Podcast Summary
Autocracy network: Modern autocracies form a network based on mutual interests and shared goals, including protecting wealth and undermining liberal democracy. They use various tactics to push back against democracies and maintain power.
Key takeaway from this conversation between Sam Harris and Anne Applebaum is that modern autocracies, including those in Russia, China, Iran, and others, form a network based on mutual interests and shared goals, such as protecting their wealth and undermining liberal democracy. These autocrats are not ideologically aligned but are united in their efforts to discredit and weaken democratic values, both domestically and internationally. They use various tactics, including social media campaigns and funding far-right or far-left movements, to push back against liberal democracy and maintain their power. The unavoidable power of ideas, such as those related to individual rights and transparency, is a significant threat to these autocrats, making the maintenance and strengthening of democracies crucial. The ongoing battle between autocracies and democracies is not confined to specific geographic regions but is a global struggle for power and ideological influence.
Fear of democratic ideas in autocratic regimes: Autocratic leaders recognize the power of democratic ideas and fear their spread, leading them to support one another and suppress democratic uprisings, while Western democracies enable these regimes through investments and expropriation of wealth.
The contagious nature of democratic ideas poses a significant threat to autocratic regimes. This fear has been a constant theme throughout history, from Mussolini's belief that there could be no compromise between democracy and totalitarianism, to Hitler's concern about the influence of Western democracies on Europe. Autocratic leaders recognize the power of ideas and the instinctive desire for rights and freedoms among their populations, even in societies that have never experienced democracy. The success of democratic movements, such as Ukraine's shift towards a more open system, inspires autocratic states to support one another and suppress democratic uprisings. Additionally, Western democracies have enabled these autocratic regimes through financial investments and the expropriation of wealth. The battle over the world order is not just about specific territories, but also about the ideological struggle between democracy and autocracy.
International financial system and corruption: The international financial system facilitated corruption during the 1990s by enabling autocratic leaders to launder money, acquire assets, and become wealthy, impoverishing their own countries and enriching themselves at the expense of their people. To combat this, it's essential to address corruption in our own systems and ensure economic engagement does not empower corrupt leaders.
During the 1990s, many Western entities knowingly facilitated the ill-gotten gains of autocratic leaders, such as Russia's Putin and Russia's oligarchs, by providing them with financial services and assistance, enabling them to launder money, acquire assets, and become wealthy. This cooperation, driven by the belief that engagement with former totalitarian or communist regimes would lead to political change and economic integration, ultimately allowed these leaders to impoverish their own countries and enrich themselves at the expense of their people. The international financial system played a significant role in this new form of corruption, which is now prevalent in many dictatorships and democracies worldwide. To combat this, it's essential to address corruption in our own systems, such as abolishing anonymous companies and tax havens, and ensuring that economic engagement does not empower corrupt leaders. The optimism and faith in the power of ideas and material abundance during this period blinded us to the potential risks and consequences of our actions.
Power plays and international norms: Putin's invasion of Ukraine was a power play to disregard international rules, potentially emboldening other countries. Upholding international norms and supporting democratic allies is crucial for American democracy and identity, and for preserving the economic and political benefits of the rules-based order.
Putin's invasion of Ukraine was not just about ideology, but also a power play to show that he could disregard international rules and consequences. This could have wider implications, as other countries might feel emboldened to act similarly. The United States and its allies have stepped in to block this, not only due to the atrocities committed in Ukraine but also to preserve the international system that benefits the US economically and politically. Allies are crucial for American democracy and identity, and their support helps uphold the rules-based order. If America is seen as transactional and self-interested, it could lead to a loss of unique values and freedoms, and even a shift towards autocracy. The ongoing conversation about Ukraine reveals the stakes, with some arguing against intervention due to personal interests or ideologies. It's essential to remember the importance of upholding international norms and supporting democratic allies.
Motivations for Russian and US actions in Ukraine: Russian claims of NATO aggression are unfounded, peaceful resolution in Ukraine was unlikely early on, and both US and Russian actions may be driven by business interests and political ideologies
Despite Russian claims, NATO is a defensive alliance and has no intention of invading Russia. The recent Finnish joining of NATO and subsequent Russian troop withdrawal from the Finnish border serves as evidence. Additionally, there was no moment early in the Ukraine conflict when a peaceful resolution could have been achieved. As for David Sachs and Elon Musk's interest in the conflict, it's speculated that they may have business interests in Russia. Trump's support for Russia can be attributed to his transactional nature and disinterest in democratic values. Many find Trump's norm violations entertaining rather than concerning, making it difficult for people to take him seriously as a threat. This entertainment factor, combined with Trump's lack of grand ambitions, allows some to overlook his malignant narcissism and ethical concerns. Ultimately, understanding these complex motivations and perceptions is crucial to grasping the current geopolitical landscape.
Democratic institutions and rule of law: Recognizing the complexity of policy discussions, Trump and some politicians shifted towards identity politics and spectacle, which can lead to a hollowing out of democratic institutions and a decline in the functioning of democratic processes
While policy discussions are important in politics, they can be complex and difficult to understand for many people. Trump, and to some extent the left, recognized this and pivoted towards identity politics and spectacle to re-engage the public. However, this shift towards easier, more emotionally charged issues can lead to a hollowing out of institutions and a decline in the functioning of democratic processes. Trump's primary interest in himself and his own gain puts him in line with modern autocrats, and his pandering to the extreme right wing has led to threats and violence against election officials and other ordinary citizens. The danger lies not in the immediate threat of fascism or dictatorship, but in the slow erosion of democratic institutions and the rule of law.
Political climate under threat: Former President Trump's use of social media to spread lies and incite followers has created a volatile situation where democracy is under threat, leading to violence, fear, and intimidation for local officials and everyday citizens. The long-term consequences could be disastrous, with the potential for a gradual decline in government institutions and the rule of law.
The current political climate in America, fueled by former President Trump and his supporters, has led to a dangerous and volatile situation where democracy is under threat. This is not just limited to high-profile figures like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney, but extends to local officials and everyday citizens who are experiencing violence, fear, and intimidation. Trump's irresponsible use of social media to spread lies and incite his followers has created an atmosphere of chaos and apathy, with many Americans withdrawing from politics due to the discomfort and confusion caused by the constant stream of false information. The long-term consequences of this could be disastrous, with the potential for a gradual decline in government institutions and the rule of law. The ideological and systematic figures surrounding Trump, such as Steve Bannon, also pose a significant threat as they actively work to change the nature of the American state.
Erosion of democratic norms: The presence of individuals who may want to alter democratic institutions can lead to significant changes towards authoritarianism, potentially eroding democratic norms and societal stability.
The decline of democratic institutions and the increase of fear and mistrust in government can lead to significant changes in the political landscape. Sam Harris shares his concerns about the current political situation in the United States, specifically regarding the presence of individuals around former President Trump who may want to alter the way state and state institutions function. Although Harris doesn't use the term "fascism," he expresses worry about the potential for a shift towards authoritarianism and the erosion of democratic norms. The presence of such individuals, both ideologues and practitioners, could enable this change. Harris emphasizes the importance of being aware of these developments and the potential consequences they may have on society.