And this week you're going to listen in on a conversation between myself, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and TJ Poon. We're all part of a project we've been working on together for over a year now. And, and as part of that project, we're exploring the Latinx experience in, in this time. And so what, what we're doing in this conversation is kind of fleshing out, like, what does it mean to have an intercultural conversation in with the primary lens of Latinx culture?
Rebecca Wheeler Walston:
Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts. Rebecca lives in Virginia, has completed Law School at UCLA, holds a Master’s in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister.
TJ Poon:
Danielle (00:12):
Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and healing. And this week, uh, you're going to listen in on a conversation between myself, uh, Rebecca Wheeler Walston, and TJ Poon. We're all part of a project we've been working on together for over a year now. And, and as part of that project, we're exploring the Latinx experience in, in this time. And so what, what we're doing in this conversation is kind of fleshing out, like, what does it mean to have an intercultural conversation in with the primary lens of Latinx culture?
Rebecca (00:52):
Right? It it reminds me what that, um, the, the, the, uh, Latinx woman who we saw this weekend. I don't know, I'm not sure I remember where she's from particularly, but how she was talking about how, like in Spanish, the, the wording is different. Therefore, what I interpret or what I metabolized right, is different. That was brilliant.
Danielle (01:18):
Mm-hmm. . Okay. I love what you just said, Rebecca. And then tj, I'd like you to hear your thoughts on this, but part of what I think I'm hoping for in saying this is a space for you to even come in and, and say, like, in the African H and American experience, here's where I resonate. Mm. But here's where I don't resonate if you don't resonate. So I, I think this wasn't outright said in the African American experience about the psychological lens, but I do think it was implied and it was there. And so I think this is a chance for us to collaborate and hopefully pull people together despite differences. So that's something I'm wondering about, but I I didn't wanna just throw that out there in the moment.
Rebecca (02:11):
What do you mean by a psychological lens?
Danielle (02:14):
Because in the Western European format, pretty much the only person of color I read, and the only person of color I read from a psychology standpoint was re men. Mm-hmm. , every single other person in literature was white, white female, white male philosophers, European philosophers here and there. Someone Spanish, but white. And what I'm saying is that European Americans don't own healing practices. And oftentimes what I've learned in the space of a psychological lens, I've found it in my community that has a far longer history and with different language. And, and so even when we talk about like alignment, I mean, doesn't that sound like Dan Siegel to you? Doesn't that sound like Shar to you? Yeah. But they aren't citing as techs and South American indigenous peoples. And I, I have no doubt that that is likely found in African American communities as well. And so I, I wanted to give the participants, at least La Latinx participants and hopefully bridge some gaps here and have people know, like, I'm not just stepping into a healing practice that is made by European white men. This is a, this healing practice. Actually, European white men, like a lot of things took it and they reworked it in their culture, which fine, but we also own part of that history. We own part of the way we heal. This is not original to it.
Rebecca (03:59):
That's the part where I feel like, again, like throwing an accusation that such, such as white is, um, among other things, it is problematic because unless you've done the research to, in what you're telling me is that the very origin of something that you're, you're discussing actually came out of European culture and only outta European culture, then the statement is just outright inaccurate, right? Mm-hmm. . And in some ways, you are actually perpetuating supremacy by, by, by perpetuating the, the lie that the thing we're talking about is, is unique to, to people of European or white folk. Right. Or however. Um, and so stop doing that. Right? Right. But, and so, so yeah. So you're asking me what is the African American equivalent to alignment, toka testimonial, and
Danielle (05:02):
Like trust.
Rebecca (05:03):
Yeah. You're asking me that?
Danielle (05:05):
Yeah. Cuz I mean, I don't know. But even in watching high on the hog mm-hmm. , and they're in this, they go to this one church setting, right? I don't know if you remember it. And it's like, got just the pillars left. And it was a, a place where they imagine one of the first quote unquote, first established African churches were in the south, and they talked about they had like, images of people dancing in that space mm-hmm. . And I was imagining that when I wrote this, things like that came to me as perhaps examples of heart to heart listening. Although it didn't look like, let's be honest, when Mexicans are hard to heart listening, we don't sit down. Mm. You know, we're moving around, we're talking, and, and we don't wait for you to finish your sentence necessarily.
