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    #358 I had dinner with John Mackey, Founder of Whole Foods

    en-usJuly 28, 2024
    What lesson did Mackie learn about cost control?
    How did Walmart influence Mackie's business strategy?
    What challenges did Mackey face when starting Whole Foods?
    How did Mackey's family react to his entrepreneurial ambitions?
    What role did passion play in Mackey's success?

    Podcast Summary

    • Cost ControlFocusing on cost control can help entrepreneurs build successful businesses and make a lasting impact, as emphasized by John Mackie of Whole Foods and historical figures like Andrew Carnegie.

      Controlling costs is a crucial aspect of entrepreneurship, as emphasized by historical figures like Andrew Carnegie and John Mackie. Mackie, the founder of Whole Foods, shared with the podcast host that if he had prioritized cost control earlier in Whole Foods' history, it might have remained an independent company. Ramp, a sponsor of the podcast, exists to help businesses control their spend and optimize finance operations. Mackie also mentioned the impact of Walmart's cost control on its competitive edge. Entrepreneurs, like Mackie, who focus on cost control can build successful businesses and make a lasting impact.

    • John Mackey's curiosity and determinationMackey's curiosity, rejection of conventional education, and determination led him to create Whole Foods despite societal opposition and personal challenges

      John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, was an unconventional thinker and entrepreneur who defied societal expectations and pursued his passions. His experiences, as detailed in his book, demonstrate how his curiosity, competition, and rejection of conventional education led him to create a successful business. Despite facing opposition from friends, family, and societal norms, Mackey's determination and belief in his ideas, coupled with the support of his girlfriend Renee, ultimately led to the creation of Whole Foods. This story highlights the importance of individual curiosity, the power of believing in one's own ideas, and the significance of having supportive relationships.

    • Passion and PerseveranceUnwavering belief and determination in the face of adversity can lead to successful entrepreneurship despite initial resistance and lack of experience

      Passion and conviction, even in the face of adversity and skepticism, can lead to successful entrepreneurship. John Mackey's inner drive to create a business selling healthier food options was fueled by his unwavering belief in the benefits for his customers. Despite the lack of experience and initial resistance from his family, particularly his mother, he persisted. Mackey's father, who had grown up during challenging times and never pursued his own passions, eventually came on board to help guide his son. Mackey's determination and his father's business acumen led to the creation of Whole Foods. Additionally, Mackey's willingness to take risks and disregard bureaucratic obstacles, such as building the first store at night without proper permits, were crucial to the company's survival. The story of John Mackey illustrates the power of passion, conviction, and perseverance in building a successful business.

    • Mackey's reading habitsMackey's success in the natural food industry was driven by his voracious reading and learning, which helped him identify competitive disadvantages and opportunities for growth in his business, and build relationships with peers and competitors.

      John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, became a successful entrepreneur by being a voracious reader and learner. He gained valuable insights from books and industry trade journals, which helped him identify competitive disadvantages and opportunities for growth in his business. By building relationships with peers and competitors, Mackey turned adversaries into allies, allowing him to expand his business and dominate his industry. This relentless drive to learn and adapt, combined with a strategic approach to business relationships, was a key factor in Mackey's success in defining and leading the natural food industry.

    • Expansion of natural food storeJohn Mackey's passion and risk-taking led to the successful expansion of his natural food store into Whole Foods Market, despite initial challenges and setbacks

      John Mackey's expansion of his natural food store into a larger format was a bold move that paid off, leading to the founding of Whole Foods Market. Mackey's enthusiasm and passion for natural foods, coupled with his willingness to take risks and learn from store visits, gave him the confidence to expand and challenge the business environment. Despite facing skepticism and financial constraints, Mackey's belief in his vision and ability to create a convincing illusion of abundance helped Whole Foods Market become a success from day one. However, even with this success, Mackey faced unexpected challenges, such as a flood that destroyed the store's inventory, testing his resilience and determination.

    • Resilience and CommunityDespite facing immense challenges, John Mackie's determination and community support led to the successful beginning of Whole Foods, emphasizing the importance of resilience and community in overcoming adversity. Mackie's approach to expanding the natural foods market through collaboration highlights the power of collective efforts in achieving a common goal.

      Despite facing immense challenges, including a devastating flood that left his store filled with fecal matter, John Mackie's determination and the support of his community led to the successful beginning of Whole Foods. This experience underscores the importance of resilience and the power of community in overcoming adversity. Additionally, Mackie's approach to expanding the natural foods market through a network of like-minded entrepreneurs highlights the value of collaboration and the power of collective efforts in achieving a common goal. The story also emphasizes the significance of documenting experiences and memories, as well as the importance of commitment and long-term vision in entrepreneurship.

    • John Mackey's growthJohn Mackey's personal growth was fueled by inner work and a strong vision, allowing him to overcome challenges and build Whole Foods into a national brand despite setbacks and criticism.

