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    Timothy Snyder on the Myths That Blinded the West to Putin’s Plans

    enMarch 15, 2022

    Podcast Summary

    • Historical narratives shape politicsUnderstanding different historical narratives is crucial for navigating complex geopolitical situations and avoiding crises.

      Historian Timothy Snyder argues that different understandings of the past, including myths, histories, and memories, shape politics in significant ways. He specifically warns against the politics of inevitability, which holds that some external force guarantees the desired outcomes and creates a false sense of predictability. This perspective, prevalent after the end of Communism in 1989, contributed to the belief that capitalism would inevitably bring about democracy and freedom. However, this belief overlooked the fact that not everyone shares the same perspective on progress and rationality, as evidenced by Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Understanding the stories and narratives that shape our perceptions of history is crucial for navigating complex geopolitical situations and avoiding crises.

    • The politics of inevitability and its limitationsAssuming progress is inevitable and markets will bring a better world can oversimplify complex situations, overlook values, and limit productive conversations about global affairs.

      The politics of inevitability can lead us to simplify complex global situations, disregard contradictory facts, and forget about the importance of values. This mindset, which has been prevalent for the last 30 years, assumes that progress is inevitable and that markets will automatically bring about a better world. However, this perspective can be limiting and even misguiding. For instance, it can cause us to overlook the importance of different values and the actions of leaders who prioritize them. Furthermore, the politics of inevitability has manifested differently in the US and Europe, with the US seeing the world moving towards capitalism and markets, while Europe has had a different assumption. Understanding the nuances of these different perspectives can help us engage in more nuanced and productive conversations about global affairs.

    • The assumption that economies define history can lead to misunderstandingsEconomic success doesn't guarantee stability or peace. Consider political and social issues for a more accurate understanding of global events.

      The belief in inevitable progress driven by economic calculations can lead to misunderstandings and misjudgments of global events. This was discussed in relation to the US and Russia, where the assumption that economies define history can blind us to other important factors such as political instability, inequality, and the role of propaganda and military power. The European story of inevitability was also debunked as a false narrative, as it overlooked the true reasons for European integration and the ongoing struggles of failing empires. Ultimately, it's crucial to remember that economic success does not guarantee stability or peace, and that other factors, such as political and social issues, must be considered to gain a more accurate understanding of global events.

    • Belief that ideas don't matter leads to promotion of bad ideasThe dominance of algorithms and inequality stifle intellectual exploration, leading to promotion of bad ideas without defensibility, hindering progress and shaping of the future.

      While we may not be entirely dismissing the importance of ideas, we have been believing in and promoting a multitude of bad ideas that lack defensibility. This phenomenon can be attributed to several structural factors, including the increasing dominance of algorithms that prioritize functionality over values, and the pervasive inequality that stifles meaningful conversations and intellectual exploration. Ultimately, the belief that ideas do not matter excuses us from engaging with the future and taking action based on values and creative ideas, which are essential for shaping an uncertain and unpredictable future.

    • The exhaustion of implementing ideas for extended periods can make us overlook their significanceExhaustion from prolonged implementation can limit our ability to imagine and pursue new ideas, overlooking the potential benefits and significance of past achievements

      Our inability to imagine different futures may be a result of both fear and the exhaustion of successfully implementing ideas for extended periods. The European Union, as an example, started as an inspiring concept after World War II but has become dull and bureaucratic due to its prolonged implementation. This exhaustion leads to a conflict between ideas and societies that have spent a long time implementing them, making the European Union's novelty and significance often overlooked. People tend to take things for granted once they've been achieved, and the European Union's interesting aspects, such as its novel approach to post-imperial issues and the benefits it brings to its member states, are often overlooked due to this exhaustion. The fear of the future and the tedium of implementation can limit our ability to imagine and pursue new ideas, creating a chasm between the potential and the reality of our societies.

    • Ukraine's Role in World War 2 and Its Historical NarrativesUkraine's history in World War 2 is pivotal to understanding its geopolitical situation today. Both Russia and Ukraine claim central roles in the conflict, shaping contemporary narratives and relations.

