The Dareful Project

We’re a spicy group, says Grace Creative LA founder Susan Lee Colby, “teenagers with money.”
She says it with love—because she’s one of us and, as the founder of Grace Creative LA, she sees our potential. Susan points out Americans age 50 and up contribute so much to the U.S. economy that if we were counted as our own country, we’d constitute the world’s third-largest economy. Listen to this terrific conversation with Susan about how she and her team are shaking up marketing to the midlife+ consumer--otherwise known as middlescence--why Twiggy rocks and how fashion is making 45+ the New Hot Thing.

 

We’re talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey whose documentaries focus on the adventures of women over 60 including Beyond Sixty and her newest film, Climbing into Life. But like the women she features in her films, Melissa is unexpected. Find out more in our The Dareful Project conversation. Transcript: Debra Hotaling (00:05): Hello and welcome to The Dareful Project, a podcast series where we explore how cultural disruptors are re-imagining the second arc of our lives. If you like this episode, a gentle reminder to please review and share with your Dareful tribe. Today we're talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey, whose documentaries focus on women over 60 having great adventures and the women she features, Melissa is also having a great adventure and is really unexpected in all sorts of ways. We're going to find out how. Melissa, welcome! Melissa Davey (00:42): Thank you. It's so good to be here. Debra (00:45): So ground us. You did not start out as a filmmaker. How did you get here? Melissa (00:52): Oh boy. It's a long circuitous route. I will tell you, because I'm almost 74. So look at all of those years. I started out in nonprofits and maybe for 12 to 15 years, and then moved into the for-profit world and was a corporate executive for more than two decades, building and running a division of a large national company. And it was not my dream to do all of that, but it was where my route took me and things came before me and I grabbed them and I tried them and I did them and I enjoyed them. But honestly, when I was in the corporate world, I almost felt like an actor. I never would've chosen that for myself. But I just walked into it one day and it was a wonderful experience. But what happened was turned 65 while I was there, and I will tell you I was lucky that I was not in an ageist company. Melissa (01:59): There was no reason for me to leave at all. I could still be there today. There are many people, especially women in the company that are well over 65. But I hit that magic number 65, and I was reviewing my life and looking at the work that I was doing, and a bunch of things came together all at the same time. That kind of hit me in the head and I sat there saying, geez, is this it? Am I just going to die at this desk or what else I done? Good lord, I'm 65. I ought to take a look at that. So at the same time that I was thinking about my age and what else I wanted to do, the company was fought out again by venture capital. And I had been that through that rodeo a few times, and I knew that, oh my gosh, as one of the executives, I'm going to be required to sign up for another five years with this new sale. Melissa (03:01): And the CEO who I reported to said, think about it. What do you want to do? And it didn't take me long. I went to a meeting that week in DC, a congressional meeting for testifying about Social Security disability, which was a part of my job. And I remember sitting there thinking, my God, this is like deja vu, like Groundhog Day. I've been coming here for 20 years. The meeting isn't changing. What am I doing? Am I really making a change here? And so that was happening and work was happening, and I was getting older, and I was like, oh. So I left that day and I left early from DC I did not go back to work. I went and hung out with a friend when I got back here and she said, you need to come with me to pick up my daughter from school and then we'll go have some fun. Melissa (03:52): So driving up to pick up her daughter and take her to her horse barn after school, my friend said, I come here every day and I think they're making a movie over there. And I looked and there were lights and screens, and I was like, yeah. Oh my God, I love film and I've always loved film, and I am just so curious about it, how people made films, what it was like and what would it take and could I do it? I thought about that many times from the time I was a child. So there we are sitting on the side of the road and I said, I bet I know who it is, and she's looking at me, how the hell this could possibly be? And I said, well, it's a spooky looking setup, and it's an old creepy farmhouse, and it's Pennsylvania. It must be M. Night Shyamalan, it's got to be him. Melissa (04:46): And so he lives here and he does as scary movies and it looked like something he might do. So I pulled out my iPhone and I looked up his name and his website came up and on his website was a picture of where we were sitting. It was weird. It was this long driveway leading to a scary looking old farmhouse with all these crackly trees down the drive. And I'm looking at it and looking at his website and it says, M Night Shyamalan is making a micro budget film in Chester County, Pennsylvania. So I said, well, definitely it's him. And so there was a button on his website that said Charity Buzz, and I had never heard of that. So I hit it and it said, win a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan. No. And so my friend is, yeah. Melissa (05:41): So my friend is like, well, obviously you have do this. So all of the proceeds from the bidding would go to the Milan Education Foundation, which I was reading about while I was sitting on the side of the road by the crackly trees. And the foundation was phenomenal. It's worldwide and they do great work. So I said, okay, so I can justify betting money to try to win a day on the set with him. Short story, I won the bet, and after putting in a lot of money against a dentist in New Jersey, they picked me and I was sitting at work at my desk and I knew they were going to call it. So I had my iPhone up and I was doing my work and meetings and my iPhones up and Bing, it came through Melissa, Davey, you have won a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan . Melissa (06:32): And from there, within the month, I was with him for an eight to 10 hour day when he was filming his film, The Visit. And it was an amazing experience. I went there with absolutely no idea of what would happen. I figured he'd sit me in a seat and I'd get to watch. Well, he had me behind the camera asking me questions, telling me what he was doing. I was communicating with the crew. It was the most exhilarating experience I'd had in decades. I mean, it was amazing, so at lunch, yeah, Night and I were sitting together at lunch night. And he said, what do you do for work? And here I am trying to explain risk management insurance, social security, disability, blah, blah, blah, to this young guy, probably young enough to be my son if I'd had him very early. Melissa (07:38): And he had only been in film his whole life. So he kind of glazed over when I told him what I did. And he said, immediately, what do you really want to do? And I said, oh, I want your job. And he said, well, you better hurry up. And it was a silly conversation that today he would never remember, but it was when he said that, do you ever get that feeling in the pit of your stomach? Somebody just threw a brick at you. And I sat there and I thought, this is very odd that all of these circumstances have happened in this month with me thinking about work with me, going to DC with me, taking that afternoon off and going up the dirt road, and then sitting with him and him saying, well, what do you really want to do? And I just knew at that moment, I want to try to make a film. Melissa (08:34): And I went home late that night and my husband knew I was excited, and he was like, well, how did it go? And I said, John, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to be a filmmaker. And he is known me for a long time. So he kind of just looked at me curiously and said, oh, okay. And then the next day I went to the CEO and I said, look, I'm going to give you a very long notice, but I am going to leave the company and I'm going to make a film. So I did. I gave a year's notice because I needed to mentor somebody to take over something that I had created for the company. And during that time, I had the ability and the time to figure out how am I going to start this process of filmmaking that I've never had any connection to other than a love of film and a curiosity about how they're made. Debra (09:32): As you're describing this, I'm thinking that this is a romcom with your own life as the love interest. Melissa (09:40): Could be. I mean, it could be, I mean, is a pretty curious story. And it's funny how it all happened, but I also, I tell you all this because things like this happen to people every day. It does. People are thinking about what they want to do and something might stop them, or people meet somebody and they challenge them to think about something a little bit differently and they might ignore it. So to me, the signs are already there all the time, but are we really connecting to them and are we curious about them and do we see them and do we follow through? Yeah. Debra (10:21): Can we talk a little bit more about that? Because it makes sense when you tell the story. It's cinema, it's cinematic, and it's obvious that you had to do this thing. But I think in real life, many of us have those aha moments, but they're so tiny or there's so much noise, noise to info ratio going on in our lives that it's super easy to miss that or to be afraid of it or to go, I can't already, that weird roommate that's in our head all the time starts talking it down. Can you talk a little bit more? Did you feel any of that? How did you kind of work through it? Melissa (11:00): Yeah, I really didn't. It was almost like a gut reaction. And I think that because I was older, maybe if I had, honestly, if I was 50, I probably would've said, oh my God, I can't do that. I have all these responsibilities and I have this, and I have that and my job and making money and saving money for the future. I think that if I had been younger, I would've let those voices stop me. But because I was older and because I was already thinking about change, I was more open to it. So seeing the signs, I see signs all the time, and I've seen them my whole life and many I did ignore, and I think back and I wonder, well, what if I had gone down that path? What if I had taken that detour? Would I have been doing something else today? Would my life look different than it does today? Probably, probably. But for the most part, when you are stopped, I think from going forward with any curiosity you have about a subject or something that's placed in front of you for sure, and it's usually around fear like, well, I don't know how to do that. I'm not trained to do that, so I'll just forget about it. I think that happens most of the time, most. Debra (12:25): So you decide to go, and then here's the big leap. So you're like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be a filmmaker. And then you think, what's next? What do I do? What did you do? Melissa (12:39): Okay. I knew logically from building businesses and creating teams that I needed people to help me. I needed people smarter than me that knew the film industry that would be able to help me make this happen. So I immediately started reaching out to anybody that I knew that had a connection in the Philadelphia area with filmmakers, producers, and I was introduced to a group in Philly and thought, well, this will be my first meeting and I'll throw it out there, see what they think, and maybe they will suggest somebody that I could meet with. Well, they liked the idea of the project. I already had the project in my head the day after I decided I was going to try to become a filmmaker. So I gave it to them and they said, wow, we would really like to do this with you. And that was Expressway Productions. And they were mostly young men, mostly, and I mean younger than my kids. And I thought, well, this is going to be interesting. They're going to be working with me, and I'm going to be the learner. And I was always the top dog boss. They're now going to be the boss showing me how to do this so that I can create something that makes sense. And so for the next almost three years, we worked together on the Beyond 60 film, and it was an incredible, incredible experience. Debra (14:10): So give us the pitch. What was the first project? Melissa (14:15): The first project is Beyond Sixty, and it is a documentary film telling the stories of nine women. And these nine women are from all over the country with completely different stories. They range in the age between 63 and 87, and really were highlighting their resilience, their life stories, and their continued relevance. So my goal was to say, look, if I'm going to become a documentary filmmaker, which I thought was the safest thing to do, I wasn't ready to write a script and try to do it that way. I thought, well, I'll tell real stories because I am a storyteller. I did it in business, I've done it in life, and it's comfortable for me, and people are usually comfortable telling me their stories. So I thought, well, what better to talk about than somebody like me, an older woman who's made changes in their lives, who've had good times, bad times, but they're still relevant and they're still doing new things and here's what they're doing. Melissa (15:19): And to put them out there on the big screen and tell the world that we are still relevant, we should not be ignored, we should not be invisible. And just because our looks change doesn't mean that our curiosity changes or our ability to do work and to do it better than we did when we were younger. So that was my whole goal of putting that out there. And it was an amazing experience doing it, and it made me realize that this process was really fun. It was difficult to learn in spots, but most of it was logical, and I guess I should do it again. So I'm on my second film now. Debra (16:07): And tell us about the second film. Melissa (16:10): The second film is Climbing Into Life, and it's in final stages of post-production right now. It just got the okay clearance review from my lawyer, and we're locking everything down this week, and it should be out for sound and color correction in the next couple of weeks and be ready to submit to film festivals in March. And climbing into Life is a story of one woman, and this time it's a woman who, she's now 72 years old, and she is the oldest woman to have climbed El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. And she just happens to be the mother of Alex Honnold of Free Solo. So if anybody has watched Free Solo, this is his mother, and her story is remarkable. And filming her was a joy and so much fun. And once again, another story of an older woman saying, look, I never did this before, but I became curious about it. So I thought I would try. And by doing baby steps, I led myself to be able to do this. And it's an incredible story, incredible story. Debra (17:26): You and I were talking about this before we started recording. I had the privilege of interviewing her back in 2021 for The Dareful Project, and she is incredibly smart. I loved our interview in fact, because there were a couple of questions where she's like, that's not a very good question. Here's what you should be asking me. And I just loved that there was a real high bar for any discussion that I had with her. Melissa (17:49): That is Deirdre! Debra (17:52): I'm like, okay, I'm bringing my A game for our convo. But folks should also know that she wasn't always climbing with Alex. She didn't start until later on. Melissa (18:05): She was in her sixties when she was 66 when she did the climb. So she didn't run until she was in her very late fifties and running started, and her daughter got her started running, and then she was so curious about what Alex was doing from a fear standpoint. She was like, I don't understand what this kid is doing, but I'm curious, so maybe he'll show me. And he was just showing her the Rock gym, the climbing gym, and that give it a try, mom, see what you can do. And she fell in love with it, and she's a very inwardly challenging individual, and she kind of liked it, and she knew she was weak in spots, but she thought, I can do this. Well, this would be a cool thing to do. So that led to, Hey, Alex, how about taking me up that huge rock? Melissa (19:01): And he's like, sure, mom, we can do that. And so she trained for many, many, many weeks in order to be able to make that climb. And she talks about how difficult it was. It was not easy for her because she was never an athlete. She was only an academic in so many ways, an artist, a musician, speaking several languages, an amazing a writer. She's an amazing woman. But to be able to in your later years become an athlete of sorts is remarkable. And it just goes to show you when you watch her, and I was with her in Yosemite and I was watching her climb, and she doesn't do it the way young people do. It's a difficult process, and she makes it very clear that I'm not trying to compete with the kids. I'm competing with myself, and I want to get to this point. So here, what do I have to do logically to get there? So her way of climbing might be different than somebody who's 35 and fit and climbs all the time, but she is so determined to do what it is and that she wants to do it and to get to the place she wants to get to that she does. And it's a remarkable story. Debra (20:19): I love what you just said because I'm reflecting on, I rock climb also badly, but super fun. But I climb with a lot of folks who are in their twenties and thirties, and so you're there and they're like, oh my God, I got to make this 5.11, whatever it is. And I realized I have a completely different metric of what success looks like. It's getting up there, it's sort of sitting with my fear. It is so much more robust and more interesting than just clicking a box. I love doing things now more than ever because I don't care about what I was supposed to measure myself against. It's a crazy feeling. Melissa (21:04): And that comes with age and experience, and that you realize that each one of us on the planet are completely different. So to put ourselves in a box where we say, in order to be considered a successful climber, you must be able to do this in so many hours or whatever. It's ridiculous. It's everybody's going to do it at their own pace and with their own little whatever it is that they need to help them get to that point. And that's the success. Getting to that point. Doesn't matter how long it takes or what you used to get there, like Deirdre talks about Mars and you know what Mars are and laddering yourself up that mountain. A young climber might say, well, that's not climbing. Well, I would argue she got to the top of El Capitan. I stood at that bottom, looking up at that monolith. It's amazing. And she got to the top and she got there in 13 hours. And I still, to this day, when I look at her and I look at how she climbs in her body, I don't know how she did that. It's an amazing feat to me. But she did it. And it doesn't matter if it was 13 hours or 50 hours or whatever, she got to the top. That's the success point. Debra (22:35): Amen. And you're like Jimmy Chin here of Free Solo because you were there too, except you're behind the camera. So tell us a little bit about that adventure. Melissa (22:45): Yeah, that was now, we were not there when she climbed, so we filmed her later after the climb was completed, but she has continued to climb throughout the world. And I spent five days with her in Yosemite and watching her climb, and I had a videographer with me that was a climber. So the climber, I didn't go up on the rocks with the camera. I had a climber videographer do that, and I was down at the bottom and doing all of the interviews and whatnot with her when she was on the ground or not too far up on the rock. And it was an amazing experience to have to be able to, I had to walk, I think it's a good mile into the bottom of El Capitan where you would begin to climb. And I remember the young climbers and the videographer saying to me, oh, no, no, no, it's just over there. Melissa (23:47): It's not going to be anything. It's no big deal. We'll meet you over there. So we start walking and we're walking, and then it starts, you're climbing, you're going up, and I'm like, are we going to go up there? What's going on? And so I was tripping and climbing over boulders that were as big as my house to try to get up to this point where the climbers start to climb. And I remember being out of breath, and I remember stopping to sit on rocks to catch my breath and thinking, oh my gosh, this is incredible. You have to build a complete sweat before you even get to the point where you start to climb. So I was completely impressed that she was able to make that mild trek and then start climbing so that I could watch her. And it was just an amazing, amazing experience to be in the beauty of Yosemite, which I have before, but I had never seen it in this light. I had never been there with climbers or gotten the history of Al Capitan and really felt connected to the climbing community there. It was just a beautiful experience. Debra (25:04): Oh my God, I can't wait to see this. Your own journey, though. It's hard enough to be a filmmaker, a documentary filmmaker, and to be a woman filmmaker. Tell us a little bit about what has surprised you along this journey? Melissa (25:21): What surprised me along the journey? Well, I don't know if it was a surprise. I kind of anticipated that being an older woman in this field trying to launch a first film or a second film, was not going to be well received. Not with people with balloons and megaphones saying, yay, go, this is awesome. I knew that was going to be a bit of a struggle, and it proved to be true. And when you get to the distribution stage and you're trying to find people who will talk to you, an unknown older woman about a film, about older women, there is not a huge audience that's ready to greet you. So it is a struggle to not feel bad about that, just accept it as the way it is, and try to figure out the back doors into companies and introductions to people that you need to make. And it's harder, I think it's harder to make those connections. And there aren't that many distributors that are run by older women. So you're constantly up against contacting distributors that have very young men who seem to be at the helm. And when you tell them what your film is about, it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, we'll take a look at it and let you know. So it took a long time to get a distributor… Debra (26:57): …but you did… Melissa (26:58): But I did, and not, am I thrilled with how the distribution has gone or what the distribution strategy is? No, but it was a real eyeopener as to what independent filmmakers have to go through in order to market their film. Because most of the distributors today for independent film put you on streaming platforms. And I am very grateful that I have a distributor that did that for me, and I'm on most all of the platforms, and the film gets seen, but they don't market it for you. So they charge a lot, but they don't market it. So you're stuck with continuing to find ways to get your film out in front of audiences that you think might enjoy it or be inspired by it. So it's a continual, the film's been done for three years, but I still continue to market it and speak in front of women's groups and whoever it is that wants to see the film can also have me there as a q and a after the film is seen. So I do a lot of that as well. And I will continue to do that with climbing into life. With the second film, I won't go the same route. The first route of going with an agent and a distributor was a learning experience for me because I had never done it before. This time around, I'm producing on my own, directing on my own, and hopefully figuring out how to find a distribution channel on my own so that I can keep a little bit more of the money that I threw into this wonderful project. Debra (28:46): How has these two projects changed your perspective on women and aging? Melissa (28:54): I've had the fortunate opportunity to work around a lot of older, very successful, active women. So I've known all along that women are capable and even more capable as long as they have their health more capable as they age. Meaning that their experience bucket is so full that no matter what challenge you put in front of them, they're able to call on something from the past that they experienced that helps them resolve whatever it is in front of them today. Very different from the time when I was 35, and my experience bucket was much smaller then. So I would not have the confidence level I think that I have today in my mid-seventies that I would've had, that I had in my 35 to 40 range. And I am able, and all of the women that I speak to are able to do tremendous new things in their lives. Melissa (30:01): They're not just doing what they were trained to do or what they have done for the last 30 years. They're doing new things and they're doing them in a big way. So I think what I have learned is that there is no age limit, and we should be promoting that as much as possible. And that's what I'm hoping that the films do that when maybe an older woman is sitting in front of the films thinking, I'm done. I retired from my job that I had for 40 years, and I guess that's it. I'll volunteer or do something. But maybe by watching these films, some of the women will inspire them to say, well, gee, I never thought about that. I never thought about that dream that I had as being a real possibility. And that's hoping to encourage women to at least have those conversations, not just with themselves, but with other people to help them see that there is a path to making change or making something new and trying something new. Debra (31:13): And I think we have a lot of guys who tune intoTthe Dareful Project as well. So this isn't a woman only conversation. This is for all of us… Melissa (31:22): Right? All of the men that I know that are over the age of 60, the message is the same to you. And I know many who have watched my film and were inspired by it. And I know many older men who are doing really cool things in their sixties, seventies, eighties, they're not stopping. I just wanted to really get women's voices out there, not to exclude the men, but because I think the invisibility of women is honestly much greater than it is for older men. So that was my purpose for really just the spotlighting of older women. Debra (32:01): And what you're talking about really resonates with me because you see, or you don't see women doing amazing things because they're just quietly being badass. They just go and they do their things. And so you may see them in the wild and not think, oh my God, look at you and what you're doing right now. They don't kind of care if you notice them or not because they're out having their adventure. Melissa (32:24): Exactly. I mean, there really is an invisibility factor. I mean, it definitely is there. Women become a bit invisible from the male gaze specifically as they age. And because of that, nobody sees what it is that they're doing. And because we are women and we're brought up for the most part, thinking that we should be quiet, polite, nice, not brag, not say what great things we're doing, it does go unnoticed. And if you stop seriously walking down the street, if you walk past me or another older woman, you're not going to know what their story is. And you're not going to turn your head and turn back and look and say, gee, I wonder what their story is. Now, if they were 30, maybe you would turn your head and say, wow, she looks really interesting. Wonder what her story is. Well, I'll tell you, the richer story is with the older woman, and we have to start listening to some of those stories to help us understand who we are, the choices we make, and what our possibilities are for the future. Debra (33:38): And what if those possibilities includes being an artist? What advice would you give for someone who has that hunger? Melissa (33:48): For me, it was making a list. Whatever your magic age is where you start to go, oh, do I really want to do this anymore? Or gee, I need to make a change. Gee, it's near retirement time. Am I going to just sit down and relax and play golf? Or what am I going to do? I encourage people to make a list of all of the fantasies that they've had in their life. I want to be a horse trainer. Or for me it was, I want to play the saxophone. I want to be a filmmaker. I had all these crazy ideas of things that I could see myself doing, but that I had no training in. Saxophone went down to the bottom when I realized, well, I don't read music, so I would have to learn how to do that first. And I think that's going to take a while. Melissa (34:40): So I think I'll put that down here, and maybe I'll do that in my eighties, I don't know. But if filmmaking just kept coming to the top, write a book, play the sax, make a film, and the filmmaking kept coming up. So whatever comes to the top of your list, don't ignore it, don't write it off. Start talking to people about it. Talk to a coach, talk to a counselor, talk to friends, talk to colleagues and say, I've always wanted to do this. What do you think? And you'll be surprised at how many people say, well, I've known you for 20 years. You can do that. You could easily do that. You have the tools in your kit to figure out how to do that, and I know somebody I can put you in touch with that. You can talk with a little bit more about this thing that you're interested in to just keep you on track. And I really encourage people, make the list. Find the thing that you're really interested in, and what harm is it to sit down and talk to people about it and see if you can take that first baby step to get to understanding whether it's a realistic idea or not. And if you do come to the point where it's unrealistic, go to the next thing on your list. But talking with people is probably the most helpful thing in anything in life when you're trying to make a decision about something. Debra (36:11): And having the courage to ask, because that is kind of the other superpower I notice of men and women our age, which is we know people and we know things, and we don't have to elbow everybody out of the way to get the next promotion. So it's all about making, oh my God, you totally have to know this person or make sure that you do this or Look, it's much more generous I find, at this age. Melissa (36:36): Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And for the most part, people our age don't feel intimidated with the ask. I don't care if somebody says, go away. I'm not going to take your call. Or, okay, I'll just go on to the next person. Where when I was younger, number one, I'd be afraid to make certain calls because I thought that they were going to say, go away. So sometimes I was frozen in time and unable to make that business call, whatever it may have been, or just crushed when they said no. Now when somebody says no, I'm like, okay, that's cool. And you kind of go on to the next person until you find somebody that is interested in your story and listening and maybe giving you some advice or handing you off to that next person that's going to help you. Definitely older people, men and women want to help one another move forward. It's a beautiful thing. Debra (37:36): What is going to be your next project? I know you're still in post-production on the current project, but are you already eyeing the next subject? Melissa (37:45): I'm going through this thing again where I'm making lists of do I want to continue making films or was there something else besides the saxophone on the list that I might want to try? And the reason that I'm kind of in angst about that is because I'm approaching 74 and it's kind of like, okay, if I'm going to do another big thing, another big change, how long will that take? And how long do I have? So I am feeling that pressure of how long will I be healthy and able to make big changes? So should I try to fit a whole bunch of things into that time or just stick with this? And my curiosity is big enough to say that I interested in writing a book, so I may do that, but I'm also interested in doing a short film. I've never done a short film. I've done two features. Maybe I could wedge in a little short film while I start this idea that I have for a book. Debra (38:51): So before we leave each other, what is the one thing that we all could do today, the tiniest little step that would move us in the direction of that top of the list idea that we have? Melissa (39:11): I think the one thing that we can do is sit down in quiet in meditation with ourselves and really ask ourselves, are we happy with where we are today? Is there anything we've left undone or unsaid? And do we want to try to figure out what that is? And I think the only way we come to those conclusions or ideas is by sitting still and by allowing ourselves to understand that no matter what we've done up until today, it isn't the end. And that there's always opportunity to do something new. And if there's some detours out there that we could take to help us find that, we need to start doing that today. And I think that that can lead you at least to the comfortable notion that you do have ideas and desires inside of you, and that fear is probably the biggest thing that's holding you back at this point. Melissa (40:17): As long as you have your health, I always put that in there. You have to be healthy enough to move to that next step. But to get rid of any fears that hold you back from trying something that you've never tried before, you have to address that. And you can't always address that by yourself. So reaching out to a coach or a counselor or a friend or someone that you can talk about as to why you might be stuck is very, very helpful and very important, and the first step in making the decision to try and do something different. Debra (40:55): I love that. Okay, Melissa, where can everybody find your films and you and keep track of you? Melissa (41:05): Okay. You can go to beyond sixty.com and you will figure out who I am on that website and get a feel for the film, and it will direct you as to where you can watch the film. The film is currently streaming on Apple tv, prime Video, Vimeo Voodoo, Google tv. It's on most of them. It's on transatlantic flights, so you can find the film there. You just type in beyond 60 SITY into the search bar on any of those streaming platforms, and you'll find it climbing into life. Like I said, will probably be submitting to film festivals in March. And at the same time, I'll be doing my research on how to get it distributed, and you can come to my website on Beyond 60, and there will be information in there as to when the film will be dropped. Debra (42:00): Wonderful. Melissa, thank you so much. Melissa (42:03): Thank you. I loved being here. It's great to meet you. I look forward to seeing Debra (42:07): You. Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Is it ever too late to get healthy? It’s always possible, says Susan Guidi, who went from soft bod to bodybuilder in her 60s. We talk about limiting beliefs that get in the way of reaching our health goals, why lifting weights is so important and what happens when we ask the question, “If I can do this, what else is possible?”

How to find Susan:

Instagram: @kikimousegetsfit

We all face moments where we feel stuck. Becky Vollmer sees you. Vollmer is a speaker, journalist, yoga teacher and author of You Are Not Stuck: How Soul-Guided Choices Transform Fear into Freedom. We talk about how we get stuck—in our job, relationships, health-related choices—and what we can do right now to move forward. She reminds us that intention without action is just wishful thinking.

How to find Becky:

You Are Not Stuck website

Facebook

Instagram

Threads

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project, a podcast series where we explore with cultural disruptors, how to reimagine the second arc of our life. I'm your host, Debra Hotaling with a reminder: if you like this episode with please like, review and share with your Dareful tribe. Today's guest is Becky Vollmer. She's a speaker, writer, yoga teacher, and author of a wonderful new book called You Are Not Stuck, how Soul Guided Choices Transform Fear Into Freedom. Becky, welcome. 

Becky Vollmer (00:41):

Oh my dear. Thank you so much for having me.

Debra (00:44):

So we got a lot to cover. So ground us here. What was going on with you that prompted you to write this terrific book?

Becky (00:54):

Oh, mercy, that I have to go back a little bit in history because the actual writing of the book was a, we'll call it a multi-year project, and I probably have to define multi as about seven. I think that was the time it took to live and feel and absorb and integrate everything that went into it until the actual writing part was months long. But the living that led up to it was years. I'll say the best way to describe it very succinctly was that in a period of about three years, there were some back to back to whammies. I left corporate America of my own volition after decades of dreaming and never doing. About a year later, I finally had a reckoning about my relationship with alcohol and decided it was time to give it up for good. And I'm proud to say that I, I'm now celebrating 10 years sober.

Becky (02:13):

And then the third thing that happened within that three year period was that my marriage of about 10 years absolutely imploded and disintegrated in a way that I did not see coming. And so it was one of those things that knock you flat and then take an awfully long time to kind of peel yourself back up off the ground and begin walking again. So the actual, the idea for the book and the beginnings of plotting and scheming and writing the book happened within the first six months of leaving the corporate world. And then as life intervened and life demanded to be lived, it got pushed a little farther away. But I will say, I think that not only is the book better for it, but I am better for it because I had more time to practice the tools that I knew had helped me and would help me again. And I think just the lived experience is richer and richer and richer because of it.

Debra (03:25):

Did you know the tools when you were writing the book or did writing the book present the tools?

Becky (03:31):

Absolutely, yes, both. The answer is both. I will say that the premise, one of the underlying premises of the book is based on finding freedom in what I would call with a yoga mindset. And that is something that I had been at the time, I had been practicing yoga for, oh my gosh, by then almost 10 years, more than 10 years teaching for almost 10 years. And so those philosophies, those underlying credos were already sort of baked into my consciousness. Things like impermanence and non-attachment, but nothing is a better teacher than lived experience. And so I'd had the ability to apply that to one area of my life, the professional area of my life, but hadn't yet been able to apply it in ending a marriage that was a decade old. And I think even more the bigger teacher than that was the choice to eliminate alcohol from my life because that's something that had plagued my family for generations. I feel like I'm kind of the first generation cycle breaker in that regard in my family. And that one choice has opened up so many others that I never could have seen around the corner. And so to get back to your question, I would say some of the tools were there. Some of them I was in process learning, and some of them, oh my gosh, Deborah, some of them are still being revealed.

Debra (05:32):

It's easy to talk about it and it sounds linear and you have these building blocks and not you, but we have these building blocks and we are just like, okay, I'm just going to turn this one on and that one on and I'm going to be better. But it's way messier than that. For whatever reason we're stuck, whether it's professionally in our personal life, an addiction, spiritual growth. Talk to us a little bit about how you get out of the messiness and figure it out.

Becky (06:07):

Oh boy. I could talk on that question alone for six days and fact, I just came off of leading a four day yoga based retreat. And really that's what we talk about. How do we recognize where we're stuck? How do we recognize how that makes us feel and what it makes us do? How do we, it's always very easy to recognize what's not working, but what is involved in taking stock of what we want instead. It's not as simple as, oh, when I was a kid, I wanted to be an astronaut, or if I could give it all up, I would be, I'd shave my head and become a monk in Nepal. Yes, NASA is an option, Nepal is an option, but for most of us more realistically, the question is how do we better become rooted in our emotional states and rooted in our values? And I guess a simpler way of saying that is how can we learn to answer the questions? How do I feel and what do I need? And then actually have the courage to bring those answers into reality. And I tell people a lot, people say, oh, I just have to be braver. I am so filled with fear. I just have to learn to be braver. And my perspective on that is it's just a little bit different. It's that the opposite of fear isn't just courage. The opposite of fear is choice.

Becky (08:00):

And so from that place, being able to recognize we do all have choices to make, we do all have choices to contemplate that present themselves. Where we have to get brave is in finding the courage to actually make them.

Debra (08:24):

Tell me more about that, because choice is fascinating to me. I once heard a TED talk about making difficult choices, and part of it is making the choice. And then the second part is just going, except having agency that you go, I made the choice, now I'm owning whatever this is. I don't know if it's bad or good yet, I'm just going to own it. What do you see folks, or what have you gone through? What have you seen folks that you've been coaching go through when they are going from I need to be brave to, I'm going to make a choice.

Becky (08:56):

To me, if taking the front end of your question, I think a lot of people are missing the agency piece. They're missing the permission piece, they're missing empowerment. So several years ago when I first left the PR world and people congratulated me, oh, you are so brave. You decided you left. You didn't have a net plan B, oh God, I wish I could do what you did. And I remember thinking, oh girl, I was not brave. I didn't feel brave at all. I felt, in fact, I felt a little bit like a failure. I felt like, oh, I didn't have the grit within me to have what it takes in a very stressful, chaotic world, which of course was, I mean, that's a mindset issue, right? Yes. There was part of me that took issue with the fact that the world was misted, right? Nobody's really able to function well and sustainably in that kind of an environment over time.

Becky (10:08):

But the issue was that I took it personally and I thought it was a personal deficiency, and so therefore I felt like I didn't have choices. I felt like I was just backed up against the wall and there was really no good way out. But once that really settled with me for a while, and I did begin to understand there was a lot of bravery that went into that choice because it was kind of, there's a little bit of thumbing my nose at status quo, why would you leave something that looks so good on paper?

Becky (10:51):

So that got me really curious, big picture, why we collectively tend to stay put in situations where we are miserable and we could ostensibly make another choice. And so I put some research out into the field, and of course, this isn't the kind of statistically valid peer reviewed appearing in a journal kind of research, but several hundred people over time, more than a thousand people have taken this survey. And some of the questions I was getting to revealed what I now call the empowerment gap. So just to put some numbers around that, about six out of 10 people felt like they were ready to make a change, but then the number of people who said they felt empowered to change, oh, Deborah, it broke my heart. It was about 14% of people. So you've got 60%, something's got to change. And then 14% saying, I feel empowered to do this. And so it's within that space where if we can close that gap, it becomes much more easy for us to claim the agency that is ours and make the choices that we need in order to have the lives we want. But it's in that sense of I don't feel like I have the permission to do what I want. I don't feel like I've got the agency to choose for myself. And that to me, that's where the big tension is.

Debra (12:33):

I wonder though that we'll never feel empowered until we actually do this thing. We're scared to death. And then looking back, we go, oh, I was empowered to do that. Not sure I would ever feel ready. I kind of do the thing. And then looking back, I'm like, oh, I did actually do that thing.

Becky (12:54):

Yeah, I think there's a lot of empowerment in momentum. There's a lot of empowerment in having proven to yourself that you can, what I find is a necessary precursor to that is always coming back to our why. And that's the piece that I believe a lot of us tend to skip over. We think it's an issue of just taking action for action's sake as opposed to taking the most aligned action we can. And notice I say aligned and not strategic. Nobody would have told me it's a strategic choice for you to walk away from a partner track job a month before they're about to announce the next round of partners. That was maybe not the most strategic choice I'd ever made, but it was the most aligned choice I could have made. And the reason I was able to do it, in addition to feeling backed up against the wall was because I sat with my values long enough to recognize that they had evolved while I wasn't paying attention.

