gerard deane

‘Unless we start listening, we’re not going to move forward’

“Unless we start listening, we're not really going to move forward,” says Julieann Campbell, editor of the Unheard Voices collection of women's stories from the Troubles. She was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Julieann reflects in the podcast on the impact on her of the interviews with women about their experiences in the Troubles. “I think it has affected me on several levels, emotionally and in my work,” she says. “It is a fact that it has made me more sensitive. It has made me more empathetic towards people I meet. And it has made me less judgmental.

“And I think it has opened my eyes to the hurt that is still here that I would never have seen if I hadn't engaged in this kind of work. So it was a real eye opener for me personally.

“I think some of the strongest work that I've done in recent years was with the security forces. And being from my community I would have been afraid to speak to those people. But they were some of the most powerful interviews I've ever done. 

“And it was really, really interesting to hear that point of view, because it was something that I had never, ever been privy to before. And it gives you a different perspective, because it shows that the hurt and the fear was universal.”

Julieann adds: “Across the board, there was a feeling of a shared anguish and a shared pain. And that shared feeling that you were afraid to go to bed at night because you didn't know what was going to happen. And that was [true for] victims and perpetrators. And that was [true for the] security forces. Everyone had that same sense of dread and uneasiness. And I think that comes across very powerfully in the work that I've done.”

Unheard Voices is unusual in terms of studies into the Troubles, because it not only contains first person stories, but also they were from women. “They were the backbone of society, we always say,” explains Julieann. “But nobody ever asks women for their voice. That's why this Unheard Voices project was a challenge. 

“When you sat down with these women, most of them said, oh, I haven't anything to tell. And then they would start speaking and you could hear a pin drop. And it became very obvious that no one had ever asked before. And that's something that we need to address. If there's all these untold stories out there, who's asking and who's listening? That would go a long way to healing and moving on. It’s just that basic human want to be heard and acknowledged.”

Julieann adds that there is “a recurrent trait that people think no one wants to know what happened to them”.  Capturing stories at this time is essential, adds Julieann, because many of the people involved in events are towards the end of their lives. 

“My daddy was present in Bloody Sunday and is not with us anymore,” says Julieann. “And I wish I had asked him, because he never spoke of it and never gave evidence at the inquiry. Whatever he saw was so horrific.”  And for witnesses of various events, the impact “has been life changing”, but so too has been the opportunity for them, years later, to tell their stories.  “That was a few hours of our life, but it changed someone else's life,” says Julieann.  “I would say it is a catharsis.”

She adds: “We can't just brush it under the carpet.  It comes up time and time again. There's so many historic cases that have never even had an inquest, let alone a police investigation. And these are coming on 45, 50 years ago. And if it's not addressed right, then we are actually leaving the next generation with a burden. And that's not fair on them... it's an open wound passed on.”

While Julieann says that listening to the stories has been positive for her, it has also been painful.  “I would've had a lot of crying in the middle of the night. And one time there was a story about a woman whose husband was shot dead through her living room window when they were just sitting, watching TV - and speaking to that woman about that and then writing that out and transcribing it. I had to stop and drink wine and watch cartoons in the middle of the night, I remember. 

“And that was one that particularly affected me, that I had to do anything to get those images out of my mind. So it became quite difficult, intruding on someone else's grief, almost. But in a way, that's a privilege as well. And you have to do their story justice.

“There’s no point shying away from it. That could be very easy when someone is telling you something that is so significant, and so detailed, to move on to the next thing, but, no, let them speak and let them go into every single detail, because even if it is uncomfortable for us to hear, my God they need to say it.”

Julieann Campbell was interviewed for a series of three special podcasts featuring writers of historic events in the Troubles, asking them how these stories affected them and what their experiences might mean for how we deal with the Troubles legacy.

The Forward Together podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

 
Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

‘Transformative decisions on Northern Ireland have not been taken’, laments Peter Osborne

Northern Ireland is more than 20 years into a 50 year peace process, which is being held back because government here has failed to take the radical transformative steps that are required.  This is the view of Peter Osborne, the former chair of the Community Relations Council, in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Peter explains: “We are in a process that will last at least 50 years. Some people thought when the [Good Friday] agreement was signed, we had peace. We don't. Some people thought it would take 10 or 20 years. It won't. It will take generations and it will be at least 50 years. So 20 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, we are less than halfway through this process.... There are no quick fixes. But we also need to understand that it can go backwards as well as forwards. There is no inevitable forward flow to the peace in Northern Ireland and we are in a very serious situation.”

He continues: “Politics is really important, but it's about more than politics. I think in 20 years since the agreement, we haven't taken the transformational decisions that are necessary. We still have a society that is as segregated as it ever was.”

Peter argues that we must do more to integrate our society and rebuts suggestions that integrating education and housing represents ‘social engineering’.  “Our system has the greatest degree of social engineering that there's ever been.”

As well as being socially harmful, segregation is also extremely wasteful of resources, suggests Peter.  “So we need to take a really serious look at how we can have one teacher training college for everybody in Northern Ireland. I think we need to take a really serious look at how structurally education is managed through area planning. And we also need to come up with initiatives that encourage local areas where there are two, three or four schools when there actually should be one or two to reduce the number of schools in that area. That will save millions of pounds.... But it needs some really courageous big political policy decisions. And we haven't taken those decisions yet.”

He instances: “In two villages a mile apart, along a part of the coast in Northern Ireland, those two villages have fewer than 250 children of primary school age. Yet those two villages a mile apart are served by four separate schools. That wouldn't happen anywhere else in these islands.”

Peter is dismissive of the limited objective to create more shared housing.  “Our shared housing policy has an ambition which equates to less than 1% of total housing,” he points out.  And the policy promoting shared housing has to be backed by the enforcement of law intended to prevent intimidation. “I think the law and the legal guidance is very clear. You cannot erect things on lampposts.... It's not just a policing issue. It's for other agencies, too.

“Can you take those flags down everywhere? I think that would be a huge challenge, because of the number of flags that are up. I understand that. But when you come to a shared housing area, I think you need to implement the law when the law says you cannot put flags up. It is even stronger when it comes to flags that are related to a prescribed illegal organization when it is done, especially, to intimidate. Those flags should be coming down in those shared housing areas and we should have zero tolerance when the flags go up.” 

Peter believes that the political leaders of the two main traditions need to recognise that it is in their mutual interests for Northern Ireland to work.  He says: “If I was a unionist, I would want reconciliation here because I would acknowledge that reconciliation is an important part of making this place work, especially when we are all minorities in Northern Ireland. There is no majority. We're all minorities. And so any way you make this place work from a unionist perspective is to help reconcile the peoples in Northern Ireland so that they can work together better. But if you're from a republican background, I think the exactly same argument applies.”

Peter fears that civil society is not sufficiently powerful or forthright in Northern Ireland, because of its dependence on public funding and the experience that many organisations have closed following withdrawal of funds.  “I think it's really important we find a mechanism for civil society to have its voice heard,” he says. “I think that if you looked at some of the issues that are problematic in politics in Northern Ireland today, I suspect if you handed some of those issues over to civil society, they'd find an answer very quickly, regardless of what those issues are.”

He continues: “I am a fan of things like citizens’ assemblies that we've seen working in the Republic of Ireland very, very successfully.... So there are mechanisms that work. And I think in Northern Ireland we need to find mechanisms to apply civil society ‘s voice, because when you look at some of the big successes of the peace process over the last 20 years, then the big successes, I would argue, are policing and parading. What do they have in common?”  His answer is that the solutions emerged from civil society.

But, warns Peter: “We cannot afford another 10 or 20 years of focusing exclusively on political institutions as the way forward for this peace process.... It's relationship building that is at the heart of peace building.”

The latest podcast interview is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Class division in Northern Ireland even greater than between orange and green, argues CFNI chief.

Class is a bigger and more significant division in Northern Ireland than is the religious divide, argues the chief executive of the Community Foundation Northern Ireland Andrew McCracken.   “Whilst there's the really visible gap between orange and green, the more fundamental and more important gap is the gap between rich and poor and the bubbles of society that we live in,” says Andrew in the latest Forward Together podcast.

