domitrz

 

 

 

 

Skip works with small business owners in virtually every industry from hometown banks and credit unions, independent insurance agencies, small manufacturers, food distributors, and even plumbers.

 

During his baseball career Skip served as CEO for five different franchises over 16 years leading teams affiliated with the Boston Red Sox, Cincinnati Reds, New York Mets, Seattle Mariners, Tampa Bay Rays and Texas Rangers.

 

In his work today Skip focuses first on improving communication in the work environment, which is always the primary cause of problems, challenges, frustrations, and issues getting in the way of a more positive, more productive, and even more profitable company.

 

In 2018, Skip’s first book will be published, “Overcoming The 7 Deadliest Communication SINs: A New Standard for Workplace Communication.”

 

 

Book site: www.7DeadliestCommunicationSINs.com

Primary Website: www.YourChampionshipCompany.com

Twitter: skip_weisman

LinkedIN: www.linkedin.com/in/skipweisman/

Facebook: www.facebook.com/yourchampionshipcompany/

 

 

BIO of Alan Stein Jr:
Alan Stein, Jr. is a performance coach, consultant, speaker and author. He spent 15 years working with the highest performing basketball players on the planet.Alan delivers high-energy keynotes and interactive workshops to improve performance, cohesion and accountability. He inspires and empowers everyone he works with to take immediate action and improve mindset, habits and productivity.In other words, Alan teaches how to utilize the same strategies in business that elite athletes use to perform at a world-class level.He is an amicably divorced father of twin sons (Luke and Jack) and a daughter (Lyla) and lives just outside of Washington, D.C..

 

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages::

Recorded Mike:                  Welcome to The RESPECT Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US Military create a culture of respect, and respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike:                                         Welcome to this episode, yes, I'm your host Mike Domitrz. I'm excited to have our guest today, Alan Stein Jr., he is with alansteinjr.com, make sure you put the jr in there, the j-r, 'cause it is a very different website if you do not put the j-r in there. Thanks for joining us here today Alan.

Alan:                                          Oh, my pleasure Mike, thank you.

Mike:                                         So Alan, you're all about performance, and this show's all about respect. So let's dive in to how does respect play a role in performance. I should back up a little bit, 'cause you've done TEDx talks, you speak with organizations, sports teams, pro teams, you have a wide variety of experience, so let's start there.

Mike:                                         Can you give a little quick background on you.

Alan:                                          Yeah, absolutely. I've spent most of my career in basketball, primarily at the youth level, but was able to work with some really elite level youth, many of which are playing in the MBA now. And my number one job then was to improve their on-court performance, so I was working on their athleticism and so forth.

Alan:                                          About a year and a half ago, I decided to parley everything that I've learned from the game of basketball and from some of the world's best players and coaches, and take that over to the corporate sector to teach businesses and organizations how they can improve their performance. And there's a very very high rate of transfer, I mean, what it takes for a Kobey Bryant or LeBron James or Stephen Curry to be successful, is not that different from the fundamentals that it take guys like you and I to be successful as well.

Alan:                                          So I'm having a blast in this new space and I was really looking forward to this conversation because I believe respect is the foundation to which all of this is built, and look forward to volleying that back and forth with you.

Mike:                                         Well we're gonna dive right in there, 'cause that's what I do when I work with organizations, is help them build the foundation or culture of respect. So how do you feel it's vital and plays a role in performance?

Alan:                                          When I was working with basketball players, respect was something that was talked about all of the time and it was emphasized from a few different vantage points. One thing that I learned as a coach, you get what you emphasize. So if you want a culture of respect then certainly you need to be a respectful person and you need to give respect to those around you. But it goes deeper to that, going back to basketball players, first of all they have to have a respect for themselves. They have to respect their body, and take care of their body to make sure they are in great physical shape, they need to respect the game, they need to respect the process of what it takes to be a great player, which means not skipping steps and doing and mastering the basics and fundamentals.

Alan:                                          They need to respect their team-mates and their coaches of course, they need to respect the officials, respect is the thread that binds all of these different things together, and I don't think that it's any different in the corporate world. I'm a huge believer, and I love that you mentioned culture, I believe culture is what drives sustainable results and creating a culture of respect is imperative and for me, I've never liked the word employee. I'm a stickler for terminology and sometimes I feel like the word employee gives a connotation that someone is superior to someone else.

Alan:                                          So I always perform just using the word colleague, and if I was the CEO and there were 500 people "working for me", I would still want them to view me as a colleague, and I would treat them with the same respect that I would treat anyone in the organization, from the building service person all the way through the executive staff. Everyone should be treated with the same dignity and respect, and that needs to be, again, I know we keep using the word foundation, but everything else will crumble if you don't have that in place.

Mike:                                         I agree, and it's true in homes too, 'cause some people listening to our show, they're applying this to their family life. So how do you see it showing up in family life?

Alan:                                          So I'm amicably divorced and the reason I bring that up, first of all I realized that I'm in the minority of folks that are divorced, to be able to say that you're amicably divorced and get along really well with your ex, I'm finding that that's a rarity, so I'm very thankful for that.

Alan:                                          But the only reason that I can boast that is because we both immediately, despite our differences, said we're going to approach this divorce with respect. We have three children, we have twin sons that are eight, and a six year-old daughter and we both said look, despite the fact that our relationship's not what we thought it would be, the way that we respect each other is going to have a profound impact on how our children view the world, and how our children enter relationships. The way that I treat their mother, that's how my sons will eventually learn how to treat women. I'm modeling that for them. And for my daughter, the way that I treat her mother is how she'll be expected to be treated by men.

Alan:                                          So to me, being respectful in all cases is really important and as I know that you know, you can disagree, you can have debate, you can have professional differences, but you can do so in a very respectful and tactful and appropriate way. This isn't about everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya all of the time. It's okay to have differences, differences in beliefs and differences in opinion. Bu you can have those differences respectfully and that is one of the most important things that I want to model for my children.

Mike:                                         Love it, and that is exactly what we teach with parents, what are you role modeling. Even when it comes to, we teach, hey, would you want your child to have a choice before somebody kisses them? And they're like, of course, I don't want someone just kissing my child without ... Okay, but do you role model that? And parents like, what do you mean, ask my spouse before I kiss them? Well how else are they gonna learn?

Mike:                                         And why wouldn't you just do that because it's the right thing to do. But parents go, well that's not what most people do. Well tradition isn't necessarily healthy or respectful.

Alan:                                          That's a great way to separate those two and I agree completely. Modeling, especially when it comes to children, is what's most important. And respect comes into that ten-fold. I can talk about being respectful to my children, but if they see me disrespect a waiter or waitress, or a flight attendant, or anybody else, a cashier, that's gonna speak at a much higher volume than what I tell them to do. So it always comes back to modeling.

Alan:                                          But not just for children. The same is true in coaching, the same is true in leadership. I've always believed that time is our most precious resource and one of the ways that we show other people that we respect them is by being respectful of their time and valuing their time. So while things obviously pop up, I'm not gonna imply that I've never been late to anything, but I do my best to be prompt, if not early, to every engagement that I have because I think that's a sign of respect.

Alan:                                          Perfect example would be, someone in a leadership position telling everybody on the staff that they need to be on time for meetings, and then they themselves walk in three minutes late. I find that to be disrespectful behavior. Now it doesn't mean they're a disrespectful person, it just means in that example they exhibited disrespectful behavior. And I think respect undermines everything that we do in every aspect of our life.

Mike:                                         Well let's back up there, 'cause I think you said something very important. It's also in the mindfulness level, which is, disrespectful behavior does not mean disrespectful person. Right, this is not, you made a bad choice therefore you are a bad person. This is, you're a good person who's failing to display respect, or to show respect or to give respect, and that is a different discussion, because as soon as people think, are you calling me not respectful?, now you got a battle, now you got friction going on, they're not opening to learning, or new possibilities.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, and I love that you're able to separate behavior from the underlying character of a person, because we all we're flawed, we're all under construction, we're all works in progress, we're all going to make mistakes, and especially if you're going to have a respectful disagreement or a respectful confrontation with someone, I think it's important that you do separate those things. And for me, to be able to say, yeah Mike, you showing up to the meeting late today was disrespectful of your colleagues is different than me saying. Mike, you're disrespectful, or you don't have any respect for this organization, or you don't respect the person next to you. Especially if you've established the credibility that I know that you do, you just made a mistake, and it'd be no different than certainly I've said my share of boneheaded things in the past, that doesn't mean I'm a stupid person. I may have said something stupid or said something that I wish that I wouldn't have said the way that I said it, but we can't let that tear down everything.

Alan:                                          However, I will say that when someone continually shows habits of disrespect, that now that does question some portions of their character. It's that old adage, the first time you do something, it's a mistake; the second time it's a decision. So if I'm constantly late to meetings, then I'm not valuing the time of my colleagues and that's something that needs to be addressed.

Mike:                                         Yeah, and we talk about this, that the person who even if you don't like them, you still have to treat them with respect. That's the foundation of saying we're creating a culture of respect. It's one thing we teach organizations all the time, if they go, well that person ... like you gave an example there. I can say that says something about your character and I still have to respect you. It's not, and because that says about your character, now I don't have to respect you, which is what people will do.

Mike:                                         And the irony is, to say that person is disrespectful, you just disrespected. You just blanketed their entire character, or they don't ... here's my one that I talk about a lot with organizations. They haven't earned my respect. Which means, well when did you earn their respect? You see the game that gets played here? Now we get to choose who we want to respect and who we don't wanna respect, versus I'm gonna respect you no matter what happens I'm gonna respect you as a fellow person. Now I may disagree with you, or not value certain values you have or judgements you have, that's different than not respecting you as a person, or your intellect, or your contributions.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, you stated that brilliantly. And that's coming from a place of humility that we're all on a level playing field. Just the fact that we're standing upright and we're breathing, we're human beings and we're worthy and deserving of respect of each other. And that has to be that foundation.

Alan:                                          It's funny because in my talks I actually substitute the word respect for care. And say that you don't have to like the person next to you, but you choose whether or not you care about them because caring is an act of will, caring is a choice. And when organizations have folks that can care, or in your case, respect, I think in this case they're synonyms, if you can respect the person next to you even if they're not your BFF, that's how you build a really strong culture. Because you choose whether or not to respect someone else, you choose whether or not to care about them. You choose whether or not you're going to respect or care about the mission of the organization, so no, we're definitely speaking the same language.

Mike:                                         Why Alan, I like this because I think there's some differences that are important to discuss, which is the care and respect. And the reason why we use respect in those situations. I could care about a relative who I think does not contribute well to conversations, therefore I will not respect their opinion, is what can happen. So, I love you but I can't stand what you say.

Mike:                                         We all have family members that will say, I love that person, I can't stand what they say, and so right away there's a little bit of disrespect. So I can care and disrespect, people do it. I love you, but I discount this part, or I discount that. Which means, that's not truly caring.

Mike:                                         So, I agree with you, full caring would be very close, but people tend to dice and play with those and say, well, I care but I don't value you because of this. Okay, well respect means you have to value me, do I add value in this world?

Mike:                                         I think a great example is in the sport's world, we can go look at basketball back in the day, those who are old enough who are listening know that during Michael Jordan's run he had a key piece on his team, a key piece that people wondered how did they operate on the same court? How did this person have the patience to deal with this other person's off the court antics and seemed to be self-focused, and a lot of people when they hear this they know that we're referring to a great rebounder in Dennis Rodman.

Alan:                                          I saw it coming.

Mike:                                         Yes right, and people have this perception that you had a troublemaker in Dennis Rodman, they wanted to label the whole person troublemaker, still to this day due to politics and other things, he still has this label at times. And Jordan was this amazing, almost they put him on a God pedestal of athletics, how did that operate.

Mike:                                         So how can you explain to people, and I'm fortunate in that I have read some of the stories on how Phil Jackson the coach dealt with that, but I'd love for you to share, for our listeners, how they made that work, 'cause there could have been easy disconnect of failure to respect there, and it never would have worked.

Alan:                                          Well, the best teams that I've ever been a part of, whether it's a basketball team, or a corporate organization, they recognize the fact that you build a team the same way that you'd build a puzzle, and that every piece is important, and that pieces are shaped differently and they look differently but you need them all to make the final puzzle, which means everybody has a different role, and of utmost important in any team or organization is respecting your teammates or your colleagues role, even when they're different from yours, even if they're "bigger or smaller" than yours, it doesn't matter.

Alan:                                          You have to respect the fact that this person brings something unique and helpful and beneficial to the team, and we have to respect that. And I think, again I'm not privy to any information but, I believe Michael Jordan had a respect for the role that Dennis Rodman played. He was an elite defender, one of the best rebounders the game has ever seen, he would hustle his butt off, and I think that made it a little easier for Jordan to tolerate some of the other antics that he probably didn't prefer, but since he had a respect for Rodman as a human being and a respect for him as a teammate, but most importantly respected his role and knew that in order for us, the Bulls, to be successful, this guy needs to fulfill his role to the best of his ability.

Alan:                                          And that absolutely deserves respect and with a basketball team especially, players ten to fifteen, the ones that don't see the court a whole lot for playing time during the games, it's so important for the coach and some of the "star players" to really show respect to those players, because they're integral to the success of the team, especially when it comes to practice.

Alan:                                          So I think it that case it comes down to respecting the fact that everybody has a role, and everyone's role is important regardless of what it is.

Mike:                                         There's recent research that was showing that on a team, like a basketball team of five, that if you have more than two true all-out stars, your odds of winning go down severely. And you're agreeing with this, I can see you're agreeing with me, so do you think that is a lack of respect that everybody starts to get "me" focused, when it's all-stars versus role players, that everybody respects each others' roles, what do you think is the cause of that?

Alan:                                          Well in elite level basketball I think that's very true, although I find it fascinating because in the MBA you've got 450 or some players and outside of maybe the top 25 guys, the LeBrons and the Durants and the Russell Westbrooks, outside of those guys, everybody else in the league is pretty much a role player. They have one or maybe two very specific skills that they do at an incredibly high level. So yes, I think if you were to try, and we've seen this in many cases, Golden State might be the only group that might be able to prove otherwise, but if you're taking two, three or four guys from that top 25 and putting them on the same team, I think it makes it challenging for any of them to not be the alpha male, and to accept a role that they consider less than what they're capable of.

Alan:                                          I think that's where you run into problems, but you know we just saw it with Houston this last season. A lot of people didn't think Chris Paul and James Harden could play together, because they're both very ball-dominant players. They worked magic, they were wonderful because they both respected the fact that the other guy was an elite-level player and scorer and could take pressure off of them, and they viewed themselves then more as a two-headed monster instead of someone that had to do it by themselves.

Alan:                                          But yes, I think if you start stockpiling three of four alpha males on the same team, it just gets harder for someone to accept what they consider a lesser role. But that's what I think Golden State has done so brilliantly, you know, you've got Durant and you've got Curry but Draymond Green and Klay Thompson, who are superstars in their one right, they accept ... and when I say lesser role, I don't mean that to the value they add to the team, I simply mean in the eyes of most fans-

Mike:                                         Right, how many touches are they going to get, exactly. Right, so how does that play in the corporate world, how does that play in people respecting their roles, when you start to get together that rock star sales team, how do you keep them, right, because the sales team deals with the same thing, the corporate world retention's a major issue. And how do you keep a bunch of rock stars on the same team in the corporate world, respecting each others' roles.

