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    281 | Samir Okasha on the Philosophy of Agency and Evolution

    enJuly 01, 2024
    What is the significance of philosophy in biology?
    How did the philosophy of biology develop in the 1970s?
    What role does natural selection play in philosophical inquiry?
    How do philosophers differentiate types of agency?
    Why is empirical evidence important for extraterrestrial life discussions?

    Podcast Summary

    • Philosophy of BiologyPhilosophy of Biology explores fundamental questions in biology, such as the nature of species, purpose, and agency, which have implications for policy, morality, and everyday life. Evolution, particularly natural selection, is a central focus due to its unique significance for philosophical inquiry.

      Philosophy is an essential part of understanding the world around us, including the field of biology. Philosophy of biology is a sub-discipline of philosophy that deals with the foundational questions of biology, such as what is a species, what is a purpose, and what is an agent. These questions are important for policy, morality, and everyday life. The relationship between philosophy and biology became a subject of its own in the 1970s when philosophers began to question how general ideas from philosophy of science applied to the life sciences. Evolution, particularly natural selection, came to be seen as uniquely significant for philosophical questions, making it a central focus of philosophy of biology. Darwin himself recognized the importance of understanding biology for philosophical inquiry, famously noting that "he who understands baboon would do more for metaphysics than Locke."

    • Units of selection in evolutionThe debate over whether natural selection operates at the individual or group level has significant implications for understanding altruistic behaviors and the complexity of evolutionary theory

      The theory of evolution by natural selection has significant implications for philosophy, particularly in understanding the units of selection and the level at which natural selection operates. The debate surrounding this issue has been ongoing for decades, with philosophers and scientists questioning whether natural selection operates at the individual or group level. While some argue that natural selection favors individual variants, others suggest that it can also favor whole groups. This debate is not always clear-cut, as it can reflect both empirical disagreements and disagreements over how to describe the same theory. The significance of this debate lies in its potential to explain the evolution of altruistic behaviors, which may be beneficial for the collective but individually costly. Overall, the debate highlights the complex and nuanced nature of evolutionary theory and its philosophical implications.

    • Altruism and cooperation evolutionDarwin acknowledged the tension between individual self-interest and group benefit in altruistic behaviors, but suggested that cooperative behaviors could evolve at the group level through natural selection, leading to emergent properties that cannot be explained solely by individual behaviors.

      The evolution of altruism and cooperation within groups is a complex issue that raises questions about the stability of such behaviors in the face of individual self-interest. Darwin himself acknowledged this tension in his book, "The Descent of Man," where he noted that while altruistic behaviors might benefit the group, they could be difficult for individuals to evolve through natural selection. However, Darwin also suggested that a group with many altruistic members might be more successful in competition with other groups, which could lead to the evolution of cooperative behaviors at the group level. This idea has been explored further by evolutionists through mathematical modeling and the concept of multi-level selection, which suggests that natural selection can act at different levels of organization, leading to emergent properties that cannot be explained solely by the behaviors of individual organisms. Ultimately, the question of how emergent properties at the group level can evolve through natural selection is an ongoing area of research and debate in the scientific community.

    • Emergent properties in complex systemsEmergent properties arise from the interaction of simpler components within complex systems and are crucial in fields like physics, biology, and ecology. The debate over whether these properties are truly new or derived from underlying components continues, and understanding the nuances of emergence is essential for researchers.

      Emergent properties, which are characteristics that arise from the interaction of simpler components within a complex system, are a common phenomenon in various fields including physics, biology, and ecology. Honeybee colonies, for instance, exhibit emergent properties such as division of labor and functional integration, making them higher units of selection. The debate revolves around whether these higher-level properties are truly new or derived from the underlying components. Emergence is a crucial concept in biology, particularly in ecology where ecosystems exhibit emergent properties like stability and nutrient recycling. It's essential for researchers from different fields to understand the nuances of emergence and avoid confusion in their discussions. Another fundamental issue in evolutionary biology is the role of chance versus adaptation in driving change. While chance plays a significant role in small populations, the dominant view in biology is that complex phenotypes, like organ development, result from the interaction of many genes and developmental processes.

    • Chance vs. Determinism in EvolutionThough chance plays a role in genomic evolution, complex traits suggest a more deterministic process like natural selection. The debate between chance and adaptation is nuanced when considering genomic vs. phenotypic evolution, with the assembly theory proposing path-dependent structures but facing philosophical concerns about teleology.

