roman baths

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report Survey - https://www.rubbercheese.com/visitor-attraction-website-report-2023

Andy Povey, Managing Director UK & Ireland for Convious

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/andy-povey

Convious: https://www.convious.com/

Andy Povey Twitter: https://twitter.com/MrTicketeer

Andy Povey LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/

Andy Povey joined Convious in November 2021 as managing director for UK and Ireland. 

Andy has worked in the attractions industry since the early nineties when he began as a ride operator at Chessington World of Adventures. He stayed with the Tussaud’s company and later Merlin Entertainments for another 18 years, working in a variety of operational jobs at Rock Circus, Madame Tussauds, and central support, where he was responsible for the group’s ticketing systems. After Merlin, he worked for Gateway Ticketing Systems for ten years, opening and then overseeing their UK operation, before transferring his experience to the Convious team. Outside work, Andy enjoys visiting attractions of all shapes and sizes with his family.

Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/simon-addison

Roman Baths: https://www.romanbaths.co.uk/

Simon Addison Twitter: https://twitter.com/addisonsimon

Simon Addison LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonaddison/

Simon Addison is the Business Manager, Roman Baths and Pump Room, Bath, and heads the finance and business planning functions at the Roman Baths. He is responsible for business analysis, pricing strategy and leads the benchmarking work.

Simon started his career in the financial services industry, where he qualified as a chartered management accountant with the Bank of New York. He moved to the National Trust in 2012, where he held roles in the finance team. Latterly he was responsible for the Trust’s finances in Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Simon joined the senior leadership team at the Roman Baths in 2017.

Simon joined the Board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions in May 2022.

Dominic Jones, CEO of The Mary Rose Museum, and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard

Skip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jones

The Mary Rose: https://maryrose.org/

Portsmouth Historic Dockyard: https://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/

Dominic Jones Twitter: https://twitter.com/DominicJonesUK

Dominic Jones LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/

Dominic Jones was recruited to the Mary Rose in 2019 ago as Chief Operating Officer, and became CEO in 2021.  He brings an excellent background in commercial visitor attractions (Disney, Merlin) and creative visitor experience development.

During his time at the Mary Rose, he has already driven an excellent commercial and operational performance and worked closely with previous Chief Executive to create the new Portsmouth Historic Dockyard joint venture with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which launched successfully in August 2020. 

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. 

Today's episode is a little bit different. I speak to Dominic Jones, CEO of the Mary Rose Museum and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths and Andy Povey, Managing Director, UK and Ireland of Convious. Dom, Simon and Andy share with you the merits of taking part in the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Survey. 

We talk about how the report has shaped their digital strategies and what that's delivered to their attractions in terms of increased revenue and improved customer experience. 

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: So I've got Dominic Jones, Simon Addison and Andy Povey here. All past guests, all good friends. We don't need to do icebreakers here because we all know each other pretty well now. But we are going to do a little mini round of unpopular opinions again, because, let's face it, that's why people listen to this podcast. Dominic, I'm going to start with you. 

Dominic Jones: Why would you start with me? That's so unfair. It's obvious that Simon is your favourite. We can know this is how it works with Bath. He gets all of the good stuff and you come to Dominic first. I used my best unpopular opinion last time when I talked about not mentioning the weather. And I always think my unpopular opinion should be work related. So this one is an interesting one and I wonder whether you will disagree with me, let alone Simon and Andy. But I think when doing discounting, online or in person in our industry. You shouldn’t use percentages, and you should use physical pounds, because I think people who use percentages can really confuse people. And also, I just think it's bad form. 

Kelly Molson: I should throw this one over to Andy, really, because he's pricing expert man, isn't he?

Andy Povey: I go that far, Kelly. I actually agree with Dominic, but from a geeky technical perspective.

Dominic Jones: Love Andy, always loved Andy. You know what, he's one of those guests that you just love. 

Simon Addison: Dom, is this just an unpopular opinion because you just can't do percentages, you just want to know how many pounds to take off. Is that what it is? 

Kelly Molson: Percentages are hard. We're not all like numbers people like you, Simon. 

Dominic Jones: We're not all born with a calculator. The other thing is that actually, the great British public, our international public, they don't want to be working out. They want to enjoy the day outside. They want to enjoy the Roman Baths, they don't want to be sitting there working out, “What these percentages off mean?”

Simon Addison: Dom, you not listen to my podcast on pricing strategy.  We don't discount. 

Andy Povey: But that was going to be my point. 

Simon Addison: Yeah, we should be confident enough to the quality of our own products, Dom. That will be my unpopular opinion. We shouldn't discount as an industry, but that's not what I've prepared. 

Andy Povey: Discounting just seems like a really easy, quick thing for marketeer to do when they're desperate. And I think we should be a little bit more confident about what we're doing and actually use better tools and better ways of communicating the value of what it is that the attraction is doing. So slightly more unpopular, I suppose, Dom, would be let's not do discounts at all. Doesn’t matter weather it’s 4 pounds or percentages or whatever, then just don’t do it.

Kelly Molson: So, I’m just gonna come at this from a car boot perspective, which I have to skip randomly. But I love a little bargain. I went to a car boot sale. I'm renovating a cottage in North Norfolk at the moment and I'm trying to furnish it with as much second hand things as possible. So car boot sales are my friend right now, and if I had gone up to the stall and been like, "What's your best price on this?". And they said, "You can have 10% off", I'd have been like, "But what does that mean? It's 05:00 in the morning and my brain can’t work this out". But two pounds is yes. 

Dominic Jones: And it works. And also, there's an element of, you do need to put discounting in, because you've got to look at reaching different audiences. You’ve got people like Kelly who want to bargain. So you need to put out a decoy pricing in. So they think, "Oh, I'm not paying that for tickets, but I got 2 pounds off, aren't I lucky? I like that.” The problem with percentages is it's people trying to be too clever and it's marketeers trying to be a little bit too clever. And I've never liked it. It’s not as bad as the weather. I hate the weather being used as an excuse, but my second one is using percentages in discounting.

Kelly Molson: Okay. I'm glad that you changed that quickly to discounting and not marketing because there's a lot of percentages in my report, which we'll discuss later. Right, Simon, moving on to you. 

Simon Addison: Yeah, okay. It's nothing to do with work. Camping is not a holiday. There's no way that camping is a holiday. But I love the outdoors. We're going on holiday to Pembrokeshire in a couple of months, we'll be outside most of every day. We will walk in the cross paths in whatever the weather. But at the end of the day, we got a little cottage that we are renting to come back to for a shower that haven’t got to queue for. We're not sharing a toilet block like camping, washing up, cooking, they're disproportionately hard work, and that's assuming it's sunny. If it rains, it's just miserable. 

Simon Addison: We can go out and get wet and we don't have to worry about whether we're ever going to get dry for the rest of the week in a tent. The kids will wake up. I haven't finished yet. Kelly. In a tent, they'll wake up at five in the morning when it gets light, and that means just the suffering of the holidays extended over an even longer day. And worst of all, the red wine is too cold and the white wine is too warm. Just miserable. 

Dominic Jones: Do you not have a fridge when you do camping? 

Simon Addison:  Dom, I don't camp. You might have got that from there. 

Dominic Jones: I go camping. I have a fridge. I have a blow up tent. I have all the cons. 

Kelly Molson: Do you take your bed like the glastonbury dude? 

Dominic Jones: Well, I try and turn up late to someone else that can turn it all up, but it's very nice. 

Kelly Molson: Simon, I'm with you on this. I love the outdoors. I'm a big nature girl, but camping is a no no for me. It is miserable. Even glamping. I went glamping on a friend's hen doo once and even that was just a step too far for me. Everything was grubby. It rained, everything was then damp. Everything was damp. Like, everything was damp. It was horrible. Cottage all the way. Hello. I've got one in North Norfolk coming up, available for rent in September. If you're interested in a holiday in beautiful North Norfolk.

Dominic Jones: You should go to car boot sales. I believe they've got some great deals at the moment. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. They do have some great bargains, Dominic.

Simon Addison:  Will you offer me a percentage discount on your cottage in North Norfolk? 

Kelly Molson: Right, I like that one. I don't think that's going to be that unpopular, if I'm honest. Andy, over to you, final one. 

