impulsive

Why is it that I have 1000 planners/calendars/whiteboards and still forget stuff all the time? It’s not you, it’s them: they don’t ask you to attend to them, they are passive things that don’t ask you to attend to them. David and Isabelle dig into why voice assistants (like Amazon’s Alexa, Google Assistant, Apple’s Siri) are a potentially useful neurodivergent accommodation strategy—and no judgment if you value your privacy above the outsourcing your working memory. Covering visual timers, what to avoid if you’re setting up a reminder program, and the power of a slow clap.  

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Isabelle does not like to be scheduling, she likes to have scheduled. She does not like to holiday, she likes to have had a holiday season. During the recent holiday break, it was a structureless day, the kids were home, Bobby was working, and Isabelle was in one room all day, and realized how much of her executive functioning short circuited, and also how much her memory is reliant upon changing rooms, and sequences of physical actions, all of which were missing because everyone was on break and out of routine. So she found a cheap system for a voice assistant. And it has been game changing for her family. It doesn't have to live inside her head, the routines, the rhythms. There is an external nag doing the nagging for her and the rest of the family. She wonders why all her planners and lists and things don’t do it but this voice assistant does? David explains that it’s because it comes to you, you don’t have to go to it to get the information. Unless it exploded or fired out papers into the world, you have to attend to it to be reminded. It’s a partner in executive functioning. Instead of having to outsource it to your partner so much. You can program skills, sequences of actions, routines, etc. Kids are learning a whole sequence but I don’t have to teach them all the time. A lot of people ask us for parenting help, and we can talk about all the strategies to do to change behavior. The most important thing you can do is notice when they’re doing something good. When it tells them to do the thing, and they do this thing, you get to come in and celebrate them and notice it. This is a big gift it has given Isabelle and her family: instead of interacting around a stress point, and we get frustrated with the system instead of with each other.  You can program it to applaud, and it has a feature where you get it to slow clap, and Isabelle names they  have a legit slow clap in the house, and the kids love it. What you’re seeing is why this works, it is a legit intervention. Those kinds of systems are not always helpful for people. Isabelle learned the hard way that it was left on storytelling for too long and wild and they had to wrangle in a more soothing bedtime routine. But as David reminds us, if you’re not listening to it as it reminds you, you will learn to never listen to it. Same as with a visual timer, you have to keep yourself to it, because otherwise you are learning to ignore. Isabelle has a certain feature where she has to answer a question to a reminder, the beeping doesn’t go away unless you interact with it. Also, setting up timers with music, setting environmental cues through music and setting up an ambience with parts of their routine. David never uses timers, because he only uses them when it’s go-time. He’s a person who really values privacy. It’s an emotional battle, unless you’ve gone through the options to change your phone settings, they are listening to it. The different options are essentially a whiteboard that speaks to you, a diary that buzzes after you, a friend that doesn’t forget—you do have those resources if you don’t have this device. This is also so you know you can find options that aren’t digital—but be careful of overly depending on people, because dependency breeds aggression, and that is one of the things about these robot overlords, are you can be as dependent as you want on them and be as aggressive as you want to be and it doesn’t hurt a person. When kids get frustrated with it, or I get frustrated with it, it’s happening to an object rather than to yourself, or someone else. Isabelle casts no judgment on those who choose privacy over these devices, because she tried one out a few years back and she was very much against it, it felt creepy to her. She didn’t really explore it or work with it. The thing that changed her minds was the realization of how much of the working memory and routine and reminders this offloads, the difference is it’s not on her to remember. So she’s like “go ahead and sell me all the dog food, because it's worth it.” David is a good person, he’s not worried about the things it finds out about me…so it would sell me the fruit leather? But it might be so clever it would question if David really wants 4 cases of 500 of them. So David decides he would NEVER get one because he doesn’t.

What is Bluey? 

Isabelle notes: Brace yourself, this show is powerful and not just for kids/parents/caregivers of kids. 7 minute episodes with brilliant writing and solid visuals all teaching you how to be a human modeled by cartoon dogs. Special ND note: Many fans argue that the shows titular character is a ND tribe member (I welcome her with open arms); there is more overt mention in the episode “Army," which features a character named Jack (who continues on in the show) who many argue represents a neurodivergent kid—to watch him find connection and confidence is pretty incredible....OH THE FEELS.
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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to Bluey. Best show that sums up real life for kids (and grownups) with humor, compassion, and just plain brilliance. Watch “Flat Pack.”

Isabelle struggles with the idea of doing 'little yucks' because her to-do list is endless, she never stops, and the demands on her feel endless--how can you even think about what you need or stop to rest without feeling guilty/lost/overwhelmed with unstructured time? David counters with a behavioral truth bomb: the power of knowing your establishing operation. What levers did the environment around you press?

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Isabelle wonders whether she even knows what a little yuck is; she turns everything else in to a big yuck, or a bunch of ‘to-do’s’ — for David, a little yuck helps the larger household, but the timing and the coping of it is just for you. Like doing the dishes so he can prep for a speech, or laundry (even though he had just done laundry) because he wants the option to wear a certain pair of pants. The same energy level existed, it was not on today’s to-do list, and he just did it to keep moving his hands. Isabelle is suffering from a blindspot here: she doesn’t really permit herself to do a little yuck, then return to something you enjoy…but she doesn’t have a to-do list anymore? That feels impossible, she doesn’t know how to not to-do list. David describes how he doesn’t have a written to-do list, it’s connected to a day off physical routine and he calls a friend and then goes for it. But for his to-do list on his day off, when he didn’t have a bunch of things he had to do. He held back from going off the rails and doing too much, he actually held back and stuck to his easy-level plans. Isabelle describes how she does not like to cook or bake, but if she can do it at her leisure, then she enjoys it. She embraces doing it without pressure and she doesn’t feel the chore of it. But the load of things she has to do feels endless, she has never carved out the time where there is nothing for her to do…she doesn’t have the experience of time where something is not expected of her, or she doesn’t expect it of herself. David’s boat is privileged in that he doesn’t have kids and he is not a super person. He is very aware of how much time is taken from someone around childcare, he sees parents doing everything, and doing everything you need or everything your child needs, you can’t really do both. The messages from society is “you’re not allowed to take care of you,” or “you’re supposed to take care of other people.” This feels more like a “mom” thing than a “dad” thing—but it's not accurate. When we’re talking about trying to find the little yuck in Isabelle’s life, the equation is different. For Isabelle, in her world, there are several agents of chaos that enter and are rerouted to priority, and there’s never a moment where she can’t be interrupted or distracted from whatever is happening. There isn’t enough time to feel the thought “I have a lot of energy and there’s nowhere for it to go.” She thinks of a meme she saw where a woman ushers her family out the door. And she finally has time to herself; does she sit and stare at a wall or does she panic clean? Isabelle really struggles with making a decision with what to do with her time when she doesn’t have the constant demands, the volley of little yucks stops, but then why does she choose a little yuck? David goes really complicated, with this thing called an establishing operation.  The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water; the rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water, but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the reinforcer. So the yuck meter for Isabelle is totally blown out. So you have to take into account what is the establishing operation for her—and it might be that what do you do to make this time guilt-free or how you set it up to make it yours. What can you do so you don’t feel bad for watching 3 hours when everyone gets home? That really rings a bell for Isabelle; it really connects for her around the challenge of what it means, to even sit down. She really doesn't ever sit down. She recovered from a fractured pelvis because she didn't sit enough. This means changing her relationship to resting or hitting the pause button and carving out the unique, new structure, when she is on her own, or has a lot of energy, or has the agency and privilege to exercise it. She has to change her establishing operation. David names that you have to give yourself the real reinforcement that you need, and not trick yourself into doing chores (that would normally ‘reward’ you with a different set up).  Isabelle names that recent training with Hallowell and Ratey (see ADHD 2.0 book link below) is that rumination neural network in the brain is designed for creating problems, and another neural network runs when you’re not doing anything, and another neural network is task positive (you’re trying to do the thing). Now with neurotypical folx, you can flip a switch and go from one mode to another—you can choose! Like what a lot of therapy models use. But if you’re neurodivergent, the environment is what presses the levers, otherwise they’re all going at the same time. Isabelle recognized that the rumination network is always running, and how something about how she can’t switch the levers has to do with the fact that her environment for rest is not different from her environment for everything else (her home). She really needs external cue to signal to her that the thing you think you’re working with is different; she needs a solid external boundary to help with this. She needs to know when they take the water away. Otherwise she’ll keep working and not attend to herself. And she doesn’t know it changed. The rules don’t work anymore, it's not “you,” —maybe it’s everything else? Or is it maybelline?

“Maybe she’s born with it, maybe it’s maybelline.” (Commercial from the 90's: brace yourselves, this is so 90's it's almost unbearable).

Huberman lab episode on little yucks — he calls them “Micro sucks” 

DEFINITIONS

Body Doubling: Someone else in the same room or within view of the person who is trying to get a task done—the other person doing the task creates the illusion of structure. In essence, a buddy is sits with you as you work on something (could be doing a task, or just quietly there, maybe giving you cues or reminders). In reference to in films, this term is used to describe a body double, or a stand in for lead actors in certain shots. Here are some basic ideas.

Establishing operation (EO): Depriving or altering the access to something to make it more enticing and rewarding. The behavioral word for how a little rat, trained to run a maze, is rewarded by a drop of water, and rat loves the water and does lots of work for the water...but rats don’t naturally love water this much. So the establishing operation is to withhold water from the rat for 24 hours first: the establishing operation changes the reinforcement of the water, makes it more enticing and more 'rewarding' for the rat.

Reiserfeiber - “Literally translated, Reisefieber means “travel fever” – but it’s not the type of sickness that keeps you ...

Isabelle and David catch up and grapple with those moments when you have a ton of energy or anxiety or excitement, and you tackle way more and up the difficulty on your video game of life, instead of going for an easy win. The way we tend to think more is better when it comes to interventions or accommodations when actually it’s the little stuff. The power of the little yuck, and also the way we buy 4 cases of fruit leather and only later consider where we will store them.
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David is sharing how time doesn’t make sense (5 minutes v. 299 seconds=2 different things). Isabelle names how she tries to operate this way all the time or much of the time, remembering all this Team Shiny stuff, but it really is such a hard thing to acknowledge that her working memory is as poor as it is. Whaddayamean nobody moved the keys? (except past her, who forgot she moved the keys?) She gets so angry at herself, maybe now that she knows more about ADHD/attentional variability/ND — she is kinder to herself faster, but she also gets angrier. David names that anger is a path toward adaptive humor—“are you kidding me?” Can turn into a laugh moment or it can turn into berating yourself more. David had a beautiful ADHD moment. David has a bonus at his job, and what does he do with a bonus? Is it a vacation? A box of chocolates? A piece of furniture? Video game? The rule that we have is that anything labelled like this is getting a treat. Bonus or treat yo’self. David decides he’s going to get the best fruit leather than exists, and he decides to order it. First thought: This is excellent, this is funny. Second thought: I can’t wait to tell everyone about this, this is so cool. Third thought: Wait a minute—how much space does this much fruit leather take up? Fourth thought: Does it go bad? Fifth thought: Does it need to be refrigerated? My cats won’t get into it….What did I just do to myself? He is excited and terrified about much fruit leather. He minimizes his impulsivity. What shipping option did he pick? No idea. It doesn’t say what kind of shipping. It reminds Isabelle of how fascinated she is by a ‘lifetime supply’ prize of things: how much is a lifetime supply? Like a steady supply? All at once? How much did you buy exactly…are we talking, pounds? David got 4 cases, so he could pick the flavors. Isabelle-that might be an elementary school’s summer camp order. She thinks you could polish this off, using her kids as a baseline. Will he keep enjoying fruit leather 100 fruit leathers in? David knows that we don’t enjoy the next bite as much as the first, it does wear off. He’s not going to Golem them, he’s going to share the fruit leathers. The last time he had this thought, it happened with Jordan almonds. But they also break people’s teeth and not everyone likes them. Isabelle is delighted because every Polish baby shower and wedding shower, and it was just little baggies of them.  Isabelle throws in three fun food facts: frying food is originally to preserve the food without the refrigeration, so fried food, it keeps longer. When you coat something in sugar, or in a salt, it keeps longer. Isabelle also thinks about learning what is the first thing to put on a cut? David responds…not hydrogen peroxide or alcohol, and Isabelle learned that doing that messes with the skin barrier because you scrub away all the good stuff, its then more likely to get infected. Which is shocking, because you'd think more is better. David *names that that’s why soap works: it’s the bubbles! And the friction! That makes soap work. THIS MORE IS BETTER is something we see in clinical work all the time. People throw in so many ADHD interventions, and it fails, and actually…less is more. Like simple things, like where you put your phone at night. Isabelle’s metaphor of late is the idea that we often do all or nothing, but we get bored with playing the video game at easy, and instead of upping the difficulty to medium, we think we have to make it extremely hard, and then you die right away, and you get extremely frustrated and then you quit the game. Here’s Isabelle’s boring task: she needs to go through the kids clothes. What does she do, she then signs up for three consignment sales and figure out delivery dates, and then it raises the anti, and it makes her feel like she’s doing something, but she overwhelms her stimulus load, and then passes her sweet spot so darn fast. David names that easy level on this game is just collecting clothes and putting them in one spot. Medium is putting them into a sort. And super hard level is taking them there and not having them in their house. David notices that people don’t even see the easy options. And then Isabelle also opened three other games, to play at the same time. The more games we’re playing, the harder it is to get into a rhythm. All the interventions he knows are habits and rhythms. David doesn’t really know how to distinguish anxiety or excitement, he’s getting all excited for a party, and the settings all got to difficult. There was no easy option; everything started on difficult. Only parallel is like when you’re about to go to Disney World, everything is set to excited and anxious and difficult. And so he just started doing easy wins; normally he takes that energy and just does way too much. So he did a lot of small little things, he listened to a book and did the dishes. The weirdest thing is he actually thought he could do this, and have all this stuff get done. Part of him was surrendering to an easy mode; he didn’t think of all the things he could accomplish, but rather…what to do with this energy so future Dave will not be mad at him. Isabelle very slowly processes this. Is it like having a big to do list, but actually those things are very difficult things, very little movement, lots of executive functioning. But the awareness of “I have a ton of energy,” the practice of where is your thermostat is living; feels difficult anyway, and then where can I put this so future me is not mad at me, is like body doubling yourself. Both Isabelle and David geek out about Huberman Lab and wanting to hang out with Andrew Huberman in an encapsulated experience, how important it is for our brains to experience little yucks. Doing little sucky things throughout the day creates more good things in a day. The variation of experiences is what helps you feel good, feel the peaks of goodness. Imagine doing exactly what you want to do for 10 hours, Isabelle feels like a piece of poop—but you were getting what you wanted, but instead there’s the sneaking suspicion of impending guilt, or this isn’t how it goes in this game of life. We need the variation in order to actually feel the highs. Like imagine you took breaks and did little yucks throughout the day, and then return to your phone, you have a better day. If you have anxious or excited energy, what are the little yucks I can do with this energy while I am self-medicated (through the anxiety and excitement to do so)? Isabelle thinks about “reiserfieber”, which is a German term for exactly how you feel before a big trip. This is how Isabelle functions this way during nap time, it’s the little yucks. Or the contrast of dropping the kids off at school after 6 snow days; the contrast is what makes you appreciate things. Also pandemic shut down flashbacks. But no, David names, that’s a big yuck. This is actually about little yucsk. It’s something that’s small and not future-oriented, just asking yourself: I have energy and 10 minutes…what’s a little yuck I can do? And keep it easy. On purpose.

