Podcast Summary
Tom Holland's Surprising View on Christianity's Influence: Tom Holland believes Christianity's impact on society goes beyond believers, shaping our values and institutions.
During this Christmas day special episode of "Leading," Tom Holland shared his controversial idea that the world is more Christian than we realize, despite many not identifying as such. The conversation began with Tom expressing his surprise at attending a carol service at Lambeth Palace alongside Tom and Rory, despite his public stance against belief in God. The trio then delved into the topic of religion and politics, with Tom arguing that Christianity's influence extends beyond its followers, shaping the very fabric of our society. This intriguing discussion was a perfect way to explore the intersection of faith and politics during the holiday season. Listeners can continue to explore these ideas further by signing up for the ad-free version of "The Rest is Politics" and checking out Tom's other podcast, "The Rest is History."
The Christian faith's influence on Western history and culture: The Christian tradition, with its emphasis on powerlessness, caring for the less fortunate, and divine humility, has significantly shaped Western history and culture, influencing political and social structures, even if not consciously acknowledged.
Our perspectives on the Christian faith, particularly the significance of Christmas and Jesus' birth, can fluctuate between belief and skepticism. However, regardless of our personal beliefs, the Christian tradition has had a profound impact on Western history and culture. The idea of power being found in powerlessness, the importance of caring for the less fortunate, and the belief that the divine can manifest in humility are just a few transformative notions that originated from this tradition. These ideas have shaped political and social structures, and continue to influence our modern world, even if we're not consciously aware of their origins. As a historian, Alastair Brown acknowledges that there is only one fact related to Jesus' life that is historically verifiable, but the impact of the Christian faith on our world goes beyond factual details.
Europe's first revolutionary society during the Middle Ages: The Middle Ages introduced the revolutionary idea of a sovereign sense of justice for every Christian, shaping history into the modern period and influencing later movements such as the Reformation, Enlightenment, and revolutions.
The Middle Ages, often perceived as a hidebound and reactionary period, was in fact Europe's first great revolutionary society. This revolution was inspired by the Christian belief in the secular and the religio, which led to the Church's claim to sovereignty and the establishment of a sense of justice that transcended earthly power. This division of the world into secular and religious spheres had profound implications, shaping the course of history into the modern period. Despite the significant wealth and power disparities of the time, the notion of a sovereign sense of justice for every Christian, regardless of their social status, was a revolutionary idea that influenced later movements such as the Reformation, the Enlightenment, and even the French and Russian Revolutions. This concept, bred from theology and the desire to give all Christians an appeal that transcended earthly power, was a fundamental shift that continues to influence Western thought.
The roots of human rights in Christian teachings: Christian teachings from the 12th century laid the foundation for modern human rights, emphasizing the rights of the poor to basic necessities, which significantly influenced Western civilization.
The concept of human rights, which is deeply ingrained in Western society today, has its roots in Christian teachings from the 12th century. Monks looked to the Gospels for guidance on laws for the Christian community, leading to the belief that the poor had rights to basic necessities like food, water, clothing, and shelter. This idea has influenced Western civilization significantly, even for those who may not be consciously Christian. However, it's essential to recognize that secular society's fundamental assumptions are rooted in Christian history, creating a tension for those practicing other religions living in Western secular states. The ideas of secular society are not absolute but rather culturally contingent and bred of specific civilizational circumstances. During times of conflict, such as the ongoing situation in Israel and Gaza, devout Christians and Muslims may feel conflicted while celebrating holidays like Christmas, recognizing the contrast between the joy and peace associated with the holiday and the reality of ongoing conflicts.
Historical and religious context of Israel-Palestine conflict: The Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply rooted in history and religious beliefs, contributing to its intensity and complexity. Both sides frame their appeals for Western support based on these historical and emotional connections.
