The Deep Map

Black Christians in America have three homelands — a national homeland in the US, an ethnic homeland in Africa, and a spiritual homeland in Israel — but the distances and disparities between these places can create confusion. This week, Robert sits down with Krystal Bracy, the Director of Philos Black, to talk through Black identity in 2023 and how it relates to justice issues at home and abroad. What is the significance of the Black church to African-Americans? How do they think about Africa, America, and Israel (and the Palestinians)? And what does global leadership look like for a community still facing local challenges?

For more information about Philos Black and its upcoming Global Leaders Summit visit philosproject.org/philosblack.

Krystal Bracy is the Director of Philos Black. A native of Oakland, CA, Bracy earned a BA in Political Science from UC Berkeley and an MDiv degree from Duke University with concentrations in Homiletics, Black Church Studies and African and African American Studies. A licensed Evangelist Missionary of the Church of God in Christ, Krystal has traveled throughout Africa, Europe, South America and the continental United States. She is passionate about social justice and improving the spaces in which people of color study, work, worship and live.

America is facing a crisis of faith; Latin America, meanwhile, is seeing revival. In one of the least reported phenomena of the 21^st century, evangelicalism has been sweeping the Spanish-speaking world and transforming its societies from the ground up — and not just its societies. In addition to the social effects of this revival are its political and geopolitical effects, as Latin American countries take a new interest in the land and people of Israel.

This week, Robert sits down with Jesse Rojo, one of the founding members of The Philos Project, to discuss the evangelicalization of Latin America and its spillover effects among US Hispanics. Weaving together demographic trends with the rich history of Hispanic-Jewish relations, Robert and Jesse explore the causes and effects of one of the world’s most fascinating cultural encounters. Along the way they reminiscence over a decade of friendship and work promoting positive Christian engagement in the Near East through Philos.

It is no secret that a liberal messianic approach to US foreign policy has fueled a number of unproductive wars over the years. But could our latest effort to defend Ukraine in the face of a Russian invasion actually be one of those wars? 

It's a question many Americans, both Democrat and Republican, are asking. With US aid to Ukraine nearing $100 billion -- and with thousands of nuclear warheads within arm's reach of Vladimir Putin's desk -- it's a good question. And it's one that got Florida governor and 2024 presidential candidate Ron DeSantis in trouble in March of this year. 

This week, Robert sits down with Damir Marusic, opinion editor at the Washington Post, to work through the dilemma of Ukraine. As a realist, Damir looks skeptically on talk of "democracy versus tyranny," preferring to analyze political conflicts through the lens of power and interests. But as a Croatian-American, Damir can't help but sympathize with a small nation fending off a hostile invasion, drawing parallels with the collapse of his native Yugoslavia in the 1990s.

What is really at stake in Ukraine, and what does victory look like? What are America's interests and obligations there? And how should we evaluate those interests in light of the moral and humanitarian questions raised by Putin's invasion?

In addition to his position at the Washington Post, Damir Marusic is also co-founder of the Wisdom of Crowds podcast and publishing platform. He was previously a resident senior fellow with the Atlantic Council’s Europe Center, where he worked with the Balkans Forward Initiative, an effort to foster a democratic, secure, and prosperous Western Balkans integrated in the transatlantic community. Marusic has written extensively on US politics, polarization, US foreign policy, and European affairs, specifically relating to the Balkans and Russia. He received an MA in international relations from the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies and a BA in philosophy from Johns Hopkins University.

In a surprising turn of events, the Arab world looks ready to bring Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in from the cold after suspending him from the Arab League 12 years ago for his bloody crackdown on civilian protests in 2011. But why are US allies like Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates suddenly extending the olive branch to the butcher of Damascus – and why now? How does all of this relate to the massive geopolitical realignment now sweeping the region, and what should the US do in response? 

In this episode, Robert talks with someone who knows the brutality of the Assad regime firsthand. Hadeel Oueis is a Philos senior research fellow and Syrian Christian who was imprisoned by Assad in the early days of the Arab Spring before she managed to escape Syria for the US. Drawing on a trove of insider knowledge, Hadeel explains the background of the civil war, its devastating effect on Syria’s Christian community, the emergence of the breakaway Kurdish region in the country’s northeast, the reasons behind the push for Arab normalization, and the failure of American policymakers to articulate a clear response to any of this.

