religious tradition

If there's one thing reading church history has shown me, it's that we're swimming (or drowning) in 2,000+ years of religious traditions that we've been told are a necessary to stay in a good place or in good standing with God. But the problem of religious tradition has been around longer than that. Jesus confronted this issue with religious Pharisees of his day when they question why his followers didn't observe their religious traditions:

"Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.' He answered them, 'And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?'" (Matthew 15:1-3)

What are some of the religious traditions we've inherited from church history that organized religion has told us are necessary to keep God happy with us, but are nothing more than empty obligations to a system of conformity? Let's talk...

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Prophecy is prevalent in all major religions. Someone always seems to have a phone line right up to the Big Guy. Is prophecy real? When does it get dangerous? How does one become a prophet?

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Katie Dooley  00:09

Hello again

Preston Meyer  00:17

man, today's gonna be good.

Katie Dooley  00:19

I feel like a prophecy is being fulfilled. Or at least appointment on the calendar

Preston Meyer  00:27

for sure. Welcome everybody to the holy watermelon

00:32

podcast.

Preston Meyer  00:35

Yeah, so we're going to talk a little bit about prophecy today. And I was thinking about Nostradamus, he is, thanks to History Channel. He's kind of the big profit that's not really tied to any specific religion, as far as popular culture presents really well,

Katie Dooley  00:55

right? He's just kind of this guy who predicts things. Yeah,

Preston Meyer  00:58

I mean, he was a Christian, his family, I was actually Jewish only a couple of generations before him. He lived about 500 years ago. 1500s was his time. And super popular guy, he wrote a book called The prophecies. You know, his name isn't. Nostradamus,

Katie Dooley  01:19

I saw that in our research and in researching this episode, yeah.

Preston Meyer  01:24

Michelle did not Nostradamus that, basically Michael of Our Lady, which is, you know, Nostradamus sounds way

Katie Dooley  01:35

more badass here. Also a little bit like a hippopotamus a little bit, a little bit.

Preston Meyer  01:39

But his hugely popular book, the prophecies, none of it is originally is. We like to give Nostradamus credit as a culture for being this great prophet who saw these things coming? None of the prophecies in his book, were originally his. He repeated a bunch from the Bible, he straight up plagiarized from several other sources. And he also actively denied being a prophet. Aren't

Katie Dooley  02:14

they so vague that it could apply to anything?

Preston Meyer  02:19

Many of them are vague that yeah, they could apply to anything. And we also have a problem with people who want to say Nostradamus was a prophet, translating his works from Old French to too common today English, and deliberately Miss translating them so that they'll line up better with specific events. What happened? Yeah. But Nostradamus, not a prophet, not even a little bit, just a skilled writer. He wrote almanacs and things like that. And then he was just like, and here's a bunch of prophecies that are known to people who read Latin, but my French audience doesn't read Latin, so they're gonna like this book.

Katie Dooley  03:03

So then if Nostradamus wasn't a prophet, what is a prophet Preston?

Preston Meyer  03:08

A prophet is, broadly speaking, if you want to generalize it across multiple religious traditions, A prophet is a person who serves as a mouthpiece for divinity or supernatural force on Oracle is a pretty fair word that's basically the same thing a mouthpiece for a god. So that's fairly distinct from say, a seer, or an agar who is able to read things, things or omens. Like sometimes you'll have an agar who reads entrails or tea leaves or just I don't think an auger is a fair title for one who reads the stars, that's more of a seer Nan agar. We've got a whole bunch of people who have found out a whole lot of different ways that they can read things in the universe,

Katie Dooley  04:07

medium psychics, not that this, that's not this episode. But you're right. There's a lot of titles for people who see things that have yet to happen, right,

Preston Meyer  04:15

and they can do it with a sort of reliability, that's just enough to get people to buy into it.

Katie Dooley  04:24

In my research, so there's prophets and prophecy, and then there's prophesizing, which is a little more you don't need to be a prophet to prophesize in my understanding is that that as in God is speaking to you and telling you what to do with you in within your personal relationship with God, this is very much like a Christian fundamentalist term.

Preston Meyer  04:46

So there's, I like to distinguish big P and little P profits.

Katie Dooley  04:52

Okay. Like

Preston Meyer  04:56

if you are prophesying then that makes you a profit, little p, if you have any official office or title as profit, that would be the big P profit. And so profits can be seen, whether that's their title or not, in every religious tradition and culture on this planet, throughout history, absolutely. Which is actually kind of nifty that we are able to see these parallels around the world without any worry about cultural lines.

Katie Dooley  05:34

I mean, it's, it makes sense in a way that, you know, how else does a religion start? Unless God is talking in the search of supernatural power talking to someone, then you just have atheists? Right? If there's not, whether that's God speaks to everyone, or God speaks through one or two people, there needs to be some connection. Someone has to believe God's speaking to them or when happen, right?

