." And it was so different when the people weren't there. But I have to say that, for me, is an unpopular opinion, because, obviously, visitor attractions work when they're full of people. And although I used to think, I think, “Oh, it's so lovely at nighttime, or when everyone's gone”, but then when it went into lockdown into COVID, it made me sad when the people weren't there. So then my unpopular opinion kind of shifted. A very simple unpopular opinion is that I really don't like mushy peas.

Kelly Molson: I'm with you. I don't like peas of any form at all. No, I'm absolutely this might not be so unpopular because I've got, like, a group of friends that are pea haters like me, and I have passed it on to my little girl as well, which I'm trying to yeah, I know she's not great. She's really good with fruit, not good with veg, and I'm trying to kind of retract that a little bit, but she's heard me say peas and make the face and now she's like, “Peas, yucky mummy.” Yeah. I'm trying to get her to go back, but I draw the line. There's no way I'm having mushy peas in my mouth.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I think it's like the husky bit. Sometimes they're not really mushed and there's still a bit of husky pea shell in and I'm like, I don't like it.

Kelly Molson: It's actually turning my stomach, thinking, well, let's see, whose side of the coin are you on? Are you on the pea lovers side or the pea haters? Come and join us on the haters side.

Rhiannon Hiles: Vote now.

Kelly Molson: Right, I want to know a little bit about your background, because I know that you've been at Beamish for quite a while. But what did you do prior to that?

Rhiannon Hiles: When I was at school, I was really into horse riding, I had ponies and I set my sights from about the age of ten, probably to be a riding instructor. And so I was determined that's what I was going to do. But I was always a very good artist and I used to love drawing buildings and animals, not always in the same picture, but I loved the shape of buildings and I was just very interested in them. And I used to travel quite a lot with my grandparents and we used to always visit museums on the continent in particular. We used to go to open air museums loads and I just loved them. We always went in the summer, really loved them. But I still thought, I want to be a riding instructor, just want to visit those museums and have fun.

Rhiannon Hiles: And then as I went through school, you flick around, don't you, a bit, when you're in school? Because I love drawing, I love sketching clothes. And I was a bit of a gothy punk when I was a teenager, and I used to make my own clothes. But I also was really into how the interiors of buildings looked. But I continued to ride horses and I did train to be a riding instructor, but I soon discovered there's no money in that unless you've got really wealthy parents with your own riding school and everything. So I continued to ride, still love horses, but knew I just went on a bit of a quest and I did quite a lot of commissions of drawings whilst I was studying, while I was doing art at college, and then I went on to do architecture and design at university.

Rhiannon Hiles: And while I was at university, I met some people who said, "Have you ever thought about studying this and have you ever thought about doing some work in museums? And what about open air museums?". And I thought, "Well, I've always visited them, and I love them." So I started doing some voluntary work in museums and at the same time supplementing my living by buying and selling antiques. So I was antiques dealer for a while, which is good fun, actually. I quite enjoyed doing that, but I wasn't the greatest antiques dealer because I was more interested in the history of the things than the money that I was making from them. Sometimes I'd be like, "Do you know where this is from? And I just want to buy it". I was like, "But it's really interesting."

Rhiannon Hiles: So I love doing that and I think it did give me a really good grounding. So I would really like scrabble around and things. I would go into skips and get stuff out and I'd sometimes knock on people's doors and I'd say, "You've got this really interesting table in the skip, can I have it?". Sometimes I would just pass a skip and go ask paper, put it in my car, and then I'd do them up. And one of my mum's friends used to buy and sell student housing in Durham, and she used to get me to help her to get the houses ready. And she'd say to me, "I'm going to leave you.". This is in, like 1987, 88. She'd leave me with a hammer and she'd say, can you knock out that set pot in the corner?

Rhiannon Hiles: And when I come back, I'll just take you home, no PPE or anything. I'll stand there with the hammer thinking I was like, I was 18, I was like, I'll just hit it everywhere. But funnily enough, I think that gave me quite a good understanding of the ins and outs of older buildings. And I just really knew that I wanted to be involved with telling the stories of people who might have lived in those older buildings. So when I started doing that voluntary work, I did it in a museum in Durham first, which is brilliant, great grounding. It was the Oriental Museum in Durham. There's loads of work in their stores. And then my uncle's friend was a curator at Beamish, and my uncle said, "Give Jim a ring, see if you can get some voluntary work at that Beamish."

Rhiannon Hiles: So I rang that Beamish up and I said, "Could I get some voluntary work?" And it kind of started from there, and I thought when I went, I was like, I've always visited here. Didn't really cross my mind you could work here. And I just kind of loved it right from the start. I became immersed. I found a picture of me recently when I'm a bit older. I'm 21 by then, and it's just before I started working at the museum, because it's when I was doing my undergraduate degree, and I'm like, I'm in one of the cottages and I've got all my glass stuff on and I think I'm dead cool. I've got my camera, but I can tell in my face that I was like I'm like, "Wow, I'm in the opening.”