      While chance plays a significant role in genomic evolution, it has a lesser impact on the evolution of organisms and their phenotypes. Complex traits that appear adaptive suggest a more deterministic, non-random process like natural selection. The debate between chance and adaptation is more nuanced when considering genomic versus phenotypic evolution. Regarding the assembly theory, it proposes that complex structures in evolution are path-dependent, but the suggestion of changing the laws of physics to account for it is a significant leap. The Darwinian perspective emphasizes the importance of environmental pressures shaping evolution, while the assembly theory leans towards physical constraints. The debate between these perspectives reflects an ongoing tension in evolutionary thinking about the role of chance versus determinism. The assembly theory's attempt to make the laws of nature more teleological is a contentious issue, as it brings up philosophical concerns about goal-directedness in nature. Darwin's contribution to this debate was to show that apparent teleology in nature could be explained by natural selection, which is a causal process, not a goal-directed one.

    • Goal-directed behaviors and evolutionGoal-directed behaviors, exhibited by organisms including humans, do not contradict evolution, but are distinct from real goal-directedness. Both concepts have historical contexts.

      Organisms, including humans, exhibit goal-directed behaviors, which is a fact that is not contradictory to the theory of evolution. Teleonomy, or apparent goal-directedness, is distinct from teleology, or real goal-directedness, and both concepts have been used differently throughout history. While humans and some animals may have mental representations of their goals, most organisms engage in goal-directed behavior in a weaker sense, such as a bacterium moving up an oxygen gradient. The evolution of conscious goal-directedness from simpler goal-directed behaviors is a complex question that requires both scientific and philosophical inquiry. The challenge is to provide a plausible evolutionary explanation for this transition.

    • Notions of AgencyPhilosophers distinguish various notions of agency, from minimal (something that does things) to intentional (an entity with a complex psychology and conscious goals). Rat's lever pressing is intentional action, while scientist's manipulation is not. Debate exists on mental representations in simple organisms.

      The concept of agency, or an entity's ability to act upon its environment, is a complex and multifaceted concept. Philosophers have identified various notions of agency, ranging from minimal (something that does things) to intentional (an entity with a complex psychology and conscious goals). The distinction between these notions can be seen in how we describe an entity's actions. For example, a rat pressing a lever for food is an intentional action, while a scientist manipulating the rat's paw is not. The nature of mental representations in different types of agents is also a subject of debate, with some suggesting that even simple organisms like bacteria may have rudimentary internal states that represent aspects of their environment. Ultimately, understanding the concept of agency requires careful consideration of the specific context and characteristics of the entity in question.

    • Agency and mental representation in AIDennett's intentional stance suggests that attributing mental representation and agency to AI is a heuristic decision rather than a factual one, but the evolution of a nervous system is a significant factor in the development of these capabilities.

      The concept of mental representation and agency in organisms, including AI, is a complex and debated topic in philosophy and psychology. Dan Dennett proposed the idea of the intentional stance, suggesting that the question of whether something has mental representation or agency is more about heuristic utility than a factual distinction. However, the evolution of a nervous system is considered a significant threshold for the development of mental representation and agency. The question of whether AI truly possesses agency is still open-ended, with some arguing that it requires a body and sensory capacities, while others suggest it's just a matter of perception. Ultimately, the definition of agency and mental representation remains a complex and debated topic, with the possibility that our understanding may be influenced by anthropomorphic assumptions.

    • Evolution and free willEvolution's role in shaping our understanding of free will and moral responsibility is a complex issue, with some arguing that our concept of free will may be self-contradictory and that evolution undermines moral realism

      Our understanding of free will and moral responsibility, as well as the nature of life itself, may be influenced by our perspective on evolution and the role of natural selection. The question of free will versus determinism remains a complex philosophical issue, with some arguing that our concept of free will may be self-contradictory. Moral realism, the belief in objective moral truths, is another area of debate, with some suggesting that evolution undermines this belief by showing humans as part of the natural order. Regarding the discovery of life elsewhere, it's likely that we would not recognize it as similar to human life in terms of intrinsic makeup, but we could expect it to engage in some form of metabolism, energy exchange, and reproduction. Ultimately, the study of evolution and its implications for these deep human questions can provide valuable insights, but the answers remain complex and open to ongoing philosophical inquiry.

    • Extraterrestrial lifeThe existence of extraterrestrial life is an empirical question that depends on discovering it, having more data points would help answer the question, and statistical arguments suggest a slim chance of us being alone in the universe, but we currently only have one data point - Earth.

      While the existence of extraterrestrial life is an intriguing question, it is ultimately an empirical one that depends on our ability to discover it. The more data points we have from different ecosystems and biospheres in the universe, the better equipped we will be to answer this question. Although the statistical arguments suggest that the chances of us being alone in the universe are slim, we currently only have one data point - Earth. Therefore, having more information would help us fill in the gaps scientifically. It's a complex question with powerful statistical implications, but ultimately, it's a question that can be answered through empirical evidence. Sumiro Kasha, thank you for joining the Mindscape podcast and sharing your insights on this topic. It's always a pleasure to have thought-provoking conversations like this.