Preston Meyer  05:59

That's a reasonably popular model for religious development,

Katie Dooley  06:04

I guess you get the odd ones. But you will talk about Buddhist prophets as well, where I guess you're working to obtain some level of enlightenment, but and there isn't, I guess, I mean, depends on the model of Buddhism, you look I was gonna say, but there isn't a god and Buddhism. But depending on which one you follow, then Buddha is

Preston Meyer  06:25

what? It all depends on how you define God. Because we've had this argument before to

Katie Dooley  06:31

go back to our previous episode.

Preston Meyer  06:34

So there are some religious traditions that aren't started off by somebody claiming prophecy. If you are describing the idea of a god in the sky, you don't have to speak to him to say to your kids, there's somebody up there who is giving us the lightning in the rain, fair. But at some point, somebody will claim to communicate with that God,

Katie Dooley  06:58

I think so because it comes down to the How do you know it's up there? Exactly. And I don't want to say it's easy to say, but it's, it's a pretty good default to go to well, God told me or God told this person or whatever.

Preston Meyer  07:09

Yeah, Oracle's and prophets tend to speak as though they are the mouth of God, or the God that they serve. For example, the the oracles of Apollo way back in ancient Greece would speak as though their words had come originally from Apollo and they would quote him and speak as though they were him. So it's pretty standard for the way we look at prophets in the Hebrew Bible and the Christian New Testament as well.

Katie Dooley  07:43

All right, so we've all been to notes on property. How do we do want to break down by religion first, what do you think? Are some of my just Mullings?

Preston Meyer  07:52

Let's go through your Mullings. Let's see what what are your thoughts here? Oh, as an atheist

Katie Dooley  07:57

as an atheist? Well, let's start on the scroll down on the notes a bit. I I titled this section profits in the wild. And I'm sure everyone if you live in a major city and have ever taken public transport, you've come across one of these people who claims that God is speaking to them. And I distinctly remember one day, going to university this man on the bus is saying that he had seen the start a time and the end of time and knew how was all going to end and that God was speaking to him and everyone like all the ladies were clutching their bags a little closer or putting them on the seat so he wouldn't sit next to them. And like my notes, I say, but if he was in a suit at a pulpit on a Sunday morning, people would be like, Oh my God, right? So this line between mental illness and being a prophet and we're going to do an exorcism episode around Halloween, but same thing or the difference between are they piss possessed by the devil or mentally ill? Are you profit? Are you mentally ill? And is that like, basically, based on what you wear and what your job title is? Or?

Preston Meyer  09:08

So anytime the audience doesn't want to hear what they're hearing? Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be easy to write it off as this person's probably mentally ill. And apart from that, any prophecy it can only be judged on whether or not it comes true. And I guess another roundabout angle at that would be you can also judge a prophecy based on how detailed it is. And like if it's deliberately going to be obvious that it's self fulfilling, or deliberately so vague that it's going to happen no matter what at some point, and you can tell in advance then That's not terribly impressive because he

Katie Dooley  10:01

even made obviously as outsiders. It's easier. But we see all these doomsday predictions that have yet to come true. So often the followers still believe the person is a prophet and that they're correct. They were just there was a miscalculation.

Preston Meyer  10:20

Yeah, I mean, people, people appreciate when somebody admits that they were wrong. And they can say, oh, no, I miscalculated this thing. That I mean, it's weak, but I get why people who really want to believe and choose to believe can accept that as something to not undermine their belief. But I don't love it. You know?

Katie Dooley  10:46

I don't I can't think off the top of my head because I'm just literally having these thoughts. Now, as we're recording. You know, some of these doomsday cults have, like multiple times, like it's like, Okay, once fine, but there's people who've been predicting the end of the world for decades, and they're their followers just to like, yeah. So let me once shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on you. Fool me three times. Shame on you.

Preston Meyer  11:16

Shame on me. Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, it's, it's a weird thing. Usually, when somebody gives out a whole bunch of different predictions. It's more of, hey, I'm studying the Scripture. And these clues are here. And this is here. It's all written down. Why can't you see it? They don't usually do the whole profit thing. It's more of a I'm smarter than you. Which is obviously annoying. I'm sure there's exceptions to that, but none are coming to mind right now. Okay. But we we've definitely got loads of people running around saying, hey, the end of the world, isn't i because God told me and hasn't happened yet. Now,

Katie Dooley  12:16

I think there was one recently that came in lens that some cult somewhere was preparing for.