The Israel-Palestine conflict is deeply rooted in history and influenced by religious beliefs, particularly those related to the Holy Land. Christians, Jews, and Muslims all hold significant emotional connections to this small plot of land, which contributes to the heightened intensity and complexity of the conflict. Historically, the region has been a site of intense conflict and emotional investment, with various groups vying for control and claiming victimhood. This sensibility is reflected in the way both sides frame their appeals for Western support. While the conflict is complex and nuanced, it is important to acknowledge the historical and religious context that shapes it.
People's perspectives on conflicts influenced by historical and political beliefs: Understanding individuals' narratives about conflicts can reveal insights into their broader worldviews. Personal experiences and connections can also shape unique understandings.
People's perspectives on current conflicts, such as the Israel-Palestine situation, are heavily influenced by their historical and political beliefs. The way individuals interpret this conflict is often a reflection of their broader worldview. For instance, some may see it as an expression of European imperialism, American hyper power, or Western civilization under attack. Understanding these narratives can provide insight into people's perspectives on various issues. Additionally, personal experiences and being directly impacted by the conflict can lead to unique and nuanced understandings that may not be fully captured by these broader narratives. The Obama donation story shared by Anthony Scaramucci was a real-life example of how personal connections can influence political involvement.
The Role of Religion in Politics: UK vs US: Despite the UK's 'no God' image, Christianity's influence remains significant. Politicians in both countries have been shaped by their faith, even if they don't publicly admit it.
The relationship between religion and politics varies significantly between the UK and the US. In the UK, politicians generally keep their faith private, while in America, religion plays a more overt role in politics. This difference can be traced back to each country's unique historical context and the way Christianity has influenced their respective political landscapes. The 1960s marked a period of profound change, with Christian teachings being transformed into a cultural "vibe" in the US and UK. However, despite the British assertion that they "don't do God," the speaker argues that people's beliefs, values, and assumptions are still deeply shaped by the Christian legacy. Many prime ministers and presidents have been influenced by their Christian upbringing, even if they don't openly express it. The speaker also touches upon the puzzling alliance between evangelical Christians and Trump, a seemingly irreligious figure, in the US.
A Christian Civil War: Culture Wars as a Battle Within: The culture wars are rooted in deeply held Christian beliefs, making it a Christian civil war, and the embrace of unchristian figures like Boris Johnson and Donald Trump by Evangelicals stems from their perception of these leaders as allies against perceived persecution.
The culture wars in the West, particularly in America, can be seen as a Christian civil war, as arguments on issues like trans rights, gay rights, and feminism draw from deeply held Christian assumptions despite appearing unchristian to some. Evangelicals' embrace of unchristian figures like Boris Johnson and Donald Trump can be explained by their perception of these leaders as allies in the face of perceived persecution and the profound nature of these cultural debates. The religious element in movements like wokeness also adds complexity to the intersection of politics and religion.
A modern challenge to traditional hierarchies and norms: The 'wokeness' ideology, rooted in secularism and challenging Christian assumptions, has led to societal changes, impacting humanitarian efforts and international solidarity.
The ideology known as "wokeness" can be seen as a modern manifestation of a post- or even anti-Christian worldview, which challenges traditional hierarchies and upends established norms. This perspective, which emphasizes the idea that the last shall be first, has led to numerous convulsive changes throughout European and Western civilization over the past millennium. It's important to note that secularism and its associated ideologies, such as Darwinism and transhumanism, also challenge certain Christian assumptions, like the inherent dignity of every human being. Furthermore, the decline in religious attendance and the weakening of institutions like churches and trade unions, which have historically fostered international solidarity and humanitarian efforts, have significant social impacts, particularly on the global fight against extreme poverty. Ultimately, the question remains: When the roots of our civilization begin to wither, what will become of the bloom? The future is uncertain, but possible outcomes include continued growth, stagnation, or even collapse.
The impact of Christianity on societal values: Christianity's role in shaping societal values, such as compassion towards the poor, is debated. Some argue it's necessary, others say it's independent. Concerns exist about a return to pre-Christian values, which could disregard the weak and poor. Religion can be used to justify both welcoming and excluding refugees.