Andy Povey: When you first broached the idea of coming back to the podcast, I was really excited and the fact that I was going to join probably my two favourite podcast guests was really exciting. So my unpopular opinion is hopefully it's going to be borne out or proven by this episode of Skip The Queue, in that Dominic Jones isn't going to be number one on the Skip the Queue chart by the end of next week. 

Dominic Jones: That’s so harsh. Now, what have I ever done to hurt you, Andy? 

Andy Povey: You've not hurt me, Dom, you're not. It's just a little friendly competition. 

Simon Addison: Is Dom number one? He's never mentioned it. I've literally never heard him talk about. 

Andy Povey: I don't know where you'd get that from. 

Dominic Jones: I'm a very shy guy. Am I number one? You're joking me. Really? 

Kelly Molson: Yes, you do not know?

Dominic Jones: We should tell people about this. This needs to get out there before it changes. 

Kelly Molson: So I said, if Dominic is still number one at Christmas, I'm going to send him a gift. I'm going to send him something commemorative for this at Christmas. So he was number one last Christmas. You were the official Skip the Queue Christmas number one. 

Dominic Jones: Amazing, I did not know that. Wow.

Kelly Molson: Yeah, I know. It is amazing. I'm sure you've not mentioned that before. 

Andy Povey: You never talked about it. 

Kelly Molson: We're just at the end of June where we're recording this, so there's still a fair few months to go. We do have our summer break coming up, the season five will start in September. So we've got from September to December for someone to topple you off that number one slot. 

Dominic Jones: I'm happy to be toppled. And joking aside, both Andy and Simon's podcast were amazing and I love both of them. And actually all of your guests are really I do really love Skip the Queue. It's one of those treats you get to looking to the new Skip the Queue podcast. So if I get toppled from number one, life is okay. 

Kelly Molson: You are very kind. Right. Thank you for sharing those unpopular opinions. What would be lovely listeners if you follow us over on Twitter, you can just search for Skip the Queue. I'd like to know who's unpopular opinion you preferred the most out of those three, please. Maybe I'll do a little poll on Twitter next week when this podcast episode launches. Right. This is completely unscripted and this is really last minute for the guests and so I'm super grateful that you could come and join me today. Now, it is a bit of an unusual episode for me because I actually don't tend to talk about the stuff that I do or Rubber Cheese does on this podcast. Maybe tiny little snippets of it here and there, but we never kind of dedicate an episode to the things that we do. 

Kelly Molson: We had a free slot and I thought, I wanted to come on and talk about the initiative that we started last year that is now running in its second year. So bear with me while I explain a little bit of a background about it. So back in May 2022, Rubber Cheese, my agency, launched the first national survey of visitor attraction websites. So I've been asked to speak on a webinar by the lovely team at Kallaway PR, who have also Will Kallaway has been a guest on the podcast. They asked me to come on and talk about cart abandonment and ways that kind of design and UX can help prevent it. So I went away, put my slides together, tried to search for some data that would back up a few theories that I had. 

Kelly Molson: And that was when I kind of hit a bit of a brick wall. Yeah, brick wall, that's what I'm trying to say. Couldn't find any specific data for the sector. I could find data about cart abandonment rates for all kinds of ecommerce sites, all kinds of pharmaceutical companies. Anything and everything that you could think of was out there except visitor attractions. And I realised that I think the data gets a bit skewed for them because they were kind of getting put into hospitality or tourism in general, or hotels sometimes, I think outdoor and sports. So I wasn't kind of able to back up theories that I had with the data. So that led us to setting up the survey. 

Kelly Molson: And were really, really lucky to have some amazing bunch of people like the teams at ALVA and ASVA who totally supported the initiative and shared it with their members. Last year, we had a brilliant response. We had 70 leading attractions from up and down the UK take part. And in November last year, were able to launch the very first Visitor Attraction Website Report, which saw us set the first digital benchmarks for the sector. So the sector now has benchmarks for add to basket rate, basket abandonment rate, bounce rate, conversion rate, load times and then the report, because of the kind of questions that we asked, we got loads of key insight into user experience, booking journeys, mobile experience and loads, loads more. 

Kelly Molson: But more importantly, that report, since its launch, has enabled attractions to make improvements to their websites, which makes their service better for their clients and makes their digital presence better. So it's been such an exciting thing to be involved in and it is a real passion project for me. I've loved every minute of setting it up. This year, we are now in our second year of running it and we've got a brilliant partner in Andy and the team at Convious, which I'm thrilled about. Say thank you. So I've asked you all to come on today to talk a little bit about the survey and the report and what it has enabled you to do. I want to start a little bit with Dominic and Simon, really, and ask them the questions, because they are in the position of being senior leaders in a visitor attraction. 

Kelly Molson: They've both publicly spoken to me and said that the report has enabled them to do some really exciting things. And I think it's probably important for me to state that you're not our clients, like Rubber Cheese is not. We don't work with either of you from a client perspective. I'd definitely count you as friends and obviously Skip the Queue podcast alumni now as well. So, Simon, let me come to you first. What has the report enabled you to do at Roman Baths and why has it been important for you to kind of take part? What's it delivered for you? 

Simon Addison: Sure, I think the report came out at a really important time for us because were already in the midst of a website redesign project. So what the report enabled us to do was to look at the findings in the report, the stats in the report, and ensure that were building our new website in a way that optimised that sort of user experience and customer journey. But I think also in visitor attractions, our websites are often trying to do two quite different things. So, on the one hand, it's sort of the gateway to a visit. It's the first place that people go when they're planning their visit and they want to maybe buy a ticket and come to Bath. 

Simon Addison: At the same time, it's also telling sort of our more engaged audience, information about the collection and information about the history of the site or research that we're undertaking. And we want to be able to really quickly segregate those two audiences, because one audience we want to keep there for as long as possible to delve into the stories that we want to tell them and to really sort of effectively convert them from a very transactional relationship, which is buying a ticket to one of more of a supporter where they might donate in future. They'll become engaged in our program. And so designing a website that on the first page helps to divert visitors from that sort of more engaged, we're here to learn from, “We want to buy a ticket for Saturday”, and sort of get them on their journey quickly, efficiently and as few clicks as possible. 

Simon Addison: So I think having that endorsement of the importance of the user, the journey, how many clicks is optimal before people start abandoning and giving up, that was so helpful in the way that were designing the website. 

Kelly Molson: Amazing. That is such a good testimony for what we've done. And obviously we can't do any of that unless people take part in the survey and submit their data. And so we can understand and learn how websites are performing in the first place. But for me, it's really exciting to hear that because I guess having those kind of baseline benchmarks is a starting point for the industry. And that's, for me, what was missing completely in that we can talk about how we want them to improve and how we want the sector to move on. And I think, Andy, we've had a conversation before where we kind of feel like the sector is a little bit behind, where other industries are probably about four or five years, potentially behind in some areas. 

Andy Povey: I'd go even further than that, Kelly.

Kelly Molson: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. 

Andy Povey: Generally people don't pick up the phone to me and ask me to come and talk about their ecommerce platforms if they're perfectly happy with what they're doing. So maybe I'm seeing a different side of the market. But it astounds me how many attractions there are that aren't able to monitor their performance, to look at their conversion rates, to look at their basket abandonment rates, all that kind of stuff. It's astounding, which is why I'm really happy to be working with you on the survey this year. 

Kelly Molson: Okay, well, let me go to Andy now. So, Andy, introduce yourself for your role at Convious.

Andy Povey: So I'm responsible for everything we do with Convious in the UK and Ireland. So job title is MD, UK and Ireland. 

Kelly Molson: So Andy and I got introduced quite a while ago, actually, now. I feel like it was a Ticketing Professionals Conference. Was it there? 

Andy Povey: I think it was Dominic Jones that introduced us at the Museums and Heritage. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, it was Museums and Heritage. It was.

Andy Povey: And it did indeed. 

Dominic Jones: I can't believe you forgot that. 

Kelly Molson: Yes, it was with the Sarcophagus.

Dominic Jones: I brought two great people together. I mean, I feel like I don't get the credit for this introduction. Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: I'm sorry. 

Dominic Jones: You do? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, it was you. You're actually really good at introducing people.

Dominic Jones: Talented people. Talented people to each other. 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. You grabbed me at this year's Eminet show and introduced me to multiple people, actually. It was very kind of you. What a kind man you are. 

