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    #1784 - Diana Rodgers & Robb Wolf

    en-usFebruary 25, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Unexpected challenges and the importance of resilienceDiscussing unexpected challenges like a snowstorm and the importance of resilience, the guests also emphasized the thin veneer of civilization and the benefits of a meat-based diet for some individuals.

      Both the guests and the host on The Joe Rogan Experience shared their experiences of dealing with unexpected challenges, such as a snowstorm that caused chaos in a city unprepared for winter weather. The discussion also touched upon the importance of resilience and the thin veneer of civilization that keeps essential services running. Additionally, they spoke about their personal experiences with diet and health, specifically the benefits of a meat-based diet for some individuals. The guests, Diana Rogers and Rob Wolf, promoted their book "Sacred Cow," which advocates for the consumption of high-quality meat as a healthier alternative to traditional diets. Overall, the conversation highlighted the importance of being prepared for unexpected events and the potential benefits of certain dietary choices.

    • The Carnivore Diet: A Radical Approach to Better HealthSome people with autoimmune or gut issues may benefit from the carnivore diet, which involves consuming only meat and animal products, leading to potential health improvements and remission of certain conditions. More research is needed to fully understand the risks and benefits.

      The carnivore diet, which involves consuming only meat and animal products, can lead to significant health improvements for some individuals, particularly those with autoimmune issues or gut problems. Despite criticism from some dietitians, proponents argue that the goal of any diet should be to feel better, look better, and perform better. Preliminary studies suggest that the carnivore diet can result in the remission of health issues and improvements in blood sugar and lipid levels for many people. The diet may not be suitable for everyone, and it's important to note that more research is needed to fully understand its risks and benefits. However, for those who are seriously ill and have tried other dietary interventions without success, the carnivore diet could be a reasonable starting point in their journey towards better health.

    • Mediterranean Diet: More Than Just a Food ListThe Mediterranean Diet isn't strictly defined, but focuses on cutting out processed foods and emphasizing whole, nutrient-dense foods from various food groups.

      There's no one-size-fits-all diet for optimal health, as people's bodies have different requirements based on their lifestyles. For instance, a Mediterranean diet emphasizes seafood, lean meat, low-fat dairy, legumes, and vegetables, but what people actually eat in Mediterranean countries can vary. The diet is more about cutting out processed foods. However, it's important to note that what's considered a Mediterranean diet can differ from region to region. Additionally, socioeconomic factors play a significant role in longevity, and social connections are crucial for overall health, on par with sleep and food. It's essential to consider individual needs and circumstances when making dietary choices.

    • Loneliness' Impact on Health and Enjoying Exercise and NutritionLoneliness negatively impacts health, exercise should be enjoyable, proper nutrition, especially protein-centric, is vital for health and longevity.

      Loneliness can have a significant impact on health and longevity, even surpassing the risks associated with diseases like cancer and heart disease. Exercise is crucial for overall health and quality of life, but it's essential to approach it as an enjoyable activity rather than just a calorie-burning chore. Proper nutrition, specifically a protein-centric diet, plays a vital role in maintaining muscle mass and overall health, especially as we age. The recommended daily protein intake is far below the optimal amount, and animal-based protein sources provide more bioavailable nutrients compared to plant-based options. To get the most out of your exercise routine and overall health regimen, focus on enjoying the process and prioritizing both physical activity and proper nutrition.

    • Meeting Protein Needs on a Plant-Based DietPlant-based diets can provide enough protein, but it's challenging to consume optimal essential amino acids. Vegan protein sources may require supplementation to meet muscle growth and anabolic signaling needs. A combination of plant-based protein and amino acid supplements can be a solution for vegan weightlifters or those preventing muscle loss.

      While plant-based diets can provide sufficient protein, it can be challenging to consume the optimal amount of essential amino acids, particularly the branch chain amino acids important for muscle growth and anabolic signaling. Four ounces of steak provides around 180 calories and 30 grams of protein, while the same portion of kidney beans offers only nine grams of protein and 150 calories. To get an equivalent amount of protein from kidney beans, one would need to consume over three times the amount, leading to significantly more calories. Plant-based protein sources like pea protein are an option, but extracting and isolating the protein can be complex and may require supplementation with exogenous amino acids. These supplements can be made vegan-friendly, but they often contain only some of the essential amino acids found in meat. For a vegan weightlifter or someone aiming to prevent muscle loss as they age, a combination of plant-based protein and amino acid supplements may be a viable solution to meet protein needs without overconsuming calories.

    • Animal sources outshine plant-based ones in essential nutrientsAnimal sources like sirloin steak provide more protein, essential amino acids, and vitamins like B12 than plant-based sources, enhancing nutrient absorption and bioavailability.

