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    #237 – Steve Viscelli: Trucking and the Decline of the American Dream

    enNovember 03, 2021

    Podcast Summary

    • The Decline of the American Dream for Long-Haul TruckingFormer trucker-turned-sociologist Steve Viscelli explores the transformation of long-haul trucking from a desirable job to a difficult one. He emphasizes the value of listening and learning from others, regardless of their background or profession.

      Steve Viscelli, a former truck driver turned sociologist, talks about the decline of the American Dream for long-haul trucking. In his book "The Big Rig Trucking," he explores how long-haul trucking went from being one of the best blue-collar jobs to becoming one of the toughest jobs. He is currently working on a new book about autonomous trucking called "Driverless Autonomous Trucks and the Future of the American Trucker." In this podcast, he shares his experience of working with truckers as an ethnographer, where he talks about the importance of being a good listener and learning from others. He believes that every person has something to teach you, and everyone’s story is worth listening to.

    • Understanding the Life of Truckers through Data Analysis and Personal InterviewsTo learn about the experiences of truckers, approach them with specific questions and get to know them personally. Look for truckers in lounges or truck stops and visit towns with high concentrations of trucking populations.

      Steve Viscelli spent years sitting with trucking data to understand the problems and questions in the industry. His ideal interviews consist of asking truckers to tell him about their lives as truckers, but the reality is that they don't know what he's interested in. As a result, Viscelli prepares by getting to know the person and the central questions he wants to explore. He records audio during the interview and approaches truckers in lounges or truck stops to get their stories. Truckers have unique experiences that are rich with stories, and they often struggle with the impact of their jobs on their families. To find regular folk with stories, Viscelli recommends going to truck stops or towns with large trucking populations.

    • The Diversity and Challenges of the Truck Driving IndustryTruck driving offers opportunities for immigrants, people of color, and women, but learning to operate the complex machinery is a challenge. Despite being a last-resort job for some, truck drivers are open to conversations about their industry.

      Truck driving is a diverse industry, with immigrants, people of color, and women entering it, although there are still barriers for women. When becoming a truck driver, there is a steep learning curve to master the truck's complex and powerful machinery, especially the foundational skill of shifting. Truck driving has become a last-resort job for many people who have lost jobs in other industries or can no longer work in physically demanding jobs like construction. Truck drivers are generally open and willing to have conversations, which can be a valuable experience for those interested in learning more about the industry.

    • The Demands of Driving a Truck: Skill, Practice, and PressureTrucking is a challenging job that requires skill, practice, and the ability to handle pressure. Experienced drivers avoid danger with good habits and understanding of traffic patterns while new drivers must adapt and learn precision over time.

      Trucking is a high-stress job that requires a lot of skill and practice. New drivers are put under intense pressure as they are being tested to see if they can handle the job. The job is not for everyone, as some people may freeze up under stress. Long-haul driving requires good habits and understanding traffic patterns, so skilled drivers can avoid dangerous situations altogether. Local driving requires practice and routine as drivers have to get used to turning and backing up a trailer with precision. It can take years to become calm and comfortable in the job, and experienced drivers are highly skilled.

    • The Inefficiency of Pay Per Mile System for Truck DriversPay per mile system for truck drivers is becoming inefficient due to the increase in non-driving tasks. Trucking companies should factor in these tasks to incentivize efficiency and improve the supply chain optimization.

      Steve Viscelli, a former truck driver, shared that he started out earning only 25-26 cents per mile and had a minimum pay of $500 a week. However, as a poor graduate student, he found this to be real money. The typical starting pay for drivers now is in the range of 30-35 cents per mile. The pay per mile system was invented when drivers couldn't be surveyed, but is now becoming inefficient because drivers are spending more time doing non-driving tasks, such as waiting for loads. Truck drivers are paid per mile, but the amount of time spent waiting is not factored in, resulting in low incentives for the optimization of the supply chain to make truck labor more efficient.

    • Challenges in Securing a Well-Paying Job in the Trucking IndustryTo secure a good-paying trucking job, drivers need years of accident-free driving experience. It is important to note that the industry's practice of paying by miles driven can result in drivers earning less than minimum wage, and working long hours. Implementing minimum wage compensation can potentially increase driver salaries and eliminate the current shortage of truck drivers.

      The trucking industry is highly segmented with only a few dozen large companies dominating the entry-level segment. To secure a well-paying truck driving job, a driver must have several years of accident-free driving experience. The industry has traditionally paid drivers by the miles driven, while minimizing the hours they log to bypass government regulations. This results in many drivers earning less than minimum wage and often working over 80-90 hours a week. According to the Department of Labor, drivers should be paid minimum wage for every hour they are dispatched away from home. If this were implemented, the truck driving industry could have a minimum wage of $55,000-$60,000, potentially eliminating the current shortage of truck drivers.

    • The Challenges and Externalities of TruckingTruck drivers face grueling working conditions with little bargaining power, while the industry's externalities persist. Public subsidies for training only exacerbate the issue of low pay and high turnover.