Alan:                                          Well, in corporate especially I find it in different departments, like I wanna make sure that the sales team has a huge respect for the folks that work behind the scenes, that customer-facing colleagues have just as much respect for the people that are building and maintaining the infrastructure behind. Lots of times that's the separation, it's like hey, I'm gonna bring sales and I'm gonna bring business to the company but then it's up to your team to support and to keep the client relations and make sure that things continue to work together. So I think the first step is making sure that everyone in the different departments has a very high respect level for what the other person is doing. Because if any one of those groups were to falter, everybody suffers.

Alan:                                          And then when it comes to sales, you have to have the confidence that a raising tide will raise all boats type of mentality, that I can still be an elite salesperson, but you're my colleague and I can still help and support you. When you're going after an account, I can play the assist person on that to help you land that account, because it's good for all of us. And you have to have that belief that the better our organization does, and the better our company does, that will come back to me in many ways. And it's not zero sum.

Alan:                                          Same things with the best teams. The best basketball teams I were a part of, it didn't matter who scored the basket, it just mattered that we scored. Someone in our color jersey puts it in the basket, it's a win for all of us, don't worry about who does it.

Mike:                                         So, in these situations, especially in the corporate world but same in sports, the one barrier that seems to step in here is jealousy. Is this idea of but I'm just as good, and I'm not getting the sales opportunities that they're getting, they're handing the hottest, biggest contracts to that person, not me, and I'm just as good. There's a comparison/jealousy that's taking place. How do you help people address that in a way that helps them shift their parameters, 'cause that's what we talk about with them, it's shifting that parameter from a comparison mode to a respect of, so what is it going to take for me to get that opportunity? And if that's truly a culture of respect, I'm gonna have that opportunity, I'm gonna have that chance.

Mike:                                         How do you address that?

Alan:                                          I believe that there's only two things in this world that any of us have 100% control over, 100% of the time, and that's our effort and our attitude. Certainly our attitude is our ability to show and receive respect, so we're talking about the same thing, but I would if I was a leader in that organization, I would promote a culture where everyone focuses on their effort and their attitude and their preparation and their execution. That it's not about the comparison game, that's a game that's played all of the time now especially on social media, but it's a dangerous game because it's one that no-one can win.

Alan:                                          If you allowed outside metrics and barometers to determine your own value, you will always lose that game. Because it doesn't matter what we are talking about, whether we're talking about sales ... if I walk outside of my office right now, within 30 seconds I'll find someone with a bigger house, with a nicer car, with more money, who has more speaking engagements, who's done ... you'll always lose if that is your measurement of self-worth. So it needs to go back to your own attitude and your own effort and fulfilling your role to the organization to the best of your ability.

Alan:                                          That takes practice and it takes emphasis and reinforcement from everybody in the organization because I do believe it's human nature that if you and I are sales colleagues and you keep landing the big accounts, there will be some inherent jealousy there which is why, if we foster the right type of culture, one, you'll land those accounts with graciousness, respect and humility, and you'll share the wealth. You'll let everyone know that, hey, I might have been the one that landed this big account, but I couldn't do this without everybody else in this organization that supports me, that I don't land any account by myself. This is something we all do together.

Alan:                                          And the same thing from a leadership standpoint. If someone was constantly saying, hey Alan, I know Mike landed that account but man, you've been really killing it for us and we appreciate all of the work that you've been doing, I think those type of steps in that type of culture can lessen that inherent jealousy.

Mike:                                         Well yeah and the key there is the person who lands the account, share how you did it. That's respect right. If I'm being closed and I'm not telling you how I did things, that means I don't trust you. That means this is now about us competing and even though I'm landing everything, I'm just as scared as you are, 'cause I'm about holding the secrets. So I don't really respect you, 'cause I think you'll betray me, so I won't give you this information because I think you'll slash right from under me and steal some of this business from me.

Mike:                                         That's what privacy, that idea of scarcity versus prosperity, and so that becomes a big piece of, if you're running an organization right now you have to ask yourself, do my top performers, do they run from a place of prosperity? Are they sharing with everyone exactly how they landed the last success? So that everybody can land that same kind of success.

Alan:                                          Absolutely, I love that. And that is the definition of a winning culture, and in some regards too, and I know we're just talking in hypotheticals, but maybe a qualified prospect comes across your plate, and it's an easy softball lob and you toss it over to me 'cause you know that I've been in a little bit of a slump and you let me close the deal. No different than, I've scored the last ten points and you're in a shooting slump, I'm gonna find you the easiest basket I can get you to get you going again. It does, it takes a tremendous amount of humility, and any time there's humility there also has to be that confidence what you just mentioned.

Alan:                                          That hey, I can tell everyone in the organization, shoot, I can post on social media how I just closed this deal, because I don't care if anybody else knows. I'm confident in my ability to do what I did, and that is ultimately a very, very high sign of respect.

Mike:                                         Yeah, it's like we're members of the National Speakers Association. And people ask me all the time, wait, Mike, you got to this convention with other speakers. Nobody's telling you how they actually built their business are they, because then you could cut the business out from under them. I'm like, it's exactly what they're doing, is sharing everything. Because they know what they did is their business and I'm not taking away from them by applying it to my topic or my business, even if we're in the same topic, I'm gonna do it differently. They're gonna do it differently, we don't need to be afraid of each other, we can actually grow from each other, and push the boundaries and just become that much better.

Mike:                                         When you have a friend and you're both succeeding, it's like, alright, now here, now here, and its a positive push, it's not a jealousy thing. It's a wow, you did that, I wanna figure out how to do that. And because I want to experience that opportunity to have that impact, the way you're having that impact. And that's really key, isn't it?

Alan:                                          Absolutely, it's been one of the most refreshing things about entering this new landscape of being a professional speaker, is how willing and selfless and unselfish and caring and respectful so many of the other speakers are. I don't know why I was shocked, I had no reason to assume it'd be otherwise, but I just think it's been amazing how much people give back. That was one of my favorite parts about being in the coaching fraternity. Many of the old-school coaches, they would sit down with each other and exchange tips on recruiting, exchange plays, exchange ... even if they're gonna play that person twice that upcoming season, they know hey, they can go get this play if they scout us anyway, so why don't I just share it with them and let's talk about why we run it, and everybody gets better.

Alan:                                          It takes tremendous confidence to take off your armor and share everything. For me, I'm 42 years old, I have the humility to know I didn't invent anything in the speaking industry, this is all stuff that I'm going to be learning from others, either interactions with folks like you, or reading a book, or attending an NSA conference. So if I'm learning it from someone else, it's not for mine to hold on to. I'll pass that down to someone else, and if in a few years someone reaches out to me that's just starting in the professional speaking business, and they'd love some tips or some advice, I'd be honored to give it to them, because other people did that for me.

Alan:                                          So it's not really ours to hold onto, and again with our theme, I think that's showing respect not only to the person you're dealing with, but a respect to the industry, a respect to the profession and the craft of speaking that we should all be here to help each other because, at the end of the day, you're going out to speak to make an impact, to help companies improve their culture and improve respect. Which will make this world a better place. So why would I not be rooting for you, why would I not want you out there doing your thing making this world a better place? 'Cause that's what I'm trying to do and I don't have that mentality that it's you vs me. Yeah, there might be some times where we, other speakers in the business, we're going up for the same gig and you lose out, but that's okay, there's some much business out there and it just simply means that you weren't a right fit. It would never come down to, I shared something with you, you put it in place, and now they want you instead of me.

Alan:                                          The chances of that happening is almost zero.

Mike:                                         Yeah, it's incredibly slim. That's correct.

Mike:                                         What's a book that has had a massive impact on you, on your own journey?

Alan:                                          Well from a basketball standpoint, I'm a Coach K fan, I'm a diehard Mike Krzyzewski Duke basketball fan and he's written several books, but one called Leading With The Heart, is one that I love. And he also wrote one called Gold Standard, and those were written for the business world but obviously through the lens of one of the best basketball coaches in history, so there's a lot of transfer and crossover there.

Alan:                                          I don't know if you know Phil Jones, I know we run in similar circles, but Phil wrote a book called Exactly What To Say, which is not as much a book as it is kind of a guide or a handbook, on how powerful terminology is, and if you go back and look at the way that he chooses to phrase and position certain statements, it all comes from a position of being very respectful.

Alan:                                          I met earlier with another friend of ours, Ian Altman, tremendous speaker, he has a book called Same Side Selling, which talks about not looking at you vs me when you're selling to someone, but you and me, and let's work together to solve a problem.

Mike:                                         That's perfect, and we'll include those in the show notes for everyone listening. Alan, I wanna thank you for joining us, it's been wonderful.

Alan:                                          Thank you so much, I enjoyed it as well.

Recorded Mike:                  Thank you for joining us for this episode of The RESPECT Podcast, which was sponsored by The Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

 

 

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPTION of the EPISODE HERE (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3^rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike:                       Welcome to the Respect podcast. I am your host Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military, create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show. So let's get started.

Mike:                       Alright I am super excited today because I get to have a friend of mine, a brother of mine, not by blood but certainly by all other methods. We've known each other for so long, we built the early years of our speaking businesses together. Up on the phone until 4 a.m. trying to make a difference in this world together, decades ago now. And so happy to have you on. So this is Dr. Sean Stevenson, a dear friend, brilliant. You may know him because you may have seen him on TV. That's correct. For instance, the biography channel produced an hour long feature on his life called the Three Foot Giant.

Mike:                       But he's also worked with companies like Nike, Whole Foods, Zappos, Walmart, Sharp Healthcare. He's shared the stage with presidents, billionaires, business moguls, celebrities, and the Dalai Lama. It's just amazing, Sean's story. Now Sean, obviously I know your story inside and out but I'm going to let you tell the brief version of it, so it comes from your authentic voice. Give me a little background on how you got to where you are today, helping organizations and individuals really develop to where they want to be.

Sean:                       Yeah, yeah. So, I'd say the most fascinating part that people get really zoned in on when they're learning about Sean Stevenson and what I have to offer is they're intrigued by the container I'm in. That's where it starts. Being born with a rare bone disorder called Osteogenesis Imperfecta, also known as brittle bones disorder. Doctors told my parents I'd be dead within the first 24 hours of my life and my joke on stage is 39 years later, all those doctors are dead and I'm still here. The only doctor remaining. And that I have a very clear message to rid this world of insecurity. I've had to face a lot of my own insecurities. Still do to this day and my mentors over the years have really groomed me. And I'm so grateful that they have pushed on me to look at what can I do with the time that I have to make the biggest splash on this planet while I'm still here? And hopefully create a body of work that will outlive beyond.

Sean:                       And I met you, as you said, through that process of evolving. And Mike, I consider you my frientor. You're as much a friend as a mentor. And my goal here today is to share with the listener, the viewer to ... how I have built up an internal world that is a very peaceful space and one that I think then creates a space externally that can help that permeate into society. And by no means am I perfect. I've made a bunch of mistakes. I'm continuing to make them, but as I've learned, if you're willing to observe your own ego and really work on yourself, forgive what you've done and move forward, you can really create some cool things with the time you've got here.

Mike:                       And you have. You already have, in addition to what you will do going forward. How do you think respect played a role both in your early years, maybe where it was a struggle to figure out what I'm going to do here, what my path is going to be, and then on each juncture along the way?

Sean:                       If I could define respect for me, so that we're on similar footing on what I think is respect, I think respect is acknowledging value. And the moment somebody doesn't feel valued, their body doesn't feel valued, their intellect doesn't feel valued, their emotions, their spirit. When we feel devalued, we don't feel respected. And it works the same from within. So if you aren't acknowledging your own value, you aren't seeing what are you doing right and what are you proud of and what are you grateful for. When you're not willing to go inside and acknowledge your value and what you created, you won't be able to respect yourself. And therefore ... it's very hard to give something to somebody else that you won't give to yourself.

Sean:                       You can do it. There's a lot of people that are nice to others that aren't nice to themselves, but it's a lot easier to have peace externally if you have peace internally. And I also kind of merge something else in with this respect conversation, which is trust. And I believe that those are two pillars of gaining somebody's rapport, gaining rapport with them. And if respect in my definition is acknowledging value, then trust is acknowledging agenda. That if you are clear on what your agenda is and you are actually truthful about your agenda and you're not saying one thing and doing another, if you are clear on your agendas, people can begin to trust you.

Sean:                       And then if you make sure that their value is acknowledged, the second you know someone's agenda and it's accurate, and you know they respect you, you will allow them in to coach you, to lead you, to guide you. And the moment pain arises, the moment you pull back go "Ow, why'd you do that" is the moment that somebody feels that your agenda wasn't authentic or that you actually didn't really believe that they were valuable and you were just going through the motions to try to win them over.

Sean:                       And what I've found is as long as we have that bond of this person sees my value and I know what their true agenda is, we can create such magic together. And you don't even need to ... this is what blows my mind. You don't even need to like somebody to trust them because you could see them and they could be clear about something that you're like "Nah, I don't want anything to do with them." But at least when you know what their agenda is, you know what you're dealing with. I always have a problem is when people express an agenda that's false. They tell a girl "Oh, I love you" when they really don't love them. "I care about your children's well-being" when they really just care about your money.

Sean:                       And when we get those mixed agendas and then on top of it they don't really, truly see our value, they just came up with some pat response, it's really hard to build a bond.

Mike:                       Yeah, let's dive into this because I can remember back in my early days and even a decade ago, when I would send out an email and you'd learn from people who say "Well, take the email strategy this way so they don't really know what you're seeking is this over here." And you think okay they know what they're doing, I'll take that formula and you suddenly notice "Wait, nobody's wanting to respond to my emails a year later." Because you created a ... you though you were doing the right thing because you were mission based, you were topic based, you believed in what you were doing, but it wasn't a clear agenda.

Mike:                       You're better off to say if you're a salesperson "Yeah, this is what I'm selling. Yeah, because I believe in it, that's why."

Sean:                       So, we sell a lot through our company and we hold live events. You're actually going to be speaking at one soon. By the way, I've been looking forward to that for four years. So, when we start that event, we come right out and say "Look, we're going to pack this weekend together with great people, great material, and then we're going to, at some point we're going to make an offer to you that may or may not be for you and it's only for those that want to continue the party with me. That want to continue to learn and be guided and have the kind of fun that we're going to have. If that's not of interest to you, just listen and see what you can learn about sales in general and do what you want. You are free to follow your intuition."

Sean:                       And by setting that standard, being very clear, "I'm going to ask for fun tickets." Money, right? "I'm going to ask you for your fun tickets. In exchange I'm going to give you more fun and learning and is it okay if I do it in a way that you get a ton of value for what you already paid for and I'm just sharing with you an opportunity if you want to continue the party. Do I have your permission to make that offer to you?" Everybody said yes.

