Logo
    Search

    Jack Smith’s D.C. Indictment Decision: A Conversation with Judge Luttig

    enJuly 31, 2023

    Podcast Summary

    • Judge Luttig's crucial role in upholding the rule of law during the 2020 transitionPolitical beliefs should not influence upholding the law; Judge Luttig's actions remind us of this principle, while delays in legal proceedings due to lack of local counsel highlight the importance of adhering to legal procedures.

      Former federal judge Michael Luttig played a crucial role in upholding the rule of law during the 2020 presidential transition by providing the legal justification for Vice President Mike Pence to reject efforts to overturn the election results. Luttig's testimony is a reminder that political beliefs are irrelevant when it comes to upholding the law. Meanwhile, in the ongoing investigation into the mishandling of classified documents, the planned arraignment of a new defendant in Florida was delayed due to a lack of a locally licensed attorney, potentially causing further delays in the proceedings. This underscores the importance of complying with legal procedures and the potential consequences of not doing so.

    • Legal Proceedings Against Trump: Complex and UncertainThe legal proceedings against Trump involve multiple cases and trials with uncertain timelines, potentially overlapping from March 2024 to September 2024, and could continue for at least the next 16 months.

      The legal proceedings against former President Donald Trump are becoming increasingly complex, with multiple cases and trials potentially overlapping. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg has expressed a commitment to justice, suggesting that the federal government's case could take priority over his own. The timeline for these trials is still uncertain, with potential dates ranging from March 2024 to September 2024. Additionally, Fani Willis, the Fulton County District Attorney, has announced that she will make an announcement regarding her case by September 1st, pushing back the initial expected timeline. The addition of new defendants and charges in the Mar-a-Lago case could also lead to a later trial date. The legal proceedings against Trump are expected to continue for at least the next 16 months, with several challenges and hearings scheduled along the way.

    • Judiciary's commitment to upholding the law determines Trump trial timingThe timing of Trump's trial will be decided by the judiciary, focusing on legal procedures, regardless of political pressures.

      The timing of a potential trial for former President Donald Trump regarding the January 6th case and other pending investigations will primarily be determined by the federal judiciary, with little consideration given to political pressures. As a former judge, Michael Luttig emphasized that the judiciary remains impartial and focuses on legal procedures, despite the high-stakes nature of the cases. The courts have the authority to decide when such trials will take place, and it is expected that at least one of these cases will proceed before the 2022 election. Luttig, a vocal advocate for the rule of law, believes that the judiciary's commitment to upholding the law is crucial in maintaining the democratic process.

    • Vice President Pence received misguided advice on election overturnDespite lacking the power, VP Pence received advice to overturn election results. Trials against Trump can proceed respecting due process

      During the January 6th insurrection, Vice President Pence received advice from John Eastman suggesting he had the power to overturn the election results. This advice came despite the fact that such authority did not exist. Judge Ludwig, a close friend of Pence and former colleague of Eastman, was contacted by Pence's counsel, Richard Cullen, who relayed this information. Ludwig made it clear to Cullen that Pence lacked such power, and he was not shocked by the revelation given his long experience in politics. The defenses that former President Trump would raise in any potential trials, including executive privilege, have already been decided in federal courts. Therefore, it is possible for trials to proceed while still honoring the due process rights of the defendants.

    • Finding ways to contribute during uncertain timesEven when feeling powerless, individuals can make a difference through communication tools like social media.

      Even when faced with a critical moment in history, some individuals may feel powerless and unsure of their role. The speaker in this discussion, a retired political figure, was urged by a friend to use his voice to make a difference during a pivotal time. However, he felt that he had no platform or means to do so. Despite his uncertainty, he eventually used Twitter to share his thoughts, marking a significant moment in the political landscape. This anecdote highlights the importance of finding ways to contribute, even when it seems impossible, and the potential impact of using social media as a tool for communication.

    • Judge's tweet reaches vice president during election disputeSocial media can have unexpected impacts, even for judges. A tweet about election disputes was referenced in a vice president's letter, emphasizing the potential reach and influence of online platforms.

      The power of social media and the unexpected can lead to significant impact. The speaker, a judge, shared his experience of tweeting about the former president's election disputes and being cited by the vice president in his letter refusing to overturn the election results. The judge had no idea of the impact his tweet would have, and it ended up being a crucial legal opinion referenced in the vice president's decision. This incident highlights the potential reach and influence of social media, even when one is unsure of who may be reading or reacting to their posts. Additionally, the judge's dedication to researching every detail of the issue demonstrates the importance of being well-informed and prepared for unexpected events.