      Trucking is a grueling job that requires extensive training, often at the considerable cost of the driver. Furthermore, the job is psychologically taxing as drivers may spend hours waiting without compensation, causing their time to become worthless. The industry argues that the compensation-based output is a solution; however, with the addition of satellite-linked computers, this argument is no longer valid. With the significant externalities caused by the industry, such as diesel particulates and family separation, trucking is the cheapest and most competitive way to move freight, giving drivers little bargaining power. Public subsidy of training exacerbates the issue, perpetuating the cycle of low pay and high turnover.

    • The Pros and Cons of the US Trucking IndustryThe US trucking industry is profitable due to lower costs than trains, but job quality and wages have declined since the 1970s. Some truck drivers receive publicly subsidized training and it is seen as a tangible job option.

      The trucking industry in the US is profitable because companies do not have to pay for externalities such as subsidized training for workers or the cost of infrastructure. Furthermore, trucks are cheaper than trains for transportation, especially for shorter trips. However, the job quality and wages for truck drivers have declined since the golden age of trucking in the 1970s when there was a powerful trucking union that controlled employee jobs and wages. Today, there are good and bad jobs in the trucking industry, with some workers receiving publicly subsidized training to become truck drivers. Additionally, there is a perception of trucking as an attractive and tangible job, especially for those who do not want to work in an office.

    • The Complicated History of Unions in the Trucking IndustryDespite skepticism from new drivers, experienced ones recognize the benefits of unions like the Teamsters, which tied wages to productivity and understood that workers did better when their employers did better. Corruption in trucking often stemmed from colluding employers, leading to excessive competition and lower profits for drivers.

      The trucking industry has a complicated history with unions, as experienced drivers tend to appreciate the benefits of belonging to a union while new drivers tend to be more skeptical. However, even non-union drivers from the past longed for the days of the Teamsters, as they recognized the overall market impact that the union had. Contrary to popular belief, unions like the Teamsters tied wages to productivity and understood that workers did better when their employers did better. The corruption in trucking was often initiated by employers who colluded with labor to limit competition, but this ultimately led to excessive competition and lower profits for drivers. Overall, the trucking industry has a range of jobs, including private and for-hire carriers, and the latter tend to pay less due to increased competition.

    • Understanding the Two Main Types of Trucking JobsThe trucking industry comprises truckload and less than truckload transport jobs. Although truck driving can offer mastery and insight, it can be a challenging and isolating lifestyle that affects personal relationships.

      Steve Viscelli, a former truck driver, explains that the trucking industry is divided into two main types of jobs: truckload, which involves transporting a full trailer of goods from point A to point B, and less than truckload, which involves transporting smaller amounts of goods from multiple points to a terminal, where they are consolidated into a trailer for final delivery. While there is pride in mastery and seeing behind-the-scenes places, truck driving can also be a lonely and difficult lifestyle that takes a toll on personal relationships and can leave drivers feeling disconnected from their families.

    • The Fragility and Inefficiency of the US Supply ChainThe COVID-19 pandemic exposed the vulnerability of long supply chains and the need for flexibility to better adapt to unexpected events. Panic buying and a shift in consumer behavior resulted in inefficiencies and waste.

      Steve Viscelli, a former truck driver, highlights the fragility and inefficiency of the US supply chain, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic. The pandemic has revealed the lean nature of long supply chains and how they are not resilient to changes in human behavior. Panic buying only exacerbated the already existing issue of inefficiency in the supply chain. Additionally, the shift from eating out to eating at home has changed the demand for food, resulting in surplus inventory for warehouses and suppliers, ultimately leading to waste. There is a need for a more flexible and adaptable supply chain to deal with unexpected events better.

    • Resilient and Tech-Enabled Supply Chains in the Post-COVID EraTo build a stronger supply chain, companies should focus on reducing bottlenecks and waste by increasing resilience, leveraging technology solutions like data collection, and exploring opportunities presented by autonomous trucks.

      The COVID-19 pandemic has exposed weaknesses in the supply chain and highlighted the need for a more robust system. Bottlenecks and waste are some of the issues that occur due to the long lean supply chains that are currently in place. The solution to this issue involves building a less densely connected supply chain and making it more resilient. Technology solutions, such as collecting more data, are also important to create a solid model for managing inventory and available transportation mechanisms. Autonomous trucks are an exciting technological development, but they have also raised concerns about job loss. However, there may be opportunities for individual owner-operators who can take advantage of this technology.

    • The Future of Transportation: How Self-Driving Trucks Will Transform Industries and Create New JobsSelf-driving trucks will have a significant impact on our supply chains, landscapes, and the fight against climate change. While there may be job losses initially, new opportunities and jobs will emerge. It's up to us to shape the future of this transformative technology.

