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    Exclusive interview with Serhii Plokhy: Lessons from History

    enAugust 28, 2023

    Podcast Summary

    • Efficient Solutions for Business Tasks and Historical InsightsFind time-saving and cost-effective solutions for important business tasks like shopping and shipping with Blue Nile and Stamps.com. Learn from history to gain valuable insights and make informed decisions.

      For important business tasks, there are no-brainer solutions that can save time and resources. For instance, when it comes to finding the perfect Mother's Day gift from Blue Nile or handling mailing and shipping with Stamps.com, these services offer convenience, efficiency, and cost savings. In the case of Blue Nile, you can find beautiful jewelry with overnight shipping and enjoy free returns. With Stamps.com, you can seamlessly connect with major marketplaces, schedule package pickups, and get discounted shipping rates. Meanwhile, in historical contexts, understanding the past can provide valuable insights into current events. In the case of the Russo-Ukrainian War, historian Serhii Plokhii explains that the events of December 1991, when the Soviet Union dissolved, were a continuation of a longer story and a surprise to many observers. By learning from history, we can better understand the present and make informed decisions.

    • Historical Context of Ukrainian IdentityUkraine's historical development and national project differ from Russia's, leading to different political paths and ongoing conflicts

      The Ukrainian war can be seen as a continuation of imperial wars in Russian history, but looking at Ukrainian history and identity, key moments include the medieval Kievan Rus' empire, the mid-seventeenth century Cossack State, and the emergence of a modern Ukrainian National Project in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Despite facing similar political and economic challenges in the 1990s, Russia and Ukraine developed differently, with Russia becoming more authoritarian and Ukraine's democracy surviving. This is likely due to Ukraine's historical development and the ideologies behind its modern national project. Additionally, Ukrainian independence was first declared in 1991 and has since been challenged by Russia, most notably in 2014 and 2022. Understanding these historical and contemporary contexts is crucial for understanding the complexities of the Ukrainian situation.

    • Historical differences between Russia and UkraineRussia's autocratic rule contrasts Ukraine's democratic struggles post-Soviet Union, with the Orange Revolution intensifying tensions between the two and the West.

      The historical trajectories of Russia and Ukraine have led them down vastly different paths following the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia, having experienced a major defeat in the Cold War and economic turmoil, reverted to autocratic rule, while Ukraine, with its diverse regions and a national project opposed to the state, struggled to establish a democratic government. The Orange Revolution in 2004, where Ukrainians protested allegedly stolen elections backed by Russia, set Ukraine and Russia on a collision course with the West, eventually leading to tensions that escalated into conflicts in 2014 and 2022. The historical contexts and unique experiences of these two post-Soviet states have significantly shaped their political landscapes.

    • Orange Revolution posed a threat to Putin's regimeFear of democratic protests and geopolitical opportunities led Putin to view Ukraine's Orange Revolution as a dangerous precedent, ultimately setting Ukraine and Russia on different political paths.

      The Orange Revolution in Ukraine presented a significant threat to Russian President Vladimir Putin's regime. Putin saw Ukraine's democratic protests and the subsequent geopolitical opportunities it offered as a dangerous precedent for Russia, where people could challenge election results and potentially overthrow an authoritarian government. This fear was compounded by the fact that Ukraine remained democratic and was able to join European institutions, while Russia became increasingly authoritarian and was excluded from these opportunities. Additionally, the people involved in Ukrainian politics and civic society were markedly different from those in the post-Soviet era, leading to a distinct shift in perspectives and identities. These factors combined set Ukraine and Russia on vastly different paths, ultimately leading to their current political realities.

    • Generational differences and imperial ideology clash between Russia and UkraineOlder Russian leaders, including Putin, hold onto imperial ideology, viewing Ukraine as historical territory, while younger Ukrainian leaders, like Zelensky, have different experiences and ideologies, leading to ongoing tensions and conflicts

      The ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine are deeply rooted in generational differences and contrasting ideologies. The older Russian leadership, including Putin, who came to power during the fall of the Soviet Union, hold onto the imperial ideology and view Ukraine as part of Russia's historical territory. In contrast, the younger Ukrainian leadership, like Zelensky, grew up after the Soviet era and have little in common with Russian or Soviet experiences. This clash of generations and ideologies has played a significant role in shaping the political landscape and conflicts between the two nations. During the research and writing of the book, new discoveries were made about the motivations and beliefs of Putin and Zelensky. Putin's obsession with the Russian intellectuals of the imperial era and his attempts to use outdated imperial ideology to move forward into the 21st century were particularly revealing. This ideological clash between the two leaders has contributed to the ongoing tensions and conflicts between Russia and Ukraine.