Mike:                       Right. Exactly. Because you're being upfront. But it's amazing how when we're raised in this society we're taught "Don't do that. Don't show your cards."

Sean:                       Because they think it's not going to work.

Mike:                       Right. It's fear.

Sean:                       Because they think it's not going to work. It's fear. It's also because let's be clear Mike, and I know you know this, but the listener needs to know this, and that is human beings can make a lot of impact financially and movement by screwing people over. And so if you are interpreting that "Oh, I need to screw people over to make movement in income." That's an incorrect statement. Because that's one way. It's not the way I like to roll. It's not the way you like to roll. It's not the way I think your listener would want to roll. But when you're naïve and you're just getting your start and you see somebody and you see that they're getting financial success or they're getting more exposure, you think "Oh, I guess I need to be a jerk."

Sean:                       And it's not true that's ... there are many ways to get inside a house. You can either put dynamite on the side of the wall or you can use a key. They'll both get you in. They'll both gain you entrance. One's going to have a far less devastating impact.

Mike:                       Yeah, that's a great analogy. I love that. And so, we were talking there about the fact of how we go about being upfront and being honest. What do you think is the number one fear people have in that moment? Because agenda is everything. We have agendas with our family. We have agendas with our work.

Sean:                       The word scares people.

Mike:                       Yes. Right, they didn't want to say "I have an agenda." They don't want ... "I don't have an agenda." That's the number one defense you'll hear. "I don't have an agenda." We all have agendas.

Sean:                       What I think they mean is "I don't have a negative agenda." And so that-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Sean:                       ... mean is, I don't have a negative agenda. So that's why you need to be very clear about the difference between empowering and limiting, draining and recharging agendas. I think it's very healing, it's very healing to be clear on your agenda. I could take it into the realm of romance, for a second.

Sean:                       On my first date with my wife, I said, "I would like to sleep with you someday." She was like, "What?" Like, what kind of guy says ... I didn't say it in a slick, gross, pushy way. I just said, someday I'd like to sleep with you. She said she trusted me in that minute. That was the moment she was like, "Oh, my God. This guy just made it very clear what his agenda was."

Sean:                       It didn't meant that I wouldn't be her friend if we weren't gonna do ... There was no manipulation. She's like, "But that was the moment I knew that I could trust you because you told me an actual, authentic agenda. I'd never heard a man confidentially say that." I say that same thing when I get into a sales call.

Sean:                       I say to somebody, "Listen, the opportunity I'm going to offer you is going to be 10 times what you're going to pay me, so I do not feel bad whatsoever in the exchange of receiving the energy that you worked hard to gather because I'm gonna 10X what you're paying for. So I want you to know, I'm going to get really excited by taking your money, because I'm exchanging something way greater for you."

Sean:                       They're like, "Heck yeah. Let's do this." Now, not everybody says, yes I'll pay. But everybody says, let's have a dialogue.

Mike:                       Right.

Sean:                       I just want people to be excited to have the dialogue. Whether it's about romance, whether it's about income, whether it's about progress, movement, making an impact. Let's not be afraid to ask for what we want. If they say no, they say no. It's okay.

Mike:                       How do think that plays ... What would be an example you could think of where that plays in family dynamics and putting the agenda out there?

Sean:                       Making it very clear, the standards that you set for your children, as a parenting role. Like, I have a very clear vision of you graduating with a great GPA. I have a vision of you working really hard on your mind, your body, and your spirit. I'm not asking anything from you that I am not doing myself.

Sean:                       You're going to see dad will be in the gym. You're going to see that dad works hard at Office. You see that dad works on his relationships with your mother. So, I'm not asking anything from you that I'm not willing to go first on, son / daughter / whomever. So being very clear on a vision that you hold. I think that is okay. Having a family, like, mission statement is setting an agenda. I think it's really good to also pull the agenda out of the kid.

Sean:                       Like, so what do you want out of this life? What are some of your goals, sweetie? Or even in a marriage. Like, how can I best support you? So Mindy and I, you were at our wedding. You know that I married my wife because I couldn't afford her coaching rates and I wanted her to coach me. Because she is the wisest, most beautiful person I know.

Sean:                       Mindy's goals are printed out next to my goals because I want to be able to see what's important to her every day. I want her to see what's important to me every day. I came to her multiple times and said, "Let me know what matters to you in this life. I need to know what matters." So I push on people to see, what do they want. So I think when it comes to a family dynamic, making no apologies for having awesome standards.

Sean:                       But here's the difference, nobody is going to be perfect. There are going to be so many days you're not going to want to get back up.

Mike:                       Yes. Kids can feel, if they don't understand this correctly, they can feel that that standard is an expectation of perfecting that.

Sean:                       So that is an imperfection of the communication from the parent, then. Not an imperfection, but just a lack of clarity. So that's why it has to be ... It's the same thing as like ... I heard this great mom talking about raising child and he said, "When a child's learning to walk, funny coming from somebody who doesn't walk. But when a child is learning to walk, you have to encourage them a thousand or a million times if necessary."

Sean:                       "So when they fall and they hit their head, they bump their butt. When they fall back, you pick them back up again. You're just encouraging them. You got it, you got it, good job, good job. You keep going." So you are both holding a standard of, you're going to walk, we're going to make this work. But also, everything that you do in the process of learning to walk, I'm going to support you, and love you, and be proud of you because you're in this process.

Sean:                       So when the kid is like, "But you have this vision for me." Say, "Yeah, but not a day goes by when I'm not gonna celebrate you for just being who you are." I love the quote by Byron Katie, "There is nothing that you can say or do that can stop me from loving you."

Mike:                       Absolutely truthful. Any parent-

Sean:                       It's so-

Mike:                       Any loving parent should get that message a hundred percent. I love that you say to them that, when you tried to walk, I lifted you back up. I supported you, I helped you do that. I'm going to do that with whatever battles, or mistakes, or failures that you have. I'm going to celebrate your success, but I'm also going to be there. You're going to fall. I fall, in some way or form, every week, every day. In some way or form, there's something that doesn't go right.

Sean:                       Yeah and there's something that I also like to have as a caveat when I'm working with people is to say, and at some point when I'm coaching, or I'm there therapist, or their friend. "At some point in the process, sweetie, you're going to blame me for not being where you should be. I want you to know I'm going to love you even when you blame me. I'm just going to patiently wait until you realize that I'm not the reason why you don't have what you want."

Mike:                       That's powerful.

Sean:                       Yeah. I'm not the reason why you don't have what you want, even how you feel. I love my wife. I know you love Karen, right. Yet, we're not responsible for their feelings.

Mike:                       Yeah. That one is huge, because a lot of people feel, "Wait a second. I'm married, it is part of my responsibility to be responsible for their joy and happiness." But more and more research has shown, that actually creates an unhealthy relationship. You should be able to be happy even on their worst day.

Sean:                       Yep.

Mike:                       They should be able to be happy on your worst day. You should obviously be able to be ... you should be able to be unhappy on their best day.

Sean:                       Yeah.

Mike:                       Right?

Sean:                       Yeah. In our marriage, Mindy and I call it, you need to be a self-cleaning oven.

Mike:                       Yeah, right. I love it. But it's hard to do, it's hard to do. Because when you're on a cloud nine-

Sean:                       It's hard not to do.

Mike:                       Yeah.

Sean:                       It's hard.

Mike:                       Yeah. I mean, you and I just had a conversation before we stared this. We're both on cloud right now because of things going on in our work and in our organizations. The day that cloud nine pops, right, this is going amazing. The last thing you want that moment is your partner to go, "Well, it's not going amazing for me, blah, blah, blah." We're like, not today. You shouldn't be saying that today. This is my day to be cloud nine.

Sean:                       That's the way I used to be.

Mike:                       Yeah, I've made the mistake, absolutely made the mistake and it's not fair. They are experiencing their life in their moment.

Sean:                       The moment you ... Talking about respect, the moment you are disrespectful, which is acknowledging, the moment you are not acknowledging a human being ... It's not even valuing now, if you think about it. It's acknowledgement in general. It's the moment you don't acknowledge their feelings, acknowledge their ideas, acknowledge their statements, acknowledge their mannerisms. The moment you stop acknowledging them, you deal with problems.

Mike:                       Yes.

Sean:                       You deal with problems, because look, I could be on cloud nine and if Mindy's not, the most loving thing I could do is to listen to where she is, because this is what partners do. Sometimes, and we don't mean to do it, but sometimes it happens where we try to see if we can rock that person out of their good day because they're pissing us off. The most loving things I can say to her, and she said to me before, is, "Babe, I love you and I'm not gonna come down in my frequency because that's not gonna pull you up."

Mike:                       Yeah, that's brilliant. Love it. It's so hard to do, right. You know, what's interesting is, when we're on cloud nine, it should be the easiest time to be compassionate because we have all this energy. But yet, we get caught up in let me be in my place. Right, let me be in my place. Don't you dare dent that.

Sean:                       Yeah. That right there, though, is from the psychology of the outside world can control my feelings.

Mike:                       Right.

Sean:                       Because if you don't ... Like, I don't buy that anymore. I used to, but I don't buy it whatsoever. So the moment I think that somebody can take me out of my bubble, I'm delusional.

Mike:                       So can you go a little deeper there so everybody can understand, because this is key of respecting yourself.

Sean:                       Yeah, yeah. The moment I think that you can shift my frequency, is the moment that I become a slave to you. The moment I go on a roller coaster that is where you can energetically manipulate me. It's the moment that I'm delusional. You are not responsible for how I feel. You can neither make me have a good day or make have a bad day.

Sean:                       You can influence me, but you can't change me. I have to do the lifting. Nobody can do Sean's pushups, energetically, or metaphorically, or physically. I have to do them. So if I'm on cloud nine and I come along and Mindy is angry, or overwhelmed, or upset and I'm like, "Damn it, why can't she be on the same plane as me." I am being delusional because she doesn't need to do anything to support my bubble. That's my responsibility.

Sean:                       Now, I might say to her, "Babe, if you would like me around this evening, I'm gonna need you to say some nicer things about me. If you do not want to say nicer things about me, I'm okay with going out and doing some things in the office or whatever. Just text me when you feel-"

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Sean:                       -some things in the office, or whatever, and I'll ... Just text me when you feel that the storm has rolled out. And-

Mike:                       Right, because this is really important for abusive situations. You don't want the listening right now thinking, "Oh, I have to tolerate. They're in their space; I'm in my space. So I have to tolerate that because I'm responsible for my happiness. They're responsible ..." So, how do you help people understand there's a difference here in what we're describing?

Sean:                       Light is both a wave and a particle, okay? Light, when you look at light, it's got waves and it's also got little particles? So, is light one or the other? No. It's both, right? So, you need to be able to respect your own boundaries and also maintain a level of a standard for how you want to be treated. So, no one is responsible for how you feel, but you are responsible for respecting your boundaries, and saying to somebody, "If you're gonna speak to me that way, or if you're gonna ever put your hands on me, or if ever you're going to try to do that demeaning behavior, I'm out. I maybe be either out for the night, out for the month, or out for my life." But you gotta determine.

Sean:                       I look at it whether it's in a relationship that can become abusive, because I've been in abusive relationships where I was mentally, emotionally abused. I can tell you, it came because I only had half the equation. I thought I was only a wave, or only a particle. I thought, "Well, I need to be responsible for my own feelings. So, they can keep beating on me emotionally, energetically." Then, I woke up and went, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, that's only half the equation. The other half is I gotta draw a line in the sand and say, 'This is the level of respect that I request out of human beings that are in my presence.'" I tell people constantly, you don't have to worry about knowing where you stand with Sean. I'll let you know.

Mike:                       Right. So, let's say the person who is an abusive situation, since we went there, is in an abusive situation and has serious, physical fear. There is actual danger to their life. So there is the separation of, "Geez, if I say those words, they could kill me in the next hour." And there is it, that at least I know those words to be true to me, that maybe I am not at a place that I can verbally say those words right now. But I know them to be true to me. Is that the key there.

Sean:                       Yeah, and it's deeper than that, which is, it starts within you first. Then, you have to-

Mike:                       Yeah, it's starting to know that I deserve to be treated a certain way. We're not saying any blame at all on the abuse. You're responding to, it starts with me knowing I deserve to be respected.

Sean:                       We're talking about your own worth and value.

Mike:                       Right. Correct.

Sean:                       That starts within you, and then, if you are in that toxic place, let's talk about that. I've been in toxic places. Sometimes it takes a while to plan your escape and you need to be loving toward yourself in the process. It's kind of like the movie Shawshank Redemption. It took him a long time to chip away at that wall, and let the little rocks out in the yard. Sometimes, that's what people need to do. Now, sometimes it's so dangerous that they've gotta figure out a way to get out there faster.

Sean:                       Neither you nor I are in any of these people's shoes. So, we're not saying we have 100% understanding of them. However, we have 100% appreciation and acknowledgement of the pain they're in. I personally believe that negativity ... All violence is, is negativity that's just not been dealt with over time, and then it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. Usually nobody starts out violent. It's built up over time.

Sean:                       Now, when you meet somebody who is verbally, physically, emotionally, sexually, intellectually, whatever it may be, manipulative and abusive, that was a stew that they've been cooking in for a long time. That doesn't make it right, but what I have learned in working with these people as a therapist is, some of the best things that you can do is know that you need to keep yourself away from toxic people, toxic energy, toxic places. Sometimes, it may take you time to plan your escape, but you better have a plan. You better know how you're going to get out of something that is dangerous, either physically, emotionally, any of those other levels. I will tell you, it takes courage to leave sometime that you fear.

Mike:                       Absolutely.

Sean:                       You fear for your life. It's not even just ... The fear for your life is something that's so clear for people to see, but what about people who are being abused spiritually, energetically, emotionally? They don't leave scars. Mean words don't leave physical scars on the body for the police to see, and so that's sometimes just as hard, if not harder, to be like, "Wow, I need to get away. This is killing my soul. This is draining me."

Sean:                       What it really comes down to, for me and what I've experienced, speaking only for myself, is "What will you tolerate?" What are you ... And not tolerate, what do you want from life? What do you want from other people, in terms of, what standard are you willing to hold. Mindy would've never entered into a relationship with somebody that was physically abusive because the moment somebody was even slightly degraded to my wife, she would have been gone in a conversation. She would've never given them a second date, never respond to their calls, because she has such a high threshold bar of how she will be treated.

Mike:                       Right. Now, I wanna be clear. If someone's listening, we're not implying because you don't, you weren't taught that far, that it's your fault, like Mindy did it right, and you did it wrong. It's a matter of, "No, can I shift now? Can I shift the paradigm to know I always deserve to be treated with that dignity? With that respect? I can choose it. This roller coaster doesn't have to exist forever. There's a point I can choose to get off, that's the planned escape. There's a point because I deserve to be treated." So, how do you help somebody, and we're getting towards the end here, I know it's tough to do quickly. In 30 seconds to one minute, what's a gift you can give someone to help them realize their value?

