The Courageous Pastors Podcast

If you, as a pastor aren’t healthy— and if your family isn’t healthy, you can’t lead a church well.

And if the church isn’t healthy, it can’t impact the culture.

So, everything the church does actually begins in the home— of the leaders.

(This is why Paul cautions us that elders in the church must have their family in order before they’re qualified to lead— see 1 Timothy 3:1-12, especially verse 4.)

“Don’t take your personal, home life for granted while you’re out leading the church,” Rodney encourages.

Remember, too, you had your family BEFORE the ministry and you’ll have them AFTER the ministry.

Family will be the ones who come to see you in the cemetery. Don’t ignore the one group who will be with you for the entire run…

Ken reminds us, “Anything that’s worth ANYTHING is on the other side of hard.”

You’ll set your expectation in the wrong place if you don’t expect a challenge…

But, when we DO expect challenges, we’re prepared. We’ve counted the cost, and we’ve gone “all in” with our eyes wide open (Luke 14:25–33).

Nick leads Propel Church in North Carolina— a church that’s been around for 6 years. That means that HALF of their life has been DURING COVID.

Several years ago, Nick found himself stuck in a drug addiction— one so bad, in fact, that he got expelled from his school.

Jesus radically saved him. And, he turned and led a Bible study that same day.

Years later, he planted a church in the SAME school where he was kicked-out…

800 salvations (and 376 baptisms) later, things have never looked better.

But it wasn’t always that way. There were seasons of struggle.

(One of the biggest values of coaching is that it empowers you to skip over another person’s paint.)

One of the main things Nick teaches other pastors, one of the pain-points he wants them to skip so they can live better?

Rest.

It’s easy to skip over it. In fact, it’s the ONLY of the 10 Commandments that most of us are OK ignoring.

Think about it. No one ignores the forbiddance against adultery or idolatry. But, the Sabbath… is different.

(And, since we’re doing “eternal” work, it’s easy to spiritualize our lack of rest.)

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Links for this show

Teams Crash Course = www.CourageousPastors.com/cc 

The Gathering =   www.CourageousPastors.com/gathering 

You see, we can’t necessarily tell what God’s will for us is a year from now. 

But, we can tell what it is for today… and this week.

We often get side-swiped, stale-mated, and stalled-out because we don’t know where we’ll be 5 or 10 years from now. 

But we do know where we are today.

• Today is the perfect today to empty hell and fill heaven.
• Today is the perfect day to love your staff— and lead them closer to their potential.
• Today is the perfect day to shepherd someone through a hard time.
• Today is the perfect day to honor your wife, to embrace your kids, and to go “all in.”

That is, today is the perfect day to make this burst of mist— the vapor— the best it can be.

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Links for this talk— 

Schedule a strategy session = www.CourageousPastors.com/strategy 

Download 3 systems folders every organization needs = https://www.courageouspastors.com/offers/7fgKZzuF/checkout 

Learn about the Gears of Growth framework = www.CourageousPastors.com/ogg 

“For his first 15 years,” Adam says, “I got to work as an assistant coach to several GREAT lead pastors.”

In his mind, his stint as a youth pastor, an executive pastor, a small groups pastor, and more… those roles— with leaders helping him— empowered him to be who he is today.

In fact, Adam is a former staff member of Shawn Lovejoy!

In this talk, Adam discusses what it means to be the "second" in command, learn from a leader, and then move forward to leadership... 

Jordan Ducote has been a pastor of a megachurch for four years. He’s 37, but looks like he’s… well… about 20.

He’s uniquely a successor… of his father.

There are blessings and burdens— alike— of following a legacy leader.

A few things Jordan mentions— 

#1 = You don’t want to be the smartest guy in the room. 

#2 = You still must the confident in who you are. 

#3 = The mix of grace and truth. 

#4 = Have a coach AND a counselor. 

#5 = Be transparent and vulnerable to a fault… with the right people.

#6 = Use ministry to build people— don’t use people to build ministry. 

Jesse Bradley is a former soccer player turned pastor…

During his college days at Dartmouth, he took a  introductory to world religions class, reading all the originally religious texts as part of the course requirements.

“The professor tried to undermine the Bible,” he recalls, “but Scripture is powerful.”

Jesse didn’t enroll in the class to seek Christianity, but the Christ sought him through that class.

