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    Parenting in the Trenches with Karen Peters

    Hey weary parent. Parenting is a tough gig, but we've got your back. Join child and family therapist, and mom-in-the-trenches, Karen Peters and learn about skills to support you in supporting your kids, while laughing and getting real about the crazy sticky messiness of life with kiddo's.
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    Episodes (66)

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Tips and strategies for educators & parents who want to update their approach to sexual health education

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Tips and strategies for educators & parents who want to update their approach to sexual health education

    If you are a parent, please take a second to forward this to all the educators in your world who have the important responsibility of providing education to kids and youth about their sexual health, their body health and their physical and sexual development.

    Wherever you're at in your knowledge about how to educate kids about sex, this is not a static topic - it is hugely dynamic and changing. Similar to keeping up with fast changes in the digital world, knowing how to keep current with appropriate and inclusive languaging around reproductive health, gender and how kids are communicating with one another about sex, is a topic that in the last decade has many of us educators and parents scrambling to know how to keep current. 

    Please listen carefully to this conversation and notice what happens for you as you soak it in. Does it empower you, make you uncomfortable, challenge your assumptions, prepare you better for what kids are bringing to you? Whatever reactions you have, my hope is it moves you in a direction that offers kids and youth more safety, more inclusion and more understanding. 

    This episode is the last one in our 4-part series on Our Kids & Sexual Health. In the previous episode show notes we share some resources for further learning that you might want to take a moment to check out. We've included books and websites appropriate for your kids of all ages, for specific topics like sex education with people with disabilities, and information for you to explore that might help you shift your own understanding how you were taught about sexual health by parents, educators, media, and peers.

    Thank you for learning with us!

    Karen

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Sex Ed considerations for people with disabilities (visible & invisible)

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Sex Ed considerations for people with disabilities (visible & invisible)

    Parents and educators (and if you are one of these, please share with the other in your life - we're all contributors to our kids' learning),

    This is an episode near and dear to me. It's also really special to Ashten because of her work with and friendships with people with disabilities. If you are raising or supporting a child or youth with a disability (either physical or mental), you'll know how much more complicated it feels to talk with them about their sexual health and development. It causes us to consider HOW they learn information, what's going to be relevant for them, and when to bring the information up. We discuss the vulnerabilities that come with interacting with systems of health care and/or education that make assumptions, aren't sure what questions to ask or how to provide answers that meet their needs, and inadvertently leave gaps for those who need more from care providers.

    This conversation with Ashten made me think through so many important factors - things I'll know to bring up with families I'm supporting and also safe guards I can put in place for my own kids. Here are a couple of specific resources we thought you might want to know about after you listen to our conversation:

    respectability.org/resources/sexual-education-resources for young adults with developmental and intellectual disabilities
    www.shift-education.com (Jessy Wollen) is a local sex educator in BC's lower mainland who has great resources for diverse learners.


    Learning alongside you,
    Karen

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Baseball, pizza, & rethinking the meaning of consent

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: Baseball, pizza, & rethinking the meaning of consent

    Ok parents,
    Let's take a moment to reflect. What messaging did you receive about your body and about sex growing up? Where did those messages come from? Were they all super obvious and explicit or were they sort of slippery and normalized? Do any of those messages now seem harmful or shame-filled to you? 

    Now let's consider the messaging around consent. How would you define that concept and how would you go about explaining that to your kids? Of course the depth in which we talk to our kids about this looks different as they grow, but our approach or beliefs about consent matter all along the way. 

    Today we're unpacking some of the old metaphors we use that might be setting up unhealthy messaging about what our kids should and shouldn't be okay with in terms of physical and sexual interactions, how to go about asking for someone's consent, and some of the gendered factors that need some overhaul.

    This topic is one of Ashten and my favorites, so I hope you'll join us and share this with your parenting friends. It's just too important for us to keep to ourselves.

    If you haven't yet listened to the previous 2 episodes in this series, I'd really encourage you to do that and to take a look at those show notes for further reading/learning suggestions Ashten has provided us with. I've already ordered a few new books to read with my kids...just waiting for the delivery to arrive!

