Logo
    Search

    the fish that ate the whale

    Explore " the fish that ate the whale" with insightful episodes like "#325 Larry Gagosian (Billionaire Art Dealer)", "Sam Zemurray (The Fish That Ate the Whale)", "#265 Becoming Steve Jobs: The Evolution of a Reckless Upstart into a Visionary Leader" and "#37 The Fish That Ate The Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King" from podcasts like ""Founders", "Founders", "Founders" and "Founders"" and more!

    Episodes (4)

    #325 Larry Gagosian (Billionaire Art Dealer)

    #325 Larry Gagosian (Billionaire Art Dealer)

    What I learned from reading How Larry Gagosian Reshaped The Art World by Patrick Radden Keefe. 

    ----

    Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders by investing in a subscription to Founders Notes

    ----

    (4:00) The dealer has been so successful selling art to masters of the universe that he has become one of them.

    (5:45) We think of genius as being complicated, but geniuses have the fewest moving parts. Gagosian is simple. He's basically a shark, a feeding machine.

    (6:00) A novice is easily spotted because they do too much. Too many ingredients, too many movements. Too much explanation. A master uses the fewest motions required to fulfill their intention.

    (10:00) His own publicist described him as “A Real Killer”

    (12:00) The Invisible Billionaire: Daniel Ludwig by Jerry Shields. (Founders #292)

    (17:30) There is always a blueprint. Joseph Duveen was the art dealer to the Robber Barons. 

    Biographies of Duveen:

    Duveen: A Life in Art

    Secrets Of An Art Dealer

    Duveen

    The Artful Partners: The Secret Association of Bernard Berenson and Joseph Duveen

    (18:00) Numerous friends of Gagosian caution me not to mistake this merry-go-round of parties and galas and super yacht cruises for a life of leisure. This guy is always working. This motherfucker works 24/7. The parties are marketing showcases in disguise.

    (19:00) The Taste of Luxury: Bernard Arnault and the Moet-Hennessy Louis Vuitton Story by Nadege Forestier and Nazanine Ravai. (Founders #296)

    (19:30) The best way to raise the price of something is to say that you would never sell it.

    (23:00) If Gagosian possesses one secret weapon that has equipped him for success it might be his disinhibition.

    (33:00) The niche Gagosian pursued was seen —at the time —as low status. The secondary business was perceived as a backwater by dealers. It was considered a bit distasteful.

    (42:00) He disdains formal meetings. He finds bureaucracy and protocol dull. There is no hierarchy. There is Larry and then everyone else.

    (44:00) Gagosian reaps huge profits from asymmetries of information.

    (51:00) Art is just money on the walls.

    (54:00) David Geffen is still as liquid as the day is long.

    (56:00) The competitive drive of self-made billionaires does not go into remission once they’ve made their fortune.

    ----

    Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders by investing in a subscription to Founders Notes

    ----

    I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested, so my poor wallet suffers.” — Gareth

    Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

    Sam Zemurray (The Fish That Ate the Whale)

    Sam Zemurray (The Fish That Ate the Whale)

    What I learned from rereading The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King by Rich Cohen.

    ----

    I use EightSleep to get the best sleep of my life. Find out why EightSleep is loved by founders everywhere and get $150 off at eightsleep.com/founders/

    ----

    Vesto makes it easy for you to invest your businesses idle cash. Schedule a demo with Vesto's founder Ben and tell him David from Founders sent you. 

    Here's the legal disclosures to make the lawyers happy:

    Vesto Advisors, LLC (“Vesto”) is an SEC registered investment adviser. Registration with the SEC does not imply a certain level of skill or training. More information about Vesto and our partnership can be found here

    We are entitled to compensation for promoting Vesto Advisors, LLC. Accordingly, we have an incentive to endorse Vesto and its team and services. We are not current advisory clients of the Vesto. 

    ----

    Join my free email newsletter to get my top 10 highlights from every book

    ----

    [4:47] This story can shock and infuriate us, and it does. But I found it invigorating, too. It told me that the life of the nation was written not only by speech-making grandees in funny hats but also by street-corner boys, immigrant strivers, crazed and driven, some with one good idea, some with thousands, willing to go to the ends of the earth to make their vision real.

    [8:56] Tycoon's War: How Cornelius Vanderbilt Invaded a Country to Overthrow America's Most Famous Military Adventurer by Stephen Dando-Collins (Founders #55)

    [10:00] Unlike Vanderbilt's other adversaries William Walker was not afraid of Cornelius when he should have been.