Where are my fellow control freaks? 

Such an interesting and way more helpful perspective to rethink and redefine perfectionism. You know when you read a book and it’s so groundbreaking and helpful, you can’t help but tell all your friends, post about it? Well, I was the recipient of essentially being attacked on all sides that I needed to read this award-winning book, The Perfectionists’ Guide to Losing Control by Katherine Morgan Schafler. Katherine is a seasoned psychotherapist and former in-house therapist for Google, with a BA in psychology from Berkeley and 2 masters from Columbia University and I’ve got her incredibly refreshing and game-changing approach broken down today. We talk about self-punishment vs. discipline. We talk about adaptive and maladaptive perfectionism and why restoration and resting feels like failure to perfectionists - and my favorite, control vs. power. I really am super excited for you to hear it and can't wait to hear what type of perfectionist are you!

Timestamps:

• [00:10:01] Redefining Perfectionism
• [00:13:14] Gender bias in language.
• [00:17:22] Perfectionism and power seeking.
• [00:23:10] Five types of perfectionism.
• [00:27:21] Parisian Perfectionists and Relationships.
• [00:31:26] Knowing your type of perfectionism and collaborating with others
• [00:34:10] Self-worth and self-esteem.
• [00:39:03] Rethinking self-punishment and discipline.
• [00:42:14] Emotional education and self-compassion.
• [00:50:07] Resisting rest and restoration
• [00:54:12] Restoring and emptying out.
• [00:58:37] The Power of Play.
• [01:02:07] Presence and Power.
• [01:07:37] Gray rocking technique

Katherine Morgan Schafler - Guest Links:

The Perfectionists Guide to Losing Control - A Path to Peace and Power

What kind of Perfectionist are you? Take the Quiz

Katherine Morgan Schafler - IG

References mentioned:

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• Surprisingly True Useful Fun Fact Research

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In a panel recorded live in front of an audience at the 2023 Eye to Eye National Friends and Allies conference, David and Isabelle sit down with Eye to Eye co-founders David Flink and Marcus Soutra, Eye to Eye student leader Kayla and an Eye to Eye student leader’s parent Claudia to discuss what it is like to be neurodivergent—or a parent to a neurodivergent kid—across different generations. Part three of three. To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org In this part, we cover the everyone’s favorite accommodations, how to confront stigma, and what everyone would say to their littler selves.

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David (Kessler) asks: what are everyone’s favorite accommodations? For Marcus, who was stuck carrying a giant suitcase to listen to audiotapes, audiobooks were originally not his favorite. He’d get the material two weeks after everyone else and it made him stand out in a way he didn’t like and kept it secret. Then he was working with a 10 year old kid through Eye to Eye, and the kid made a mold of his ear for an art project, saying that he doesn’t read with his eyes, he reads with his ears. Now he listens to every email he receives and sends, it’s how he reads; thanks to resources like Audible.com, it’s everywhere. It’s not just about the perception of the tool, it’s about the availability of the tool. If he could travel back in time to speak to a younger version of himself, because Kessler has a button he can press to make this happen, but only for a short time, Marcus would tell himself that “you’re not broken. The system is.” (Pause for applause). Isabelle wonders if there could be a time travel sound effect and after Flink suggests a Chewbacca noise, Kessler obliges. Claudia’s favorite accommodation is asking students what they need, and listening to them about what type of structure they like. Some like more, some less, some need a quiet room, some need to get up and walk around. David asks, is this essentially giving students the agency back? She agrees. And if she could go back in time, she would tell herself “Everything is going to be okay.” (Pause for snaps galore). After a tough rock-paper-scissors round, Kayla goes next. Kayla’s favorite accommodation is speech-to-text, she’ll step out of the classroom and talk it into her phone. Going back in time, she would tell herself “don’t listen to everything your peers tell you.” (Pause for snaps). Often the hurtful words don’t have anything to do with you, they have to do with what’s going on for them, like a kid who came up to her after saying something hurtful confessing that he was just hiding his own dyslexia. The second thing she would say is “Do you. Don’t think about the way people look at you because of the accommodations you use, or the things you need to do, because at the end of the day, it’s all about making an even playing field.” Her getting extra time on a test is to level the playing field. Flink goes next and shares his least favorite accommodation was getting extra time on tests, because it was him still having to do a test poorly designed for him. As an adult, it's his favorite accommodation, because he now sees it as kindness to have extra time for how he learns and thinks. If he had a time machine, he’d tell himself: “look, you’re going to have to have a strong backbone, but keep your wishbone strong, too.” Isabelle just asks, before we ask questions, that we close the time travel loops and return to the present moment. (Cue Chewbacca noise and a small disagreement about whether Star Wars technically involves time travel). Now it’s time for questions from the audience, the first one being: How is everyone doing? Everyone is doing well, considering they just shared something so vulnerable in front of hundreds of people. Another audience member asks: How can we educate ALL our students? How can we set it up so that we don’t feel stupid or incapable? Kayla starts: building communities, like with Eye to Eye, where there is a place where you have allies and you can see people going on to do great things, like Kayla witnesses when attending the Eye to Eye conference. Claudia names that schools and teacher trainings are underfunded, and they want to learn more and be better equipped but they’re not able to afford those trainings. She also wishes for students with single parents and those who don’t have the means to get access to resources and supports, too. David names that teachers are absolutely amazing and are doing the impossible. We are working with antiquated education system; we have phones that can look up data but we still get graded on memory, v. The questions we ask; teachers get punished if students don’t fit the mold and don’t perform well, but the mold itself is out of date. What about noticing the complexity of the questions students ask, rather than what they know? Marcus wonders why did it take us so long to embrace technology? One of the things he was always told was, “Marcus, you’re not going to have a calculator everywhere you go.” Everyone freaks out. David was told “you're not going to have spellcheck everywhere you go…” Marcus wonders at the teachers who scorn their student’s use of AI, but then they go home and use it to make their lesson plans…it’s odd to see this kind of resistance always, to new technology. He references that when ink pens first came out, there was pushback that quill pens are how you should write.  There was a time period in this country when left-handedness was illegal. When left-handedness was made legal, there were skyrocketing rates of left handedness, then it plateaued. He suspects we’re in a similar situation with neurodiversity, where “every single kid is being labeled with LD” and that’s not true, it's more than we’re learning more about the brain every single day, we’re decreasing the stigma as we go. Kessler wonders: who wouldn’t benefit from an individualized education plan? And from desegregation of classrooms? Having different people of different abilities doing the work, together? Flink wants to add that yes, culture change, yes to funding, but what do we do right now? Tomorrow? We are a people-powered movement and country, we can create the change we wish to see by sharing our stories and advocating for ourselves. Chloe asks: how do you combat the stigma around LD and ND within yourself, and how does it work when you’re a part of the education system and an educator? Kessler wonders in general how to address stigma—Claudia responds that as someone who identifies as neurotypical, she tries to build relationships and share her story. Kayla describes going above and beyond; she remembers how her case manager, who was in charge of her IEP, thought she should stick to a trade school and work with agriculture. Kayla’s family responded that this didn’t track with Kayla’s interests; the case manager responded with “you better get used to it, because that’s going to be the only thing she can do;” Kayla’s grandmother was LIVID, she doesn’t take anything from anybody, she told her off, she got Kayla a new case manager, she found tutor after tutor until something clicked. Kessler names how hard Kayla had to work to see a future for herself. David tackles the stigma question himself, with all of his vulnerabilities up. He has a therapist: not because he is broken, or deficient, but so that he doesn’t feel things alone. There is a shadow side to stigma: anyt...

In a panel recorded live in front of an audience at the 2023 Eye to Eye National Friends and Allies conference, David and Isabelle sit down with Eye to Eye co-founders David Flink and Marcus Soutra, Eye to Eye student leader Kayla and an Eye to Eye student leader’s parent Claudia to discuss what it is like to be neurodivergent—or a parent to a neurodivergent kid—across different generations. Part two of a series. To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org In this part, we cover masking, loving/hating school, and what's next for the next generation.