In addition to her role at Philos, Hadeel Oueis analyzes Near Eastern affairs for BBC Arabic, Deutsche Welle Arabic, Al-Hurrah, and other major Arabic networks. She also has advocated for the rights of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews through JIMENA, and lobbied for peace and pluralism on a variety of other platforms.

Ninety-nine percent of the people who live in the Holy Land are Jewish or Muslim, as are 99 percent of the violent incidents that take place there. But what about the 1 percent who are Christian? What role do they play? To answer that question, Robert talks with his colleague and friend Khalil Sayegh, a Palestinian Christian from Gaza who recently finished five years with The Philos Project. In a heartfelt conversation that veers from analysis and debate to personal reflection, Robert and Khalil discuss the causes of recent violence in the land, the internal dynamics of Israeli and Palestinian politics, the role of religion, the prospects for peace, and the real value of peacemaking efforts between the two sides.

Khalil Sayegh worked with Philos as an advocacy fellow, research fellow, and Rami Ayyad Scholar while earning an MA in Comparative Politics at American University. Before moving to America, Khalil led Philos’s grassroots efforts in the West Bank where he organized support programs for Palestinian Christians, facilitated dialogue between young Israelis and Palestinians, and spoke to visiting delegations about the local situation. He now lives in Washington, DC. 

We would all like to see a secular, democratic Iran – but is it really possible in a place long governed by kings and strong men? How could democracy ever rise so long as the ayatollahs control the levers of state power? And are we sure the Iranian people even want it?

In this episode, Robert sits with Philos Senior Research Fellow Farhad Rezaei to ask these questions in light of widespread protests sweeping the country since September 2022. Farhad, an outspoken critic of the regime and a political asylee, believes that these protests offer a window into changing sentiments on the Iranian street – changes he sees as part of a slow-motion revolution – and insists that the goal of US policy should be nothing short of toppling the regime. He also discusses Iran’s nuclear ambitions and paramilitary activity around the region, and, as a Kurdish convert to Christianity, explains how religion and culture shape the geopolitical situation.

Farhad Rezaei is a senior research fellow at The Philos Project, where his work focuses on Iran and its violations against religious minorities in the Near and Middle East. He is the author of numerous books and articles on Iran's foreign and defense policy, and his research has appeared in many prestigious magazines and journals. His latest Philos publication is Invisible Jihad: The Treatment of Christians by Iran’s Proxies.

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief,” proclaims Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. But while the Islamic Republic of Iran is party to the UNDHR, religious freedom inside the country is elusive and only partial at best. Of special concern is Iran’s total restriction on the changing of one’s religious belief and its policy that abandoning Islam is not just apostasy but betrayal of the body politic.

With popular unrest still simmering in Iranian streets following the September 2022 murder of Mahsa Amini, Robert sits down with Marziyeh Amirizadeh, an Iranian convert to Christianity, to talk about her 2009 arrest for the crime of evangelism and her subsequent incarceration in the infamous Evin Prison, where she experienced months of intense interrogation and physical hardship until international lobbying efforts secured her release. In a heartfelt conversation, Robert and Marziyeh discuss the regime’s religious oppression, the underground church, and the importance of outside advocacy for religious minorities inside the country. 

Marziyeh Amirizadeh is an Iranian immigrant born just a few months before the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which toppled the Shah of Iran and brough a radical Islamic regime into power. Marziyeh grew up as a Muslim under this authoritarian regime, but converted to Christianity more than twenty years ago and began sharing her faith with fellow Iranians. After her release from prison, she immigrated to the United States where she earned a Bachelor and Master of Science degrees in International Affairs from Georgia Tech University. Today, she is a speaker and author who continues to her testimony in order to shed light on the situation in Iran and to inspire faith in others. Her latest book, A Love Journey with God: From Pain to Love, Captivity to Freedom, Iran to the US, details how God can turn any situation into triumph.