Sean:                       Yeah, it's what Mindy had to do and anybody would have to do to get to that level. You have to have impeccable self-care. If you take care of your mind, your body, your spirit. You are exercising to pull out the toxins, you are journaling to acknowledge your own feelings, you're meditating and praying, you're surrounding yourself with empowering people, you're reading empowering messages, you're listening to programs like this, you are continuing to put yourself in empowering environments. It makes it easier and easier to head in the right direction because if you wanna respect yourself, then you have to take care of yourself. You wouldn't trust a nurse or a doctor that didn't take good care of you. You have to be the great person first, to take care of yourself first, to get the strength to know what you deserve.

Mike:                       Love it. Thank you, Sean. Now, for all of our listeners, your book is Get Off Your But. It's an awesome book. And people, it's not just talking about the physical butt, it's talking about the "But, I would, but..." and it's sensational-

Sean:                       B-U-T, yeah.

Mike:                       Yeah. It's sensational. In addition to your own book, what's a book that you think is a game changer for people's lives, that had a major impression, impact on your life?

Sean:                       I would say The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Mike:                       Awesome book. Yeah, yeah. So, we'll have that link for everyone listening. Sean, you know how much I love you. Thank you so much for sharing with everybody on today's show.

Sean:                       Absolutely.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datasafeproject.org. And remember, you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:20]

Heath Phillips joined the Navy when he was 17 years old. He grew up in a military style family; his father was in the Army and had Uncles that served in Vietnam.  Heath's stepfather was also in the Army.  Being in the Military was all he ever wanted; he wanted to serve his country.  At the time in 1988 the only branch that would him at his age with a GED was the Navy.  On May 3 1988, exactly one week after his 17th birthday Heath was in boot camp and stationed in Orlando, Florida. From the start it was everything he was told about from his family.  He was treated excellent; he even goes on to say "I was kinda babied by the platoon C144" most likely because of his age.  Heath was treated like family; everyone was willing to look out for the "kid" (his nickname). Upon graduation Heath was then stationed in Meridian, Miss.  He went to school to become a Ships Serviceman. Once again, he was treated like a family member.  Upon leaving Meridian, Miss. Heath went home to visit his Mom, Dad and stepfamily where everyone was so proud. 

 

Heath reported to the USS Butte AE 27 on Labor Day weekend per his orders. Upon arriving to the ship he was greeted to a dirty looking ship which was nothing like he imagined.  A group of shipmates where leaving the ship and invited Heath to come hang out with them for the weekend. Heath went with them to a hotel in New York City.  Heath had two drinks and really wasn’t much of a drinker and fell asleep.  He woke up with his cloths clothes pulled down and guys doing "stuff" to him such as guys masturbating on my face; instantly he was terrified.  Crying, he locked himself in the bathroom. His shipmates told him they were only kidding around, it was an initiation and they all went through it.  Heath's report of the assault only brought more assaults. After returning to the Butte, he told a senior leader what had happened, and was told he was lying.  The assaults just escalated from there; it turned into game to the perpetrators.  Heath was terrorized by constant harassment to include pulling him out of bed and rubbing their genitals in his face; but he was always called a liar. 

 

Heath Phillips is a Military Sexual Assault survivor and a Public speaker on the topic of (MST - Military Sexual Trauma) and also speaks on Bystander Intervention. 

 

Heath is originally from Protect Our Defenders, an organization that honors, supports and gives a voice to the brave women and men in uniform who have been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members.   Heath Phillips has chosen to be a speaker in order to relay his story, the effects it has had on him, the obstacles he had/has to overcome, and most importantly educate our Soldiers in regards to the damage sexual assault and hazing does to anyone (to include males). 

  

 

 

 

or at:

 

WATCH THE RAW VIDEO OF THE INTERVIEW AT:
https://youtu.be/R45OjmqJ4lE

READ THE FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW (or download the pdf):

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike Domitrz:                      Welcome to the Respect podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the US military create a culture of respect. And respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike Domitrz:                      This weeks special guest is Heath Phillips. Now if you haven't heard of Heath, or you haven't met Heath before, Heath is a military sexual assault survivor and a public speaker on the topic of MST. MST is military sexual trauma. He also speaks on bi standard intervention. Now Heath is originally from Protect Our Defenders, an organization that honors, supports, and gives a voice to the brave women and men in uniform who've been raped or sexually assaulted by fellow service members. Heath has chosen to be a speaker in order to relay his story, the effects it has had on him, the obstacles he has had and has to overcome, and most importantly to educate our soldiers in regards to the damage sexual assault and hazing does to anyone, including males. So Heath, I want to thank you very much for joining us.

Heath Phillips:                    All right, thank you. I appreciate you for allowing to be on this.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely, and your story is so powerful that I don't want to be the one trying to tell this on your behalf. I'd like to start with you being able to tell it, so how did you get to where you are today, Heath?

Heath Phillips:                    The BS with you. When I got discharged I was already an alcoholic. I was already drinking heavily. I was 18. I spent close to 20 years just spiraling downhill, worse and worse and worse. It came to the point where it was either going to commit suicide or get better, and final straw was believe it or not, the date is still embedded in my brain. February 3rd, 2009. Driving home, I was to the point where I was so drunk I had to drive with one eye, and there's just way too many roads. And I wanted to die. And today I still thank God that somehow I blanked out from that point to getting home, and that was when reality actually set in. That I needed help.

Heath Phillips:                    I cried for the first time in 20 years. I dumped everything that I had out in my home that was alcohol related. Any type of narcotics, drugs, anything. I even got rid of my cigarettes the same day. And from that forward I have actually been drug, alcohol, and cigarette free. And no, I've never done AA, any of them exciting things that people do. My AA is not wanting to be where I was, and that's kind of what lit a fire in me to not just better myself, but to be a better father, a better figurehead, just a better person in general. And that's kind of how I started to move forward.

Mike Domitrz:                      How much of a time gap was there from being discharged to you having that moment in 2009?

Heath Phillips:                    I got discharged July 26th of 1989. My first day of sobriety was February 4th of 2009. So it was just under a 20 year gap of being discharged to when I became ... my first day of sobriety.

Mike Domitrz:                      All right, and people listening might have caught earlier that you said, "When I was just discharged at 19." They might be thinking in their mind well he couldn't have been in that long, so what-

Heath Phillips:                    I said I was discharged at 18.

Mike Domitrz:                      At 18. Okay.

Heath Phillips:                    I joined at 17.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right so, so a year or so roughly, so now that's got people thinking, "Okay, wow, a lot must have happened in that year for that to have occurred." But during those 20 years, were you addressing that or is that the masking of the alcohol and the drugs?

Heath Phillips:                    I tried to. Due to the discharge that I had, I had an other than honorable. The VA would not help me, period. So I had a hard time keeping employment due to my alcoholism. I didn't know I had post traumatic stress disorder. I didn't know why I couldn't be near men. I couldn't handle being near it. The anxiety levels, you know, I, constant nightmares. But I didn't know what was wrong. So what I did was I just drank. That was how I coped. So there was like no help for me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right, you were not ... The sexual violence was not being addressed because you weren't that deep in yet to figure out what was causing the drinking and the drugs because you didn't get the support you needed to get on that journey.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and so because of how you were discharged, even though you were a survivor, because of what you were given, the form of discharge you were given, there was no support available to you. So now you're alone, and the alcohol and the drugs was coping, if I'm understanding correctly?

Heath Phillips:                    That's how I cope. That's how I stopped.

Mike Domitrz:                      So then, then you clear the house. I mean that's a ... So then you clear the house of all the alcohol, everything, and say, "I'm going to change." What gets you into the process of having the self awareness, the discovery of where's the pain that caused all this in the first place?

Heath Phillips:                    Believe it or not Google. I got to give Google props. So I started Googling things because I didn't know what was wrong. I didn't know why I was having nightmares, flashbacks, and I didn't know what was causing this. So I started Googling kind of like what happened to me in the military, and started reading papers because while I was in, there was a congressional investigation done on my case. And one of the mental health people wrote that I had post traumatic stress disorder. So my command had already, was aware that I had this. So I tried finding out what everything meant, and then I started finding out that I was not the only rape victim or survivor or whatever you want to call it, from the military.

Heath Phillips:                    And I started reaching out, and I started meeting more survivors, and that's when my curiosity started getting the better of me because they were going through what I was going through. So I was like how do we fix this? How do we help each other? Then things just kept moving forward and forward, and that's when Protect Our Defenders started to launch. And I did the video with them. In 2011, we met in Washington DC, a whole group of survivors, myself included. And outside of, I'm kind of red neckish, you know, I live in a country so I'm not used to the suits, and that attire. So I show up in Washington DC. I'm wearing jeans, flannel shirt untucked, and we go to the Capitol Hill, and we're at the press box, and everyone's in suits. I'm dressed all down, but they didn't care.

Heath Phillips:                    They brought me on stage as the men's survivor. Kindest woman, Jackie Spear, was introducing a sexual assault bill at the time called Stop Act. Protect Our Defenders launched their name that day, and nobody cared. It was ... The way I explain it, is, it's a lot like these six guys did all these horrific things to me. That's why I had a bad, like an anger towards the military for allowing it to happen. Allowing to kick me out, but when I met these other survivors, there was like no animosity towards them because they were in the military. It was vulnerable. Like a kinmanship, and I mean still today, we all talk. We do our own things, but we still all talk. And it was like having that family that I never had because I lost a lot in that 20 year bad part of my life. But it was just like a unity that nobody could understand. It was a unity that I should have had when I was in the military with my fellow shipmates.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and you talk about that. You talk about that before the hazing. Because that, for those listening, the form of sexual assault that you experienced was very much what some would call a hazing form of sexual assault. It was done by a group, as a form of initiation to you. Prior to that though because that was when you started actually serving on your first ship. Prior to that you were loving the military, from what you've shared. You felt that brotherhood that you're talking about right now.

Heath Phillips:                    Yeah, yeah. I'm an Army brat so I kind of grew up in the military culture, and it's something my dad never spoke about because my dad, mister tough guy, you know, but there's nothing I knew would happen. Boot camp was just, I mean it was a family. It was exactly what my family talked about. My commander was my dad, kinda like, and these guys were my shipmates were like my brothers. And we had each other's back. It was a ... probably one of the tightest units I've ever seen, and it was boot camp. And it was kind of incredible because at 17, that was my first initiation into the military, was boot camp. And seeing how tight knit, everybody had my back, I had their back, and then going to a ship and your first day within hours you're being sexually assaulted. It was like what just happened? It was like reading Cinderella and happened into at a Freddy Kruger movie. So it was just mind blowing.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and what's amazing is you did report.

Heath Phillips:                    That's that.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and multiple times. What was the response you were getting?

Heath Phillips:                    My very first time I reported. I'll never forget the look on Master Arm's face. It was like dumbfounded, and then it was disgusted, and then he immediately called me a liar. And then he wanted to know how old I was. I was like, "I'm 17." He says, "Oh," he goes, "You must be a mama's boy. So you're homesick. That's why you're saying these things." I'm like, I was baffled, I was like, "No." For all I was homesick, you know, I wasn't homesick. And I was like, "No, I'm not lying. This happened." And it was just-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Heath Phillips:                    ... it's like, "No, I'm not lying, this happened." And it was just like non-stop "You're a liar, you're a liar, you're a liar." 49 days before I first snapped, 49 days of reporting this ... it was always the same result "You're a liar, you're a liar, where's your proof? Doesn't happen."

Mike Domitrz:                      Do you think, Heath, that they didn't want to believe it was happening, but knew it was happening? And by calling you a liar was their way of covering up? Or do you think they honestly didn't believe this was possible?

Heath Phillips:                    They knew. Back then I didn't know they knew, but they knew.

Heath Phillips:                    I mean, on the 49th day, when I tried hanging myself, Chief [inaudible 00:11:45] officer brings me down, and he smacked me in my face, told me I needed to man up and fight for myself, basically. It kind of clicked, like "He knows. He doesn't even look at my birthing area, and he knows."

Heath Phillips:                    Two of my attackers, they had 17 other victims. So it's not like it wasn't a known thing, it's just nobody cared. They would rather avoid the situation and hide from it, than have to admit that this really happens. And to me that's very sickening.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely. And this isn't just a military thing, we've seen this happen throughout many different levels of our culture, where people cover up instead of wanting to deal with the reality of what's going on in their organization, their community, their institution. We see this happen in many different levels.

Mike Domitrz:                      Since that time, since 11, you've started speaking out, and what a lot of people don't realize, you and I know, because we speak on military installations. There's an image out there that the military's still operating the way it's always operated, the way it was operating 20 years ago, 10 years, and no one cares about this topic, and everybody's trying to cover it up. The reality is, yeah when you have hundreds of thousands of people in an organization, there is still sexual violence, absolutely. There are still some that are working to cover it up.

Mike Domitrz:                      At the same time, there are very passionate professionals out there, many.

Heath Phillips:                    Many.

Mike Domitrz:                      Who are working hard in the military to stop this from ever happening to another human being again. And in fact, you and I get to work with the majority of people who have that passion, have that fire. But I want you to be able to speak to that. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe that's what I see, where I'm traveling the world working the military. Do you feel the same, or do you think "No, we don't have enough people ..." I mean, we want more, obviously.

Heath Phillips:                    I'll be honest with you, it has come a long way. Phenomenal. If I would have reported this now, [inaudible 00:13:57], here and now and this is happening to me, so many different options that can help me. I can be transferred, I can get moved, this person get transferred ... You will have cover-ups, that's a gimme, but the cover-ups now are nothing compared to what they were 20 years ago. 'Cause this is more of an eggshell issue, and I'll be honest with you, I speak for the SHARP Divisions, Sexual Harassment Assault Response Programs, and these people are so dedicated. I'll be honest with you, it sucks that we have to have these programs, but I'm glad that we do, because now there's somebody to actually help a victim, where, like in my case, there's nothing. The alcohol is what helped me.

Heath Phillips:                    They also have a program where now they're talking about bystander intervention, which is something that I touch on, because for me it's a personal issue, because being on-board my ship and not having one person ever extend the hand out to help me ... That's just as harmful to me as when I was being assaulted.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and what a lot of people don't realize is today you have in the SHARP program now, if it's Navy it would be called SAPER, but you have victim advocates, and you have a sark, and some of those people can be civilians, some of those people can be active duty, but there are very specific roles they play that guarantee confidentiality unless you want to pursue the case in a Judicial format, and that would be called an unrestricted. But you can go restrict it and have a one-on-one conversation that stays completely confidential, and a lot of people just don't realize this, and at the time, in nine, even if that existed, they weren't doing the training to teach you that existed, or what was available to you. Where now they have to go through training on a regular.

Mike Domitrz:                      I always tell people, they think "Oh colleges are better at this than the military." No, no, no, no, no. Colleges might hear about this at orientation, the military has to go through this training every year of their career, so they know all the resources that are available.

Heath Phillips:                    And sometimes somebody has to do it twice a year.

Mike Domitrz:                      That's right.

Heath Phillips:                    Even more beneficial.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and when it gets really beneficial is when they realize installations, regions, department of defense, realizes just doing our three hour mandated department of defense training is not enough. We need to bring people like Heath in, we need to bring ... that's why we get to do the work we do, because installations realized we need outsiders with unique perspectives, not just people from within.