A believer in the course offered him a steady stream of solid answer for each of this questions. Throughout the year, he continued reading. And asking. And growing.

In the end, he was a Christian.

If Covid taught us anything, it showed us that external success always comes up empty— especially when the success is removed. In fact, we might not even realize the issue until the external props are gone…

Jesse reminds us that this season gives us a chance to go back and re-write the script of our lives, to refocus on the things that matter, to go back to the reasons we got into ministry in the first place.

Jesse recently found himself on Good Morning America (GMA, link below), sharing his personal story of a near-death experience, as well as how faith reignited his passion for life after he lost his soccer career.

The road to GMA was through a series of secure podcasts, forums in which he shared his struggles— and subsequent joy— to secular audiences.

“God always opens doors,” he says, “particularly when we go to where the people He wants to reach are.”

He’s also learned the importance of working as a “city of THE church” rather than working as separate churches. As such, he partners with “Saturate the Sound,” a cohort of ministries who have aligned to reach the area he lives in Washington.

They’ve rejected competition and isolation and chosen partnership. The result is a city-wide vision that’s featured him exchanging pulpits with a Korean pastor (translator included!) and other opportunities to achieve more together.

It’s easy to fall in love with “running the ministry” and counting the “results” of the work than falling in love with the Christ over the ministry and the people in the ministry.

Again, Covid offers us a chance to reset, to refocus, to start-over…

Reject the mere “form” of ministry and catch the “fire,” Jesus reminds us…

And, as Shawn adds, “Jesus wasn’t teaching a different text than the Pharisees. He taught the same text, but He put LIFE in it…”

That’s a good word…

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Links for this show

Grace Community Church = https://www.graceinauburn.com/

Jesse’s website = JesseBradley.org

Social Media links =

https://twitter.com/jessejbradley

https://www.instagram.com/jessejbradley/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jesse-bradley-4952488a/

Jesse shares his story on GMA, for Faith Friday = https//youtu.be/8OkDTx2tbqw

Free Teams Crash Course = www.TeamsCrashCourse.com

Leadership legend Sam Chand still remembers when Shawn told him, “When I hand off this church I want to do what you’re doing.”

In fact, Sam remembers the restaurant where the exchange happened…

And that’s one of the things that makes leaders like Sam Chand great— they see big vision but they drill it down by paying attention to the one person sitting in front of them.

In this episode Sam talks about pastors. Right now, shepherds are tired, he says. “They’re frazzled. Fatigued.”

Furthermore, this has nothing to do with their love for Jesus, but the season they’ve just endured.

(Sometimes, we need to realize that— the environment we’re in actually affects us in ways disproportional to the time involved.)

Pastors had to make fast decisions throughout the pandemic, and— as Sam says, “Regardless of the decision you made, you’ll be wrong with 50% of the people.”

The “no-win” scenario many pastors faced was much like quicksand…

“The more you struggle to get out, the more you get sucked in…”

This leads us to four observations—

#1 = Pastors (and their teams) face disengagement and disillusionment:

* 70% of their staff members disengaged during the past 18 months (and are not hiding it), according to Gallup.
* 30% are still deciding what to do next

In other words, EVERYONE seems to be in a state of limbo.

#2 = Staff conflict has increased.

A lot of this has to do with the changes people have endured, and a lot has to do with the fatigue + frazzle we mentioned earlier.

In a real sense, there’s no way to have endured the past 18 months and NOT have changed. And that always leads to relational tensions which must be addressed.

#3 = “Help Wanted.”

You see the signs everywhere— in shopping malls, at restaurants, at coffee shops, at movie theaters…

Even in volunteer (and staff) positions in churches, we see the signs. Many people returned to church, but they didn’t return to their previous ministry posts.

Ushers.

Greeters.

Kids’ workers.

Parking lot attendants…

The needs have actually increased— not decreased. We’re doing far more with much less.

#4 = The professional to personal pivot…

Sam notes that many leaders who used look only at organizational metrics (i.e., “the numbers” of nickels and noses) are now asking questions about themselves— about their health, their marriage, and the things they may have previously neglected.

“Leaders can become so driven that they overlook these important personal issues,” he says.

Notably, this is a POSITIVE pivot— leaders must become more self-aware.

This includes asking tough questions— like “What brings us LIFE?”

Is it the ministry?

Or external feedback?

Are we doing, as Jeremiah warned, drinking soul-water from empty cisterns, from things that can’t satisfy (Jeremiah 2:13)?

