Logo
    Search

    Cider Chat

    Interviewing cidermakers, importers, orchardists, foodies, farmers and cider enthusiasts around the world. Let’s delve into the semantics of cider…or is it hard cider, cidre, sidra or fermented apple juice? The truth is out there in Ciderville and we are going to find it. We toast in celebration of cider; As a libation, a gift from the gods, a taste of terroir, and a hard pressed good time. Ready to quench your thirst? Grab a glass and join this chat! See you in Ciderville!
    enRia Windcaller406 Episodes

    Episodes (406)

    383: The Medlar Specialist & Her Delicious Medlar Book

    383: The Medlar Specialist & Her Delicious Medlar Book

    Meet the Medlar Specialist

    Jane Steward, is the world’s premier Medlar Specialist. She is both a Grower and Producer of medlar preserves at Eastgate Larder, based in the UK, and the Author of the first ever book featuring Medlars called, “Medlars: Growing & Cooking

    Cider Chat Episode 383 Jane picking medlars 200x300 Jane Steward picking Medlars at Eastgate Larder

    In this Medlar Chat

    • What is a Medlar (pome, what do they look like) and why should we care about Medlars?
    • What do they taste like?
    • Where do Medlars grow and where did they come from?
    •  Growing Medlars
    • Medlar cultivars
    • When to pick the fruit?
    • A bit about how Jane came to be a “Medlar Specialist"

    The Book: Medlar, Growing and Cooking by Jane Steward (2023) published by Prospect Books

    Cider Chat recommends supporting your local independent book stores. Jane's Medlar book is available on Amazon and by purchasing via this link Cider Chat does receive a kick back as an affiliate of Amazon at no further cost to you.

    Eastgate Larder Products

    • Medlar Jelly
    • Medlar Chutney
    • Medlar Gin Liqueur

    Contact the Jane Steward, The Medlar Specialist

    Mentions in this Chat

    382: Beginner Tips for Squeaky Clean Cider Equipment

    382: Beginner Tips for Squeaky Clean Cider Equipment

    Dive into cider making essentials. Learn the importance of pristine equipment and elevate your cider's quality. Ideal for beginners starting their journey.

    Tip #1: Understanding the Importance of Sanitation

    Sanitation is critical to cider making, because apple juice creates an environment where not just our chosen yeast can thrive, but also where harmful microbes can multiply. And these microbes? They can spoil your entire batch of cider.

    "Spoiled" cider produces off-flavors when undesirable bacteria and wild yeast get a foothold. These undesirable flavors can range from a medicinal or band-aid taste, caused by phenolic compounds, to a buttery flavor from diacetyl, or even a vinegar-like sourness from acetobacter bacteria.

    And it is not just about taste. Some strains of bacteria, like those producing mycotoxins, can potentially be harmful when consumed. While most off-flavors might just lead to a cider that's unpleasant to drink, certain microbial contaminants can lead to digestive issues or worse. That's why we can't stress enough: Sanitation isn't just for taste; it's for your health and safety too.

    Tip #2: Cleaning vs. Sanitizing – Know the Difference

    To keep those unwanted microbes at bay, you need to both clean and sanitize. And while they might sound similar, they serve distinct purposes. Cleaning removes visible dirt and residues, whereas sanitizing goes a step further, eliminating or reducing those unseen, harmful microbes that can jeopardize your cider.

    Tip #3: Choosing the Right Sanitizer

    As you venture into cider making, you'll hear about various sanitizers. Two of the most popular ones are Iodophor and Star San. Both are effective, but they cater to different preferences.

    Personally, I lean towards Iodophor. It’s an iodine-based sanitizer, and when used at the correct concentrations, it doesn’t leave any taste or residue on your equipment. There are two big advantages especially for a beginner maker who is watching costs. Iodophor is less expensive than Star San. The amount need to clean a 5 gallon carboy is minimal, so a little bit goes a long way. However, be cautious about staining, as it can leave marks on plastics if left for too long.

     

    Star San, on the other hand, is acid-based. It’s known for its foaming action, which can be useful as the foam can reach nooks and crannies you might miss otherwise. Some fermenters swear by the phrase "Don't fear the foam," because even if some foam is left behind, it won’t harm your brew.

     

    Tip #4: Ensure you’re using your sanitizers correctly.

    Both Iodophor and Star San need to be diluted. With Iodophor, typically, a concentration of about 12.5 ppm, or roughly one teaspoon per 5 gallons of water, is recommended. It’s crucial to let your equipment sit in the solution for at least 2 minutes to effectively sanitize.

    If you are a beginner make sure to listen to the tips on this episode to hear swish the sanitizer around in a large glass carboy (5-6 gallons) without compromising your back.

    With Star San, the usual dilution is 1 ounce to 5 gallons of water. The contact time is also roughly 2 minutes. Always refer to the manufacturer's instructions to get the best results, as improper dilution can either render the solution ineffective or potentially harm your cider.

    Tip #5: Clean as You Go - true for Beginner and Seasoned Makers!