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David Flink shares his story, where he had a family that backed him and had a lot of privileges (being a white male in this country), but he was “invited” to leave four schools. He did not have a community. He met with his first student while he was in college, despite their neurodivergence in common, was very different from him—single mom, Cape Verdean family—became the closest person to him. He met Marcus, and they connected about getting their meds at 3p together, and now, 25 years later, here they are. Marcus points out that people think he was always talking about his learning difference, but he wasn’t, he was going to school to become a teacher at King State college, and he was talking with David, and after he shared his experience in the classroom he was student teaching in and seeing the impact that made on the students, he said “no one is going to listen to us, we’re 22,” we both overcompensated, were so extra professional, always showing up to meeting in suits, having to convince people that they could do this. The first person he openly talked about his learning difference with was David. Isabelle jumps in with her story; daughter of Polish immigrants, rags to riches immigrant dream kind of idea, and she had no clue she was neurodivergent until her mid to late 30’s and she hadn’t felt the feeling of what it’s like to be in such a neurodivergent friendly space (with snacks, food, fidgets, people being so direct and honest!) until now, and is so grateful that Marcus and David co-created such a thing. She realizes her community is now other neurodivergent parents who are sitting in their own learning and parenting kids who may be neurodivergent and just working so hard and finding community that way. David wants to normalize what Isabelle is speaking to, which is that we tend to think neurodivergence or learning difference means struggling or hating school, and the truth is so many people realize they are neurodivergent when they lose the structure of school, when they get a new job, when they become parents. David Flink wonders, asking Kayla—we work for you—what are you seeing? What are you hopeful for? What is it like for you? She saw a lot of pull out classes, and her little brother is telling her his experience at school, and it’s a little bit better. She was not pulled out for different classes. In class supports would be helpful, but public school districts are severely underfunded—she hopes that he does not go through so much ridicule and bullying that she had to go through. He’s making genuine friendships; she didn’t have a chance to make those the same way because she was always taken out of classes and kids were too busy realizing her difference. What should we all know about Gen Z? Kayla is describing being in 5th grade, taking these standardized tests and it was on the computer, and she has to take it with the rest of the class. The upside: easier than writing on paper. The downside: everyone is done before her, and everyone is on her “c’mon Kayla, finish up the class” and it just wasn’t enough—if she had the proper accommodations, she wouldn’t have to deal with that bullying. Claudia thinks that this is going to continue to change and evolve. Her Zoomer (wait?! Is this the next generation name?!) Got early intervention and proper accommodations and is dunking in all his classes that are not easy classes. If you have parents that start with acceptance, then seek resources and accommodations for you when you’re really little, the sky is the limit. David names that generationally speaking, don’t sleep on accommodations, and effective early intervention is making a difference we weren’t even able to see before because it wasn’t a resource that was even available to earlier generations. Claudia names that each person’s unique potential and style of intelligence is different, but this sets someone up to live up to their unique greatest potential, whatever that is. Isabelle jumps in with the idea that it’s also a systemic thing, to recognize (as author Julie (see show notes) put it in a talk earlier at the conference) that Gen Z is the first generation of students to even have social emotional learning standards as a part of their curriculum, we’re now seeing the changes because it’s not just on parents to nail it, it’s the larger change that has to happen to a culture through awareness. Marcus names that this cultural change always takes longer than you think it will; when they were first starting Eye to Eye 25 years ago, they were referencing studies just completed by Marshall Raskin about what helped kids with LD to help them launch into adulthood—metacognition, social emotional skills—and David and Marcus were trying to develop an art curriculum that would develop that for students. This was a foreign concept in 2002, and there was a big push for them to “tutor.” They had been tutored, and tutoring means “fixing,” and dyslexia needs “fixing,” and the great book “Overcoming Dyslexia” had just been written (not so great title), and it was awful. Turns out tutoring someone who can’t read by someone who can’t really read is a bad idea. But social emotional learning—BOOM. Changes everything. So they were doing this forever ago, and it’s still something they have to advocate for. It takes generations to make these changes. When David (Kessler) started working with Eye to Eye, he would ask a room full of people “who here has a learning difference” and people would reluctantly barely raise their arms, v. Now- now people own it and they talk about ableism sucking and what can we do to fight society, and… students who know they’re neurodiverse it’s a big difference Kayla sees. She also knows that her school setting matters. She is in a private school for high school, and people who know they have an LD and are proud of it, while her peers in public schools haven’t had the same supports and staff who are also ND modeling it for them. She goes to her teachers at the beginning of the school year, and she advocates for what she needs, and her teachers self-disclose their own ND to her. David describes: kids that aren’t shamed feel better about it. We can’t really learn with shame. Kayla also describes how she has to keep advocating for herself, teachers don't really know what you need and you keep having to explain and name your accommodations.

Julie Lythcott-Haims - OI speaker and author of "How to Raise an Adult" and "Your Turn: How to Be an Adult"

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards
Special Thanks to our amazing panelists: Marcus Soutra, David Flink, Kayla Dumas, and Claudia Bouchacourt for their courage, enthusiasm, and willingness to be vulnerable and real. 
Also, so grateful for everyone at Eye to Eye National: Sabrina Odigie (Eye to Eye Executive Assistant)...

In a panel recorded live in front of an audience at the 2023 Eye to Eye National Friends and Allies conference, David and Isabelle sit down with Eye to Eye co-founders David Flink and Marcus Soutra, Eye to Eye student leader Kayla and an Eye to Eye student leader’s parent Claudia to discuss what it is like to be neurodivergent—or a parent to a neurodivergent kid—across different generations. Part one of a series. To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org. In this part we cover how we have moved from the margins to a neurodivergent culture of our own.

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David introduces this live panel and that we’re all here to talk about neurodiversity across generations. There is this potato that came up in Ireland, called lumpers—exploded the population, everyone grew these yummier, bigger potatoes. But a Spanish galleon brought mold that took out only the Lumpers—when we lose diversity, we had the Irish Potato Famine. Throughout the generations we’ve had different pressures to keep or lose different parts of ourselves.  Beginning with a cheesy icebreaker, the panelists introduce themselves - David Flink (co-founder of Eye to Eye National), (he/him), Zennial (born between 1979-1981), and ice cream. Claudia (she/her), Gen X, French fries. Marcus Soutra, elder millennial (remembers dial up sounds and getting one song downloaded during dinner time), French fries. Kayla (she/her), Gen Z (no knowledge of dial up sound), French fries and ice cream together. David (Kessler, SSPOD co-host, he/him), Zennial, French fries. Isabelle (Richards, SSPOD co-host, she/her), elder Millenial and the original AIM Dizzabelle (with no numbers), specifically Five Guys cajun spice fries with strawberry shake. When did you or your loved one first identify as neurodivergent? Kayla shares that she was a premie baby, and already qualified for early intervention, then when she went through the public school system, she realized she learned differently then the rest of her peers, it took more time to get information, spell things differently, kids start to pick at you. Her family went back and forth with the school district to get her properly tested, and it was a battle, but finally, in the 7th grade, she was diagnosed with dyslexia and dyslcalculia, but her family always knew. How did you family react to your diagnosis? Kayla’s family were totally fine, it wasn’t completely shocking, her uncle and grandfather both had dyslexia, and her grandmother immediately knew because they were high school sweethearts, and she’d help him with his homework, so she saw the signs and immediately knew. Marcus was identified in 3rd grade, sort of the “classic” story, first with dyslexia and then with ADHD. Everybody reading looked like a magic trick that he just didn’t know how to do. His family reacted in a complicated way, they weren’t sure how he would react to the label, his mom has been identified with dyslexia since, and she was fearful of that label, because in her generation, she was labelled “dumb” and “stupid,’ because she didn’t have the luxury that Marcus had of having dyslexia and ADHD identified. When Marcus first heard the word dyslexia, it was from his 4th grade classmate, Karen, who was the one woke Karen (poor Karens everywhere, btw), when they were grouped together in a reading group together. Marcus thought it didn’t sound good, and that was when his mom first talked to him about it. We’re starting to see the differences in how boomer parents reacted to these diagnoses. Claudia noticed that something was different about her son when he was a baby, and went to Dr. Google and researched, and he ended up being diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder at 18 months, and has since been diagnosed with dysgraphia and dyslexia. David points out the differences in being diagnosed much earlier, and Isabelle notes that you have access to something like Google to get more information if your peers or family doesn’t have access to it. Claudia names that her generation was also prone to Googling harmful things, so she stuck to peer-reviewed, science in her research. David Flink names how different those early years of time, were for him. He is a White man in America, mom is an educator, they had some means, and he was first identified as “stupid,” long before he was identified as dyslexic. That identity still stays with him. We want to give him a big hug. There are parts of our identity that develop in the absence of information. For David, his symbol recognition disorder (form of dyslexia) was caught in 4th grade, because of his spelling, but no one caught his ADHD until he was in college. There’s a part of him that, in the absence of information, always thinks he is in trouble. And this connects to how people respond to our diagnosis. David names he hit the family jackpot, and someone else’s reality is so different. You can chart your life based on who you hang out with—it’s not talked about enough. What happened to those groups when you got your diagnosis? Marcus remembers being in a community of the “odd kids” or “bad kids” that was formed by accident, in a way. Marcus used to have to go to lunch five minutes before everyone to go to the nurse’s office to get his stimulant meds, and so all the kids who left to get their meds would end up sitting at the lunch table together. Kayla had a different experience, once she was diagnosed and her friends realized she was different, she had to let a lot of friendships go, specifically in middle school. Lots of friends weren’t supportive, though her family was. One kid in particular would say “oh, you’re going to the SpEd class” and she didn’t know what to say—they would say degrading things like “you’ll never go to college” and she was so young, she believed those things. She was bawling, hyperventilating, when she learned of her diagnosis, fearing “those kids were right.” Her mother countered this and gave her the example of the author of the “Here’s Hank” books, which helped her learn how to read—he was dyslexic, too. David points out that Kayla had to make choices in who she associated with, to discern who was a support and who was not. Claudia had a similar experience to Kayla, in that she and her son experienced a lot of exclusion; her family excludes them and they are rarely invited to events as a family. Her son was in a collaborative kindergarten, where half the students were neurodivergent or had LDs, half were not. Her son was invited to a birthday party in his class, and she RSVP’d, and it turned out his classmate was a neighbor, two doors down. They became friends and eventually friended each other on Facebook, and Claudia saw that the mom had posted “the only kid we were hoping would not RSVP is the only one who did, what is wrong with El Paso, TX?” They were also a White, military family in a predominantly hispanic area, and they got excluded a lot. It’s not funny to be marginalized and it takes so much courage for Claudia to say this because it is something we have to sit with. David Flink points out that here she is not alone, here she is with family. And we zoom out and acknowledge our large room filled with brilliant neurodivergent people in the audience, that this is part of what Eye to Eye and the Organizing Institute do, is create a safe space for neurodivergent people to come together; here we are not alone. David names the theme: of being marginalized, losing friends, feeling like you’re stupid because you have to take medicine. We all share parts of that story, it’s part of our neurodivergent culture. 

Lumpers and Potato Famine

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David sits down with Eye to Eye's Alyssa Tundidor for the question and answer portion of their fireside chat. The audience members, who are young student leaders from across the country who are neurodivergent or have a learning difference, ask brilliant questions, like what is David most proud of, how do you answer someone who is pitying your neurodivergence, what do. you say when people insist "everyone has a little bit of ADHD!", and to how to share special interests with neurotypical folx. To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org
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Lee asks: David’s talked about making the world better for folks who have LDs or are ND, is there a specific moment he is proud of? David answers: there are so many, and he’s really lucky. He’ll do a rapid fire bunch of them, somebody trying a strawberry for the first time and realizing it was delicious, somebody reading a book, somebody realizing they didn’t have to sit still. Somebody realizing they were worth it and good enough. The time he was called Dr. 13 times even when he kept correcting them. The time he was able to evidence differences in someone’s education plan. The time he talked to parents to help them get their kids diagnosed appropriately, or get them to understand their kids differently. Every speaking event and having to talk to friends about where he just was. Somebody buttdialed him once, and he never listens to voicemail and the person didn’t know they were leaving a message and he hears the person saying that “David helped me understand ADHD differently.” They were talking with their friends like in a chat about what they had learned from me. That made David’s heart explode in a good way. Carly asks: people who are neurotypical use language that is harmful to the neurodivergent community, like calling them stupid, how would you address a discussion like that with someone when you understand their intentions aren’t negative—what’s the appropriate way to approach it? Let’s imagine David it’s someone relatively new in your world. With family members or loved one, it’s about creating parallels that shock them. With someone new, the most important thing is to not fight a belief but contradict it. How many times do you all talk about your neurodivergence in a good way: it doesn’t happen a lot, it’s conditioning. He got a piece of pizza, put in salad, called it a pizza taco, and everyone did it and David was like “yeah, that’s an ADHD thing.” Rebranding! And parallel examples for people to feel more of the intensity. For example, having a teacher saying “how can I get my student to feel more comfortable talking about their learning differences?” And the example: “great, how much do you weigh?” So depending on how well you know the person, throw things out there. Talking people about culture and oppression, and give people the out. People double down when you accuse them; so instead, “I know you didn’t mean to oppress a population, or be an ableist jerk, and call them stupid.” And it's really hard to see people not learn in a typical way, you give them the out. The more you combat the belief of another person, the more you entrench it. Have you ever seen people fight about how tall they are? What does it matter, and they’re getting more and more riled up.  Another Carly asks: advice for seeking a therapist that supports them, especially going through transitions. Lots of language uses infantilizing examples and person first language, and therapists do this as well. One thing about therapy: you are their boss. You hire and pay them. Interview them. Ask them why they said that? We shouldn’t give therapists breaks and also don’t mistreat them. Meet with different therapists and find out who’s better. How good it feels actually talking to the person—do they listen to your expertise on neurodiversity. Do they do say “oh ADHD, that’s hard.” v. “Oh ADHD, that can be really marginalizing, how do you experience that?” One is vacant neglect, one is targeted. You are allowed to be very picky about the people you put into your life.  Another participant asks: My brother is coming from DC to Northwestern and is complaining about the food-is the food at Northwestern really that bad? David names that he will have to deal with the friendliness of the midwest, and he needs to go into Evanston or go off campus to really give the food a try. The midwest nice thing can really unsettle people: why would you know that? The midwest thing is actually: Hi, how are you? They really want to know the answer. It’s a cultural thing. The food is fire, but not on campus. Check out Jeni’s ice cream, and check out Gigio’s. Another question: ADHD as a term is overused and because of that their is a fear of being dismissed—what about the pat on the head, the condescending v. The dismissing? Are those equally bad? David names that it’s probably person, what someone can’t tolerate; he can’t tolerate being infantilized, he’s not a baby, he has a beard and everything. It’s a frequency measure, whichever one you get more of is going to be worse. How do you own your own label differently: you’re modeling it for other people, they’re not modeling it for you. Finding ways to talk about it when you’re the one with the IEP and 504. Finding ways to talk about it privately with teachers, having casual conversations about how people can talk about being neurodivergent without devaluing neurodivergence. There can be a part of everyone that can be a little ADHD if they’re put in the right room or at the right moment—they can use that moment to empathize with us, or they can use that moment to destroy us. He encourages people using the empathy skills to rebrand it. And in school, when you’re talking to a teacher, apologize how the IEP law makes them do extra work. Most IEP plans make teachers work longer hours, cost the school more money, and that’s a fact, so he empathizes with that. And it gently reminds them it’s a law. Their family says that “everyone is a little ADHD or autistic!” When people try to normalize you by saying you’re like everyone else, they dehumanize you. They are getting rid of a lot of parts with you that matter. “I had a hard time picking a sandwich that one time, I’m a little ADHD, but you know how I handled that sandwich picking, I….” But “no, I get two sandwiches all the time and get buyers remorse.” They’re maybe making it a little reductionistic. How would you give advice to people who want to speak about their experiences or feel a type of guilt because it’s not as severe because someone has it worse than me? David didn't hear that because he was thinking of his cat, Blue, who needs medication. Can she ask again? How would you advise someone to not feel guilty or dramatic or fears they’re making it up? I think it’s hard to have courage. It’s really hard. People will always do things that we don’t like when we talk about these things. But how do I tolerate that energy coming back at me? How do I talk about this? People who are neurodivergent think that if it’s hard for them it’s easy for everyone else and if it’s easy for them it’s easy for everyone else, and that’s not true. When we can honor how difficult things are, you’re speaking to other people in our culture. It was really embarrassing for David to ask her to repeat that. But she is important and needs to apologize. People don’t want to acknowledge that, and David had to own that. David’s dad, who was a teacher, was teaching him how to spell piece v. The word peace—what’s wrong with our language? So he had him write each word...