Becky (14:13):

I write about this in the book, and I cannot tell you how important, I mean, this is such a light bulb moment when I talk about this in workshops and retreats, the idea that values really shift when we're not paying attention. And then all of a sudden we reach a point in our lives and we're like, wow, I've been living by one set of rules that I didn't write when really if I was writing my own set of rules, I'd be doing things much differently. And the way we can see how it's easy to get there is just to look back in time, you are a baby. You are born into your family of origin, the circumstances in which you grow up, and either in a spoken way or in an unspoken way, just by observing people, it becomes pretty clear, this is how we do things around here.

Becky (15:11):

This is what's important to us. And then you get a little older and you go off to school. Maybe you go to a religious school. Maybe you go to a private boarding school in Switzerland. Maybe you're shipped off to military school. Maybe you're at the public school around the corner, no matter where the environment is, again, you sort of begin to observe and you get to absorb, this is how we do things around here. And you can play that forward in all these other scenarios. You go to work and again, said or unsaid, that company has a set of values. Maybe later you partner up with somebody. That person has a set of values that date back all the way to their family of origin, their faith community, their activities, their school, their professional experience. And when you partner up, some of us will have an honest conversation about, okay, how do we meld our values? How do we make sure that nobody's gets lost in the shuffle? But I think what happens so much more often, especially for women, is that we will find ourselves in our forties, fifties, sixties, and it's like we get hit upside the head with this frying pan of realization that is, oh my gosh, I've been living by everybody else's values than my own.

Debra (16:55):

I wrote down the evolving while not paying attention. The not paying attention feels. That is really an important point. So you talk with a lot of folks in your retreats through your book. What are some of the tools that you find are most helpful as folks are just coming to that, the frying pans just hit upside the head? What happened? What's next?

Becky (17:29):

What's next is that we tend to get really honest about the fears that have been holding people back, whether consciously or subconsciously by fears. It's not like, oh, I'm afraid of spiders, so I can't make any big choices. But when we can identify this whole universe of fears that are really common to a lot of us, I have fear of failure. I have fear of being judged harshly. I have fear of being criticized. I have fear of being under-resourced, whether financially, emotionally, in the daily necessary work of my life, I have a fear that I'm going to be ostracized. I have a fear that somebody's going to call me crazy. I have a fear that I might sacrifice the wrong thing at the wrong time. I have a fear that I don't know what the heck I'm doing. I have a fear that I dunno how to do it. Or the one that I think underpins a lot of us is if I make the wrong choice, I will somehow end up alone.

Becky (18:54):

I will somehow understand this lifelong narrative in my mind that I'm not worthy of choosing for myself. And that's not something, that's not something that usually emerges to the top of consciousness, right? That a sense of unworthiness. But when we start to examine and poke holes at things and reveal what's a little deeper, it's almost like picking up a rock. And you look at what's under there and it's all these nasty creepy crawleys. Our first instinct is just to slam that rock back down. Meet my friend Sadie Jane. Hey, Sadie. I think Sadie's announcing the presence of the Amazon ferry. So we want to slam that rock down, but really, if we can sit with the creepy crawlies, the thing that we least want to look at, we will and view it with some compassion. We begin to understand that there are some deep reasons why we are afraid of change and that they are universal.

Becky (20:13):

It's so powerful to sit in a room full of people where we bring these issues up and you just see the heads nodding and the hands kind of going up and just all of these ways that we reinforce. Yeah, me too. I'm scared too. But then after we sort of marinate in the fears for a while, to me the only, oh, I shouldn't say the only. To me a very powerful antidote to being mired in our fears is to recognize that, and this is where the yoga philosophy comes in, but that we are more than this meat suit packaging that we're wearing, right? I come back to this epic quote, and I wish I could tell you it was from Rumi or Heis or someone. It's not best as I can tell. It was from a dude on Twitter who went by the handle pork beard. But pork beards, very wise words were you're a meat coated skeleton made of stardust. What do you have to be scared of?

Becky (21:28):

And that really is, I mean, that is yoga philosophy translated for the modern age. You are a meat coated skeleton made of stardust. What do you have to be scared of? And so when I find that when people realize, wait, you're telling me I'm stardust. You're telling me I'm stardust and by stardust, for me, that really is shorthand for whatever you want to call that big energy out there, around there, up there, wherever it may live for you. But that's shorthand for I'm the universe. I am infinite, I am God. And so in the retreats that I do, I love it when people absorb the idea of stardust as new language that they can take with them back into their lives. And I get messages from people all the time with this, just the new found empowerment that comes from this new found confidence that they are stardust. And boy, don't you look at your choices a little bit differently when you think you are made with the stuff of God or the universe instead of those creepy crawly fears that you don't want to look at.

Speaker 3 (23:05):

Yes, yes.

Becky (23:09):

It restructures the whole conversation. It makes the choices so much different. I'll give you, this is going to be a very silly example of what impermanence looks like in our day and age, but it's illustrative. As you look at me, you'll notice I have a number of tattoos that I didn't have 10 years ago, even though I had always wanted to have lots of tattoos. But the society that I was in said, that's not cool.

Debra (23:44):

You’re not going to show at a client meeting with tattoos all over you…

Becky (23:47):

That's right. And even more than that, that I was afraid of what my mother would say. And so here I was, I 40 years old. I was a mother, I was a matriarch in my own hope. I counseled c-suite executives, and I was afraid of what my mother would say if I got a tattoo. And so for me to sit down in that chair and let an artist put some ink to adorn my vessel, to me, that was at the time, it felt like the ultimate rebellion because it was my nod to, it's all impermanent this, and by this I'm reflecting on my body. This all ends, right? This is going to end soon. Why not adorn it while I'm here? And so if you were to extrapolate the lesson from that and bump it up and bump it up to have a little bit bigger meaning, if I recognize that I made a stardust and this human experience that I'm having is a real reflection of our impermanence, it takes the pressure off and allows us to be a little more bold. Yes, we still have to pay taxes. Yes, we still have to pay the rent, right? It'd be great if we can put aside some money for retirement, but why not reframe the environment in which we're making choices?

Debra (25:20):

What happens to people when you work through that again, when you just got back from coaching some folks earlier this week?

Becky (25:30):

Yeah.

Debra (25:31):

What happens?

Becky (25:38):

Well, I'm smiling because I know in my email inbox right now, there's a group email and everybody I've just kind of been observing from the background is everybody is sharing their experiences. So we've now been three days since we were last together. And they're talking about the shift that they've had in their mindset, the courageous conversations they've gone home and had with their spouses, with their employers, with people in their lives with whom they have problematic relationships with substances in their lives and habits in their lives that have been holding them back. And it is so heartening to observe. People come to this place of, I am stardust. I have choices just because something hasn't, maybe it's worked up to now or up until a couple years, but if I recognize that I have not just the permission to make a different choice, but man, I have a mandate. I've got a mandate to make a different choice.

Becky (27:02):

It is incredible to watch this speed with which those choices get put into action. Because what I ask people to do is we're not going to Thelma and Louise this into existence. That's not always the healthiest way. Sometimes it's a necessity, but more often than not, I ask people to begin to think in their immediate choices, what they might do near term, what they might do a little bit longer term. And the question is not what do I want to do? The question that I've asked people to sit with is how do I want to feel? How do I want to feel when my head hits the pillow at night? How do I want to feel when I wake up in the morning? And if those things become the answer to that kind of becomes the why. What needs to change? That usually reveals itself pretty quickly. I want to feel a certain way based on my values that have evolved based on the person I am now based also on the idea that I am stardust. And so what needs to change? It kind of starts flashing. It's a little bit of a neon sign where people really get tripped up is the, okay, how am I going to do that? We spend a lot of time talking about three important things, trade-offs, consequences and boundaries.

Becky (28:45):

We can't just say, okay, I'm going to go do X, y, z. Well, here we do have to be strategic in thinking about, okay, well, I do this. If I step in this direction, that's likely going to have an impact over here. And then the question becomes, am I willing to live with that or not? And so it becomes, when we look at trade-offs, consequences, boundaries, it becomes that living, breathing exercise, trying to answer, what am I really willing to do to have this life that I've identified that I want? But it's also important to ask, what am I willing to not do? What am I willing to forego? What am I willing to defer? What am I willing to release? And so once we get the answers to those questions and folks have an understanding of, okay, here's why I want to feel differently. Here's how I want to feel. Here's what needs to change. And then I ask them just to identify what is, what's the one first thing you're going to do about it? And it's not usually I'm going to go home and blow shit up. It's not that. It is. I recognize that I need to do some work with my inner experience and my perceptions of my experience so that I can more comfortably go out and make the changes I want to make. I've got to remove some of these blocks and some of these obstacles. And they recognize it's not about the blowing up of the shit. It's about doing more inner work to open the path.

Debra (30:31):

And what's funny about it is that you feel the work and you feel completely different inside. Like, oh, if I don't come to this conversation with this preconceived notion of how it's going to go, it changes the way that that person reacts to me. And yet, on the outside, you look like exactly the same person that you were five seconds ago before you started behaving that way.

Becky (30:54):

But the light in your eyes is different.

Debra (30:56):

Yeah.

Becky (30:57):

Yeah. The peace in your heart is different. Meat suit might look exactly the same, but you can see that the stardust just dial up the brightness.

Debra (31:09):

I want to follow up though. You talked about trade-offs, consequences, and then boundaries. I get trade-offs in consequences. Tell me more about boundaries.

Becky (31:19):

Well, let's just take an example and sort of play it through. I want to focus on myself, and let's just say a person wants to go get some help releasing some long held trauma that's going to require some work that's going to require some time, some energy, some attention. And so where the boundaries may come into play is in what does that person need? What kind of framework and structure do they need to establish in order to prioritize this thing that they want to heal within themselves? And so that may mean, honey, I'm sorry. I am not going to be able to take you to soccer practice on Tuesday night because I have a therapy appointment. Can you please arrange for a friend to take you? And then an hour before practice, mom, I forgot to ask my friend to take me. And now they're not answering their texts. Can you just take me to practice? Oh, babe, I'm sorry. I've told you 10 times. Tuesday night is my therapy night and I can't miss it at this point, which is a really hard thing for a mom to do, right? Yeah.

Debra (33:01):

My heart is seizing up right now just as you're saying that. Yes.

Becky (33:05):

Right, right. And that's just one example of creating a boundary. It's not a brick wall that somebody can't, that somebody can't knock through. But it is this gentle but powerful. One of my mentors, a woman named Heather Plett, she talks of boundaries as like this membrane that stands between you and a thing that threatens to undo you. Right now, the membrane, again, it's not a brick wall, but it's also not so porous that it's ineffective. It's still a gentle, it's got some fluidity to it. You're not going to bounce. You're not going to just completely crash and crumble into ash when you run into it, you might bounce off. But so ways to protect your own energy, your own sense of how you have planned to spend the currency of your life, right? Your energy, your attention, your time, your money, and to be able to place some gentle boundaries around those that you can be spending that currency. You can be prioritizing your activities in a way that supports your values.

Debra (34:37):

Becky, what do you do when you lapse on attention or you get unfocused? How do you get yourself back on the path?

Becky (34:51):

The shortest answer to that is that I come back to my breath because that moment of recognition, I am out of alignment. There sometimes needs to be a pretty significant step back onto the path. But we don't even get to that. If we can't first come to our breath, remember our why. Remember our stardust calm, the nervous system. We can't make those confident, purposeful strides back on track until we feel it in the deeper place within us. So

Debra (35:45):

We've covered a lot today. Tell us the one thing. It could be micro, it could be start us size. What is the one thing we could do today to begin?

Becky (36:01):

I think it's to pay attention. I think in many ways it's learning to pay attention to your nervous system. In yoga, the progression from being standing here in our meat suit all the way to finding bliss with the divine, the work that happens in between there is we learn to control our body so that we can control the breath, and we learn to control the breath so that we can control the mind. And so if we start with body sensations, what is my nervous system feeling right now? What's my heart rate like? Is my head hurting?

Becky (36:50):

I, how's my digestion and elimination systems working? Do I feel short of breath? Am I sweating? Do I have a lump in my throat? And so to be able to translate that body awareness into a sense of what does that mean for my emotional state? How am I feeling? Am I feeling nervous? Am I feeling afraid? Am I feeling anger? Am I feeling resentment, hopelessness, confusion, you name it. All of those emotions have a corresponding body sensation that if we can learn to speak that language, we become so much more intelligent about ourselves and our experience. And so if we could learn to begin that process, and then from there, learn what we need to do to regulate the nervous system. So we start with the self-awareness, and then we move into this place of self-regulation because we can't make any smart, strategic, thoughtful choices when we are in a state of fight or flight or freeze or desperation or shutdown. We just can't. So we've got to, if we can begin with the body and learn how to just sort of bring everything to center. You see the way you took a breath when I said that, it's like your body inherently knows how to calm itself. Your body told you to take that breath and didn't it feel good?

Debra (38:35):

Great.

Becky (38:36):

Yeah. We come back to the breath

Debra (38:39):

And paying attention. Well, Becky, this has been so lovely and I want to make sure everybody knows to buy your book. We'll make sure that there are links. They can find you on LinkedIn and where else can folks find you? Becky?

Becky (38:57):

Everything is around the name. You are not stuck. So the website, you are not stuck.com. Facebook, Instagram threads. It's all the handle at you are not stuck.

Debra (39:07):

Wonderful. Becky, thank you so much.

Becky (39:11):

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it so much.

Debra (39:15):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's what the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

Carl Honoré is a journalist, author and TED speaker. He’s also the voice of the global Slow Movement. He has written a series of books on the topic of slowness, slow parenting, slow living and ageing, and he travels the world as a speaker, sharing how to thrive in a fast world. His TED Talks have millions of views.

Carl also has a new book coming out in the U.S., Slow Adventures: 40 real life journeys by boat, bike, foot and train. In this episode, we talk about why slow matters, his ah-ha moment reading a bedtime story to his son and practical steps we can all take today to live tempo giusto, the right speed.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Carl Honore is a renowned journalist, author and TED speaker. He's also the voice for the global slow movement. He's written several books on the topic of slowness, slow parenting, slow living and aging, and he travels the world as a speaker. In fact, his TED Talks have millions of views and he has a new book out. It's called Slow Adventures, 40 Real Life Journeys by Boat, bike, foot and Train.

 

Carl, welcome.

Carl Honore (00:39):

Thank you very much. It's great to be with you.

Debra (00:41):

So I first have to make a confession, real deal here, Carl. I super, super struggle with slow. I'm the person who's over caffeinated. I've actually had job reviews at the end of the year where they're like, you got to slow it down on those business phone calls. This is something that I really struggle with. Ground me on the basics.

Carl (01:10):

Well, you'll be relieved to hear as a fellow type A, that the slow revolution and the slow philosophy is not about doing everything slowly, which would just be an absolute nightmare for you, me and many other people in between. No, it's about doing things at the right speed. So musicians have a lovely term. They talk about the tempo giusto, the correct tempo for each piece of music, and that kind of gets at with the slow culture quake, the slow movement is all about, it's about choosing the right tempo for the moment. So sometimes yes, fast, sometimes you want to be in turbo mode, but other times it pays to slow down into tortoise mode, right? So really if you dig a little deeper into slow, it's a mindset, it's a mentality. It's quality over quantity, it's being present and in the moment, it's doing one thing at a time.

Carl (02:02):

Ultimately, slow with a capital S is about doing everything not as fast as possible, but as well as possible, which let's face it, it's a very simple idea. It's core, but it's also at the same time, an immensely powerful one because it has the capacity to revolutionize in a good way, everything you do. So that's why in every field of human endeavor now, you will find a slow movement, people coming to the party saying, how can I do this thing better and enjoy it more by slowing down to the right speed? So you mentioned in the intro there are slow travel, slow parenting, there are slow food, slow management, slow art, slow fashion, slow medicine, you name it. People can do it better by finding the right pace. And very often that means these days in our fast forward world, it means taking it down at notch or two and slowing down to find that correct tempo.

Debra (02:52):

Now, you've been an advocate for this for a time, right? I believe your TED Talk on the slow movement was 2005?

Carl (03:03):

Yeah, my first book, the book in Praise of Slow or in Praise of Slowness in the US is 2004. So we're actually a couple of weeks away from the 20th anniversary. So I've been on this track for some time.

Debra (03:14):

Congratulations. And tell us, what have you seen over the course of since 2004 when you started talking about this?

Carl (03:24):

Well, it's a mixed bag. On one side, the keynote of modern society remains acceleration, and in some ways we have got faster. So when I first floated the idea of a slow movement back in 2004, we didn't even have the iPhone then. We didn't have social media. And since then we've added artificial intelligence. I mean, there's been a real cranking up of pace and speed in many ways. But the good news is that in parallel, the countercurrent for slow has also grown fast as it happens. So when I first began talking about this idea, could we talk about slow as a creed, a philosophy that could reshape everything we do? You looked around the world at that point there was slow foods, slow cities, there wasn't much more. Now, like I said a moment ago, they were slow. Everything, and people at all stages of life are waking up to the folly of doing everything faster.

Carl (04:21):

So yes, on one hand the hallmark of modern society remains speed, but the countercurrent is stronger and stronger all the time. And I think actually the pandemic gave a real boost to the slow movement because what was the pandemic for many of us, if not a global workshop in slowness, right? It basically just stopped the world. And I didn't like, it was funny actually, when the pandemic hit, so many people wrote to me and said, you must be so happy, right? Everybody's been forced to slow down. I was like, no, I'm not happy at all. The pandemic is a total nightmare for all of us in so many ways, but like many nightmares, I think it brought a little silver lining, and it was the fact that we got a taste. Many of us got a taste of what it would be like to live without FOMO, to live without overstuffed schedules, to live with more time for baking, for playing with our children, for going for a walk with our partner, for doing all the slow stuff that gives life texture, meaning color, transcendence.

Carl (05:20):

And so that's why you see now the pandemic, well hopefully is receding into the past. People are coming out of that moment, that extraordinary moment in human history and making deep tectonic changes in their lives. So they're coming out and saying, you know what? I am leaving that bad relationship, or I'm changing careers, or I'm moving from the city to the country, the country to the city, or I'm learning a new, I'm making a big change. Because they had time finally, for the first time ever to slow down, pause, reflect, and grapple with big questions like, who am I? What's my purpose here? Am I living the right life for me? Because when you get stuck and fast forward, very often you find yourself living in autopilot. You're just following someone else's script. And for many people, the pandemic was a wake up call. It was a moment to say, okay, I'm slowing down here. I'm looking at the terrain. I'm joining the dots. I'm contemplating the horizon of the big picture. And I realized that I was just racing through my life instead of living it. So I've seen since the pandemic hit a real ratchet up of the slow movement.

Debra (06:18):

Well, that totally makes sense because it's hard to do this. Just wake up one morning and go, okay, I'm going to be slow today. It really is going to take maybe a job loss or losing a partner or loved one or an illness scare, right? Something's going to really shake your world.

Carl (06:36):

Absolutely. And for me, my wake up call came all those years ago when I started reading bedtime stories to my son. And honestly, back in those days, I just couldn't slow down. So I'd go into his bedroom at the end of the day, sit on his bed with one foot on the floor and speed read Snow White. So they're skipping paragraphs lines. I became an expert of what I called multiple page turn technique, which was you'd try to see three more pages, but it never works, right? I mean, our kids know these stories inside out. So my son would always catch me. He'd say, daddy, why Snow White? Why are there only three dwarves in the story that I knew what happened to Grumpy? And I realized that this was just almost an obscene approach to story reading. But I couldn't stop. I was so fast.

Carl (07:22):

I had to get through it as fast as possible. I couldn't. And then my wake up call came when I caught myself flirting with a book I heard about called The One Minute Bedtime Story. I remember that. I was, hallelujah, man, Amazon Drone delivery. I need that book right now. But then it was the light bulb over the head, second thought, and I just thought, no, what? No, this can't be true. Am I really prepared to fob off my son with a soundbite instead of a story at the end? And that was the moment of genuine searing epiphany. It was like an out-of-body experience. I suddenly saw myself there in sharp Relief, and what I saw was, oh, it was ugly, it was unedifying, it was just wrong. And I thought, nah, I cannot carry on at this pace because something has to give. Something is already giving. And that for me was hitting rock bottom, and that was my wake up call.

Debra (08:18):

You talk a lot about parenting, and I want to talk about grandparenting too, because our kids are really overscheduled. They feel our stress and their own stress in their lives. And you have a terrific book that is out in the UK and Europe and other parts of the world and will be available in the US next May, and it's called Slow Adventures, 40 Real Life Journeys by Boat, bike, foot and Train. And this feels like a super cool opportunity to do what you're just talking about here. It makes you, the transportation makes you slow down. If you're sitting in a train, you're going to have a conversation with your little human instead of sort of, we got to be here. We got to be there. What prompted you to write that book?

Carl (09:10):

Well, I know from my own personal experience that travel has often been, especially with my own family growing up as a child and now my family with my own children, that the moments I found it easiest and maybe even some ways most rewarding to slow down were when we traveled. So when we would go somewhere as a family, whether it would be to another city or to the countries, wherever we went, there was something about the pace and the rhythm and the tempo that just shifted. We just sort of shifted into a lower gear. And so I always had on my radar the idea to write something about, specifically about slow travel. If you look at the broader slow movement, the slow travel movement is one of the most vigorous strands of that movement, and it's one that I find personally the most appealing. And then along came the pandemic, which I travel for work all the time, and I love doing that.

Carl (10:01):

But that was one thing that went out the window. Suddenly I couldn't travel anywhere, and I felt the loss of that. So those two things collided my desire to write something about slow travel families and children with my own itch to get back out of my home and into the world again. And I thought, well, the best way to do that would be through a children's book. I'd never written one before. I've read obviously many of them, some of 'em I sped read, but then I got better and started reading them properly. I ditched the multiple page turn technique, and I don't recommend that to any parent. I hate to do add here. And so I thought, well, I'll write a children's book. And it was such a joy as well, because it meant that every day when I couldn't leave my home, I could travel the world in my imagination, reading, revisiting my own journals, watching other people's video blogs.

Carl (10:52):

And so just getting a sense of what was going on before rewriting about it and revisiting places. So it's like I could travel the world on a magic carpet of words, and it was such a joy to write, and it's a thrill to have it out in the world now and hear from parents and families all over the world. And the way they often talk about it, they pull the book out and they say, now where are we going to go tonight? And will we go by bike or will we go on foot? Or maybe tonight's a boat night or it's a train and are we going to go to South America or maybe Asia and stuff. And I just feel like it opens up the world, and when you open up the world, you open up people's hearts and their minds and their imagination, and that's the greatest gift we can give to our children, isn't it?

Debra (11:34):

Okay. Take us on an adventure. Where could we go? What's your favorite?

Carl (11:40):

Oh gosh. Like the old, well, who's your favorite child question, isn't it? One of my favorite ones, and I've redone it recently, is walking the Appian Way outside Rome, the ancient walkway that goes back 2000 years, that goes out of Rome all the way to the coast. I think it goes to NDIA on the coast, and it's still paved with the ancient Roman paving stones, and it's lined by old mausoleums and arenas where gladiators once fought in palaces and so on. And it's just, I mean, talk about a trip down memory lane. You wouldn't want to rush that, and you just walk, you soak up the landscape. And I went most recently with my wife who'd never been on the Appian way before, and it was a joy, and I've not done that one with my children. My children now are grown. They're adults themselves.

Carl (12:39):

They can do the Appian Way on their own. But it did make me think, wouldn't it be nice to do an Appian way walk with a family even now? But I would've loved to have done that with my children when they were smaller because they loved Romans like so many kids. I remember loving Romans, Roman Empire and all that stuff, whether it's asterisk or stuff that's a bit more historically accurate, but to be able to go and walk along Appian way and imagine yourself into the following, in the footsteps of sandal clad Roman centurions or traitors coming to Rome to hawk their wares. And so it just makes the heart sing.

Debra (13:19):

I love that. And as I'm thinking of you and maybe your children when they were tinier, if you did that traveling with children or grandchildren, it makes you be slow because they have their tiny little legs and their intense curiosity, and you find that you have a completely different adventure now you're looking at the cats that are there instead of going and checking out all the history, there's something lovely about children that makes us slow down if we pay attention to it, right?

Carl (13:50):

Utterly, utterly. And this is one of the greatest gifts that children offer us is slowness. Because let's face it, no child is born in a hurry. That just doesn't happen. They don't even understand how time works. You say to a three-year-old, you have four minutes and they'll look at you like you've just stepped in for another dimension. It's just meaningless to them, right? Children are artists of the moment, they're masters of now, and we've all been that in that moment, walking down the street with your seven-year-old, and she spots a lady bug and a Rose Bush, and she could stop there for 20 minutes, right? She'd give the ladybug a name, she'll weave a narrative of Icelandic saga proportions. If the ladybug flips off to another bush, she'll go chasing after it, doing cartwheels, getting exercise. And we actually know that in that moment of unhurried, tactile play and exploration in the world, your daughter's brain in that moment is on fire.

Carl (14:44):

She's building her brain and wastes a thousand hours of tutoring and a million educational DVDs are never going to touch. The trouble is that we are also pumped up and professionalized as parents that we see that ladybug moment and think that kind of looks like a waste of time. You pull her away from the ladybug and say, hurry up, we're late for ballet. And there was something about the magic of the ladybug moment that children are so good at, right? And if we would just pause, take a deep breath and slow down to their rhythm as parents or grandparents, we could tap into that magic and that majesty that children are so all children are so good at, right? And I think travel is a really good time to do that because as you say, they've got the little legs. They don't have the energy to keep going all day long, full tilt.

Carl (15:28):

If we kind of just rather than trying to drive them faster, if we went down a notch or a gear or two to their rhythm, then everything opens up. And when you slow down when you're traveling, any journey can become a bomb for the soul and a banquet for the senses. You can do that walking the Appian way, but you can get the same payoff, the same delightful kaleidoscopic experience of the world in all its richness, just walking to the end of your street or walking to the playground in your park. It's about turning on all five senses and having them fully illuminated and giving them the time and attention they deserve. And that's there for everyone. It doesn't cost anything. Sure, you can spend a lot of money and go to Rome. You can slow travel in your backyard, especially if you've got a child to take you along as a guide.

Debra (16:21):

It's true. I remember my parents are going to laugh, but one of the nicest travel moments was our car broke down and we were staying at a cabin in the desert, and so we had to stay for a few more days while the car got fixed. And I'm sure the grownups were just beside themselves trying to figure out the car getting fixed. But I had the best time because there was nothing to do. It was so fun.

Carl (16:46):

Oh, that's so telling, isn't it? That the fact that there was nothing to do, no. FOMO is such a relief and such a joy. That's such an indictment of the way we live our lives now, isn't it? And you heard that as well. Whenever there's a big power cut in a city, people look back fondly. I remember I live in London here in England, and a few years back, it actually snowed. I mean really properly snowed and London's totally not set up for it. So the city just round to a halt, no planes, no nothing, three days of, and people still talk about it 12 years later they were, you remember that snowstorm? And we all stayed home and we walked up to the park and we threw snow. Their faces light up. And you think that didn't cost anyone anything. It was just that people slowed down. They only slowed down. But why wait for that? Why not just do it ourselves? It's right there for everybody. It's true for the taking.

Debra (17:45):

It's true. And the reason I invited you, and I'm so glad that we're talking today, is your book really sparked something in me. I'm going to be a grandparent next year. And I hadn't really thought hard about what that meant, but I realized there is a profound opportunity as a grandparent to give the gift of slow. And I think of the relationship with my grandparents, and the thing I remember most about them and that I love deeply, is that they were the people who would just get on the ground and color with me or chalk, and they didn't have to worry about work or that they had something else to do. They would just hang out with me and go do, I don't know. It was just magical.

Carl (18:35):

It is. It's a kind of superpower. And interestingly, I mean, my most recent workup and looking a lot at aging and how aging affects us and how we feel about aging and how we can age better, and one thing they found when they do studies on people moving through the long arc of life is that we tend generally to get better at being in the moment. We get better in that second half of our lives at shutting out the sound and fury of this swirling around us in the modern world and just being there, right, being present, just what you've described there, the grandparent getting down in their hands and knees and playing Lego for an hour and not getting bored. I've seen that in my own life. I don't have grandchildren yet. I hope to. Not too soon. I'm quite enjoying the empty nest stage at the moment, but hopefully there's some grandchildren in my near-ish future. I remember with my own father. My own father was quite fast and busy and always working and so on. And then when he became a grandparent, he just seemed like it was a total 180 degree transformation. My son particularly was really given to delivering very long stories that I thought, oh, this is great. A lot, great creativity. But sometimes I'd be thinking, oh man, how much longer is this going? Whereas my father would sit there in the front room in the living room, he'd be there for an hour and a half just listening to all it, and there's no way my father would've done that as a father, but as a grandfather, he brought that to the party, and I thought that's a real testament to what grandparents can do. And there's a funny, I sort of feel like it's like an arc where grandparents and grandchildren kind of meet around in a circle. If you go all the way around the circle, I still feel like there's something, there's a natural complicity between grandparents and grandchildren that is eternal and glorious.

Debra (20:27):

Oh, complicity. That is the word. It is. I also love how you were surprised by your father's behavior. I mean, it really affects not just the direct relationship that kind of infused your relationship as well.

Carl (20:46):

Yeah, it did actually, because that was all happening around the time that I was beginning to think, oh no, I'm just too fast, but what do I do? I am fast naturally. How do I stop? And then certainly seeing my own father adopting that grandfatherly slowness shook me in a good way. It made me think, oh, there are different ways of being in the world and people can change. So yeah, that was part of my own journey away from road runner Dom and Speedo. Holism you like.

Debra (21:20):

What has surprised you about your journey?

Carl (21:27):

I think the thing that surprised me most, and this I hope will be heartening for anyone listening who's worried about slowing down, is that my biggest fear was that I would guess it's FOMO. I thought if I slow down, a big part of slowing down is just by did to the math, right? You only have so many minutes a day that I was going to have to drop things and let them go, and I was going to miss those because I'm somebody who's got a real hugger for life, for taking a big bite out of the world and just enjoying what I'm doing, where I am, the people I'm with, and the prospect of, yes, okay, I knew I was going to gain a lot by slowing down and the things that I would do, I would really enjoy them more. I'd have more energy.

Carl (22:06):

I wouldn't be burned out from so many, such a long laundry list of upside. I kept thinking, oh no, but I'm going to have to swallow a lot of pain here because I'm, I'm giving up X, Y, and Z in order to. But I never felt that. It was amazing to me that right away, for me, one concrete example here, I love sports. I play a lot of sports and always have done. And I realized that I couldn't carry on playing all the sports I was playing. So I let tennis go, and I've loved tennis, but tennis takes a long time. It's not like squash say or something where you can play it in 50 minutes. Tennis is a good, and I thought, I'm really going to miss tennis. I never once missed it. I know I'll go back to it later on. I've actually thought about starting this next year, next summer.

Carl (22:54):

Now I've got more time as an empty nester to return to it. But it's funny. I thought, oh, I'm going to be in distress here. Having given stuff up, I wasn't. Why? Because at some point you realize that having it all is just a recipe for hurrying it all. And you're much better off doing a triage and just sitting back, taking the time and saying, what really lights me up here? What can I let go of? And once you let the stuff go, it's remarkably easy. The question was, what surprised me was the ease with which I let stuff go, and it didn't hurt. It caught me.

Debra (23:30):

Well, then maybe you've answered my question. What happens when you get overwhelmed? When you get unfocused, what do you do to get yourself on the right track?

Carl (23:54):

I've got a few little, I guess they're kind of fast tips for slow quick hacks, right?

Debra (24:01):

I see what you did there…

Carl (24:02)

The first one I do is this is something that's really straightforward: breathing.  Because once you get into that kind of headless chicken, oh no, everything's moving, you're breathing very shallowly, and that becomes a self-fulfilling. You're in a loop then. So just to pause and take a few deep breaths, you're changing the physiological temperature of your body. You're recalibrating. You're finding a slower place to stand. And so just take a few deep breaths. If you're finding yourself getting whooped up into the kind of crazy hurly burly that can just infect all of us, that virus of hurry is coursing through people all around us. We can catch it. So breath, that's number one. Number two is, and this goes to a lot of very interesting research they've done showing that being in nature is also very calming, soothing and physically tranquil.

Carl (24:57):

It slows us down. So just spend time in nature. I don't mean you don't have to go do a nine hour hike in the Rockies. You can just walk across the street or go to the park or go into your back garden or even sit near a plant if that's all you've got. Just something about being near green spaces does make a difference. It does slow us down. People call it forest bathing or ecotherapy or green paws, whatever it is. But just try and build something of that into your day. Or if you're really feeling kind of uptight and wound too tightly, just get yourself into some green space for a little bit. So breathing green space. And then I think it also helps to have to hand an easy, I think if it's a kind of slow ritual that you can carry with you everywhere.

Carl (25:42):

So that could be, for some people it's craft. So it might be knitting, it could be reading. You have a little book, you read poetry or reading a novel, no screen, like a real book with pages and stuff. For me, often it's, and I'm really bad at this, is drawing or sketching, but I have a little sketchbook that I stop and look at things. This is something we never do nowadays, is stop and stare and really stare at something and then look again and look and then render the object or the person or whatever it is, in lines on a page. And that has an incredibly soothing effect on anyone and definitely on me. I mean, I feel I just get right into deep work, full focus, slow mode through drawing. And that could just be simply piece of paper and a pencil, right? Again, no cost. You can carry it around in your bag or your back pocket. It's always there. So those are three things. One little slow ritual, bit of green time, some breathing. Those are three things we can all carry around with us as ways to reconnect with our inner tortoise.

Debra (26:44):

Staring, I don't think we've talked enough about staring. That's a big idea.

Carl (26:52):

It is, isn't it? Because we don't really look at things these days. We glance, right, we scroll, we don't read, we scroll, we don't look, we glance, this is the fast forward culture that we're in. We're just skimming the surface of things. And there's so much to be gained from stopping and staring for actually looking, really looking at something. I've been doing some work with a new organization. It started in Spain called Empo. So time of art or art time. It's the slow art movement basically, is another way of thinking of it. And it's all about encouraging people to use art as a way to reconnect with themselves and the world and other people. But through slowness. Because if you look at studies at how much time people spend looking at the average work of art in a museum or a gallery, it's about 11 seconds, which isn't that much time if you're standing in front of a Picasso or a Rembrandt.