Rebecca (06:00):
Right? So the thing I could say about that, the thing I would say about Plactica, right? Um, twice now, in the past week, I have had an older black woman say to me, I, I came to lay my eyes on you. What they expressly said was to put an eye on you and they point to one eye, right? And it's this sense that I need, I need to see you with my own eyes in order to discern or listen to what is happening in, in the space, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, so I think that, that, that might be the sense of heart to heart listening, right? Like, there's something that happens where, Right. That, that's a part of the alignment is I can read with my eyes the, the space, right? And then this thing about testimonial, what comes to my mind is that the phraseology keeping it real, right?
This idea that with there, like the story that is being told needs to be a true story. Mm-hmm. , we have lots of, you know, when you hear the snaps and all this, but the sense that something has resonated in my body with the sense of like, now what you just said is that that's the truth, right? Mm-hmm. and, and, and a problem. If that, if that's not what happens, right? To the point that is a compliment. Oh, he keeps it real. She keeps it real. He keeps it 100. Right? It's the basic sense that you're, you are telling, you're, you're saying the story that you're giving is the true word or trues version of what happened. Um, and probably for the last one, in terms of trust or confidence or inclusion, I, I, I would probably say, um, the, the sense when I be like, Oh, that's my girl and we're here. Right? That's, and again, with the eyes, it's something like these two things. If the first two things happen that leaves the door open for a sense of, there, there is a trust and a confidence in a sense that we are in alignment together. Right? Right. And, um, if one of those three things is not legit, then you are out. We are like, we not here. Mm-hmm. , Do you know what I'm saying? I, I mean that's very, uh, colloquial in the language, but I think the, the, the dynamic is true nonetheless.
Right? What's the version? And so there is a sense even that my whole body has to be engaged in the process for me to feel this kind of alignment. I need to see it, touch it, taste it, hear it. Like all of my senses need to be engaged before I feel like I could say, Right? And if I, if I don't have that, I don't know. I don't know you. Right? Like, I d know you like that.
Danielle (09:03):
Mm-hmm. , tj, any thoughts or anything to add or comments? Not yet that I'm enjoying this conversation. I think one thing I wanted to add for Za, like trust is something that happened at my daughter's Za. Now my fam, they're not my family, but I'm calling them my family. They all came and c and Corte, it's their, um, their daughter and their, and their son-in-law came, the son-in-law's white. He's, and he's, he's joined the family. And, uh, they're always telling me like, Hey, he didn't say hi to so and so, can you help him out? You know? So he didn didn't
Didn't speak. So, uh, that's a big thing, right? To say hi to everybody. I'm always saying, Hey, did you say hi to them? He's like, I think I did like brother, like, you better go do it again. They don't feel like you really sent high. He's like, I waved. I'm like, No. They wanna like, no, that
No. You gotta like shake your hand. And so they're giving, they're giving him hints, right? But they, they're keeping him. They're not, they're not, they're not pushing him out. And so at the point where the dancing was on and the dj, they requested a song and they're like, Sam, Sam, get out there and dance. And Sam was like, Okay. And it's this, it's this, basically it's this Mexican line dance. And he was right on it. He had the whole dance down and everybody cheered for him. They were like, You're in, you're in. And they were going nuts. And afterwards he was glowing. He was so happy. And it, it wasn't a sense of like, if he didn't do it right, he was gonna be ridiculed. It was just like, you're part of us, you know? Mm-hmm. . And so that's kinda what I think too about trust and inclusion, like the trust to share moments like that with someone, even in fun time times, you know? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Does that make sense?
Rebecca (11:03):
It makes perfect sense.
Danielle (11:05):
Mm-hmm. , I wish you could see this guideline dance.
Rebecca (11:08):
It makes perfect sense.
Danielle (11:11):
And by the way, Mexicans do a lot of line dancing and that's,
Rebecca (11:15):
I mean, you know, black people know a little bit, just a little bit, just a little bit about my, not that much, just a little bit .