He continues: “The thing I really care about, that's part of the answer to that question about how we strengthen civic society is how do we create meaningful bridges and relationships between those bubbles that we all live in.”

Andrew argues that there needs to be a greater focus within the community sector on common themes – such as mental health and suicide – and less on identity issues that divide society.  

“It's about the rich and poor, the class gap, about generosity, and giving, and how we do that,” he says. “There's also something about democracy and [finding a] voice that I think is really important and that the Foundation is supporting projects around. 

“So it seems to me that if we want to really transform civic society, the current mechanisms for democracy that we have aren't all the tools that we need in the tool box. And that's true across the UK.”  He adds: “There's all kinds of additional ways of doing democracy that aren't just about the ballot box. So we funded Northern Ireland's first independent citizens’ assembly [looking at social care] in November.

“So that's where you get people who are demographically representative of all of Northern Ireland. Invite them to take two weekends to be briefed by experts, debate policy [and then] issuing some recommendations on that policy issue. We were overwhelmed by the response... Within two days, we had 300 volunteers, saying, yes, I'll set aside two weekends of my time to do this....

“We were able to have a meaningful conversation and come up with some recommendations together. And it was bloody hard work. But we did it.  For me that's a transformation of civic society that's giving people the confidence that we're able to participate and make decisions together in a way that isn't about fighting the old political battles....

“I think that's a tool that can be used locally as well as nationally to solve a problem. The model of citizens’ assembly that we did is really expensive. And so it wouldn't necessarily be the most sustainable way to run a hundred of those across Northern Ireland.”

While Andrew is a strong supporter of educational integration, he does so to promote wider social integration, not just about bringing together children from different religious traditions.  “It's about mixing people from different backgrounds across wealth and class, [not just] Protestant, Catholic mixing.  The education system is just a massive issue that we need to solve.  The trend in the transfer test system sorts kids based on whether they're rich or poor - and puts the rich kids in one set of schools and the poorer kids in another set of schools.

“In other words, there's two sets of integration problems, of challenges at school. One is the religious differentiation. The other is that broadly wealthy middle class families get their kids into the grammar schools and the poor kids go to the non selective schools.  And with all respect for the people working really hard on the Protestant / Catholic issue, if you give me a thousand pounds to do something about those problems, I’d put it onto the class issue - the rich and poor issue - because it gets even less of a time in the spotlight.”  

Andrew stresses that one of the biggest predictors on whether a child goes into a grammar school is that they are not on free school meals.  “And that is not right. I don't believe that if you have free school meals that makes you more or less intelligent.”  The result, argues Andrew, is “a terrible system”.

When looking to the future, Andrew argues more attention needs to be placed on social deprivation. “Poverty, marginalisation, people who don't have a fair chance in life. Those issues are hugely important and personally to me, much more important than issues about identity and constitution. And there's a strong argument that they are a big chunk of the root causes of conflict.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Deal with disadvantage before unity, argues Senator Mark Daly 

To achieve a united Ireland without a return to conflict requires northern society to resolve the problems of its communities that contain deep-seated deprivation and alienation, argues Senator Mark Daly.  Mark is the former chair of the Oireachtas Good Friday Agreement Implementation Committee and was interviewed for the latest Forward Together podcast shortly after the release of his report, ‘Returning to violence as a result of a hard border due to Brexit or a rushed border poll: risks for youth’.

Mark explains: “This report I did in conjunction with two UNESCO chairs who are experts in preventing violent extremism and they make the point that most kids would never get involved in any of that. But that was the same during the Troubles - most people were not involved in armed conflict on either side. But it didn't take much more than a few people to create a huge amount of harm to the whole society. 

“Professor Pat Dolan and Professor Mark Brennan compiled this report, along with myself and Michael Ortiz who was President Obama's senior policy adviser at the National Security Council on counter-terrorism, but also he was the first US diplomat appointed by the State Department on the issue of countering violent extremism. 

“They put together a number of recommendations - the vast majority of the report is about what needs to be done now in those disadvantaged communities. A lot of great programmes are there, they're being done and they are being done on a cross-community basis.  But they are simply not on the scale that is required, with the amount of money that is needed to make sure that what is termed in this report ‘the agreement generation’ - those who were born just before or since the Good Friday agreement - aren't radicalized.”

He adds that while the cost of dealing with disadvantage and deprivation is large “the investment is going to have a huge return because not doing that investment will have very bad consequences.”

Mark warns of the potential exploitation by paramilitary leaders from both republican and loyalist backgrounds.  “So what it needs is a scaled-up approach.... history could be used as a tool against itself.... instead of using history as a way of mobilising communities to settle grievances from the past.  As we all know, even God can't change the past.Trying to settle grievances by using force is not the way forward. What they [the authors] do is talk about using history as a way of teaching people the consequences of violent resistance. And all the consequences for ordinary people.”

Integration in schools and housing is another core recommendation in the report, which focuses on how to prevent a recurrence of violence, especially in the context of Brexit and possible further tension related to it.

The motivations of paramilitary leaders are also considered.  “It's in the report that some of the community leaders in both communities are community leaders by day and then they're involved in crime... Most people are doing great work, but there are some who are not. And they are giving a romanticised view. And again this is referred to in this report, the romanticised view of the Troubles.”  That, too, applies in both republican and loyalist communities, argues Mark, with paramilitary leaders recruiting young people by misreporting the past.  “Young people who have no memory of the Troubles will be exploited by adults who want to achieve their own ends and give this glorified view of the past.”  What is needed, suggests Mark, is a more objective view of the past to be put forward to undermine the paramilitary narrative.

Mark dismisses the fear that openly discussing the past will re-traumatise victims and relatives – because so many remain traumatised.   “Some of them could be suffering from mental health problems as a result post traumatic stress disorder. Alcohol and drug addiction and that then is having an effect on the next generation. So now we are having a pyramid effect where there are more and more people being affected by the Troubles, including a generation that wasn't even born at the time.

“That's what I'm talking about - the return on investment in mental health services is very important. But that requires structure.... you need a plan. Because policy neglect seldom goes unpunished.”

Mark adds in relation to the history of the Troubles: “The problem with the politics is that there are so many people who have so much to hide on all sides - the paramilitary sides, and the police in the north, and the south, and in Britain.”  There is, though, “no one size fits all answer” to resolve the continuing trauma of victims and their families.  

Openness about the past should be matched by honest planning for the future, suggests Mark. “One lesson of Brexit in relation to the issue of holding referendums is that you do not hold a referendum and then try to figure out the future.  That work needs to be done now, because if you don't do that work now you are adding fuel to a tense situation and then all it needs is a spark.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION

Community planning provides a model that builds on the tradition of the “very strong community spirit that prevailed in Northern Ireland” during the Troubles, argues Aideen McGinley in the latest Forward Trust podcast.  McGinley is a trustee of Carnegie UK, co-chair of its embedding wellbeing project in Northern Ireland and a former senior civil servant.

Aideen stresses that we need to be positive rather than fearful as we look to the future.  “The bottom line is that people do not want to go back,” she says.   Aideen reflects: “I was at an event in Leeds in May with four parts of the civil service across the UK and there was a very interesting workshop on Northern Ireland where a professor from Queen’s University put forward the point that the Good Friday Agreement is a very good agreement. It was an international agreement that took five years to negotiate, with multi strands based on the principle of consent.  In fact, he felt that in the current Brexit devolution situation it’s something the rest of the UK should look at as a model of best practice…. I think what we’re missing at the moment is the leadership.”

Aideen is strongly committed to the principle that government here should focus on the promotion and achievement of wellbeing.  “We started out on the wellbeing agenda back in 2013, it having been very successfully implemented by the Scottish government.”  In Northern Ireland the approach is to “create innovation on common ground”.

“What Carnegie did was they came in and we invited all 11 councils, and all 11 applied, and we’re putting extra resources into three of them. We’re looking at co-production so that it is about working with people to determine what the plans would be. We’re talking about shared leadership.”