Kelly Molson: This is amazing.

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah. So I think I had a bit of a, like, I don't know, was I going to be a horse rider, was I antique stay there, was I an artist? But then when I went into open air museums, I just knew I just had this fire in my belly, whatever you want to call it. I was like, this is where I need to be and this is what my quest is. This is where I want to lead one of these I want to be responsible for one of these fantastic places.

Kelly Molson: Oh, my God, what an incredibly wiggle. I love that. So I really like hearing about where people I think the skills that people have and how they then apply them into the roles that they've ended up in. I was so shocked when you said about antiques, because I love that. I love nothing better than a Sunday morning mooch around a vintage shop or just like, scouring charity shops for any kind of bargain that I can find. And I was like, "She's literally living my life. That's amazing. I’d love to do that job.”

Rhiannon Hiles: I think, briefly, because I used to go so a friend of mine who was at university with, he said, "Well, if you're dealing in antiques, why don't we set up together? Why don't we get a van together? Have you got any money?". And I loaned 500 pounds off my mum and I said, "I'll give you it back." I don't think I ever did. And we bought this really tatty van, bearing in mind this is, like, in the late 1980s, and we used to do, like, Newark. We used to go up to Isntonton in Edinburgh near the airport. We used to go around the country doing all the really big antique spares and camp and sell our goods really early in the morning to the dealers and then all the public would come in.

Rhiannon Hiles: And then I started to be like, semi all right at it. And a friend of mine had a pub with a little what had been a shop attached to the pub in York, and she asked me if I wanted to sell some of my antiques in that little shop attached to the pub. So I did that for a little bit and then I thought, I think it's not quite working for me, there's something not quite right. And it was because I wanted to tell the stories of the things. So I enjoyed doing it and I learned lots doing it, but I wanted to be a curator, basically, and I hadn't clicked at that point. And then when it did click, I was, "It's clicked. That's what I'm going to do."

Kelly Molson: And then you stayed at Beamish and you've just progressively worked your way through all of these different roles, up to CEO now.

Rhiannon Hiles: I know. That's amazing.

Kelly Molson: It is amazing. But you hear that quite a lot, don't you, where people, they find the place and then they stay there because it's got them basically, it's just got them hooked. And I totally understand this about Beamish. Were talking about this just before we hit record, but I visited Beamish a couple of months ago and had such an emotive reaction to the place. It's an incredible experience. It's the first living museum that I've ever been to. I knew what to expect, but I didn't know what to expect, if that makes sense. I knew what was there and I knew what was going to happen and how were going to experience the day, but I was not prepared for how completely immersive it is and how emotional I got, actually, at some of the areas.

Kelly Molson: So can you just give us an overview of Beamish for our listeners that haven't been there. What is Beamish?

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah, I think you've described it really well there about it being immersive and emotional. So those elements will perhaps occur for the visitor. They might not. It depends what people want to get out of their visit. But you and I were talking about how increasingly, as we have more living memory that we represent in the museum, that people will have emotive responses. And I think that goes back to one of the founding principles of why Beamish was originated. So our first director, Frank Atkinson, in the 1950s and 60s had traveled around Europe looking at different types of social history museums. He was a social history curator and he'd come across open air museums in Scanson, in Stockholm, in Malhagen, in Lilyhammer.

Rhiannon Hiles: And he was just mesmerised by how they told the stories of the people of the locality in a meaningful way that represented the normality, the ordinary, the typical, rather than being the high end stories of lords and ladies in aristocracy. And he wanted to recreate something similar back in the north of England because he had seen disappearing stories and communities and lives. And he foresaw that there would be more of that disappearing as he foresaw that coal mines would begin to change or close. And people laughed at him sometimes when he said things like, "I want to recreate a slag heap of coal.". They went, "Why would you do that? There's lots." And he said, "Because there won't be any soon." And he was right.

Rhiannon Hiles: So the reasoning behind the creation of Beamish was to tell the stories of the rural, the industrial, the social history of the people of the north of England in a similar way to those that are told about the fork life, which is the lives of the people that you see in museums on the continent. So that's what inspired Frank. And Frank's founding principles have stayed strong throughout the museum's ups and downs. And I've seen ups and downs across the years. The 27, 28 years that I've been at Beamish, I've seen lots of ups and downs. But if ever I'm thinking, what should I do next? I always think, what does the visitor want and what would Frank think? And I don't always agree with what Frank would think. Sometimes I think," Would I agree with Frank?". But I always have those two things.

