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    #301 — The Politics of Unreality: Ukraine and Nuclear Risk

    enOctober 25, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Community Support Changes the Course of Events for Meg Smaker's DocumentaryThe power of community support can generate significant funds for projects, as shown by Meg Smaker's GoFundMe campaign, which raised over $600,000 in a week after being canceled.

      The power of community support can significantly change the course of events, as demonstrated by the overwhelming response to Meg Smaker's GoFundMe campaign after being canceled for her documentary. Sam Harris discussed his podcast episode with Meg, where she was unfairly targeted and defenestrated by festivals due to identitarian grievance entrepreneurs. Despite facing initial financial struggles, the support from listeners led to over $600,000 in donations in just one week. Harris also addressed Kanye West's recent antisemitic remarks, which he found deeply concerning due to their widespread acceptance and lack of pushback from the artist's fans and interviewers. Harris received a torrent of hateful and cynical responses on Twitter for speaking out against West's antisemitic comments, highlighting the prevalence of such views in certain quarters.

    • Criticizing Ideas vs Targeting PeopleIt's crucial to distinguish between criticizing ideas and targeting people based on their race or ethnicity. While criticizing harmful ideas is important, it's equally important to avoid targeting individuals or groups based on their identity.

      While it's important to criticize harmful ideas, it's crucial to distinguish between criticizing ideas and targeting people based on their race or ethnicity. The speaker has criticized certain aspects of Islam as a system of ideas, but this does not imply xenophobia or bigotry towards Muslims as people. The speaker also supports the idea of welcoming moderate Muslims into society and has condemned antisemitism, which was evident in Kanye West's statements. The speaker was surprised by the backlash against his criticism of Kanye's antisemitism and the celebration of such views. The speaker's conversation with Timothy Snyder, an expert on fascist propaganda, highlighted the importance of addressing and condemning such harmful ideologies while maintaining a distinction between criticizing ideas and targeting people.

    • Understanding the War in Ukraine: Listening to ExpertsSeeking insights from experts like historian Timothy Snyder is crucial for understanding complex geopolitical situations, such as the war in Ukraine, amidst the noise of unqualified voices on social media.

      It's essential to distinguish between experts and non-experts when interpreting information about complex geopolitical situations, such as the war in Ukraine. Amidst the increasing noise from unqualified voices on social media, having genuine experts share their insights is crucial. Timothy Snyder, a renowned historian and expert on Ukraine and Russia, offers a deeply informed perspective on the conflict based on his extensive research and personal experiences. He emphasizes the active role Ukrainian citizens play in the war and the fundamental features of Ukrainian society that contribute to their resilience. The cacophony of unqualified voices on various topics, including the war in Ukraine, is the new norm. However, seeking expertise and accurate information is vital for understanding complex issues and making informed decisions.

    • Understanding the Complexity of the Ukraine-Russia ConflictThe Ukraine-Russia conflict is a complex issue that requires a nuanced understanding of historical context and decisions made by all parties involved, not a simplistic good vs. evil narrative.

      The ongoing conflict between Ukraine and Russia is a complex issue that involves the agency of various countries and their decisions, and it's essential to avoid oversimplifying the situation or overlooking the role of smaller nations in international affairs. The idea that the US or EU is solely responsible for the crisis or that Putin's actions are reasonable is a misrepresentation of reality. The history of the conflict goes back many years, and it's crucial to understand the decisions made by all parties involved. The assumption that America and Russia are the only real players in the situation and that Ukraine is insignificant is a form of imperialistic thinking that overlooks the agency of smaller nations. The conflict in Ukraine is not a simple matter of good versus evil, and it requires a nuanced understanding of the historical context and the decisions made by all parties involved. It's essential to avoid oversimplifying the situation and to recognize the role of smaller nations in shaping international affairs.

