Sell The Damn Thing

Episode 8: What It Takes to Support a Black Woman Leader? w/ Kimberly Bryant

Leadership is a collective effort that thrives on support, mentorship, and guidance. In this episode, Kathryn is joined by Kimberly Bryant, Founder of Black Girls Code, who has firsthand experience in supporting leaders and being supported. Together, they unveil the strategies, practices, and nuances that go into fostering a thriving leadership ecosystem.

Guest:

Kimberly Bryant

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Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Episode 7: The Power of Resilience w/Torian Richardson

Resilience is a superpower developed through life's journey, aiding in bouncing back from adversity and learning from experiences. In this episode of "Build The Damn Thing," Kathryn Finney explores "The Power of Resilience." Listen to the inspiring story of Torian Richardson who has faced setbacks, failures, and doubt head-on, emerging even stronger and more determined.

Guests:

Torian Richardson

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Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

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Credits: 

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

Looking At My Blunt (Instrumental)” by YshwaSource: 

          Free Music Archive

          License: CC BY-SA

“Battle Rappers (Instrumental)” by YshwaSource: 

          Free Music Archive

          License: CC BY-SA

 

Full Transcript: 

Kathryn Finney

Welcome back to another episode of Build A Damn Thing. I'm Kathryn Finney. And today we're unlocking the door to a superpower that every entrepreneur possesses the power of resilience. Resilience is what helps us bounce back from adversity, learn from failures, and ultimately thrive. And this episode I'll be chatting with my good friend Ian Richardson, a thought leader, strategist, and change. Agent Torrien is a firm believer in lifelong learning to experience an immersion and his own experiential path, led him to living and working on four continents and traveling to over 35 countries. Welcome back to another episode of Do The Damn Thing. I am so excited to talk to my dear friend, global Traveler fellow EU Ian Richardson. Hi, 

Torian Richardson

Ian. Hey. Hey, hey. How are you? I'm doing outstanding. How are you? 

Kathryn Finney

I'm well. Where are you in the world right now? 

Torian Richardson

I am currently in a city right outside of Free Town in the country of Sierra Leone in West Africa. 

Kathryn Finney

Awesome. 

Torian Richardson

Yes, yes. 

Kathryn Finney

Why are you in Sierra Leone? Because that's not usually, you know, like a place that people find themselves in. 

Torian Richardson

This is true, this is true. Um, so a few years back I actually started the journey of really wanting to know my ancestral heritage, my background, and, uh, just started this journey in two different ways. One from a DNA standpoint, and then the second around the heritage in the United States specifically, uh, business and slave ownership in the South. Just to have a better understanding of my background and where I come from. And so, uh, I reached out to a company called African Ancestry based out of the founders, based out of Howard University, and traced my heritage back to the Timney tribe, as well as the Mindy Tribe here in Sierra Leone. So this trip is an opportunity to one, get to the country, two, to actually go into the areas in which my, um, ancestors are from, and then, uh, go through a naming ceremony and just become reconnected to, uh, my DNA ancestral heritage. So that's why I'm here over the next three weeks. 

Kathryn Finney

It's, it's amazing. I know that you've lived in Africa quite a a bit and was, was based in Nigeria for a while. But before we get to that, really wanna learn more about your path there, because you're from the south side of Chicago. 

Torian Richardson

Um, that is correct. 

Kathryn Finney

Yeah. What I always ask people, 'cause we've interviewed a number of people from the south side, you know, I live in the south side, so I'm like, what part of the south of Chicago were you from? 

Torian Richardson

Well, um, I'm from Auburn Gresham. My, um, my grandmother was on, uh, 85th or 86th in Aberdeen. Um, I lived on, um, Marshfield 82nd and Marshfield for a while, learned how to swim at Foster Park and, uh, spent a majority of my time there. Went to church in the Roseland area, um, as well as, you know, some of the western suburbs. So we moved to Justice, which is kind of west on 87th Street, if you will, straight over. And, uh, my last few years of, uh, high school, I ended up in the western suburbs in the Aurora Naperville area. So my, um, my parents had an opportunity to, uh, give my sister and I a lot of range, and that's really helped me, uh, throughout my life personally and professionally, kind of having that base over the first 18 years of my life 

Kathryn Finney

And having a global mindset. I was talking to someone who, um, also from South side saying about, um, we're talking about the lake, and he was, you know, saying, you know, he was in Auburn Heim as well, and it was like he didn't visit the lake until he was, um, basically an adult. And how, like you mean though, geographically the lake wasn't that far. Um, it was far. Right. And so having this global mindset, being this global citizen, how did you get to that point coming from a space where being a global citizen wasn't necessarily something that was accessible? 

Torian Richardson

That's a great question. Um, I have family privilege and, and family privilege me is, you know, my parents were not, not married, if you will. Uh, but one of the things that they always settled on, even though they had their issues like, like a lot of our families do, yeah. Was that education was important for my sister and I, um, my cousins had access to education, which is, you know, one of the reasons why we were in the western suburbs in, uh, latter part of high school. And, um, and I think that was really important because it just gave us access to people from different places, different socioeconomic backgrounds. And that really helped open up the aperture, maybe not globally, but at least locally, right? So we did go to the lake, we used to go to Rainbow Beach. Um, you know, my mom worked downtown at the main post office, so I remember, uh, when she wasn't taking the train, dropping her off, she used to work nights. And so I would see the skyline of Chicago. I would see airplanes like landing into Midway, and that always piqued my interest. And so I just explored it a little bit more as an adult. But the foundation was surely set, uh, with the family privilege that my, my parents helped set up for us. 

Kathryn Finney

And I think for people who are not from Chicago, the western suburbs is, you know, the Naperville, that sort of Aurora like out there, it's actually quite a distance. It's about an hour away. It's, uh, very affluent, very affluent, um, community. Um, you know, how to have space in yards and things like that where you don't necessarily have on the south side, particularly when you're in the northern part of the south side, maybe if you get a little bit more further south towards the suburbs, you have that sort of thing. So geographically it was this very different, it looked different. 

Torian Richardson

Yes. 

Kathryn Finney

So in the western suburbs had a lot more, uh, students who, you know, you went to school with different people, right? People who were not necessarily black, but you had no, 

Torian Richardson

They were mostly Caucasian. Let me be, let be direct people were Caucasian. That shit's fashionly. True , right? Yeah, yeah. 

Kathryn Finney

Opposed to all these things that are very different. So why you might not have traveled around the world, you know, in your early years you were experienced to people who were not like you. And, um, and it really is a privilege actually, I think to have the experience of being around people who aren't like you and learning from from them. And so here you are, a little, little tour in western suburbs and you played sports, you got a scholarship. Um, yeah. Where did you get the scholarship to? 

Torian Richardson

So, so I ran track in high school. I played a little bit of football as well. And so, um, I had a scholarship to a few places, but I settled on Lewis University where Yeah. Uh, ran track. And the promise was actually that, that they were going to reestablish their football team, which never really happened. Um, so, and we can, we can get into that, uh, as a first generation college student slash graduate, uh, had a lot of fun my first year, um, 

Kathryn Finney

You talk about that. Yes, 

Torian Richardson

Exactly. Exactly. To, to where I had to, um, you know, I had to transfer. I went to a smaller school, got my grades up, and, and uh, when I left there, it was a 3.8, but then the op, the opportunities were there to do and go other places. I actually decided to stay local. Um, my major was finance, and so it was really more of a financial decision. I didn't want to have student loans. I still wanted to play football. Uh, ended up graduating from Benedictine University, which is also in the western suburbs of Chicago. And then from there, uh, kind of left the Chicago land area after working in finance downtown for a few years. And things just kind of skyrocketed from there. 

Kathryn Finney

You know, I think going back to that sort of, you know, moment as a young person going away to college and having that sort of experience, and we're talking about resilience and, and I think a lot of us have that. I remember, uh, when I went to college my first semester, I was coming from Minneapolis to Rutgers, um, university, full scholarship, the whole thing. And, um, was in New Jersey. And I tell people this was at the height of hip hop, right? Right. We remember like 94 shiny suits, biggie Smalls, . And, um, you know, I lost my mind a little bit it because I was 30 minutes from New York. And, um, you know, I was in these streets. I was in the New York streets, I'm not gonna lie. I was in the music videos and like all the different club situations and, um, had a moment where my GPA dropped significantly my first semester because again, um, you know, straight outta Minnesota to New York, that's, you know, um, . 

And, and I remember having discussion with my parents of like, oh, where, you know, you lose your scholarship, you're gonna have to come back home. Mm-Hmm. You're not paying for it. And I was, I mean, I was like on probation for the scholarship, it was like, look, you, you, you are about ready to go back back to Minnesota. And I was like, oh, well damn, I can't do that. Like, I can't go back. Right? Like, Mm-Hmm. . And so I, I understand very much as like a young person, you have this freedom, um, and these experiences and, and this space. And you weren't, you hadn't had that before. Right? True. And not necessarily being trained. My mother went to college, my father didn't, and not understand, like not having the proper tools to be able to navigate that sort of, um, space that you're given. Yeah. And the challenge of that, but then also coming back from it, right? Which is what you did. You had this challenge, but you, you came back from it. Like, so as a young person, what triggered that comeback? 'cause some people will get and just kind of stop at that point, right? They wouldn't go to another university, wouldn't continue on. 

Torian Richardson

For me, it was figure of failure. Um, I, I, I was always afraid that I would not, um, maximize my potential. In fact, that, that's still my fear, which keeps me motivated now. And that was really hard, you know, 'cause there was this big crescendo, then there was this peak. You know, you're ncaa uh, scholarship athlete. You're a first generation college student, and you're also full of, or hor hormones and lack of discipline. We have this duality happening at the same time. And then, you know, um, shout out to my parents who were not together, but, but supportive. They always said, you know, get an education. We didn't get a chance to get an education and it'll take you to, to other places. Now what I didn't hone was the discipline that it actually took. One of the things that I learned about form of pooling is it isn't necessarily the information because I was always, uh, intelligent, always a part of the class and stuff. But the discipline that it takes to actually know how to navigate the system academically as well as with resources, um, I had to develop that 

Kathryn Finney

And it is really interesting to be in this sort of stage where you are living globally. And, um, and so, you know, you lead finance, you become this like, you know, successful black man, right? And you're navigating this world. And how do you do that? Because I think a lot of particularly black men, uh, want to live that sort of life, want, want to be global citizens, but don't necessarily have the language, the path, the pathway to even do it. So how did you even like know that you could go to see her in the only for three weeks and retrace your, particularly as a, as a black man? Like, do you give yourself permission? Did you ask for like, how do you even know that? 

Torian Richardson

I fundamentally believe that we have to start with ourselves first. And so I had checked a lot of the boxes. I went to college. I, I made the comeback. I graduate, I'm working as an analyst. Um, I, I, I stayed with my dad. I was like, okay, financially I'm gonna stay here so I can save up and buy my first home. So I was doing all of the things that I was supposed to do, at least from, from a corporate employee standpoint. Um, and I was very, very, very unfulfilled. And I remember thinking to myself like, this, this can't be it. And I was angry that, that's the right word. I was angry. I thought it should feel different. I thought it should feel better. Um, I had put in all this work. I had done the things and I just didn't have that, um, the satisfaction, the fulfillment, that's the right word, the fulfillment that, that I wanted in my life. 

But it really came down to things that I hadn't dealt with before. It was, you know, anger from a family standpoint. My home was violent, and when my parents were married, um, and there was, you know, a lot of abuse there that was happening. So I hadn't really dealt with those things. So once I started that work and really being comfortable, um, and learning about myself and dealing with that, it began to really open up the aperture for other things and other people. So my parents had instilled this range, if you will, and putting me in different environments. But the work of being able to navigate that, uh, emotionally, spiritually, psychologically, that's what really kind of opened up the aperture one. And then two, I'd always been curious. Uh, I loved history in school. I loved geography. And so I said, Hey, you know, let's go see some of these places, uh, in person. And so I just started the journey and then did so professionally as well. 

Kathryn Finney

I think you really done something, and particularly as African Americans, but I think this is also for others who are part of immigrant communities. Um, one of the hardest things is to forgive your parents and to realize that they were doing the best that they could do with what they had. And particularly for, um, African American parents, um, giving them that grace, whether we feel like it's deserved or not, but, but giving them the grace for us, for us, of understanding that they were doing the best he could with what they had. And it was having a talk with someone about, um, my father. We had a incredible man, incredible man, but also had like a lot of family demons and said, you know, as a black man growing up in the 1960s and seventies, exactly, who would he have talked to? There was no, there was no psychologist in the hood of Milwaukee, Wisconsin in 19, I don't even know if there was a black psychologist anywhere. 

I don't even know if there was a white psychologist really in the , you know, in the city of Milwaukee that could have helped. Um, my father and my parents deal with their trauma. And so being able to put our family's trauma and the context and give them grace, but also not excusing it and also doing the healing work on ourselves is really, I think, the gift that we give ourselves. And it's really challenging, I think also for, um, African American men in particular, because the, the language that you're using, even talking about the healing, is something that is relatively new. It's not something that's necessarily been encouraged until recently. 

Torian Richardson

Very true. Very true. Very true. And, and that's one of the things, you know, even going back to your first question around being in Sierra Leone, uh, starting the journey of trying to understand my ancestral heritage, a lot of that came from really seeking, um, understanding. And in order to have understanding you need exactly what you're speaking to, which is context and, and learning that context, getting more context from them, it really helped me to move into the real stage of this, which is reflection, right? How do you, how do you reflect on yourself, the environments that you came up in and really start to move into to use, you know, some of Brene's words, the empathy of understanding where they were, how they got there, and really they did the best that they possibly could given the stressor of the time. So, uh, that really helped our relationship, but it helped with my healing. Um, and this really helped to kind of propel me to say, Hey, going back to that, that last comment around not wanting to fail and being able to do more is I have more to offer. I have more to give. 

Kathryn Finney

You know, as entrepreneurs, we, we talk about, we talk a lot about the success of business and the structure, and that's all pretty clear. Um, but the most successful entrepreneurs I know in life, not just in business, are those two else who do the healing work internally. And, and, you know, bringing up this idea of resilience. And so, you know, really understanding the cost of success. And one of the things you had just mentioned about generosity, and especially as someone who has a lot, I'm not just talking about money a lot, just a lot of like in spirit and stuff. One of the things I've learned recently is, is how to be generous. Because, um, when you are a person who has a lot, sometimes there's a tendency for people to wanna take a lot too Mm-hmm, . Um, and like how do you create the boundaries necessary to be able to maintain who you are? 

Had a big discussion about self-care, and I'm like a radical self-care person. I will just do a spa. I was just at Canyon Ranch, where then I will do a spa. I know all the spa, we have a whole conversation about the spa. But I said, you know, the reason why I can be generous and even more generous now is that I stopped to refuel my tank. And I have learned to reserve, you know, maybe it's not a lot, but I reserve a good 20% of my tank for myself. And I always make sure that I reserve, that I never get below the 20%. Like when I fly and I'm getting close to 20% and I figure out a way to get back up, right? And so, you know, particularly as a, a black man who's successful, who has families, I'm sure who has needs mm-hmm. , um, most African Americans, we don't have historical wealth. Uh, , like we may be a one or two generations of those who have money. I always tell people we don't have, like, I am the friend and family, right? Like, it's not like, like, you know, I mess up like it's my bank account. My family will, will do whatever they can to help me, but they don't exactly have the same resources. Mm-hmm. , how do you reserve that 20%? Do you reserve your, that 20% for yourself? 

Torian Richardson

You do a better job. So my answer is yes, I do. The second part is I could do a better job of it, um, to give some current context. I'm currently the caregiver for both of my parents that I've been mentioning. That's a maybe even a whole nother podcast on, on that. Um, but, but being, like you said, being really intentional around setting those boundaries, which goes back to the work around reflection and understanding and saying, Hey, you know, fundamentally I have this universal principle is, you know, I can't give what I don't have, right? So I can't give time if I don't have it. I can't give resources or money or love if I don't have those things for myself. So it's almost that, um, you know, put on your oxygen mask first, if you will. Um, because it's true. It's true. It is something that we have to do. And setting those boundaries, um, something that you've mentioned to me and, and I continue to try to work on saying no. Right? How do, yeah. 

Kathryn Finney

I think of all different ways to say no, I'm all yes, but it's a complete sentence. No was a complete sentence. 

Torian Richardson

Yes, yes. Yeah. Yes. No is a complete sentence. And so, and so one of the things that I found like for myself is because I have been successful and I try to be generous and, and there is abundance in my life in many ways. Yeah. Uh, as you overcompensate and I, I have what I call self-diagnosed, if you will, thrivers guilt. Because even being here, Sierra Leone, some of the things I've experienced over the past week, you just kind of reflect on, wow, most people, a lot of people don't get this type of an opportunity. And then you see opportunities that are here reflect back on the family. And so all those things kind of come up for me sometimes. And, um, I have to check myself and say, Hey, I've put in the work, I've done those things. I have been resilient. And um, yeah, this is part of me setting those boundaries so I can make sure that I have that 20, 25, 30% in my tank regardless of what's happening when I return back to the United States. 

Kathryn Finney

The universe is conspiring for your greatness, right? You get everything good that it's coming to you. 

Torian Richardson

Yes. 

Kathryn Finney

You are good. That's one of the hardest things as people who have been marginalized in this world to accept. Um, especially when you, you have family members who are, you know, maybe aren't at the same level as you are, particularly in terms of money in class, right? Which in our community, we get a, we have a lot around money in class. Um, and, and you know, , um, being a public person and a public person who talks about money and investing, you can imagine, um, the folks that come, come to me, I've had family members try to sue me. And, um, I will say to one person, I had to say, I, whatever you care about Kathryn Finney, just make sure, you know, the t's are crossed and the i's are dot, because I will have every bit of your SSI check. I'm just letting you know, so be real, real, like, like, because I know and, and the money that you hustle some pool and, and I say that jokingly, but, um, but creating that boundary, especially when you've been successful because you want your family to be successful. Like, I want, I love when I can share with my family and, and my friends and people I love. Like I, I love to be able to do that. Um, but also creating the boundaries where you don't give, give, give to the point where you literally have nothing left for yourself. Um, and I think that learning those lessons as successful, particularly African Americans is it's, it's really important. Like you, you, you don't serve your family or your community if you have nothing left. 

Torian Richardson (24:26):

Well that's, that's, I would say that's krabs in a barrel. 

Kathryn Finney

Yeah. 

Torian Richardson

Right? I mean, and not to be derogatory with the term, but think about that if we're, if we're not breathing life into each other, and I just don't mean in our words, but in our behaviors and how we speak and, and helping to not only manifest psychologically, but helping to build, um, things that help all of us, um, directly or indirectly. Yeah. I mean, and it, and it happens a lot. And here's the thing, I don't even think it happens as intentionally as we think. 'cause a lot of times it's, it's a survival mindset. It's a survival mode. So, um, it's a hard conversation to have real time when someone is asking, but I'll scale it back a little bit, say, I can help. Here's how I can help. And you have to decide if you want the type of help that I'm going to be able to offer 

Kathryn Finney

Because it's oftentimes very prescriptive. Like, here's the help and I want you to do this. And it's like, okay, but, but here's what I can do right here. Here's what I can do for you. Um, and it's very, very hard because we come from communities that have been scarce. And so the idea is, well, you have it in abundance, you should give it. And I often say to my family, 'cause, you know, being a, a vc and one, I have to explain to 'em, there's like literally five black women who are at my, my place. Like, there's not, there's virtually no black women. Um, so I have to explain that I to them. And then I say, you don't actually want my money because here's the structure in which this is gonna exist. And so, um, I can give you great advice. Maybe I can give you some thoughts, but, but you don't want this money. 

Like, and I'll tell you why, because here's the requirements I'm gonna have of it. And, and also be honest, like ethically, I can't invest in family. Like legally I couldn't do it either. But it's really hard when you, when you have abundance and, um, and to figure out how do you manage that and how do you give, but also not, uh, over get to the point where you don't have enough. And, and one of the things I've learned is, you know, money is rarely the problem. It's a problem. It's really the problem. Yeah. Usually something else. And so using money as a, a tool, I think for our community to really start to learn that, like how can we use wealth as a tool to help solve the, the problem? Right. What strategies have you used cultivate resilience in your life? You, you heard the question, but I 

Torian Richardson

I heard the question. I heard the question. Um, there've been a few. I, I, I think that one of the biggest things, and I've mentioned it before, is, uh, the self-awareness. Um, really understanding where I am, how I'm showing up, um, what some of the things that I'm, you know, weak at or, or areas in which I use some improvement or help with up from others. And then the second one, or maybe even one B would be, uh, the discipline, right? To do the hard things, to do the small things when I don't want to, um, I, I always try to make sure that the things that are, that I'm really staying, uh, loyal to what I'm committed to and not necessarily to, um, what may be going on at the moment or how I may be feeling. And, you know, that's, that's, that's difficult, but it is a tool that I really, uh, try to, to, to implement. 

And then the third part would be, um, surrounding myself with, not necessarily like-minded people. 'cause that's just something that doesn't align with the direction that I move, but like, character, right? I actually like people around me who think differently, who have different opinions come from different backgrounds. Um, but character's really important to me. And so making sure that those that are in my, my, my circle, we are aligned from a value standpoint. And I don't necessarily have to agree with everything that everyone says, but I trust their intention in sharing it with me. It's almost like you want to, um, you wanna be a generative human, right? And so the things that come from me, including my thoughts around people, I'm going to lead with the thought of good intent until someone proves, proves otherwise. 

Kathryn Finney

Thank you, Torian, for such an insightful conversation. And I want to express my gratitude to you for your openness and willingness to share your journey with us. Remember, everyone building a damn thing isn't just about external achievements, but also about the internal growth and resilience we cultivate along the way. Thank you all for tuning in. Until next time, keep building and thriving. 

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And always remember to build the damn thing.

Episode 6: Adapting to Change w/Denise Hamilton

Change is a perpetual force, influencing not only our professional endeavors but also shaping our personal lives. Join host Kathryn Finney and her special guest Denise Hamilton, founder of WatchHer, as they look at the complexities of adapting to change and uncover effective strategies to navigate these shifts seamlessly.

This episode provides valuable insights into cultivating a mindset and acquiring tools that are crucial for navigating the ongoing changes in various aspects of life. Listeners will discover ways to embrace change as an opportunity for growth, manage both personal and professional transitions, foster flexibility, and effectively handle stress and uncertainty during periods of change.

 

Guests:

Denise Hamilton

DeniseHamilton.co

IndivisibleNow.com

Twitter:       OfficialDHam

Instagram: OfficialDHam

Facebook: Denise Hamilton

 

________

 

Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

________

 

Credits: 

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

“When You See Me Now (Instrumental)” by Holizna RAPS

          License: CC1.0 Universal

“Just A Taste” by Beat Mekanik

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

“Take Your Time” by Beat Mekanik

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

 

Full Transcript: 

Kathryn Finney:

Change is a perpetual force that shapes us personally and professionally. On this episode of Build a Damn Thing, we discussed the challenges of change, uncovering strategies to thrive in the ever evolving environment we live in. Join me and my guest, my dear friend, Denise Hamilton, founder of Watcher Work, and author of the upcoming bestseller, indivisible, as we explore the hurdles of adapting to change and discuss ways to navigate these shifts effectively. 

Welcome To this episode of the thing I have a pleasure of talking to. One of my, I call her my chief boo, but one of my, my chief boos. Um, somebody who I just really admire and respect and who is just so insightful. Uh, Denise Hamilton, who is a strategist, a leader, and the author of Indivisible, um, an amazing new book that everyone should rush out and get on Amazon and Noble, I don't know if Barnes Noble can exist anymore, but if there is one in your area, please go and get it there. Or your local independent bookstore as well. And she'll be on the book tour, um, coming up. And so make sure you catch her and when she's in your city. So, hi Denise. It is so good to see you. 

Denise Hamilton:

It is so good to be seen by the Kathryn Finney. This is just amazing, amazing. You also have such joy. I think that's one of the things I really love. You exude joy, your smile. You can just kind of feel it. And so we're gonna start a little bit back and then a little, Denise, you, you're from New York, right? Born in Jamaica. Grew up in New York, and I've lived in la I've lived in South Florida and now live in Houston. So I have made the rounds. I I, I'm an expert in America, . 

Kathryn Finney:

But I, that's really important, especially in your book where you're talking about how do we sort of have these tough discussions with each other, right? Mm-Hmm. about things that are really complicated, like diversity, having that sort of very Americana experience where you've seen all these different parts of America really helped to, to give you that foundation to have that discussion. And so, you know, little Denise travels around. You're in Texas, you're finding yourself working with corporate executives and major corporations, and the topic of diversity really, you know, from a global perspective, global meaning sort of top view. What were some of the challenges you had in sort of having those sort of discussions? Were these really powerful corporate folks? And, you know, diversity is scary. It is 

Denise Hamilton:

Scary. It is scary. I think that we, we often say that we want change, but we don't budget for the cost of change, right? And so, you know, we, it's like how many people say they love peace, but they don't wanna make peace with their enemies. You know, , like, they'll never settle with their enemies. Like the, the truth is, you, we have to break some eggs for this omelet. Like some stuff has to change. And I think that when, um, it's charitable, right? We're gonna just send a couple people to recruit at A-H-B-C-U as well as the Ivy League, like they're just putting something on top of what they're already doing, or they're doing something that they deem as kind of a kindness to do. Um, those things kind of generally get supported, but let's be honest, that's not where the problems are. The problems are in, um, what the general policies are and what kind of behavior you allow. 