Danielle (11:27):
Okay. So that feels like good. Um, TJ, can you hit the next slide, please? Yep. Um,
Rebecca (11:36):
I love that word edited.
Danielle (11:38):
Mm-hmm. . So I think we can talk about, if you're open to this, and TJ you can feel free to hop in here at any moment. Um, what does it mean to edit or fragment a Latinx story? It means to, there's many Asian identities which are subsumed. The African narrative is often edited out or, or almost like tried to blend in. Um, indigenous narratives are also pulled apart and, and edited out within our collective story. And so therefore we hang onto, I think it feels like if we tell those stories as a community, we won't be able to keep up. We'll be too separate. We won't be able to keep up with a dominant culture that will be too far apart to keep up. That make sense?
Rebecca (12:34):
No, you, you have to give it to me one more time. What's your sense of the, the, the, like, you feel like you can't keep up.
And I, I don't think you're being unclear. I think I can't hear you. So go, go ahead.
Danielle (12:51):
I think we'll be too divided and we're already divided out. We're already set apart as a community, especially in the United States. And it feels like something I've experienced is, if you further complicate my identity, if you ask me to further, Id like, if you ask me to further step into more marginalized, quote unquote marginalized identities, then not only will I be separated from what I need to survive, which feels like whiteness, I will also be further alienated in my community. Mm.
Rebecca (13:28):
So what, what's the part that you're, you're, I, I think I'm with you and I, and I feel like I can't hear, not cuz you're not being clear, but like that this is the part where the African American lens is really very, very strong. And so there's a part of me that's like, I, what? So, um, so, and I don't think it's, cuz you're not being clear, I think it's because when you're describing is a little bit foreign to, to the, to the African hyphen uh, um, hyphenated experience. So what, what are you saying? Are you, are you, what's the extra fragmented identity that you're saying you don't wanna step into? Like the, the, the, the thought of like Latin Latinx being a mix of like African and Asian and indigenous identity, it's that
Danielle (14:20):
Mm-hmm. that there's no space for Latinx. It feels like there's no space for Latinx in dominant culture as it is.
Rebecca (14:32):
Right?
Danielle (14:32):
And if then you have to say, Well actually I'm Chinese and Mexican, now, I'm, now I'm not just stepping further away from whiteness, but I'm also stepping outta my community. Cause that's, that's a learned, unacceptable way to identify.
Rebecca (14:51):
So, so here's my, here's my question about that. Cause it in some ways, okay, so I say African American, right? And we are so severed from our African-ness, I don't, I don't have the invitation to be like, Oh, I'm Ghanaian and you're Nigerian. And, and even if I knew that, I don't have a sense of what that means. I, I don't, I don't carry in my body a sense of like, that means we can't be friends because Nigerian and Ghanaians have this kind of thing in their history or whatever. I don't have that we're, we are so severed from it that there isn't any real way for us to, to go back. And in some ways we don't. I mean, there's a little bit of it, but nobody really, nobody's really, really, really truly, uh, deconstructing the African American identity that far down to the point that it would actually fracture us.
Um, so, so in on the one part, the part why I'm having a hard time hearing what you're saying is, is I'm, what I'm saying is that's far from my experience. Therefore it's far from my lens. Right? But also, here's the thing, I wonder, uh, in her book, Born on the Water, right, the author asserts that something happened in the, in the middle passage on the water of the Trans-Atlantic that actually forged a, a third a new people group that was neither African nor American, but somewhere in the middle. And that, and, and, and so by the time they, they step onto us shores it, it, like, she literally talks about what was many, when they entered the ship in terms of their tribes be like, is fused into one in this hyphenated existence. And by the time they get off the ship, it is, it is the creation of a new people group, which is, it's, it's mildly controversial, but not really.