      While plant-based sources like kidney beans may have similar caloric values to animal sources like sirloin steak, they often fall short in terms of essential nutrients like protein and certain vitamins and minerals. For instance, sirloin steak contains significantly more protein and essential amino acids than kidney beans. Additionally, animal sources like steak are far superior in providing vitamins and minerals, especially vitamin B12, which is essential but rarely found in plant-based foods. Furthermore, the bioavailability of nutrients from animal sources is generally higher than that of plant sources. However, the complexities of nutrient absorption and conversion in the human body, influenced by genetics and gut health, add another layer of complexity to understanding optimal nutrition. Instead of focusing on genetic testing or perfecting individual diets, it may be simpler to pay attention to how we look, feel, and perform, and address any noticeable nutrient deficiencies through dietary adjustments.

    • Bioavailability of Proteins: Animal vs PlantAnimal proteins, particularly when cooked, have higher bioavailability, but contain more inflammatory fats and fat-soluble vitamins. Plant proteins have lower bioavailability but are richer in omega-3 fats and other micronutrients. Consider source, production methods, and personal needs when choosing between animal and plant proteins.

      The bioavailability of proteins varies depending on their source and cooking method. Animal-based proteins, particularly when cooked, have higher bioavailability compared to plant-based proteins. However, animal proteins also contain more fat-soluble vitamins, while plant proteins generally have more omega-6 inflammatory fats. Beef is more nutrient-dense than chicken per calorie, but chickens are often raised in industrial farming systems, which can have negative environmental impacts. It's important to consider the source and production methods of the meat we consume, as regenerative farming practices can have positive environmental benefits. The choice between animal and plant proteins ultimately depends on individual dietary needs and ethical considerations.

    • Understanding the Complexities of Farming PracticesThe food industry is complex and requires a nuanced understanding, recognizing the potential benefits of various farming practices rather than labeling them as good or bad.

      The food industry is complex, and there are nuances to various farming practices that don't fit neatly into the labels of "sustainable" or "industrial." For instance, some cattle are grass-fed but supplemented with grain during droughts or when finishing their growth. This grain often comes from the ethanol industry, which can be a valuable use of otherwise discarded resources. However, when it comes to byproducts like oat fiber from oat milk production, vegans have objected to its use in animal feed. The issue is that these byproducts can be toxic in industrial quantities and difficult to process for human consumption. Ultimately, the food system requires a more nuanced understanding and less black-and-white thinking. It's important to recognize the complexities and potential benefits of various farming practices, rather than labeling them as good or bad.

    • Bananas and Gut Health: Natural Defense MechanismsBananas have nutrients but their peels contain irritants. Fruit is beneficial, but some may prefer a meat-based diet for easier workouts and fewer cravings. Certain conditions like celiac disease and compulsive overeating may benefit from a carnivore diet.

      Bananas, although having some nutrients, contain substances like ponens in their peels that can irritate and damage the gut lining. This is a natural defense mechanism for the banana plant to prevent predation. The fruit itself does not contain these substances and is beneficial for humans as it encourages seed dispersal. Paul Saladino, also known as Carnivore MD, advocates for a meat-based diet supplemented with fruit for easier workouts and fewer cravings. Celiac disease requires avoiding all gluten, and some people may have additional dietary restrictions. Compulsive overeating can be a challenge to manage, with white foods often identified as a trigger. A carnivore diet may be an easier option for some individuals with conditions like rheumatoid arthritis.

    • Factors affecting gut health and autoimmune issuesHistorical food practices and traditional cooking methods can help mitigate gut health issues and autoimmune diseases by making foods less toxic and more digestible.

      The complex interplay of various factors, including antibiotics, environmental changes, food supply, and plant defense chemicals, contributes to autoimmune issues and gut health problems. The loss of gut barrier function and the immune system's response to food are key factors. Traditional food systems and cooking methods have historically helped mitigate some of these issues, but modern diets and lifestyles have led to an increase in the prevalence and severity of these health concerns. Plants do contain defense mechanisms that can be problematic for some individuals, but they should not be the sole cause of the issues we see today. The historical context and traditional food practices provide valuable insights into how to make foods less toxic and more digestible, which can help improve gut health and reduce the risk of autoimmune diseases.

    • The health and environmental implications of meat consumption are debatedStudies linking meat to increased risk of death face criticism for biased evidence and lack of transparency. Further research is needed to understand the true impact on health and the environment.

      The debate surrounding the health and environmental implications of meat consumption is complex and contentious. While some studies suggest that meat is linked to an increased risk of death, others argue that these findings are based on biased evidence and lack transparency. The global burden of disease report, which forms the basis of many food policies, has been criticized for its methodology and lack of evidence. Some believe that there is a motivation to consolidate food production globally by promoting meat reduction, with influential figures like Bill Gates advocating for meat alternatives and investing in related ventures. Ultimately, the science behind these claims is not clear-cut, and further research is needed to understand the true impact of meat consumption on health and the environment.