    Clean as you go, might sound trivial, but it’s a game changer. Whether you’re transferring juice, checking specific gravity, or bottling your finished cider, always clean and sanitize the equipment immediately after use. This practice will not only make the cleanup process less daunting but also reduce the risk of contamination in your next brewing session

    Equipment List for Cleaning Cider Equipment

      • Solutions

      • Brush for bottle

    •  

    •  

     

    Mentions in this Chat

    381: DIY Cider Making for Beginners

    381: DIY Cider Making for Beginners

    Cider Making at home is a Perfect DIY

    Cider Making is fun! If you are a cider fan who would like to try to make cider at home without breaking the bank, this episode is the perfect DIY project to start your journey.

    New to Cider Making? Start Here!

    In this episode:

    • Simple steps to DIY cider at home
    • Basics of how fermentation works
    • Where to get your juice and what kind of apple juice should you use?
    • Equipment needed to make a gallon of cider
    • The process for both a "controlled" ferment and a wild ferment.

    What you will need - to turn a gallon of apple juice into cider

    Apple Juice

    By buying your equipment via the links provided, you provide a monetary kick back to Cider Chat at no extra cost to YOU. Win/Win 🍎

    • Fresh pressed apple juice
      • Try to find a cider mill that has on hand fresh pressed juice! No cider mill close by? You can now buy apple juice via Amazon! This bottle below is 64 ounces so you will need 2 jugs  to make one gallon.

    • A vessel for fermenting.
      • If you can buy a gallon of fresh pressed apple juice at the cider mill do so and use the jug that it can in to ferment.
        • You will still need a drilled stopper and airlock. These two links will provide options for different size jugs. drilled stopper and airlock.
      • If you buy apple juice at a grocery store or online and you have to buy a few to make one gallon, you will need a single 1-gallon jug.
        •   - Make sure to clean this jug before using. The final rinse should be hot, hot water. Leave enough room for the primary fermentation so that it doesn't bubble over. Always be careful with glass

    The above jug is linked to Amazon and comes with all you need to start primary fermentation. It includes:

    • Size #6.5 Drilled Stopper

    • Airlock - The airlock helps release carbon dioxide (CO2) and keep out Oxygen!

    Books on Cider Making

    The Big Book of Cidermaking

    Listen to episode 231: The Big Book of Cidermaking, with the Shockeys

    The New Cider Makers Handbook, Claude Jolicoeur

    Mentions in this chat

    380: The Legacy of the Downing Brothers: Architects of Nature

    380: The Legacy of the Downing Brothers: Architects of Nature

    The Architectural and Horticultural Endeavors of the Downing Brothers

    In the realm of landscape design and horticulture, few names are as revered as those of Andrew Jackson Downing and his brother, Charles Downing. Through their combined efforts, they have left a lasting imprint on the field, shaping not only the aesthetics but also the principles that govern landscape design and horticulture.

    380 Charles and Andrew J. Downing 300x200

    Andrew Jackson Downing, born in 1815, was an iconic figure in 19th-century America, regarded as one of the founding fathers of landscape architecture. His visionary work combined aesthetics, functionality, and harmony with nature, aiming to create landscapes that were both beautiful and beneficial to the soul. He was an ardent advocate for the integration of parks and public green spaces in urban areas, emphasizing the profound impact such spaces could have on the well-being of the residents.

    Downing’s contribution to landscape design and architecture is noteworthy. He was the author of seminal works like "A Treatise on the Theory and Practice of Landscape Gardening," which became a cornerstone for American landscape architecture. This book illustrated his innovative and holistic approach to design, which involved harmonizing architectural elements with the natural environment.

    Kick off tour to New York Apple Camp and the Downings

    In this episode, audio snap shots from the Milton and Newburgh New York as part of the Downing tour, pre Apple Camp.

    Tour Itinerary:

    • Assemble at Milton Historical Train Station
      41 Dock Rd., Milton, NY 12547
    • Caravan to Crawford House
    • Walk neighborhood and visit site of Andrew Jackson Downing former nursery

    380 Downing Nursery plac 200x300

    • Visit Downing Park Construction started in 1894 and the park was opened in 1897.
      • 181-141 Carpenter Ave, Newburgh, NY 12550
    • Visit to  Cedar Hill Cemetery
      • 5468 Route 9W North, Newburgh NY 12550

    380 Andrew J. Downing and Charles Downing gravesite Andrew J. Downing (left) and and Charles Downing gravesite tall headstone to right at Cedar Hill Cemetery, Newburgh New York

    • Lunch 
    • Visit Klyne Esopus Museum with historian Louis Tiemperio
      764 Route 9W, Ulster Park, NY 12487

    Charles Downing: The Pomological Pioneer

    Charles Downing, the elder brother of Andrew, was an eminent pomologist, dedicating his life to the study of fruits, with a particular focus on apples. His extensive research and writings on pomology have contributed immensely to the understanding and classification of various fruit varieties, including a myriad of apple species. Charles worked meticulously to catalog different apple varieties, contributing significantly to the field’s growing body of knowledge.

    Charles’ work in pomology complemented Andrew’s landscape designs, merging form with function, aesthetics with agriculture. The duo often collaborated, creating designs that were not only visually appealing but also agriculturally productive, embodying a holistic approach to landscape architecture.

    Legacy

    Tragically, Andrew Jackson Downing’s life was cut short in 1852 when he died in a steamboat accident on the Hudson River. Despite his untimely death at the age of 36, his ideas continued to shape American landscape architecture, influencing the design of renowned public spaces, including New York's Central Park.