Preston Meyer  12:22

Yeah, I remember in 2011 There was one right there was what wasn't the big one. But there was a reason that we popular fella who decided there's this time in May in 2011, where the world's going to end and that didn't happen. And then he's like, Oh, no, sorry, I was wrong. It's gonna be in October. Oh,

Katie Dooley  12:42

I do remember that October came and went. And here we are. With someone. I'm thinking oh, that was like in December to the Mayan calendar. Oh, yeah. The

Preston Meyer  12:49

Mayan calendar that got a lot of people all stressed out there. I don't. I looked into it. And there's not like any solid prophecy. Yeah, the world's gonna end it's just the calendar did end and a lot of people like well, a calendar this long. Having an endpoint means the end of the world sauce.

Katie Dooley  13:09

So I don't even remember what was it like December 21 2008, or something? That's never my brain. I don't remember the end of the Mayan calendar. But

Preston Meyer  13:16

I'm pretty sure my calendar is 2012 as a trainee.

Katie Dooley  13:19

I don't remember the date. Anyway, someone will correct. But I remember on that day, that all of a sudden, there's like this really weird noise in my neighborhood. Like this whooshing noise It was like it was super loud. And like I was still in high school, like I was still living at home and most of my friends were still living at home with their parents, I say. And so like everyone could hear it like for blocks where I was like, what is happening? And there is a utility station across from the carwash. You know what I'm talking about? I got pretty good idea. Yeah. carwash and junior high. Yeah. And it had like, over pressurize. So it was like releasing pressure. And the immediate neighborhood had to be evacuated. And we could hear it all the way. Like my parents are by the save on. I'd like try not to explain to President where this is without Daxing my parents were ready to save on and they we could hear it. Again, all my friends were like What is and we all that was the end of the world obviously. Because really, what is this noise? And we've lived there for decades and never heard it before. Never heard that sentence. Right? So anyway, that's

Preston Meyer  14:38

crazy. That's I like it.

Katie Dooley  14:42

I will say as an atheist who, you know, clearly I don't believe anyone is a prophet. I actually really appreciate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints approach to prophecy, and I forget where I read it somewhere but basically, they have prayed but it's to this day the leader of the church of the prophet speaks to get got a phone phone line to God, I presume in his office and their perspective on it and jump if I'm jumping if I'm wrong, but you didn't correct my notes, I assume I'm do it Okay, is that if God spoke to us 2000 years ago, we should still have the ability to speak to him. Now. He wasn't all of a sudden, like peace out.

15:22

But yeah,

Katie Dooley  15:23

I can't I cannot speak to humans anymore. I've spent all this time putting you together and by. And so I'm like, okay, yeah. If you believe that. All these Old Testament New Testament prophets existed and they received revelation from God, then, yeah. Logic would follow that we could still receive prophecy and revelation from God. But there's definitely there's definitely Christian groups that don't think that.

Preston Meyer  15:50

Yeah, is Christianity, broadly speaking, has a weird relationship with the idea of prophecy, an awful lot of Christians reject the idea that there's any way to hear from God outside of reading the Bible, which, of course, is flawed in that you've limited this person that you viewed to be all powerful to the words that have been written down and edited centuries ago. In a book that isn't even complete anyway.

Katie Dooley  16:23

I mean, it's still getting rewritten, right? There's still new versions popping up. So

Preston Meyer  16:27

yeah, I wouldn't say rewritten the best word. But I mean, it does go through an editorial process that we were talking about in our bonus episode was rewritten. It does go through an editorial process before publication every single time. So yeah, a little bit rewritten. And so for example, you've got the the Pentecostals are also pretty big fans of prophecy, because prophecy is promised in the New Testament. Paul talks about how as long as there are believers that will, there will be prophecy among them. And so Protestants and other super charismatic Christian churches are definitely big into that idea that you can receive revelation, direct communication with God. And then some of the older traditions that are still with us from Christianity tend to be a little bit more. You know, the guy in charge, like the Pope, for example, you can receive some revelation to guide the church. But there isn't big revelations of old hidden things or hidden things to come so much anymore. Which I think is actually really interesting. There was about 500 years ago, in the Catholic Church, there was the prophecy of the Pope's, I was it's only about 400 years ago, sorry. It was first published in 1595 by a Benedictine monk named Arnold weon. He attributed this prophecy to St. Malikai, 12th century Archbishop, and it lists the last 112 Pope's it says, These are the last 112 There's not going to be more after this. So the end of the 16th century, this is kind of a big deal. People start counting down to the end of the Pope's. And it's kind of interesting. And remember, this is meant to have been written 400 years before it was published. But it's kind of interesting. It starts with Silverstein, the second and it is completely accurate. And describes correctly all of the Pope's up until just before it was published, then it stops being accurate, weird. Which means that it's very, very likely

19:12

that it was written 400 years before, right?

Preston Meyer  19:15

It's super suspicious. What's interesting though, is that 111 was Benedict the 16th. And then before it goes on to 112 There's this weird little paragraph, just just a short little note. And then it goes on to Peter the Roman. And so because St. Francis or sorry, Pope Francis isn't peter the roman as far as we can tell based on his name or where he's from

Katie Dooley  19:47

that's gonna say his name a little bit round.

