avastin

On episode 150, we welcome Dr. Mikkael Sekeres to discuss the social and political climate that fostered the necessity to create the FDA, medical charlatans and the history of pseudo-medicine, the necessity of clinical trials for creating safe and effective medications, why anecdotal evidence isn’t equivalent to scientific validation, the FDA’s decision to remove the breast cancer indication for the drug Avastin and Genentech’s decision to fight it, Mikkael’s personal experience during that hearing while a member of the jury, the public’s distrust of the FDA and where it stems from, Genentech spin-doctoring data to make their case for the safety and efficacy of Avastin, why mostly harmful medications should be removed from circulation if proven so, and how the FDA decides on which drugs to approve and which ones to recommend removing.

Dr. Mikkael A. Sekeres is Professor of Medicine and Chief of the Division of Hematology at the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of Miami Miller School of Medicine, and former Chair of the Oncologic Drugs Advisory Committee of the FDA. He is the author or co-author of over 400 manuscripts and 650 abstracts published in leading journals such as NEJM, Blood, Journal of Clinical Oncology, Nature Genetics, Cancer Cell, Journal of the National Cancer Institute, Journal of Clinical Investigation, PLoS One, and Leukemia. A regular contributor to the Well section of the New York Times, has authored 8 books, including When Blood Breaks Down: Life Lessons from Leukemia and his newest book, available now, is called Drugs and the FDA: Safety, Efficacy, and the Public’s Trust.

| Mikkael Sekeres |

► Website | https://bit.ly/3UetF8h

► Twitter | https://twitter.com/MikkaelSekeres

► Drugs and the FDA Book | https://amzn.to/3Df18IA

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In the second part of this Oncology, Etc. episode Drs. Patrick Loehrer (Indiana University) and David Johnson (University of Texas) continue their conversation with Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann, exploring the prominent leadership roles she held, from first female Chancellor at UCSF to CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and member of Facebook’s Board of Directors.

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts | Additional resources: education.asco.org | Contact Us

Air Date: 11/18/21

 

TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

PAT LOEHRER: Hi, Everybody. I'm Pat Loehrer. I'm director of the Centers of Global Health at Indiana University, Melvin and Bren Simon Comprehensive Cancer Center.

DAVE JOHNSON: And I'm Dave Johnson. I'm Professor of Medicine here at UT Southwestern Medical School in Dallas, Texas. So Pat, we're back for another episode of the award winning "Oncology Et Cetera."

PAT LOEHRER: Just seems like last month we were here time, you know? Time just flies.

DAVE JOHNSON: Exactly. Before we get started, you were telling me about an interesting book you were reading-- something about friends or something. Can you elaborate?

PAT LOEHRER: Sure, sure, yeah. This book I picked up-- actually, my wife picked it up. It's called First Friends.

It's written by Gary Ginsburg. It's a really interesting book. It was-- basically talks about-- it probably has about eight or nine presidents but the importance of having a friend that guides him.

And these were people that were, in many ways, unelected people that were close to the presidents that helped change the face of what we see today, and some of them are stories of really good friends and some of them are, I think, opportunistic friends. But it gives you a background of people like Madison and Lincoln and Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson. It's actually a fun read.

DAVE JOHNSON: I'll definitely put it on my reading list. It sounds like a pretty exciting one. Well, speaking of influential people, we're really excited to jump back into our interview with Dr. Helman.

In our last episode, we covered her early life and career, her work in Uganda, her views on global oncology, and her experiences in private practice and industry. In the next half of our interview, we'll learn more about her incredible career and her multiple leadership roles. Let's start by hearing about her time as chancellor of UCSF.

PAT LOEHRER: Let me transition a little bit. What I'd like to do is talk a little bit about your leadership. One Of the next big roles you had, you became chancellor at UCSF, correct?

SPEAKER 2: Mm-hm.

PAT LOEHRER: And so as Dave said, I think you were the first woman in that role.

SPEAKER 2: I was.

PAT LOEHRER: You were a groundbreaker from that capacity. So now instead of working for people-- obviously, I understand that there's people you work for when you're chancellor too, but tell a little bit about that transition from industry back into academics and how that felt in the role of being a leader and then maybe the responsibility of being the first female chancellor.

SPEAKER 2: There were parts of being the chancellor at UCSF, I would say most parts of it, that I just thought were fantastic. I loved being back at a hospital and clinics. Just the way the hospital and clinical enterprise at UCSF works, the chancellor is the board.