    • Historical complexities of Ukraine, Crimea, and RussiaDespite Russian claims, the border between Ukraine and Russia was agreed upon in 1991. Historical justifications for invasion are not valid.

      The historical relationship between Ukraine, Crimea, and Russia is more complex than what is often portrayed. Contrary to Russian claims, the border between Ukraine and Russia was agreed upon by both parties in 1991, and history does not provide a justification for invading another country's territory. The history of Crimea includes various political entities, but it was not always under Russian control. The Crimean Tatars, who were once the majority population, were forcibly deported in 1944, leading to a significant demographic shift. In 1956, Crimea was transferred from the Russian Soviet Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic for practical reasons, not due to any historical claim. Therefore, it's essential to recognize that history and law are separate, and imperial claims based on history are not valid justifications for invasion.

    • Historical narratives vs. legal realities in CrimeaHistorical narratives can distort truth, ignoring genocide and imperial claims. The fall of the Soviet Union was a Russian internal affair, and Ukraine's existence as a nation was recognized beforehand.

      The historical narratives we tell about events like the Soviet Union's gift of Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 or the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991 can be vastly different from the legal and political realities that enforce national borders. Crimea's perceived Russian identity is an imperial and incorrect interpretation of history, which overlooks the genocide of its native population. The disjunction between historical narratives and legal realities is a complex issue, and it's essential to start analyzing it from a reasonable starting point, such as the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. Contrary to Putin's claims, the end of the Soviet Union was not an American plot but the result of internal Russian Federation actions. The Soviet Union's recognition of Ukraine as a nation in 1922 is a testament to its existence as a distinct entity. Understanding these historical facts is crucial for navigating current geopolitical tensions.

    • The evolution of Putin's thinking on Ukrainian independencePutin's justification for military action against Ukraine is framed as denazification, disregarding Ukraine's democratic government and sovereignty.

      Despite Ukraine's suffering under Soviet policies and the existence of a Ukrainian nation being acknowledged throughout the Soviet era, the notion of a separate Ukrainian state has continued to gain support. This was a consensus when the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, and Ukraine held a referendum in which a vast majority voted for independence. Putin's thinking on this matter has evolved in a radical way, framing his actions against Ukraine as a war of denazification, despite the Ukrainian president being Jewish. Some high-profile figures in the US and Europe have made statements that downplay Russia's aggression and present Ukraine as a provocative actor, which is ethically questionable and morally equivalent to Russian despotism. This perspective ignores the fundamental differences between democracy and authoritarianism and the importance of respecting the sovereignty of independent states.

    • Putin's Rule: From Dictatorship of Law to Politics of SpectaclePutin's rule has shifted from a supposed rule of law to a politics of spectacle, justifying actions through special destiny and chosen enemies, leading to economic inequality and a dysfunctional state, and posing a challenge to international order.

      Russian President Vladimir Putin's rule has evolved from a supposed "dictatorship of the law" to a politics of spectacle, where Russia's actions are justified through a belief in its special destiny and a choice of enemies. Putin's ideas, influenced by Russian fascist thinkers, view strength and imagination as the basis for politics, leading to a normalization of endless conflict and the arbitrary choice of enemies, such as Ukraine and NATO. Putin's rule is marked by extreme economic inequality and a dysfunctional state, allowing him to spread his ideas and influence around the world. Despite claims of fear towards NATO, Russia is not actually afraid of it. Instead, Putin defines Russia as the anti-Ukraine to give meaning to his rule. This evolution of Putin's rule towards fascist ideas poses a significant challenge to international order.

    • Russia's Control Over Ukraine, Not Fear of NATO Drives Putin's ActionsPutin's regime seeks control over Ukraine, contradicting the friendly buffer notion, leading to increased NATO interest and a weakened Russia

      Russia's actions towards Ukraine are not driven by a fear of invasion from NATO or the European Union. Instead, Putin's regime seeks control over Ukraine, which involves occupying the country and replacing its leadership. This desire for control contradicts the notion of a friendly buffer and is a significant departure from the democratic process, where sovereign states choose to join international institutions based on their own populations' decisions. Russia's invasion of Ukraine and subsequent actions have led to an increased desire for NATO membership among Ukrainians and a significant weakening of Russia. It is essential to question the assumption that Putin acts in the best interests of Russia.