Preston Meyer  19:50

There's a lot of people that like to argue that in this list that's called the last 112 Pope's there's space for who knows how many In between 111 and the last, and it's because people are desperate that this list is actually authentic prophecy. But I mean, there's loads of evidence that it's what counts is a forgery being a product of when it was published and not 400 years earlier.

20:25

Wow, it's so accurate. Wow. Yeah.

Preston Meyer  20:28

At the time it was published. People should have recognized Hey, yeah, it's super precise and accurate up to this point. And then is vague and cryptic leading forward. When it was mostly written 400 years before? It's just kind of weird. Yeah, it's fun. It's kind of it's it's like the prophecy that people within the Catholic world think about, as far as recent dish prophecies, interesting. And yeah, it's definitely a forgery. It's not authentic revelation.

Katie Dooley  21:06

Maybe that's a good segue. How do you know when something's authentic Revelation?

Preston Meyer  21:09

In the moment, it's almost impossible unless, theoretically, there's something in your gut that says, Yes, this is right. And even then, I mean, we've talked about the the tricky nature of belief and knowledge. How do you even know that that feeling in your gut means anything? You have to wait and see when that prophecy is fulfilled? To know that it was a proper prophecy, and judge it based on its merit as a self fulfilling prophecy or a guaranteed eventuality?

Katie Dooley  21:39

I really want to sing a line from Book of Mormon, go for it in 1970, God changed his mind about black people, black people.

Preston Meyer  21:50

Yeah, what a great musical.

21:52

And what a great process.

Preston Meyer  21:55

The the one thing that I love about the humor of that show is that it's all just about the two teachers, the missionaries, they were inept from the beginning and didn't know anything. So the presentation of what the church does believe is it's what is presented to be, and not necessarily a matter of historic fact. But it was an enjoyable show anyway. So prophecy is is all over the place, I really like the, the way we see profits presented in the Hebrew Bible, which is, of course, the familiar zone that we deal with in the West. And so they were usually men who served as permanent fixtures in royal courts, though there were a few that were not. And this is basically paralleled around the world, every culture that has a king or an emperor or a chieftain had somebody in his close circle that was basically responsible for reading omens and double checking the decisions of the chieftain or emperor or king or whatever, to make sure that it wasn't going to end in a catastrophic failure, that would end the nation. And sometimes that meant reading entrails. And sometimes it meant just popping off into the corner and praying and seeing what happens, and anywhere in between, depending on the culture and the traditional practices of that group. But what they all had in common is that they proclaimed a message to the people. Typically, in the end, in the Hebrew setting that message was if you guys don't stop doing these stupid things, you will be destroyed. Yeah, yeah. And Israel has a long history of suffering some wicked destructions. Yeah. There were a few of the old Hebrew prophets that talked explicitly about a man who had come to preserve the people in some way or another. And if you're a Christian, especially fundamental Christians, you believe that everything of these prophecies refers to the coming of Christ. Yes,

Katie Dooley  24:20

I am. In the documentary, I watched American gospel like it put on our Discord. It's a wild ride. That's what the one group was talking about is that everything in the Bible in the Old Testament, points to Jesus Christ, and if you can't see that you're not a real Christian. He was like every story in the Old Testament. points to the to Jesus. I was like, does it Oh, the

Preston Meyer  24:46

story of Lot and his daughter say does that it does not. Not even a little bit. I didn't think so.

Katie Dooley  24:53

But, however,

Preston Meyer  24:57

to the credit that may or may not Due to the person who said that the story might point to the need for a Savior with some efficacy. Okay.

Katie Dooley  25:12

I want Yeah, I mean, a lot needs intervention. A lot of things an adult. Yeah.

Preston Meyer  25:24

Yeah. It's, it's tricky. But I mean, if you genuinely believe that everything in the Bible points to Jesus, you'll find a way to connect it. Even if it's as simple as here's a, here's some people that need Jesus.

25:38

You'll figure out Jesus.

Preston Meyer  25:42

So, it's, it's not unfair, but I don't like to make that generalization, the story of Jonah and the whale. If it was written more recently, the story would have started once upon a time, the story of Jonah and the whale is fiction. Absolutely. It was never meant to be read as a historical story about a real prophet. Everything about the story is, like, obviously counterintuitive to anybody's experience in Israel, where if you pay attention, the story, everybody's righteous, and does what God says when they hear they hear the message, except for the guy who's supposed to be spreading that message. Jonah hears, hey, you need to go visit these people. And he says, hell no, I'm going the other way. The people in the boat. They're like, Hey, God has a message for us, and you are a problem to us. We're going to do what's right and get you out of this boat so that you can go into your job. And then Jonah finally gets to the city, and they repent. The city being Nineveh in Babylon, which everybody in Israel is like, no, those people are evil. And in the story is like, oh, yeah, no, we're good now. It's like, obviously, a fiction. But, you know,

Katie Dooley  27:14

we need to do an episode on biblical literalism. It was Yeah, I think you're right. It was requested to sort of, well, let's after

Preston Meyer  27:27

the profits are interesting. You've got prophets like Isaiah, and Jeremiah, these were quarterly profits, they served the king to let him know what he needed to do in any situation where he would ask. And so that's, that's pretty standard around the world. Like I said, before,

Katie Dooley  27:47

we should move on to the New Testament. Yeah. So

Preston Meyer  27:50

Jesus is kind of the central figure of the New Testament, even though he's only actually present for one narrative told four different times. And he's a lot more than a prophet in Christianity, but he does do some prophesying. And most of it pretty vague. He does specifically promise that the temple will be destroyed soon. And while he's also talking about his own body that's about to be destroyed. The Temple in Jerusalem is seen as another fulfillment of that prophecy because it was destroyed about 40 years later. Or 30 years later. Now, the timeline is going fuzzy on me, but that's okay. Shortly after shorts was crazy generation and a half two generations later, which in a grand scheme of than 2000 year old religion, it's not that much, right. And you've also got Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, an angel appears to him and broadly speaking, this fits into prophecy if you are able to speak with divine beings including angels so it Mary

Katie Dooley  29:03

have been a prophet or because she was the lady show some aloud.

Preston Meyer  29:08

Here's Mary has a very special position in Christian in some parts of Christianity,

Katie Dooley  29:16

the reality of Zechariah talk. Yeah, we can get back to Mary sorry. And

Preston Meyer  29:21

they're not wildly different in their experiences. And I'm even Joseph her husband had an angel appeared to him and say, Hey, this What's up? Mary's experiences a little bit more intense.

Katie Dooley  29:35

Yeah. She got to find spunked.

Preston Meyer  29:41

I mean, I don't know the the exact operation of how things happen, but she became pregnant in a way that as far as I know, there's one way people get pregnant. But turns out apps Two Minutes is not 100% effective.

Katie Dooley  30:03

I just think she had the best lie of all of all human history. No, no, I'm a virgin an angel knocked me out

Preston Meyer  30:16

Yeah, that's that's more or less the story.

30:20

I swear

Katie Dooley  30:23

while making shifty eyes just

Preston Meyer  30:25

listing his Joseph's family did not like it one bit No. Otherwise. Right it would have been a lot easier for them to find a place to sleep when I went time to deal with the census and have a place to stay during Passover with family was one usually does.

Katie Dooley  30:45

Well, we'll get to the Nativity episode. But yeah, back to New Testament prophet Paul

Preston Meyer  30:53

is visited by Jesus on the road to Damascus, this council is prophecy. It's one of the more so prophecy depending on how, who you read and how you define things. You've got all kinds of levels of awesomeness of prophecy, and hearing a voice kind of minor, seeing a person and hearing their voice and being able to touch them. opposite end, best possible kind of prophecy level. And Paul, who hated Christians, because they were just the worst kind of why is the word blanking on me. heretics, heretics, Christians are the worst kind of heretics. And then he pulls the one ad and realizes Oh, I shouldn't be killing these heretic Christians because Jesus is real. And is the Son of God and is mighty and divine. So changes his life around because of this revelation that he has. And then you've got John the Revelator, which is, I mean, he is a prophet, he sees and reveals and serves as an Oracle for the divine. And he also, he and Paul warn of false prophets of a couple of different varieties. You've got prophets who do testify of Christ, for their own personal profit, with an F for their own financial gain. That kind of profit. But you've also got false prophets who deny Christ while also performing miracles. And that's also a problem for Christians. Yeah.

Katie Dooley  32:44

We are going to do an entire episode and our next episode is on the revelation. And it's a pretty big deal, because there's entire denominations of Christianity that just love that one book, which

Preston Meyer  32:55

I think is interesting that we'll get into a little bit more. The Revelation of John was widely considered as questionably authentic for a long time among Christians. So

Katie Dooley  33:09

I listened to it while I was working. Yeah, and I'll probably listen to it again. But considering you've like, seen that shitty 70s movie that I showed you. And then there's like the Left Behind series, I was like, so I was like, expecting, you know, obviously, they talk about the beast. I'm like, this isn't nearly as scary as like, these books and movies make it out to be I'm like, oh, no, it was two hours of content. Like, I just thought it'd be a lot more. Spooky. What? Right anyway. But we'll talk about that on our next episode. I don't want to Yeah, give too much away anyway.

Preston Meyer  33:54

What else we got?