Dominic Jones: It's a pleasure. 

Andy Povey: Isn't he? 

Kelly Molson: So this year, well, I mean, I guess this is thanks to you, Dominic. So Dominic introduced Andy and I.

Dominic Jones: You are welcome, by the way. Welcome. 

Kelly Molson: Why is it important for Convious to be part of what we're doing this year with the report?

Andy Povey: Well, it's actually more important to me on a personal level, I think, Kelly. I'm a massive fan of attractions have been for my whole working life, which is there have been quite a lot of years in that so far, and I just want to see attractions doing better than they do at the moment. We've shared lots of conversations about really awful booking experiences, not just for attractions. Booking tickets to my kids, after school clubs. Personal bear of mine is dreadful. Don't ever do it if you don't have to. 

Andy Povey: So I find that really frustrating. It upsets me to see attractions getting it wrong and some get it really wrong. So having some benchmarks, having some industry standards where people can go, actually, we're not doing what we should be doing. And why aren't we able to measure that? And what does it mean to our business by not measuring that? It's really important. 

Kelly Molson: It is really important. It's been phenomenal to have the support of Convious and specifically Andy and Mirabelle, who I've worked very closely with over the past few months on this project. What it's also allowing us to do, and hopefully this will grow year on year, is that it's opening up to a European audience as well. So, Andy, Convious is a Dutch company originally. 

Andy Povey: Yes. So we're headquartered in Amsterdam. Germany is actually our largest market in terms of volume of customers, but we also have significant presence in France and Belgium, Netherlands and Bedelux area. 

Kelly Molson: So we have had a number of submissions this year from European countries. And that's all down to Convious. 

Andy Povey: Thank you. 

Kelly Molson: We would hope over the next few years that this can start to grow and grow and become something that isn't solely focused on the UK market, which would be really exciting. We did actually have a Canadian zoo take part yesterday, which was quite exciting. So the message is slowly starting to spread out worldwide as well. An international survey. That's exciting, isn't it? 

Andy Povey: Absolutely, yeah. 

Dominic Jones: It was a game changer. That's what you've done. You've created something that is a true game changer. I remember getting very excited about the results and sitting at the back of the London Transport Theatre or wherever you launched them, and then just getting depressed every single slide. I was like, “Oh, no, we don't do that, or, we don't do that well, or, that's not great”. But it was fantastic because actually, for the first time ever, were able to compare ourselves and think, “Right, so if this is the industry standard, how can we make that better? How can we adapt that at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard?” and things like the five steps to make a booking and all this other sort of stuff that you were putting out. And I remember writing my book and thinking, “This is awful. This is absolutely awfu”l because we are performing way worse than that. We're still not fixed it.

Dominic Jones: We've got some money to look at websites and we put some new websites in and we're still developing it. But even little things like we changed and had a microsite last summer, we had one of our best summers ever, but we did that because of your data. We were looking and thinking, “We've got too many steps to making a booking or It takes too long to load this page, or actually we need to.” So I think you've really been a massive game changer, and if now you're getting the Canadians involved, I mean, it's going to be fantastic. I can't wait to see what they've got to say. 

Dominic Jones: So I do genuinely think you've made a big difference and I can't wait to see this year's results and next year's results. And I hope this is something you keep doing forever because you've made a real difference. You really have. 

Kelly Molson: Dominic, you're so kind. That's really kind. Thank you. That's amazing feedback. What I love about what you said is that you've actively been able to take the data that people have supplied and go, “We are here. We're not performing to that point yet. But if we make these changes, we can get to that point.” And that's what I love. This is what this is all about. It's about marginal gains. It's about making those tiny little 1% improvements every day and getting better and better. We couldn't ask for more. That's what we hoped. 

Dominic Jones: And before I get kicked and hit by all my colleagues, there were lots of things that were doing great as well. But actually, you don't talk about them, do you? Don't say, “Oh, well, we're doing okay because we're very British, we only really talk about the things that we want to improve or we're not doing right.” But I do think it's a phenomenal game changer and it's the sort of report that you can use as a toolkit to really sort of check where you are and where you want to be. And I genuinely can't wait for the next one. I hope we get a preview for doing this podcast. Did we get an early release? Is that part of the deal? Simon, did you sign something like that? 

Simon Addison: Yeah, signed it all. Dom, did you not get the paperwork? 

Dominic Jones: Of course you did. He's got people. 

Kelly Molson: If you've taken part in the survey, you will get it exclusively before it is released to the general public. So, I mean, I can confirm that you both have, which is a relief. 

Dominic Jones: Of course we have. We're early adopters, we love it. 

Simon Addison: I did check before we came on this afternoon that we completed it because I thought that would be really awkward. 

Dominic Jones: You probably won the Convious prize, right, for being one of the people that completed it all. The 100th person to complete. I saw all that online, honestly.

Andy Povey: I think everyone got one by you, Dom. I don't know what it was you've done to upset Mirabelle in our marketing team. 

Dominic Jones: I think you're taking this podcast thing a little bit too seriously. 

Simon Addison: Just to go back to what you were saying, Kelly, about marginal gains, I think that is where the value of this is, because most of us have got websites that are capable of selling a ticket. But when you operate a visitor attraction as successful as Dom’s, or you get hundreds of thousands of people going to your website or to your attraction each year, millions of people to the website. 

Simon Addison: And if you can achieve a 1% shift in a customer behaviour, the returns on that are really significant. So you don't have to suddenly come up with a revolutionary new website. You have to focus on what are the things that are just holding you back a little bit, removing those pain points from the customer journey. The uplift is so significant of just achieving a small percentage change. I know Dom doesn't like percentages, but that is what we're talking about here. 

Dominic Jones: No, with that terms, I do, absolutely. And you're absolutely right. And even little things like how it looks on a mobile as opposed to looking on a desktop.

Simon Addison: Exactly.

Dominic Jones: Change our way of thinking. And you've got to keep doing it because that's what's going to make this industry and where we all work and the amazing places that we work in even better. It's brilliant. 

Kelly Molson: Well, we absolutely will continue to do it. So this is the second year that we're running it and we have no intention of stopping. Just going back to what you said, Simon. I think what you said about making what you already have better in terms of your website, I think that's a really important point to push is that it has been a really weird few years. And this year I think all of us were kind of hoping this would be a year of normality. And let's face it really hasn't, has it? It's been another odd one. 

Kelly Molson: So we've started off the year, there's an awful war happening, there's a terrible cost of living crisis, there's all kinds of stuff happening that is affecting attractions. Yet again, affecting all of us, really, but affecting attractions in terms of whether people are going to come, how much they're going to spend, what they're going to do. We know that marketing budgets were going to be probably drastically cut this year by at least 15, 20%. That was the message that was being given when I attended the ALVA Heads of Marketing meeting before Christmas. So I think that being able to look at the report and use it to implement changes to what you already have is really important. You may not have the budget to go out and start again. 

Kelly Molson: You don't necessarily need to, but if there's improvements that you can be made to your site in terms of the performance or the speed, all of those things are going to help. They're all things that will add up over time and ultimately make the performance of it better and make the customer experience better. So think that's quite an important message to talk about. Another thing to add is that this year we're doing it again. We're asking the same questions that we did last year because obviously we need the same data set, but it's more so it's bigger and better. We'll get feedback on whether that's too much for people, but we're asking questions around Usability, whether you're collecting feedback. We're asking questions around kind of promotions and discounts and how people are measuring their traffic sources and whether they're doing user tests. 

Kelly Molson: So there's so much more that's going to be in it from this year. And one really exciting thing which you touched on, Dominic, is that everybody that takes part in the survey will get exclusive access to the report before it's made public. But actually, as soon as you've filled in the survey this year, you get a little mini report. And what it does is benchmark you where you are now against the benchmarks from last year. So it will give you a little report to identify how your website is performing based on last year's benchmarks that we identified. Now that's really important. So you could be underperforming, you might be performing too, you might be overperforming, you might be doing better than those benchmarks from last year, and those benchmarks may change dramatically from last year to this year, we don't know yet. 