    • Putin's actions not in Russia's best interestPutin's obsession with Ukraine and personal fantasies have led him to divert resources, potentially making future Russian leaders vassals of China, and launch a larger cyber war against the West, ignoring Russia's geopolitical consequences.

      Putin's actions towards the West and China do not align with the interests of Russia. Instead, Putin's "anti-Western turn" has created a situation where future Russian leaders may be forced to be vassals of China. This is evidenced by the troops diverted from the Russian-Chinese border to fight in Ukraine, allowing China to further strengthen its power relationship with Russia. A Russian leader who truly cared about geopolitics and Russian interests would have balanced between the West and Russia. However, Putin's obsession with Ukraine and his desire to leave a legacy have led him to commit state resources to his own fantasies, ignoring the geopolitical consequences. Additionally, Putin's actions extend beyond Ukraine, with a focus on launching a larger cyber war against Western democracies. These actions suggest that Putin is not acting in the best interests of Russia, but rather, is driven by personal fantasies and a desire for historical recognition.

    • Understanding the Complex Motivations Behind Positive Views of Authoritarian LeadersPeople hold positive views towards authoritarian leaders due to various reasons, including fascist beliefs, nihilism, or a desire to put national interests first. Some deny allegations of interference in democratic processes, influenced by propaganda that creates a politics of unreality.

      There are various reasons why people may hold positive views towards authoritarian leaders like Putin, and these reasons can range from holding fascist beliefs, nihilism, or a desire to put national interests first. Some people may deny the validity of allegations against Russia's interference in democratic processes, viewing it as a hoax or a lie. These beliefs can be influenced by propaganda that argues that things may seem bad in one's own country but are the same everywhere. This creates a politics of unreality and a loss of contact with moral imperatives. It's essential to understand these complex motivations to address the underlying issues effectively.

    • Putin's propaganda fuels uncertainty and doubt in democracy's valuePutin's propaganda creates a sense of nihilism, questioning democracy's value and ability to improve, while he uses nuclear blackmail to escalate tensions in Ukraine, leaving many questioning why more isn't being done to deescalate the situation.

      Putin's propaganda creates a sense of nihilism by portraying Russia and other countries, including the US and UK, as equally flawed. This mindset, which questions the value of democracy and the ability of states to improve, plays into Putin's hands as he doesn't need people to believe his false narratives, just to be in a state of uncertainty. Another concerning issue is the lack of action regarding the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, where Putin is using nuclear blackmail to escalate tensions. Despite it being a core American national interest, the US is not treaty-bound to defend Ukraine, leaving many questioning why more isn't being done to deescalate the situation. This uncertainty and lack of action play into Putin's hands, furthering his nihilistic agenda.

    • Polarized discourse on Ukraine and Russia risks dangerous consequencesAvoid labeling and silencing voices advocating for diplomacy or questioning current policies towards Russia to prevent dangerous escalation of tensions

      The current geopolitical situation regarding Ukraine and Russia has led to a polarized discourse, where any suggestion of compromise or understanding towards Russia is met with harsh criticism and labeling as pro-Putin. This narrows the scope of acceptable discourse and could potentially lead to dangerous consequences. For instance, voices advocating for diplomacy or questioning the effectiveness of current policies, such as NATO expansion or sanctions, are denounced and silenced. This dynamic risks escalating tensions and potentially leading to a larger conflict with Russia, a nuclear-armed power. It's crucial to have open and nuanced discussions about complex issues, especially those with potential for global consequences. We must avoid the temptation to label and silence those with differing viewpoints and instead engage in constructive dialogue to find solutions.