    Recent Episodes from Sean Carroll's Mindscape: Science, Society, Philosophy, Culture, Arts, and Ideas

    AMA | September 2024

    AMA | September 2024

    Welcome to the September 2024 Ask Me Anything episode of Mindscape! These monthly excursions are funded by Patreon supporters (who are also the ones asking the questions). We take questions asked by Patreons, whittle them down to a more manageable number -- based primarily on whether I have anything interesting to say about them, not whether the questions themselves are good -- and sometimes group them together if they are about a similar topic. Enjoy!

    Blog post with AMA questions and transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/09/02/ama-september-2024/

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    287 | Jean-Paul Faguet on Institutions and the Legacy of History

    287 | Jean-Paul Faguet on Institutions and the Legacy of History

    One common feature of complex systems is sensitive dependence on initial conditions: a small change in how systems begin evolving can lead to large differences in their later behavior. In the social sphere, this is a way of saying that history matters. But it can be hard to quantify how much certain specific historical events have affected contemporary conditions, because the number of variables is so large and their impacts are so interdependent. Political economist Jean-Paul Faguet and collaborators have examined one case where we can closely measure the impact today of events from centuries ago: how Colombian communities are still affected by 16th-century encomienda, a colonial forced-labor institution. We talk about this and other examples of the legacy of history.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/08/26/287-jean-paul-faguet-on-institutions-and-the-legacy-of-history/

    Jean-Paul Faguet received a Ph.D. in Political Economy and an M.Sc. in Economics from the London School of Economics, and an Master of Public Policy from the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. He is currently Professor of the Political Economy of Development at LSE. He serves as the Chair of the Decentralization Task Force for the Initiative for Policy Dialogue. Among his awards are the W.J.M. Mackenzie Prize for best political science book.


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    286 | Blaise Agüera y Arcas on the Emergence of Replication and Computation

    286 | Blaise Agüera y Arcas on the Emergence of Replication and Computation

    Understanding how life began on Earth involves questions of chemistry, geology, planetary science, physics, and more. But the question of how random processes lead to organized, self-replicating, information-bearing systems is a more general one. That question can be addressed in an idealized world of computer code, initialized with random sequences and left to run. Starting with many such random systems, and allowing them to mutate and interact, will we end up with "lifelike," self-replicating programs? A new paper by Blaise Agüera y Arcas and collaborators suggests that the answer is yes. This raises interesting questions about whether computation is an attractor in the space of relevant dynamical processes, with implications for the origin and ubiquity of life.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/08/19/286-blaise-aguera-y-arcas-on-the-emergence-of-replication-and-computation/

    Blaise Agüera y Arcas received a B.A. in physics from Princeton University. He is currently a vice-president of engineering at Google, leader of the Cerebra team, and a member of the Paradigms of Intelligence team. He is the author of the books Ubi Sunt and Who Are We Now?, and the upcoming What Is Intelligence?


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    285 | Nate Silver on Prediction, Risk, and Rationality

    285 | Nate Silver on Prediction, Risk, and Rationality

    Being rational necessarily involves engagement with probability. Given two possible courses of action, it can be rational to prefer the one that could possibly result in a worse outcome, if there's also a substantial probability for an even better outcome. But one's attitude toward risk -- averse, tolerant, or even seeking -- also matters. Do we work to avoid the worse possible outcome, even if there is potential for enormous reward? Nate Silver has long thought about probability and prediction, from sports to politics to professional poker. In his his new book On The Edge: The Art of Risking Everything, Silver examines a set of traits characterizing people who welcome risks.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/08/12/285-nate-silver-on-prediction-risk-and-rationality/

    Nate Silver received a B.A. in economics from the University of Chicago. He worked as a baseball analyst, developing the PECOTA statistical system (Player Empirical Comparison and Optimization Test Algorithm). He later founded the FiveThirtyEight political polling analysis site. His first book, The Signal and the Noise, was awarded the Phi Beta Kappa Society Book Award in Science. He is the co-host (with Maria Konnikova) of the Risky Business podcast.


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    AMA | August 2024

    AMA | August 2024

    Welcome to the August 2024 Ask Me Anything episode of Mindscape! These monthly excursions are funded by Patreon supporters (who are also the ones asking the questions). We take questions asked by Patreons, whittle them down to a more manageable number -- based primarily on whether I have anything interesting to say about them, not whether the questions themselves are good -- and sometimes group them together if they are about a similar topic. Enjoy!