What on earth is happening in Israel right now? Widespread protests, political clashes, and rising violence in the West Bank paint a grim picture as the country approaches its 75^th anniversary. In this episode, Robert visits controversial Israeli scholar Benny Morris to talk about this chaotic moment in historical context, and specifically about the ongoing battle between Israel’s various tribes over the meaning and purpose of a Jewish state.

Benny Morris is a journalist and historian of the Arab-Israeli conflict who served in the Israel Defense Forces as an infantryman from 1967 to 1969 where he was wounded in combat during the War of Attrition. In his 12 years as a correspondent for the Jerusalem Post, Benny covered Israel’s conflicts with Arab states, notably the 1982 Lebanon War. He was also a longtime professor of Middle East Studies at Ben-Gurion University and Goldman Visiting Israeli Professor at Georgetown University's Department of Government. His work on the Arab-Israeli conflict has won him praise and criticism from both sides. 

The invasion of Iraq on March 30, 2003, initiated a sea change in U.S. foreign policy. In this first episode of season 2, Robert sits down with Darren Duke, a retired U.S. Marine Corps intelligence officer who was on the ground and saw the War in Iraq firsthand. In a wide-ranging conversation, Darren reflects on the civilizational barriers of American soldiers fighting an Islamic insurgency, struggling to make sense of the cultural limits on their mission. Together, Robert and Darren reflect on the legacy of Iraq 20 years on. 

Darren Duke is a non-resident Senior Research Fellow at The Philos Project. He is currently a graduate student studying Semitic languages at The Catholic University of America. Prior, Darren spent 30 years as a Marine Corps officer, serving in both military and diplomatic assignments in the Near East, Africa, and the Far East. He served as a military attaché to Israel during the Second Lebanon War (2006) and later as a member of the U.S. Roadmap for Peace security sector negotiating team (2008-2009). He also led a U.S. special operations task force in support of African Union counter-insurgency operations against the Lord's Resistance Army in 2014-2015. He holds a BS in Political Science from the U.S. Naval Academy and a MA in National Security Studies from the Naval. 

Looking back on the first three months of The Deep Map, Robert reflects on why he started the podcast, what he learned in Season One, and where he’s headed in Season Two. “The Deep Map,” he says, “is a civilizational podcast…premised on the idea that deep things, big things, invisible things, unite people across ethnic and national boundaries.” Going into the next season, he remains convinced that the clash and occasional convergence of those civilizations is the real secret of global affairs.

In a famous 1529 essay, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther described the Turks as the “rod of the wrath of the Lord our God” -- but Luther isn’t alone in playing up the violent tendencies of an entire nation. Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Bulgarians, Russians, Serbs, and Arabs all have sayings about the Turks, none of which are very flattering. But who are the Turkic peoples who rule countries like Türkiye and Azerbaijan today? What are some of the national and religious narratives that shape their view of the world? And why do their leaders seem so determined to eradicate Armenians from their homeland?

In this bonus episode, Robert sits down with Uzay Bulut, a dissident Turkish journalist and senior research fellow at The Philos Project, to answer these questions in a moving discussion about coming-of-age in a repressed society.

Uzay Bulut is a journalist, political analyst, and Senior Research Fellow at The Philos Project. Her writings have appeared in Modern Diplomacy, Washington Times, Christian Post, Jewish News Syndicate, Al-Ahram Weekly, Gatestone Institute, American Spectator, Providence Magazine, and Jerusalem Post.  She has participated in the 2018 Human Dimension Implementation Meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) and the 2019 Oslo Freedom Forum of the Human Rights Foundation, where she raised issues of human rights in Türkiye and other regions.

Highlights 

[00:02:30] Uzay’s upbringing in a Turkish nationalist stronghold and what led her to become a journalist and Turkish dissident 

[00:12:53] Overview of the Turkish/Kemalist nationalist narrative  

[00:15:46] The Turkish nationalist take on the Armenian Genocide and the history of the indigenous Christian and Jewish communities in the region 

[00:25:07] Overview of Erdogan’s AK Party and its blending of Islamism and Turkish Nationalism 

[00:32:06] Turkish influence beyond Turkey: Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, etc. 

[00:33:10] The dream of a pan-Turkic superstate and the enduring Armenian obstacle 

[00:40:23] Future of Armenia: is normalization with Turkey and Azerbaijan prudent? 