David sits down with Eye to Eye's Alyssa Tundidor for a fireside chat. Covering everything from David’s origin story, to where Something Shiny came from, to co-creating spaces safe enough for folx who are neurodivergent. To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org.
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Alyssa Tundidor (Alyssa Tundidor is Eye to Eye's Senior Mentoring Program Coordinator--for more on Alyssa, see below!) facilitates a fireside chat for the participants of the Eye to Eye Organizing Institute (OI) at the University of Denver. David names this is the first time he is sharing his story and he is not holding a tennis ball and is actually sitting down as he tells it, and he’ll be squirming the whole time as he does it. His first memory is around his story, in 5th grade, he is the kid in school with the really messy hair, and he’d write pages and pages of stories-no one could read them, they were not spelled correctly. And David is quiet when he’s writing in the corner, but nobody cares what he writes. Fast forward to his first year of graduate school at Northwestern University, he feels like a fraud, like they shouldn’t have let him in, did they know he failed a class in high school? And he was in class learning about ADHD and classmate who ran the Eye to Eye Chapter at Reed College says “oh” — he braces himself to be ‘fixed’ or told things, and instead she says “there’s this think called project eye to eye starting where they take college students with learning skills and putting them together with students in high school. Wanna join?" His first encounter with the organization is talking to David Flint, and he asks what he has, and David shares he has symbol recognition disorder and ADHD, and David Flink goes: “Awesome!” And that’s the first time David heard someone react that way without the pity or the “good for you!” Skipping past a lot in high school, getting in trouble a lot, skipping school, all of that, he’s sitting in a room at the OI with 27 other peoples, cross-legged, throwing racket balls against the wall, he felt like he belonged for the first time in his life somewhere. He belonged before…as long as they didn’t know… whatever that “nerghhh” is. OI and Eye to Eye was the first place where he experienced he didn’t have to hide a part of himself. Alyssa had a very similar experience with the OI, she was 23, she was at Radford University, and there were 60 people. What is the story behind Something Shiny? David gives the real story, not the marketing story. He’s a person who thinks really big but doesn’t really think about the details, of course he wants to save the world, he just doesn’t know what to do next. And he was getting paid to do all these trainings on ADHD, and he realized that there’s a paywall around getting good information about ADHD. You have to have certain privilege to know someone, to have money, to get accurate information. And most people trying to put forward accurate information are selling something. And it’s hard to find somethings like this without a sales push. When we can increase the understanding of things, we can decrease suffering. Alyssa speaks about listening to the qualifier episode, and it made her feel really seen and really heard. We had real feels right there. There’s this idea you’re getting at, when we’ve experienced something in the world, we can make it better for someone that follows us. There’s a cultural piece of learning differently when we’re neurodivergent. If you are part of a neurodiverse community, it’s very very hard to grow up without neglect. The people who love you don’t know how to love you. We don’t know what we need, that never happened. You can’t neglect neglect, you have to attend to it. Asking a neurodiverse person “how do you learn?” The answers 30 years ago would be “it’s hard, and it’s good that it hurts” and we all kind of bought into that. And then, all of a sudden, it doesn’t have to hurt. It's okay to swivel in a chair and have every chair in your office be a swivel chair—it’s about speaking to the things that are very hard for us to own because we’re afraid we’re going to get rejected. When you talk about them, you feel like more of community, not less. Alyssa wants to emphasize the belonging aspect—what inspired David to make a safe space for people who are neurodivergent. Someone at work said to him: “Just so you know, it didn’t bother me at all, but your energy was really big—it didn’t bother me, but it could bother someone” — that person saw my energy, and wanted to work together. We have to take steps to work together and not mask. It’s like hiding the parts of us that don’t look like everyone else. “I read books, I sit still, over the weekend, I read books, I sat still.” There’s emotionality and there’s a task, but if the task is understanding what the book says, does it matter if I read it or listen to it? Creating safety is looking at comfort, looking at who you are, and not wearing masks. Immediately take that mask off. Alyssa names that rejection hurts so much when you’re ND, and it’s true. And we’re talking about self-esteem and a sense of worth. How do we feel worth? We’re often getting our sense of worth from other people. When you can find other roles in the world to make a difference in someone else’s life. The big secret with mentorship is reciprocal: whatever you are doing to help someone younger than you, you are giving to yourself. It comes back to you. Don’t want to let someone down, so there’s a power to making a difference to other people’s lives. Alyssa asks: when is the first time you felt accepted as an ND person? It made David accepted and valued for who he was. There’s more places in the world than Eye to Eye—he felt that with his brother, he feels that with his partner, his friends. Who you surround yourself by is so much what you believe about yourself. His friends, his partner, believed in David before he did. What made David decide to become a therapist? David started wanting to save the world that was on fire as he saw it. His own experience with therapists was: they’re not that great. He wanted to be a special education teacher that teaches history, because he wants to fix all of education and name all of the lies and change the world. So, in college, he went through all the teaching classes, and they were going through lesson planning, and he realized that he wouldn’t get to teach what he would teach. He’s TAing psych classes because they’re easy, and he doesn’t mind them. So he ended up leaving education, talked to a psych professor he was friends with, “don’t know what to do now?!” But he learned he could be the difference, and he believes every life represents the world. In front of him, there’s a galaxy, and a galaxy of stars, and for him, it’s incredibly important to save the world. He felt limited that he could only work people in education become better consumers and producers, versus showing people what they want in this world and then destroying the things that don’t matter. It’s a good mic, so he won’t mic drop. What tips would he give young people navigating the world that is not built for them? He names: this world is not built for you, this world makes things worse, and you make things better. The second we pretend it’s built for us, we are ignoring things. We know that if we take weight and shading in different spots, it makes it easier for those with dyslexia to read. Like a dyslexic font. So why isn’t every book printed like that? A neurotypical person can read that book, but now everyone else can. We sit in a world, where you have every answer you want in your pocket that can answer everything, but we’re still working a school system that asks students to remember answers and not ask questions (and he loves teachers)…so no...

Ever shown up at a holiday meal and immediately realized with a sinking feeling- "Not again…I don't can’t eat anything here…" this episode's for you! From honoring the cook's efforts while not betraying your own needs, to recognizing the joys of chewing on pens and ice, join David and Isabelle as we embrace our sensory sensitivities and make our own neurodivergent-friendly and inclusive traditions. Check out our Holiday Survival Guide!

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David and Isabelle stare down the fast moving train of holidays and expectations that is barreling toward us right now. As we approach Thanksgiving we have a bunch of "shoulds" coming at us--we should be like everyone else and even though we have sensory issues with cars, and sounds, and people, and all that stuff. Everything from sitting still from being held hostage on a plane or in the car, or being stuck in a service or sit at a table, or eating - the sound, the food, the overstimulation, while simultaneously coupled with frustration and your routine being destroyed, and all of this at the same time. This explains why Isabelle has a lurching sense of dread approaching this time of year. The holiday dread is real. David and Isabelle have covered other aspects of holidays, like speaking with family, and the glories and pains of holiday travel, and here they are focusing on food and sensory sensitivities. Isabelle remembers how growing up she was known as a picky eater but actually there were a lot of sensory sensitivities going on. She had memories of celebrating “wigilia” (Polish Christmas Eve celebration) and sitting at a much larger table, with much more eyes on her, and as someone who only ate pretty much chicken and white rice and potatoes, she was facing down a traditional non-meat meal of 12 mostly fish-based dishes (such as pickled herring). You fast before this evening meal, and then you commence the eating. She would be lightheaded and nauseous because she’d be so hungry and would fill up on dinner rolls with butter, everyone is judging and commenting, then she lives on the high of opening presents, and then they’d go to midnight mass at midnight, and then they’d light candles and means the oxygen is rapidly leaving the area in an enclosed place and so she’d either pass out and throw up. Everyone can look back in time and find the holiday memories of “we can’t believe we did that on purpose.” We don’t make time any other time of year to have these rituals, and see each other, and it's really about connections, yet we get caught up in following these rules that don’t always work. Isabelle thinks about how for years she carried the shame around this being her fault, she’s the picky eater that would end up passing out or throwing up, but then thinks about how easy it would’ve been to provide some kind of option for her. That there are traditions and ways of keeping the meaning behind the traditions, but also making even small accommodations that can make all the difference to us. How we can always make new traditions. There’s a really hard part with food: there are people that work really hard for hours in the kitchen and they want you to try and see what you like about it and not like about it—how can we try certain things that work for us, and how can we bring our own food—like here’s my tub of Mac and cheese, there has to be a middle path. The way to be a gracious guest and host, and how as neurodivergent folks we can prefer to host because it gives us structure, she can stay on her feet, it helps her mask less. What is this about ADHD and food sensitivities? There’s a lot around taste aversion, what happens when we associate a food item with a thought in our head—like “eww, this tastes like sand” and we don’t eat sand…or boogers. To make the eating experience a lot more about the flavors they’re experiencing rather than the thought in the brain. Is it salty? Sweet? Savory? Textures? David is a texture person, there is a fine line between “this is edible” and “this makes me gag”—like bananas, one day to the next changes. Isabelle and David firmly agree on bananas being this type of thing, and Isabelle does not do overripe bananas, you make it a cooking liquid and you put it in banana bread. David also likes drinkable yogurt and he doesn’t mind it because he’s drinking it. If he’s moving his mouth hole up and down there needs to be something there to fight my mouth.” And crunching is stimulating and stress reducing. Whether we’re chewing ice or almost-cutting-the-top-of-your-mouth bread crust. Is it the act of chewing that’s stress reducing, or something crunchy is stress reducing? Isabelle notices chewy things, like gum, gummy chews, and chip crunch, or a cold crunch, she does not like it—there are special ice cubes that collapse in your mouth that shrink in your mouth. Tiny ball ices at Sonic or certain places have that. David knows chewing gum is a stimulation, and David is hazarding guesses with the crunching thing (like it’s objectively dominating something in your mouth, or you’re making progress, or it’s the sound itself)—there are a lot of parts of that that is soothing. If it’s paired with dopamine, your chocolate chip cookie crunch is paired with delight and celery crunch is a HORROR to Isabelle. David’s favorite crunch is an apple-pear crunch, or a jicama crunch. What is an apple-pear? What is it exactly? This links us to grapples (apples that taste like grapes), and cotton-candy grapes (it’s too much) and champagne grapes and boba. Isabelle loves it, and David describes how he never got boba, he just thought they were fun to launch and make stick to the things, and then years later, it was cold, and he got the boba and then he had a moment when all of a sudden, he chewed it up and was like boba. “Boba, you’re delicious!” And now he’s a full boba fan. There was a challenge to himself to experience it again. Isabelle wants to go on 800 food related tangents and realizes it might be a food related special interest. The sound of the crunch is a tiny sonic boom in your mouth. And David leans on a couch with his hand on his chin and his finger got in and he accidentally came down on his finger absentmindedly, and you can’t even pretend to bite yourself, oh my goodness, it is so painful and powerful. Every time Isabelle bites her tongue or cheek it feels like she severs her tongue. But also, why did David put his finger in his mouth accidentally? And if he put his finger in his mouth and chew it. Isabelle loved chewing pen cap (old school pic pen caps), and she’d chew on everything. She’d also chew on lollipop sticks, she chews on the cupcake wrapper, she doesn’t ingest these things and doesn’t like chewing, but she loves chewing paper and the pen cap, and it got vertical in her mouth and it sliced a line in the center of the tongue, and she still has a divet. Every single person who is listening has done something like that, or has eaten too many sour patch kids, or has eaten hot pizza too fast and burned their mouth open. This connects to masking and needing stimulation, and a little bit of clumsiness, oral gratification, and it’s important. Switching and making new fantasies for the holidays: if you have a picky eater, why don’t you make that with them and bring that with them? Don’t let the family shame you and make you thing you’re doing anything wrong. Take care of your family. Including yourself. So many of us will give kids the room to offer them to ask for what they need or give them alternatives—but we don’t model it ourselves. Grown up an...

The second part of an illuminating conversation with David Flink and Marcus Soutra, co-founders of Eye to Eye, friends and pioneers in education equity for neurodivergent folx. The group explores how a story of neurodivergent shame and trauma can shift to feeling like the story of surviving, how the pain stays with us but the reaction of a listener can layer over it, and how we can to begin to heal old wounds. Furthermore, what does it actually mean to be cool or to be a role model people want to look up to? To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Flink names that in all these schools, there’s an adult who believes that giving young people room to tell their story can change the world. This was before research supporting depressive symptoms go down, self esteem goes up, that this work works. They are saying yes to a young person—and we are the adults now, and we can say yes to a young person. The day Flink met Marcus, his life changed. They were introduced by a professor. And then they had this whole momentum when they all met—and that’s how it started rolling. There are kids right now that are hearing this message on this podcast, through Eye to Eye chapters, and it’s unprecedented, and there are all these other hidden players that make this all possible. Kessler names that the value and the meaning of the story changes when you participate in these kinds of movements, though it doesn’t change the story itself. Kessler’s story started with a sense of being a fraud and was shame based—it wasn’t until he met Flink and Marcus and everyone at Eye to Eye that he started to see the impact of his story. It changed from a fraud story to a survivor story, there was worth in that all of a sudden. We’re grown ups, we made it—when Kessler turned 40, there was this thing that he felt like “he did it! I survived! I didn't know if I was going to do this!” And now he’s one of these old ND people, and he can remember when there weren’t CDs—there’s a part of who he is that’s entrenched in meaning that wasn’t there before. Eye to Eye creates those stories—taking high school and college students with neurodivergence and pairing them with jr high students to tell their stories through art. We have to mask—may the next generation not even know what we’re talking about when we say mask. After a generation of talking about what’s right with kids, there are schools where kids don’t have to wear masks, not like they used to. This daughter who started with Eye to Eye when she was 8, and now she wears her story with pride. How different is your life, when you don’t have to wait until your adulthood to change your narrative?- The environment in and of itself, is changing the story. Isabelle names that developmentally, that junior high age range is around the time our limbic system is storing the most vivid memories then, because they are the firsts and they help us start to make sense of our identities (see "reminiscence bump" info below!). Now imagine that the message you’re getting at that crucial developmental stage is there’s something right with you, that you’re okay, that you can be yourself, and just how contagious that is in a space, not just for kids with learning differences, but also neurotypical kids, everyone at that school. And that when you then retell your story, it doesn’t alter the original experience, but it creates a layer on top of it, and you keep adding those layers upon layers—which rewires the memory. That is actually trauma work, and can only happen in relationship, where you have someone listening. The brilliance of the Eye to Eye model is that it’s deeply relational, it includes these hidden networks and built upon near peer relationships. Kessler also points out that Flink and Marcus are actually cool. These are not people you’re feeling a sense of shame around, you’re seeing them and going “how cool are they?” Marcus agrees, they're the James Dean of dyslexia. There’s a way to normalizing it, and making it okay. Flink and Marcus held hands and took the leap—early on, thinking, he was thinking: “I am professionally neurodiverse, there’s no going back”—there was a fear in the beginning, how are people going to receive this? Finding other cool people who were willing to tell their stories and keep doing it, keep doing. Early on it did not feel as cool as it did now. Flink has a thesis on Kessler’s thesis—“it is always cool to own who you are.” That's what you see when you see Eye to Eye’s young people. Kessler met them at a time when they were really lucky where they had received kids responding to them, mirroring back to them—“your story matters!” If you visit any one of their sites, people with different races, cultures, backgrounds, who are proud of their brains. Proud of themselves. Everybody deserves the right to be proud of who they are, regardless of their background and intersectional identities including neurodiversity. Would Flink and Marcus self-describe themselves as cool? Flink names that talking about trauma sits with you—it’s great to talk about problems in huge public forums. Flink, still has nightmares, including this past week, about what happened to him at school. That’s experience is what’s in front of him able to fully embrace these compliments. Kessler was complimenting something about his essence, he thinks everyone listening is cool because they’re taking a chance. He’s still working on it. He knows that an exclamation point does not go into the middle of word, but it takes something from him to make that correction, and it takes something for him to not be judged. Marcus names how much they're showing our age by using the word cool, and Marcus is a huge Neil Young fan, the song "Keep on Rocking in the Free world," the idea "there goes another kid who will never get to be cool…" there goes another kid we let go as a society, we don’t get to engage in the community, fall in love, be your full self, that’s something—that another kid made us feel validated and cool. It’s not that we set out to be cool (or Fire, or Werk..we are clearly old), it’s that there was a reaction and a response to our stories that made us feel connected and like we weren’t alone, and that changes how you feel about yourself. This makes Isabelle think of What Not To Wear (see link below) the old Bravo makeover show that while on the surface dealt with fashion faux pas, really had more to do with instilling confidence and a sense of self—and she remembers someone saying “you either wear the dress or the dress wears you” and it's like that with brains. Side note, if you can’t take the compliment at the moment, save it in your pocket for a rainy day, just hold on to it, you don’t have to let it in yet but don’t lose it either. So maybe it’s like wearing our brains instead of letting our brains wear us? Kessler sums it up: what it feels like to have a sense of confidence and mastery, what it feels like to belong, what it feels like to have a community, and matter, and have worth. It’s impossible to embody all those things and not be cool or fire or feel your worth. Kessler asks, if everything were gone tomorrow, what would Flink and Marcus want the legacy of Eye to Eye to be? Flink names that they are committed to the next 25 years as much as they’re summing up the first 25, and it boils down to it, young people are not broken. Your brain is beautiful, your story matters, and have the courage to share that with the world. Marcus adds that “no statues,” we are not designing a movement to be remembered, if they’re forgotten, it’s fine, it’s more that it was a spark that started and built up the movement—we...

David and Isabelle are joined by David Flink and Marcus Soutra, co-founders of Eye to Eye, friends, and pioneers in education equity and empowering young neurodivergent folks to know and own their story and change the education system and world for the better. Go deep into how this youth-led movement started 25 years ago, the impacts Marcus and David have witnessed, and what it has always hinged upon: that our neurodivergent stories and culture matter and sharing them can change the lives of others for the better.  To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org.

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David wonders if, given that they have already attended the Organizing Institute of Eye to Eye—and should we talk about it as if it hasn’t already happened? Or as if they are about to go…? Marcus is up for whatever, David Flink points out that this is a really choose your own adventure intro. David Kessler has been involved with Eye to Eye for years and gives an introduction. David Flink and Marcus Soutra are very important people in Kessler’s (SSPOD co-host’s) story. Flink started Project Eye to Eye twenty years ago, he’s been nominated by CNN as person of the year, he’s created a network of community around neurodivergence spanning every state. Marcus is so much around the connections and relationships of this organization, being the boots on the ground, working with so many people in this industry, talking so much about neurodiversity and ADHD in general. What made you think about making the OI, what is it for? The event is the Young Leader’s Organizing Institute (OI), first one held in Jersey City in 2005, and held every year since, including virtually through the pandemic, and young people from around the country come together and build community through their learning difference, neurodivergence, learning how to be a leader and tell their story. It’s a youth-led movement, facilitates their work throughout the year. Some are already activists, and some are new to it. Isabelle names that this is incredible, people are coming and being real and vulnerable and its truly incredible. There are chapters from over 20 states, and two students from each chapter come together and learn real tangible skills to learn how to be leaders and lead a program. Every student coming represents another 10-20 students back home. This event has allowed us to give students the skills and puts their oxygen masks on first, rather than the masking of hiding who you are. How did Flink dream about making Eye to Eye in the first place? It was co-dreaming, it was celebrating 25 years since its inception, and he stepped on this campus 25 years ago. The original version was a pretty small dream. Nobody had told him with any authenticity that there was something about his learning experience was powerful and right. He hit the teacher and family lottery, he did have people cheering him on. He wanted kids to know they’re not alone. And it wasn’t until he met Marcus, they codreamed. They had different life experiences, what would it look like if we brought people from different backgrounds, different states. We need young people from all backgrounds finding their way to love each other through learning differently, and it’s helping educate educators so they can say yes to when young people say what they need. They are 1 in 5 of all students; we need to encourage cross communication between neurotypical and neurodivergent folks. Isabelle gives feedback on what the whole conference experience was like, where there were signs, and no fear sweat, chairs with wheels, fidgets everywhere, and then when someone talks, you actually want to listen. Flink names that there’s where they started, and it was all about people saying something we needed to hear. Flink gave Kessler (SSPOD co-host) a series of vague descriptions of people that were all wandering the airport, and he was going to find them all. David didn’t shame Flink, he was on it—tracking down the people, looking for people who looked lost or had Eye to Eye gear—it became this amazing quest. It was like a Collect ‘Em All Pokemon adventure, and it was screaming and excitement and it was so much fun. David names that for the next 25 years, our environment continues to be helpful, but we are an education equity organization, we are youth driven. We’re here to set up the next generation of young people to ask for what they need and change the school systems. There’s a need for them to say what they need to say. Kessler names that trauma bonding can happen in therapy, where people go into the gory details and it's not helpful. The idea of “sharing your story” can provoke eye rolls. One of the things you first need to know is your story—talk about your story, how you got there. David felt like a fraud, the last thing he wanted to do is to tell anyone how he got there, and then Marcus lead it off by sharing his story, and as he started hearing everyone’s stories, he realized how much he wasn’t alone, he was suddenly aware he was not deficient in this group, not different in this group. Was there a story in particular that spurred this on? The idea is to make this invisible visible, make the hidden culture visible, from how we experience the trauma of school (or home, or work, or family, etc.) Marcus can identify the dyslexic person who points to the menu instead of reading the menu at dinner, and he names it for them, there's a hidden aspect to this.  Marcus had never met with David, and they had never met, but 9/10 they connected on things. Marcus was running an Eye to Eye chapter after school, and working with mentors, and running the art room (where they build social/emotional skills) and the idea was the invention project. Einstein was dyslexic and he was an inventor, so think make an invention that addresses the biggest thing that trips you up. One kid said “I hate school because I get bullied for using extended time on tests,” and he created this invention called Bully Be Gone—he called them death stars—the way he was able to use art and have near peer role models help him navigate that problem. For a 19 year old, a 10 year old—it didn’t matter where we were from, the emotional experience and the ability to connect and communicate with each other. That was where it was. Isabelle wonders about David and Marcus’ meet cute—and she recognizes that bullying is a massive trauma, especially when it goes unrecognized and unacknowledged. It changes how you relate to others and yourself, and it’s this big deal thing, and you’re then able to put art, movement, expression to it because it goes beyond words, and what it means for the older kid/youth—what it means for them to do that. We all want to spare others the suffering others went through—you go into this work because you want the world to not have that, and she’s struck by the amount of healing—what happens when you change the outcome of another person’s story, and that you matter (and it’s also not your job or role to), but what it means to transmute that wound —aka trauma mastery.  Marcus names that he sees this with his mentors—the first thing he says is, your story matters and it can change the life of someone else.