Kelly Molson: So that's like a little added bonus. If you're on the fence about taking part, you will get something that's actionable as soon as you've taken part in the survey this year. This year the report will launch towards the end of September. We will release dates and be a bit more specific once we've closed the survey. But this episode is going to launch on the 5th July. That means that you've just got one week left to take part. So one week left before the survey closes on the 12th of July. So if you are thinking about it, stop thinking about it. Go and do it. It will literally take 20 minutes. You're going to need your Google Analytics open or other analytics tool that you use. You can find the link to the survey in our show notes of this show. 

Kelly Molson: You can head over to Rubbercheese.com and you will find the link to it on the home page. Or you can search for the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report and you will find it. You can head over to Convious and you will find it on Convious website. It's everywhere. Go find it. Do it. Take part. These guys did it. Made a big difference. 

Dominic Jones: Best 20 minutes of your life. Just do it. Just do it. Honestly, what else can you do? So much value in 20 minutes. There's not much else you can do.

Kelly Molson: I worry about how you spend your time. If that's the best 20 minutes of real life. Dominic, that's a concern, but, I mean, he's not wrong. 

Dominic Jones: I mean at work, not like in real life. I do amazing things in my normal life. 

Kelly Molson: If you could talk to all of the visitor attractions that are listening now, what would you say to them to encourage them to go and take part? 

Simon Addison: I would say that if you're not already looking at the things you need to fill in, then you should be looking at them anyway. So you say it takes 20 minutes, Kelly, to fill them in? I'll be honest. I didn't fill them in for the Roman Baths, our Digital Marketing officer did. And I think Dom's blank face when you're talking about the mini report also tells me that he didn't fill it in for Mary Rose either. But it's 20 minutes. But it's all data that you should be looking at. And if you're not looking at it's probably a prompt that you or your teams need to be looking at it anyway. 

Simon Addison: And getting that report allows you to either make the case with your trustees or your board to invest if you need investment, or it provides an endorsement of the quality of the website and the offer that you've got. Either one of those things is really useful and we know how hard it is to get investment. Kelly, you talked about marketing budgets at the moment. If you want to get money to invest in your website, having this evidence will help convince your CEO or your Trustees that's the right thing for you to do. And equally, if you don't need to, then this is confirmation of that. So that's what I'd say. 

Kelly Molson: Thank you. That is brilliant. How about you, Dom? 

Dominic Jones: I'd agree and I'll come clean. I didn't fill it in either, but someone did do it. But it's not the filling in, it's the reading it and using it that counts. Right? That's what matters. It's about receiving it and doing something with it. I actually think it's really useful to get as much benchmark data as possible in this industry. And actually what you do is you give us this for websites, you give it for ecommerce and it's fantastic. I wish there were more people doing it in all the areas of our industry because actually this visitor attraction to get benchmarks is quite rare. So it's fantastic to get that. So I really appreciate that. And I would say if you're listening and you work in a visitor attraction, why wouldn't you do this? 

Dominic Jones: Because like Simon says, you can understand where you are. You can use it for funding, you can use it towards getting revenue, you can use it towards recruiting some extra people in your team. You can use it to how you performance manage your team. You can use it for so many things. It's such a good document. I can't stress enough, I might not have filled out the form, but I definitely read it and I definitely used it and I do definitely love it.

Kelly Molson: Wow. So appreciative of your fabulous comments. Thank you both. Andy, what would you add to that? 

Andy Povey: Well, I don't know that I can, but really it shouldn't really take you that long to complete this because you should be all over this kind of data anyway. If you're a digital offer in any business and if you're not looking at this kind of stuff, then it's probably time to really start managing your business in a much better way. And really, just to reiterate the point, that an incremental improvement, just a 0.5% improvement in the results in this kind of area can deliver you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds extra additional revenue over a twelve month period. So what else is that you could do in your business in 20 minutes that's going to potentially deliver that kind of result? 

Kelly Molson: Wow. There you go. I think you've said it all. Well done. Thank you. I really appreciate this. I threw this at you literally a few days ago to come on and they've had no time to prepare whatsoever. So I'm super grateful that you've given up a little bit of time for me to talk about it today. This is something that I'm so passionate about. I bloody love this podcast. I'm so lucky that I get to talk to such lovely people. And I think, like you've all said, just like, I mean, like echoing what Andy said, being able to make this industry better is something that is literally like at the core of me right now. I just want to see good people doing really good things and having really good results. 

Kelly Molson: So if everyone could please just go out and fill the Blooming survey and I'd be really grateful. Thank you. Right, books. Have you all prepared a book today? I didn't ask you to. I've got a book, but I feel like you might have. Right, throw it out. 

Dominic Jones: So I've got a book called The Alignment Advantage Transform Your Strategy, Culture and Customers to Succeed. Now, I love a good strategy book, so the last time I was on the podcast I recommended Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, a great book about strategy. I did bill it as the best book on strategy. Scrap that. It's the second best book on strategy. This is now the best book on strategy because it talks about how you have to align your culture and as a strategic enabler, your strategy and your experience. And for people who listen to Skip the Queue or fill out the Rubber Cheese Website Survey or work with Convious, one of the best people to work with in the world, they will love this book. It is incredible. The only book to read on Strategy by Richard Nugent, The Alignment Advantage. Fantastic. 

Dominic Jones: There is also an interview with a great guy from the Mary Rose in chapter two, I can't remember his name. I think it rhymes with Dominic Jones. I can't remember it fully, but it's very good to read.

Kelly Molson: I knew that there was something like that coming. I knew, Dominic. Amazing. Thank you for another number one strategy book. Simon, what would your book be and have you featured in it? 

Simon Addison: I can say I have not featured in this book. Unlike Dom, I don't read a lot of business and leadership books. I tend to read for escapism and relaxation. But I have picked a workbook and it's probably the only workbook I've gone back to and reread portions of. And it's called Leadership: Plain and Simple by Steve Radcliffe. The book was a foundation of a leadership course that I did when I was at the National Trust, which was called Future Engage, Deliver. And it was centered on the idea that in order to be an effective leader, you need to have clarity of your vision for the future. You need to engage your colleagues and your teams in that future and then collectively, you need to work together to deliver it. And it sort of broke that strategy and leadership piece into those three distinct portions. 

Simon Addison: And it had some really helpful models in there for self reflection, for getting meaningful feedback from teams and developing techniques to engage stakeholders in the delivery of your vision. I would recommend that obviously it's not the first or the second best book on leadership, but maybe it's the third. Who knows?

Kelly Molson: Love that. What's really interesting is these books. Both neither of those books have been recommended on the podcast before, so I always like it when a new ones come up because I add it onto my little wish list on Amazon. 

Dominic Jones: I'm going to read that book. I've not heard of that one, Simon, but that sounds amazing. I do love the book recommendations. I do the same. I go buy them. Except for the Harry Potter one.

Kelly Molson: I already had and you knocked Geoff off as well, didn't you? 

Dominic Jones: Did I knock Geoff off? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah. Geoff was number one for quite a while. 

Dominic Jones: Is he no longer number one? Skip the Queue. 

Kelly Molson: No, did I not tell you that you are number one?

Simon Addison: Once you edit this out, kelly, this is going to be a really short podcast episode. 

Kelly Molson: I'm leaving all of this in. Andy, what about you? Have you got a book that you'd like to share? 

Andy Povey: A book I'll keep going back to is The Experience Economy by Joe Pine. And I don't know whether someone else has recommended this in the past, but for me, that whole life chain value thing, the graph where you talk about a thing becoming a commodity and everything moving into the sort of experience space, really fits with what we're doing in our industry. It really fits with what we do at Convious. The reason I enjoy what we do. 

Kelly Molson: It's a good book. I'm going to ask Joe if he'll come on the podcast. 

Andy Povey: So I saw him talking at the Blooloop conference a few years ago. Absolutely compelling. 

Dominic Jones: Could he maybe talk at the January? Why don't we get him on 2025 podcast? Let's do that, right? 

Kelly Molson: Yeah, let's discuss it off the pod. Yeah, we'll discuss that later. Thank you all. I'm so grateful. Oh, as ever. Sorry, listeners. If you want to win a copy of those books, head over to our Twitter feed. You know what to do. Retweet this podcast announcement. But more importantly, go and fill in the survey. Be so grateful. 

Andy Povey: Fill in the survey. 