From this, says Aideen, community planning has become a vehicle for civic engagement.  It is better today, she suggests to build on the community planning experience than to go back to the old Civic Forum.  “I think this way you can get voices coming up through… local and central government where there’s a voice that the politicians at the top won’t see as a threat, but will actually see as organic. I think some of what’s happening is the shared leadership and the co-production piece as people are working together to prioritise to get their plans, to articulate what’s important to them….  You’re finding that the community planning process isn’t just dominated by the major parties in each area.”

When addressing division in society, Aideen is a strong supporter of shared education.  “For me the shared education model is a really interesting one,” she says. “I have grandchildren who’ve been beneficiaries of it.”  The shared education model might be further developed, she believes, at sixth form level, given the difficulty individual post-primary schools have in offering a sufficiently wide choice of A level subjects.  “I’m not simplistic about it, but I think we have an opportunity coming up, particularly with school finances. There’s hardly a school I know that does not operate on a deficit….  And when they get to secondary and grammar level the kids are not getting the choice of subjects”.

Aideen also believes that we must invest more in mental health services.  “Mental health in Northern Ireland is abominable,” she says. “I’m involved in a mental health charity and it is shocking the levels of suicide, particularly of young men…. I think the biggest crisis in our health service in Northern Ireland is in mental health.”

The latest podcast interview is available here. The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.  

FULL EPISODE NOTES

Politicians in Northern Ireland feel threatened by the concept of a strong civic society, but we should pursue the ambition of creating a ‘People’s Assembly’, argues Lord Robin Eames, the former Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland.  Robin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“We’re at a very delicate stage where our society is beginning to learn that the party politic regime doesn’t necessarily reflect their deepest concerns,” he says.  “I’m talking about health and education and social issues.  What I think is appearing in Northern Ireland is a gulf between the way in which elected politicians are trying to represent views in which they’re not really in touch with the vast majority of society.

“And I think this means that they’re falling back all the time on party political issues. And I think that the Brexit pressure is bringing this to the surface. The old traditional views where unionist or republican parties were able to state fairly clearly their position – that is not necessarily [now] the position of their constituents. And then added to that, there are the people in normal ordinary everyday society who are turning their backs on the party political input and beginning to say – you’re playing your own games, but you’re not either representing us or reflecting what really concerns us at the ground level.”

Robin suggests: “I think we need to do a lot more research into the ‘People’s Assembly’ concept. I think we need to do a lot more on how the media reflects what people on the ground are saying and I think people to a large extent – the people that talk to me, the people that I am in touch with – feel a tremendous degree of frustration at the lack of representation and the lack of  understanding of the media of what really concerns them in everyday life.”

Consideration of a ‘People’s Assembly’ is “only at an early stage”, says Robin.  “It is very similar” to the concept of the citizens’ assemblies in the Republic that have been used to address difficult topics there.  “It is to try to get a voice that is honest, open and in touch with reality.  The structure for that is probably more important even than those who take part in it.”  The main parties in Northern Ireland may seem uncomfortable about any such structure.  “But you see that’s really an indication of feeling threatened.”

When asked about how we create a more shared and integrated society, Robin responds, drawing on his experience as co-chair of Eames-Bradley (the Consultative Group on the Past), “Well we tried to bite the bullet on issues like who was a victim. Do you say that we were all victims?  Those of us who lived through and were involved in the years of the Troubles, we were all victims of a mass of disintegration of society. Is that the way to approach it? Victims are people who suffer, irrespective of the label, irrespective of who they were, or what they did. They suffered because of the enormity of what the Troubles did. Or do we sink back into the orange and green, in which we say that only an innocent person is a genuine victim?”

So does Robin believe that we can only make progress in building a future society, if we honestly and openly deal with the past?  “That’s exactly what I’m saying,” he responds. “You must remember that I’m speaking from my personal experience of ministering to many hundreds of people who were suffering because of the Troubles…. Maturity demands that we take a wider view of what a victim was.  A victim is someone who suffered physically, mentally, spiritually, materially, because of the fact they lived in a certain place, they did a certain job, they had a certain political outlook and they were involved in a situation that was massively bigger than anything they were told they would have to face.”

What then of Eames-Bradley?  “The interesting thing is that it was a technicality over proposing a particular figure for compensation that was the watchword for those who tried to destroy the report.  Time and time again in all the years since, people have gone back to Eames-Bradley and even now as the government tries to look at a way of dealing with the past, people come to me and say what did that mean in the Eames-Bradley report? In other words it’s not gathering dust on a bookcase somewhere.  It’s actually still in people’s minds… There are still the seeds of Eames-Bradley. So if you were to ask me if you were doing it again, would you change it, I would probably change the question of mentioning a figure, yes.  But the rest of it should stand.”

He adds: “At the moment, I think Stormont House is progress. I think it owes a lot to Eames-Bradley. And I think that again indicates that a lot of what we said is still in people’s minds.”

Does that mean we need a process for the recovery of truth and do we need those involved to make apologies for us to make progress?  “In a sense you’re already rewriting history.  If you are a republican activist and you say I’m sorry for what I did – does that question your integrity and being involved in the first place? Does it mean for example a loyalist paramilitary – and I’m in touch with many of that ilk at the moment – does it mean that if a loyalist paramilitary comes out into the open and says look I want to apologize for what I did – what does it say about your involvement in the first place?”

Robin warns of the danger of re-writing history.  “People have said to me we need a completely independent history of what happened.  I say, yes of course we do.  But who is going to do that, what is independence and what is the reality of the evidence they will use?….  When I was making my contribution to Eames-Bradley I had a lot of conversations with Desmond Tutu in South Africa over the truth and reconciliation tribunal that was happening in Cape Town.  And the more I listened to him and the more we compared notes, the more I was convinced that the real element in looking at the past is honesty.

“Not honesty that would suit my party, my community. But honesty at a level where society has moved on to say, yes that happened, yes someone in my community caused that, but the truth is that has to be ticked-off as part of the history and you want a totally independent body to look at that in terms of – this is what happened and this is where we move on. That’s not to say you put a camouflage over it. It’s not to say you say oh that is irrelevant, it’s in the past.  It should face up to it, hurtful, dangerous though it is.  This is what happened. This is why we caused it, or we had a role in it.  Let’s put it on the table and let’s move on.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES 

‘Brexit means that Northern Ireland’s constitutional future has become an issue for Europe’, says Denis Bradley

Denis Bradley was keen to move on in the latest Forward Together podcast interview to discuss the constitutional position of Northern Ireland.  “Well that's the one that intrigues me because I don't know the answer!,” he says.  

“First of all I think something very important happened within the last couple of weeks and has not received attention. And that is that the Europeans have said if there a no deal situation we will still have to deal with the Northern Ireland situation.  That's a massive movement.”

Denis insists that he does not believe that the re-imposition of a hard border is possible.  People in border areas – “the local farmer, the local shopkeeper, the local child” – have now become too used to being without borders.  “And anyway, all the border structures would be within green territory.  What I mean by green territory is from here [Derry] to Dundalk is basically - with a few exceptions, a few pockets - it's basically a nationalist homeland.  So to think that you could do that [impose a hard border] is thinking that you can put the cavalry of the old western films out into the fort somewhere.”  But, in the analogy, the Apaches won’t stand for it.

He continues: “The Europeans are saying, if there's no deal.... we will not deal with the British government until we solve this problem. I think that brings us to a new place. To some degree it takes the sweat off Leo Varadkar.  But I also think it's an understanding that we're different.  That's what makes us different from Scotland.... I think the fascinating thing about Brexit is that it was an English construct. And it is going to leave England incredibly unsettled for a long period of time.  Whether that is for five years, or 10 years, or a generation, I do not know.”

That, in turn, leads to a new conversation about the future of Northern Ireland, including the potential All Ireland Forum, favoured by Denis.  “What we need is for a conversation to start,” he says.  “What we need is engagement from all the different parts of this island.”  But, he warns: “I do see unionism’s propensity to go back in on itself and at this difficult moment not to engage. I can understand why this is. They come from a position that nationalism can lose 20 times or 40 times - unionism can only lose once... They will become incredibly defensive.”

Denis wonders if unionism and loyalism is beginning a process of change. “My contact with loyalism over the last 20 years has been substantial and they have been very angry with the DUP, because they feel betrayed by the DUP and they feel that the DUP looks down their nose at them.  I think they are much less willing to be radicalised into creating havoc on the streets if we lose the ‘precious union’ or the ‘precious union’ is under threat.”

But Denis adds that “the southern government and parties say this is crazy, this is not the right time” to call for a border poll.  He continues: “Of course it's the wrong time and it's crude, it's simplistic, and crude and wrong to have a border poll now. That's as crude as you can get. The difficulty is that if you take that off the table, I'm not convinced unionism would move at all. It will stay within its own narrow ground. It won't move out into engagement. 

“I think that the border poll, or the possibility of a border poll, at least challenges unionism. And I think Peter Robinson was hinting at that. I think Peter Robinson was prepared to look at that and make his people ready for that.... Robinson seems to be this lone voice and we haven't heard much else coming forth.  I think it was Colum Eastwood who made a statement, which I thought had a lot of validity - he said it's very hard to have a conversation with people who don't want to talk to you.  Is there civic society within unionism which is prepared to talk?  Nationalism will talk.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘Looking at how we got here can help us deal with the present and the future’, argues historical geographer

A better understanding of our history is important as a means of bringing our society together, believes Anthony Russell of the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation.  “One of the things that we have been trying to do in the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation is to use history as a tool for reconciliation, rather than something that has to be fought over,” he explains.  “Looking at how we got here” can help us to deal with the challenges we face today, says Anthony in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“And one of the things we tried to do in the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation is to identify myths and to challenge those myths in a variety of ways,” Anthony adds. That has involved performances of historical events taking place within religious settings in which those events are explained and placed in context.  In doing so, they challenge the assumed connections between religious affiliations and political attitudes.

“I think there's great hope in that,” says Anthony.  “People looking at history, at the 1788 rebellion, the Great Famine, John Mitchell, with an openness to look at history and to learn from history.”

Part of that reconsideration of history includes recognising the connections and common causes between Presbyterianism and other non-conformist Protestantism with Catholicism in the past.  “Oh very much so,” says Anthony, “and I think that's one of the great values of the 1788 commemoration with the very strong identification of the [Thomas Payne book] Rights of Man.”  

Explaining history through personal stories is important, stresses Anthony.  “Of course history is open to interpretation, but the idea of storytelling is very, very powerful. And Stalin was right -  a million people is just a statistic. People pay much more attention to one person’s story.... it's very, very hard not to have empathy with any victim when you hear their stories.”

Looking at today’s society through the eyes of a historical geographer Anthony says that he sees parallels with other places.  “I think we have to recognise, and the voters have recognised it for us, that there are two ethnic communities here and we should not underestimate the power of ethnicity. I always refer to the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. You had 60 years of a dominant totalitarian regime.  Once it was peeled back the first thing that popped to the surface was ethnicity and we'd be very foolish in the north of Ireland to ignore just how deep ethnicity is. 

“And we may not like it, but any problems we have have to be approached by recognizing that we have two very distinct communities.... In practice it means not doing what we're doing at the moment. And that is that we have two blocks which are intent on maximizing the power of that ethnicity.”

There are strong connections between the Thomas D'Arcy McGee Foundation and Canada – where Thomas D’Arcy Magee was a cabinet minister.  (He was born in Carlingford, raised in Cushendall, emigrated to Boston, returned to Ireland and became a leading republican, wanted for treason, escaped to America and then Canada, where he became a father of Canadian Confederation, but opposed the Fenian movement – a supporter of which assassinated him.)  Anthony reflects on how, in Toronto, the Orange Order has evolved to become a multi-racial and secular institution.

There are challenges today for unionism in Northern Ireland.  “In the past when a unionist peered over the border onto the South, they saw exactly what they had predicted a hundred years ago - a priest-ridden Free State.... Southern society has changed enormously and, of course, much, much more liberally.  Despite the apparent lack of notice by the DUP, I think the unionist community is very well aware that geographically and demographically that change is happening.  They will have to accommodate that - and that puts a major responsibility on the nationalist and republican community to be generous in their response.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE DESCRIPTION 

Making progress on parading – can Northern Ireland learn from Derry-Londonderry?

As Northern Ireland moves towards what will hopefully be a peaceful 12th July, the manager of ‘the Derry Model’, Maeve McLoughlin – a former Sinn Fein MLA – reflects on how peaceful parading was negotiated, after years of conflict and tension in Derry-Londonderry.  “It was spurred on by a commitment to the city,” she says, “and by people who genuinely wanted to be in a better place.  

“That was the feeling of the Apprentice Boys as well.  They love the city.  They want the city to be perceived and presented in a very positive light.  There is no doubt that the demographics, the largely republican/nationalist city, spurred on those conversations.  It was also that when you have rights, you also have responsibilities.”

The Derry Model is a conflict transformation peacebuilding project, which seeks to spread awareness of the city’s success in addressing its historic problems over parading – which used to lead to the city centre being virtually closed down during parades.  Progress was achieved through extensive negotiations, compromises and recognition of both rights and responsibilities.  Maeve explains the work of the Derry Model in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“It is not one thing,” says Maeve.  “We couldn’t say the Derry Model equals this set of circumstances or experience.  It’s a mixture.  I think it’s our demographics.  We had leadership.  We had people willing to take risks.  We have sets of experiences.  I wouldn’t be naive enough to say we can simply lift those experiences and tailor them into other areas.

“But we have templates.  We have a sense of people who were willing to take risks - that is a big important message for other communities.  So it is how we use those experiences to cascade that learning to other circumstances.  That is not to say it is all going to fit perfectly.  In terms of parading, the relationship in this city of the Apprentice Boys with the residents’ groups, and the relationship we have between the Bloody Sunday Museum and the Siege Museum is unique.  And the business sector played a very proactive role to reach an accommodation.”

Maeve says that republicans, nationalists and business leaders in Derry were willing to take risks to achieve agreement on parading, as were people in the loyal orders.  “When we look at the Maiden City Accord between the bands’ forum, potentially sanctioning or disciplining individual band members or entire bands.  That was a very significant message to the city, that people were taking this seriously.”  This meant the city could take control of problems relating, for example, to drunken “hangers-on”. 

The Derry Model is also concerned with dealing with the past.  Maeve says that while the concept of ‘justice’ means different things for different people, learning the truth is central to how we should deal with the past.  She adds that apologies – such as that from David Cameron for Bloody Sunday – can help the families of some victims and can be important.

But Maeve warns that Northern Ireland cannot made lasting and genuine progress unless there is economic, social and environmental regeneration that addresses actual need.  “We won’t change the outcome unless we target that need,” she says.  “If we keep doing what we’re doing, we’re going to have the same outcome.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘We need an agency to promote social integration’, says Father Martin Magill

Northern Ireland needs a body lobbying for social integration, learning from the success of the Integrated Education Fund in its work promoting integrated schools, says Father Martin Magill.  Without an agency pushing the integrated housing agenda, it will be difficult to make sufficient progress, he says.  Martin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I grew up living in a neighbourhood where my next door neighbour was Presbyterian; further on down the road Church of Ireland; further down the road, Methodist,” recalls Martin. “We were various Christian denominations. My home area is people living side by side. For me, that's one of the most important things. I'm aware, for example, of the Integrated Education Fund and we hear a lot of that. I hear nothing to the same degree on encouraging integrated housing. And I really would like to see the likes of integrated neighbourhoods.”

He continues: “The sort of society I believe that we need to see for the city [of Belfast], Northern Ireland, Ireland, whatever, is where we can live together, where there are various religions.... faiths generally - those with faith and those without faith.....  I would like to see a strategic body focusing, especially, on housing.”

Like many other Forward Together interviewees, Martin is positive about the principle of civic engagement.  “I might use the old cliché, politics is too important to be left to the politicians alone.”  He continues: “I would be very keen that we look again at the whole question of some type of civic forum.  For me, there was a huge value in that. I mean, the whole idea of bringing people from a variety of different backgrounds is really important.”

But Martin is concerned at the low level of voter turn-out at local elections.  “And yet at the same time, when I'm talking to people... they're very interested in the type of society they want.”  Martin adds: “I think it's important that people realize they can make a difference, that their views matter, their opinions matter.”  And while he has concerns about the outcome of the Republic’s citizens’ assemblies discussions on abortion, he says about the use of the assemblies “there's something worth exploring there”. 

In a previous Forward Together interview, Peter Sheridan of Co-operation Ireland raised the idea of neighbourhood citizens’ assemblies to address the conditions that lead to recruitment of young people by paramilitaries.  Martin responds to that idea: “I'm part of a group called Stop Attacks. So, yes, I can see what he would be talking about.”  But, he cautions, “sometimes people are reluctant to speak when it comes to that issue.”

Martin is more positive about the concept of participatory budgeting, giving people more control over public spending in their own areas.  “I think that could be of real value,” he says.  “That's the sort of direction that I'm going... I think that could be a very useful way of helping us come together as a larger group, as a community.”

Another initiative Martin favours is “community champions” – people who take a lead in making neighbourhoods more diverse.  “I would like to see something more strategic. I would like to see what I call community champions.  I am aware of people who have purposely chosen to live in areas that wouldn't be necessarily their first choice.  I would know of a number of people. I think we need more of that.”

Martin is also a strong supporter of moves that achieve reconciliation.  He gives the example of the meetings between Brighton bomber Patrick Magee and Jo Berry, whose father was killed in the blast.  “That acted as a catalyst for people to come and tell their stories,” he recalls. “They wanted to tell their stories.”

One of the advantages of that process of reconciliation is the humanising of those involved, including those who died.  Another example of that approach was the inter-faith event where there was a reading of the complete list of those who died in the Troubles.  “The focus we wanted was on people’s suffering, rather than getting into the details of how this person died and was this person an innocent victim or a perpetrator or whatever.  We instead focused on the people that the loved ones left behind.  Irrespective of what he or she or they did, inevitably people would be left to suffer as a consequence of their death.”

Martin also reflected on the reaction to his comments at the funeral of Lyra McKee.  “I was completely taken by surprise,” he says. “The reaction I got was in the middle of a sentence.  It was probably really that evening that I began to realize, oh, gosh, this has got quite a bit of traction.  It's probably only really in the days afterwards that I then got a sense of just the impact of it.  Immediately afterwards, it felt like almost a tsunami of attention: letters, phone calls, emails, it just went on and on and on and on. 

“But now, one of the things is that I'm very conscious that I want to make sure I am well grounded. I had to make a big effort to do that.  In many ways it really has given me an opportunity out of a really tragic situation to be able to speak into situations.”

There is a sense now, though, that the immediate impact has waned.  “I would want to see a real momentum again,” says Martin.   “If we go back to the moment in the cathedral - not focusing on me, but focusing on the response that people actually had both inside and outside the cathedral and well beyond that.  Our politicians, I really would encourage them not to focus on me, but focus on the response of people. There was something very telling for me. That was like a catalyst moment.  I really do believe that needs to be made the most of.”

Martin’s other message to politicians though is about the peace dividend, that Northern Ireland society expected to enjoy after the Good Friday Agreement – but for which many poorer communities are still awaiting.  “The peace dividend should be seen as something that we should all enjoy. Not just some of us, but all of us.” 

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

New way of consulting with civic society is part of the talks negotiations, discloses Naomi Long

Creating a new mechanism for consulting with civic society is part of the talks negotiations aimed at getting Stormont back, Alliance Party leader Naomi Long has disclosed.  Naomi is a newly elected MEP, former MP and has just resigned her role as an MLA.  She was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“We need to find a role for engaging with civil society,” suggests Naomi.  “I think there is a lot of good work that goes on in our communities. And as elected representatives, we're all very conscious of that. But I don't think we ever really lived up to the objective of finding a proper mechanism through which those of us who were elected members of the community would be able to formally engage with civic society.”

She continues: “One of the things that we have been looking at, certainly in terms of the talks and the discussions we have been having, is how do we get something which is akin to the Civic Forum, which was there originally, but is able to engage with an Assembly... and would actually be a good platform for us to engage with. That is one of the strands of work that we have been looking at as part of the discussions that are ongoing, to get the Assembly restored.”

Naomi believes that the former Civic Forum was built on structural faults.  “I think it was large and unwieldy. But I think, moreover, there wasn't the real commitment from the political side to believe that engagement with the wider community would bear any fruit.... So what we have had are [political] parties that are more focused on their leadership role and less on the engagement side.”

A stronger mechanism for consulting civic society and communities could be the basis to reform the two party dominance of the current governance structures, suggests Naomi.  She explains: “We've gone from a situation where we had an inclusive process, to one which very rapidly became a four party process, as it was. We had to battle for it to be even a five party process. What emerged more recently was.... [a] two party process, literally just the DUP and Sinn Fein. And it doesn't work, because if people are locked into very fixed positions and they just repeatedly meet with each other to discuss those positions, there's no new thinking, there's no creativity, but there's also no opportunity to bring new issues or ideas to the table that could allow people to start to move their positions.”

She adds: “I think that there is an appreciation now that wasn't there over the last few years that we do need input from outside the political sphere in terms of input from the community sector, the voluntary sector, the churches and other organizations who have a genuine vested interest in society and how it works.... I think that there is an appreciation now for civic engagement and the importance of it as a way of dealing with complex and fraught issues that perhaps wasn't there before. I also think the emergence of the citizens assembly in the south and how that negotiated through what was very sensitive work around and for example, termination of pregnancy and how they would deal with that has led to a new appreciation of the fact that if civic engagement is properly structured and effort isn't just simply a replication of the political views of the parties in proportion to party size, then it has something new to bring to the table.”

Naomi stresses that the role of citizens’ assemblies is not to be an alternative system of representation, nor a decision-making body, but rather “a mechanism by which you deal with difficult issues.”  She adds: “We would certainly want to see some form of civic engagement.”  

In a wide-ranging conversation, Naomi goes on to say that government in Northern Ireland needs to find a way to ensure that decisions assist an agreed objective of greater integration.  “You've got to look at every decision that you make in government and you've got to look at how that decision will impact on the level of segregation or integration in our society, how it will impact on the ability of people to share their communities or not.”  She goes on to say that integrated education helps to create clusters of integrated housing.  Naomi also praises the impact of Belfast’s Glider bus system in improving connections across the city and so breach old geographic barriers. “Public transport is crucial” in creating safe ways to improve social integration, she says.

Naomi is clear that the cost of public service segregation and duplication – she quotes studies putting the annual cost at between £750m and £1.5bn – creates incentives to bring society together.  “The difficulty, of course, with that is that none of it is unlocked cheaply either. And we have been very honest about that.  It is essentially an invest to save opportunity. 

“But that's a very strong argument to take to Treasury when you go and make a pitch for additional funds.... If you say to them, we have a massive hole here in our budget. But if you give us the money, we can spend it in a way that will fix that hole. So in future years, the hole will be smaller. They're going to be much more interested and invested in that project than they would be otherwise.  There is an opportunity to look at the costs of division in our society. Some of those are hard financial costs of duplication, of the violence and the extra policing, and everything else that we require. Some of them are missed opportunity costs, things that we can't do and miss out on because of division.  It's really important that we look at those costs and see how we minimise those. One way is at a policy level and the other way is by investing to restructure what we do. We have a massive problem, for example, in the sustainability of our education system.”

Naomi goes on to say that while the Stormont House Agreement is not perfect in dealing with legacy issues, it “is possibly the last chance we're going to have to do anything that looks anything like a comprehensive process”.  She does not support a statute of limitations or amnesty in relation to past events.  Her priorities for dealing with the past are for transparency, adoption of the Stormont House Agreement, pensions for victims, plus investment in counselling services for people with continuing trauma and in social care for people as they deal with their injuries as they get older.

She believes that the constitutional conversations need to take place within the context of the Good Friday Agreement, and the working of its institutions.  Naomi adds that the conversation “should not be just led by politicians” and should feature a major role for civil society.  She opposes an early calling of a border poll.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

 ‘A stronger role for civic society must be central to getting government back’

International peace negotiator John McKinney has urged the political parties to include a stronger role for civic society in a reformed structure of governance for Northern Ireland.  John – a former chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body and of Omagh District Council – was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Asked how civil society in Northern Ireland should be strengthened, John says: “I don't think we have a framework adequate to do it.  I think we had an opportunity, but that opportunity was missed after the Good Friday Agreement.  We had a Civic Forum that we set up, but it didn't operate. There are many reasons for that. I don't think the will was there by political parties. So there is no place for people to have a voice and that's been compounded as well by the reorganisation of local government, where we have 11 rather than 26 [councils]. So that people living away from a centre don’t have a mechanism to make any comment whatsoever.

“There's no framework where everyone can work within and that was a missed opportunity.....  When we have an operating Assembly, I think it’s a good opportunity to look at the Civic Forum again.  Because if people don't have somewhere to have a voice, if people don't have somewhere where we can dialogue and have a dialogue, if  people don't have a place for engagement, then we are never going to go anywhere. And I think had we had this type of situation, then I think it would have been different.”

So was the Civic Forum the correct structure for civic engagement?  John responds: “Well it's a structure. There's nothing magical about the Civic Forum. If you go to any country after conflict – and I have been to many, and worked in many – you need this type of structure. There’s many different models. But you do need it. Let's have a debate about what the Civic Forum should look like. Every time we talk about citizen engagement here in Northern Ireland, it's always afterwards. Consultation comes after something has been decided – it’s the wrong way round.

“Some of the countries coming out of conflict would put us in the shade.... I am thinking of Eastern Europe and Cyprus.  I know that Cyprus is not united yet, but they're working at it. They have dialogue forums involving a hundred different type of organisations, economic organisations, women’s groups, everybody, but all within a framework. And that's what I like about it.  Working from both sides.  And they give advice to negotiators so that they can think about what it looks like after the agreement.  I think that's the important thing. I don't think we ever thought about what it would look like after the Good Friday Agreement.”

John is clear that negotiations for the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive must consider the role of civic society in the future governance of Northern Ireland and have a plan for making society more integrated.  “It needs to be a wider debate,” he says. “We should be looking now at what is a shared society going to be like when the Assembly is back up and running – and I am hopeful and optimistic that it will be up again.  We should be having that debate now about what it is going to look like.  If you walk up any main street in Strabane, Omagh, Cookstown, and you ask someone, people are fed-up with politics.”

The solution is clear, argues John.  “Like most things in life, it's about leadership. And there is a complete lack of leadership now. I am not pointing the finger at any political party. It's just a complete lack of leadership. We have a great opportunity with two parties - one from each side of the divide - working together. If both of them could come together and give some sort of leadership about this new horizon that we're going into, it must involve civic society, must set-up some sort of mechanisms for doing that. Look at what the mechanisms should be. I think that's where we have to start and the sooner the better.”

The answer, though, is not necessarily that external brokers need to be brought in to negotiate a solution.  “That's a very interesting point,” concedes John.  “Yes, a little, but not as much as people would think. People will think that they had this wonderful idea of bringing someone in – maybe as a key mentor as it were, maybe from South Africa or the USA...  Yes it would [help].”  But the essential thing is to have “buy-in” from local people, in Northern Ireland, adds John.  The big problem, he suggests, is that people don’t have the belief that the current process is going to succeed.  “What we need is to have a vision from the top and we need support for that vision. We need faith in that vision.  And we need to feel wanted to be part of that.”

John believes that we could have the Assembly back up and running, even without an Executive being operational.  “I always thought that was something that should have happened,” he says.  “People say it just becomes a talking shop, but there is nothing wrong about talking if people have an idea of where that is going to take them.  Unfortunately, talking for talking sake, as we all know, is a waste of time.  I think [the re-establishment of the Assembly without the Executive] could be an intermediate stop that could be taken.”

The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme.

‘Let’s not repeat the mistakes of the past! (But we are.)’

Northern Ireland is “a society that is still emerging from conflict”, warns Conal McFeely, chief executive of one of Northern Ireland’s largest and most successful not-for-profit businesses, the Rathmor Centre[i] in Derry.  He was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.  

“We must collectively not allow ourselves to make the same political mistakes - and the failure of governance - that we've done in the past,” Conal says, before adding “but sadly I believe that we are at the moment”.

Conal continues: “One has to look at the history that gave rise to the conflict here.  It was the impact of partition and the fact that we had a system of governance that clearly denied people equality of opportunity and that in itself gave birth to the civil rights movement.”  The priority remains, he argues, “creating an equal society”.  He goes on: “Clearly if that had been dealt with at the beginning we might not have had the conflict. I see that as a failure of governance.”

According to Conal, continuing weak governance is evidenced by the lack of focus on human rights.  He says: “I would argue that we do need a proper system of political governance. And I think that system of governance needs to be rooted within a human rights framework...  I think that all genuine democracies should be rooted within the human rights framework. And I think we need to construct that. To all intents and purposes that is contained within the Good Friday Agreement. I think that the infrastructure is there. The problem is it just hasn't been implemented and delivered.”

One of the rights being overlooked relates to economic and social wellbeing, Conal argues.  “We need to address the issues of inequality in terms of economic investment, targeting the most marginalized communities within our societies, working class communities, be they loyalist or republican, nationalist or unionist,” he says.

But, Conal adds, there must be a recognition that Northern Ireland is more than unionist and nationalist.  “We now live in a society which is much more diverse than that. I think we need to be in a society where everyone holds the respect of each other, irrespective of their political background, their sexual orientation, their ethnic background.  We now live in a multicultural society. And we need to reflect that in terms of a wider civic society. When people talk about civic society at the moment they tend to talk about nationalism and unionism.”

A broader objective needs to be “social transformation,” says Conal.  “I would view social transformation as something that needs to look at the economic, cultural, educational, environmental needs of society.  Those things are all part and parcel of social transformation.”

He adds: “If you look at the moment where people feel they've been left behind, it's in those communities that have suffered most as a result of the conflict. It tends to be in working class areas.... That's where the highest levels of poverty exist. That's where the highest levels of economic inactivity take place.... There is a sizeable section of our communities who feel left off the agenda.  [We need] effective dialogue initiatives, where we treat everybody with respect, without demonizing or marginalizing them, and engaging with them.... My view is that you need to have policies where you're creating locally based initiatives, social economy initiatives, co-operatives and so on, where people see they have a chance to be involved.”

Conal adds a warning that Brexit is a threat to the peace process.  “Clearly that process at the moment has been stalled because of Brexit. You know that it's not the fault of the people in Ireland. It's not the people in the Northern Ireland who are to blame for that. People have made a decision in Britain that they want to leave the European Union. That has serious consequences for our peace process.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

[i] The Rathmor Centre is a community business providing retail, office and commercial units, based in the Creggan area of Derry. About 300 people work in the complex.

‘We have lost ground in the past 20 years’, claims PUP’s John Kyle

Society in Northern Ireland has gone backwards since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, argues the former leader of the Progressive Unionist Party John Kyle, who is also a GP in Belfast. “In my view we have lost ground in the past 20 years,” he says in the latest Forward Together podcast.

John believes that we need to review the progress that was achieved and consider why it has lost momentum.  He suggests three factors enabled the conflict to end. “The first important element was that violence was a flawed strategy and it didn't achieve its ends,” he reflects. “People got to a certain age where they thought - look, we have suffered, we have paid a price. Do we want our children to have to go through this? Sure as hell we don't.

“I think the second factor was that the churches got their act together. [They ended] the preaching against one another and calling one another anathema. I think that suddenly changed and the churches realized we have a responsibility to love our brother. While we may disagree strongly and vigorously with them, we have got to show respect and love to our brother.... There was a remarkable coming together between the Catholic and Protestant traditions, not involving everyone, but involving a vast majority of influential and leading people and many congregations.... So the theological justification was suddenly removed from the conflict.

The third aspect, particularly within the middle classes in Northern Ireland, was that you were able to travel more...  So they were living in this more mobile society, a more cosmopolitan, more international society. They hadn't realized there was a bigger perspective to the world.... Within the middle classes that ameliorated a lot of the animosity between the two traditions.  And we made progress with the Good Friday Agreement. People had a sense of hope. They said, hey we can do this. And there was a real sense of this has been a monumental step forward, this opens up new opportunities. Let's build on this and let's capitalize on this. 

“But some things happened that undermined trust. There still was a huge reservoir of hurt. People had been damaged and suffered and that reservoir of suffering was not really being properly addressed.”

Since then, argues John, politicians in the main parties have exploited those community differences and continued hurt for party political benefits – to increase their votes.  “I think our politicians need to man up to that and recognize that they have to bear a significant responsibility for what we have lost in the past 10 to 15 years.”  John adds that civic society is giving the powerful politicians a message – which they ignore.  “Politicians do seem to be cocooned when it comes to responding to what broader civil society is saying, because it seems to me that there is a huge disparity between what people say they would like to see happen and what politicians are actually doing.”

John, a loyalist politician, argues that for Northern Ireland’s system to change for the better “people need to have the courage to vote outside of their traditional patterns of voting, particularly in elections where the constitutional issue is not at stake or is not fundamental to what they're doing. I think we need to realize that we need a broader political representation of people who feel exasperated with the politicians who currently hold power, yet they tend to go back and still vote for them at the next election.”

Working class loyalist and unionist areas are suffering from both neglect and the impact of urban planning, John believes.  “Urban planning broke up a lot of the very densely knit communities,” he says, causing a breach of the cohesion and sense of community that used to predominate.  “I mean we had terrible housing. When I was a young GP working in east Belfast, some of the housing was appalling. So we needed to do something about that. But in removing that and then building new housing stock, that sense of community was fundamentally undermined.”

John believes that to make progress it is essential that we see the personal, not just collective groups.  In particular, we need to recognise the individual pain of victims of The Troubles.  “Colin Davidson has done some remarkable work in terms of victims and survivors and one of the things that Colin says is that most of the people that he's worked with, what they're looking for is an acknowledgement of their suffering.... I think we have failed to acknowledge the suffering and loss.... What Colin Davidson has done is to show the personal face of the pain of The troubles and, yes, the physically injured bodies.”

That same point about dealing with people as people, not just as representatives, can help us make progress in the political logjam, John suggests.  “My understanding is that during the negotiations behind the Good Friday or Belfast Agreement, one of the first things George Mitchell did was to take the politicians out of the current situation here, take them away and enable them to relate to each other as human beings. I think we have a huge need still to do that - to relate to one another as human beings, not as political opponents, or as the other side, or as the enemy, or as the cause of my suffering. We need to find new contexts to enable people to talk together.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘If we tell people the cost of segregation, they will support greater integration’

If people are told the financial cost of segregation and service duplication, there will be much greater support for social integration, says community worker Maureen Hetherington.  Maureen is director of The Junction community and peace-building centre in Derry-Londonderry and was interviewed in the latest ‘Forward Together’ podcast.

“I have no doubt that integrated education is absolutely fundamental to getting people to know each other, to engage with each other,” stresses Maureen. “The difficulty there is that we don't have the integrated society. So we absolutely need to start the social housing, that has to be cross-community and it has to be mixed. We could highlight the cost of segregation. 

“When we get down to the bread and butter issues, the majority of people out there want the best for the children, their family, they want to keep surviving, they want a quality of life.  This cost of segregation, if people realise, if we look at that and redistribute the money to where it is really needed, then I think that people would be up for a more integrated society. The majority of people do want change. They do want a better future. But it's taking that leap of faith, but also taking the steps towards that... exposing the segregation for what it is - the systems and structures that keep people separated - and finding ways of bringing them together.”  Maureen believes that the other key element of integrating society is for people to live in genuinely shared communities.  

Maureen is a strong believer in civil society alongside politics that works – but believes, for the time being, that the politics are broken.  “I think that in any society we need a top down and a bottom up approach,” she says. “Unfortunately not having anything at the top at the moment, it relies very heavily on the bottom up approach. I think that the citizens’ assembly is a very good idea and it's very good to have people actually having a civil, mature conversation that draws out the common sense and the conclusions – the greater good - then you can actually reach a consensus and then you realize everything is about compromise.

“But unfortunately whenever we have politicians who have absolutely no interest in dealing with the common or greater good, and everything is based on the self-interest of the party, it becomes stymied and it becomes limited. I worry all the time that we raise expectations in the community and then when nothing comes of it, people get very disillusioned, disheartened and they disengage. And part of that is that they continually try to make progress. They go to the workshops, they'll do what they can, but then ultimately it’s stymied or stopped or you know it comes to an abrupt end and progress can’t be seen. People have to be in it for the long-term.”

In this latest podcast interview, Maureen warns on the mental health impact of social media on young people, but also the risks of isolation for the elderly who are not computer literate.  In a wide-ranging conversation, Maureen argues that society cannot have real peace until patriarchal structures are dismantled and calls for “gender justice”. “That's a huge challenge,” she stresses.

Maureen urges Northern Ireland society to move on from the past and avoid using history in ways that prevent us from making progress.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

Much has happened in the last month.

Theresa May has said she will step down as Prime Minister on 7 June.  Her replacement as leader of the Conservative Party will be selected by just over 100,000 members of the party, after a short list of two has been agreed by Conservative MPs.  Assuming this time – unlike last time – the decision does go to the membership, a new leader of the Conservative Party will not be in place until mid July.

The new leader of the Conservative Party will then be asked by the Queen to form a government – unless, and this is vaguely possible, a significant number of Conservative MPs refuse to support a government led by the new leader.  This would create crisis and chaos - and is unlikely.

Moreover, the DUP’s confidence and supply arrangement with the Government is in difficulty.  It is in supposed to be in place until the end of this Parliament – when the next election is held.  But the DUP has in effect breached the agreement by voting against Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement.

So the Conservative Party may not have a majority under the new leader unless and until another confidence and supply arrangement is in place, or the existing one reaffirmed.

The European elections have changed the context for the leadership election.  The Brexit Party gained around a third of votes in Britain, destroying the Conservative Party’s electoral support.  This in itself pushes the Conservative Party towards a stronger pro-Brexit position.  Moreover, a recent opinion survey found that the majority of Conservative Party members favour leaving the EU without a deal, with 76% favouring no deal over no Brexit.  Leadership contenders will be playing to that audience.

The favourite to win is Boris Johnson, whose previous comments indicate a lack of concern over the Irish border.  He seems to believe it is not a real issue.  However, he might become a more serious politician if he became prime minister.  And he did, at the end, vote for Theresa May’s Brexit withdrawal agreement.

Second favourite is Dominic Raab, who favours a no deal Brexit – probably on the basis that a more favourable deal could be negotiated after the UK leaves the EU.  Esther McVey is another front runner, with a similar view.  

Of the others, Michael Gove is more pragmatic over Brexit – but has taken a hard line on the Northern Ireland peace process, arguing that the Good Friday Agreement was a mistake.  Foreign secretary Jeremy Hunt is one of the few contenders to say that a no deal Brexit outcome would be very damaging for the UK.

The European elections had other impacts.  The Labour Party did badly, reducing the chances of it forming the next UK government.  In Northern Ireland, the Ulster Unionist Party did badly, losing its MEP seat.  While Sinn Fein topped the poll, it lost almost as large a percentage of its votes as the Ulster Unionists did, while performing even worse in the Republic.  Sinn Fein will now be reflecting on its performance and considering what it can do to strengthen its position.