    • Trump's Betrayal: Threats to US Elections and Civic DutyFormer President Trump's actions to overturn a fair election and obstruct Congress from counting votes are seen as the gravest offenses a sitting president could commit, posing a significant threat to US democracy and civic duty.

      The ongoing investigation into former President Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results and his role in the January 6th Capitol attack are seen as the gravest offenses a sitting president could commit against the United States, short of treason. According to the speaker, Trump's actions, which included provoking the Department of Justice and taunting the idea of being indicted, led to these potential charges. The speaker emphasizes that Trump's betrayal of the nation, as evidenced by his attempts to overturn a fair election and obstruct the joint session from counting votes, makes these offenses a significant threat to the United States. The speaker also emphasized the importance of civic duty and complying with congressional subpoenas.

    • Historic Potential of Trump Indictment During CampaignA potential Trump indictment during his 2024 campaign could damage US reputation and highlight the importance of upholding the rule of law, with Judge Ludwig's courageous actions serving as a beacon.

      The ongoing legal proceedings against former President Donald Trump could potentially create a historic spectacle if he is indicted during his 2024 presidential campaign. This would be a first in American history and could significantly damage the country's reputation both domestically and internationally. The discussion also highlighted the importance of individuals with integrity and backbone in upholding the rule of law and preventing potential crises. Judge Ludwig, a key figure in the proceedings, was praised for her courage and service. The conversation underscored the significance of this moment for American democracy and the importance of continued vigilance and engagement from citizens.

    Recent Episodes from Prosecuting Donald Trump

    ‘A Dessert Topping and a Floor Wax’

    ‘A Dessert Topping and a Floor Wax’

    There has been a slew of hearings before Judge Aileen Cannon in the Florida documents case over the past few days, and veteran prosecutors Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord examine why some of these seem like unnecessary delays. Then, why Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg is asking for the limited gag order to continue in New York as Donald Trump awaits sentencing. And lastly, Mary and Andrew game out some scenarios as we hurry up and wait for the Supreme Court to decide on presidential immunity.

    Also, an exciting announcement! On Saturday, September 7th, MSNBC will be hosting a live event in Brooklyn called “MSNBC Live: Democracy 2024”. It will be your chance to hear thought-provoking conversations about the most pressing issues of our time, and to do so in person with some of your favorite MSNBC hosts. You can also take part in a sit-down dinner for an insider’s view of the upcoming election. Visit https://www.msnbc.com/DEMOCRACY2024 to learn more.

    Trigger Avenue

    Trigger Avenue

    This week, MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord dive deep into several pending motions, including Jack Smith’s pre-trial motion to modify Trump's conditions of release in the Florida documents case, which would effectively impose a gag order, just under a different legal principle. Plus: Trump’s push to end the post-trial gag order in New York. And what's at issue in the suppression motion also filed in Florida that Judge Cannon will hear next Tuesday. Last up: a preview of Fischer v. United States, a pending Supreme Court case that could have a trickle-down effect on Trump’s DC case.

    Note: Listeners can send questions to: ProsecutingTrumpQuestions@nbcuni.com

    Post-Trial and Pre-Trial

    Post-Trial and Pre-Trial

    Former President Trump awaits his sentencing in New York, but he wants the gag order lifted in the meantime. Is that typical? Veteran prosecutors Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord break down that motion, and the mechanics of sentencing in the lead up to July 11th. They also highlight Attorney General Merrick Garland’s recent op-ed calling for an end to escalated assaults on our judicial system in the wake of Trump’s verdict in Manhattan. Last up, Andrew and Mary scrutinize Judge Cannon’s schedule revisions for several motions in Florida documents case, and analyze the significance of Georgia racketeering case being stayed pending appeal.

    Further reading: Here is Attorney General Merrick Garland’s OpEd in the Washington Post that Andrew and Mary spoke about: Opinion- Merrick Garland: Unfounded attacks on the Justice Department must end

    Note: Listeners can send questions to: ProsecutingTrumpQuestions@nbcuni.com

    BONUS: Season 2 of “Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra”

    BONUS: Season 2 of “Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra”

    As a bonus for listeners, we’re sharing a special preview of the second season of the award-winning original series, “Rachel Maddow Presents: Ultra.” In the chart-topping second season, Rachel Maddow returns to uncover the shocking history of the ultra-right’s reach into American politics. Listen to the entire first episode now, and follow the show to get the whole series: https://link.chtbl.com/rmpust_fdlw. You can also subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access to every episode the Friday before it drops, and ad-free listening to all episodes of Ultra seasons one and two.