    Glad you've joined us,
    Karen & Ashten

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: HOW to talk with kids about sex & body health

    Our Kids & Sexual Health: HOW to talk with kids about sex & body health

    Dear parents,
    Does this topic make you a little nervous? Unsure where to begin? Let's tackle this together and maybe it'll feel a little less scary on the other side of it. Ashten Black is a sexual health educator who removes shame from the equation, recognizes the stickiness of this topic and aims to reassure parents of both the invaluable role they play in educating their kids/teens about sexual development, health and relationships, and that what parents bring to the table is intimate knowledge about who their kids are and what they hope to foster with them through open communication when equipped to do so. She's here to help us out with that.

    As a parent of two girls at very different stages of development and also kids with hugely differing personalities, like and dislikes, I get how trying to figure out what to bring up, when to bring it up and more importantly the "how" of bringing it up throughout their years, feels complicated. It also comes with my own worries, background of understanding (both what I do and don't know), and what values I was taught surrounding my body, my sexuality, my boundaries and my interactions in relationships. If we want to really create a platform for having open, honest, supportive and shame-free conversations about sex with our kids, we need to wade through all these things and find within ourselves the "readiness" to both set that up well and keep it going.

    Like in any episode, we can only cover so much and we know this topic is oh so loaded, so Ashten was kind enough to leave us with these amazing resource suggestions for further learning:

    "Sex Positive Talks to Have with Kids" by Melissa Pintor Carnagey. This book also includes a very comprehensive resource list.


    Websites to explore:

    www.amaze.org

    www.kidshealth.org


    Joining you in this trench,
    Karen

    Neurodiverse families: On being your child's "external brain", with parents from FamilySmart

    Neurodiverse families: On being your child's "external brain", with parents from FamilySmart

    As we near the end of our special series on neurodiverse families, we're talking about a role caregivers often need to assume when raising kids who aren't neurotypical - the role of "external brainers". While it's a phase for most parents, this role can be more intensive and longer lasting when your child has ADHD, Autism, FASD, or other diagnoses that have executive functioning struggles attached to them.

    Have a listen to Lori and Sheila, both parents who have and continue to walk this journey personally, and also come alongside parents in the thick of supporting their child with mental health challenges in their work with FamilySmart. If you are a parent who feels overwhelmed, confused, misunderstood, or under supported and you live in BC, Canada or access supports through CASA in Alberta, please consider reaching out to FamilySmart and see what lifelines they have to offer you. The parents who work for FamilySmart bring their lived experience, their compassion and their resources to the table so you are less alone as you navigate parenting kids with complex mental health and developmental needs. They have no waitlist, are available in every community across BC and their services are free.

    If you want discounted access to my 10 Strategies for CoRegulation course, just enter the code COREG2021 before the end of 2021 and you'll receive 20% off. It'll provide you with a toolkit to help you and your child regulate intense emotions and meltdowns in ways that serve them well.

    Standing in the mud with you,
    Karen, Lori & Sheila

    Neurodiverse families: When feeling unsafe shapes our developing brains, with Dr. Geddes

    Neurodiverse families: When feeling unsafe shapes our developing brains, with Dr. Geddes

    Dear parents, caregivers and support people of kids who have lived through traumatic experiences,

    We know how hard parenting in healing ways really is. We also know more now about how best to go about it than we did just 10 years ago. Dr. Chuck Geddes shares his own findings after serving over 300 families through his Complex Care Intervention program, and brings his authentic and compassionate lens to the conversation. He's absolutely passionate about and dedicated to helping kids in BC's foster care system and in adoptive families thrive past their trauma.

    Kids who have come from hard places need such unique care. Their output can be harsh, confusing and seem counter intuitive to building healthy attachments with adults, making it such a true labour of love for parents who go about regulating their child's nervous system over and over....and over....yes, and over again. It's slow healing, but thanks to wise people in the field of trauma-informed care, we have a much better sense about what's possible and what direction we need to head in to get there.

    After you listen to today's episode, you might feel like you want more support. Chuck and I agreed to honour that ongoing learning with discounted access to our online courses. We've got your back.

    If you want tried and true strategies for coregulating, my 45 min webinar is available to you at 20% off during this ND Families series - just enter coupon code COREG2021 on the purchase page and watch it whenever you're ready, or re-watch it as often as you like!