Mike Domitrz:                      Now you also are an outsider, but you come from within.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes. And I also bring something different than Power Point. Yesterday I spoke at Fort [inaudible 00:16:56] with victim advocates. I do that monthly, I go and speak to their classes, and I give them a different perspective, 'cause now it's personal.

Heath Phillips:                    I think with any based installation DOD, even the Pentagon would be able to benefit from people like you and I coming in, because we make it personal, we make it not the generic form that you're seeing from their Power Points and paperwork. We bring in our whole entire ... everything, and they're like "Oh, shoot. Wow." They don't realize all the things that really happen.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      So what do you say to the person listening who maybe is old school military? And I know you've gotten this push ... I'm guessing you've gotten this pushback, 'cause I certainly get it in comments section of articles on my work, the trollers of what's happened to our military that they're worrying about this stuff instead of killing the enemy? How do you react to that, do you see that stuff, or do you just blow it off? How do you view that when you see that kind of trolling?

Heath Phillips:                    See, I get that trolling occasionally. Like Senator [inaudible 00:18:10] working on the Military Justice Improvement Act, which I'm on the fence with it, I see both sides, so-

Mike Domitrz:                      Can we pause and help people understand the both sides, 'cause you and I know the act, but a lot of people don't. I believe you're specifically referring to whether these should all be handled civilian, or they should be handled at the military level. Because what happens now is in the end, it's a military justice.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      And even if civilians are involved, it goes through military justice. Joe Miranda's saying "Hey no, we've got to take that element out of it", but then leadership says "Whoa, whoa, whoa, that breaks down the whole military environment." And that's why you're saying I see both sides.

Heath Phillips:                    I think what bothers me is ... for one, it's politics. But for two, if we take this away from the command, what are we going to take away next? That's how I look at it.

Heath Phillips:                    SHARP is not perfect, but, like anything else, once you start getting the wheels spinning, and you get all the bugs, and you figure out everything, that's how you start making things better. I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying it's right, it's just ... that's how I see it. They want me on-board with them, and it's kind of hard to get on board with you're on the fence, so it's like sell it to me. And so far I haven't been sold, so-

Mike Domitrz:                      You know what, I love, Heath, that you're addressing this, and you're sharing your authentic view, because our show's all about respect.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      And so to pressure someone into a belief they don't have is not respectful.

Mike Domitrz:                      Now to educate somebody to shift their beliefs, that's a different discussion. That's because they make the choice based on education. But to say we all must feel this way, because we all come from a like-minded situation ... no, we're still going to be unique in this. I think that's what's so important to your discussion is ... a lot of people "Well, jeez, as a military survivor, of course we're going to say civilian, it should all be civilian, especially the way you were treated." And yet you're going "Wait, I still have ... in understanding the military system that I honor and I respect," and I think that's probably, for some, surprising.

Heath Phillips:                    Yeah. That's where I get my lovely ... I call them zombies, you call them trolls, that's where I get them. They're like "What do you mean you're not on-board? We're survivors! We stick together!" Yeah, we're supposed to stick together, but I'm one of the few survivors that actually goes on bases, I'm one of the few survivors that actually works with DOD, so I am the eyes that sees the change that's starting to happen. Culture changes can be probably the hardest thing to ever do in this world, it takes time, but it's just like inventions. How did it take us to decide we wanted to use the wheel? It takes time.

Heath Phillips:                    To implement a bill to immediately destroy something that's been going on for years in a chain of command, you really have to weigh the pros and the cons. And that's why I said I see both sides, that's why I'm on the fence, because ... maybe if you word it differently, maybe if you make it so they work together? Then yes. But to just take something straight away from a commander kind of bothers me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Sure. I respect it, 'cause you understand the hierarchy you worked in, and you grew up in it, too. And so that brings a different perspective, you grew up in a family-

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Mike Domitrz:                      You grew up in it too-

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      ... and so that brings a different perspective. You grew up in a family environment of military and so that has an impact too. What are the ways that you feel ... Obviously all sexual violence is a lack of someone being treated with respect and this show is all about respect.

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      There's a complete lack of it. So what do you think is the number one connection you make when you're sharing with people, of anyone to try to help them understand the importance of respect and dignity and how that lacks when this behavior takes place?

Heath Phillips:                    Well, I'll be honest with you, I have this method that I've been using for the last year. I don't do it at every event that I do. But I share my experiences, what happened to me. Then at the end I turn it around and I ask everybody to close her eyes, the whole audience close their eyes. Then I start doing this reverse psychology gizmo that I once learned, and I ask them, "You guys heard everything I said. Now start putting that into feelings. You're in the military. What if this was your mom and dad that came and talked to you? Process how you would start feeling." Then I throw it out, "What if it was your brother or sister?" If I got an older crowd, I'll ask them, "Well, what if this was your son or your daughter that came and talked to you about this?"

Heath Phillips:                    Then my last thing I always say, "And better yet, what if this was you? What if this was you up here sharing this? How would you feel? How would you want things to change? What would your response be?" I'll be honest with you, I've had grown men cry. I didn't think I would ever get that effect, but I have. Then I asked them to open their eyes and then I start interacting with them. I'm like, "Hey, how would you feel? What would you want different?" I think that goes a long way because the answers you start getting back is like, "Well, I'd want my command to help me. I would want them to listen. I would want," as you're saying, "the same respect that I should be getting." It's just amazing how differently they are when I do that.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. It humanizes.

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      It totally humanizes the discussion.

Heath Phillips:                    Especially when you know, I nail them when they're half asleep-

Mike Domitrz:                      Well I think that's what people don't realize. You know someone-

Heath Phillips:                    ... because they don't [crosstalk 00:24:31]. They fall asleep-

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. That's what people don't realize is that some people are coming to these planning to sleep because they think they've heard it all before. And when I say that, I don't want people listening thinking all. You know it could be two out of a hundred, but when you're presenting you notice two people sleeping out of a hundred.

Heath Phillips:                    I call myself an a-hole on this, but if I'm spending my time coming up there, and it's not pinpointing them to get them in trouble. In mids, because I walk, I can't stand at the podium. I walk. I'll point and say, "Hey you, where are you from?" Just to give a point so that, "Hey, give me some respect. I'm up here doing this."

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. Well and that's just it and that's what people don't-

Heath Phillips:                    I do that all the time.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, and people don't realize that. People go, "Oh you're picking on them." I'm not picking on them. I'm engaging. It's my job to impact as many people as possible in that room. So if I see you're not engaging, it's my job to engage you. Now, that doesn't mean you're going to like me or you're going to want to listen to me, but I have to at least attempt the engagement and that's what I love what you're describing. You're making sure that you're engaging them, which is actually respecting them, right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      Because I'm going to make sure your time is valuable in here. You came in here. I want to make this an amazing experience ideally for you.

Heath Phillips:                    And also I don't want to see them like get [PT'd 00:25:51] outside because they're caught sleeping.

Mike Domitrz:                      That's right. Because that will, for those who aren't aware what will happen is-

Heath Phillips:                    I got, there are six unfortunately. Sometimes it's unfortunate, but you know I got there six, and in different directions. I'll give you an example. I spoke at Fort Leonard Wood this year and the guy right in the front role was nodding and nodding. I was trying to ignore him because I didn't want to make him get in trouble. So what I did is, I asked a question of the lady behind him, but I bumped into his leg. That way he kind of opened up his eyes and then I stopped talking and I said, "Oh, and let me ask you this." He came up and thanked me afterwards. He just said, "Oh," he said, "I really didn't want to do pushups today." You know like, "It's cool, man."

Mike Domitrz:                      And to be fair, you and I know this, our listeners might not realize, sometimes I go into this training after a full workload and I mean a heavy physically exhausting work load and this is the end of the day.

Heath Phillips:                    Not only that, but some of these guys haven't sat all day.

Mike Domitrz:                      Right.

Heath Phillips:                    You know they're out all day long, rucking it or something and then they're coming in and the air's on because I'm there to speak so they don't want it hot for me. I don't know, but so now they're in a comfortable area. So I understand because I remember bootcamp and I remember rucking all day and then sitting down in class going, "Ahhh," you know.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. What do you think is the biggest misconception about military sexual trauma?

Heath Phillips:                    That only happens to women. I think that is the biggest misconception out there. Period.

Mike Domitrz:                      What do you think is the biggest misconception about the military in this topic?

Heath Phillips:                    That they don't care, because I know they do.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah.

Heath Phillips:                    I see it when I go to the bases. I know they care.

Mike Domitrz:                      They do, they do.

Heath Phillips:                    I don't go for the challenge coin. I don't go for their certificates. I go and Fort Bliss their general is like so strict on sexual assault.

Mike Domitrz:                      Were you there recently?

Heath Phillips:                    I was, I spoke there last year.

Mike Domitrz:                      Okay. Yeah. I know who you're talking about. So that's it. Yes.

Heath Phillips:                    He is like, "That's not just happening in my command," and I'm like, "Whoa. Wow." He's strict. So you know, that I respect.

Mike Domitrz:                      Well, the ones who show fire change the game. Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Yes.

Mike Domitrz:                      When you have leadership that says ... Now like in that situation, "I'm not going to allow this in my command, but I'm also going to support survivors if it does happen." Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      And shows that versus the ones that goes, "All right, let's get through this. We got to get through it." That's not leadership. That's towing the line to follow the requirements versus-

Heath Phillips:                    [crosstalk 00:28:52] few of them events.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yup. You'll meet them. They sometimes support you coming in because then they don't have to address it. Right?

Heath Phillips:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mike Domitrz:                      So you get two different kinds of leadership. But when you get the leader who's fired up you're like, "I want to keep working with you because you're going to keep reinforcing the right messages and that's so important." So I'm glad you brought that up. This misconception that nobody cares in the military when there's thousands, I mean literally thousands of people in the military who care deeply about [crosstalk 00:29:19].

Heath Phillips:                    Well look at how large the military is. I think that's another misconception that people have. The military is huge. So to actually keep an eye on every single person is never going to happen. We're overseas. We're inland or on the seas. We're in the air. So how can a commander keep an eye? Yes, it trickles down to the lower levels but-

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah. That's where bystander intervention comes in. You talk about that and we talk about that because then you get it down to the individuals all looking out for each other, which is so important

Heath Phillips:                    Right.

Mike Domitrz:                      Heath, you've been amazing. Fantastic.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you so much for having me.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you for everything you do.

Mike Domitrz:                      Oh. Like you we do this because we love what we're doing.

Heath Phillips:                    Thank you, Mike.

Mike Domitrz:                      Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect Podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org, and remember you can always find me at mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:30:27]

 

 

 

www.survjustice.org 

 

 

 

**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

 

Mike:                       Welcome to the Respect Podcast. I'm your host, Mike Domitrz, from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions, and the U.S. military create a culture of respect. Respect is exactly what we discuss on this show, so let's get started.

Mike:                       This week's guest is Laura Dunn, and her track record is amazing. I want to give you a little bit of background on Laura. She advances victims rights through legislative and policy efforts, as well as direct representation of survivors in campus, criminal, and civil systems.

Mike:                       As a nationally recognized victim turned victim rights attorney and social entrepreneur, her work's been featured on NPR, National Public Radio, People Magazine, Forbes, The National Blog Journal, The New York Times, and many more.

Mike:                       Some of this I'm going to save for our discussion because she's done so much, and the bio here, it's incredible, but as a highlight, for example, she's obviously an attorney now, representing cases with SURVJUSTICE, S-U-R-V-J-U-S-T-I-C-E. They are the only national non-profit representing victims of campus sexual violence in hearings across country, and currently the lead plaintiff in a pending federal lawsuit against the current administration over Title IX.

Mike:                       Her work has received awards and recognitions, including the 2015 Echoing Green Global Fellowship, the 2016 Benjamin Cardin Public Service Award, the 2017 Special Courage Award for the U.S. Department of Justice's Office for Victims of Crime, and the 2018 TED Fellowship, so thank you so much for joining us, Laura.

Laura:                     Thanks for having me on.

Mike:                       Absolutely, and to get right into it here, you know, the show's all about respect. How did you come to the place where you are today, doing the work you're doing?

Laura:                     That's a great question. Unfortunately, like too many people, I had a negative experience in college. I had two men that I knew and trusted from being on the same sports team with me, and they made a decision to sexually harm me when I had been drinking and was unable to either consent or defend myself, so because of this unfortunate experience with sexual violence, I became an advocate first in trying to fight for myself, but I realized that I was fighting for many more. It is now my career.

Laura:                     I did found SURVJUSTICE. I'm no longer there, I've moved on and transitioned. I'm at the Fierberg National Law Group, where I continue to do litigation, not just for sexual assault survivors, but all survivors of campus crime, including gun violence and hazing.

Mike:                       Oh, okay, and so there, when you say representing survivors, for those who aren't aware, so survivor on campus comes forward, they file a complaint, at what point is there a need for someone to reach out to an attorney such as yourself to be represented?

Laura:                     It's a wonderful question. I think there's a very big norm in our society that if you're accused of something, you right away get an attorney, get advice, and you're very cautious and careful. There is this belief that if you're a victim, that you can just access the process, and it'll work perfectly, and you'll be fine. Unfortunately, so many survivors find out that systems that are meant to protect them don't always do that, so campuses aren't always acting in the best interest of students who are victimized. Law enforcement, campus security, other organizations sometimes try to push away survivors and their voices, so it's fully fine to make that initial report and to go and right away try to get organizations and institutions to support you if that's their role, but if you're skeptical that that will occur, if you're already getting signs that there isn't support, I would actually contact an attorney or an advocate immediately because the moment you start making a complaint, things can either go really well, or unfortunately, sometimes in the cases I see, they go really poorly from square one.

Mike:                       Yeah, and when we're traveling the world talking about this, we always tell [inaudible 00:03:53], in reaching out to a local advocate, a local crisis center, who has been down this road with other survivors, who knows the possibilities of support that are available to you, and when somebody's showing red flags in that system, the troubles there, is helpful to at least help you understand that, no, that's not okay, what they just said to you, or what they just asked you, and you do deserve to be represented and supported. I think it's wonderful. I think a lot of times people think, 'Oh, a student goes forward, the system failed them, nothing they can do.' For them to hear from you, no, there's people like you out there, who are saying, "We can represent you, we can fight for you because you deserve that."

Laura:                     Absolutely, and we see so many cases where if we had gotten involved a little earlier ... I would say this all the time at SURVJUSTICE, if someone had just called us first, it would be a different game. If you're in a situation where you're not getting academic support, there's no safety measured, they're encouraging you to take a medical leave, get off campus, you definitely need to be making a call.

Laura:                     Advocates can be very helpful, but sometimes real action is needed. Attorneys and advocated alike can offer confidentiality and privilege, which is very important to protect your privacy, and getting information about your rights, and then starting to advance them.

Mike:                       Yeah, and you and I know that due to the media coverage of Title IX, a lot of people go, "Well, why is this necessary? I mean, Title IX is tilted to survivors, and if they come forward, everybody's going to believe them, and the system's going to protect them. I mean, this whole Title IX thing, that's all it does. In fact, it's slanted against people who are accused." These are the comments we hear in the media all the time.