Carl (27:50):

And yet that's sort of the world we live in. But there's so much to be earned and gained by taking time to look, because not only do you come to understand and appreciate the thing you're looking at more, but you come to understand and appreciate yourself more. It becomes a self-fulfilling loop. There's something about the process of stopping, pausing, contemplating, trying to make sense of looking away, looking back, that it's like it generates and provokes and stimulates an internal monologue, which is also very important as well for finding out and pinpointing where we stand in the world, what's going wrong with our lives, what we can do next, and so on. So there's just so much to be gained from looking deeply. Looking slowly.

Debra (28:38):

Yeah, looking slowly. That makes sense. And you're reminding me, a few weeks ago I went up to, I live in Los Angeles, and the Getty has this terrific special exhibit about William Blake from the Tate Gallery. And so it's beautiful and it's complete, but William Blake will not let you just glance through it because it's tiny. And he has tiny, tiny text. And so you are forced. You just can't run through and go, oh, okay, saw that. You have to get there with the magnifying glass and you're going to be there for a time. And what you described was exactly the feeling. Plus there was this wonderful community of staring together as we were trying to figure out what was going on inside these incredibly intricate illustrations. And everyone had this sort of shared awe together as we were walking through. It was really remarkable.

Carl (29:42):

That's beautiful. And I love the word awe that you used there, because I think that is something else that slowness gives us access to is awe, awe and wonder. Those things don't happen if you're juggling five things at the same time with your eye on your phone. They just don't. They only happen when you show up fully and give yourself completely to the moment. And ideally, I think in many cases you do that with other people. There's a wonderful old quote or refrain saying that goes, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And I think that's another reminder of what Slow is all about. It's people often first encounter the slow movement and think, okay, I'm going to slow down here. I'm going to get in touch with my inner tortoise. I'm going to do things at the Tempo Juto, the correct speed, and it's going to make me more productive, more creative, more happy, more healthy, all that good stuff.

Carl (30:38):

But that's not enough. You've got to take slow the next step, because really slow is about reconnecting us not only with ourselves, but with other people. And we'll only ever really genuinely slow down if we all do it together. Create a world where the pressure is not on to road runner your way through every moment, where only a few people can only sometimes slow down. No, that's just a bandaid on a deep whoop. I'm talking about something much more seismic here in the long run. And I think that we get there by doing it together. And that's one of the main benefits I think of slow, is it's deeper bonds and connection with other people. Because let's face it, you cannot accelerate human relations. You just can't. These things have a natural arc. You can't make someone fall in love with you faster because you want to get married in June. Yes. You can't forge a deep friendship because you need someone to backpack around Asia with you next week. You can't download team Spirit from Amazon. These things take time. And not just time, they take presence that people need to show up with full attention and listen and to look at the world in the way you described there, looking at Blake together and share their reactions. And that's how we create a society worthy of the name. That's how we come together to build a world that works for everyone.

Debra (32:04):

Amen. Alright, we have, I'm ready. Okay. This is going to be my day to day. I really appreciate the time that you took to walk us through Slow to wander through Slow. And I'm going to make sure that everyone has all of the links on our site, on our notes. And you can already go folks to Target and other bookstores. And you can pre-order Slow Adventures. It'll be out May of 20, 24, or if you're traveling to UK and other parts of the world, it's already out there. And what is the title in the UK?

Carl (32:43):

The title is, it's The Journey, not The Destination. It's exactly the same book, but just a different title.

Debra (32:51):

Cool. And we can use that and we can use that as a guide and we can check things off as we either do them or imagine them together.

Carl (33:00):

There you go. I know. It's so sweet when families write and say, well, we're using this as a sort of family planning trip guide, right? So next year we'll do this and maybe we'll do that and stuff. So yeah, it's been very, very lovely, that whole experience.

Debra (33:15):

Well, thank you. Thank you so much.

Carl (33:17):

Thank you. It's been a pleasure chatting.

Debra (33:19):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

Jess Grippo is a force of nature: author, a TEDx speaker and founder of Dance Again, a New York City dance studio that offers a welcoming space for rusty dancers and newbies alike. One of her most popular offerings is Rusty Ballet where, she says, “creaky joints and cranky people are welcome.” We talk about how she came up with the idea of Rusty Ballet, why rekindling creativity saves us and the one thing we can all do now to start (or start again) dancing.

Here's how you find Jess Grippo:

Jess Grippo website

Dance studio website

Sign up for free 13-day dance series

Instagram

YouTube

 

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Jess Grippo is a lot of things. She's an entrepreneur, a TEDx speaker, a dancer and founder of Dance Again, a New York City and online dance space that offers dance classes for rusty dancers and newbies. In fact, she offers classes called Rusty Ballet, where “creaky joints and cranky people are welcome.” Jess, welcome!

Jess Grippo (00:38):

Thank you so much, Debra. Thanks for having me on.

Debra (00:41):

So ground us on Dance Again. Where did that start?

Jess (00:47):

Sure. Well, it started with my own personal journey back into dance after having quit when I was about 19 years old. I was very serious about ballet when I was younger, but decided to go to regular college and study and do other things through my twenties. And I found myself in my late twenties with that inner dancer calling to me being like, don't forget about me. But yet I personally was way too intimidated to just step foot into a random dance class. I lived in New York City. A lot of the classes, even if they're labeled as a beginner class, they just seem fast and advanced and just, I was not in practice at the time. And so for me at the time, I just was like, well, I'm going to figure out my own way to do this. And it started out with dancing alone in my room a lot and kind of making quirky dance videos. This was way before TikTok existed, and I just started to find my own expression and my own movement through dance. And as time went on, I was like, all right, well, I think I've nailed the alone part of dancing, so let me see if other people want to join.

Jess (02:02):

And I started to kind of put word out there, and that was the origins of Dance Again. And the intention was that while it's really easy to find at least New York, LA, the major cities, you can probably find a professional-ish adult dance class in other places. Maybe you can't even find that. You can probably find a Zumba class or something, dance cardio based. But it seems like the cardio workout focused dance classes are the more accessible things. But I was really, I didn't want to just go in and work out and sweat. I wanted to feel like a dancer again. I wanted to learn choreography and express myself and all those things. And so that was really the intention of filling in that gap of let's create a class and a studio eventually that was that middle ground. That was something where could feel like a dancer again, have a class that wasn't so technical or fast paced that they felt like, ah, I don't know how to keep up, but also not just a cardio class. And that was the birth of Dance Again. And here we are many years later.

Debra (03:21):

Love that so much. You were speaking to me because I took dance, like parks and rec dance when I was little and just loved love, loved it. And then in college I took ballet and jazz, and I loved it. Super passionate, but not great. I was a grownup person, but it was still, you were learning choreography, you were learning the correct technique. And so one year my wonderful husband gave me ballet slippers. I'm like, I'm going to go back and take a ballet class. So I called this local ballet studio, and they're like, oh yes, did you ever take classes? You should come. Okay, Jess. I got there and everyone was in the biz and just keeping in shape before their next dance video. I was so out of everybody's league that I just was like that five-year-old kid just twirling around in the corner when everybody else was doing stuff. It was so awful that it was actually really fun and hilarious. But I wish I would've known you then.

Jess (04:30):

Yeah, I wish you did too. And so wait, did you ever go back or did you take that class and you were like, I don't know.

Debra (04:36):

No, that was it. That was it. So now I sort of satisfy myself with taking Zuma classes at the gym and stuff like that. So it feels like there's a big need. So tell me who shows up for your classes?

Jess (04:52):

We have a range of people I put on the website for rusty dancers and newbies who are maybe always had the dream to dance or lightly dance in the past, but are wanting to really start as an adult. And rusty dancers, meaning those who did dance actively, not necessarily professionally, but just took classes all through high school or maybe even into college. But then when adulting gets the best of us and we have a lot of other responsibilities and we kind of phase that part of our lives out. Yeah, and I mean it's a pretty wide age range. My oldest student is 72 years old. I think the youngest probably in their twenties. I think there's still even people in their twenties who are freshly out of college but are still missing it, are still craving that space that they can belong in a dance environment and not feel like an outsider.

Debra (05:57):

I want to talk about, you talk about your Aunt Maryanne and what you learned from her about creativity, which comes into what we're talking about here of even if you have an older body or you've been away from an art that it can always welcome you back. Can you talk a little bit more about creativity and what you learned from her?

Jess (06:23):

Yeah. Well, my great aunt Marianne, she was incredible. And she was a visual artist, a painter, which she only started in her forties in her life. The big takeaway that I learned from her was self-preservation. Life is tough. Let's face it. Art can be the thing that grounds you, that saves you, that keeps you connected to something rather than getting swept up and all the things that can happen. And she was an influence on me when I was a teenager, I started to get introduced to her and she was my grandfather's sister and my grandfather was an incredible man as well. He was, after he retired, he worked for Nabisco for a long time in their New Jersey Patterson factory.

Jess (07:34):

And he decided to take up a hobby of taking railroad spikes and turning them into these statues. And the artistic spark was there in our family, but it would come out later. And my aunt was, at this point, she was actively painting and making art. And I met her at a couple of times when she came down to New Jersey from Vermont, and we became pen pals throughout my high school experience and would write each other. And I still have these letters from her that were just as someone young who was pursuing a career in dance at the time. And it was really cool to hear from someone who was like, yeah, wow, your dance is your art and that's valid and that's something that you should and can pursue. Whereas I don't think at least I didn't have a lot of that influence, even though my grandfather, like I said, was making things and doing his thing there. I don't think many people are overtly become an artist, go to college and make a lot of money doing something. So, so her influence was pretty profound on me. And as I got older, me and my mom, my mom's cousin and her daughter, we would take these trips up to Vermont to visit her, and it always just left this mark on my soul and inspired me to keep following whatever weird and wonderful path that I was on.

Debra (09:09):

But your story also brings up how we can have an effect on someone and not even realize it. Her living that way, continuing to be curious about her art that I can tell really affected the way that you now live your life. And I wonder, I'm sure she did it for her own love and because she loved you, but also art can extend beyond our immediate perimeters, right?

Jess (09:36):

Yes, exactly. And I think even talking about self-preservation, and I think there's a stigma around artists in general that it is a selfish, you have to be selfish, you need to dedicate all this time to the art. And it's like while yes, that can be true, it's like you said, the impact that your self-expression is making on other people or the world, that can be huge and it can actually really help other people.

Debra (10:07):

So those of us who sort of dance in the kitchen or we're in the car, going back to a dance class can still be super intimidating. You got to have the right look the right way, at least you feel like you do, and you got to walk in, you got to have a little attitude, and it could be scary. How can someone get started?

Jess (10:35):

Well, what I recommend is what I did way back in the day, which is start alone in your room. Don't put that pressure on yourself right away, especially if you're not familiar yet with what kind of environment you're stepping into. Because with your experience, Debra, you step into the class and you're like, oh my God, I feel like such an outsider here. And then you didn't go back. It's like, that's what we want to avoid. It's like scarring ourselves, but sometimes we can't help it. But I would say depending on your comfort level, and that's why at Dance Again, we offer Dance Alone Together. It's a series that you can do at home where every day there's a different theme. The themes are lined up with my book, and it takes you on a journey of both and getting back in your body and moving.

Jess (11:35):

You can also take classes on Zoom with us, you can access the class library. It's nice to have that option and to be like, okay, yeah, let me get comfortable. Let me start to really feel out what my body is right now, how these movements are fitting in, and what style might I like and what do I want to try and how do I feel as a dancer Now to have time to explore that and then step into a classroom, I think you can feel a lot more confident and it can make it easier. And of course, having a buddy with you is always a good thing if you can rally someone else to join you to take that dance class.

Debra (12:33):

Is there stuff that you need to do if you have an older body and you're coming back just in preparation for that movement?

Jess (12:41):

Yeah, that's a great question. I think you strengthening having practices, and I'm not an expert. I actually brought in other experts on injury prevention who have taught classes with us at dance. Again, in particular Wendy Reinert and Dana De Francesco, and working in a way where you're feeling comfortable.  With us, you're not doing triple pirouettes and high kicks and splits on the floor. There's no extra fancy technical moves on purpose because, and all of our teachers know that we're making everything adaptable. If you can't stretch down this far, you're going to do this instead. There's always modifications. Every dancer should be responsible for themselves and their own body. And so things like Pilates strength training are helpful. I had a pretty intense hip injury last year and went to physical therapy and worked with Wendy and did all this stuff to try to rehabilitate myself.

Jess (14:02):

And what I learned was like, okay, before I take a ballet class, which requires turn out in your feet, that's going to affect my hip. So I need to actually do some parallel squats and leg lifts before I take or teach ballet. And it actually really helps me because it repositions my hip, it activates other muscles. So I learned that for myself, unfortunately, based on an injury. But I think that taking it easy is always good. And then in doubt, if you're feeling any aches and pains to consult with someone or to take our injury prevention class and to just learn some techniques that are going to help you ease into it and warm up before class, what has

Debra (14:47):

What’s been the reception of Rusty Ballet?

Jess (15:00):

I would love to expand to LA for sure. I’m working on ways to do that. Our classes are filling up. Whatever we're doing seems to be working. I started a teacher training. So the idea is that I am working on people who feel called to this mission and would love to not only dance again, but teach Dance Again and create these kinds of spaces. You can work with me in a training and offer your own classes, similar to how Zumba works. So part of what I do too, outside of teaching and running the studio is guiding other people into their own teaching and then also the business and creative side of how to get that up and running in different places.

Debra (15:55):

That is super, super cool. You talked about your great aunt Maryanne, and I take from you that your family is really important to you. You have another video that you shared in your TEDx about your dad. Can you talk with us about that video?

Jess (16:30):

Yeah, sure. At the time, my dad suffered a stroke at a very young age. He was 55. It caused him to be disabled, physically, mentally, and there was a time where he was just in and out of nursing homes. He broke his hip twice. It was a very intense, condensed time of a lot of just hospital nursing homes, that kind of thing. I'm the only child. I was there a lot helping my mom out with my dad. And we were at this nursing home and it was a rough patch where something emotionally was going on where he was like, get me out. He was screaming, he wanted to get out of this nursing home. He was just not having it. And I was the only one there with him. And I was like, all right, let's go for a walk.

Jess (17:21):

And he was in the wheelchair and I was just wheeling around this nursing home trying to find something to do, and we found an art room first and did a little bit of art. And then I found this, the big dining room had a CD player, and I was like, let's play a song here, dad, take my camera. And I was like, I'm going to make a dance video. That was back when I was pretty actively making dance videos wherever I could. They had a Swan Lake cd, we put it in. Swan Lake was the first dance that I did when I was 11 years old at my studio in New Jersey. It was very sentimental.

Jess (17:59):

So yeah, part of what I show in the video is the video that we made together with him taking my phone and filming the dance that I was doing with his, I love that video, his commentary of like, you go girl. And he became a director, a videographer. He was involved in the process in the ways that he could and it shifted his mood and it made the whole evening so much easier.

Debra (18:40):

No, it is an amazing moment in so many ways that it's first of all, visually raw. It's clearly in a nursing home you can see that it's the dining room and you're dancing around the empty tables. But what I love and what's lovely and heartbreaking is your dad talking behind the camera because it's like he finds his voice watching you and having that moment of creating this video with you. And it is absolutely extraordinary. And you talk about the power of art, what that meant for him to make something again, to have some control, to be able to create.

Jess (19:22):

Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. Something so small can be so profound,

Debra (19:30):

And I think that that's probably what you find every day in small ways with your own studio.

Jess (19:36):

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's like every day when you're, that's the thing too with bigger dance classes is you don't even know who is stepping into your class and what they're going through in their life. But you can feel the energy shift and you can feel the joy that comes through in the expression and all that. And there's this one story that stands out to me. I had a student, this was many years ago, and she was part of this longer program I did at the time, and she didn't really talk much in class. She kind of kept to herself, but she was there every week and seemed to enjoy it. And when I did the feedback forms at the end, one of the things she wrote was that she was like, my husband's been very ill. It's been really hard as a caretaker being so young. She was probably in her early thirties and she was like, this dance class has been so healing to me, just having a space to come and move my body. And I would've never known. I really would've never known. But yeah, I think that's the power of dance and of creating, of expressing, of being able to do that wherever you are.

Debra (21:04):

And it's easy to forget about our bodies. Maybe not you because you're a dancer, but if you've got your job that you go do every day and you got the brain going and doing all that stuff, and it's easy to forget that you need to be moving and you can feel that way too.

Jess (21:21):

Yeah, it's easy to forget, even as a trained dancer, I think sometimes even more so because with dance training comes this very disciplined way of controlling what your body's doing. So it's like, yes, there's more of a desire to move, but there's also more of an ability to tame my body in a way. All those ballet training years where it's almost like with that kind of dance when I was so serious and so technical, I was a robot at the time, being so in my head, it's easy to carry that over and get stuck in my head too. So I have to constantly remind myself and create spaces and structures where I'm regularly getting in my body in different ways.

Debra (22:18):

So what is the one step that we could take on today? And I mean lazy, tiny, small step that wouldn't feel like turning our life upside down where we could start nudging ourselves into dance or to a creative adventure.

Jess (22:39):

Okay, so I have this, I don't know what to call it, a technique or a step or a thing. You could do a thingy. I got a thingy, I call it the Dance Shuffle or the Dance Shuffle solution. And all you do is you take whatever music source you have, don't overthink it, iTunes, Spotify, whatever. Open up your full library. You're going to hit shuffle and you're going to commit to dancing to whatever song comes on first. Maybe if you have more time, the first three songs, that'll be maybe 10 minutes. But if it's the smallest step you could take, and it's one song, let the song come on and be surprised by what song it is. And maybe there's even something in the lyrics that speaks to you, but give yourself that song to commit to. I'm going to move my body to the song. Don't even have to call it dancing, but see what it evokes in you. And it can start to open up your body and your movement, but also that mystery of like, oh, what song is it going to be? Right? Which I think the mystery and the magic is so much a part of the creative process too.

Debra (23:47):

I love that. As you were saying that, I was thinking, we don't get enough surprise in our life. Not good surprise, not surprise, surprise. But that’s what you’re describing: I have no idea what's going to happen next, but I'm in.

Jess (24:00):

Yeah.

Debra (24:02):

So if we're in the New York area, we will find you because you have your studio and we will make sure that all of the links are there and folks can sign up for classes, not just ballet either, right? You have other kinds of classes?

Jess (24:19):

Yes, we have other classes. We have have an amazing hip hop teacher doing some hip hop. We have contemporary-ish, I call it contemporary-ish because contemporary is very, I don't know, open to interpret interpretation as is modern, but we do our own flair of a learning choreography in that style. More styles might be added, but those are the three right now that we focus on.

Debra (24:48):

And if we're not in the New York area, you have online classes. Describe what we might see there.

Jess (24:54):

So as of now, we we're streaming most if not all of our live classes, so you can sign up on Zoom and take class with us live. And then we also have the Dance Again digital studio, which you can join. And we have an archive of class recordings, so you can, on your own time, take any class that's in there. And not only classes, there's things like injury prevention, like I mentioned. There's more creativity focused courses that guide you on more of a getting in touch with your own creative self, not just dance moves. And there’s the 13 Day Dance Alone together series that you can just kind of go through daily on your own time.

Debra (25:48):

I love this. And you have a book, right?

Jess (25:51):

I do.

Debra (25:54):

What's that about?

Jess (25:56):

It's called Dance With this Book, and the subtitle is Start a Revolution with Your Body Alone in Your Room. And really it tracks some personal stories just for inspiration around how I got back into it, starting alone in my room, but it turns it back to you. The reader with every chapter ends with a prompt to get you moving in your own way. And again, you can bring that to life with that 13 day digital series as well. That's all kind of in theme with the book. So yeah, get us moving.

Debra (26:35):

That is a lot. And okay, we're ready to do this. I think so everybody, we're going to have links for all of her stuff. Please take one of her classes and report back. It sounds amazing and I want to hear about everything that goes on. And Jess best wishes, please expand. I'm ready for you out here.

Jess (26:56):

Okay, definitely. I would love that.

Debra (26:58):

Thanks again.

Jess (27:00):

Yeah, thank you for having me. This is great.

Debra (27:02):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcast, iHeartRadio, Audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

Kim Alexis is one of the most recognized faces in the modeling industry. She’s been on the cover of over 500 magazines, appeared in six Sports Illustrated swimsuit issues and has walked the runway for top designers around the world. She’s written 11 books, both fiction and nonfiction, but is mainly known for her clean-living eBooks. Now in her 60s, Kim is a passionate advocate for the importance of making healthy choices in all stages of our lives--what we eat, how we take care of our bodies, what we put on our skin. In short, how we care for ourselves, mentally and physically.  Look for Kim’s clean-living column in Men’s Journal.

How to find Kim and more on her clean-living research:

Her website

Instagram

Facebook

LinkedIn

YouTube

A few helpful sites for figuring out what products are made of:

Think Dirty

EWG

Yuka

 

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Our guest today, Kim Alexis, has appeared on the cover of over 500 magazines. She's one of the most recognized faces in the modeling industry. You've seen her on Mademoiselle, Vogue, Glamour… you name it, she's been on it. And as a teenager I was obsessed with all of those magazines. She's a passionate advocate now of being mindful about making healthy choices in how we exercise, what we're eating, the product that we're putting on our faces, how we're thinking about ourselves mentally and physically. And it isn't just for folks in our stage of life, it spans our lifetime. She's a passionate advocate for this, and she's going to tell us more about creating a lifestyle around clean living. Kim, welcome.

Kim Alexis (01:01):

Yes, thank you for having me.

Debra (01:03):

So you are a passionate advocate for healthy living and this came from your own journey. Tell us how you got to this place.

Kim (01:13):

It probably started when I was young because I thought I wanted to be a pharmacist. So I had that whole thing of cause and effect that everything affects something else. I was fascinated with how that worked. Probably in pharmacy school, if I'd gone that way instead of into the modeling business, I would've switched to the natural and naturopathic way of being. But that passion stayed with me, especially as my business was looking your best at all times. And it's hard to do that when you're constantly inundating yourself with bad choices, whether it's what you eat, what you wear, what you think about, who you hang out with, how late you stay up, all that had in effect. So I learned that it was important that I had to take care of the outer in order to also feel good on the inside.

Debra (02:06):

Well, I imagine being a model is like being like any other elite athlete, you really have to keep everything fine-tuned, right?

Kim (02:14):

Yes. And a preparation is very big. So the day of a shooting, you've already done it. If you're not ready the day of the shoot, it's too late.

Debra (02:23):

But clean living, that word gets bantered about so much. I don't even know what it means anymore. Can you ground us on what that means to you?

Kim (02:33):

To me it means making healthier alternatives in all aspects. Whether it's what you choose to use as an air freshener in your car, or do you even need one? And it's because I've been in the marketing business, I know what products do for you. We are in this society where we want things quicker, more comfortable, faster, better, softer, stronger, harder, whatever it is, but at what cost. So sometimes products that give you that quicker or better or softer, whatever it is, thing also could come with some extra toxins that we don't need anymore. Clean living is choosing healthier options. We have a lot of different options. We have a lot of different products that do numerous things for us and to us. So sometimes certain products might be beneficial because it's quicker, faster, stronger, softer, whatever, but it may be at the detriment to our health. So my theory is that I try and stay as simple and as clean and as close to nature as possible.

Debra (03:46):

So it's easy to get down a rabbit hole. One, because everybody labels everything as being clean. And two, once you start doing the research, I think it's easy for us to get paralyzed. There are so many choices and decisions that have to be made. Is there an easy way to get started?

Kim (04:09):

There are a couple of options. One that I enjoy because this is all a learning process and you can't just say in one day, I'm cleaning up everything and it's a slow peel away the onion. So there are apps that you can put on your phone. I know of three. Yuka is one that's good for foods, Y-U-K-A. And then there are two that are good for cleaning products, makeup, sunblock, skincare. One is called Think Dirty. The other one is EWG, environmental Working Group. So when you are at a grocery store, any product you're getting, you could use their scanning option and see where that product ranks.

Debra (05:01):

We're in the grocery store together. Do you have your phone out and you're going through and checking product before you purchase?

Kim (05:09):

Yes, because I'm always learning. Everyone has their basics of what they always use. Start slowly and do some research. Let's say you're thinking of a shampoo. There are certain companies that are completely proven. Every product that they have is fine. So if you pick it by the company, you can trust the company. Others are different depending on what the ingredients are. And it's not defined across all boards. But there are some products that you can get that you can be very, no reliability wise, that they will never put anything in there. So that's one of their big selling flames.

Debra (05:55):

But really you have to do the research yourself, not just rely on a slogan on a piece of packaging, right?

Kim (06:02):

Yes. And it's sad because the word natural or natural fragrance or whatever it is, fragrance is a term that can hold thousands and thousands of different things. And another sad thing is that our FDA does not identify very many or ban very many ingredients and allows them in, whereas in Europe, they are much more particular about what they allow in products.

Debra (06:26):

I wanted to ask you about that. So when I travel to Europe, I take an extra bag and I'm going to the drug stores and picking up all the goodies there. Maybe it's just because I love all of those things and they smell nice, but I also feel like I'm getting more natural, fewer ingredients in those products. What do you think about that?

Kim (06:48):

Well, let's keep in the states for right now. I was using this hand soap forever, and I just love the smell. I did the scan on that and I'm like, oh my gosh, it's a six now. A zero is good, 10 is awful. And it was like a six. And so I'm like, oh no. I thought I was doing a good thing. I thought it smelled good and natural, but it was not. So you may have to get your little scanner out and see, but products we buy again for that emotional thing or it brings back a memory of being in Europe and you had such good time. And so at what cost do you change your lifestyle? If you really love the smell and it's that important to you, go for it. Just stay healthier somewhere else in another area.

Debra (07:37):

How do you do it for recipes? Let's talk about food now for a little bit. How do you do this without it costing a million dollars, without having to throw everything out that you have already in your kitchen and starting over again? Are there steps that people can take?

Kim (07:55):

Probably with what you feel is most important or what you use most. If you're baking, flour is probably your basic ingredient. And there are many alternatives to flour. Some are very, very expensive. Others are just a matter of tweaking one small thing. But again, what's at what cost? Do you want to spend more money down the road in the hospital or are you going to feel better and live longer and have a better quality of life now? And I do believe that our food does make a difference.

Debra (08:29):

Do you have a garden?

Kim (08:32):

I have a garden, but it doesn't do very well. It's too far away from the house. I forget that it's there. So the poor thing struggles along.

Debra (08:43):

I like to think about gardens, but I bet you I spend a gazillion dollars on a garden that I could just go to a nice grocery store and get just as nice of things.

Kim (08:54):

Yes, yes. So again, where do you want to spend your time? Where do you want to spend your money? I buy beautiful tomato plants and then the tomato plant, let's say is $15. I get three tomatoes off of it, the ones that I catch before they get eaten. And I'm like, okay, those are pretty expensive tomatoes here to go to the store.

Debra (09:15):

Exactly. But tomatoes, that's sort of a pastime. I sort of regard them like pets rather than things you eat because they take such care in feeding.

Before we got on air today, you and I were talking about hair. We were talking about gray hair because coloring is something that many of us do and you just have to decide. So tell me more.

Kim (09:43):

Let me preface: back when I worked--now we're talking 45 years--I don't mean to date you, but I started working 45 years ago. We didn't color our hair. I don't believe there were very many salons. All of the girls, we all were kind of just natural. So that was my hair back in the day. And as I've gotten older, when covid hit, I stopped coloring and I used Sun In

Debra (10:10):

Sun In!

Kim (10:12):

So that's what this part is now. This new stuff coming in is gray. And so one woman on Instagram was like, honey, I can't even listen and focus on you because all I'm doing is stare at your roots. And I sent back this video and I'm like, listen here. If that's all you can focus on, go follow someone else. I want to stay natural. The coloring gives me a massive headache for like 24 hours. It won't go away. It's not worth it to me. So I am going gray. That's part of the reason I cut my hair off. My hair was 17 inches longer. I had it braided at my salon and my girl cut it off and we're giving it to children with hair loss.

Debra (10:56):

I love that. Besides the cranky person who came after you, what has surprised you about going gray? Did you know that it was going to be kind of this flaming … I don't know … It's just such a hot potato.

Kim (11:12):

It's a really touchy subject in a way. And some women are like, girlfriend, I love you, but I'm never, I'm going to fight it until the day I die. That's fine. And I'm not pointing my finger at anyone else. Anyone can do whatever they want to do. I'm just telling you what I'm doing. So to me, gray hair is not a big deal, but some of the young girls are dying their hair gray.

Debra (11:38):

It's true, right?

Kim (11:41):

The hard part for me is the transition. So that's why I cut a lot of it off. Number one, to give to the children, they want the longer hair. So I wanted them to have as much of my hair as possible. But the other part was just I want to hack off all the old stuff because the news growing in and for some reason lately it's getting much grayer.

Debra (12:03):

Okay, we're looking at you. How far along can we, you have about a year before you're going to be full in, right?

Kim (12:10):

Probably, yeah, probably. If I keep this length, which I probably will. I'm going to have to, maybe I'll shave it. Oh my god.

Debra (12:19):

Alright, well keep us posted on that woman, whoever she was. She just went pale right now. She doesn't even know why.

Kim (12:27):

No, she stopped following me a long time ago, so she's not listening to me. I mean basically what my feedback was from women all over the country was, God bless you. Thank you that you are giving me permission to age gracefully myself. And I didn't realize it was that big of a deal, but it is. And women want to feel good about themselves and what's wrong with having beautiful gray hair?

Debra (12:56):

Amen. I was surprised how many people had really strong opinions about Dolly Parton being gorgeous and being up there in that Dallas cheerleaders costume…

Kim (13:09):

Exactly. And I think women who are secure in their own hearts and minds or who have wonderful mates and partners are fine supporting other women. Sometimes it's the ones who've been beaten down or whatever feel like they need to lash back. I think so I feel bad when I see somebody ripping me apart or trying to rip me apart. Number one, I let it roll off my back for the most part. But our business was one that was critical all the time, and we were always either justifying or it was an opinion one day and then someone else would have a different opinion the next and Oh, Darlene, this is the only way to do your eyebrows, or this is the only way to put your mascara on. Then the next day someone would tell you something totally different. So we got almost confused in a way, and then almost callous where it's like, yeah, right, just do your own thing.

Debra (14:05):

What's the worst advice, either in your career or as you've gone down the journey of clean living? What's the worst advice or the biggest misconception?

Kim (14:16):

I would say it is that you can't have any fun anymore. You're so busy with identifying everything and that you've got to stay so pure. But to me, I like the word simple and it's simplifying my life. My recipes are simple and I try to just stay as close to how God made things as possible because he also designed our bodies. So if he gave us and designed the food and he designed our bodies, our bodies recognize what it's being put in it. I think that we have a better chance down the road of living longer and better lives.

Debra (14:59):

You have a series of books that talk about a lot of these topics. You have one on cooking, you have on beauty. Talk to us a little bit about what motivated you to write those and what we should look for as we're looking at these books.

Kim (15:16):

So I think as I got older, I started looking around and trying to see how am I relevant? Because truly at 25 I was kind of looking for a new career. I had finished my Revlon contract and I had been paid to not work by being exclusive to Revlon. I wasn't working in other areas. So I came to a screeching halt and had to look around and decide what I wanted to do. And that's how I got into broadcasting. Then I got into speaking and I realized that I liked having a voice and that I had something to say. And so when I wrote my Amazon books, I started writing them as a term paper and I would quote at the bottom where I sourced all my information from an Amazon's like, Nope, that's a copyright infringement and I just want to hear your personal story. And so I kept getting denied, denied, denied. So I learned on the Amazon eBooks, I feel this is what I've been through, this is how I've learned. Now I'm writing for Men's Journal and I can go back to citing sources. And so when I make a statement on something, I source it and put a link in the article itself.

Debra (16:43):

Tell us about your work with Men's Journal. What kind of topics do you cover? What are you passionate about?

Kim (16:48):

What we've been talking about it. Anything to do with clean living. I've got 15 articles up already, but they go from using new fabrics made out of bamboo, which is a type of rayon, believe it or not. And so just describing a little bit of the history of that. I just try to identify a cleaner way or a cleaner version or a healthier alternative in how we live.

Debra (17:23):

Are people surprised what changes in their life when they decide to live healthy this way?

Kim (17:31):

I don't have feedback yet from people, and I think because it's a slow process of going towards disease, it's also a slow process of healing. But we do every single moment of our lives, we are either going towards or away from health, every choice we make

Debra (17:52):

Truly, and our whole medical system is based on you already being sick and people trying to fix you rather than coming from a point of wellness.

Kim (18:03):

Yes. The medical business treats symptoms and it's better to treat the underlying causes. So I don't feel great today so I've been slamming vitamin C and zinc and a bunch of different things. Herbs. I’m taking care of strengthening my immune system versus just treating the symptoms.

Debra (18:30):

What's your feeling about supplements and vitamins?

Kim (18:36):

You should see my cupboard! I'm always trying something new. I'm always researching, and that's what some of my men's journal is. I just wrote one on Indian gooseberry, which people don't know about. So there's just so much in my mind to learn, and that's where my happy place is just going online and finding out new things about a product or why I should try something new. I mean, I'm like squirrel, squirrel. I mean, if I'm in the health food store, don't talk to me. I'm busy.

Debra (19:09):

So tell me about Indian Gooseberry. We don't know about it. What should we know?

Kim (19:12):

[added: Indian gooseberry, also know as Amla extract, is a nutritional supplement/superfood that contains essential vitamins like C and A. Studies have shown that this powerhouse extract can potentially improve digestion, reduce cholesterol levels and support healthy heart function.]

Kim (19:36):

I’ve also been writing about honey, which in addition to being a food is also antibacterial, antiviral, you can put it on cuts. I’ve written about Manuka honey, why do you spend so much more on Manuka honey and what do those ratings mean? So there's a UML or UMF rating, and so all that stuff is fun for me.