Cuz nobody, even though, even though there's a whole sort of back to Africa and I wanna do the 23 and me thing and find out like what tribe from Ghana I came from, it, it isn't really about that kind of fracturing. Right? And, and so there wasn't people, there's something about what she said that resonates with people enough that you didn't hear any real pushback on, on that ideology. So I'm wondering Right. If I'm wondering about that, I'm wondering about that felt experience and lived reality and if the invitation, even in the loudness experience is to not, not not fracture it that much, Right? Is there some invitation in the text and in the lived experience that is about, we we're not going back to Eden. Mm-hmm. We, we like, we are pressing forward to, to the city of God. And when we get there, your, you will be able to hold and there's absolute invitation from Jesus to hold Mexican American
Right? In a way that would allow you to note the Asian ancestry and the African ancestry and whatever in the indigenous ancestry with all the honor and celebration it deserves, and not have that be a fracture.
Danielle (18:23):
Yeah. I don't think I'm seeing that as the fracture. I'm seeing the fracture coming when we don't acknowledge that yes, we're Mexican, but in Mexico there are 16 cast colors mm-hmm. . And a part of that has to do with how dark you are to how light you are to how your eyes look to how, how your nose looks. And, and I think we cannot forget that we are living into that cast system as a people group. And so I think part of the editing is we, we've edited that out. Like, oh yeah, we're all Mexican, but when you get into our families
Rebecca (19:12):
It, it ain't that.
It ain't that. No, there's a hierarchy.
So is not in, in the going towards it. It's, it's the, the fracture is that being in America in the hyphenated existence right. Is there's perhaps an invitation to edit out some, some of the other parts of your culture. And I think that's true across the whole cohort. I think everybody feels that. I think I, I think it's, it's why even though they have con consistently asked us to get into interethnic conflict, it feels really hard to do it right because, uh, and not just conflict between like blacks and Latinos or Asians, whoever, but conflict like within our own culture. Cause black people got colorism too. It's bad.
It's real bad.
Danielle (20:10):
Yeah. Tj, any thoughts or comments?
TJ (20:14):
Nope. I had a lot of thoughts while we're talking, but I feel like just moving along, it's good.
No, I totally do. Yeah. I have lots of thoughts, but I don't Yeah. Helpful to say. Right.
It's a good point. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a, the lot of like, um,
If, if, uh, only claiming one identity is also your sort of like, ticket to solidarity or like what you build solidarity around, it is very hard to enter into those other more marginalized identities. I, I mean, I think about that for Asian Americans too, Like how even Asian American is like a term that was made up, but, but part of like, the real benefit of it was solidarity, you know, like becoming a group when this wasn't really a group. And so just there that there's, uh, there's a lot of beauty in that and also a lot of like real messed up step in that. And so like if you, if you are, if you have an identity around which there is some solidarity, like we can rally around, you know, this, um, in a place where we're already marginal, already marginalized. Mm. Yeah. I don't know what your motivation for further marginalizing yourself. Do you know what I mean? Cause like you Yeah. So I think that's complex.
Danielle (21:55):
Yeah. You said that really well, tj mm-hmm. .
Rebecca (22:00):
I I think it reads different too in, in different communities. Like, but African American, it is, is a term of respect. And it, and it's also a notation that you are an outsider cuz we don't call each other that mm-hmm. , you know what I mean? So, and, and to me, whenever I say like Asian American, I feel stupid. Like I feel like I'm, I'm entering into the conversation in a way that is unintelligent because I, I, I think it's a dishonor to, to slap that name when what I really wanna know is what country are you from and is it better for me to identify you as Japanese American or Chinese American or Taiwanese than it is for me to say Asian American. You know what I mean? Like, I, I just feel the awkwardness of how's this gonna read again, I think because I'm aware none of these are self named monikers. Mm-hmm. , they're all imposed, but, um, by whiteness. And so it always feels awkward.
Danielle (23:09):
And I mean the additional con conversation for Latinx, even Latinx, I hate that word, but even the additional conversation is how have people of all these various backgrounds had to rally together to fight western intervention in their cities, in their countries, you know? Mm-hmm. . So they have to rally around that. But even that gets confusing because with the infusion of like money and power from the United States or other outside interests, it even splits. It splits people even more. But I think when people get to the United States, they say stuff like, I'm Cuban, you know, or I'm Mexican. There's not, there's a way of surviving in that.