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To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

Special Thanks to: Marcus Soutra and David Flink, co-founders of Eye to Eye, for their honesty and heart, Sabrina Odigie for her logistical wizardry, and Philister Lukacevic, Eye to Eye Director of Marketing and Communications for his patience and help in getting these edits and materials out there!

Isabelle and David continue to reflect upon what it was like to experience the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute Conference—Isabelle describes how strange and surreal it felt to not be judged for things she’s used to having to manage and mask about; what it means to recognize that there is a part of you that goes unseen so much of the time and when you connect with it, the grief that comes. The power of recognizing you are among your particular tribe and the jarring feeling of realizing how rare it is. And also, ADHD podcaster dance offs.  

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Isabelle describes how, partly due to flight delay and the tail end of a cold and such, it was only a day and a half worth of conference experience, and yet it felt very surreal—she kept asking, is this real? And on the second day, was walking around feeling like she was shaming herself for her own behavior (because normally, she would’ve registered people’s looks or reactions to her interrupting them so much, for example). And she also noticed that while she would normally push herself to engage even if she wanted to really shut down, here she felt safe taking time for herself and not engaging, and didn’t even feel the need to try to endear herself or manage relationships excessively to prevent fallout or misunderstandings. She felt very seen and understood. David names that no one in the world is used to not being judged. She wonders if this is a common experience for attendees? David describes that he hasn’t been in this alumni role before; when he was a participant, people would be up all night in the common rooms where they would be staying, someone would be crying, someone would be forming a significant partnership or breaking up with someone, and they would go to bed at 3a and wake up at 7a to do the whole thing over again. It was like being whisked down a torrent of a river without hitting any rocks along the way. To feel so fully accepted, in all your parts, not just the parts that are shiny but all the parts—the closest word to what it feels like is maybe a collective grief, and regret, and then also release. David names that people don’t see all your parts, but they see the parts you spend most of your time hiding.  Having that part show up—it’s exhausting and refreshing and exhilarating to know how long that part has been hidden. As a therapist, when David diagnoses someone as neurodivergent later in life—there’s an initial, “oh my god, that makes so much sense!” And it’s followed by a “oh my god, if I had known earlier…?”  You cannot grab this information without grabbing some of the grief. But it’s also so strange when you’re sitting in a room where the task is to acknowledge it. Isabelle gives the example of, going to a comicon and finding your people v. Going and finding a room full of people who are celebrating a show that was cancelled early (Firefly) and cosplaying as one specific character (Jayne) and it’s that specific and for four days straight. Or it’s like someone is playing the sports ball team and they’re wearing the opposing team’s jersey on someone, it’s like you know you’re on the same side because you’re both wearing the other team’s color. It’s the difference between finding your people under duress or outnumbered. It’s like Isabelle finding a bunch of tall women at the Denver airport and feeling oddly among her people but it’s jarring and delightful too. Isabelle wonders what David’s realization was like—he mentioned all these aspects of grieving his brother’s loss and the loss of being a part of this community in the same way, and here he came back and experienced it again. He is doing great, and he has the feeling of “put me in, coach!” He watched amazing people (like Sawyer, Chloe, for example) and seeing parts of him 10 years ago, looking up to people he thought were really great. It was this moment of feeling like everything was coming full circle and David felt an immense amount of gratitude that he could reconnect with people who were really important to him, and his partner could see what he was doing. They were participating in the ally training group and as neurotypical person, it meant so much to David to see them getting along with everyone because it wasn’t a judgment-filled place. It reminds him how important a lack of judgment means to everyone not just neurodivergent folx. He came back with a renewed sense of worth, mission, and purpose. We are trying to do this with the podcast, we are trying to destroy a stigma. And we are far from the only ones doing it, but the best podcast out there—Isabelle imagines they just challenged all these other amazing podcasters to a dance off and David names they would argue about the song choice and just end up having an amazing hangout. 

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle and David reflect upon what it was like to experience the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute Conference--in a nutshell, for David, figuring out 20 some odd years ago that his learning style was valuable, and then reclaiming hope after great loss, and for Isabelle, just this past year, feeling like she discovered her home planet in a conference room in Denver. Covering bits about medications, creating neurodivergent-friendly spaces, and masking, David and Isabelle go deep, and also discuss how there should be a "leave no trace" pact between a chair's fabric and your leg.

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Isabelle updates David that she’s been on stimulant meds (in extended release form), but would crash at the end of the day, and so her prescriber gave her an immediate release form she could use to help the end of day transitions (bedtime). They are going through schedule puberty as they transition to the kids being in school again but also not being in school yet and she just wants the discomfort to be over. She forgot to take her booster dose today, and it is so obvious to her, she is noticing just how much textures and sensations get to her. David names that it’s almost as if she didn’t have an accommodation to avoid distraction and wasn’t aware how many physical distractions would push through. She is so itchy and uncomfortable and so distracted by physical distractions. This comes up with the right variables. Just a few weeks ago, it was really humid, and David was like “I’m not wearing a shirt or pants” and it was just too much and he didn’t want to sit on certain fabrics, doesn’t want to sit on something that peels off, why can’t we just hold each and just leave each other as we found each other. Then there are other chairs that leave a butt print and so he gets up and wipes the seat off as he gets up. David and Isabelle went to the Eye to Eye Young Leader's Organizing Institute, where train their mentors and gear them up for the coming school year. They attended the portion of the institute designed for allies and former mentors of the program. Isabelle noticed that she found her way to where she needed to go on her first try, which has never happened at a conference before. It felt like reconnected with friends-in-waiting or long lost cousins. There were ample snacks and beverages. It just felt delightful and moving. David describes how this place has a different feeling to it because our nervous system operates differently. We didn’t have to get anxious to get where they needed to go. It’s this place where we see accommodations everywhere. We get to see both of it. There is no shame in this group of people to spin a fidget spinner, draw, or doodle, and people didn’t have to sit in nothingness. And the reason is mattered is that there so many things you normally have to think about, the anxiety level is so high, and halfway through the lecture, all Isabelle wants is a snack, and all she thinks about is the bar that she can’t get out of her bag, and then she is opening the notebook, the whole thing is hyper vigilance around how she is presenting. This was like instant unmasking, she didn't have to anxiously ask someone where to go. It’s incredible when the task isn’t being quiet, but the task is participation. You can eat crinkly snacks! David thinks about culture that we really have, that is a part of being neurodivergent. Any person who has to excuse why they’re running late, having an accommodation in school, not wanting to play scrabble—this is a cultural piece, when we see these things as a part of our culture, not our difference, and have them attended to, we feel safer. Oh my goodness, not having to fight for every moment to pay attention, gives us a lot more energy in a lot of ways. Isabelle names that where she has previously felt it were in places or spaces she would co-create. She has felt this before when visiting Poland, where her parents and family are from, and she’d have this sense of home. But this was the first time she had the feeling in a room of other people having the feeling. It’s like finding her home planet. Where has this been? I’m so happy it’s here! What is this feeling? This is the part of knowing you’re all of a sudden part of a group, you’re part of a group this world wasn’t built for, and you have to do it our way. And when you see hundreds of people not asking permission and not getting in trouble. People were attending to the task with incredible precision, and it’s an honor to watch these young people making the world we’re going to live in. David went the first time 20 years ago, and it’s the first time in his life someone made his learning style feel valuable. In his grad school program, one of his classmates was like “hey, you’re talking about ADHD, any interest in starting a program where they take college students with LDs and match them up with middle school students and seeing what happens?” And he gets ready for an interview with David Flink. He was interested in hearing his story but not in an exploitive way. It felt really holding, we’d love to have you be a mentor, come out to Brown university, we’ll teach you how to be a mentor. He’s at the OI, and David Flink and Marcus Soutra (Eye to Eye co-founders) are standing at the easel with Marcus and dream boarding stuff. Grady (if you hear this, David misses you and you changed his life!) was bouncing a racketball, and David looked around, waiting for him to get in trouble, and he looked around and no one cared. And they’re playing catch with this racketball and bouncing it off and playing this elaborate game during this presentation. At the same time we’re playing with these racketballs, obviously distracted. Marcus - “does anyone know how to spell benign?” This question usually makes David go small, and the room goes quiet and goes crickets. “All right then” he writes “B” and the number “9.” David realizes: "It’s not that we’re not paying attention because we're bouncing a ball; we're answering all the questions."  He wasn’t trying to hide, and he didn't get 'caught' and noticed he started to shake off the 'just about to be caught doing the thing I’m not supposed to be doing' feeling. He does 20 years with this, traveling around. And then a short while ago, one of the people closest to David, died. The moment he found out his brother was dying, David was talking with Jennifer Kane, saying “I’m done.” He never thought he would see anyone again. This reminded him to have hope in people, and people will surprise you. It started with 27 people sitting around the table, and now there’s levels of things and sophistication with apps and fidgets. Coming back and being amazed about how incredible this is. It’s like coming face to face with a dragon, but finding out it’s friendly, and then having it shrink to a size of a pea and living in your heart. 

To learn more about Eye to Eye, visit www.eyetoeyenational.org 

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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The power of not reacting out of impulse is a valuable skill that can lead to better decision-making, improved relationships, and overall personal growth.

In todays’ episode, we have an International Best-selling author & speaker - Thaddeus Lawrence who is here to break down the benefits of The Power Of Not Reacting Out Of Impulse. 

David and Isabelle navigated the treacherous landscape of surviving and being the lucky ones; are we trash? Are we seahorses? From defeating the enemy that is loose glitter, to brain regions resembling animals, to why it hurts when we beat up on ourselves, tackling the pain and looking at ourselves with intention.

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Isabelle was told she’s a talker, but she’s also a listener. There’s this thing Isabelle borrows from mindfulness practices and therapy ideas: what you resist persists, what you go with flows, go for the ride. She had this moment the other day, at what point is it going to be bore her? She is easily bored, she is initially excited about and then she loses interest in it, she can be hyper fixated on the thing and then it passes, and then why is it that she’s never been bored in a session—it’s never happened: when will it not be exciting or curious? It’s not the same thing as it being easy or effortless, challenge does not mean something isn’t fun, and maybe it’s one of her favorite things to do. David names: it’s amazing to be put into an environment where it’s dangerous if you don’t pay attention to listening, attending to the patterns and themes in the group—it’s almost what I’ve done in my entire life. Find ways to honor ourselves. I want someone to be able to look at me and respectfully out himself more often, and we don’t see the models are dysfunction. “This kid having ADHD and being in jail” is part of the story. Until everything is shiny! Glitter! Except loose glitter which is Isabelle’s worst nightmare. She learned, the hard way, that loose glitter found it’s way into her world, the moment you try to clean it up, it’s “this glitter will be here always.” The glitter’s arch nemesis is tape—you’re welcome everybody. You still have to sit there for hours, but it makes the cleanup satisfying. David has had the thought of rooms with too much glitter and thought: burn this room. Isabelle names that this is different when there is epoxy style glitter in a floor or a tile, or in a shoe—she loves how there’s a lot of glittery shoes, but the glitter is contained in a plastic shell. And there’s something amazing about the shiny but it needs to stay shiny and not be embedded in anyone’s skin. Isabelle's friend pointed this out: David has a pleasant voice, and Isabelle, back in high school, was on speech team, and she competed in radio speaking, where you essentially you get to be in a room separate from everybody and record into a microphone. That got her over her fear of public speaking, only they used tapes and tape recorders. Who knew? These little things, not exactly fate v. Free will—isn’t it interesting the things that had to come into play were miraculous or exponentially improbable. David thinks his survival in life is pretty lucky. Like LeDerick said, we’re statistically survivors, how did we get there? David is sometimes looking at a river and it’s all pristine and there’s this piece of trash attached to a log not getting sucked down the river, and that's him, he’s a piece of trash, and he got saved. He was powerless being swept by the current—a lot of us were—whether we found partners, or friends, or jobs or something. The odds of David getting an advanced degree, being in a counseling practice, and having the same diagnosis. There was a moment in their office, it was Isabelle’s first or second month, and we were talking about structure and stuff, and it went brain-seahorse. And David went “maybe…maybe…” and everyone else just saw, it’s going to go somewhere else. To finish the thought: once seahorses have partnered, upon the first rays of sunlight entering the ocean, they will do a synchronized dance to each other. Speaking of seahorses: the hippocampus is the part of the brain is responsible for episodic memory, ability to time stamp when something has happened in our life, seal it with a declarative context—and to connect it to David's trash metaphor, how a seahorse gets around: it attaches to kelp or seaweed and it floats on the currents, and it mates for life, and takes care of it’s babies, and it does not make sense, and it exists nonetheless. Isabelle doesn’t think we’re trash on a river, we’re the seahorses. David names that 50% of people with ADHD don’t graduate on time. Isabelle names: a lot seahorses don’t survive, statistically there’s so many don’t make it. David names there’s a lot of compassion and meaning to what we see—Isabelle is doing a lot of shaming to the trash. David is not trying to say we’re mistakes, but he doesn’t think the system sees value in us, but we have to see value in ourselves. You see me, I see you, grab my hand, we’ll do things together, we are trying to survive. David is never going to judge survival. Isabelle quotes Carl Rogers, when the potato sprouts, it’s doesn’t matter if it’s in the earth or in the root cellar, it will reach out toward the little shaft of light, and he talks about it as an actualizing tendency, we’re always going toward the sunlight, and everyone else is casting shame “silly potato” but it’s doing what it does. The labels that we put on things can be really distracting, and there’s a big debate about diagnosing, and David names that labels can be minimizing and restrictive, but with ADHD, there’s some power in that label, in knowing you’re not alone, that it’s really hard when you’re dealing with internal invisible motivational things, it's easy to think there’s something wrong with you, and you need to spend time with people that don’t make you feel like trash, and you spend time doing things, and you don’t trash yourself. But also, David identifies with the trash in the river. ANd things changed when he didn’t need the system to find value. How do you relate to yourself in seeing the value you hold and knowing that. It connects to internal family systems, there’s this interesting idea that the reason why when you’re beating yourself up, it causes actual pain—there’s another part, however small or exiled, there is another part that is taking that hit. When we’re beating ourselves up, a part of us is trying to convince the part that desperately doesn’t want it to be true. It’s like trying to beat down a part that inherently knows it has value. It’s not just practicing and noticing the strengths and the peaks, but also having the space and safety to grieve, that you had a lot more peaks, and lot of people missed it, and you were wrong about you, too—there's a whole reckoning. David would use this question to ground himself: “when did that not happen?” Oh, with these people, in that place, when I’m doing x—“where does it not happen?” Even looking at childhood, “my parents were always angry”—when were they not? This makes Isabelle think of your default neural network—you’re brain is going to always do the thing that it's most used to, because it’s more efficient to do the thing you do every day—if you’re not actively or intentionally trying to counter that, you’re going to coast—and if you’ve been knocked down, and you've been hit harder and felt it more acutely than most, and you’re default mode is going to be rough, and it does take concentrated effort to work with this, and that's where environments and community comes in.