And so once a month, you'd have neurology or cardiology come and tell you about what had happened, quality control, things that had gone on and I would have done that all day long. I mean, it was just so interesting. It was so important to run a great clinical enterprise that getting back closer to patients and medicine I thought was fantastic.

The other thing was the educational enterprise, and UCSF, as you know, has medicine, pharmacy, dentistry, nursing. I always tell people, no undergraduates, no English majors, no marching band. And the other chancellors reminded me, no athletic director, which apparently is a very good thing.

So UCSF is a very special and unusual place. And I loved the science. I would show up at research seminars and things like that as often as I could. So there were so many parts of being at UCSF that I thought were just off the charts great.

The hardest thing about being at UCSF-- being the first female chancellor, I think, was challenging but not in ways that you might expect. I was used to being a woman leader in medicine and biotech, which was unusual. So being the only woman in the room, being the first, wasn't new to me.

But the thing that was hard on our family was there are roles for the spouse of the chancellor that fit more neatly into more of a classic female role, hosting things. There was a tea party for the wives of the faculty that the wife of the chancellor typically had. And for some reason, Nick didn't think that that suited him. We sort of laughed about that.

DAVE JOHNSON: He can't make tea?

SPEAKER 2: He can't make tea to save his life. And he's a strong introvert, which made it worse. I will tell you, some of the under-recognized, underreported people in life are spouses of chancellors and presidents of universities.

And talk about unpaid labor-- my goodness! And so we sort of struggled with how did Nick show up, what did that look like. Because we didn't have any role models for what that looked like. I still laugh that Bill Clinton said he would be First Laddie.

So when you have a pattern recognition, life is easier. And then being one of 10 chancellors at the UC system, I struggled a little bit with the UC Regents just because it felt-- I became chancellor in 2009, and we had some fiscal realities that we were dealing with. And the pace of the UC Regents and the format of the UC Regents, I actually made a proposal for UCSF to kind of break off from the other 9.

And that was not well-received, got me in the newspaper. And I did not do that again. People saw it as disloyal and not very smart. But all in all, I thought then and think now that our public universities are absolutely-- they're treasures in America. And I was really proud to be a part of it and hope that I had made a contribution.

DAVE JOHNSON: Speaking of leadership, what was it like to be CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? What caused you to step away from chancellor to philanthropy?

PAT LOEHRER: It's not a step down. It's not a step down, basically.

DAVE JOHNSON: It is not a step down.

SPEAKER 2: So I would say a couple of things. First of all, Bill and Melinda pushed me hard to take the job. I was not looking to change.

My husband worked at the Gates Foundation for a couple of years on HIV. So they knew us, and they knew Nick better than me. But they knew both of us.

We awarded Melinda the University medal at UCSF. And to my great surprise and happiness, she accepted and came. I later think that she was using that as a reason to talk to me about the CEO job, but she got a twofer.

And I was really compelled by the mission. Who wouldn't be? I was really compelled by the mission and the chance to get back into global health after the experience I had had in Uganda.

But I'll tell you, it is the ambition of the Gate Foundation, the scope of the Gates Foundation, the resources, and the need to get something done. I tell you, it is hard work. It is really hard work-- from China to India to all of the continent of Africa and then US education.

Throw that in on top of things. So I was thrilled to be a part of driving the agenda and the mission. Some really talented people who are working very hard at the Gates Foundation-- I was surprised, especially on US education, with the amount of pushback. And I worked really hard to be successful at working with Bill, who's known as a tough character and lived up to that mutation.

DAVE JOHNSON: Good to know, just in case he calls Pat or me.

PAT LOEHRER: Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to get a medal at UCSF either. So that's a--

DAVE JOHNSON: You never know, Pat.

PAT LOEHRER: It's a non-starter. And this may not apply to you, but there's a lot of maybe disproportionate number of women who feel they suffer from this imposter syndrome. To be honest, Dave and I have talked about that.

We both feel in that syndrome too. But along the way, I mean, if you think about growing up in Reno, Nevada, and suddenly now being a chancellor and head of the Gates Foundation, the National Academy of Science, was there ever this sense of the, wait a minute, you know, what's going on? Is this real?

SPEAKER 2: For me, there has always been that sense. There has always been that sense, and I look at it as I hope there always will be that sense-- that the kind of need to demonstrate your value. And there's a part of the imposter syndrome that is humility and not overestimating what you can do.