    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/08/05/ama-august-2024/

    Support Mindscape on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/seanmcarroll

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    284 | Doris Tsao on How the Brain Turns Vision Into the World

    284 | Doris Tsao on How the Brain Turns Vision Into the World

    The human brain does a pretty amazing job of taking in a huge amount of data from multiple sensory modalities -- vision, hearing, smell, etc. -- and constructing a coherent picture of the world, constantly being updated in real time. (Although perhaps in discrete moments, rather than continuously, as we learn in this podcast...) We're a long way from completely understanding how that works, but amazing progress has been made in identifying specific parts of the brain with specific functions in this process. Today we talk to leading neuroscientist Doris Tsao about the specific workings of vision, from how we recognize faces to how we construct a model of the world around us.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/07/29/284-doris-tsao-on-how-the-brain-turns-vision-into-the-world/

    Doris Tsao received her Ph.D. in neurobiology from Harvard University. She is currently a professor of molecular and cell biology, and a member of the Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute, at the University of California, Berkeley. Among her awards are a MacArthur Fellowship, membership in the National Academy of Sciences, the Eppendorf and Science International Prize in Neurobiology, the National Institutes of Health Director’s Pioneer Award, the Golden Brain Award from the Minerva Foundation, the Perl-UNC Neuroscience Prize, and the Kavli Prize in Neuroscience.

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    283 | Daron Acemoglu on Technology, Inequality, and Power

    283 | Daron Acemoglu on Technology, Inequality, and Power

    Change is scary. But sometimes it can all work out for the best. There's no guarantee of that, however, even when the change in question involves the introduction of a powerful new technology. Today's guest, Daron Acemoglu, is a political economist who has long thought about the relationship between economics and political institutions. In his most recent book (with Simon Johnson), Power and Progress: Our Thousand-Year Struggle Over Technology and Prosperity, he looks at how technological innovations affect the economic lives of ordinary people. We talk about how such effects are often for the worse, at least to start out, until better institutions are able to eventually spread the benefits more broadly.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/07/22/283-daron-acemoglu-on-technology-inequality-and-power/

    Daron Acemoglu received a Ph.D. in economics from the London School of Economics. He is currently Institute Professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. He is a fellow of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the Econometric Society. Among his awards are the John Bates Clark Medal and the Nemmers Prize in Economics. In 2015, he was named the most cited economist of the past 10 years.


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    282 | Joel David Hamkins on Puzzles of Reality and Infinity

    282 | Joel David Hamkins on Puzzles of Reality and Infinity

    The philosophy of mathematics would be so much easier if it weren't for infinity. The concept seems natural, but taking it seriously opens the door to counterintuitive results. As mathematician and philosopher Joel David Hamkins says in this conversation, when we say that the natural numbers are "0, 1, 2, 3, and so on," that "and so on" is hopelessly vague. We talk about different ways to think about the puzzles of infinity, how they might be resolved, and implications for mathematical realism.

    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/07/15/282-joel-david-hamkins-on-puzzles-of-reality-and-infinity/

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    Joel David Hamkins received his Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of California, Berkeley. He is currently the John Cardinal O'Hara Professor of Logic at the University of Notre Dame. He is a pioneer of the idea of the set theory multiverse. He is the top-rated user by reputation score on MathOverflow. He is currently working on The Book of Infinity, to be published by MIT Press.


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    Ask Me Anything | July 2024

    Ask Me Anything | July 2024

    Welcome to the July 2024 Ask Me Anything episode of Mindscape! These monthly excursions are funded by Patreon supporters (who are also the ones asking the questions). We take questions asked by Patreons, whittle them down to a more manageable number -- based primarily on whether I have anything interesting to say about them, not whether the questions themselves are good -- and sometimes group them together if they are about a similar topic. Enjoy!

    Blog post with questions and transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/07/08/ama-july-2024/

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    281 | Samir Okasha on the Philosophy of Agency and Evolution

    281 | Samir Okasha on the Philosophy of Agency and Evolution

    Just like with physics, in biology it is perfectly possible to do most respectable work without thinking much about philosophy, but there are unmistakably foundational questions where philosophy becomes crucial. When do we say that a collection of matter (or bits) is alive? When does it become an agent, capable of making decisions? What are the origins of morality and altruistic behavior? We talk with one of the world's leading experts, Samir Okasha, about the biggest issues in modern philosophy of biology.

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    Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2024/07/01/281-samir-okasha-on-the-philosophy-of-agency-and-evolution/

    Samir Okasha received his D.Phil. in Philosophy from the University of Oxford. He is currently Professor of the Philosophy of Science at the University of Bristol. He is a winner of the Lakatos Award for his book Evolution and the Levels of Selection, and is a Fellow of the British Academy.


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