Mike:                       Can you explain the reality of actually how this works on many campuses? There are campuses where it's wonderful, and it's supportive, but this is not always the case.

Laura:                     Yeah, I definitely think it's important to recognize that in the last decade there's been a shift, right. Back in 2010, the Center for Public Integrity, National Public Radio, really exposed campus sexual assault for the first time through an investigative series, and showed the opposite of all the comments you were just saying, that actually victims weren't being supported, weren't being believed, and even if the rare case, where someone was like, "Yes, you were in fact harmed. We're going to give the consequence to the person who harmed you," it was meaningless. It was writing essays about how not to rape someone, and that was the only consequence. It was watching videos, again, from student orientation, for a second time, or having a summer suspension.

Laura:                     Really, the media dialogue, at first, was exposing how survivors are mistreated. There's obviously been a backlash, people who represent those who are accused saying, "This is unfair," and in my opinion, I'm obviously a victim's rights attorney, so you can obviously say that I'm biased towards my side, I think people just aren't used to what accountability looks like. Accountability does mean someone is found responsible through an appropriate process for sexual violence, and they're not being favored and catered to, and allowed to continue threatening, or otherwise harassing someone in the interim.

Laura:                     You know, there's a lot of accusations on both sides, and really, it's important to remember what Title IX is. It is a federal civil right that protects any person, not just men, not just women, any person from discrimination on the basis of sex, and that includes in the form of sexual harassment and sexual violence. This is on the campus level, and at the civil level, you can also go to court and force it.

Laura:                     That's very different than the criminal level, which has a whole different process enshrined in the constitution. The campus and civil level are lower level means of legal advocacy, and of course, can give meaningful results to survivors, such as academic accommodations and support, but at the end of the day, are trying to make sure someone who is harmed by sexual violence can continue to access their education on campus free from any hostility created by someone who's accused of perpetrating against them until there has been an ultimate finding whether or not that did occur.

Laura:                     I hope that answered your question.

Mike:                       Absolutely.

Mike:                       Often people are saying, "Hey, why isn't this" ... There's been a few states that have tried to, and one that did put it through, that have tried to say, "This should all be criminal, this should not be dealt with by schools. This should only be dealt with by the court systems and the judicial system." Many of us who know this work knows that that could highly deter survivors from coming forward in the first place. Can you explain what the problem is with that, with this idea that the moment a campus knows about a case, it should all be handed over to the police, to the judicial system of the authorities outside of the campus environment?

Laura:                     Yeah. What I always do, even in going into legal settings such as the American Bar Association Taskforce I've been on, or the American Law Institute, when we were debating different polices and procedures to put forward on a national level, even with attorneys, they say, "Okay, we need to back up. Let's not even think about sexual assault, let's just think of a physical assault."

Laura:                     You're a student, you're physically assaulted by another student. Let's say you're drunk at a bar, so you get punched. You, of course, can go to the police, but that's not your only option. You can also sue the person in civil court that just punched you. You can also just go to the campus level and say, "I want them removed because they're an unsafe student, and they're going to impede my access to education," or you could do all three. That's true of many scenarios.

Laura:                     Any type of crime, not just sexual crimes, allow you to go campus, criminal, or civil. You can pick, you can choose, you can do one after another, you can do them all at the same time. We have more than one legal remedy for harm in our society, and that's on purpose because there are many different ways that people can advance their rights and interests. They don't only have to rely on police, and of course, we know that the criminal standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, which is very different than the civil and campus standard of preponderance of the evidence. It is a different burden, it is a different ballgame, and that's because criminal is removing someone from society, imprisoning them often, fines in some places depending on the type of violence, potentially even death, so very serious consequences call for very serious due process and highly protective measures.

Laura:                     On the campus, you don't have a right to be in college. You don't. It's privilege. A college can choose you, or not choose you. You have no rights to get in. Once you are in, your rights are limited to stay there, especially if you have, in fact, violated any of their policies and procedures on students.

Laura:                     So, we're at a very different level with the lower standard of proof, and again, it's very important hat survivors have different options; campus, criminal, and civil, because they might need different things. One survivor may need all those damages from a civil case to get medical treatment in the future. Another one may want to keep the campus safe, and have that person removed for a criminal process from society. Another person may say, "You know what, I just need to continue my access to education," so they need to go elsewhere.

Laura:                     Lots of different options, lots of different remedies. There is no one size fits all, and there is not just one option for survivors.

Mike:                       I'm so glad you brought up the different standards because this is so important. I think a lot of people forget that the campus has the right of who they want to have on their campus, and so often people go, "You can't convict them." It's not whether they can convict them, it's whether they have the right to say, "I don't want that student as part of our community. We have that right, and whether we're a public or private institution, we actually have that right because we accepted them in. They had to apply to get in, they were not forced to us. We get to choose."

Laura:                     You can be removed for underage drinking on college campus, right.

Mike:                       Right. That's right.

Laura:                     [inaudible 00:10:57] over something that I would consider a less serious than committing sexual harassment or assault against someone.

Mike:                       Do you think-

PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:11:04]

Laura:                     ... serious in committing sexual harassment or assaulting someone.

Mike:                       Do you think the push back that's happening, that people try to argue this is going to too far of an extreme now, do you think this is out of a fear that adults look back and go, "Well I could have been kicked out for this," or, "I could have been in this?" So there's a subconscious level of I'm gonna push back because this goes against what I did back in the day. This would force me to look in the mirror and go, "I didn't always do everything right according to these standards." And are you saying that I'm this person, this perpetrator or whatever? Well I'm not, so this is crazy. This is going extreme. Is that what's happening?

Laura:                     I think there are three main drivers of this idea that there's a frenzy on campus and it's unfair to accuse. I think one driver is very much political, president Obama of course advanced title nine, listened to a bunch of student activism that was going on all across the country. There's tons of rallies, tons of protests, and tons of timeline complaints. We went from 30 to 300. So there was a big demand. The president, at that time, listened. And of course in certain circles he's not very popular and there has been a backlash within America with the new president. And so some of it is destroying that legacy, undoing everything that he has done. A different driver-

Mike:                       Can we pause? I wanna pause on that one, because I think it's so important. You remember when the first 30 were listed? When it came out in the news that here were the first, I don't even know if it was 30. It might have been like 19, but here ... I think it might actually be higher like 50 or 60, I just remember the first list of universities that were listed and people were like, "Oh my gosh, you are one of the 60," and those of us in the field were like, "Give this another six months to a year, because you're gonna see a lot of schools pop up on there." Because people don't realize what a problem this was. What they saw was the first list of people of offenses and the universities that were named, and what those ... Can you believe them? And I was sitting there going, "Yeah, but we're way too small list right now. This list should be way more comprehensive," because what it means is that somebody on that campus had support to come forward and file this in some way or form.

Laura:                     Yes.

Mike:                       I don't think schools should go, "Oh, no. We've been named." It should be, "What do we need to do to improve."

Laura:                     Yeah, possibly. It was definitely a way to shame schools into having to deal with it, and the positive is that many schools embraced when there were complaints and said, "We need to do better. We need to do more." Amherst is one of those schools. There's several others. SUNY, that school system. A lot of them were proactive as a result and said, "Well, it's coming out. We might as well take ownership and try to change that narrative by accountability for ourselves, and pushing the envelope for how to be the most progressive school with the best policies and procedures and prevention effort."

Laura:                     So definitely, I think, a good thing. We talked about the list. It's all colleges. There were K through 12 and over 80 school districts were on the list last I knew. So it's not just campuses. Unfortunately this is a K through 12 issue.

Laura:                     But I wanna finish talking about two of the drivers [inaudible 00:13:59].

Mike:                       Absolutely, yes.

Laura:                     One of them is absolutely what you mentioned. I wouldn't frame it as I'm worried that sounds like me, as much as I don't really believe what sexual assault is. A lot of people want sexual assault to be the most violent of, and most egregious of the actions in a sexual setting. So physically abusing and raping someone, and they don't wanna think of it as, "I ignored the no," or they were too drunk to consent. They don't want it to be anything lower than the most egregious standard. Because yeah, it may be conduct that they themselves have engaged in because we, unfortunately, live in a rape culture where there are narratives that sexual aggression is okay, that pushing someone into certain sexual activity, whether they're sober, whether they're aware or not, whether they're comfortable or not doesn't matter. And all that rape culture really does allow people to perpetrate a variety of offenses, whether they be criminal all the through or just misconduct at a campus level does really matter, I think, at the end of the day because someone's harmed.

Laura:                     So there is a little bit of that. I think it's rooted in the lack of understanding of what sexual violence really is, and when acknowledge that it's not just no means no, it's only yes means yes. That's really how we start protecting society, and that's why so many campuses have affirmative consent standards.

Laura:                     The other, which is somewhat related, is a lot of people think women lie. And that is the narrative I see most prominently pushed. I have no problem with people who are due process advocates. You want a fair process? So do I. I'm a lawyer. I care about it being done right. We don't, of course, want anyone falsely accused. I just think that's very rare, and unfortunately a lot of those advocates think it's very, very common because they don't believe that women tell the truth about their experiences.

Laura:                     And a lot of that is grounded in really old narratives that, quite frankly, I don't understand how they haven't gone out of fashion. A lot of them are regret sex. Well, we've had the sexual revolution. We're pretty comfortable with consent. We understand that most people are having sex before marriage. It's not really this shame factor. Slut shaming is not as much of a factor to deter people from being truthful, and there's a lot of other related narratives that contribute to rape culture in society that these people have bought and sold, and are selling now publicly saying, "These are lies. These are untruths," and as a result we can't take any victim seriously and they want us just going back to the day where no one believes the survivor when they speak forward.

Laura:                     I don't think that's gonna happen, but definitely there's a cultural war happening, and thankfully the MeToo movement is pushing for others to keep believing survivors and realize this is a relevant problem. The norm is survivors not getting justice. It's not false accusations.

Mike:                       Yeah, when I'm in front of audience, when people bring up false, one this that I'll do is I say, "Okay. Could everybody in the room raise their hand, not to identify themselves, but if you know a survivor of sexual assault. If you just know a survivor, raise your hands," and the far majority of the room raises their hands. "Keep your hands up if you know multiple." The far majority know multiple. Okay, great.

Mike:                       I mean, typically we're talking 80%, 75, 80%. Okay, "How many of you know someone actually accused and you guarantee know it was a false report?" Now I'm not gonna get into whether the ... because that might not even be right, what you think is a false report. And they actually went to prosecution, all the worst nightmare you think happens, happened, and they're in jail. The worst case. What you think happens in false report, maybe one out of hundreds of people in the room will raise their hand and say, "I think that's a case I know of," but you want us to talk about that one injustice more than the hundreds of injustices of everybody having their hands in the room.

Mike:                       And so we try to show them why. If we only have an hour to talk about reducing sexual violence, or two hours, or three hours, the students, we're gonna focus on survivors and we're not gonna focus that time on the one. That doesn't mean that false reports aren't horrible. As you said they are, but we have limited time for education. So in my work, what I focus on, that's what I'm focus on. I'll say to somebody, "If you're worried about the false reports maybe you could do that work," but I'm not gonna take the time of education for reducing sexual violence for that time.

Mike:                       And it's because it's so important people realize that pushback is so unfair. Well this one false report, therefore we can't talk about the 999 cases that take place. So I'm so glad you brought that up.

Mike:                       You also brought up rape culture, and this is one that people get very defensive about, angry about at times. An argument that I'll hear is, "I was never raised to think rape was okay. How dare you tell me I've been raised in a rape culture. When a rape case happens everyone's appalled. Everyone would want to kill the person if it was someone they love, therefore we do not live in a rape culture. How can you say we live in a rape culture?" What's your response to that?

Laura:                     I actually normally do a very brief activity, that maybe takes a most three minutes with people, I say, "Okay. Just give me all the words that you know for women who are sexually active." You hear slut, whore, skank, all these negative terms. "Give me all the words you know for men who are sexually active," player, positive, he's the man. Anything that's a thumbs up. They're doing well, so it's positive. Women are negative, men are positive. And I said, "Okay. Give me some slang for sex." Screw, nail, bang, hitting it, beating it, all terms of violence. And these are words that the audience provides me. I just give them the prompt, and I say, "You have just, with your own words and choices with these prompts, shown me rape culture." Men can be sexually active.

Laura:                     Sex is often described as violent, and women are the ones who pay the price for that and are demeaned as a result. That is rape culture. So I, personally, wasn't raised doing room-sized classes and things like that, but when I saw that activity when I was an undergrad student I was like, "Yeah, rape culture is real because I just gave those words without any other connotation," and I realized it is within our language. It's within our norms.

Mike:                       Yes, definitely. And you brought me to movement, and you've been very active from the start of the MeToo movement, and yet there's controversy around the MeToo movement. It wasn't at first. It was interesting, and I've talked about this in my work, that at first some of the cases were so blatantly extreme that the whole world was, "Yes." We were united. This was a movement that needed to speak out until a couple cases came forward of celebrities that didn't seem as blatantly obvious sexual violence. Seem like more the norm of people going out and having a good time, and then the regret defense is used in that and suddenly we saw backlash.

Mike:                       The most common one was the comedian ... Oh, my gosh. I'm having a brain freeze right now, Aziz Ansari, there we go. And that was one where he didn't defend, but other people defended the situation. So let's talk about one the co-oping of the MeToo movement early on, because that's an important discussion that often gets forgotten, and then the strength though of the current MeToo movement and then the backlash. So let's start with ... I don't think a lot of people realize there was a co-op that began this, and so you, Ana, speak to that?

Laura:                     Yeah, and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you in any way. A lot of people timed the MeToo movement to The New York Times breaking the story about Harvey Weinstein-

Mike:                       Exactly.

Laura:                     ... very differently because there was a whole campus movement. There was a whole military movement, and then there was a workplace movement. So I see a continuation. MeToo was the hashtag for the worker division, but this has been a movement that's been going on for a while if you'd been paying attention. And in all of these movements have had their day in the sun and everyone's like, "Yes. We agree. It's wrong on campus. It's wrong in the military. It's wrong in the workplace," and all of them have seen the inevitable backlash. I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do live in DC. There are conservative ...

PART 2 OF 3 ENDS [00:22:04]

Laura:                     I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I do live in D.C. There are conservative think tanks. This is a topic that national attention is being given to, to change the narrative, to push certain policies throughout our country. I do think tactically there has been attacks by conservative groups, saying, "This is not a good narrative for a lot of our political positions and views. We really need to co-opt it, and push it, and so-

Mike:                       Can we pause there, 'cause I can hear some people thinking, "Hey, I'm outside of the D.C. world. I don't understand what you're referring to there. What do you mean think tanks are conspiring?

Laura:                     Yeah, just different think tanks. People are literally paid to sit around and create campaigns and efforts to change public opinion and therefore ultimately be able to push certain policies. Heritage Group is one of them. There are several others. If you're not familiar, you can just Google it and look up conservative and/or liberal think tanks. They exist out there.

