product framework

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Ayo Omojola is Chief Product Officer at Carbon Health, one of the fastest-growing and most innovative health tech companies in the world. Previously, he was a PM leader at Cash App, where he co-created the Cash Card and scaled it to a nine-figure revenue line for Square. He’s also an angel investor in companies like Mercury, Modern Treasury, Faire, and many others. In this episode, we discuss:

• How Cash App broke through the noise and became a consumer app success story

• Why small teams are better than big ones

• Hard-won lessons on team building and hiring

• Why it’s “criminal” not to connect people in your network to things that they need

• Why you sometimes shouldn’t listen to experts

• The importance of first-principles thinking

• Advice for health tech founders

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/frameworks-for-product-differentiation-team-building-and-thinking-from-first-principles-ayo-omojola-carbon-health-cash-app/#transcript

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Where to find Ayo Omojola:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/ay_o

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omojola/

• Blog: https://kunle.app/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Ayo’s background

(04:13) The story of how Ayo used Quora for discoverability 

(06:44) The scale of Cash App 

(07:37) What Cash App did well

(10:12) Lessons from building consumer apps 

(13:08) Why it’s so important to be different

(14:08) What Ayo learned from how Square/Block operates

(16:36) How to succeed at building a startup within a startup

(19:06) How Ayo transitioned from fintech to health tech

(22:51) Why Ayo loves hiring founders 

(28:32) Team-building strategies

(32:12) The importance of going deep and challenging assumptions

(36:58) Why you should always ask questions

(38:45) Lessons in leadership

(41:43) Advice for founders in the health-care space

(44:48) What Carbon Health is

(46:58) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Ayo on Quora: https://www.quora.com/profile/Ayo-Omojola

• Carbon Health: https://carbonhealth.com/

• Cash App: https://cash.app/

• Lob: https://www.lob.com/

• Mailform: https://www.mailform.io/

• Venmo: https://venmo.com/

• PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/us/home

• Apple Cash: https://www.apple.com/apple-cash/

• Square: https://squareup.com/us/en/home/

• Block: https://block.xyz/

• Pinwheel: https://www.pinwheelapi.com/

• The Three-Body Problem: https://www.amazon.com/Three-Body-Problem-Cixin-Liu/dp/0765382032

• Children of Time: https://www.amazon.com/Children-of-Time

• Children of Memory: https://www.amazon.com/Children-Memory-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/

• Children of Ruin: https://www.amazon.com/Children-Ruin-Time-Adrian-Tchaikovsky/

• Stormlight Archive: https://www.amazon.com/Stormlight-Archive-Boxed-Set-Books/

• Fire in the Deep: https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Deep-Robert-J-Miller/

• War of the Worlds on Amazon Prime: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.49a287c2-44ed-4ffc-afa0-fab86dd0d31d

• Succession on HBO Max: https://play.hbomax.com/player/urn:hbo:episode:GWukCJAu0e4uHwwEAAAB5

• No Context Succession on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nocontextroyco

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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Casey Winters is a longtime and legendary advisor and operator. He’s worked with companies like Airbnb, Faire, Canva, Whatnot, Thumbtack, Tinder, and Reddit and until recently was the Chief Product Officer at Eventbrite, where he managed the PM, design, research, and growth marketing teams. Before Eventbrite, he led growth and product teams at Pinterest and Grubhub. In today’s episode, we discuss what Casey calls the “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager and how to avoid becoming one. He provides valuable insights on thinking outside popular frameworks, shipping products efficiently, and avoiding overreliance on user research. We explore the three types of network effects, how to leverage them, and how to break someone else’s network effect. Finally, Casey shares his contrarian approach to interviewing product managers and his thoughts on the future of PM roles with AI.