Debra (20:01):

My mother-in-Law was born on the small island of Iria Icarus, which is one of the blue zones, and they're very serious about their honey. It goes through the seasons. They have spring, winter, fall, they have honeys that go through the whole seasons and they're used as medicine very seriously as medicine, not just for all the other great things that you eat on the island.

Kim (20:27):

Right, interesting. I know honey's very good and it doesn't spoil.

Debra (20:36):

I'm excited to see what the feedback is on your Men's Journal journey because I think that that's reaching a whole new audience.

Kim (20:47):

So I think it's about 70% men. They've got 40 million viewers, and they also own a couple other publications including Sports Illustrated and Parade Magazine.  It's a good group of people, and I'm still learning. I mean, there's just so much to learn when you start a new business. So I'm a little overwhelmed.

Debra (21:12):

Have you changed your eating habits or the way that you approach clean as you've gotten older? Are there things that you do differently now?

Kim (21:25):

When I was working, I was pretty aware of things that I thought were good, but I know one choice that I made, I used to buy cold pressed oils and I would use them to cook. And I thought because it was cold pressed, it was better. But then as I got older and researched and learned more, I realized cold pressed oil should just be used raw in salads and dressings or things like that and not heat it up. And so I was like, oh, I used to be so proud of myself, like use it and put it in my stir fry and heat it up and it doesn't have as high of a smoke point. So I want to get into that with Men’s Journal too. And the barbecuing, there's certain ways to barbecue. They're healthier than others. You don't want that black on the outside, the acrylamides. So there's just so much to learn and I try to make it easy and give you the history of why and then some healthier alternatives to see if you want to make that change. If you don't, then you don't.

Debra (22:26):

So how do we begin? What's one very small step we could do today that would put us towards this path?

Kim (22:35):

For me, it's looking at what you do the most. What product do you utilize the most? For some people it might be skincare or sunblock for others. Well, for all of us, what we wear every day, our clothing, what we wash, our clothes and sleep in with our sheets is something pretty much touching our skin 24 hours a day, unless you're taking a shower. So if you have too many toxins that are sitting on your skin from your laundry detergent, that may cause a problem. Some people feel like they have to throw those beads in to make your laundry smell fresh. That's not normal. What is that doing to your system? Or they don’t want static cling, so they're using dryer sheets that could disrupt your hormones. So I use those little wool balls.

Kim (23:31):

So there's just little things you can tweak. Cleaning products. Air fresheners, they put those little things on the vents. Those are not natural either. And you are breathing that in every day. So there are small things to become aware of. You start looking at products and you're like, ah, what's in that? As I said, it's peeling away an onion. You can't do it all at once. And as I'm still learning and I'm not perfect, but I find that I feel better if I do as well as I can and stay as clean as possible for my household.

Debra (24:13):

I love that. And in addition to your work with Men's Journal, that folks can start following and they can check out all of your eBooks on Amazon. Are there other places that folks can go to learn more?

Kim (24:28):

Well, my website's got a lot of the history. You'd go down reminiscing lane there with a lot of the photos and covers that we uploaded, all the ads, all the stuff that I used to do, write for two other magazines also. So I'm just trying to expand. I'm also developing a jail ministry, working with Dress for Success, and also St. Vincent de Paul, which handles homeless people and trying to help empower these women who are coming out of the jail system that want to learn and want to get a job, and what new things do they need to do and what mindset and adjustments do they need to make in their lifestyle and how they think about themselves and others to get ahead and be successful.

Debra (25:18):

I love that. We will make sure that all of this is listed in the notes. Kim, you have been really generous with your knowledge and information. I so appreciate you.

Kim (25:28):

Oh, well thank you. Thanks for asking.

Debra (25:30):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at deborah@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

Poet Mary Oliver writes, “tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?” It’s a question Diana Dunbar Place is obsessed with. She’s the founder of Third Act Quest which helps guide folks as they’re figuring out this second arc of life—how we live, work, play and serve. We talk about leaps of faith, rising strong from lightning strike moments (looking at you, cancer) and connecting the dots to live a true and beautiful life.

QUEST 2024 - 1st Annual Third Act Summit - Click for info. and to get your ticket - limited to 100 women

333 Collective

Third Act Quest website

Diana Place/LinkedIn

 

Transcript: 

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. The American poet, Mary Oliver has this terrific line. I'm going to read it to you. “Tell me what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?” And it's a question our guest Diana Place is absolutely obsessed with. She's the founder of Third Act Quest, which helps guide folks as they're figuring out the second arc of their life, how we live, how we work, how we play, and how we serve. Diana, welcome.

Diana Place (00:40):

Well, thank you Debra. I'm glad to be here with you. 

Debra (00:43):

And before we talk about what we're doing, let's talk a little bit about how we got here, how you got here, what were the circumstances that got you started with Third Act Quest?

Diana (00:57):

Okay, so it was pretty clear to me. I'd spent a long career, as I call it, dancing on the edges of my passion. And I was in the process of building a business I'd been working on for about four years, and I was, that productivity junkie was alive in me and then all of a sudden, I call it the most what started as what I saw as three coinciding life disruptions. I later called lightning strike moments, right as I was about to turn 60, I got a cancer diagnosis, a pretty bad one. At the same time, I had to shut down that business. I was preparing to empty nest as my daughter headed off to college and I was turning 60. So I got through it and it's in the rear view mirror for me now. But what was the day? I will remember the day I decided to start Third Act Quest.

Diana (02:15):

These lightning strikes just like if lightning hits a beach, it turns into crystals. These lightning strikes completely cleared my deck and I sat thinking about life. And when you've almost lost it, you realize it's preciousness. So I started saying to myself, this is my third act. Okay, what am I going to do? I Googled it, saw this really cool talk by Jane Fonda talking about her third act, and I decided in that moment that I was going to share the stories of women who were living really beautiful, meaningful, joyful third acts into their late fifties, sixties, seventies, and in some case, eighties. So I started a series of annual storytelling events. But along the way I decided too that there was so much need for support and inspiration. I also did a number of other things, workshops and retreats like that. But it really started in that moment. And I like to say that when I look back on it, I see it as one of the greatest gifts of my life to have these three coinciding things that really literally stopped me in my tracks. And there was a great aha coming out of it as opposed to what I guess could have been a feeling of fear and complete remorse and victimhood. So I really feel grateful now for that moment. But thanks for asking. It is as clear as today is to me, that moment.

Debra (04:08):

It's interesting to think about such difficult challenges as being something that you're grateful for. I mean, that's a tough one because a lot of folks would've just sort of curled up in a ball and just sort of let it happen. But you had some tenacity. But going from that inspiration, that knowledge, two sides of questions. One, the work that you're doing and also just being an entrepreneur, how did you move from going, I've got to do something to actually inventing this work that you're doing? How did you actually start?

Diana (04:48):

Well, I will say, I'm going to go backwards a little bit. I'm not going to retrace my career. I'm 64 now, so that would take the whole of our time together. But basically I spent that time looking back and tracing that, what I like to call a thread that came through my life and what has happened a lot during my life. I had a long corporate career, but I danced in and out of sort of more corporate traditional what I think I was supposed to do and succeed. I was at America Online when it was happening, and I was senior vice president. I basically saw the thread was I enjoy that. I'd learn a lot, I'd get a lot out of it, but then I ditch it. And I did several times in my late twenties, early thirties, I started my own thing, which is cause marketing firm.

Diana (05:53):

Then I did a couple of other little startups along the way, but I went back and forth between corporate and entrepreneurial across my life. And then finally as many women past 50, well, I was a late in life mom, so I left the corporate world and decided to focus on her. So I did. I had several businesses. I started sort of all over the map, everything from a photography business to what was the business that I closed as after I got sick. So every time I tried on what I wanted to do, I realized that I like to be the one that decided to follow my heart and the way I wanted to create a business or be in business I didn't want to be a part of. And I'm sure many people listening to can relate. I didn't want to be a corporate drone, but I also didn't want to be under the demands and control of an organization I didn't believe in. So what better way to do it and start my own. So that's where it was all logical. And plus, I'll have to admit this, if I tried, and this is not a story of ageism, but if I tried at that age 60 years old, I really would have a hard time finding a role back in the corporate world. So there you go.

Debra (07:27):

And the people who join you for Third Act Quest, who are they and what you've discovered from their stories?

Diana (07:37):

You asked what I discovered about the people or about what I'm seeing in general.

Debra (07:43):

Talk about trends. What are you seeing in general? What has surprised you?

Diana (07:48):

I began the storytelling events with women and men, and I refined it lately to and have created a community that's women over 50. The trends I'm seeing relate predominantly to women, but also crossover to men's experiences at this time. I see a lot of women that even if they come to me saying, man, I got to figure out what's next. I've had it with my job, or I've just been pushed out of my job. I'm no longer needed, or I'm just ready to retire. And I said, so I see a lot of people who are really holding on. So that's one category. They hold onto an old fashioned storyline. They retire, they maybe jump on a board. And none of this is, I'm not maligning it, but it is the standard way that people have approached retirement over this generation and before. But there are a lot of people I feel holding on and feeling like they're almost preparing for a steady decline of their productivity, of their engagement, of their impact.

Diana (09:21):

I see a lot of uncertainty. They've worked their whole lives and they've dedicated it all to the job or the company or the initiative. And even the most amazingly talented can feel paralyzed when they try to figure out what's next. They haven't gone in, they haven't really dug down in their hearts just to feel what they would enjoy. So another category that goes along with this, a lot of self-judgment. I've talked to a lot of people about the internalized perfectionism, but also internalized ageism. I'm too old to start that. I could never do that. I see a lot of fear. I mean, fear is a big one.

Diana (10:10):

I feel that fear keeps us stuck and stuck to the storyline. And one of the things that I see counter to that, which is beautiful, sort of like a revolution of way people are thinking more and more is they're getting excited and they're understanding the gifts of this time of life, the resilience they've proven as they've encountered so many difficulties. And also, and this is what I love, and they learn to manage fear, fear's, real fear's in all of us. It keeps us from falling off a cliff, or it keeps us from sadly on the negative side, doing the things that really would bring us the most joy and meaning. So I'm seeing more and more people in this time of life saying, hello, this is my, to quote Mary Oliver, my one wild and precious life. So I am going to take some leaps of faith and I am going to embrace possibility instead of decline. I see a lot of curiosity and this positive revolution, I guess we could call it. I see a lot of curiosity. I see a lot of courage, and I see a lot of creativity in the ways people choose to live and the way they choose to love how they wear and what they do. I see a lot of emerging great creativity. So I'm seeing more and more of that. And I think that's the foundation of your podcast and your organization. So I know you can relate there too,

Debra (12:03):

But the holding onto that old story that is, man, it's deep within us. I always, I've thought about Barbie dolls, and when I was a kid, I had Barbie dolls and Barbie dolls helped me understand what it was like to be a teenager. And it felt like there were always models to figure out what I was going to be next. But I got to tell you, I feel like I need a Barbie doll for over 60 because I don't feel like there's any model how my parents and grandparents aged into, I think of them at 65, and it feels completely different than what I am. And it feels a little scary that you kind of don't have that.

Diana (12:48):

Well, it's interesting. So that works two ways, right? Yep. Oh my God, what should I be? But there's this other thing around possibility, and I mean, you've hit on something that I think is so important. I really agree with you, and that's why the storytelling events, I've probably, over the course of the several years I did it, we've interviewed about 50 women about just inventive ways to reinvent their lives. One of my favorites, I mean, I have so many favorites. One of my favorites is a woman, Melissa Davey, who you should actually speak with as well.

Diana (13:31):

I love the story. I'll tell it quickly. So she's 65. She has this fabulous career. She's very successful. She's advocating in DC, she's in something in the insurance industry. And she said they would've employed me until I was 75. They love me, I love them. But she said, one day I decided I don't want to die at my desk. And she won this opportunity to be on the set with a director of a film in her area. And then literally the next day after being on set, went in, quit her job and said, I'm making a film. So she created this really cool film called Beyond 60, which I think there are like 10 women profiled. And then she's about to release one called Climbing Into Life about Alex Honnold, the guy that did free solo, his mom who over 60 climbed El Capitan. So there's this interesting thing that, so yeah, what am I going to be, there's no role model for me necessarily, but I look at it as like, okay, open season.

Diana (14:45):

I mean, look at Diana Nyad. She was 64 when she, I mean her body was able at 28, but everything else, mostly her grit was there. And I think that's what comes with aging. So anyway, I want to mention one thing that's so important to me, and my mother just passed, so I feel like I can say this without her being hurt by this, but part of my personal inspiration was my grandmother. And I think you'll hear a lot about that from a lot of people. And my grandmother was not at all traditional in her sixties and beyond. She did wild ass stuff. She never said, never. She traveled to China, she went to Spain and decided to learn Spanish. Right before she went, she wrote a couple of books she painted. She was, no one told her no. And then my mother was the opposite, completely shut down from possibility. And I said, I want more women to feel like my grandmother and nobody to feel like my mother. That's part of my emotional driving force for what I'm doing.

Debra (16:06):

Love the idea of looking to our grandmothers. As you're saying that, I'm thinking I had very close relationships with both my grandparents and they were awesome. They were badass. And you think of all those women turn of the century, you look at pioneer women and other folks, and they did incredible things because no one told them no. They had to figure it out, right?

Diana (16:32):

Well, women's rights weren't there necessarily when our grandmother's around. But there's something about, I mean, I was born in 59, and there's something about I think that's a tough generation. A lot of women were really pigeonholed and told they had to be the Leave It to Beaver mom. And I am not saying it was perfect before them, but there's another film I'm going to mention by a woman, Sky Bergman called Lives Well Lived, which is all about these beautiful stories. Most of her people are in their seventies and eighties and even beyond, but they are still inspirational. So yeah, I think we need more role models, and I think we're getting them. That's what I'm excited about because I think younger women need to know that it doesn't, with so much talk about wrinkle cream and Botox and all this stuff, your face is going to get wrinkled. Yeah, your body's not going to work as well, but there's so much you can do. And happiness actually is proven to peak after 60. So I honestly think that this emergence of things like your Dareful project, my Third at Quest and other dozens and dozens of initiatives are going to help so much.

Debra (18:18):

What's the one thing that we all could do that you've learned from listening to stories and convening people together to figure out their third act? Is there one thing, the smallest thing that we could do this very day that would change us?

Diana (18:43):

So the one thing I'm going to mention is sort of foundational to opening up to possibility. That's really the key. And I would say that one thing is to choose to let go. Let go of beliefs and expectations. Let go of regrets and negative emotions and let go of fear. None of this is easy, but I like to say you and only you get to decide. You get to choose to embrace curiosity and unearth your passions, but you really have to let go first of a lot of stuff. And I was reading a beautiful book actually called Letting Go, and one of the things that the author who was just, I resonated with every word in his book, but he said, once you neutralize lies, the painful moments, the regrets that are embedded deep in you, they're the ones that trigger feelings. And he said, if you are aware of this, then you can release the actual feelings and then all those thoughts will also go away. So letting go is my one thing, and it isn't an easy one thing, but it's I think powerful to even think about.

Debra (20:28):

But as you're saying that, it reminds me being in corporate life, there were so many, God, the daily battles, they were so fierce, they were do or die. It felt like everything hinged on them, the alliances, the budget, there was all that stuff, and it just took up so much time and created so much anxiety. And now when you get out of that environment, you realize I have a lot of energy to go do some really interesting things that I was totally devoted to these sort of tribal warfare moments.

Diana (21:09):

Well, even if you work for a company that had a brilliant purpose, you were usually trapped in the battles that didn't allow you to attach to that. I mean, isn't that for you? I mean, I'm going to turn the question back to you, but I mean, isn't it our life, you see the end zone, you're going to leave this life, but oh my God, before you leave, isn't there just this craving, at least I've seen so much of this in people as we age, even more craving to have our life be meaningful, and even if it's only one person that benefits from our presence to have that sense of a purpose for what we do, whether we're an artist or whether we're a writer or musician or a philanthropist. There's so many ways. And yeah, the corporate world makes it hard for us to do that. Some of these visionary companies have pushed that mission down and really internalized it, but not all of them. I think there's a lot of room.

Debra (22:18):

But even the ones that have terrific missions, we're still human beings. And so we still get together in a room and still do all of that stuff. My husband reminds me, he has this great reminder that we talk about what is going to be our obit? What is someone going to say about us at the end? And then you work your way back from there. What do you got to do today to make sure that you leave that legacy?

Diana (22:43):

That's brilliant. That's a beautiful way of putting it. For many of us, our legacy, and it can be as simple as being the way we parent. So even if we're not discovering a cure for cancer or creating the best American novel, even if we just parent beautifully and we know that we're leaving our children who are doing good in the world, I mean, those kinds of legacy should uplift us to possibility. And it all starts with, as I said, letting go of crap, letting go of I should do this, I shouldn't do that. I should be this way. And just saying, who am I? Who really am I? And how can I have a joyful life, but also spread joy?

Debra (23:39):

And you don't know doing what you might think is a small thing everyone is watching. And so you do not know where you may have influence by being a good parent. Someone notices you who you may never meet again. It just may be just sitting on the other side of a restaurant and noticing. And so there's no small act when it's of what you're describing. I think it has tremendous impact.

Diana (24:08):

That's wonderful. So you're so right.

Debra (24:21):

And what you talk about with younger folks feeling uncertain. I think that that is impact that we have just by showing up every day and releasing that fear that you're talking about because they're really scared and they're like, you know what? I'm in my thirties and if it just keeps getting weirder and weirder, I don't know what I'm going to think about being in my sixties. And we know it's way better, right?

Diana (24:47):

Yes. Well, the thing that is more and more fascinating to me, and I'm going to try to figure out how to be more intergenerational in my gatherings and programs, my last storytelling event, most of the people were women over 50, but this one woman joined in her mid thirties and she emailed me afterward and she said, this is going to sound weird, but I'm actually looking forward to getting older now. Thank you so much. I was so afraid. Now I'm excited. So it's like that gave me goosebumps. And so figuring out the intergenerational connections that we can have, not just to teach them our wisdom, but to have them teach us their wisdom, that sort of mutual meet in the middle and share with each other is something I want to explore a lot more.

Debra (25:48):

I love that so much. So Diana, tell us more about Third Act Quest. What do you offer? We'll make sure that we put everything in the notes. Everyone's going to be able to find Diana and her terrific organization, but what do you love? What do you recommend? If someone wanted to sample it, how would you guide them?

Diana (26:09):

Okay, so Third Act Quest is all about inspiring in reframing the way we look at aging. I'm not an activist working out in the world to try to change it in the corporate or the media or anything like that, though I care about that and align with a lot of people that are doing that. Third Aquest is more about women over 50 and potentially in the future, younger women to really embrace this time of life. They're one wild and precious life. Thank you Mary Oliver. We do a number of things. I have a newsletter like a lot of us, I send out emails. I have a really nice list of people who engage with me there, and that's all they do. And then I've got also a couple of other really exciting things happening. As I mentioned, the annual storytelling event has shifted into what I'm now calling the first annual third Act summit next May. It's called Quest 2024. As you can tell, I love the word quest and the whole concept of a quest.

Diana (27:21):

So I'm excited for that. I've got about 25 women that are going to come speak some really cool topics around creative living, creating your life. And then at the core, and this has really been where I've put a lot of my energy, is I started a couple of years ago a community called the 333 Collective. And that is basically stemming from the craving that I witnessed in my own community and the women I was encountering for really meaningful, deep connection with other women at this time of life, but not just at this time of life, but women who share their passion and excitement about it.

Diana (28:13):

They may not know exactly how they're going to map out their third act, but they are excited to meet with other women who want to do that and not just coast along, as you say, stick to the story. And I'm thrilled at the impact we're starting to have just within that community. It's a membership or a private kind of a community, but it's growing and it's really fun. We also do Third Act Quest also does at least one trip or retreat a year. I'm ideally having three each year. And last year we went to the Camino de Santiago and took a beautiful journey there together. And next fall I'm planning a trip to Guatemala to a place called Casa Paloma, which is a magical place on Lake Lan. And so that'll be a blend of some introspection, but also exploration, which I think travel does for us. So I will admit that's just fun being an entrepreneur because I started off with a vision and have meandered and expanded, and in some cases Covid had me contract and create online workshops and things like that. But now I'm really focused in on this community and these in-person gatherings.

Debra (29:49):

Oh, that sounds amazing. In Guatemala, man, that sounds super exciting.

Diana (29:54):

You need to look up Casa Paloma. Actually, Joyce Maynard, who is the keynote speaker at Quest 2024 next May, created that part of her beautiful creation of life, and it's magical there. So I can't wait. In fact, I'm going tomorrow.

Debra (30:15):

Okay, you're going to have to report back.

Diana (30:17):

I have to do a site visit.

Debra (30:18):

Of course you do. Yes, you do. We're all about site visits now for next year's summit. Is there still space available if folks are interested in joining you?

Diana (30:29):

Yes, there is. I just opened up the registration about a week ago. I am limiting it to a hundred women and then the 25 speakers on top of that. So it'll be 125 of us. So I have an early registration offer that's good through January 15th. So that's quite a bit of a savings. And part of my desire is to really show people what the three collective is. Most of our speakers are members, so it'll give people an idea of the kind of things that we do and the kind of women that are in it. And it's going to be on the coast of Rhode Island in this magical little town called Bristol, which is about half hour from Newport, Rhode Island.

Debra (31:20):

That all sounds lovely. And you can also find Diana, and can you find Third Act Quest also on LinkedIn?

Diana (31:28):

Well, yes, but I spend most time under my own name, my personal LinkedIn, because I've had LinkedIn for so many over 20 years, so that's much more of my place.

Debra (31:41):

So listeners and viewers, if you're interested and who would not want to go do all of this with the fabulous Diana, please make sure that you check out her site. Please check out Third Act Quest and maybe we will all see each other in Guatemala next year.

Diana (31:57):

Please come join us. I'd love it. Such a pleasure, Debra, and I love what you do and it's been such a joy to speak with you.

Debra (32:08):

Well, thank you, Diana. Thank you for all the work that you're doing with Third Act Quest, and we're going to loop back because we're going to want to hear how everything is going.

Diana (32:18):

Wonderful.

Debra (32:19):

Thanks again.

Diana (32:20):

Have a great day.

Debra (32:21):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

 

Like many of us, Chris Preuss spent much of his adult life working up the corporate ladder—the nights, the weekends, the career moves—and he rose up the ranks to become a senior exec with a number of companies you would recognize. And then, he made a decision that dramatically changed his life: he left it all behind to lead a Christian ministry. We talk about what led him to rethink his life, what the pivot process feels like and how we change when we embrace a new adventure.

Here's where you can find Chris:

Maranatha Bible and Missionary Conference

 

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. My friend Chris Preuss spent much of his adult life the way most of us have, that's climbing up the corporate ladder. He's really good at what he does, and so he climbed up pretty fast and pretty high. He ended up as a senior exec with one of the world's largest PR marketing advertising firms, and then he made a decision that changed his entire life. I'm going to let Chris take the story from here. Welcome, Chris.

Chris Preuss (00:38):

Debra, that's so good to be with you. It's so good to see you and just all that you're getting done with this wonderful podcast. I'm honored to be here.

Debra (00:46):

Thank you. So give us the groundwork. Where were you at? You were high level, you were cool, you were doing all sorts of important work, and then what happened?

Chris (00:57):

Well, in terms of the transitioning into a different phase of life, I had an amazing 34 year career in PR and at that most in the auto industry as you and I had worked together in that capacity in the past and got to be on the top of some pretty big mountains during that time as head of communication to GM during the bankruptcy, which was quite the thrill and had a good stint as the chief marketing Communications officer for one of the big suppliers. And then ended up, as you mentioned back with Ford and actually evolved into running their agency business on the PR side through one of the big PR advertising conglomerates, WP group. But to be honest, over were probably the last, I would say maybe five to six years, things just started to change the equations of what gave you satisfaction and what professionally you had done. I wouldn't call it an existential crisis per se, but maybe just a slow evolution to wanting to do something different with far fewer years in front of me than I have now behind me, which I think in that period you had that wake up call. And so with that, I decided to drop out of corporate life early and completely repurpose myself. And I'm now heading a nonprofit ministry in Western Michigan, a big conference and retreat center or faith-based entities,

Debra (02:30):

Making the decision sounds lovely and clean, but having been in the middle, it's really messy. Can you share a little bit more about the process?

Chris (02:45):

Yeah. Was like I said, it was more of an evolution than something you woke up with, but if I'm honest, getting into more senior positions, particularly in the corporate set, you have to want that. I mean, you're kind of all in and certainly your skills and your abilities get you to a certain level, but then sometimes it's the intangibles and maybe even odd circumstances that might get you into that most senior role. And for most of my young life, I was just singularly focused on that. I mean, God blessed me with a wonderful wife and two wonderful children, and we got to live all over the world. We lived in Washington DC twice. We lived in Switzerland for a while. I worked at Chrysler, Ford and GM at different times, so it was really wonderful. But I think you get to a point where once you maybe apex, there's not a whole lot of other mountains to climb.

(03:46):

And I had actually, the signals for me were getting strong because I've been sort of looking to get out of the industry for maybe the last little section of my career. And I was connected with some great headhunters. It was just, and I am not exaggerating, I ended up in the number two position for three major global chief communication officer jobs at different Fortune 50 companies. And so you're like, okay, and those processes take forever. They're like five, six months sometimes to get through. And you came up short three times. I'm like, all right, well, there's writing on the wall. And then similarly, I'd been in the auto industry. I had just been and done everything, and I was working with Ford and I grew up a Ford kid. My dad was Ford pr. And so it was coming home for me a little bit, but to be honest, they weren't getting my best.

(04:42):

I think I was just running out of that enthusiasm. You need to be the advocate that you need to be when you're in the communications realm. And so then Covid hit, and I think for a lot of people there was just a mass recalculation that Covid did because I mean, you were completely extracted from the environment that you were so used to in terms of how you worked. And then losing all the social contacts that our profession affords both with journalists and with your colleagues, and particularly in an agency role, when you're dealing with tens of millions of dollars of revenue to manage and you have no contact with people, you person it. That soul draining part just accelerated in that time. So that was sort of got me, I think to the point where I started thinking about maybe there might be something else out there to do, because if all it's going to be for the next, if I wanted to work in the next seven to 10 years, it just didn't feel like this. This was going to be a place to spend that time.

Debra (05:49):

I admire your self-reflection on that because I feel it in myself also that you want to gin up that same sort of obsessive corporate energy and go, I can do this again. I can do this again, but it doesn't feel as hungry or as, I don't know, it doesn't have the same mojo.

Chris (06:15):

Yeah, I think that's a great point, particularly in communications. Whenever I go to speak at a university to students or I still get to show up at U of M and some other universities to be a guest speaker every now and then, I make the point that if you're going to spend 80% of your waking hours is doing something, you need to really be passionate about it. And when that passion goes, then all of a sudden it becomes drudgery or it becomes obligation. And to be a hundred percent clear, I mean, I was in a very blessed and fortunate position that I could afford to take this change early, which not everybody can do, and certainly decided to forego a fair amount of earning potential for the next several years to go into nonprofit work. But honestly, once the kids are growing out, we've got grandkids now.

(07:11):

We were just almost laughing about how little we needed to live a life compared to how we lived it. And so my faith has really guided my life. Most of my adult life, I became a Christian as an adult and just after college, and that was sort of a subtract in my life, but it didn't take the predominance of my life that it should have during that corporate ascent. And in that, that was probably one of the more painful realizations several years ago, was just the toll my career had taken on my wife, on my kids, the things missed. And I'm not exaggerating. I can't listen to the Cats in the cradle song. It's just like to this day still, it would be too hard to listen to because I think there was also some of that reflection was, boy, a lot of the life went by when you were on conference calls or sitting in hotel rooms trying to sleep with jet lag in China overnight. So yeah, moving away from that was definitely not hard in that sense.

Debra (08:21):

You're reminding me of a aha moment I had in my career. My kids were little and my daughter was playing, I'm Mommy at work. And so she's on her pretend computer and she's on her pretend phone. And then I try to say something to her and she lifts up her finger and goes, no on the phone. I'm like, oh man. Oh man. Is this our relationship? Oh man, this is bad.

Chris (08:46):

Yeah, yeah. I and your kids pick up on that and in your own mind, you're convinced you're the greatest at everything you do and certainly all the intentionality of showing up for things or the meetings that you think you didn't go to, but the reality was you're not nearly as glorious as you think you are in that respect. And that the kids did have a lot of, I would say times that they felt distant or the dad was a bit of an enigma to them and just he did his thing, but they had life with mom at home. And so yeah, those are things you don't get back. And on reflection, you always wonder, would you do it differently? I'd like to say that I would. I don't know. I'm very happy that it came out the way it has. But yeah, there's a cost to everything. And I think for me, looking forward with what years I had left to work, that cost calculation changed pretty dramatically for me to what was going to make a difference for time and eternity versus just for our standard of living or my own desire to be recognized professionally.

Debra (10:06):

I wanted to ask you if you could have done this younger in your life, but hearing you talk right now, it sounds like it's important that you went through that because you're bringing some wisdom to what you're doing now by having that corporate life.

Chris (10:21):

Yeah, I think those are hard contemplations. Like could you have Yes, probably could have. Would you have, if I'm going to be intellectually honest, no, probably not. Because you were focused on what you thought you wanted. And again, I would never want to pretend that there weren't great benefits and things that I loved my career. I mean, I said sometimes I look back on all the things I got to do in places and people that you got to meet, and it's staggering. How is that me? But the other thing I would say really affected me, and again, you'll appreciate this as a communicator, but one of your key roles is to be an advisor to senior executives. So I've been very close to some very high performing executives, CEOs or chairmans or near CEOs. And one of the more interesting things that I did take note of through my career was how hard it was for so many of them when it came time to hang up, it wasn't their choice.

(11:34):

In other words, they kind of ran the game until time ran out, and they were just going to have to move on. And their inability one to dislodge from that world, and then two, they had no identity when they did, or the identity they had was somewhat misplaced or dislodged, broken marriages, fractured relationships. And I definitely did not want that to be me. And I knew that at an earlier age. I would say that I wanted to be able to decide when I wanted to stop working, not get that call that we've been waiting for you to figure this out on your own, but now it's time to go.

Debra (12:21):

Well, I think about that a lot because you and I both know executives who you move a lot, you work really hard, it's 24/7, and at some point your family goes, we're moving again for the third time in three years? We actually like it here in Florida. So you go do your thing and you come back and hang out with us when you can.

Chris (12:43):

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, what again, just do you count the cost, right? And I don't think when you're kind of blinded with that corporate aspiration or you've sort of got that single-mindedness willing to forego anything. Now, I was fortunate in that my wife and kids would pick up and go, and we did, I think at one point, Stacey, and when we were married for 11 years, we had been in 10 different homes, and some of that was circumstantial with just moving between Chrysler to Ford, they moved us within the Detroit metro area, and then we took some transfers that ended up, we ended up getting called back quickly, but they're moves nonetheless. You're just up and down. And I do remember one discussion we had kind of towards the end of my deciding to pull out, and I kind of made the comment,

(13:45):

…”look at all the great places we got to live, all the great things we got to do.” And it's like, well, it was great for you Chris, but I don't know if you bothered to know us that we, it wasn't always our choice to get to go. We always made the best of it, but that you were, there was never an option that you weren't going to take that role to get the next level to be the guy willing to go take the sacrifice to move the family. Yeah. So again, those are just contemplations that come up after the fact. So when you reflect on that question of would you done it when you're younger, I've often thought, what if I hadn't taken some of those moves? What would be different now? Would we be regretting some of those things or we wouldn't be able to do? I don't know, hard to know. We'll know it the next life, not this one I guess.

Debra (14:35):

So when you were making the decision to jump off the corporate bandwagon and to go nonprofit and to go faith-based, was it a long journey of loss and then sort of redemption I guess, in your own career and making that decision? Or what was the process?

Chris (14:55):

No, I think that I was ready to go because again, one was, like I said, the cost side of things personally came with certain financial rewards that made it possible. So that wasn't a hard part of it, and I think most people would've the hardest decision about would this affect our lifestyle? It was funny when I said I was going to do this. So many people like, oh, that's so amazing. That's so great, but it is not the sacrifice. It sounds like I'm getting the better part of this deal going. But the thought process was probably harder for my wife because her identity and her, we had been stable in one place for almost 12 years in southeast Michigan. The kids had grown up. We had my work life even we called it the Covid blessing to some degree because we were together constantly. So part of the equation was as Covid started releasing its grip, I started, I'm back to London, I'm back to, and I remember getting on that first flight and January of 21, January 22, January 22, going back to London for meetings, the agency and stuff, and just feeling getting on the airplane, just the smell of the airplane knowing I'm going to wake up jet lagged and have to push through meetings the next day.

(16:19):

And I got on the phone, I called Stacy, I just can't do this. I just can't do that. Being home for the two, we were constantly together, even doing everything, I just can't flip that switch and go back. So the thinking process from that standpoint was really easy. The harder part was going into this nonprofit world because there's, the place that we're at is called Maranatha, and it's wonderful, it's an 88 acre conference retreat center that's on Lake Michigan. It's one of the most beautiful parts of the state, and it's been a place that people have gone to vacation with their families for like 88 years. Billy Graham was an intern there in the 1940s, Billy Ruth Graham, before he was Billy Graham. I mean, that's kind of the roots of this place. And we used to vacation with our kids there because when we were in Switzerland or DC or other places, and our family was in Michigan, we didn't really have a place to base.

(17:16):

So we would come and stay at this place, and eventually we bought a cottage there. So it was always our kind of safe place. That's where we just went. We had a place there for 10, 11 years. It was seasonal. Well, now you're there full time. Now you're the guy that's in charge and Christian or not, you put a bunch of people together who own property and have certain stakes and things, human nature shows up. So the fear was if we go there is our sweet safe spot going to become, we're kind of pushing all the chips in. If this doesn't work out, we're not just losing, Hey, you made a bold change of your career and walked away from a big job. Well, now we've lost the place that we used to love to go and was. So that was tough. And to be honest, it took almost a year, I think before I think my wife really had sort of really absorbed all of it.

(18:09):

And we had found our place and replanted, and it's just weird. We had replanted so many times early in my career, and then we were stable for 12, 13 years, and then we replanted again. You'd think it would come back to you, but it was a big deal doing that. But the other upside for us is our daughter is on this side of the state. She had met her husband at Maranatha during one of summer several years ago, and we've just had our first grandchild and she lives close by. So that kind of made the transition a little more logical for us as well. But yeah, it's just such the weird thing. It's just such a radically different world than being in the corporate world. And the amount of change I've needed to make and just how I lead, how I see things has been quite an evolution.