    [12:21] The immigrants of that era could not afford to be children.

    [12:42] The Adventures of Herbie Cohen: World's Greatest Negotiator by Rich Cohen

    [12:54] He was driven by the same raw energy that has always attracted the most ambitious to America, then pushed them to the head of the crowd. Grasper, climber-nasty ways of describing this kid, who wants what you take for granted. From his first months in America, he was scheming, looking for a way to get ahead. You did not need to be a Rockefeller to know the basics of the dream: Start at the bottom, fight your way to the top.

    [14:01] There is no problem you can't solve if you understand your business from A to Z.

    [17:08]  Sam spotted an opportunity where others saw nothing.

    [18:17] As far as he was concerned, ripes were considered trash only because Boston Fruit and similar firms were too slow-footed to cover ground. It was a calculation based on arrogance. I can be fast where others have been slow. I can hustle where others have been satisfied with the easy pickings of the trade.

    [18:42] The kid on the streets is getting a shot at a dream. He sees the guy who gets rich and thinks, yep, that'll be me. He ignores the other stories going around.  // There's no way to quantify all that on a spreadsheet, but it's that dream of being the exception, the one who gets rich and gets out before he gets got that's the key to a hustler's motivation. Decoded by Jay Z. (Founders #238)

    [26:36] He was pure hustle.

    [28:15] Preston later spoke of Zemurray with admiration. He said the kid from Russia was closer in spirit to the banana pioneers than anyone else working. "He's a risk taker," Preston explained, “he's a thinker, and he's a doer.”

    [30:33] They don't write books about people that stopped there.

    [32:48] Titan: The Life of John D. Rockefeller by Ron Chernow (Founders #248) and John D: The Founding Father of the Rockefellers by David Freeman Hawke. (#254)

    [34:22] He seemed to strive for the sake of striving.

    [34:44] If you're on a mans side you stay on that mans side or you're no better than a goddamn animal.

    [35:11] The world is a mere succession of fortunes made and lost, lessons learned and forgotten and learned again.

    [39:41] A man whose commitment could not be questioned, who fed his own brothers to the jungle.

    [40:00] The Forgotten Highlander: An Incredible WWII Story of Survival in the Pacificby Alistair Urquhart.

    [41:02] Why the Founders of United Fruit were the Rockefellers of bananas.

    [47:23] He kept quiet because talking only drives up the price.

    [48:19] There are times when certain cards sit unclaimed in the common pile, when certain properties become available that will never be available again. A good businessman feels these moments like a fall in the barometric pressure. A great businessman is dumb enough to act on them even when he cannot afford to.

    [53:30] He believed in the transcendent power of physical labor—that a man can free his soul only by exhausting his body.

    [1:02:04] He disdained bureaucracy and hated paperwork. So seldom did he dictate a letter that he requires no full-time secretary.

    [1:04:01] He was respected because he understood the trade. By the time he was 40 he had served in every position. There was not a job he could not do nor a task he could not accomplish. He considered it a secret of his success.

    [1:05:02] Rick Rubin: In the Studio by Jake Brown. (Founders #245)

    [1:08:00] Zemurray was the founder, forever on the attack, at work, in progress, growing by trial and error.

    [1:10:44] Here was a self-made man, filled with the most dangerous kind of confidence: he had done it before and believed he could do it again. This gave him the air of a berserker, who says, If you're going to fight me, you better kill me. If you’ve ever known such a person, you will recognize the type at once. If he does not say much, it's because he considers small talk a weakness. Wars are not won by running your mouth. I'm describing a once essential American type that has largely vanished. Men who channeled all their love and fear into the business, the factory, the plantation, the shop.

    [1:11:44] Founder Mentality vs Big Company Mentality: When this mess of deeds came to light, United Fruit did what big bureaucracy-heavy companies always do: hired lawyers and investigators to search every file for the identity of the true owner. This took months. In the meantime, Zemurray, meeting separately with each claimant, simply bought the land from them both. He bought it twice paid a little more, yes, but if you factor in the cost of all those lawyers, probably still spent less than United Fruit and came away with the prize.

    [1:13:04] His philosophy: Get up first, work harder, get your hands in the dirt and blood in your eyes.

    [1:17:02] For every move there is a counter move. For every disaster there is a recovery. He never lost faith in his own agency.