We like to put a lot of good behaviors on top of our cultures that are unstable or, or, or shaky when it comes to diversity. But are we really willing to change the underlying culture? Are we willing to deal with, um, toxic superstars, right? Mm-Hmm. , you know, Bill's been here for 20 years, and every woman that works for him, um, quits after six months Bill may be a problem. It doesn't matter if Bill's been here for 20 years. Like, we have to look at what the issues are and what's really going on, and those sacrifices when it's time to address bad behavior, when it's time to change. Um, you know, honor traditions, I remember when I worked in commercial real estate and the prize for getting the, the most deals was going on a, a, a dove hunting trip. And it's like, that's not a prize. 

I once won a prize of a custom made men's shirt. Right? That's not a prize , right? Like, like, so, so when you have to change doing business at the strip club where you have to stop having conversations that you think are funny, and you've been talking like that your whole career, that's when the rubber hits the road where you have to give something up as soon as it moves into sacrifice. Yeah. Interest begins to wane. So in order to foster change, does it have to be self-serving? Like is that, like, what gets the change to happen? Or is there another way? I tend to think that, um, people operate in their, their self interests. And if you create a paradigm of change that only suggests sacrifice, that change is gonna be mighty hard to get up the hill. You have to show how making these changes benefits everyone. 

Right? Um, and, and that's a hard, it's hard to do that because I think people think they got it figured out. They think it's going great, right? Um, and, and when you say, no, it could really go better if you do this. We don't have always the evidence. We, it's, it's hard. And we don't make the case in that way that this experience will be richer, deeper, um, um, more profound, more effective, more impactful. I still see people make decisions every single day that alienate wide swaths of the population. And I'm just like, that's not even good business. That's not, that's you messing with your own money because you're not willing to en engage with and to contemplate that there can be a different way to do something. We often make the mistake of thinking that the way it is is the way it ought to be, right? 

It takes a lot of courage, a lot of creativity, a lot of leadership to say this situation can really be different, different. And I can be a catalyst for that change. Tho those are very special leaders, and I'm seeing them, I'm seeing a lot of people run away from commitments they made after George Floyd's murder. And I'm seeing another group that are rock solid and sticking to it and being committed. And it's, it's amazing to look at the revenues of those two groups. Like one group is really doing well because they understand the value of widening their aperture and creating space to get the best out of every single member of their team. 

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Kathryn Finney:

What's the difference between those two? These what made the leaders, and you might not have an exact answer to this, but the leaders who, who, who are steadfast in their commitment, what do you think is the difference between them? Why are they steadfast and the other ones aren't? 

Denise Hamilton:

I tend to think that there are, it's just like, it's like stock, invent investing. It's like venture. There are leaders and followers, you know, there are people who just follow the herd and followed the trend, weren't 

Kathryn Finney:

Really leaders, they were just followers. They were 

Denise Hamilton:

Ministry. They were just followers. They were following a trend. They were responding to public pressure. They didn't feel it internally. They didn't, um, change their belief system about what was necessary. Right? And, and you know, in a world where CEOs are judged by the last six months, not the last six years, it is very hard to stay with a, a course of action that takes time, right? Yeah. We see it in our, we see it our, in our, um, politics all the time, right? If I have to be fundraising, I'm not legislating. I'm, I'm so busy trying to keep my spot, but I don't really do anything with my spot and our corporate structures today, very often people are judged by a set of criteria that make it hard to do longitudinal progress and, and to really move the ball forward. So if something doesn't work after two months, they abandon it. 

And, and it's weird, but that's what we're seeing a ton of, it's followers and leaders. And it's amazing how successful the people who I see in my course of visits and I talk, I work with a ton of companies that are really sticking with it. It, they, those values kind of extend to other areas of their business. They're creative. They, oh, they're open to ideas from all corners of the company. They're willing to, um, analyze their choices. They're willing to pivot. Um, nothing is too precious in their cultures that it can't be corrected or, or repurposed. So that those kinds of themes lend themselves to creating a more diverse, um, workforce and understanding the gifts that each group and each, um, person, individual can bring to a space. You know, um, I remember when my, um, daughter was young. She was in ballet, and the instructor, they were getting ready for a recital, and she and the instructor sent just a little paper home that told everybody how to get ready for the recital. 

And she said, you know, with a bunch of other directions, she said, put your hair back in a bun for the performance. Yeah. Well, my daughter's hair could do that, but there was another little black girl in the group. Her hair couldn't do that. She had short hair. There's no way it was gonna get into a bun. There's not that much like pomade that you could put right. That much . And the truth of the matter is, she was the best dancer in the group. She was, she was by hands down the best, um, performer in the group. And her mother called me and said she was in tears and she wasn't gonna be in the troop anymore because, you know, they don't want her, like, she could, she's not gonna fit in. What is she gonna do? Like, and, and to me, that was the perfect metaphor for what happened so often. It wasn't that instructor's intention to offend or to hurt this little girl. She was, she copied something she put printed last year, and she did the year before that. And she did the year before that. She was not thinking about that. It was not her intention. It doesn't require intention to create harm. Right? But whenever your policies stop the best dancer from wanting to dance, you gotta change your policies. You gotta figure out a new way to position things. 

Kathryn Finney:

I mean, sometimes changes awareness. I mean, if we talk about George Floyd, what it, he was not the first black man to be murdered or 

Denise Hamilton:

The last right? 

Kathryn Finney:

Mm-Hmm. like we're the last, right? 

But his murder captured the attention and then created awareness, right? And from that awareness is where some folks had changed. So it seems like there's a connection between awareness and change. Um, another thing I think is really interesting, you know, my, my background is as a scientist, and the human body does not like change. U humans in general don't like change. Right. You know, sta we see change as a threat. And so we're in this period of time where there's a lot of change and a lot of things that are happening. And sometimes I feel like there's not a recognition of that. Newman don't like to change. They fundamentally don't wanna change and not, and it has 

Denise Hamilton:

A cost, it has a, it has an expense. 

Kathryn Finney:

Mm-Hmm. , there's a cost to that change, right? Yeah. And so how do you manage people through that understanding that people don't want to change and there is a cost to it. How do you get them to sort of go to that side? Is it awareness? Is it awareness plus other things? 

Denise Hamilton:

I think it's, it's an understanding that it's not, it's a, it's that it's a profoundly, um, active process, which is a, i I may sound counterintuitive, but let me, let me explain. Um, I take you all the way back to ninth grade biology, homeostasis. A cell would let in water and nutrients and would let out waste and toxins to do what? To keep things normal, average, regular, right? Yep. Your body, your whole body's the same way. When you're hot, you sweat. When you're cold, you shiver. Why to keep you average, normal, regular. I think the whole entire world is like that. If you try to do something extraordinary, unusual, abnormal, the there are forces that will mount to push you back into your spot. I have a, a good example of that. I was, um, coaching, um, a, a woman who was in an oil and gas company. 

She was on a executive track, and she wanted to be in the c-suite of a energy company, right? And, um, you can't do that unless you have run some kind of Nash international project because you can't run. Yeah. You can't be a leader of a multinational company if you've never worked out . So she was like really focused in getting this assignment overseas. So she calls me and leaves me a voicemail. I was actually on stage when she called me, but she calls me and leaves me a voicemail that says, oh my gosh, Denise, I got it. I'm gonna cut her. It's amazing. And she was so excited. I called her back one hour later, not 20 minutes, not five hours, an hour later. And I said, Hey. And she said, Hey, what, what happened? What happened to the enthusiasm, the excitement, the whatever? I don't, I don't know if I'm gonna go, you have been working for this for years. 

What do you mean you don't know if you're gonna go? You know what she did? She called her mother, and her mother said, won't you be scared over there? Aren't you gonna be lonely? How are you gonna get married? You know, you're not kidding any younger. Like, and nobody loves you more than your mama. So it wasn't that she doesn't love her, or she doesn't respect her. She anything highly of her. 'cause I think that's something too. We think that that, um, these homeostatic behaviors are always negative. They're not, it could be completely outta love, but you can love me into a box that keeps me stuck in old patterns when I'm ready to fly and I'm ready to soar. Right? And so I think this idea of how you have to actively fight homeostasis. A homeostasis is a battle every single day. I do not think people gear up the way they need to, to, to fight the forces that try to keep things the good old days. 

The, you know, the, how, it's how it's always been to maintain the status quo. I don't think that we count the cost. I don't think that we budget for it the way we need to. So when I work with clients, that's a space we spend a lot of time. Because if you're in love with the status quo, if you are oppressive to people that are trying to do something new or trying to be the first I'll, I'll give, I'll tell you a story, something that happened. I know you speak on a lot of stages like I do. And I was at a conference speaking, I was doing a soundcheck, um, uh, this was last year. I was doing a soundcheck. And you know, when they put together a stage, it's like those rectangular slats that they attach together and they make the size bigger or smaller. 

Well, on this stage, the, there was a space, like a half inch space between each slat. So my heels were falling in as I was walking around, my heels were falling in. And so I, I stopped him. I said, Hey, are you, are y'all planning to put a, a rug over this or some kind of platform? Yeah, because I'm gonna trip. I don't wanna trip. And they all bust out laughing and looked at each other. They had never had that problem before. 'cause they had never had a woman speaker. Yeah. They had never had a woman speaker awareness. Right? We are fighting homeostasis still every day, what we consider to be normal. I have this great t-shirt that I wear. It's called, it has, it just says the word captain on it. Because I want, I want to, uh, de destabilize what you think a captain looks like. What does a boss look? Can a boss, can the boss be five one and soft spoken? 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah, 

Denise Hamilton:

I think so. Right? But do we all think so? So kind of getting leaders to understand how actively they have to push against the status quo, how they can't just coasts. It can't be accidental. You can't be intentionally exclusive for hundreds of years and then be accidentally inclusive. You have to do the work. Um, and, and getting their buy-in. And I think the companies, the leaders that I'm seeing have bought into the fact that they've gotta do the work. 

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Kathryn Finney:

It is the work and the willingness to do the work. And that's hard, right? The work is not easy and the work takes time. And that's something I think is really hard when it comes to change. It's like a lot of people, um, because we are, we're living in this sped up timeline right now, right? Everything is like literally next. I mean, you can get pretty much anything you want in the world within a day, right? Mm-Hmm. . And so this idea of, you know, something to do with the human condition, which is all the isms that we're facing is about human condition, right? And that's not gonna change in 24 hours. You can't Amazon that you can't you can't Google how to fix it. I mean, Google might have some ideas, but, but you, you, you're gonna actually have to do the work. And so awareness being part of it. The other is actually, once you're aware, now, what are you gonna do putting in the effort? 

Denise Hamilton:

And do you have the skillset and do you have the skillset to do it? Because that's the other space you see a lot of trouble where just because you know how to, um, sell sprockets, that doesn't mean you know how to navigate diversity in your organization. And a lot of leaders, everybody turned around and looked at them and said, okay, what you got? And they didn't have a lot to bring to the table. 'cause they don't know themselves, right? And so you have to have a little bit of humility to say, I don't know. How do I get this information? Um, how do I double check where my information sources are coming from? Yeah. Who do I trust to inform me? How can I do that? In a way I'm the leader and I'm supposed to come across as knowledgeable and solid. Can I be humble and in a, in a learning posture in this space? Yeah. And not lose my leadership credibility. All of these things. Were a part of the, the mix as well. 

Kathryn Finney:

It's, it's awareness, it's work, it's humility, right? If you're managing through change, what role does, uh, tools like mindfulness play in terms of particularly those of us who are not necessarily leaders managing through change, but just going through regular change in our life? Right? Mm-Hmm. , um, I was having a discussion about someone. We were talking about the ultimate, the ultimate exit, the ultimate change, which is death, , and, and, um, you know, managing that process, I was explaining how I was just going through my estate planning and how, um, one, being a black woman going through estate planning, that in and of itself was kind of, um, but then going through that process and having to think about my death, um, which is massive change, not just for me, but for everyone who's close to me. And so, and sometimes with that sort of change, particularly that sort of life change comes stress. Lots of stress. And so what tools can people use to sort of manage themselves going through these sort of really stressful periods of change in transition? Mm-Hmm. , 

Denise Hamilton:

That's such a beautiful question. Um, and I'm gonna answer it two different ways. First, I wanna talk a, talk a little bit about the architects of change. Um, those of us who are on the side of, of wanting change and trying to catalyze change. Um, I think we have some work to do. I think that, um, we, we, we've used the word budget a lot in this conversation. And I think we don't always budget for the pain, the loss, the grief associated with change. So we can be harsh, we can be, um, we can be unforgiving insensitive. We can be, we can be tough, right? I remember, um, I was working with a, a group and they had set a goal that the board of directors was gonna be 40% women or people of color by X year. And I met with the leadership team, which at this point was predominantly white male. 

And I, and I asked them, I said, how do you feel about that goal? And, you know, one guy bravely piped up and said, it sucks. And I said, well, tell me more about that. And he said, um, nobody cares that I have to get up. Nobody cares about me. And I remember, like, I've never forgotten that conversation. And we went on to have a beautiful conversation about change and, and, um, sacrifice. And, you know, fairness. Did you think, do you think that a organization that's 75% women should have a all male leadership team? Like, did you have any hesitation of taking this role? Were there other women that should have been considered? Like, you know, we had that conversation, but I wanna really lean in on the fact that we ask people to change and sometimes we disrespect the pain and the cost of that change. 

Yeah. Right. That we could do that better. Right? So on the other side, on the recipient side of, of the person who is, you know, sometimes they see 'em as themselves as a participant in change. Sometimes they see themselves as a victim of change. Like, how can they navigate it better? I think framing is everything. How you position yourself in the story, how you punctuate the story, where you see the start, the stop. Where are the question marks? Where are the commas? Where are the periods? And really put yourself in the context of the whole story, right? And see where do I fit here? And try to find, um, what aligns with your personal values, right? People list a lot of values that it, it, they don't always, uh, doesn't always manifest in execution, right? In some of these situations, 

Kathryn Finney:

Again, going back to the awareness, right? A lot of us are not very self-aware. We're not encouraged to be self-aware. Self-awareness is tough too, right? Yeah. Because you're, you usually have to admit some things about yourself, , that are maybe not some so great. Right? And so, you know, going back to, you know, awareness work and humility as being these sort of core ways in which you sort of manage to change, I think, you know, in order to, to get to that point that we're all trying to get to, and again, very globally, not just in terms of race relations or gender relations, but just all sorts of things. It's really about how do we create more awareness, right? Yeah. In ourselves, like within ourselves and within our community. Hundred percent. Um, and then have these really tough discussions. Mm-Hmm. . Um, it's interesting 'cause when it comes to race in particular, and I've had this discussion with people before, so you, you're asking those with enormous privilege to give up their privilege. Um, the debate isn't whether they should give up their pre, I mean, they shouldn't have, they shouldn't have it in the first place. Right. But you, like you said, you have to acknowledge that they are losing something. They are losing something. Now there may be something they should lose. Right? They, they don't need to have it. 

Yeah. But the truth of that, the truth of it, we get very wrapped up in the truth. And the truth doesn't really matter. It's how people, it doesn't 

Kathryn Finney:

Matter. 

Denise Hamilton:

And if you don't reconcile how people feel, you end up with an insurrection. Right? Exactly. Reconcile. You have to deal with the way people feel about things. 

Kathryn Finney:

Exactly. And so you then have to make that connection, like you said, between um, how does this change benefit you? How does it make your life better? It might not necessarily be a direct one-to-one. An example always give is, um, the big fight around property taxes that happen. Um, it happens in every city. Um, you know, people raise their kids, their kids go to great public schools, and then they don't wanna pay for public schools anymore. Right. And in their neighborhood, they're like, I don't wanna pay for that. But investing in that child, giving that child some place to go may be the thing that stops them from messing up your property. Right? Maybe the thing that stops them from going one direction, this child may be the person who ends up taking care of you. 'cause we have a healthcare shortage, right? Health aid. So now that they're able to go through school, get the training to then become able to help you, but it's something that I just don't see us really doing really well, is making, how does the change benefit you as a person? 

Denise Hamilton:

And it's, and I would've to say, and I would've to also say to that, yeah, that's not, that's like a global problem that we have, right? That is like, that is a, a it's, it's, I would say it is a, a group character flaw of being profoundly self-centered. What's happening with my family, with my kids? What's happening at my house? What? But that is not how we got here. The middle class in the United States of America was built because of the GI bill and because of Mm-Hmm. , fdr, the New Deal. Exactly. We got to The Greatness of America was collective, live collective policy that benefited many, many, many, many 

Kathryn Finney:

Millions of people. 

Denise Hamilton:

And now we've kind of shifted to an extraction model. Yeah. People don't wanna pay their taxes. They're hiding their money in the Caymans. People don't wanna do their fair. People are pulling kids out of the public school, but that, that's not enough. Now we got a gut and sabotage the public school. Yeah. Like, like there's a extraction model of just me. You want, you hate to see the homeless on the street, but you don't wanna pay for, for mental health services. Like, it, it all benefits us. 'cause we all live here together. And how do we communicate that and catalyze what I believe is kind of the new iteration of patriotism, right? Like, what does it mean to live here and to be a part of this experiment? Is this gonna fall apart on our watch? Is our generation gonna be the one that this kinda the decline? Are we gonna be the, the guardians or the holders of the space for the decline of America? Or are we building the next chapter and writing our next section of greatness? I don't know. It's not looking really good because it's so extractive. Nobody wants to feed the golden goose. They just want to eat eggs. And it's like we, we have to, we've gotta figure out a way to see ourselves as collective. 

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Kathryn Finney:

In your book. You know, talk a little bit about your book and like how you kind of make that connection in your book. 

Denise Hamilton:

Yeah. I mean, I think Invisible available on Amazon. Invisible. Lemme see. Yes, yes. Here it is. Yes, please put 

Kathryn Finney:

It up. indivisible available on Amazon. Beautiful 

Denise Hamilton:

Yellow cover all the places, all the things. I mean, I think that, um, we're, we're in a bit of a crisis of hopelessness and helplessness. Um, we are a people that sent somebody to the moon in a tin can with computers that weren't even as sophisticated as the phones that we carry around in our pockets right now. We are people that can do incredibly hard things and we've lost sight of that. We're so overwhelmed that one of the downsides of having so much information is we are carrying around every trauma from every person, from every city country and small hamlet all over the world. And it is immobilizing us and making us forget what we're capable of, the power that we have. So you live in a richest country, you know, you've got a car, you have a house, you have your kids go to school, you whatever, and you think you're helpless. And you look at the rest of the world, you are so far outperforming economically the rest of the world. But you have the nerve to think, tell us what you can't do. What, what, how did we get here? Right? And my personal muse, um, is Harriet Tubman, you know, because here's this woman and you write 

Kathryn Finney:

About her in the beginning of your 

Denise Hamilton:

Book. I do. I do. Yeah. She's the, she's the, she's the og. She could not read, she couldn't write, she didn't have a map. She was alone. She had never left. He had never been further than a mile from the plantation. She had a disability. She had a, um, a seizure condition. She was petite. There was like a billion reasons that she couldn't run. And she ran, she ran by herself and she got herself to freedom alone. No food. No. Like literally figured it out. And if that wasn't a big enough miracle, she turned around and came back and got somebody else. Yeah. What? And she did it three and five people at a time, which is such a testament to me around our patients, right? Yeah. We don't have the patience to do three and five at a time. But that's how you get to 70, right? That's how you do it. You do it a bit at a time. It's not just add water. It's not overnight success. People forget, they talk a lot about the things like the, the Montgomery bus boycott. People don't realize those people walked for a year. It wasn't a weekend, it was a year. Yeah. They walked to work and those were hardworking people on their feet. Very much so walked. You understand what I'm saying? We the 

Kathryn Finney:

South, the southern summer. 

Denise Hamilton:

Okay, we lost our understanding. Do you think you have less resources than Harriet Tubman? You can't possibly think that. So she was able to literally save lives, like by herself, individually, going back and forth and taking people. She was able to do that. Can you do something about the five feet around you? I think you can. I believe in you. You're more, more powerful, more capable than you think you are. Right? So the metaphor that I use is, um, about a stadium. So if we're all in a stadium watching a, an event or whatever, and we all drop a couple pieces of trash at our feet when we leave that stadium is a complete wreck. But what if we do the opposite? What if everybody bends down and picks up the trash that's right around them? Yeah. Stadium looks great. Yeah. What is your five feet? What are the things that you touch? What are the places that you have an impact? Yes, the world is big and there's a lot of stuff going on, and there are a lot of challenges. But what are you individually doing for your five feet? And if Harriet Tubman, who couldn't read, write, had a disability, all these things can accomplish that into those conditions. What can you do with all of the assets that you have? 

Kathryn Finney:

Thank you so much, Denise. You are a treasure. Um, we're all excited to read your book. Indivisible, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, local independent bookstores. Um, also following on Instagram, I think it official official Denise. 

Denise Hamilton:

Official Deam. Official Deam. I have the most boring name in America. Denise Hamilton. Um, no, 

Kathryn Finney:

Kathryn Finney 

Denise Hamilton:

. Oh, well, all right. Yeah, you're right. 

Kathryn Finney:

Can I tell you what a college said 

Denise Hamilton:

To me? We should have been Octavia's or Beyonce's girl. 

Kathryn Finney:

. Right? I was like, can I tell you? A college friend once said to me, and this is a a little sexist, but it's funny, said, you know, when I was looking, you know, we're getting a list of the people who, your neighbors and stuff in college, and I saw Kathryn Fanning. He said, I was expecting some like red hair Irish like woman to like show up . And it was you. I was like, welcome. This is the obvious pre-internet. It was delightful, right? Pre-internet, pre, you know, ig before you could look up people and see who they were. And so I show up from Minnesota, captain Finney from Minnesota, they were not expecting 

Denise Hamilton:

That. They never expected do. And they always got more than they expected, honey. 

Kathryn Finney:

They always got a little bit more. So I'm sure Denise Hamilton from New York showed up and they were like, we weren't expected us. Mm. You know, but good for them. They changed. They got awareness. They had awareness that there had some, some different folks and they were able to change their ideas absolutely. About who could be a Kathryn or who could be a Denise. So they'll be very hundred percent. Okay. 

Denise Hamilton:

And I, and I do wanna say one more, one more really, really important thing that I wanna share with your audience. Um, I think that we need some irrational national optimism. I moved through the world with an almost, um, unsophisticated unexpected level of optimism because I believe the only people that can change the world are the ones who think they can, right? So we cannot afford to operate through a lens of helplessness. So if you're, if you're doing that, if you're listening to this, if you're in this audience and you're doing that, cut it out. Step up to the plate, marshal those gifts, name them and figure out the ways that you can apply them to make this a better place. Because we need you. 

Kathryn Finney:

Change is constant, but armed with the right mindset and tools, you have the power to transform it into a catalyst for positive evolution. As you build the damn thing, may you carry with you the inside. Share today. Until next time, embrace the shifts, adapt with resilience, and continue your journey with newfound strength and wisdom. 

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And always remember to build the damn thing.

Episode 5: Dating as an Entrepreneur w/AJ Johnson

Get ready for a candid and relatable conversation on this episode of "Build The Damn Thing" Season 3!  Host Kathryn Finney opens up about a theme that strikes a chord with many: "Dating as an Entrepreneur." Join us as we explore the unique challenges, triumphs, and insights that come with balancing the entrepreneurial journey and romantic relationships.

In a world where entrepreneurship demands dedication, innovation, and unwavering focus, finding love and maintaining meaningful relationships can be a thrilling yet complex adventure. In this episode, Kathryn is joined by celebrity hair stylist and designer AJ Johnson, who has navigated the intricacies of dating while pursuing business ambitions.

Guests:

AJ Johnson

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Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

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Credits: 

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

“Confusion” by HoliznaCC0

“Guitar Beat” by Kirk Osamayo

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

“Bitchez (Instrumental)” by Yshwa

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: CC BY-SA

“Movement” by HoliznaCC0

 

Full Transcript: 

Kathryn Finney:

In a world where entrepreneurship demands dedication, finding love and maintaining meaningful relationships can be a thrilling, yet very complex adventure. In this episode, I'll be joined by my friend celebrity hairstylist, AJ Johnson, who has navigated the intricacies of dating or pursuing business ambitions, and also has been privy to many a conversations about the challenges of being in these dating streets. Join us as we bring all the tea from the salon to the podcast. 

Why? Welcome to this episode of The Thing I Am Here today. I call him the Mayor of Chicago. He literally knows everyone in Chicago and everyone knows him. And Mr. AJ Johnson. How are you sir? 

AJ Johnson:

Hello, Kathryn. Wonderful. 

Kathryn Finney:

It's so great to be with you. We're gonna be talking about dating and entrepreneurship. Oh, 

AJ Johnson:

Great. Great. 