    Use promo code CTRPARENTING for 20% off any of the online courses offered by my guest until the end of 2021. For all course details and for registration, go to Complextrauma.ca

    To all you brilliant and brave caregivers out there, we see the love you pour in and thank you for how dedicated you are to this healing parenting gig,

    Karen

    Neurodiverse families: The ins & outs of Sensory Processing challenges with Kim Barthel

    Neurodiverse families: The ins & outs of Sensory Processing challenges with Kim Barthel

    Dear parents, standing in the confusing, slippery mud of neurodivergence....we're here for ya.

    Does your child cover their ears for sounds that others aren't seemingly bothered by? Do they rock or bite their hands to soothe themselves? Do they struggle with the textures of certain clothing or strongly resist wearing things like socks or coats? The range of our sensory experiences and how we're able to synthesize those in the brain result in very different levels of distress.

    If it feels impossible to figure out what is going on or how to help your child cope with that felt distress (or if it's sending you as a parent to grab the white flag of helpless defeat), please join today's conversation exploring the ins and outs of sensory processing.

    Kim Barthel is world-renowned for her intuitive approach to climbing inside the worlds of those who are neurodiverse. She speaks extensively on topics such as emotional regulation, trauma, neurobiological shaping and more, looking to provide opportunities for healing, which she describes as being understood and accepted, not "fixed".

    Let's find out how to both accept our individual capacities while striving for ways to support and improve functioning so our connections with our kids can grow and their unique gifts to the world can shine.

    If you haven't heard Kim speak before, spoiler alert....you're in for a real treat!

    Oh, and WAIT! Almost forgot. We wanted to leave you with a gift - both Kim and I have online courses supporting those in the trenches which you can access at 20% off with these coupon codes:

    10 Strategies for CoRegulation, with Karen Peters {code COREG2021} - offer expires end of 2021
    CBT for the Family: Tools for Life, with Karen Peters {code CBT2021} - offer expires end of 2021
    Autism Matters, Relationship Matters, with Kim Barthel {code TRENCHES20AM} - offer available until Nov. 8, 2021
    Trauma-Sensitive Practice, with Kim Barthel {code TRENCHES20} - offer available until Dec. 6, 2021

     

    Just click on the course link and use the code when you purchase it! 

    In the trenches with you,
    Karen & Kim

    Neurodiverse families: Supporting your child's executive functioning, with EF Coach Fleur van der Heul

    Neurodiverse families: Supporting your child's executive functioning, with EF Coach Fleur van der Heul

    Dear parents,

    Do you regularly find yourselves puzzled when you step back and watch your child struggle with things like packing their bags, initiating tasks, managing time, transitioning well from one thing to the next, seem to lose focus super easily, or can't get a project done and handed in? Do you fill in the gaps by making charts and lists for them, giving them warnings about when something will end, or set timers or alarms to cue them to brush their teeth, set the table or leave for school?

    You aren't alone. There are many functions tethered to the part of the brain that incidentally, develops last. We all know that our kids aren't born with executive functioning and that they learn it through being taught and by practicing it. However, many kids who are considered "neurodivergent" instead of "neurotypical", experience a different track of development and the learning pace of those skills, often making parents confused about why they can't seem to tackle the same tasks as their peers in the same ways.

    We're talking today about how to take a pulse on what our kids are currently capable of, how to nurture the development of their executive functioning effectively, and when we need to manage our own expectations and shape our parenting strategies to fit their way of processing or learning.

    Let's dive in together. As the parent of a child who is neurodivergent and as someone who loves supporting parents in the thickness of this particular trench, I'm truly with you.

    Have a listen!

    And if you haven't heard yet, my 10 Strategies for Coregulation webinar is up for grabs until the end of 2021 at a discount in case you want to get super practical about helping your strong-feeling child through those overload meltdowns. Just use this Coupon Code: COREG2021.

    Wishing you true regulation,
    Karen

    Neurodiverse families: The myths and mirrors of coregulation, with Lisa Dion

    Neurodiverse families: The myths and mirrors of coregulation, with Lisa Dion

    Dear parents,

    You've probably heard me talk about coregulation before - that's because it was a game changer for me as a mom of a regularly dysregulated kiddo and there was no way I was going to keep that gold a secret! In today's episode, I surprise my guest Lisa Dion, with a story about the time I showed up at one of her conferences on the heels of taking my daughter to the hospital. Tune in to hear the details and to dive deep with us into those pits us parents tend to panic in - the ones that feel so dark and so deep, that we're scared - scared of what these overload episodes mean for our kids and for us. If you've been there, you get it, and this episode is for you.