    • Questioning the Credibility of Plant-Based Food Companies' Health and Environmental AdviceIt's crucial to scrutinize the validity of health and environmental advice from plant-based food companies, as their profit-driven narratives may not align with ecological and nutritional complexities. Be wary of manipulative marketing and misinformation.

      The validity of public health and environmental advice, especially when it comes from wealthy individuals who don't practice what they preach, should be scrutinized. The discussion highlighted the issue of plant-based food companies, like Beyond Meat, giving health and environmental advice while having questionable practices and potentially misleading information. The speakers pointed out the discrepancy between the profit-driven narrative and the actual ecological and nutritional complexities. They also criticized the way these companies manipulate consumer perception through marketing and misinformation. Furthermore, they emphasized the importance of considering the full context and underlying motivations when evaluating such claims.

    • Plants and animals in grasslands interact for a healthy ecosystemAnimals graze on plants, fertilize soil, and provide nutrients to insects and birds, creating a natural cycle in grasslands. Regenerative agriculture can be a part of this cycle and promote biodiversity, while the current industrial food system is unsustainable and has an expiration date.

      The interaction between plants and animals in grasslands is essential for maintaining a healthy ecosystem. This relationship, which has existed for millions of years, involves animals grazing on plants, fertilizing the soil with their manure, and providing nutrients to various insects, birds, and other organisms. This is not a process of land or water theft, but rather a natural cycle that sustains the grasslands. Regenerative agriculture, which emphasizes pasture-based meat production, can be a part of this healthy ecosystem and even help bring back bird species. So, while the question of scalability is valid, it's important to remember that the current industrial food system, which relies on monoculture crops and heavy use of antibiotics in animal production, is unsustainable and has an expiration date. A more sustainable approach would involve integrating plant and animal production at a regional level, based on local resources, knowledge, and cultural values. This could help address various ecosystem issues and promote biodiversity.

    • The Costs of Industrializing FarmingIndustrial farming methods, including monocrop agriculture and factory farming, have led to ecological issues like the need for antibiotics, destruction of topsoil, and concerns about nutrient density in the long term. A more regenerative approach, like grass finishing and integrating plant and animal production, can help mitigate these issues.

      The use of industrial technology inputs in modern farming, particularly in monocrop agriculture and factory farming, while productive in the short term, comes with significant ecological costs. The industrialization of farming, which began in the 1940s with the mass production of fertilizers and the ramping up of animal agriculture in the 1970s, has led to the need for antibiotics and the destruction of topsoil. The use of chemicals in modern farming, including in the production of lab-grown meat alternatives, also raises concerns about nutrient density and the long-term sustainability of our food system. A more regenerative approach to farming, such as grass finishing and integrating plant and animal production, can help mitigate these issues and promote a healthier ecosystem for future generations.

    • Seed Oils vs Healthier OptionsSeed oils like soybean, canola, and corn oil can cause inflammation and lead to nutrient deficiencies due to ultra-processing and high omega-6 content. Healthier options like olive oil and avocado oil are rich in monounsaturated fats and safer for cooking and salad dressings.

      While seed oils like soybean, canola, and corn oil may seem like a convenient and cost-effective source of calories, they can cause inflammation and lead to nutrient deficiencies due to their ultra-processing and high omega-6 content. These oils are often rancid by the time they reach consumers and require deodorizers and coloring to mask their unpleasant qualities. In contrast, healthier options like olive oil and avocado oil are rich in monounsaturated fats and relatively low in omega-6s, making them safer choices for cooking and salad dressings. However, the push for industrial food systems to be adopted in developing countries, which often rely on seed oils, raises concerns about dependence, affordability, and access to essential nutrients. Additionally, the production of fake meat alternatives using seed oils and kitchen chemistry techniques adds to the overall concern regarding the long-term health implications of these foods.

    • The Debate Around Plant-Based Meat AlternativesThe Impossible Burger and similar plant-based meat alternatives have gained popularity but face controversy over their production methods, taste authenticity, and nutritional claims. Critics argue high carb and sodium content in buns and additives, while some consumers raise ethical concerns over use of GMOs and heavy processing.

      The debate around plant-based meat alternatives, such as the Impossible Burger, continues to be a topic of discussion due to their controversial production methods and the authenticity of their taste and nutritional claims. Some, like Paul Saludino on TikTok, have gained massive followings by creating content around the creation and consumption of these alternatives. However, critics argue that these products are not as healthy as they claim, with high carbohydrate and sodium content in the buns and other additives. Additionally, the production process of these alternatives, such as the use of genetically modified organisms and heavy processing, raises ethical concerns for some consumers. Ultimately, the decision to consume these products is a personal one, and it's essential to consider both the potential health benefits and ethical implications.