 Dr. Daniel Siegel - the neurons that fire together, wire together

Coolest books about seahorses - Poseidon's Steed: The Story of Seahorses, from Myth to Reality by Dr. Helen Scales, Ph.D.

Carl Rogers quote “potato sprout”

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David and Isabelle grapple with flipping the focus from ADHD symptoms into strengths, as survivors in a neurotypically-geared world. From questioning why we don’t use our toes more often, to the Boxcar Children, to maybe "outgrowing ADHD" is more connected to growing up, having more power, and choosing your own adventure. 

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Isabelle struggles with going in and out doors, getting on/off escalators, and also not injuring herself or others in revolving doors—it’s like the old Far Side comic, “Midvale School for the Gifted” where the kid is pushing on the pull door. David names that it’s an engineering flaw, you’re supposed to intuitively know which way to open a door, there should be no handle on a push door, for example, it’s not all our fault. Most of Isabelle’s family does not live in this country, and she has memories of different light switches, or doors, or the placement of things in bathrooms, or where the handles are on shower heads—the way you habituate yourself in your space is so engrained. Every time they clean the little island on casters in the kitchen is moved, and the next day is a series of humans hitting things a lot and going “what?!” Isabelle would walk while reading a lot, she couldn’t handle transitions and she needed something in her hand to do, and as David points out it increases the degree of difficulty. She was reading Boxcar children, and also—what were we reading? It was going to be the best to live in a boxcar? And half the book was “and then Violet made curtains" and she oddly wanted to make curtains. And because she was walking and reading and she learned to pick up things with their toes. She can hold a pen with her toes, and she can probably write something with toes—why do we forget our toes are just foot fingers? If anything looks like it wants to be helpful, it's a toe. It wants to do more than just stabilize you while moving. Isabelle remembers flying across the Atlantic and is by herself (as a kid, maybe 10 years old) and she was sitting next to an older teen, backpacking, he was really nice. They were talking, and she never forgot this and she was a very nervous flyer and it meant a lot to be distracted by this, and had a regular size middle finger, and his middle toe was the exact same length as his middle finger. The middle toe was proportionate to the other toes, the foot looked normal, and it was a large, basketball player sized foot, he must’ve been tall? He had regular sized fingers, but his toe was the same size. David doesn’t know where to put this in his brain: in the black box never to be revisited. I mean, literally there’s a foot out there that can drive a car if needed, and also what is this happening to a 10 year old (he felt like a chill camp counselor, not creepy at all), and then you think: could you cook with it? Could you be flipping eggs on the pan? You learn how to do things with your feet—is it just a social norm that we don’t do things with our toes? Did you know that when you’re born blind you can’t have hallucinations—you have zero chance of having schizophrenia, because hallucinations can be smells, feelings, lots of things. When you don’t have eyes, the whole part of your brain gets usurped, their senses are so much more sophisticated, they can’t have random errors. What about ADHD brains: we are so used to having lots of thoughts in our brain, and it lends us to be in situations where we cannot have dysfunction where other people do. How a blind person doesn’t have any form of hallucination. There are a lot of environments built for us that make our differences disappear. This is not a one-size fits all for everyone: when people get their environmental needs met with ADHD, there are not problems. To someone having auditory hallucinations, that part of the brain that is activated when they hear someone talking, it’s actually happening (same part of the brain is happening)—to that person it’s indistinguishable. The other parts of the brain grow into that region that’s missed—more parts of the brain deal with other senses, and your brain is use-dependent, and it just fills it in and becomes more sophisticated, and it's very easy finding the ghosts in the machine. It’s better at picking up “this is not matching the pattern of reality” and because they’re using all their senses. Isabelle references a radiolab episode where a man uses echolocation, and using clicks, and can ride bicycles and stuff, and they’re picking up on the space and materials and everything just from the sound. Whatever the brain does it gets better at. As someone with ADHD, we’re superpowered? David is saying we are, and referencing D&D. Make some stat categories super low and others super high —I don’t care about wisdom and coordination, but my reflexes are really high. David, for example, looking at what teachers references: also likes to talk, really distracted by helping people, wants people to feel better, also highly distracted, food motivated. We get caught up on getting little David to do homework. We don’t get caught up on “that little David is so good at building social emotional connections to people.” How do we get that better? Little Susan is insanely good at video game play and programming—how do we get them MORE of that instead of “get them off the screens.” Is your strength just sitting in the car driving fast? That’s a strength. We (ADHD folx and people in the world) have to be careful to not see the negative first, we have to see the strength first. David can clearly see, take a minute listener and think of the people you knew were really good at, what did you want to do when you were left alone. How do those things line up with yourself now? “I used to have ADHD and then I grew out of it!” NO, you grew up and got old enough to choose your own adventures and now you’re fine! We have peaks and valleys and we have to think about the peaks more. 

Midvale School for the Gifted Far Side comic by Gary Larson

What were we reading? The Boxcar Children

A Beautiful Mind

Radiolab with echolocating man is actually an Invisibilia episode about Daniel Kish

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Cover Art by: Sol Vázquez

Technical Support by: Bobby Richards

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Isabelle and David reflect on going on 3 years of working on this podcast (note: this is now are 4th year working on it! WHAT?! WE LOVE YOU!) and how much the common way of interacting with inanimate objects is “did I break it?” And when we don’t, the realization of: “it’s more better!” Thinking about all the shiny neurodivergent folks gleaming around the planet, the power of your suggestions and ideas for shaping this podcast, and things we’ve learned as adults that changed the game (see: logos, gas station hacks, successfully getting everything for a recipe at the grocery store).

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David and Isabelle reflect on this being their 3rd anniversary of recording the podcast. David describes how he used to walk to Isabelle and Bobby’s place past a McDonald’s every time to record, mulling over what they would talk about or what they could do. But this McDonald’s had a lit awning but was also closed a bunch of the time, and was filled with the most awkward sidewalk and road configuration so you need to do a lot of things to find out they are closed. David would like to barter, somehow.  On Isabelle’s end she remembers getting the table ready after putting their kid down for bed, and getting excited to have a guest over. Almost everything is improved by snacking, but also less ice, is better. The two ponder about what to talk about, or going meta with the podcast. David wants to go there because it has been so cool to see what happened since we started this. We started wanting to remove the paywall from good information about ADHD, reduce suffering. The letters and emails we’ve gotten, the reviews we’ve seen posted, David is constantly in awe and reminded that sometimes people hear something we’ve talked about and it makes them feel less alone or more seen. It’s so cool that it’s happening so much. And he’s sitting with ADHD in that he doesn’t respond. “This person is amazing, their heart is true, and man, I need to sit down and write an honest letter that matches the energy.” Isabelle is trying so hard to respond. David cries and wants to respond, and here is his verbal accommodation to responding. It’s really incredible and rewarding in ways he wouldn’t have thought. For Isabelle, it relates a delayed gratification time, having a roughly regular way of interacting with David is so rewarding.  For a long time in person, this was the lifeline to getting to see each other and it is delightful and brought me so much, and then she turns to Bobby and goes “have you listened to the podcast?” Because they actually use this in their every day life. Let’s figure that out. In terms of the immediacy of what this means, every time she goes to listen and edits old episodes, it’s delightful, and then she gets something from it. And then she sits and edits and gets better and faster and it’s not her chosen profession, so she’s picked up a lot as she’s gone. And then she feels the growing load of never putting this out and it’s fine as long as there’s an episode up. And then we get a review, or a letter, or an email, and it’s like holy flying pieces of flaming something. And then it's a conversation. You’re listening on the other end of this. And she listens to the other end of this, she’s just listener, too. It makes her think of the first “X-Men” movie and Professor X in his machine, Cerebro, and seeing all of the shiny people all around the world. And David names, we can struggle with premeditation, and not rehearsing, or scripting anything, but these are very real conversations that can feel scary and vulnerable because they’re not here. There are certain topics and suggestions that lots of people have written in and we’ve been so excited to cover them and maybe do it. It’s really helpful if people tell us “give us more information on x” and that gives us structure, or like help me with littles, and how do we sit here and deal with partners, how do you reclaim a life when you learn you’re neurodivergent into your later adulthood?  What might be really great, and maybe do a conversation around them, there are no capital A answers, but there are lots of answers to these things. We should rope in more people so we have more ways of talking about it, both from parents and non-parents, and more of a Q&A roundtable - and maybe we make it an event, a virtual, zoom type things. David gets balloons no matter what. On Isabelle’s scale of decorations, the top one is little paper accordions made of tissue paper, loves the opening of party decorations and then she closes them and they are flat. David has kept some of those up because why would you take them down. It’s like a 3D animation, now it’s flat and now it’s slowly getting not flat. Am I going to break it? It’s more better!  This sums up half of Isabelle’s interactions with inanimate objects. Giant learning moments of things you didn’t know until way late and it changed the game: David was in his late 20s when he learned how to spell kitchen, and he got it and it was funny, but he did learn how to spell that word. That’s a hard word! Isabelle’s kid is in that ‘teaching himself to read’ kind of state, and describing the difference between “to,” “too,” and “two” —try explaining that to a kid. And David thinks the English language is needlessly insane and he hates it. And in case anyone doesn’t know, Isabelle sits there and types out the show notes. The word she has never once spelled accurately—not to brag, but she was the 3rd place winner of the Polish National Alliance spelling bee (which is in English)—she never spells accommodate. There are too many consonants in “kitchen.” And there’s so many words David can’t spell that don’t matter, but if you have to do it every day. Neurochemistry makes sense—he can spell amygdala - “Amy G Dala.” He realized excitement and enthusiasm is an accommodation for anxiety. You can choose to label the experience differently. David was prepping for an event and he was chomping at the bit to go on and then he started jumping up and down and shadowboxing and he's doing these moves and all of a sudden, all of that pent up anxiety was embodied into excitement in his body. That’s something he's done again and again in life. Every once in a while, he will think of something he wants to cook, goes to the store, gets all that he needs, and then prepping things-and that’s some sexiness right there. He feels so good when he does that. This makes Isabelle think of porn for housewives (so sexist)-novelty books—and you open this up and it is pictures of very generically handsome men and women of all stripes just doing various household tasks, the word bubbles are saying things like “I scheduled all the kids’ doctor’s appointments and picked up dinner” and it's just a task, and what David just described all those sequences, preparation, initiating and follow through — very sexy for an ADHD brain. And David has learned he has to have to have all the ingredients have to fit on the post it note and he can’t do any other shopping and it can only be to get ingredients for that meal. And if he adds more, he'll get 35%-95% of it—has to be a targeted mission. That makes Isabelle think of how to try to make gf baking ten years before there were mixes, and the kinds of things she forced herself to eat, because she worked so hard on them. It totally blew Isabelle’s mind that logos had more to them than just letters—she didn’t learn this until this last year. And it makes fun to look at, and you realize how much work put people into it and you have to be very talented. Two things she learned within the last five years: how to remember which side of the car the gas tank is on? You can look at the little gas tank icon on your dash and there’s an arrow next to it, and...