And so on my best days, I think that leads me to say I've got to work with really terrific people. My job is to bring out the best in others. If I lead, it's because there's a great thing we're going to accomplish, and I can help people see where we're going together.

And so I definitely have had imposter syndrome. But the one thing that I probably overused and kind of grew to like too much was the thing of people underestimating me and then proving them wrong. That gets a little wearying after a while.

It's like, OK, we're going to waste some time while you decide whether I'm worthy or whether I can do this. And let's not waste that time. Why don't you assign to me-- give me some confidence, and I'll live up to that.

And I mentioned Art Levinson was my boss for most of the time I was at Genentech. And he had no time for imposter syndrome. He was like, look, how many promotions do you have to get before you think, OK, I can get this done?

He thought that was sort of-- he just didn't have time for it. We have things to do, and he had jobs to get done. And one of the things I loved about him is he would constantly push me to say, you're capable of more than you think you are, which I think is the sign of a fantastic manager, which he was and is.

And so I've tried to push myself to do that. And the thing is, like, you can do this. Come to me for help.

We'll make sure you succeed, but don't underestimate yourself. And I think that's a consequence of imposter syndrome is both wasting time proving yourself and not taking on something that you think, actually, let me give that a try and stack the deck in favor of succeeding. And so I think that's the thing that-- there's a certain fierceness that I've always had that I like about myself that, like, of course we will succeed.

Failure is not an option. Of course we will succeed. And I think that comes from working on things that I value a lot and care about a lot.

PAT LOEHRER: You have been on a number of different boards, including Pfizer as well as Facebook. And in that capacity, you've seen a lot of leaders. Can you talk a little bit about the strengths and the weakness of various leaders as well as serving on the boards and the capacities of the different companies?

SPEAKER 2: Yeah, well, first, let me say I know ASCO is actually a really good about being careful about conflicts of interest and things like that, and I am too. So when I became chancellor at UCSF and then CEO at the Gates Foundation, I avoided being on life sciences boards. And so I got asked a lot by Biotech and pharma boards to be on their boards.

Initially, I joined Procter Gamble's board, where I served for, I think, about six years. And then I joined Facebook's board. And those were both fantastic experiences.

And I actually joined the boards for two very different reasons. One, P&G's board, I wanted to learn about branding and consumers. And I felt like in medicine, I didn't really learn about consumers or branding as much as I needed to or might.

And then Facebook's board I joined because as Dave mentioned, I was with Charles Sawyers. We wrote the precision medicine report for the National Academy. And I really love-- to this day, I love the concept of using the social network to connect people.

There was sort of an infamous story or famous story-- it's actually a good story-- of patients with a certain form of myeloma who found each other on Facebook and went to Genentech and said, make a new medicine for those of us with this genetic abnormality. And we'll all enroll in a trial. And so these connections to me felt really powerful on precision medicine.

And so getting to work with CEOs at Procter and Gamble, the CEO Mark Zuckerberg at Facebook, I do see the really different attributes of leaders. But when you're a board member, you see those attributes of leaders with a very different lens. What's the return to shareholders?

How does the community think about them? What's the impact-- and increasingly for Facebook, what's the impact on the world? What's the impact on our social discourse and our ability to have a free and fair election? A lot of those things became much more operative on the Facebook board while I was on the board and really tough social issues that continue to this day.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, so we could go on for another hour, hour and a half, but I have one question to ask you which may seem a little bit silly in retrospect. But if you could look back on your youthful self at 21 or 22 knowing what you know now, with all the things that you've done during the course of your career, what advice would you give yourself? And perhaps I'll addend that by saying what advice would you give particularly to young women in the medical profession who are trying to balance that work-life balance that everyone talks about and worries about and struggles with, quite frankly.

SPEAKER 2: I'll give you one thing I should have done better and one thing that I think I did well. So the advice on the one thing I should have done better, I think slow down a little bit and take a bit more time for fun and enjoyment. I was extremely worried about money when I was in college, and being number two of seven-- every summer, I worked.

I remember at one point in medical school, I had three weeks off, and I got a job for those three weeks at a deli making sandwiches. And I went to college for three years, crammed it into three years so I wouldn't have to pay for the fourth year. So I just think that I could have taken on more loans.

I could have done some things to just dial it down a bit because you don't get those years back. And that's such a great time of your life when you're 21, 22, something like that. So I wish I'd have just slowed down a bit and not been so driven for those seven years of university and medical school that I really just either worked or studied all the time.