    • Understanding the Differences Between Putin and ZelenskyPutin aims to expand Russian influence, Zelensky listens to the people, and debunking the myth of Ukrainian nationalism, no single nationalist party since 2014, recognizing Ukraine's political complexity, and acknowledging the generational and operational differences between Putin and Zelensky is vital for geopolitical understanding.

      The leaders of Russia and Ukraine, Putin and Zelensky, have vastly different approaches to politics and governance. Putin's goal is to expand Russian influence and control, while Zelensky listens to the needs of his people and reflects their attitudes. The persistent myth that Ukraine is a hotbed of radical nationalism is not supported by the facts. There is no single nationalist party in the Ukrainian parliament since 2014. It's crucial to challenge misconceptions about Ukraine and recognize the complexity of its political landscape. Both Putin and Zelensky represent different generations and modes of operation, with distinct ideas driving them. Understanding these differences is essential for navigating the geopolitical dynamics between Russia and Ukraine.

    • Signs of increased unity and solidarity in Ukraine since the start of the warUkraine's political landscape and cultural sphere have shown signs of increased unity and solidarity since the start of the war, with presidential elections producing unified results and a rise in the popularity of white books, as well as local government reforms making Ukraine more governable and effective.

      The focus on nationalism and corruption in understanding the Ukrainian crisis may have overshadowed other important aspects of the situation. Ukraine, despite being in a long-standing conflict and allegedly corrupt, has shown signs of increased unity and solidarity among its people and government since the start of the war in 2014. This unity can be seen in the political landscape, with presidential elections producing different candidates but unified results, and in the cultural sphere, with a rise in the popularity of white books and a shift towards a more unified political map. Additionally, the reform of local government has made Ukraine more governable and given local authorities more power, making them effective representatives of the state in the eyes of their constituents. These indications suggest that Ukraine may emerge from the war more unified and certain of its identity than ever before.

    • Mayors' role in Ukrainian resistanceMayors bravely resisted Russian invasion, emphasizing the importance of democratic institutions and accountable leadership, while European powers' attempts for peace were ineffective due to a misunderstanding of Putin's intentions, echoing past mistakes of appeasement.

      The mayors of Ukrainian cities played a pivotal role in the early resistance against Russian invasion, despite facing kidnapping, torture, and even death. Their unwavering commitment to democratic institutions served as a powerful symbol for the Ukrainian people, emphasizing the importance of electing and holding accountable their representatives. However, the European powers' attempts to find a peaceful settlement with Russia were fruitless due to a misunderstanding of Putin's administration and its aggressive intentions. This misjudgment can be compared to the policy of appeasement towards Nazi Germany in the past, with potentially disastrous consequences. As a historian, I find this comparison both enlightening and alarming due to the striking parallels between the two situations.

    • The rise of nationalism and authoritarian regimes in historical contextThe desire to reunite a divided nation and regain lost power can lead to the rise of nationalism and authoritarian regimes, as seen in Germany and Russia. However, attempts to create a multipolar world can lead to renewed bipolarity and global instability.

      The parallels between historical periods, such as the Great Depression in the 1930s and the aftermath of the Great Recession, can lead to the rise of nationalism, populism, and authoritarian regimes. The discussion specifically referenced the cases of Germany and Russia, both of which dealt with the question of a divided nation and sought to regain lost territory. The annexation of Crimea by Russia and the Anschluss of Austria by Germany are striking parallels. Putin's Russia, like Nazi Germany, was driven by a desire to reunite its people and regain lost power. However, instead of creating a multipolar world as intended, the Russo-Ukrainian war has led to a renewed bipolar world with the US and China as dominant global superpowers. Russia's invasion of Ukraine dismantled its power, particularly in military terms. The failure of Putin's plan to create a multipolar world highlights the importance of learning from history to prevent repeating past mistakes.