Rhiannon Hiles: I think, what would Frank think and what does the visitor need to see now? And I was watching there's a YouTube film called The Man Who Was Given the Gasworks, which is about Frank and his ideas. It was filmed in the late 1960s and it's really funny to watch, very BBC when you watch it, but it tells you a lot about where the ideas came from. But some of the things that he's talking about and the people that he's meeting in Scanson in the continent and he's interviewed by Magnus Matheson as a very young man, which is quite interesting. They still ring true and they still have this philosophy that all school children would visit from the locality to their open air museum.

Rhiannon Hiles: And that's still a strength that's still very important to myself, but also to our museum, but also to other open air museums that I know. So Beamish kind of evolved as a concept, and then Frank found a site to build this big open air site which would tell the story of the people of the north of England. He was shown lots of different sites around County Durham. And the story goes, and I've talked to his son about this, and his son says, "I think that's what dad did." His son's about the same age as me. So he wasn't born when Frank had this idea, but apparently he got to where you come in at the car park underneath the Tiny Tim theme hammer.

Rhiannon Hiles: The story is that when Frank arrived there and the trees hadn't grown up at that point, that he looked down across the valley and turned to the county officer who was saying, "Do you want this site?". And said, "This is it. This is where I'm going to have a museum of the people of the north." He said it was the bowl and the perimeter with the trees, so it could be an oasis where he could create these undulations in the landscape and tell the stories through farming, through towns, through different landscapes, through industry, through transport. He did at one time have a bizarre idea. Maybe it wasn't bizarre to flood the valley and tell the history of shipbuilding. I'm kind of pleased that didn't happen.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, me too. It's really spectacular when you do that drive in as well, isn't it? I got this really vivid memory of kind of parking my car, walking across to the visitor centre and you kind of look down across the valley and the vastness of the site, the expanse of it is kind of out in front of you and it is just like, "Oh." You didn't quite grasp how big that site is until you see it for the first time. It is really impressive.

Rhiannon Hiles: It is. And actually, I'm taking trustees, our new board of trustees. I'm taking them on a walkabout. And that's one of the key things. You just explained it perfectly. I'm going to use your quote tomorrow morning. I'm going to say, this is the Kelly Molson view, because I'm taking them to that point and I'm going to say, "Look across the vastness of the museum and the woodland. We look after all the woodland, all the footpaths through the woodland.". So it's the immediacy of where the visitor comes into the museum is more than that. And so I think we are a visitor attraction and we are self sustaining, but we're sustaining environmentally as well, in terms of what we do, looking after all that woodland and farmland as well. And I think that there's a lot more still that the museum has left to do.

Rhiannon Hiles: I think it's almost like it will continue to evolve and change. There'll be ever changing. Someone who I know, who runs a museum on the continent, I was saying to them, "What are you going to develop next?". And they've done a lot of development very quickly and they get some very good funding, which is brilliant for them, but they have to stop developing because their site is so small, they can't develop any further. They're in the middle of a city and they represent an old town and their site is constrained by its size. And they said, "We're very jealous of Europe Beamish, because you've got so much space.".

Kelly Molson: Just carry on. Well, the self sustaining thing is actually it's part of what we're going to talk a little bit about today. So think it was last season we had Matthew Henderson, come on, who was the former head of commercial operations there, and he talked quite a lot about creative ideas for driving commercial income. So all of the amazing things that Beamish have done to really kind of expand on the Beamish brand. I mean, I'm sitting here today and in front of me I've got Beamish sweets, I've got a tin of lovely Beamish jubilee sweets sitting in front of me. And Matthew talked a lot about the things that you did during lockdown and how to kind of connect with the audience when you couldn't be open, but just expand on that whole kind of product base that you have.

Kelly Molson: And that was something that I was super interested in when I came to visit Beamish as well. Because your gift shop is phenomenal, absolutely phenomenal. But all the way around the sites as well, the things that you can buy we talked about that immersive experience, but you can buy products where the packaging of those products, it hasn't just been created. It's been created from things that were in use and used as kind of branding back in the 50s and back in the18 hundreds. And that is just amazing. I guess I want to kind of just talk about Christmas. So we're on the run up to Christmas now, aren't we?

Rhiannon Hiles: We are.

Kelly Molson: I want to talk a little bit about how you drive revenue at what is often considered quite a quieter time of year for attractions because you've got quite a good process of doing that. Is that part and parcel of the hard work that you did during the pandemic to get these products developed?

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah. So just prior to the pandemic, Matthew and I, and Matthew talked to you about this. We had started to think about how we would turn the museum into a really good profit centre without us looking like were selling the collections, because obviously you've got to be really careful, we're a designated museum and all the rest of it. There are really easy ways to do that without it being a barrier. And we came up with all these sort of ideas and then went into pandemic, into the pandemic, and it sped it all up for us. The things which we've been thinking about, would we do it or would we not? We just said, "Look, we're going to do it because what else have we got to lose?". And Matthew did talk to you about that.