The thing that I feel like I did well, and I would say this to anybody who's going into medicine, is there's so many opportunities. There's so many wonderful things to do. But whoever your spouse is, whoever your partner in life is, take the time and energy to make sure that's the right person for you.

I feel so blessed. Actually, my husband, who I've mentioned several times in this discussion, Nick, was my roommate in San Francisco when I was an intern, like real roommate. And we've been roommates ever since.

And we're very compatible. He's one of seven kids too. It's another Catholic school kid.

And we just have fun together and support each other. And there's no way I could have taken these crazy jobs or done the kinds of things I've done without Nick. So having a wonderful, supportive partner makes everything better.

DAVE JOHNSON: That definitely resonates with Pat and me. We're both very blessed to have wives and spouses of, for me, it's 52 years. I can't remember, Pat. Yours is close.

PAT LOEHRER: I had my first date with my wife 50 years ago, yeah.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah.

SPEAKER 2: OK, so you guys know what I'm talking about.

PAT LOEHRER: Absolutely.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah.

PAT LOEHRER: Yeah.

DAVE JOHNSON: Go ahead, Pat.

PAT LOEHRER: I was going to ask a question that you probably may have already answered there, but Bob Woodward just came out of an interview with Colin Powell. One of the last questions he asked him was if he could reflect on that one person that was a moral compass for him. And so for you, that one person, alive or dead, that has been not the most powerful person you've met but the one that's really influenced you the most in terms of giving you direction, who would that be for you?

SPEAKER 2: Probably, if I look at through line the entire time I've been alive, it would be my dad. He had the ability to look at a room and find the person who was struggling and go over to them. And I really loved that about my dad.

PAT LOEHRER: I love it.

DAVE JOHNSON: One last question. So we're at the top of the hour, and I know you're a very busy person. Pat and I love to read, but we're also documentary fiends and whatnot.

We're interested. What have you read recently that really resonated with you? Do you have a recommendation for us?

SPEAKER 2: I will say during the pandemic, I've gotten back into reading biographies, which I love.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah.

SPEAKER 2: So I did the Caro, Lyndon Baines Johnson, which, Master of the Senate is really good. But my favorite book of the last two years is The Code Breaker, Walter Isaacson's book about Jennifer Doudna.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah.

SPEAKER 2: One of the things I love about Walter Isaacson is he teaches you science through his biographies. Like, I think I understand relativity based on his Einstein biography, which is great. But The Code Breaker is really super good.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, we both read it. We couldn't agree with you more.

PAT LOEHRER: Love it. Love it.

DAVE JOHNSON: So Sue, again, it's been a real honor to have you as our guest, and we really appreciate the time you've taken. Thank you so much, and we hope you enjoy the beautiful weather in Alamo California, and I hope it does turn green and the rain continues for you.

SPEAKER 2: Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Thank you both.

DAVE JOHNSON: Take care.

SPEAKER 2: Bye.

DAVE JOHNSON: I want to take the moment to thank our listeners for tuning in to "Oncology Et Cetera," an ASCO educational podcast where Pat and I really will talk about anything and everything. So if you have an idea or a topic you'd like to share with us and like for us to pursue, please email us at education@asco.org. Thanks again, and keep in mind that Pat is a giant in oncology, but he's a short instructor. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER 1: Thank you for listening to this week's-- to make us part of your weekly routine, click Subscribe. Let us know what you think by leaving a review. For more information, visit the comprehensive e-learning center at elearning.asco.org.

Part one of this two-part Oncology, Etc. episode features an inside look at the amazing career of Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann (spanning from early AIDS research in Kenya and drug development at Genentech, to serving as UCSF Chancellor and CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation). Hosted by Drs. Patrick Loehrer (Indiana University) and David Johnson (University of Texas).

Subscribe: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts | Additional resources: education.asco.org | Contact Us

Air Date: 11/04/21

 

TRANSCRIPT

[MUSIC PLAYING]

 

SPEAKER: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

DAVE JOHNSON: I'm Dave Johnson. I'm a Professor of Medicine here at UT Southwestern Medical School in Dallas, Texas.

PAT LOEHRER: I'm Pat Loehrer. I'm Director of the Centers of Global Health at Indiana University Melvin and Bren Simon Comprehensive Cancer Center.