(18:57):

You don't think you're going to learn new things at this late part of your career, but I've had to repackage a whole lot of my approach dealing in a nonprofit world versus the corporate world. And probably another growing tension for me personally, particularly over the last five to seven years was that, and we're very much a conservative evangelical big tent. I mean, it's very kind of a big tent –Protestant -- but very much on more of the conservative evangelical sphere of things in that community. And that's where my faith has been raised. But for most of my career, my Christian faith has been never a challenge for me in my corporate roles. I would like to think I'm a better person and leader and person to be near and around because my faith would dictate. But then some of the things that has been coming up more on the social agendas and some of the things that are becoming very predominant in particularly the DE and I space, and I'm not alone in this, but you're getting to a point now where there are some real strong clashes.

(20:07):

And it used to be that you could fade back and not participate in certain things because you might find them to be in conflict with your faith. And everybody was okay with that. But that equation for senior people changed over the last four or five years. So it's like, why aren't you more proactively using your social media to talk about this issue? Or we should be more, why aren't you out there showing up at certain types of events and things? And that became much tougher for me to manage. And again, I started I think feeling more conviction or conflict over some things that as a matter of conscience, I was having a more challenging time embracing or at least endorsing with my own platform or credibility. And so that part of it, being in the faith world where you can openly be express who you are and that your faith is very much central to what you do, that's been quite wonderful.

(21:10):

And I don't mean that you were a different guy there than you are here, but in terms of being able to maybe more freely speak on and be, I couldn't as an officer in the company go to somebody who might be struggling and share Christ with them and not have fear that that might come back in a certain way that would be a problem for the company or a problem if somebody took offense at that. And those are compromises that come with life in the world versus life in the faith. But those were certainly more pronounced for me I think in these last five or six years than they had been in the past. So that part of it for me in this new environment's been quite liberating and enjoyable.

Debra (21:53):

Did your friendships change when you went from being corporate Chris to your new role?

Chris (22:02):

That's a great question. There are certain people that I have stayed close to in my professional world, but the busyness of life and things going kind of do that. But I would say we, I would say just as good relationships. I do think in, again, some of those relationships that you've had coming up are more bent on the fact that your colleagues and that's what is your common ground. And so when that common ground is gone, you lose some of that connectivity. I certainly have people that I've grown up with through automotive who I would consider to be great friends, journalists or other enthusiasts or people that you stay in contact with.

(22:51):

But I think, and to be honest, my bent in corporate life, I was very careful not to cross too many personal lines for a lot of reasons that I just think are important just in terms of what your role is for the company and that you're not making decisions or doing things that are unintentionally unfair because you've got a depth of relationship with somebody and you might be treating them differently. So I always try to keep a fairly collegial, professional sort of friendships with people versus what I would say more closer friendships. But there certainly are some people that I've stayed in touch with and definitely would want to as we go forward. Yeah.

Debra (23:46):

What has surprised you about this process?

Chris (23:52):

One is just how much I'm enjoying it because it's always the fear of the unknown. You might make this bold decision, get over the fence and figure out, oh my goodness, what have I done? What was I thinking? Now I've walked. And that was, I think also part of my wife's fear was that, that you've talked yourself into this and things are crazy because of covid and you're bored and you didn't get the other jobs that you thought you wanted, so you're just looking to take an off ramp. But it wasn't that at all. I mean, I think that's been just the opposite. I'm immensely challenged in this job intellectually, and it's just so many different circumstances and so many things to learn and do differently. I've never managed a conference retreat, banquet, hotel operation before. I've had to learn that we've got a 20 million capital campaign going on right now.

(24:51):

I've got to build five buildings. I've never done buildings before. We're doing, I'm the guy who's having to shepherd the community relative to just community together and spiritual issues. The other sidelight that my wife and I have is I'm just finishing my seminary degree. She just finished her master's degree and we do counseling. So we counsel together, we do marital counseling in the church, we do individual counseling with people. So that sidetrack has been developing also for me, which was drawing me away from professional life, more towards ministry life. And so that's now another part of our time that we spend doing things that has just been really fulfilling. It can be very draining being in that environment when you're always admired in other people's issues, trying to help them through it. But it's been wonderfully satisfying and enjoyable for us. So I think that I've liked it that much has been a surprise, I would say.

Debra (25:50):

Although what you're describing is what you and I did every single day. And you in particular, right?

Chris (25:57):

That's true. To a degree. It's true. Yeah. You're a counselor. Yeah. Everybody runs to the communications team when they're not sure what to do and how you're advising people to respond. Yeah, that's very true. For

Debra (26:10):

Folks who may not be called to a faith-based next chapter, but are looking to pivot, what are your recommendations? What are your learnings?

Chris (26:19):

Well, I think one is, I think the caution against knee jerk reactions. A lot of folks, I'll just use the ministry experience. I know just as many people that thought that were corporate people that thought, oh, wouldn't it be great to be in ministry and take, and they get over and they're just, they hate it. I'll use an analogy that we would see in our, which is we've seen it where we've had people go from journalism into pr, they were journalists, and they go into PR and they just find out they absolutely hate it. So I think if you're contemplating moving from one spear to another, let's call it more from a professional corporate existence into something that would be more expressive, hobby based, maybe you're going to go into small business, make sure you understand that cost counting, because everything's fraught with difficulties. Nobody's grass is necessarily greener.

(27:19):

And the commitments in those worlds when you make those changes, if you don't understand them, could overwhelm you quickly. And I've seen that when people have moved out of corporate life into buying a business. For instance, they bought a dealership or they became a franchisee of a business or something and they found out there's a level of risk and commitment was completely different than what they had experienced before and overwhelm. I think the other thing you have to really think through too is if you're married and the affected relationships around you in making those choices, if you're doing this, are you together? And like I say, I couldn't be happier right now where we are in our marriage, we're just in this amazingly sweet period where things have come together and it's worked out beautifully that way. But I shudder to think, had we stayed in one context, would that be the case if I was still slugging it out or if I had taken one of those new jobs and was happened to go 150% again.

(28:26):

And then another one I would just say is, do you have the financial stability side of things sorted out? Because again, that's probably the biggest unknown. You could sit down with your financial advisor and look at cashflow analysis and what you're going to need. But I mean, literally the minute I walked out of my job and alright, well we know what we're going to get at a much lower pace rate over here and what we're going to have to take out of the nest egg. I mean the markets went down 15% in June of 22. The housing market slowed way down interest rate and went to 7% on mortgages. And I'm like, did I think this through? And so yeah, that side of it I think needs to really be calculated.

Debra (29:25):

I would like to double click on the decision being in line with the people around you on this. I'm going to be talking with another guest here in a couple of weeks, but we go down a road and we have to take the job because we are raising kids and we have a mortgage. And so there's things that you do, you got to step up and you got to do 'em. And if we're very lucky at this point in our life, we put a little money away, we have some experience, we're healthy enough that we've got years in front of us. And so this could be the point where we do that thing that we must do. And so that could be a reckoning in relationships.

Chris (30:08):

You really got to work through that. Because it's not just you taking the ride and everybody else gets to readjust. And even again, I don't know that if Covid hadn't happened, I don't know that I'd be in this role because I think that gave us the confidence of being together. I think we used to joke, what's it going to be when a third of my life wasn't on the road getting tired of hearing me talk? Well, at least you're going off on a trip or something and you have a different change of perspective and absence makes the heart growth fonder or whatever. How would you be if you're together all the time when you've had this other way of living for most of your married life? So yeah, what's the environment? Are you moving? What's the time demands? Are you doing it together? I mean, I just can't explain how I would like to be able to put into words more eloquently what the drivers were in my heart, why I felt so passionate about being in one context for so long and then just literally kind of flipped over.

(31:12):

This isn't where I'm supposed to be. I would say that to me that's more God's leading in my life and just where he took us as a matter of conviction and my appetites and my desires changed in concert with this change of venue. But I think making sure that your spouse or your significant others and that same mindset and is willing to take that journey is really important. But yeah, the sense of aging, you're just kind of shocked that you look in the mirror one day and you're like, wait a minute, my brain still says 30 and I definitely don't look 30 anymore. And you spend your whole career being the up and comer and always on the ascent and then all of a sudden you're not. And that again, that affects every relationship you have and how you relate. So yeah, I think you have to think it through and talk it through with whoever's taken the journey with you for sure.

Debra (32:17):

But you have a choice in that. Either you can try to grab back that past glory and just kind of muscle your way through as best you can, or you can decide this is going to be a whole new chapter.

Chris (32:30):

Exactly. Right. And it's a different equation too about what's really what counts, what does getting that glory back mean? And so I think again, for the corporate ascent, you kind of got there and then you're like, this is it. And that's not uncommon. I've worked with guys out of private equity in my journey, guys that are worth nine figures and they feel like they're, they've just, boy, I just didn't get to the billionaire mark. You're just like, what in the world? What kind of a perverse mindset is that? But that would just tell you that money's not going to be the ultimate arbiter of whether you're successful or not.

(33:20):

We're here for a breath and then you're not. And what's going to have mattered and what's it going to be? And I believe we give an accountant when we're done. And for me it was just, yeah, I want to be in service to my Lord as much as I could be before departing. And I think that's true even in a professional life, if that's where God's called you, I think we need godly leaders in corporate life and others, but for us, this was being part of this community, being in this place, we felt led. And so that was the kind of all clicked together. But yeah, you're not going to get that lightning back. And I think that's where it gets sad and pursuing it, you're going to find it can become quite a sad thing to watch. And like I said, I've seen that movie before with others, I've been around.

Debra (34:14):

What would you recommend for folks how to begin the smallest step, not the giant one, but just what is that one thing that someone could do right now as they're contemplating something like this?

Chris (34:29):

I think you really need to ask yourself, the hard question is if this is all the time I have left, what is it that's going to matter? And what would be holding me back from pursuing that? Because doing nothing or staying status quo is absolutely valid, but is that nothing happens until somebody acts. And so no, and I believe this is true in every phase of life, nothing comes for free. So there's a certain amount of equity you've got to push onto the table to say, I'm going to make a change, and am I willing to do that? And is my spouse or other willing to do that? But man, I think once you get over that hump of making that decision, you take that first next step. And you don't have to solve it overnight. But I think you have to ask yourself the real tough questions. Is this where I really want to be? Is this how I want to finish? And what do I want it to look like when I look back and do my kids know me? Does my family know me? Can I look in the mirror and say, yeah, this, and again, coming more from the face, am I going to look in the face my Lord and say, here, well done, good and faithful servant, or am I going to hear I never knew you?

(35:47):

And so that's where I just think you got to ask yourself that tough question and not be afraid to ask that question.

Debra (35:57):

Chris, can anybody come and visit you?

Chris (36:02):

Sure, absolutely.

Debra (36:03):

Anyone can come and have a lovely time, anyone can come.

Chris (36:07):

Anyone wide open.

Debra (36:10):

Alright, well we're going to make sure that we have all the information on our site so that folks who want to, and you're open all year round, even in the chilly winter months.

Chris (36:20):

Yeah. So let me explain that real quick. So we function for 10 weeks of the summer. So basically from Memorial Day through Labor Day on a set program. So for three weeks in June, we host a special needs camp called Johnny and Friends, which are families with disabled children and disabled adults. And we give respite to the caregivers. And so we have people that come together and take care of the needs person and then we pamper and have fun for the families to be kind of released from their responsibilities. So that's most of June. And then every week through the summer, we have a different set of speakers that come in each week, preachers speakers, and we have free concerts. And so families come every different week. So most families, if they've come week five for years, their families probably grew up coming to week five. And that's the summer. And then for the rest of the year, we run, basically we're open for retreats and conferences and we have groups as small as three people. And we have groups as big as 300 people that come in and use a facility. And it's, like I said, it's a very big tent, Christian. We're not denominational, we're not tied to any one church or anything. So it's a pretty big tent for people to come in.

Debra (37:31):

I love it. Alright Chris. We'll make sure that everything is on the site. Great. Thank you so much.

Chris (37:37):

Thank you Debra. So good to talk to you. And I just wish you all the best in this wonderful new endeavor and

Debra (37:42):

To you,

Speaker 3 (37:44):

Take care.

Debra (37:45):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube and Connect. You can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

“Don’t ever not be curious.” That’s Kris Evans’ advice for tapping into our creative superpowers. Evans is an awarding winning makeup artist with experience in feature films, television, commercials, music videos, fashion editorial and advertising.  She started her career in New York City working with Barbara Walters, Saturday Night Live, feature films and episodic television.  Her film career spans more than 35 features and includes working with Bob Costas for every Olympics from 2002-2016.

Transcript:

Hey Dareful tribe—you’re listening to one of your favorite episodes as an encore with artist Kris Evans. It originally posted in 2021 so a few updates: I talked with Kris this week and she says she’s back to work now that the actor’s strike is over. Look for her work in the TV show Big Sky for Disney and Francis Ford Coppola’s new film Megalopolis. She also just finished a book, Naked Shadows…hopefully more on that in a future episode. And now, Kris Evans:   

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling and I'm joined today by Kris Evans. Kris has built a thriving career in Hollywood for more than 40 years in every aspect of the arts that you can imagine. Kris, you've done makeup design for film, for tv, for Broadway. You've done it all.

Kris Evans (00:25):

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Gosh, I lived in Paris. I did fashion. It's opera. I mean, I think I love it all. So anything that gave me the opportunity to do whatever, that would be challenging and interesting I took. So I never really said no to anything. I said yes to everything. And then once I said yes, I thought, oh my God. And then I figured it out.

Debra (00:52):

And it sounds like we were talking about the creative process and how really your superpower now is the history that you have not only in the industry, but in the arts in general, and just being a really curious woman for your whole life. And while everyone else is looking at TikTok and trying to come up with something new, you are looking at vogue from the 1960s or things that we all know. Tell me more about your creative process.

Kris (01:22):

Well, I just find that because the internet is so easy to get to by everyone, that everyone goes to the internet. So when you're thinking creatively, everyone goes to Instagram or everyone goes to TikTok or everyone goes to Facebook. I mean, let's not say everyone, but a lot of people do. And I noticed that when I am on a project or something, it's the first thing that people go to is the internet. And so for me, in order to seem fresh and not like I'm copying or not grabbing something from someone else per se, recently, I like to go back in time or in different areas where I don't think people will go. So that what I see will maybe inspire me to think of something I wouldn't have thought of had I been influenced by other people, if that makes sense.

Debra (02:16):

It totally makes sense. And I was thinking about this this morning, getting ready to chat with you that I still have in one of my little girlhood boxes where you keep all your rocks and special shells. I have pages that I tore out of Vogue and Women's Day and Better Homes and Gardens from the 1960s that someone would leave in a spare bedroom. They were so glamorous. They were so lovely. And I still go back and enjoy looking at those images.

Kris (02:47):

Well, it's so funny you say sixties and seventies because now for me, the eighties is period, and then is period for me. So when they say, oh, the eighties, I say, aha. And then I bring in a picture of me in the eighties, blonde, bleached blonde, living in Paris, and they go, wow, who's that? Yeah, that would be me.

Kris (03:13):

And they go, my God, that's amazing. That's so creative. And I'm wearing a dress from the sixties, so it's kind of funny how everything look, what people say is that fashion repeats itself every seven years or history, receipt repeats itself every seven years. So everything has always been done. It's just what we decide to grab for us to think of. I just finished a show recently that's on HBO called Generations, and these are people in high school now, and it's present day, and they're very creative and they want to really be individuals. And so to look to see, to get that influence, they didn't want a lot of makeup. They didn't want that to be, but they wanted each person to have their own personality. So in order to see where the character is, you go back and you think how they would think if they were shopping. And so it helps to kind of have a history of pulling from things that they may know. They may shop at thrift stores and they may buy a sweater or something that's from the seventies or the eighties, that's design or whatever, but it's from a thrift store. So knowing that in the back of your head, because that's what I did, brings I think a freshness. A freshness to things that wouldn't necessarily have been there if I just would've gone to say Instagram.

Debra (04:36):

Where else do you go for inspiration?

Kris (04:39):

You know what? I hate to sound so glib, but just really everywhere. I mean, I'm always looking at artists. I'm always going to collections. I'm always, there's an artist at the LACMA right now that's kind of like a Hello Kitty, Ms. Kitty, that kind of Japan-y kind of bright colors. And so I'm looking at that. I look at, I loved Hemingway. I mean, believe it or not, there's a thing on Hemmingway now. I watched that and I watched the fashions of when it was in Cuba in the twenties and the thirties and the forties, and looking at him and how he dressed and just that period and the feel of it. And just anywhere I go outside flowers, colors, birds, I really love. I have a hummingbird feeder outside and I love to see the hummingbirds come and I look at the colors on their wings. I mean, I know this sounds crazy, but anywhere and everywhere I see things or different, I'm hooked on this one painter. I just discovered from an article in the Sunday New York Times. I go to the Wall Street Journal on Saturdays. They have an incredible fashion, a magazine, I think one of the best in the business. And so I'm flipping through that with what's current now. But then they're doing a thing on Halston, which is now going to be, I think on Netflix or Amazon. I did his makeup in the eighties. Oh,

Debra (06:12):

Okay. Because Ian McGregor is playing Halston.

Kris (06:17):

Yes. So to read about him and Liza Minnelli in Studio 54, hello. I was not there with Liza and Halston, but I was at Studio 54. I was there when they opened Limelight Grace Jones. I mean, these are things that I think personally, someone my age brings to the table where if you're working on Halston, and I did his JCPenney ads on the Intrepid back in the eighties in New York City. So that's history.

Debra (06:47):

Wait, we need to talk more about this. I mean, first of all, Halston, I love the documentary. If folks haven't seen that, it's great. That's great. When we used to do airplane rides, remember back in the day where you'd be able to watch movies. That was my favorite and his attention to detail of women's bodies, how he loved how everything just kind of hung and how beautiful he could make everyone. Tell us more about working.

Kris (07:14):

Well, I mean, listen, I only did his makeup for a press junket for photos. So I never did his shows. I did other shows. I did Calvin Klein and I did Perry Ellis, and I did, I never got to do Halston, unfortunately. But I worked with the models that he worked with Pat Cleveland and those guys. He was just so elegant. His office was incredible. I mean a showroom, it was next to the St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City and on a high floor, and it was all white and just huge. And he was so elegant, and I remember was dressed all in white or he'd be dressed all in black, and he always had these beautiful long fingers and smoking cigarettes and just so elegant. And it was so lovely. It was so nice. And so then when I did the JC Pennies, that was a thing that everybody thought, oh my God, how dare he do this?

Kris (08:08):

Meanwhile, he was one of the first ones to kind of sell his name to go. And then everybody else started jumping on the bandwagon to where they started then selling eyeglasses and Tom Ford and all these guys started doing all this other, Holston was one of the first, but he was kind criticized for unquote selling himself to JC Penney's, but it was a whole commercial with the stuff that he had designed on the Intrepid. So it was this wild shoot, and he was there, not a lot, but he was there. There was an advertising agency and so forth and so on. But I just remember him being really kind and very elegant. And of course, his clothes. I mean, look at Diane Von Furstenberg. Her dresses are coming back in style now. The rap dresses that made her so fat, so famous. Look at Norma Kamali. I did some stuff for her in New York City when she did all the sweatshirt dresses, and now that's all coming back. So they're all doing these interviews with Diane von Furstenberg or Norma Kamali. They're the new fashion icons now, and they were big in the eighties.

Debra (09:14):

No, and it's lovely to see these things coming back. First of all, to have these women entrepreneurs being properly recognized for the trailblazers that they are, right. And they're just so beautiful, the weight of their dresses, I can still feel how they felt on and how wonderful you felt in those clothes.

Kris (09:42):

And I will say really quickly, I remember walking down, it never made it to the New York Times, but there was a very famous photographer named Bill Cunningham, and he always rode around the streets of New York on his bike in his little jacket, his little Chinese jacket that he was, and his beret. It was always kind of an outfit. And he lived a very frugal life in Carnegie Hall. They had apartments there, and he lived among his file cabinets and a mattress on top of one of the file cabinets. Anyway, I had a Norma Kamala dress on with a sweater, and the Norma Kamala dress had horses on it, and it was flannel, and this was in the eighties, and I had a sweater on that had horses and jewelry, and I was walking down Madison Avenue, and this guy jumped off his bike and ran up to me and said, can I take your picture? I had no idea who he was. Sure. So he took my picture and he says, okay, bye.

Kris (10:25):

And realized later that it was Bill Cunningham, and he would go and take just pictures of the streets of New York, which to me is kind of a lost art. Now, there's a wonderful book of Bill Cunningham that, again, sometimes I flip through when I want to be creative and I want to see his photographs. Masterclass has this amazing thing on tv. Now, Annie Liebowitz, a whole thing that I worked with her for Vanity Fair. We did a shooting together to watch her work to page through her books. I mean, listen, I could spend weeks talking about Sarah Al talking about just talking about so many artists, makeup artists and painters and sculptors. I mean, rod and the colors that Van Gogh does and the impressionist. I mean, I could just go on and on and on, and that's where I get my creative ideas for what I want to do if I'm doing a show or a movie. It also depends on the director and who's with you and the creative things that you do together. Even commercials, I mean, anything you pull from anything,

Debra (11:38):

What you're saying. Now, also, the back and forth of that creative process reminds me of a story I heard about Ian McGregor and the Halston movie that he did for Netflix. And the person who, and I'm not remembering her name, who did all the clothing design, was also coaching him on how you would hold scissors, how you would pin garments, how you would drape. And he took it so to heart that during the early days of the pandemic, I hope I'm getting this story, he sewed a pair of trousers, which we know is really hard to do, first of all. And he just took her. I loved how he took her artistic spirit, her creativity, and he took it to heart and learned that task and that the work that's behind being creative that way and created this thing himself. And so I imagine as you're describing your creative life, that there's a lot of back and forth about the work ethic and learning from others as well.

Kris (12:45):

Oh, let me tell you, it is so important to be aware and to have a relationship with the costume designer. When you're working or when you're working, you're doing a photo shoot or something. The art director, I will tell you a really quick story. I did Once Upon A Time, the TV show. I did three seasons on that, and we did a whole thing of carnies, which were really bizarre. And Eduardo Castro was a costume designer for the first six seasons. His work is ridiculous. It's so beautiful. And we were talking one time and I said, carnies, they're so bizarre. I said, I don't want to do 'em like clowns. I want to do them. I want to have an idea. So he started showing me some of his designs, and we both looked at each other and I said, the film The Clowns Fellini.

Kris (13:35):

He goes, oh my God, yes. Oh my God, how great is that? Let's look at that. And the whole thing started from Fellini, the clowns. So we did all the hair and the makeup and the clothes to that, and I can't even tell you, they kept opening up on this one particular guy who had such an incredible face with a makeup I did that was this really surreal clown. And the wardrobe that Eduardo did that would've never, I think even don't even think of would've happened had we not gone Wait, what about that? Let's look at this. My point is, is that the experience that you bring with you, that you're constantly watching and constantly observing in certain things, that when you start your work, something sparks that in you and you mention it, and someone like Eduardo, who is also experienced and also understands it, jumps at it and goes, oh my gosh, that would be amazing.

Kris (14:33):

And then it's a team, and then you're excited. And so that every single project is new and different. I was doing the American cast for Phantom of the Opera, and they had of course done it in England, but when they came to the United States, they had the American cast. And so they had three originals there. But the whole cast, I went in and helped design for the makeup and so forth. And I was sitting at the preview and well, a gentleman came over and said, Kris, can I sit with you? We were kind of, they had us cut to the side and I looked over. It was one of the students I had had at the University of Cincinnati when I taught fashion design. And this guy had no idea how to sew. He couldn't even thread a needle cut to he's there, he comes and sits with me. He is now working for one of the top shops in New York City, and he has sewn two of the costumes for the opening of masquerade.

Debra (15:31):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (15:32):

And he sat with me, this was my student, and said, I can't even tell you how much I thank you for what you inspired in me to do this. I, and I don't say this to say, oh, we have no idea how we influence people's lives, because sometimes you never know. But that moment for me was one of the biggest highlights of my career, one of the biggest highlights of my career.

Debra (15:59):

That's amazing.

Kris (16:01):

Isn't that incredible? I mean, of all the things, and I still to this day, gosh, it's been 30 something years and we still are in contact. I'm still in contact with my students. I taught in 1978 and now they're designers. And one woman is this incredible costumer, and she does all the crazy wacko stuff for Conan. I mean, these are people I've known for years that are also so incredibly creative. I mean, she did all the crazy costumes of the Flintstones.

Kris (16:33):

I mean, this is the life that for me as an artist, my sister is an incredible artist. I come from a background where three out of the four kids were artists. My brother's a painter. My father's a graphic designer. My sister's an artist. She had a full scholarship. She had a master's degree in film. And so we are really lucky that I was surrounded by it. But we've always done that. I mean, as kids, my mom sent us to the art museum, do drawing and painting, and I think it's so important. I think we're losing it in our schools and we really need to keep it because I think especially in the Pandemic, if you think about how popular all this was, the arts were and the things that we were ordering and looking at and seeing where the arts were music and were paintings and were things that kept us going and kept us alive. So that's the creative part, I think is vital in life, regardless of what age you are.

Debra (17:37):

And I think as you say that I have, it feels like hunger to go to the LA County Museum of Art or the Getty, and not only look at Art Live, but would be with other people. I did not know how much I would miss just standing in a gallery with other people, whether or not we talked, but just being there physically.

Kris (18:01):

Well, LACMA just opened, and I'm a member of LACMA. I just opened. So I ordered tickets and we went there, and of course you have to do all the stuff in order to get there, but going in and they're renovating. So the old part of the museum is gone, but next to it is the, because I'm a member of the academy. The academy, so that museum is going to be opening September 30th, 2021. So that is going to be mind blowing what they're doing in that museum. And I agree with you. I mean, it is so important for us to keep connected. And so yes, those museums, to feel that energy to go and to see other people enjoying it is vital. But it's also the internet. Thank God we have that. But we also have books and we can't forget about books. The actual people laugh at me. I get the Wall Street Journal newspaper edition

Kris (19:03):

Still delivered to my house, and I cut out articles. I know that sounds crazy, but you forget about them on the internet. They go into some cyberspace or something. But I have files that I like to keep, and everybody laughs at me, but these magazines and these books that I get, I love them. Coffee table books. When Rosalie has a sale, it's deadly for me because these are the books, the Michelangelo and the Bill Cunningham, the one I got and stuff that I get. I just love the smell of them. I love, I don't know, that's just maybe me.

Debra (19:42):

No, no, I'm totally with you. And the Wall Street Journal, I am in solidarity with you. I also get the paper edition because I love wandering and as much as it's sort of laid out, and I read on my phone all the time too, I love cracking open the paper on Saturday and suddenly getting sucked into a book review that I had no idea I would want to read.

Kris (20:06):

Well, and the Sunday New York Times, I also get, and the thing is, what's really interesting is that when you get the style section, they don't online, you don't see the ads. But when I'm paging through the style section of the Sunday New York Times, and I see the ads for Prada or whatever, yes, you see them at other things, but when you see that in print or you see it in a magazine, I can't tell you how many tear sheets I've pulled. When I was first doing a TV show that I did, I went in and I took three characters that I thought of, and I pulled tear sheets for each one of those characters. And they were actual tear sheet tear sheets. And I came in and I talked to each one of the actresses. One of them opened it up and she looked at the tear sheet.

Kris (20:52):

She goes, yep, love that. Yeah, love that. Yeah, that's good. Now, these are physical tear sheets, right? Tear sheets from the magazine into the actual paper. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Can I take this over to this person and show this person right now? So they take over the file. Yep. Love that. Love that. So I would take these photographs that I pulled and we'd do these feel, and these looks for this, and I put it up on the mirror. So what they come in, that photograph was up on the mirror for them to look at, to get a feel of what they saw. It's not the same as with a computer.

Kris (21:26):

And so it inspired them as well to put themselves, I'm always, in fact, sometimes I'll text one of the characters that I worked with, one of the actors I worked on generation, he's great. And I'll say to him, oh, the Wall Street Journal men's section is out this Saturday. And he'll go, oh, great. I'll go get it. He's in his, I think late twenties, but I've got him hooked on this magazine of, and he's a total techie. So I just think that the younger and the quote unquote, I call them, the more mature generation, have so much to learn from each other that we really need to embrace what each other knows they teach me, but I teach them. And that's what I love about it, is the communication between the two of us. And I think sometimes now what happens is the more mature ideas are dismissed as old fashioned. But I think what we're finding, especially in this past year, that sometimes we can embrace that and that can make us feel more secure.

Debra (22:34):

I think also, I think that we take ourselves for granted a little bit our history. Sometimes I'll think, oh my God, you didn't live in 1983 when everyone was wearing funny little headbands or just whatever that thing is. I always assume that everyone has lived my life and remembers everything. And when you go back and talk about, well, here's what we used to do, or this is what we wore, or my gosh, look at this thing. I'm always sort of surprised that I have this knowledge.

Kris (23:07):

And here's the thing too is with the knowledge, my master's degree is in costume design. So everyone said to me, why didn't you go into costume design? You know what I felt like I wanted to have more hands on. I mean, costume designers are amazing, and they sketch and they do, but you hand it off to someone else. And I really love the kind of, because a painter, and I'm a sculptor, so I love the actual physical thing of doing the face and painting the face and doing the hair and styling. It was a hands-on thing. But I will tell you, and I taught costume history and costume design for eight years in universities design. And so in that knowledge of then going on, and for instance, like my friend Eduardo or Julian Markowski who does all the Marvel movies now, she's a friend of mine.

Kris (23:54):

I've done two or three movies with her. She's another one. Fantastic. Because of my knowledge in the history of costume, when they see a period of clothing to me, I know exactly what they're talking about. So we cut. It's like the Cliff Notes, if anybody remembers what Cliff Notes are, we cut to all the other stuff and we're on the same page very quickly. And they feel that you understand. And so immediately there's a relationship that you may not have if you didn't know that. They also know that they feel that you're in their corner and that you're working with them as a collaboration, that it's not a we'll do hair or we'll do makeup or we'll do wardrobe or costumes. But it is truly a combination, which as you well know in a movie is vital. I mean, look at Halston. If you didn't have the hair, you didn't have the makeup, you didn't have the wardrobe, you had one but not the other. That's not Halston. I mean, we could go on and on with all the different styles. And there's a TV show called Euphoria, which is the latest hottest thing now where the makeup is incredible and all that. But if you took that away, would it be the same show? No. And so that's how people relate to it. So all of this is a really visual thing.

Kris (25:17):

I can't wait to go into the movie theaters again and see the films on the big screen. I mean, to judge, because I judge for the Oscars, obviously, because in the academy, so to try to see these films on, I try to get as big a computer screen as I can, but it's still a computer. It's not the movie theater with the sound. I mean things like Mulan, which was a beautiful film. I mean even Nomad Land. To see that scope, even as simple as it was to see it Minne, just to see the lovely scope of it. Pinocchio, which is one of the most spectacular films in years, that Italian film, that it is actually live action. And the man who did all of the effects, makeup effects, which are out of this world, very little, CGI, which is the computer generated, most of it was prosthetic work, which is just mind blowing. And he talked about what they did and the artists that they saw and how they talked to each other and how they talked to director and the collaboration. And it's so vital. And what's exciting about it is that teamwork that where you feel like you're kind of a part of it, it's kind of nice to watch a movie that you're part of.

Debra (26:36):

Do you think that theaters are going to survive? Please say yes.

Kris (26:40):

Yeah, I think they will. And I'll tell you why. I think people are longing to get back together again, regardless of whether they're eating popcorn or you think, oh God, please, all the stuff that we used to make us crazy when you go to movie theaters, right? I was lucky I would go to the academy where there's no popcorn allowed and the beautiful movie screen in the gorgeous Academy theater where everybody just watched the movie. But I think, I mean, I jokingly say that, but I think everyone going to the movies, I think the laughter that you hear when people laugh or when you hear the collective brings more of a visceral feel to what you're watching when you're watching it with other people than when you're watching it in your house. If you pause it or you don't get the same kind of flow, it's not the same kind of experience, I think. But then again, I've been in that business for 40 years, so I'm such a theater geek and such a film geek. I mean, listen, I bought tickets to Hamilton three times and they were canceled three times because of the pandemic.

Debra (27:48):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (27:49):

And I'm still determined to see Hamilton on stage because there's nothing like it. There's nothing like live theater. There's nothing like

Debra (27:58):

Music Man, Hugh Jackman. It's got to happen.

Kris (28:01):

God. It's Sutton Foster,

Debra (28:03):

Right?

Kris (28:04):

Oh my God. In fact, I did a pilot called God Hollywood that was so great about the 1970s Hollywood, and it was written and produced Ted Griffith by Sutton Foster's husband. I said to him, I'm such a groupie about your wife. And he just looked at me because a lot of people that are in film that don't do Broadway, don't really know the kind of Broadway people, but I'm such a Broadway person. I mean, I also did Miss Saigon on Broadway.

Debra (28:30):

Oh my gosh.

Kris (28:31):

And Leah Solano, what a voice. And then 30 years later worked with Jonathan Price who won the Tony for Ms. Saigon, who played the engineer. And so talking to him about it again, I brought in programs from it, and he's paging through. He's very funny. He's a very funny guy. And so I don't know if everyone knows Jonathan Price was nominated, I think last year with Anthony Hopkins for the Pope. He was one of the popes. He's an incredible actor stage as well as screen. And he was paging through the booklet I was bringing. Oh yes, I went to college with him and oh, yes I did. It's just that kind of connection when you work with them and the stories that you have, it's just a beautiful creatively collection to bring to the table when you're doing your work. So I mean, it was such a lovely experience for me to work with him again.

Debra (29:27):

Well, building out on what we're talking about, what you're talking about here, you've had enormous success. And there was something you said to me that really resonated. And I've been thinking a lot about, you said, success isn't what you've done in the past. It's what you're doing now. And you get to a certain point in your life and in your career, and you know what success feels like and it feels good, and it's sometimes hard to try again, something new or be a beginner because we don't want the bad feelings. We only want the good feelings. And so there's a way that we can hibernate in our past success and not try something new and fail because we just love to wrap ourselves in that fluffy blanket of past success. And you're not allowing yourself to do that. Talk a little, teach me about courage and creativity.