The reality is that the externals— the “things” we’re often tempted to feed to our soul for meaning— won’t be there on our deathbeds.

No one, in their final days, wishes they spent more time on stage, more time on a plane, or more time in a hotel…

It’s important to remember, Sam says, “If you die on a Saturday, they will hold churches on the next day…”

Shawn adds, “Prioritize people who will come see you in the cemetery.”

In reality, most pastors don’t. They tend to push those people out to focus on the ones who won’t….

During this season, Sam focuses on two things—

#1 = Creating content (like the new magazine and podcast he just released— links below)

#2 = Influencing influencers (through venues like speaking on this podcast and connecting with leaders like you).

In closing, he reminds us of four truths—

#1 = You are not alone.

You might feel that way, but you’re one of many (1 Kings 19:18).

#2 = There is nothing wrong with you.

You’ve just endured (and are on the tail end) of a strange season, one in which many people feel exactly like you do.

#3 = God knows the times and seasons (Acts 17:26).

He entrusted you with this epoch (Esther 4:14). He did so, because He has great confidence in you…

#4 = You’re probably thinking in new ways (i.e., the professional to personal pivot), and even pondering things about yourself.

Don’t run from those ideas just because you’ve endured a difficult time period. Trust the Holy Spirit and competent counsel to lead you.

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Links for the show

Sam Chand’s website: https://www.samchand.com/ 

Avail Magazine = https://www.theartofleadership.com 

Avail Podcast = https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/avail-podcast/id1521323044 

https://twitter.com/samchand 

https://www.instagram.com/samchandleadership 

 
Courage to Lead resources:

Help with processes = www.GearsOfGrowth.com 

Staff / Teams course = www.TeamsCrashCourse.com 

Schedule a free strategy session = www.CourageToLead.com/strategy 

Chris Brown just did something somewhat unthinkable— he started a new church on the tail end of the pandemic, right as pastors and other leaders ask the question, “When is everyone coming back?”

He leads The Well, in Columbia, Tennessee which— as of the recording of this episode— was in it’s 5th week.

Chris was involved in vocational ministry for several years in various capacities (never as a lead pastor), then went to work for Ramsey Solutions for four years. Something continued stirring in him, though, to make the transition back to full time church work.

“I had a thirst for community and shepherding,” he said, “not for teaching.”

He’d taught before. It was the people— the connection— that pulled him back. Not the platform.

Here’s the difference in doing it now, in his 40s, rather than launching a church in his 20s (as many church planters do): “I’m really at a place where I don’t base my identify and self-worth on the metrics,” he says. “I mean, we all say that— because it’s the right tings to say, but I feel like I’m honestly there.”

He doesn’t evaluate the church attendance on a week-to-week basis. Nor does he check the offering each week.

He looks at 10-week trends, evaluating the trajectory of where they’re heading— not just latching down on where they are at a snapshot in time.

Here are a few points to listen for—

#1 = When someone drops the ball, give grace.

Automatically assume they weren’t equipped correctly (which is, in fact, your job). Or, presume they had something happening in their personal life.

The reality is that in any leadership situation you— the leader— are the lid. And that’s both good news and bad news.

* Bad = it’s on you
* Good = you can adjust it!

#2 = Develop your donors, particularly if you’re starting a new church. Raising money on the front end empowers you to focus on ministry instead of chasing money.

#3 = Reward what you want repeated. And do so publicly.

#4 = Remember that “the overcoming of Covid and the season we’re in” is small compared God’s victories throughout the Bible, as well as the issues faced by church leaders around the globe.

#5 = Trust God with the results. If He’s called you to do something, go “all in.” Control what you can control, but then leave everything to HIs providence.

In fact, Chris asks the question, “What’s the worst thing that will happen if you fail?”

Then, he observes, “We’ve all failed before— and we’re still here.”

Instead of living from the perspective “What would have happened if I had only _______________,” live from the vantage point of, “I’ve given it all I have to give.”

Do so in a healthy way, of course.

WIth loads of prayer.

With a team of people you trust.