Katie Dooley  33:55

I mean, we can move on to Islam, because theirs is an incredibly profit based. Yes. And that's the next chronologically and then we'll talk about Eastern

Preston Meyer  34:09

that even the noise you make for your quotation. So yeah, in Islam, prophecy is hugely important. Muhammad is the final prophet. For most Muslims. There are some Muslim denominations that accept more prophets after him. But that's not typical. But he is he's meant to be the last in the long chain. And they also do respect Jesus as a prophet, not as the Son of God, but as a prophet. Yeah. And there's even stories of Jesus in the Koran. Absolutely. There's even a book in the Quran dedicated to marry as well.

Katie Dooley  34:50

Interesting and in Yeah, but that's a big misconception is that somehow Muslims hate Christians and Christianity don't believe in Jesus say absolute We do write, have stories about it that aren't in the Bible.

Preston Meyer  35:04

I'm reminded of an interview I watched with Reza Aslan, he wrote a book, a great scholarly book on Jesus. Oh, that's on my list to read. Yeah. And he got dragged around so hard in all these interviews with all kinds of people, because he's Muslim writing about Jesus, and all these people who are either Christian or pseudo Christian and be like, Why are you reading about Jesus? If you're not a Christian? A lot

Katie Dooley  35:31

of the theories I saw were like, how can you write about Jesus as a Christian? He's like, because I am a scholar, right? Like, I can I can do this objectively and look at the research. And he does well. And as a Muslim, he believes Jesus existed and was a prophet. It was yes, I'm gonna go roll your eyes out of your head. Watch some of those interviews, because they're like, how can you do this as a Muslim? And he's like, because I'm a fucking scholar. Right? Like, that's like being like, how can you be a nutritionist and be a vegan? It's like, you can still understand the nutritional value of meat. Even if you choose not to eat it. Yeah.

Preston Meyer  36:17

Because I have teeth in a stomach. Thanks. Yeah,

36:19

I have a brain

Katie Dooley  36:21

that I can read about the nutritional value of meat. Like, I just I don't know if that was the best analogy. But yeah, it's like, because the information is out there. And honestly, at this point, 2000 years later, it's all just conjecture. Right? So all the information we have about Jesus is out there in the world. Yep. You want to go and condense that made me come up with some new theories. Anyone fucking do? It doesn't matter what your religion is. Yep. Okay. That's gonna get bowel pressing. You should have brought that up. I'm gonna get off my little soapbox. Step Step. I like I feel like he had another point to make that I just like steamrolled.

Preston Meyer  37:07

Yeah, so back to Islam. So the Quran is revelations received by Mohammed. So he is meant to have received all these revelations primarily through speaking with Gibreel, or the angel Gabriel. And prophecy is kind of the staple that holds the religion together just like it is with Islam or sorry, with, with Israel, the Judaism, with Christianity, we rely on the appearance of Jesus to people Peter receiving revelation for the church, Paul, John, so on. And then we've also got the non western non Abrahamic faiths that are also finding revelation and valuable Zoroastrianism which a lot of people like to point to as kind of the big changing influence on Israel while they were in exile that made their religion what it is today found prophets to be important, particularly Zarathustra, who, of course, is one of those fellows who likes to go into trances, which is terrible, not terribly uncommon for prophets around the world, especially those who like to use psychotropic assistance. Yep. And, I mean, I don't have any personal experience with psychotropic substances. But from what I've heard, that's a great way to become more empathetic with the world at large, I guess, and to feel closer to God, I guess, is the way it's described by an awful lot of people. Whatever their definition of God is that it seems to work. What else we got on our list? I know you did some research. I

Katie Dooley  39:10

was just gonna end that Zarathustra. So he's the founder. Isn't he? He wrote his the sacred writing. So Astron NISM. The Avesta is is a revelation from Him. So inspired writings, just like Buddhism from the Buddha. Which there's our segue. I

Preston Meyer  39:32

like it. So Buddha's an interesting example that we have an awful lot of these people who are either like, okay, families or noble families who go and serve in the king's court as prophets. And occasionally you'll have real humble folks who come up to bring messages to the kings court. And Siddhartha Gautama does is kind of the opposite. He grew up in a royal court, and then said Peace, by

40:06

the way, are you kidding me?

Preston Meyer  40:09

He left the royal court to go and experience life and recognize the depth of the things. He only seen surface level after escaping for one night and became a prophet almost in exile. I don't think that's a perfectly fair label on there, but I'm gonna use it anyway.

40:30

Okay.

Preston Meyer  40:33

So, I think it's novel that he is different in that way.

Katie Dooley  40:36

I think it's great. Girl Siddhartha right.