    This will be a safe space to learn about how to use the emotional data from our kids and from within us, to mirror and model a shift back to connection and to safety. The goal isn't to be calm or not to feel, it's to be safe while the feelings all happen. That goes for you too, parents!

    If you feel overwhelmed and lost, I've been there. And when Lisa held a light at the top of the pit for me, I was led down a much better path - one I could actually translate into real life and would take my authentic emotional experience into account. I took 10 of those coregulation strategies and put them in an online webinar so that other parents could grab the Coles notes and start feeling a sense of hope right away. Throughout this series and until the end of 2021, you can purchase this at a discount here with this code: COREG2021. I sincerely hope it brings you some of the tools you've been hungry for.

    To read more about Lisa's resources for parents, check her stuff out HERE. And if you're someone in a professional position supporting kids, check out her Synergetic Play Therapy site and related resources!

    Bringing our full connected, authentic selves to this conversation,
    Karen

    Neurodiverse families: On being Autistic, with Kristy Forbes

    Neurodiverse families: On being Autistic, with Kristy Forbes

    Dear parents,

    I'm not going to say much about today's episode other than to say I am here to learn and to facilitate a conversation that is meant to be transformative in your perspectives on what it means to parent or support Autistic children and youth. Today's guest will blow your mind. Trust me. Nuff said. Just join us and spread the word in the neurodivergent community.

    Let's do this! Together.

    Karen

    P.S. We are continuing to offer the 10 Strategies for Co-Regulation online intensive webinar for 20% off until the end of 2021. If you are finding this series on neurodiverse families meaningful, and are struggling with supporting regulation for your child, register for the webinar here using coupon code COREG2021.

    Please follow Kristy and the amazing work she's doing to support neurodivergent families. You can find her on Facebook, or on IG @_kristyforbes, or on her inTune Pathways site.

    Neurodiverse Families: Me & ADHD, a child's perspective

    Neurodiverse Families: Me & ADHD, a child's perspective

    Sometimes I just want to crawl inside my kid's ADHD brain and wade through all the things going on in there. To my neurotypical brain, hers seems very busy, chaotic, chronically hungry, and sort of like a 24/7 fireworks show. Like other parents of neuro-diverse kids, we work overtime to keep up with them, to stay ahead of the curve, to keep them safe, to figure out what motivates them and what helps them navigate a world built to suit neurotypical ones. The journey (thus far) has been full of extreme highs and lows for both of us. She has taught me over the years to appreciate the gifts that come with having ADHD and to constantly stay curious about what's going to work and what won't.

    After months of discussing with her what parts of her story she wanted to share and why, we landed at today's conversation where I ask her questions that lead the rest of us a little bit closer to being able to crawl inside that spectacular and complex ADHD brain. I'm beyond proud of her for how carefully she thought her intentions for participating and for all the learning she's done in her 10.5 years.

    What we don't talk about today, is how much of her lived out ADHDness has affected us as parents - that's an interview for another day. What I can share here for context, with her permission, is that you might find what she shares to feel not that difficult, but where we've come from has not been easy. ADHD in her earlier, undiagnosed years, looked more like daily 4 hour full-on dysregulated meltdowns, attempting to jump out of moving vehicles when she was 2, bystanders calling security about the toddler in the swimming pool changeroom, and a epically long sleep disorder with night terrors to boot. She rarely responded to soothing attempts, was predictably unpredictable, and too fast and risky to stay ahead of. She made our hearts race on the regular. And we love her just as passionately as we struggled to find effective ways to parent her.  In the struggle, it can be hard to feel like we're effective and that we're on the same team as our kids. I'm grateful to be on a leg of the journey now where I can see there was no easier way to get to where we're at and I'm so proud of her.