DAVE JOHNSON: We have a remarkable guest today, Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann. She's like the Wonder Woman of oncology who's done many amazing things during the course of her career. It would take us more than an hour or more just to read off her CV.

But very briefly, Dr. Hellmann is a graduate of the University of Nevada, Reno where she got both her Bachelor and her medical degrees. She received her medical training at the University of California, San Francisco. And then after that, did something really interesting. She went to Uganda for a couple of years and worked at the Ugandan Cancer Institute where-- maybe we can delve into that a little bit later during the course of this discussion to find out what she did while she was there.

After which, she also did a couple of years of private practice and then joined industry, first at Bristol Myers, where she was instrumental in the development of a very important drug for a lot of different diseases-- paclitaxel And then in the mid-90s, she joined this little biotech company called Genentech, first, I think, as a clinical scientist. But over the course of a few years, she rose to the level of president of product development and really was instrumental in developing many drugs, including trastuzumab and bevacizumab.

In fact, I think it was Forbes magazine that named her as one of the world's seven most powerful innovators, which we have to ask her more about that later, about being a powerful innovator. After really a stellar career in the industry, she then went back into academics. She became the chancellor of the University of California, San Francisco, and I believe the first woman to hold that position, if I'm not mistaken.

During her tenure, many remarkable things happened at UCSF, including growth of their campus in the Mission Bay. She was responsible, with a committee put together by the National Academy of Sciences, of producing the report entitled Toward Precision Medicine, Building the Knowledge Network for Biomedical Research and a New Taxonomy of Disease.

In March of 2014, I believe it was, she took yet another position, this time in the world of philanthropy, where she became the chief executive officer of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, a position she held until December of 2019. And that's certainly something we want to ask her about. Dr. Hellmann has many, many accolades. I can't list them all, but she's a member of the Biotech Hall of Fame, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, and she's even received an honorary science degree from Princeton University.

They won't even invite us to the campus, Pats. I'm not sure what it takes to get an honorary degree, but Sue, welcome to Oncology, Etc. And thank you so much for agreeing to this interview.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Well, thank you for having me. I'm really glad to be here and look forward to our conversation.

DAVE JOHNSON: Pat, why don't you ask the first question.

PAT LOEHRER: So Sue, if you could tell us a little bit about yourself from birth until your early career and what shaped your early directions.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Well, I'm actually a California native and grew up in Reno, Nevada, thus the University of Nevada connection. I'm one of seven children. I'm number two. And my affinity for science and medicine and all things regarding patients came from my dad, who was a retail pharmacist. And that's how we moved from California to Nevada.

My dad and his partner Jim opened up one of those Rexall Owl drugstores-- if you ever remember those with the owl picture-- and were partners for many years, ran a pharmacy in Reno, Nevada which, when we got there, was a really small town. And I often chuckle when people say, oh, there's something sort of funny about growing up in Reno, Nevada. Did you go to casinos all the time?

The fact of the matter is that my parents were very strict disciplinarians. We weren't allowed to work in the casinos as summer jobs, much less go to the casinos. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. Going to college was the first time I didn't wear a uniform to school, which was funny. But both my values and my passions came from worshiping my dad and the contributions he made to people feeling better.

PAT LOEHRER: Love it. Love it.

DAVE JOHNSON: It's fantastic. May I ask-- I presume you chose to go to UCSF for your medicine training because of your California connection. Is that right? Or was there other reasons?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: There were two main reasons. One is UCSF was far and beyond my number one choice because of its reputation. And when I interviewed there, I just was so astounded that I recognized the names of my medical textbooks among the faculty. That was a big deal for me. Holly Smith was a chair of medicine. I mean, it was the dream to go to UCSF.

My dad was born and raised down the street from UCSF. And my grandma still lived there. And so, for me, it was also-- being the first time I had been away from home-- it was close enough to Reno that it wasn't crazy to drive back for the weekend. So a little bit more close to home and much more importantly, for me, the mecca where I would just get to be around so many talented people.

PAT LOEHRER: When you were there, it was really at the early times of the AIDS pandemic. And there is some wonderful people there that I'm sure you interacted with, included Paul Volberding and the other group. So tell me a little bit about that influence. And that probably led, in part, to the transition to Uganda. But tell us a little bit about that part of your story.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: So my time at UCSF, first of all, I think it's, especially being in the midst of COVID-19, it made so many of us recall what it was like to be in San Francisco in 1982. It was really exhausting and terrifying to be a health care provider when so many of your patients-- first of all, they died quickly before antiretrovirals. But there was such a lack of understanding of what was going on initially.