Rhiannon Hiles: So we entered into this, what are we going to be doing? What are we going to replicate? Who are we going to work with? What are the things we've already got? And Matthew had been working on, for example, the monopoly, he'd been working on that just prior to the pandemic. We just sold out of that during the pandemic because everyone was at home and wanted to buy board games. So we had thought, everything will sit on the shelves, but it didn't, it flew out. We didn't have an online shop, but then we suddenly did, like, overnight and so we talked about having an online shop and were sort of getting there and then went into pandemic and like a lot of folks, it just sped everything up. It really did.

Rhiannon Hiles: So some of the work which we've been doing, which was taking us quite a lot of time, I think the pandemic silver lining and people talk about the negatives and the positives of the pandemic. The silver lining for our retail and our product ranges was that it really allowed us to move swiftly through ways of helping the museum to be self sustaining through our immersive sales. When you were in the museum, you'd have been on the town street and we have stalls in there. It's a market town, you would expect to see stalls outside. And all of the products on there are all Beamish products and they've been made either in the museum or they've been made by local suppliers who then are only selling through us.

Rhiannon Hiles: Our ice cream is produced by a local ice cream maker, but the method and the flavours are only sold at Beamish. You can't get them anywhere else. So it's bespoke to us, but I'm thinking about how we move us into the next phase, which is all those things which we only sell. For me, there's a lot more that we can do in terms of we've talked about brand licensing, things like that, but in terms of the Beamish reach. So during lockdown, the Harrods of the North, Fenix contacted us and said, "Can we sell Beamish products?". And were like, "Yeah, Fenix have rung us up.". We were like, "Fenix are on the phone, we're so excited.". And we thought, "We're going to sell through Fenix.".

Rhiannon Hiles: But for me, that's the start of what we can do with our brand name becoming a high street name, but a high street name that has got some gravitas behind it. So I would want to make sure that we didn't sell ourselves out, we'd want to place ourselves in appropriate places, if that makes sense. So what I wouldn't want to see is that our brand became lessened because we'd maybe chosen the wrong partner or whatever that happened to be. But I think that the Beamish Museum brand is strong and I think it could stand on its own, two feet as a brand, not just at Fenix, and it does at Fenix, so that's brilliant. But elsewhere as well.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I've got some conversations lined up with folks to do with High Streets and how we can link up and partner with High Streets locally and perhaps that grows and develops as well, but also in terms of what we can do through our online sales, because we've lessened our impact there, I think. But that's probably because the items which people were buying at home during the lockdown, they can now go out and get, they can come into the museum and buy and they want that in the museum experience. But I think there's other things that we could do, like we have a lot of enamel signs and posters. We wouldn't need to hold all that stock in the museum.

Rhiannon Hiles: We can work with companies who can then just download that and then sell that, rather than us having to say we have this massive space where we just hold loads of stock. And for any museum, that's a challenge. Where do you store things, let alone where do you store shop stock as well? So I think at this stage we're on the cusp of something quite exciting, but we don't know what it is yet. But we've got showed Jamiejohn Anderson round, he's a good friend of ours, he's the director of commercial at National Museums Liverpool and he's brilliant. I use him as a bit of a mentor. He's great and I was walking around with him and he's done work at Warner in the past with the Butterbeer and all the can. What can we do?

Rhiannon Hiles: There's just so much lists and lists of things that you could brand license and you could sell and that would bring that in.

Kelly Molson: Does that make it harder, though, to make those decisions about what you do? Because there's so much it's so much that you could do. There's not an obvious kind of standout one, there's just vast reams of things that you could do.

Rhiannon Hiles: It is. And we've got a commercial manager who took over after Matthew left and she's brilliant and she's still in touch with Matthew. They talk a lot about how we would move this forward and which product comes first. And our collections team are really excited. I mentioned just now about the post, the railway posters and the enamel signs that we have. People would love those. And the collections team are like, "We need to do those first because they're brilliant and they're easy and we could do them.". So it does make it hard. And everybody has their own version across the museum about what they think we should do first. So, yeah, it is tricky. And we've just dipped our toe in. And there's other sides of things.

Rhiannon Hiles: When we enter into our accommodation, which will be the first time we've done this at the museum, we've done overnight camping at the museum for a while, and that's really successful. But to have our own self catering accommodation is coming on next year. And I would like to feel that if you're staying in one of those cottages that the soap, the welcome pack, the cushion, whatever that is, that you would be able to get that, but that it's bespoke to us. But you will be able and it's not at a ridiculous price either, that it's accessible to people, but that people will be able to get those items should they wish to.

Kelly Molson: This was something that was really exciting to me when I came to visit. Well, there's two facets to this. One that was were taken round a I want to say it was a 1940s. It might have been the 19 hundreds, actually. So forgive me if I've got this completely wrong, but there's an artist's house, 1950s house. Sorry, I've got it completely wrong. I said 40. So were taking around the artist house, and what struck me is how the design and the interior design of that house, how similar it is to things that I see now. So interior design is a bit of a passion of mine. It's something that I spend hours scrolling at, looking at, on Instagram. But there were things that were in that house that are now back in fashion.