    [1:17:57] A man focused on the near horizon of costs can sometimes lose sight of the far horizon of potential windfall.

    [1:20:22] You gentlemen have been fucking up this business long enough. I'm going to straighten it out.

    [1:23:03] In a time of crisis the mere evidence of activity can be enough to get things moving.

    [1:23:42] Zemurray was never heard to bitch or justify. He was a member of a generation that lived by the maxim: Never complain, never explain.

    [1:27:08] The Father of Spin: Edward L. Bernays and the Birth of Public Relationsby Larry Tye

    [1:28:14] He should link his private interest to a public cause.

    [1:29:32] In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.

    [1:32:28] Sam's defining characteristic was his belief in his own agency, his refusal to despair. No story is without the possibility of redemption; with cleverness and hustle, the worst can be overcome. I can't help but feel that we would do well by emulating Sam Zemurray–not the brutality or the conquest, but the righteous anger that sent the striver into the boardroom of laughing elites, waving his proxies, shouting, "You gentlemen have been fucking up this business long enough. I'm going to straighten it out.

    “I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested, so my poor wallet suffers. ”

    — Gareth

    Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

    #265 Becoming Steve Jobs: The Evolution of a Reckless Upstart into a Visionary Leader

    #265 Becoming Steve Jobs: The Evolution of a Reckless Upstart into a Visionary Leader

    What I learned from rereading Becoming Steve Jobs: The Evolution of a Reckless Upstart into a Visionary Leader by Brent Schlender and Rick Tetzeli

    ----

    Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders at Founders Notes.com

    ----

    [3:11] His mind was never a captive of reality.

    [5:16] A complete list of every Founders episode on Steve Jobs and the founders Steve studied: Steve Jobs’s Heroes

    [7:15] Steve Jobs and The Next Big Thing by Randall Stross (Founders #77)

    [9:05] Steve Job’s Commencement Address

    [9:40] Driven and curious, even when things were tough, he was a learning machine.

    [10:20] He learned how to manage himself.

    [12:45] Anything could be figured out and since anything could be figured out anything could be built.

    [14:10] It was a calculation based on arrogance. — The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King by Rich Cohen (Founders #255)

    [18:00] We were no longer aiming for the handful of hobbyists who liked to assemble their own computers. For every one of them there were a thousand people who would want the machine to be ready to run.

    [17:40] He was a free thinker whose ideas would often run against the conventional wisdom of any community in which he operated.

    [19:55] He had no qualms about calling anyone up in search of information or help.

    [20:40] I've never found anybody who didn't want to help me when I've asked them for help.

    I've never found anyone who's said no or hung up the phone when I called. I just asked.

    Most people never pick up the phone and call. Most people never ask.

    [21:50] First you believe. Then you work on getting other people to share your belief.

    [24:55] All the podcasts on Edwin Land:

    Land's Polaroid: A Company and the Man Who Invented It by Peter C. Wensberg (Founders #263)

    A Triumph of Genius: Edwin Land, Polaroid, and the Kodak Patent War by Ronald Fierstein (Founders #134)

    Land's Polaroid: A Company and the Man Who Invented It by Peter C. Wensberg (Founders #133)

    The Instant Image: Edwin Land and the Polaroid Experienceby Mark Olshaker (Founders #132)

    Insisting On The Impossible: The Life of Edwin Land and Instant: The Story of Polaroid (Founders #40)

    [25:00] My friend Frederick’s newsletter I was interviewed for

    [30:20] He was an extraordinary speaker and he wielded that tool to great effect.

    [31:00] Never underestimate the value of an ally. — Estée Lauder: A Success Story by Estée Lauder. (Founders #217)

    [32:50] If you go to sleep on a win you’re going to wake up with a loss.

    [33:00] Hard Drive: Bill Gates and the Making of the Microsoft Empire by James Wallace and Jim Erickson (Founders #140)

    [34:20] Software development requires very little capital investment. It is basically intellectual capital. The main cost is the labor required to design and test it. There's no need for expensive factories. It can be replicated endlessly for practically nothing.

    [38:10] He cared passionately and he never dialed it in.

    [39:45] To Pixar And Beyond: My Unlikely Journey with Steve Jobs to Make Entertainment History by Lawrence Levy (Founders #235)

    [42:58] Time carries most of the weight.

    [43:30] People that are learning machines and then refuse to quit are incredibly hard to beat. Steve jobs was a learning machine who refused to quit.