      Self-driving trucks are a transformative technology that will not simply replace human-driven trucks, but reshape supply chains, landscapes, and even our ability to fight climate change. While initial impact on existing industries, especially drivers, may be hard, it will create new opportunities and jobs that are yet difficult to imagine. The key question is not to predict the future, but what we want the future to be and how we shape it. The importance of self-driving trucks was recognized early by the defense department and Congress, which prioritized funding for unmanned ground vehicles nearly two decades ago, leading to the recent breakthroughs in the field.

    • The History and Challenges of Autonomous VehiclesTechnology is crucial to human advancement, but realizing self-driving vehicles presents unique challenges. Innovators like Google and Tesla are taking risks to make it happen, but failure is a possibility.

      The progress made in autonomous vehicle technology started from a vision of automating part of the military supply chain. This resulted in billions of dollars and trillions of dollars in hype and transformative effects. A key takeaway from this conversation is that technology is what makes us human, and the ability to conceive of something in your mind and bring it into reality is what makes it great. However, the realization of self-driving vehicles poses unique challenges, and it will be the biggest technology failure story in human history if it doesn't happen. But despite the hurdles, companies like Google, Tesla, and others are willing to take big risks and innovate to make this a reality.

    • The Potential of Self-Driving Trucks in Transforming the Trucking IndustryThough fully autonomous driving may not be here yet, incremental advancements like lane-keeping systems can make driving more efficient and less stressful. Innovation will play a major role in transforming the industry.

      Innovations like self-driving trucks have the potential to transform the trucking industry just as paved roads, air-filled tires, and the internal combustion engine did. While the dream of fully autonomous driving may still be years away, current technology like lane-keeping systems can provide a more pleasant driving experience for truckers by reducing stress and increasing efficiency. Incremental design decisions can make all the difference in technologies, just like the Blackberry versus iPhone or the smartphone keyboard versus touchscreen. Automation in trucking is inevitable, and its transformative nature will require a constellation of factors, including bold risk-takers and innovators, to create a better future for the industry.

    • Walmart's Edge with Self-Driving Trucks in Supply Chain LogisticsSelf-driving trucks optimize transportation routes, eliminate warehousing costs, enable leaner inventory management, and replace rail as the fastest and most cost-effective mode of transportation for long-distance cargo. This could revolutionize the supply chain industry.

      Walmart's strategic design of store layouts and supply chain logistics gives them an edge over competitors. They optimize the routes of their human-driven trucks to efficiently transport goods from distribution centers to stores, without the need for overnight stays. Now with the capability of self-driving trucks to travel two to three times farther, the supply chain industry is poised for revolutionary change. This will eliminate the need for costly warehousing and enable leaner inventory management. Additionally, e-commerce businesses will be able to move small quantities of a wide range of products to virtually anywhere, as fast as possible. Self-driving trucks could eventually replace rail as the most cost-effective and fastest mode of transportation for long-distance cargo.

    • Exploring the Potential of Self-Driving TrucksTrucking companies are focusing on self-driving trucks for highway driving by grouping them into "hives." However, the impact of this automation on society and businesses is not yet fully considered.

      Trucking companies are exploring the potential of self-driving trucks, but the focus is currently on highway driving due to its relative simplicity compared to city driving. One concept being discussed is the idea of "hives" of trucks, where groups of 20 or more trucks move together in a coordinated fashion. Self-driving cars may also travel in "packets" behind the trucks. However, there is currently more emphasis on solving the technological problems rather than thinking about how this automation will impact society from a policy, human, and business perspective. Simplifying the driving problem and focusing on highway driving is the current plan.

    • Solutions for Increasing Fuel Efficiency in TrucksBy segmenting truck duties and utilizing off-the-shelf technology such as platooning and teleoperation, trucks can double fuel economy, reduce pollution, and improve public health. However, each solution comes with its own set of challenges that must be addressed.

      Off-the-shelf technology exists today that can double the fuel economy of a typical truck on a highway. Segmentation of duty cycles can lead to lighter, clean-burning trucks that do not damage pavements and do not cause asthma in children. Steve Viscelli suggests segmenting trucks wherein a local driver can be paid by the hour to drive trailers out to outside cities and stage them, while the long-haul driver can drive platoons, which provide an aerodynamic advantage and save fuel. However, platooning comes with its own set of problems, such as an uncomfortably short following distance. Another solution suggested by Starsky is teleoperation, which involves remotely piloting the truck, while another person stays in the truck to monitor it.

    • The Role of Teleoperation in Overcoming Challenges of Autonomous DrivingTeleoperation can help mitigate costs and increase reliability of autonomous driving. Lack of transparency from tech companies and difficulty of driving itself are major roadblocks in the progress of autonomous driving.

      The conversation discusses the difficulties of autonomous driving and the role of teleoperation in solving those challenges. The lack of transparency from Silicon Valley tech companies and their focus on marketing hype rather than educating the public about the difficulties of the problem is a big hindrance. The conversation also touches on the difficulty of driving itself and its impact on labor market changes since we tend to consider jobs that are easy for humans to be easy for computers as well, which is not the case. Teleoperation is an interesting solution to mitigate some of the costs and increase reliability.