      Ukraine's relationship with Europe and its understanding of historical events, particularly the Second World War, significantly influence its current geopolitical situation. Putin presents the Second World War as justifying Russian innocence and European guilt, while Ukrainians see themselves as equal sufferers. Ukraine's central role in World War 2 is often overlooked in Western narratives, but it was a crucial battleground for colonial ambitions, with both Stalin and Hitler seeking control over its rich resources and fertile soil. This history continues to shape Ukraine's role in contemporary geopolitics and its complex relationship with Russia.

    • Putin's historical and philosophical beliefs about Ukraine's strategic importanceDespite historical evidence, Putin believes in an underlying unity between Russia and Ukraine, justifying destruction of contradictory facts and contributing to Ukraine conflict

      Russian President Vladimir Putin's perception of Ukraine's strategic importance to Russia is deeply rooted in historical and philosophical beliefs. Putin has rehabilitated certain philosophers who view Ukraine as having a mystical relationship to Russia. Historically, the connection between Ukraine and Russia is tenuous, but Putin sees their past as a fragmented unity, which he believes can be restored. He dismisses anything that contradicts this vision as artificial and insists that Ukrainians ultimately want to be part of Russia. This belief in an underlying unity, despite historical evidence to the contrary, has political implications, as it justifies the destruction of facts that contradict Putin's vision. Putin's ideas, while seemingly abstract, have real-world consequences and have contributed to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

    • Putin's cosmology: A belief in a broken world and the need for decisive actionPutin's worldview is rooted in the belief that the world is a spoiled place, requiring a strong, charismatic leader and a unified Russia to heal and bring unity, contrasting with liberal traditions emphasizing empathy and compromise.

      Vladimir Putin's cosmology, as influenced by philosophers like Ivan Ilyin, is rooted in a belief that the world is a spoiled place left behind by God, and the only way to heal and bring unity is through a strong, charismatic leader and a unified Russia. This perspective contrasts sharply with liberal traditions, such as John Rawls, which emphasize empathy and taking other people's perspectives into account. Putin's philosophy begins from the premise that the world is broken, and the solution is not dialogue or compromise, but decisive action and unity. Understanding this worldview is crucial for interpreting Putin's actions on the global stage.

    • Beyond traditional geopolitics: Understanding Ukraine's complex historical context and national identityThe Ukrainian response to the current crisis with Russia is more focused on future action than on simplistic narratives of the past, reflecting the complex realities of Ukrainian nationhood and the need to move beyond outdated geopolitical frameworks.

      The current geopolitical tensions between Russia and Ukraine cannot be fully understood through a traditional geopolitical lens. Instead, it's essential to recognize the complex historical context and the evolving national identity of Ukraine. Unlike the simplistic and homogenizing narratives that have fueled conflicts in the past, the Ukrainian response to the current crisis is more focused on action towards the future. The Ukrainian people are engaged in various ways, from fighting on the frontlines to working in civil society organizations and sharing resources. This dynamic and adaptive approach to nationhood offers a more promising path towards peace and stability in the region. It's crucial to move beyond outdated geopolitical frameworks and embrace a more nuanced understanding of the complex realities shaping the world today.

    • Ukrainian identity shaped through daily practices during Maidan RevolutionUkrainians asserted their existence through peaceful protests during Maidan Revolution, demonstrating unity, resistance, and bilingual culture, contrasting Putin's monolithic Russian identity narrative.

      Ukrainian identity is shaped by a collective commitment to asserting their existence through daily practices, rather than relying on physical symbols or historical artifacts. This was exemplified during the Maidan Revolution in 2013, where Ukrainians came together peacefully to protest against their president's decision to abandon European integration. When violence ensued, they stayed and resisted, demonstrating their resolve to challenge extreme inequality and resist foreign interference. The Maidan protests were a transformative experience for many Ukrainians, providing a sense of unity and safety in the face of fear. Despite language differences, Ukrainians embraced a bilingual culture, rejecting the notion of cultural homogeneity. This practice of democracy as a daily commitment contrasts with Putin's narrative and myth of a monolithic Russian identity.