    • Reducing carbon emissions from plant-based meat production oversimplifies food system complexitiesA holistic approach to understanding the food system's impact on the environment is necessary, as reducing carbon emissions from plant-based meat production overlooks the natural carbon cycle in animal agriculture and the broader ecosystem functions of different farming methods.

      The focus on reducing carbon emissions from plant-based meat production is oversimplifying the complexities of the food system. While it's true that plant-based meat alternatives may have lower carbon footprints than animal-based meat in some cases, the carbon cycle in animal agriculture is part of a natural process. Methane emissions from cattle, for instance, are not just carbon in the atmosphere but are part of a cycle that involves grass growth and carbon sequestration. Ignoring the broader ecosystem functions of different farming methods can lead to misguided policies and practices. For example, considering eradicating methane-producing animals like moose or shellfish to reduce carbon emissions is an extreme measure that overlooks the importance of these organisms in their ecosystems. Instead, a more holistic approach to understanding the food system and its impact on the environment is necessary.

    • The Idealization of Vegan Diets Overlooks Important Nutritional Role of MeatCultural perception of meat as unhealthy can lead to malnutrition, especially for pregnant women and children. Vegan sources of B12 can block absorption of true B12, potentially causing irreversible brain damage in infants. A healthy vegan lifestyle requires careful planning and attention to nutrient intake.

      The cultural perception of meat as a scapegoat, with vegan diets being idealized as pure and healthy, can overlook the important role animal source foods play in human nutrition. Meat is a powerful food with significant cultural significance, but it's also essential for providing necessary nutrients, especially for pregnant women and growing children. The idealization of vegetarian cultures can lead to malnutrition, as seen in documented cases of wealthy, educated vegan families experiencing nutrient deficiencies. Moreover, the health benefits are not the primary driving factor for many people adopting vegan diets, as some will continue to suffer personally for their ideological beliefs. A significant percentage of vegetarians will consume meat when under the influence of alcohol. Additionally, vegan sources of B12, such as algae and spirulina, provide an analog that can block the absorption of true B12, potentially leading to irreversible brain damage in infants if not supplemented properly. Therefore, it's crucial to consider the challenges of growing a human on a vegan diet and the potential risks associated with relying on analogs for essential nutrients. While it's possible for some individuals to maintain a healthy vegan lifestyle, it requires careful planning and attention to nutrient intake.

    • Evidence on Nutritional Deficiencies in Vegan Diets is InconclusiveWhile some nutrients may be more challenging to obtain in a vegan diet, the evidence for deficiencies is not definitive. Synthetic B12 supplements are recognized by the body as effective, and ethical considerations around food sources are complex.

      While there is a case for potential nutritional deficiencies in vegan diets, particularly in children, the evidence is not conclusive. The only randomized control trial conducted in Kenya showed that children who consumed a meat snack performed better than those who received milk or additional calories. However, the source of B12 in non-vegan supplements is unclear, and synthetic versions may be sufficient for vegans. The body recognizes synthetic B12 as the real nutrient, even if it's not naturally derived. Additionally, some nutrients, like amino acids, exist in left-handed and right-handed forms, with the right-handed forms generally being inactive in our physiology. The idea of bugs as a food source for vegetarians and vegans is intriguing but not universally accepted. Our perception of the value of life forms varies based on size and cuteness, and the ethical implications of killing smaller organisms versus larger ones are complex. The production methods of animal agriculture, such as regenerative agriculture versus monocropping, also impact the overall impact on life and the environment.

    • Plants have complex behaviors and relationshipsOur food choices impact ecosystems and involve taking lives, from plants to insects, with monocrops and animal feed production raising sustainability concerns.

      Our food choices have consequences, and the production of crops like corn and soy involves taking lives and disrupting ecosystems. The idea of a zero-sum game where no life is lost is an oversimplification. Plants, despite being stationary, exhibit complex behaviors and relationships with other organisms. However, the distinction we make between plant and animal life allows us to consume them. The production of monocrops like corn and soy also involves the destruction of habitats and the use of pesticides and insecticides. While bugs can be a source of nutrients, their mass production for animal feed requires resources and raises questions about land use and sustainability. Cricket farms, in particular, can be unsanitary and resource-intensive. Ultimately, our food choices have far-reaching impacts, and it's essential to consider the consequences of our actions on the natural world.

    • Crickets: A Sustainable Source of ProteinCrickets are a nutrient-dense protein source, rich in vitamins, minerals, and fiber. They can help reduce food waste and offer a more efficient food system, but individuals with shellfish allergies may react to them due to their similarities. Consuming contaminated cricket protein can lead to serious health risks.

      Crickets are an emerging source of sustainable and nutrient-dense protein. They are rich in vitamins, minerals, and fiber, with a protein profile similar to that of animals. However, individuals with shellfish allergies may also be allergic to crickets due to their close relation. The production of cricket protein can help reduce food waste by utilizing expired food that would otherwise be discarded. Despite cultural and logistical challenges, allocating a portion of food waste towards cricket and mealworm production could lead to a more efficient and vegan-friendly food system. It's also important to note the potential risks of consuming contaminated food, as seen in the case of the man who ate bad Chinese food and had to undergo leg amputations.

    • A case of food poisoning and the importance of food safetyConsuming contaminated food can lead to severe symptoms and health complications, emphasizing the importance of food safety and being cautious with leftovers

      The New York Post is known for publishing sensational stories accompanied by compelling images. However, during a recent search, the speaker encountered difficulty finding the correct story with the desired images, leading to a discussion about a case of food poisoning. The patient had consumed leftovers from a Chinese restaurant and developed severe symptoms, including a diffuse rash and organ failure. The incident serves as a reminder of the potential dangers of consuming contaminated food and the importance of being vigilant about food safety. Despite the speaker's initial confusion, they eventually found the correct story and images, which depicted the patient's distressing condition. The case highlights the importance of being cautious when consuming leftovers and the potential consequences of neglecting food safety.

    • Nutritional Implications of Dietary Choices for Disadvantaged Populations and Developing ChildrenWhen discussing dietary choices, it's crucial to consider their nutritional implications, especially for disadvantaged populations and developing children. A balanced approach that prioritizes optimizing sleep, nutrition, and gut health is essential for individuals seeking peak physical performance and overall well-being.

      While ethical considerations are important when discussing dietary choices, it's essential to consider the nutritional implications, especially for disadvantaged populations and developing children. The debate around plant-based diets versus animal products becomes more nuanced when discussing elite athletes, as their genetic advantages and potential use of performance-enhancing substances can complicate the discussion. A balanced approach that prioritizes optimizing sleep, nutrition, and gut health is crucial for individuals looking to maximize their physical performance and overall well-being. The ethical debate surrounding food choices should be grounded in a thorough understanding of the nutritional implications and environmental considerations to foster an intelligent and informed discussion.

    • Comparing the Carbon Footprint of Plant-Based and Traditional BurgersRegenerative farming can have a net carbon negative footprint, but producing plant-based burgers requires more energy and emits more carbon. Sustainability lies in utilizing underused land efficiently through regenerative agriculture.

      While football injuries are unpredictable, the environmental impact of plant-based burgers versus traditional beef burgers has been studied extensively. According to the discussion, a regenerative farm like White Oak Pastures has a net carbon negative footprint, meaning it absorbs more carbon than it emits throughout the entire process. On the other hand, producing plant-based burgers requires more energy and emits more carbon than traditional beef or chicken production. However, there's potential for sustainability through regenerative agriculture, which can utilize underutilized land more efficiently and support healthier soil and grass. The numbers suggest that the U.S. has the land to finish raising cattle on grass, and it's not the entire life of the cow that's spent in a feedlot. The debate continues on which option is more sustainable and beneficial for the environment.

    • Pastured Meat: Nutritionally Superior or Just a Marketing Gimmick?While pastured meat has some nutritional advantages, its nutritional profile is not drastically superior to conventional meat. Ethical and environmental arguments for grass-finished meat are strong.

      While pastured meat may have some nutritional advantages over conventional meat, such as a slightly higher omega-3 content, the difference is not significant enough to make it a nutritional powerhouse. Pastured dairy, wild-caught seafood, and eggs are far more nutritious. The color and leanness of pastured meat are the only noticeable differences. The ethical and environmental arguments for grass-finished meat are strong, but its nutritional profile is not drastically superior. The methane emissions from cows are a concern, but a full lifecycle analysis considering the benefits of pasture farming, such as carbon sequestration and reversing desertification, often shows that the pasture process wins. Americans consume relatively little meat per capita, with two ounces of beef and twice that amount of chicken being the average daily intake.

    • Sustainability and Health Implications of Dietary ChoicesEncouraging adequate protein intake and reducing overall calorie consumption through global public health food policy can address health and environmental challenges posed by metabolically driven diseases like diabetes.

      The sustainability and health implications of dietary choices are complex issues. While a diet high in animal protein, particularly from sources like beef, can have negative environmental impacts and potential health risks, under-eating protein may lead to overeating of other unhealthy foods. The rising prevalence of metabolically driven diseases, such as diabetes, poses significant health and economic challenges. Addressing these issues may involve a global public health food policy that encourages adequate protein intake and reduces overall calorie consumption. The carbon footprint of diseases like diabetes should also be considered when evaluating the environmental impact of different diets. Ultimately, finding a sustainable and healthy diet requires careful consideration of various factors, including individual nutritional needs, environmental impact, and cultural practices.

    • Understanding the impact of food combinations on our bodies and mindsConsidering the ideal diet and its sustainable production is crucial, while promoting a balanced and informed perspective on nutrition and sustainability is essential for making informed decisions.

      Our brains and bodies respond differently to various food combinations, and understanding this can help us make more sustainable and satisfying dietary choices. The discussion also touched upon the importance of addressing the ideal diet and its sustainable production, rather than focusing on unsustainable criticisms of certain food groups like meat. Additionally, it's crucial to consider the context and facts behind such statements, as well as the potential biases and agendas that may influence public opinions. In essence, promoting a balanced and informed perspective on nutrition and sustainability is essential for making informed decisions.

    • Decentralizing Food Production for SustainabilityDecentralizing food production through integrating animals, reducing chemicals, and selling directly to consumers can lead to sustainable practices, but requires more land and resources.

      Our current food production system, with its emphasis on maximizing output and efficiency, comes at a cost to the environment and our health. Decentralizing food production, such as integrating animals into the farm system and reducing the use of harmful chemicals, can lead to more sustainable practices. However, this approach may require more land and a shift towards selling directly to consumers rather than as commodities. While technological advancements may make some aspects of food production more efficient, such as lab-grown meat, the high cost of production currently limits its scalability. Ultimately, we need to reconsider our priorities and values in the food industry, moving beyond just maximizing production to prioritize sustainability and health.

    • Lab-grown meat vs. traditional farming: Challenges and benefitsLab-grown meat presents tech challenges, while traditional farming offers job creation, community revitalization, and a deep understanding of local conditions.

      Lab-grown meat, while technologically intriguing, faces significant challenges in scaling up production efficiently and sustainably compared to traditional farming methods, such as raising livestock on grasslands. The discussion also highlighted the importance of small-scale, local farming and its potential impact on job creation and community revitalization. Additionally, the conversation touched upon the complexity of farming, which goes beyond the simple label of "farmer," requiring constant problem-solving and a deep understanding of local conditions. Furthermore, the conversation hinted at the potential long-term economic benefits of shifting back towards more agrarian settings for both employment and quality of life. However, there are still missing pieces to the puzzle, such as the discussion of the environmental impact and nutritional value of different food sources.

    • The demonization of meat and plant-based dietsHistorical biases and financial incentives may have influenced the perception of meat as unhealthy, but it's important to consider the scientific evidence and the role of various industries in shaping public opinion.

      The demonization of meat and the promotion of plant-based diets as healthier options may not be based on sound science, but rather on financial incentives and historical biases. The corruption of science, as discussed in the conversation, dates back to the 1960s when studies funded by the sugar industry falsely blamed saturated fat for heart disease, leading to the fear of saturated fat and the consumption of low-fat processed foods. This shift, in turn, benefited the ultra-processed food industry and big oil, as the blame was put on meat consumers. Additionally, the history of vegetarianism and the founding of the dietetics profession by the Seventh-day Adventists further influenced the perception of meat as unhealthy. However, with 95% of the planet consuming meat, it's important to note that the margins in the meat industry are small, and the large meat packers are also major investors in plant-based meat alternatives. When writing about this topic, the authors expected pushback from both sides but aimed to be as honest and factual as possible, despite the potential for uniformly pissing off readers.

    • Beyond grass-fed meat for food sustainability and nutritionExploring alternative nutrient-rich foods for sustainability and considering complexities instead of being dogmatic about one solution.

      The debate around food sustainability and nutrition should not be limited to the grass-fed meat model. There are other nutrient-rich foods that can be upcycled and utilized, especially in disadvantaged situations where access to high-quality meat is limited. However, this perspective has faced pushback from some in the grass-fed community who hold a strict ideology that prioritizes grass-fed meat above all else. This ideology, rooted in both ethical and environmental concerns, has led to initiatives like Meatless Mondays and vegan school lunches in some areas, which can have unintended negative consequences for children's nutrition. It's essential to approach these discussions with an open mind, considering all the complexities and nuances, rather than being dogmatic about any one solution.

    • The complexities of the meat debateExploring various perspectives on meat consumption, rather than relying on simplistic answers, is essential for understanding the issue's complexity.

      The debate surrounding meat consumption is complex and multifaceted, with various interests and perspectives influencing the narrative. It's rare for people to question their beliefs and explore alternative viewpoints, especially when it comes to diet and ethics. The prevalence of the plant-based narrative, pushed by large interests and ethical cheerleaders, creates a challenging environment for advocates of other perspectives, such as the benefits of sustainable meat production. The authors of the book "Sacred Cow" faced numerous obstacles in getting their message out, from being turned down by publishers to limited distribution channels. Despite the challenges, it's important to consider the complexity of the issue and the potential benefits of various perspectives, rather than relying on simplistic, extreme answers.

    • The impact of modern agriculture on animals and the environmentModern agriculture practices harm animals and the environment, but focusing on humane and sustainable methods can minimize negative impact.

      Our current agricultural practices, focused on monoculture and mass production, are having detrimental effects on the environment and contributing to a loss of biodiversity. This is not only true for the land but also for the animals raised for food. The animals we consume are often kept in confined spaces with limited physical activity and fed large amounts of grain. This not only harms the animals but also contributes to the issue of environmental degradation. However, instead of continuing to argue about the morality of animal consumption, we should focus on making the process as humane and sustainable as possible. By doing so, we can minimize the negative impact on the environment and ensure that the animals are treated ethically. Ultimately, the choice is ours: we can be the death that contributes to the destruction of life or the death that is part of the natural cycle and helps make life stronger.

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    Freeway Rick Ross is a former eighties drug kingpin who is now an author, motivational speaker, and community advocate. www.freewayrickyross.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

    Related Episodes

    Growing cranberries and sustainability: Episode 66

    Growing cranberries and sustainability: Episode 66

    Cranberries! One of the stars of autumn tables evokes beautiful images, wonderful scents, and a distinct taste. We discover how cranberries are grown and harvested sustainably in this episode, plus why we shouldn’t be afraid of the “sugar” in these nutritious berries. We also learn how a cranberry bog in Massachusetts looks different than a cranberry bog in Wisconsin.

    Michele and Eliz are joined by Dawn Gates-Allen, a fourth generation cranberry grower, who believes that the future of agriculture is through continuing education. Collaborating with schools, realtors, universities and stewardship is a foundation; culminating these while not being afraid to embrace things that are tough will help raise awareness of what agriculture offers to our environment and at your table. Ultimately food education and good decision making is what makes us healthy and well balanced.

    Key points:

    How are cranberries grown?

    • What you see on the commercials is a glamorized version of harvest. Cranberry bogs are flooded for harvest, but aren’t grown in water.
    • Cranberries don’t like to have “wet feet.” Cranberries are grown on a vine with shallow roots.
    • Durning growing season the cranberry bog looks like a lovely golf course with ditches for irrigation.
    • Water is recycled and stored in reservoirs and ponds - It is very scenic.
    • One of the largest managers of water in the state.

    How does technology help make the farm more sustainable?

    • Remote control irrigation is used to provide the right amount of water at the right time.
    • Everything is done by satellite through solar powered sensors.
    • Sensors report the temperature and soil moisture conditions in the bog.
    • Water is used to protect plants from both frost and heat.

    How does a cranberry bog in Massachusetts look different than a cranberry bog in Wisconsin?

    • When cranberries farms in Massachusetts started in the 1880s, they were built in the wetlands around rocks and trees.  They are unevenly shaped and require more labor to harvest
    • Farms in Wisconsin are more open and rectangular.  They are built with dykes around them so that machinery can be used to harvest.

    What about all the sugar in cranberries?

    • As with any food, portion control is important.
    • Cranberries have lots of health benefits.
    • Lots of recipes call for whole, unsweetened cranberries.

    Much of Dawn’s work with realtors is educating them and new home owners about what to expect living near a working farm.

    Cranberry farm familyThree tips to overcome Food Bullying:

    • Keep an open mind.
    • Know your sources.
    • Freeze cranberries. They keep up a year!  Don’t let the sugar thing worry you.

    Links:

    Dawn Gates-Allen Website: www.cranberries.org

    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MassCranberries

    Twitter: twitter.com/MassCranberries

    Food Bullying Podcast’s Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/foodbullyingpodcast

    Food Bullying with Michele Payn: http://foodbullying.com

    Embrace Your Heart with Eliz Greene: http://www.embraceyourheart.com/

    Why does food bullying hurt farmers?

    Why does food bullying hurt farmers?

    There’s a lot of pressure on farmers to do the best that they can to not only protect our environment, but also have a sustainable business. Most of the time, we are not giving farmers space to thrive, but often dictating what they should and shouldn’t do.

    Theresia Gillie is a soybean and wheat farmer from Minnesota, a county commissioner, and serves on the Minnesota Soybean Growers Association board and is a past president. She helps listeners understand what it is like to be a farmer, and how food bullying hurts the families growing our food.