    • Tele-Operation for Safe and Efficient Self-Driving TrucksTele-operation enables remote control of self-driving trucks with faults, reducing costly downtime. This technology can revolutionize day-to-day operations and create a future where humans and robots work together in a complementary way.

      Ensuring the safe operation and maintenance of self-driving trucks in real-world, rough environments poses significant challenges. Tele-operation may play a vital role in rescuing stranded trucks and minimizing expensive downtime. It would enable remote control of a vehicle with faulty sensors or other critical faults until a technician can take a close look at the issue. Tesla's data engine demonstrates that companies can tackle big challenges such as tele-operation to revolutionize their operations. Tele-operation can lead to a future where millions of robots are monitored by thousands of humans, enabling both humans and robots to complement each other's strengths.

    • Policy Questions and Challenges of Implementing Autonomous Trucks in the IndustryImplementing autonomous trucks raises important policy questions such as impact on drivers and employment opportunities, and safety responsibilities. Policymakers, companies, and truck drivers need to work together to address these challenges.

      The use of autonomous trucks for teleoperation and facility-to-facility transportation is becoming more prevalent in the industry. However, additional policy questions need to be addressed, including the impact on drivers and their communities, and how to ensure that there are opportunities for employment in areas affected by these new technologies. The policy questions also extend to the safety responsibilities of truck drivers while on duty and how to ensure that they are completely relieved of responsibility while in autonomous mode. The implementation of autonomous trucking will continue to evolve and present new challenges for policymakers, companies, and truck drivers.

    • The Downside of Technological Advancements in Job DeskillingWhile technology can make work easier, it can also lead to job loss and downward pressure on wages. Technologists must prove how their advancements benefit workers, rather than simply citing theoretical benefits.

      Advancements in technology are leading to the deskilling of jobs such as truck driving, which is resulting in downward pressure on wages and making the work worse for drivers. While some technologists suggest that their developments will make the job better for workers, history suggests otherwise. Technology can make the lives of workers easier, but it also allows companies to hire less skilled workers and fire those who are already there. The burden is on technologists to clearly demonstrate how their technology will help workers, rather than simply citing theoretical benefits. Automation steps such as dispatching and payment are already being automated, leading to potential job losses in those areas.

    • The Social Implications of Autonomous Trucks in the Transportation IndustryWhile autonomous trucks can improve safety and efficiency, they may also displace workers and reduce wages, raising concerns about the impact of technology on the workforce. It's important to consider these implications and work towards a more equitable future.

      Autonomous trucks have the potential to revolutionize the transportation industry, but they also raise some important questions about the future of work. While technology can improve safety and efficiency, it can also displace workers and reduce wages. The role of conscientious drivers, who can avoid accidents and ensure safe delivery, may become less valuable as collision avoidance systems become more advanced. This shift raises concerns about how technology can impact the workforce, particularly in industries where labor costs are high. As we continue to develop autonomous trucks, it's important to consider the social implications and work towards creating a more equitable future.

    • The Complex Relationship between Technology and Job CreationWhile new technology can create high-skilled jobs, it doesn't automatically solve unemployment. Factors like geography, politics, and the emotional impact on individuals need to be considered for effective solutions.

      In a conversation about the impact of technological advancement on the job market, Steve Viscelli defends the idea that creating high-skilled jobs with new technology is not a straightforward solution to unemployment. Geography and politics play important roles in the distribution of job opportunities and societal impact. Furthermore, economics often fails to account for the emotional and psychological impact of economic forces on individuals and populations. Viscelli believes that finding analogies to labor processes that are more efficient and economically viable can lead to solutions that benefit workers and the economy as a whole.

    • The Benefits and Challenges of Platooning in the Trucking IndustryPlatooning, where a human-driven truck leads a self-driving truck, can increase productivity, but the following truck needs independent self-driving capabilities. While it's a promising solution, technical challenges need to be addressed.

      Platooning, or having a human-driven truck lead a self-driving truck, can lead to a massive increase in productivity by hauling two to three times as much freight. This scenario can solve issues such as bridge weight limits and doubles the productivity of the driver. However, engineers warn that the following truck would require independent self-driving capabilities in case of disconnection from the lead truck. Platooning is not as difficult as solving the full self-driving problem, making it an interesting solution for the trucking industry's autonomous driving needs. Overall, platooning can be a beneficial solution for the trucking industry, but technical challenges remain.

    • The limited approach towards autonomous trucks: missed opportunities and private influenceThe Department of Transportation's limited approach towards autonomous trucks excludes potential scenarios and fails to address key concerns. Companies must innovate towards societal goals instead of letting profit-driven actors shape policy.

      The Department of Transportation's scenarios for autonomous trucks do not encompass all potential uses for the technology, and exclude some proposed scenarios due to lack of current development. This limited approach is a missed opportunity to address key concerns such as reducing highway deaths and fighting climate change. Private actors currently have significant influence in shaping policy and investors in autonomous vehicle companies prioritize profitability. However, companies like Locomotion are taking matters into their own hands by innovating new solutions like human drivers working in tandem with autonomous trucks. It is crucial for society to not restrict technology or let profit-driven actors determine the direction, but to harness it towards goals that truly matter.