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Links for this show =

The Well Church = https://thewellcolumbia.org/ 

The Well on Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/thewellcolumbia/ 

Chris on LinkedIn = https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisbrownonair/ 

Chris on Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/chrisbrownonair/ 

Bil Cornelius is one of the church leaders— a church planter— who paved the way for others. As Shawn points out in this episode of The Courageous Pastors Podcast, Bil—

* Used direct mail and actually marketed the church (against the wit of some naysayers)
* Hosted spontaneous baptisms

Because of this, amidst his innovative approach, he’s not a stranger to criticism.

How do you deal with critics?

Bil says, “The devil can’t steal your gifts, so he wants to take your confidence.”

Think about that one. And how hesitating in your calling can keep you from pushing forward into the role God has— in His grace— fore-ordained for you (Ephesians 2:8-10).

If the devil can rip away your confidence, he can stalemate you in your calling…

This leads us to a posture of prayer— of extended times with the Father.

Bil prays for an hour a day. At least.

And sometimes he does it while he’s walking, so he can talk to God out loud and not get distracted.

He admits, “I don’t pray long hours because I’m so spiritual, I pray long hours because I’m not…”

And— “It’s not about the quantity time of prayer, it’s about finding the quality WITHIN that quantity…”

That is, he explains that God often shows up in a special way, in some subset of those minutes, some unique time that makes the entire time extremely valuable.

Bil talks, too, about the importance of learning from mentors: “Information is cheap,” he says. “Especially today. But what’s not cheap is relationship and connection.”

He counsels leaders to learn from others, but to still “be you,” that is, not to lose the confidence if your own calling. Don’t be a copycat; resist the temptation to be a clone. Replicate the principles you learn amidst those relationships but execute your unique call— because you can’t duplicate someone else’s anointing (nor can they copy yours).

One of the biggest lessons of this post-pandemic season?

We are learning NOT to worship at the feet of numbers. That’s always been a tendency for church leaders.

“Preach in season and out of season,” Paul tells us (2 Timothy 4:2).

“This is,” Bil says, “an out of season season.”

And, it’s a time in which we need to realize that the “numbers” we have not ARE the actual numbers. In a sense, we’re not at 50% or 70% or whatever-% of our capacity… we’re at a new 100%.

And that’s OK. You’ve grown “the numbers” before, so you can do it again…

Sure, the numbers are important. They represent real people. But, we need to focus on the things that really matter—

* Your marriage
* Your children
* Your health (physical, mental, emotional, spiritual)

If you have these, you’re “winning” in life AND in ministry…

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Links for today’s talk =

Church Unlimited = https://churchunlimited.com/ 

Bil on TikTok = The Praying Pastor

Instagram = https://www.instagram.com/BilCornelius/ 

Twitter = https://twitter.com/bilcornelius 

Schedule a free strategy session at www.CourageToLead.com/strategy  

Pastor Chris Johnson leads Divine Unity Community Church— a multi-racial, multi-ethnic, multi-generational church in Harrisonburg, Virginia. As our nation experienced many of the racial and political upheavals, the people he leads leaned in hard to see what it means to unify as Ephesians 2 outlines rather than dividing on important— but lesser-important than the Kingdom— issues.

During the conversation, Shawn asks Chris his opinion: “What’s the biggest issue you see pastors facing now?”

His answer: “Grief.”

Chris says that many pastors are grieving the transitions they’ve seen in ministry, the new weight they carry, and the loss of previous expectations…

Face it. Leading a church and a ministry has transformed over the past few years— and it’s done so quickly.

Chris talks about how he deals— and has dealt with emotional overwhelm.

His main takeaway: there are things you can only acquire in the valley, perspective— and strength— you can’t gain from the mountaintop.

You learn to lean into the Father.

You dive deeper into the Scripture.

And relationships change. Relationships forged in success look one way (and can be great). Relationships forged in struggle seem even stronger.

He also discusses the need to make disciples, not just host church services. This doesn’t mean he’s against church services— Chris talks about launching a new church right now.

But the focus has always been— and should always be— people.

Our “product,” in other words, is transformed lives.

Chris reminds us, finally, to “give up” ownership of a few things— that is, to deconstruct your leadership call and allow the Father to rebuild it.

Things to give to give up ownership on include—

Not your OWN righteousness.

Not your OWN strength.

Not your OWN understanding.

Mike Burnette replanted LifePoint Church when it was 5 years old, had 52 members, and was $2.5MM in debt. The church has grown steadily since then.

But growth isn’t always what it’s cracked-up to be— and it’s not something we should pursue for the simple sake of growth. 