    Key Points:

    • What’s it’s like to be a farmer
    • Challenges that farmers face
    • Tips on how to overcome food bullying

    The Conversation:

    (04:12): What is harvesting like for a farmer?

     (06:11): The most significant stress faced by farmers

     (11:46): How are farmers taking care of the environment?

     (14:46): How do farmers select the seed to use?

     (17:23): How do farmers feel when we believe and feel like they are not doing the right thing?

     (23:35): Tips on how to avoid food bullying

    Theresia GillieFabulous Quotes:

    “Be grateful that the food in the grocery store doesn’t cost you half of your living.”

    “What you’re getting in your grocery store is safe.”

    “Trust your growers because we’re really good at what we do.”

    “Variety is really the best and safest way to have to healthy eating.”

    Links:

    Soil Matters CSA II / Marion Nestle

    Soil Matters CSA II / Marion Nestle

    Soil Matters CSA
    One of the greatest threats facing farmers today and hence facing our own food supply is the financial rewards found in the field of farming, rewards that are seemingly more often then not, in the negative digits. Many argue that food and agriculture should be removed from global trade regimes. One of the reasons for such an idea comes from a belief that farmers themselves should not have to bear the financial risks associated with such a volatile industry, and all people should equally share such risks as food is a need and not a desire. One alternative to the dominant food system is the model of Community Supported Agriculture, whereby a set number of people within a city or town become a member of a farm, and in doing so pay the farmers at the beginning of the season when farmers need the money most. Members who join are then guaranteed what is most often a weekly box of fresh produce. As many farmers know all too well how easily an entire crop can be lost due to weather, pests or unforeseen circumstances, members of a CSA share this risk with the farmer and on the other side can also share in the abundance. Just outside of Nelson, British Columbia, two intrepid farmers who only began farming a few years ago, have launched a CSA this year. Host Jon Steinman chose to become a member and document the process of creating a CSA and the potential for such a model to reconnect people with their food and provide farmers with a more secure source of income.

    Part II
    On September 8, Soil Matters hosted a members potluck and discussion. Deconstructing Dinner's Jon Steinman facilitated the discussion where members shared their experiences of becoming part of a CSA. How has joining a farm changed eating patterns? How has working on the farm reshaped our connection to food? What changes should be made to the administration and functioning of the CSA for next year? Marion Nestle - "The Ethics of Food Marketing" Marion Nestle is the Paulette Goddard Professor of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University, in the department that she chaired from 1988 through 2003. She also holds appointments as Professor of Sociology in NYU's College of Arts and Sciences and as a Visiting Professor of Nutritional Sciences in the College of Agriculture at Cornell University. Her degrees include a Ph.D. in molecular biology and an M.P.H. in public health nutrition, both from the University of California, Berkeley. Her research focuses on the politics of food with an emphasis on the role of food marketing as a determinant of dietary choice. She is the author of "Food Politics: How the Food Industry Influences Nutrition and Health" (University of California Press, 2002) and "Safe Food: Bacteria, Biotechnology, and Bioterrorism" (University of California Press, 2003), and is co-editor of "Taking Sides: Clashing Views on Controversial Issues in Food and Nutrition" (McGraw-Hill/Dushkin, 2004). Her new book, "What to Eat," was published in May, 2006. In November 2006, Princeton University hosted a five-part conference exploring the broad and compelling issues and ethical dilemmas surrounding food production in the U.S. and the choices individuals make regarding the food they eat. Marion Nestle was invited to speak on "The Ethics of Food Marketing". We hear segments from her presentation.

    #401 - Lies About Food with The Angry Chef

    #401 - Lies About Food with The Angry Chef
    Our food system is full of lies, politics and half truths, in the interest of money things aren't quite what they seem, and one chef is angry about it, Anthony Warner, aka The Angry Chef. After I read his book I was intrigued to get him on the show, and I wasn't disappointed. We discussed veganism, our food network, sustainability, food and what it actually is, policy, obesity, and much more. Search for 'The Angry Chef' online and on amazon to find Anthony and his brilliant work.

    Episode 63: Diana Rodgers, RD

    Episode 63: Diana Rodgers, RD

    Welcome to the Human Performance Outliers Podcast with hosts Dr. Shawn Baker and Zach Bitter. For this episode, we welcome Diana Rodgers onto the show. Diana is a Registered Dietitian and Licensed Dietitian Nutritionist. She hosts sustainabledish.com, a popular website that highlights sustainable animal and plant farming. She host The Sustainable Dish Podcast, farmer, and author. Diana joined us for a deep dive into the world of sustainable farming and what it means to our future.

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    • hpopodcast@gmail.com