    • The Importance of Prioritizing Real Products in Autonomous Vehicle Start-upsWaymo and Tesla's emphasis on real data collection for driverless cars is more valuable than making impressive investor presentations. They are also considering the potential impact of automation on industries like trucking.

      In Silicon Valley, there is a culture where start-ups in the autonomous vehicle industry focus more on creating compelling PowerPoint presentations for venture capitalists than developing actual products that can change people's lives. However, there are companies like Waymo and Tesla, which are focused on putting actual cars on the road and collecting real data on their operations. This approach shows a willingness to take risks and solve the problem of autonomous driving in a meaningful way, rather than just making a flashy presentation. One important consideration for these companies is navigating the potential effects of automation on industries like trucking, which will likely face significant changes in the coming years.

    • Expert Outlines Benefits and Risks of Automation in TruckingWorkers should negotiate for a share of the benefits from automation, and policymakers should have honest conversations with affected communities. Meanwhile, Tesla's unique approach to autonomous trucks could revolutionize the industry, but its effectiveness remains uncertain.

      Steve Viscelli, an expert in labor and automation, suggests that the increasing use of technology in trucking may lead to job losses. However, he argues that workers can still benefit if they negotiate for a share of the benefits that come from automation. Viscelli emphasizes the importance of having honest conversations between policymakers, truck drivers, and affected communities about the impacts of automation. He also discusses Tesla's approach to semi-autonomous trucks, which uses computer vision alone without LIDAR or radar. While this approach is unique and bold, it remains to be seen whether it can effectively operate in the trucking industry.

    • Tesla's First Principles Thinking Approach to Solving City Driving and Last Mile ProblemsTesla's unique approach targets inefficiencies in the system, redesigns it from the ground up, and seeks to make the process cheaper. This sets them apart from competitors who focus on making cars at scale cheaper.

      Tesla is trying to solve the problem of city driving and the last mile aspect for regular passenger vehicles. While autonomous driving trucks can solve last mile delivery, the long haul problem still remains unsolved. Tesla's approach, which is first principles thinking, looks at the inefficiencies of the entire system and considers redesigning it entirely from the ground up. This way, they can remove the inefficiencies in the system and make it 10x or even 100x cheaper. Other companies in the automotive sector still struggle with this since they focus more on making cars at scale cheaper, and they find it difficult to embrace modern solutions.

    • The Role of Public Policy and Markets in Technological ProgressBoth heroes and government intervention are necessary for innovation. Public policy is needed to protect patient rights and prevent corporate interests from dominating infrastructure and transportation decision-making. Markets are not always enough for big societal problems like climate change.

      In this conversation about the role of public policy and markets in shaping technological progress, the speakers agree that we need heroes who take risks and drive innovation forward, but they also stress the importance of government intervention in areas like healthcare and transportation infrastructure, where private companies may not act in the public interest. They point out that public policy is needed to ensure patient rights and prevent corporate interests from dominating decision-making around infrastructure and transportation. While markets can remove inefficiencies after the fact, they are not always equipped to tackle big societal problems like climate change, which require coordinated public action.

    • Misconceptions about Government Spending and the Importance of Investment in Society.Middle-class Americans benefit the most from government subsidies, but honest conversations about investing in private interests while still benefitting society as a whole are necessary. Government collaboration and funding can play a crucial role in solving large-scale problems.

      The current political and social climate has led to a misconception about government spending, causing people to believe that those undeserving are benefiting from welfare programs. However, research has shown that middle-class Americans benefit the most from government subsidies, such as mortgage interest deductions. To solve large-scale problems, such as infrastructure and COVID-19 testing, there needs to be honest conversations about investing in private interests while still benefitting society as a whole. This is where government collaboration and funding can play a crucial role, as demonstrated by historic infrastructure projects like the Erie Canal and the interstate highway system. While the impact of automation in the trucking industry is uncertain, it is important to remain optimistic about its potential benefits for society as a whole.

    • Challenges and Solutions to Harnessing Technology for Labor and ClimateRebuilding trust in institutions and policy approaches is crucial for managing the challenges of technological advancements in labor and climate. Prioritizing meaningful and dignified employment is necessary to prevent mass human suffering caused by automation and AI.

      The challenges of harnessing technological advancements for labor and climate are many, including issues of congestion and infrastructure. Rebuilding trust in institutions and policy approaches is crucial, as we have seen a decline over the years. Aspects like free trade and immigration have been debated, with the benefits being touted by some but the costs felt disproportionately by others. Building trust in higher education and other institutions can aid in this process of change. It is important to ensure that the impending automation and advancement in AI don't cause mass human suffering but instead provide meaningful and dignified employment.