In this talk, Shawn and Mike discuss the importance of the Kingdom of God— and staying focused on the Kingdom rather than on ourselves, and what we can produce.

Mike talks candidly about being THE fastest growing church in America— according to Outreach Magazine’s 2018 poll. The following year,  he fell into the 70s. Then, a year later, he didn’t even make the list. He describes what Top 100 did to him, in terms of staking value in the wrong place…

External, outside honors are certainly humbling. But they can also shake us when we place the wrong merit on them. 

The year after he made the list, he actually wanted to quit ministry. It was tough, and marked by marital strife and other tensions.

Mike no longer reviews the attendance records at his church— not even on Easter. He says this stance frees him to pay attention to the people physically before him, in his presence (rather than worrying about who’s not there). 

And it reminds him of what really matters…

Recently, Mike released the book Parable Church, a work he published in March 2021. He writes about the culture Jesus wanted to create— namely, one that reminds us that it’s God’s job to grow our ministry-field. It’s our job, on the other hand, to grow in faithfulness and fervency.

The book makes an observation and then asks a question each pastor needs to assess— 

Mike observes, “Christ never actually told us how to do church."

He then asks,

So why is much of our time and energy as leaders and shepherds consumed with chasing after tips, tricks, and secrets to "grow" churches, hoping that they somehow also reach and maintain spiritual health?

The question makes sense. If the metrics mattered as much as we make of them, certainly Jesus would have outlined a strategy of what to count, how to count it…

In the end, we are responsible for ourselves— for our character, for stewarding our calling, and for pursuing the Christ…

That is, we need to grow the right things.

Our Master rewards faithfulness, not fruitfulness. Sure, He designed us such that we would produce fruit, but the goal… is faithfulness.

The fruit?

It grows as on overflow of what’s happening inside of us and the people we serve.

Clayton King preaches most weekends at NewSpring Church in South Carolina, he leads Clayton King Ministries, and he’s written 17 books (the latest one being released during the pandemic).

But than that, he’s a normal guy who loves Jesus. He likes to go outdoors, and he rides a motorcycle with a random playlist to clear his mind.

In this talk he begins by discussing the Good-Fast-Cheap Pyramid.

“You can choose 2 out of the 3,” he says, “but not all three.”

The problem is that we’ve got to make sure we choose the right 2— and that involves recognizing the season we’re in…

Think about it…

If you want fast and cheap, the work will be shoddy.

A contractor you hire with this approach will give you a “rush job,” then move to the next project. The work won’t be good, but it will be done.

If you want cheap and good, it’s not going to be fast. It will take some time.

A contractor you hire here will squeeze you in when they can, most likely doing bits and pieces of your job around other projects that are making them the big bucks. The work will be cheap, good… and slooowwwww.

If you want good and fast, it won’t be cheap. The contractor will postpone every other item on their calendar and stay up all night making sure your job gets done.

They’ll focus like a laser, making sure you get what you want— and that you’re happy. But you’ll pay handsomely for it. The project will be good, fast… and expensive.

Here’s the tension--

We want to grow fast, but anything that’s unhealthy ALSO replicates when you move fast.

So, we must keep the Good-Fast-Cheap pyramid in mind.

When things move fast, we often miss some things which seem insignificant in the moment….

* What time you wake up
* Your exercise routine
* How you order the first moments of you day
* Making time for the people who matter the most (your family)
* The time you go to bed

It’s easy to allow the important things to slip and slide during a rapid season of growth. However, these are the things which sustain us, and so they must be prioritized— even if that means intentionally slowing down.

Look back at the contractor example above— they put everything else off in the third option (good and fast) in order to finish you job. But they did so at the expense of other projects, as we often do in ministry.

Therein lies the problem.

Clayton reminds us not to simply measure “fast fruit” but “faithful” and “long-lasting” fruit.

In order to sustain ministry, you’ve got to build structures and systems… as well as care for your own soul.

We see Jesus do this, by the way. He routinely slipped away from the masses (and did the “slow down, slow grow”), as well as told those he healed not to tell people who He was.

Take the Sabbath.

Pause and enjoy your family.

Stop and enjoy the life you’ve been given…

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Links for this show—

Clayton’s website: https://www.claytonking.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/clayton_king/

Clayton’s newest book, Reborn: https://amzn.to/3mHI6nv

Schedule a strategy session with Courage to Lead: www.CourageToLead.com/strategy