Rebecca (23:56):
Right. Plus what do you do with the cause like where I grew up, if you are Puerto Rican on the west coast, that made you Mexican, but if you're Puerto Rican on the east coast, you are black. Like end of story, end of conversation. And so even, even that is like Yeah. Like all, yeah. All the, all those lines, it is different.
Danielle (24:26):
Yeah. So we'll we can step into that, you know, hopefully a little bit more brief cuz we'll probably run out of time. But
TJ (24:35):
Like, I walked with my friend when she was, she's Mexican American, but she's also white and she was like, you know, wrestling through how do I identify myself and when these are the categories, it's really hard to like, I don't know, it just that multifaceted identity thing. How do you talk about racialization as like a part of that, um, when the categories are oppressed and oppressor and you pull both of those in your identity. So I don't know, but those were just thinking about that.
Danielle (25:13):
I think when I hear you, I think back to what Derek McNeil said to me, that we live in a racialized society and addressing race will take us so far, but it's really our, and it has a limit, but it's really being in our cultures is where we will find healing from the actual trauma. So I, I go back to that a lot and that's why I think it's really important for you and I Rebecca, to talk about, you know, when we talk about the first, like the plaquea and the testimonial on for us to root ourselves in some somewhat of culture in the healing. So
Rebecca (25:50):
No, it's, it, it, yeah. I mean, I think in some ways we've been asserting that the, the, this whole time, right? This idea that like if you're black, you need lean fully in into that and fully into the ways in which your culture, that culture has made you, made, made pathways towards healing for you mm-hmm. , right? In the way that your culture has understood and made meaning out of your story. Um, and, and, and therefore created avenues of, of, of, of, of healing for you. Right? In, in a sense, you're asking what archetypes right? Ha has, has your culture creative for you. Um, and, and, and, and that the more that we do that, the less dissonance we have, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, and in some ways the very creation of sort of the identity of the oppressed, right? Is the, the, the, the very identity that gets created under the force and weight of oppression is that is what healing looks like, right? I mean that, like, the meaning that gets made out of the identity of the hyphenated existence is to define the harm and then define what it looks like to be healed from it
in a way that is unique to the story that you have, Right? And then the truth is the same is true for the majority culture, right? I mean, and the, and the work that will have to be done on behalf of our white brothers and sisters is what does it look like to tell a true story and what does healing look like?
, right? And, and I think the, the pitfall is if the invitation outta majority culture is to not tell the true story, if the invitation out of the perpetrator culture is to be dismissive and to live in a level of denial for what the true story is, you never get to those pathways or architects of healing because you, you can't admit that harm has actually been done.
Is resiliency, Right? It is the God given capacity to navigate the harm that is embedded in your story. Right? And, and it is this sense that Jesus knew in this world you will have trouble. Like, like it's, it's, it trauma is going to hit you. Right? But, but I have embedded in, in, in, in your collective story at a sense of what healing looks like and redemption looks like for you, Right? And, and, and resiliency is your, is really in some ways the capacity to tap into that mm-hmm. and to leverage it
Danielle (28:37):
Mm-hmm. . So if you hit the next slide, um, tj, then we have this polyvagal chart, which I think says like our different cultures allow us to be in these different states and, and kind of like what we've talked about before, and that's not wrong. And, and I think, I think what's hard about this is that some of our resiliency has been pathologized.
Rebecca (29:06):
Yes. Very much so. Right? And the, the simple argument that, uh, because our, our whatever reaction we took in the moment was in fact a reaction to something traumatic is the thing that pathologizes it, right? And, and I, I think that's a mistake. It's like to say that we were kicked out of the garden and because of that, we built, we built a response to that severing that the response itself is pathological. Because our goal is to be back where we were in the garden before sin it, that that's not how the story go. That's not how it works, right? I mean, yes, we were excised from the garden, right? And what's pathological is that she ate the damn apple when God said don't do it. That that part is a problem. But, but, but, but the capacity that we developed to live life outside of the garden is not itself pathological simply because it is in reaction to the fact that we no longer live in the garden, Right?