[00:44:48] How the United States can protect Armenians and other Christian minorities from Turkish aggression 

Further Reading

Sheri Oz, “Exiled non-Jewish Turkish woman studies antisemitism in Turkey. Interview with Uzay Bulut,” Israel National News (Dec. 27, 2022).

Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan Desecrates Armenian Cultural and Religious Heritage,” Providence (Dec. 13, 2022).

Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan Is Torturing and Beheading Armenians,” Providence (Dec. 5, 2022).

Uzay Bulut, “Who Are the Extremist 'Grey Wolves'?” Gatestone Institute (Nov. 29, 2021).

Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan and Turkey’s genocidal assault against Armenians,” Modern Diplomacy (Dec. 16, 2020).

The last five years have been anything but easy for Armenia. After a 2020 war, a 2022 invasion, and most recently, a blockade of 120,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, Armenians today are desperately seeking allies to ensure their security and independence in their ancestral homeland. This week, Robert and Mariam sit down with Eric Hacopian, an Armenian-American political strategist, to discuss the dilemmas of a tiny country surrounded by stronger neighbors, stranded in a sea of tyranny. Is Armenia more “Western” or “Eastern”?  Is it really a client state of Russia and Iran? Is a peace deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan truly possible? Finally, could a strong US-Armenia alliance serve both nations?

Eric Hacopian is a 30-year veteran of American politics, having worked on campaigns from the local to the presidential level. For the past 23 years, he has been the principle at EDH & Associates, a Southern California-based Democratic consulting firm. In 2017, he and his family moved from Los Angeles to Armenia.

Highlights

• [00:01:53] Eric’s journey from Iran to the US, and ultimately, to his homeland of Armenia. 
• [00:04:30] Armenia’s 2018 Velvet Revolution and its culture of freedom and solidarity 
• [00:10:45] The Second Nagorno-Karabakh War: major players and major losses
• [00:15:30] The Russia-Ukraine War, the Azeri regime, and joint Russian-Azeri Aggression 
• [00:20:00] 2022 September invasion of internationally recognized Armenian territory: the collapse of the Russian position, the death of the peace camp, and an American opportunity 
• [00:24:30] Armenia vs. the world: life on an island 
• [00:29:58] Is Armenia more “Western” or “Eastern”? 
• [00:35:30] The changing world: will Armenia and Azerbaijan normalize relations? 
• [00:37:25] Armenia’s affinity for the United States, the myth of the Armenia-Iran alliance, and the broad rejectionism of Soviet ideology 
• [00:44:54] Armenia’s Christian character and the Western bias against the Christians of the East 
• [00:48:41] The Armenian diaspora: incredible success yet unrealized potential 
• [00:52:03] Where can Western Christians find common ground with their Armenian brothers and sisters? 
• [1:00:54] Universalizing your story: what other minority Christian communities can learn from Armenians 

“Armenia is not even a colony, it is not even worthy of being a servant.” That’s the president of Azerbaijan, Armenia’s Turkish Muslim neighbor, telling the world in 2015 how he really feels about the Christian nation on his western border. Today, as this episode goes live, Azerbaijan is besieging 120,000 Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh as part of a long-term plan to eradicate Armenians from the region. For Armenians, this long-term plan goes back to the Turkish Muslim genocide of a century ago. In this episode, Robert and his colleague Mariam Wahba talk with Armen Sahakyan about that genocide and its connection to the ongoing assault on Armenians in the South Caucasus.

Armen V. Sahakyan is a Philos Project Advisory Board Member and an instructor at the American University of Armenia. Before that, he led the Armenian National Committee of America (Western Region) for three years and the Eastern Region office for four. Armen holds an MA in International Relations and International Economics from the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies and BA in International Political Economy from Bloomfield College. His writing has appeared in various outlets, including The National Interest, The Hill, The Christian Science Monitor, Asia Times, and Providence Magazine. Follow him on Twitter at @ArmenVS. 

Further Reading:

• Devin Watkins, “Pope Expresses Concern over Humanitarian Situation in South Caucasus,” Vatican News (Dec. 18, 2022).
• Uzay Bulut, “Azerbaijan is Torturing and Beheading Armenians,”Providence (Dec. 5, 2022).
• Remarks by Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Ilham Aliyev on the Two-Year Anniversary of the 2020 Karabakh war.
• Benny Morris & Dror Ze’evi, The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey's Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924 (Harvard University Press, 2019).