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Find the full transcript at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey-winters-pinterest-eventbrite-airbnb-tinder-canva-reddit-grubhub/

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Where to find Casey Winters:

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/onecaseman

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caseywinters/

• Blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Casey’s background

(03:36) What Casey is up to

(05:24) Why the CPO position is frequently short-lived

(07:26) What Casey learned in his role as CPO of Eventbrite

(10:15) The “zero interest rate phenomenon” product manager

(12:17) Advice for thinking outside common frameworks

(18:35) When to bring in research

(21:16) What Whatnot does

(21:59) Casey’s approach to interviewing PMs 

(23:29) Red flags in interview responses

(24:27) The future of product management with AI

(27:47) Founder intuition vs. team expertise

(33:33) How to influence founders

(37:17) Adding the delivery driver app at Grubhub

(40:00) Network effects

(43:10) Why Zillow is a sticky product

(44:05) How Grubhub’s network effect got taken over by DoorDash and Uber Eats

(51:47) Don’t underestimate the competition

(54:43) SaaS adding marketplace and vice versa

(01:02:30) Defining marketplaces

(1:03:34) What Substack is nailing

(1:05:43) Tips for B2C subscription startups

(1:13:15) Lightning round

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Referenced:

• Casey Winters on Lenny’s Podcast previously: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-sell-your-ideas-and-rise-within-your-company-casey-winters-eventbrite/

• Whatnot: https://www.whatnot.com/

• The 700-calorie breakfast you should eat if you want to live forever, according to futurist Ray Kurzweil: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-ray-kurzweil-eats-to-live-forever-2016-4

• The Way of the Gun on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/movie/the-way-of-the-gun-0fc9590c-3f85-48ab-96e9-1da1b9695065

• Notion AI: https://www.notion.so/product/ai

• Zapier: https://zapier.com/

• Founder intuition vs. team expertise vs. customer expertise: https://caseyaccidental.com/founder-intuition-team-expertise/

• Erika Warren on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erika-warren/

• Alyssa Ravasio (Hipcamp) on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alyssa-ravasio-23114717/

• Marketplace supply strategy: comprehensive, exclusive, or curated: https://a16z.com/2021/03/31/marketplace-supply-strategy/

• Nassim Taleb on Twitter: https://twitter.com/nntaleb

• The Innovator’s Dilemma: The Revolutionary Book That Will Change the Way You Do Business: https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244

• OpenTable: https://www.opentable.com/

• Booking.com: https://www.booking.com/

• Faire: https://www.faire.com/

• How to increase your retention: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-increase-your-retention-issue

• The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement: https://www.amazon.com/Goal-Process-Ongoing-Improvement/dp/0884271951

• Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/0374533555/r

• Profit from the Core: A Return to Growth in Turbulent Times: https://www.amazon.com/Profit-Core-Return-Growth-Turbulent/dp/1422131114/

• Party Down on Starz: https://www.starz.com/us/en/series/party-down/2011

• The Last of Us on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/the-last-of-us

• Station Eleven on HBO Max: https://www.hbomax.com/series/urn:hbo:series:GYZWoOQ6F9cLDCAEAAABP

• Kicking and Screaming on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/70052286

• Raven by Kelela on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/06uhdSmIYrWRkdnAPjcRcT

• Optical Delusion by Orbital on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/2jQbFspnSh7erex6RDKQGJ

• Stakes Is High by De La Soul on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/3jlC2uhYNrhikZXLviEnpu

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

Before getting into teaching full-time, Gibson Biddle was VP of Product at Netflix and CPO at Chegg (a textbook rental and homework help company). He now spends his days speaking, writing, and hosting workshops on product leadership, strategy, and culture. There are very few people in the world who’ve worked with, and had an impact on, more product managers.

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Thank you to our sponsors for making this episode possible:

• Flatfile: flatfile.com/lenny

• Coda: coda.io/lenny

• PostHog: posthog.com/lenny

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In this episode, we cover:

1) Gibson’s career path to VP of Product at Netflix, CPO at Chegg, and eventually teaching full-time.

2) The DHM model: The 3 factors of a product strategy for consumer companies, how you can apply it to your product strategy, and how Gibson used this model for decisions made at Netflix.

3) Five mini case studies of the DHM model that could be applied to Netflix’s strategy.

4) The GEM prioritization model: What are the 3 areas a company can optimize on? What is the fundamental misalignment that destroys startups? 

5) How could you start building your product strategy muscle, even when you’re only two weeks into your new role?

6) Building your personal board of directors.

7) What does it take to become a CPO someday?

8) What specifics in a daily routine separate a good product manager from a great product manager?

9) What’s the one piece of advice Gibson has for product managers in their early career?

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Where to find Gibson:

• Ask Gib Product Newsletter: https://askgib.substack.com/

• Gibson’s baby website: www.gibsonbiddle.com

• Intro to product strategy: https://gibsonbiddle.medium.com/intro-to-product-strategy-60bdf72b17e3

Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe