holywell trust

A Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland is overdue and would protect the interests and concerns of all the population, insists Colin Harvey, professor of human rights at Queen’s University, Belfast.  He was talking in the latest Forward Together podcast from the Holywell Trust.

The Good Friday Agreement provided the expectation that there would be a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland that would safeguard citizens’ rights. And a committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly is, more than 20 years on, considering this. But what would a Bill of Rights achieve – and which ‘rights’ would be included?

“If you look at what’s driving politics on both parts of the island, it’s real concerns about healthcare and housing and basic social and economic rights,” says Colin. “There’s a real chance to make sure that socio-economic rights on the island are no longer second class rights in the future.”

Colin argues that as well as health and housing, there is also a human right to environmental protection, addressing climate change and climate justice. He insists that what he calls “basic social and economic rights” need legal protection. “In the future, health care is a human right that needs to be solidly underpinned by legal guarantees.”

But does this mean that there should be a legal right for everyone having a job? “I think it’s important to recognize socio-economic rights as human rights, including employment rights. But… there are often balancing exercises that go along with those human rights instruments – not all human rights are absolute.

“I think the starting point has to be better recognition in law of the basic human rights that people need to have. And human rights advocates, equality advocates, social justice advocates on this island – but actually in Europe and globally – need to do a much better job at winning that argument. That’s not to say that human rights protections will deliver a utopia. They won’t. They’re really a starting point.

“But we’ve all got to try and agree that these things are basic human rights that have to be reflected in law. For example, I still think the north needs a Bill of Rights.”

Human rights advocates feel let down by the lack of progress following the Good Friday Agreement. “The Agreement held out a clear promise that it wouldn’t just be a shared society, that it would be a shared and better society,” insists Colin. “And that would include a number of things, including better human rights protection.”

In 2008, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission – whose members included Colin – submitted recommendations to the British government on a Bill of Rights. Yet “we still haven’t had that Bill of Rights delivered”. “What we see at the moment is there’s an ad hoc assembly committee that’s meeting to renew and revisit that conversation. So it’s long overdue that we have a Bill of Rights here. But it’s time for people to join that conversation. A conversation focused on not just having shared institutions and relative stability here, but actually the creation of a better society, a more equal society.”

But Colin warns: “The Agreement is very clear that the Bill of Rights is to be delivered at Westminster by the Westminster government.” And the debate has now been affected by the Brexit decision and the “likely loss of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU”. “So there’s a real anxiety and worry that the UK is planning to go backwards in relation to rights, that there’ll be undercutting of those rights, particularly in those basic areas of equality, employment, socio-economic justice, that people are really concerned about here.”

Colin is determined, though, that rights should not perceived as only being applicable for one section of society, but instead are actually protecting all members of society. “Those rights will protect everyone here.”

He continues: “First of all, it gives people a secure recognition. These are not issues of discretion and when they’re actually basic human rights that people have and guarantees. And I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of that. Secondly, it’s hoped it will be used in practice. And I would underline that it will only make a difference to people’s lives if the Bill of Rights that we adopt is an ambitious Bill of Rights. It isn’t just a tweak to the Human Rights Act.

“It’s something that reflects an ambitious vision for this society, that’s used in practice – that people are able to access justice in an affordable way, that they can use these rights, that public authorities mainstream these protections and the work that they do in a preventative way, that the Executive and the Assembly takes these measures seriously in their work, so that we’re not always going to court to enforce rights.”

He adds: “I wouldn’t be offering a Bill of Rights or human rights protections as the answer to all the problems of this society and the problems that we face. They’re just the starting point.”

Next week’s podcast will be the second in a two-part consideration of the call for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, featuring an interview with former Progressive Unionist Party councillor Julie-Anne Corr-Johnston.

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

John FitzGerald Podcast Interview

John FitzGerald is one of Ireland’s most respected and influential economists –formerly research professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute and currently chair of the group advising the Irish government on climate policy. He is a strong critic of Northern Ireland’s policies on education and skills training, arguing that these are core factors in the weakness of the northern economy.

He is the latest interviewee in the Holywell Trust’s Forward Together podcast series.

“In terms of productivity, Northern Ireland is at the bottom of the scale,” he says. “That reflects the fact that the educational attainment of the population in Northern Ireland is the lowest for any region in these islands.

“Ireland, London and Scotland are at the top. Northern Ireland is at the bottom. Measuring both in terms of early school leavers, who don’t complete high school, and the proportion of the population who have third level qualifications. Northern Ireland is at the bottom on both of those measures. That helps to explain why productivity performance is so poor.”

Moreover, the proportion of young adults who have third level qualifications is a major factor in determining the location of foreign direct investment, says John. Between a quarter and a third of Northern Ireland's undergraduates leave to study in Britain and two thirds of those do not return.

The contrast with the Republic is significant. A larger proportion of school leavers go to university, and while “quite a high proportion of them, 25 to 40 percent, would then go abroad for whatever reason, but they're homing pigeons and they come back,” says John. “It looks as if the pattern is that you return to where you did your third level of qualifications. Even if you're from Northern Ireland, if you do your undergraduate degree in Britain, you don't come back.”

Moreover, a significant number of those people who do graduate in Northern Ireland go into the public sector. “The public sector is much bigger in Northern Ireland than it would be in most other parts of the United Kingdom,” says John. “That reflects the fact that in the crisis years between 1970 and 2000, and in particular in the 70s when employment collapsed because of the Troubles, it was ramped up in the public sector. And really, the public sector still dominates.”

Another core problem of the Northern Irish economy is the shortage of relevant vocational skills. “In the Republic, one of the success stories of the last 30, 40 years was the institutes of technology.” These, argues John, have been a foundation for some of the key industrial growth areas, such as health care devices and pharmaceuticals.

The contrast with Northern Ireland is substantial and linked to the influence of academic selection to the structure of northern society. Selection at 11 tends to separate pupils at a young age, with one route being academic and the other vocational. Research, says John, “shows that segregation by educational attainment in grammar schools and secondary schools is very damaging to kids, in particular from disadvantaged backgrounds.”

He adds: “It seems to be an urban working class problem, which has been overcome in the Republic, but it's really damaging in Northern Ireland. And it goes back to the selection by schools. The research done in the Republic shows that mixed ability teaching is really important... The research showed streaming doesn't improve the prospects of good bright kids, but seriously impacts on the prospects of kids in the lower half of the distribution of attainment.”

The result is demotivating for those pupils not doing well, while “the bulk of kids from a middle class background get into grammar school. So you're segregating, if you like, on a class basis as well.”

Alongside education and skills, the other basis for necessary reform is infrastructure investment, argues John. “The evidence is that Northern Ireland is an exception in the investment in physical capital compared to the Republic, compared to the United Kingdom as a whole, compared to Scotland. The transfers from London have been used to provide support income through employment, through welfare or good public services, rather than holding back some of that and investing in infrastructure, which would support a productive and active business economy.”

But the strains on infrastructure have been accentuated by urban and rural planning policy. “Belfast has decentralized and partly because of the Troubles, it has not grown. There has been much more dispersed population growth. Whereas in the Republic and in Britain, the problem is that there’s been overconcentration in London, overconcentration in Dublin. But cities across Europe are successful.” The “failure to develop Belfast” backed by good public transport has led to a dispersed population. “So I think there's a need for a change in approach and investing in infrastructure.”

But John concedes: “It's an issue which we face in the Republic as well: Irish people, north and south, would like to live in rural areas and work in urban areas. That's totally unsustainable. And the dynamic of a dense city works.... That is the future.”

This latest podcast in the second Forward Together series is available here on the website of Holywell Trust, a peace and reconciliation charity, and is financed by the Community Relations Council’s Media Grant Scheme

Disclaimer: This project has received support from the Northern Ireland Community Relations Council which aims to promote a pluralist society characterised by equity, respect for diversity, and recognition of interdependence. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the Community Relations Council.

Episode 9 - First Released 24/4/20 

Disclaimer: The views expressed in this presentation are solely those of the interviewer/interviewee and do not in any way represent the views of the Holywell Trust, its partners or their funders. 

Gerard Deane is joined by Roisin McLaughlin from North West Community  Network, Muareen Hetherington from The Junction and Fionnuala Deane from Dog Ears to share updates on each organisation's plans during the lockdown period of the Covid-19 pandemic and to discus the impact that it is having on each organisation. Gerard also provides an update on Holywell Trust's own plans over the next couple of months. 

Holywell Trust is core funded by the Community Relations Council for Northern Ireland. 

FULL EPISODE NOTES

‘We need an agency to promote social integration’, says Father Martin Magill

Northern Ireland needs a body lobbying for social integration, learning from the success of the Integrated Education Fund in its work promoting integrated schools, says Father Martin Magill.  Without an agency pushing the integrated housing agenda, it will be difficult to make sufficient progress, he says.  Martin was interviewed in the latest Forward Together podcast.

“I grew up living in a neighbourhood where my next door neighbour was Presbyterian; further on down the road Church of Ireland; further down the road, Methodist,” recalls Martin. “We were various Christian denominations. My home area is people living side by side. For me, that's one of the most important things. I'm aware, for example, of the Integrated Education Fund and we hear a lot of that. I hear nothing to the same degree on encouraging integrated housing. And I really would like to see the likes of integrated neighbourhoods.”

He continues: “The sort of society I believe that we need to see for the city [of Belfast], Northern Ireland, Ireland, whatever, is where we can live together, where there are various religions.... faiths generally - those with faith and those without faith.....  I would like to see a strategic body focusing, especially, on housing.”

Like many other Forward Together interviewees, Martin is positive about the principle of civic engagement.  “I might use the old cliché, politics is too important to be left to the politicians alone.”  He continues: “I would be very keen that we look again at the whole question of some type of civic forum.  For me, there was a huge value in that. I mean, the whole idea of bringing people from a variety of different backgrounds is really important.”

But Martin is concerned at the low level of voter turn-out at local elections.  “And yet at the same time, when I'm talking to people... they're very interested in the type of society they want.”  Martin adds: “I think it's important that people realize they can make a difference, that their views matter, their opinions matter.”  And while he has concerns about the outcome of the Republic’s citizens’ assemblies discussions on abortion, he says about the use of the assemblies “there's something worth exploring there”. 

In a previous Forward Together interview, Peter Sheridan of Co-operation Ireland raised the idea of neighbourhood citizens’ assemblies to address the conditions that lead to recruitment of young people by paramilitaries.  Martin responds to that idea: “I'm part of a group called Stop Attacks. So, yes, I can see what he would be talking about.”  But, he cautions, “sometimes people are reluctant to speak when it comes to that issue.”

Martin is more positive about the concept of participatory budgeting, giving people more control over public spending in their own areas.  “I think that could be of real value,” he says.  “That's the sort of direction that I'm going... I think that could be a very useful way of helping us come together as a larger group, as a community.”

Another initiative Martin favours is “community champions” – people who take a lead in making neighbourhoods more diverse.  “I would like to see something more strategic. I would like to see what I call community champions.  I am aware of people who have purposely chosen to live in areas that wouldn't be necessarily their first choice.  I would know of a number of people. I think we need more of that.”

Martin is also a strong supporter of moves that achieve reconciliation.  He gives the example of the meetings between Brighton bomber Patrick Magee and Jo Berry, whose father was killed in the blast.  “That acted as a catalyst for people to come and tell their stories,” he recalls. “They wanted to tell their stories.”

One of the advantages of that process of reconciliation is the humanising of those involved, including those who died.  Another example of that approach was the inter-faith event where there was a reading of the complete list of those who died in the Troubles.  “The focus we wanted was on people’s suffering, rather than getting into the details of how this person died and was this person an innocent victim or a perpetrator or whatever.  We instead focused on the people that the loved ones left behind.  Irrespective of what he or she or they did, inevitably people would be left to suffer as a consequence of their death.”

Martin also reflected on the reaction to his comments at the funeral of Lyra McKee.  “I was completely taken by surprise,” he says. “The reaction I got was in the middle of a sentence.  It was probably really that evening that I began to realize, oh, gosh, this has got quite a bit of traction.  It's probably only really in the days afterwards that I then got a sense of just the impact of it.  Immediately afterwards, it felt like almost a tsunami of attention: letters, phone calls, emails, it just went on and on and on and on. 

“But now, one of the things is that I'm very conscious that I want to make sure I am well grounded. I had to make a big effort to do that.  In many ways it really has given me an opportunity out of a really tragic situation to be able to speak into situations.”

There is a sense now, though, that the immediate impact has waned.  “I would want to see a real momentum again,” says Martin.   “If we go back to the moment in the cathedral - not focusing on me, but focusing on the response that people actually had both inside and outside the cathedral and well beyond that.  Our politicians, I really would encourage them not to focus on me, but focus on the response of people. There was something very telling for me. That was like a catalyst moment.  I really do believe that needs to be made the most of.”

