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    Storytelling with Nancy Duarte: How to craft compelling presentations and tell a story that sticks

    enJune 01, 2023

    Podcast Summary

    • Effective presentation skills for any situation and improving relationships.Simple communication frameworks like contrast can be used in any format to persuade and influence others. Getting to know your audience and using tools like Microsoft Clarity can improve relationships and create better products.

      Effective presentation skills are not only essential for big stage talks and scripted presentations, but also crucial in any moments of influence, such as meetings or phone calls. Simple frameworks like contrast can be used to persuade and influence others in any format, making it a valuable tool in communication. Nancy Duarte, the bestselling author and CEO of Duarte Incorporated, shares a wealth of tactical advice to improve presentation skills, tell better stories, and reduce nerves. Communication frameworks like contrast can even improve relationship dynamics. It is important to get to know your audience to create better products, and Microsoft Clarity provides a free, easy-to-use tool that can help you capture how real people use your website.

    • Nancy Duarte's collaboration with Al Gore on the creation of Inconvenient TruthCollaborating with experts can lead to impactful and successful results, even if initial skepticism exists. Credit and acknowledgement should be given to all parties involved in the creation process.

      Nancy Duarte worked with Al Gore for five years to create his Inconvenient Truth presentation, which became an impactful data story that largely influenced the climate change movement. Gore traveled for five years, seeding the ground for a groundswell and creating a desire. Duarte's team proposed visualisation strategies, and Gore often adopted them thoughtfully. Gore gave credit to Duarte's team, thanking them and mentioning their name on the last slide of his presentation, and was generous enough to pay the consulting team in mostly their own time. Duarte was initially skeptical about the presentation, but it became a successful movie that rapidly gained popularity and became a surprise hit.

    • The Benefits of Early Adoption for Business SuccessBeing an early adopter of new technology can be risky, but it can also provide a competitive advantage. Patience, hard work, and preparation are essential for long-term success, including building new training programs to keep up with the latest innovations.

      Success stories are rarely overnight wonders. They often require years of hard work and preparation. Getting traction requires a lot of follow-up work, including building new training programs. Apple has been a client of Duarte since the start of the company. Duarte's experience with Apple taught her that being early to adopt new technology can be risky, but can also pay off. Presentations used to be done with 35mm slides on a carousel, but Apple was the first to connect a computer to a projector at scale, which was a risky move that paid off. Early adoption can lead to a competitive edge.

    • Creativity and Brand Consistency are Key in Effective Presentation Tools UseTo create visually appealing and stand-out presentations, use presentation tools with creativity and brand consistency while retaining a focus on the audience's needs and message clarity.

      Effective use of presentation tools requires creativity and adherence to brand guidelines. Pushing the boundaries of the tool's capabilities can create visually appealing presentations when done correctly. However, putting the tool in the hands of the masses can lead to poor design choices, which can destroy the medium itself. It is important to focus on what the audience wants to see and ensure that the message is clear. Brand consistency and pushing the boundaries in a pleasing way can lead to stand-out presentations that the audience will appreciate.

    • The importance of empathy in creating a successful presentationTo connect with your audience and create a memorable experience, focus on empathy as the foundation by viewing yourself as the mentor, making the audience the hero, and providing solutions that resonate with them.

      When creating a presentation, it's important to focus on empathy as the foundation. A presenter should see themselves as the mentor to the audience-hero and provide tools to help them get unstuck and then take action. The balance of power is with the audience, and the presenter should infuse their talk with story to create a more engaging and memorable experience. Three key points to start a successful presentation include starting with empathy, making the audience the hero, and ensuring they can see what you're saying. Understanding your audience's struggles and providing solutions that resonate with them is key to a successful presentation.

    • Engage Your Audience: Best Practices for Successful PresentationsBefore presentations, conduct surveys and interviews with your audience to create a personalized rough cut. Use story structure and quarterly updates to keep your audience engaged and aligned with your message.

      Before doing a presentation, do a listening tour that includes surveys and interviews to gather information from your audience. Use this information to create a rough cut presentation and then invite the next level of leaders to give feedback. Make the listener the hero of your story and incorporate story structures like a beginning, middle, and end to make it resonate with your audience. By building tension and resolving it, you can keep your audience engaged and align their brains with yours. Quarterly updates to your annual kickoff meeting can help keep your team enthused and if done well, people will visibly show that they 'get it'.

    • How Storytelling can Infuse Your Presentations with Power.Using the Rise and Fall of Contrast to Build Longing for the Future makes a Presentation Impactful and Influential.

      Storytelling creates longing and helps people envision a future they never thought possible. A well-structured presentation with a cadence of rise and fall can incorporate story and truly influence others. The structure of a great story consists of traversing between what is, what could be, what is, what could be, and ending with a new bliss. This motion of contrast builds a longing for the future and makes people leave their current state. The greatest speeches of all time have this rise and fall structure. Incorporating this pattern of contrast and rise and fall will make any presentation impactful.

    • Using Story Structure for Influence in Any SituationApplying the what is, what could be, and new bliss framework to any situation can enhance influence. Long forms of storytelling and coaching are impactful, but even short and tight talks can be effective. Recognizing process gaps in personal relationships and clarifying expectations can improve communication.

      Using story structure can enhance any moment of influence, not just in big presentations or speeches. The contrast of what is, what could be, and new bliss can be a powerful mental model to have in any situation where influence is present. This can range from getting someone to do chores to making important business decisions. Investing in longer forms of storytelling with visuals and speaker coaches can make a big impact, but even short and tight talks can be effective, as seen in Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Effective communication can also be applied in personal relationships by recognizing process gaps and using the what is, what could be, and new bliss framework to clarify expectations.

    • Tips for Effective Communication through Empathy and StorytellingShow empathy, use storytelling with a clear structure, and visualize with tools. Understand your audience's love language to tailor communication to their preferences, resulting in a more effective and empathetic style.