And so the medical program at UCSF, like a lot of programs of its nature, in New York, LA, led to Paul Volberding, Don Abrams, Laurie Kaplan, a lot of colleagues-- the oncologists became AIDS doctors and oncologists, because of Kaposi sarcoma and lymphoma and other maladies. And I remember I did an additional year as chief resident. And one of our concerns was whether or not the medical residents were overweight HIV and underweight kidney disease and hypertension.

And there was a concern that people might not come for the residency because they were worried about catching AIDS. I mean, we were part of a study to test us. And happily, unless you had a needle stick, you really weren't at great risk. But the residency was very much influenced by that. I was very much influenced by that I had a lot of passion for caring for the patients. I think I had a lot of empathy for what they were going through.

And think about this, go home and tell your parents you have HIV. And by the way, they didn't know you were gay, because a lot more people were closeted in those days. That's a really tough set of circumstances. So by the time I was an oncology fellow and then a faculty member, I saw, really, all the patients at UCSF at the University Hospital who had AIDS-related cancers. That became my specialty.

And I was funded by the California State Task Force on AIDS to study Kaposi sarcoma. But when the Rockefeller Foundation came to UCSF to ask them to study heterosexual transmission of HIV, the late Merle Sande and Dick Root asked my husband, who's an infectious disease doc, and I to move to Uganda and accept this Rockefeller grant and study heterosexual transmission of HIV and Kaposi sarcoma.

And I actually think it's a bit of a funny story. But it was less funny then, because I was so uncertain. I had never been east of Chicago at that point in my life. But we flew and moved to Uganda. So I became a global citizen quite quickly. And it was both the most important experience that my husband and I had had in medicine and life.

And to say it was challenging would be an understatement. I mean, we did not have consistent electricity or running water. And we had this multi-page grant where we were supposed to do ELISAs and Western blots. It was a little crazy, but we got some things done and that was the important thing.

DAVE JOHNSON: So Pat's never been further between Indianapolis and Chicago. So he resonates with him.

[LAUGHTER]

 

DAVE JOHNSON: So you were there how many years? You were there two years, I think.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Two years.

DAVE JOHNSON: And did you accomplish the things that you set out to do while you were there? Or how did that go?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: We worked with our Ugandan colleagues and really transformed what you could do at Uganda Cancer Institute at the TB clinic in collaboration with folks from Case Western Reserve and for the AIDS program. So by the time we left, things just were dramatically better and different. We also did a lot of teaching, a lot of patient care. And so there was a service element to what we did, which was really essential that that be part of it.

I had the opportunity, when I was at Gates Foundation in 2019, to return to Uganda. And the one thing you got at Cancer Institute, which was founded by NCI-- our National Cancer Institute, they are excellent at record keeping, all paper. And they dutifully pulled out some of the notes I wrote on my patients with Kaposi sarcoma with the references and citations. So this sort of nerdiness that we had at UCSF did transport to Kampala Uganda.

DAVE JOHNSON: I hope they gave you some copies of those, with the name struck out of course, for your private collection. That's cool.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: It was actually pretty astounding to return. And now Fred Hutch has a collaboration with Uganda Cancer Institute and has done a lot of renovations and new science on the virology of Kaposi sarcoma.

PAT LOEHRER: So before we skip from this and move to something else, if you could reflect a little bit about what you currently think the importance of global oncology is. It obviously had an influence on you. And how do you think it should fit in or does fit in now? UCSF has got its fingerprints around the globe now. I'm on their EAB.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Well, let me just say from-- I'll speak to this sort of personally and then in a more big-picture way. Personally, I felt that the slogan of the Gates Foundation and every place can be too "slogan-y," so you always have to be careful about this. But the slogan that I just so had an affinity for is "all lives have equal value." All lives have equal value, for me, says that someone struggling or suffering, no matter where they are in the world, is worthy of our care and attention. And global oncology, I think, reflects that.

So one of the things that I learned when I was there-- and I felt really good about this. I was glad that I learned from colleagues in Uganda and they learned from me. And so there was a real collaboration on figuring out-- I'll give you a real example. As you know, Kaposi sarcoma causes a lot of edema and lymphedema in the lower extremities. Well, if you've got lymphedema in your lower extremities, you can't farm, you can't dig, you can't feed your family.