    If you're a parent whose child has those intense meltdowns where their emotions have literally hijacked their thinking brains, you aren't alone and there are some practical things you can do to help them regulate and get their (and your) feet back on the ground. I've compiled them in this 45 min webinar so you don't have to do weeks of research to figure out what works. AND....during our series on Neurodiverse Families, you can access this webinar here at 20% off with this Coupon Code: COREG2021

    My daughter and I wish you and your kids strong connection building and ways of navigating the bumps and bruises together,
    Karen

    Special Episode: Honouring Grandparents

    Special Episode: Honouring Grandparents

    Letter from the Trenches

    Dear parents & grandparents,

    Some of the more "regular" relationships in our lives get overlooked, under-appreciated or just not reflected upon out loud. I don't know about you, but when a child offers their heartfelt impressions about their relationships with parents, sibs or grandparents, it melts me instantly. 

    As with all relationships, there are healthy parts and unhealthy ones, conflicted ones and absent ones. Those can bring about real hurt and tender aching, longing for something more. Today we're honouring the parts that work - those dynamics between grandkids and grandparents that are nurturing, present and meaningful. The ones that bring smiles, good memories and form traditions. I hope it brings light to what is and what can be. Enjoy!

    Karen

    Ask Me Anything: Part 2

    Ask Me Anything: Part 2

    Dear Parents,
    Holy noodles, you ask some great questions! I'm so grateful to all the listeners out there who sent in their mental health and family life related questions. Today we get into the struggles surrounding emotional dysregulation, family dynamics and rejection sensitivity. It's been fun to reflect on these and share some of my thoughts. If you missed part 1, you can go back and catch {S7.E1}, and today we tackle part 2.

    I've built some tools for your toolkit that apply to some of the questions submitted, so if you think those might be helpful for you, you can find them HERE. Check them out and pass them along!

    If the topics I cover inspire you to throw yours in the mix, it's not too late. I love hearing from parents and carer of kids about questions they want covered in the podcast. You can email me at karenpeters@thrive-life.ca or shoot me a PM on SM @karen peters, rcc.

    Hope you're having a great week!
    Karen

    Ask Me Anything: Part 1

    Ask Me Anything: Part 1

    Hey parents,
    So I was planning to take the summer months off in terms of podcast episodes, but then got a little carried away with topics I wanted to cover. I quickly filled up most of the summer weeks but had 2 vacant ones and thought, wouldn't it be great to get YOU to tell me what I should cover? And "ask me anything" was born. So....today is part 1 of 2 and I'm going to speak to the questions parents have thrown my way over the past 2 months - spoiler alert - there are some amazingly crafted questions from listeners you don't wanna miss. I ended up with so many good ones that I need both this and next episode to cover them all. Have a listen and don't forget to come back for part 2 next week.

    Here are some resources I think would help you out further if the question topics covered today resonate:

    If you are blending your family, check out Rules & Boundaries in your Blended Family and Bond with your Stepchild.

    If you are adoptive or waiting parents, and you want some help along your journey, check out Adoption: What to do while you wait, an online course for couples, or related blog articles in our resource library. Also, stay tuned for adoption related episodes in Parenting in the Trenches coming out this fall!

    In the mud with you,
    Karen

    Grief & Loss: When children grieve

    Grief & Loss: When children grieve

    Dear parents,

    When children and youth grieve, they can express loss in ways that aren't always so clear to adults, making it challenging to know how to identify when they are processing loss and how to support them through it. Elsje Hannah is an experienced grief and loss therapist who has joined us today to offer some insight into what our kids might be experiencing after a significant loss.

    It's so hard to watch our babies hurt, no matter what age they are. If you have a child who has lost a loved one, a pet, or has walked through a significant life loss such as divorce, a change in communities or schools, or anything else that meant the world to them, we see you and want to offer some support. I hope you find our conversation helpful.

    For further resources, you can check out the Canadian Virtual Hospice or read more about Elsje's counselling and retreat services in Salt Spring, Cloverdale and Fort Langley, BC here.

    If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast page, I'd encourage you to do so - it will allow me to send along relevant resources connected to our discussions in the episodes. In particular, this episode's resources include a pdf list of grief related books recommended by our guest. You won't want to miss out on these valuable, vetted tools. Subscribe here.

    Grief & Loss: When you lose a child

    Grief & Loss: When you lose a child

    Dear Parents,
    Words for when you've lost your baby? Your tiny one or your grown one? There are none, so you won't find me trying to offer you any. What we can do, is witness your pain, your own meaning-making and your journey through unimaginable grief. My heart is with you, wherever you're at in this moment and regardless of how many years or anniversaries have passed. 