    [44:17] Steve Jobs and The Next Big Thing by Randall Stross (Founders #77)

    [49:40] Creativity Inc by Ed Catmull

    [50:30] There were times when the reactions against Steve baffled Steve.

    I remember him sometimes saying to me: Why are they upset?

    What that said to me was that he didn't intend to get that outcome. It was a lack of skill as opposed to meanness. A lack of skill of dealing with other people.

    [55:50] Creative thinking, at its best, is chalk full of failures and dead ends.

    [56:40] Successful people listen. Those that don’t listen don’t last long. —Michael Jordan: The Life by Roland Lazenby. (Founders #212) 

    [58:40] You can't go to the library and find a book titled The Business Model for Animation. The reason you can't is because there's only been one company Disney that's ever done it well, and they were not interested in telling the world how lucrative it was.

    [1:01:20] The company is one of the most amazing inventions of humans.

    [1:02:25] The only purpose for me in building a company is so that the company can make products. One is a means to the other.

    [1:04:00] Personal History by Katherine Graham (Founders #152)

    [1:10:11] Creative Selection: Inside Apple's Design Process During the Golden Age of Steve Jobs by Ken Kocienda

    [1:11:12] What am I focusing on that sets me apart from my competitors?

    [1:13:00] The channel? We lost $2 billion last year. Who gives a fuck about the channel?

    [1:15:21] Time carries most of the weight. Stay in the game as long as possible.

    [1:16:41] The information he'd glean would go into the learning machine that was his brain. Sometimes that's where it would sit, and nothing would happen. Sometimes he'd concoct a way to combine it with something else he'd seen, or perhaps to twist it in a way to benefit an entirely different project altogether. This was one of his great talents, the ability to synthesize separate developments and technologies into something previously unimaginable.

    ----

    Get access to the World’s Most Valuable Notebook for Founders at Founders Notes.com

    ----

    I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — Gareth

    Be like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

    #37 The Fish That Ate The Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King

    #37 The Fish That Ate The Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King

    What I learned from reading The Fish That Ate the Whale: The Life and Times of America's Banana King by Rich Cohen.

    ---

    Subscribe to listen to Founders Premium — Subscribers can listen to Ask Me Anything (AMA) episodes and every bonus episode. 

    ---

    When he arrived in America in 1891 at age fourteen, Zemurray was tall, gangly, and penniless. When he died in the grandest house in New Orleans sixty-nine years later, he was among the richest, most powerful men in the world. In between he worked as a fruit peddler, a banana hauler, a dockside hustler, and the owner of plantations on the Central American isthmus. He batted and conquered United Fruit, which was one of the first truly global corporations. [0:01]

    Zemurray’s life is a parable of the American dream. It told me that the life of the nation was not written only by speech-making grandees in funny hats but also by street-corner boys, immigrant strivers, crazed and driven, some with one good idea, some with thousands, willing to go to the ends of the earth to make their vision real. [0:31]

    How Sam Zemurray started: He’d arrived on the docks at the start of the last century with nothing. In the early years, he’d had to make his way in the lowest precincts of the fruit business, peddling ripes, bananas other traders dumped into the sea. He worked like a dog and defied the most powerful people in the country. [2:26] 

    He was driven by the same raw energy that has always attracted the most ambitious to America. You did not need to be a Rockefeller to know the basics of the dream: Start at the bottom, fight your way to the top. [3:35] 

    He believed in staying close to the action—in the fields with the workers, in the dives with the banana cowboys. You drink with a man, you learn what he knows. There is no problem you can’t solve if you understand your business from A to Z. [4:33] 

    His real life began when he saw that first banana. He devised a plan soon after: he would travel to where the fruit boats arrived from Central America, purchase a supply of his own, carry them back to Selma, and go into business. [6:24]

    See opportunity where others see nothing: The bananas that did not make the cut were designated “ripes” and heaped in a sad pile. These bananas, though still good to eat, would never make it to market in time. As far as the merchants were concerned, they were trash. Sam grew fixated on ripes, recognizing a product where others had seen only trash. [6:54] 

    As far as he was concerned, ripes were considered trash only because Boston Fruit were too slow-footed to cover ground. It was a calculation based on arrogance. I can be fast where others have been slow. I can hustle where others have been satisfied with the easy pickings of the trade. Zemurray stumbled upon a niche: overlooked at the bottom of the trade. [8:08]