Mike:                       What we're saying here, just so I understand correctly, is a think tank is thinking, "If I make this an issue, if we make the need to movement a bad movement, that will gain our followers into political. They're more likely to come out and vote. They're more likely to be active ... that group's followers, so let's use this issue. Let's fight against it, 'cause it will draw people into our way of voting." Is that the overall idea there?

Laura:                     Yeah, that's definitely of the idea and you can kind of see it with the Safe Campus Acts that was put forward not all that long ago into Congress. That act was backed by Greek organizations, fraternities and sororities. It literally ... more so fraternities than sororities, to be honest ... so it was a PAC. It was a group, a group that was influencing Congress and politicians to advance their own interest, which was not to have schools take any action against them, to allow them to be able to stay on campus, keep having parties no matter what crimes were reported there or being investigated. There are groups that do have incentives. Fraternities often do have a lot of connections to political offices and place a lot of their members there, so there is, unfortunately a relationship.

Laura:                     It's very sad to say, but right now Stephen Miller, who's in the White House advising President Drumpf, has been outspoken in his backlash against Title IX, against efforts on campus sexual assaults. A lot of that narrative is pro-men and women are liars and that kind of narrative which appeals, unfortunately, to some conservative groups.

Mike:                       Understand. So MeToo today ... Where do you feel it's at? Where do you see it going?

Laura:                     Yeah, I think MeToo has been very powerful in having survivors kind of come out in the numbers. We always knew, right? People have debated and been skeptical of statistics. You can't be skeptical when almost everyone on your Facebook page is saying, "Me, too. Here's my experience." I always knew this was a big issue. I always knew the statistics. Even I was shocked one day going on Facebook when the MeToo hashtag was really popular how many friends I still hadn't known had had these experiences, and from any level, from being harassed on the street all the way through being assaulted or having childhood experiences with this issue. It's been great in showing this is a real problem. It affects way more people than you think it does.

Laura:                     Injustice is the norm, often because powerful individuals go out of their way to create scenarios where they can perpetrate with impunity, such as looking at the Weinstein cases. He was so powerful in Hollywood. He held the keys to the kingdom if you wanted to be famous. A lot of people knew. It was an open secret. Same with Bill Cosby ... That had been going on with decades.

Laura:                     We see a lot of power and privilege being associated. MeToo is on tenuous footing because it has to move into action, in my opinion. It's fine to have awareness. That's step one. A lot of people have been using MeToo to out people publicly. I think that's been important for some of these cases, but really we do have legal systems for a reason. It's not just about publicly shaming people, because sometimes you can be sued for defamation. You really have to be thoughtful and careful and know what the legal risks are.

Laura:                     Ideally, it's to change our systems, to make them more effective. We shouldn't have open secrets and perpetrators allowed to continue with impunity and that requires tactical, political, legal change at every level ... campus, in our courthouses, criminal and civil alike.

Mike:                       You created SurvJustice to help have a source, a place people could go and get that support. We were talking earlier the campus example of reaching out. How does somebody do that? What's the best way to contact SurvJustice? If you're listening right now and you're a survivor and you're thinking, "Hey, I wanna talk with someone. I wanna know my options," what's the best way to do that?

Laura:                     Absolutely. SurvJustice is spelled a little uniquely. It is S as in Sam, U as in umbrella, R as in Reagan, V as in vase, Justice, and that's one word ... SurvJustice. You can go to the websites ... just SurvJustice.org, or obviously also on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. There's many ways to reach out. Again, SurvJustice is the only national non-profit representing victims in campus hearings across the country, having transitioned on and now with the Fierberg Law Group, I am exclusively working on civil cases. When it has gone to the next level, when damages and recovery are really the only options for survivors, that action is being taken on by myself and my team.

Laura:                     There are, of course, other lawyers all across the country that specialize in Title IX, in sexual harassment, sexual discrimination and sexual assault cases. There are many resources out there. I am proud to have founded SurvJustice. I think it's a good first stop if you're not really sure where to go and what kind of sources you need. They'll route you there if they can't assist you.

Mike:                       We'll have that website on the show notes absolutely. We'll also have your website, which is lauraldunnesq.com, so people can find you, reach out to you, which is so important. You also are a proponent of teaching sexual respect. How do you do that through your work?

Laura:                     It's built right into the vision of SurvJustice. A lot of people think of mission where you're trying to accomplish. Envision is where are you trying to go? If the world is perfect, what does it look like?

Laura:                     Sexual respect is the norm in my vision, because really if we just make sexual respect a norm in interactions, I think a lot of these issues melt away. There may always be sexual violence, but I don't believe acquaintance rape has to be such a norm if we treat one another with sexual respect. It's about making sure your partner's comfortable. It's making sure that you are not being aggressive in pursuing sex at any means to any ends and you're really rejecting that in our culture and calling other people out to say, "It's really important that you treat everyone dignity and respect." It's not about romance. You can just be having fun, but at the end of the day, consent is important and not just in the way you interact with others, but the way, of course, people interact with you. You wanna feel respected and cared for in those interactions and safe.

Laura:                     I often do trainings. I don't just talk about response, which is, of course, my specialty as a lawyer, but how response has to be full circle with prevention. We have to give these right messages of, "This is how we should behave. This is what we should be doing," and we've got to back that up with serious responses. When someone breaks that norm that we're creating, there has to be a consequence. We can't allow there to be impunity. We have to make sure sexual respect is accorded by all our institutions.

Mike:                       That's awesome. Laura, what was a book that you think can benefit people? If they're listening, going, "Hey, I would love to dive into a book on this," what would be a book you recommend?

Laura:                     Oh, there's so many. I have a really big library on this topic. I'll just say what I'm reading right now, which is "I Have the Right To," which is by Chessy Prout. I will have full disclosure here. She is a former client of mine. She had a very high-profile high school prep case in what which she as a freshman was targeted by an 18-year-old senior boy for a senior salute, which meant taking her to an isolated place on campus and trying to get as much from her sexually as possible, and he ended up raping her.

Laura:                     There was a criminal trial with a partial conviction. He wasn't convicted on every offense, but on some of them. She really was attacked and defamed in the media as a minor, as a minor survivor, and so SurvJustice came in. We protected her privacy. We spoke to the media to keep her privacy moving forward.

Laura:                     As a result of having that conviction at the end, she went forward, sued the school, and this story really talks about her experience through this struggle and against such a powerful institution, but of course also gives messages of, "How can this not be the case? What could we have done and what can we create moving forward where sexual respect is the norm, where we actually have institutions that know how to respond and don't support perpetrators?" Really, in her case, her school is fundraising for the person accused to support his defense, so really, again, shedding light on what survivors go through and also calling out how we can change moving forward. I hope people check out that book, "I Have the Right To." It's also a hash tag and on Twitter and social media.

Mike:                       She's been all over national media. She is an example like millions of survivors out there with their strength and their courage in sharing thing with the world. You just shared so much brilliance with us and expertise. Thank you so much, Laura, for joining us.

Laura:                     Absolutely. Thank you for having me on and thanks for all the work you do.

Mike:                       Oh, our pleasure.

Mike:                       Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Respect podcast, which was sponsored by the Date Safe Project at datesafeproject.org. Remember, you can always find me at Mikespeaks.com.

PART 3 OF 3 ENDS [00:31:30]

 

Chris Clarke-Epstein, CSP is a change expert who has spent over 30 years challenging diverse groups including senior leadership teams, middle management supervisors, and health care professionals to apply new knowledge. Her presentations blend an innovative delivery of sound learning theory, activities that lead to practical solutions, and infectious enthusiasm that send participants home ready to apply what they’ve learned.

 

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**IMPORTANT: This podcast episode was transcribed by a 3rd party service and so errors can occur throughout the following pages:

Mike Domitrz:                      Welcome to the respect podcast, I'm your host Mike Domitrz from mikespeaks.com, where we help organizations of all sizes, educational institutions and the US military create a culture of respect, which is exactly what we discuss on this show. So Let's get started.

Mike Domitrz:                      This weeks guest is Rick Clemons, a close friend of mine, I wanna let you know about Rick right away, he is the author of Frankly my dear I'm gay. Host of Life uncloseted podcast, certified life coach, Tedx speaker, world record holder and a guy who's helped thousands of people in over 50 countries across the globe come out of the closets of their lives, to escape their BS, explore their fears and elevate their f-ing self expression.

Mike Domitrz:                      Now if a few of you are listening going whoa Mike, I've seen you speak on stage around the world, you don't drop the F bomb, you don't swear, but this is Rick's bio and I honor the voice of the people we have on the show, so that's why you're gonna hear me speak that, and your gonna her people, such as Rick speak in their language, I'm not gonna censor people. Even my own work, some people will be like, hey but you call people out when they use inappropriate language, the key is inappropriate, where the context of the language is, it's not always just about the words. So that's important here, but the context of what Rick is saying is so important. So Rick lets get right into it. Thank you so much for joining me.

Rick Clemons:                      Thanks for having me Mike, I love that you started with that, because this is of respect is respecting people's voice and truly letting people step into who they are, and I don't always drop F bombs on stage, there are moments I do, and if I do, it's because there's a point being made by either the story I'm telling or the thing I want someone to learn. And I've learned from myself, having been a guy who disrespected himself over and over again by not being who I was that sometimes you just gotta let yourself be who you are and by doing that, you teach other people how to do the same. So thank you for having this awesome platform man, and I am just so honored to be here on the show with you.

Mike Domitrz:                      Well, I am thrilled to have you here, lets get right into that, because your life history talks a lot about one's voice, and gaining the voice back and that journey.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      Let's talk about how respect plays a role there, because I think a lot of people don't think about respect on the self journey of coming out, from whatever that coming out means.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      So to give all of our listeners and viewers a little background, when people hear, Life uncloseted frankly my dear I'm gay, they're probably thinking there's gotta be a story there, there some ties there. So Rick can you share your personal story?

Rick Clemons:                      There's no story, its just that Mike picked up, and said hey lets go do this right. Of course there's a story, and you know, I kind of already alluded to it but there was so, much of my life that I disrespected myself because I was trying to live by other peoples standards, and I'm so blessed that I did because I wouldn't be here today if I hadn't disrespected myself.

Rick Clemons:                      I came out to my parents when I was 19 years old and they pretty much said no, you can't be that. There's was a little bit of faith based stuff going on there, and I'm glad they did because that was right at the beginning of the AIDS epidemic and I know myself, now that I can ... you know, the wise on, as you lose more hair you become wiser and wiser and wiser, and I realized that had I come out back in 1982 when I told my parents, fully come out, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation, I just know it, I know it in my heart, I know it in my soul, because I was naïve, I was immature, I hadn't had any kinds of sexual experiences so to speak at that point in time and honestly believe that I would've become a little rebel and probably have contracted the virus and wouldn't be having this conversation.

Rick Clemons:                      So then we roll almost double that amount of time forward, I was 36-

Mike Domitrz:                      I'd it's okay to pause there Rick? Because, I think there's a lot of powerful stuff there. One, when you came out and your parents said no, you went back in.

Rick Clemons:                      Yes I did.

Mike Domitrz:                      Okay. Which a lot of people don't realize happens, I think everybody thinks, oh once somebody is out, their out.

Rick Clemons:                      No. No.

Mike Domitrz:                      But you're well aware that's not the case.

Rick Clemons:                      No, and that's why I do the work I do today, is because so many of my clients are older and I'm gonna kind of, you know, [crosstalk 00:04:28].

Mike Domitrz:                      Thanks for pointing at me by the way Rick, for anybody who can't see, Rick went older with his hands right at me.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah. Exactly its [inaudible 00:04:30].

Mike Domitrz:                      Somebody might be asking am I a client, no Rick and I are friends.

Rick Clemons:                      No.

Mike Domitrz:                      Not that being a client of Rick's would be anything but wonderful but yes, so continue Rick.

Rick Clemons:                      So, its so interesting, so I say older in general, but what's so fascinating is my work started with people like myself 35 plus, all the way up, I mean my oldest client was 72 when he came out of the closet and what I found is many people go back in the closet. Now heres the interesting thing Mike, is in the last couple years, I have still had young people come to me and go, you know, I'm about to get married I think I shouldn't, you know, their stories unfold. And in two cases, they actually went back in the closet, and I was fully supportive in their decision, because my role as a coach is not to say go do this. My role is to help you become comfortable and respectful in your own right of who you are, and so its been really and interesting [inaudible 00:05:27].

Rick Clemons:                      When my book came out, what I was shocked the most by, is the younger people who came to me, I'm talking in their 20s, okay, so that's what I mean when I'm young, I'm like almost 55 myself here. Young people who came to me and said, "I'm so glad you wrote this book, because I'm way behind the [inaudible 00:05:49].", 22 and your behind the [inaudible 00:05:49], but you have to put it in perspective of where we are today. Kids are coming out at eight, nine, 10 and its amazing to hear those stories.

Rick Clemons:                      That respecting of yourself and realizing, I might have to respect myself and go back in the closet, is so that you can, as I love to say percolate and let the yeast rise in your life and finally go okay either, this is where I supposed to be, which is a path, or wow, I'm gonna do this and it's gonna happen much later in life.

Mike Domitrz:                      Very powerful. So, Rick right there you talked about the fact that people choose to go back in and you support this because this is their journey, you said hey, I'm glad I went back in when I did, because I think I would've been, by what you were saying, I don't wanna change your words, but exploratory in that rebellion stage and therefore not as safe in decision making. Is that considered controversial?

Rick Clemons:                      Of course, it is, because people then can come back at you and say, well then you knew what you were doing, you were consciously doing this even though you know. And I would argue that yes, in some cases that is true, in my case that was 50 percent true, but I was still trying to figure out, am I really gay? Or is this just something part of my sexual awakening? Am I trying to figure it out?

Rick Clemons:                      Other people they will actually go back in and they push that way, way, way, way down, and there is no acting and there is no going forward and exploring it, its like nope, this is where I'm supposed to be, and then something happens, and that comes rushing back forward. And that's only two examples, there's lots of different ways that people will go do this.

Rick Clemons:                      And its not just in sexuality, I have kids that I talk to in university that literally have shown up- you'll love this Mike, because I know you do this too, I was in a classroom one day, just in the moment, I had this brilliant question of, okay I'd like everybody to close your eyes, and nobody peek and I'm gonna ask you a question, how many of you in this classroom are here at college pursuing a major or a path that is because someone else told you what you were supposed to do.

Rick Clemons:                      50 percent of the room raised their hands, because they were in college pursuing a major or a direction because mom and dad, someone else said this is what you're meant to do. That was so impactful and so powerful, because it drove home the same story that I had just told them bout myself going back in the closet.

Mike Domitrz:                      Yeah, absolutely. Are there people that would say, Rick since you're out, how can you be telling others to go back in.

Rick Clemons:                      Because its their life.

Mike Domitrz:                      I'm not saying that, that's what I'm preaching, but I could see that push back.

Rick Clemons:                      No, no, no, no, I know. And it happens all the time. That's where I say, my job as a coach is not to say this is what you should do, my job as a coach is to help people find a path to their truest essence themselves, and if that's what's their truest essence, then they need to go do that.