Preston Meyer  40:42

And we talked a little bit about one of his cool prophecies back when we were talking about this, the Buddha, the chubby Buddha, the Maitreya Buddha, and if you're comfortable with wild mispronunciations of names, the body Buddha, the Buddha, I Buddha, the chubby Laughing Buddha,

Katie Dooley  41:03

so that is his reincarnation that is supposed to happen sometime sometime.

Preston Meyer  41:07

We don't know when supposed to be after the World forgets Buddhism, which I mean. It's meant to be like, if the whole world forgets the correct Buddhism, or Buddhism altogether, one or the other. Then Maitreya, Buddha will come and restore it. Like don't forget

Katie Dooley  41:29

me. Yeah,

41:32

Green Giant.

Katie Dooley  41:36

I didn't find any revelation in Hinduism, but I didn't do a ton of digging.

Preston Meyer  41:40

So Hinduism, you've got the Vedas, and we don't have a lot of solid information about where the Vedas really came from who specifically wrote them or anything like that?

Katie Dooley  41:56

No, they come from God, the gods from

Preston Meyer  42:00

like, even the way that we have the Vedas. I mean, we have them through the people of India. Oh, yeah, absolutely. them from speeding Aryans, who probably did originate the Vedic religion. But we don't have a lot of information there. No.

Katie Dooley  42:20

Yeah. We're just totally came from Brahmins mouth.

Preston Meyer  42:24

Right. And so in, in day to day Hinduism, there isn't a lot of in mainstream Hinduism, there isn't a lot of prophetic figures, publicly, but there are plenty of groups that have shown up where a person shows up and he gets his charisma and

Katie Dooley  42:43

some that are pretty charismatic, I guess is the best way, though, even then the the gurus I can think of that have started, you know, we talked about Bhagwan in our cults episode, which is a Hindu cult. He didn't talk about prophecy. He was just sort of, again, this charismatic leader that people liked the way he presented his branch of Hinduism, but I don't think he had any prophecies, specifically, just a very communal

Preston Meyer  43:15

lifestyle, presented a way to live that worked out. But yeah, I

Katie Dooley  43:19

don't think he had any prophecy that people thought it was new and exciting. He was just happy. Yeah, exactly how he presented

Preston Meyer  43:30

the argument with the tricky thing is define defining the difference between inspiration and revelation. A loads would argue that he was inspired to start all this up. But I guess it depends on how you define inspired. But yeah, it didn't claim revelation.

Katie Dooley  43:52

We actually we skipped over it. The plane I started laughing at do we want to talk about what Yeah, can I ask my question? We're kind of we're sorry, we're kind of jumping back. But modern prophecy. I made a note of what does it mean to be filled with the Spirit. We see this a lot, obviously, being a Western Christian country, being filled with the Holy Spirit. And this is kind of, like Preston said, the Pentecostal having a close personal relationship with God, or God speaks to constantly have maybe we don't see it as you being a prophet, but God is speaking to you. So that was my question. What does it mean to be filled with the Holy Spirit?

Preston Meyer  44:35

So just as Christianity is wickedly diverse spectrum, there's an awful lot of different thoughts on what that means for some people. Can you even say that you're not filled with the Spirit if you're not rolling on the ground, just kind of wigging out. I mean, there's an all Have a lot of people that look like dementia patients when they're trying to show off that they've got the Spirit in them. And some people look like they're suffering from epilepsy. And other people are a lot more dignified and their behavior I guess. I mean,

Katie Dooley  45:16

you see people sobbing. Yeah. Again, if you're a Pentecostal, you speak in tongues. And then some people just like feel the spirit. And some

Preston Meyer  45:24

people just feel comfort and feel reassurance of truth and you're wanting to hold my hand. That is, yeah.

Katie Dooley  45:31

Do you feel the spirit in this room?

Preston Meyer  45:33

I feel love. And for a lot of people that's that's how they recognize that the spirit is there. Because we've been friends for a while. I feel loved when I'm here.

Katie Dooley  45:45

And I just made them hold my hand. I didn't hurt yeah, atheists don't burn, right? Yeah, just everyone knows

Preston Meyer  45:54

severe. So what it means to feel, nor to be filled with the Spirit. seems to vary a lot from person to person. But it's, it seems to me that it's a lot more useful. If it's reassuring ideas, and divine truths, then if it's causing you to roll around in a way that might cause you an injury or, or cause somebody to think less of you or your dignity. Maybe interesting.

Katie Dooley  46:28

We'll have to talk about Glock Glock gloss or gloss. Aliah are some I forget what the technical term for speaking in tongues is. There's a real okay, I'm good.

Preston Meyer  46:39

Okay. Oh, religiously? We just call it speaking in tongues. But no, there's a name for it. Not in my circles where I wander around but I believe you.

Katie Dooley  46:51

glossolalia the phenomenon of speaking in an unknown language especially in realistic religious worship glossolalia Okay, that's your Word of the Day.