Kathryn Finney:

It's a topic. That's, 

AJ Johnson:

That's a great topic. Yeah, that's a great topic. You and 

Kathryn Finney:

I did a lot of work 

AJ Johnson:

Together. Yes, yes, exactly. Some of my 

Kathryn Finney:

History. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah, I know a little, but, uh, I am a hairdresser, so I give . You get 

Kathryn Finney:

A lot of hair. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. All of hair 

Kathryn Finney:

Provisions. You get all bit. And so before we dive into that, let's talk a little bit about you. So, you know, you, you were born and 

AJ Johnson:

Raised. I was born and raised in Chicago. I'm from, actually from the west side of Chicago. Oak Park. Right? Oak Park, yeah. Outta Oak Park. Yeah. I moved to Oak Park. I moved to Oak Park, like in high school. Okay. But originally from like the West side, that's where my family's from, and we moved to Oak Park. 

Kathryn Finney:

Um, what does it mean to be from the west side? 

AJ Johnson:

Well, the west side is definitely, you're gonna be well-rounded. You're gonna have definitely street smarts. Yeah, for sure. Um, they, they have a little bit more of a hustle mentality. Yeah. But it's, it's a very, it's a community though. 'cause they're very, yes. They're very family oriented. So, and that's why when you hear about the crimes and most of the stuff, even on the west side, it's not as much crime. Yeah. Because they're, everybody is kind of like, connected. It's not like a six degree separation there. It's more like a two degree separation, or that's your cousin, or that's your aunties or, you know, your baby father's knees or all that. Yeah. So it's not, so that's, they, it's just that they're a little bit more family oriented. They have a lot of hustle mentality, but allegedly they say like the, the west side people are a little more ostentatious. 

You know, sometimes they could put a little too much on little, a little extra stuff. Yeah. A little extra. Yeah. They put a little extra onto it. Right. Little pepper. Right. Yeah. And the little girls could be a little bit more feisty. Okay. Yeah. That's what it is. That's, that's the west side. That, so there's some good qualities that I love being from the west side that I learned as a youngster, you know, and one, you know, being resilient and that hustle mentality and to, and to respect, you know, family and friends, you know, that part. 

Kathryn Finney:

So I, I bring up the, the reason why I always like, like to ask people about the different parts of Chicago is a lot of people don't know Mm-Hmm. that Chicago has so many different sides to it. Exactly. Um, I was talking to someone and they didn't un know that Chicago was the third largest city in the United States. Oh, oh, 

AJ Johnson:

Oh, exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yes. Um, and so there's 3 million people that live inside the city. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. , we wanna include this number the 

AJ Johnson:

Surrounding areas. Right, exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

And so, and each side of Chicago has a very distinct sort of feel to it and vibe very much like New York, you know, if you're from Brooklyn versus the Bronx versus Manhattan. And so it's really important, you know, for me to talk to you about that. Of course. Especially, you know, as you come up. So you, you come up, you're in the west side. Mm-Hmm. you graduated from high school. What was your first sort of career that you were into? 

AJ Johnson:

Okay, so, uh, I'm, and I'm, and I just really have to be totally transparent here. I'm not a typical west side, African American, little black boy. Yeah. I'm like, I was a little bit more creative. Yeah. I was a, I'm, I'm a Pisces, so I'm a dreamer, I imagine. Yeah. And I pretty much knew that I just wouldn't be, you know, like the most of the other guys that I hung around with, my counterpart that was in my same class, whatever like that, like the things that interest them, like Michael Jordan, all that, that was just not my thing, you know? Yeah. So I was always fascinated with, um, fashion and beauty. So that's kind of weird for a black, it's some 

Kathryn Finney:

Nike Chicago. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. So they don't understand. They'd be like, what? Like, I mean, maybe some, maybe non-black people might have little boys might have did what I did and maybe embraced it. But it was like, it was a very different thing at that time. You know, you wearing 

Kathryn Finney:

Gucci 

AJ Johnson:

Or Right, right. Wearing Gucci and interested in designer and knowing, you know, about models and girls on billboards and you know, like, 'cause they're like, who is that? You know? They don't know a singer or know a or maybe a TV personality, but like a exotic model, Iman or somebody from another country. They're like, who is that? You know? And, and you know, they didn't understand that. But I always was a little different, even as like, I was a, even as a child, like when it was on picture day, everybody like, oh, I wanna go get a new Simon new Jordans or give me a new suit. I'm like, well, I'm going to get a shirt made. 

Kathryn Finney:

But you had this inner spirit. Mm-Hmm. , you had this idea of yourself. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And that's really what it 

AJ Johnson:

Was. Yeah. It was all 

Kathryn Finney:

Aspect of yourself. Exactly. That was, was not necessarily something that someone told you. Right. You had it. Exactly. You are a public person, 

AJ Johnson:

Right, right. 

Kathryn Finney:

Mm-Hmm. . And you, you style public people and 

AJ Johnson:

Public people, right? 

Kathryn Finney:

Yes. And so what are some of the things, and you, not only to style public people, but you style a lot of women who are leaders. Yeah. 

AJ Johnson:

And, and ev Yeah. Yeah. Even very successful business women, you know? Yes. You just, so all kind of women, you know? So, you know, people write books, people who produce shows, 

Kathryn Finney:

People think. So what do you hear as like the, what's the biggest com, you know, in your chair? Mm-Hmm. . What is the, some of the things you hear the most? Like, it's sort of gripe from your client. 

AJ Johnson:

Okay. What I hear the most is, and because I do have a large percentage of single women, even they're single now at this age. 'cause I've probably been doing it for 30 years, but they might have been married, they might have been recently divorced as you know that story. Yeah, I know that story. But you know. Exactly. So, um, and some of my, and some of and some of my clients have been, you know, married to like some of the wealthiest men ever. You know, they get, you know, they get alimony, they do what they wanna do. But what I find the most is because they, you know, pretty much like you, you know, they got married right outta college. They married, they some high school sweethearts, some, you know, they're, you know Yeah. The guy that grew up next to them or their parents put them together, whatever. 

But this is like, you know, nice, decent Ivy League smart women. Yeah. And so-called smart men, or you know, they look good on paper if nothing else. Yep. Now not, you know, so, but sometime with dating and marrying powerful men, they have an tendency to have a strong appetite and they can get a lot of other women and do a lot of things. But if you're married to them, you just stay at home. Yeah. At your beautiful house. You raise the kids, you go to the Jack and Jill, you do Right. You play position, you do that. But a lot of the women are not fulfilled. So that would be the question that, for the concern that most of the women, yeah. They're like, even though aesthetically, like they look good, their house look good. Christmas pictures come out, they send around perfect look family, whatever. That's perfect. Family, but still. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. But still there's a void. I mean, the lady can only shop and go buy so many Hermes bags and try wallet ry. Right. Exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

You ever see my closets like yet? So go there. Um, no, I, I hear you. I think mm-Hmm. , you know, as a black woman, there is a certain level of validation you get Mm-Hmm. , um, for being married. Mm-Hmm. can be married 

AJ Johnson:

To, to black. Yes. I agree. I agree. 

Kathryn Finney:

And especially married to a black man who has a career, a job. Mm-Hmm. . 

AJ Johnson:

Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . 

Kathryn Finney:

And, um, and there, there's a validation. It doesn't matter how talented or successful you are. Right. I always, uh, bring up Oprah, right? Mm-Hmm. and how everyone would talk. I mean, Oprah, who is the pinnacle of success, and everyone still to this day, grips about, well, she couldn't get stabbed in the marry her. Mm-Hmm. . 

AJ Johnson:

Like, like why would Oprah wanna 

Kathryn Finney:

Be a step? Is she Oprah? 

AJ Johnson:

Right? She's Oprah. Yeah, exactly. But, 

Kathryn Finney:

But there's a certain, in our community, there's a certain level of validation. Mm-Hmm. that you get as a black woman. Right. When a black man quote unquote chooses you Mm-Hmm. , right? Mm-Hmm. , whether they're treating you like shit 

AJ Johnson:

Or whatever. Exactly. Right. 

Kathryn Finney:

Irrelevant. 

AJ Johnson:

But you were chosen. 

Kathryn Finney:

You were chosen by a black man. And that somehow that gives you credibility and gives you validation was in our community. And so then when you decide that there's more that you want Mm-Hmm. , whatever that may be. Right. Um, even more just to yourself, it is really shocking for people. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. It is. It 

Kathryn Finney:

Is. And and I think for a lot of us, we stay in these situations because of the validation. So when you head to dating Mm-Hmm. , you also get that same validation. See 

AJ Johnson:

You. Exactly. You know? 

Kathryn Finney:

Exactly. Um, 

Commercial

Kathryn Finney:

And it is really weird. Like, uh, you know the number of people I've dated who have been like, I've never dated a woman who makes more than me. And I'm always like, well, how much do you know? I, you don't know like you 

AJ Johnson:

Google, but they know you come on. Never. You gotta be under a rock and not know if you get, they know you have. I mean, and touch of a button though. Assets. 

Kathryn Finney:

Assets, yes. But I'm not like out there being like, Hey, this is how much I bring home. 

AJ Johnson:

But it's not hidden neither. It's not, I mean, they have to have to have common obsess, but then you wouldn't be paid 

Kathryn Finney:

Care the one device too. Like they can maybe get some idea that at least I have income. 

AJ Johnson:

Right. Okay. Right. Exactly. And maybe more than them, which is what I'm saying. Maybe, 

Kathryn Finney:

But maybe not. Okay. I mean, like, if you would've, let me just say I paid off some student loans. Mm-Hmm. if you were a union guy. Mm-Hmm. , you know, some of these Chicago's got lot union, right? Oh, of course. Of course. You're a union guy. I remember I dated someone who's union guy. Um, like he, he first told me he worked at the water department, and I'm thinking, you know, water department means he's like reading leaders and stuff. . Now this one is like one of the head engineers. Mm-Hmm. of the big water plant in Chicago, which is one of the largest public works in the world. Mm-Hmm. . Not just even in the United States, in the world that pumps all this water out of like Michigan and waters, you know, Chicago, Northern Indiana. And so if you look at how much they made Mm-Hmm. , I mean like base salary base, like one 50. Right. Um, and then there's overtime. Mm-Hmm. . And because they're essential employees, they have to work, but they have the unions, and then the unions give them, like their mortgage rates are really low and they don't have any student loans. And they've been doing this for 20 years. Mm-Hmm. . And so, and they have like, own like 20 properties, right. Stuff like 

AJ Johnson:

That. Right, exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

So I'm like, maybe on a yearly income basis, maybe I make more than you, but like in terms of assets, right. Like, I mean, I dated people who are millionaires. Right, exactly. Like who are legit millionaires. 

AJ Johnson:

Exactly. And it's so funny, like, you don't know who I know who the guy you're talking about. I know who the guy is talking about. I know. I'm like, listen to it. I was like, but yeah. Yeah. But so I know, but yeah. But he was fine. Right? Yeah. But I know you got I know. So, so that's what I'm saying. But you are fortunate enough that you know, the guys that you, or they were, they wasn't, they were kind of like on your level or closer to your level or in the category. But then I know some other powerful women like you, and they, the guy does not have any of like, he's the janitor or whatever, or custodian worker or whatever you call, whatever. I don't know. But, but still that they, that's what they're more concerned about, that they don't think that the guy feels like he's belittle. 

Like they don't, he don't feel like he's Yeah. Capable and com, you know, capable of having somebody like you or like her, you know, like that. So that's more of the issue that I hear. And then sometime they don't even want to tell me. I'm like, oh, okay. You know, and that's the question that most people ask. 'cause I hate the question, but people are, and so what do they, what does he do? So they about just like, well he works in the, you know, 'cause they, you know, bill, he Right. Yeah. Go stop. I'm like, oh, so he owns a cleaning company, you know, I'm like, yeah. Right. He owns so Right. And then, you know, so, but I could tell that she feels a little, you know, not confident enough to share that with me. We 

Kathryn Finney:

Judged. And again, I think it's really interesting 'cause when I talk to younger women, especially like counseling them, and one of the things I talked to him about is, you know, counseling through the, the fantasy of marriage. Mm-Hmm. . Um, it's like, you know, marriage is really hard. I was married for 18 years. Mm-Hmm. . And, and it's not, there's a fantasy that I think a lot of us have particularly black women. Mm-Hmm. women in general, but black women about the wedding, you fantasize the wedding. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. Y'all always love the wedding. I know people who just only worry about the wedding. Oh. Then after that they don't have nothing to 

Kathryn Finney:

Do, but not the mayor. 

AJ Johnson:

Right. Right. I'm like, you gonna be with him after he walked down on this aisle. 

Kathryn Finney:

Right. Your pictures are fabulous. Yeah. But now you have a whole lifetime that been looking this person. 

AJ Johnson:

Mm-Hmm. . Right. 

Kathryn Finney:

Um, and, and I talked to them about like, sort of, you know, one not looking at income 'cause this whole thing Mm-Hmm. , um, six figure. 

AJ Johnson:

Right. The income thing. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yes. Like that people talk about. And I'm like, income doesn't matter. It's assets. 

AJ Johnson:

Right. 

Kathryn Finney:

And say, let me touch to you as an investor. Mm-Hmm. , because you're investing, you're investing your, your early years in this person. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So don't look at salary. That means nothing that can go away tomorrow. Right. Exactly. And many times it has. Right, right. Look at their assets. Right. Mm-Hmm. . Right. So what do you own? Mm-Hmm. . For me, it's also, um, when I think of people who I'm wanna date, I think of, you know, do you like what you do? Like are you, are you centering joy? Mm-Hmm. . And I know not all women are like that. Mm-Hmm. . But I really would encourage most of us to get to 

AJ Johnson:

That place. I agree. 

Kathryn Finney:

Especially as an entrepreneur, because this work is so hard. Mm-Hmm. like being an investor, being an entrepreneur, being a public person is very, very difficult. Right. And so I think it's really important that I am, you know, with, um, people and, and someone who is centering joy in their life. Mm-Hmm. , because I, I'm not able to, to bring you, I'm not gonna bring negativity and that, I mean, create joy, but I don't have time or the energy to create joy. Like, for you. Like you need to be creating joy for yourself. Okay. Just like, I don't expect you to create joy for me. Yeah. I create it for myself. 

Commercial

Kathryn Finney:

And so, like, are you centering joy? Like if you are a fry 

AJ Johnson:

Cook? Mm-Hmm. 

Kathryn Finney:

do you enjoy making fries? Are like, do you make the best damn fries? And every time you get up in the morning, you love to go make 

AJ Johnson:

Your fry. Okay. So, but okay. I have to say, okay, so with men, that's just different. Yeah. Sometimes men are different. Yeah. They're different. Like, I'm just so happy. I'm very fortunate, very blessed to have all the jobs that I do. I love everything. And I probably would do it for free. Don't tell nobody that I would do it, all of it free. Because Go ahead. Because I like that. But what I'm saying, some of the guys, that's part of being a man. Like even though if he work in a restaurant ever like that, that, so it might not, it is not like it's his best job. But what he do like is that he's providing and he's remaking money and he has a job and he doing, because there's a lot of brothers that don't have jobs. Oh, yeah. You know, so that's what I'm saying. 

Right. That's what I'm, I know. We don't know, we don't interact as much with those kind of people, but I do know them. You know, I know those kind of people. Yeah. So I know what you're saying. Like, do you love your job and do it make you happy? Most people jobs, they don't love their job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even I know people who went to medical school who can't stand sick people. Yeah. But they were so far in, they couldn't, they were so far in. I'm like, what do you do now? You might as well finish it now you got it. 'cause there's nothing else you can do. I don't 

Kathryn Finney:

Like, 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. I don't even like going to hospital. I like, well, people, I'm like, well, what's too late? I, you are in here now, but you are in it, so you have to go and do that. But what I was saying is that even back to when a guy is, I would say having a mediocre job, whatever it may be, custodial worker, all the, kinda like that. She would sit in there and kind of like, not want to say what he really do. I'm like, but you the happiest you ever been. You look happy, you look good. I'm like, it doesn't matter. And when you were with your rich husband, or your almost fiance who was out here doing everything and sleeping with everybody, and you was miserable and looking for me to come and bring you out and turn up and have a good time. Yeah. You know, that was best. So I 

Kathryn Finney:

Think that's the, the thing that you hit on. I, again, there is certain expectations. I think when you are a successful black woman, there is a fantasy Right. Of the man you wanna be with. Mm-Hmm. and what he should look like. Right. And how things should operate. And it's very difficult. 

AJ Johnson:

Mm-Hmm. , well must say, I gotta say they do. The man do look like they want him to look. They gonna make sure he look right. Even they about all he gonna look 

Kathryn Finney:

, you know? But, but I think there is a pressure, um, and I'll see this as a public person too. Mm-Hmm. , it's a lot of pressure. Like, one of the things like I have anxiety about is that, um, someone's gonna Google me and once they Google me and you see, you know, all the stuff about me, literally, it's like a change in how they like interact with me. So before Google, I'm just, Kathryn the woman, and we're having fun and we're going out. And then they Google me and it's like, oh shit. Like, you know, it's like, oh, oh, one person said, I did not know you were who you are. Mm-Hmm. . I said, but I'm no different like the Google, the, there's a Google Kathryn, and then there's like the Kathryn in person. That's a one dimension of me. A many, many different dimensions, right? Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . And so, so that one dimension. Yeah. All that stuff's true. All of that's me. Yes. But then there's also, 

AJ Johnson:

Except for the Mary part, 'cause if you Google say you there Right. Does you, are that right? So you just get that. That's clear 

Kathryn Finney:

That out. Shout out to my exhusband. I Right. You know, we do, we are successful coping. Yes. But I think, you know, being this public person, um, and dating Mm-Hmm. and finding someone who is quote unquote equally yoked. Mm-Hmm. is very, very, very hard. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. It's very hard. That's, I, that's what, that's what, that's the most common thing that Yeah. All that. Especially, you know, and some of the women I am as successful and powerful as you. And they feel, you know, they, you know, it could be, well she could be the, the makeup artist and Nordstrom's at the counter, you know, and she has the same, you know, issue. I'm like, so it, it varies. But, but what I think it, I, what I'd learned in my older age, you know, as I got go back in my senior year. Yeah. In my senior year, in my forties, in my right, right thirties. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Thirties. So what I learned is that if somebody makes you feel good, like, I mean, and you're, and know, and you, you like spending time with them. Yeah. Accompanying spending it in his, in his presence. And y'all doing whatever. Even if you going to, you know, to dinner, if like, I mean, I definitely think the guy should definitely pay. I'm like, I'm shory. What about 

Kathryn Finney:

Cheesecake Factory? 

AJ Johnson:

Well, see, look, um, well that girl who was talking about going to Keys said, well, she had on, she could have went the cheesecake. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She could have stayed a Cheesecake Factory. I'm like them please. So, but yeah. So, but if that's what the guy could do, I mean, you don't want to belittle him. And so he won't feel like, like he not doing, 'cause they already think that in the back of Oma anyway, that I'm not worthy of this kind woman. 

Kathryn Finney:

So here's the problem I have with Cheesecake Factory situation. And there's, and there's two ways to look at it. One, for me, it's not about the Cheesecake Factory per se. 'cause the Cheesecake Factory is not hidden like it used to. Mm-Hmm. . So the food ain't hidden. 

AJ Johnson:

No. It's got, yeah. It's not, it's not to 

Kathryn Finney:

Me, but for me it's an indication of laziness. Mm-Hmm. . Because the Cheesecake Factory is not exactly inexpensive. Mm-Hmm. . So there's other really small, nice little places that you can go eat. Right? Mm-Hmm. that are intimate, that cost less than she Hay factory. Agreed. But took some thought. Right. Agreed. Like that. I thought about we could go to a great taco stand. Mm-Hmm. . Agreed. 

AJ Johnson:

Agreed. 

Kathryn Finney:

Like we can go for a walk and degree tacos name. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . So to me, going to the cheese seek factory is laziness. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And then two, you expect women, I find this with men these days because of social media. You expect women to look a certain way. You expect her to show up a certain way. Mm-Hmm. , it costs a lot of money to get your hair done. Mm-Hmm. hair done, your nails done. Mm-Hmm. to get, waxed to get makeup. All that stuff. Mm-Hmm. . So you, let's say on the conservative end that a woman just spent $300, $400 getting ready for this date. Mm-Hmm. . And you gonna take her to the cheapest, like, simplest place that you can find. Mm-Hmm. . And, and, and that, so for me, that's what it reads. Like I would much rather you be like, we are going to a tackle stand and we're gonna walk on a lake. Mm-Hmm. gonna take a walk on lake. Oh, that sounds great. Mm-Hmm. . I know the best tackle stand in Chicago. I'm gonna take you to it. Or we're gonna get a real Chicago hotdog. Mm-Hmm. . I know you're relatively new to Chicago. Mm-Hmm. . We get a real Chicago hotdog. Mm-Hmm. . Like, you put some thought into it. Mm-Hmm. . And that's the problem I have with the Cheesecake 

AJ Johnson:

Factory. And for me speaking for the brothers, the guy, it's like, so not that I would think if he take, I mean if he, because like you say, there is some inexpensive, nice queen little restaurant that's probably called just as equivalent to Cheesecake Factory. Yeah. But it, what the moral of the whole story is, the guy that you're dating, he probably don't even know about small boutique, cute little restaurants or anything like that. So that's what, so really the real moral story is that's not the dude you should be 

Kathryn Finney:

Dating. 

AJ Johnson:

Right. That's what I'm saying. That's right. And he should know if you getting yourself ready and all that, if you guys communicate and talking and you say, okay, well I'm gonna be ready this 'cause I'm getting my hair done. That mean he know you get everything done 

Kathryn Finney:

Google. Everybody got Google. 

AJ Johnson:

But dude something guys. So ain't nobody Googling doing anything like that. And normally if, first of all what he should say, I'm taking you out. So you know, you gotta tell you something like, oh, dress up or be like, wear sneakers, don't wear heels. 'cause we go. 'cause if you're gonna go and eat hot dog to walk up and down the navy, p and all that, it's called communication. So it doesn't really matter about you getting dressed up and you overdid yourself to go to Cheesecake Factory. 

Kathryn Finney:

Calling all builders, founders, entrepreneurs, and visionaries. I wrote Build the Damn Thing, how to Start a successful Business. If you're not a rich white guy specifically for you and it's a Wall Street Journal bestseller, you can leverage my years of expertise, successful exits and lessons learned by ordering your copy today. This book will help you shortcut the struggle and get to the win. The book is available on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, audible and wherever books are sold, 

The successful attractive woman, particularly black woman Mm-Hmm. , you know, in, in her forties Mm-Hmm.  

AJ Johnson:

Got her back plus 40 and up or whatever, 40 and up. Right. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

What are we to do? Okay. Are we supposed to sit at home and 

AJ Johnson:

Watch? No. So this is, 

Kathryn Finney:

Is Golden Bachelor, whatever. 

AJ Johnson:

Oh no. The old man bachelor. Now you only need to do that. No, no. But so what you need to do is, first of all, this is what I recommend to women if they're, you know, newly divorced or been single since, because I know some of 'em never been married in their life. No. And they, at, at that age. But they were, they're very successful at work. Like, you look at them on their resume, at their job or LinkedIn. Right. You be like, oh damn, do you own the company? They is good. Link it. But that's what they did and that's what women did. And they've been doing that since I was a teenager. Even the girls that I wasn't graduating went to college with high school with. They are way more successful than me and most of the other men. But they own it and they're doing it and that's what they're doing. 

Yeah. For what they're doing. But there's still a void missing in their romantic life. Like that's, and you know, and they just, they be like, look, I'll get a i'll, they'll get a re date. They'll be like, okay, I need, I got a friend just dress up with tuxedo. I'm gonna, my caja Christmas party, you coming with me, blah, blah, blah. He do all that, blah blah. And then she'd be like, okay, I'm finished now you gone. You can even take the the, I bought you the Tom Ford Tucks. You can have it, you can go. Right. So again, but that's, but they, but it's when you get, and you've been doing that for like 20 years plus. 'cause you've been working like that, you get complacent and be like, I'm good by myself. I don't know how graphic I can get, but they got they little thing and they look dead drawer. 

Yeah. They be like, I get this. I'm do this. I'm fine. Good. I'm like, I know girls, women that would be like, I, oh he, I'm gonna tell him to come on over. He can come over to my place. They go over there, they had they little relationships and do whatever. And then she'd be like, okay, you can go right now. Yeah. So I'm like, you tell 'em to me, you know, you use them. You know, so that's what I'm saying. So that's what I think is like, that's the new way of doing it right now. And now with these dating apps, with, you know, I'm not for the apps at all. Not me. 

Kathryn Finney:

I actually think if you're a public person Yeah. I, I, I think that 

AJ Johnson:

That, oh, that's why I'm not getting on there. And I'm maybe not at that public, but I am kind of public. But I don't care if I wasn't even public. I just don't wanna get on there. 'cause I just think it's all, well, I just think it's falsified information. And especially the dudes, the dudes that I feel like our guy, like my friends, they got dating apps up there and they look better in person. I'm like, why you got up there? Yeah. But they get hits though. But you know what they do? They get hits and they just go pretty much and hit it. And then, oh, I'm like, so you didn't like the lady? They what? The lady like, oh no, we, and then some of them build a relationship where it's just like, oh, I'm gonna text you you free Thursday. Every Thursday we come and we do this and let's go. And you go. Yeah. So then they go back to they doing their thing. You know, that's how it works. 

Kathryn Finney:

You know, I think for me, like time is like really pressure. I don't have a lot of time. Mm-Hmm. . Right. And so if I'm giving time to something and to someone like, you're important to me. And so how do you make time to even date? 