And we had bleomycin and vincristine. And with a combination of those two, in relatively small amounts to avoid toxicity, I could get someone back on their feet literally. And well, that's a great thing. And so the practical nature of symptom improvement, the avoidance of side effects, the attention to quality of life was amplified by my experience there. So I think those kinds of things-- I always like, in life, you give and you get.

I gave. I contributed. I worked hard. And I got a lot of new knowledge and understanding. In addition, the deep understanding of pathophysiology that came from thinking about African Kaposi sarcoma, Mediterranean Kaposi sarcoma, age-related Kaposi sarcoma. There's just a lot of science, just a lot to learn if you were paying attention and probing what was going on. So I think global oncology is extremely important. And it's important that it be sustainable and appropriate and with, always, service and training as a component, not only research.

PAT LOEHRER: Agreed. I agree.

DAVE JOHNSON: We have so much to cover, I don't want to spoil everything. But I'm really curious when you left Uganda, you went into private practice, right?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Mm-hmm.

DAVE JOHNSON: How did that happen?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: We had to pay the rent.

DAVE JOHNSON: There you go.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Yeah. Yeah, when we came back, there was no global health. There was no place for us at UCSF. So we had one of those surreal academic experiences of sitting down with the new chief of medicine and him saying, there's no money for you. So you'll need to do a lot more clinical care and earn your salary.

And Nick, you're going to-- my husband-- you'll need to write at least two R01 grants. And so you better get moving. And we were disappointed that there really wasn't a place or mentorship or anything for us at UCSF. But we didn't have time to lick our wounds. So Nick is from Kentucky. And we moved back to Lexington, Kentucky and went into private practice.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, economic necessity has changed.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: I mean, I can make it a little more romantic and interesting, but it was economic necessity. And honestly, I love patients, I love oncology, and I thought that was fine. One of the learnings from that was how deeply I missed research and R&D. And I'm very academically oriented. And so both Nick and I realized, when we were there, that we did very well. People liked seeing us as clinicians. And we were well-trained and could take good care of people. But it wasn't the right fit.

DAVE JOHNSON: So from there, if I remember correctly, you transition to industry.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Yeah, actually it's a good story. So Nick got called up about from Bristol Myers Squibb, did he want to come and join their infectious disease group up in Connecticut at Wallingford. And he said, of course, I would love that. But I won't come unless you take my wife too.

And they said, no, we have a nepotism rule. We won't take your wife. And he said, well, you haven't met her yet. They said, why do we want a private practice oncologist at Bristol Myers Squibb. We need serious clinical trials people. And so Nick was somewhat persistent. And he just said, I won't come. He's a good husband. That's it.

PAT LOEHRER: Sounds like it.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: He still is. And so they hired me as a consultant. And they were really busy on Taxol. It had gotten approved for ovarian cancer but not yet for breast cancer. And so I like to say they stuck me doing drug safety. And saying, she's like an LMD, she's a clinician. We'll have her do drug safety. She can't cause too much harm over there.

And I tell you, the opposite of going into private practice, which was just, like I said, not a great fit. I felt like I had died and gone to heaven. First of all, it is probably embarrassing and says something about me, I loved drug safety-- loved, loved, loved drugs-- it's like thinking like an epidemiologist, a clinician, a good physician.

You know, I love statistics and epi. I had gotten an MPH at Berkeley while I was an oncology fellow. And I just love analytics and inference and all of that stuff.

And so after a couple of months they had changed me-- they got a dispensation from the CEO so I could be a real employee. And I became the project team leader for Taxol, which was fantastic. It was such a great experience. I loved the colleagues at BMS. And we were making one of the first new oncology drugs in a while.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah, I think, if memory serves me correctly, that's about the time we first met.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Yes.

DAVE JOHNSON: And paclitaxel was being investigated in lung cancer. And that really is our connection. But those were heady times. We thought we were on top of the world.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Well, you know, it had been a while since there had been new active chemotherapies in oncology. And they were heady times. It was also just so interesting and hard to remember now how much the toxicity of paclitaxel had put it on the shelf, this hypersensitivity reactions and the collaboration with the National Cancer Institute.

There was a lot about the product development of paclitaxel that I remember and learn from. And I was just really grateful to be with Renzo Canetta and people like that, who it felt like going to UCSF where I thought, OK, Floyd Rector in nephrology. Now I get all these folks who I was using bleomycin and platinums. And they had written those package inserts.

DAVE JOHNSON: Yeah.

PAT LOEHRER: Yeah Bristol Myers basically owned oncology. I mean, all the products were going on there. And at that time, as you guys know, there's only one or two drugs a year that got approved for oncology. And today it is vastly different where each week there's a new drug or a new indication for oncology. The world has just changed tremendously.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Yes.

PAT LOEHRER: Yeah, it's been incredible. So Dave, where do you want to go next on this one?

DAVE JOHNSON: Well, I think one of the things that I think our listeners might want to learn about is Sue's transition to Genentech. I mean, it wasn't like the powerhouse organization it is today when you went there. I mean, not that it was a hole in the wall, but it wasn't the biomedical powerhouse that it is. What attracted you? I'd love to hear from you, what brought you to Genentech?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: So I would say three things. The first thing was Art and his ambition. And so Art--

DAVE JOHNSON: You might want to tell people who Art is.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: So Art Levinson, who then was the head of R&D and later became the CEO of Genentech, so Art Levinson worked in Mike Bishop's lab at UCSF. And so he, in many ways, showed up as a molecular oncologist as the head of R&D at Genentech. And his ambition was that Genentech would be an oncology company.

When I talked to Genentech, they had precisely zero oncology drugs. The furthest along was gamma interferon in their pipeline. So it didn't actually look very promising at the time. But Art was very compelling to talk to, and his dream.

The second thing was research. Bristol Myers Squibb was fantastic. But especially being in Connecticut, where you were sort of removed from the research enterprise, I saw BMS as fantastic clinical development organization and sales organization. They did a lot of licensing deals. That was their claim to fame was they were really good at licensing. And I respected that a lot.

But the ability to sit down with the research folks and think about what you would do with an anti-HER2 or an anti-VEGF-- and I just really respected Genetech's research capabilities and organization. And the third thing was we made the decision-- which wasn't an easy decision to make.

We had built a house in Connecticut. We were happy there. I don't know if you remember the winter of '94 was huge blizzards in Connecticut. Before we moved to Connecticut, I didn't even own a winter coat. So it was rough to experience winter in the Northeast. And my family was in Reno and San Francisco. And so moving back here was compelling.

PAT LOEHRER: Not the romance that you had in Christmas in Connecticut with Bing Crosby. It just wasn't the same, was it?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Well, I did love fall. I'll tell you, nothing like autumn in Connecticut. There's a lot to like about Connecticut. So it wasn't an easy move. But coming back West was a good thing.

DAVE JOHNSON: Well, what was the first really successful product that you worked on with Genentech? I should know, but I don't remember.

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: Oh, the first successful product that I worked on with Genentech was a collaboration with IDEC on Rituxan. And rituximab was really interesting because there's some real heroes at Genentech, including a business development guy, David Ebersman, who heard that maybe an antibody could work, even a chimeric antibody could work for lymphoma.

And so with Antonio Grillo-Lopez and the rest of the folks at IDEC, we got the first antibody approved in 1997. And that made a massive difference. I don't think people recognize how important rituximab was for trastuzumab, which was really only a year later-- less than a year later-- approved for HER2 positive breast cancer. But for me, that opened the era of antibodies and made people believe you could repetitively give a patient with cancer an antibody and they would tolerate it.

DAVE JOHNSON: How confident are you that would work?

SUSAN DESMOND-HELLMANN: I was very confident that rituximab would work. There was a lot of information. I wasn't sure we could make it. That required a lot of biotech manufacturing expertise that Genentech had, which was great. But I felt good about that. But there was a myth, at the time, that you could treat a liquid tumor, you could do heme, lymphoma or leukemia with an antibody. But there was this big worry you couldn't get into the tumor with a solid tumor. So I was not at all confident about Herceptin. Trastuzumab was not a give-me. But rituximab I was confident about.

PAT LOEHRER: This concludes part one 2-part interview with Dr. Susan Desmond-Hellmann. It was a wonderful discussion. In part 2, we'll talk a little bit more about Dr. Desmond-Hellmann's incredible leadership roles, including her time as chancellor at UCSF and the CEO of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Thank you to all our listeners for tuning into Oncology, Etc. an ASCO Education Podcast where we'll talk about anything and everything. If you have an idea for a topic or a guest you'd like to see on the show, please email us at education@asco.org. Thanks again. And just remember anything, because Dave doesn't.

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