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    Contributors:

    David Knowles (Host). @DJKnowles22 on Twitter.

    Francis Dearnley (Assistant Comment Editor). @FrancisDearnley on Twitter.

    Dominic Nicholls (Associate Editor, Defence). @DomNicholls on Twitter.

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    With special thanks to Daniel Ridley, former Ukrainian Marine and founder of Trident Defence initiative, the largest foreign training organisation in Ukraine. (@TridentDefUKR on Twitter).

    Visit: https://tridentdefenseinitiative.com/


    To support our work, subscribe to The Telegraph: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest

    Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk


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    Watching Russia's "sad" victory day parade & understanding Moscow's wartime influence on Ukraine and the West

    Watching Russia's "sad" victory day parade & understanding Moscow's wartime influence on Ukraine and the West

    Day 799.

    Today,we bring you the latest news from Ukraine, discuss Russia’s Victory Day Parade in Moscow and we analyse Russia’s wartime influence inside Ukraine.


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    David Knowles (Head of Audio Development). @DJKnowles on X.

    Roland Oliphant (Senior Foreign Correspondent). @RolandOliphant on X.

    James Rothwell (Berlin Correspondent). @JamesERothwell on X. 

    Aliona Hlivco (Managing Director at Henry Jackson Society). @aliona_hlivco on X.


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    'Putin renews oath for fifth term with Russia under firm control' (BBC)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68964677


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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2024/putin-values-russian-society-conservatism/


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    https://www.audible.co.uk/podcast/Vladimir-Putins-war-against-Russia-interview-with-Evgenia-Kara-Murza/B0CPMKG9CR



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    Email: ukrainepod@telegraph.co.uk

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    Here's the News: My Reaction To BOMBSHELL Tucker & Putin Interview

    Here's the News: My Reaction To BOMBSHELL Tucker & Putin Interview

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    Fiona Hill on the War Putin Is Really Fighting

    Fiona Hill on the War Putin Is Really Fighting

    Vladimir Putin was looking for a swift invasion that would halt Ukraine’s drift toward the West, reveal NATO’s fractures and weaknesses and solidify Russia as a global power. In response, the West threatened moderate sanctions, but ultimately showed little interest in stepping between Russia and Ukraine.

    Then came the war, and everything changed. Russia’s invasion met with valiant Ukrainian resistance. President Volodymyr Zelensky became an international hero. NATO countries unified behind a truly punishing sanctions regime and significant military support. Russia’s attack strengthened Ukraine’s national identity — and its desire to join the European Union. A conflict that the U.S. and Europe were treating as purely strategic is now a conflict about the West’s most fundamental values.

    Much of this has felt hopeful, even inspiring, to those watching from the comfort of home. But it has the potential to unleash a truly terrifying spiral of escalation. Putin, feeling backed into a corner, has raised the stakes. Last week, he called the West’s sanctions akin to an act of war and has put Russia’s nuclear arsenal on alert. And the global wave of support for Ukraine has made it increasingly difficult for Western leaders to de-escalate. In the fog of war, it isn’t hard to imagine an accident or miscommunication that triggers a World War III-like scenario.

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    There are few people better positioned to answer those questions than Fiona Hill. Hill is a senior fellow in the Center on the United States and Europe at the Brookings Institution. She served as deputy assistant to the president and senior director for European and Russian affairs on the National Security Council under Donald Trump and as a national intelligence officer for Russia and Eurasian affairs under Barack Obama and George W. Bush. And she is the co-author of the influential Putin biography “Mr. Putin: Operative in the Kremlin.”

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    Book recommendations: 

    Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder

    Not One Inch by M.E. Sarotte

    The Limits of Partnership by Angela Stent

    Putin’s World by Angela Stent

    Russia Under the Old Regime by Richard Pipes

    The Formation of the Soviet Union by Richard Pipes

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.