AJ Johnson:

Okay. So this is my thing with, um, dating like a business owner, entrepreneurs or very successful people like yourself. And I, uh, if you during that, like, first of all, you have to have somebody that's very, very understanding. They're very, very understanding. Like they, they might not work as much as you 'cause their job is probably doesn't require that much of demand. But you have, and when you doing work in, in, you know, 10 and 12 hours and doing all that, who wanna be like laid up and calling it up and trying to be with you. Like, like look, I want to eat my food and I'm going to bed. Yeah. So that means the person that you're dating and the poor woman who's, you know, might have prepared the food or did anything, she is like, you don't get no attention 'cause you knocked out. 

That's what, even if you wanted to keep a, a man or vice, or man, whoever preferable as you know, the Uber eats Oh. However, however you order the food in. So that's what, so it's very hard to be dating when you're an entrepreneur and you running a successful business. And that's why guys can't even really focus. And I'm speaking for men, you can speak for the women, but for men they can't even really focus on, you know, let me go and winding down her. And that's why they, the woman could feel like neglected. Like I be like, he, he ain't send no flo, he could have brought, so he came on a date like, come on girl, let's go, let's go eat. As opposed to, you know, walking up to the door, like come out open, be like, I'm here, mom come out. Or I'm gonna sit an Uber for you, you me be at the restaurant. Yeah. Like that. But what they're doing is they're pulling in and sharing themselves with the guy that they're trying to please her. Yeah. And so it's some, a lot of work that a lot of get successful men gotta deal with. And then some of 'em be like, we just not going out. You could fool with dad. The girl had to pool in the microwave waiting for him to come. Huh. 'cause he got there at like 10 o'clock. 

Kathryn Finney:

But I do think, and I'll say this, you know, as an entrepreneur in dating, because that what I see happens with my girlfriends who are single and who are really successful. There's a tendency to kind of like pu push it aside because they've been pushing it aside for a long time. You have to be really intentional. Mm-Hmm. . Exactly. Like, you know, um, one, I mean I got on apps initially because I was new to the dating world. Mm-Hmm. . Um, 'cause I'd been married. I was out of the market for 20 years. Mm-Hmm. , I say to people when I was, was last single, like apple, bottom jeans were in. You know what I'm saying? Job rule was like it. Like it was, it was, it was, I mean, you know, this was like the first time Nelly and Ashanti was together. Right. Like, that's how long ago it was. Right. And so one of the first things I did was I got on the apps and then for me it was more about exploration, experimentation and blurry about who I am now. Mm-Hmm. , you know, Katherine in her forties day now Katherine in her twenties dating. Right, right, right. 

AJ Johnson:

So that was, which is a major difference. Major Differe major difference. Difference. Major difference. And 

Kathryn Finney:

Through the process of online dating, learned a lot about myself and like what I was looking for. But I had to make time. I literally, it was like a second job. I had to put as much effort into it as I was putting into anything else. Right. Um, to, to get to the critical mass of like knowledge of like who I am and like where I wanna exist. And then, then I say to people, once you do that, especially if you're new to the dating market, you know, dating rather learn who you are. And then after that I was like, okay, now I know really what I want and who I'm looking for. And I have a very, very clear idea. Mm-Hmm. , I'm not even dating. Mm-Hmm. . I'll do, uh, every once in a while I will do a lunch with someone. Mm-Hmm. 

. Um, but I'm not, I don't have, I can't give you that effort or time anymore. Mm-Hmm. like before it was, I wasn't say I was using people 'cause I think it was mutually beneficial. It was exploration. Now it's like I know what I want. I'm looking for something very intentional. Mm-Hmm. . So I can't give time to anything that is not a possibility. Mm-Hmm. . Um, 'cause that time is used for myself and for my son and for the other things I have to do. Um, and then the other thing that I've done after the expiration, you, you spend time, you learn, you kind of learn who you are and you come out of it is to now I I almost only wanna meet people in person. Mm-Hmm. and or if I'm introduced by a trusted 

AJ Johnson:

Friend. Right. A friend. Exactly. I think 

Kathryn Finney:

Yes. Like I have no desire to do dating apps. I think it is a, um, I just think it is like really weird. And I hate that the only way you like somebody is by the way they look. Mm-Hmm. . 

AJ Johnson:

And it's, and most of the time on the daily app, that's not how they look. Especially the guys. The God pitches will be up there. Yeah. From 10 years ago. For real. 

Kathryn Finney:

It's so weird to me. The number of menus. Like you look exactly like you're pitches. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. I'm like, I'm a public person. Mm-Hmm. as somebody, I'll tell you this story, um, before we wrap up. So I was on Bumbo for a while and going to Atlanta and this guy like found me and we had Nash, but I was just kind of like whatever and didn't like really pursue it. So then he googles me, he's like, I just want to Google, you know, and just see if I could find you Google, Kathryn Chicago. And he was like, oh my God, you're like number one for Kathryn in Chicago. But he proceeded to write like a thousand word essay about me, basically about how 

AJ Johnson:

It was flattering. 

Kathryn Finney:

It was, it was also a little weird because it was through LinkedIn. Um, and like that's what we're doing now. We're de and people through LinkedIn. But anyway. Oh no, 

AJ Johnson:

I heard people do, I heard people meet up on LinkedIn. I didn't know anything about that. That was No, but I just heard that recently. I said Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

I was like, oh 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah, I heard that LinkedIn 

Kathryn Finney:

Not just for jobs. 

Commercial 

Kathryn Finney:

And it was so interesting, you know, that sort of like process. And I was like, ugh. You know, for me, I don't have a lot of extra time, so I need this person to be kind of vetted and validated. Mm-Hmm. . And the way they're they are is through friends. Right. Right. If you are like, um, I've met people through you. Right, of course. Exactly like connecting me. Right. And I'm like, at the very least I know this person's gonna be a friend and at the very least I know they're not gonna be cuckoo. Mm-Hmm. because 

AJ Johnson:

They Right. Exactly. 'cause the recommendation. I'm not gonna bring a cuckoo around. Right. You're gonna 

Kathryn Finney:

Be cuckoo around. You're gonna pull their chain. Right. 

AJ Johnson:

Right, right, 

Kathryn Finney:

Right. If the chains gonna get, the chain is gonna be 

AJ Johnson:

Pulled. 

Kathryn Finney:

Right. And so I can feel safe. And I think that's really important. I say to women, you know, get back to the space of like going out and introducing yourself to people. I find now that men will not approach you or face Yeah. So as women, we're gonna actually have to do some, and 

AJ Johnson:

I have to say the reason why, and this is, and I know a fact I've, I've actually read it. I've seen some people do some studies, but I could tell you what men, men do not approach because we don't, we don't like rejection. Like they don't, we don't want to be reject. So if you like somebody that's kind of like, that's why the ones who really get some the men Yeah. Is kind of like the mediocre girl. 'cause he not gonna go to the one that, you know, that he the fly. You know that the fly girl. Yeah. Because he's like, oh nah, nah, she gonna be too much. It's outta my league. I'm not gonna, so they're not gonna come to her. And I know most all my girls are those kind of girls, you know? Yeah. So they was like, it's very few men that come up and talk to me. And the ones who would be somebody who wouldn't even think he had enough nerve to do it, you know? Yeah. And they say, I just, I'm gonna go out with him 'cause he had enough nerve to talk to me. You know, you know. So it's a little bitty. He got him, you know, he got there, 

Kathryn Finney:

He called a conversation and you're a nice guy. You 

AJ Johnson:

Right. That's what I'm saying. Right. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

Like I see the people, I will go, I will go on a coffee date with almost anyone who's nice and respectful. Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . I'm not gonna say they would do dinner, but we could do a little coffee and have a conversation. Mm-Hmm. at the very least I will meet a really interesting person. Right. Yeah. And we can have a great conversation. Yeah. Um, and I think there are women like me, I know there's not a lot Mm-Hmm. . Um, and so in closing, as we wrap up this discussion about 

AJ Johnson:

Oh, it's not we're having so much fun, we gotta go. I know. 

Kathryn Finney:

I know. 

AJ Johnson:

You have to do 

Kathryn Finney:

The same because like, I need my other job. 

AJ Johnson:

No, yeah. The other Right. Your other job. Right. Which being a mother. Yeah, exactly. Um, 

Kathryn Finney:

And but, but as we wrap up, like what is sort of one thing you think high powered women can do? 

AJ Johnson:

Well, one thing that I definitely think they could do is definitely instill in themselves self love. Yes. Like they, if I just think if they're just feeling really good about themselves, if that means, you know, getting your hair done, doing your face, working out, going yoga, doing all the Pilate stuff, whatever you all be doing or whatever it is, Pilate. Exactly. So that's what it, first of all, I think self love is it? Yes. Because you're not gonna be able to share or receive love from nobody else if you don't feel it about yourself 

Kathryn Finney:

And you're not gonna get the right love. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. And so I just think that is one thing that, that's my, I'm gonna start with that. Definitely with self love. You know, don't be so concerned with the baggage and what your other girlfriend say. Let nobody choose. Don't if you like this person Yeah. Or you think you want to go for this kind of person. Yeah. Don't let your mother, your sister or anybody else say Yeah. Just you just own up and deal with this person. Whatever it is. He might not look good to them. Um, I also think you should probably just say what you want. Like if you don't, 'cause most guys, I hate to say it, you gotta tell us sometimes got dudes don't really know, you know? Yeah. Some of 'em I agree. Like, like if and all my guys, I tell 'em, I'm like even and I tell 'em, I'm like, look, if this what you trying to get. And then if they take my note and do what I say, the girl will be like, oh, he is the best man ever. So if 

Kathryn Finney:

You 

AJ Johnson:

Just have self love for yourself. Yeah. You know, don't listen to anybody else and follow your heart, but still think with your brain now. 'cause you don't wanna be stupid. Yeah. You don't want to be naive. Yeah. You don't wanna get taken advantage of. And I'm not, and I have to be honest, some dudes will take advantage, you know, and girls take advantage. I know women take 

Kathryn Finney:

Advantage. Yeah. I say to my friends like, focus on how you feel. How does your nervous system feel 

AJ Johnson:

Around? Right. Exactly. Exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

A nerd. Mm-Hmm. you feel common center. You know, I'll leave with this. Um, oh God, I think her, her name is Judge Toller, like Right. She was on tv. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. With a short hair. No un sweet lady. 

Kathryn Finney:

Her family. Yeah. Sweet lady. Her 

AJ Johnson:

Very sweet lady. Her husband beautified. Her husband been, yeah. She had another tragedy too with her son and his wife. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the things she talks about, there is a clip of her and I encourage anyone to go see it online and she's talking about her husband. Mm-Hmm. . And she says, I married a six foot tall bottle of Val. 

AJ Johnson:

Yeah. He was wonderful. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. He was wonderful. Like he just calmed me. Mm-Hmm. , he was centered. Mm-Hmm. when I was around him and with him, I never, my, I was never activated. Mm-Hmm. . You know, when your nervous system is activated, that's usually telling you danger. Mm-Hmm. . Right. Whatever it may be. And so find yourself someone who comes your nervous system. Exactly. Who is your value. Exactly. Right. Exactly. That you're around. And you could be commented, and this is particularly for women who are leaders. Mm-Hmm. and who are always, we're always activated 'cause we're out in the world. Right. If you're a black woman leader, there's very few people protecting you. You're not really protected. So you're always on defensive, you're always activated and the last, but 

AJ Johnson:

You can't be that but your man, you can't, that's ridiculous. That even makes sense to me. I don't understand it. It's stressful. Yeah. It doesn't making sense. Yeah. That makes 

Kathryn Finney:

Sense. So find you somebody who's your value. Right. 

AJ Johnson:

Exactly. That would be my thing. Well that that yeah. That only to enhance you. That motivates you. That's in your fan. That's your fan. Back up. Exactly. It's team you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

And if they look like a troll, let them be your troll. Well 

AJ Johnson:

Right. Wasn't right. It worked for you. What, that's what I'm saying. It worked for you and look at you and you guys look good together and he worship with the ground. You walk guard together, together. 

Kathryn Finney:

He's your troll. Right. Right. Let, like, you know what I'm saying? Mm-Hmm. like, don't let the e ig and tell you what it's supposed to look like. He's your words. Yeah. And he's, and he's brings you the calm and synchronous to your life. Right. And, and you know, it would cause it a soft life. It's not the soft life, it's just that this person is not activating you. Right. Mm-Hmm. . Right. 

AJ Johnson:

And so, which I don't understand, I would never be nobody that doesn't bring any value. Right. Like, if you don't bring the vest, if I'm not lighting up and getting chills when I see you and can't wait till I get home from work or whatever Right. Like to see you up, then I'm not gonna be wasting that many days in my life. Right. Would you? I'm like, and I'm not. And I'll just have to say, I mean, nobody wants to hurt or break anybody's, you know, break anybody up or whatever like that. But if you consistently dread it, like, oh, I don't even want a turnkey and it push the remote control to get here. 'cause I'm about to say Yeah. It's exactly funny. People, entrepreneurs, especi, you're out here. And, and, and another thing that I have to say about being an entrepreneur, it's always really good, is that even though your partner, your wife or whatever should definitely have some concern. 'cause it's your, which is really part of their business too. Yeah. You know, so if you coming home and you're successful, he be like, so how was the day? Nothing. Like if he want to dunk and tell her like, you won't believe what happened. You should be a listener here. You should get your advice. Whatever like that, that's, listen, you should be, that's what I'm saying. It should be vice versa, you know? But, 

Kathryn Finney:

And, and we'll, we'll it is something you hit on. We'll leave and done this. Keep people out your business. 

AJ Johnson:

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I'm a advocate, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. I mean that, and that's like, I mean a lot of people right. You don't need to put, you don't need to put on Instagram. Mm-Hmm. . It's 

AJ Johnson:

Okay. Oh, I don't play that. No, no. And what's the worst is when they go into a argument with their spouse or husband. Yeah. And then they go, uh, Instagram on social media with some corporate, like, be strong women don't take no BS asshole. Now everybody know you talking about your husband. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. So that's Donna. 

AJ Johnson:

It's Donna, Dom, aj. I love you. Yeah, I love you too. This is so much fun. We need any more time Next time. I want like hours. Like I want to 

Kathryn Finney:

This episode, kept it real about building a relationship while also being an entrepreneur. Thank you to my amazing friend AJ and to all our listeners. Remember that you, you're a human being. And human beings not only need to build successful businesses, but also build successful relationships. And it's all about navigating this journey with an open mind and an open heart. Make sure you keep yourself open the possibilities both in love as well as in entrepreneurship. And until next time, keep building the damn thing. 

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And always remember to build the damn thing.

 

Get ready for an intimate and empowering episode on "Build The Damn Thing" Season 3 as host Kathryn Finney explores the unique challenges, triumphs, and the delicate balance faced by mothers who are also entrepreneurs.

Drawing from her own experiences and those of her guest Fashion Designer Laurence Basse, Kathryn delves into the raw, unfiltered realities of juggling the demands of being a mother while navigating running a business.

Guests:

Laurence Basse

________

Stay Connected!

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

________

Credits:

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

“City Line” by Beat Mekanik

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

“You See Me Now (Instrumental)” by HoliznaCC0

 

Full Transcript:

Kathryn Finney:

Welcome back to Build the Damn Thing. I'm Catherine Finney, author, investor, and I'd like to thank a pretty fashionable mom. Balancing the beautiful chaos of motherhood with the demands of entrepreneurship is something many aspired to achieve. I know I do. In this episode, I'm joined by fashion designer, Lauren's boss, who has navigated this intricate and sometimes difficult journey. Laurenz was a finalist in the All Star on one of my favorite TV shows, the Emmy Award-Winning Project Runway, and she's showing her first full designer collection at New York Fashion Week. 

Kathryn Finney:

Honored, honored to be here today with Lauren Spa, who many may recognize with season 15 and the all star season of Project Runway. And he was an amazing artist and fashion designer, and I'm such a big fan. You're like a leather sorcerer. And we can talk a bit about that. And so I just wanted to get started just on, you know, a little bit about your background. Um, 

Laurence Basse:

Okay. So, um, my, my parents are from, are both from West Africa, Guinea, be South Senegal. So they moved to France and I'm one of 11 kids. So we were born in Normandy, France. So I grew up there and, uh, with all my siblings, 13 of us in a four bedroom, not a house, an apartment, but we didn't  

Kathryn Finney:

What was normally like, 'cause normally is not the same environment as like a Paris, right. 

Laurence Basse:

Where no. 

Kathryn Finney:

Are in fashion so readily accessible. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. Well, first of all, like, I mean, it, it changed now, but during my time it wasn't a lot of diversity as far as we were like the only black family in of the block. So it was, it was a little tough, you know? But, um, we had good times 

Kathryn Finney:

And so That's so interesting. So how did you get from Normand to, to fashion? 

Laurence Basse:

Well, um, first, I mean, um, I'm, I'm, I am a fashion designer, but I was always an artist, so I used to draw all the time with my brother. I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. Um, so it was just like for fun. And, um, when I was in high school, I lo, I don't know, I just like nice things and my parents couldn't afford it or they just say no all the time. Yeah. So I was like, okay, we gotta figure out a way to, um, to make our own money. So me and my brother, we were setting up the tone of what the fashion would be in, in our high school. So we were coming up with like all types of crazy fashions, drawing on our pants, selling jeans. And that's how we started at 16. I was like, I'm gonna decide. 

Laurence Basse:

I was like, I'm gonna enroll, but I couldn't go to like a private school because it was too expensive. And they only have like, very, very few, uh, public schools. So I tried out the first time. I think I was like 15, 15 and a half. I didn't get in. It was an art school. They had like graphic designers and all types of other different, uh, things. But I wanted to do fashion. Yeah. And, uh, so I didn't get accepted the first year, so I stayed in school and I was doing some other stuff that I didn't like. I tried again the year after that. And, um, I received a letter telling me that I was accepted, but that's when the chaos started. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. Because I was pregnant too and I was like, Pam messed up my life. 

Kathryn Finney:

We all have these like, sort of moments in our life, right? We have to make, make these decisions for you. You know, you're pregnant, gotta your dream school. As you think back to that time, the decision to continue on, what were some of the things that you kind of thought about as you were making that decision? 

Laurence Basse:

I didn't really make a decision because, uh, I was a minor life, just , you know, life just happened, you know, like I was, it was, it was a, nobody seen me pregnant, it was hidden. My father didn't find out until I already dropped the baby. My mom officially find out two weeks before I gave birth in October. Yeah. But school starts around like mid-September. You have to go through, um, a medical visit. So when I went, they were like, oh, hmm, I hear two parts. Are you pregnant? I said, yeah, how old are you? 16? Do your parents know? I said, no. And they said, we can't let you go 'cause you're a minor, so we have to call your parents. So it was like the toughest time of my life. Like, it was, it was just crazy. I, I, I was imagining I just couldn't see past the year of 1991. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. Because I was like, they're gonna throw me out. I'm gonna be, I just couldn't even, I was in denial. So even when I had the baby, it took me like a few months to, I knew I had a baby physically, but emotionally I was, I was messed up . I was, I was messed up. But, um, they didn't kick me out. And I was in fashion school. I only missed like two, uh, two weeks. Um, yeah. And I, I didn't gain any weight. They thought it was my mom's child first, but now it was my, so, uh, and then my dad, uh, when he find out, of course, you know, he went crazy and yeah, he disowned me. . We never spoke, uh, until he passed away. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, it was, it was tough. It was, it was, um, it was, it was a crazy time. But fashion saved me. 

Kathryn Finney:

A lot of great artists have experienced challenges. Yeah. Right. Yeah. From that comes great art. 

Laurence Basse:

Right? Yeah. I, I, I actually believe that. That's why I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't do it again, but I wouldn't change anything. Exactly. . Yeah. , 

Kathryn Finney:

Ask me. Um, in one of our episodes we were talking about, um, you know, I went through a, a really interesting period with the organization. I have found it. And, but that's like, would I, um, would I do it again? And I think well know. I believe everything happens for a reason. However, if I was back then and I could change it, I, I don't know if I would make the same decision. But no, I do believe that the decision is what it is.

And so you're in this, you're a young artist. How did you know you were artist? Like when did you know I'm an artist? 

Laurence Basse:

Well, I was, I was a tomboy. I was a rebel. I wasn't conforming to anything. So I used to fight with my mom because I wanted to hang out with the boys and wear pants, not dresses. Uh, in school, if they tell me I can't do something, I'm a I'm, I'm, I just like to challenge myself. So I'm the only one that this. But I, I don't know where it came from, but I was always like this. Um, I just hate when people used to tell me like what my limitations are. Yeah. So, and I knew early on too that I wasn't gonna stay in Normandy. So, um, I think I did two years of fashion school and then I had to go to Paris and uh, so I went to Paris. I did it for like two years over there. And I was supposed to do two more years, but I was like, I wanna go to New York. 

Kathryn Finney:

living in Paris. Were you going, what were you doing in Paris? Were you like hanging out, going to 

Laurence Basse:

School? No, I was going to school. I was in Paris. I was going to school and I started modeling in Paris. 'cause I was, you know, I had an apartment, so I had to, no, I was very serious. I was, I wasn't even, I never was into clubs or I don't even drink. I don't smoke. But people, when they see me, they think I do all of that. . I'd say, no, I don't do none of that. I was, no, I was, I was, because on the weekend, I still have a kid. So my mom, um, I had no life for like three years. My life was school and go home and I had the baby and I was 17. My mom wasn't, wasn't sleeping with the baby. I was the one sleeping with the baby. Wake it up at night, three, four times a night. And then going to school. I had no life. I go to the movies, my mom will be like, take your daughter with you, . You know? So she was like, you go to school when you're in school, I will take care of her. When you come off of school, you get your kid. So that's what I was doing. So when I was in Paris, um, I was coming back every weekend. My mom was so, you know, that was, that was a blessing. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. And parents probably also gave you a bit of the freedom right? To like really start to explore the artistic side. 

Laurence Basse:

Absolutely. 

Kathryn Finney:

You know, you've learned a lot. I always say to people, you learn a lot about yourself when you have to leave home. Yeah. No matter what your home situation is. Yeah. When you leave home and you go to a space where you really don't know anybody, and you learn a lot about who you are, when you're in this space where no one knows you, right. Yeah. Get to find you. And so there must freedom for you that I'm in this space where I get to define me. Yeah, 

Laurence Basse:

Absolutely. And I, and I lived by that since forever. You know, I mean, when I moved to New York, I didn't know anybody. I mean, I had an agent kind of, I mean, set up. I didn't speak English, I had to restart from scratch. And everybody's like, you crazy. You're not gonna make it six months just because you say that to me. I mean, I had, I had, I, I think I, I planned enough to where if things don't work out, I can live for like nine months. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yep. 

Laurence Basse:

But, um, so I was modeling. I quit, I was bartending. I quit, I go back to modeling, you know, so I, when I was doing that, I didn't wanna be a designer in my twenties. I wanted to travel and I wanted to, I wanted to explore and I wanted to have fun. So that's what I did. But, um, when I, uh, got pregnant at th I mean, actually no, I set it up. I was like, at 35 I wanna have my son, which I did. And I moved to la which I didn't like LA but I needed a place with no distraction. And I was in la what, 13 years. So I just moved back after the show. 'cause New York is where I need to be. So 

Kathryn Finney:

You were in LA and you came out, project Runway was in, was, was that one of the seasons when they were in LA or was this one of the Seasons when they 

Laurence Basse:

No, we, we actually shot, uh, all the seasons that I was in. I mean, the two seasons we shot in New York. Okay. So we flew to New York. It was like that. But like what hap Yeah, when I, when I moved to LA I was like, you know, the modeling gang is a little dangerous. I, I was like, if you don't be careful, you're gonna get stuck in it because it's so inconsistent. Money and jobs. And then, you know, I I, I was like, I'm not gonna be no 40-year-old model, like trying to get, um, and I had, I had a nice little career, like modeling, but that's, I got bored. I was like, I did everything I wanted to do with that. I need to, I, I was, I needed to create, I didn't know how I was gonna do it. Everybody's like, okay, the, the correct path is to go to school, graduate and go work for a, a brand. 

And I don't know why I'm like this. I just like to complicate my life. And I said, I'm, I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but I'm not gonna do it that way. So I saved enough money, um, when I moved to New York. So I got a job and I was a single mom too, so I was like super tough. Um, and I started my studio. So I was, I mean, it was beautiful. I made probably the first couple of elections, I mean mini elections I made, you know, I was probably giving my stuff away more than I was selling a piece. Yeah. You know, and I was like, I don't know how I'm going to get my name out there, but sometimes you just gotta pray and, and trust the process. And, and, uh, someone um, asked me, actually they had Project Runway in France and I knew this yard that was a supermodel from back then. 

And that was a year before, uh, that was probably in 2015. And I was like, hell no, I'm not doing no reality show. Like Project Runway, like France. I said no. Right. Then a year after that, someone else contacted me. I still dunno who that is. Um, and how did they find me? Sent me an email telling me that it, I I never did a casting for it. I just went right through. Yeah, yeah. Like almost to the end of the casting. And uh, so they just asked me to bring, um, 10 pieces. I did. They had three judges in there and asked you some questions, but I wasn't even sure I wanted to do it yet. 'cause even to reply, it took me to the, um, it took me, um, till the deadline. If the deadline was on September 30th at midnight, I think I submitted everything by 1159 on the 30th. 'cause I wasn't sure. My friend was like, do it. You never know. I was very skeptical. So, um, I did that and I don't know, I was feeling good. I remember I was dancing in a parking, like just I was, I was like, either way, like if I get it or I don't get it, I was, I was proud of making it that far. 