    Charles Downing continued his work in pomology after his brother’s passing, solidifying his reputation as a leading authority on fruit and helping to propagate a diverse array of fruit varieties across America. The intertwining legacies of the Downing brothers live on, their principles echoing in the gardens, parks, and orchards of today.

    Mentions in this chat

    379: The Intricacies of Cider Co-ferments

    379: The Intricacies of Cider Co-ferments

    Delve deep into the realm of cider co-ferments

    Enjoy this special talk with a tasting of select co-ferments from New York Apple Camp 2023. Hear the discussion on techniques, flavors, and challenges. This talk was hosted by:

    • Dan Pucci, author of "American Cider: A Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage" (2021)
    • Matt Sanford, head cider and wine maker at Rose Hill Farm, New York

    Cider Chat ep 379: Matt Sanford and Dan Pucci Co-ferments talk NY Apple Camp 2023 200x300 Matt Sanford and Dan Pucci

    Co-ferments in this tasting

    All co-ferments where made in New York.

    • Blackduck Cidery Aronius: A unique co-ferment consisting of 92% apples and 8% Aronia berries, which lend a tannic profile to the glass.
    • Rose Hill Cider Pomme Cerise 2020 & 2021 blend | 20% sweet and sour cherries and 80% apples, this blend showcases the layering of flavors over time. 

    • Mentioned - Rose Hill Cider Pearly Dewdrops' traditional fermented drink made of plums. Cuvée with carbonically macerated Shiro, Early Golden, Oblinaya and Satsuma plums, cherries and nectarines that are blended with apple cider. Dark, resinous fruit flavor buoyed by an invigorating sparkle, this is the stonefruit equivalent to a dry, rustic Lambrusco. Wild years fermentation, no filtering or fining, finished in bottle without additives.
    • Metalhouse Cider Tazza: A co-ferment of cabernet Franc skins that resembles wine in smell and taste but lacks the body of wine. It exudes a piquette-like vibe, combining Macoun and Macintosh apple juice with the robustness of Cab Franc.
    • Rose Hill Cider Chiffonner 9% ABV: Comprising 25% Roxybury Russet, 25% Ashmead's Kernel, and 50% Riesling. This unique blend sits in stainless for six months and another year in neutral oak. If it's not solely made of apples, Rose Hill labels it as wine.

     

    When should a ferment be labeled cider vs. wine? Matt Sanford shares Rose Hill's approach.

    - The debate continues: Are co-ferments undermining cider?

    - Ultimately, co-ferments could serve as a gateway to the world of cider for many and with Matt making and other makers show casing what can be done, the future is bright for this category.

    For a comprehensive dive into co-ferments and to expand your cider palate, tune in to Cider Chat's Episode 379.

    Info on the speakers:

    Mentions in this chat

    378: The Inner Realm of the Ice Cider Queen | Eden, VT

    378: The Inner Realm of the Ice Cider Queen | Eden, VT

    Nothing Sharp about the "Ice Cider Queen"

    Eleanor Léger is affectionately dubbed the Ice Cider Queen by many followers, most notably this podcast. She founded Eden Specialty Cider in 2007, the year of the first harvest of apples for producing Ice Cider at Eden.

    The act of freezing apple juice outdoors during the coldest days and nights of the winter to extract the water and then ferment the pure juice into what is known as Ice Cider is not new to Canadian makers just over the border from Eden's Newport Vermont headquarters. What is unique however is how Eden marketed and refined the technique to showcase to this delectable aperitif/digestif to a wider audience.

    Ep 378 Cider Chat Eleanor with glass 200x300 Eleanor Léger

    Many awards later, a White House serving, and a reputation for some of the best Ice Cider in the world is now par for the course for the Queen and her growing realm.  In 2023 Eden is celebrating its fifteenth anniversary and has broadening the business, based in the northeast kingdom of Vermont, to include to two additional brands, Shelburne Vineyard and Iapetus (a natural wine brand).

    In addition to her role as President and CEO of Eden Specialty Ciders, Eleanor is the Board President for the American Cider Association (ACA). This will be her last year in this role, when a new President is elected in 2024. In total she will have served 3 years in this position and discusses her goal during that time of making the Association accessible to makers who produce less than 25,000 gallons per year .

    In this Cider Chat:

    • Focusing on Ice Cider as a niche within the niche of cider making
    • From farmhouse to tasting room - the early days of Eden Specialty Ciders
    • A perfect fit of cider, wine and brand expansion
    • Educating people about dry cider
    • Secret confessions from the Queen
    • Work life balance

    Contact for Eden Specialty Cider, Shelburne Vineyard and Iapetus Wine

    Mentions in this Chat

    377: Fable Farm Fermentory's Co-Evolution of Humanity & Apples | VT

    377: Fable Farm Fermentory's Co-Evolution of Humanity & Apples | VT

    Fable Farm Fermentory's Co-Evolution of Humanity & Apples The Apple Calls Us In | Fable Farm, VT started 15 years ago...

    In this episode hear how brother's Jon and Christopher Piana found their way to Fable Farm and how you can get there and enjoy the bounty too!