In continental Europe, the largest political groups – the centre right and centre left groups – both lost support.  Ultra nationalists did well.  The liberals also did well, enlarging their group.  This has strengthened the position of Emmanuel Macron, even though his party came second in France behind the far right.  The result of this is that the next President of the European Commission is now more likely to be Michel Barnier.  And that means it is even less likely that the EU would agree to reopen its negotiations with the UK, or in any way change its position.

Pulling these strands together, the likelihood now is that there is probably a more than 50% chance that the UK will leave the EU without a deal at the end of October.  That in turn makes it likely that there will be some type of controlled border in Ireland, either a land border or in the Irish Sea.  Or some combination of the two.  That is the probability that should be planned for.

This is not inevitable, but it is difficult to see how any other outcome can be achieved, given the political dynamics played out in the European elections, plus the repeated stalemate in the House of Commons.  It is correct to say that there is no majority in the House of Commons for a no deal exit, but nor is there as yet a majority for anything else either.  And in the absence of an alternative agreed position, the default setting is that the UK leaves the EU at the end of October.  And that is now what other EU countries are planning for.

The best hope for Ireland and Northern Ireland is perhaps that Boris Johnson becomes prime minister – and promptly changes his position to one of pragmatism and gets the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May through the House of Commons.  Just how he could do that, is difficult to plot at the moment.

Justice for victims is achieved by “giving them a society that works”, says Fergus O'Dowd TD of Fine Gael.  He is a member of the Oireachtas Good Friday Implementation Committee and was appointed earlier this year by Taoiseach Leo Varadkar to lead a new Fine Gael group to develop links with Northern Ireland.  He is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Discussing how to deal with events of the past, Fergus stresses that victims and their relatives must be treated fairly, and criticises recent remarks by Northern Ireland secretary Karen Bradley in the House of Commons about Bloody Sunday.  She initially said that killings by security forces were "not crimes", before rowing back on the remarks.

“Some of the commentary wasn't helpful,” Fergus says, adding, “the Secretary of State wasn't helpful.”  The risk, he says, is that “you have a society where you get law, but you don't get justice.”  The best approach, he suggests, is “you give them justice by giving them a society that works, an administration that respects all sides”.

Fergus urges Sinn Fein to take their seats in the House of Commons in order to help protect the whole of Ireland from the impact of Brexit.  “The nationalist voice has not been heard in the UK Parliament.  I think it is hugely important that it would be and that would help. But obviously it probably won't happen.... This decision is about all of Ireland....  This is a historic, huge, decision, which will have ramifications probably for hundreds of years for all we know.”

Fergus stresses that he is an Irish nationalist, who believes in achieving a united Ireland by consent.  But he believes this should not create a bar to engaging with, and working with, unionists in the north.  He makes a plea to the DUP – to engage with politicians in the Republic.  “I've met some unionists, not too many of the DUP.  I would like to engage more.  I need to understand their position better. I've met moderate unionists and I understand their position absolutely and respect it. I've met moderate nationalists.  I need to meet with the majority party in the north, which is the DUP.”

He is clear that citizens’ assemblies were of enormous importance in enabling southern politics to deal with the challenging decisions around same sex marriage and abortion.  Fergus believes that citizens’ assemblies could do the same with constitutional issues in the north, including, at some point, a possible united Ireland. 

Fergus stresses that what has happened in recent years has meant “we've become a completely different society”.  He is a TD in County Louth, based in Drogheda, a town which is noticeably more multi-cultural than anywhere in Northern Ireland.  He says that at one recent meeting, those present had a mix of 32 different first languages.  Yet Drogheda and the Republic seem to be more successful than Northern Ireland at integrating communities. 

One means of supporting integration has been by giving parents the choice of the status of new schools. “It's a huge change and it's very welcome because the views of the parents are the ones that count...  If you continue to have separate schools for separate religions, I don't think that's a good thing, personally.  I think that integration means that you go to the same school, the school that is nearest.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.

‘Political leadership is key to making progress’

Developing mutual respect, strengthening relationships and building proper political leadership are the basis for making progress in Northern Ireland, believes independent unionist MLA – and former justice minister - Claire Sugden.  She is interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Talking before the announcement of renewed political talks, Claire expressed her frustration at the lack of a functioning Assembly and Executive.  “We've had a situation here at Stormont where we haven't had a sitting assembly for two years.  And I think the anger amongst the general public is palpable. You know I feel it and see it every day. I'm a great believer that leadership is about bringing people with you. And I don't think politics is doing that right now. 

“I actually think good politics and good governance is what's missing from our puzzle. You know that the past 20 years really were about establishing the institutions, establishing the peace and ensuring that we get to a place where we can pull together. I think now is the time where we actually work together and we start delivering for the people of Northern Ireland. And I think when we do that we might start to see that people realize we're all the same despite our backgrounds.... You know there's not one person in Northern Ireland that wouldn't tell me that they just want to be helped and they want the country to move forward. How we get there is leadership and good governance.”

And Claire is one of those politicians who is genuinely keen to open up the political system to bring in more non-political voices to improve engagement and strengthen democracy.  “I think the work that's being done on a civic forum or a civic assembly, I think is really positive,” she says. “I think people do need to be engaged because too often I suppose politicians take it for granted that they know what the public [wants]... So yes there needs to be a mechanism to suggest what public opinion really is - a safe space if you like for politicians to engage in a debate.... 

“I think it's sad that post-Good Friday Agreement that the Civic Forum didn't come to anything. I think it was perhaps more [about] it's makeup rather than the intention and the idea around it. It wasn't genuinely civic. It was perhaps people who already had a voice within the political system and that's what any future sort of civic forum or civic platform needs to be about - it needs to be about people on the ground, it needs to be about the people who actually are suffering from the fact that we don't have an assembly.... The people we need to get here are the people who are not engaged...

And to me that's leadership. You're bringing people along with you by having them in the room having the conversation.

“My experience with the political parties - and I certainly don't speak for any of them - is that they do not represent the best interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. Every MLA will tell you that it's not just unionists who come into their office or nationalists, it's people from all backgrounds.  Day-to-day, it's actually our job to represent and advocate for their best interests, on their behalf.”

Claire argues that dividing lines between the political parties get in the way of making Northern Ireland a better place. “Where we seem to get stuck is on party policy,” she says.  “I very much see my job is about improving public services for the people of Northern Ireland.  And I think sometimes the higher level stuff gets in the way.”  She adds that “the past is one of the things that's getting in the way of us dealing with the present and the future”. 

She continues: “How can we even have a conversation towards uniting an island when we can't unite ourselves within a part of the island?”  That process of healing our society includes being open and honest about the past – and trying to understand why people from different backgrounds did the things they did.  “I think the greatest skill that any politician can have is empathy,” she says. “You don't have to agree. And I think sometimes we misunderstand empathy with agreement. It is important to know where people come from.”

It also involves having a better understanding of what did happen.  Claire stresses: “One thing that really struck me in my work as minister of justice when I was meeting a lot of victims and their families was the trauma from what had happened. Trauma is such a big part of conflict. And I think it's appalling that as a post-conflict society we have never even considered how we dealt with our trauma and still aren't 20 years later.  But that trauma seems to get passed from generation to generation.

“If we are genuinely going to reconcile, we have to break that trauma at some point.   I met a grandmother who sadly then passed away.  But it's their grandson who's sitting in the room, talking to me about the injustices of their relative being taken during the Troubles and the fact that they haven't got answers and that the government hasn't upheld their responsibility around that. So I don't think it's enough to say time will be a healer, because I think trauma, particularly in a post-conflict situation, is going to get passed from generation to generation to generation.  If we don't address it then we will be still facing the same issues in 50 years time.”  

Claire adds: “I think there are current politicians who are suffering from their own traumas of the past. I think trauma is an inevitable part of life, whether it's in Northern Ireland because of post-conflict, or whether it's because someone close to you passed away when you were 16. But it's how we deal with that - and that's how we move forward.  And I don't think we've been given the tools, or even the knowledge, to be able to do that.”

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme of Derry City and Strabane District Council.