      John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, built his company with a unique combination of love and discipline, crediting inner work and practices like breathwork for his personal growth. Despite facing numerous challenges and setbacks, including conflicts with co-founders and financial struggles, Mackey persisted with faith in his vision and competitive drive, ultimately growing Whole Foods into a national brand through acquisitions. His mother's disapproval and eventual death served as a reminder of the importance of following one's passions and believing in one's abilities.

    • Investor selectionEntrepreneurs should carefully choose investors who share their long-term vision and commitment to the company to avoid potential conflicts and loss of control.

      Entrepreneurs should be cautious when choosing investors, especially venture capitalists. John Mackey's experience with VCs during Whole Foods' growth in the late 1980s and early 1990s illustrates the potential downsides of short-term investor interests conflicting with a founder's long-term vision. Mackey's father warned him against trusting VCs, and Mackey himself described them as "hitchhikers with credit cards." While their investment was essential for growth, the pressure to meet their expectations and exit the company led to tension and potential loss of control. Mackey learned the hard way that it's crucial for entrepreneurs to partner with investors who share their long-term vision and commitment to the company. In his own experience, Mackey found success in taking funding from a long-term friend and investing heavily in the business himself. Overall, Mackey's story serves as a valuable reminder for entrepreneurs to carefully consider the potential impact of outside investment on their company's future.

    • Mackey's acquisitionsMackey's bold acquisition of Mrs. Gooches against advice led to Whole Foods' industry dominance. Honoring and appreciating parents is important despite mistakes.

      John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, was an ambitious and strategic businessman who used podcasts to discover new books and entrepreneurs, leading him to make bold acquisitions despite financial and personal challenges. One of his most significant acquisitions was Mrs. Gooches, a natural food store he believed was the best on the West Coast. Despite opposition from his father and financial instability, Mackey went against the advice of his advisors and made the acquisition, feeling the opportunity was too good to pass up. This decision, while risky, ultimately contributed to Whole Foods' dominance in the industry. Another key takeaway is Mackey's advice to honor and appreciate parents, despite their mistakes, as they will not always be a part of our lives. Mackey's own experiences with his father's Alzheimer's diagnosis and eventual death led him to reflect on the importance of forgiveness and love towards one's parents.

    • Expense ManagementEffective expense management can help companies avoid acquisitions and remain independent, but staying attuned to market trends and adapting strategies accordingly is also crucial for long-term success.

      Controlling expenses is crucial for a company's success, especially during periods of growth and market competition. John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, shared that if he had prioritized expense management more effectively, the company might have avoided being acquired by Amazon and remained an independent business. Additionally, Mackey highlighted the importance of understanding market trends and adapting business strategies accordingly. For instance, Walmart's expansion into groceries forced Whole Foods to differentiate itself by focusing on higher quality and higher prices. However, this strategy became less effective as other grocery chains followed suit, leading to increased competition and financial vulnerability. Ultimately, the lessons from Mackey's experiences emphasize the importance of maintaining a strong financial foundation, staying attuned to market shifts, and making strategic decisions to ensure long-term success.

    • Emotional challenges of selling a companyCEOs face emotional struggles when selling their companies, especially when threatened by shareholder activists or the potential loss of control. Long-term vision and strategic planning are crucial in navigating these challenges.

      Entrepreneur and former Whole Foods Market CEO John Mackey's experience of being pressured to step down and the eventual sale of the company to Amazon was a complex and emotional process. Mackey was hesitant to leave his "entrepreneurial child" amidst a power struggle, but was ultimately influenced by the threat of shareholder activists and the need to avoid a hostile takeover. Drawing inspiration from Abraham Lincoln's leadership of a team of rivals, Mackey asked Walter Robb, a trusted executive, to resign, leading to tensions with shareholder activist Sokoloff. Fearing the impact of shareholder activists and the potential loss of control, Mackey sought a "white knight" buyer to prevent a hostile takeover, ultimately leading to the sale of Whole Foods to Amazon. Mackey's reflections on the experience highlight the emotional challenges of selling a company and the importance of long-term vision in business leadership.

    • Mackey's departure from AmazonMackey learned to let go of resentment and anger after his departure from Amazon and started a new company, reflecting his belief in the infinite nature of business and following one's higher purpose.

      John Mackey, the co-founder of Whole Foods, experienced a loss of influence and eventual departure from Amazon after the acquisition of Whole Foods by Amazon. Despite the disrespect he felt, Mackey learned to let go of resentment and anger through therapy and found joy in starting a new company, Love Life, reflecting his belief in the infinite nature of business and the importance of following one's higher purpose. Mackey and the podcast host shared a passion for learning from history's greatest entrepreneurs and distilling their lessons for wider benefit, with Mackey's obsession taking the form of building Whole Foods and the host's through the creation of the podcast and the tool Founders Notes.