    Farm Fermentory episode 377 Cider chat Jon Piana and Chris Piana (200x300) Jon and Chris Piana

    Hear about:

    • Jon and Christopher's back stories
    • Fable Farm's Feast and Field Event
      • Every Thursday during the summer months, enjoy out door music, food, cider, and more libations
    • The Tasting Room
    • The Cave - underneath the huge barn at Fable Farm
    • The Quarterly Wine Club
    • Foraging Apples
    • Native yeasts, apples and grapes
    • Co-ferments

    Farm Fermentory episode 377 Cider Chat 300x200 - Jon opening bottle in Cider Cave Jon opening bottle in Cider Cave

    •  Ciders
      • Walden (7.0%)
        • A small amount of the 2020 pet nat, Emanation, was barreled down to age an additional two years.
      • Emanation (6.0%)
        • 1-2 years in the bottle, this cider has been rolling out since 2015
        • Apples from Walden Heights Nursery and Orchard
        •  
      • Fluxion (6.9%)
        • made with a blend multiple vintages, which is a technique called Solera
        • a spritz of maple syrup is added for the secondary fermentation. At this point the yeast remaining in the bottle get reinvigorated and create bubbles. (this is the short story of what is called traditional method)

    Farm Fermentory episode 377 Cider Chat Feast & Field event 300x200 Farm Fermentory Barn sand Feast & Field event set up

    Contact for Fable Farm Fermentory

    376: Orchard & Cider Variety Research at WHNO | Vermont

    376: Orchard & Cider Variety Research at WHNO | Vermont

    Walden Heights Nursery & Orchard (WHNO) was created in 1997

    This 22 acre farm with 8 acres of orchards on a hillside outside of Hardwick, Vermont in the town of Walden was founded by Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak. It is a sustainably managed and certified organic fruit orchard and nursery. In this chat, we speak with both founders as they share the history and current educational offerings at WHNO.

    376 Todd & Lori WHNO feature photo200x300 Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak (w/ frozen jug of apple juice) at WHNO

    We also discuss how WHNO was awarded a SARE (Sustainable Agricultural Research and Educational Project) grant to study: The evaluations of apple cultivars for hard cider production in the Northeast. The goal of the project as Todd Parlo states it, is “To increase the pool of possibilities for a cider maker. And to get numbers on the constituents of juices of a variety of apple cultivars."

    • 313 apple varieties from WHNO were tested during this project.

    376 Todd in Walden orchard 300x200 Todd in the Walden orchard

    The study was completed and as of 2023 the results of the study can be reviewed via this link online.

    Walk about the orchard with both Todd and Lori at WHNO and hear about just a few of the 600 apples varieties grown here.

    376 feature photo Walden (275 × 275 px)

    Contact for Walden Heights Nursery & Orchard

    Mentions in this Chat

    375: Cider’s Low Carbon Footprint | Wildbranch Cider, Vermont

    375: Cider’s Low Carbon Footprint | Wildbranch Cider, Vermont

    Cedar Hannan began selling his ciders branded as “Wildbranch” in 2020.

    He both forages apples and has a small orchard planted that he planted four years ago on his farm based in Craftsbury, Vermont. The ciders are both wild ferments and occasionally have cultured yeasts too.

    He sells locally at Vermont farmers markets and doesn’t have any immediate plans to increase his production which is currently at 900 gallons per year.

    375 Cedar Hannan of Wildbranch Cider Cedar Hannan

    The Low Carbon Footprint of Cider

    Cedar was originally looking at brewing as a retirement goal, but (as he notes in this episode) there are already a fantastic number of breweries in the surrounding area. In addition, the carbon footprint of beer is a bit larger than that of making cider at a local scale. Thankfully for us all, Cedar went with his hunch and is making Wildbranch Cider his full time gig, having quit his IT job.

    Each of the following is what Cedar looks for when foraging apples or pears for Wildbranch.

    • Flavor  - aroma
    • Tannin
    • Acidity
    • Sugar content

    375 wildbranch cider logo

    Wildbranch Ciders tasted in the Episode

    • The Spiney - Flagship cider 6.8%
      • Try with cheddar cheese and grilled pork chop
    • Golden Russet 8.3%
      • Intense fruitiness, Little bit of cooked apple
    • Perry
      • Made with culinary pears - Barlett’s and Big Earl (a local variety)

    375 Wildbranch Ciderier Pear Perry

    Contact for Wildbranch Cider

    Mentions in this Chat

    374: Bonus Episode! CCLive | NY Apple Camp News!

    374: Bonus Episode! CCLive | NY Apple Camp News!

    Bonus Cider Chat Live on NY Apple Camp

    July 28th - 30th at the Ashokan Center in the Hudson River Valley (on the west side of river) is the first ever NY Apple Camp!

    Elizabeth Ryan of Stone Ridge Orchard who is producing this event catches us up on the scheduled events and talks. 

     Special Kickoff tour

    The weekend begins with an optional tour on Friday focusing on the life of Andrew Jackson Downing. The tour goes to the original site of the Downing Nursery and Downing Park. Then a 2 hour lunch with cider  and off to Esopus  - where the Esopus Spitzenberg originated from.

    Ep: 374 Cider Chat Live Bonus New York Apple Camp

    Hear about all the great happenings at NY Apple Camp 

    The Friday tour is optional and there is a request for donations of $30.