The oldest Christian nation in the world is about to celebrate the birth of Jesus amid growing tensions with its Muslim-majority neighbor, Azerbaijan. How Armenia – a tiny country of 3 million people sandwiched between Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia, Russia, and Iran – can survive the chaos of regional politics is unclear. In this episode, Robert and his Philos Project colleague Mariam Wahba sit down with Lara Setrakian, an award-winning Armenian-American journalist, to understand why Armenia matters, what it stands for, and why she moved her family back in these troubled times.

Lara Setrakian is the co-founder and CEO of News Deeply and a former Middle East correspondent for ABC and Bloomberg TV. She is a graduate of Harvard University.

Is the Israel we knew gone? In this bonus episode, Robert offers his thoughts on the question after a month-long investigation into Israel's recent elections. Along the way, he touches on Israel's religious and cultural evolution, the power of meta-narratives in politics, the two faces of the Jewish tradition, and Christianity's (theoretical) immunity to panic. The upshot? Israel is indeed changing, but not as wildly as many believe.

The Hebrew word for “tradition” comes from the same root as the English word: derived from the verb “to transmit,” it means to pass something down through time. When it comes to the deep map, tradition is everything – it’s the place where religion, culture, history, and memory converge. Once you start peeling back the layers of any social or political conflict, you’re almost certain to find a hidden battle over some intangible heritage, with defenders of that heritage on one side, opponents on the other, or, quite often, rival heirs of the same tradition locked in a fight to the finish.

As it turns out, the conflict within Israel’s political system is no different. In this episode, the last of the series, Robert sits down with Shahar Azani. Azani is a passionate advocate for Israel, Senior Vice President at JBS, Jewish Broadcasting Service, former Executive Director for StandWithUs in New York and a former Israeli diplomat at Israel’s Foreign Ministry for over 16 years - including Israel’s consulates in Los Angeles and New York. Before embarking on this career path, he practiced Law at Haim Zadok and Company, based in Tel Aviv, focusing on litigation. He has a law degree (LLB) as well as a Master’s in Business Administration (MBA).

Is Israel becoming more hawkish, religious, and tribal -- or just more “Middle Eastern”? Trying to understand the latest elections, Robert sits down with Canadian-Israeli journalist Matti Friedman to talk about culture in the Holy Land: what it is, what it's perceived to be, how it's changing, and what those changes might mean for the future. What do Israeli pop songs tell us about the zeitgeist? How does Itamar Ben Gvir's family roots in Iraq help explain his politics? Which experience better forecasts relations between Arabs and Israelis: the Abraham Accords of 2020, or the violent riots committed by Arab-Israeli citizens just a few months later?

Matti Friedman is a prominent Canadian-Israeli journalist and award-winning author. He previously served as an Associated Press (AP) correspondent and has written op-eds and essays for a number of notable publications including the New York Times, Smithsonian Magazine, and The Atlantic. He is the author of four non-fiction books on Israel, including his newest work, Who by Fire, the story of Leonard Cohen's concert tour to the front lines during the Yom Kippur War. Matti currently writes a monthly feature for Tablet Magazine and resides in Jerusalem with his family.

We are all the sum of our stories – and Israelis are no different. In this episode, Robert catches up with Amb. Michael Oren to probe the latest Israeli elections in more depth, zeroing in on the hidden stories that animate the country’s voters as they pick candidates and shape the future of the country. Drawing upon a lifetime of Forrest Gump-like experiences and his own career as a storyteller, Amb. Oren opens up about his own meta-narrative(s) and how they’ve guided him through four decades in the arena. Along the way he touches on antisemitism, faith, leadership, courage, “seeing,” and a range of other topics. And all to the sweet sounds of Muzak as he sits in the lobby of a New Orleans hotel.

Dr. Michael Oren is an American-born Israeli historian, author, politician, soldier, and former ambassador to the United States (2009–2013). His latest book is Swann’s War, a historical fiction “whodunit” set in the final years of World War II.