Martin’s other message to politicians though is about the peace dividend, that Northern Ireland society expected to enjoy after the Good Friday Agreement – but for which many poorer communities are still awaiting.  “The peace dividend should be seen as something that we should all enjoy. Not just some of us, but all of us.” 

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council.

FULL EPISODE NOTES

 ‘A stronger role for civic society must be central to getting government back’

International peace negotiator John McKinney has urged the political parties to include a stronger role for civic society in a reformed structure of governance for Northern Ireland.  John – a former chief executive of the Special EU Programmes Body and of Omagh District Council – was speaking in the latest Forward Together podcast.

Asked how civil society in Northern Ireland should be strengthened, John says: “I don't think we have a framework adequate to do it.  I think we had an opportunity, but that opportunity was missed after the Good Friday Agreement.  We had a Civic Forum that we set up, but it didn't operate. There are many reasons for that. I don't think the will was there by political parties. So there is no place for people to have a voice and that's been compounded as well by the reorganisation of local government, where we have 11 rather than 26 [councils]. So that people living away from a centre don’t have a mechanism to make any comment whatsoever.

“There's no framework where everyone can work within and that was a missed opportunity.....  When we have an operating Assembly, I think it’s a good opportunity to look at the Civic Forum again.  Because if people don't have somewhere to have a voice, if people don't have somewhere where we can dialogue and have a dialogue, if  people don't have a place for engagement, then we are never going to go anywhere. And I think had we had this type of situation, then I think it would have been different.”

So was the Civic Forum the correct structure for civic engagement?  John responds: “Well it's a structure. There's nothing magical about the Civic Forum. If you go to any country after conflict – and I have been to many, and worked in many – you need this type of structure. There’s many different models. But you do need it. Let's have a debate about what the Civic Forum should look like. Every time we talk about citizen engagement here in Northern Ireland, it's always afterwards. Consultation comes after something has been decided – it’s the wrong way round.

“Some of the countries coming out of conflict would put us in the shade.... I am thinking of Eastern Europe and Cyprus.  I know that Cyprus is not united yet, but they're working at it. They have dialogue forums involving a hundred different type of organisations, economic organisations, women’s groups, everybody, but all within a framework. And that's what I like about it.  Working from both sides.  And they give advice to negotiators so that they can think about what it looks like after the agreement.  I think that's the important thing. I don't think we ever thought about what it would look like after the Good Friday Agreement.”

John is clear that negotiations for the re-establishment of the Assembly and Executive must consider the role of civic society in the future governance of Northern Ireland and have a plan for making society more integrated.  “It needs to be a wider debate,” he says. “We should be looking now at what is a shared society going to be like when the Assembly is back up and running – and I am hopeful and optimistic that it will be up again.  We should be having that debate now about what it is going to look like.  If you walk up any main street in Strabane, Omagh, Cookstown, and you ask someone, people are fed-up with politics.”

The solution is clear, argues John.  “Like most things in life, it's about leadership. And there is a complete lack of leadership now. I am not pointing the finger at any political party. It's just a complete lack of leadership. We have a great opportunity with two parties - one from each side of the divide - working together. If both of them could come together and give some sort of leadership about this new horizon that we're going into, it must involve civic society, must set-up some sort of mechanisms for doing that. Look at what the mechanisms should be. I think that's where we have to start and the sooner the better.”

The answer, though, is not necessarily that external brokers need to be brought in to negotiate a solution.  “That's a very interesting point,” concedes John.  “Yes, a little, but not as much as people would think. People will think that they had this wonderful idea of bringing someone in – maybe as a key mentor as it were, maybe from South Africa or the USA...  Yes it would [help].”  But the essential thing is to have “buy-in” from local people, in Northern Ireland, adds John.  The big problem, he suggests, is that people don’t have the belief that the current process is going to succeed.  “What we need is to have a vision from the top and we need support for that vision. We need faith in that vision.  And we need to feel wanted to be part of that.”

John believes that we could have the Assembly back up and running, even without an Executive being operational.  “I always thought that was something that should have happened,” he says.  “People say it just becomes a talking shop, but there is nothing wrong about talking if people have an idea of where that is going to take them.  Unfortunately, talking for talking sake, as we all know, is a waste of time.  I think [the re-establishment of the Assembly without the Executive] could be an intermediate stop that could be taken.”

The podcasts are also available on iTunes and Spotify.

Holywell Trust receives support for the Forward Together Podcast through the Media Grant Scheme and Core Funding Programme of Community Relations Council and Good Relations Core Funding Programme.