    Mentions in this Cider Chat Live

    373: Orchard Tips for Cold Climates

    373: Orchard Tips for Cold Climates

    Orchardist Ben Applegate on cold climate orchard care

    Ben is the Orchard Manager at Eden Specialty Cider based in northern Vermont and shares his insight on cold climate apple varieties and orchard tips. This chat took place at Eden's orchards based in what is known as the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont in the town of West Charleston. 

    373 feature Ben Applegate 200x300Ben Applegate

    There are 50 Apple varieties at the Eden orchard. Here is a list of just some of the apples discussed in this episode: 

    • Newton Pippin
    • Liberty
    • Stembridge Cluster
    • Rubinette
    • Northern Spy
    • Trembletts Bitter

    Ben discusses which varieties work well in a cold climate, while recommending that as the temperatures continue to rise both in Vermont and globally, he advises to plant trial apples for the changes ahead.

    Tips for new orchardists

    • Why you should do a Soil test before planting and what to do with that knowledge
    • Why pruning too early can offset young trees
    • Which apple tree damaging insects to worry about

    In this Cider Chat episode:

    • We learn about the challenges faced by the young apple trees, such as sun scald and fluctuating temperatures
    • Scythe and Biological Mowing
    • How climate change is affecting traditional production of Ice Cider, which is made by freezing apple juice on the coldest days of the year to freeze the water and then ferment the pure apple juice into what is known as Ice Cider.
    • How acidity of the soil directly affects the acidity of the apples
    • Selection of apple varieties and rootstock is crucial
    • Dwarf tree management
    • Incorporating composted teas for apple trees 
    • The impact of author Micheal Phillips' work

    Contact for Ben Applegate

    Website: http://edenciders.com

    email: mailto:ben@edenciders.com

    Mentions in this Chat

    372: The Science Behind Spontaneous Fermentation

    372: The Science Behind Spontaneous Fermentation

    Cider and Spontaneous Fermentation

    The wild "ambient" yeast found on apples, in the air, on cider presses can all contribute to a spontaneous fermentation within the cider must, which is the juice that has been freshly pressed from a fruit such as apples or grapes and is fermenting. In this episode we hear from Hugues Guichard, who works at the Institut Français des Productions Cidricoles a research institute focusing on cider based in Normandy, France.

    Hugues presented this lecture at CiderCon 2023, which is hosted by the American Cider Association.

    Ep: 372 of Cider Chat - Hugues Guichard at CiderCon 2023 Hugues Guichard at CiderCon 2023

    Allowing a cider to go through a full spontaneous fermentation successfully is a growing trend within the industry as consumer continue to seek "natural" ciders. Hugues provides a complete overview of the French cider industry and the science behind spontaneous ferments.

    • Subscribe to the Cider Chat YouTube Channel to be notified when the  audio of this lecture synced with the power point slide show goes live to the public.
    • Become a Patreon and view video now

    In this lecture

    • Part I: French Cider Industry and IFPC
    • Part II: French Cider ProcessingCider Apples and Harvest
      • Possible contamination by spoiling microorganisms

    • Clarification 
    • Fermentation 
    • Maturation
    • Bottling
    • Conclusion

    Yeast mentioned in this presentation

    • Hanseniaspora is a genus of yeasts, when there is no sulphites in the must
    • Mechnikowia pulcherrima (Mp)

      • On apple and in must (often high population)

      • no development in anaerobioses

    • Hanseniaspora valbyensys (Hv) - apiculate yeast

      • On apple and in must, growth in must

      • 1 to 2 weeks then decreases

      • Sensibility to SO2

    • Saccharomyces uvarum (Su): fermentative yeast

    Bacterias and yeasts in ciders that can create off flavors

    • Acetic acid bacteria (Acetobacter). Often described at Volatile Acidity (VA) which lends a vinegary taste to the cider

    • Zymomonas mobilis (bacteria). off flavors  such as rotten banana, vegetal aromas. There may be a haze formation, high pressure in bottles, and excessive foaming

    • Secundilactobacillus collinoïdes - lactic acid spoilage

    • Brettanomyces anomala - Volatile phenol

    Begin with cidermaking best practices  

    As expected best practices for all fermentation including a spontaneous fermentation require

    • Clean Fruit
    • Hygiene in the cidery
    • Temperature control

    Contact for Hugues Guichard

    Mentions in this Chat

    371: Save Your Back! Mechanical Harvesting of Apples

    371: Save Your Back! Mechanical Harvesting of Apples

    Small, Medium and Large Scale options for Mechanical Harvesting of Apples

    Cornell University Associate Professor of Horticulture Gregory Peck Ph.D and Angry Orchard Head Cidermaker Joe Gaynor provide an in depth study of mechanical tools for orchards of all sizes.

    Ep 371 slide 1 of Mechanical Harvesting PPT

    The presentation took place at CiderCon2023.

    No need to be an orchardist to enjoy this topic on mechanical harvesting of apples. Some of these same tools presented are also used in vineyards for harvesting grapes. Particularly interesting for cider fans and makers alike, is the debunking the myth that apples that fall on the ground can't be used to make cider. Dr Peck provides a great overview on this topic.