While we reunite (in person!) and prep some amazing new episodes, here's one of our top ever: ever wonder if it’d be easier to be partnered with someone who also has ADHD (or, someone who is neurotypical)? How can you coexist no matter what the combo platter of neurodivergence? Robin, David’s neurotypical partner, and Bobby, Isabelle’s neurodivergent partner, join a relationship round table filled with practical tips on how neurotypical and neurodivergent partners can better support, communicate, and respond in key moments with one another.

For our younger ears: there is a swear in the last minute of the episode. Be warned.
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ADHD is often scapegoated within relationships. David & Isabelle are joined by David’s partner, Robin, who is neurotypical, and Isabelle’s husband, Bobby, who also has ADHD. David describes his friendship with Noah, who also has ADHD, and how the two of them have different and complementary needs and accommodation styles (for example, Noah likes structure and being on time, David is more accommodated by not wanting to let Noah down). How relationships could look when people are aware of what they are good at, not so good at, and that they need to work differently. This is similar to how when Bobby and Isabelle were first diagnosed, they had very different ways of experiencing ADHD and their sample size (“but wait, Isabelle’s more organized, she can’t have ADHD!”) impacted their understanding of it. David and Robin describe how Robin gives David a part of a shelf—a place where he could freely be messy and do his thing. Like spots that she, as his neurotypical partner, does not try to manage. The group goes on a tangent about cockroaches running up legs and spiders in your mouth while you sleep (see below). David also observes that Robin does not ask him to do a lot of things so when she does ask him, it feels novel and he received instant gratification for doing the task, so he’s more likely to do it (and eager to please the person he loves). This also connects to how Robin asks him to sweep or clean up crumbs (more thoroughly). Isabelle notes Robin’s warmth—and recognizes that Isabelle and Bobby both aren’t as warm to each other around this feedback. Robin points out that Isabelle (having ADHD) may not see the feedback as it goes, and instead notices the feedback when she’s already overwhelmed. Isabelle and Bobby note what they call a Great America moment (see below) and notes how she was able to observe Bobby circling around distracted, like a shark, and that she was able to see he needed a different environment to complete his tasks and was able to choose to go to Great America anyway (for herself): in short, she didn’t have to jump into the shark circling herself. David points out that children (which he does not have) are like the loveliest hedonist parrots (which Isabelle and Bobby add: are also the best thing ever). David also talks about mirror neurons and how people with ADHD can have much more active empathic responses, where they can really sync up to the moods/emotions of the people around them. As Bobby is circling like a shark, Isabelle’s mirror neurons are activated and she is syncing up, but Isabelle does not need the same level of intensity. How to know when you don’t need that level of intensity, knowing when you can’t think your way out of that circle (AKA Great American moment). Also important and hard to notice when you’ve self-stimulated yourself into some intense emotion but then your next task doesn’t need it. Hard to see yourself clearly in these escalated moments and how a partner can see you more clearly sometimes and help reflect back boundaries or what you need. And so when Isabelle syncs up to Bobby, she’s trying to soothe them both, instead of paying attention to taking a break and NOT syncing up, which will help them both. Bobby notes that podcast recording sessions helps everyone. Robin also names times when she and David need to ask for what they need to sync up (or not sync up). David will call and give her a heads up telling her he’s ‘coming in hot’ from his commute/work time, when she’s on the couch horizontal watching the Office or Park and Rec—how they try to meet them halfway. How both David and Isabelle forget their age all the time. 

For more show notes, go to somethingshinypodcast.com

Why is the cockroach named Rick? For no reason, except David and Robin like alliteration. 

Isabelle mentions a sacred pact between humans and bugs? Well, it’s an ancient truce predicated on the idea that if a bug is around, that’s fine, we’re on their turf, really, but if a bug is on your body without you electing to have said bug on your body, or the bug is on your bed or perhaps in the bath/shower with you, you will use whatever means necessary to remove said bug from said body/bath/shower/bed. 

What is the Great America moment? Let’s say a group of people all want to go to an amazing thrill-ride packed amusement park (like Great America, a Six Flags park in scenic Gurnee, IL), but they’re waiting on one person to finish their work before they go. Instead of making the whole group miss out if that person doesn’t get their work done, you can honor both sets of needs: let the person finish their work and then also let the rest of the group go to Great America. Then circle back and plan another time to go together. The idea is that the person struggling shouldn’t feel the pressure/responsibility of everyone else’s ‘good time’ and that everyone can hold boundaries make autonomous choices that are also understanding and inclusive. 

DEFINITIONS

Self esteem:  is a global term that has to do with how you feel about yourself, your own sense of self-worth. One thing to consider is that with ADHD, self-esteem can be believing you're going to survive an experience: that the moment of discomfort you're experiencing will be worth it it in the future. This is hard to do when your sense of time can be two modes (now or not now). When everything feels like NOW, it's hard to believe in a later or a change or in growth. And when you believe you can do something, it dramatically increases the odds that you will actually do that thing. Self-esteem is believing that you can survive, you can do the thing, and you don't have to convince yourself of that all over again every time.

Mirror neurons: this is a very complex neurological phenomenon, that is a particular favorite of ours. When you are doing a thing, your brain fires motor neurons (eg. if you know how to ski, your brain will fire the motor fires that help you move on your skis). Mirror neurons fire when you are witnessing (or anticipating) someone else do a thing that your motor neurons do (eg. your mirror neurons fire AS IF YOU ARE SKIING, when you are watching skiing on tv). Put another way, your brain is inhibiting you from acting out what you're witnessing/anticipating, but other than that, you're copying the things you see/anticipate seeing. Think about how much we learn vicariously, through observation and then trying something you've only seen before (like a baby learning how to walk! or draw! or pretty much anything!) The more they're understood, the more we recognize that mirror neurons are also involved in recognizing emotional states and sharing your emotions with others (firing the pathways of movements we do when sad/happy/angry, e...

Isabelle and David explore more strengths of neurodivergence, such as adaptability and responding in crisis/pressure situations (like a Ferrari on a racetrack, versus the parking lot of practice), and explore the question: why do we use so many qualifiers? Saying things like “I know I’m talking too fast,” to “nerd alert!” to “I know you hate me and want to kill me, but…” thinking about how we try to make ourselves appear aware, or harmless, or signal our vulnerability or fear of being put into a box, and how curiosity can work in our favor to make this a conscious choice rather than an automatic habit. 

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David shares the stat that is most closely tied to income (not your test scores or math scores or writing ability)…but your vocabulary, the words you understand. It’s connected to travel, how well you can shift between different environments and understand things. We’re so used to thinking about things in different ways we may not even realize how adept we are at traveling between worlds. Isabelle recognizes how the oral tradition, storytelling, there’s some things she doesn’t take away from the written word that she takes away from hearing about it. How wonderful is it that she found her way into a profession where her role is a listener. She may not regurgitate all the info or nail that standardized test but If you look at her facility to adapt to novel or unusual or crisis circumstances, she wouldn’t trade all her masking for that ability, because she can chameleon her way through a lot of situations. She was recently on a panel and hadn’t been in front of so many humans in a long time. And she noticed that she doesn’t necessarily have the same stress response others have. When they were practicing for the panel, she didn’t do as well and the other amazing panelists seemed at home. When it came time to do it, she got in the zone, and their nerves were visible and it changed their performance. They went from being so organized and put together and getting nervous, whereas she noticed she was more at home and at ease under pressure. All these intangible but real things that we don’t give ourselves credit for. David names that her brain has always been a Ferrari, and when they’re doing the pre-planning, that’s like driving around a parking lot. It would be clunky. The panel itself was the racetrack and she could let herself go. This brings David to something he noticed lately when talking with his lovely colleague; he said “I know you’re going to kill me and hate me, but…I like football.” And his colleague pointed out that he says that sometimes. And his brain opened up the neurodivergent qualifier canyon—“but, I dunno, is it? I do” All the “am I taking up too much space? Talking too fast? Moving too much?” It’s something David has worked on so much. When we’re qualifying, we’re taking ammo out of someone else’s arsenal. We say the thing we’re scared someone is going to say to us, then when someone says something terrible to us, we’re not upset. David notices he does this with things he really, really likes but that he has a conflict around.  He’s owning that he’s a really, really big football fan. And he’s the only football fan in his family, this wasn’t handed down, this was something he stumbled on that he loves. He’s also spent the last 30 years studying brains, trauma, and behavior, so it’s complicated, but he still loves football. He says “don’t kill me, I love football” as a way of saying “don’t worry, I know football is bad, it’s a guilty pleasure.” But in all moments when qualifiers come out, we disrupt other people’s agency. The questions need to be okay. The conflicts need to be okay. We’re allowed to be guarded, we’re allowed to be vulnerable, but it’s not always easy liking little shiny things, because you might like a shiny thing that someone else doesn’t like. The qualifiers are the ways we use language to soften blows for ourselves, to stop our rocket from fully going wild across the field, they’re like really sophisticated bumper guards. It’s a part of having self esteem hits from ADHD, but it’s not all bad. This makes Isabelle think of how many qualifiers she uses in a moment let alone a day. It also makes her think of how she first came across qualifiers in a book on negotiation that calls them accusational audits, where you disarm someone’s argument by naming the thing you think they’ll use against you (e.g. ‘I know I’m young and experienced, but…”) She also thinks she uses phrases like “nerd alert” and “get ready, I’m about to geek out on you…” because there’s a lot about herself she was the last to find out about. She feels like she’s the last to know and she misses a lot. That’s also a strength/vulnerability of neurodivergence, the sense of our own self-appraisal being off, and/or really knowing our own limits. It’s like a way to broadcast to the world, “hey, don’t worry, I may be ten steps behind, but there’s a thin line of awareness here, there is a fin on this rocket, it’s way back here, but don’t worry!” Like a little person holding a kite string to the rocket. David is also joining this, qualifiers aren’t good or bad, “how come I didn’t know that?” But noticing where it shows up in safe and secure relationships. Qualifiers around “did that make sense?” And “I’m going to sum it up here” all make sense as cues to the listener, but where are we most vulnerable and what things make us create qualifiers. It’s interesting to David that it comes up at work, where he doesn’t feel very guarded—it doesn’t strike him as a choice, it’s part of the ADHD repetoire. If he thinks about it as a symptom, it feels gross. If he thinks about it as a behavior, he feels better.  A behavior is just a thing, it’s neutral on it’s own: this is my dunking the basketball behavior, this is my crying the corner behavior, it’s just a thing. So, to make sure she understands, Isabelle checks that qualifiers are indeed the judgments you say about the thing that you fear someone will say about the thing that you put out there ahead of time. Maybe another way of saying “vulnerability alert, vulnerability alert” or “no harm meant!” Showing your soft underbelly. But yet, we’re often saying qualifiers about the behaviors we’re doing that are automatic (like talking quickly, changing topics, going on tangents, talking a lot, etc.) and also the qualifying itself is a behavior that is connected to ADHD. David explains that you know it’s automatic when you don’t choose to do it (or not do it). The first thing we do to change a behavior is to observe it, just observing it changes it. He doesn’t need people to hold him accountable or say it to him while he’s talking, but he wants to notice it so he can choose where it happens so that the qualifiers don’t get in the way of building intimacy. It’s like the idea of toastmasters, if you’re trying to practice doing something like speaking, you gotta take away the qualifiers. It makes Isabelle think of pickle ball and how she was clunky and loving it but found herself qualifying and apologizing a lot, and her friend/coach told her “when you do that a lot, you take the fun out of it.” It sets you up to accept yourself differently, she just accepted she’s a poor pickle ball player and it was more fun. And it also means you get to play more because you need safety and trust to start to play. It’s so hard to play when you’re busy going “don’t hurt me, don’t kill me.” It’s like farting in the waiting room. No one wants that. It’s like two dogs doing cute little play bow, and one dog starts going “i’m sorry, I’m sorry,” the other dog stops going play...