      To effectively communicate, make the listener the hero of the story and show empathy. Infuse your presentation with stories that follow the structure of what is, messy middle, and new bliss. Additionally, ensure that your audience can visualize what you are saying with the use of visual tools such as presentation software, live sketchers, and star moments. Understanding your audience's love language and how they feel appreciated also plays a role in shaping effective communication. By knowing what makes someone feel appreciated, you can tailor your communication to their preferences. At Nancy Duarte's company, this idea is baked into the culture, resulting in a more empathetic and effective communication style.

    • The Power of Visual Aids in CommunicationVisual aids can enhance verbal communication, simplify complex ideas, and ensure understanding and alignment. Incorporate quick visuals and titles in internal meetings or presentations to avoid communication gaps.

      Visual aids can enhance verbal narratives and help in clear communication, especially when we lack the support of presentation or slides. Drawing pictures or gestures can help in articulating complex ideas easily. Collaboration and co-creation of graphics can result in ensuring everyone leaves with a clear understanding, alignment, and no questions. Not all ideas can be expressed through visual aids, and in such cases, we must focus on our body language, verbal stream and create a visual image with words. Internal meetings or presentations should include quick images and title which helps in conveying the intended point. The goal is to ensure effective communication and avoid any communication gaps.

    • Creating Effective Slides for High-Stake PresentationsEvery slide should support the big idea of your presentation. Understand your audience and tailor your presentation to their communication style. Use a slide doc for comprehensive presentations, and have a clear point of view.

      Each slide should make one point in support of the big idea of your presentation. The guiding principle of slide making is not to create a single slide unless it supports the one big idea of your whole talk. It is important to empathize with your audience and understand how they communicate, who they talk to, and tailor your presentation accordingly. This is essential for high-stake presentations. A slide doc is a good option for circulating a presentation via email. It can have more words and pictures than traditional presentations, and include comprehensive appendices. When making a presentation, it is essential to have a big idea, a point of view and to identify what's at stake if they do or do not adopt it.

    • Tips for Creating Effective PresentationsPlan and structure your presentation around your main conclusion, using the Minto principle. Use familiar slides and tie the presentation to a broader application or the big problem being solved for greater impact.

      Starting a presentation with the conclusion is a great way to engage executives and investors, but it may not work for all audiences. The Minto principle suggests that the main sections of a presentation should add up to the overall conclusion, and all slides should support it. To make a presentation more effective, spend time planning and sketching out the narrative before opening the slide software. Don't be afraid to use common slides or frameworks that are familiar to the team, even if they may appear dense to outsiders. It's important to tie the presentation to the big problem being solved and how humanity will benefit from it, using a three-act story structure or a broader application across respected companies.

    • How to Create Effective PresentationsCrafting effective presentations involves creating a narrative and visualizing key moments, tailored to the audience and presenter. For remote presentations, coaching on eye contact and gestures is crucial. Avoid unnecessary technology and maintain a genuine connection with the audience to achieve desired outcomes.

      Crafting effective presentations involves creating a narrative, big ideas, and visualizing key moments, similar to how Pixar creates movies. It's important to tailor presentations to the presenter and audience, and not use a cookie-cutter approach. Remote presentations require coaching on eye contact and utilizing gestures since audiences can't see the presenter's gestures. Presenters should also consider their audience and the goal of the presentation, avoiding unnecessary technology and ensuring both parties have eye contact and a genuine connection. By creating models and narratives that are simple and clear, presenters can achieve their desired outcome, even in high-stakes situations.

    • Overcoming Communication Challenges in the Hybrid Work Model.Hybrid work models demand stronger communication skills. Developing deep content, visualization techniques, and pre-talk rituals can help overcome stage fright and maintain effective face-to-face communication.

      Remote work has led to a decline in soft skills like eye contact and presence, which are essential in face-to-face communication. As people are going back to the office, the hybrid work model presents new challenges in communication, where remote workers struggle to have their voices heard. Product managers and public speakers can prepare themselves by developing thoughtful and deep content. To overcome stage fright, one can visualize a friendly face in the audience, and engage in pre-talk rituals like listening to music or finding a quiet spot. Developing strong communication skills is critical in navigating the changing landscape of work.

    • Nancy Duarte on Overcoming Nervousness and Crafting a Compelling PresentationExperiment with different pre-talk rituals to calm nerves and find what works best for you. Use a five-act structure to organize your presentation, with a torchbearer leader to guide towards a shared dream.

      Nancy Duarte recommends breathing exercises and watching funny videos to help control nervousness before speaking on stage. However, she also acknowledges that what works for some may not work for others and encourages individuals to find their own pre-talk ritual. In her book, Illuminate, co-authored with Patty Sanchez, she discusses the importance of a five-act structure for movements, which includes the role of a torchbearer leader who knows where they're headed but may not have a clear vision. This highlights the importance of verbalizing a dream and taking steps to move people towards that alternate future.

    • The Importance of Emotional Fuel in LeadershipEffective leadership involves using emotional speeches, stories, ceremonies, and symbols to keep the team motivated during a journey towards a bigger initiative. Leaders should focus on authenticity and informative content while being adaptable for change.

      Leadership is like carrying a torch in a dark cave; you can only see a few steps ahead and need to give your team emotional fuel to keep them going through the messy middle of the journey. This requires using speeches, stories, ceremonies, and symbols to spark the right emotions at each phase of the journey towards a bigger initiative. While high production value used to be the norm for video content, the expectation has shifted towards authenticity and informative content. Leaders need to focus on delivering impactful content that resonates with their audience, rather than just polished presentations. Change is constant, and leaders need to be adaptable and flexible in their approach to keep their team motivated and moving forward.

    • The Power of Storytelling in Product ManagementBy using storytelling methods, product managers can gain insights and make better decisions in every phase of the product development cycle. A narrative can add meaning to a product and make the difference between success and failure.

      Storytelling can be a powerful tool for product managers in every phase of the product development cycle, from ideation to launch. By walking in the shoes of their ideal customer and using classic storytelling methods, product teams can gain important insights and make better strategic decisions. Without a story or narrative to tie a product together, all the time and resources invested in its development can be wasted. The ability to add meaning and wrap a product in a story can make the difference between a product being chosen or rejected. Even big product launches, like those done by Apple, rely on the power of storytelling to captivate and engage audiences.

    • Embracing Change, Storytelling and Self-Awareness in BusinessFocus on a few areas and make them awesome, empathize with guests and hosts, understand and accept oneself while adapting to others. Hire people open to learning, and improve writing skills with tools like writer.com and classic books.

      A key takeaway from the conversation is to pick a few areas to focus on and make them awesome, visualizing the future and identifying ways to empathize with guests and hosts. Another takeaway is to understand oneself, accept oneself and adapt to others, which is an important principle embraced by the company. Additionally, it is crucial to hire people who are open to understanding their strengths and weaknesses and adapting to changes. Nancy Duarte recommends the classic gospels and 'The Writer's Journey' book by Chris Vogler for people interested in story writing. She also shares her excitement about discovering a tool called writer.com, which uses multiple language models and is trained on her own language model to enhance faster and better writing.

    • Streamline Presentation Development Process with an Annotation System and Tap into Your Passion to Become a Better PresenterReduce edit cycles and improve presentation skills with an annotation system. Share your passion to engage your audience. Work on communication and clarity to enhance the experience for everyone. Connect with Nancy Duarte on duarte.com/nancy and Twitter.

      Creating an annotation system for tracking the status of slides can significantly reduce edit cycles and streamline the presentation development process. To become a better presenter, pick a topic you're passionate about and present from your soul. This will help you tap into your passion and use it to make any presentation better. Working hard on communication skills and clarity can not only make you a better communicator but also make everyone around you much happier people. Nancy Duarte can be found at duarte.com/nancy and on Twitter @NancyDuarte.

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    • Y Combinator: https://www.ycombinator.com/

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    •Bitcoin launderer pleads guilty, admits to massive Bitfinex hack: https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/03/new-york-man-admits-being-original-bitfinex-hacker-during-guilty-plea-in-dc-to-bitcoin-money-laundering.html

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    Life: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Keith-Richards-ebook/dp/B003UBTX72/

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    (29:35) The power of having a shared narrative

    (31:55) WhatsApp: an example of metaphor in action

    (34:44) Emulating people that inspire you

    (36:19) WhatsApp video calling

    (37:35) Why execution is greater than strategy

    (41:36) Time allotment for strategy vs. execution

    (45:10) How to become a better strategic thinker

    (47:59) The intricacies of implementing feedback

    (51:53) Being a female leader in tech

    (55:13) Advice for young women in tech

    (56:07) Setting goals and aligning incentives

    (01:01:40) Acknowledging hard truths

    (01:05:46) Lessons from transitioning to Faire

    (01:08:40) The importance of a good CPO/CEO relationship

    (01:11:17) Vetting heads of product and maintaining customer focus

    (01:12:40) How Ami went from intern to leading major products at Meta

    (01:14:53) The one thing you should do to be successful in product

    (01:17:25) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Faire: https://www.faire.com/

    • Making Meta | Andrew “Boz” Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto

    •  Community Wisdom: AMA with Dan Hockenmaier + Facilitating a roadmap session, structuring product teams, navigating an acquisition, companies not needing PMs anymore, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto

    • Developing a growth model + marketplace growth strategy | Dan Hockenmaier (Faire, Thumbtack, Reforge): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/developing-a-growth-model-marketplace

    • Dan Hockenmaier’s website: https://www.danhock.com/

    • On Reviews: https://boz.com/articles/reviews

    • Finding a global optimum always feels like a hill climb: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/amvora_finding-a-global-optimum-always-feels-like-activity-7074776143882588161-jhyy/

    • Dolores Park: https://sfrecpark.org/892/Mission-Dolores-Park

    • Rob Goldman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robgoldman/

    • Execution eats strategy for breakfast, but execution without strategy leads to burnout: https://rationalpm.substack.com/p/execution-eats-strategy-for-breakfast

    • The goal of a “strategy” is to change our own team’s behavior: https://amivora.substack.com/p/the-goal-of-a-strategy-is-to-change

    • The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    • Path to Power course outline: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Pfeffer-OB377-Course-Outline-2018.pdf

    • Management Time: Who’s Got the Monkey?: https://hbr.org/1999/11/management-time-whos-got-the-monkey

    • Max Rhodes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/max-rhodes/

    • Coupa Coffee: https://www.coupacafe.com/

    • Brandee Barker on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandeedbarker/

    Year of Yes: How to Dance It Out, Stand In the Sun and Be Your Own Person: https://www.amazon.com/Year-Yes-Dance-Stand-Person/dp/1476777128 

    • How to tell better stories | Matthew Dicks (Storyworthy): https://www.lennyspodcast.com/how-to-tell-better-stories-matthew-dicks-storyworthy/

    • A life of yes: Matthew Dicks at TEDxSomerville: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3TaQFcaMk4

    The Office on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/stream-tv/the-office

    30 Rock on Peacock: https://www.peacocktv.com/watch-online/tv/30-rock/6240863759978157112

    • Dall-E-2: https://openai.com/index/dall-e-2/

    • ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com

    • Fellow kettles: https://fellowproducts.com/products/stagg-ekg-electric-pour-over-kettle

    • TikTok’s “Roman Empire” Meme, Explained: https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2023/09/21/tiktoks-roman-empire-meme-explained/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Hard-won lessons building 0 to 1 inside Atlassian | Tanguy Crusson (Head of Jira Product Discovery)

    Hard-won lessons building 0 to 1 inside Atlassian | Tanguy Crusson (Head of Jira Product Discovery)

    Tanguy Crusson is the product lead for Jira Product Discovery at Atlassian. In his more than 10 years at the company, he has been instrumental in taking several new products from zero to one, including HipChat, Statuspage, and Jira Product Discovery. In this episode, we dive deep into the struggles of innovating and building new products inside a large company. Tanguy shares candid stories about what worked, what didn’t, and his many hard-won lessons learned about how to successfully build 0 to 1. We cover:

    • Why large companies with so many advantages still fail at creating new products

    • Lessons learned from building HipChat

    • How to avoid common pitfalls like competitive myopia and premature scaling

    • Lessons learned from the acquisition and integration of Statuspage

    • Insights from the success of Jira Product Discovery

    • Tactics for protecting your “ugly babies”

    • The power of “lighthouse users”

    • The importance of having a “why now”

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/building-0-to-1-inside-atlassian-tanguy-crusson

    Where to find Tanguy Crusson:

    • X: https://x.com/tanguycrusson

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tanguy-crusson-99832a

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Tanguy’s background

    (02:30) Tanguy’s journey at Atlassian

    (07:03) The challenges of innovating in large companies

    (10:42) Atlassian's high bar for excellence 

    (12:58) The HipChat story: successes, failures, and lessons learned

    (20:47) Lessons learned from building HipChat

    (33:49) Statuspage: a journey of perseverance

    (39:48) Acquisition challenges and lessons

    (47:22) Strategic decisions: build, buy, or partner?

    (48:17) Learning to articulate "why now"

    (54:08) A quick summary of lessons in this episode

    (55:40) The success and pain of launching Jira Product Discovery 

    (58:10) Incubating new products: the Point A program

    (01:00:13) Failure is the most likely outcome

    (01:04:15) Atlassian's four-phase approach to launching new products

    (01:09:20) Breaking rules without breaking trust

    (01:16:16) Early success and team autonomy

    (01:17:22) Innovating without disrupting existing customers

    (01:23:17) The Lighthouse Users program

    (01:30:00) Protecting and nurturing new ideas

    (01:36:14) Balancing innovation with personal well-being

    (01:38:17) A reminder to look after yourself

    (01:42:06) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Atlassian: https://www.atlassian.com/

    • HipChat: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Hipchat/ct-p/hipchat

    • Stride: https://community.atlassian.com/t5/Stride/ct-p/stride

    • Statuspage: https://www.atlassian.com/software/statuspage

    • Opsgenie: https://www.atlassian.com/software/opsgenie

    • Jira Product Discovery: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira/product-discovery

    • HipChat billboard: https://x.com/HubSpot/status/654696998126272512

    • Announcing our new partnership with Slack: https://www.atlassian.com/blog/announcements/new-atlassian-slack-partnership

    • Slack shows it’s worried about Microsoft Teams with a full-page newspaper ad: https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/2/13497766/slack-microsoft-teams-new-york-times-ad

    • What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html

    • Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

    • Confluence: https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence

    • PagerDuty: https://www.pagerduty.com/

    • New Relic: https://newrelic.com/

    • BigPanda: https://www.bigpanda.io/

    • Transparent Uptime: http://www.transparentuptime.com/

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Figma: https://www.figma.com/

    • Lessons from Atlassian: Launching new products, getting buy-in, and staying ahead of the competition | Megan Cook (head of product, Jira): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-atlassian-launching

    • Noah Weiss on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noahw/

    • Tanguy’s LinkedIn post about “lighthouse users”: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/tanguy-crusson-99832a_lighthouse-users-one-of-the-pm-techniques-activity-7176654510801502210-hWNi/

    • Pixar Chief: Protect Your ‘Ugly Babies’ (Your Unsightly Ideas): https://www.forbes.com/sites/andyboynton/2014/03/17/pixar-chief-protect-your-ugly-babies-your-unsightly-ideas/

    • Atlas: https://www.atlassian.com/software/atlas

    • Point A: https://www.atlassian.com/point-a

    • Scott Farquhar on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottfarquhar

    Who: A Method for Hiring: https://www.amazon.com/Who-Method-Hiring-HC-2008/dp/B004C79SRS/

    Hakim’s Odyssey: Book 1: From Syria to Turkey: https://www.amazon.com/Hakims-Odyssey-Book-Syria-Turkey/dp/1637790007

    Living with the Earth, Volume 1: Permaculture, Ecoculture: Inspired by Nature: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Earth-Gardeners-Permaculture-Ecoculture/dp/1856232603/

    • INRIA: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Institute_for_Research_in_Computer_Science_and_Automation

    • How a Hydrofoil Works: https://web.mit.edu/2.972/www/reports/hydrofoil/hydrofoil.html

    • What Is Kitefoil or Foilboarding?: https://www.whenitswindy.com/wp/?page_id=534

    • Freediving: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freediving

    • Tanguy’s freediving stats: https://www.aidainternational.org/Athletes/Profile-00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000a45

    • Perplexity: https://www.perplexity.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB)

    The paths to power: How to grow your influence and advance your career | Jeffrey Pfeffer (author of 7 Rules of Power, professor at Stanford GSB)

    Jeffrey Pfeffer teaches the single most popular (and somewhat controversial) class at Stanford’s Graduate School of Business: The Paths to Power. He’s also the author of 16 books, including 7 Rules of Power: Surprising—But True—Advice on How to Get Things Done and Advance Your Career. He has taught at Harvard, the London Business School, and IESE and has written for publications like Fortune and the Washington Post. Recognized by the Academy of Management and listed in the Thinkers50 Hall of Fame, Jeffrey also serves on several corporate and nonprofit boards, bringing his expertise to global audiences through seminars and executive education. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Jeffrey’s seven rules of power

    • How individuals can acquire and use power in business

    • Networking, and how to do it effectively

    • How to build a non-cringe personal brand

    • How to increase your influence to amplify your impact

    • Examples and stories of people building power

    • Tradeoffs and challenges that come with power

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-paths-to-power-jeffrey-pfeffer

    Where to find Jeffrey Pfeffer:

    • X: https://x.com/JeffreyPfeffer

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-pfeffer-57a01b6/

    • Website: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/

    • Podcast: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/pfeffer-on-power/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Jeffrey’s background 

    (02:54) Understanding discomfort with power

    (04:56) Power skills for underrepresented groups

    (07:51) The popularity and challenges of Jeffrey’s class at Stanford

    (12:21) The seven rules of power

    (13:03) Success stories from his course

    (15:43) Building a personal brand

    (21:11) Getting out of your own way

    (26:04) Breaking the rules to gain power

    (30:34) Networking relentlessly

    (40:10) Why Jeffrey says to “pursue weak ties”

    (42:00) Using your power to build more power

    (44:34) The importance of appearance and body language

    (47:15) Mastering the art of presentation

    (55:12) Examples of homework assignments that Jeffrey gives students

    (59:11) People will forget how you acquired power

    (01:03:58) More good people need to have power

    (01:10:49) The price of power and autonomy

    (01:17:13) A homework assignment for you

    Referenced:

    • Gerald Ferris on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gerald-r-ferris-5816b1b5/

    • Political Skill at Work: https://tarjomefa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/4173-engilish.pdf

    • Laura Esserman, MD: https://cancer.ucsf.edu/people/esserman.laura

    • Taylor Swift’s website: https://www.taylorswift.com/

    • Matthew 7: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%207&version=NIV

    • Mother Teresa quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2887-if-you-judge-people-you-have-no-time-to-love

    • Paths to Power course description: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Pfeffer-OB377-Course-Outline-2018.pdf

    7 Rules of Power: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/7-rules-of-power/

    The Knowing-Doing Gap: https://jeffreypfeffer.com/books/the-knowing-doing-gap/

    • Derek Kan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkan/

    • Mitt Romney on X: https://x.com/mittromney

    • Elaine Chao’s website: https://www.elainechao.com/

    • Tony Hsieh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hsieh

    • Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

    • How I Did It: Zappos’s CEO on Going to Extremes for Customers: https://hbr.org/2010/07/how-i-did-it-zapposs-ceo-on-going-to-extremes-for-customers

    • McKinsey & Company: https://www.mckinsey.com/

    • Bain & Company: https://www.bain.com/

    • BCG: https://www.bcg.com/

    • Keith Ferrazzi’s website: https://www.keithferrazzi.com/

    • Deloitte: https://www2.deloitte.com/

    • Tristan Walker: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tristanwalker/

    • Foursquare: https://foursquare.com/

    • Laura Chau on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-chau/

    • Canaan Partners: https://www.canaan.com/

    • Andreessen Horowitz: https://a16z.com/

    • Sequoia Capital: https://www.sequoiacap.com/

    • Greylock: https://greylock.com/

    The Women Who Venture (WoVen) Podcast: https://www.canaan.com/woven/podcasts

    • Imposter syndrome: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/imposter-syndrome

    • Gary Loveman and Harrah’s Entertainment: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/gary-loveman-harrahs-entertainment

    • “If you need help, just ask”: Underestimating compliance with direct requests for help: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/publications/if-you-need-help-just-ask-underestimating-compliance-direct-requests

    • Life story of Kathleen Frances Fowler: https://www.forevermissed.com/kathleenfowler/lifestory

    • Jason Calacanis on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanis/

    • Jason Calacanis: A Case Study in Creating Resources: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/case-studies/jason-calacanis-case-study-creating-resources

    You’re Invited: The Art and Science of Connection, Trust, and Belonging: https://www.amazon.com/Youre-Invited-Science-Cultivating-Influence/dp/0063030977

    • View from the Top: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/experience/learning/guest-speakers/view-top

    • Omid Kordestani on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/omid-kordestani-46515151/

    • Netscape: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape

    •  Esther Wojcicki on LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/estherwojcicki/

    • Leanne Williams: https://med.stanford.edu/profiles/leanne-williams

    Precision Psychiatry: Using Neuroscience Insights to Inform Personally Tailored, Measurement-Based Care: https://www.amazon.com/Precision-Psychiatry-Neuroscience-Personally-Measurement-Based/dp/1615371583

    • Mark Granovetter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-granovetter-8161704/

    • The Strength of Weak Ties: https://snap.stanford.edu/class/cs224w-readings/granovetter73weakties.pdf

    Getting a Jobhttps://www.amazon.com/Getting-Job-Study-Contacts-Careers/dp/0226305813

    Acting with Power: https://www.amazon.com/Acting-Power-More-Powerful-Believe/dp/110190397X

    • Articles by Herminia Ibarra: https://herminiaibarra.com/articles/

    Kingdom of the Planet of the Ape: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11389872/

    • Jim Collins’s website: https://www.jimcollins.com/

    • Dana Carney on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danarosecarney/

    • Baba Shiv: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-research/faculty/baba-shiv

    • Tony Hayward: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hayward

    • Lloyd Blankfein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Blankfein

    • Regis McKenna: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regis_McKenna

    • Jack Valenti: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Valenti

    • Salman Rushdie quote: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/434175220328596286/

    • How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • Carole Robin’s 15% rule: https://pen-name.notion.site/Carole-Robin-on-Lenny-s-Podcast-dc7159208e4242428f4b11ebc92285eb

    • Karlie Kloss on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/karliekloss

    • Lindsey Graham’s website: https://www.lindseygraham.com/

    • Was Microsoft’s Empire Built on Stolen Code? We May Never Know: https://www.wired.com/2012/08/ms-dos-examined-for-thef/

    • Who’s who of Jeffrey Epstein’s powerful friends, associates and possible co-conspirators: https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/12/us/jeffrey-epstein-associates-possible-accomplices/index.html

    • Why Did Martha Stewart Go to Prison? A Look Back at Her 2004 Fraud Case: https://people.com/martha-stewart-fraud-case-prison-sentence-look-back-8550277

    • Dianne Feinstein: https://www.congress.gov/member/dianne-feinstein/F000062

    • Richard Blum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_C._Blum

    • Athena Care Network: https://www.athenacarenetwork.org

    • James G. March: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_G._March

    • Satya Nadella on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/satyanadella/

    • Trump Organization fined $1.6 million for tax fraud: https://apnews.com/article/politics-legal-proceedings-new-york-city-donald-trump-manhattan-e2f1d01525dafb64be8738c8b4f32085