    • The Impact of Technology and Capitalism on Workers' PowerIt's important to consider individual experiences and minimize pain to give a voice to the powerless. Follow your interests and curiosity, even if it doesn't fit a particular career path.

      The effects of technology and capitalism both have an impact on workers' power in the system. In the past, unions tied wages to productivity to keep demand up in the economy, but now workers may not have the same sense of power. It's important to listen to every person's life experience and concerns, as they all have something to teach us. Steve Jobs once said that you can't connect the dots looking forward; looking back, you can see how all the pieces led you to where you ended up. It's okay to follow your interests and curiosity, even if it doesn't fit a particular career path. Listen to the pain of others and try to minimize it to give a voice to the powerless.

    • Taking Big Leaps and Exploring the World: An Ethnographer's StoryDon't be afraid to take risks and explore the world. A diverse background and fascination with people can open doors to new opportunities and experiences.

      Steve Viscelli, an ethnographer, shares his experience of taking huge leaps that many people would be scared to take. He was driven by the need to go out into the world and explore, which led him on some dangerous adventures like solo kayaking in the Pacific. His advantage as an ethnographer came from growing up in a blue-collar environment that helped him to move through different spaces and become comfortable in them. With his fascination with people and their backgrounds, who knows where his life in the next 10 years may take him.

    • Choosing a Career based on Interests and PassionsPursue a career path that brings personal fulfillment and meaning. Finding love and craftsmanship in your work may not only result in achieving real happiness but also make a positive impact in the world.

      The key takeaway from this section is to follow your interests and passions, even if they may not have an immediate economic return. It is important to downplay the societal pressure of choosing a job solely for financial gain and instead pursue careers that bring personal fulfillment and meaning. The expression of love and craftsmanship, regardless of the job, can be deeply fulfilling and a celebration of humanity. Ultimately, finding love in your work is a key component to achieving real happiness and making a positive impact in the world.

    • Speaker Acknowledges Steve Viscelli for Work on Blue-Collar AmericaEven when it seems like our efforts may not make a difference, they can still be valuable and appreciated. Doing small things in a great way can have a significant impact on others.

      The key takeaway from this section is that the speaker is acknowledging and thanking Steve Viscelli for his impactful work exploring human nature in blue-collar America. Despite the difficulty in connecting the dots, his work is appreciated and seen as valuable. The conversation ultimately ends with a quote from Napoleon Hill, emphasizing the importance of doing small things in a great way.

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    Arvind Srinivas is CEO of Perplexity, a company that aims to revolutionize how we humans find answers to questions on the Internet. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Cloaked: https://cloaked.com/lex and use code LexPod to get 25% off - ShipStation: https://shipstation.com/lex and use code LEX to get 60-day free trial - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/aravind-srinivas-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Aravind's X: https://x.com/AravSrinivas Perplexity: https://perplexity.ai/ Perplexity's X: https://x.com/perplexity_ai PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:52) - How Perplexity works (18:48) - How Google works (41:16) - Larry Page and Sergey Brin (55:50) - Jeff Bezos (59:18) - Elon Musk (1:01:36) - Jensen Huang (1:04:53) - Mark Zuckerberg (1:06:21) - Yann LeCun (1:13:07) - Breakthroughs in AI (1:29:05) - Curiosity (1:35:22) - $1 trillion dollar question (1:50:13) - Perplexity origin story (2:05:25) - RAG (2:27:43) - 1 million H100 GPUs (2:30:15) - Advice for startups (2:42:52) - Future of search (3:00:29) - Future of AI
    Lex Fridman Podcast
    enJune 19, 2024

    #433 – Sara Walker: Physics of Life, Time, Complexity, and Aliens

    #433 – Sara Walker: Physics of Life, Time, Complexity, and Aliens
    Sara Walker is an astrobiologist and theoretical physicist. She is the author of a new book titled "Life as No One Knows It: The Physics of Life's Emergence". Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - Motific: https://motific.ai - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/sara-walker-3-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Sara's Book - Life as No One Knows It: https://amzn.to/3wVmOe1 Sara's X: https://x.com/Sara_Imari Sara's Instagram: https://instagram.com/alien_matter PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:40) - Definition of life (31:18) - Time and space (42:00) - Technosphere (46:25) - Theory of everything (55:06) - Origin of life (1:16:44) - Assembly theory (1:32:58) - Aliens (1:44:48) - Great Perceptual Filter (1:48:45) - Fashion (1:52:47) - Beauty (1:59:08) - Language (2:05:50) - Computation (2:15:37) - Consciousness (2:24:28) - Artificial life (2:48:21) - Free will (2:55:05) - Why anything exists
    Lex Fridman Podcast
    enJune 13, 2024