Kris (30:20):

Well, I think the number one, for me personally in getting older, a thing that I always have to be aware of is fear, afraid of failing. Because especially now, everything is so upfront. It's instantaneous on the computer, it's instantaneous on the web. So if you mess up, it's fast. It's a Facebook, it's an Instagram people there. So everyone's afraid to push forward for fear of failing and then being talked about and then your career. And so I think for me personally, I always want to be challenged. And there's certain things that I can do and I'm very comfortable with because I've done them for a long time. I will say I'm lucky in what I do is because every job I do is different. It may be the same, for instance, if I'm doing a film or TV show or something, yes, in running the show is kind of the same if you department head, there's certain things that you do.

Kris (31:30):

However, because of the pandemic, everything has changed. And let me tell you, technically just doing the paperwork is now all online where it used to be paper. So if you're not savvy in that, the fear of coming in and not knowing that, where then they will view you as being a dinosaur because you don't know technically how to go online and do your paperwork and go online and do your timecard. All these little things that you don't think about is challenging, and you don't want to appear to look like you are not up to stuff snuff for right now. So that, but also creatively, you don't want them to think of you as being in the past. So you have to be careful that when you use your creativity of the past, you're bringing it to the present and possibly the future that it may look like this.

Kris (32:21):

Which brings me back to I am an information junkie. It keeps my mind fresh. I'm constantly reading. I get subscriptions to a lot of things. And I'm lucky because then I get the Hollywood reporter and I get the variety and I get all of those things which page through, and I can read all of that within the film business. But I also get, like I said, the Wall Street Journal, and I get the New York Sunday Times and I read them, and I find a lot of things going on in the world which keeps me fresh and current so that when a writer talks to me about something or there is a present day of what's happening now, the TikTok and you kind of know the background of TikTok and it's a Chinese company. And when Trump did he, it's all that kind of silly stuff that is conversation that you're part of the conversation in the present with everyone you're working with.

Kris (33:19):

So they don't think of you as the past. They think of you as right now, regardless of what you look like or how old you are. Now, I will also say it is very important to keep yourself healthy. I've done yoga 40 years, 40 years, and I am in good shape. And there's certain things that happen. They just happen. It's how it is. But as far as where I am and how I keep myself and how I dress coming to work, because on a film set, you can be kind of comfortable. I come to work every day. I'm going to work. I am the department head, and I come to work knowing that I'm the head. So I don't come in sweatpants and I don't come in schleppy clothes. I come dressed to work. That's a mindset. And I think that it's important regardless of what age you are or where you are in your life or your business, that your mindset has to be there and that you have to constantly aware, be aware of moment to moment to moment. And I think the moment we lose that is when we start unquote getting older, if that makes sense.

Debra (34:39):

It does make sense. It feels so soft and cozy to go back into the things that we're good at.

Kris (34:45):

Sure.

Debra (34:46):

We really have to decide that we're going to do something hard and we're going to fail and that, and we're just going to be present even in those feelings of inadequacy and painful learning.

Kris (34:58):

Well, and also what happens is, is that because let's really be blunt here, there are a lot of people losing their jobs who are older, fifties, sixties, where they thought this was going to be their life, and now it's not that they're being hired, they're being retired to bring in the younger set who for whatever reason, either they didn't keep up with technology or they did, but now the younger is less expensive because it's a business, let's face it, that we really even more so have to be aware and we have to keep up with what is current. And it's not easy to learn all that stuff technically. And to be honest with you, as an artist, I'm not interested in learning all that computerized stuff, but I have to because that's part of the job now. And if you want to stay current in where you are in the job, you have to embrace what's happening now, whether you like it or not. And again, the fear you have to embrace. Now, I'm not saying this is easy, and I'm not saying it gets easier as you get older it, it gets more challenging, but it also to me is more, I find more exciting when I know that I'm still able to step up to the plate and pull it off.

Debra (36:30):

That's right.

Kris (36:32):

And I'll say very proudly, I am 66 years old, and I was working with actors and actresses that were in their twenties and their thirties. They were amazing. And I learned from them and they learned from me, and I kept up with them every moment. And I made sure that I was on the same page all the time because it was important to me. And I adored them. They were so wonderful and so smart and funny, and they gave me that feeling of youth, and I gave them the feeling of experience. And there was one of the actors that I work with come in and go, what about this? And I go, okay, yeah, we can do that, but I'm just telling you from experience, blah, blah, blah. And they would stop and go, oh yeah, you're right. I didn't think about that. Okay, let's try this. So we can embrace each other. We don't need to think that each person is either too young or over the hill. I think we have to be really careful on that because we're losing so much if we don't listen.

Debra (37:40):

And I wonder also if a lot of that's inside our own heads.

Kris (37:44):

Absolutely. With out the monkey mind, which is why meditation now, again, I am not a great meditator. I meditate, but I'm not good because my mind never stops. I have one of those monkey minds that just continues and continues. I have a hard time sleeping. I do okay. In the film business, the hours are always crazy. So you're always going to work at five in the morning on a Monday and wrapping at 6:00 AM on a Saturday. I mean, it's just so your body kind of is all over the place. That's the way it is now. So that can be challenging, but I also know that it's very important for me to keep my mind sharp. And it becomes more and more difficult sometimes. And it's easy, like you say, to kind of settle back to what's comfortable. But right now, what's comfortable, it's not happening right now.

Kris (38:47):

The world is changing and it is changing at a very rapid pace. And so I'm not saying all of this is easy, but the payoff is pretty great because you are still aware, and I love these, I love Grandma Moses who started painting at 77. I think that's pretty incredible. And we could go on with the artists, we can go on with the artists who are older or whatever, and they started, or actresses or actors who became famous or designers or whatever, and they brought stuff to the page that we didn't think about that we thought were old fashioned, that are now in style that feels so fresh. So again,

Debra (39:36):

So before we leave each other, this is a two part question, which is what advice would you give your past self and what advice will your future self give you today?

Kris (39:50):

Well, it's really easy to give advice to your past self because it's past. Someone once said to me, be careful to constantly look in the rear view mirror of life because it's behind you, and if you're going to get anywhere, you really do have to look forward. So my past self, I just wish I would've believed in myself more. I wish I wouldn't have listened to so many people tell me how it should be, that I would've really listened to the voice inside me and to my gut every time I didn't listen to my gut. Now, there were times in my past life that were out of my control, but I lingered too long in it being out of my control, and I should have realized, okay, for whatever reason, you need to move on. And so that may have helped me. I have to say though, I feel really lucky because I am from Ohio, so what I've seen and what I did, I'm pretty proud of myself.

Kris (41:00):

I really have to say, and I don't say that in any kind of dismissive way or egotistical way. I worked really hard and I've been around the world, so I've been really lucky. My future self is to just keep moving and to constantly learn and to not stop. Sometimes I'll take the break and I'll take a breath and some things will slow me down, but I don't want to ever not be curious. I don't want to ever stop learning and enjoying, and if I see something beautiful, it makes me cry. Just thinking about it now, I never want to lose that vulnerability because to me, that's life. That's what keeps you creative, and that's what keeps you alive. The moment you don't have that is the moment. Yeah, it's time. I think that's just me,

Debra (41:53):

And I think I would love to share in the show notes, I have this reading list now from just our discussion. I want everyone of our tribe here to be looking at Bill Cunningham, if you don't already know his beautiful work and his life, and we'll put our heads together on some other things that we'd like to share.

Kris (42:14):

I could give you a list that would, I mean, forget about it years. You could. I mean, I am such a book junkie. I have so many great, beautiful books that I could recommend. Definitely.

Debra (42:23):

Perfect. Well, we will do that. Well, Kris, thank you so much for joining today. We're going to have to come back and do 2.0 of this because it seems like we have a lot more to cover, and in the show notes, we'll get it started and maybe we can have a bigger conversation about, we'll start a reading assignments.

Kris (42:42):

You know what, I would love that just because look at all these book clubs that people get together and they discuss things and just, I did a webinar really quickly and they said, read 20 pages a day, just 20 pages a day. You'll learn, you'll read 30 books a year, 20 pages a day, even to just browse through them. So there you go. Okay. Thanks so much. Such a pleasure and such an honor. Thank you so much for asking

Debra (43:11):

Me. Thank you so much. So much fun today.

Kris (43:15):

Okay. Thank you. Take care.

Debra (43:18):

Thank you for listening to the Dareful Project. It really helps us grow our tribe. When you like and share and subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or Audible or wherever you enjoy podcasts, that really helps us to be able to grow what we're doing here. You can also visit us at the dareful website, the dareful project.com. There you can sign up for our weekly newsletter, and that's another way where we can keep you posted on upcoming podcasts and adventures that we're going to be curating over the coming months. And always, I would love it if you would talk to me. I'm Debra Hotaling, and you can reach me at Debra at Dareful one. That's D-E-B-R-A at dareful. Then the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Remember that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts tries to buy a new dress and no one will take her money? That’s how it feels to be a 50+ consumer.

Then there’s Caddis. CEO and Founder Tim Parr says it’s a mission disguised as an eyewear company: “Get Older. Own It. See Stuff.” And we totally believe it. Who else would have the cajónes to quote Miss Piggy, describe one of their eyeglass styles as a “dab of Harvey Wallbanger” (when was the last time you ordered one of those?) and embrace cranky online reviews in their advertising?

Listen to how Parr and his team are breaking all the rules in a completely awesome way.

Here’s Caddis

And here’s the nonprofit it helps support: Caddis donates a portion of gross revenue to music education programs via Music Farming. Learn more here.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling: Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. So you know that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts has this handful of money and no one will take it so that she can buy a dress. That's how I feel as a consumer being over 50. Either I am completely invisible or they somehow think that the only thing I want to do is walk down a beach and wear a little soft knitted sweater. But then there's Caddis. Caddis says it's a mission disguised as an eyewear company, and that feels completely true to me. And joining us today is the CEO and Founder Tim Parr, who's going to talk to us about how they are breaking stuff and having way too much fun for a brand and how they got there. Tim, welcome.

Tim Parr:              Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Debra:                  So if you don't mind, I would like to start by reading the language that's on the back of the box. Amazing. So this is what it says, folks. It says this is for people who are not in the long process of giving up. It has everything to do with age, but nothing to do with your job, your gender, or whether you live in Orange County or Hazard County. It has to do with being who you are and owning it. Tim, where did that come from?

Tim:                       That was just a late night. The bottom of this box is all white, and I hate that and I want to put something on the bottom of that.

Debra:                  Come on. It's more than that though.

Tim:                       I know. That actually came before we were even on a mission. So prior to that being written, we were just, and we're just an eyewear company looking for money and we hadn't even shipped anything yet because we had no investors. We didn't have anything. So yeah, someone was talking just the night before about how fifties and new forties, sixties and new fifties I, I don't get it. And if this is going to be a lifestyle brand, you have to be authentic in order to be a lifestyle brand. And I don't understand this whole position on age and reading glasses. There's no better product about it to have a conversation about age than reading glasses. But at the time that I wrote that, it was a subconscious thing. And then I had someone read that to me who didn't like it, a potential investor, and she said, you can't do that.

Debra:                  Wait, talk to me more about that because that feels exactly true how those conversations would go.

Tim:                       And I asked her, well, why can't I do that? And they said, no one wants to believe that they're the age that they actually are. And everyone wants to think that they're 15 years younger. And that was the end of the meeting. And I had to pack up my things and walk down three, five flights of stairs to the sidewalk. And when I hit the sidewalk, that's when it hit me. Oh my God, we're actually in the age business. We're not in the eyewear business. We're in the age business. And that's when everything shifted.

Debra:                  And what was the thinking beyond that? Because I know from other entrepreneur friends, when you go back and you tell the origin story, it sounds like, of course that was obvious, but at the time you're like, I am all by myself here and every force is telling me that this is a ridiculous idea.

Tim:                       Well, we didn't have our why prior to that moment, and every brand needs a why. If you don't have a why, then you're just making stuff. And if you're just making stuff, I don't care. It's not enough to get me out of bed. So it was at that moment that it was, oh my God, now we have a why and it's David and Goliath. It's all these things that we need in order to have to be propelled forward.

Debra:                  And then what happened after that?

Tim:                       I was running down the street and I called up, I had at the time probably four co-founders and I was calling 'em each up. And I told them, this is a pivot almost of sorts. This whole idea that people are afraid of their age is exactly what this whole brand is going to be about. And I got a mixed bag of results of I don't know about that and two sounds good to me. Let's go. So it was quite the thing. It was like six years ago before the age conversation had entered somewhat a pop culture of where it is today. So it was really new and different and it felt right because it was such a taboo subject. It's less taboo today, but back then it felt really, I guess taboo is the best way to put it.

Debra:                  Yeah. I remember in a past life sitting with marketing colleagues after sitting through a terrible marketing pitch where the over 50 folks, we were told that they were sad and the whole marketing pitch was going to be, we're going to make 'em happy again. I'm like, I just went surfing to Costa Rica. I am not sad at all. I've got money, I've got some time, and I got to get some stuff done here. And so I went back to my marketing colleague and I said, where's the data on this? What is it? Where are you getting the fact that I really want a 20 year old face telling me how I should feel? And he's like, oh, everybody knows that. Plus I would get killed in my own career if I decided that I was going to start representing over 50 folks. It just felt like this giant wall and even talking about it, to your point, that it was an absolute taboo.

Tim:                       Yep, yep. It's so ingrained in American culture, which makes it great. And having been born and raised on eighties punk rock and the rest of it, it felt in board sport culture, it was so familiar. Everyone's going this way, thinks this way, alright, we're going to go that way and stir the pot that way.

Debra:                  Was it easier to find money once you pivoted that way and found your why?

Tim:                       Yes.

Debra:                  That's interesting.

Tim:                       Yes, because at that point people understood the market originally before that, everyone brought up Warby Parker. They would say, well, Warby Parker does this. I go, no, they don't. Our original position was reading glasses and Warby does reading glasses, but it's an afterthought and it's a millennial brand and this is for people over 45 or 40 and you can't be all things to all people. So give them that younger demographic and we'll take everyone over 40.

Debra:                  And you guys are so true to that. I want to read the entire thing I have here, but here's an example, folks, these terrific aviators and the description on the aviators is these classic wire frame aviators or throwing it back to the days of doing fun stuff without helmets, seat belts or sunscreen. And I cannot believe that you got a lawyer to sign off on that.

Tim:                       There's a few things that my cell phone would ring off the hook with attorneys that I probably shouldn't get into. But yeah, I got some great attorneys.

Debra:                  And once you got out into the wild with this, was it a hit right away or did you have to feel your way through to your voice and find the audience?

Tim:                       So there's two ways to answer that. One way with the product, I feel it was a direct hit, right? People at the right time with the right stuff at the right price. So I feel in that regard, it was a direct hit and then started to pick up on the brand position. And I think all brands always are feeling their way through culture. So we may have started off a certain way, but even next week we'll be doing things a little bit differently than we did last month. And that's because brands are organic and we have to change with them and whatever our audiences are doing.

Debra:                  Your motto is get older, own it, see stuff. What has surprised you about the journey of that?

Tim:                       Oh man, so much has surprised me. I'm surprised at how clear people understand what we're doing. That actually surprises me because as brand people, marketers, however you want to put it, product manufacturer or product designers, all we can do is send messages out and once we send them out, we have no control over them. So it's perceptions and what they're going to do with it is really we're at the mercy at, and that's the way it always works and always has worked. So when the messages started to come back to us exactly how we wanted them to be, I was really surprised about that. People got it.

Debra:                  That must've been thrilling.

Tim:                       It was.

Debra:                  Because until that moment you're like, am I shouting out into the universe and is anything going to come back?

Tim:                       Right? That's right. And there's a part of me that's like, well, I don't care because it's the right thing to do regardless. I just knew it's the right thing to do and I don't mean right thing to do in order to make money. It's just the right thing to do. And so in some ways I protect myself against is this bad? Is it good, is it right, is it wrong? Because that can be a dark hole to go down. So having said that, the first week we were getting people taking selfies, and I'll never forget this woman in the Midwest somewhere bought a pair of Got 'em. And this was probably the first month of shipping product and being online, she just had the simple statement of, I guess being old is now cool. And honestly that's like, okay, I'm done. Month one, mission accomplished. And that was probably my biggest surprise. And then we've had really good, amazing people who have joined our mission, whether they be actors or activist or artist or fashion or music, asking how they can help. And they do help in a bunch of different ways. So that's always surprising and it's just a nice surprise. I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Debra:                  And it feels real in that way. There are so many brands you can see that they've plugged in. Here's our token person over a certain age and it just feels tired and condescending. But you guys, I can tell that you get juice from this. You are excited to have faces that are really badass, are beautiful, and are not just like, here's our token old person. I mean you guys are really, juiced is just the right word. I can tell that you guys are in the flow of something really exciting when you do this and it feels true with your partnerships. Who do you have? Bobby Brown, right?

Tim:                       Yeah, she's great.

Debra:                  And everything that you do feels true to that brand. I mean, how does that work on a day-to-day basis? I dunno. Tell me your day. How does that work?

Tim:                       I So how does it work? How does it You mean the authenticity C

Debra:                  Component? Yeah. Yeah.

Tim:                       It helps that we are the target demographic. I am not good enough. I mean I've done this my entire life, these types of things, but I am not good enough to sit in a room and lead teams on communicating or creating products for 18 to 25 year olds. I can't. So this is one of those rare opportunities where we can use 30 years of experience in brand and marketing and positioning to the same people. We were doing that 30 years ago in some of the similar ways and be authentic because we are the market, we are the industry that we're trying to talk to. So for us it's just conversations.

Debra:                  And your own journey on this, you were Patagonia, what were the experiences that sort of have culminated over your own career that you suddenly went, oh my God, I've got all of this, I now can do this other amazing thing. What have been those experiences that you've tapped in on?

Tim:                       Yeah, so I've had a bike company, clothing company consultancy. I worked at Patagonia. They're all in the same vein of action sports. And I mean you just learn along the way. And now it's challenging because now we're in a, I don't know if we're still in it, but we're coming in and out of e-commerce as being such a driving force and businesses. So it's been interesting to marry those old school tactics and communication strategies with new school marketing techniques. So I mean wired for brands, I intrinsically understand them or certain ones, I say them, not all of 'em. So in order to take those tenants that drives those feelings and emotions and thoughts that are embedded in things and then take that and try and weave it into online marketing has been new and different. Yeah, I mean I learned something new every day, to be honest still. And that's exciting.

Debra:                  What do you think brands, not Caddis, but other brands, what do they not get about our demographic?

Tim:                       They don't understand the three dimension characteristics of let's just call it our demographic because they don't think that we matter or they think that they already got us or that there's no point in investing in this demographic because you're going to Peter out in five years. So we might as well take that money and put it into someone 30 years old because then we'll have them for the next 20 instead of the next five. All that's being challenged at the moment. I remember sitting in big meetings and you'll have very distinct architecture of 18 to 25 year olds, 26 to 35 year olds, 35 to 44, and we'll do psychographics, we'll do demographics. We'll architect these people to the NS degree in order to understand behavior in, and then that drives product design, it drives marketing. And then I always remember 55 plus and in that group was always just defined by average household income.

Debra:                  It's like those old maps where it just, the ocean just kind of goes off the plane there, right?

Tim:                       It's a great analogy. Yeah's

Debra:                  30 years though, but it would be the same as going baby and a 30 year old, kind of all the same thing.

Tim:                       And then the fact that a 45 year old or a 50 year old has different purchasing behaviors than a 60 year old, which is different than a 70 year old. And these people are relevant and they want to be talked to, they want to be communicated to because that helps them make purchasing choices that they're used to instead of everything stopping. And you're kind of left on your own because I mean, we're social animals, so we want brands to group people so we can talk to one another so we can make decisions together so we don't have to do all the work independently.

Debra:                  And you're the perfect brand that way. I got to admit I'm loyal to you and when I see somebody else wearing Caddis, I'm like, we're part of the same tribe. But you guys have done that. I get that right?

Tim:                       Yeah. And some of it is, it's subconscious for us, it's just how we know how to do it. And it worked. Everything lined up. So again, these are all things that we've known for 30 plus years and how Ashton Sports was created. Thrasher magazine, the birthplace of a lot was in that publication. So we just come from a time and a place that things were done a certain way and we just want that to continue as we age.

Debra:                  Well, you talking about skater culture, now this makes way more sense to me that I can't believe you guys did this. Alright folks. So in this brochure, they not only have all of the good reviews, they put the bad reviews in too. And there's a woman named Diane who only gave you two stars, man. It says just like mullets, these glasses were never cool. Why bring back ugly?

Debra:                  You put that in your brochure. I love that so much.

Tim:                       Yeah, that was fun.

Debra:                  I can't believe you did that either. But now I get it though, the skater culture, that totally makes sense to me now.

Tim:                       And yes, that's exactly correct. I had to fight a bit to get those in there and some people just wanted, let's just put two or three in there. I'm like, no, we're going to put as many good ones as we can find and we're not going to make 'em smaller and the good one's bigger. No, this is all just putting it on the table and it's a position of strength and it's defining who we are. And if we had a bunch of positive five star reviews, my mom can sit there and write those reviews and then we can put 'em in a catalog and we're good to go. That I never understood that. But if you put the collective and then people can make a choice.

Debra:                  Well, not only that, they want to believe, but I want to read them now. I don't want to read the five star reviews for sure you're going to do that, but I'm sort of remembering that you guys even did a little online ad campaign around this is our ugliest glasses, says Diane, one star. And you turned it around and you made it into, as you said, a strength. And I'm like, that's kind of how I feel right now in my life that I may not be pretty in the conventional way of what I was at 20, but there's still some strength to that sassiness. And so I don't think I've loved you more than what I saw those terrible reviews.

Tim:                       Well, what's funny is that when this idea started online on Instagram and I would pull all the terrible Instagram reviews and comments because the internet's an ugly place and these trolls just will show up anywhere. You could be Mother Teresa and I'm sure she's got trolls as well. I mean it's unbelievable. So I would put 'em up there and then like clockwork, you could set your watch and within minutes our people would come calling and just call them out about how wrong they are. And we get hundreds of comments of like, no, no, no, that's not right. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was a cattle call and everyone would come and put a comment, like a positive comment, and it created a community for a brief moment.

Debra:                  Well you're reminding me of Tesla. Tesla fired their PR firm because they had the Tesla boys. You can't go into that community without and disrespect Tesla without somebody showing up and talking back to you online. It's a very tight community.

Tim:                       So people care, which is nice.

Debra:                  Yeah. So have there been other brands that have come to you going, how did you find these people that you call over 50? Look, they have money, they want to buy things. Are other brands coming and trying to understand more?

Tim:                       Yes, I think it's a short answer on that one. I think people are starting to realize that 45 to 65 is a great or whatever, 45 to 70, 45 to 75. It's a great customer.

Debra:                  In what way?

Tim:                       So the space is somewhat quiet, so it's not like the majority of consumer products are targeting them. So we can have an actual conversation with them without tons of noise. They are intelligent, they have seen a lot and they know a lot and we can just assume certain things with them and we can move forward with that understanding. So we're not lasting marketing messages to the general population, which is that doesn't do anyone any good, but we're not crafting a message for 18 to 25. We're not crafting a message for 30 to 40. We're crafting one message for a very focused group of people, which is not a small group of people

Debra:                  And keep me honest here, but I imagine that you actually pull a good number of that younger demographic.

Tim:                       We do, but we don't acknowledge it. So we will get Shopify data all the time. And I'm always amazed at how many people, let's call it like 25 to 40 are buying glasses. But we do nothing to promote that business. But if they wanted to buy glasses, that's great. And this is something that I learned from Yvonne Chenard who I got to work directly with at Patagonia. He knew damn well that the person that pays the bills was the guy going from Connecticut to Wall Street. Those people were buying a lot of clothing every day, and the person that was actually living out of their sleeping bag in Yosemite Valley was the benefactor of that. So you can sell things to a wide range of people, but the message and the focus is on a very distinct group.

Debra:                  Does it get any more complicated now that you're super successful?

Tim:                       I'll never consider myself super successful. So that solves that problem. Okay. Does it get more complicated? Yes, it does.

Debra:                  In what way?

Tim:                       In what way? I would just pin it on growth. Growth is an interesting concept and how you approach it and how you feel about it and the strategies that you put in place. I mean, it's fun, but it's harder. Yeah, it's harder. I mean you can just think when we had six styles and two or three clicks and you're done shopping kind of experience, it's a lot different than now. We have prescription, we do sunglasses. Everything just gets more complex the bigger you get.

Debra:                  You don't need to tell tales out of school on this, but would you consider expanding the brand to be other things outside of glasses?

Tim:                       Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a big fan of having the community drive what we do next. And one of the strongest things that I'm hearing back is how can Caddis be a platform for this community to move the model from products to platform? I'm pretty excited about platforms. What that means is that you have this for a gross word, let's call it a brand platform. We can do reading glasses, we can do prescription glasses, we can do sunglasses. How about if we do retreats, if we do media events and it kind of, what should we do? And I really listen to the masses and our customer base and we're hearing a lot of, we want in real life events and we want community and we have it. We just need to be a catalyst for people to gel together.

Debra:                  I love this. Could it be like Coachella for us? Could it be music?

Tim:                       Yeah, yeah. Actually our brand's big in the music. We actually have been, this is something that a lot of people don't know, but we've been giving a percentage of each product sale to music education. So yes, it could be all those things.

Debra:                  Or maybe surf camp.

Tim:                       Could be that too.

Debra:                  I love what you're saying here because that absolutely makes sense. And I think after Covid, I don't know about you, but I just don't want to do another, here we are talking on Zoom. I wish that we were in the room together because I'm really over zoom, I'm over online. I don't want to do another yoga class remote. I just want to sit with people. I will go see anybody speak because I just want to sit in a room with other humans and have an experience together. That's right. And finding other folks who are interesting to talk to.

Tim:                       So as we look at growth, that's what's going to drive the growth beyond the products that today

Debra:                  That feels true to the brand and also surprising. So that is super exciting. When should we start looking for some interesting things to drop?

Tim:                       Oh, that's a good question. Some form of it. Next year.

Debra:                  Okay, well next year's almost here. So

Tim:                       I know.

Debra:                  No stress.

Tim:                       No stress.

Debra:                  So for other folks who are thinking that they want to start something new again, part of your mantra here is that start the thing that you've been overtalking about. What's your advice for stopping, overthinking and starting to do the thing? How do you begin?

Tim:                       You begin. So the other side of the coin to action is fear. So most people when you talk to 'em about starting something new, they're really excited about it. But the thing that prevents that first step, all roads lead back to fear. And I think as soon as you know that and you can address it and you can say to yourself, okay, what am I so scared? So then you're not just blind to why you're not moving forward. You can jump straightforward to what am I scared of and how can I mitigate that? Or what do I need to do in order to manage that better? Because it's crippling me

Debra:                  And just saying it out loud SAPs it of some of its power. Right?

Tim:                       Totally. Totally. Because it sounds silly. And then when you get it out in the open, you realize that it starts to lose power over you. So that's always good.

Debra:                  Alright, well we're going to get started thinking about our fear and moving forward and owning it. So glad that you're in the world and I can't wait to find out what happens next.

Tim:                       Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that,

Debra:                  Tim. Thanks again. It's a fun one. Thanks again. Appreciate you.

Tim:                       Okay, thank you. Bye Debra.

Debra:                  Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube and Connect. You can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 ###

Ageist Founder David Stewart thought he was moving temporarily to Park City, Utah from Los Angeles. Four years later, he’s still there. And he has done a lot of reflecting about what we gain and lose when we move somewhere new. Whether you’re thinking about downsizing, starting new in an Italian village or chucking it all and RV’ing around the country, David has thoughts. 

We also talk about Ageist’s SuperAge quiz. Here’s more on what it means to be a Dolphin, Fox or Owl. (See who you are by taking the quiz.)

Dolphin: Dolphins are playful and curious, enjoying life in moderation. They value health and wellness without being fanatical. Their SuperAge strength is their ability to relax, but they might overlook simple actions that could enhance their SuperAging journey.

Fox: Foxes are clever and adaptable, taking an active role in their wellness. They collaborate with practitioners to reach health goals. Their SuperAge strength lies in their curiosity and thoughtful investigation. However, they can be tripped up by contradictory information.

Owl: Owls are high achievers, gathering information to create a personal program. They are independent and mindful, striving to be the best version of themselves. Their SuperAge strength is their insight and drive to understand and improve. However, with all that info, they sometimes lose the plot.

And here's David's recent essay. Sign up for Ageist's weekly newsletter here. 

My current situation is one of accidental transience. We left Los Angeles in early COVID for a smallish mountain town in Utah. Out of architectural obsession, we bought a 1982 townhouse in a ski resort with the idea we would renovate it and then rent it seasonally. This meant it could not be our “home” in the normal sense, as we couldn’t have our personal stuff out if we were vacation renting it. This temporary solution has now been almost 4 years, much of which has been spent pondering exactly where we should live more permanently. Although I miss all the art and books and memories that are boxed in a storage unit, I miss them less and less every day. Not having them here means we have tremendous flexibility about where we can be: either here in the vacation rental or in New York, Los Angeles, or some other place. But it is also lonely, if that is the word for missing my things.

This is all a lot of heavy thinking around how we define ourselves, what gives us comfort, and where we find meaning. My friend Carlo has a rule: never live in the same place more than 3 years — it keeps the flow of new place-energy going. The downside is: it is very hard to plug in to a new community every 3 years then abandon it. Steven Meisel, the great Vogue photographer, once said he is not interested in having a retrospective of his considerable accomplishments, as it would force him to focus on the past and he is only interested in the future. My good friend Rob, about 5 years ago, sold his big house and moved to an apartment in Santa Monica. At this point, he still had a nice car, home furnishings, exercise gear, and the like. Since then, he has become basically nomadic, staying in various apartments around the world for a few months here and there. The car and the stuff are all gone. As he told me yesterday, he has never felt better or freer in his life. Rob is a very future facing guy. On the other end of the spectrum are a couple I know who bought a giant old house on a big property and have stocked it with all their lifetimes' accumulation of stuff. It feels homey, but the maintenance of it is a way of life.

I have chosen a life filled with variety: I love big cities and my big city friends while, at the same time, I love the mountains and my outdoorsy friends. What I really don’t like is being bored. I once had a proper house, filled with my stuff. Each weekend was about Home Depot, the Garden Center, and other chores. Now I have an HOA, some of whom are at this very moment painting the outside of our unit, which allows me the mental space to be able to write this. When I was younger, I identified more with what I did and the stuff I had. Certain stuff still warms my heart, like some of the baby artifacts that my mom managed to hold onto from my very early toddler days. There is something warming about feeling the continuum of history. As we get a bit older, some people become the Marie Kondo editors of their lives, others become collectors. I feel somewhere in the middle: missing some things, but not wanting to become an indentured caretaker of them. Maybe home is where our things are?

 

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. We are talking today with Ageist Founder David Stewart, about a subject that I have had with all of my friends, and that is where do we live? Do we stay in our home? Do we downsize? Do we move to Europe or closer to the kids or chuck it all and get an RV and live off the grid and go explore the country? I don't know, every day it's a different solution and we're all talking about it. And then I read David's lovely essay in Ageist’s weekly newsletter, which if you don't already, please sign up for it. It's brilliant. And the essay starts, my current situation is one of accidental transience. That's brilliant. And the whole essay is lovely, and David is going to tell us more. David, welcome.

David Stewart (00:57):

Thank you. It's great to be here, Debra.

Debra (00:59):

So how did you get where you are physically and spiritually? I guess there's so many layers to this.

David (01:09):

And they changed daily. So my accidental transient happened in March of Covid. So what happened was we were living, we had a loft in downtown Los Angeles in the Arts district. It was on the 10th floor. So we required taking an elevator, and I think it was about the middle of February. We have a good friend who works in high level medical community here for Intermountain Health. And she called us and she said, listen, this Covid thing, this is a real issue and you're going to have to think about leaving soon. And I said, oh, alright. She says, you've probably got about a month. Well, I think it was maybe two weeks later, she called me on a Wednesday and she says, you've got till the end of the week you need to leave. And I said, okay. And at this point, we were sort of living life in a hazmat suit because nobody knew what was going.

(02:09):

It was super scary. You had this potentially fatal, unknown airborne pathogen. You got an elevator, which putting those two things together, that doesn't sound like a good idea. And then we were going to the grocery store and masks and gloves and taking our Clorox and our vegetables. Nobody knew what was going on other than a lot of people were dying. And so my friend said, listen, they're going to shut things down. You need to leave. So I said, okay. And she lived here and she's married to my best friend who also lives here. And they had shut essentially the entire town of Park City down. There was no one here. And so we were able to rent a really lovely condo on the mountain for basically the utilities because there was no one here. And so when we arrived here, it was super freaky Debra.

(03:04):

It was like something out of a Stephen King plague movie. There were just no humans. There may be 10,000 units of housing in the area that I live. And once a week we'd see a light, we'd go, oh, there's a human over there where you'd see a car. It was just bizarre. And we stayed here, and then a few people sort of came back. And then what happened was we thought, well, this is actually really nice. Maybe we should think about this. And we became architecturally obsessed with a particular development of condos that were built in 1982. And we just thought, oh, these are so cool. And we sold our loft after the race riots. Remember that downtown la after that calmed down, we sold our loft and we were like, well, we're just going to wait for one of these to come out of the market.

(03:58):

And one did. And what happened was the poor people who sold it hired a dumb, dumb realtor who didn't put it on the park city MLS. They put it on the Salt Lake City, MLS. Nobody knew about it. And our realtor did. And he came in the market, he was like, full price here, now buy it. And he was like, well, I think you're overpaying by about $3,000 and we don't care. Just buy it. And so it's worth more than double that today. So it was like the deal of a lifetime. We spent a year rehabbing it. And so we were here, but it wasn't really an intentional thing. We just sort of were here. And then during Covid it was okay because nobody was traveling anywhere and everything was Zoom and it was super weird. But that's sort of changing. So last year, I think I skied 110 days last year, which is crazy.