    • Rudy Giuliani: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Giuliani

    • Harvard president resigns amid claims of plagiarism and antisemitism backlash: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/jan/02/harvard-president-claudine-gay-resigns

    • Stanford president resigns after fallout from falsified data in his research: https://www.npr.org/2023/07/19/1188828810/stanford-university-president-resigns

    • Rudy Crew: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudy_Crew

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member | Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze)

    Lessons from a two-time unicorn builder, 50-time startup advisor, and 20-time company board member | Uri Levine (co-founder of Waze)

    Uri Levine is the co-founder of Waze, the world’s largest community-based traffic and navigation app, acquired by Google for over $1 billion. He’s also founded nine other companies, been on the board of 20 companies, and advised more than 50 companies. He’s most recently the author of Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs, hailed by Steve Wozniak as the “Bible for entrepreneurs.” Uri is dedicated to creating impactful startups that solve real-world problems and has seen everything from failure to moderate success to big success. In our conversation, we dig into:

    • Why falling in love with the problem is key to startup success

    • The phases of the startup journey and how to navigate them

    • Why firing is more important than hiring

    • How Waze iterated to achieve product-market fit

    • Tactics for telling a compelling story when fundraising

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

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    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-uri-levine

    Where to find Uri Levine:

    • X: https://twitter.com/urilevine1

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/uri-levine

    • Website: https://urilevine.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Uri’s background

    (02:50) Falling in love with the problem

    (09:03) Signs this is a big enough problem

    (10:54) The importance of passion

    (12:06) A pivot example

    (14:01) Where to find startup ideas

    (21:57) Finding product-market fit at Waze

    (29:45) The different phases of a startup journey

    (36:47) What investors don’t want to hear

    (39:53) Fundraising tips

    (48:02) How to make your presentations stronger

    (50:32) A wild fundraising story

    (53:46) Firing and hiring

    (59:50) The 30-day test

    (01:04:12) Understanding users

    (01:12:10) Talking to the right users

    (01:15:36) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    Fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution: A Handbook for Entrepreneurs: https://www.amazon.com/Fall-Love-Problem-Solution-Entrepreneurs/dp/1637741987

    • Waze: https://www.waze.com/

    • Ben Horowitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/behorowitz/

    • Ben Horowitz quote: https://quotefancy.com/quote/1635284/Ben-Horowitz-As-a-startup-CEO-I-slept-like-a-baby-I-woke-up-every-2-hours-and-cried

    • Michael Jordan quote: https://www.forbes.com/quotes/11194/#:~:text=I've%20lost%20almost%20300,that%20is%20why%20I%20succeed.

    • Steph Curry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Curry

    • How Airbnb Used Word of Mouth to Change the Travel Industry Forever: https://truested.com/story/airbnb

    • Space Mountain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Mountain_(Disneyland)

    • How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-netflix-builds-a-culture-of-excellence

    • Steve Wozniak on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wozniaksteve/

    • Uri’s post about the conference in Guatemala with Steve Wozniak: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/uri-levine_jewishnewyear-speakers-book-activity-6980089544079486976-0ADa/

    • Leonardo da Vinci quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9010638-simplicity-is-the-ultimate-sophistication-when-once-you-have-tasted

    • Geoffrey Moore on finding your beachhead, crossing the chasm, and dominating a market: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/geoffrey-moore-on-finding-your-beachhead

    • Nana Korobi Ya Oki: https://ikigaitribe.com/vlog/nana-korobi-ya-oki/

    That Will Never Work: The Birth of Netflix and the Amazing Life of an Idea: https://www.amazon.com/That-Will-Never-Work-Netflix/dp/0316530204

    Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones: https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-Proven-Build-Break/dp/0735211299

    • 8 Great Chess Apps for Beginners and Grand Masters: https://www.wired.com/story/best-chess-apps/

    • Pontera: https://pontera.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO)

    Inside Canva: Coaches not managers, giving away your Legos, and running profitably | Cameron Adams (co-founder and CPO)

    Cameron Adams is the co-founder and chief product officer of Canva. Canva is one of the world’s most valuable private software companies, used by 95% of Fortune 500 companies. Since its launch in 2013, Canva has grown to over 150 million monthly users in more than 190 countries, generating $2.3 billion in annual revenue. Prior to Canva, Cameron ran a design consultancy, worked at Google on Google Wave, and founded the email startup Fluent. He is also an author of five web design books and a regular speaker at global conferences. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why they spent a year building their minimum viable product (MVP) before launch

    • Why Canva has no managers, and their unique approach to coaching and performance reviews

    • Why they encourage employees to “give away their Legos”

    • Insights into Canva’s SEO growth strategy

    • Their three-pillar framework for integrating AI into their product

    • Stories from the early days

    Brought to you by:

    WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs

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    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-canva-with-cameron-adams

    Where to find Cameron Adams:

    • X: https://twitter.com/themaninblue

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/themaninblue

    • Website: https://themaninblue.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Cameron’s background

    (02:00) Reflecting on the success of Canva

    (04:50) Reflecting on hard times

    (10:01) Canva’s product-obsessed culture

    (12:02) Why they prioritize internal promotions and hires

    (13:56) What makes Canva unique

    (16:31) The concept of giving away your Legos

    (21:44) Why Canva has no managers

    (24:29) Product management at Canva

    (27:56) Reflections on working with a married couple

    (30:37) Why they spent a year building their MVP before launch

    (33:49) Advice for building an MVP

    (41:23) Canva’s onboarding transformation

    (44:25) Canva’s SEO strategy

    (50:37) The success of Canva’s freemium strategy

    (54:24) Integrating AI into Canva’s product

    (01:01:50) Where to find Cameron

    Referenced:

    • Canva: https://www.canva.com/

    • Melanie Perkins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanieperkins

    • Cliff Obrecht on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cliff-obrecht-79ba9920

    • Jennie Rogerson, Head of People, LinkedIn post about “season opener” events: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jennierogerson_season-opener-is-one-of-my-favourite-events-activity-7006815614556135424-73bD/

    Game of Thrones on HBO: https://www.hbo.com/game-of-thrones

    • Woodstock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodstock

    • ‘Give Away Your Legos’ and Other Commandments for Scaling Startups: https://review.firstround.com/give-away-your-legos-and-other-commandments-for-scaling-startups/

    • Minimum viable product (MVP): https://www.productboard.com/glossary/minimum-viable-product-mvp

    • Canva’s SEO Strategy Is Elite: https://thegrowthplaybook.substack.com/p/canvas-seo-strategy-is-elite

    • The SEO Strategy That Led Canva to a $40 Billion Valuation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INyGKt6LAqM

    • Andrianes Pinantoan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrianes/

    • Canva Create: https://www.canva.com/canva-create/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect)

    The surprising truth about what closes deals: Insights from 2.5m sales conversations | Matt Dixon (author of The Challenger Sale and The JOLT Effect)

    Matt Dixon is one of the world’s foremost experts in sales and the author of The Challenger Sale, which sold over a million copies worldwide and was a #1 Amazon and Wall Street Journal bestseller. His most recent book, The JOLT Effect, focuses on overcoming customer indecision—one of the biggest challenges to closing deals. Outside of writing, Matt co-founded DCM Insights, a boutique consultancy helping organizations understand customer behavior, and is a frequent contributor to the Harvard Business Review, with more than 20 print and online articles to his credit. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • Why 40% to 60% of qualified sales opportunities are lost due to customer indecision

    • Why dialing up FOMO doesn’t work, and what to do instead

    • The “pings and echoes” technique to catch issues early

    • The JOLT method for overcoming indecision

    • Key lessons from The Challenger Sale

    • Practical examples of how to apply these principles to close more deals

    Brought to you by:

    Enterpret—Transform customer feedback into product growth

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Heap—Cross-platform product analytics that converts, engages, and retains customers

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/close-more-deals-matt-dixon

    Where to find Matt Dixon:

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewxdixon

    • Website: https://www.jolteffect.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Matt’s background

    (01:57) The research behind Matt’s books

    (06:08) Insights from The JOLT Effect

    (10:15) FOMO vs. FOMU

    (18:18) An example of selling software

    (26:04) The JOLT method Step 1: Judge their level of indecision

    (29:41) The “pings and echoes” technique

    (34:49) Step 2: Offer a recommendation

    (38:36) Step 3: Limit the exploration

    (41:43) Step 4: Take risk off the table

    (45:58) When to hit the pause button with a customer

    (47:27) Insights from The Challenger Sale

    (49:07) An example of a challenger sale

    (55:23) Where to find Matt

    Referenced:

    • A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting

    The Challenger Sale: Taking Control of the Customer Conversation: https://www.amazon.com/Challenger-Sale-Control-Customer-Conversation/dp/0670922854

    The JOLT Effect: How High Performers Overcome Customer Indecision: https://www.amazon.com/JOLT-Effect-Performers-Overcome-Indecision/dp/0593538102

    • Gartner acquires CEB: https://www.gartner.com/en/about/acquisitions/history/ceb-acquisition

    Tiger King on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81115994

    • Why sourdough went viral: https://www.economist.com/1843/2020/08/04/why-sourdough-went-viral

    • Neil Rackham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Rackham

    • Status quo bias in decision-making: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_quo_bias

    • Omission bias: https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/omission-bias

    • Gartner Magic Quadrant & Critical Capabilities: https://www.gartner.com/en/research/magic-quadrant

    • Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

    • Stop Losing Sales to Customer Indecision: https://hbr.org/2022/06/stop-losing-sales-to-customer-indecision

    • Dentsply Sirona: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/

    • “We happy?” Briefcase scene from Tarantino’s Pulp Fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGchDuOpbhE

    • Nupro Freedom Cordless Prophy System: https://www.dentsplysirona.com/en-us/discover/discover-by-category/preventive/hygiene-handpieces.html

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart)

    Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Instacart)

    Bangaly Kaba was an early growth PM at Facebook, head of growth at Instagram, and VP of Product at Instacart and is currently Director of Product at YouTube overseeing a global team working on creator monetization. Bangaly has also been a growth advisor to dozens of companies, including Twitter, on the board of multiple companies, and is an active angel investor. In our conversation, we discuss:

    • A simple framework for choosing where to work and what to work on

    • The importance of “understand work”

    • The “adjacent users” theory and how it can help you drive growth

    • Advice for coaching product managers

    • Invaluable lessons from his time at Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube

    • Much more

    Brought to you by:

    Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders

    Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security.

    Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba

    Where to find Bangaly Kaba:

    • X: https://twitter.com/iambangaly

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iambangaly/

    • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iambangaly/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Bangaly’s background

    (06:31) Choosing where to work and what to work on

    (08:39) The impact factor

    (10:53) Evaluating the environment

    (15:53) The manager component

    (18:27) The skills part of the equation

    (23:49) Advice on finding a mentor

    (25:42) The power of “understand work”

    (31:17) Operationalizing understand work

    (37:55) Balancing understand work

    (41:25) Managing complex change

    (45:26) Effective management of product managers

    (51:35) The role of product managers as coaches and team leaders

    (54:52) Driving growth through flywheels and value proposition

    (01:03:14) Understanding adjacent users

    (01:08:41) The role of partnerships and SEO in Instagram’s early growth

    (01:16:08) The secret behind Instagram’s growth

    (01:25:37) Lessons from Facebook

    (01:29:15) Failure corner

    (01:31:58) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Impact = Environment x Skills: How to Make Career Decisions: https://www.reforge.com/blog/how-to-make-career-decisions

    • Thinking beyond frameworks | Casey Winters (Pinterest, Eventbrite, Airbnb, Tinder, Canva, Reddit, Grubhub): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/thinking-beyond-frameworks-casey

    • Casey Winters’s blog: https://caseyaccidental.com/

    • Ben Thompson’s newsletter: https://stratechery.com/about/

    • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company

    • George Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geolee/

    • Bangaly Kaba: The Path to 1 Billion: Lessons Learned from Growing Instagram—CXL LIVE 2018: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ZHlb6kj_E

    • What Is ‘Dogfooding’?: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/business/dogfooding.html

    • Bloom’s taxonomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom%27s_taxonomy

    • Kevin Systrom on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinsystrom/

    • Mike Krieger on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikekrieger/

    • LeBron James: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeBron_James

    • Kobe Bryant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobe_Bryant

    •  Mike Krzyzewski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Krzyzewski

    • John Calipari: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calipari

    • Stripe: https://stripe.com/

    • Chief: https://chief.com/

    • Jobs to be done framework: https://jobs-to-be-done.com/jobs-to-be-done-a-framework-for-customer-needs-c883cbf61c90

    • The Adjacent User: https://brianbalfour.com/quick-takes/the-adjacent-user

    • How the biggest consumer apps got their first 1,000 users: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-the-biggest-consumer-apps-got

    • Alex Zhu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/keepsilence/

    • From Brush to Canvas with Alex Zhu of Musical.ly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey15v81pwII

    • Selena Gomez on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/selenagomez/

    • Kim Kardashian on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kimkardashian/

    • Rob Andrews on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robby-andrews-64669720/

    • Instagram’s growth speeds up as it hits 700 million users: https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/26/instagram-700-million-users/

    Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484

    Deep Work: Rules for Focused Success in a Distracted World: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Work-Focused-Success-Distracted/dp/1455586692

    Start at the End: How to Build Products That Create Change: https://www.amazon.com/Start-End-Products-Create-Change/dp/0525534423

    • Flighty app: https://www.flightyapp.com/

    • Adam Grant on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/adamgrant/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

    Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack)

    Why not asking for what you want is holding you back | Kenneth Berger (exec coach, first PM at Slack)

    Kenneth Berger coaches startup leaders on how to prevent burnout, advocate for their desired lifestyle, and make a meaningful impact on the world. He’s spent more than 20 years in the tech industry, is a former founder backed by top investors, and was the first product manager at Slack. Kenneth’s core mission is to help startup leaders change the world by learning to ask for what they want, living with integrity, and building genuine relationships even with the people they find most challenging. Currently he is writing a book, Ask for What You Want, in which he aims to share his actionable strategies for creating change in the world. In our conversation, we explore:

    • Why asking for what you want is so impactful

    • Three steps to effectively ask for what you want

    • Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

    • Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

    • The “dream behind the complaint” technique for uncovering desires

    • Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

    • How embracing fear and discomfort is key to getting what you want

    • Why discipline is overrated

    Brought to you by:

    Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers

    Webflow—The web experience platform

    Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security

    Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/ask-for-what-you-want-kenneth-berger

    Where to find Kenneth Berger:

    • X: https://twitter.com/kberger

    • Threads: https://www.threads.net/@kberger

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kberger/

    • Website: https://kberger.com/

    Where to find Lenny:

    • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

    • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

    • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

    In this episode, we cover:

    (00:00) Kenneth’s background

    (04:31) The importance of asking for what you want

    (06:36) Challenges that arise when people struggle to ask for what they want

    (08:09) A personal example of failing to ask for what you want

    (09:17) Signs this is a skill you need to work on

    (10:49) How to get better at knowing what you want

    (15:28) Why hearing “no” is a normal part of the process

    (17:29) Getting a “yes” vs. a “hell yes”

    (19:20) Step 1: Articulate what you want

    (24:07) Doing an integrity check

    (26:56) Step 2: Ask for what you want intentionally

    (30:45) Understanding your influence

    (34:48) Using complaints as inspiration

    (36:24) Internal family systems

    (38:00) Giving feedback

    (41:24) Step 3: Accept the response

    (45:22) Kenneth’s experience of being fired three times from Slack

    (57:30) Advice on being the first PM at a company or startup

    (01:04:58) Contrarian corner: anti-discipline

    (01:05:52) Lightning round

    Referenced:

    • Joining as the first product manager: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/joining-as-the-first-product-manager

    • Internal Family Systems: https://ifs-institute.com/

    • How to build deeper, more robust relationships | Carole Robin (Stanford GSB professor, “Touchy Feely”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • Leaders in Tech: https://leadersintech.org/

    • The Three Realities Framework | The 15% Rule | Feedback Guidelines: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/build-robust-relationships-carole-robin

    • T-group weekends at Stanford: https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/experience/learning/leadership/interpersonal-dynamics/facilitation-training-program/intro-tgroup

    • DBT skill DEAR MAN: https://www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheet/dbt-dear-man

    • Dialectical behavior therapy (DBT): https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/22838-dialectical-behavior-therapy-dbt

    • Vision, conviction, and hype: How to build 0 to 1 inside a company | Mihika Kapoor (Product at Figma): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/vision-conviction-hype-mihika-kapoor

    • Stewart Butterfield on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/butterfield/

    • How to fire people with grace, work through fear, and nurture innovation | Matt Mochary (CEO coach): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-fire-people-with-grace-work

    Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity: https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Candor-Kick-Ass-Without-Humanity/dp/1250103509

    • Radical Candor: From theory to practice with author Kim Scott: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/radical-candor-from-theory-to-practice

    • Jonny Miller’s Nervous System Mastery course: https://nsmastery.com/lenny

    • Managing nerves, anxiety, and burnout | Jonny Miller (Nervous System Mastery): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/managing-nerves-anxiety-and-burnout

    The 15 Commitments of Conscious Leadership: A New Paradigm for Sustainable Success: https://www.amazon.com/15-Commitments-Conscious-Leadership-Sustainable-ebook/dp/B00R3MHWUE

    Break Point on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81569920

    Living on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/81582076

    • Wimbledon tennis: https://www.wimbledon.com

    • Wenshan Baozhong tea: https://redblossomtea.com/products/wenshan-baozhong?variant=31629962820

    • Tea From Taiwan: https://www.teafromtaiwan.com/

    Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

    Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.



    Get full access to Lenny's Newsletter at www.lennysnewsletter.com/subscribe

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