Kelly Molson: Fill in the survey. We have got, actually a podcast exclusive. Let me tell you how many attractions have taken part so far. Last year, 2022, 70 attractions from up and down the country took part. This year with a week well, actually, it's two weeks today, but a week to go. When this podcast launches, 129 attractions have taken part. So we've nearly doubled on last year. I'm so thrilled. But, yeah, if we could get that to 140, that would be amazing. Imagine 140 attractions being able to improve their websites this year, being able to improve their customer service, being able to improve their bottom line. That's what it's all about. Thanks, guys. You've been amazing. 

Simon Addison: Thanks, Kelly. 

Dominic Jones: Incredible.

Andy Povey: Thank you, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE!

•  Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industry
• Gain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion rates
• Explore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performance
• Learn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion rates
• Uncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the report now for invaluable insights and actionable recommendations!
 

With the sunny weather outside, we felt it was time to republish this episode about Bath Thermae Spa. Bath in the southwest of England is famous for its Roman baths. In its Regency heyday, the supposedly curative waters attracted the cream of British society…and of course, Jane Austen. 2,000 years later, the  waters were re-harnessed in the magnificent thermal spa located just a soap bath's throw away from the original. 

Music: © Barney & Izzi Hardy 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.

Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor Numbers

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast

Competition ends January 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.

Show references:

https://www.romanbaths.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonaddison/

Simon is the Business Manager, Roman Baths and Pump Room, Bath, and heads the finance and business planning functions at the Roman Baths. He is responsible for business analysis, pricing strategy and leads the benchmarking work.

Simon started his career in the financial services industry, where he qualified as a chartered management accountant with the Bank of New York. He moved to the National Trust in 2012, where he held roles in the finance team. Latterly he was responsible for the Trust’s finances in Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Simon joined the senior leadership team at the Roman Baths in 2017.

Simon joined the Board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions in May 2022.

Transcriptions:

Kelly Molson:  Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths.

We talk all things pricing, and the phenomenal impact that introducing variable pricing has had at the Baths. 

If you like what you hear, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. 

Kelly Molson: Simon, welcome to the podcast. It's lovely to see you today.

Simon Addison:  Thanks for having me. I'm excited. I'm nervous about the icebreakers though.

Kelly Molson:  Everyone always is. You shouldn't be. What is your favourite season? And why?

Simon Addison:  I think autumn. Yeah, the colours on the trees, kick through the leaves with the kids. You can go on those walks, you get the crisp mornings. We're starting to get them at the moment. But you still get sort of a bit of warmth at the end of the day in the afternoon. You can still sit outside on a good day. Yep, definitely autumn.

Kelly Molson:  Totally agree. You are my people. Simon. Autumn woolly hats. 

Simon Addison:  Yeah.

Kelly Molson:  Cold but bright. 

Simon Addison:  Yes. 

Kelly Molson:  Frisbee, dog walks and Halloween. 

Simon Addison:  Not so much of a Halloween person but it could be an unpopular opinion territory here. But yeah.

Kelly Molson:  All right. Well, save that. Okay. Have you ever been told off for touching something in a museum?

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I have. I think the last time was at Lanhydrock. Which is a National Trust place down in Cornwall. We were in the kitchen. They had some plastic fake food on the table and I got told off for touching the plastic fake food.

Kelly Molson:  Did you just touch it? Oh, you're trying to juggle with it.

Simon Addison:  I was just touching it, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Okay, don't touch plastic fruit kids. Right. What is something you're really good at? And is a little bit obscure. I'll give you an example of one of mine. I'm really good at; if I hear a song. Or like songs. I can tell you what film they've been in.

Simon Addison:  That is a good question. I'm pretty good at motorways around the UK. Where you want to go. I could probably tell you roughly what motorways would be involved in that journey. Don't ask me now though.

Kelly Molson:  And I'm really dreadful as well. That's exactly why that really made me laugh. It made you sound like an absolute nerd. Sorry, Simon.

Simon Addison:  You asked an accountant on your podcast, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  That's very true. It's very true. I should have been more prepared for the nerd answers. Sorry. All right. So good at motorway so you could have been like London cabbie. You'd have been good at the knowledge.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I reckon that's a different level of knowledge, though. Isn't it? Just those trunk roads around the UK? It's quite a niche building is that detailed. I think we're just talking about my major routes.

Kelly Molson:  We would need to find like a really niched pub quiz for our talents wouldn't we? One that covers music from films and routes around the UK using motorways only.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, pretty tough.

Kelly Molson:  Anyone knows a pub quiz team that needs those skills on them? Hit us up. Right. What is your unpopular opinion?

Simon Addison:  Well, I was gonna go with something about Crocs as being an abomination of a choice of footwear. But I feel like that might have come up before. So my unpopular opinion is that golf is the greatest amateur sport to play.

Kelly Molson:  Okay, you are a clean golfer, I take it. 

Simon Addison:  I am a keen golfer. But I think more than that, like the handicap system, so you get a handicap if you're a golfer tells you how good you are. And that means that golfers of different abilities can play competitively against each other on a level playing field, I could go out and play against a professional and have a competitive match. I don't think there are many other sports that you could do that in. 

And I think for me, that meant that, you know, when I started playing golf in my early 20s, I used to play quite a bit with my granddad, who was quite a lot older than me. And once I was working, I still used to play with him a few times a year. Although I was a better golfer than him on paper, I reckon I only beat him once. Every time I turned up to play with him. I wanted to show how good I was and played like a muppet. 

But I don't think there are many sports that an eight year old could be a 25 year old app. And if you want to spend silly amounts of money, you can go and play courses where professionals play and you can see how much better they are than you and you can really measure your ability against what a professional sort of standard is. 

My seven year old son's just getting into golf at the moment. And so this summer, walking around the golf course with him has been sort of the highlight of my summer. And now he's got his handicap. He's seven and he'll probably beat me in a couple of years. And again, I don't think you know, I don't think there are many sports where seven or eight year old could turn up and be a fully grown adult. So for me, that's why golf is the best amateur sport. 

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, I'd never thought about it like that at all. I think that's brilliant. My husband is a keen golfer and I am a golf widow, although not on the weekends, because he's a wedding photographer anyway, so the weekend so he does fit it. He is quite kind and fits it around times when he should be working when he's not working. But yeah, I hadn't ever thought about that. So it kind of puts you on a really good, I guess you get to learn from people that are really experienced as well because you can actually play against them. Whereas you would never get that opportunity at all, do you?

Simon Addison:  Exactly. And you can go out and play with someone who's way better than you and see how they play and it can improve your game. Yeah. And my wife is also a golf widow. I reckon she's playing the long game. I think she's seeing everything. If my son plays as well, then, in years to come, she'll get those Saturdays back. You know, maybe if the other son also takes up golf. Maybe it's just a long game. But right now she's definitely a golf widow.

Kelly Molson:  She knows she's plotting because I'm doing exactly the same. I pluck up the hours that he plays golf, and I work out how many hours I can spend doing things that I really want to it's just I haven't found a hobby. That takes me four hours. Yeah, that's what I need.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, there is that? Yeah, it's yeah, it was the might be, in my opinion, the greatest sport for an amateur to play. It isn't a short sport, and it isn't a cheap sport.

Kelly Molson:  It is not. That's a great opinion, though. Let's see what our listeners think. Thank you. Okay, Simon, as you mentioned earlier, you are an accountant. I don't think we've had an accountant on the podcast before but you're not really a traditional accountant, are you? So tell us a little bit about your role.

Simon Addison:  So at the moment, I work at the Roman Baths in Bath, for Bath and North East Somerset Council. So we're a council owned and run visitor attraction. As well as the ruin bars, we operate the Fashion Museum and the Victoria Art Gallery in Bath, and also the record office in the city. 