Kelly Molson: So things, they just come full circle, don't they, with design? And so that was really interesting to me. And I remember at the time having a conversation and saying, "I'd buy that wallpaper that was on the wall. I would buy that wallpaper. I would buy that rug that they've got, that throw that was across the bed.". And it was just like, "Yeah, I absolutely would do that.". I know so many other people that would do that as well, who really want that authentic look in their house. I mean, this is a 1930s house that I live in, but I would love to have more kind of authentically 1930s elements to it. Art deco, mirrors, et cetera.

Kelly Molson: And you can kind of imagine that not only being popular with the people that come and visit, but actually extending that into, well, interior designers that are styling other people's homes. They haven't necessarily been to Beamish, but they know that they can get this incredible thing from Beamish because they know how authentic that's going to be. And then that translated into Julian telling me about the overnight stays. And I was like, "But I want to stay here now, I could stay potentially in this room.". How amazing would that be? That would really fulfill my interior design passions completely. So that's the next step for you?

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah, it is. It was the number one thing that came out of the market research that we did with people when were looking, just before we launched Remaking Beamish over ten years ago now. When went out and asked people what they would like to do, what's the most important thing to you? They all went, we want to stay in the museum. We want an Immersive, we want to be in it. So we thought, well, okay, we can do that. We thought about where that might be and it went through lots of different sort of ideas as to what it would be. It was going to be a hotel. And then we thought, "Is that going to work? Is it a hotel?". And then we had some buildings which had been unused and weren't part of any future development plan.

Rhiannon Hiles: A beautiful row of workers cottages and some stabling and courtyard up Apocalypse, which were outside of the main visitor area with already a courtyard, stabling and cart shed. So I thought, "Well, let's do it there.". Talked to the lottery. They were over the moon with that idea, because it's more environmentally sustainable, because they're existing buildings, brings more of the existing museum into the public realm and it gives us an opportunity to use areas which, to be honest, how would we do something with them going forward, but also enables people to stay in the museum. So a night at the museum, literally be it's going to be phenomenal. There's so many people saying, "I want to be the first tester of the first one that's open.". There's like a massive queue of people who want to come and be the first to stay.

Kelly Molson: I want to add my name to the list. I don't need to be the first. Put me on the list. What an amazing experience. I mean, you've lived in the museum, so you've actually done this yourself. But yeah, I just think to be able to extend your visit to do that would be phenomenal, because I know that you're building a cinema at the moment as well. So come in. Come for some dinner to the cinema.

Rhiannon Hiles: Exactly.

Kelly Molson: Stay overnight.

Rhiannon Hiles: Exactly. And we had some European museum friends across. We run a leadership program across the continent and ourselves, myself, Andrew and some others in Europe, and some of them were over last week and we did a lovely dinner for them up at Popley. And I didn't know if you got time to go up to Popley when you visited. It's beautiful up there. It is magical up there. And we have this young lad, he's been a trainee chef and he's brilliant. He loves historical recipes, he loves preparing in the old style. But to make it edible, to make it something which can then be eaten in a venue. And he spent ages thinking about what we would eat and how we would describe it. And it was beautiful.

Rhiannon Hiles: And as the light was going down, I thought, "This is what's going to be like for those folks who were going to be staying just across there, just right near Popley.". So I started thinking about all the ways we could make additional revenue. People will want to pay for this. They'll want to pay to have Connor come in and do them a period dinner while they're staying. There's so many other additional add ons that we can attribute to the overnight stay, should people wish to. I think that the list is endless. You've mentioned the cinemas, cinema nights, there's music, there's dance, different experience of different cuisine as well. I think there's so much that people will get from the overnight stay. Not least that you're going to be inside an exhibit staying overnight, which is really exciting in itself, isn't it?

Kelly Molson: It is magic when you think about it. And I think what's nice is the way that you talk about that. There's so much opportunity, but it's the opportunities that people want. You do a lot of work about, we're not just selling things for the sake of it. What does our audience really want? And you ask them and you get their feedback from them, which is absolutely vital. Something that you mentioned as well was the lottery. So you spoke to the National Lottery about funding for what you were doing, which is brilliant, because one of the things that we said we'd talk about today was, I always struggle to pronounce this philanthropic thinking.

Rhiannon Hiles: Philanthropic thinking?

Kelly Molson: Philanthropic thinking. I had to say that slowly, so I got it out right. So we know what philanthropy is, we talk about it. It's charitable works that help others as a society or as a whole. What does philanthropic thinking mean to you? And how do you use this approach to support the funding of new projects? Because that's vital for you, isn't it?