Kathryn Finney:

It makes sense that you, you would be, and it, and one of the reasons why I say that is, um, fa leather is a ma is a particularly hard material to work. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. Like, you, like you can't just be an average filler and say, I'm gonna make a leather jacket. No. And so to be able to manipulate that sort of fabric, right? Yeah. That material, it takes a certain level of skill. So I'm sure when you came in, 'cause they see everyone else doing the same sort of thing, you know? Mm-Hmm. presses. It's the same sort of evening, the same sort of bridal gown, like all that sort of stuff. Here comes this, you know, striking woman who works with leather. And you also have a look too. I think one of the things I really have respected in watching in the show was, um, and we talk about this a lot in the podcast, it's about being yourself and being authentic. Mm-Hmm. . 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

And like, you were just like, always you . 

Laurence Basse:

Uh, and that's all I can be. And that's, I think that's why they had, um, which I understand and I knew it, but I was like, when I went on the show, of course I'm going and I'm like, I'm gonna win this thing 'cause I'm not going to be second, third or get out. But I know it's a risk. Right. It's because, and then this season, seriously, like everybody was super talented, so I was like, oh, this is gonna be a crazy Caesar. But one thing I have to think about is this is a show that's going to last for a, that's a few weeks of taping in my life. Yeah. That's gonna be on TV forever. But that's not gonna define me as a designer. So if I don't be careful And you over there trying to please the judges and step away from your aesthetic when you leave the show, you're dead. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. Because leather is what I do. That's what I sell. And then, um, one thing that people don't know too, that's why they're like, oh, I should do leathers. You don't even know. I, I started leather in 2012 because I was, um, I was formed Ture in Paris. So I worked with the house that used to do stuff with Yvan. She Chanel with all the old ladies that used to work for those houses for like 40 years. So I, I could make a wedding dress, I could do anything, but I was like, I wanna be different. And, um, and leather is very special for me because when I was young, I used to think that only rich people can wear a leather. So every time I see somebody, if you had a leather couch in your house, if you had, um, doesn't not call it TV 

Kathryn Finney:

Nineties, right? Like celebrity 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. Like, like eighties. Like eighties and even nineties, like early nineties. And 'cause we really grew up with, um, I mean we ate, you know, we ate, we had, we always had food, uh, bed, but we didn't even have a couch at home. We didn't have a, a a color tv. But yeah. So I wanted to, um, in 2012 I was like, okay, I don't wanna, how can I be different? And plus I'm a black girl, right. And, um, they always, I don't know, whatever it is that they expect of us, I just want it to be, um, I just wanted them to, I just wanted them to be like, we don't understand her. Like, 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. 

Laurence Basse:

Where is all that coming from? 

Kathryn Finney:

Some people may not know. Fashion Week happens twice a year in the United States. Yes, it happens. There's many fashion weeks around the world, but in New York it's twice a year or September. Like February. So yes, February is for fall. So Fashion Week. Yes. A little bit about the business of Fashion. Fashion Weeks, um, really started to showcase upcoming collections to buyers at stores buyers who needed a long lead time in order to put them in magazines. Yes. Um, and so they usually happen six months before the season, so 

Laurence Basse:

Exactly 

Kathryn Finney:

Fall 2024. Fashion week is happening in February. And you are gonna be showing. 

Laurence Basse:

Oh, yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

When has been your inspiration for this season's collection or, 

Laurence Basse:

I'm still, I'm still producing the collection, but this is, this is more like, um, an official introduction of the brand. Okay. So I will have leather of course, but I will have many different other fabrics and a lot of ready to wear. So be like ready to wear couture. Yeah. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

I'm basically asking for selfish reasons so I can like start shopping. Like what are the colors for fall 2024? 

Laurence Basse:

To tell you the truth, I don't, I don't really follow anything. I never did. I don't, I just, I just go with the floor and I'm always on, on on. Even as in school, like every time I come up with something, it's always, um, always on trend. It's like, you know, like on the show they were making fun of me when I made the denim dress with the boobs. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Look at, look at what's coming out right now. No, it's very nice. You see it everywhere. 

Kathryn Finney:

Denim is also hard to work with. 

Laurence Basse:

I I love denim too. So I definitely have denim two and have leather and have silk to have. Yeah. It's gonna be interesting. It's gonna be, um, I want it to be, uh, the best show in the city. I am ready, I am ready. D So, um, yeah, they need a fire under me. Yeah. I used, I used to love like going to, um, this place, this place in Paris called George Bon. And I used to just sit there for hours and hours and just watch people because that was, uh, a place where a lot of pe international people were like America. Yeah. That's before I came to America, people from everywhere and I was just like, it was inspiration. So I love to travel too. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. No, I was just Paris in July and it was, you 

Laurence Basse:

Were, 

Kathryn Finney:

I was and, uh, try to go to Europe every summer. 

Laurence Basse:

Okay. 

Kathryn Finney:

So I, I, I mean I really, I really like fashion. I was seeing someone, you know, I went and I just had like looks and I just spent hours in, in stores. And so I had a grandmother, just a a brief background. My grandmother was a seamstress. Okay. But she was a, a black woman born in 1920s, Kansas. And I don't know how much you done about the states, but that's like dead middle. 

Laurence Basse:

I heard of it. 

Kathryn Finney:

Born in, there's like nothing exciting about Kansas. Right. Okay. And so, but she was a seamstress and always had this bigger vision of herself. Yeah. And so she used to get French Vogue and Yeah. This is like in the heart of middle America, the most non fashionable part of America. Yeah. 

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

If you think LA's not fashionable, come to Kansas and Milwaukee, Wisconsin, it's not a lot of fashion. Uh, and like grew up with her like, um, you know, and grew up with the magazines and looking through the magazines and she Mm-Hmm. , huge fan of Dior. And so when I went to Paris, this is the first time I got to really be in Paris for any amount of time. Okay. I went to Macon Dior. Okay. Um, and, and it was, it was an emotional experience for me because my grandma who has, has passed away, who I'm named after, her name was Catherine too. I just remember going in and they were like, welcome madam. And I was just like, oh my gosh. Like my grandmother would have loved this. Um, and then I proceeded to buy things I should not have bought. That's 

Laurence Basse:

Always the case. Right. Fabulous. 

Kathryn Finney:

They were fabulous. But, but really being around Parisians and fashion, how effortless it was. I've been taught that because I grew up with this. Mm-Hmm. , my mother was like fabulous and copying Dior 'cause she's a seamstress, but she would copy it and, and wear it. So I grew up around that. And so, you know, we could talk about fashion, the all time . Um, I know like we go down that road in closing. Um, how do you, how do you balance motherhood and, and business? 

Laurence Basse:

You know? Uh, well it's, it's almost like, I would say not in a bad way, but I never felt very connected to regular mothers because I feel like I, when I was supposed to go out and, and have fun and be a kid, I was already a mom. Yeah. So I just say I'm a rock star mom. I mean, it was tough sometimes, I'm not gonna lie, but, um, I was like, listen, I'm a rock star, so wherever I go, put you on my back. And we are going, you know, and with my son, I do the same thing. And I mean, he's scared. My son is 13, I moved so many times, but I always ask him. And, uh, we have little conversation, but he's like, um, mommy, uh, did you always wanted to be a designer? I was like, yeah. It's like, so you're living the dream. I mean, he was little like this kid sometimes I'm like, where do you come from? You know? So, but if he was unhappy, I wouldn't do it. And he's been on the plane since he was like nine months. My daughter, same thing. I mean, she's been traveling since he was a kid. And I did it on purpose too because I started traveling at 20. Now it's like, I have to be on a plane. I have to, I have to go places. I just love it. And it's a lot of inspirations. It's good for them, 

Kathryn Finney:

It's good for them. I'll do a speech and people are always shocked at like how quiet he is. He'll listen. Yeah. He actually takes little notes. Mm-Hmm. , I looked into the notes, I couldn't read them sometimes, but he takes notes. He had a little notebook and he like, take notes at school. They're like, you know, his name is Christian. Like Christian is like his vocabulary. He is like horrible. Like the things he just said. .

Laurence Basse:

Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney:

And I'm like, that's because he's been around people and he's 

Laurence Basse:

Exactly. 

Kathryn Finney:

And so now he knows how to talk and knows how to Exactly. 

And be, and I think it can be good, especially when you let them into your life. Right? Yep. If your mom travels and I was saying to a friend, you know, when they're at home and you don't know where you're at and they've never seen what you do. Yeah. It's not like Mommy's island and it's like black hole universe and I don't know. And that's where the anxiety comes from, from them. Yeah. But he's seen me speak, he's been with me to speechless. So if I say, mommy has to go do a speech over here, he knows exactly what that is and he knows exactly what I'm doing and he knows that I'm coming back from that. Yeah. And it gives him context in which to, to understand what it is that I do versus like keeping him so separate that he has no idea. And it just seems like Mommy's going on and having fun. He knows, I mean, he's come with me and he is been like, oh my God, like you signed, he spent two hours talking to people after that . Like, that was a lot of work. And I'm sure for your son too, it's like, you know, when people recognize you, it's like Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. Like where my, I know where my mom's at. Yeah. Get the amount of work, I get what she's doing. 

Laurence Basse:

Exactly. Um, 

Kathryn Finney:

And, and yeah. It's, it's really, it's been a really interesting process. And so 

Laurence Basse:

I think it's important. 

Kathryn Finney:

Yeah. I think it's important. Yeah. 

Laurence Basse:

'cause we could talk all we want. Right. But, um, it's like, it's like my parents, I mean, back in the days that was like, you know, they were talking all the time. I'm like, if I don't see it, it's, it's, I hear you, but it doesn't really register, doesn't, you know what I mean? But it's like, I mean, I try not to, um, show him when it's because I don't want him, he's a kid. I don't want him to worry about anything. So to him everything looks great. But I mean, I, I've done this, I went through a lot of stuff, but I try to make it, I don't know, I always find something because I don't, 'cause kids they worry. And that's, and I don't want him to be a kid. I don't want him to be like, you know, worried about me 

Kathryn Finney:

Life. You have the rest of the life to worry right now. That's not you. 

Laurence Basse:

Exactly. You know, just be a kid. 

Kathryn Finney:

It was so great chatting with you. Thank you 

Laurence Basse:

So much. Thank you 

Kathryn Finney:

Laurent. This story serves as an inspiration for all of us who are aspiring to build our damn thing while caregiving for others. Thank you Laurent, for opening up and sharing your incredible journey. And to our listeners, keep building the damn thing with the grace and strength that comes from embracing every facet of your journey. 

Kathryn Finney:

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And always remember to build the damn thing.

Episode 3: Balancing Act: Work, Life, and Entrepreneurship w/Darlene Gillard Jones

In this episode of Build The Damn Thing Kathryn Finney and her guest, Darlene Gillard Jones, provide practical insights and heartwarming stories to help entrepreneurs maintain a healthy work-life balance while pursuing their dreams and nurturing their personal lives. Listeners will discover how to effectively manage their time, set boundaries, prioritize self-care, and create a supportive, empowering environment for both business and love.

 

Guests:

Darlene Gillard Jones

Website:  https://www.darlenegillardjones.com/

Instagram/Facebook/X:

@darlenegillardjones

________

 

Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

________

 

Credits: 

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

“Abducted” by HoliznaCC0

“Confusion” by HoliznaCC0

“Guitar Beat” by Kirk Asamayo

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

 

Full Transcript: 

Kathryn Finney

Welcome to another episode of Build a Damn Thing. I'm Kathryn Finney, and today we're getting into a topic that hits close to home for many of us work-life balance. In this episode, we're gonna uncover practical insights to help you navigate the difficulties of maintaining a healthy work-life balance, while pursuing your dreams and nurturing your professional life. Joining me is my dear friend and executive producer of Build a Damn Thing, Darlene Gillard Jones. Darlene and I have worked together on many different projects spanning fashion, entertainment, media, venture capital, and entrepreneurship, and I'm so excited to sit down and chat with her about a topic that we talk about quite often offline. 

Welcome to this episode of Build A Damn Thing. I am Kathryn Finney. I'm your host, and I'm super excited to talk to one of my dearest, dearest, dearest friends, Darlene Gillard Jones. I've known Darlene for a very long time. We'll get into how we know each other, but we've often been referred to as the Thelma and Louise of Tech, which is really interesting. And today we're going to be talking about

Darlene Gillard 

Work life balance,

Kathryn Finney

If that's even possible

And so before we even get started, I'd like to always ask, how do we know each other? How did we actually meet?

Darlene Gillard 

How did we meet? Okay. Let's see. We met when I was doing public relations for a nonprofit organization and I invited you, was it Brag? It was Brag. Was it the Black Retail Retail Action Group? Yes. And you were the Budget Fashionista and I invited you to be a guest speaker. Yeah. Do you remember that? Was it at Macy's or something?

Kathryn Finney

It was forever ago. It was like when Macy's was cute. Right,

Darlene Gillard 

Right.

Kathryn Finney

Shout out to Macy's. Shout out to Macy's. Let's keep it a hundred.

Darlene Gillard 

Shout out to Macy's. So we met then and we, I think just got to know each other a bit and then we talked off and on. And I think at one point, you know what I remember I remember you and I both ended up at a concert in the Bronx. It was like

Kathryn Finney

Hip, hip hop,

Darlene Gillard 

Something, and I was backstage and on stage, but we were talking and for whatever reason, we decided to start working together. You needed some PR and some event help and other help. And so we started working together and started out really as a business relationship. And I

Kathryn Finney 

And I remember that concert because it was like old school hip hop in South Bronx, which is where old school hip hop came from. Originated, right. Originated. And so it was going to this concert and seeing Slick Rick and folks like that, salt and Pepper, oh, grand Master Flash, who's and The Furious five like Melly Mel all these folks in the South Bronx. So this wasn't like you were seeing it down the road in Minneapolis where I grew up. It was in the place where it began. These people who started it. It was this incredible concert that was madness at the same time. It was like a thousand people on the stage.

Darlene Gillard 

It was madness. It was madness. I don't know

Kathryn Finney

What they were doing on the stage.

Darlene Gillard 

Hey, we were on the stage. On was on the stage.

Kathryn Finney

I was in the audience, but exactly why were you on the stage?

Darlene Gillard 

You know what? I was backstage with Pepper's former road manager. She had invited me to attend. And so that's how I ended up on the stage. But the fact that I got on the stage, it was like, what are you doing?

Kathryn Finney 

You were one of the thousands. I was like, where are all these people? No one was rapping. It was just three rappers, but 50,000 people on stage. But it was an amazing concert. It was in a historic concert hall. I forgot the name of it. And it was just really incredible. And so we saw each other, and people always ask me, how do you know Darlene? Because we're so close and everyone knows us as being so close. And I'm like, she's one of those people where I don't even remember how I met. We just kind of met. We just met and we started off as business associates, not as friends. And I think that's one of the things that's really interesting in this journey of building anything, a company, a venture firm, whatever you're building, is that how you meet people along the way? And maybe it starts off as a business relationship, but somehow you see the humanity in each other and as a result you become these great friends and lifelong friends and so.

Darlene Gillard 

How many years has it been now?

Kathryn Finney 

I would say it's been like 15. Wow. I've been in these streets.

Darlene Gillard 

You were in the streets.

Kathryn Finney

I've been in the streets. And Darlene has been in the streets. And I think another thing that people don't know about you is that you are a long-term fashion editor, A real fashion editor. When pre-internet, pre ig, you go in the pull stuff. Fashion Week, fashion

Darlene Gillard 

Editor. That's right. When you got first row in a fashion show because you were at a magazine that the designers appreciated. And going into the market, like you said, pulling merchandise, working with designers closely. Like Michael Kors and I were on a flight, a mini flight from Detroit one time together, Michael Kors, and people only known this. What's he doing in Detroit? He had actually whatever car company had decided to invite some designers to create cars. Okay. So he designed a car and a few editors and the designers all flew out to Detroit for this unveiling of these vehicles. Okay. And we almost died on the way back with crazy turbulence. So that's one major story that I remember about Michael Kors. But yeah, I was a fashion editor. I started out at W and Women's Wear Daily. So really bootcamp for fashion where I learned all the ins and outs.

I was writing stories, I was doing it all left from there. Went to ELLE Magazine. I was there for several years and then moved on to Essence and became fashion editor at Essence. And so it was really a great time in fashion when you got free things, they don't remember lots of free stuff. I miss those days. I miss it too. And when I left that space, it was like I didn't want to buy anything because it was like, I know I can get this for free. But yeah, it was a good time. So I did that and I worked in that space for a long time and then I left and started my own business and I was inspired to leave Essence and start my own business by the editor in chief at that time, who was Monique Greenwood and 

Kathryn Finney 

Monique Green who was the owner of Akwaaba Mansion

Darlene Gillard 

Of Akwabba Mansion, the brand. That's right. And at that time she was opening up her first location in Brooklyn, and now she has about five all over in dc black owned, beautiful bed and breakfast. And she came into the office one day midweek called a staff meeting and said, I'm leaving today. And it was like, what? And she explained how I have a daughter. My daughter starts school tomorrow. She has no school supplies. I've been running this business on the side and I can't continue at this pace. The side gig became the main gig, the side gig became the main gig, and she was out and she left that day and I felt like I wanted to jump out the window right behind her. I was so inspired because as a fashion editor, everyone thinks it's so glamorous and it is, but it's a lot of hard work.

And there were late nights, there were early mornings, there was travel and I had children, I had young children, I had a husband and I had a mother who was sick with cancer and I'm an only child. And so it was overwhelming to me to continue at that pace, especially as my kids got older and started to ask questions. Where are you going? Why are you leaving? When are you coming home? You know what I mean? And so I too was inspired to follow in her footsteps out the door. And actually just got to tell her that recently she didn't know that

Kathryn Finney 

Monique has a book that's actually really interesting. I remember met her a while ago too. This was after she had left and my family had started. My father had passed away, my family had started dry cleaning business, which at some point on the podcast, I would love to have my brother sit down and us talk about that time. It was the most, I'll say that. And she talked about what you just said about making this choice between, it's not even a choice between a career. It's like what type of life do you want to have at the end of the day? What do you want to be remembered for at the end of the day? Who's going to care about you? And I think it's very, very hard in the society that we live in, which tells us to constantly go, go, go, go, go, go, go to say, you know what?

Maybe I want to take a step back or maybe I want to go, but maybe in this direction. And it's particularly hard as black women because we're often told by people what we should do. We are trained from birth to be in service of everyone but ourselves. And sometimes we find ourselves in this situation where, yes, we're like legends and doing a great deal. We're the editor of Essence Magazine and we're leading these sort of things, but we're like, yeah, but that's not really what I care about. I care about that. My kid has school supplies. I care about that. I have this business that I love and it fulfills me and being around people. And that's not what this particular business does. And it's very, very hard, I think for people to understand when you decide that I want a different type of life, that I want balance, that is not something I think anyone is encouraged to have, particularly when you're a woman and particularly when you're a woman of color.

Darlene Gillard 

That's right. And funny that funnily enough, the fact that we're talking about Monique, I spoke to her recently again and it's because I have a friend who owns a bed and breakfast in upstate New York and she's ready to sell. I said, I think Monique would really like this place. Let me call her get her sixth location. So I called her, told her about it. She went to see it. She had been contemplating it. And then the day that she decided not to do it, she was still waffling back and forth and called me by accident. She meant to call the friend and she said, this is another sign that I don't need to do it. She said, it's everything I would ever want. It's beautiful, the aesthetic, the location, everything. But that's not the path I want to go on anymore. I'm ready to start thinking about my next move. And although this would be a moneymaker, all these things, it's not the right choice for me right now because of where I want my life to be. And so I thought that was really, really powerful that she decided to make that choice. And we've seen it so many times in season two of your podcast, we talked to Lisa Price.

Kathryn Finney 

Yes. The great Lisa Price founder of Carol's daughter, yeah.

Darlene Gillard 

That’s right. And she talked about selling her company or it being acquired and what it meant. Of course, the community had issues with that

Kathryn Finney

Girl. I know when I sold the budget fashionista stuff, people were like, what?

Darlene Gillard 

That's right. That's right. And I'm sure we'll talk about that at some point, but I mean you talk about it in season two, but when she moved on, it was right for her and her life and her staff. They all now had all these benefits and perks that she couldn't provide them as a small business. But now that she's under this larger corporation, she can do that. And she's thinking about later, what am I going to do? What can I do now? I can do all this stuff now that I have all this money and I can just take care of me and my family. And I think that that's a valuable lesson.

COMMERCIAL BREAK

Kathryn Finney 

I think the model we're operating in this outdated model of life, which was you work for 40 years for the same company doing the same thing. You retire, you have a pension, and then retirement is when you get to have fun. You don't get to have fun during the prime of your life. It's when you're older and that's when you sit down and rest. I think we're in this shifting of what does it mean to have a life now? I want to have a lifelong, I'm living life. I don't want to wait until I'm 60 to be able to experience my life. I want to have it now because who knows if I'm going to get to 60, but I know I'm here in the present. And I think this idea of living in the present is one of the really big keys to work-life balance that I found is living in right now.

So I'm of course planning for the future and saving, and I have a child, so I'm looking for that and looking to support him. But right now, I am here. I have friends, I have people. How do I get to experience them? Am I so focused on the future or the past or what people think my future past should be or what they think I should do that I'm ignoring the present and who's already here and making sure that I honor that. One of the biggest things I've learned to do is to say no. And that no is a complete sentence. No is a complete sentence and saying it. And people will get, I mean, I've had people get angry, upset that I said, no, sometimes it's personal, but a lot of times it isn't just, I have this son and I need to do this.

I had a very big speech that was going to pay me lots and lots and lots of money, but it was Halloween and I have this 8-year-old who loves Halloween, and I take him trick or treating every year and it was, I have to take my son trick or treating. To me that is much more important than money. And I've had people scoff at me. What I remember, I was invited to go speak by a very, very, very well known tech person, one of the tech guides. Everyone would know exactly who this person is. I was invited to speak on the night of the presidential election of 2008. I was invited to speak, but I was also invited to be in Chicago on that night into attend the sort of pre-election thing with all the Obama folks who were working the campaign as well as if he won the post party, but there was going to be a party even if he lost because I mean a black man made it that far. We were going to party no matter what.

And it was the next day I was invited to go to this massive, I mean it would've set my career off even higher. And I was really struggling with it. And I asked this tech guy who has two private jets, is there any way I can go to this? Because it's really important as an African-American, as someone who worked on the Obama campaign to really be there, it's really important for my community to be there that night. Is there any way I can hop on someone's private plane in the morning because that would've gotten me there. A commercial flight would've taken too long just because of layovers and stuff. And I was like, is there any way I can hop on that or somebody or just join or is there anything you can do? And he was like, no. He was like, you got a choice to make.

Literally. It was like, you have a choice to make. And I decided, well, yeah, I wanted to go to this Obama thing. And I do not regret it one moment because I was there the night he was elected, I was there. I saw him shook his hand the night he was elected as an African-American whose parents had worked and grandparents had worked to be able to experience that was more valuable to me. And I think sometimes when we think of work-life balance, sometimes we just think of it in terms of children and relationship. We also don't think of it in terms of other things that are important to us like church. And I'm open to all religions and all faiths and people, what all different people believe. But for me, especially being in the spaces that I'm in, I faith is what has allowed me to continue to grow and excel because there is no way I could be a black woman doing what I do if I did not have this reservoir of faith.

And so for me, going to church and being community with other people who are thriving and trying to do things, and I go to a very progressive church called Trinity, United Church of Christ here in Chicago. Everyone is doing something. I mean, the model of the church is unapologetically black, unapologetically Christian which is kind of my life model. And so being able to do all the work but come home and be home for Sunday so I can go to church so I can get that fuel I need to be able to do this work is also part of the balance too. Working out. I know you work out. We work out together. We took a golf lesson together.

Darlene Gillard 

Yeah, we did. Which was fun.

Kathryn Finney

Lets whack the shit out of that ball.

Darlene Gillard

I know. And then as my back hurts now as we talk about it, but also Kathryn, there are some people out here who can't seem to figure it out. Just the important things like you said. And I remember telling someone one time, they were like, oh, my mom always wants me to call. I never get to talk to my mom. And I said, put it in your calendar. I do. I did that with my 90-year-old aunt every other Sunday or every third Sunday in Atlanta. I just put a calendar notification to give her a call, 30 minutes on the phone. She was happy and could last a whole month without hearing from. And so for me, balance means scheduling all those things. Scheduling the gym. I have a notice in my phone for every Wednesday to take that Pilates class. I'm taking the senior Pilates class at this point because I love it. So easy. It's easy, but

Kathryn Finney 

It's

Darlene Gillard 

Good. They

Kathryn Finney

Really can. Don't get it twisted.

Darlene Gillard 

No, you're absolutely right. They

Kathryn Finney

Don't play. Grandma got abs,

Darlene Gillard 

But it's in my calendar. And so I schedule meetings around it. I schedule travel around it, and those things are important to me and it's the only way I can really get through being an entrepreneur. But

Kathryn Finney

What you do though is you keep that time sacred. That's right. And one of the things I see that happens is things to do with family, things to do with self-care. All of those things become secondary to this primary work. And so if something came up with work, well then I'm going to not do that. And it's like one of the things I found is that you can push back. You can say to people, Hey, I know you want to talk at two, but are you available at six?