My role is Business Manager, I'm responsible for all aspects of sort of finance and business planning, benchmarking and trend analysis, I sort of try not to take offense at my profession, when people say you're not a traditional accounting, but I think it means that I try and look a little bit further than just what the numbers are telling you. I think the accounts are only ever a symptom of what else is going on in the operation. So if all you do is look at the accounts each month, you're probably not going to understand what's driving those numbers. So I think, you know, maybe it's about trying to sort of relate all of that performance data to operational outcomes and objectives.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, I think because we've spoken in the past, I always very much saw your role. Well, the conversations that we've had about your role, and will have always been that you've been on the side of the operations as well. So you, you know, you do have that kind of contact with the visitors. And you have that you kind of broach that in between bit between the accountant and the ops department. If that makes sense. That's how it came across to me anyway.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, I think that's fair. I think before I came to the Baths, I was at the National Trust my job title there was Finance Business Partner. And I think that really was, that was much more. Well, my role now is similar, but it's about working with operational staff and helping them to achieve their objectives. And I think people can see finance can see budgets, as, you know, an intimidating subject. And actually, really, their tool to achieve your objectives. 

And I think, you know, particularly in an organisation like the National Trust, you join the National Trust as a gardener or arranger or conservator, because you're passionate about those things, if you're good at them, you get given a budget. And I think, then all of a sudden, you're responsible for not just, your garden, but also how much you spend looking after it. And I think sitting down with those people who may be wanting to spend more money or needed new equipment, and sort of demystifying the accounts, how they worked. 

That's what I find really rewarding, churning out a set of accounts or a budget in and of itself, isn't a particularly rewarding process. It's about, sitting down with someone who didn't think they could achieve X or Y that year and making them realise that actually, it's it is achievable if they manage their money slightly differently. I think that's a really rewarding place to be.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, absolutely. And that's that kind of alludes to some of the stuff that we can talk about today, because you've been through a really interesting pricing journey at the Baths. And I want you to talk us through what you've done. And then we can talk about some of the impacts that's actually had because it's incredibly impressive. And I think people listening will be really, really intrigued by this. So variable pricing. Tell us why you took that direction in the first place. How did this come to happen?

Simon Addison:  Sure. I joined the Baths in autumn 2017. So we've just come out of the summer over the summer at the Baths we open 13 hours a day. So open the doors at nine o'clock in the morning through to 10 o'clock at night. We've got the gas flares going Torchlight experience. It's a fantastic time, but it takes its toll on staff opening for that length of time, and we just had our busiest ever summer. 

So in the Spring, in early summer of 2017, there were some terror attacks in London and in Manchester. And one of the consequences of that is that we saw an almost immediate spike in visitors to Bath I think people perceive Bath as being a relatively safe city, you can drive pretty much into the centre of it. And people who get to their own bus without needing to engage in public transport and, and so almost overnight, you could see that sort of spike in visitors. And frankly, we weren't prepared for it. 

So the staff had come out of a summer where we'd seen huge numbers of visitors that we perhaps weren't ready for. But actually, over the course of the previous three or four years, visitor numbers have been growing steadily. And we were doing nothing to really manage those numbers or influence when people came. So we could start the year telling you what our busiest day of the year was going to be. And all we did was brace ourselves.

So coming out of that sort of 2017 year, I was new in post, we also had a new commercial manager, new in post, we started to think about what we could do differently. And I went to an Alpha Finance Directors meeting, where Baker Richards, the consultants did a presentation on pricing strategy. And Debbie Rich's talked about the fact that if all you do is increase your price by inflation every year, you haven't got a pricing strategy. And we weren't even doing that we were just putting 50 P on it, not linking it to inflation. 

And all we were doing was making a bit more money each year. But we weren't really shaping anything to do with our visitor behaviour. All of the visitors arrived in concentration in the summer, as you would expect. But also within an individual day, we would have peaks at 11 o'clock and two o'clock, which will be familiar to lots of people who work in attractions. And again, we didn't try and do anything to smooth those visitors through the day, obviously, the experience suffered at our busiest times. And also, because we're not a particularly big site, anyone that's been will know that, you know, there are quite a lot of enclosed spaces, and visitors get very close to the Roman monument. 

And if you've packing in six or seven thousand people in a day, or with rucksacks on or turning round all the time, there's a sort of a conservation impact of those, that number of people coming through the monument. And if they're knocking off bits of Roman stone, you can't really just stick it back on.

Kelly Molson:  Not plastic fruit, is it, Simon?

Simon Addison:  It's not plastic fruit. No, it's not. And so we were, yes, we were making money, but our visitor experience scores were suffering. And also our conservation objectives were not being delivered by having that concentration of people through the year. So after that, we sort of engaged Baker Richards or we went through a tender process, and ended up appointing Baker Richards to help us with a pricing strategy.

Kelly Molson:  So what did that look like in terms of your team? Because I'd love to know who you got involved in that process. Because I think sometimes things can happen back office, that there's an agreement that this is what we're going to do, but we don't necessarily get all of the right members of the team involved from the start. So what did that look like for you?

Simon Addison:  For us, it looked like a multidisciplinary team. So we have people from across the business involved in that we set up a Project Steering Group, and we had members of staff from the on that group, I thought was particularly important to get the staff involved early, because ultimately, they're the people that are going to sell the ticket to the customer. So if a customer walks up and the member of staff, the visitor experience host that greets them doesn't feel the tickets worth the selling price, then that will come across in the welcome. And equally, if they do you feel it's worth the price, they understand the reason that we've implemented this strategy and the journey that we're going on, then they can sell it with confidence, and they can articulate it. And if someone turns around and says is expensive, they're ready to defend that price.

So we had V involved from the start, it was also really important to get senior leadership buy in from across the business. So making sure that the curatorial staff understood that we were trying to manage down the numbers, or not done the numbers overall, but manage the numbers of peak times and smooth the visitors throughout the year for a specific conservation objective was really important, because I think, you know, in visitor attractions, usually, there's a tension between the conservation objectives and the provision of access to that, whether it's a museum, whether it's a historic garden or house. 

The more people you let through a space, the more impact it has from a conservation objective. So holding those two things, intention, conservation and access are usually when, in my experience, we deliver best as a business, meeting the needs both of our visitors, but also the collections and buildings that we're caring for. So making sure that everyone was signed up for the objectives at the start was really important. And then obviously, we had marketing involved, because again, they need to be able to be confident that we can sell these prices that we're not gonna get a load of feedback that was too expensive. And sort of the commercial professionals that you'd expect as well.

Kelly Molson:  So what did it look like? When you started to go through this process? How did you work out what that pricing was going to be?

Simon Addison:  When we engaged Baker Richards, the first sort of phase of the project was a discovery phase. So we gave them access to lots of historic data. So they took our ticketing data, they could look at how many people we had day by day, week by week, and they went back over five years, they also took the retail sales data so that, you know, because one of the things we didn't want to do was to make more money Front of House as people walked in, and then compromise our retail spend. 

So they looked at the range of data that we had available. And one of the features of the bars that they were able to identify is that we were quite predictable. As a site, our visitor numbers were fairly predictable; month by month and week by week. And what that meant is they could be quite confident about the level of demand, we were seeing whether that was from domestic or international visitors, and that gave them more confidence in the recommendations they were making. Because we had a regular repeatable pattern of visitation, they were then able to stay with confidence, this model shouldn't impact on that, if we were a less regular site was prone to more I don't know whether or seasonal fluctuations, then it might have been more difficult to have those that level of confidence. 

So we sort of the initial phase we went through was that discovery phase, they took the data, they analysed it. And we also gave them a really clear brief, we didn't just want to make more money. We felt really strongly that actually as a heritage site, we didn't want to just become a luxury product that was only available to middle classes. So we gave them a brief that we wanted some of our prices to reduce. 

And we wanted to not price up every school holiday, you know, what you might call the Centre Park pricing model where you can, you can sort of identify when the school holidays are by the fact that price triples. So we gave them a really clear brief. And they went through that data discovery phase initially, and came back to us halfway through the project and sort of presented back the data analysis that they'd done and said, "This is our picture of your business, does it chime with your own understanding?" 

And for me, that was one of the biggest, you know, as well as getting a pricing strategy out of it, having some consultants look at your business, and effectively validate all the analysis that you do yourself was really helpful. Reassuringly, for us, they didn't tell us anything we didn't know. But it is a validation of the quality of the performance, management and the business analysts that I have working in my team that, you know, they're producing EMI, that that was consistent and telling a consistent story with what Baker Richards did.

Kelly Molson:  And so what decisions did you come to about the pricing? And how does it work now, and because I want to talk about how it works then but also, this was pre pandemic, right? So then you had the pandemic to deal with as well. So what did you put in place?

