Podcast Summary
Forced out of her own company for advocating for trans inclusion: Diversity and inclusion conversations are crucial in the arts, but can be met with resistance and betrayal, requiring open dialogue and education.
The dance industry, like many others, is facing complex issues around inclusivity and representation. Rosie Kaye, a dancer and choreographer, shared her experience of being forced out of her own company for wanting to cast a trans person in a role. She was ostracized and felt betrayed by the leadership, who were more concerned with maintaining their reputation and keeping the organization afloat. This incident highlights the need for open conversations and education around diversity and inclusion in the arts. Kaye's journey from a young dancer to a successful choreographer, inspired by political female choreographers, is a testament to her resilience and passion for storytelling through dance. Despite the challenges she faced, she continues to make art that challenges the status quo and pushes boundaries.
Experience of a dance company director ostracized for expressing views: Expressing unpopular opinions can lead to investigations and backlash, even if you've handed over control. Open and respectful dialogue is crucial.
Holding onto power and control in a professional setting can be crucial for protecting personal beliefs and avoiding potential backlash. The speaker, a dance company director, shared her experience of being ostracized and investigated after expressing her views on women's rights and biology during a late-night argument. Despite being the founder and having handed over control to a charity, she was still subjected to investigations and felt a "wall of woke hate." This experience underscores the importance of understanding the potential consequences of relinquishing power and control, especially in sensitive and contentious discussions. It also highlights the need for open and respectful dialogue, acknowledging that adults are allowed to have differing opinions.
Workplace disputes can escalate into legal issues and damage relationships: Open and respectful discussions about contentious issues are crucial for the growth and progress of the arts and culture sector
Workplace disputes, even if they start from a heated discussion, can escalate into significant legal issues and cause irreparable damage to trust and relationships. The speaker's experience of being in a controversial and taboo subject field, coupled with a culture of intolerance towards differing opinions in certain institutions, led to a series of events that resulted in legal battles, resignation, and the eventual folding of the company. The vulnerable position of the artist, who is meant to challenge and explore controversial subjects, was further complicated by the changing demographics and financial realities of the industry. Ultimately, the inability to have open and respectful discussions about contentious issues can hinder the growth and progress of the arts and culture sector as a whole.
A Dangerous Erosion of Depth and Rigor in the Arts: Activists, underfunded administrators, and a lack of leadership threaten the arts with a culture of self-destruction, leading to a loss of rigorous training and authentic expression.
The arts world is facing a significant threat from within, with activists, underfunded administrators, and a lack of leadership contributing to a dangerous erosion of depth and rigor. Speaking out has become a dangerous proposition, leading to a chilling effect on artistic expression. Young artists lacking discipline and skill are making names for themselves through mass complaints, while a new class of administrators wields power and control. Leaders in the arts sector, many of whom come from an older generation, are prioritizing their own salaries and reputations over standing up for the arts. This has led to a culture of self-destruction, where the very foundations of artistic excellence are being eroded. The loss of rigorous training in Shakespeare, ballet, and other disciplines is leaving artists without the necessary depth and skill to create meaningful art. The result is a focus on identities over art, and a lack of authentic expression. The arts world is at risk of losing its core values, and urgent action is needed to preserve its rich heritage and ensure its continued relevance and impact.
Exploring the depths and heights of humanity through art: Artists should focus on expressing themselves freely without being defined by their identities or victimhood to create authentic works.
In the creative process, freedom to express, disagree, and focus on the art form itself is crucial. The artist should aim to explore the depths and heights of humanity, free from performative identities and personal biases. The importance of art for humanity, culture, civilization, and society cannot be overstated. The artist's role is to be a vessel for the art, not a seller of their identity or victimhood. The focus on identity and victimhood can hinder creativity and the artistic process. Instead, artists should strive to work through their selves and become a vehicle for their art. The conversation also touched upon the idea that in today's world, individuals often define themselves through their identities and victimhood, which can be a barrier to creativity and authentic expression.
Identity politics in arts can limit artists: Artists may self-censor and focus on external criteria due to identity politics, leading to a cycle of judgment based on identity rather than merit. Ultimately, the goal should be to let the audience decide the value of a work and for artists to focus on creating authentic pieces.
The identity politics and judgment value system in the arts world can be limiting and oppressive for artists, leading to self-censorship and a focus on fulfilling external criteria rather than creating authentic works. This can result in a perpetuating cycle where artists are judged based on their identity rather than the merit of their art. The tension lies between rejecting identity and being inspired by it. It's important to remember that the ultimate goal should be to let the audience decide the value of a work and for artists to put their best efforts into creating as good a piece as possible. The discussion also touched on the potential negative effects of labeling and transing iconic female characters, and the importance of considering the historical significance of these figures.
Navigating Challenges as a Woman in the Arts Industry: The arts industry can be challenging for women, marked by a lack of representation and objectification. Older women sharing experiences with younger generations is crucial for creating a more equitable environment.
Growing up as a woman in the arts industry has been a challenging experience, marked by a lack of representation and objectification. The speaker shared her personal experiences of navigating this landscape, from feeling like an outsider as a curious and quiet child to becoming an object of constant commentary on her appearance during adolescence. She also highlighted the lack of female representation in the arts, from theater directors and playwrights to books and heroes. The speaker emphasized the importance of older women sharing their experiences with younger generations, as life is long and women's lives are long. She also acknowledged the prevalence of power abuse in the arts industry, particularly towards women. The speaker's story underscores the need for greater representation and a more equitable environment for women in the arts.