Darlene Gillard 

So easy to do that

Kathryn Finney 

And most people are like, yeah, I'm available at six. Exactly. But you have to keep that time and that space. You have to hold space. And I think that's one of the things that people have a challenge, which is holding space saying, I work out every morning. I know that if I don't work out, I'm be cool for Cocoa Puffs, so I got to be in the gym working out and it makes me a better person. It makes me a better mother, it makes me a better employee, makes me a better team member. It makes me a better CEO, all of those sort of things. And what I think happens is that people neglect that, especially when you are, I think people of color. I think it's very easy for us to put ourselves in the back burner. It's very easy for women to put ourselves on the back burner because again, we're trained.

Society trains us that we put ourselves second after everyone else and saying, well, no, I need to do this. I need to go work out. I'll even stuff with my son. And it's like, look, I schedule his stuff around my workouts. I am not going to be here. I'm an older mother. I am not an old mom, but I'm an older mother. I have to work out and eat healthy so that I can be around for you. So the 10,000 kids birthdays that I'm curling in, I mean shout out to all the parents whose kids' birthdays are in February. I mean, Jesus. I mean one February, this is a digression, but one February, we literally had eight birthday parties. Oh man. I was like, what were y'all doing? Back in, I guess it was March or April of 2015 because 

Darlene Gillard 

Getting Busy

Kathryn Finney

All the children had birthdays in February. But even that, it was like, okay, which birthday parties are we going to go to? We don't have to go to everyone. That's right. I want you to be with all your closest friends. We're going to definitely make those. But all the other ones we have to think about. But really even saying, I've got to take care of me, my mental health, my physical health so that I can be a better mom for you. And so sometimes I have to say No,

Commercial Break

Darlene Gillard 

Do that. I have this one regret. And you, since we've been friends, have taught me that no is a sentence. I love that line. No is a sentence. I've told it to my kids, but one regret that I have, when my daughter was younger and I was a fashion editor, I had the opportunity to fly to Tahiti dive for pearls and then judge an international jewelry competition.

Kathryn Finney

Oh, my

Darlene Gillard 

Daughter had a dance recital, her very first dance recital. And to go to the recital meant that I missed the flight and I couldn't get to LA in time to catch the connecting flight to go over to Tahiti. And I thought about it for a long time, but I decided to go to this dance recital and my husband was there, my mom was there, my sister-in-Law, everybody was there and they all could have been there. And I didn't go on this trip. And I regret it to this day because my daughter has no clue. She has no memory.

Kathryn Finney

She didn't remember that being, she was like, I was in dance. Right,

Darlene Gillard 

Exactly. And one of the reasons why I chose to stay was because my husband was putting a little pressure on me. I think he wanted to go and he put a little pressure on me and I didn't feel supported if I had made that choice

And I didn't make the choice. And again, I regret it to this day. And so since then, like you said, sometimes I just got to say, no, I can't be there. It's not going to happen. And I don't feel guilty about it anymore. And a lot of times we place guilt on ourselves for not doing that as black women. And I don't do that anymore. I don't care what it is. If I don't want to do it, I ain't doing it. I'll think about it, I'll consider it, but I'm not doing it because I need to be good and whole.

Kathryn Finney

You hit on something really interesting about support and we have to get comfortable, but sometimes walking alone and making decisions that are best for us that other people don't get. And there are times where we're not going to have the support

And sometimes we're not going to have the support because people don't want to support us. Sometimes we're also going to have the support just because people don't understand the decision. And that's particularly important when you're a visionary. It's something that I've struggled with my whole entire life of seeing things four steps before everybody else and no one completely not getting it and getting comfortable with the fact that I'm going to be walking on this path alone for a little bit until everybody else catches up. 

And so I think when you talk about that work-life balance and making these sort of decisions and choices, because you do have to make choices. That's how you maintain balance to keep the scale sort of equal. You're going to have to take something off of this side, add something to this, maybe add something to this side and take something off of that. You're going to be making choices of what to remove, what to add, what to remove, what to add, and getting comfortable with that. It may be a singular choice, meaning you may not have anybody to help you. You may not have anyone to support you or even understand why you're making that choice and being very, very comfortable with that.

Darlene Gillard 

Yeah, yeah. It's not an easy thing to do. You have to come to a place in your life where you just accept it and do it. And a lot of people can't do that. They just feel like they can

Kathryn Finney

Why do you think they can't do that? Do you think it's fear?

Darlene Gillard 

I think they, yeah, it's fear. It's fear of walking alone. It's fear of going against the grain. It's fear of disappointing people, fear of change. But I'm here to tell you that saying no is what's up.

Kathryn Finney

I also think it's social media and I feel really, so I always feel bad saying bad things about social media, seeing that I was at the beginning and kind of helped start a lot of the stuff. But I think social media, everyone is still branded and everything is so branded and hustle culture. And one of the things I always tell people is that most of the things you see on social media are lies including the people who are talking. I mean, most of them are lies and they're talking about hustling, doing all this other stuff, and they're really not. And a lot of 'em are not actually doing very well financially. And how do I know? Because I've loaned money to many of people. And so I think this hustle culture, which tells us everything else that's important to a balanced life is not, it's very extreme.

It's like you're either on a flight to Bali, taking pictures in flowy dresses, or you're on the grind making money and where the money resides, it's either or. And it's not like this happy medium. It's not this happy medium. And I think we're in this phase of like, I've got to always be moving. And because social media is a highlight reel of everyone's life, you think, oh my God, I want that highlight reel and I've got to work and I've got to do all this stuff. Whether or not the highlight reel is an actual real highlight reel. It's a whole other discussion. And so you're hustling, hustling, hustling, and there's no balance because that's not what social media is. It's not balance, right? It's not talking about that I want to be this person. I want to look like this person. I want to be there and not realizing the work.

It takes. The choices you have to make really tough choices to have to make. Do you go diving in Tahiti or do you go to your kids' recital? Do you call your mama or do you spend an extra 30 minutes prepping for a pitch? What do you do in making those decisions? And the thing about being a leader, an entrepreneur, you're making them every day. That's the thing that I don't think people quite understand is I make those decisions. I make 10,000 of those decisions every day. Do I drop my son off at school or do I do this? I, it's constantly balancing. Another tip I would give people is figure out how to hack your life, meaning figure out how to simplify things that don't need to be complicated. So for example, I make my son's lunch. What I do is on Amazon automatically order all the key things for lunch.

And for a while there I was trying to do everything organic and cutting the vegetables all cute and making everything super nice. And I was like, fuck that shit. I don't got time making stars out of carrots. I really honestly do not, you're running a multimillion dollar fund bitch. Why are you trying to make stars out of carrots? You don't have that time. And he don't even notice it. He doesn't even notice it. He just knows where it tastes good. He wasn't like wearing the carrots with the stars. And so figuring out, using Amazon, not feeling guilty kind, and the cleaner lady hiring a cleaning lady as a black woman, that was tough. I don't know why that was tough for me. That was so tough. 

Darlene Gillard 

It's tough for a lot of black women. I have a relative whose mother is from down south

Old. What you mean? You got a cleaner lady coming in here washing your clothes. It's like,

Kathryn Finney 

Because we were the cleaning ladies. That's the problem. And we remember that. But let me just say, shout out to my cleaning lady. Hey girl. I think there is a way to honor the people whose jobs allow you to do your job. And my housekeeper allows me to do my job. Her work allows me to do my work. I could not have people, I could not have. The podcast is filmed in my house. I couldn't have people open my house if I didn't have a cleaner to clean. I have a pretty big house. It would be difficult for me to clean it by myself. And so her work allows me to do my work. Another way for balance is asking for help. My mother lives with me. Grandma hooks it up, she cooks, she cleans. My son loves it. You got grandma here. She's fun. And I love it because if a plane is late, I don't have to worry about who's watching my kid. I don't have to get nervous. And I think that that's one of the other things with balance is accepting help,

Darlene Gillard 

Accepting help, and just wrapping your mind around it. I got someone to come in and cook for us.

Kathryn Finney

Oh, I love that.

Darlene Gillard 

Twice a week. My husband wanted to be vegan. It's like, all right, let's figure this out. And it was a struggle. And I said, you know what? I'm going to do this. And I did it. And it cost less than Uber Eats

Kathryn Finney

Yup.

Darlene Gillard 

And a lot of times we think, oh, I can't afford that. I can't do that. Yeah, you can.

Kathryn Finney

I think it's not a money thing. Sometimes I think it's a class thing.

Darlene Gillard 

It's a lot of things. We have a lot of baggage

Kathryn Finney 

It's a class, not money. What does it mean if I have a housekeeper? What does it mean if I have a cook? Only certain boujee people have cooks or only certain. And it's like, no, I'm effing busy. I am busy. This person is a chef and they make really good food and honored. I'm paying them for their labor, which is skilled labor that not everybody can cook. As we all know coming out of Thanksgiving, we all have that family member. We're like, don't you don't got to bring anything. Don't bring that. You bring the game, you bring the poor game. You don't have to bring the drinks, sodas, bring the soda. But having that person come in and help and honoring that person and paying them the wage that they need to get paid, that's to help create balance in your life. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think we've put so much on these sort of jobs because of class. 

My housekeeper drives a real nice car. I also got a really dirty ass house. So she make her money and she deserves every penny of it. And she deserves to have that amazing car. If you had to clean out my 8-year-old, you would make your money too

Darlene Gillard 

But Kathy, I had to get over the fact that I had a cook, A chef come in, chef Tiffany is her name. She's fabulous

Kathryn Finney

Hey Chef Tiffany.

Darlene Gillard 

When my family members are there and she's rolling up and I'm like, Hey,

Kathryn Finney

Yeah, they don't get it, do they

Darlene Gillard 

No. And I have to be like, Ugh. And I feel a way. I felt a little badly. What is that? Survivor's remorse, right? Yeah. I felt a little badly because I have this person coming in and I had to get over it. Like she really does help us. No one has time to cook. We want to eat right. And it's cheaper than Uber Eats. You know what I mean? Yeah. So you have to get rid of those, whatever those are called where you don't feel embarrassed.

Kathryn Finney

Hangups, insecure, like a baggage. It's really

Darlene Gillard 

Baggage. Yeah, it is

Kathryn Finney

Baggage. 

Commercial Break 

Kathryn Finney 

I was reading a quote from someone, unless you're saying how shocked they were to realize that Erika Badu's bag lady song wasn't about bags, or at least not, it was that kind of bag, not that kind of bags. And we have a lot of baggage, which definitely prohibits our ability to balance. And so as we wrap up this episode, what are some advice that we would give entrepreneurs? Those were just working who are living life in order to maintain balance? We gave a couple asking for help. No is a complete sentence. What are some other ones?

Darlene Gillard 

I think we have touched on quite a few. I mean, self-care, putting yourself first,

Kathryn Finney

That is so important.

Darlene Gillard 

Putting yourself first.

Kathryn Finney

And that's not selfish.

Darlene Gillard 

It's not. 

Kathryn Finney

There's a difference between self-care and selfishness. And I think a lot of people don't understand that self-care is I'm honoring myself. I'm refueling my tank so I can give to others.

Darlene Gillard 

That's right.

Kathryn Finney 

Selfish is I'm just keeping everything. I'm not even trying to, once I refuel myself, I'm just going to give it to me. I'm not giving it to anybody else. That is how I define selfish self-care is I'm refueling my tank so I can give to others. And part of that is maintaining some fuel for myself so I can continue to do, and I don't get burnt down. I don't get resentment and things like that.

Darlene Gillard 

That's right. And technology is a blessing. There are so many tools that you can use to just make your life a little bit easier. And don't be afraid for those who aren't in technology or who are afraid of it, don't be afraid to use it to help you Organize your life. 

Kathryn Finney

Know one thing about the older family member, one thing I found really helpful with older family members is teaching 'em how to text.

Darlene Gillard 

Yeah,

Kathryn Finney 

I'm telling you. And let me just say, my mom is like a text genius. She can do emoji. She know all the emojis, even ones, I'm like, where you doing that?

Darlene Gillard 

What that emoji? But she doesn't right. Love mom at the end. Because a lot of older people do that sometimes.

Kathryn Finney

She does that. She slips into that a little bit. But you know what? I'm like, it's okay because I can be doing something and I can send her a quick text. I can send her memes, I can send her these sort of things. And it's not like getting in dialing and stuff like that. And so teaching them how to text and getting used to text, and she can send it to me and she can see that I saw it and that I'll say, I'm going to text you later. I saw it. I got it. Or I could just send a quick little heart to just acknowledge. 

And that's most of the time what most people want is just acknowledgement. Acknowledgement that I see you and I understand and I see you. And so for a parent teaching 'em the text, all you have to do is just heart it or thumbs up. For a lot of them, that's just enough. And so I find that to be one of the big hacks with older families who you want to maintain relationships with. Also sleep. I cannot tell. There's a whole thing. Anyone who has worked with me, Charmaine, or chief of staff, will tell you about Kathryn's sleep situation because I have a whole situation. I mean the good sheets, the bowling branch, the

Darlene Gillard 

Weighted blanket. You have a weighted blanket

Kathryn Finney 

I have a weighted blanket. I have really good comforter with a good duvet, great pillows. What is that Sava bed. That's really great. I have great lighting. I have lavender oil. My mom gave me some calming spray, which I think was a hint. You need to calm down. But I spray it on the linen spray in my shower. Whether you have a high-end shower or not, you can do this. You can get these steamers, you can get 'em at Target. Target, Walgreens, CVS where you put 'em in your shower, and as the shower heats up, it steams and it's like lavender and eucalyptus. I do that whole situation. Good pajamas. If you wear pajamas, well, some of us don't, some of us. But all of these things, having a whole sleep, whatever it is that relax you to get yourself ready to sleep, putting the phone away away, that is a big disruptor of our sleep in

Darlene Gillard 

Another room altogether

Kathryn Finney

Another

Darlene Gillard 

Really

Kathryn Finney 

Is the best. Just let it go. Ain't none of that important. Nobody in the ig Dm’ing you. That's that important. And you will be amazed by how good sleep will impact the quality of your life as well as your ability to have balance.

Darlene Gillard 

And one other thing that I would say, Kathryn, is some advice that I got from a college professor once, do what you love and the money will come.

Kathryn Finney

Oh, yes.

Darlene Gillard 

And I think this new generation of Gen Zers are doing what they love. And the money's on the con. They're not going to do it. They will leave a job in a heartbeat.

Kathryn Finney

I love it.

Darlene Gillard 

I love it too. And they will travel and they will the job, the remote job to give them the quality of life that they want. Let's take a lesson from them.

Kathryn Finney

I love it. I'm a huge Gen Z fan. I just love how they're just living the life. That's right. And trying to live within their morals while also being able to eat. And I appreciate

Darlene Gillard 

That. And morals for them are high on the list, unlike some other generations. They don't care necessarily about the money. It's about the quality of their

Kathryn Finney

Lives. Yeah. Well, Darlene, you one of my favorite people. Oh, you are ditto. I mean, there's going to be more episodes with us. We'll have to do a whole episode about fashion

Darlene Gillard 

Maybe during fashion week. Well, who knows?

Kathryn Finney

Yeah, we could go in. We have stories. They and I have stories about fashion, have stories. But did you go to that party? I had a party for the fifth anniversary of the budget fashionista.

Darlene Gillard

I did not. 

Kathryn Finney 

It was at Housing Works. Yeah. No, and it was bananas. It was all sorts of folks like Carson Kressley. Shout out to Carson, who's a really amazing person in fashion and stuff. But we gave out free jeans and shoes and stuff. It was just like madness. It was pandemonium. But I kind of miss those days when fashion was like that and the variety of fashion shows. We were talking about being in the tents and how you would just see everyone. It was like this community around fashion. Now I feel like because of social media, it's not really a community. 

Kathryn Finney

We are going to sit down and have a two hour Kiki after a show with the free coffee that you got in the tent. We're going to sit down and do that. Or you would just see random editors or celebrities. We had a long conversation about Andre Leon Talley as well, and others sort of fashion celebrities.

Darlene Gillard 

Beth Ann, Hardison

Kathryn Finney

Beth Hardison

Darlene Gillard 

Documentaries is out. Amazing,

Kathryn Finney

Amazing documentary. If you have not seen Beth Ann's documentary, please, please, please watch it.

Darlene Gillard 

Is it called Invisible Beauty? Is that it?

Kathryn Finney

Yeah, invisible Beauty and just incredible woman, incredible life story. I want to go visit her in Mexico City just to

Darlene Gillard 

Your favorite place

Kathryn Finney

Which is one of my favorite places. I'm really like, Bethann like you know what? You're like my spirit. God, I don't know you personally. I've only met you a couple of times, but man, I would just sit at your feet and just hear the stories in Mexico City just living it. But thank you, Darlene. I appreciate you. I love you. Thank

Darlene Gillard 

You. I love you too, Kathryn.

Kathryn Finney 

Time management, transparent communication, setting boundaries, and prioritizing self-care are the cornerstones to achieving a healthy work life and love balance. As we conclude this episode, I encourage you to reflect on the insights shared on the art of balancing at all. It's not easy, but it can happen. May you find inspiration in this episode and practical tips to help you maintain and harmonious balance in your life. Until next time, keep building the damn thing.

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform. And always remember to build the damn thing.

Episode 2: Defying Convention w/Roger Carter

Many have walked unconventional paths, made bold decisions, and exhibited incredible resilience. They've not only broken barriers but also redefined what's possible.

In this episode of "Build The Damn Thing," Kathryn Finney dives into the captivating journey of visual artist Roger Carter who has defied convention, shattered barriers, and paved new paths in the art world. 

 

Guests:

Roger Carter

Website:
https://www.rogerjcarter.art
https://www.agapecollective.com/rogerjcarter

 

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Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

________

Credits:

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Copper Media Group

Post-Production Manager: Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Sound Editor: Mert Cetinkaya

Music Supervisor: Darlene Gillard Jones and Mert Cetinkaya

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Music in the order of appearance:

"Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

“City Line” by Beat Mekanik

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

“Hazy” by Beat Mekanik

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

“Step” by Cyrus

          Source: Free Music Archive

          License: Creative Commons 4.0 Int'l

 

Full Transcript:

Kathryn Finney 

Many entrepreneurs have walked unconventional paths, made bold decisions and exhibited incredible resilience. Unconventional wisdom often leads to innovation and breakthroughs, and people who think outside the box are the ones who redefine industries. And in this episode of Build a Damn Thing, will discover how thinking differently can be a game changer. Roger Carter is an award-winning visual artist that captures the context of modern culture and the persona of the African-American journey to the representation of iconic images in everyday citizens. Roger has defied convention, paved new paths in the art world, and I'm a proud collector of his art. 

Kathryn Finney 

Welcome back to Build a Damn Thing. I am joined today with Chicago Artist Historic Roger Carter, who I'm honored to own one of your amazing pieces and just really excited to talk to you today about Chicago in general, the art community here, which is incredibly vibrant. It's also a little bit about the business of art and so on. Build dam thing. We talk a lot about entrepreneurship and investing and things like that, but take a much more broader view of those sort of things and just starting a business really this idea that entrepreneurship gives you a creative life in which you can control. And that's the reason why we're entrepreneurs. And so just was really excited to chat with you, especially knowing a little bit about you and your background. And so getting a little bit into Chicago. So you are from here? 

Roger Carter 

Yes. I'm born and raised on south side of Chicago. 

Kathryn Finney 

When you say south side, because south side's big South. What part of the south side? The south side or south side? 

Roger Carter

South side. Middle like Inglewood, 63rd Street, 79th Street in the Auburn Gresham. It's kind of where I came up 

Kathryn Finney 

At. It's not the Hyde Park, like New Chicago. 

Roger Carter

I didn't 

Kathryn Finney 

Probably the real saw side. Really? 

Roger Carter 

Yeah, the thing about it, that type of neighborhood, I probably didn't see Hyde Park until I was probably in high school. 

Kathryn Finney 

Really? 

Roger Carter

Yeah. I mean I did like, wow. I mean, I knew about the lake, like a rainbow beach. We would take the bus all the way to the end of the line and it was like, wow, it's a beach in Chicago. But as far as it being on the north side and things like that, we just didn't really navigate there. 

Kathryn Finney 

And that's interesting why the beach is not that far from Inglewood, right? Maybe mentally it's really far, but not geographically. It's not that far. 

Roger Carter 

Yeah. Well, I mean, when you don't have a car, it's far 

Kathryn Finney 

Right. You got to take a bus, 

Roger Carter 

So you have to take a bus and the bus stops at every block and things like that. It's like 45 to get to the beach. We'll just cut on the fire hydrants and we are cool ourselves out that way. So it was definitely a lot of that growing up. So as I got older, I kind of realized how beautiful the city was, but even growing up I realized how segregated the city was. It's gotten a lot better than what it used to be when I was a kid. So the thing, what I try to tell people is my father, he was a blockbuster. He was the first black on the block. So when he moved in, all the white people kind of moved out and then black people came in. But black folks immediately followed white people to the south suburb. Oh sure. So we call it, I call it, yeah, white flight and black flight. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney 

Yeah, you did. 

Roger Carter 

And our block, it was all classic Chicago bungalow. It wasn't like apartment. 

Kathryn Finney 

They're beautiful. 

Roger Carter 

Yeah, they're masterpiece. The architecture and yeah. So that's kind really what, and it happened in this neighborhood too. Oh, in Brownsville. That people, they figured what was white was right, and then you could still get to those neighborhoods and still be segregated. The neighborhoods was segregated too. 

Commercial

Kathryn Finney 

How has that influenced your path? I know you started off as an athlete, right? 

Roger Carter 

Yeah, yeah. I started as an athlete, as a basketball player. I played most sports, but I was really excelled in basketball. I kind of knew. Wow. I kind of knew early on that that's how I was going to get through school. My parents made it very clear that we don't have anything saved up for you to go to college. I would see commercials like that. I'm like, oh, cool. My parents, they've been saving up money for me to go to school, but they were very clear that we don't have anything like that for you. We love, 

Kathryn Finney 

We'll send you some food. But 

Roger Carter 

Yeah, so I knew mean when I was a freshman in high school, a coach, he said, well, you can play division one basketball. I see that for you. And so that's how I focus on basketball. But I was always into technology and art as well in that neighborhood. 

Kathryn Finney 

So when did you first know that that you an artist? 

Roger Carter 

Oh wow. Yeah. Very, very, very young. God, I never really thought about it like that. And I'm still this type of artist where if I don't have something in front of me, I'll just make it. If I need a certain want something to be a certain color, I'll just paint it. So at that time, I remember when Michael Jordan came to Chicago and he had the Air Jordans and things like that. So I couldn't really afford 

Kathryn Finney 

Black, white, red. 

Roger Carter 

So me and my friends couldn't afford that or a Nike. So we would go to the thrift shop, thrift store and I would paint a Nike sign or Nike logo on the shirt when I would do the same thing with sneakers. It was kind of unique and it was different. People would rag on you a little bit, but I just thought it was a way to be unique and to stand out. And I think I kind of do that with art as well. I can paint, I paint just as good as any artist, but then we all look the same. So for a way to always figure out a way to stand out and be unique and just being able to work with the stuff that's placed in front of 

Kathryn Finney 

Me. Like constructing art of out of what you have and what is accessible. 

Roger Carter 

Exactly. 

Kathryn Finney 

Which some people would say is true art of taking what's around you, your environment, and using that in a way to create something new and something powerful. 

Roger Carter 

Oh yeah, absolutely. People that know the art and how I create it. It's a lot of many cases to be recycled material stuff I find in the dumpster and I just create it from there. So yeah, I just never thought about it that way, but those, yeah. 

Kathryn Finney 

Did you see high school Roger playing basketball? What position did you play before it? 

Roger Carter 

Well, I'm six two, so I played the off guard. 

Kathryn Finney 

Off guard, yeah. 

Roger Carter 

Which means that every time I got the ball, I shot it. 

Kathryn Finney 

Yeah. So you were shooting off guard? I played basketball too. But you were like the shooting guard, off guard, shooting guard. And especially in Chicago, which has a rich, rich history of basketball. Right. Dwayne? I would say his name wrong, but Dwayne made I, I'm going to call him Dwayne Wayne from Greg. It's similar, but Dwayne Wade and others who came out. Isaiah Thomas. Isaiah Thomas who came out of Chicago from the west side, Chicago. 

Roger Carter 

And Chicago has a rich basketball history 

Kathryn Finney 

Very much so 

Roger Carter 

As well. So this really probably the most competitive pickup games you'll ever to see, 

Kathryn Finney 

I'm sure. So when you were playing basketball, this high school basketball star, was the art part the art encouraged or was it more the basketball encouraged? Do you have anyone there encouraging that other talent too? 

Roger Carter

The thing about, I tell this all the time and people don't believe me. I took art. I was always interested. I took art classes and flunked it or got deeds in it. It kind of affected my GPA where I maybe couldn't play basketball. But the part about it, what I didn't understand is I guess there's books and the teacher says, you have to do something this way and do it that way. And I didn't think that was art. 

Kathryn Finney 

Interesting. So in art it was very, not instructional, but very rigid in this space that wasn't supposed to be rigid. Right. 

Roger Carter 

And the teacher didn't really, I don't think she understood me. And it was funny because all my classmates loved the art. They were like, wow, man, you can really draw. And I don't know why she gives you such a hard time. And my father would call my father was like, man, dude, this is what you do. You're an artist. Why are you getting these grades in art? And I tried to explain it to him and he was like, this makes no sense to me. And when I look back on it, it makes sense to me. 

Kathryn Finney 

But you had someone encouraging you, your father who saw the artists in you. Yeah. It seems like your art teacher was very much art to that person was probably coloring side the lines. Yeah. There's some people who believe that's what art is. Coloring side the lines. 

Roger Carter 

Yeah. My father used to say, yeah, this quote, I don't know if it wasn't his quote, he said those they can't, they teach. Yeah. Is that if that teacher was a great artist, that's what she would be. So she's teaching it so you have to learn to adapt and things 

Kathryn Finney 

Like that. Did you get any theory at least or anything from her, any background on famous, any sort of maybe foundational things that you could later use and draw on? 

Roger Carter 

The only thing I got was shapes, drawn in shapes because I didn't, so it's not like there was no book, so I wouldn't could look at something to just draw it. But she said, no, you have to draw the shape. You have to know the triangle in the circle and put it together. And then I was like, oh, okay. 

Kathryn Finney 

It's a little of foundation. Do you use any of it now? 

Roger Carter

A little bit. Yeah. 

Kathryn Finney 

You're like, not really. So this young artist, this young basketball player, you go to school for basketball on a basketball scholarship, a lot of folks coming out of our communities that is the way out with sports. Did you have any interaction with arts while you were in college or was that pretty much focused on the sports aspect of it? 

Roger Carter 

In college, that's your job and it takes up a lot of your time. And so I was really, really focusing on my major. It wasn't art. I think it was technology 

Kathryn Finney 

Actually. Why didn't you major in art? 

Roger Carter 

My father, I mean the law of parents make any money, man. I don't know why you want to do 

Kathryn Finney 

Something like that. Right. Practical. I understand. 

Roger Carter 

I'm like, okay. It's just cool. They don't make any money. But I always had interest in technology. My brother was a computer hacker athlete and artist. He did art as well. So it's like, well, and he actually encouraged me. He said, you got to do technology. That's what it's going to be. And it was a really, really good decision for over 20 years. I've never had to worry about a job. It was something I love doing, but it wasn't like art because art is, I can work it and I go to the art, then it's like that I could do this for, that'd be perfect. 

Kathryn Finney 

Do you see a connection between art and software engineer? And the reason why I ask that, I know a lot of software engineers who either started as artists and then became software engineers or software engineers and then became artists. 

Roger Carter

Oh, absolutely. For me, and it's the type of software engineer, I mean, engineers know what I mean by object oriented programming and things like that. So it's working on small chunks of things. I always say I just kind of work on small chunks of the piece and then I finally put the piece together. That way I'm making progress. Those are the type of goals that I like to do. Short-term goals, it's like my house. I may need to clean it up, but I'm going to clean up one room at a time, not the whole thing because I'll never clean it up. I'll never finish. So I take that mindset when developing software or developing art. So I think it goes, at least for me, that works for me. 

Commercial

Kathryn Finney 

So let's talk a little bit about your process. Your process as an artist. And so you use a lot of found objects, but particularly action heroes. Yes. And I was watching a video in which you were talking about your process and the use of action heroes in this really challenge that's existed since beginning of time between good and evil. And so where did the inspiration come from to use that and to incorporate that into art? 

Roger Carter 

Well, it, I've always done political art and things like that where being an engineer, I wasn't necessarily boxed into doing something that's popular or that what sells, right? So I always, 

Kathryn Finney 

Because you had income, right? 

Roger Carter 

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Income and I can experiment a lot more and things like that. But I never wanted to be an artist that did art just for money or popularity. So I always did Black Panthers or Huey p Newton or James Baldwin. I always did those characters. And then like I say, like I said earlier, I said, I can paint. I know I can paint. I said, so if we can do something different, and then I saw I should play with the soldiers as a child, I knew they were pretty affordable and I just thought it would be the perfect message that I was trying to convey whether the soldiers represents maybe the oppressor, so to speak. And as a child, you don't see it that way, but as you get older you see it and you see the stuff that's on TV and things of that nature. 

But as an adult, and especially in Chicago, with it being so segregated, I just said, you know what? I'm going to try this. And honestly, I only want to do a few. I was going to do the whole black pandas, those my revolution. And then people were telling me about other revolutionaries and things to consider, and maybe you should do this as well. And part of it too, another, I dunno if this answered the question, but gallery, I had a solo show at a gallery ard, and at the time, the Grard don't necessarily do solo shows for artists. So I was born and raised in Chicago, have a solo show in Chicago, and I always said, I never wanted to do a solo show because I thought it was a bit narcissistic. I'm like, okay, so people are going to come in, they're going to see the same style and they're going to be like, okay, they're over it. So I said, you know what? I'm going to introduce these soldiers. I'm going to do different mediums. It was abstract art in there and it was about paintings and it was everything. So I wanted it to be a furniture that I painted on or real poster, all of that, basically all of my art and all of the styles and everything I did was part of that show. 

And I was little. I was like, okay. So I think if people gravitate to the 3D, then we got a problem. 

Kathryn Finney 

But I think it's really interesting. Your art is so striking and you're represented by Agave Collective and everyone can find you at Roger Carter. You also dmm me because again, I'm a collector of it, so I will have no problem linking you. But I think what's so striking about your art, at least for me, I first was introduced to your art when I went to a open house. I was buying a house 

And the piece that I later bought this massive piece, I bought it before I even had house. Yes. I didn't even know what the house was going to be, but I was like, I had to have this piece and came in the door. It's an eight foot high, five foot wide piece of the Esquire magazine cover of Muhammad Ali, who is, he's not from Chicago, but lived here, lived in the south side, lived in Hyde Park, Kenwood, and what was incredible, right at his waist, and it got kind of closer. It's really striking, and it got closer and closer and right in his waist was this epic battle between the two dudes from X-Men. And I would see the two dudes, but I don't want to offend anybody who's a big X-Men person, but was it Magneto and Xavier? And what struck me about this piece was it was knowing a lot about Muhammad Ali and knowing that you have this great man who also had some internal struggles and that a lot of our heroes have this constant battle between good and evil, right? 

Absolutely. Internally and always trying to decide which way to go and these sort of internal battles. And I thought, well, this is really, it is very clever. I was like, this is very clever. And I just started my art collecting. I only had a couple pieces at that time, and so it was just as clever. I'd never seen anything like this before. And the three dimensional nature of it too, so it was almost like sculptural, but kind of like a painting with a sculpture. And I remember telling my friends, including my friend Darlene, about I got this piece and it's really interesting and I think you would, but this idea of incorporating that good and evil within our heroes, particularly in our community, especially now as we have a lot of our heroes who are being challenged that some of their more evil parts are coming to light and how do you balance that, right? Yeah. And then putting that into art and conveying that. 

Roger Carter 

Yeah. Well, I appreciate the clever part, but that's not what I was 

Kathryn Finney 

You are clever. Just take it. You're clever. I want to give it to you. Okay. Say thank you. I am thank 

Roger Carter 

For the cleverness, but there wasn't, I always say this, I don't want to be an artist who's weird, right? Or try to make you have people have different interpretations of your work. I don't to do that. So I do like that because that's exactly what I was going after. I 

Kathryn Finney 

Mean, it's clear. It's clear I think especially because the folks that you focus on are our icons and heroes in black communities. And oftentimes I think when you are a known person, I'm a public person. I'm not a famous person. I'm not that, but I'm a public person. I think there's a tendency to flatten you out. You just become flat. People only see one version of you. They don't see any other, they don't see the curvas, they don't see anything else other than this flat version. I think what's interesting about your art is it challenges the viewer to see the curvatures in these icons see more than the flat two dimensions. Other dimensions. 

Roger Carter 

Yeah. Because it can be in the gallery, and like I said, it can be with a bunch of other art. You're not going to see every piece in the gallery, right? You're going to walk right past it. But I know if it's positioned, I like to watch people look at the art. They walk right up to it 

Kathryn Finney 

Like, what is this? It's so interesting. And it begs discussion, I think. No, the piece I bought is actually too big to put in my current house, but I'm talking to one of the universities I attended about loaning it to them and putting it in the gallery, and it's Rutgers Newark because I think it fosters discussion that I think is really important right now. This whole idea of black heroes and the many dimensions, good and bad of black, good and bad, 

Roger Carter 

And especially the forefront, the older guys, like the Black Panthers and Muhammad Ali and the Malcolm X, Malcolm and even James Baldwin. Someone told me something, I will take credit for it, but he had a resurgence over the past couple of years and so forth. One of my most popular pieces is a James Baldwin. James Baldwin. 

Kathryn Finney 

Yeah. Oh, very much. That's one of your iconic pieces. Yeah. 

Roger Carter 

Well, I kind of like his books, so that's why I did it. People are like, well, who's James Baldwin? So then that sparks a conversation. Then once you read his material, you're like, oh, we're still doing this today. 

Kathryn Finney 

I mean, James Baldwin was ahead in many, many, many, many ways, was the documentary, I'm Not Your Average Negro, 

Roger Carter 

Not Your Negro. 

Kathryn Finney 

Yes. That's like his. And so to have discussions about these icons and your art to elicit discussions, I think it's really important. I think that's one of the things I love about art is that it good art, whatever that may mean, elicits discussion. Whatever the discussion may be, it elicits a reaction. It gets people to think. Maybe it gets people to think differently. Maybe it gets them to ask questions and explore. And I think your art does that really well. I want to know who James Baldwin is, who is this person? I'm seeing them and they're, okay, let me learn a little bit. Maybe I read one of his books. Those things. I think as an artist, it's just really a testament to the strength of your art that you can elicit these sort of discussions. 

Roger Carter 

And even as a person, even, I've had people, different cultures, they love to fight. They say, oh man, I love that. And if it's a Fred Hampton or a James Baldwin, they know that I'm speaking my truth. I'm not trying, I'm not code switching here, 

Kathryn Finney 

Right? It's what it is. You either you take it or you don't. Right. 

Roger Carter 

And I really like that response and being free and just doing my own thing. 

Kathryn Finney 

I think if you are true to who you are, it's very interesting. Remember something I had read, I forgot it's not Marianne Williamson, but it was someone who's like, when you are who you are and you're authentically you, whatever that may be, it gives permission for other people to be authentically them. It creates space for them to be that too. And you don't have to be a version of you. You don't even have to be the version that people think you need to be, just be you, be you. And the amount of space that creates for others. And so whether you, no matter your intentions and your artist is authentically you, so of course people are going to come and they're going to look at it and you're going to be authentically them. Even if culturally it's a different culture than theirs, you can relate to that. Who are the artists that really have influenced you? 

Roger Carter 

Wow. I would say probably Andy Warhol is probably because it was the pop art movement, 

Kathryn Finney 

The pop art, 

Roger Carter 

And it was so different, so rebellious and so many art forms kind of takes away from that. Especially things like graffiti, things like that. I know he did a lot of the famous icons, celebrities, mostly white celebrities. And for me, heroes, black and heroes are important. My father was my hero as well. It was a lot of political people as well. So 

Kathryn Finney 

The story, I can see the Warhol influence now. Yeah, I could definitely. Yeah, 

Roger Carter 

So he was one of the biggest ones. And a lot of my brother was an artist. He was a really good drawer. He didn't have a studio or anything like that. I used to watch him draw, and I said, I can draw that. I can do that as well. Yeah. But mostly I would say probably Andy, Andy Ol' is kind of where we were taken from and a lot of the pop arts movement. 

Kathryn Finney 

Yeah, I mean the pop arts movement, I think for a while there people kind of trashed it a little bit because it seemed very, some would say very derivative of, but I think now it's kind of, you see particularly in fashion, like the pop art movement and the influence it has had. 

Roger Carter 

That's a very good point because pop art graffiti kind of came from pop art, but when I was doing it, it wasn't, was frowned upon. Basically. I don't know if you know in Chicago, you can't buy spray paint in the 

Kathryn Finney 

Studio. Can't I learned that someone's trying to buy some gold spray paint? No. And they were like, you can't buy spray paint. 

Roger Carter 

It is actually a felony in Chicago. Because the thing about it, the graffiti started out with just the gang signs. The gangs used to write the gang signs on the garages and things like that. Then from New York City, it kind of evolved from this art form where it wasn't necessarily gang signs, it was just art put on that was accessible for people in the community. But then they outlawed it. So even today, I have to drive to the suburbs to get kids. So order 'em off of Amazon. 

Kathryn Finney 

That was crazy. I learned that. I know you have a documentary and you have a New Yorker feature that's coming and a bunch of other stuff. And so thank you so much. It's such a pleasure talking with you. This always talking art. Anyway, anytime and looking forward to seeing you more out there, and it's just been such a pleasure tracking. I see your pieces and I'm like, oh my gosh, I've had friends. I'm like, oh my goodness. Friends in other places, like yes, I have his piece too. And so it's been amazing to watch the trajectory and it just keeps going up. 

Roger Carter 

Oh wow. That's cool. Thank you. 

Kathryn Finney 

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on this journey through the world of creativity and innovation. Today's conversation with Roger Carter has been nothing short of inspiring from capturing the essence of cultural history in his works to defying convention. As a trailblazer in the arts, Roger has shown us the power of thinking differently. Thank you, Roger, for sharing your insight, wisdom, and artistic journey with us and to our listeners. Keep building the damn thing 

Kathryn Finney 

Thank you for joining us on Build a Damn Thing. Please take a moment to subscribe, share it with your friends, and don't forget to rate and review on your favorite podcast platform and always remember to build the damn thing.

 

Season 3, Episode 1: Centering Joy w/ Bevy Smith

In a world that often presents us with challenges and obstacles, Kathryn Finney invites you on a journey to explore the transformative power of centering joy as a fundamental value. 

In this episode, Kathryn and her guest Bevy Smith discuss the timeless theme of "Centering Joy" and the significance of finding joy, fostering positivity, and infusing every aspect of your life’s journey with happiness and fulfillment. Join us as we explore the universal pursuit of joy and the profound impact it can have on our lives.

Guest: Bevy Smith
https://www.bevysmith.com/

Instagram/Facebook/X:
@bevysmith

 

Episode 8: Sell The Damn Thing

 

When the time comes to transition away from your business, know that there is more out there for you.   It may be a new business or a new opportunity but whatever the case, as the saying goes change is good. In this the season finale of BTDT learn the upside to walking away and at the right time.

 

Guests:

Heather Hiles    |   Founder/ Entrepreneur

Cheryl Contee   |   Impact Seat 

Lisa Price   |   Carol’s Daughter 

Hafeezah Muhammad   |   You Me Healthcare 

Laura Weidman Powers   |   Base10 

 

________

 

Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

________

 

Credits:

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Prosper Digital TV

Post-Production Manager: Joanes Prosper

Post-Production Supervisor: Jason Pierre

Post-Production Sound Editor: Evan Joseph

Co-Music Supervisors: Jason Pierre and Darlene Gillard Jones

Show Music: provided by Prosper Digital TV

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Full Transcript:

Kathryn Finney
When the time comes to transition away from your business, know that there is more out there for you. It may be a new business or a new opportunity, but whatever the case as a saying goes, changes good in this the season two finale of build a damn thing. Learn the upside to walking away at the right time. 

Selling a company often is an art rather than a science. And there's a difference between you wanting to sell your company and someone wanting to buy your company, meaning you might have a lot of offers to buy you versus you deciding yourself, I wanna sell. One of the things is if someone is approaching you to buy you, you have the upper hand versus you wanting to sell. You don't have the upper hand per se. So that's really important to note. If you have someone wanting to buy you in your interest in eventually selling at some point, you want to really think about that. 

Cheryl Contee
It's ideal if you can have multiple companies bidding for you, that tends to drive up the price, such as for WhatsApp, which I think sold for like a billion, more than like 19 billion, some crazy amount. But that was because a whole bunch of different communications companies and software networks were bidding for it. So ideally, you have done your research on the market, you have a sense of how your product would fit within the types of corporations that could, that have enough resources to purchase you. And another fundamental thing that if you're a corporation looking to acquire, it's a build or buy decision. 

I'm Cheryl Contee, chief Innovation Officer at the Impact seat and chair and founder at Dub. Big Things today. I sold my company attentively in 2016 to Black Bob. They have decide is it cheaper? Is it going to be cheaper and faster to build it internally? 

Do we have that expertise? Or more likely is innovation slow within this giant slow moving company? Will it be cheaper and faster just to acquire this technology and integrate it into our product offering? So you want to make sure as you are designing your exit, that you're making a really good case for build versus buy, right? Why buy you? Why is it going to be hard for them to build? And I think we made a compelling case to Blackboard for why it would be very difficult for them to build it, given the relationships and the expertise that we had put into our product. 

Kathryn Finney
So with the budget fashionista, we had offers to buy us very early, particularly around the 2008, 2009. Many of us remember that was the great recession, the great crash. And so we had a lot of people wanting to buy us. I wasn't ready to sell per se because I was in the middle of doing television and I thought if I sold it, I wouldn't be able to do tv. Now, fast forward, you know, 14 years later, I know that's not the truth. Unfortunately for me, at that time, there were no black woman that I had known of who had sold tech company. There was just none. There was no black woman who had sold a media company at that point. So there was very few people I could turn to. There was no information, there was no mentorship, there was no one for me to turn to, to, to ask for guidance. 

It's very different now, but at that point, there really wasn't. And, and I think if I would've had that mentorship, I would've sold earlier. And because there was so much heat and interest in what we were doing, I would've sold for a significantly larger amount of money than I eventually sold it for. And I sold it for good money, but it, it would've been, it was a larger amount of money, but I did not know that I could do sort of both at the same time. So before you sell, when you get an offer to buy, I always suggest reach out to people in your industry who have done it. And they might not be people of color, they may not be women, and most people who have sold will be very open to talking with you about like what did they sell? Um, maybe sharing the price in which they sold for, and if they won't share it, ask them like, here's what someone's offering me for it. Do you think that's a fair price? Most will tell you whether or not , they think it's a fair price or not. But really reaching out to people who know that is so important 

Cheryl Contee
When you're exiting, I think it's important to have a game plan and to have a design. What's your walkaway point? What's a deal that you would just say, Hey, you know what, that's not even enough money. I'd rather this thing burn to the ground than take that. Like it's not, it's not enough. What is your goal? Do you just want to pay back investors ideal it at some kind of multiple and arrange some kind of great entry? Most of the time you are looking at an acquisition and your team is going to be slotted somewhere within a large corporation. How high are you the entrepreneur within that organization? Where does your team live? What's going to be the trajectory of your software in the roadmap of them? How much authority are you going to have going forward besides no salary, stock options, bonuses, et cetera. So I do think it's really important to be thinking about how you're going to exit with whom you're going to exit. Again, do you vibe with those people? It's not just about the money. The money is important, but is there a cultural fit? Do you share the same values? And that's important again, because you are getting married basically to this other company, you wanna make sure your new spouse is on the same page with you on a number of different fronts. Otherwise there's friction ahead for sure. You don't wanna just chase the dollars. 

Kathryn Finney
Another thing I would say is also making sure that you have attorneys who understand merger and acquisitions. Um, especially if you're gonna have what is called an earn out, which is simply you work for the company that buys your company for a certain amount of months or years, mostly to ensure that revenue is consistent and that staffing stays on or to help transition new staff or what have you. If you have that, you need to make sure the terms are very, very tight. Um, so having a lawyer who understands acquisitions I cannot stress is super important. You cannot just have your normal personal attorney do that. They're going to miss some things. They're not gonna know the details, they're not gonna know the sort of fine and print that you need to know, um, and some of the opportunities and things that you can add onto that. So I would really, really suggest that if you're looking at selling, 

Cheryl Contee
When you're exiting, I think it's important to have a game plan and to have a design. What's your walkaway point? What's a deal that you would just say, Hey, you know what, that's not even enough money. I'd rather this thing burn to the ground than take that. Like it's not, it's not enough. What is your goal? Do you just want to pay back investors ideal it at some kind of multiple and arrange some kind of great entry? Most of the time you are looking at an acquisition and your team is going to be slotted somewhere within a large corporation. How high are you the entrepreneur within that organization? Where does your team live? What's going to be the trajectory of your software in the roadmap of them? How much authority are you going to have going forward besides no salary, stock options, bonuses, et cetera. So I do think it's really important to be thinking about how you're going to exit with whom you're going to exit. Again, do you vibe with those people? It's not just about the money. The money is important, but is there a cultural fit? Do you share the same values? And that's important again, because you are getting married basically to this other company, you wanna make sure your new spouse is on the same page with you on a number of different fronts. Otherwise there's friction ahead for sure. You don't wanna just chase the dollars. 

Kathryn Finney
Another thing I would say is also making sure that you have attorneys who understand merger and acquisitions. Um, especially if you're gonna have what is called an earn out, which is simply you work for the company that buys your company for a certain amount of months or years, mostly to ensure that revenue is consistent and that staffing stays on or to help transition new staff or what have you. If you have that, you need to make sure the terms are very, very tight. Um, so having a lawyer who understands acquisitions I cannot stress is super important. You cannot just have your normal personal attorney do that. They're going to miss some things. They're not gonna know the details, they're not gonna know the sort of fine and print that you need to know, um, and some of the opportunities and things that you can add onto that. So I would really, really suggest that if you're looking at selling, 

Lisa Price
One of the things about Carol's daughter that is interesting to some people is the fact that we went through an acquisition, myself and the investors who were in the brand at the time, we sold the company to L'Oreal. And that was something that a lot of people, particularly people in the black community who were, who were my customers, didn't understand why I did that. The assumption is, is that once you are acquired, you are no longer a voice within your brand. You're no longer present. Um, there was concern that it would no longer be products that were made for us. So I realized when I got backlash for selling to L'Oreal that one of the things that I needed to do with the rest of my, you know, business career is to educate people, particularly people that look like me, that that's okay. It's okay to be acquired by a larger company. 

And I, I was just at an event on Monday night and someone at that event said that they look forward to the day when there are black conglomerates like L'Oreal, so that when black entrepreneurs sell, they can sell to a conglomerate. And that when she said it, I remember just sitting there and closing my eyes and thinking, oh my God, what would that feel like? What would that feel like to be part of that acquisition? And that is the future. But until we get to that point, we're gonna have to be comfortable with more people choosing to sell because it's how you build wealth. 

I am Lisa Price, the founder of Carol's daughter. 

I think acquisitions can look different for different people. You know, I'm still involved with my brand when I finish this. I'm recording the Thanksgiving message for our Instagram, you know, for the company. I wrote the email that's gonna go out on Thanksgiving. I prepare a holiday gift every year for my staff. I write education manuals. I write, uh, holiday gift guides. I still create product. So it, it is still that labor of love that I do every day. It just looks a little bit different. So because you are acquired doesn't mean that you have to exit. At some point I will exit because I don't wanna work for the rest of my life and, and I want to pursue other things and travel and, you know, enjoy my life. Um, but that time isn't here yet. Uh, when I exit, I'll let you know what that looks like, but I have definitely been around people who were acquired and three weeks later they were out the door , you know, so ev everyone's path is gonna be different. Eight years later, I'm still with my brand. So that was my story. 

Kathryn Finney
I think too, you know, really having an idea of what you wanna get out of the sale and how much money you wanna get, that's realistic. And this is what comes from, again, talking to people who sold before, even if they're not like directly selling the same type of product or company that you're selling, I think it's really helpful to talk with them to get a benchmark so that you're not underselling yourself or overselling yourself. Like people I sell for a billion dollars, I'm like, well, okay, so who else in your space has sold it for a billion dollars? Like, what's the benchmark for a billion dollars? What do those companies look like? And does your company match in terms of revenue, in terms of customers? Like real basic sort of things so that your own expectations are realistic. Um, and then two, as people of color, you know, making sure you have a good personal finance person to help guide you and a good banking is really, really important as well. 

Um, so that you know what to do with the money because how you sell it and, and the way you sell it can also impact you in terms of taxation. So your regular, you know, personal finance person may not have any idea what to do when you're selling a certain amount. And usually if you're selling your company for more than 10 million, that kicks you into, um, high net worth territory. Um, and so you get different services, you get a personal banker. Um, and I can't tell you, there's nothing like having a personal banker and somebody, you get this bloop, bloop, you know, like, Hey, I got yesterday, can you help me out? You know, like, and, and so, but you don't know that. And we are not taught that as people of color that there are these services available because most of us have never even thought of that. There's nobody in my family that has ever had a pr a private banker. I am literally the first person who's ever had that. I would say like, uh, my entire extended family, I don't think anyone has ever had that or knew any. I didn't know about that until someone told me about that and that we could get that because of the amount of, you know, money and things like that. 

Hafeezah Muhammad
I started off early at, um, Verizon in 2004 and I saw that how the company was built from like a, a kind of more like a startup on steroids because they were like a 1 billion revenue company and when I left it was a hundred billion revenue company. So being able to see that the processes and tools they put into place to be able to get to that level, I was able to see that this is possible for you, me, healthcare, that I can start small, but then I can get there. 

I am Hafeezah Muhammad, the c e o of yume Healthcare. 