The role of religion, specifically Christianity, in shaping societal values, such as compassion towards the poor and needy, is a topic of ongoing debate. Some argue that these values can exist independently of religious teachings, while others suggest that religious belief may be necessary to sustain them. Additionally, there is a concern that a resurgence of a pre-Christian perspective, which celebrates wealth and power, could lead to a disregard for the weak and the poor. However, there are also instances where religious beliefs have been used to justify both welcoming refugees and keeping them out. Ultimately, the impact of religion on societal values is complex and multifaceted, and it is important to recognize the potential for both positive and negative outcomes. The speaker also expressed frustration with individuals who use their religious faith to spread misinformation and hate speech, while hypocrisy has been a persistent issue throughout history in the context of Christian charity.
Childhood fascination with history and influence of religion: Historian Roger Collins' interest in leadership and the past was shaped by his childhood fascination with history and the lasting impact of his mother's strong religious faith.
Throughout history, different societies have valued various qualities in political leaders, with charisma and greatness being highly regarded in some cultures. For instance, Julius Caesar embodied these traits and was deeply admired by the Romans. Roger Collins, a historian, was drawn to the thrill and excitement of the past from a young age, influenced by his childhood fascination with dinosaurs and the rich history surrounding him in Wiltshire, England. His relationship with Christianity was also formative, as his mother's strong faith left a lasting impact on him. These experiences shaped his perspective on leadership and the past, leading him to become a historian.
Traditions breeding upheaval: Historian Tom Holland argues that deep-rooted traditions can foster a desire to recalibrate or even eradicate them, using the French Revolution and US politics as examples. Jesus' teachings on the kingdom of God could be seen as subversive to those in power.
While some people, like the speaker, may value tradition and history as part of their political beliefs, others, like historian Tom Holland, may not feel the same instinctive connection. Holland argues that living in a society with deep-rooted traditions can actually foster the desire to recalibrate and even eradicate those traditions. He uses the examples of the French Revolution and the current political climate in the United States to illustrate this point. Additionally, Holland suggests that Jesus' teachings of the kingdom of God being separate from earthly rule and kingdoms could be seen as subversive and unsettling to those in power during his time. Ultimately, the relationship between conservative and radical instincts is more complex than it may seem, and traditions themselves can breed upheaval.
Exploring the Intersection of Islam and Human Rights with Tom Holland: Tom Holland and Alastair discussed the profound impact of religious traditions, including Islam, on human values and the importance of nuanced discussions on religious and cultural complexities.
Tom Holland, a renowned historian, is known for his extensive research and deep knowledge of various historical and religious topics. During a discussion about Christianity, he brought up the importance of recognizing the influence of different religious traditions on human rights and values. Alastair, a podcast host, shared his admiration for Holland's work and expressed his interest in exploring the intersection of Islam and human rights with him. However, Alastair emphasized the importance of acknowledging the limitations of representation and the complexity of defining and speaking about Islam. Tom Holland's courage to address a wide range of controversial topics, including Islam, has earned him both admiration and criticism. Overall, the conversation highlighted the importance of recognizing the profound impact of various religious traditions on human values and the need for nuanced discussions on religious and cultural complexities.
Religion extends beyond texts, encompasses history and experiences: Politicians in secular societies present themselves as religious for public support, while faith plays a significant role in politics in religious societies
Religion goes beyond what is written in sacred texts and encompasses history, society, community, and personal experiences. This was a point of disagreement with former British Prime Minister Tony Blair's assertion that he understood Islam based on his reading of the Quran. In the Islamic world, faith plays a significant role in politics, and leaders must be deeply committed to their faith to be effective. In secular societies like Britain and the US, where church attendance is declining, politicians continue to present themselves as religious, possibly to reassure the public and gain support. The changing political landscape, where a Hindu prime minister in Britain and a Muslim first minister in Scotland are accepted, is a remarkable development in religious diversity and secularism. The public's psychological response to religious politicians remains an intriguing question.