Rick Clemons:                      I have a client who I just finished working with who did exactly that, he went on an exploratory path for about three months, his wife totally knowing what he was doing and he came back and said, I believe my path is not this path, and I said then you need to follow your values, your belief, your heart and you need to live life your way.

Rick Clemons:                      Which is always what I say, I want my clients to live life their way, I want the audiences that I have the privilege to speak in front of, that is my message, you know this Mike, its about make the bold move, life your life uncloseted, live life your way. And if that's what we gave each other a human beings man, I don't know, I think the planet would be so much different.

Mike Domitrz:                      Absolutely, to really honor each person's choices is the key to what we're discussing. For anyone listening, some of the things we're discussing, the aspects of it are not choice, they're born, how do I live with innately who I am?

Rick Clemons:                      How do you give your yourself permission? There's the choice, how do you give yourself permission to accept this is innately who I am, this is how I'm supposed to show up in the world. That's the choice, when we know who we are. I have so many entrepreneurs that I've worked with that they knew, they knew for so many years they were not supposed to be sitting in a corporate cubicle, they weren't supposed to be following those kind of rules, that they were supposed to be doing their thing, they knew it innately, as much as I know innately I am a gay man. But they have to give themselves permission to say, I'm going to go stand in my truth.

Mike Domitrz:                      All right, so lets go to- because we jumped in early on your story, you didn't get to finish that, and so to honor and respect his voice lets go ahead. You were jumping the bean in your 30s, so that was like 19, now your in your 30s.

Rick Clemons:                      30s, I'd been married for 13 years and-

Mike Domitrz:                      And married, as in a heterosexual relationship?

Rick Clemons:                      ... in a heterosexual relationship, with a wife, I had two daughters, very young daughter. Four and a half, and nine months old, and there was a moment, there was a moment that I realized this can no longer be the way I live, I could no longer live a dual life, I could no longer pretend that this was the way life was supposed to be. And I made the conscious decision to say, i gotta do this. And that's when I came out of the closet, and it was a very specific reason that I came out of the closet.

Rick Clemons:                      Some people say, oh you met a guy. Yes I did, but this guy made everything completely different for me because I was used to hooking up, that was my outlet to okay, I know this is what I am, but I'll go hook up and then I'll pretend like nothing happened. Not proud of that, I will never say, oh yeah that's the way to do this, it is a way, but its not the way.

Rick Clemons:                      And when I met this guy-

Mike Domitrz:                      So for listeners, you're referring to during the years of being in a heterosexual relationship, you would still explore the sexuality side of who you innately are during the marriage.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      Okay. Gotcha.

Rick Clemons:                      So, there was a weird twist of respect there, that I was respecting some of my truth but I was disrespecting the honest truth. I would take it only to the sexual realm, I couldn't at that point in time take it to the innate emotional, you know, just connected, being with someone realm, because I was like, well no, gay people can't do that, we just have quote sex because of so many things that had been raised and societal views on that.

Rick Clemons:                      And then I met this guy, and started down the same path and I ended up in his hotel room, but that night was the night that there was no sex, I literally fel in love, and I fell apart because there was a connection, it was all about the connecting. And I saw something in that moment that I hadn't seen, and in that moment even though I knew I was about to embark on a journey, and I knew it, I knew I was going to embark on a journey that, this is where I had to step into my self respect, this is where I had to respect the process, this is where I had to respect the journey. And eventually I figured out this is where I also have to respect others. At that moment I realized I had to respect my wife, because this could no longer be the way I did life.

Mike Domitrz:                      And so you now go to your wife.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah, yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      Talk about one's voice.

Rick Clemons:                      Not an easy thing to do, except, and now we've talked about my book being frankly my dear I'm gay, that's pretty much how it went down. I didn't use those exact words but it was, I walked in the door from that trip I'd been in London, landed at LAX airport, because I'm from southern California at the time, and I had about a two hour drive home. I called her from the airport and said, "I'm home.", and she goes, "Great I can't wait to see you.", and I said, "Yeah, I can't wait to see you too.", and then I dropped a bomb and said, "We got some stuff we gotta talk about.", and I hung up the phone and I felt like a real shit to be honest.

Rick Clemons:                      The whole way home, I was like, this could be so much easier. And I remember four times on that trip, four times Mike, on that trip, four times looking over my shoulder, right in front of semis, and going I could just turn the wheel, just turn the wheel and nobody would ever know, nobody would ever have to know this dirty little secret that I held.

Rick Clemons:                      And when I think about the respect piece that you talk about, that's when I really started respecting myself, respecting my wife, and respecting my children, because I needed to man up. I needed to be who I was meant to be, I needed to man up and be the father I was meant to be, and I actually needed to be the husband I was meant to be and say, I created this nasty space and I need to clean it up. I walked in and I literally said the to her, "I love you and I care about you but I'm gay. And this isn't gonna work.". And of course, not pretty stuff happened, I was literally out of the house the night, justifiably so, I mean justifiably so for her, she was upset.

Rick Clemons:                      Through a lot of work and every thing we made it, we made it through we've continued to raise our children and- kind of back to what I said just a minute ago, I had to respect myself, I learned to respect the process, because it is a process coming out, no matter what that coming out is, there's a process.

Rick Clemons:                      Even becoming speakers like you and I have, there is a process to respect in the process of being a speaker and respecting the journey of being a speaker and respecting others as you go through that journey. Those are four huge pillars that I think a lot of people will miss as they come out of the closet, whatever it is.

Rick Clemons:                      I've seen people come out to be an entrepreneur, and they respect themselves but they don't respect the process, they don't respect the journey and then they sure don't respect others, they want everybody else to tell them exactly why how to do it, what they need, like thanks, good, got it, and there's not really a genuine thank. There's not a thing, and then they think okay, now, here I am I'm supposed to do this, but they haven't respected the process and they haven't respected that there's a journey.

Rick Clemons:                      This is what I love about doing what I do, because I can take this and really overlay it into, you wanna do this? Great. What is it you need to do first? Well you gotta respect yourself. Now some people will miss that piece all together. They'll do this because they think okay, this is what I need to do and people are like, yeah this is what you need to do, but guess what, as soon as they keep listening to what somebody else says they need to do-

Rick Clemons:                      I have a really good friend who so badly wants to run his own business, and I'm sure you're gonna like this Mike. He keeps going to people, going to people, going to people, and then he'll adopt what that person says and then he'll adopt what the next person says, and then he'll adopt what the next person says and at the end of the day, he doesn't respect himself, because he won't allow himself to say here's what I wanna do to run my own business-

Mike Domitrz:                      Right, he won't listen to the voice inside himself. So Rick, how do you respond to the person that says, what a second, why am I listening to this expert Rick Clemons, who disrespected his relationship for all these years by living a lie and I'm not saying that, you and I both know that, that statement living a lie is overused, it can be harmful.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      But why am I listening to this person who cheated, who wasn't himself, why is this the person I'm gonna listen to when it comes to respect.

Rick Clemons:                      Because I think I bring forward the insights of, wow, when you can see that, then you're able to help other people see it. If you haven't lived it, if you haven't done it, you can't teach other people and you can't keep learning yourself. That's the place where I think it starts, you keep learning yourself, and I don't do this because is wanna teach people, I don't do this because I think I'm a guru or an expert.

Rick Clemons:                      I do this because I want to help people avoid the pain, no of us want to live in pain. And this was not easy, this was not pain free, this was not stress free. In fact, I was so stressed out that first year coming out of the closet that I literally lost 120 pounds and when people saw me-

Rick Clemons:                      here's where it was really interesting, so Let's roll back to when I was 19 and didn't know anything about HIV and stuff, so now we're in 1996, things are still being figured out right. I lost so much weight that people thought, oh my god he came out of the closet and he's positive, because I looked skin and bones. Those of you who can see me now, you can see I'm a fluffy guy, I'm not skin and bones but it was that thing where I had to learn this.

Rick Clemons:                      Now I do this because I don't want anybody to not live their truth, that's why I go speak at colleges and universities, because I want kids to respect themselves enough, in this moment, in this time, as they start college and university to go, this is my life and this is how I want to live. Because you don't want wait to about 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, and go, oh, I could've don't his differently.

Mike Domitrz:                      And I love this about you, you're open and your vulnerable along the journey I mean, you're the definition of someone speaking their voice, respecting their voice, because you don't hold anything back when you're talking with people and I love that about you.

Mike Domitrz:                      What are strategies you would give people, maybe questions, thought, skill they can use to help them find that respect for themselves? Because there's and interesting dichotomy in this conversation, right. Because you said at 19, I'm sort of glad my parents pushed me back in, because of the danger I could've been in, but at the same time that means, were talking almost 15 to 20 years of some form of not being able to live with that respect of yourself.

Rick Clemons:                      Right. Right. Well, the first thing that I like to ask clients is, do you want to end up here 20 years from now and still feel the same way you do? If you don't do this now, what's going to be different? And what's going to be the same? Because its all about getting to that emotional space Mike, it's about figuring out- anybody who's in pain, they don't wanna feel it. So if they make this change now, what's will be different?

Mike Domitrz:                      Let's pause there, that's so powerful Rick, because this applies to so many things in peoples lives. So can we go back and just say that question one more time? So if it was 20 years from now ...

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah. What would be different? And what won't be different?

Mike Domitrz:                      Right, if you stay on this track, the key wording you used right was if you stay on this track, is this where you're gonna wanna still be? Is that- if I remember right.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah. Yeah. It's really, is this where you wanna be. And if you don't stay on this track what might be different? And its not about having people predict their future, its about inviting them to go explore that future, it about giving themselves permission to even ask the question, so many people don't give themselves permission to ask the questions.

Rick Clemons:                      One of the best ways to do this Mike, I think this will help your audience so well, if you're struggling with this thing, whatever it is, doesn't matter what it is, but if you're struggling with this thing and tomorrow morning you woke up and you had made the decision that, that thing, it was time to give yourself permission to fix it.

Rick Clemons:                      How much different might you feel, just tomorrow morning if you went to bed knowing I'm going to fix this, and you woke up tomorrow morning and you knew you were fixing it. I can guarantee you, that one nights sleep will be completely different than all the nights sleep you've been having until this decision was made.

Mike Domitrz:                      And its very much where the 10-10-10 principal comes in, and that's this idea that in 10 hours from now, 10 days from now, 10 months from now, sometimes you'll take it to 10 years from now, how will I feel if I make this decision? Well in 10 hours I might be scared out of my mind, in 10 days I might be dealing with some really difficult consequences of this, in 10 months, I could start to be feeling freedom and in 10 years, I'm gonna look back and go why didn't I do this sooner. Is that very much in line with that?

Rick Clemons:                      Yes. Because heres on of the exercises I have my clients do, and it is the 10 levels, at a level one, if you don't so this or you do, do this what are you gonna feel? And then at a level two, and at three, and at four, and at five, by the time you get to a level 10, if you do this what will you be experiencing?

Rick Clemons:                      The whole point is I'm gonna be scared to death at level one but by the time I'm living at a level 10 and I'm doing the thing I wanna be doing, wow I may be changing careers because I camera out of the closet, because now I know I don't have to settle for anything. I may be going on that trip around the world, I may be deciding to have a child with someone new, because my other spouse is like, I'm never doing this, and I was able to do the coming out journey. But I love the exercise because I have clients take it, at each level what will you be doing that will then make things different.

Mike Domitrz:                      Is the number one fear the judgment of either family or colleagues that have that sort of leadership role in our life, those that we look to like parents. Is that often the number one fear with somebody coming out with whatever they're coming out with?

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah. It's always the number one fear, what are other people gonna think?

Mike Domitrz:                      The the question I would imagine becomes, if I'm so afraid they won't accept me, and I don't know, but from a coaching perspective as a response to that, then why do you want that person dictating your life, someone who doesn't wanna support you and give you true love and let you be who you are. Why do you want them to dictate your life? Is that a question?

Rick Clemons:                      That's definitely a question. Like if that person were no longer playing that role in your life, what would be different? If they weren't telling you, you couldn't be this? If they weren't disrespecting you and your dreams, what would be different?

Rick Clemons:                      And the dream one is a huge one, its like, okay, so if you're living by that persons dream and you quit living their dream through your life, then what's gonna happen for you? If you just basically just ejected them out of the picture, what would you be able to do? If you didn't carry the burden of them on your shoulders all the time, how much taller and prouder and powerful would you stand in your life?

Rick Clemons:                      This isn't about disrespecting other, I don't want people to get- it's about finding the space and respect to put someone in where it enables you to live you're life the way you're meant to live it.

Mike Domitrz:                      And we forget that you're gonna gain new people in your life, because when you're in that realm arena of respect, you draw people in, you draw like energy, like values, and you're gonna be in a supportive environment, not instantly, right away, but over time you're gonna have connections that are gonna be powerful and wonderful if you're open to that if you're truly respecting yourself and being open to the world.

Rick Clemons:                      Exactly. Well, Mike as you were saying that, the first thing that went through my mind is that's exactly why you and I are even having this conversation, that is why you and I are friends, because yes, Jess introduced us but Jess would not have introduced us if she didn't feel like, hey, these two guys, they belong in the same circle.

Rick Clemons:                      As we've gotten to know each other it's because we do get each other, we get each other, we're totally different. Yes, you're a straight guy kids, I'm a gay guy with kids, we have fun, we both have this quick wit but its because we know we can operate in this space and I drew you, you drew me because of how we show up in the world.

Mike Domitrz:                      Love it. I think that's awesome for listeners to think of, who could I draw into my life if I could truly be me, if I could respect every element of me, that's so powerful.

Mike Domitrz:                      Rick, obviously your book is Frankly my dear, I'm gay. What is another book that has impacted you along the journey?

Rick Clemons:                      Well, it would be the one that I sent you Mike, and you know which one I'm talking about because this is where I am draw out the F bomb, it is the subtle art of not giving a fuck. And when I read that book, I was like oh my gosh, this is- if I could've have written any book, that would have been the book. But I'm so glad that Mark Manson did, and read it. There's things in it that I don't 100 percent agree with, but for the most part its spot on, spont on about how to truly live your life and live it in the right way with respect for yourself, with respect for others and truly step up to that space you're meant to live in.

Mike Domitrz:                      The book is so powerful, and like you, there are some examples he chose that I wasn't a fan of, I thought did some harm to our work. But that doesn't mean there's not some incredible lessons in that book, and powerful lessons in that book.

Rick Clemons:                      Yeah.

Mike Domitrz:                      I wanna thank you so much for joining us Rick.

Rick Clemons:                      Oh thank you man, it's always a pleasure to get to do anything with you and to be a part of your journey and supporting the work you do.

Mike Domitrz:                      Well thanks. For everyone listening you can find Rick at rickclemons.com, we're gonna have all of the links to his social media, his book everything in the show notes of the respect podcast.

Mike Domitrz:                      Thank you for joining us for this episode of the respect podcast. Which was sponsored by the date safe project at datesafeproject.org. And remember you can always find me at mikespeaks.com