    Topics in the Mechanical Harvesting Presentation

    • Comparison of Cider Economies of New York, US and UK
    • Bush Cider Orchards - wide row spacing for mechanical harvesting
    • Cumulative Net Present Value (NPV) using Outsourced Machine Harvesting (~$300/acre)
    • Is it Profitable to Grow Cider Apples in NY?
    • The cost of hand picking - Labor in America
    • Cumulative NPV at Various Returns using Hand or Machine Harvesting
    • Tree-row sweeping and picking up
    • Harvesting off the ground
    • How mechanical harvesting impacts the fruit
    • Options for Small, Medium and Large scale operations
    • Conclusions of this study

    Ep 371 large scale apple harvester

    Contact info for Gregory Peck

    Mentions in this Chat

    370: Innovative Ciders of Domaine Marois | France

    370: Innovative Ciders of Domaine Marois | France

    Antoine Marois is Tantalizing the Taste Buds of Cider Fans

    On a sloping hill on the east side of the picturesque village of Cambremer sits Domaine Marois. The lead up to the home is formidable with a long drive that leads to the barrel room and production facility for the Domaine. Behind the home is a majestic oak tree said to be over 300 years old.

    ep 370 Antoine during recording at barrel of Domaine Marois 200x300 Antoine Marois in the barrel room at the Domaine

    It is here that Antoine and wife Marie Marois reside. Marie is a cider maker in her own right having taken the head cider maker position at Domaine Dupont.

    ep 370 Domaine Marois 200x300 The grand house at Domaine Marois

    In this Chat

    • Where is Domaine Marois located – here we talk about the area.
      • – what to expect when visiting
    • Antoine journey to become a cidermaker after working first with wine.
        • What Antoine bring to cider that he learned from wine.
    • Why haute tige (standard size) trees are important.
    • How an orchard benefits from cows in the orchard
    • Types of Cider Styles at Domaine Marois.
      • Co-ferments
      • Barrels toasted with apple juice
      • wild yeast and cultured yeaast
        • What to expect in the glass
    • Visiting Domaine Marois
    • Future plans for Domaine Marois

    ep 370 300+ year old oak tree at Domaine Marois 300+ year old oak tree at Domaine Marois

    Contact info for Domaine Marois

    ep 370 the moped in the barrel room at Domaine Marois 300x200 The moped in the barrel room at Domaine Marois

    Mentions in this Chat

    369: Baba Yaga & Holistic Orchards | NC

    369: Baba Yaga & Holistic Orchards | NC

    Discover Kordick Family Farm and Baba Yaga

    Hear from Dorsey and daughter Brittany, the mother and daughter team at Korkdick Family Farm with Baba Yaga as their guide. Dorsey is a long time apple fan and even attended Peter Mitchell's cidermaking courses in the UK early on making her one of the first American's to take the UK course. Brittany studied agriculture and the two together make a dynamic team. Their main crop is apples and they apply holistic orchard practices.

    369 Illustration Baba Yaga's Apples of Eternal Youth Illustration for story of Kordick Family Farm called; Baba Yaga's Apples of Eternal Youth

    In this Chat

    • The story behind Kordick Farm
      • Baba Yaga inspiration
    • How it works for a mother and daughter team – do you have help?
    • The orchard,
      • number of apple varieties and pear (southern apple varieties?)

    369 Kordick garlic growing on hay between apple trees Garlic growing between Apple Trees on top of the hay mulch

      • root stock that works.
      • orchard practices
        • What do you no longer do and what is working (why) in our warming climate
        • Root stock used for that climate

    369 Kordick intercropping between apple trees The Kordicks practice intercropping between apple trees

      • Who is your market
      • What you sell
      • Kordicks Esty story
    • Advice for new orchardist and women in particular who are interested in following a similar path.

    Baba Yaga Renditions designed by Brittany Kordick

    episode 369 Baba Bunny Kordick Family Farm 300x200

    episode 369 Baba Bee Kordick Family Farm 300x200

     

    Contact info for the Kordick Family Farm

    Website: https://www.kordickfamilyfarm.com/

    Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/KordickFamilyFarm?ref=shop_sugg

    Mentioned in this Chat

    368: Who named this apple Northern Spy?

    368: Who named this apple Northern Spy?

    Spy Novels Step Aside for an Apple of a Tale

    The Northern Spy is a delightful apple used both for baking and cidermaking! At one time it was a major export commodity due to its lack of bruising when packed in barrels. As far as apples go it is a winner for so many reasons, yet no one knows why it is named Northern Spy. there are certainly many hyposthesis on the subject. In episode 226: Northern Spy and the Underground Railroad Ryan Monkman of Fieldbird Cider reads a fictional essay on the topic (do listen as it is grand).

    Ep 368 Cider Chat Kerry Wilkins Kerry Anne Wilkins

    In this episode we hear from Apple Sleuth or self proclaimed "Malus Absurdum" Kerry Anne Wilkins who is on the trail of the Northern Spy. Professionally Kerry works as a hospice nurse, but her love of apples and set her on a journey to find the story behind the naming of the Northern Spy.

    Ep 368 cider chat Herman Chapin headstone 200x300 Herman Chapin is responsible for propagating the Northern Spy

    In this Chat

    • Meeting the John Bunkers, a premier Apple Detective
    • What we know so far about the Northern Spy's history
    • Apple Sleuthing tips
      • Libraries
      • Oral History
      • Newspaper
      • Cemeteries
      • Land maps
    • Tracking the Northern Spy to East Bloomfield, New York
    • A Martha Steward faux pas that needed to be corrected
    • The Northern Spy marker in East Bloomfield
    • Herman Chapin and the Chapin family connection to the Northern Spy

    ]Northern Spy marker 200x300 East Bloomfield road marker reads:

    The original Northern Spy Apple Tree Stood about 14 Rods south of this spot in a seedling orchard.
    Planted by Herman Chapin about 1800
    The Early Joe and Melon Apple also originated in this orchard.