    The Disinformation Campaign

    The Disinformation Campaign

    It’s been less than a week since the jury reached a verdict in Donald Trump’s criminal trial and the political spin on the result is dizzying. MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord seek to debunk several claims entered into the public discourse, especially around the Department of Justice being involved in a state case and that the trial was somehow ‘rigged’. They also address some breaking news out of Wisconsin, where Kenneth Chesebro, Jim Troupis and Michael Roman were criminally charged in that state's  fake elector scheme. Then, Andrew and Mary review the latest in Florida after Special Counsel Jack Smith refiled his motion to bar Trump from making statements that endanger law enforcement.

    Note: Listeners can send questions to: ProsecutingTrumpQuestions@nbcuni.com

    BONUS: Witness to History

    BONUS: Witness to History

    In a new special, Andrew Weissmann, Rachel Maddow and our team give an intimate and personal look inside the Trump courtroom. They tell some never-before-heard stories about what it was like to witness, firsthand, some of the most explosive moments of the trial. In addition to Rachel and Andrew, you'll hear from Joy Reid, Lawrence O’Donnell, Chris Hayes, Katie Phang, Lisa Rubin, Yasmin Vossoughian, and Laura Jarrett. Together, they share what it was like to witness history from the Manhattan Criminal Courthouse.

    In Closing

    In Closing

    It’s a historic moment, as the country awaits the jury’s verdict in the first ever criminal trial of a former president. To assess the gravity of what each side needed to convey in summations, MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord scrutinize the approach to closing arguments by both the defense and the prosecution. Then, they turn to the latest from the Florida documents case, where Judge Cannon and Special Counsel Jack Smith are at odds. The issue: Donald Trump’s ‘lies’ posted and amplified, concerning the search warrants executed on his Mar-a-Lago estate in 2022.

    "The E-mail Speaks for Itself"

    "The E-mail Speaks for Itself"

    Ahead of Tuesday’s closing arguments in the first ever criminal trial of a former president, MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord detail Tuesday’s crushing cross examination of Robert Costello by Susan Hoffinger, and what it means for the defense’s attempt to undermine Michael Cohen’s credibility. Then, what listeners should infer from the charging conference- as this determines what the jury can deliberate on. And big picture: what each side needs to accomplish in their respective closing arguments.

    130,000 Reasons

    130,000 Reasons

    Donald Trump’s defense team rested on Tuesday without calling the former President to the stand. But some crucial points were made before the conclusion of Michael Cohen’s cross examination that veteran prosecutors Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord explain in depth. They also weigh in on some courtroom tactics that worked and others that didn’t go over well from both the prosecution and the defense. Plus, Andrew and Mary detail some of the gambits used by defense witness Robert Costello that were admonished by Judge Merchan.

    Related Episodes

    Target Letter

    Target Letter

    MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord react to the breaking news that Donald Trump has received a target letter from Special Counsel Jack Smith in connection withSmith’s investigation into whether any person or entity unlawfully interfered with the transfer of power following the 2020 presidential election or the certification of the Electoral College vote held on or about January 6, 2021. Plus, they answer questions from listeners.

    All Eyes on Judge Cannon

    All Eyes on Judge Cannon

    A big test for Judge Aileen Cannon as Donald Trump tries to delay the Mar-a-Lago documents case until after the 2024 election. MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord weigh in on the possible repercussions of Cannon’s decision. Plus, big developments in GA where a grand jury being seated today could decide whether Trump is charged for trying to overturn his 2020 election loss there.

    The Superseding Indictment

    The Superseding Indictment

    Donald Trump now faces three new felony charges in the Mar-a-Lago documents case. MSNBC analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord dig into Jack Smith’s surprise superseding indictment accusing Trump of trying to delete security footage. Plus, where things stand with the expected indictment in Smith’s 2020 election probe – and signs that things are ramping up in Georgia.

    Government Secrets at Trial

    Government Secrets at Trial

    Judge Aileen Cannon surprised many by setting an Aug. 14th trial date in Donald Trump’s classified documents case – just 2 months from now. But will that date hold and how will the court keep government secrets safe? MSNBC legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord are joined by national security attorney Mark Zaid to break down the Classified Information Procedures Act (CIPA) and how it could impact the case.