That, like, there will be a reaction and there's good reaction and healthy reaction that it, that is in fact resiliency. And then there are other reactions that are pathological that are problematic and that we do need to address, right? Mm-hmm. . But the simple fact that something is a reaction to a traumatic event does not itself pathologizing mm-hmm. , Right? And this is the part where I, I, I, tide tribute has a strong, um, and there's a line in the song where he says, um, something of like, the devil's gonna wish he never messed with me because I, like, I came back stronger and better than I would if, if he would've left me alone in the first place. Right? And so there, there's, there's something I think we're missing in the theological frame that that is like, um, the, there's something that happens in the meant for evil. God moves for good, there's something in whatever that switch is that rotation, that flip that is of significant value mm-hmm.
, Right? And if we simply pathologize it because it is a reaction to a move of evil, we have missed the, like, the mystery of God in that moment to take a thing that was meant to be our downfall and not only cause us to survive it, but to, but it is that thing that actually makes us better, stronger, more like him, Right? And so, so that in and of itself is good. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. . And so there's something of the ability to move up and down this chart that is, that is freaking brilliant
Danielle (31:57):
Mm-hmm. . So, so I think I wanna go back to that story in Genesis. And when, you know, they ate the apple and then God came walking through, He, he asked them where they were, and through the conversation he says to them, you know, he finds out that they ate this apple and that that's why they were, you know, wearing, had sewed these fig leaves and made this, this, um, made these like coverings, right? I'm assuming for their body. But that's not, they weren't in trouble for their shame about their body. You know, that's not why he, he kicked them out of Eden. It was for what they did. And then actually when they were out of Eden, he honored that shame. He made them close out of animals. So God actually didn't take them, didn't take their shame and move them through this polyvagal chart and force them to be calm in their body in a certain way.
TJ (32:58):
I think that's a really important thing to say. Mm-hmm. .
Rebecca (33:04):
Right? And, and I think there's also a sense in which
That what, what you're, what that means then is that something was fundamentally altered in Adam and Eve and they never got to go back to the state in which they were in Eden as if it had never happened. Right? And, and I, and I think there's something about the gospel that is, um, that that isn't what, that's not what you're meant for, right? There's a kind of naivete before she eats the apple. Mm-hmm. Right? That we, we don't get to go back to mm-hmm. . And, and there might be some loss there, right. Of, of, of innocence, Right. But there's also something to be gained in the process of having God honor the shame and re reshape it and reimagine it for us. Right? And, and it, um, there's a quote on my Facebook page, something of like, uh, um, a gratitude that I have for my struggle because in it, I stumbled across my own strength mm-hmm.
. And, and so there's something, I think I, there's something that we gain in the wrestling and the struggling and the coming out in a place of God honoring where we've been, including the shame that we have felt that that, so you don't ever really get to go back home again, right? Like, you never get to go back to life before the apple, but you do know the grief of having ate the apple, the agony of having eaten the apple and the sweetness of God having restored your relationship to him even after you ate the apple. Right? That, and so there's a different depth to your relationship with Jesus, right? Mm-hmm. , I mean, I think we could feel it in our own marriages even, right? Like it sucked when we fight, but there, but there's something sweet about, about when you get to that place of like, I'm married to a guy in in with whom I can totally blow it. Like, totally blow it. Mm-hmm. and, and, and, and this relationship can hold that.
Danielle (35:20):
And, and I think I wanna make a like a further point. It's not that they didn't eat meat after this, but God sent Adam to do what was closest to him, which was till the earth because he had made Adam from the Earth, it says that mm-hmm. , he didn't send him to a place of then further shame where he had been caring for animals and implied, now you have to herd these animals. Like I think there's something special in that
Rebecca (35:47):
That was his job to begin with before Yeah. Before the apple, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so there's a sense of it being restored in some capacity.
Danielle (35:56):
Uh-huh and he literally put chair bins up there, they were never getting back in.
Rebecca (36:02):
Right? You Right, right. And, and that yes, there's some loss, but that doesn't mean that the progression forward does not bring like a corresponding sweetness that might even overpower the, the sense of loss.