    • Founders NotesFounders Notes is a valuable resource for entrepreneurs, offering access to distilled wisdom from successful founders through a private podcast feed and condensed insights from multiple books.

      Founders Notes is a powerful tool for entrepreneurs, providing access to the ideas and insights of successful founders throughout history. Founder of Founders Notes, David Perell, uses this tool himself to help think through business challenges and now makes it available to subscribers. With features like a private podcast feed called Sage Advice, subscribers can quickly access distilled wisdom from entrepreneurs' careers, making it a valuable resource for continuous learning and inspiration. By condensing the ideas from multiple books into short, easily digestible episodes, Founders Notes serves as a constant reminder and tool for downloading these valuable insights into your own career. To access this collective knowledge, subscribe to Founders Notes at foundersnotes.com.

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    (17:00) Arnault believed that luxury brands could be larger than anyone at the time imagined.

    (20:00) Arnault said this 35 years ago: “My ten-year objective is that LVMH's leading position in the world be further strengthened in the luxury goods sector. I believe that there will be fewer and fewer brand names capable of retaining a worldwide presence and that those of our group will be among them as we will provide them with the means for growth.”

    (25:00) There are huge advantages for the early birds. When you're an early bird, there's a model that I call surfing—when a surfer gets up and catches the wave and just stays there, he can go a long, long time. But if he gets off the wave, he becomes mired in shallows. But people get long runs when they're right on the edge of the wave, whether it's Microsoft or Intel or all kinds of people, including National Cash Register. Surfing is a very powerful model.”  —  the NEW Poor Charlie's Almanack: The Wit and Wisdom of Charlie Munger. (Founders #329)

    (25:00) One thing I learned from having dinner with Charlie was the importance of getting into a great business and STAYING in it. There’s a tendency in human nature to mess up a good thing because of an inability to sit still.

    (25:00) The incredible career of Les Schwab: Les Schwab Pride In Performance: Keep It Going! by Les Schwab. (Founders #330)

    (30:00) Dior in his autobiography: It is widely, and quite erroneously, believed that when the house of Christian Dior was launched, enormous sums were spent on publicity: on the contrary in our first modest budget not a single penny was allotted to it. I trusted to the quality of my dresses to get Christian Dior talked about. Moreover, the relative secrecy in which I chose to work aroused a positive whispering campaign, which was excellent (free) propaganda. Gossip, malicious rumours even, are worth more than the most expensive publicity campaign in the world.

    (31:00) Munger: “There are actually businesses that you will find a few times in a lifetime, where any manager could raise the return enormously just by raising prices-and yet they haven't done it. So they have huge untapped pricing power that they're not using. That is the ultimate no-brainer. Disney found that it could raise those prices a lot and the attendance stayed right up. So a lot of the great record of Eisner and Wells came from just raising prices at Disneyland and Disneyworld and through video cassette sales of classic animated movies. At Berkshire Hathaway, Warren and I raised the prices of See's candy a little faster than others might have. And, of course, we invested in Coca-Cola-which had some untapped pricing power.”

    Charlie Munger: The Complete Investor by Tren Griffin

    (33:00) The benefits Arnault receives from owning commercial real estate: He makes money from his own stores, from leasing space to rivals—and from the appreciation of premium real estate. When LVMH buys a building, it takes the best storefronts for its own brands and often asks rivals to move out when their leases expire.

    (35:00) Arnault is all about details. He has 200,000 employees and he’s paying attention to details about landscaping in the Miami Design District.

    (36:00) If we lose the detail, we lose everything. — Disney's Land: Walt Disney and the Invention of the Amusement Park That Changed the World by Richard Snow. (Founders #347)

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    #354 Sam Walton: The Inside Story of America's Richest Man

    #354 Sam Walton: The Inside Story of America's Richest Man

    What I learned from reading Sam Walton: The Inside Story of America's Richest Man by Vance Trimble. 

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    (2:30) Sam Walton built his business on a very simple idea: Buy cheap. Sell low. Every day. With a smile.

    (2:30) People confuse a simple idea with an ordinary person. Sam Walton was no ordinary person.

    (4:30) Traits Sam Walton had his entire life: A sense of duty. Extreme discipline. Unbelievable levels of endurance.

    (5:30) His dad taught him the secret to life was work, work, work.

    (5:30) Sam felt the world was something he could conquer.

    (6:30) The Great Depression was a big leveler of people. Sam chose to rise above it. He was determined to be a success.

    (11:30) You can make a lot of different mistakes and still recover if you run an efficient operation. Or you can be brilliant and still go out of business if you’re too inefficient. — Sam Walton: Made In America by Sam Walton. (Founders #234)

    (15:30) He was crazy about satisfying customers.