(05:02):

But my current state of mind on this has changed. And I think I just want a lot, Debra. I just want a lot and I want living in the mountains and I want to be able to ski and I want to be around the animals. And it's so beautiful here. But on the other hand, this is, I'm going to sound like a bad mean person, but this is essentially a large retirement village. And people come here, they've made some money, they've come here and they sort of check out. They're not interested in building, creating, collaborating, making impact in the world. They've either already done that or they're never interested in that, or they just sort of want to be here and enjoy all the amazing outdoor stuff. And I realized, I was just in Los Angeles last week and I was around some really switched on people and I'm thinking, these are my people. I need to be around more of this. And I read you a quote that a friend of mine told me said, wow, I feel like Park City is a retirement village. This is like, I just made this discovery. And he was like, he says it's a retirement village. For those who made money in a professional sinkhole for those who fell for the idea they could continue to grow here. That's correct.

Debra (06:26):

Yikes.

David (06:27):

Yikes. So yeah, I know. Harsh, but correct. And I think that this, when thinking about where to live, you sort of want to think about what do you want? And when I lived in Manhattan for about 25 years and every weekend I was just fantasizing about how can I get out of here? Where can I go? I'm going to go to Hawaii this weekend. I'm going to go wherever because you can't, at least I couldn't do that. I was living on Canal Street. It was mental. And you just can't take that kind of intensity all the time when you get away. But then it's sort of this balance of if you want to have impact in the world, if you want to create something, you want to help people, you want to build something, you need people around you to be bouncing off ideas with, to inspire you, to inspire them to get new ideas. That's hard in place like this.

Debra (07:28):

And that's been the biggest argument I've heard for why Silicon Valley works. It's not tech big “T”, it's just that they're really interesting people and you meet them in coffee houses or you overhear conversations or whatever that spark happens, right?

David (07:45):

That's right. That's real. And as much as I would like to poo p that just being in Manhattan and just walking around, just riding a subway, you can't help but not have that impact you, that things are different. I mean, so what's going on in the Middle East right now? I live in what is live in Utah, which is essentially a democratic socialist theocracy. It's run by the Mormon church and they're for the most part benevolent and it's fine. But that whole sort of thing that's being played out in the Middle East is also being played out in not combat way, but in places like New York or Los Angeles, other big cities, that stuff is going to be like front and center. It does not exist here. Zero. There's no, the only way I even know about it is I read about it or I talk to my friends in cities and they're like, wow, this is getting really weird here. I don't feel good here. But you don't get that here. So that's sort of the upside of being here. But there's also the flip of that, right? So I think you mentioned this idea of living in an rv.

(09:14):

The people I know who've done that, it's like, okay, after about month three they're like, can we sell this thing? What can we get for it?

Debra (09:27):

Exactly. But I find that with everybody. I had a friend who needed to go to Hawaii, loved it, whole life, saving up for it, and then actually moved to Maui. And after about a year went, I can't do this anymore. It's whatever. It's too far away, it's whatever. So I wonder at some point, is it just our brains just, we always want the thing we can't have? How do we figure out comfort and freedom and having things but not being tied down to things? Help me out, David, what do we do?

David (10:02):

Well, I don't think you figure it out. I think that your friend who went to Maui, who leaves Maui, will probably be grateful for the rest of their lives. They spent a year in Maui, they did this thing and it was like an awesome thing. But then it's done, right? It's like you have an itch, you scratch it. It doesn't itch anymore. Okay, great. I spent a year living in Paris. Would I do that again? No. Am I grateful that I did it? Yeah. Do I want to live full-time in another country again? No way. It's too hard. I have too many other things that I would rather do than that. And I think that one of the revelations I had this year, Debra, is that home is where your stuff is. Home is not where your family is. Home is not like all that stuff. No, no. It's where your stuff is. And stuff is important. And I think that we're in a time where people are experiences, not things count. Things are expressions of ourselves. Things give us comfort. People give us comfort. But it's also really nice to, I have my books, my art and everything. They've been packed up for four years because we've got this nutty vacation rental lifestyle that we live.

Debra (11:16):

Yeah, that's why I'm surprised that I'm hearing you say that because you've been living without, those things have been in storage.

David (11:22):

It sucks. What can I say? It's not the way I would choose to be, it's just for financial reasons. We rent this place in the winter because we live steps from a ski lift. So that just makes sense. But I have to read a lot, and this is a lot of people send me, I'm in a position where people send me stuff all the time to tests and see if it works. And it's nice to have a place for that. It's nice to look at a wall and have all these books and be like, oh yeah, that book, oh, I remember what that guy said. Oh yeah, that was really interesting. If I don't have that physical thing, I've been trying to use a Kindle and Kindle's really nice because you can, there's a lot of information in it and I think it has a place. But I think the physical things, there's value to this. And I think that I don't want the purpose of my life to be the custodian of my things either. I don't want. But on the other hand, seeing these things, having them around, there's value in that. It's not nothing.

Debra (12:44):

This is fascinating. I did not know our conversation was going to go this way. I thought you were going to totally Marie Kondo on me here. I thought that we were just going to be living light with our little backpack and lighting out.

David (12:55):

I mean, that works for some people. I think that editing is a good idea. Absolutely. I have in my closet now, I've got maybe four pairs of jeans and I've got maybe a dozen and three or four workout outfits and probably a lot more sneakers than I need. That's down. It's about, I dunno, a quarter of what I used to have. I don't really need the other things. What I find is certain things become a distraction. I find having too many clothes is a distraction for me that I look in there and it's like, now it's like, well, what do I need to wear today? Oh, I've got to hunt through these five things to find this other thing. So that becomes a time to bring on misconduct, get rid of the crap that's a distraction and irritation and annoyance that's in your way, that's sort of cluttering things up. Get rid of that stuff. But the other stuff, I like to wear nice things. I like to have to have my art. I like to have my books.

(14:14):

I don't want to get rid of all these things. They bring value to my life. But here I'm going to tell you another story. You can give me some advice on this because I'm trying to figure this out. 15 years ago, I opened, rented a storage container in Oxnard, California. Why Oxnard? Because I was living in Los Angeles and Oxnard is cooler because it's closer to the ocean. So you don't need a climate controlled thing. It doesn't get super hot there. And it was cheaper and we were sort of moving some stuff and I was transitioning out of being a photographer. So I have in there basically 35 years worth of negatives and prints and stuff that I originally was paying $80 a month for and is now 15 years later, $180 a month. And I was just there last weekend. It's one of the reasons I was in Los Angeles to sort of see what's in there, what am I going to do with it? And I thought, should I, I don't feel like I could throw it out.

Debra (15:12):

No, no, you can't do that.

David (15:14):

But I don't know what to do with it. So I just was just sort of paralyzed and I was like, well, okay, nice to know it's here. I'm going to leave now as far as I got, I couldn't figure out what the next course of action. I have nothing useful to do with any of it. But on the other hand, I just couldn't bring myself to just call it the dumpster. That just also didn't seem right. So I did nothing.

Debra (15:44):

You did. And how did you feel when you left? Was it okay to do nothing?

David (15:49):

Well, I felt a certain sort of satisfaction knowing what was in there and understanding if I want to move it out, okay, this is the volume of vehicle, I need to do this. But then I thought if I move it out, where does it go? I know place to put it, so I guess I'll just leave it here. I can't think of anything else to do with it. So I know that's a case of stuff owning me, but I have to just sort of make peace with that unless I'm willing to just get rid of it.

Debra (16:23):

Just sort of hurts my heart though. Could you give it though, to a university or someone or the Getty or something? Photography.

David (16:32):

I'm not that famous.

Debra (16:36):

But you bring up a good point of what we own and what owns us. And I think mean that feels right, what you described. I have similar, I have notes for a lot of stories. When I used to write for the LA Times, I kept my notes because even though they're just handwritten on yellow legal pads, those are the voices of some people who are no longer even on the earth and it feels wrong to throw away their words. And I know that that sounds, I don't know how, it doesn't seem logical, but I can't throw it away. And so they sit in legal boxes in my garage and they always will, sorry, kids, you're going to have to go through it.

David (17:18):

Right? That's sort of the next thing. So it's like, okay, at some point I'm probably, chances are I'm going to die. Survey says we die at some point. And so then there's this thing there. Is anyone going to be interested in what's in there? Maybe for a second. But then it's like they're going to be like, well, what are we going to do with this stuff? We have to, it's not in perpetuity. This mausoleum of David's photos and negatives lives on that doesn't make any sense.

Debra (17:53):

But as long as you're not doing DRE figurines or something, I think you could have someone, right?

David (18:01):

It's very well organized too. It's not like some crazy hoarder thing. And there's just boxes with labels and they're very nicely stacked. And if I wanted to find something in there and bring in a box cutter, I could find it. But

Debra (18:15):

Are you surprised that you're feeling this way now? If you could have interviewed four year back self, would you have known how you sort of netted out on where you're living and things?

David (18:30):

No, I wouldn't have the living thing. I thought when we came out here, I thought, oh my God, this is amazing. I can live out here and I can do my work. And there's Zoom and there's what we're doing right now. This is fantastic. But that's where I was then. And now that I've done this and I don't see myself ever never wanting to engage with nature the way that I do, but it's not, I've come to the realization that you need these other people around and these other people are not here. They're in other places. And so I need to spend more time in these other places so that I can be around these other people.

Debra (19:27):

And you bring up a good point that makes this even more interesting and complex is that we have to, when we're making decisions, at least when I'm making decisions about this, I'm thinking here I am now 65, healthy, got a lot of interesting stuff going on, but there's going to be a point where I might be differently abled. There might be other stuff going on. And so do I plan for that future as well? Or do I just bail on where I live and move somewhere else? It feels like a three-dimensional chess board.

David (20:03):

It's dynamic. So I think that I read this interesting article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of years ago about another one of my favorite delusions. The Forever Home.

Debra (20:15):

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about that.

David (20:18):

What people do is they'll come to a place like this and they get a piece of land and they're like, okay, we're going to build our forever home. And this becomes an all-encompassing activity for 2, 3, 4 years. And they build their thing and they're in it for a year. They sell it that we often think that we can project a place where we want to be. And I think some people can do that. I think some people do do that. I think some people live in the same house town their entire lives. But for a lot of us that doesn't work. And we come at it from the experience that we have from where we're at right now and trying to project that into the future. And we do the best we can. But where we are five or six years down the road or 10 years down the road, we're in a very different place and the world is in a different place. And so thankfully we have brains. And the nice thing about a brain is we can change our minds and we say, oh, well that was good. I did that. Okay, so now I need to do something else.

(21:38):

I think we as humans, I was listening to a guy who joined me on a talk last week talking about, it's like a financial thing. So how people are really bad at predicting their own lifespan and people who are not very healthy predict a shorter lifespan and they actually live much longer than they think they will be. And people who are very healthy over index on that. So they think they're going to live much longer than they actually do because we make these decisions based on where we're at now, and we're thinking like, okay, here I am and my trajectory sort of looks like this. But we very often get it wrong. And I think that's okay. I don't think we just adjust. And I think that's fine.

Debra (22:28):

Well, we need to talk about thinking about that. I took Ageist super age quiz and I project that I'm going to live to 95 to 105. David, am I overshooting?

David (22:43):

I have no idea. I'm not the oracle of mortality. I wish I was. I'd be incredibly rich, but I'm not. But thank you for taking the quiz. So I'm just going to plug the quiz. Go to ageist.com/quiz. It's the super age quiz, and you'll find out what kind of super age you are. And the point of the quiz is that what we found at ais where we were sort of delivering everybody the same kind of information, and I too am an owl and we, owls are very sort of science data. We love gadgets and we're very deep into that sort of stuff. We tend to be fairly, I guess more disciplined in how we go about things. Nothing, no good points and bad points to that. And the reason we make the quiz is because we realize everyone is different. And so people have different ambitions and different interests, and I spend time science reports. Most people, their eyes would glaze over and they're like, why are you doing that? So what we're doing is by doing this quiz and sort of doing these different animal types, we're able to then send people information that matches up with their interest in their ambitions.

Debra (24:04):

That's brilliant. Now how many animals can you be?

David (24:08):

Well, we try to keep it really simple because I don't, I think the quiz, I think we timed it out. It's a little under three minutes. It's like 10 questions. So we just did it into three animals. So dolphins, foxes, and owls. And we can maybe further in the future we'll add more animals or sub animals or stuff like that, or combinations of animals. But just at the moment, we just wanted to keep it really simple for people and just say like, Hey, if you are this kind of person, we're going to deliver information to you that fits your view of the world about what you're interested in. And so I think it's just sort of a better way to go.

Debra (24:51):

It's brilliant. And we'll make sure that we have all the information in our episode notes and any early learnings. David, from what you've seen so far on the data, because an owl, I have to know,

David (25:03):

Of course we thought most people would be dolphins, but all the people who've taken the initial quiz, the majority of people are foxes. And then I think the loo is probably the smallest group. So the Fox is the biggest group. The Dolphin is the next biggest group, and the owl is the smallest group. I think it's a very specific subgroup of people who've taken the quiz so far. So it's only been like a few thousand people I think out in the general population. My guess is there'll be more dolphins, but who knows? Wherever you are, we're happy to have you

Debra (25:46):

Just pods of ageist dolphins. It's going to be awesome. So we all want to know what you guys are. So please make sure that you check out ageist, make sure you take the quiz and interested to see what other findings you all have. And also make sure that you sign up for David's absolutely terrific weekly newsletter and all the other goodness that comes with Ageist.

David (26:11):

Thank you. Yeah, that'd be great.

Debra (26:13):

Thank you so much for talking with me today, David.

David (26:16):

Absolutely. It's my pleasure, Debra. You're an inspiration and I'm really glad we know each other and

Debra (26:22):

You too. We'll see you in Park City.

David (26:24):

Okay, take care.

Debra (26:26):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

 

Change surrounds us, says Michael Clinton, author of ROAR into the second half of life (before its too late). And he should know. As one of the longest-serving top executives in the magazine publishing world leading Hearst Magazines, he's witnessed the seismic shifts in that industry. We talk about how he moved from exec to entrepreneur, how to answer the question "what is your favorite future?" and what we can do now to realize our new adventurous life.

Sign up for Michael's newsletter: ROAR Forward 

 

Transcription:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. I'm really excited about our guest today. He is one of the longest serving top execs in the magazine publishing world, and I promise you that you have read and loved so many of the magazines that he's been responsible for. I mean, the list is long. Here are a few, the Oprah magazine, GQ Cosmopolitan, Esquire, Men's Health, Runner's World, and the list goes on and on. And now our guest, Michael Clinton, has lit out onto new territories. He's here with us today to talk about the trailblazing work he's doing, thinking about humans over 50. And he has a great new book. Great new book. Here it is. It's called Roar Into the Second Half of Your Life Before It's Too Late.

Michael, welcome.

Michael Clinton (00:55):

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to the conversation.

Debra (00:59):

So help us understand what you saw in the cultural conversation that propelled you into doing the research that you're doing, launching your new businesses, writing a book. Tell us where you came from on this.

Michael (01:15):

Well, no thank you. It's an observation that we're in the middle of what is a pretty meaningful social movement in the country. The number of people in the United States that are 50 or older is now 35% of the population. The first millennials turn 50 in seven years, which is quite astounding. If you're 50 and healthy, you have a really good chance of living to be 90 or older. And so the whole construct that we've been given, the cultural construct that was handed to us was that you're supposed to be winding down as you start moving into your fifties and sixties. And that script was written a hundred years ago when life expectancy was 62. So you basically did work till 62 and then you sort of retired for a couple of years, then you were gone. Well, today it is a radically different environment because if you are 60, pick a number and you live another 30 years, that's a lot of living that can have meaning and purpose and so forth. So how do you rethink what this is all going to mean for you individually? And it has huge implications globally because many countries are like Japan and Korea and UK and Germany, the US have very big, fast growing population is over 50. That was the aha.

Debra (02:42):

And you personally, where did you come from in all of this? Did you have a personal aha as you were moving through your career?

Michael (02:50):

Yeah, no, for sure. As you mentioned, I had a spectacular publishing career with a lot of amazing people, brands launching many magazines, buying companies, being the president and publishing director of Hearst Magazines, being the chairman of the magazine, publishers of America. I was really full. I had a really full exciting career and I was in my early sixties and I was kind of, okay, I'm kind of ready to go do my next thing and you can close out one career and move into another career or other activities. And that's what was my thought. But when I started looking around and reading things, watching things and talking to people, it was all of the old fashioned script, which was about the wind down, like quote, retire, which we hate that word. We call it refire in the book, move to a sunny state. I live in New York City, I'm very happy in New York City play golf. I don't play golf. So I was like, I'm really, I don't fit this archetype. And so I said, I need to go find my people. So I found a lot of people who thought like me and think like me. And in the book, as you know, I ended up interviewing 40 individuals who we call the imagineers, the people who are really at the forefront of this whole movement. So I had a personal aha in addition to an observational one.

Debra (04:21):

I love that. And I love the people. You did so much research and I want to make sure we will make sure that in our notes, that people have lots of ways that they can find you and find your book because it is amazing. He covers a lot of ground on this, but one of the things I want to double click on is the R word retirement. I love that you hate that word. I super hate it too. But no one else has been able to get to a good word. You did refire instead of retire. Could you talk about that?

Michael (04:49):

Yeah, I mean, retirement is a false construct. Yeah, it was created a hundred years ago by the government. So social security was established in the 1930s, and it was to move older people out because younger people were moving up. And this notion of social security was, at the time there were about seven, 8 million people who were 65 or over. So the government was like, yeah, we can afford this. Well, today it's over 58 million people and the crisis around the social security issue. But what happened is prior to that, for all of millennia, you basically worked until you died. You may have worked in different things, but you were engaged, you were involved, you were making a contribution, you were earning an income, all of that. And so this notion of retirement is what sends people into depression and loneliness and feeling worthless and not having connections in community. And so we like to say rewire into something else because you don't have to do your same first career, go do an entirely second new kind of career that doesn't have to have the same motivations or the same kinds of things you had in your first career. Do something that you really love. It may not include a lot of money, or it may include more volunteer time, or it may include social impact, but rewire into something else that is giving you meaning and fulfillment. And so that's why we banish that word retire.

Debra (06:29):

I love that. And we can all have plans, and you talk a lot about planning, but one of the things that has surprised me is even with all the plans, you can't imagine what life is going to be like until you're sort of living it day to day. And what I realized first after I left a big corporate job is that I was subconsciously sort of building a smaller box, but the same construct. I was just going to do the same thing I did in corporate, but just kind of in a different way. And I've come to realize that that may not be my future and that I have to actually totally reimagine what I'm doing, which is daunting. And again, why I love your book so much because you give some really concrete details of how you kind of start parting out that conversation. Was it a surprise to you when you started launching this?

Michael (07:18):

One of the things that I learned along the way from all these amazing people who I met is you can't replicate many people, as you said, try to replicate what they had in a different form. And what we all have to know is that we have a run in a specific industry or business or career, and sometimes that run ends and then you have to completely reimagine and reinvent. But think about the skills that you've acquired during that long run and how do you repurpose those skills. So as you know in the book, we have a lot of tools and a lot of great fun quizzes and ways for you to get to the bottom of your own re-imagination process. And I think that for me it was completely, I was not interested in being engaged one way or the other in the magazine industry anymore.

(08:12):

It was a great run. What I did is I went back to school and got a master's degree in my sixties in nonprofit philanthropy. I obviously wrote this book. I did a lot of, I'm a marathon runner, I continued to, I ran my seventh marathon on seven continents when I turned 60. So I was like, let's go. And there's a whole chapter about life layering, which is the way you build it from a practical standpoint. So I think enjoy, and by the way, this is not just career, it's also when your kids grow up and are gone, you have to reinvent who you are then because you're no longer as involved as a parent as you was when you were raising the kids, or if your partner leaves you and or you decide to break up with a partner, you're in a different personal stage and you have to reinvent who you are as a single person, whether you're divorced, widowed, all the above. So there's a lot of different ways to reimagine. And those are just a few examples.

Debra (09:25):

And what you're talking about and what your book covers is for any age. I mean, what you're describing is things that happen to us as humans, not just at a certain point in our life. So what you go through, what you tick through in your book, I think has application no matter where you are, beginning, middle, or end. Talk more about layering how you do that.

Michael (09:47):

Yeah. Well, we always start with what I call the three Ps. And the three Ps are your partner. If you're partnered, you're parenting. If you're a parent and your professional life, you're working, you may not have all three Ps, but you generally have one or two of the three Ps. But the three Ps completely define us. Probably when you step back and think about those three Ps, it's probably 90% or more of your life because you're busy working, you're busy raising with your kids, you're busy with your partner, et cetera. And what we like to say is that a cautionary tale, kids grow up and move away. Jobs come and go, layoffs, downsizing, whatever. Hopefully your partner sticks around. But who are you without those three Ps? What is the fourth key in your life? Meaning what are the personas that will define you? And if you talk to a lot of people who are midlife in particular, they have a hard time answering that.

(11:00):

So the life layering process is a way to start building layered personas that define you, reflect you, are you as you move into the second half of life in different ways. I'll give you one example. I was 39 years old. I was the publisher of GQ. I had a great family life, love life, professional life, but I felt I was the most boring human being on the planet because all I was doing was working. I was totally one of these people who self-defined by my job and it was a great job. But as I turned 40, I decided I always had an adventure gene in me. So I decided that I would do three things. I would go climb Mount Kilimanjaro, a group of friends in Africa. I would take a race car driving class, and I would take a flying lesson. So I was really tapping into my adventure gene and I became a pilot and ultimately climbed at many, many mountains.

(12:02):

And I decided that my forties were going to be my adventure years. So I created this idea of what I called the layer of my persona, my adventure persona. And we could do a whole hour on me telling you about all my adventures of climbing mountains all over the world and going to Madagascar and Tasmania and flying all over the world and running marathons and hiking and doing all these kinds of things. So I've got this whole layer of adventure, adventure that is part of my persona today and that have got other multiple layers, but the life layering teaches you. And by the way, as you said earlier, you can start this at any time, you can create a layer at 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and I just met a woman who's 82 and she said, I've just started painting and I'm going to paint for the rest of my life. And I'm like, that's your creative layer. And so how do we build out these other layers that are not part of our three Ps that really give us richness and satisfaction in our lives? And so we do some fun things to help you get to identifying what your layer might be because a lot of people say, well, I don't know what my layer should be, but we give some fun tools how you can claim that. So that's kind of life layering in a short definition.

Debra (13:19):

What's interesting as I'm hearing you say that, is that it's also kind of disruptive. If you've lived your life sort of defined by the three P's, and then you go to the people you love and you say, I'm going to go climb Kilimanjaro, who's with me? That feels like a little bit of a transgressive kind of conversation to have. Tell me, are there bumps to that that you have to overcome?

Michael (13:41):

Well, let's put it probably in a less adventurous way. You have to go to your Aunt Mary's house every year for Thanksgiving, and you have to travel to pick a city to go and spend four days in that city with Aunt Mary and you love Aunt Mary, but you really don't want to do that anymore. And you have to tell Aunt Mary that you're not going to come for Thanksgiving this year because you've decided that instead, you're going to go take a trip and do a four day trip, pick a place. When you lob those kinds of announcements to your family, to your friends and so forth, you have to be bold enough and courageous enough to readjust, reimagine how you ultimately want to spend your time. If going to Aunt Mary's for four days is no longer satisfying you and you love your Aunt Mary, go visit Aunt Mary another time.

(14:40):

But reorient yourself in terms of fulfilling the kinds of things that you want to do to fill your time. And we talk a lot about time audit because we all waste a lot of time, all of us do and superfluous things. And I always say to people, just take two weeks and do a time audit about how you're spending your time and is it bringing you value? Are you spending time and how there are things we have to do, we have responsibilities, but there are a lot of things that are wasted time that we could reimagine that time or regroup in ways that we can use the time in a more meaningful way for us. And for those of us who are over 50, we realize as we live longer, that time is a really precious commodity, and we realize that time is something that should really be used in a really emphatic way. And so take that responsibility. ROAR is an acronym, and the last R stands for Reassess Your Relationships. And it's right in this area that we're talking about right in this area talking

Debra (15:55):

About, okay, let's go through ROAR so everyone knows what it stands for.

Michael (16:01):

Yeah, thank you. Well, the first R is the notion of the re-imagination process and how do you do it? How do you engage in it? How do you make it a practice, a daily practice? How do you focus on it, make a commitment to it? So that's sort of the first R the O is owning your numbers. Everything that is built for your future has to start with good fundamental health numbers. I'm always shocked at how many people, Deborah are 50 years old, and you say, what's your blood pressure? What's your heart rate? And they have no idea. Have you had a colonoscopy? No. How many people do we know? I mean, all the things we have in medicine today that are preventative, that are there to help us have what we call the health span of new longevity, they're all there for us. The tools are absolutely incredible.

(16:54):

So how do you take the responsibility to own your numbers, your health numbers first, then you've got to own your financial numbers. Do you have the financial foundation? How are you going to fund a life if you live to be 80 or 90 or older? How are you going to fund that life? Have you really thought that through and map that out. So own your numbers, own your age. I think that 60 is not the new 40, 60 is the new 60. And embrace it, right? Embrace it. And I look across the culture now and we see Jennifer Lopez in her fifties. Lenny Kravitz is 60, Jill Biden is 72. Martha Stewart was on Sports Illustrated in 82. The pro aging phenomena of men and women claiming their age and saying, this is what it looks like and this is who you can be too, is really a positive force in our culture. And there was just a book written by Dr. Becca Levy, who I've become a real fan of. She's at Yale called Breaking the Age Code that a positive attitude about your age and aging can bring you seven and a half more years of life.

(18:15):

There is a mental issue, mental health issue around thinking positively about living longer. And so owning your age, and by the way, and then the other thing you have to own is that we are all going to leave planet Earth someday, and we do have to own that final number. And what's the legacy? If you're 50 or 60, what haven't you done that is meaningful to you? What do you want to do for the next 20, 30 years? What's important to you? And so owning that end date is important to you. So that's owning your numbers. A is the action plan, which is all about life layering of course. And then R is reassessing your relationships. And you touched on it. It's the people around you that have to lift you and support you. If you decide you want to go through a radical professional change in your fifties, or you have to leave a marriage that doesn't work any longer, or you've decided that you're going to become sober and all your friends are out partying, drinking every night, how do you regroup and understand those are supporting where you want to go, and how do you edit out those who aren't supportive of you and bring new people your tribe into your posse?

(19:39):

And I think that's hard at midlife because we all have that college roommate that we met 25 years ago, but it's kind of turned into a toxic relationship now, and you're kind of hanging on for the sake of hanging on as opposed to time to move on. It's tough, but it's once again, courage

Debra (20:00):

And what you bring up also, I had a guest on a couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine who went into extreme friendship making. And so she decided, I can't just lose friends, but I got to work really hard and actively to find new folks. And so I think what you're saying there is that that reassessment isn't just who doesn't serve, but also seeking out those new interesting relationships also. Right?

Michael (20:23):

Absolutely. At all ages, people of all ages of friendships. I mean, I have friends from twenties to nineties and always find the magic of life and you being a human is, you meet people along the way in your journey and you end up saying, how blessed am I that I got to meet you when I was 50 or 60 and you're completely on my wavelength. And yeah, you've got to be open to that and not only in friendships, but you've got to be open to romance and intimacy and the importance of that as well,

Debra (21:02):

Which I want to bring up. You have a press release out on your NRG survey and you say 77% of 50 to seven year olds, your re imagineers are sexually active. Michael, let's talk about sex.

Michael (21:19):

Well, this is the big taboo because there's a lot of perception that people aren't having sex in the second half of their life. The New York Times did a really great cover story of their magazine about a year ago. It was called Sex Over 70. And I thought, what a great story to bring sort of sex out of the closet because you may not be having the same kind of sex you had when you were 25, but people want intimacy. And many people, sex has lots of different interpretations. It's the individuals that are involved. It hopefully starts with a romance and intimacy. But I think that our survey found that people, in this case there were 50 to 70, had very active sex lives. And I think if you talk to people in their seventies and eighties, you would find the same thing.

Debra (22:12):

I would argue better, because you know what your partner wants, you know what you want. And I think a lot. I just think that there's a lot going on. Yeah, okay. I'm quoting you here. 77% of 50 to 70 year olds are sexually active with more than 40% having sex weekly.

Michael (22:32):

Yeah, that was a big number that surprised me. I was like, okay. But what you probably know is a lot of these sex surveys that a lot, this was only one question in a much bigger survey, but oftentimes you have to say, okay, do you think you are or you'd like to be? Or what is really, is it really because you don't want to feel like you're not as active? So I take a little bit of it with the grain of salt, but that's okay. I think the intent is really there, the interest is really there, and I think that's, we are human beings who need that kind of, once again, intimacy and physical contact. I don't think that ever goes away. I was listening to a podcast, he was 107 and she was 105, and they were dating nice. They were a new couple, and she was talking about the intimacy that they were having. She didn't go into great detail, but sleeping in the same bed and body contact and however they were interpreting it, she did have a great kicker at the end, she said. And basically after a really great night's sleep of cuddling and all that, I wake up the next morning, and as long as he's still breathing, I know that we'll have another day together.

(24:02):

I was like, that's great.

Debra (24:03):

God Bless.

Michael (24:05):

That spirit, that should never die.

Debra (24:07):

Oh, I love that. In the research, what else surprised you? What else were ah-has?

Michael (24:14):

I think the one thing, there were several things. There was a point of view that the institutions that serve us like government and entertainment and media and advertising, are way behind the sensibility of this new kind of 50 plus consumer and 50 plus human being. Because look around you, everybody, and look at people who are over 50, who are fit and dynamic and tech savvy and engaged and traveling and globally and all those things. And you go, wait a minute. That's what 50, 60, 70 plus looks like today. And everything that you're showing me and serving me is an antiquated representation. I think everyone resoundingly said that brands and advertising and entertainment is way behind where my head is at as a human being. And so I think the people, it sort of reminds me 50 years ago when the women's movement first started when women were sort of saying the same thing, wait a minute, how are you representing me in advertising? And how are you representing me as a character in a movie? You're only representing me as a mother and I'm much more multi-dimensional. Why aren't you showing me badass women who are warriors? And now today we have that. When you look at the kinds of characters that Helen Maren plays…

Debra (26:01):

Love her.

Michael (26:02):

Gal Gadot plays a superhero. But 50 years ago, young women or women didn't see characters like that. It's the same example today, we need to up our game in representation, and there are some sprouts that are happening across our cultural landscape that are addressing that, but we have a long way to go. So that was a really big topic that we saw in the study.

Debra (26:31):

What sprouts are you seeing? Because we do have, if you have folks who have not yet experienced being 50, 60, 70, 80, I think it's hard to write films that accurately describe it. And if you have the writer's room filled with 20 year olds, it's not always happening. You've got Amy Bear doing Landline Productions, you've got the Geena Davis Institute who's advocating for more accurate representation. But I mean, how do we get there?

Michael (27:01):

Yeah. Well, I'm very good friends with Amy. As you mentioned, Amy's and I are going to be together next week, and as you know, she has multiple movies in romantic comedies for people over 50 with those actors and actresses over 50. I think part of this discussion, and I've discussed this with her as well as in creative round tables, is you have to have people who are in the 50 plus demographic who represent the authenticity. And once upon a time, and this because we earlier were talking about our respective backgrounds, once upon a time there were a bunch of white men sitting around a table deciding what women and people of color and so forth and the table, the creative table got more diversified over time, more women, more people of color, more authentic perspectives. But what hasn't happened is people over 50 are not around that creative table to challenge the stereotypes that are integrated into characters or advertising images to call it out and to say that's inauthentic.

(28:15):

That is a bad representation. That is a stereotypical representation. So the first thing we need to do is to make sure there's a seat at the table all the way through the process so that bad representation can be called out. And I think Amy's a good example of with landline pictures. Someone is doing that. I think L'Oreal is a great brand that is doing it. L'Oreal has been really on the forefront of this. There's a great eyewear company called Caddis. They have a really great product and a great positioning. I was at a conference recently and I showed a great Clos du Bois television ad that was with all people 50 plus, and it was really upbeat and dynamic and great characters. So you're finding a Hoka Silver sneakers. You're finding brands that are emerging that are sort of breaking through the outdated paradigm. But we need more and more. And I would say until I wrote a piece about this for Esquire, I'm writing a lot on this topic for Esquire and Men's Health and Oprah Daily, people go on to roar forward.com and go to our thought leadership tab. You can see a lot of the stories, but one of the stories was around how Hollywood needs to, that they're missing a huge audience by not focusing on entertainment and movies and television shows that the show great representation. One example that I call out is Queen Latifah on her show.

(30:06):

She herself is in her fifties, the character is in her fifties, and the character is an amazing woman who you're just in awe of. We need more of that, we need more of that.

Debra (30:17):

And what would be great is that we get to a point where we aren't even calling out folks who are different ages going and look what a 70 year old can do. The Golden Bachelor all good, but the fact that we are making such a big deal that someone could look good when he's in his seventies and women could look good in their age. It's a step in the right direction, but we got to grow from this.

Michael (30:41):

Yeah, you're right. It's funny you bring that up because at a conference recently, I was asked that question and I said, here's what the end state is. The end state is age agnostic in representation, and you don't even think about it. You just see it. And so there's not the, oh, she looks great for 70. You just sort of see a 70 year old and it's just integrated in a very natural form, and you just assume that that's what 70 can be. You don't even put to your point of name, number against it, but age inclusivity, age agnostic in the right representation of that will get us there.

Debra (31:27):

Do you remember the movie Reds with Helen Mirren? I love that movie because Helen is a complete badass, right? And they don't go, she's a grownup. Seriously grownup woman being a badass. She just is, and she looks spectacular, but she also has really good army boots. She's going to have to run away from the bad guys. And she has intimacy with his other cohort, and I loved everything about it because she's strong, wonderful. And we didn't go, oh, look at us being inclusive with Helen Mirren. It was just there, right?

Michael (32:02):

It's organic. No, it's a great example. It's a great example. I think you will see just by the sheer size of this population bulge that's happening. And by the way, this is not a fad. This is a long trend because you probably know that while life expectancies are longer than they've ever been, there is pretty much a flat to negative birth rate in the developed countries that depending on the country immigration guidelines in countries like Japan, which is the oldest country in the world, really doesn't have an immigration sliver, so to speak, of people coming into Japan to work to fill out the gaps. So Japan, I always say to people, go to Japan and Singapore. That's the future. That's what the world's going to look like. China also. And so the people are going to force this issue in terms of all the things we're talking about.