Danielle (36:18):
And so I think that really fits with the clip from, um, from Incanto because they're not going back to that first city in that town and
TJ (36:34):
Uh, I think, I think it's, I, yeah, I'm having a lot of thoughts, but I just, I think pointing out that God treats their responses with compassion, cuz I don't think that's how we treat our own reactions. You know? Um, and my, my friend has gone off into this, like, she got in trouble on, um, for her take of like all, all coping is adaptive. Like she's trying to come against this like maladaptive coping label. And she's not saying that there aren't he versions of coping, but that we cope however we can. And then when we're able to cope better, we trade those coping mechanisms for ones that are healthier. And I think, I don't know, I I I'm not qualified to weigh in on that, but I think the point of treating ourselves with compassion, because when you see this chart, at least me, I'm like, well, how, how can I just get to the rest, like to the, you know, how can I move myself through? Um, because all other responses are bad when that's not what, that's not even how God treated Adam and e like, I think that's really important to say. Cause I don't think that's our default response is to like treat our reactions with compassion. And I don't think they change unless you can hold them with compassion.
Rebecca (37:54):
I would actually argue that our, our body's capacity to move along this chart is, is God, is God given. Right. Right. And there, there's a very appropriate time and a place for fear for, for anything that's on here. Right. Um, I I think, uh, I I don't even think you could argue that we're meant to live in this place of perpetual rest.
Jesus is like on day seven, hollered me about rest. Right. But until then, like, you know, so are we right? I I I think like our capacity to move through these things is, is God given in the first place, Right? And some of the ness that we might feel is when there's not a sense of b balance or a sense of home, you know, like of the fluid sort of homeostasis of being able to read a situation and move with agility between the, these phases, right? Um,
Danielle (39:00):
Or the way perhaps our cultures have been pathologized for staying in different places in this right cycle. And therefore as a practitioner working in a cross-cultural environment, we have to come in with an attitude of first alignment and then willingness to be curious and receive, you know what Ernest said, that customizability
Rebecca (39:24):
Right? Right. That plus I think, like I said, I think there's a time and a place for every single thing on here. So some of the pathologizing of communities of color is like, sometimes vigilance is not hyper vigilance, sometimes it's just situationally appropriate vigilance. Right. And, and the problem is that the majority culture is isn't paying attention to the power dynamics in the room. So they are misreading the need for vigilance in the room. Right. And so, and so then I'm not actually in this pathological space of hypervigilance, Right? I'm not in this space of PTSD where I'm actually not on the battlefield. And so my vigilance doesn't make any sense. I actually am, and my body is rightfully reading some sense of threat in the room. The problem is that in your not reading the room, well as you know, as, as a member of the culture that happens to be in power in that moment, you, you're, you're, you're not, you're not being honest about what the dynamics in the room really are. So you miss it. Mm-hmm. , and then you, you know Right. In a way that was like accusatory, like, like you're not, you're not doing the work because you're not, you're doing this and, and that's not necessary. You know what I mean? So Yeah.
Danielle (40:49):
So I wonder if it'd be possible to even name during this section, and we're talking about Adam and Eve, that when you're the other, like as a culture that's stepping into this experience, that it's possible you may be going up and down this chart, like what is Danielle gonna say? Mm-hmm. , what is Rebecca gonna say? What will happen in this moment mm-hmm. and, and to, for us to honor those bodily experiences. And maybe, you know, how we did with Jenny just slow down and ask mm-hmm. . Cause I will be going up and down this chart during the talk because, you know, there's performance pressure. There's the idea of I wanna honor my culture. There's the idea of how do I interpret myself. So I think it's fair to name that.
Rebecca (41:42):
Yeah. And that there are really good reasons why Right. That that, you know, and, and how do you step into a sense of self evaluation about how much, what, where's the line for me between like, this is a, a resilient response that I need to honor and where there are places where there's some hypervigilance, right? I mean, not that you wouldn't honor all of it, but to help them start to understand like there, there are resilient reactions and then there are reactions that are more about like being resigned to, to the weight of our collective stories. Right. And the, the text doesn't ask us to be resigned. Right? Right. It, it, it ask us, uh, to, to fight and to persevere, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and to press on towards the mark.