    • Putin's actions fuel Ukrainian identity shiftPutin's efforts to spread Russian influence in Ukraine have backfired, leading to a stronger Ukrainian identity among its people.

      Putin's attempts to spread Russian influence in Ukraine through the use of language and ethnic nationalism have had the opposite effect. Instead of unifying Ukrainians under the Russian banner, Putin's actions have fueled a shift towards Ukrainian identity. This is evident in the increasing preference for the Ukrainian language among young people, which Putin sees as a threat and labels as genocide. However, it is Putin's own invasions and occupations that have accelerated this trend. The paradox is that Putin's actions, which he believes will preserve the Russian language and identity, are actually contributing to their erosion. This highlights the disconnect between Putin's mystical vision of reality and the lived experiences of the people in Ukraine. Ultimately, Putin's war on Ukraine has led to more Ukrainianization than any Ukrainian policy ever could.

    • Ukraine conflict: Beyond language and national identityThe Ukrainian identity is shaped by actions and unity, not just language or opposition to Russia.

      The ongoing conflict in Ukraine is not just about language or national identity opposition to Russia, but more about the actions and common cause that unite the Ukrainian people. Putin's speeches about Ukraine reveal more about the uncertainty and potential identity crisis in Russian society. Russia's need to claim Ukraine as part of its identity might indicate deeper issues with self-perception and living in the world. The survival and strength of Ukrainian identity lie in its actions and presence in the lives of people, rather than linguistic practices. The identity being formed in Ukraine is about staying, helping one another, and having a common cause, which will be remembered long after the war ends.

    • Russia's Identity Crisis: A Political Problem for the WorldRussia's political instability and lack of clear definition contribute to an identity crisis, leading the Russian state to resort to spectacles, wars, and disorienting historical rhetoric to unify the nation

      Russia's identity crisis is not just a psychological issue for individuals or Russian society, but a political problem for the world. The Russian state's inability to implement effective domestic policy due to its oligarchic control and lack of rule of law leaves only rhetoric, spectacles, and wars as means to unify and define the nation. Putin's construction of Russian history in his speeches and articles on Ukraine is intentionally disorienting, focusing on irrelevant historical details rather than addressing the present. This identity crisis, rooted in political instability and a lack of clear definition, poses a significant challenge for understanding and engaging with Russia on the global stage.

    • Putin's deep-rooted belief in Russian-Ukrainian unityPutin's essay reveals a strong belief in Russian-Ukrainian unity, despite lack of logical arguments, and Europe could offer Ukraine membership negotiations as a potential solution

      Russian President Vladimir Putin's actions and speeches, particularly in his July 2021 essay on historical unity between Russia and Ukraine, reveal a deep-rooted belief in the unity of the two nations, despite a lack of logical or convincing arguments. Putin's mode of delivery and tone convey a sense of faux assurance and a desperate effort to convince himself and others of this belief. This belief, which can't be fully explained but can be acted upon, is rooted in a desire to cut through confusion and undo fragmentation. The West, specifically the US and Europe, have been shocked out of their politics of inevitability regarding Russia, but it's unclear what their vision or long-term actions will be. One possible step for the Europeans is to offer membership negotiations to Ukraine as a meaningful goal for the future, which could help end the war and provide Ukrainians with hope.

    • Learning from History and Looking ForwardThe ongoing Russia-Ukraine conflict highlights the importance of learning from history while also focusing on future solutions, such as energy independence and democratic politics, to prevent potential catastrophes.

      The ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine serves as a reminder that we must learn from history but also look forward to the future. Putin's distortion of historical events during the 2nd World War highlights the need for a new reference point, potentially the current crisis itself. The humble and effective response from the United States, particularly in terms of energy independence, offers a lesson for the future. This war underscores the potential catastrophe of continued reliance on fossil fuels and the importance of democratic politics focused on the future. The courage and resilience of Ukrainians have bought us time to think creatively about alternative ways forward.

    • Expanding perspectives on global politicsExplore books by Pomerantsev, Arendt, Plokhy, and Snyder for insights on Russia, Ukraine, and complex global politics.