    Today's conversation is happening with a therapist who specializes in grief and loss processing, who understands trauma and who has walked in the trenches of having lost her own child. Join us today in the quiet spaces of honoring loss & love, grappling with the heartache and finding our own anchors for growing life around the devastating holes left behind.

    Beside you,
    Karen

    Grief & Loss: When you lose a parent

    Grief & Loss: When you lose a parent

    Dear Parents who have lost or are losing their own parents,

    I've been there and am still there. I want you to have permission to grieve the way you need to, and to have a safe witness to your pain, your memories, your love and every single emotion that flows through you in the wake of your loss. 

    The conversation between Jill and I meant so much to me - I value her approach so much and the tender but real work she does with clients who have experienced trauma and loss. She's gold and if you have a listen today, I believe you'll find her that way too. If you missed last week's episode, consider adding that to your listen-list because we talk about some foundational ideas connected to everyday losses and the grieving that comes with it. 

    May you feel understood and valued. May you feel your own permission to grieve come through.

    In this together,
    Karen

    Grief & Loss: Life losses

    Grief & Loss: Life losses

    Dear Parents, and in this case, all fellow humans,

    This trench applies to us all. With life, comes loss. And while that can be tough to face or accept, life losses demand things of us. They demand that we feel a reaction to them, that we stretch ourselves to find meaning in them, and learn to adapt or grow around them in ways we hadn't anticipated needing to grow. Today Jill and I talk about the layers of grief, the mess of the process, the ways of witnessing and how to support one another well. I truly hope you'll join us because it's a lived experience we've all had, and for many of us, we've experienced more life losses in this past year, requiring us to pivot and face unexpected change.

    Jillian Hart is a therapist at ThriveLife Counselling & Wellness. She also is the co-founder and supervisor for Soul Matters Counselling, a not-for-profit agency offering reduced-cost counselling to remove barriers to accessing support for better mental health.

    Jill shared this list of books for further reading and support through our grief. The last three are great for both kids and adults alike:
    A Grief Observed- C. S. Lewis

    Tear Soup - Pat Schiebert & Chuck DeKlyen

    Grief is Like a Snowflake - Julia Cook

    The Invisible String - Patrice Karst 


    Sit with us and let's witness one another's grief in the face of loss,
    Karen

    Community Care: What it really looks like to be the village

    Community Care: What it really looks like to be the village

    Letter from the Trenches

    Dear Parents,

    HOLY CONVERSATION, BATMAN! Michelle's got the goods on what it truly looks like to raise a family with the village mentality. I really hope you'll join us for this beautiful window into community care - its ups and downs, its challenges and strengths. How does one even create this in a culture that is so individualistic and self-dependent? Is it all worth the effort?

    I'm not even going to attempt to summarize this - just click 'play' and you'll see why. All I can say is it'll be well worth your time.

    Coffee in hand, pen to paper, soaking it all in with you,

    Karen

    Relationship Care: Navigating big transitions together

    Relationship Care: Navigating big transitions together

    Letter from the Trenches

    Dear Parents,

    Because you are parents, I know 100% that you've gone through some huge transitions and changes in your life. Some of them you may have surprised yourself in how you breezed through, and others not to much. The bumps felt more like mountains and the pond felt more like the deep ocean. You can get lost along the way, feel derailed from your goals, purpose or how you imagined things would go. Massive turning points can come unexpectedly and have real impacts on your relationships - the question becomes how do you best manage those, stay on the same page and walk through time together.

    This is no small topic. Transitions can look like so many things - having a child, experiencing a tragedy, getting married, getting divorced, losing a parent, friend, sibling or child. The way we move through those intense and often abrupt changes, changes us. There's no two ways about it. Today I want to explore the impacts on our relationships and some of the ways we can get through those storms while still being connected with one another. Hope you'll have a listen to my conversation with Raina Dutchyn, a couples therapist, and see what new insights you might have on hard transitions you're working through.

    If you're in the process of adding to your family, biologically or through adoption, and you want to insulate your couple relationship from this massive, wonderful and stressful transition in your lives, check out the courses I created to support you through that...
    Adoption: What to do while you wait
    When You & Me Become Three

    Staring at the fork in the road with you,
    Karen

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