Rhiannon Hiles: It is, absolutely is. It's vital and we can and need and should do much more of it. And it's something which I'm exploring further. We have got a new Chief Operating Officer, we've got a new board, and I've talked to them about this and how this will help the museum to prosper for the future for our people. It'll allow us to invest in some of the what I would see as perhaps enough of us might say as core activity. So our learning program, our health and wellbeing program, our environmental sustainability. But to me, those are the things which make Beamish. They're the things which are about our communities and about our people.

Rhiannon Hiles: So if we can have partners who will invest in us to work on those strong elements of what makes Beamish then that will help us substantially because that will enable those programs to grow, to develop, to add value to people's lives. While we can then use our surplus that we make through our secondary spend, through our admissions to put into those things which people don't find as interesting. And I don't like the word when people say, "Oh, it's not sexy.". But people don't find toilets that interesting. But if you don't have good toilets in a visitor attraction, if your entrance is clunky, if the admissions and if you're walking around and everything looks a little bit like it looks a bit tired.

Rhiannon Hiles: So I think that all those things which are so fundamental to enhance the visitor operation but need to have that money spent on them, will be able to be spent on because we will have developed those other relationships. And I've seen really good examples just recently that have made me feel that there's a lot of opportunity out there. The Starling Bank has been sponsoring the whole summer of fun activity for National Trust. There's the wonderful philanthropic giving from a foundation to English Heritage to fund their trainees and apprentices. That's amazing.

Kelly Molson: That is amazing, isn't it? I've read about this numerous times now and I just think, one, it's a fantastic opportunity for people that are going to be involved, but what an incredibly generous thing to do. So those traditions don't die out?

Rhiannon Hiles: No, not at all. And I just feel that when there's more and more competition for less and less grants and foundations, which I get, and I understand that there's no point just sitting around feeling sorry for yourself on your laurels because all that will end up in is blah. And I've been in the museum where the museum sat on its laurels and expected things to happen and expected people to come and it didn't. And it had a downturn and you've got to be proactive. You've got to be the one who goes out there and talks to people and expresses what you can do, that you're a leading light.

Rhiannon Hiles: We're seen as a leading light in the north of England and that's because of the work that we do with our communities and the fact that we are a little bit we'll take risks, we're entrepreneurial and we're always thinking about how we can improve the museum, improve the offer and also be there for our people. Because fundamentally that's what we're about. Right at the beginning of this conversation, were talking about unpopular opinions and how when nobody was there, I was like, "Oh, it's quite nice." But then during COVID when nobody was there, it was awful because that's not what the museum is about. The museum is fundamentally there for people. People are what brings it to life. The hug, the buzz. It's about all of that dialogue that happens on a day to day basis and that's so important.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I think we already have folks who get really excited by what we offer. The Reese Foundation who are from an engineering firm, which is in Team Valley, already fund our STEM working program, because they get that. They get the work that we do. So that is an element of already successful pocket giving that we've had in the museum and I want to do more of that. We've got opportunity over the next period to really turn that around. And I think when you talk to Funders now, they expect a proportion of that to be happening. The Arts Council are talking to us about how you can be more philanthropic or work with philanthropic partners. And so even before were thinking or aware that they thought like that, we'd already had that in our mind, that's how we would work going forward.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I think that it isn't just about taking money, it's about having that relationship with the partner and showing how what they've invested in. And generally it'll be something that means something to them and that's why they've made that decision to do that. So if you can show back to them we've been working with a brilliant social enterprise locally called the Woodshed at Sacrosant, which is about getting young lads and lasses who aren't in mainstream education as they come out of skill, or maybe for them, it's not working. And they have done great work together and we have been doing work with them back in the museum.

Rhiannon Hiles: So those 1950s houses that you went into, they've done some of the woodwork inside there and they did the pitch and put golf and then they came along to the opening of the 1950s and two of the lads came up, they were like, "I like, you yelling. ". And I said, "I am. How are you doing?". They said, "I feel like this might be what you would call it, a graduation.". And I was like, "It's my last weekend.". And I thought, "Oh, it's exciting.". For him, it's also sad. But he said he was moving on to get another placement with a joiner. And I was like, "That's brilliant.". Another lad's gone on to do Stonemason up at Raby Castle. So it opens up pathways, it opens up journeys, it has so much benefit.

Kelly Molson: Oh, goodness, do you know what? That's so weird because that kind of goes full circle to what were talking about at the beginning, doesn't it? And you had all these different skills and then you brought them together and actually they all fitted really well into the museum sector. You've just done the same with these kids who have now got these skills and they're going to take them back into the heritage space. That's amazing.

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah, it's dead exciting. And sometimes people say to me, you're opening up opportunities, people are coming along and learning, and then they move on. And I'm like, "That's okay, that's absolutely fine.". If they come and learn here, and if there is something for them here, that's brilliant. If there's not, or for whatever reason they choose to go elsewhere, they're taking that skill set and they're still contributing to the economy, to their community, and that is brilliant. So I never look at it as kind of like, "Oh, why is that?". I look at it as like, "That is a real opportunity for them", for the museum and for the economy, for the region as well, for the visitor attraction.