Navigating the dance world as a young artist: Supportive mentors vs exploitative elders: Treat people well, earn respect, and foster resilience by disagreeing with authority figures and staying engaged in society beyond one's career. Understand and implement inclusive practices.
Navigating the dance world as a young artist involved dealing with both supportive older women and those who took advantage. The speaker emphasized the importance of treating people well and not continuing harmful patterns. However, she also expressed concern that today's overly nice and indulgent environment might be contributing to a lack of resilience and critical thinking skills in younger generations. The speaker shared her experience of disagreeing with authority figures as a young person and the importance of earning one's stripes. She also acknowledged the potential for becoming the very parents she once argued against and the importance of staying engaged in various aspects of society beyond one's career. The conversation touched upon the concept of white privilege and the importance of understanding and implementing inclusive practices, with the speaker expressing disappointment when those leading such initiatives were not familiar with foundational texts like Peggy McIntosh's essay.
Arts sector facing crisis as it becomes dominated by wealthy and upper classes: Historical shift in arts funding led to increased bureaucracy, business requirements, and difficulty for younger artists to advance, requiring action from the 'sandwich generation' and acknowledgement of working-class artists' historical significance
The arts sector, which has historically been a bastion for diversity and representation, is now facing a crisis as it becomes increasingly dominated by the wealthy and upper classes. This shift began in the 1980s when arts funding became politicized and artists were given more freedom, but also had to justify their work for social welfare purposes. In the 1990s and 2000s, the arts were used for regeneration projects, bringing in large amounts of funding but also increasing bureaucracy and business requirements. As a result, younger artists are bypassing the "sandwich generation" of artists in their thirties and forties who are finding it difficult to advance in their careers. To address this issue, it's important for this generation to speak out and take control, while also acknowledging the historical significance of working-class actors and artists in the arts scene.
Arts world controversy and the importance of understanding IP and governance: Artists and arts organizations must navigate complex issues of identity, inclusion, and funding from corporations while upskilling in areas like governance and legal advice to protect themselves and the community.
The arts world, even for small organizations, can be a breeding ground for controversy and backlash, especially when it comes to issues of identity and inclusion. This was exemplified by a situation where a dance company's artistic director, Rosie Keddon, shared a tweet from JK Rowling that led to accusations of transphobia and a call to scrutinize the company's policies. Despite the controversy, Rosie continued to create and perform, but she realized the importance of understanding intellectual property and governance to protect herself and the arts community. Another key point is the tension between the arts and corporates, as receiving funding from corporations can limit an artist's ability to be truly rebellious. Ultimately, Rosie advocates for artists and the arts community to upskill themselves in areas like governance and legal advice to navigate these complex issues.
Pushing Boundaries in the Arts: Overcoming Challenges: To save the arts, we must innovate, focus on public demand, and bypass gatekeepers by proving content popularity.
The arts sector is facing challenges, with some institutions becoming stagnant and overly reliant on brand consistency, while others are pushing boundaries. The need for change is evident, but fear of backlash and ideological influences in learning departments can hinder progress. To save the arts, we must continue creating and advocating for our work, focusing on what the public wants rather than ideology. Gatekeepers can be a barrier, but proving the popularity of our content is a way to bypass them. The arts have the power to transform lives, and it's essential to keep pushing for innovation and inclusivity.
The power of live arts to connect and communicate deep humanity: Despite declining audiences and ideologically charged works, the speaker values live arts as a means to communicate deep humanity and connect people, sharing a personal experience of her father's impact from a live performance and her own creation of a performance piece exploring the body and soul in warfare.
The future of live arts and performance is under threat due to declining audiences and the rise of ideologically charged works. However, the speaker strongly believes in the importance of live arts as a means to communicate deep humanity and connect people. The speaker shares a personal experience of witnessing the impact of a live performance on her father, emphasizing the primal and powerful nature of live storytelling. The speaker also shares her own experience of injury and recovery, which led her to question the relationship between the body and the soul, and inspired her to create a performance piece, "5 soldiers," exploring the essential role of the human body in warfare. Despite the challenges, the speaker remains committed to the value of live arts and performance, and the need for people to come together around a metaphorical campfire to tell stories.
An artist's journey into military life: Through immersion and personal experience, an artist gained new insights into the lives of soldiers, creating a powerful dance piece that brought recognition to the often overlooked realities of military life.
Artist and choreographer, Jonas, sought to understand the physical and emotional experiences of soldiers by immersing himself in their training. He went from being a terrified bystander to a trained soldier, experiencing the intensity of military life firsthand. This experience led him to create a dance piece that captured the realness of war, providing an insight into the lives of soldiers that the public often overlooks. The show, which was initially met with modest success, gained significant recognition in the arts world a few years later, with 5-star reviews and global tours. Jonas believes that creating art about fighting helps him remember the discipline and relevance of military life, which was brought back into focus during the Afghanistan evacuation.
Exploring the depths of human experience through art: Art, especially dance, connects us to our bodies and elicits joy, pleasure, and fulfillment. Support artists who explore deep, unfashionable themes.
Art, particularly dance, plays a crucial role in expressing complex contradictions and emotions, especially during times of conflict and uncertainty. Rosie Kearns, a dance artist, emphasizes the importance of authentic storytelling and the exploration of deep, unfashionable themes like joy, pleasure, and fun. She believes that art can help us connect with our bodies and experience true fulfillment, reminding us to not discard the mind-body connection. Rosie encourages us to seek out joy and beauty in the world and to support artists who elicit these feelings. Join Rosie and other like-minded individuals in exploring the depths of human experience through art by becoming a member for extended, ad-free interviews.