Simon Addison:  So to start with, we ended up with a relatively simple pricing structure. We had three price points during the year, we had that sort of summer, peak price period, if you like, we had the shoulder months, so spring and autumn, and then we had the off peak period through the winter. And within that, weekdays were always cheaper than weekends. 

Every time a visitor looked at our website, there was always a choice to be made about what price they wanted to pay. And when we were first speaking to Baker Richards, they gave this great example; it was one of the kids theatre shows it may have been Peppa Pig World or something. And parents were taking their kids to see Peppa Pig at the theatre. And there was a balloon on sale and was four pounds for this balloon. And they were getting loads of complaints about people not wanting to spend four pounds on a balloon. 

Next year, they sold two balloons, they sold one balloon for four pounds, they sold one balloon for eight pounds. Not only did they get no complaints about the balloon, for four pounds, they sold a load of eight pound balloons, because all of a sudden, people go into the theatre, we're presented with a choice. They could either buy no balloon, but if they did want to buy a balloon, they could choose to buy a four pound balloon or they could choose to buy an eight pound balloon. And so it's then been their choice as to the price they've paid. 

And so for us with visitors, they're looking at the website, there's always a choice that they can make. So when they choose to come on a Saturday, they know that they could have chosen to come on a Friday and it would have been cheaper, but the Saturday met their needs. So the price they've paid is a choice they've made based on the needs they've got. And so that was introducing that element of choice was a really important feature of the pricing structure.

Kelly Molson:  Yes, you're empowering them to make the decision about it, not forcing them into a decision.

Simon Addison:  Absolutely. And I think the other thing we did in that first iteration of the pricing strategy was introduced an online discount because we knew lots of people looked at our website before they came, but very few people committed to purchase on the website. Most people came in and joined the queue. And that meant that we couldn't manage their arrival time because they just joined the queue and they'd get in when they got in. 

So we were seeing sort of five or 7% pre booking before the pandemic, and before we introduced this strategy, we introduced the strategy we put in a 10% online discount. And overnight, we saw a doubling in the number of people that were pre booking. So for us, that was really helpful in terms of predicting their arrival time, but for our marketing team as well, all of a sudden, we had the postcode of where these people were coming from is valuable data that we weren't getting beforehand. 

Pre booking has become slightly more important over the last couple of years. And we no longer have that discount for online because it's been a necessity. So but that was one of the features of that first iteration of the strategy.

Kelly Molson:  Amazing. And how did your visitors engage with it? What was the feedback when you launched it?

Simon Addison:  We didn't get a lot of direct feedback about the fact that we had a new pricing strategy, because the Baths is, you know, one of our features is that we're a tickbox destination. So we're 80% first time visitors. So in implementing a new strategy, we didn't have to concern ourselves too much with the person that said, "Oh, you were cheaper last year, or you've done something different to last year", because those people by and large, don't come year after year. 

Most people who've been before came on a school trip as I came 20 years ago, it's changed a bit. And so it's definitely a different model, we operate to some other attractions. But what we did see, we saw some complaints, but we saw complaints before the strategy came in. So we saw no more complaints on price than we did beforehand. And we saw many fewer complaints about crowding. 

And our value for money score increased, and has continued to increase each year with since we increased our prices. 

Kelly Molson:  That's brilliant.

Simon Addison:  And I think it comes back to that choice element. So your visitors are standing there, and they've made a choice to pay that money. And so they didn't feel like they wanted to come to the Baths, and they had to pay the price. They wanted to come to the Baths, and they were able to choose which price met their needs and the day that they wanted to come and I think that's translated through to those scores.

Kelly Molson:  Absolutely. I'm definitely never gonna pay a pound for a balloon. No, I'm just putting that out there. It's not happening.

Simon Addison:  Me, I wouldn't pay four pounds either. 

Kelly Molson:  Who needs a balloon? You're just gonna let it go.

Simon Addison:  And then you gotta pop it. And it's gonna be a source of disappointment. 

Kelly Molson:  Wow, in the wrong business. Right. This was pre pandemic. So this was 2017, you started this process 2017? 

Simon Addison:  Yeah, yeah. 2017, I joined, we did the sort of discovery and design the strategy 2018, implemented in 2019. And we had our best ever year in terms of visitor numbers in 2019. But all of the growth came outside of the June, July and August period. So our growth came in April and May and September and October. So from that sort of objective of smoothing out the visitors through the year, we achieved that by pushing people out into the shoulder months. 

And also, we didn't have one day over 7000 visitors. In fact, we didn't have one day over six and a half 1000 visitors. Now, that's still a lot of people through quite a small space. But we certainly drove out those peaks that we were seeing before we implemented the strategy. And as importantly, we made 2.3 million pounds extra revenue in the first year of the strategy. And Baker Rich's modelling suggested that we'd make 2.4 million. So they were really incredibly accurate terms of the modelling that they'd done. And the returns that were possible through this strategy. And it delivered so accurately to that really impressive bit of work.

Kelly Molson:  I mean, that is a phenomenal impact, isn't it? The difference that has made is just so impressive. But that was 2019. What has happened since COVID?

Simon Addison:  So I think, because we had multiple price points through the year before COVID, it was much easier for us to reopen with a model that was reactive. I think if we'd only ever had a fixed price point, changing the price would have been a really big thing for us. Whereas we changed our price twice a week. And so being able to sort of reopen in the summer of 2020. With our plan summer pricing, we came to the end of August. And we were still seeing really strong demand against a much reduced capacity. 

And so we kept the prices at our peak price through September and October. And because we already had those price points built into our pricing structure, it was really easy for us to just take that decision to continue with the higher prices and maximise the revenue from the visitors that were coming through. And I'd say that arguably the 300,000 pounds of additional revenue we made from the pricing structure in 2020 was more useful than the 2.3 million that we made the year before because you know there was revenue was so scarce at that point. 

And so, being more reactive was really important. Obviously, we ditched the online discount because online booking became a mandatory feature of going anywhere. So you don't need to discount something that visitors had to do. And I think also it just having gone through a year where we charged more, we had the confidence that visitors were prepared to pay for that. 

And so coming out of COVID, in late 2020, we did a phase two piece of work with Baker Richards, looking at what happened in 2019. But also what was happening in our sort of COVID reopening. And what that showed is that even though we'd increase the prices quite significantly through the summer, in 2019, it had a negligible impact on the demand. So that gave us the confidence to be even punchier in that sort of that June, July and August period, with our peak pricing, and we don't articulate it this way on our website. But effectively, we introduced a super peak price going into 2021. 

So having never charged more than 17 pounds in 2018, this summer, we've charged 27.50. Not for a long period of the year, it's only at the weekends. And it's only during June, July and August. So it's only 15 days a year or something. But having that headline price, I think Dom from Mary Rose talked about decoy pricing when he was on, it's almost that sort of if you've got that high headline price, then everything else feels comparatively good value, as you as you trade down from that. 

So people are saying, "Well, you know, let's not go on Saturday, we'll go on Wednesday, because it's three pounds cheaper or whatever", or if you're buying a family ticket even more. So I think using that sort of that headline price as a decoy having real confidence about the quality of your product. So yes, it's worth it, because people are prepared to pay for it. 

But also, if you look at what else people are prepared to spend 27 pounds on, people have spent 27 pounds on lots of different things. So why is the Roman Baths or why is the Tower of London or Stonehenge? Yeah, they're all equally valid cause on people's leisure spend. And we should be confident about the quality of product that we we give to people.

Kelly Molson:  You mentioned earlier about retail spent, and this not having an effect on it. What was the effect on retail spend, once you transition to the variable pricing?

Simon Addison:  There was no impact at all. So we didn't see an increase in retail spend pre pandemic, we just saw no impact at all. For anyone who's been to the Baths, we've got a really small shop, we're confined by being in the centre of Bath, we'd love to be able to expand our shop. But when we do, our benchmarking, we're consistently performing in the top two or three sites for sales per square metre. So we just know that we can't fit enough people in that shop for the number of people that come through the site. 

And the work that Baker Richards did showed the display visitor numbers increasing year on year, the number of transactions that were taking place to the shop hadn't been keeping pace, basically our busiest times the shop had reached saturation point. So it may be that some people decided not to go into the shop because they'd paid more to come in. But for anyone that decided that there was someone who has bypassed the shop before, because, you know, they just looked in when Bath was too busy. 