    • Impact of Russia-Ukraine War on Geopolitical LandscapeRussia's economy weakens under sanctions, international standing low; West strengthens alliance, becoming a stronger entity; Russia moves closer to China; Bipolar world emerging, US-China relationship a major focus; Human cost of conflict underscored by individual stories of young volunteers

      The Russia-Ukraine war has significantly impacted the geopolitical landscape, with Russia's economy weaker than expected under sanctions and its international standing at an all-time low. Meanwhile, the West, particularly the United States and Europe, have strengthened their alliance, making the West a much stronger entity on the international stage. Russia, in response, is moving closer to China. The war has also increased the likelihood of a bipolar world, with the US-China relationship becoming a major focus. Individual stories of young volunteers risking their lives in the conflict serve as a poignant reminder of the human cost of the conflict. The future course of China's position remains uncertain, making it a significant unknown in the outcome of the war.

    • Putin's Legacy: A Mixed Bag of Conflict and ControlDespite Putin's aspirations to rebuild Russian power, his initiatives have led to conflict and suffering, potentially leaving a negative legacy in history

      Vladimir Putin's legacy may be remembered negatively by historians due to his initiatives that have been damaging for Russia and other countries, despite his aspirations to rebuild Russian great power status. Oleshearenko discussed how Putin's motivations included a focus on legacy and control over certain territories, but these actions have led to conflict and suffering instead. The author hopes that his book will help readers navigate the complex news landscape and make sense of current events related to Ukraine and Russia. Additionally, listeners can access Ukraine the Latest podcast for in-depth analysis and insights from award-winning foreign correspondents.

    • Prioritizing safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing while delivering high-quality productsQuince offers luxury items at affordable prices with free shipping and 365-day returns, while 1800 Flowers puts love and care into every product for special occasions

      Quince and 1800 Flowers prioritize safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing while offering high-quality products. Quince provides luxury items without the luxury price tag, and they offer free shipping and 365-day returns. 1800 Flowers goes beyond being just a gift-giving destination; they put love and care into every product from their farmers, bakers, florists, and makers to ensure they deliver smiles. Both companies value the importance of their customers and strive to make every occasion special. To learn more about Quince's upgrades and 1800 Flowers' mission, visit quince.com/upgrade and 1800flowers.com/acast, respectively.

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    Timothy Snyder on the Myths That Blinded the West to Putin’s Plans

    “Americans and Europeans were guided through the new century by a tale about ‘the end of history,’ by what I will call the politics of inevitability, a sense that the future is just more of the present, that the laws of progress are known, that there are no alternatives, and therefore nothing really to be done,” writes the Yale historian Timothy Snyder in his 2018 book, “The Road to Unfreedom.”

    The central thesis of “The Road to Unfreedom” is that different understandings of the past, its myths, histories and memories create radically different politics. Snyder wrote the book as a way of understanding Vladimir Putin’s 2014 invasion of Crimea and the West’s response, but its argument has become only more salient in recent weeks. You can’t understand Putin’s recent invasion of Ukraine without understanding his metaphysical attachment to the era of empire, his mythological telling of Russian-Ukrainian history, and his semi-mystical construction of what constitutes the Russian nation.

    But Snyder’s more radical argument is that the West is also operating under its own mythological understanding of time — one that is so deeply ingrained in our collective psyche that it masquerades as common sense. And that understanding the influence of the “politics of inevitability” is essential to make sense of everything from the West’s misreading of Putin’s motivations to the internal fracturing of the European Union to the decline of liberal democracy across the globe.

    So that’s where we start: with the central myths at the heart of the modern Western project — and the blind spots they have created. But Snyder is also a renowned historian of European great-power conflict who has written six books entirely or partly about Ukraine. So we also discuss the chasm between the radicalness of European integration and the tedium of European governance, why Snyder thinks Putin’s invasion is fundamentally the product of a Russian identity crisis, Ukraine’s unique history as a battleground for a great-power war, how Ukrainian identity transcends ethnicity and language, why Western leaders and analysts consistently fail to decipher Putin’s intentions, the huge difference between a Russian nation premised on myth and a Ukrainian nation forged by collective action, how Ukrainian resistance could inspire a Western vision for the future and more.

    Mentioned:

    Bloodlands by Timothy Snyder

    "On the History Unity of Russians and Ukrainians” by Vladimir Putin

    Book recommendations:

    Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev

    The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt

    The Gates of Europe by Serhii Plokhy

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

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