    The quest continues

    Kerry is still on the quest to discover the history of the Northern Spy and hopefully the reason why this apple was named as such. If you have info please send it along her way. Recipes, book mentions, oral tales are all welcomed.

    Contact info for Kerry Anne Wilkins

    email: kawwilkins@yahoo.com

    Want Kerry's postal address to send a letter? Contact info@ciderchat.com

    Mentions in this Chat

    • Listen to episode 290 with Tattiebolge CiderWorks Acme, Pennsylvania - as mentioned in this episode it is building out!
    • Canuck Cider Cup winners for 2023
    • Who is John Bunker America's Apple Detective? There are many episodes with John feature. Begin with this one  https://ciderchat.com/028-john-bunker-apple-identification/ and then google Cider Chat John Bunker for more from this American treasure of a man!
    • Bottles on My Desk - Listen to the latest episode at the Cider Chat YouTube Channel via playlist "bottles on my desk"

    367: Get Out of Jail Free Card w/Cider

    367: Get Out of Jail Free Card w/Cider

    Weed, to Jail, and Freed by Cider

    There are so many title options for this episode, that all center around time spent in jail for one burgeoning cidermaker. "Busted Weed Grower Saved by Cider", was one that almost made the cut.  But this podcaster wanted to find something uplifting for Sean McFarland who was a cannabis grower ,who did get busted and was from all accounts able to survive prison life due to support from his family and a new found passion for all things cider. This tale has all the predicable twists and turns one would expect when a big weed grower ends up in jail, but what makes this story completely unique is Sean himself.

    Ep 367 300x200 Sean's Prison ID

    As Sean sees it, if you are satisfied with your life as it is now why regret what got you there. His optimism plays a lead role in his narrative and that alone is worth a listen.

     Ep 367 Cider Chat 367 Marcelo and Sean in prison uniform 300x200 Sean and his then future wife who rekindled a childhood friendship while he was in jail

    In this Chat

    • Sean's journery from army brat to horticulture studies, squash growing and then cannabis
    • Behind the scene of a mega pot bust
    • Federal laws and Jail terms for cannabis growers
    • Preparing for prison life
    • Family matters
    • Finding love while in prison
    • Finding cider
    • No regrets
    • Minnesota law for felons who want to start a cidery

    Ep 367 300x200 Sean and family in legally grown hemp[/caption]

    Contact for Blackshire Farm Cider

    Website: https://www.blackshirefarms.com/

    ]367 200x300 Sean working cider mill Sean working old family cider mill that has been rigged with salvaged parts

    Mentions in this chat

    • Send your questions to info@ciderchat.com about fermentation and yeast for an upcoming Q&A with Fermentis - Yeast and Fermentation Solutions for Cidermakers
    • Subscribe to eCiderNews

    366: Acclaimed Cider w/Minimal Intervention Tom Oliver

    366:  Acclaimed Cider w/Minimal Intervention Tom Oliver

    Not only is the cider acclaimed, so too is the Maker

    Tom Oliver is just as acclaimed as his cider which makes Oliver's Cider and Perry Co. a global hit on two fronts. He is affable, engaging and knows his way around social media likely due to his work with the Scottish Rock Rock Band, The Proclaimers. Cidermakers are not well known for reposting news stories about themselves and their product, but Tom is a master of this one simple act that keeps Oliver's in the news and endears him to media. That singular step alone is just one of many giveaways that Tom provides to the slow moving cider industry.

    This topic is key for makers looking to up level their online presence, but it was not the topic of conversation in this episode. Instead Ria and Tom caught up after the world shut down for the past 2 plus years at CiderCon 2023 held in Chicago.

    366 Tom Oliver 200x300 episode 366 Cider Chat

    In this chat

    • How minimal intervention is key for Oliver's Cider and Perry
    • What is Farmhouse cider
      • Spontaneously fermented - wild yeast
      • Tannic cider and Perry Pears

    At Oliver's there is no measuring of sugar or fiddling with the cider. In fact, Tom can be heard in most interviews saying "Don't fiddle with cider."

    What's new for this acclaimed makers and cidery?

    • More c0-ferments and collaborations!
    • Bâtonnage
      • This is a technique used by winemakers, where the lees (yeast cells) are stirred into solution.
        • Nano proteins are the biggest benefit of Bâtonnage
          • They release into the cider providing a perception of sweetness and body with out the sugar
        • Need at least 9 months to a year to get the nano proteins

        There are short term benefits.

        1. Yeast produces less carbon dioxide and bubbles.
          • They slow down after the first primary ferment.
          • Fermentation may have stopped but there is still sugar left.
        2. Lees absorb off aromas, except for H2S rotting egg smell.
        3. Bâtonnage helps to maintain a reductive state.
          • Full reduction - rotting smell is a type of reduction. Which helps protect the cider from oxidization and protect the flavor components.