    His business grows rapidly: Because Zemurray discovered a patch of fertile ground previously untilled, his business grew by leaps and bounds. In 1899, he sold 20,000 bananas. Within a decade he would be selling more than a million bananas a year. [9:30]

    An interesting story about Why was Zemurray’s company so profitable so quickly? Hint: No expenses. [13:47]

    Was there a precursor? Of course there was. The world is a mere succession of fortunes made and lost, lessons learned and forgotten and learned again. [17:59] 

    If you looked into his eyes you would see the machinery turning. Part of him is always figuring. You listen to a man like that. He knows something that can’t be taught. [20:19]

    Study those that came before you. Avoid their fate: He paid special attention to the old-timers who had been in the trade since the days of wind power. They were former big timers now just trying to survive. [20:40] 

    Zemurray goes deep into debt to buy as much land as possible: There are times when certain cards sit unclaimed in the common pile, when certain properties become available that will never be available again. A good businessman feels these moments like a fall in the barometric pressure. A great businessman is dumb enough to act on them when he cannot afford to. [23:13] 

    He believed in the transcendent power of physical labor—that a man can free his soul only by exhausting his body. [26:07] 

    Unlike most of his competitors, he understood every part of the business. He was contemptuous of banana men who spent their lives in the North, far from the plantations. Those schmucks, what do they know? They’re there, we’re here! [26:21] 

    These banana companies were so powerful that they overthrew presidents. Multiple times. [27:47] 

    Pretend you are Sam Zemurray. You’ve been summoned to Washington, called to account by the Secretary of State, warned. What do you do? Put your head down, shut up? Sit in a corner? No Sam Zemurray. [29:57] 

    He disdained bureaucracy, hated paperwork. He ran his entire business in his head. He will telephone division managers in half a dozen countries, correlate their reports in his head and reach his decision without touching a pencil. [34:06]

    He was respected because he understood the trade. By the time he was 40 he had served in every position. He had worked on the docks, on the ships and railroads, in the fields and warehouses. He had ridden the mules. He had managed the fruit and money, the mercenaries and government men. He understood the meaning of every change in the weather, the significance of every date on the calendar. There was not a job he could not do, nor a task he could not accomplish. He considered it a secret to his success. He refrained from anything that took him away from his work. [37:46] 

    Manager vs Maker Schedule [39:43] 

    He began to visit boatyards. He wanted to build a fleet so he would never again be dependent on other companies to haul his product. He wanted control. In everything. [40:32] 

    It was a contrast of styles: the executives who ran United Fruit had taken over from the founders and were less interested in risking than in persevering. Zemurray was the founder, forever on the attack, at work, in progress, growing by trial and error, ready to gamble it all. [42:53] 

    Here was a self-made man, filled with the most dangerous kind of confidence: he had done it before and believed he could do it again. This gave him the air of a berserker, who says, if you’re going to fight me, you better kill me. If you’ve ever known such a person, you will recognize the type at once. If he does not say much, it’s because he considers small talk a weakness. Wars are not won by running your mouth. I’m describing a once essential American type that has largely vanished. Men who channeled all their love and fear into the business, the factory, the plantation, the shop. [46:42] 

    Two different approaches to buying land. One entrepreneurial, one the opposite: United Fruit did what big bureaucracy-heavy companies always do, hired lawyers and investigators to find the identity of the true owner. This took months. In the meantime, Zemurray simply bought the land from them both. He bought it twice—paid a little more, yes, but if you factor in the cost of all those lawyers, probably still spent less than United Fruit and came away with the prize. [47:50]

    Why the book is called The Fish That Ate The Whale [49:46] 

    The greatness of Zemurray lies in the fact that he never lost faith in his ability to salvage a situation. Bad things happened to him as bad things happen to everyone, but unlike so many he was never tempted by failure. He never felt powerless or trapped. He was an optimist. He stood in constant defiance. For every move there is a countermove. For every disaster, there is a recovery. He never lost faith in his own agency. [51:45]

    You gentlemen have been fucking up this business long enough. I’m going to straighten it out. [58:07]

    Sam’s defining characteristic was his belief in his own agency, his refusal to despair. No story is without the possibility of redemption; with cleverness and hustle, the worst can be overcome. I can’t help but feel that we would do well by emulating Sam Zemurray. [1:04:05] 

    A list of all the books featured on Founders Podcast.