    #432 – Kevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life

    #432 – Kevin Spacey: Power, Controversy, Betrayal, Truth & Love in Film and Life
    Kevin Spacey is a two-time Oscar-winning actor, who starred in Se7en, the Usual Suspects, American Beauty, and House of Cards, creating haunting performances of characters who often embody the dark side of human nature. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - ExpressVPN: https://expressvpn.com/lexpod to get 3 months free - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get $350 off - BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - AG1: https://drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil EPISODE LINKS: Kevin's X: https://x.com/KevinSpacey Kevin's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevinspacey Kevin's YouTube: https://youtube.com/kevinspacey Kevin's Website: https://kevinspacey.com/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:14) - Seven (13:54) - David Fincher (21:46) - Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman (27:15) - Acting (35:40) - Improve (44:24) - Al Pacino (48:07) - Jack Lemmon (57:25) - American Beauty (1:17:34) - Mortality (1:20:22) - Allegations (1:38:19) - House of Cards (1:56:55) - Jack Nicholson (1:59:57) - Mike Nichols (2:05:30) - Christopher Walken (2:12:38) - Father (2:21:30) - Future
    Lex Fridman Podcast
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    #431 – Roman Yampolskiy: Dangers of Superintelligent AI

    #431 – Roman Yampolskiy: Dangers of Superintelligent AI
    Roman Yampolskiy is an AI safety researcher and author of a new book titled AI: Unexplainable, Unpredictable, Uncontrollable. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Yahoo Finance: https://yahoofinance.com - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get $350 off EPISODE LINKS: Roman's X: https://twitter.com/romanyam Roman's Website: http://cecs.louisville.edu/ry Roman's AI book: https://amzn.to/4aFZuPb PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (09:12) - Existential risk of AGI (15:25) - Ikigai risk (23:37) - Suffering risk (27:12) - Timeline to AGI (31:44) - AGI turing test (37:06) - Yann LeCun and open source AI (49:58) - AI control (52:26) - Social engineering (54:59) - Fearmongering (1:04:49) - AI deception (1:11:23) - Verification (1:18:22) - Self-improving AI (1:30:34) - Pausing AI development (1:36:51) - AI Safety (1:46:35) - Current AI (1:51:58) - Simulation (1:59:16) - Aliens (2:00:50) - Human mind (2:07:10) - Neuralink (2:16:15) - Hope for the future (2:20:11) - Meaning of life
    Lex Fridman Podcast
    enJune 02, 2024

    #430 – Charan Ranganath: Human Memory, Imagination, Deja Vu, and False Memories

    #430 – Charan Ranganath: Human Memory, Imagination, Deja Vu, and False Memories
    Charan Ranganath is a psychologist and neuroscientist at UC Davis, specializing in human memory. He is the author of a new book titled Why We Remember. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Riverside: https://creators.riverside.fm/LEX and use code LEX to get 30% off - ZipRecruiter: https://ziprecruiter.com/lex - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/charan-ranganath-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Charan's X: https://x.com/CharanRanganath Charan's Instagram: https://instagram.com/thememorydoc Charan's Website: https://charanranganath.com Why We Remember (book): https://amzn.to/3WzUF6x Charan's Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=ptWkt1wAAAAJ Dynamic Memory Lab: https://dml.ucdavis.edu/ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:18) - Experiencing self vs remembering self (23:59) - Creating memories (33:31) - Why we forget (41:08) - Training memory (51:37) - Memory hacks (1:03:26) - Imagination vs memory (1:12:44) - Memory competitions (1:22:33) - Science of memory (1:37:48) - Discoveries (1:48:52) - Deja vu (1:54:09) - False memories (2:14:14) - False confessions (2:18:00) - Heartbreak (2:25:34) - Nature of time (2:33:15) - Brain–computer interface (BCI) (2:47:19) - AI and memory (2:57:33) - ADHD (3:04:30) - Music (3:14:15) - Human mind
    Lex Fridman Podcast
    enMay 25, 2024

    #429 – Paul Rosolie: Jungle, Apex Predators, Aliens, Uncontacted Tribes, and God

    #429 – Paul Rosolie: Jungle, Apex Predators, Aliens, Uncontacted Tribes, and God
    Paul Rosolie is a naturalist, explorer, author, and founder of Junglekeepers, dedicating his life to protecting the Amazon rainforest. Support his efforts at https://junglekeepers.org Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - ShipStation: https://shipstation.com/lex and use code LEX to get 60-day free trial - Yahoo Finance: https://yahoofinance.com - BetterHelp: https://betterhelp.com/lex to get 10% off - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get $350 off - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/paul-rosolie-2-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Paul's Instagram: https://instagram.com/paulrosolie Junglekeepers: https://junglekeepers.org Paul's Website: https://paulrosolie.com Mother of God (book): https://amzn.to/3ww2ob1 PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (12:29) - Amazon jungle (14:47) - Bushmaster snakes (26:13) - Black caiman (44:33) - Rhinos (47:47) - Anacondas (1:18:04) - Mammals (1:30:10) - Piranhas (1:41:00) - Aliens (1:58:45) - Elephants (2:10:02) - Origin of life (2:23:21) - Explorers (2:36:38) - Ayahuasca (2:45:03) - Deep jungle expedition (2:59:09) - Jane Goodall (3:01:41) - Theodore Roosevelt (3:12:36) - Alone show (3:22:23) - Protecting the rainforest (3:38:36) - Snake makes appearance (3:46:47) - Uncontacted tribes (4:00:11) - Mortality (4:01:39) - Steve Irwin (4:09:18) - God
    Lex Fridman Podcast
    enMay 15, 2024