Preston Meyer  47:05

That word is a mouthful. GloZell Ali

Katie Dooley  47:14

are bad people Preston.

Preston Meyer  47:18

just reminded me of the word eyeball phobia. It's a palindrome it's phobia. With phobia spelled backwards on the front of what is the phobia of it. It is the fear the irrational fear of palindromes are terrible. Some people who name them are just

Katie Dooley  47:39

there's a few of them that are just ridiculous.

Preston Meyer  47:41

Triscuit DECA phobia is kind of cool. It's the fear of the number 13. But it sounds way cooler than it is. It makes it sound like it's a legitimate thing to be properly afraid of. And if you're actually afraid of the number 13 You do have some sort of emotional problems that you probably need to see a professional for.

Katie Dooley  48:07

You're just dropping bombs.

48:12

So any final thoughts on prophecy?

Katie Dooley  48:15

The prophets? What do our listeners need to know? Be?

48:20

Be wary of false prophets

Preston Meyer  48:23

be wary of profits in general, okay. Cuz the reality is that nine times out of 10 You're gonna be able to prove easily with real investigation that there are false prophets. And I mean, I know that as an atheist, you don't believe there's any profits and that's Yeah, I'm

Katie Dooley  48:43

good. I'm already guarded. my loins are girded.

Preston Meyer  48:46

Right. And that's realistically a pretty safe position to stand in for speaking for your own safety. Like, you're not gonna be brought in by any crazy folks that are looking to take advantage with their prophecies. So it's, I think it's interesting to look at the things that people are prophesied. It's in my religious tradition, there's no hard fast rule that says nobody outside of our faith can receive prophecy. And for some people, that's not the way they see it. And that's, that's fine, I guess. But prophecy in general is a tricky thing. Something

Katie Dooley  49:33

tricky in religion, so

Preston Meyer  49:36

but if you're gonna predict anything, that's can be problematic, but prophecy can also be simply directing immediate action. And usually, that's kind of the purpose when you see oracles or augers or witch doctors in a royal court. That They're there to give that guidance and read omens when the reading omens bit sounds awfully tricky. It's interesting that in Judaism, divination is actually forbidden. You can't be casting bones and reading them or I'll throw

Katie Dooley  50:15

around cards. That's yeah, that's super frowned upon. We're gonna cover that. Yeah. So to Halloween, we have a whole spooky lineup for you.

Preston Meyer  50:23

It'll be some good fun. Yeah. So it's interesting that the way they deal with prophecy is deliberately don't rely on these physical physical objects that obviously are thrown by chance, and communicate with what feels right. In most cases, receiving dreams is common enough within the Hebrew tradition, a lot more with Northern Israel than southern Judah. Which I think is a kind of a weird distinction that ended up being a thing that we noticed. And guiding present action, based on what you see the need is makes an awful lot of sense. Whether that did in fact, come from a God or not. That kind of prophecy tends to be a lot more productive. But yeah, if somebody is trying to tell you, hey, you need to buy.

Katie Dooley  51:21

No, no, you need to sell all your stuff. Enjoy

Preston Meyer  51:24

me sell all your stuff, and give all of your money to this thing that isn't going to do you any good because the end of the world is coming. That is a scam 100% of the time. Prophecy is all right. I think it's cool, but like to look into it and study and see what things people are prophesied. I think it's nifty, but it's not a thing that you need to be stressing out about. Like if you go through your day to day life worried about a prophecy you heard?

Katie Dooley  51:57

Don't unless you're Harry Potter in the seventh book of the series. You don't need to worry about it.

Preston Meyer  52:04

Sure, but none of our listeners are the fictional character Harry Potter.

Katie Dooley  52:11

Harry Potter if you're listening please join our Discord.

Preston Meyer  52:17

Yeah, sure when I like it, I like it. Is that about it for subject to prophecy?

Katie Dooley  52:26

I think so. So we gotta we gotta do some sales now. Yeah, we

Preston Meyer  52:31

do. We would love to have you help support our podcast, keep it going for years to come. Patreon will help us make that possible. And we've also got our merch store Where's merch

Katie Dooley  52:44

store? Our merch store is Spreadshirt you can just search for Holly watermelon. And you can find all of those links and even better conversations on our Discord. All of those links will be in the description box. So we hope to see you on our Discord to continue this conversation. Peace be with you. 

"Well, we've always done it this way." This explanation can be frustrating. This dynamic between how it was done before and how it's done now occurs a lot in religion. And frankly, the church has often done a poor job communicating WHY things are done a certain way. Nowhere is this more evident than the sacrament of Holy Communion. For two thousand years, the church has understood Holy Communion as essential to our faith and the centerpiece of worship. But WHY? In this sermon, Rev. Stephen Lohoefer shares the WHY behind Holy Communion.