    (17:30) The lawyer saw Sam clenching and unclenching his fists, staring at his hands. Sam straightened up. “No,” he said. “I’m not whipped. I found Newport, and I found the store. I can find another good town and another store. Just wait and see!”

    (21:30) Sometimes hardship can enlighten and inspire. This was the case for Sam Walton as he put in hours and hours of driving Ozark mountain roads in the winter of 1950. But that same boredom and frustration triggered ideas that eventually brought him billions of dollars. (This is when he learns to fly small planes. Walmart never happens otherwise)

    (33:30) At the start we were so amateurish and so far behind K Mart just ignored us. They let us stay out here, while we developed and learned our business. They gave us a 10 year period to grow.

    (37:30) And so how dedicated was Sam to keeping costs low? Walmart is called that in part because fewer letters means cheaper signs on the outside of a store.

    (42:30) Sam Walton is tough, loves a good fight, and protects his territory.

    (43:30) His tactics later prompted them to describe Sam as a modern-day combination of Vince Lombardi (insisting on solid execution of the basics) and General George S. Patton. (A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week.)

    (43:30) Hardly a day has passed without Sam reminding an employee: "Remember Wal-Mart's Golden Rule: Number one, the customer Is always right; number two, if the customer isn't right, refer to rule number one.”

    (46:30) The early days of Wal-Mart were like the early days of Disneyland: "You asked the question, What was your process like?' I kind of laugh because process is an organized way of doing things. I have to remind you, during the 'Walt Period' of designing Disneyland, we didn't have processes. We just did the work. Processes came later. All of these things had never been done before. Walt had gathered up all these people who had never designed a theme park, a Disneyland.

    So we're in the same boat at one time, and we figure out what to do and how to do it on the fly as we go along with it and not even discuss plans, timing, or anything.

    We just worked and Walt just walked around and had suggestions. — Disney's Land: Walt Disney and the Invention of the Amusement Park That Changed the World by Richard Snow. (Founders #347)

    (1:04:30) Sam Walton said he took more ideas from Sol Price than any other person. —Sol Price: Retail Revolutionary by Robert Price. (Founders #304)

    (1:07:30) Nothing in the world is cheaper than a good idea without any action behind it.

    (1:07:30)  Sam Walton: Made In America  (Founders #234)

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    #353 How To Be Rich by J. Paul Getty

    #353 How To Be Rich by J. Paul Getty

    What I learned from reading How To Be Rich by J. Paul Getty. 

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    (2:00) My father was a self-made man who had known extreme poverty in his youth and had a practically limitless capacity for hard work.

    (6:00) I acted as my own geologist, legal advisor, drilling superintendent, explosives expert, roughneck and roustabout.

    (8:00) Michael Jordan: The Life by Roland Lazenby. (Founders #212) 

    (12:00) Control as much of your business as possible. You don’t want to have to worry about what is going on in the other guy’s shop.

    (20:00) Optimism is a moral duty. Pessimism aborts opportunity.

    (21:00) I studied the lives of great men and women. And I found that the men and women who got to the top were those who did the jobs they had in hand, with everything they had of energy and enthusiasm and hard work.

    (22:00) 98 percent of our attention was devoted to the task at hand. We are believers in Carlyle's Prescription, that the job a man is to do is the job at hand and not see what lies dimly in the distance. — Charlie Munger

    (27:00) Entrepreneurs want to create their own security.

    (34:00) Example is the best means to instruct or inspire others.

    (37:00) Long orders, which require much time to prepare, to read and to understand are the enemies of speed. Napoleon could issue orders of few sentences which clearly expressed his intentions and required little time to issue and to understand.

    (38:00) A Few Lessons for Investors and Managers From Warren Buffett by Warren Buffett and Peter Bevelin. (Founders #202) 

    (41:00) Two principles he repeats:

    Be where the work is happening.

    Get rid of bureaucracy.

    (43:00) Years ago, businessmen automatically kept administrative overhead to an absolute minimum. The present day trend is in exactly the opposite direction. The modern business mania is to build greater and ever greater paper shuffling empires.

    (44:00) Les Schwab Pride In Performance: Keep It Going!by Les Schwab (Founders #330) 

    (46:00) The primary function of management is to obtain results through people.

    (50:00) the truly great leader views reverses, calmly and coolly. He is fully aware that they are bound to occur occasionally and he refuses to be unnerved by them.

    (51:00) There is always something wrong everywhere.

    (51:00) Don't interrupt the compounding. It’s all about the long term. You should keep a fortress of cash, reinvest in your business, and use debt sparingly. Doing so will help you survive to reap the long-term benefits of your business.

    (54:00) You’ll go much farther if you stop trying to look and act and think like everyone else.

    (55:00) The line that divides majority opinion from mass hysteria is often so fine as to be virtually invisible.

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    I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth

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