Kelly Molson: Ultimately, with that in mind, that you want to get more people on board is a big part of your role actually going out and talking to organisations about what Beamish is? And if they don't know about you already, I'm sure that you are incredibly well known around Durham, but you have to go out and engage with those organisations to kind of see where those connections can be made. Have you got like, a targets list of..

Rhiannon Hiles: I want to go and talk to.

Kelly Molson: In front of these people and have these conversations, but I guess that's a creative element of what you do, isn't it, is making those connections and kind of looking and seeing how you fit with them?

Rhiannon Hiles: Yeah, it absolutely is. And I think there's other elements which are really critical for museums, for charities, for the sector, with regards to how those conversations can better enabled and how businesses can feel more comfortable in then donating or becoming part of. So some friends of mine who are in Denmark, it's very usual for big money making businesses, when they get to a certain threshold, they've got no choice. It's a government responsibility that you then have to choose a charity or a museum or a culture sector organisation that you give money to. So my friend Thomas, who runs a brilliant museum, has had a lot of his developments funded directly through a very big shipping company, who I probably won't be able to say now, but a huge shipping company fund their development, basically.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I was like he's like, "Oh, does this happen for you?". And I was, "No."

Kelly Molson: We have to go and hunt these people down.

Rhiannon Hiles: I was, like, brilliant. Could you imagine? Look, but for me, Bernard's brilliant because he can get in there into cabinet and he's a lobbyer and I think there's some additional work that we as individuals in the sector can do. So I've talked to Andrew at Blackcountry about this and what our responsibility is to help to change policy. And if nothing else, if you're part of that change and if you are able to voice how that will then impact on people's lives, then that is so important and so critical. It just depends on different parties approaches to what that impact on lives means, I suppose.

Rhiannon Hiles: But at the moment, with all the parties conferences going on at the moment, we've got the ideal opportunity to go along and listen, but also to have a little pointer in there and say, “Don't forget, and this is how important we are.”

Kelly Molson: That's a skill, isn't it, in itself? I can remember a conversation with Gordon Morrison from ASVA. Sorry, formerly from ASVA. He's now ACE, when we talked during the pandemic and he talked a lot about how he'd kind of taken some learnings from Bernard in the sense that Bernard, he's quite strong politically and he's a really good campaigner. And Gordon said that they were skills that he'd had to learn. He wasn't a lobbyer, it wasn't his natural kind of skill set. And I think it's really interesting that you said that, because that might not necessarily be your natural skill set either, but it's something that you've now got to kind of develop to be able to shape policy, because if there's an opportunity, take it.

Rhiannon Hiles: That's right. And it's not my skill set. But when you have a strong desire to see something work through change, and you can spot how that change can come about through having the right conversations, it's who you go to for the right conversations that can also be the skill set. So that can be quite tricky. And when were looking for our new board of trustees and when were looking for a new chair, one of the key things were looking for was somebody who would have that kind of skill set. And we have got that in our new chair. He really does know how to do that. So I constantly feel like, "Where's he going to now and who's he going to talk to next and who's he going to get me linked up with?".

Rhiannon Hiles: And that's brilliant and he knows how important that is. But we also know that we have to take it at the right gentle time. Yeah. So he can open doors. And I think that's so important. And our trustees, we've got a really strong set of trustees who can open doors for us. And again, that was deliberate in our approach that we took, to have a very diverse and representative board, to also have board members who can open other doors that we wouldn't normally be opening, because we have a strong set of doors. We open regularly and close regularly. But also the pace of it is so important that all of this is really needed. Because we're an independent museum, we got to make sure that we are self sustaining.

Rhiannon Hiles: Our main money comes from what we make on the door, but if we want to develop, we've got to make sure that we continue to get brilliant secondary, spend brilliant revenue. But on the other hand, we've got to make sure that we bring our people with us, whether they're the staff, the volunteers, our visitors. We don't want to be garping so fast that they're not behind us when we worry about Crown. So it's very exciting times.

Kelly Molson: Isn't it? Lots of exciting changes happening. Well, look, we can't have this podcast without talking about MasterChef either.

Rhiannon Hiles: Oh, yeah, that was brilliant.

Kelly Molson: So that's an incredible opportunity. So you're recently on MasterChef, where they came to Beamish. What an opportunity.

Rhiannon Hiles: Oh, it was amazing. But the thing was, they said, "You cannot talk about it, you cannot say anything.". So, literally, for months, were like, were dying to say that we've been a MasterChef. And they were like, you can't tell anybody. But I don't know how this managed to keep under wraps, because there was literally over 200 staff and volunteers were eating all the stuff that had been prepared. How they managed to keep that under wraps is beyond me, but at the minute seemed to work.

Kelly Molson: How long was it from recording to that going out as well?