And why not be able to have a vision for those that follow me to let them know that it is possible. Like how many people I know, I'm originally from St. Thomas Virgin Islands. How many people I know that have like build a company that's skilled it to be a national company? And I definitely wanna make sure that I can be able to be an example for those that come after me. My mom and my dad were entrepreneurs, but they definitely had struggles in, in life, but they've always stood their ground. And one thing that they pushed into me was that you can become whoever you want and you shouldn't be limitless. If you decide you wanna do something, you go big or you go home. 

-Commercial Break-

Kathryn Finney
There's a chapter in the book where I talk about this is that Digital divided was really six years too early. That was really our problem. But without you doing that initial work, there would've been no possibilities without Project Diane, which we got $0 for, which was like me and 12 Ukrainian data collectors doing the very first project, Diane, there would, there would be none of the progress. I mean there, there really wouldn't be. I don't think we would would've seen substantial investments in black entrepreneurs. If I'm gonna be the VBC community, I think point blank. And I don't think anybody in the space would say otherwise that project Diane didn't have this like, massive impact in that sort of way or that digital divided and what we did show the path. But then when, when I was ready to leave, I left, um, and it was really propelled to leave by, uh, someone in the organization. 

I was close to leaving, um, two people and I was like, I, they're leaving not because they were mad at me or anything, they were done with sort of the space. And I realized, yeah, I'm really done with the space too. . I was like, they, I actually used, they gave me the key to leave. I was like, I don't wanna build this with, these are people I've spent so much time with for the past six months and some longer. And they were done. And I was like, you know what? I don't wanna build this with somebody else. This is like, I'm, I'm gone too. And it was like nothing anyone could stay to make me stay. Like, and it had nothing to do with the organization or really it was more so I was done and I was done being a martyr and I wanted to do something different. 

Heather Hiles
Oftentimes the reason that companies are looking to acquire other companies is because it provides the most cost efficient means to growth. You're either acquiring a combination of great talent, um, in those companies and customers and revenue stream and maybe some brilliant technology that you need. The company that bought Pathright Cengage Learning was the strategic investor into Pathright at the time. And we were solving a lot of needs for that company. I actually had the intention of growing Path Bright from serving the college university market and serving the enterprise sector and wanted to raise a series B round in order to serve that market properly. But Cengage was very passionate about acquiring Path Bright and uh, and actually it became really hard for me to get the space and to be able to raise more venture capital rather than selling to them. And I wish I didn't have to sell it, but my investors were really excited for having the exit and having the outcome that we got. 

My name is Heather Hiles. I founded Path Bright in 2012 and sold that company the end of 2015 to Sendage Learning. 

And so what became most important to me was to make sure that I could get the best outcome for all of my teammates. And when you're looking at a hundred people who all have mortgages or rent to pay and families to feed, that becomes a really important obligation I think of any c e o. So, like I said, while I wish I could have gone on, I wasn't willing to fight everything and jeopardize my limited control and limited control over the outcomes for no control over the outcomes. 

Kathryn Finney
So I learned a lot of lessons. I mean, in hindsight, the lessons I learned one about you don't need to be a martyr, like stop being a martyr. Like stop taking everything that happens is not your fault. Um, let people own their own shit and their own actions. You don't have to assume that for people, even if that's what they want you to do, you don't have to assume it. Um, these are all things that I had to learn and I, and I've learned and big lessons I took from that. And it makes me happy to see how well the organization is doing. Um, post Me, like anyone who ever builds something, you don't build it for it to end when you end. I build institutions, I build things that are gonna last. I'm not interested in building something and then I decide to do something else and then it collapses. That is not of interest to me. 

Laura Weidman Powers
So I made the decision to step down as c e o of code 2040 in late 2017 and I formally stepped down the following spring. It was a really difficult decision because it was the organization at that point. I spent six years building it, it meant a ton to me and I saw such huge potential. But I knew that I had started Code 2040 not to create a home for myself, but to create change and something that would outlast me. And that it was really important for the organization to go through a leadership transition to sort of ensure that it could weather that kind of change and survive and even thrive. 

My name is Laura Weidman Powers. I am the head of impact at Echoing Green and the operating partner at phase 10, uh, venture firm in San Francisco. 

To be honest, I was burnt out at that point. 

I mean, doing racial equity work is tough. Doing it in an environment where the first few years of Code 2040, we we're trying to convince people that it mattered and then trying to absorb all the interests when folks started to buy into the fact that it did. And so I was really thrilled that I had a successor. So I felt I could take the organization to the next level and it gave me a chance to kind of take a step back, take a break, and then keep doing the same sort of work, but from a different, a different vantage point. 

Kathryn Finney
I think the reaction as a black woman for you to say, I'm doing something for myself cuz I don't wanna do it. I don't care what you want me to do, I don't wanna do this. It is shocking for people saying no as a sentence. Not no, no, how dare I do that? How dare I do that? And it was just experiencing that. But what I did was I, I left everything I left did with nothing. I didn't get any money, I didn't have severance, I didn't have anything. I just left. And I was like, you know, I could take six months off because the thing that people didn't realize is Bec cuz they didn't know my whole story is that I sold my company and I have my own money. 

Lisa Price
Starting a company in your kitchen in Brooklyn with a hundred dollars and then selling your company to the largest beauty company in the world is an amazing feat and took so much work and 22 years of building to get to that point where actually good enough for that to happen. That was another misconception that people would have. There was this assumption that you're struggling, you're not making money, everything's falling apart. So, oh, let me go get this check and I'm just gonna sell to them cuz I've, I've gotta get out of it. I can't do it anymore. And acquisitions don't work that way. Things have to be humming. It has to look good. It's, this is not like somebody buying a house and then they're gonna flip it. It it's not like that. So I was profoundly proud of myself for being in a position where I could do that. 

Not just for me, but also for my family and also for my staff because when, when we became a part of L'Oreal, the entire staff went with me. So no one was losing their jobs and they were moving into a company that could give them even more than I could when it came to benefits and opportunities and things like that. And there are people who become serial entrepreneurs, they start something, they sell it, they turn around, they start something else, they sell it, and they just keep going. I don't know that I'm a serial entrepreneur. I started when I was, you know, 31. Um, I've, I'm still a part of my company now at 60. Uh, I might do something after this, but I don't know, you know, that I, I would call myself a serial entrepreneur to see the organization succeed and grow and 

Kathryn Finney
Get to the next level. Um, it's exciting for me and I, and it's, and it's exciting to see that and to know that, like, I built that like, and then the next person's coming on and they're building it, you know, it's like I built the bungalow and somebody's turning in a two family, you know, two story family colonial, right? Like, hey, they're taking, but I built the foundation, I built the first floor, I built the, you know, landscape, the backyard, all of that. And here's this person coming in, they're gonna build a second floor, they're gonna build, you know, the two car garage. Like, and so, and at a pool, 

What I hope that people take away from this is that you can actually build a damn thing and that you can do it, it may be a little bit different, the path may be different from us, but there is a way to do it and there's a way to do it while still maintaining who you are that still maintains your core values and what you believe in. And I think that's really, really important. Having been in a startup community for a while, there's this belief that you have to be, you know, excuse my language, an asshole or you have to be this sort of type of person in order to be successful in this space. And I don't believe that at all. I think you can be brilliant at your work, but you can also be a good person too. And so what I'm hoping that people take away from this is not only the details of building your personal advisory board, how to raise money and things like that, but how to do it while also maintaining your own integrity and your own core values.

Episode 7: How To Get the Money You Need to Grow Your Company

 

From bootstrapping to venture capital to just plain profits, there are many ways to fund the growth of your business and it’s an important next step that takes thoughtful consideration.  In this episode of Build The Damn Thing, you’ll determine what may be the best route for you and your company as you continue to build it. 

 

Guests:

Lisa Price    |    Carol’s Daughter 

Brian Aoaeh    |    reFashiond Ventures 

Felecia Hatcher    |    Black Ambition 

Denise Hamilton    |    Watch Her Work 

Cheryl Contee    |    Impact Seat 

Denitria Lewis    |    Serial Entrepreneur/ Digital Marketer 

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Stay Connected!  

Kathryn Finney

Website: https://www.kathrynfinney.com/ 

Twitter: @KathrynFinney

Instagram: @hiiamkathryn

Facebook: Kathryn Finney

 

Genius Guild

Website: https://GeniusGuild.co

Twitter: @GeniusGuild

Instagram: @geniusguild

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/genius-guild

 

Subscribe to our podcast + download each episode on Google Podcasts, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

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Credits:

Produced by Genius Guild Content Studios

Executive Producers:  Kathryn Finney and Darlene Gillard Jones

Post-Production Company: Prosper Digital TV

Post-Production Manager: Joanes Prosper

Post-Production Supervisor: Jason Pierre

Post-Production Sound Editor: Evan Joseph

Co-Music Supervisors: Jason Pierre and Darlene Gillard Jones

Show Music: provided by Prosper Digital TV

Main Show Theme Music: "Self Motivated" Written & Performed by Tamara Bubble

 

Full Transcript

 

Lisa Price (00:01):
When I started my business, I didn't actually realize when I was starting it that I was starting a business. Initially. It was something that I was doing, it was a hobby. And I didn't need funding, if you will, for many years. Now I say need with air quotes because technically I did need money, but because I didn't look at what I was doing as a business, but I was looking at it as a hustle, the thing that I did after work and on the weekends. And as long as I could get the work done with my husband helping me with an aunt helping me, or a cousin helping me, it didn't feel formal. It didn't feel like a company early on, I didn't think about funding honestly, until 2001. And that was because my husband and I got a warehouse because we were making everything in our home and we needed more room and thought, oh, we'll get a warehouse space and we can set up a kitchen in the warehouse space and then do the shipping from the warehouse space and everything will just run smoothly cuz it'll be bigger and there'll be more room, and had no clue about the different types of insurance and manufacturing properties and commercial properties and all of these other things that we learned as we went along. 

So doing construction on this warehouse kitchen was a lot more complex than we thought it would be, and we needed some money to make that happen. 

Kathryn Finney (01:40):
From bootstrapping to venture capital to just plain profits, there are many ways to fund the growth of your business, and it's an important next step that takes thoughtful consideration in this episode to build a damn thing. You determine what's the best way for you to fund your company. 

Some ways that builders can get money to grow their companies is really, um, there's a lot of different opportunities now, and it really depends on whether you're building a startup or a small business. And again, a startup is a temporary organization that you're looking to scale to reach some sort of exit positive event. Meaning you're looking at selling it to a larger company or listing it on initial public offering, or somehow letting go of equity in that company That's a startup. If you say you're building a startup, make sure you're doing that. A small business doesn't necessarily, uh, mean that you're building it to sell. You might wanna keep it, it may be that legacy company that you're gonna keep in your family and that changes what type of money you look for. A venture capitalist is going to wanna invest in a startup, and there are structural reasons why a venture capitalist is gonna wanna invest in a startup. It's not because they don't believe in your business, it's because I need you to sell. So I get the money 

Back I invested. And then some, 

Brian Aoaeh (03:02):
I think the question about whether you should raise from a VC or bootstrap is not necessarily known at every point in time before you, um, have figures, uh, some things out. So at the outset, it's usually difficult to tell if the business that you're building, um, if the problem that you're solving, if the customer base is the kind of customer base that lends itself to, to what a VC wants to invest in. So a, as a general rule of thumb, uh, some VCs will say, look, if we can't, if we can't see how your company or your startup gets to the point where it's making a hundred million of revenues a year, it's probably not a venture backable, uh, business. 

My name is Brian Long Aoaeh. I am a co-founder and general partner of Refashion Ventures and I am the co-founder of the Worldwide Supply Chain Federation. So people can debate if that's the right way to think about it or not. But, but as a general rule of thumb, if a startup founder can, can't see how what they're doing gets to the point where it becomes a big company and it's throwing off those sorts of re of revenues, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to talk to venture, uh, capitalists. 

Kathryn Finney (04:33):
Now, as an investor, as a venture capitalist myself, I think what a lot of people don't realize, particularly in the black community, uh, is how venture capital works. Um, venture capital really works along this thing called power law, which is really basically that of the 10 companies that they invest in, um, one is gonna be the unicorn, two are gonna be okay, and the unicorn means over a billion dollars and the rest of them are gonna be duds. And so there's a lot of pressure when you take venture capital to scale rapidly so that you could be that unicorn so that you can get to a billion dollars. And the only way you can get to a billion dollars is if you get massive, right? The only way you can get to a billion dollars is if you become the next Google or Facebook or WhatsApp. 

And so it's a lot of pressure as a founder to get that when having a hundred million dollar company would be also great too, right? It would be amazing. But that wouldn't be amazing from a venture capitalist because they need you to re what is called return the fund. They need you to be that once that they make sure that they return capital back to their investors. The investors in venture capital is called limited partners. These are people who are investors in the fund. So when I was at the budget fashionista, I was like, I don't want that pressure. I don't wanna have to try to figure out how I'm gonna make the budget fashionist into a unicorn billion dollar company. I don't wanna be known as the budget fashionista for the rest of my life. 

Felicia Hatcher (06:07):
I think that's the question that the individual companies need to be asking of themselves. Do I need to fundraise? Because a a lot of times you don't. Right? And I think what has been, um, really interesting in this race, in the startup community, uh, is that the only way that you can have a validated company or an idea is how much money you can raise as opposed to how much revenue you can create, um, and keep your business whole, right? And so I think as organizations that support entrepreneurs that more and more of us should be asking that question, um, instead of taking people all down this journey, which is not necessarily a good fit, right? And like you have a lot of small businesses that happen to play really well in the, in the startup space, right? And you have a lot of people that are start that think they're startups that sh that are more long small businesses and it's okay to have that slow sustainable growth. 

My name is Felicia Hatcher and I am the CEO of Black Ambition and the co-founder of the Center for Black Innovation. 

As long as you have an understanding of what your end goal actually is, but, um, I think if you're not careful, you end up spinning your wheel in an area that actually doesn't make sense for the business model that you have or the long term sustainability of who you are and what you're trying to create, create. Uh, so being very clear on that in the very beginning is important. 

Kathryn Finney (07:31):
So when you hear VCs saying that we need you to scale and press you to scale, that's why, it's also why when people come and say, Hey, I want my company has a million dollars, I can grow to a million dollars. A VC is like, oh, okay, that's cute, but I'm not gonna be able to invest. And it's very important because I feel like particularly in communities of color, we don't understand that Now in building a small business where you are going to keep it for a while, there's other funding options you can to get started. There's grants. So there's a lot of grants, especially with the Build Back Better program that's going on now, the legislation that passed a lot of grants to help small businesses grow, and you can check with your local small business administration, you can also look online. Um, there's also microlending platforms like a c um, even cabbage that give business money to small businesses. PayPal even has a version of a loan program that you can get that gives sort of consistent interest rates. Um, that's very good for a small business because you don't wanna necessarily sell equity in your company. It's also good for startups that don't wanna sell equity in their companies, but they have consistent revenues that allow them to pay back the loan. 

Lisa Price (08:46):
So the first time that I got funding, I, it was a small business loan through, um, my bank and it was 125,000 $150,000, which to me at that time was like, I took out a loan for 1.5 million and I was panicked and nervous. Um, but it, it, it all went well. It was a great experience, it was a good thing, um, that I did do that when it came to actual funding and having an investor invest in the brand. That was something where I was sitting here cause my office was in this room and I was sitting here and I listed all of the things that I had been able to do without very much assistance from the outside. 

I am Lisa Price, the founder of Carol's daughter, 

And there were more things that I needed to do for the brand. I needed to upgrade our phone system. I needed to have new labels designed for the products, and I needed to do some upgrades to the website. All of those things had their own price tags attached to them. It was easily 350 to $400,000, which I couldn't afford. I didn't have that sitting around. I couldn't borrow that much. I couldn't put it on a credit card. And I ended up doing the phone system because I was able to finance that and the other things I just had to make do with what I had. But it was in that moment that I kind of realized I think I've done all that I can on my own and organically, and if this is really going to survive, I need money from someplace else. But I didn't know what that looked like and I didn't know what it meant for the company or anything. 

Kathryn Finney (10:46):
So when I started the Budget Fashionista there, there were no options for venture capital for what I was doing. Um, so I didn't raise anything for the Bud Fashionist. And it was actually towards the end when I start to think about where I was gonna go next, that I had this choice between either venture capital or private equity or just selling it. And I took some meetings. This was in, um, 2000 and like 12, 2013. I took some initial meetings with, uh, a number of private equity funds, um, as well as a couple of VCs. And what I realized that in order for me to stay, uh, in, in order for me to take this money, if I took it, the expectation would be that I had to stay. In fact, I would've had to sign a contract that said I would have to stay for two to three years. 

Denise Hamilton (11:40):
My journey of raising money for my company was really challenging. Um, there was a lot of resistance. I'm in Houston, Texas, so definitely not in a hotbed of investment in startups. Um, and, um, there was a lot of resistance to me as an older founder. Uh, lots of challenges there. Um, but, but I decided, you know, I'm just gonna fund this myself. And I gotta tell you, I'm so glad that that's how it ended up because I know, um, I own everything. I own all of it, it's all mine. 

I'm Denise Hamilton and I'm c e o of watch her work. 

So, you know, if I had to do it all over again, I think that's how I probably would've started out. I actually felt like I wasted a lot of time, um, looking for investments instead of just self-funding it and seeing where it, where it built. And there were so many lessons I learned along the way that helped me to refine my message and to refine my positioning and, um, to now have built a thriving business. Um, you know, and know that I did it brick by brick all by myself is really, it's, I'm very, I'm really proud of that. 

Kathryn Finney (13:08):
My philosophy in VC may be very different than others, which is venture capital is really fuel. Think of it as fuel. It's, it's not starter, it's not the kindling, it's not the thing that you start the fire with. It's the thing that grows it. And if you think in that way, then it makes it easier to understand. Um, it makes it easier to know how to navigate the VC relationship because if VCs are looking for you to do rapid growth and you only take venture when you're at the point where you wanna do rapid growth and that works really, really well, you'll often find like a lot of venture capitalists trying to get in early with people, meaning, so that they can have a bigger chunk of your company. And there's a whole bunch of different things that are put towards, uh, black founders. There's a whole bunch of different things that are put towards black, uh, investors like myself, I'm a general partner and the Greenhouse Fund, which is genius skills, fun. And the number of crazy things that people have presented to me is, is crazy. 

Felecia Hatcher (14:09):
I think, you know, all of us as as black women have our horror stories or we have our chapters of our lives around this investment space that we don't read out loud, right? Because it's just so heartbreaking to put your heart into what you're building, um, whether that's on the for-profit or non-profit side, and for people to tear holes in it or to understand that there's just true, true bias, um, that should not exist, right? If we are all on the same page about green, right? Having something where someone can get a return on investment and knowing that you could be a good steward of that, but you can't even get to that part of the conversation because they don't think that you're a fit because of the color of your skin or what they pr uh, assume, um, is not a worthy investment or a smart investment. 

I think between the nos, um, between just the sheer crazy ass comments that you get from people and have to sit there sometimes and grin and bear it, bear it till you get to the point where you're like, I don't have to sit here. Um, and you are the one that's missing out on, on, on this opportunity as opposed to the other way around. And so, um, but yeah, I've had crazy experiences. I've had, uh, founder, you know, investors say things to me that I know for a fact they would never say to my husband. Um, right? So not just the racial bias, but the gender bias that that has existed as, as well. 

Kathryn Finney (15:32):
One of the craziest things that was presented to me as the GP at Greenhouse Fund was a major institutional investor. Um, one of the biggest ones who we really wanted to have as an investor in our fund was going to put a million dollars in our fund and be the lead investor. And this was right at the beginning of our fund. Um, when you're creating a venture fund, getting a lead investor is one of the hardest things you want. And that, and this is the lead investor is the first person to write a sizable track. So we were so excited at conversations we're going back and forth and the the VC said, okay, this is really great. Um, so here's what we wanna do. We want a long-term relationship with you. Now, this is the trigger for me because in venture capital, most venture funds are in existence for seven to 10 years. 

So I'm like, I don't know how much longer relationship you wanna have other than seven to 10 years. But then said, well, we want a deeper relationship. I'm like, well, what do you mean by deeper? And what we found out is that not only do they wanna be an investor in the fund, but they also wanted to own part of what is called the general partnership. Venture capital funds are actually many different companies that comprise the fund. You have the limited partnership. These are the people who are actually investing the money that you're going to invest in other companies. You have the general partnership, they're the people who actually manage the investments. And it is the general partnership of the venture fund that then manages all of these companies, aka called the portfolio. So you, the limited partnership for all the money for that's gonna be invested is at, is one company. The general partnership, the people who manage the investment is another company. And so what this institutional investor was asking and wanting was a part of the general partnership, and that made no sense to me. 

Cheryl Contee(17:37):
We saw people in our space getting funded and we started reaching out to investors in our network. And I would say it probably took 50. I figured out very quickly that I was going to have to knock on a lot of doors because even though I had built a multimillion dollar revenue business, even though I had some micro celebrity through my blog, my media appearances, even though I had a a great network, people weren't taking me seriously as someone who could create a startup. I, I remember literally sitting in front of an investor who was representing a fund whose specific mission is to fund people like me. And after I showed him a demo of the product and how it worked, he said, well, I can see how this is really important and that there's a market for this, but I don't know if you are the person who can actually bring this to market and bring this to fruition. Yeah, he said that to my face. 

I'm Cheryl Contee, chief Innovation Officer at the Impact seat and chair and founder at Dub Things Today. I sold my company attentively in 2016 to Black Bob. 

So there was a lot of that. There was a lot of unanswered phone calls, emails that went unanswered, crawling on my belly, begging for meetings. But finally I ended up sitting on a park bench with, uh, the person who had become our lead investor for two hours. We sat on park bench and just talked about our lives, you know, talked about our dreams, my dreams for the business and, and what it could do, his dreams for what his investments could create in the world. And, you know, that started a wonderful adventure. 

Kathryn Finney (19:20):
There's crowdfunding and equity crowdfunding, which I think is a really interesting phenomena where you sell ownership in your company to the crowd, um, to, to your potential customers, to the larger community. Um, and there's platforms like Republic and others that are really, really good at that. And it's very different than, um, like a GoFundMe where you're basically asking for charity with the equity platforms. You are selling for all purposes. Equity stop in your company to um, your community. And that can be an excellent way to get money for your company and can also be an excellent way to build your community because now people are invested in your success and that becomes very, very important. They're investing your success because the bigger you get is the opportunity for them to get a return as well. 

Felecia Hatcher (20:16):
I think more organizations or people or mentors that support founders should be asking them, should you be fundraising? Are there alternative sources to capital? Cuz there are a lot that doesn't require you to play that game and allows you to be focused a little bit more on the growth of what you're trying to build and the impact that you're ultimately trying to have. 

Kathryn Finney(20:40):
So we talk a lot about raising the money, but we don't talk a lot about what happens after you get it right. Say you have a successful raise, um, you have all this investment in things like one of the things I see that happens is a lack of like real basic financial management, um, not learning how to read a balance sheet, not even learning what a p and l is, the number of companies that are not using QuickBooks or some sort of spreadsheet management of their bank accounts. And I'm like, well, how do you know what you're spending as an investor? If I was asked you to send me a report you couldn't, like, you don't even know what it is that you have coming in and what's coming out on a regular basis. And so those are the sort of mistakes I see once people receive the money is that they don't have financial systems set up on the back end to be able to really manage. 

They don't have an accountant and you need an accountant who knows how to work with venture backed companies who know how to work with scalable, fast moving high growth companies. That is a different type of accounting. Another is mistaken the money that they get for investment in their business as personal money and it's not, um, I, the number of startups I've met who don't have separate business accounts for their businesses, um, and that it's all tied into personal is pretty amazing. People end up misappropriating funds and things like that because they're not keeping things very, very separate. And I can tell you that has been the downfall for many, many A C E O. 

Denitria Lewis (22:30):
Is there something that I would've loved to known before I started my business? Yeah, I would've loved to known like how critically important it was to set yourself up Well operationally, um, lots of individuals go from their businesses being either a hobby or something they're doing as a side hustle or something they just happen to be really good at and they have decided to strike out and make it a business. You might file Lll c paperwork, you may not, you might file an S-corp, you may not. You. All of those steps are things that you need an expert to walk you through. So whether that's the small business administration or organizations that are focused on helping businesses go to scale, you need to seek out that knowledge, um, because it's going to be critically important when it comes time to file documentation, file taxes, file all of these different things that are ultimately going to mean some type of financial payout to the government. 

I'm Denitria Lewis. I am a serial entrepreneur and digital marketer, 

So I would definitely tell any new entrepreneur, do not skimp on, um, really just immersing yourself in what you need to know operationally, even if you are not the individual to execute those things. Know what is necessary, know what is needed so that you can make sure that all of your ducks are in the row. Because when the year ends and you're trying to recap all of this data, you're gonna wanna know that you are protected because you filed the appropriate paperwork. 

Kathryn Finney  (24:19):
All founders should take the time to ask themselves whether or not it makes sense to fundraise. Not every company is venture backable and not all money is good money. And even those companies that are investible may have better success Focusing on revenue before looking to raise capital. There are many different ways in which you can scale your business and figuring out the best financial plan for you and your company is what will take you to the next level. 

For many entrepreneurs, the idea of letting go of their babies is hard to fathom. But with foresight and some planning, letting go can be easier than you think. On the next and final episode of season two of Build a Damn Thing, hear how I and others stepped away from a thriving and sometimes failing business and seamlessly moved on to the next.