    #428 – Sean Carroll: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Black Holes & Aliens

    #428 – Sean Carroll: General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Black Holes & Aliens
    Sean Carroll is a theoretical physicist, author, and host of Mindscape podcast. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - HiddenLayer: https://hiddenlayer.com/lex - Cloaked: https://cloaked.com/lex and use code LexPod to get 25% off - Notion: https://notion.com/lex - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/sean-carroll-3-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Sean's Website: https://preposterousuniverse.com Mindscape Podcast: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/ Sean's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@seancarroll Sean's Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/seanmcarroll Sean's Twitter: https://twitter.com/seanmcarroll Sean's Instagram: https://instagram.com/seanmcarroll Sean's Papers: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Lfifrv8AAAAJ Sean's Books: https://amzn.to/3W7yT9N PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (11:03) - General relativity (23:22) - Black holes (28:11) - Hawking radiation (32:19) - Aliens (41:15) - Holographic principle (1:05:38) - Dark energy (1:11:38) - Dark matter (1:20:34) - Quantum mechanics (1:41:56) - Simulation (1:44:18) - AGI (1:58:42) - Complexity (2:11:25) - Consciousness (2:20:32) - Naturalism (2:24:49) - Limits of science (2:29:34) - Mindscape podcast (2:39:29) - Einstein

    #427 – Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset

    #427 – Neil Adams: Judo, Olympics, Winning, Losing, and the Champion Mindset
    Neil Adams is a judo world champion, 2-time Olympic silver medalist, 5-time European champion, and often referred to as the Voice of Judo. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - ZipRecruiter: https://ziprecruiter.com/lex - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings - MasterClass: https://masterclass.com/lexpod to get 15% off - LMNT: https://drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack - NetSuite: http://netsuite.com/lex to get free product tour Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/neil-adams-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Neil's Instagram: https://instagram.com/naefighting Neil's YouTube: https://youtube.com/NAEffectiveFighting Neil's TikTok: https://tiktok.com/@neiladamsmbe Neil's Facebook: https://facebook.com/NeilAdamsJudo Neil's X: https://x.com/NeilAdamsJudo Neil's Website: https://naeffectivefighting.com Neil's Podcast: https://naeffectivefighting.com/podcasts/the-dojo-collective-podcast A Life in Judo (book): https://amzn.to/4d3DtfB A Game of Throws (audiobook): https://amzn.to/4aA2WeJ PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (09:13) - 1980 Olympics (26:35) - Judo explained (34:40) - Winning (52:54) - 1984 Olympics (1:01:55) - Lessons from losing (1:17:37) - Teddy Riner (1:37:12) - Training in Japan (1:52:51) - Jiu jitsu (2:03:59) - Training (2:27:18) - Advice for beginners

    #426 – Edward Gibson: Human Language, Psycholinguistics, Syntax, Grammar & LLMs

    #426 – Edward Gibson: Human Language, Psycholinguistics, Syntax, Grammar & LLMs
    Edward Gibson is a psycholinguistics professor at MIT and heads the MIT Language Lab. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors: - Yahoo Finance: https://yahoofinance.com - Listening: https://listening.com/lex and use code LEX to get one month free - Policygenius: https://policygenius.com/lex - Shopify: https://shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial - Eight Sleep: https://eightsleep.com/lex to get special savings Transcript: https://lexfridman.com/edward-gibson-transcript EPISODE LINKS: Edward's X: https://x.com/LanguageMIT TedLab: https://tedlab.mit.edu/ Edward's Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=4FsWE64AAAAJ TedLab's YouTube: https://youtube.com/@Tedlab-MIT PODCAST INFO: Podcast website: https://lexfridman.com/podcast Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2lwqZIr Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2nEwCF8 RSS: https://lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/ YouTube Full Episodes: https://youtube.com/lexfridman YouTube Clips: https://youtube.com/lexclips SUPPORT & CONNECT: - Check out the sponsors above, it's the best way to support this podcast - Support on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman - Twitter: https://twitter.com/lexfridman - Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lexfridman - LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman - Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman - Medium: https://medium.com/@lexfridman OUTLINE: Here's the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. (00:00) - Introduction (10:53) - Human language (14:59) - Generalizations in language (20:46) - Dependency grammar (30:45) - Morphology (39:20) - Evolution of languages (42:40) - Noam Chomsky (1:26:46) - Thinking and language (1:40:16) - LLMs (1:53:14) - Center embedding (2:19:42) - Learning a new language (2:23:34) - Nature vs nurture (2:30:10) - Culture and language (2:44:38) - Universal language (2:49:01) - Language translation (2:52:16) - Animal communication

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