Rhiannon Hiles: It was from February up until just the recent airing. So that's quite a long time to keep it to yourself.

Kelly Molson: Well done that team.

Rhiannon Hiles: It was really hard. Like I said, "Julie, when are they showing it because I can't keep it in any longer ", because it's Julie, who you met, who was nope. They've said, "It's tight lit, but it was brilliant.". And it's great for us, for the museum. It was great fun taking part, don't get me wrong. And I was in the local court recently and the lady behind the counter kept looking over and she went, "Are you a MasterChef?".

Kelly Molson: I wasn't cooking, but yes.

Rhiannon Hiles: Yes. So I think my new quest now, I'd like to be a presenter on Master Chef. I don't want to cook, but I'd quite like to be a presenter.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I could do that. I could do the tasting, not the cooking. The cooking under pressure. It's another level of stress, isn't it? I like to take my time, read the instructions.

Rhiannon Hiles: Don't need the pressure. It looked lovely, though. They'd used the school, they'd taken out all the benches that are in the school, in the pit village, and it turned into it looked beautiful. They'd use really lovely. I suppose they wouldn't call them props because they brought them in, but they were in keeping with the school. It looks so lovely. I mean, you probably watched it and that scene of all the staff of volunteers coming in to sit down to their meal, the lovely tables, the bunting they put up. It looked right. It was brilliant. Yeah. They had some interesting takes on some local cuisine as well. Peas Pudding ice cream was one strange one, but got peas in it, Kelly. You don't want it.

Kelly Molson: Giving that one a swerve in that one. Right. What book have you got that you'd like to share with our listeners?

Rhiannon Hiles: Oh, well, one of our trustees called Rachel Lennon, has written a really brilliant book called Wedded Wife, which is a great book, and I've just started reading it's about the history of marriage, and it's really interesting, so I would certainly advocate that one. I have a favourite book, which I go back to quite regularly, which is a childhood book and perhaps nobody ever would read it, but I love it and it kind of sums up for me what I was like as a child and what I continue to be like as I've gone through my career. It's called Wish For A Pony, and I really wanted a pony when I was between the ages of six and seven, and then I wished my wish came true. And from then on in, I believed that anything I wished for would happen.

Rhiannon Hiles: And I still have that kind of strange, I often think I'm just going to wish that to happen, but I think it's not just that, it's holistic. I think if you really want something and you set everything towards it, yes, of course some people might say, but then you potentially set yourself up for great disappointment and failure. But I kind of think that you can't do something without taking that risk. So I just tend to think if you want it and you wish for it that much and that's what you're really aiming for, just go for it and do it. And perhaps the environment in which I've been brought up has enabled me to do that. And I completely understand that for some people that is probably difficult and challenging. I do get that.

Rhiannon Hiles: So I feel that if I can help others who maybe haven't got that kind of environment to help them like those lads and lasses from the Woodshed at Sacrosanct and folks like that if we can provide spaces where they really want to try something but they're not sure how to do it then I think then we've achieved something.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's lovely. Do you know what? So I'm reading the book at the minute I've read the book Manifest, and it is about visualisation and the power of our thoughts and how we talk to ourselves and the things that we kind of want to bring into our lives. And there was a little bit of it that I was kind of going, "Is it the power of the universe?". It felt a little bit way woo to me, but then I kind of reflected on it a bit and went, but this is about taking action, really. It's about going, "I want this to happen in my life.". And it's not about sitting back and hoping that it might happen just because you've put a picture of it on your wall. It's actually about going out and doing the bloody hard work to make it happen.

Kelly Molson: So have those conversations with the right people who are the people that can open the doors for you. Go and meet them, ask out to them. And I think that's a really important element of the whole. Yes, you can wish for something to happen, absolutely. But you've got to put the legwork in to make it happen. What a great book. All right, Wish for a Pony.

Rhiannon Hiles: Wish for a Pony.

Kelly Molson: Listeners, as ever. If you want to win a copy of Rhiannon's book, if you go over to this podcast announcement on Twitter and you retweet it with the words, I want Rhiannon's book, then you'll be in with a chance of winning it. I'm maybe not going to show it to my daughter because I'm actually terrified of horses.

Rhiannon Hiles: You don't want a horse to appear in your garden.

Kelly Molson: Her cousins have got a pony. She can do it with them and not at home here. Rhiannon, it's been so lovely to have you on. Thank you. I feel like this is one of those chats that could go on and on for hours. So I want you to come back when the accommodation is open. Yeah, because I want to know all about that. I'm going to visit that cinema. But, yeah, I'd love you to come back on and tell us how it's gone once you've had your kind of first guest and stuff. I think that'd be a really great chat.

Rhiannon Hiles: I'd love that. All right.

Kelly Molson: All right. Wonderful. Thank you.

Rhiannon Hiles: Super. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you.

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enOctober 18, 2023

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