(33:04):

The other thing that I will point out is that if you looked at America today and you looked at the 50 plus consumer that spends $8.3 trillion in GDP, it would be the third largest country in the world. Now just stop and think about that. The spending power and also 70% of the assets in this country, illiquid assets of home ownership and stocks and bonds, et cetera, are owned by people over 50. Now, not everyone, of course has, we still have a lot of inequality in our country, but the reality is that this generation writ large, has huge spending power, has huge asset base, is dynamic and different than any generation before them. And they're ready to go and they're saying, let's go. And once again, the marketers around them are kind of missing the boat because they're not tapping into them.

Debra (34:15):

I mean, that's the surprise to me. I mean, there's real money. So you've mentioned some brands that are really good. How as consumers of media and products, what can we do to be voting towards better representation?

Michael (34:33):

Well, it's funny you asked. We picked up in the research, and I've talked to some of my advertising executive friends and said, this is a new moment where people are saying, I'm going to step away from a brand if a brand does, if I can't see myself in that brand, and I'll use a great example, the footwear company, Hoka.

(34:59):

And Hoka, not to pick on Nike, but Nike was born for the boomers. That was the Boomer brand because when Nike was born, all the boomers were young and in their twenties and so forth. And Nike has pretty much stuck to their knitting about promoting to younger consumers. And a lot of people over 50 have left Nike to go to Hoka because they think that the brand speaks to them in a lot of different ways in terms of styling, in terms of performance, in terms of imaging. And so I think when people say to me that people over 50 are brand loyal, I say, that's not true. Who's buying Tesla? People who are European import automotive consumers in the past who's buying Apple Watch, people who used to buy traditional luxury watches are trading out into Apple Watch because of biometrics, et cetera.

(36:02):

Who's buying luxury travel Four Seasons. And Ritz Carlton once owned that space. Now there are new players coming in like Six Senses and one and only are coming in above them and capturing that luxury traveler of other different kinds of services. So the 50 plus consumer is no longer brand loyal. That is a real urban myth that needs to explode because they are buying products and brands that are new, that are different, that are serving their interests. I'll go back to Tesla. I mean the whole electric vehicle phenomena, and Tesla is leading in that space, obviously. And we all know a lot of people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, they're buying Teslas.

Debra (36:56):

Well, this is why folks need your research rather than the traditional, I think marketing demographic research, because I think brands unconsciously maybe try to find the data that supports the status quo and that describes that sort of old way of marketing and advertising versus what you are finding and what you're talking about, which is a huge opportunity, 8.3 trillion, but you have to look new at it. Yeah,

Michael (37:24):

I call it the new growth market. Ironically, it's a new growth market that's been reframed by this generational cohort that's reframing it. The baby boomers love them or hate them. The boomers were always the agitators. The boomers agitated about ending the war. They agitated about sex and drugs and rock and roll. They agitated about workplace, and now these boomers are agitating about redefinition of aging, and this is their big last agitation because they're like saying, wait a minute, just because I'm 70 doesn't mean, and so they're agitating. And what's great about it is not only will they agitate for themselves, they, we are all very self-centered. So we'll agitate for ourselves, but we will create role models for the next generation to be able to say, ah, this is what my parents did, or my aunt and uncle or my neighbors. They were doing amazing things at 60 and or 70 and or later.

(38:36):

So I think it has a long tail into next generations. It's the same way that a woman today at 25 can come out of school or at 22 or 23 and can look at the whole opportunity landscape and say, oh, I can be the CEO of a company. I can be on Supreme Court. I can run for president. I can do this. I can do that. Very, very different than 50 years ago when there weren't a lot of role models. We're building the role models of the future of the new longevity lifestyle. That's really what's happened.

Debra (39:12):

I love that. And building on what you just said there, the other thing I'm finding from this podcast and other work thinking about this space is that people in their twenties and thirties now are trying to figure stuff out. And when they see that there are folks in their fifties, sixties, seventies who are going, you know what? It's really fun. I love my body. I'm having great adventures. It gives great comfort even for folks in their twenties and thirties that they're like, oh my God, this gets better. And there are other ways that you can approach the world. So again, from a marketing standpoint, you're not going to be shutting out younger consumers by focusing on this older demographic. In fact, I would argue that it's more inclusive.

Michael (39:59):

Yes, absolutely. Of course, brands need to cultivate younger consumers. Absolutely. But it's a broader this from your own professional experience. Media advertisers stop buying media at 54, so they buy 25 to 54, and so everything else is kind of off the cliff. But that once again, that playbook was written at a time when there was not a lot of elasticity in that 54 plus consumer in terms of brand loyalty. And one of the things we found in our research is that this consumer's buying across every single category In the past, it was like, well, they're going to buy healthcare and they're going to buy financial, and that's all. Well, now they're buying fashion and travel and beauty and home and on and on and on. So yeah, it's an inclusivity thing. I'm on the board at the Stanford University Center on longevity and some of the science, there's a wonderful piece people can pull up called The New Map of Life.

(41:11):

The a hundred year life is here. The science shows that today's five-year old has a 50% chance to live to be a hundred. The life cycles are going to change dramatically. I was with a young 22 year old yesterday who I've been mentoring saying, you have a long runway. You don't to boil the ocean in the past, in your twenties. I've got to find my career. I've got to find my path. I've got to find my mate. I've got to have my child. I've got to the pressures. And now you can have a child later, you can marry later, you can partner later, you can change a career. You're going to have a 60 year career if you're going to look to be a hundred. So it's not going to be a one-stop shop career. You're going to have a lot, build your skillset, build your knowledge, build your experience, and take that long ride that you're going to have. It's a blessing. And Stanford has a lot of great research on this whole phenomena. So I think to your point about people in their twenties,

Debra (42:23):

Final question. How do we begin? What would be the one thing that you would coach folks to just take one little step to be moving in the ROAR direction?

Michael (42:35):

Good question. First of all, take a baby step. What I found with the 40 people who have all gone through this and got to a re-imagination, they spent a year or two really thinking about it and really doing the work is important. You're not going to solve it in a weekend or two or three or go away to a spa and think about it over a few days. It doesn't work that way. You really have to go introspective and really dig deep into what is important to you and what do you really want, and start by prioritizing it and developing what is number one on the list and start to focus on that first. The first step is always the hardest. I always say to people, as I mentioned, I'm a marathon runner, so I'll use running as an analogy. And they'll say, well, I want to start a fitness and wellness program.

(43:37):

And I'll say, well, what's your exercise regimen? Because exercise is the number one thing, the absolute number one thing for good health span and longevity. Genes only play 20% of your longevity, your own personal longevity. 80% of it is lifestyle, and exercise is number one at all ages. And I always say, what's your exercise regimen? Well, I really don't have one, and I really am interested in running, but I don't know how to start. I say, you know how to start. Go buy a pair of running shoes and take a walk around the high school track in your neighborhood. That's your baby step. And then take two walks around, then three walks around, then do a little jog, then do a little run, then do a little this, then do a little that. And before you know it, you might be running a 10 K, so build on it. But the baby step is 50%. Taking the first step is more than 50% of the equation, but you have to do the work. What do you want to do and accomplish and how do you prioritize? So I mean, those would be my sort of top line thoughts on the subject, Deborah?

Debra (44:47):

Well, thank you. Well, we've covered a lot today. And again, I want to make sure that everyone knows to make sure that they get your book. You can see I've got mine totally marked up already. It's really insightful and really easy at the end with all sorts of checklists, so it's very, very useful. Michael, thank you so much.

Michael (45:05):

Thank you so much. It was great to be with you. Great. Have a conversation.

Debra (45:08):

Thanks for listening to the Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcast, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

 

Friendship as extreme sport? If you're Kim Coutts, yes. After life threw her some curveballs, Coutts decided she needed to get brave about new relationships. And she's leaned into the challenge the way some of us would train for a triathalon or climb Mt. Whitney. In other words, all in and pushing to the limit. Hear her practical advice and what happens when you click yes to every Meetup out there.

 

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Some people climb big mountains and some surf big waves. But my friend Kim Coutts, she makes new friends. She makes friends like a ninja warrior. She makes friends like you would prepare for a triathlon or you would climb Mount Whitney. In other words, she is all in. And she did this as a challenge to herself and her stories are amazing. So she's here with us today to talk about why she took on the challenge, how she started to make new friends, and what we can learn from this sort of extreme sport of friendship making. Kim, welcome.

Kim Coutts (00:48):

Thank you for having me. So fun.

Debra (00:50):

So all of us as we get older, I mean we used to have our kid friends. We would just hang out and play together. And then as young people and parents, we would be friends of college friends or we would be friends of our kids', friends, their parents. And now it's harder. It just feels harder. How do you find new friends? How did you get this way? How did you get started?

Kim (01:18):

I think I got divorced, and I think it's really easy to be complacent when you're living with another person. You never really hit that loneliness spot where you're like, oh my gosh, I have to do something huge to change this. But when I got divorced, I decided I would move out. I ended up all the way up in Portland sort of accidentally, and I was going through something and completely by myself, so I decided I needed to do something about it. And I dove. In my typical fashion, I have a tendency to overshoot things. I either don't do anything at all or I do too much. So I probably did more than I needed to, but I learned a lot and have kind of kept doing it. And I will say I listen to a lot of podcasts like yours, which are amazing. But I was listening to one the other day on goal setting and how we achieve goals and they really recommend that you can only achieve one goal at a time and you really need to focus on one thing and write down all the verbs of the things that are required to do it.

Kim (02:16):

So I definitely go through phases where I focus on other things, but I am back in a friend making mode right now. So it's definitely one of my top goals I'm focused on again at this time.

Debra (02:27):

And listeners are go, yeah. Yeah, we're all about friendships. I like making friends too. But I got to tell you guys, we are not even in the league of Kim. We were talking on the phone last week and this is how I got so excited about sharing this with y'all because she just started going down the meetup list. And keep me honest on this, Kim, but it sounded like you were just bringing up Meetup and just checking all the boxes. I mean all those weird things, all of those, I don't know if that's super sketchy things you were in, right?

Kim (03:00):

I am in Meetup is odd. It's a really amazing tool, but I also view it kind of online dating and it's a numbers game or a sales funnel as a lot of people might look at it. So I figure I have to join probably 20 meetup groups. I'll go to 10 or 11, I'll like five or six, and then I'll maybe make two or three friends from one of those because a lot of it you want it to result in five great new friendships when you show up. But it's not that easy. And when I was thinking about it before coming today, I realized that I actually haven't made a lot of long-term friends from my meetup groups that I've been in. But I do think that it spurs an energy and a focus and an intention that sort of puts that energy out in the world and then makes other things happen. Friendship is kind of that magic that you get to meet somebody and you connect and you like the same things. And I love that energy. And it doesn't always happen because of my meetup groups, but I do think that it puts that energy out there and then that magic happens where I just happen to sit down next to the right person in a bar or meet someone at work or public transit, whatever it is. I think it sort of sets that intention and helps you find them, even if it is in other ways.

Debra (04:18):

I like this because some of my guy friends would say that it was a numbers game with dating, you just kind of ask a lot of women out and then somebody says yes. And a lot of people say no, and it's okay. This kind of feels a little bit like the same thing.

Kim (04:33):

I actually feel like it is the same thing. I mean that magic, that connection with another person really is the same thing. But I think as humans we think that dating is, yeah, for sure you should be out there looking for your person, but how often do you run into somebody that tells you their main goal in life is making new friends? People just don't really prioritize it or they want it, but they don't really plan and go out to do it. And I do think there's still a little bit of a stigma to it that if you say you don't have enough friends, there's something wrong with you and you're a loser or that you're supposed to just collect them in life and they stick around forever. And then my case, that hasn't really happened. I have some great friends that moved away and we're certainly still friends, but I don't get to go and hang out with them. And then particularly when you have big life changes, I think you need to replace some of those friends. And I found out there was a lot of couple friends that were uncomfortable for some reason or another, and I still haven't quite figured that out. But being friends with someone that wasn't in a couple and I just didn't get invited to things for six, seven and my friends just immediately quit inviting me to stuff. So I had to figure out a way to replace that.

Debra (05:43):

It does feel weird though. I mean, I've met folks that I'm like, you're really cool. I would like to go have lunch with you. And I feel incredibly awkward saying, hi, will you be my friend and go out to lunch with me. Did you feel that way or are you just so brave?

Kim (06:00):

I do feel that way, but I a hundred percent make myself do it. I met one of my closest friends right now. She was interviewing for a job at my company. I had her resume. I saw that she lived in my neighborhood, which is kind of odd. I live about 40 minutes away from our office, so it's not that normal to have someone in my neighborhood. The job wasn't right. She didn't want it, it just wasn't a good fit. But she mentioned on our interview call that she was new to the area and didn't know a lot of people. I emailed her after the interview and just said, Hey, I know that this isn't going to work out as a job, but I thought we really connected and do you want to go grab happy hour? And that was hard. You are, it's just asking someone for a date. I think you put yourself out there, but then if someone did that to you and wanted to be your friend, would you ever be bummed about it? It's so flattering.

Debra (06:50):

No, and it's so rare as you're saying that, I can see in my mind the handful of men and women who were brave enough to say, let's go have lunch together. I think you'd be cool as a friend. That is so rare. But wait, but I have to ask, do people turn you down?

Kim (07:08):

No one has ever turned me down, but what people do is just disappear. And that's the other thing I've had to learn is that friendship. People say it comes in seasons, and I've always been that person then if I really like you, I want to hold onto you and spend time with you. And I've definitely had friendships that were around for five or six months and then they just sort of disappear. And I've realized that that has to be okay. But I always think that, oh gosh, what did I say? Or what did I do? And you kind of put it on your own self more than thinking that, oh, they're busy or there's so many reasons, but people do disappear sometimes, and that's tough. But I figured for a reason.

Debra (07:49):

And then there's also the second date question, I guess, because it's one thing to go, oh, would you like to go grab a glass of wine and we'll go and hang out together? But then you have to decide, do I like you well enough to ask you out again as a friend, right?

Kim (08:04):

Yep, a hundred percent. And I feel like once you get past that, once you've done something together three times, then you're friends and then it becomes normal and you don't have to feel weird about it. But I feel like those first three times are a little bit, you just never know. And I've actually really relied on Groupon. That's another thing that people sort of forget about and make fun of, but there's so many fun things to do on Groupon that I've had a couple, three or four friendships that started that way with Let's just both go pick something interesting on Groupon and go do that. And it gives you sort of a shared adventure. One of the same person who I met through the interview, we went on a sidecar tour, so we both gotten this motorcycle sidecar and went on a tour and some kind of a wine tasting tour. So it was an adventure that kind of bonds you in a way that maybe just going out to dinner or happy hour doesn't do.

Debra (08:56):

Have there ever been moments that didn't go right or you turned weird?

Kim (09:05):

No, I mean there's definitely mishaps. I think the last time we were talking, I told you that I was out on a date or showed up for a date and ended up getting stood up. And I looked horribly sad because not only was I all dressed up on a Tuesday, but it was around Christmas time and I just went to a cookie exchange with a friend. So I had this beautiful box of cookies with a big bow on top, and I had sat it next to me on the bar so you could just completely tell that I was getting stood up and it wasn't my best night. But this woman ended up sitting down next to me and we hit it off and she actually asked for my phone number. She asked first, which was lovely, which I gave to her on a receipt. And then I didn't hear from her for probably six months. And I just thought, well, no big deal. I had a nice conversation with someone. It helped me get over the fact that I was getting stood up for the first time in my life. But then she actually remembered my last name, my first and last name from that conversation, found me online and sent me a Facebook messenger request, and we got together and have been friends ever since. So you never know.

Debra (10:12):

Aw, and good for her. That's brave to give someone your phone number.

Kim (10:17):

Yeah. Or to ask for it, right? Yep. And I also, I thought about one of the other things, I've met some friends, but I have an Airbnb that I room I rent in my house, and that is a very immediate intimacy to immediately be living with a stranger. So there's definitely some times where people wanted to be friends with me in that case, and I did not necessarily, and that's a tough thing to navigate when they're living in your house.

Debra (10:48):

Whoa…

Kim (10:49):

She asked if she could borrow my bathing suit once for my jacuzzi.

Debra (10:54):

Wait, what?

Kim (10:55):

So there’s definitely some boundary stuff there. I had to really, and I'm such a people pleaser, my first reaction is, well, of course. And then I was thinking, I'll just let her have it. I'll throw it away. But I had to get my courage together and tell her that that's two things. I don't share bathing suits and toothbrushes.

Debra (11:12):

But wait, we just have to double click on this for a sec. I just want all of our viewers and listeners just to check in on the fact that Kim rents a room in her house because she can meet new people again to that extreme ninja warrior spirit for friendship because if things don't go well…

Kim (11:33):

I'll be honest though. I mean I do it for money. I'm not entirely crazy. I'm not that all in. That was also part of my divorce and making sure that I could cover my expenses. And when I moved out, when I got divorced, I lived in 17 Airbnbs in a year. So I saw the other side of it and then I thought, well, this isn't too bad. So I did start doing it when I got home. So I do it primarily for the money, but also it is a great place to make friends. I've had one woman that stayed for a year and a half and was only going to stay for a month, and she definitely became a friend and then another person that ended up staying for five or six months.

Debra (12:13):

I need to know so much more about this. Do you interview people in a different way than if you know that you're going to be opening up your home in this way to them?

Kim (12:21):

For the most part, people will book short term and then end up wanting to stay. So by then I already know them and I know that it's good because I would mean if you were thinking about the old ways that people used to choose roommates and that type of stuff, you would get together and talk to each other. So for the most part, people, the woman that stayed for a year and a half had booked a month and then just asked if she could stay. And the other one was a friend who's a soccer player that had made the team here, moved into team housing and then just hated it. He was living in the living room, they were shoving as many soccer players as they could get in this house, and he couldn't really focus or he'd be the best athlete he thought he could be so moved back into here so he could have some quiet and space.

Debra (13:09):

That actually sounds lovely, like a grownup. All the best of living in a dorm without the crazy.

Kim (13:14):

Right. That was amazing. He would bring the full team over here at lunch and they would use the pool and rest during tryouts. And I did not hate having a soccer team in my backyard.

Debra (13:27):

Well done. Well done.

Kim (13:29):

Yeah, not bad.

Debra (13:32):

So do you get mad skills doing it this way? Are you able to suss out a situation and go, this is maybe this is a maybe or this is a no. How does it work for you inside your head?

Kim (13:46):

I think most people just, well, I mean when I meet someone, there's that definite connection and I think, and in the meantime, it's really just about forcing yourself out there to keep trying. I went to a new meetup group brunch last weekend and I woke up an hour and a half before and all I wanted to do was go back to sleep and not go. So it's a lot of energy to put yourself out there, but I got up and I did it. So I think just a matter of the thing that really works is just keep trying, getting yourself out there.

Debra (14:20):

When researchers do work on friendships, they have something that they call, what is it called? Fast friends. And it's a protocol that they use to connect strangers so that they can watch interactions. And it's this method of asking each other, sharing little things that become more personal and more personal over time, but not oversharing or undersharing or making someone else share a lot and not sharing. It's kind of that even sharing of back and forth. Have you found that that's kind of the way that you approach a series of new friends or how

Kim (14:58):

I don't think about it that much. For instance, at that brunch last weekend, there were 12 people there and me and one other person, we just had things in common. She was going through something that I had been through and we just naturally, I tried to talk to everybody, but we naturally just started talking to each other and we exchanged numbers, but then we haven't crossed that second date platform yet where we've crossed over. But I'm watching the meetup group now to see, okay, I'm going to see if the next time she does something, I'm probably going to want to show up. That type of thing, I guess I don't really think about it quite as much, but I mean it definitely works. And it reminds me of those, they have those 36 questions to ask, make anybody fall in love with you.

Debra (15:44):

I went through those. I have to say, this says more about me than it does about the questions that some of those were so intimate that I don't know that anyone has ever asked me those questions. And I would have a hard time sharing them.

Kim (15:56):

Really.

Debra (15:57):

You're a sharer though.

Kim (15:58):

I am. I'm probably an oversharer. Yeah, I will just put it out there.

Debra (16:04):

Kim and I have been friends for a while. I remember you always being very open, but have you learned to be even more open as a result of this adventure?

Kim (16:14):

Shockingly, I used to be very shy. So when I was up through even my first year of college, I was painfully shy, but I wanted to be a reporter. I had gotten a job at a newspaper. I was dating my husband at the time, and he used to call me the shy Reporter, and I made up quotes for people for the first four or five months I worked for that newspaper. It was a small paper and no one really cared as long as you've made them sound good, he had a really big family. And I remember the exact moment we were in Vegas at a wedding and he had left me for about an hour and a half and I was bored. I was sitting there alone and they told people, go find the person you love most in the room for this next dance. And he was coming towards me and I finally wasn't going to be alone. And the last minute he grabbed his aunt and pulled her on the dance floor and we got in a giant fight and he said, if you would talk to anybody, you wouldn't be so bored. And I thought, you know what? You're right. And the next day I just made myself start and now you can't shut me up.

Debra (17:18):

Oh my God, I am laughing so hard inside my heart about your first job. My first job was in corporate communications and I remember being terrified to call people on the phone. And so I would write down everything I was going to say, hello Kim. Good morning. I would write it down because otherwise I would just be too terrified to call.

Kim (17:45):

And our jobs were similar back in the day where sometimes you'd be given a list for earned media outreach where you'd have to call three or 400 people and it was just horrible. I hated doing it, but you get used to it over time. And yeah, now it's just kind of part of who I am. And I realized that people really respond to those personalities more. My first husband was a little bit of a clown. He worked at a hula hands Irish restaurant for even a couple years after graduation. And he told me a story. The people who worked there, the waiters would be there for a long time, but the managers would turn over a lot and every night when they would get there, they would order nachos for their first meal and he would carry it out, wait till the last minute and then pretend to trip and put his face in the guacamole in the sour cream. And my shy self was just like, that's dumb. I can't believe you do that. I was almost embarrassed that he did that. And then in watching him and how he interact with people, people just love that. They love you to be goofy. And I noticed that people liked him better than they like me. So even though we're divorced, he taught me some really important skills and I definitely changed. I realized that people just react to people that are a little bit more open.

Debra (19:06):

A little bit of face on the guacamole never hurts.

Kim (19:09):

Exactly. Nobody ever minded people thought it was funny.

Debra (19:14):

Can you list for me some of your top 10 meetups?

Kim (19:22):

When I was in Portland, they were more interesting, a little bit stranger in great Portland fashion, and I loved Portland, but I joined the Strange and Unusual Women of Portland and we went on tour or to a devil museum. I went to sex yoga--talking about oversharing--and that was held at a midwifery and we did 10 minutes of interpretive dancing at the beginning.  I joined a cold plunge group that does breath work and goes into the ocean dragon boat racing, whatever it is. I like the stranger the better. I am one of those people that has my hobby is trying to find a hobby. So I try things and I do it for six weeks and then I realize I don't love it and I move on to something else. So I'll try anything for a little while. So I did dragon boat racing actually in Portland, and I'm trying to start that up again here. I joined the meetup group was all excited, and then a week later they said it was shutting down, the organizer had disappeared.

Debra (20:28):

Oh my god,

Kim (20:30):

God love anybody that organizes a meetup group because so far that's sort of been beyond what I've been willing to do, but I am thinking about starting my own group now.

Debra (20:40):

Wait, so what would your group be?

Kim (20:42):

So I just read an article about loneliness and fact that it is as dangerous to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day or drinking six drinks. And that blew my mind. And evidently in the UK they have a minister of loneliness. They've actually appointed a government position to try and fix that. You would imagine it's going to cost a lot in healthcare costs. And they do these things called glamour parties. So once a month they invite the entire community and you dress up in your best outfit and just show up to a pub.

Debra (21:17):

So you get to wear fancy clothes and have food.

Kim (21:20):

No one gets to wear fancy clothes anymore now that we don't go out and have been bring food and just talk to new people. And they are trying to start one in every village in the UK. And I thought maybe we need a glamour club in San Diego.

Debra (21:34):

I love that. Alright, if you do that, we're going to make sure that we post it up on the site here so that people can join if they want to.

Kim (21:45):

That would be amazing.

Debra (21:46):

So we're not all as brave as you, Kim. We're not all as brave. So how does one get started? If you're shy, what would be the one thing to begin?

Kim (21:58):

I mean, I think the first thing to begin is admitting that it's a goal and making it a goal for yourself instead of just saying, I wish I had actually saying that this is my goal, I think is a huge thing. And sort of just getting past that stigma that there's not something wrong with you. This happens, we get older and we all need people. And maybe one of the easiest things to do would be what led you and I to this podcast is just reach out to people you care about that you haven't talked to in a while.

Kim (22:27):

You know that you already know them, it's going to be a great conversation and it feeds you in a way that then I think can get you a little bit more brave to maybe do other things. Then I would look at do three things, whatever it is, host a party and ask everybody that you invite that you already know and love to invite one person that you don't already know. I do that every year. I host a Gallant Times's party and invite all my girlfriends and ask everybody to bring somebody. I don't know. So that's one way you can do it with a core group of people that you already know or get one of your friends that has the same goal to show up to the meetups with you. That makes it a lot easier. So there's club sports, there's a lot of things that you can do short of opening up an Airbnb in your house, which is probably the furthest you can go or start something from work. Those people, you kind of have a sense for who you, like. Our job had had a movie club. Some people go out and see horror movies together, focusing on those core interests. So you know, have something in common generally makes it a little bit easier. And seeing a movie, you don't really have to carry on a conversation that whole time. That's

Debra (23:43):

True. I have some very, very outgoing friends and they have so many friends. And so sometimes what I'll do is just ask to be part of her friend group and then I automatically have all of her friends too.

Kim (23:57):

Yes, I do hate it when you invite your friends into your friend group and open up your friend group and then they don't do the same thing. I definitely have friends that still do that and they're like, no, sorry, I'm going out with my other friends. And

Debra (24:11):

Just, you bring up a good point though. Let's talk about sort of the rules of the road. What's reciprocity what? What's good manners when you're finding new friends?

Kim (24:23):

I have tried not to think about that because for a long time I was kind of like the scorekeeper that would think that people didn't like me as much if they weren't asking me to do things. I have some very busy friends with really big jobs that I will be lucky if I see them once every five or six months. And for a while that bothered me a little bit. And then I had to realize that everybody has different schedules and different needs for human interaction and I love to plan. And so I've decided that I'm not going to keep score anymore and I'm just going to go for it. But I do think just as being a nice person, showing up, that's the other thing that happens a lot in meetup groups, I would say you usually get about 30% of the people at RSVP actually showing up. And that's a huge thing for the organizers especially. So if you're going to commit to it, commit to it and go for it and then try to, if someone really goes out on a limb and tries to be friends with you, maybe it's your job to ask for the second date.

Debra (25:27):

That's really smart. And as you're saying that during Covid, I was part of a Zoom salon group, a group of women coming together and just talking about current events. And I was ashamed to learn that many of these women, most of these women, in fact, it was a hard rule that if their friend didn't reach out to them every few days that they were not true friends. And I'm like, wow, I can really let a long time go before I reach out to folks. So that was a really helpful thing to learn that people have different expectations of staying in touch, what that means. And so I've learned to listen harder to what other people's needs are on that

Kim (26:10):

Or even just asking. I had one friend that I literally will, she lives in Nashville, I will talk to her once every six months and at one point I'm like, Hey, it just doesn't feel like we're friends anymore. And she said, why? And I said, we just never speak to each other. And she said, well, you never told me that was a requirement psychiatrist. I got to hand it to her. But I'm like, alright, that's fair. I did never tell you that was a requirement. So now I would like to speak to you once a quarter in order to maintain our friendship. And she really tries and she doesn't make it happen, but she's got little kids at home and she's in a very different place in her life than I am.

Debra (26:49):

I love that though, that you were brave enough to have that conversation.

Kim (26:53):

I did not want to. But yeah, she definitely forced. It was, I was just a little Ben out of shape and just trying to exit and she's like, hold on a second, you never told me that's important.

Debra (27:05):

Oh my gosh. What do you know now that you wish you would've known a few years ago about the nature of friendships?

Kim (27:13):

I think all of that sort of give and take and it's really hard and intimate relationships not to make it about you. And I finally figured out it's not about me and people don't wake up thinking about how they don't want to be friends with me. They just are busy. Or the fact that some things come and go in your life and I've had friends for a couple years and then they just disappear. And that used to really hurt me. And now I realize that there's a reason for those things and just much more mellow than I used to be.

Debra (27:47):

Well, in fact folks that the reason that we're talking today is that Kim out of the blue pinged me on LinkedIn and said, what are you doing? And it was so nice to see your name come up in my LinkedIn messaging. So thank you for doing that.

Kim (28:04):

Of course, I actually went to a networking class and she challenged us to reach out to five people that we cared about every day for, well one day, one person a day for a week. And that was probably the best thing I ever learned in a network. I'm not a big networker. I don't like a group of a room full of people that I don't know is my worst nightmare. I'm not that brave or outgoing, but it's a good reminder that there's a lot of people you cross over in your life that maybe you lose touch with. But I always sort of like to talk to.

Debra (28:39):

And if folks want to talk to Kim, I'm going to Kim, if it's okay with you, put your LinkedIn profile on the site so that folks can know about you and reach out to you if they're interested.

Kim (28:51):

Absolutely. I'm always looking for new friends or a job as the loneliness minister. If the US wants to get on it and start saving ourselves some healthcare dollars,

Debra (29:03):

Can I nominate you? I'm going to vote for you.

Kim (29:06):

Thank you. I think that would be amazing. Or maybe we can start in California. I actually work in mental health and nobody is talking about that and I don't understand why it's really interesting that this is an issue that we know how to cure it, but we can't figure out how to make ourselves do it.

Debra (29:23):

And I think we're so used to it. I was struck visiting Greece that people would ask me, we hear that Americans are lonely, how does that work? They really wanted to know how you could be lonely.

Kim (29:35):

Yeah, they're so connected and spend so much more time together. And our wealth as a country just really breeds isolation. And covid certainly did not help. We all retreated into our houses and I think it's still sort of hard to come back out.

Debra (29:50):

Talk about one more thing, You made a really provocative statement to me when we chatted last week about you get to a certain point in your life where you have a home and it's lovely and you have enough money that you can just sort of wall yourself off in that home and that's your life. That same day, I was listening to Warren Buffett being interviewed and he said the exact same thing. So what's in the air here, Kim?

Kim (30:24):

I hope, I mean, it's happened with a lot of my friends and I do think that you have a choice later on in life when you can make these decisions to have your life continue to get bigger or to just sort of get smaller. And I think we all need to spend time around people who aren't us. And that is the thing that the Airbnb does for me and most of my family and my friends think I'm nuts. You're letting a stranger in your house. I'm a single woman and I'm here alone. And I have never been a big rah rah. I love all people person, but I will say that after doing this for four or five years, it has been an amazing experience and that 97% of people are amazing. But I think it is good for you to, people talk about getting out of your comfort zone and that's where the growth happens. And it's absolutely true when you have to get along with someone that grew up in a completely different way and a different place and a different culture and live that close with them, it does teach you a lot. And I definitely think that we need to be mindful about making sure our lives keep getting bigger instead of smaller.

Debra (31:34):

Well, you, Kim Coutts are amazing. Thank you for joining us today.

Kim (31:38):

Thank you so much. It was so great to

Debra (31:40):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at debra@darefulone.com. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's what the number one.com. Thanks for listening.

Meet Dr. Jennifer Wong, Director of the Wallis Annenberg GenSpace. GenSpace is a place--it's here in Los Angeles and offers lifelong learning to seniors in the community. But it's also a big idea. And a learning lab: how people of different ages can forge true friendships. How to keep us cur4ious and active (hint: bellydancing classes!) They're also changing the outdated national conversation around aging--how we think and talk about it. How to follow GenSpace: Facebook Instagram LinkedIn X

Guest Rabbi Judy Greenfeld explains to us how you move from a career in fitness to one of faith, what she's learned along the way and how we can begin to explore our own spiritual questions even if we've been away for a while. 

https://rabbicantorjudy.org/

 

Welcome to season 2 of The Dareful Project: a podcast series where we learn how to reimagine our lives. In season 1, we covered a lot of ground: how to date at 67, say goodbye to an old career and invent a new one and maybe my favorite, how to roll with life.

Season 2 leans even further into the joy and messiness that comes with living deeply. It's organized roughly around the insights from Arthur Brooks' terrific book, From Strength to Strength: How We Find Success, Happiness and Purpose in the Second Half of Life. We've got an awesome line up of guests--I can't wait for you to meet them!

Look for episodes available this summer on all the platforms you love.

Please subscribe to The Dareful Project--and please give feedback on our YouTube channel or DM us at debra@dareful1.com

 

It starts out innocently. You post a dating profile and someone smart and funny responds. There’s back and forth and they suggest moving to email. It feels like the start of a connection. Then, an urgent note: a family member needs medical care, an ex has made off with the savings, a child is stranded in another country. Even then, you’re thinking, that could happen. And they need my help.

And that’s how the scam starts.

One in five Americans ages 50-64 have used a dating app, including my friend Danny Kelley who’s agreed to share his dating scam story with us.

Good news: there are advances—soon and on the horizon—for Alzheimer’s. Learn more as we talk with Dr. Roberta Diaz Brinton, one of the world’s leading experts on women and our risk of Alzheimer’s disease. Dr. Brinton is director of the UA Center for Innovation in Brain Science at the University of Arizona Health Sciences. Her scientific discoveries have led to the development of innovative therapeutics to prevent, delay and treat the disease.

The Center for Innovation in Brain Science

We’re talking about reimagining our careers with John Tarnoff, an executive and career transition coach and author of Boomer Reinvention: How to Create Your Dream Career Over 50.  Before he was a career transition coach, John was a film producer, studio exec and tech entrepreneur. He reinvented his own career at 50, earning a master’s degree in counseling psychology to share his career lessons with others going through similar challenges. We talk about layoffs (own it and move on), resumes (ditch them except for background) and our super power of problem solving.

Click here for John’s free career jumpstart workbook.

And here's his terrific TEDx talk.