So for anyone who was not going into the shop, there were other customers who were prepared to go in. And since COVID, our retail spend has been through the roof. And you our spend per visitor this year is 50 pence a visitor higher than it was pre COVID. And I can't tell you why, Kelly. 

Kelly Molson:  I was gonna ask, why?

Simon Addison:  Obviously, high quality ranges and my retail colleagues would not forgive me if I said it was anything other than the quality of product in there. But I think certainly when we first reopened from COVID people were just glad to be out. There was a sense, particularly if you've had a lot done experience like mine with small children, you were just glad to be anywhere other than your own house. 

And our top selling lines before COVID were toiletries because we bought the bars, spa and well being but people didn't want to buy toiletries, because you know, in 2020, no one's picking up anything and sniffing it. That felt like quite a risky thing to do. But we saw gin and that was a genius move. So we sold gin and children's books. And I think, you know, most people's lockdown experiences was similar to mine, not enough gin and not enough children's books. 

So they came to the Roman Baths and they bought both of those things in spades. But you know, as toiletries have come back through that they're picking up in terms of sales, but people spending a lot of money, buying high priced jewellery product. I wish I could tell you why. You should have asked Callum when he was on.

Kelly Molson:  Yeah, yeah, I should. Well, I'll post the question to him and see if he knows. Yeah, it's interesting. I wonder if it's that. I mean, I was very conscious of visiting attractions and spending money in the retail stores because of the fact that they'd been shut. I wanted to spend more money. I wanted to do my bit because I wanted those places to stay open. So I wonder if there's still a residue of that happening when people are visiting?

Simon Addison:  I think in 2020, we would definitely put it down to that and you could almost see it as well. And there was a sense that people had saved money. Whether that was on commuting costs or childcare bills or whatever, there was a sense that people would save money during the lockdowns and therefore they had more disposable income. 

But we're coming up with the cost of living pressures. We're coming into winter with massive uncertainty. And every month, I look at those returning members, and I'm waiting for that spend per visitor to drop, and it hasn't done yet. So I think it's more than just a sort of an altruistic desire to support the attractions. Or maybe it's about people choosing to prioritise this activity of their spend over, I don't know Netflix subscriptions or something. So, yeah, I can't answer that question. But we're glad to see it.

Kelly Molson:  I'll ask Callum. I'll ask Callum Lumsden of Lumsden Design and see if he can tell us and shed some light on it. All right. So what I'd really like to know, if you could give me your top tips for people that are thinking about going through this process, what would they be if anyone that's listening? Now that's thinking this is a genius thing to do, I would like to add 2.3 million to my revenue, please.

Simon Addison:  I think the first thing is being really clear on your objectives. So for us, it wasn't just about making more money, we'd have ended up with a pricing strategy that looked different if we wanted to just make more money. So the ability to deliver something for visitor experience objectives and conservation objectives was really important, and really featured heavily in the brief that we gave to Baker Richards. So starting out with that clarity of purpose, I think would be my first tip. 

I'd also say if I know budgets are tight at the moment, but if you can pay for the analysis, then firstly, it's such a helpful validation of your own business analysis that you're doing yourselves. But when you need to sell this inwardly, so we're part of the council, we needed to sell this strategy and inwardly to local politicians and the council leadership. But if you're in a more sort of typical attraction, you're going to need to sell this to your trustees. And having that sort of analysis as a validation of your strategy. And your approach will hopefully give them the confidence that increasing prices by a significant percentage is not a ridiculous thing to do, certainly involving your front of house teams. 

And that's not linked to pricing strategy that's just linked to anything you do in your attraction, your Front of House Team are the people that are going to hear from the visitors what they think about it, they're the person who has got to explain your own strategic direction to the visitors when they're in front of them. But particularly when it comes to pricing, I think making sure that they're involved, they've got a chance to ask questions. And also that you're giving them that feedback as well. So that sort of regular communication, once you've implemented it, tell them whether what you're seeing is what you expected to see. 

Because otherwise, if there's a void in that communication, they'll fill it with their own analysis, or we didn't seem very busy last Saturday, and it might not have been busy last Saturday, because it was pouring with rain, as opposed to your pricing strategy is not working. So making sure that you're having that regular dialogue with those teams on an ongoing basis. 

And I think the final thing is holding your nerve. And that, you know, when we'd never charged more than 17 pounds before that first Saturday, when our prices were 22 pounds, there's a level of nervousness that is associated with that. And so holding the nerve when price setting, we could do a whole separate podcast on communicating with the travel trade. But it's safe to say, that was probably the most challenging aspect of the project in terms of moving the travel trade on to a variable pricing model when they have a, you know, they sell in advance, they sell through third parties. And that was a really difficult set of conversations. But we held our nerve. 

And despite being told that they wouldn't be able to work with us, they wouldn't be able to bring us the volume. 2019, they bought us more people and they never bought us before. So so there is a bit about holding nerve. And I think post implementation, don't be tempted to tinker too much. Because otherwise you won't know if the strategy didn't work or whether you fiddled with it, and then it didn't work. So I think if you change too many things at once this is the nerd in me, you change too many things at once, you can't tell what's made the difference. 

So trying to only change one thing, will tell you whether that one thing works or not. Obviously, go through a pandemic, you change everything all at once. And it's very difficult. But generally speaking, if you can sort of make change in a stage where you can measure the impact of an intervention, whereas if you change four or five things at once, you don't know what's caused it, cause the effect that you're seeing. So those would be my top tips. I think Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Absolutely excellent advice. Simon, I know that you are an ALVA member, I know that you're really keen to speak with other attractions. I know that you're very well obviously you've come on the podcast to share your insight and I know you're very keen to do that. So I'm sure if anyone does have questions around the OTA challenge or variable pricing, I'm sure that you'd be super happy to talk to people.

Simon Addison:  Yeah, always happy to.

Kelly Molson:  We will pop all of Simon's details in terms of, we will put his LinkedIn profile and a link to the Roman Baths in the show notes. So if you do want to reach out to him and ask him any questions, please feel free. Simon, a book that you would recommend to our listeners something that you love or something that shaped your career. What do you have for us today?

Simon Addison:  This was a difficult question. I tried really hard to think of a workbook that had changed my career. And I really could I've read workbooks, but there's not one that I go back to time and time again. So, so I've picked fiction books, I've picked 1000 Splendid Suns, which is a novel by Khaled Hosseini, which is set in Afghanistan. And I don't think many people are going to choose this book after I describe it. It's not an uplifting read, it's a really challenging read. 

The central characters are women living in Afghanistan, forced into marriage during a time when the Taliban influence was growing. But I think I read at a time when Afghanistan was in the news a lot. And we were probably presented with a relatively one dimensional interpretation of Afghanistan, in the way that the news coverage came through. And so it offered me an insight into sort of, I guess, Life beyond the headlines. And despite the fact that it was a really harrowing read at times, there was a sense of hope that came through even the most difficult situations. 

And I think that really stayed with me. And as somebody who's probably we're very interested in sort of world affairs and politics, I think, it really challenged me to make sure that you sort of read around the topic. If you before coming up with a really definite position or opinion on a world situation, the need to sort of read around something. And I know, this wasn't a it wasn't a fact book. It was a fiction book. But I think it really changed my perspective on Afghanistan. So I don't think many people want to read it. But if you want a really harrowing read, but you know, that sense of hope and really difficult times, it is a great book.

Kelly Molson:  Thank you. Well, thank you for sharing. I'm sure people will want that. And if you do, if you go over to our Twitter account, @skip_the_queue, and you retweet this podcast announcement with the words "I want Simon's book", you could be in with a chance of winning it. 

Simon, thank you. It's been lovely to chat to you. I always enjoy chatting to you. Even though I called you a nerd earlier. I apologise about that. 

Simon Addison:  I forgive you, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  If you do have a little pop quiz that you'd like me and Simon to join that you think would be useful for, please do let us know. On that note, I think we'll end the podcast there. Thanks, Simon. It's been fun.

Simon Addison: Thanks, Kelly.

Kelly Molson:  Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. 

Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Thermae Bath Spa in the Roman city of Bath is in a building that looks not only to the past, but also to the future. 

Music © Barney and Izzi Hardy