    Find out more about Bâtonnage by going to Episode 233: Ask Ryan Quarantine Quad Series where Ryan Monkman of Fieldbird Cider in Prince Edward County Canada provides an in depth overview of Bâtonnage and Maderisation (where the barrels are cooked).

    Contact info for Oliver's Cider and Perry Company

    Mentions in this chat

    • Send your questions to info@ciderchat.com about fermentation and yeast for an upcoming Q&A with Fermentis - Yeast and Fermentation Solutions for Cidermakers
    • Subscribe to eCiderNews

    365: A Fantastical Indescribable Drink | Cider

    365:  A Fantastical Indescribable Drink | Cider

    Is Cider Truly Indescribable?

    There isn't one definitive language or lexicon for cider, which adds to its indescribable mystique. The ongoing debate around what cider is or isn't or should be doesn't help. It certainly feels like a present day problem defining cider, but is it? Or has this debate been going on for years?

    To help us get to the root of this indescribable dilemma, we are featuring "A Systematic Approach to Tasting Cider" as presented by Richie Brady at CiderCon 2023, an annual trade conference hosted by the American Cider Association. This is Richie's second appearance on Cider Chat. We first heard about his research on the lexicon of cider in Episode 286: A Living Language of Cider.

    Richie provides a road map, complete with historical references and present day trends that helps us sort through this indescribable mess!

    Episode 365 Richie Brady presenting at CiderCon 300x200 Richie Brady presenting at CiderCon 2023

    In this indescribable Chat

    • Richie Brady's background
    • Difficulties in describing taste: Language
    • Proposed Systematic Approach to Tasting Cider
    • Considering Cider's Lexicon

    Episode 365 slide 9 on difficulty of describing cider 300x200

    Mentions in this Chat

    • @Sabatinis_Bottleshop - has a tasting room and served Domain Dupont Pommeau
    • April 28th Kickoff Party - EsoTerra Ciderworks
    • Fermentis - Yeast and Fermentation Solutions for Cidermakers
    • Subscribe to eCiderNews

    Haven't downloaded this episode yet? Here it is again for your listening pleasure.

    364: If the Mandalorian Tended Orchards

    364: If the Mandalorian Tended Orchards

    The Way of the Orchards

    Colin Scott has spent his life in orchards, learning how to tended them with his parents, Edward and Janice as role models.  This episode is a testament of what it looks like to embody a craft as part of your way of life. Colin like many orchardist may not be a Mandalorian, a character from Star Wars who is now featured in a stand alone tv series depicting a a clan-based culture composed of members from multiple species and bound by a common creed, language and code, but he like many orchardist who grew up tending trees from an early age see orchard care as A Way of Life.

    This episode first released in Season 2 of Cider Chat on episode 093 and was re-produced for Season 8. The info is evergreen and timely for those of us who love orchards and want to broaden our own knowledge base.

    E.J. Scott Orchard was purchased in 1954. (Note that the first initial of Colin's parents in the business name) Today Colin is running the orchard and the apple storage facility site which is discussed at the beginning of this episode. E & J Scott Orchard also has apricots, blackberries, blueberries, cherries, grapes, nectarines, peaches, pears, plums, quince, raspberries, & strawberries. Their main store is in Ashfield, MA and is open Sat & Sun 10-6 July through May. Organic duck eggs from their heritage breed Ancona ducks are also available upon request.

    Colin using his dad's grafting tool

    We begin this chat with Colin inside one of the Apple storage rooms.

    What affects the Apple's ripening?

    • temperature
    • ethylene gas - apples off gas
    • Apples are placed in a CA room (Controlled Atmosphere) where both temperature, oxygen and the off gases are controlled.

    If apples don't have oxygen they don't ripen. Colin and I discuss the "delicate" process of storing apples or what he called "putting them to sleep".

    Apple storage tip: Take your apples out of the refrigerator every once in a while and let them off gas. That will help them last a bit longer.

    E.J. Scott Orchard New and old grafting tools episode 364 Cider Chat New and old grafting tools

    Next in this chat we talk about

    • the beginnings of the orchard and what they grew and where they are going with the growing cider market
    • Root Stock for grafting a tree - dwarf or standard
    • Shifting his market to cider apples
    • What do you look for in a root stock

    "The idea behind grafting is to take the variety that you want and put it on the root stock you want. The vigor of the variety contributes to the size of the tree."

    The numbering system of the root stock defines the size of the tree or a percentage of the size of the tree

    • M rootstock 9, 11, 18, 26 what does that stand for? If you put a Macintosh on standard tree rootstock and a Macintosh on a 26, you would get 30 -40-% of the standard one. A M118 or M111 are going to be 6--70% the size, which means they will be almost as big as a standard tree.

    Today Colin is using Geneva root stock, because he is finding it resistant to Fire Blight. A nasty disease that can kill the tree.

    Geneva root stock numbering system is random too. Colin is using Geneva 41 & 935. They will be 30-40% of the standard tree. He uses a bench graft on his root stock.

    Episode 364 The bladder press at E.J. Scott Orchard

    The secret to grafting per Colin

    • Lining up the cambium layers
    • Getting it airtight

    We also chat pruning an apple tree, especially a tree that you are attempting to revive after years of neglect.

    Contact E & J Scott Orchard

    Mentions in this chat

    • Oesco, Inc - professional grade supplies for orchards and cidermakers.

    Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

    Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.