      The current crisis has the potential to expand our perspectives and restructure the way we think about global politics. As Americans, Europeans, and members of the transatlantic community, we have an opportunity to think more deeply about the complex dynamics of politics, particularly in relation to Russia and Ukraine. To better understand these ideas, Peter Pomerantsev's books, "Nothing is True and Everything is Possible," and Hannah Arendt's "Origins of Totalitarianism," are recommended. Additionally, Serhii Plokhy's "Gates of Europe" provides valuable historical context, while Tim Snyder's "The Road to Unfreedom" offers a terrifyingly relevant perspective on the current state of politics. By engaging with these works, we can gain a deeper understanding of the past and present, and navigate the complexities of the global political landscape.

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    The Precision of Infinity” by Jlin and Philip Glass

    Holly+

    Book Recommendations:

    Intelligence and Spirit by Reza Negarestani

    Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky

    Plurality by E. Glen Weyl, Audrey Tang and ⿻ Community

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Jack Hamilton.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 24, 2024

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    A Conservative Futurist and a Supply-Side Liberal Walk Into a Podcast …

    “The Jetsons” premiered in 1962. And based on the internal math of the show, George Jetson, the dad, was born in 2022. He’d be a toddler right now. And we are so far away from the world that show imagined. There were a lot of future-trippers in the 1960s, and most of them would be pretty disappointed by how that future turned out.

    So what happened? Why didn’t we build that future?

    The answer, I think, lies in the 1970s. I’ve been spending a lot of time studying that decade in my work, trying to understand why America is so bad at building today. And James Pethokoukis has also spent a lot of time looking at the 1970s, in his work trying to understand why America is less innovative today than it was in the postwar decades. So Pethokoukis and I are asking similar questions, and circling the same time period, but from very different ideological vantages.

    Pethokoukis is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book “The Conservative Futurist: How to Create the Sci-Fi World We Were Promised.” He also writes a newsletter called Faster, Please! “The two screamingly obvious things that we stopped doing is we stopped spending on science, research and development the way we did in the 1960s,” he tells me, “and we began to regulate our economy as if regulation would have no impact on innovation.”

    In this conversation, we debate why the ’70s were such an inflection point; whether this slowdown phenomenon is just something that happens as countries get wealthier; and what the government’s role should be in supporting and regulating emerging technologies like A.I.

    Mentioned:

    U.S. Infrastructure: 1929-2017” by Ray C. Fair

    Book Recommendations

    Why Information Grows by Cesar Hidalgo

    The Expanse series by James S.A. Corey

    The American Dream Is Not Dead by Michael R. Strain

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 21, 2024

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The Disastrous Relationship Between Israel, Palestinians and the U.N.

    The international legal system was created to prevent the atrocities of World War II from happening again. The United Nations partitioned historic Palestine to create the states of Israel and Palestine, but also left Palestinians with decades of false promises. The war in Gaza — and countless other conflicts, including those in Syria, Yemen and Ethiopia — shows how little power the U.N. and international law have to protect civilians in wartime. So what is international law actually for?

    Aslı Ü. Bâli is a professor at Yale Law School who specializes in international and comparative law. “The fact that people break the law and sometimes get away with it doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist and doesn’t have force,” she argues.

    In this conversation, Bâli traces the gap between how international law is written on paper and the realpolitik of how countries decide to follow it, the U.N.’s unique role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict from its very beginning, how the laws of war have failed Gazans but may be starting to change the conflict’s course, and more.

    Mentioned:

    With Schools in Ruins, Education in Gaza Will Be Hobbled for Years” by Liam Stack and Bilal Shbair

    Book Recommendations:

    Imperialism, Sovereignty and the Making of International Law by Antony Anghie

    Justice for Some by Noura Erakat

    Worldmaking After Empire by Adom Getachew

    The Constitutional Bind by Aziz Rana

    The United Nations and the Question of Palestine by Ardi Imseis

    Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

    You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

    This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud.

    The Ezra Klein Show
    enMay 17, 2024

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