Danielle (42:33):
And in fact that's where, you know, that's where we can come back to like, God didn't ask Adam to get on with it to like stay naked. Right. And he didn't even call it out as a problem. He's just like, Here man, here's some nicer clothes.
Rebecca (42:53):
Right. And right. And, and you can almost hear in that a sense of like, like Eden is where you started, but it isn't where you're gonna end up. And, and and, and there is a journey that we will be on together. Right. And so like, there's some things you're gonna need for the journey, including some clothes, right? Not, not, not, I mean, Yeah. Yeah. And, and if we really truly believe that God is omni mission and he knew from the beginning and therefore the apple and the fall not, did not surprise him and that he always had a plan for Right. Jesus was always in the work mm-hmm.
And that he always meant for us to end up in Revelation 79 knowing what it would cost us to land it there through that pathway. Right. Then going back to Eden before the fall was, was is not how we're supposed to play this game.
Yes. And also, uh, it maybe took us the struggle of the past year to figure out this is the talk.
Cause there's something really inviting about Eden is what you're meant for. Like, it's not like that doesn't resonate and it isn't like it isn't true. Right. I mean, it is true that we, we were meant for the splendor of Eden. Right. But it's also true that the game changed.
And, and, and then now we're meant for something actually sweeter and richer with more depth than Eden.
Danielle (44:51):
Mm. That makes me wanna cry. Cause it feels hopeful compared to what I have felt, you know?
Rebecca (44:59):
Like where it meant for the sense of greater, is he Right? I mean, where it meant for the sense of, and we shall overcome and the only way you get there is cuz there was something you had to overcome. Right. There's the, the like something went gravely wrong in Eden that put an obstacle in your way.
Right? And so I think we have, right? Yeah.
Danielle (45:25):
TJ what are you thinking?
TJ (45:28):
Uh, I'm thinking about redemption for white people. Like what, what, you know, which is not the focus of this conversation. That's where my,
Danielle (45:37):
But I think it is actually part of the focus cuz I think we're all too, but you are white and, and you're in white skin, but you're also not white.
TJ (45:45):
Yeah, I know. Yeah. I, Yep. Super aware. And I, and I think that is like, just as you guys have been talking throughout the few weeks until, until more recently where I just am like, it's, it's like anything that you banish from the table has a lot of power
Yeah. And yeah. So even though we're like not gonna devote any of our conversation to this part over here, which is an intentional choice, that actually necessarily means that it's exerting a lot of power over us. Um, so I don't know. I just was thinking about that, like what there is a movement to specific cultures. There's um, there's a recovery work and, and it's something that we're all doing, We're doing it in different ways. Sometimes we're doing it in different spaces, but we are doing it
Rebecca (46:51):
Absent a frame around whiteness white people. And, and the redemption of that story, you, you, you can't in order to have a complete picture of God mm-hmm. and, and, um, and so they treat that as a sacred moment of curiosity around what is it that this culture knows about God that we do not mm-hmm. what parts of him are translated that we don't have words for mm-hmm. . Um, and it made me, it, when he told me that, it reminded me of you, it reminded me of us having some conversations that there's not a word in Spanish for resiliency mm-hmm. . Right. And so I just, yeah. I mean like that sense of like, there are ways that you will see it as a Latinx woman that will go right past my head as a black woman and, and if I'm wise, I will slow down and sit in that moment with you and be like, what do you know that I don't?
How has God shown up in your culture in ways that he hasn't shown up in mind?
Danielle (48:06):
Well, I think it's gonna be good. Thanks for recording this, tj. And
Yeah. And I know you gotta go.
TJ (48:15):
I do. But I appreciate you both. I respect you both. It's been really fun to work with you.
Danielle (48:23):
I'm glad we got into it because now I I, it, I think we were feeling our way around which, which part of the text gives us this. And I feel like we kind of just felt our way into that, you know? Mm. So that feels good to me, you know?
Yeah. Okay. Bye.
Rebecca (48:45):
You. Thank you.
TJ (48:46):
Thank you
